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Bullet Train to the Rescue

2025-11-26T04:49:43Z

JustACollector: /* Trivia */

{{episode|
|series=RiD
|ep=3
|title="Bullet Train to the Rescue"
|japanese=合体せよ! 新幹線ロボ
|romaji=Gattai seyo! Shinkansen Robo
|translation=Unite! Bullet Train Robo
|image=Bullet Train Rescue Bullettrains.jpg
|caption=It's pink, so it's a girl, right?
|production code=
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]], [[Studio Gallop]]
|written by=[[Yukiyoshi Ōhashi]] (Japanese) [[Steve Kramer]] (English)
|director=[[Akira Katō]]
|animation studio=Studio Gallop
|airdate=[[April 19]], [[2000]] (Japanese) [[September 11]], [[2001]] (English, limited markets) [[September 12]], 2001 (English)
|continuity=
}}

'''Railspike, (the gruff train)''' 
'''Midnight Express (fancy train)''' 
'''Rapid Run, (cool train)'''

==Synopsis==
[[Gas Skunk]] destroys an unmanned freight train and is promptly told by [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] that he's wasting his time and should be searching for energy. [[Slapper (RID)|Slapper]] also takes out an unmanned freight train and is given the same lecture by the shark.

[[File:Bullet Train Rescue Dutton Linear RFG.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Don't tell me the batteries died again!]]
The [[Autobot]]s watch a news report of the launch of the [[Linear RFG]], an automated train set to make its first run today. [[Koji Onishi|Koji]] is excited to be able to ride on the train, but [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Prime]], aware of the recent railroad incidents, keeps a watchful eye. He brings the three [[Autobot Brothers|Autobot brothers]], planning on following the train in case the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] try some shenanigans.

As anticipated, the Predacons are up to their regular hijinks and plant a [[pulsar bomb]] to sabotage the train's track where the tracks cross over a bridge. [[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]] and [[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]] engage the Predacons, while Prime radios the train's command center in hopes of halting the train before it reaches the scene of the battle. But because of [[Dark Scream]]'s meddling, communication with the train is shut off. To save the day, the Autobots need to call on the help of [[Team Bullet Train]].

[[File:Bullet Train Rescue Bridgeexplode.jpg|right|upright=1.1|thumb|Improper usage of demolitions!]]
[[T-AI]] radios the three members of the team. Each of them abandons his human passengers (Much to [[Kelly (RID)|Kelly]]'s annoyance, as [[Rapid Run (RID)|Rapid Run]] disrupts her commute to work) and rushes across the space bridge to meet with Optimus and the Linear RFG. Prime leaves the three to their own affairs so he can assist in fighting off the Predacons planting a bomb on the track ahead. Team Bullet Train radios Koji and asks him to request that the driver use the manual override to slow down the train, but the brakes aren't working and the train is speeding up, scaring the passengers. With the easy solution unavailable, [[Midnight Express (RID)|Midnight Express]] has the brilliant idea of coating the track with glue! [[Railspike (RID)|Railspike]] has a better solution, however: slow the train down by linking up with it.

[[File:Bullet Train Rescue Optimusrailracer.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Their secret handshake took [[Units of time|vorns]] to perfect.]]
Ahead, the bomb explodes, taking out the bridge. The Predacons withdraw from the conflict, standing back to watch the anticipated carnage and leaving the Autobots to deal with the oncoming train. The Linear RFG rolls towards the gap, despite the additional weight of the three Bullet Trains trying to anchor it. So Optimus converts into his super mode and attempts literally to catch the trains to block them from derailing. Prime is successful, and the train comes to a stop before anything goes into the chasm. Sky-Byte tries one last chance to ruin the day, but Side Burn wrecks Sky-Byte's footing and aim.

Finally [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]] arrives and begins battling the Autobots. Team Bullet Train returns, having moved the Linear RFG safely away from the destroyed bridge, and combine into [[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]]. Overpowered by the force of Rail Racer's attacks, Megatron flees with his troops in tow. The menace defeated, Team Bullet Train gets back to work, and the Linear RFG completes its inaugural run watched over by Optimus.
{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] (6)
*[[T-AI]] (7)
*[[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]] (8)
*[[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]] (9)
*[[X-Brawn]] (10)
*[[Railspike (RID)|Railspike]] (12)
*[[Rapid Run (RID)|Rapid Run]] (13)
*[[Midnight Express (RID)|Midnight Express]] (15)
*[[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]] (17)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]
|c2=
*[[Gas Skunk]] (1)
*[[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] (2)
*[[Slapper (RID)|Slapper]] (3)
*[[Dark Scream]] (11)
*[[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]] (16)

|c3=
*[[Dorie Dutton]] (4)
*[[Koji Onishi]] (5)
*[[Kelly (RID)|Kelly]] (14)
}}

==Quotes==
"There's nothing going on here that would concern you."
:—'''Gas Skunk''' attempts the [[wikia:starwars:Mind trick|Jedi mind trick]] on [[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]].

"How about coating the entire track with glue! That would slow it up." 
"Dude, I'm gonna pretend you didn't say that."
:—'''Midnight Express''' fails to impress '''Rapid Run''' with his problem-solving abilities.

"Don't you even bother to say hello anymore?"
:—'''Optimus''' is disappointed at Megatron's lack of social graces.

'''Side Burn:''' Wow, how come we can't do that? 
'''Prowl:''' I don't know, I think they're double-jointed. 
'''Side Burn:''' Maybe they can teach us how to do that. 
'''X-Brawn:''' I was never a good student. 
'''Side Burn:''' Come to think of it, I wouldn't want to fuse with you guys anyway.
:—The '''Autobot Brothers''', after watching Team Bullet Train combine into Rail Racer.

==Notes==
===Differences with ''Car Robots''===
[[File:Rid ep3 deleted shots.jpg|right|thumb]]
*In ''Car Robots'', Sky-Byte berates Slapper for attacking an empty train because it does nothing to show humanity the Predacons' ruthlessness. In ''Robots in Disguise'', he considers it a waste of time that's keeping him from searching for [[energon]]. This change leads into a general alteration to the plot of the episode: in ''Robots in Disguise'', Sky-Byte wants to steal energy from the Linear RFG, while in ''Car Robots'', he simply wants to destroy the train to prove the Predacons' power to mankind.
*''Car Robots'' specifically notes that Koji was able to get on the Linear RFG thanks to the influence of one of his father's friends.
*''Car Robots'' has Optimus access the space bridge to keep up with the speed of the Linear RFG, whereas ''Robots in Disguise'' has him claiming that he needs to return to base to monitor the situation from there (which [[Bullet Train to the Rescue#Continuity errors|he ''doesn't'' seem to do since he's next seen still running alongside the train]]).
*''Robots in Disguise'' cuts out a shot of a distressed engineer (pictured) reacting to Railspike's decision to go off on his own.
*As they arrive to join Optimus Prime, ''Robots in Disguise'' has Railspike and Rapid Run discuss the urgency of the mission. ''Car Robots'', meanwhile, has Railspike criticize Rapid Run for disregarding the priority of their passengers' safety.
*Where ''Robots in Disguise'' has Midnight Express simply comment on the time-saving nature of the Global Space Bridge, ''Car Robots'' has him bring up one of the characteristics from his Japanese toy [[bio]], a preference for driving through cold areas. As Rapid Run points out, this fondness for the cold is the reason for his perspiration when he arrives late to join his team-mates in warmer climates; in ''Robots in Disguise'', it's just plain old exertion.
*In ''Car Robots'', Railspike wants to alert the passengers on board the Liner RFG to the situation, but in ''Robots in Disguise'', he ''doesn't'' want to let them know.
*On discussing how to stop the Linear RFG, ''Car Robots'' has Midnight Express suggest using a big cushion, where ''Robots in Disguise'' has him propose coating the track with glue.
*After Rapid Run gets in front of the Linear RFG, ''Robots in Disguise'' cuts out a shot of Railspike and Midnight Express moving behind it.
*A still reaction shot of Prowl (pictured) watching as the Linear RFG is about to slam into Prime is cut from ''Robots in Disguise''.
[[File:Rid ep3 blizzardstorm vs opticallaserstrike.jpg|right|thumb|275px]]
*In ''Car Robots'', Optimus Prime uses his Blizzard Storm attack to explode the cliff out from under the Predacons. As this is done only through a pretty bizarre-looking shot of something that is not readily apparent as a jet of water shooting across the screen (pictured; Prime is shown with his cannon deployed after the cliff has exploded to explain the visual), coupled with the general oddness of water exploding a cliff, ''Robots in Disguise'' does away with it, and inserts some footage of Side Burn performing an "Optical Laser Strike" attack instead. This "attack" is actually a clip taken from the end of his transformation [[stock footage]] (also pictured), which features a flare of red energy erupting from his eyes and running across his visor.
*Scenes extended in ''Robots in Disguise'' by looped and repeated footage include:
**Slapper's dialogue just before he attacks the train
**Various bits of conversation between Prime, Koji and the Autobot Brothers in the Autobots
**Prowl's argument with Slapper and Gas Skunk
**Prime's conversation with the train technicians
**T-AI's selection of Team Bullet Train
**Railspike and Rapid Run's discussion about the Linear RFG
**Koji's discussion with Railspike
**Prime announcing that he must do something, before transforming into Super Mode
**Rapid Run requesting that they be allowed to move the Linear RFG back to a safe distance
**Prime's threat to the Predacons, and Sky-Byte's response

===Animation or technical errors===
[[File:BulletTrainRescue Sky-Byte's mouth.jpg|thumb|right|The only time Sky-Byte has ever been this terrifying]]
*When Sky-Byte gloats that the train is doomed, his mouth is drawn with a mouth interior behind it rather than the usual all-white.

===Continuity errors===
*While following alongside the train, Optimus says he'd "better get back to headquarters", but the next time we cut to him, he's still with the train.

===Trivia===
*The combined form of [[Team Bullet Train]], [[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]], refers to himself in the plural.
*The humans seem to be quite familiar with Optimus Prime and who he is.
*It would appear that this episode was originally to be titled "Bullet Train Rescue", as this was the title offered by various sources before the episode aired. The error has not entirely gone away, as this title was used on the R2 DVD menus. That said, it might have been ''better'' if this title had been used, since the [[Spychangers to the Rescue|very next episode]] has a title that is almost exactly the same. This would not be the [[The Test (episode)|last time]] this [[The Fish Test|would happen]] in ''Robots in Disguise''.
*The animators did not put terribly much effort into making Team Bullet Train's coaches match the driving cars. Railspike and Rapid Run's coaches are an undecorated off-white. Midnight Express' coaches make an attempt to match his livery, but still stand out sharply since they're single-level.
*Rail Racer's "Super Turbo Punch!" consists of ''punching his opponent in the face''. Awesome!
*In some markets which aired cartoons in the morning rather than in the afternoon, this episode premiered on September 11, 2001. If that doesn't seem very significant, look at the date and the subject matter of the episode, and let it sink in...
*In Japan, this was the first episode to air after the premiere of the ''Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters'' anime on TV Tokyo Channel 12, which would have its first season produced around the same time as this show.
** Coincidentally, both series were animated by Studio GALLOP.

===Foreign localization===
'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Scambio pericoloso'''" ("Dangerous exchange")

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''O Resgate do Trem-Bala'''" ("The Bullet Train Rescue")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Transformers: Car Robots'' — Vol. 1 ([[Pony Canyon]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2004 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Volume One ([[Maximum Entertainment]]) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2004 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Three-Disc Box Set: Part 1 of 2 (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Battle Protocol (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Special Edition 2-Disc Set (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise / RoboCop: The Animated Series / M.A.S.K.'' (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Season One (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Ultimate Collection (Maximum Entertainment)

==External links==
*[http://www.ridforever.info/episode-transcripts/rid-episode-03-bullet-train-to-the-rescue "Bullet Train to the Rescue" transcript on RiDForever.info]

[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2001) episodes]]

A Test of Metal

2025-11-26T04:48:58Z

JustACollector: /* Trivia */

{{episode
|otherseries=''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 cartoon)|Transformers: Robots in Disguise]]'' ep 23
|prev=Sky-Byte Saves the Day
|next=Ultra Magnus (episode)
|otherseries2=Chronological order
|prev2=Lessons of the Past
|title="A Test of Metal"
|japanese=狙われたビルドマスター
|romaji=Nerawareta Buildmaster
|translation=Targeted Buildmasters
|image=Test of Metal Armourhidestomp.jpg
|caption=Is it possible to enjoy yourself ''too'' much?
|production code=
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]], [[Studio Gallop]]
|written by=[[Kazuhiko Gōdo]] (Japanese) [[Richard Epcar]] (English)
|director=[[Yoshiaki Tsutsui]]
|animation studio=Studio Gallop
|airdate=[[September 6|6 September]] [[2000]] (Japanese) [[September 29]], [[2001]] (English)
|continuity=
}}
'''Build Team foils a heist''' 
'''Commandos are poor losers''' 
'''Oil's well that ends well'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Test of Metal Ruinationrailracerwedge.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Optimus is missing the show.]]
The [[Commando (RID)|Commandos]] have stolen some energy from the East Power Station, and [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] sends [[Team Bullet Train]] to stop them. While fighting with [[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]], [[Ruination (RID)|Ruination]] doesn't notice that the [[Build Team (RID)|Build Team]] is taking the energy. In a lull in the action, Rail Racer and the Build Team escape through the [[Global Space Bridge]]. After being chewed out by [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]], the Commandos become frustrated that the [[Autobot]]s can use the Space Bridge as an escape route and make disabling the Space Bridge a priority. They decide that destroying the Build Team is the only way to disable the Space Bridge for good.

[[File:Test of Metal Optimuswedge.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|T-AI, call me when there's a better show on.]]
In order to flush out the Build Team, the Commandos start attacking construction sites, saying they will continue to do so until they can face the Build Team. Optimus Prime wants the Build Team working on the Space Bridge so he doesn't tell them what is going on. Instead he sends in the [[Autobot Brothers]] and Team Bullet Train to stop the Commandos' rampage without success. [[Wedge (RID)|Wedge]] eventually finds out about the construction sites, but Optimus orders him to continue working on the Space Bridge. The Build Team can't hold back, however, and defy Optimus's orders. They sabotage the Space Bridge so they can fight the Commandos without interruption.

The Commandos find the Build Team to be of little challenge as fighters, easily beating them, and the Autobots regroup and merge into [[Landfill (RID)|Landfill]], who doesn't have much more success in fighting [[Ruination (RID)|Ruination]]. The Autobot brothers, attempting to come to Landfill's aid via the space bridge, end up in the middle of nowhere thanks to [[Heavy Load (RID)|Heavy Load]]'s sabotage.

[[File:Test of Metal Ruinationlandfilltai.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Optimus, there's a better show on!]]
Landfill takes the fight underground by digging a pit and finding underground caverns. Weapons fire causes the caverns to fill up with oil up to the combiners' armpits. Ruination pleads with Landfill not to fire because it will ignite the [[oil]] and destroy them both. Landfill fires anyway, determined to stop the Commandos' construction site rampages. The blast, however, doesn't actually destroy either team. The Commandos are blasted into the distance and the Build Team is blasted a short distance. But they are on fire. Optimus Prime arrives just in time to put them out.

The Autobots take a relaxing swim in the remaining oil pools. Wedge apologizes for disobeying orders and Prime tells him not to worry about it.
{{-}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[T-AI]] (6)
*[[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] (7)
*[[Wedge (RID)|Wedge]] (8)
*[[Railspike (RID)|Railspike]] (9)
*[[Rapid Run (RID)|Rapid Run]] (10)
*[[Midnight Express (RID)|Midnight Express]] (11)
*[[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]] (12)
*[[Heavy Load (RID)|Heavy Load]] (14)
*[[Hightower (RID)|Hightower]] (15)
*[[Grimlock (RID 2001)|Grimlock]] (16)
*[[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]] (19)
*[[X-Brawn]] (20)
*[[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]] (22)
*[[Landfill (RID)|Landfill]] (23)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]
|c2=
*[[Armorhide (RID)|Armorhide]] (1)
*[[Rollbar (RID)|Rollbar]] (2)
*[[Ro-Tor (RID)|Ro-Tor]] (3)
*[[Movor]] (4)
*[[Mega-Octane]] (5)
*[[Ruination (RID)|Ruination]] (13)
*[[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]] (18)
*[[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]]

|c3=
*[[Koji Onishi]] (17)
*[[Kelly (RID)|Kelly]] (21)
}}

==Quotes==
"I'll ask you nicely. Give us the energy you stole right now!" 
"You're a little mixed up. If I was gonna give it back, I wouldn't have stolen it!"
:—'''Railspike''''s tough talk is confounded by '''Mega-Octane''''s air-headed yet oddly compelling logic.

"Two can play that game, choo choo chump!"
:—'''Mega-Octane''' demonstrates his Wildean wit.

"Great this is all I need!" 
"And what do you mean by that crack!? We have an emergency how many times do I have to call!?"
:—'''Side Burn''' getting scolded by '''T-AI''' for slacking off.

"That guy is definitely weird."
:—'''Kelly''''s assessment of Side Burn. She is correct.

"If the Build Team doesn't show up here right now, we're gonna blast every construction site and crush every tractor, like ''this'' and ''this'' and ''this'' and ''this''!"
:—'''Armorhide''', whilst stamping repeatedly on a crushed bulldozer to emphasise his "point". The guy has issues.

"Let go of me, you overgrown go-kart! When I get a hold of you, I'm turning you into a skateboard!" 
"Hahaha! Wedgie Boy!"
:—'''Wedge''' and '''Mega-Octane''' exchange utterly ''bizarre'' taunts.

'''Ruination''': I guess you weren't as tough as you thought you were, Autobot weakling. 
'''Landfill''': Well, you're as stupid as you look.
:—Combiner comebacks.

"We’re surrounded by oil. This place will explode and we’ll all be destroyed. Let’s call a truce until we’re out of here." 
"Forget it!" 
"What are you doing?! Don’t you care about your own safety? You know what’ll happen if you shoot in here!" 
"Yeah, I know what’ll happen. I’ll blow you to smithereens. Fire laser!" 
"NOOOOO--!" 
:—'''Ruination''' learns too late that '''Landfill''' doesn't believe in {{w|Mutually Assured Destruction}}

<div class="center">[[File:Test of Metal Oilbath.jpg|none|550px|thumb|"There's nothing like a hot tub. A nice hot tub of oil, that is."—Side Burn]]</div>

==Notes==
===Differences with ''Car Robots''===
*''Car Robots'' makes a point of having Mega-Octane note that the energy the Decepticons steal is just to keep the ''[[Megastar]]'' powered up, which has always been the purpose of their energy raids in the Japanese version. He doesn't specify this in ''Robots in Disguise'', as the English version has always treated energy-theft as being their day-to-day goal in and of itself, [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1]]-style.
*Three ''Car Robots'' scene transitions are replaced with CGI ''Robots in Disguise'' ones: first when Rail Racer and the Build Team escape into the space bridge after stealing the energy back, then after X-Brawn is defeated by the Decepticons, and finally after the Build Team tamper with the space bridge.
*In ''Car Robots'', after the Decepticons return to the ''Megastar'', the scene begins with everyone talking about how troublesome the space bridge is; Rollbar recounts their last attempt to mess with it, Ro-Tor is the one to suggest trying to destroy it, and Mega-Octane points out that it would only be rebuilt, meaning it's the Build Team they must destroy. In ''Robots in Disguise'', this is all shuffled around so that the scene begins with some angry dialogue from Megatron and Scourge over the loss of the energy, followed by Rollbar introducing the space bridge into the conversation, Ro-Tor blaming it for their failure, and Mega-Octane recounting their previous scheme involving it, suggesting they should have destroyed it then, and then realizing the Build Team are the real targets.
*After the scene in the ''Megastar'', ''Robots in Disguise'' cuts to commercial. In ''Car Robots'', the scene dissolves into the next, with Mega-Octane's dialogue continuing to play over the top of the transition.
*In ''Car Robots'', in-keeping with the Build Team's "honorable young lord and his retainers" shtick, the Decepticons' attacks on construction sites are played more as an attack on the Build Team's honor, as fellow construction vehicles are seen as the Build Team's "comrades". It's a desire to avenge these comrades that motivates them to action, and they make a point of telling the Decepticons that as they fight them later in the episode.
*In ''Robots in Disguise'', Optimus immediately suspects the construction site attacks are a revenge scheme against the Build Team, but he doesn't make that connection until later in ''Car Robots''.
*Side Burn's seaside concern in ''Robots in Disguise'' is that the sun will fade his paint, while in ''Car Robots'', it's that the salty sea air will cause him to rust.
*As ever, ''Robots in Disguise'' deletes the [[List of Japanese ID numbers|Japanese ID numbers]] from the member select screen; only the Bullet Trains' names are added in English. The shot of the screen is also extended by about 2 seconds in the English version.
*''Robots in Disguise'' deletes a short montage scene which lasts about 13 seconds, which features the Autobot Brothers using the space bridge, Team Bullet train rolling into action, and the Decepticons exchanging fire with the trains, and replaces it with a new sequence about 38 seconds in length, which covers the same thing, but through different footage pieced together from bits of "[[Battle Protocol!]]" and "[[Commandos]]". It features conversation between the brothers about why Optimus won't tell the Build Team and more fighting between the trains and Movor and Ro-Tor. The "Commandos" footage is set at night, however, so the time of day suddenly changes when Wedge arrives after the fight is over.
*When Mega-Octane has Wedge in his grip, the Decepticon is the one doing the talking in ''Car Robots'', mocking Wedge's fighting skills, while in ''Robots in Disguise'', Wedge is the one who speaks, threatening Mega-Octane.
*Heavy Load is the one who tells Wedge to run away in ''Car Robots''; in ''Robot in Disguise'', it's Grimlock.
*Landfill's dialogue in ''Robots in Disguise'' makes it clear he's going to use the oil to finish off Ruination as soon as he sees it, and the pair then exchange lines with Ruination trying to talk him out of it. In ''Car Robots'', the two combiners don't speak to each other in this scene; rather, Ruination talks to himself about the potential danger.
*After the Decepticons are defeated, ''Robots in Disguise'' goes to commercial break, cutting out the dissolve used in ''Car Robots'' to transition into the next scene.
*Optimus's talk is all positive in ''Robots in Disguise'' as he once again talks about how great teamwork is, but in ''Car Robots'', his good spirits are tempered with a lesson for Wedge about patience and trust in others.

===Animation and/or technical glitches===
*When grappling with Ruination, Rail Racer's upper torso (made from Railspike's bullet train nose) switches back and forth from being colored entirely blue to entirely white. It's supposed to be white with just the very top center colored blue (but is often colored completely white).
*After Ruination's fight with Rail Racer, there's a Predacon-Predacon scene transition when it should technically be Decepticon-Decepticon (even though the Commandos don't go anywhere and it seems to be solely to avoid animating him decombining).
*Just before attempting to shoulder-thrust Mega-Octane, Wedge's fists are black instead of silver.
*Then, when he tries to shoulder-thrust the Decepticon, his shoulder shovel-halves disappear.
*When Landfill is having a Strength Test against Ruination, Landfill's eyes are very very small.

===Continuity errors===
*The entire power plant appears to explode in the very first shot, but is mostly intact a few seconds later.

===Trivia===
*For reasons unknown [[Sandy Fox]] does not voice T-AI in this episode; in her absence, T-AI's voice is instead provided by [[Rebecca Forstadt]].
*The energy the Commandos steal is only ever referred to as "energy", even though it's presumably oil (unless humans have worked out how to make energon). Whatever form the energy is supposed to be taking, the power plant seems to store it in comically gigantic blue gas cans, designed at the perfect scale for evil robots to waltz in and steal them. How thoughtful!
*Having previously sat out the events of "[[Landfill (episode)|Landfill]]", stalwarts [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] and [[Slapper (RID)|the]] [[Gas Skunk|Predacon]] [[Dark Scream|Trio]] are once again absent from this episode. What's an incompetent henchman to do, eh?
*Scourge, meanwhile, takes an oddly minimal and inconsistent role; he stands with the Decepticons as Megatron chews them out at the beginning of the episode, and appears once more to confront the Autobot Brothers during one of the Decepticon construction site raids, but is otherwise completely absent, playing no role in the finale whatsoever.
*This episode features a ''heck'' of a lot of [[Stock footage|stock transformation footage]], with Railspike, Rapid Run, Midnight Express, Rail Racer, Wedge, Heavy Load, Grimlock, Hightower, Landfill, Optimus Prime and Ruination (twice!) all receiving extended transformation sequences to <s>pad out the running time</s> increase the drama.
*In the United States, this episode aired on the same day as the premiere of the ''Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters'' anime on Kids' WB!, which served as the direct competitor to Fox Kids.
** Coincidentally, both series were animated by Studio GALLOP.

===Foreign localization===
'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''La vendetta dei Decepticons'''" ("The Decepticons' revenge")

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Uma Prova de Fogo'''" ("A Test of Fire")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Transformers: Car Robots'' — Vol. 6 ([[Pony Canyon]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2005 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Three-Disc Box Set: Part 2 of 2 ([[Maximum Entertainment]]) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Season Two (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Ultimate Collection (Maximum Entertainment)

==External links==
*[http://www.ridforever.info/episode-transcripts/rid-episode-23-a-test-of-metal "A Test of Metal" transcript on RiDForever.info]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Test of Metal}}
[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2001) episodes]]

A Test of Metal

2025-11-26T04:47:15Z

JustACollector: /* Trivia */

{{episode
|otherseries=''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 cartoon)|Transformers: Robots in Disguise]]'' ep 23
|prev=Sky-Byte Saves the Day
|next=Ultra Magnus (episode)
|otherseries2=Chronological order
|prev2=Lessons of the Past
|title="A Test of Metal"
|japanese=狙われたビルドマスター
|romaji=Nerawareta Buildmaster
|translation=Targeted Buildmasters
|image=Test of Metal Armourhidestomp.jpg
|caption=Is it possible to enjoy yourself ''too'' much?
|production code=
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]], [[Studio Gallop]]
|written by=[[Kazuhiko Gōdo]] (Japanese) [[Richard Epcar]] (English)
|director=[[Yoshiaki Tsutsui]]
|animation studio=Studio Gallop
|airdate=[[September 6|6 September]] [[2000]] (Japanese) [[September 29]], [[2001]] (English)
|continuity=
}}
'''Build Team foils a heist''' 
'''Commandos are poor losers''' 
'''Oil's well that ends well'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Test of Metal Ruinationrailracerwedge.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Optimus is missing the show.]]
The [[Commando (RID)|Commandos]] have stolen some energy from the East Power Station, and [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] sends [[Team Bullet Train]] to stop them. While fighting with [[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]], [[Ruination (RID)|Ruination]] doesn't notice that the [[Build Team (RID)|Build Team]] is taking the energy. In a lull in the action, Rail Racer and the Build Team escape through the [[Global Space Bridge]]. After being chewed out by [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]], the Commandos become frustrated that the [[Autobot]]s can use the Space Bridge as an escape route and make disabling the Space Bridge a priority. They decide that destroying the Build Team is the only way to disable the Space Bridge for good.

[[File:Test of Metal Optimuswedge.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|T-AI, call me when there's a better show on.]]
In order to flush out the Build Team, the Commandos start attacking construction sites, saying they will continue to do so until they can face the Build Team. Optimus Prime wants the Build Team working on the Space Bridge so he doesn't tell them what is going on. Instead he sends in the [[Autobot Brothers]] and Team Bullet Train to stop the Commandos' rampage without success. [[Wedge (RID)|Wedge]] eventually finds out about the construction sites, but Optimus orders him to continue working on the Space Bridge. The Build Team can't hold back, however, and defy Optimus's orders. They sabotage the Space Bridge so they can fight the Commandos without interruption.

The Commandos find the Build Team to be of little challenge as fighters, easily beating them, and the Autobots regroup and merge into [[Landfill (RID)|Landfill]], who doesn't have much more success in fighting [[Ruination (RID)|Ruination]]. The Autobot brothers, attempting to come to Landfill's aid via the space bridge, end up in the middle of nowhere thanks to [[Heavy Load (RID)|Heavy Load]]'s sabotage.

[[File:Test of Metal Ruinationlandfilltai.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Optimus, there's a better show on!]]
Landfill takes the fight underground by digging a pit and finding underground caverns. Weapons fire causes the caverns to fill up with oil up to the combiners' armpits. Ruination pleads with Landfill not to fire because it will ignite the [[oil]] and destroy them both. Landfill fires anyway, determined to stop the Commandos' construction site rampages. The blast, however, doesn't actually destroy either team. The Commandos are blasted into the distance and the Build Team is blasted a short distance. But they are on fire. Optimus Prime arrives just in time to put them out.

The Autobots take a relaxing swim in the remaining oil pools. Wedge apologizes for disobeying orders and Prime tells him not to worry about it.
{{-}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[T-AI]] (6)
*[[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] (7)
*[[Wedge (RID)|Wedge]] (8)
*[[Railspike (RID)|Railspike]] (9)
*[[Rapid Run (RID)|Rapid Run]] (10)
*[[Midnight Express (RID)|Midnight Express]] (11)
*[[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]] (12)
*[[Heavy Load (RID)|Heavy Load]] (14)
*[[Hightower (RID)|Hightower]] (15)
*[[Grimlock (RID 2001)|Grimlock]] (16)
*[[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]] (19)
*[[X-Brawn]] (20)
*[[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]] (22)
*[[Landfill (RID)|Landfill]] (23)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]
|c2=
*[[Armorhide (RID)|Armorhide]] (1)
*[[Rollbar (RID)|Rollbar]] (2)
*[[Ro-Tor (RID)|Ro-Tor]] (3)
*[[Movor]] (4)
*[[Mega-Octane]] (5)
*[[Ruination (RID)|Ruination]] (13)
*[[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]] (18)
*[[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]]

|c3=
*[[Koji Onishi]] (17)
*[[Kelly (RID)|Kelly]] (21)
}}

==Quotes==
"I'll ask you nicely. Give us the energy you stole right now!" 
"You're a little mixed up. If I was gonna give it back, I wouldn't have stolen it!"
:—'''Railspike''''s tough talk is confounded by '''Mega-Octane''''s air-headed yet oddly compelling logic.

"Two can play that game, choo choo chump!"
:—'''Mega-Octane''' demonstrates his Wildean wit.

"Great this is all I need!" 
"And what do you mean by that crack!? We have an emergency how many times do I have to call!?"
:—'''Side Burn''' getting scolded by '''T-AI''' for slacking off.

"That guy is definitely weird."
:—'''Kelly''''s assessment of Side Burn. She is correct.

"If the Build Team doesn't show up here right now, we're gonna blast every construction site and crush every tractor, like ''this'' and ''this'' and ''this'' and ''this''!"
:—'''Armorhide''', whilst stamping repeatedly on a crushed bulldozer to emphasise his "point". The guy has issues.

"Let go of me, you overgrown go-kart! When I get a hold of you, I'm turning you into a skateboard!" 
"Hahaha! Wedgie Boy!"
:—'''Wedge''' and '''Mega-Octane''' exchange utterly ''bizarre'' taunts.

'''Ruination''': I guess you weren't as tough as you thought you were, Autobot weakling. 
'''Landfill''': Well, you're as stupid as you look.
:—Combiner comebacks.

"We’re surrounded by oil. This place will explode and we’ll all be destroyed. Let’s call a truce until we’re out of here." 
"Forget it!" 
"What are you doing?! Don’t you care about your own safety? You know what’ll happen if you shoot in here!" 
"Yeah, I know what’ll happen. I’ll blow you to smithereens. Fire laser!" 
"NOOOOO--!" 
:—'''Ruination''' learns too late that '''Landfill''' doesn't believe in {{w|Mutually Assured Destruction}}

<div class="center">[[File:Test of Metal Oilbath.jpg|none|550px|thumb|"There's nothing like a hot tub. A nice hot tub of oil, that is."—Side Burn]]</div>

==Notes==
===Differences with ''Car Robots''===
*''Car Robots'' makes a point of having Mega-Octane note that the energy the Decepticons steal is just to keep the ''[[Megastar]]'' powered up, which has always been the purpose of their energy raids in the Japanese version. He doesn't specify this in ''Robots in Disguise'', as the English version has always treated energy-theft as being their day-to-day goal in and of itself, [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1]]-style.
*Three ''Car Robots'' scene transitions are replaced with CGI ''Robots in Disguise'' ones: first when Rail Racer and the Build Team escape into the space bridge after stealing the energy back, then after X-Brawn is defeated by the Decepticons, and finally after the Build Team tamper with the space bridge.
*In ''Car Robots'', after the Decepticons return to the ''Megastar'', the scene begins with everyone talking about how troublesome the space bridge is; Rollbar recounts their last attempt to mess with it, Ro-Tor is the one to suggest trying to destroy it, and Mega-Octane points out that it would only be rebuilt, meaning it's the Build Team they must destroy. In ''Robots in Disguise'', this is all shuffled around so that the scene begins with some angry dialogue from Megatron and Scourge over the loss of the energy, followed by Rollbar introducing the space bridge into the conversation, Ro-Tor blaming it for their failure, and Mega-Octane recounting their previous scheme involving it, suggesting they should have destroyed it then, and then realizing the Build Team are the real targets.
*After the scene in the ''Megastar'', ''Robots in Disguise'' cuts to commercial. In ''Car Robots'', the scene dissolves into the next, with Mega-Octane's dialogue continuing to play over the top of the transition.
*In ''Car Robots'', in-keeping with the Build Team's "honorable young lord and his retainers" shtick, the Decepticons' attacks on construction sites are played more as an attack on the Build Team's honor, as fellow construction vehicles are seen as the Build Team's "comrades". It's a desire to avenge these comrades that motivates them to action, and they make a point of telling the Decepticons that as they fight them later in the episode.
*In ''Robots in Disguise'', Optimus immediately suspects the construction site attacks are a revenge scheme against the Build Team, but he doesn't make that connection until later in ''Car Robots''.
*Side Burn's seaside concern in ''Robots in Disguise'' is that the sun will fade his paint, while in ''Car Robots'', it's that the salty sea air will cause him to rust.
*As ever, ''Robots in Disguise'' deletes the [[List of Japanese ID numbers|Japanese ID numbers]] from the member select screen; only the Bullet Trains' names are added in English. The shot of the screen is also extended by about 2 seconds in the English version.
*''Robots in Disguise'' deletes a short montage scene which lasts about 13 seconds, which features the Autobot Brothers using the space bridge, Team Bullet train rolling into action, and the Decepticons exchanging fire with the trains, and replaces it with a new sequence about 38 seconds in length, which covers the same thing, but through different footage pieced together from bits of "[[Battle Protocol!]]" and "[[Commandos]]". It features conversation between the brothers about why Optimus won't tell the Build Team and more fighting between the trains and Movor and Ro-Tor. The "Commandos" footage is set at night, however, so the time of day suddenly changes when Wedge arrives after the fight is over.
*When Mega-Octane has Wedge in his grip, the Decepticon is the one doing the talking in ''Car Robots'', mocking Wedge's fighting skills, while in ''Robots in Disguise'', Wedge is the one who speaks, threatening Mega-Octane.
*Heavy Load is the one who tells Wedge to run away in ''Car Robots''; in ''Robot in Disguise'', it's Grimlock.
*Landfill's dialogue in ''Robots in Disguise'' makes it clear he's going to use the oil to finish off Ruination as soon as he sees it, and the pair then exchange lines with Ruination trying to talk him out of it. In ''Car Robots'', the two combiners don't speak to each other in this scene; rather, Ruination talks to himself about the potential danger.
*After the Decepticons are defeated, ''Robots in Disguise'' goes to commercial break, cutting out the dissolve used in ''Car Robots'' to transition into the next scene.
*Optimus's talk is all positive in ''Robots in Disguise'' as he once again talks about how great teamwork is, but in ''Car Robots'', his good spirits are tempered with a lesson for Wedge about patience and trust in others.

===Animation and/or technical glitches===
*When grappling with Ruination, Rail Racer's upper torso (made from Railspike's bullet train nose) switches back and forth from being colored entirely blue to entirely white. It's supposed to be white with just the very top center colored blue (but is often colored completely white).
*After Ruination's fight with Rail Racer, there's a Predacon-Predacon scene transition when it should technically be Decepticon-Decepticon (even though the Commandos don't go anywhere and it seems to be solely to avoid animating him decombining).
*Just before attempting to shoulder-thrust Mega-Octane, Wedge's fists are black instead of silver.
*Then, when he tries to shoulder-thrust the Decepticon, his shoulder shovel-halves disappear.
*When Landfill is having a Strength Test against Ruination, Landfill's eyes are very very small.

===Continuity errors===
*The entire power plant appears to explode in the very first shot, but is mostly intact a few seconds later.

===Trivia===
*For reasons unknown [[Sandy Fox]] does not voice T-AI in this episode; in her absence, T-AI's voice is instead provided by [[Rebecca Forstadt]].
*The energy the Commandos steal is only ever referred to as "energy", even though it's presumably oil (unless humans have worked out how to make energon). Whatever form the energy is supposed to be taking, the power plant seems to store it in comically gigantic blue gas cans, designed at the perfect scale for evil robots to waltz in and steal them. How thoughtful!
*Having previously sat out the events of "[[Landfill (episode)|Landfill]]", stalwarts [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] and [[Slapper (RID)|the]] [[Gas Skunk|Predacon]] [[Dark Scream|Trio]] are once again absent from this episode. What's an incompetent henchman to do, eh?
*Scourge, meanwhile, takes an oddly minimal and inconsistent role; he stands with the Decepticons as Megatron chews them out at the beginning of the episode, and appears once more to confront the Autobot Brothers during one of the Decepticon construction site raids, but is otherwise completely absent, playing no role in the finale whatsoever.
*This episode features a ''heck'' of a lot of [[Stock footage|stock transformation footage]], with Railspike, Rapid Run, Midnight Express, Rail Racer, Wedge, Heavy Load, Grimlock, Hightower, Landfill, Optimus Prime and Ruination (twice!) all receiving extended transformation sequences to <s>pad out the running time</s> increase the drama.
*In the United States, this episode aired on the same day as the premiere of the ''Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters'' anime on Kids' WB!, which served as the direct competitor to Fox Kids.

===Foreign localization===
'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''La vendetta dei Decepticons'''" ("The Decepticons' revenge")

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Uma Prova de Fogo'''" ("A Test of Fire")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Transformers: Car Robots'' — Vol. 6 ([[Pony Canyon]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2005 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Three-Disc Box Set: Part 2 of 2 ([[Maximum Entertainment]]) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Season Two (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Ultimate Collection (Maximum Entertainment)

==External links==
*[http://www.ridforever.info/episode-transcripts/rid-episode-23-a-test-of-metal "A Test of Metal" transcript on RiDForever.info]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Test of Metal}}
[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2001) episodes]]

A Test of Metal

2025-11-26T04:46:11Z

JustACollector:

{{episode
|otherseries=''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 cartoon)|Transformers: Robots in Disguise]]'' ep 23
|prev=Sky-Byte Saves the Day
|next=Ultra Magnus (episode)
|otherseries2=Chronological order
|prev2=Lessons of the Past
|title="A Test of Metal"
|japanese=狙われたビルドマスター
|romaji=Nerawareta Buildmaster
|translation=Targeted Buildmasters
|image=Test of Metal Armourhidestomp.jpg
|caption=Is it possible to enjoy yourself ''too'' much?
|production code=
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]], [[Studio Gallop]]
|written by=[[Kazuhiko Gōdo]] (Japanese) [[Richard Epcar]] (English)
|director=[[Yoshiaki Tsutsui]]
|animation studio=Studio Gallop
|airdate=[[September 6|6 September]] [[2000]] (Japanese) [[September 29]], [[2001]] (English)
|continuity=
}}
'''Build Team foils a heist''' 
'''Commandos are poor losers''' 
'''Oil's well that ends well'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Test of Metal Ruinationrailracerwedge.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Optimus is missing the show.]]
The [[Commando (RID)|Commandos]] have stolen some energy from the East Power Station, and [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] sends [[Team Bullet Train]] to stop them. While fighting with [[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]], [[Ruination (RID)|Ruination]] doesn't notice that the [[Build Team (RID)|Build Team]] is taking the energy. In a lull in the action, Rail Racer and the Build Team escape through the [[Global Space Bridge]]. After being chewed out by [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]], the Commandos become frustrated that the [[Autobot]]s can use the Space Bridge as an escape route and make disabling the Space Bridge a priority. They decide that destroying the Build Team is the only way to disable the Space Bridge for good.

[[File:Test of Metal Optimuswedge.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|T-AI, call me when there's a better show on.]]
In order to flush out the Build Team, the Commandos start attacking construction sites, saying they will continue to do so until they can face the Build Team. Optimus Prime wants the Build Team working on the Space Bridge so he doesn't tell them what is going on. Instead he sends in the [[Autobot Brothers]] and Team Bullet Train to stop the Commandos' rampage without success. [[Wedge (RID)|Wedge]] eventually finds out about the construction sites, but Optimus orders him to continue working on the Space Bridge. The Build Team can't hold back, however, and defy Optimus's orders. They sabotage the Space Bridge so they can fight the Commandos without interruption.

The Commandos find the Build Team to be of little challenge as fighters, easily beating them, and the Autobots regroup and merge into [[Landfill (RID)|Landfill]], who doesn't have much more success in fighting [[Ruination (RID)|Ruination]]. The Autobot brothers, attempting to come to Landfill's aid via the space bridge, end up in the middle of nowhere thanks to [[Heavy Load (RID)|Heavy Load]]'s sabotage.

[[File:Test of Metal Ruinationlandfilltai.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Optimus, there's a better show on!]]
Landfill takes the fight underground by digging a pit and finding underground caverns. Weapons fire causes the caverns to fill up with oil up to the combiners' armpits. Ruination pleads with Landfill not to fire because it will ignite the [[oil]] and destroy them both. Landfill fires anyway, determined to stop the Commandos' construction site rampages. The blast, however, doesn't actually destroy either team. The Commandos are blasted into the distance and the Build Team is blasted a short distance. But they are on fire. Optimus Prime arrives just in time to put them out.

The Autobots take a relaxing swim in the remaining oil pools. Wedge apologizes for disobeying orders and Prime tells him not to worry about it.
{{-}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[T-AI]] (6)
*[[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] (7)
*[[Wedge (RID)|Wedge]] (8)
*[[Railspike (RID)|Railspike]] (9)
*[[Rapid Run (RID)|Rapid Run]] (10)
*[[Midnight Express (RID)|Midnight Express]] (11)
*[[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]] (12)
*[[Heavy Load (RID)|Heavy Load]] (14)
*[[Hightower (RID)|Hightower]] (15)
*[[Grimlock (RID 2001)|Grimlock]] (16)
*[[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]] (19)
*[[X-Brawn]] (20)
*[[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]] (22)
*[[Landfill (RID)|Landfill]] (23)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]
|c2=
*[[Armorhide (RID)|Armorhide]] (1)
*[[Rollbar (RID)|Rollbar]] (2)
*[[Ro-Tor (RID)|Ro-Tor]] (3)
*[[Movor]] (4)
*[[Mega-Octane]] (5)
*[[Ruination (RID)|Ruination]] (13)
*[[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]] (18)
*[[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]]

|c3=
*[[Koji Onishi]] (17)
*[[Kelly (RID)|Kelly]] (21)
}}

==Quotes==
"I'll ask you nicely. Give us the energy you stole right now!" 
"You're a little mixed up. If I was gonna give it back, I wouldn't have stolen it!"
:—'''Railspike''''s tough talk is confounded by '''Mega-Octane''''s air-headed yet oddly compelling logic.

"Two can play that game, choo choo chump!"
:—'''Mega-Octane''' demonstrates his Wildean wit.

"Great this is all I need!" 
"And what do you mean by that crack!? We have an emergency how many times do I have to call!?"
:—'''Side Burn''' getting scolded by '''T-AI''' for slacking off.

"That guy is definitely weird."
:—'''Kelly''''s assessment of Side Burn. She is correct.

"If the Build Team doesn't show up here right now, we're gonna blast every construction site and crush every tractor, like ''this'' and ''this'' and ''this'' and ''this''!"
:—'''Armorhide''', whilst stamping repeatedly on a crushed bulldozer to emphasise his "point". The guy has issues.

"Let go of me, you overgrown go-kart! When I get a hold of you, I'm turning you into a skateboard!" 
"Hahaha! Wedgie Boy!"
:—'''Wedge''' and '''Mega-Octane''' exchange utterly ''bizarre'' taunts.

'''Ruination''': I guess you weren't as tough as you thought you were, Autobot weakling. 
'''Landfill''': Well, you're as stupid as you look.
:—Combiner comebacks.

"We’re surrounded by oil. This place will explode and we’ll all be destroyed. Let’s call a truce until we’re out of here." 
"Forget it!" 
"What are you doing?! Don’t you care about your own safety? You know what’ll happen if you shoot in here!" 
"Yeah, I know what’ll happen. I’ll blow you to smithereens. Fire laser!" 
"NOOOOO--!" 
:—'''Ruination''' learns too late that '''Landfill''' doesn't believe in {{w|Mutually Assured Destruction}}

<div class="center">[[File:Test of Metal Oilbath.jpg|none|550px|thumb|"There's nothing like a hot tub. A nice hot tub of oil, that is."—Side Burn]]</div>

==Notes==
===Differences with ''Car Robots''===
*''Car Robots'' makes a point of having Mega-Octane note that the energy the Decepticons steal is just to keep the ''[[Megastar]]'' powered up, which has always been the purpose of their energy raids in the Japanese version. He doesn't specify this in ''Robots in Disguise'', as the English version has always treated energy-theft as being their day-to-day goal in and of itself, [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1]]-style.
*Three ''Car Robots'' scene transitions are replaced with CGI ''Robots in Disguise'' ones: first when Rail Racer and the Build Team escape into the space bridge after stealing the energy back, then after X-Brawn is defeated by the Decepticons, and finally after the Build Team tamper with the space bridge.
*In ''Car Robots'', after the Decepticons return to the ''Megastar'', the scene begins with everyone talking about how troublesome the space bridge is; Rollbar recounts their last attempt to mess with it, Ro-Tor is the one to suggest trying to destroy it, and Mega-Octane points out that it would only be rebuilt, meaning it's the Build Team they must destroy. In ''Robots in Disguise'', this is all shuffled around so that the scene begins with some angry dialogue from Megatron and Scourge over the loss of the energy, followed by Rollbar introducing the space bridge into the conversation, Ro-Tor blaming it for their failure, and Mega-Octane recounting their previous scheme involving it, suggesting they should have destroyed it then, and then realizing the Build Team are the real targets.
*After the scene in the ''Megastar'', ''Robots in Disguise'' cuts to commercial. In ''Car Robots'', the scene dissolves into the next, with Mega-Octane's dialogue continuing to play over the top of the transition.
*In ''Car Robots'', in-keeping with the Build Team's "honorable young lord and his retainers" shtick, the Decepticons' attacks on construction sites are played more as an attack on the Build Team's honor, as fellow construction vehicles are seen as the Build Team's "comrades". It's a desire to avenge these comrades that motivates them to action, and they make a point of telling the Decepticons that as they fight them later in the episode.
*In ''Robots in Disguise'', Optimus immediately suspects the construction site attacks are a revenge scheme against the Build Team, but he doesn't make that connection until later in ''Car Robots''.
*Side Burn's seaside concern in ''Robots in Disguise'' is that the sun will fade his paint, while in ''Car Robots'', it's that the salty sea air will cause him to rust.
*As ever, ''Robots in Disguise'' deletes the [[List of Japanese ID numbers|Japanese ID numbers]] from the member select screen; only the Bullet Trains' names are added in English. The shot of the screen is also extended by about 2 seconds in the English version.
*''Robots in Disguise'' deletes a short montage scene which lasts about 13 seconds, which features the Autobot Brothers using the space bridge, Team Bullet train rolling into action, and the Decepticons exchanging fire with the trains, and replaces it with a new sequence about 38 seconds in length, which covers the same thing, but through different footage pieced together from bits of "[[Battle Protocol!]]" and "[[Commandos]]". It features conversation between the brothers about why Optimus won't tell the Build Team and more fighting between the trains and Movor and Ro-Tor. The "Commandos" footage is set at night, however, so the time of day suddenly changes when Wedge arrives after the fight is over.
*When Mega-Octane has Wedge in his grip, the Decepticon is the one doing the talking in ''Car Robots'', mocking Wedge's fighting skills, while in ''Robots in Disguise'', Wedge is the one who speaks, threatening Mega-Octane.
*Heavy Load is the one who tells Wedge to run away in ''Car Robots''; in ''Robot in Disguise'', it's Grimlock.
*Landfill's dialogue in ''Robots in Disguise'' makes it clear he's going to use the oil to finish off Ruination as soon as he sees it, and the pair then exchange lines with Ruination trying to talk him out of it. In ''Car Robots'', the two combiners don't speak to each other in this scene; rather, Ruination talks to himself about the potential danger.
*After the Decepticons are defeated, ''Robots in Disguise'' goes to commercial break, cutting out the dissolve used in ''Car Robots'' to transition into the next scene.
*Optimus's talk is all positive in ''Robots in Disguise'' as he once again talks about how great teamwork is, but in ''Car Robots'', his good spirits are tempered with a lesson for Wedge about patience and trust in others.

===Animation and/or technical glitches===
*When grappling with Ruination, Rail Racer's upper torso (made from Railspike's bullet train nose) switches back and forth from being colored entirely blue to entirely white. It's supposed to be white with just the very top center colored blue (but is often colored completely white).
*After Ruination's fight with Rail Racer, there's a Predacon-Predacon scene transition when it should technically be Decepticon-Decepticon (even though the Commandos don't go anywhere and it seems to be solely to avoid animating him decombining).
*Just before attempting to shoulder-thrust Mega-Octane, Wedge's fists are black instead of silver.
*Then, when he tries to shoulder-thrust the Decepticon, his shoulder shovel-halves disappear.
*When Landfill is having a Strength Test against Ruination, Landfill's eyes are very very small.

===Continuity errors===
*The entire power plant appears to explode in the very first shot, but is mostly intact a few seconds later.

===Trivia===
*For reasons unknown [[Sandy Fox]] does not voice T-AI in this episode; in her absence, T-AI's voice is instead provided by [[Rebecca Forstadt]].
*The energy the Commandos steal is only ever referred to as "energy", even though it's presumably oil (unless humans have worked out how to make energon). Whatever form the energy is supposed to be taking, the power plant seems to store it in comically gigantic blue gas cans, designed at the perfect scale for evil robots to waltz in and steal them. How thoughtful!
*Having previously sat out the events of "[[Landfill (episode)|Landfill]]", stalwarts [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] and [[Slapper (RID)|the]] [[Gas Skunk|Predacon]] [[Dark Scream|Trio]] are once again absent from this episode. What's an incompetent henchman to do, eh?
*Scourge, meanwhile, takes an oddly minimal and inconsistent role; he stands with the Decepticons as Megatron chews them out at the beginning of the episode, and appears once more to confront the Autobot Brothers during one of the Decepticon construction site raids, but is otherwise completely absent, playing no role in the finale whatsoever.
*This episode features a ''heck'' of a lot of [[Stock footage|stock transformation footage]], with Railspike, Rapid Run, Midnight Express, Rail Racer, Wedge, Heavy Load, Grimlock, Hightower, Landfill, Optimus Prime and Ruination (twice!) all receiving extended transformation sequences to <s>pad out the running time</s> increase the drama.
*In the United States, this was the first episode to air on the same day as the premiere of the ''Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters'' anime on Kids' WB!, the channel of which served as the direct competitor to Fox Kids.

===Foreign localization===
'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''La vendetta dei Decepticons'''" ("The Decepticons' revenge")

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Uma Prova de Fogo'''" ("A Test of Fire")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Transformers: Car Robots'' — Vol. 6 ([[Pony Canyon]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2005 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Three-Disc Box Set: Part 2 of 2 ([[Maximum Entertainment]]) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Season Two (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Ultimate Collection (Maximum Entertainment)

==External links==
*[http://www.ridforever.info/episode-transcripts/rid-episode-23-a-test-of-metal "A Test of Metal" transcript on RiDForever.info]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Test of Metal}}
[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2001) episodes]]

Bullet Train to the Rescue

2025-11-26T04:42:50Z

JustACollector:

{{episode|
|series=RiD
|ep=3
|title="Bullet Train to the Rescue"
|japanese=合体せよ! 新幹線ロボ
|romaji=Gattai seyo! Shinkansen Robo
|translation=Unite! Bullet Train Robo
|image=Bullet Train Rescue Bullettrains.jpg
|caption=It's pink, so it's a girl, right?
|production code=
|production company=[[TV Tokyo]], [[Nihon Ad Systems|NAS]], [[Studio Gallop]]
|written by=[[Yukiyoshi Ōhashi]] (Japanese) [[Steve Kramer]] (English)
|director=[[Akira Katō]]
|animation studio=Studio Gallop
|airdate=[[April 19]], [[2000]] (Japanese) [[September 11]], [[2001]] (English, limited markets) [[September 12]], 2001 (English)
|continuity=
}}

'''Railspike, (the gruff train)''' 
'''Midnight Express (fancy train)''' 
'''Rapid Run, (cool train)'''

==Synopsis==
[[Gas Skunk]] destroys an unmanned freight train and is promptly told by [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] that he's wasting his time and should be searching for energy. [[Slapper (RID)|Slapper]] also takes out an unmanned freight train and is given the same lecture by the shark.

[[File:Bullet Train Rescue Dutton Linear RFG.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Don't tell me the batteries died again!]]
The [[Autobot]]s watch a news report of the launch of the [[Linear RFG]], an automated train set to make its first run today. [[Koji Onishi|Koji]] is excited to be able to ride on the train, but [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Prime]], aware of the recent railroad incidents, keeps a watchful eye. He brings the three [[Autobot Brothers|Autobot brothers]], planning on following the train in case the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] try some shenanigans.

As anticipated, the Predacons are up to their regular hijinks and plant a [[pulsar bomb]] to sabotage the train's track where the tracks cross over a bridge. [[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]] and [[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]] engage the Predacons, while Prime radios the train's command center in hopes of halting the train before it reaches the scene of the battle. But because of [[Dark Scream]]'s meddling, communication with the train is shut off. To save the day, the Autobots need to call on the help of [[Team Bullet Train]].

[[File:Bullet Train Rescue Bridgeexplode.jpg|right|upright=1.1|thumb|Improper usage of demolitions!]]
[[T-AI]] radios the three members of the team. Each of them abandons his human passengers (Much to [[Kelly (RID)|Kelly]]'s annoyance, as [[Rapid Run (RID)|Rapid Run]] disrupts her commute to work) and rushes across the space bridge to meet with Optimus and the Linear RFG. Prime leaves the three to their own affairs so he can assist in fighting off the Predacons planting a bomb on the track ahead. Team Bullet Train radios Koji and asks him to request that the driver use the manual override to slow down the train, but the brakes aren't working and the train is speeding up, scaring the passengers. With the easy solution unavailable, [[Midnight Express (RID)|Midnight Express]] has the brilliant idea of coating the track with glue! [[Railspike (RID)|Railspike]] has a better solution, however: slow the train down by linking up with it.

[[File:Bullet Train Rescue Optimusrailracer.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Their secret handshake took [[Units of time|vorns]] to perfect.]]
Ahead, the bomb explodes, taking out the bridge. The Predacons withdraw from the conflict, standing back to watch the anticipated carnage and leaving the Autobots to deal with the oncoming train. The Linear RFG rolls towards the gap, despite the additional weight of the three Bullet Trains trying to anchor it. So Optimus converts into his super mode and attempts literally to catch the trains to block them from derailing. Prime is successful, and the train comes to a stop before anything goes into the chasm. Sky-Byte tries one last chance to ruin the day, but Side Burn wrecks Sky-Byte's footing and aim.

Finally [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]] arrives and begins battling the Autobots. Team Bullet Train returns, having moved the Linear RFG safely away from the destroyed bridge, and combine into [[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]]. Overpowered by the force of Rail Racer's attacks, Megatron flees with his troops in tow. The menace defeated, Team Bullet Train gets back to work, and the Linear RFG completes its inaugural run watched over by Optimus.
{{--}}

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]] (6)
*[[T-AI]] (7)
*[[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]] (8)
*[[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]] (9)
*[[X-Brawn]] (10)
*[[Railspike (RID)|Railspike]] (12)
*[[Rapid Run (RID)|Rapid Run]] (13)
*[[Midnight Express (RID)|Midnight Express]] (15)
*[[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]] (17)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]
|c2=
*[[Gas Skunk]] (1)
*[[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] (2)
*[[Slapper (RID)|Slapper]] (3)
*[[Dark Scream]] (11)
*[[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]] (16)

|c3=
*[[Dorie Dutton]] (4)
*[[Koji Onishi]] (5)
*[[Kelly (RID)|Kelly]] (14)
}}

==Quotes==
"There's nothing going on here that would concern you."
:—'''Gas Skunk''' attempts the [[wikia:starwars:Mind trick|Jedi mind trick]] on [[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]].

"How about coating the entire track with glue! That would slow it up." 
"Dude, I'm gonna pretend you didn't say that."
:—'''Midnight Express''' fails to impress '''Rapid Run''' with his problem-solving abilities.

"Don't you even bother to say hello anymore?"
:—'''Optimus''' is disappointed at Megatron's lack of social graces.

'''Side Burn:''' Wow, how come we can't do that? 
'''Prowl:''' I don't know, I think they're double-jointed. 
'''Side Burn:''' Maybe they can teach us how to do that. 
'''X-Brawn:''' I was never a good student. 
'''Side Burn:''' Come to think of it, I wouldn't want to fuse with you guys anyway.
:—The '''Autobot Brothers''', after watching Team Bullet Train combine into Rail Racer.

==Notes==
===Differences with ''Car Robots''===
[[File:Rid ep3 deleted shots.jpg|right|thumb]]
*In ''Car Robots'', Sky-Byte berates Slapper for attacking an empty train because it does nothing to show humanity the Predacons' ruthlessness. In ''Robots in Disguise'', he considers it a waste of time that's keeping him from searching for [[energon]]. This change leads into a general alteration to the plot of the episode: in ''Robots in Disguise'', Sky-Byte wants to steal energy from the Linear RFG, while in ''Car Robots'', he simply wants to destroy the train to prove the Predacons' power to mankind.
*''Car Robots'' specifically notes that Koji was able to get on the Linear RFG thanks to the influence of one of his father's friends.
*''Car Robots'' has Optimus access the space bridge to keep up with the speed of the Linear RFG, whereas ''Robots in Disguise'' has him claiming that he needs to return to base to monitor the situation from there (which [[Bullet Train to the Rescue#Continuity errors|he ''doesn't'' seem to do since he's next seen still running alongside the train]]).
*''Robots in Disguise'' cuts out a shot of a distressed engineer (pictured) reacting to Railspike's decision to go off on his own.
*As they arrive to join Optimus Prime, ''Robots in Disguise'' has Railspike and Rapid Run discuss the urgency of the mission. ''Car Robots'', meanwhile, has Railspike criticize Rapid Run for disregarding the priority of their passengers' safety.
*Where ''Robots in Disguise'' has Midnight Express simply comment on the time-saving nature of the Global Space Bridge, ''Car Robots'' has him bring up one of the characteristics from his Japanese toy [[bio]], a preference for driving through cold areas. As Rapid Run points out, this fondness for the cold is the reason for his perspiration when he arrives late to join his team-mates in warmer climates; in ''Robots in Disguise'', it's just plain old exertion.
*In ''Car Robots'', Railspike wants to alert the passengers on board the Liner RFG to the situation, but in ''Robots in Disguise'', he ''doesn't'' want to let them know.
*On discussing how to stop the Linear RFG, ''Car Robots'' has Midnight Express suggest using a big cushion, where ''Robots in Disguise'' has him propose coating the track with glue.
*After Rapid Run gets in front of the Linear RFG, ''Robots in Disguise'' cuts out a shot of Railspike and Midnight Express moving behind it.
*A still reaction shot of Prowl (pictured) watching as the Linear RFG is about to slam into Prime is cut from ''Robots in Disguise''.
[[File:Rid ep3 blizzardstorm vs opticallaserstrike.jpg|right|thumb|275px]]
*In ''Car Robots'', Optimus Prime uses his Blizzard Storm attack to explode the cliff out from under the Predacons. As this is done only through a pretty bizarre-looking shot of something that is not readily apparent as a jet of water shooting across the screen (pictured; Prime is shown with his cannon deployed after the cliff has exploded to explain the visual), coupled with the general oddness of water exploding a cliff, ''Robots in Disguise'' does away with it, and inserts some footage of Side Burn performing an "Optical Laser Strike" attack instead. This "attack" is actually a clip taken from the end of his transformation [[stock footage]] (also pictured), which features a flare of red energy erupting from his eyes and running across his visor.
*Scenes extended in ''Robots in Disguise'' by looped and repeated footage include:
**Slapper's dialogue just before he attacks the train
**Various bits of conversation between Prime, Koji and the Autobot Brothers in the Autobots
**Prowl's argument with Slapper and Gas Skunk
**Prime's conversation with the train technicians
**T-AI's selection of Team Bullet Train
**Railspike and Rapid Run's discussion about the Linear RFG
**Koji's discussion with Railspike
**Prime announcing that he must do something, before transforming into Super Mode
**Rapid Run requesting that they be allowed to move the Linear RFG back to a safe distance
**Prime's threat to the Predacons, and Sky-Byte's response

===Animation or technical errors===
[[File:BulletTrainRescue Sky-Byte's mouth.jpg|thumb|right|The only time Sky-Byte has ever been this terrifying]]
*When Sky-Byte gloats that the train is doomed, his mouth is drawn with a mouth interior behind it rather than the usual all-white.

===Continuity errors===
*While following alongside the train, Optimus says he'd "better get back to headquarters", but the next time we cut to him, he's still with the train.

===Trivia===
*The combined form of [[Team Bullet Train]], [[Rail Racer (RID)|Rail Racer]], refers to himself in the plural.
*The humans seem to be quite familiar with Optimus Prime and who he is.
*It would appear that this episode was originally to be titled "Bullet Train Rescue", as this was the title offered by various sources before the episode aired. The error has not entirely gone away, as this title was used on the R2 DVD menus. That said, it might have been ''better'' if this title had been used, since the [[Spychangers to the Rescue|very next episode]] has a title that is almost exactly the same. This would not be the [[The Test (episode)|last time]] this [[The Fish Test|would happen]] in ''Robots in Disguise''.
*The animators did not put terribly much effort into making Team Bullet Train's coaches match the driving cars. Railspike and Rapid Run's coaches are an undecorated off-white. Midnight Express' coaches make an attempt to match his livery, but still stand out sharply since they're single-level.
*Rail Racer's "Super Turbo Punch!" consists of ''punching his opponent in the face''. Awesome!
*In some markets which aired cartoons in the morning rather than in the afternoon, this episode premiered on September 11, 2001. If that doesn't seem very significant, look at the date and the subject matter of the episode, and let it sink in...
*In Japan, this was the first episode to air after the premiere of the ''Yu-Gi-Oh! Duel Monsters'' anime on TV Tokyo Channel 12, which would have its first season produced around the same time as this show.

===Foreign localization===
'''Italian'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Scambio pericoloso'''" ("Dangerous exchange")

'''Portuguese'''
:*''Title:'' "'''O Resgate do Trem-Bala'''" ("The Bullet Train Rescue")

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2000 — ''Transformers: Car Robots'' — Vol. 1 ([[Pony Canyon]]) — Japanese audio only. 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2004 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Volume One ([[Maximum Entertainment]]) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2004 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Three-Disc Box Set: Part 1 of 2 (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Battle Protocol (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Special Edition 2-Disc Set (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise / RoboCop: The Animated Series / M.A.S.K.'' (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Season One (Maximum Entertainment) 
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2007 — ''Transformers: Robots in Disguise'' — Ultimate Collection (Maximum Entertainment)

==External links==
*[http://www.ridforever.info/episode-transcripts/rid-episode-03-bullet-train-to-the-rescue "Bullet Train to the Rescue" transcript on RiDForever.info]

[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2001) episodes]]

Kelly (RID)

2025-06-05T02:27:28Z

JustACollector: /* Fiction */

{{disambigm|Kelly (disambiguation)|Junko (disambiguation)}}
:''Kelly is a very unfortunate [[human]] from the [[Robots in Disguise continuity family]].''

[[File:KellyRID2.jpg|238px|thumb|Do you have any idea how much doing that Anime Waterfall Tear thing hurts your eyes?]]
Poor '''Kelly''', she was most likely born on a Friday the 13th underneath both a ladder and an open umbrella inside a house and possibly within close proximity of numerous black cats. To put it lightly, her luck ''sucks''. On the bright side, Kelly appears to be fabulously wealthy (or at least has great insurance policies). So while her many sports cars typically wind up destroyed during Transformer battles (into which she inadvertently steps ''all the time'', no matter where on the globe she travels in order to get away from "the talking cars"), she can just buy a new one.

Kelly is also quite boy-crazy, always on the lookout for a good man. However, thanks to her bad luck, the only man to ever show any interest in her is [[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]], who, unbeknownst to her, is actually macking on the red sports cars she drives.

''Poor, rich Kelly.''

{{bigquote|It's not happening, it's not happening, it's not happening, I'm going to sleep...|Kelly, after watching flying [[Prowl (RID)|police cars]] and [[Optimus Prime (RID)|fire trucks]], along with a swimming [[X-Brawn|SUV]]|"[[The Hunt for Black Pyramid]]"}}

==Fiction==
===Cartoon continuity===
====2001 ''Robots in Disguise'' cartoon====
{{voiceactor|[[Philece Sampler]] (English), [[Chieko Higuchi]] (Japanese)|[[Diana Pérez]] (Latin American Spanish), [[Laura Lenghi]] (Italian), [[Rita Lopes]] (Brazilian Portuguese), [[Kim Sun-yeong]] (Korean)}}
[[File:KellyRID1.jpg|left|thumb|WAAAAAH-HOO-HOO-HOOEYYY!!!]]
Kelly's first encounter with those strange, talking cars from another planet happened when her new sports utility vehicle ([[X-Brawn]] to his friends), came to life in response to a call from [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]]. Not wanting to lug her into battle, X-Brawn apologized in advance and then launched her violently through his sunroof. {{storylink|Battle Protocol!}}

Her second talking car encounter introduced her to Side Burn, whose advances on her red sports car she misinterpreted as an interest in her. Shortly after this, she took delivery of another red sports car at the docks. Unbeknownst to her, the car contained a bomb planted by terrorists which was coveted by the Predacons, and the car was destroyed when [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] retrieved said device. She was saved from injury by [[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]]. {{storylink|An Explosive Situation}}

Any mode of transport proved to be a problem for Kelly: [[Team Bullet Train|bullet trains]] in [[Metro City]] had a habit of abandoning their carriages, {{storylink|Bullet Train to the Rescue}} traffic was so abysmal she wound up stuck in it for what seemed like an eternity, {{storylink|Spychangers to the Rescue}} and her boating trip was spoiled by police cars and fire engines falling from the sky. {{storylink|The Hunt for Black Pyramid}}

It wasn't long before Kelly was seeking therapy for her constant visions of talking cars and giant robotic animals, and her doctor suggested a quiet, restful walk in some ruins. The tranquility of the ruins was soon ruined by the arrival of Side Burn and a pair of guided missiles. {{storylink|The Secret of the Ruins}}

Perhaps out of desperation she turned to driving X-Brawn again, only to have him once again ditch her for a mission (At least that time it wasn't through the roof). {{storylink|Sideburn's Obsession}} Kelly was driving on the open road when she found her car being harassed by Side-Burn once more. Despite the Autobot clarifying that he didn't have a crush on Kelly, she sped off and managed to give him the slip, only to swerve off the road in order to avoid hitting a cow. At this point, she had no choice but to concede that she must have been under some sort of curse. {{storylink|Secret Weapon: D-5}} Later, Kelly was stuck waiting at a gas station while a [[Mirage (RID)|Lola T94 Indy car]] fueled up ahead of her. When she noticed that, apparently, no one was driving the car as it sped away, she tried to convince herself that it just had a really short driver. {{storylink|Mirage's Betrayal}} Her encounters with various talking cars led her to attempt a holiday in Europe, where [[Skid-Z (RID)|Skid-Z]] turned her new hat into roadkill. {{storylink|Skid Z's Choice}}

[[File:Towline Goes Haywire Kellyxbrawn.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|And believe it or not, this is actually a good day.]]
Perhaps assuming that her previous problems were just bad luck, Kelly went for a calming trip in the forest in X-Brawn, only for him to be randomly towed away by a [[Tow-Line (RID)|talking tow truck]]. {{storylink|Tow-Line Goes Haywire}}

Another holiday, this time in [[China]], was also ruined by Side Burn. {{storylink|The Ultimate Robot Warrior}} Kelly's next attempted vacation took her to America, where her hike in the American wildness was interrupted by the arrival of Optimus Prime and the [[Autobot Brothers]], and a subsequent earthquake as the Predacons uncovered an Autobot spaceship. However it wasn't a total loss, as she was rescued by some cute soldiers and taken back to their army base.

[[File:The Decepticons Kelly.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|This is almost her default expression.]]
Of course, her luck didn't last, as the base was soon attacked by [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]] and his Predacons, who had obtained six [[Protoform]]s and were looking for [[alternate mode]]s for them to scan. Attempting to flee in a truck full of rocket fuel (Kelly was a trained truck driver), she almost drove the rig into a crater but was saved by Optimus Prime, shortly before all three of them were scanned to create the Decepticon [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]]'s form. Scourge's bio-signature was, as a result, partially human. {{storylink|The Decepticons}} This would later allow him to pass himself off as human enough to briefly control [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]]. {{storylink|The Human Element}}

Returning to civilization, Kelly tried her luck at a casino, only to be interrupted by a power cut caused by the destruction of [[Sherman Dam]] - at the worst possible time too, as she had almost hit the jackpot. {{storylink|Commandos}} She went on to a [[Caribbean Sea|Caribbean]] resort on [[Montrose Island]], and enjoyed the hot pools. So much so she stayed in them when the volcano's increased activity heated them up to an abnormally high temperature, almost broiling her. {{storylink|Volcano (episode)|Volcano}}

A drive around the country side was no way to shake off Side Burn either. Kelly was stalked by the love-struck 'bot no matter where she drove, as Side Burn suggested various movies he and Kelly's car could watch together, such as {{w|Titanic (1997 film)|Titanic}} and {{w|Body Snatchers (1993 film)|Body Snatchers}}. At least Kelly had her fair share of witty retorts to yell back at him as she shut down his advances this time around. She still wound up at the bottom of a ditch at the end of the day though. {{storylink|Attack from Outer Space}}

Kelly made a trip to the mechanic to get her car fixed after the beating it received at the hands of the “giant robots.” Once her car was repaired, she took it out for a ride immediately. And it got wrecked immediately, as Scourge cleaved off its rear end. Losing her composure, Kelly began laughing hysterically, proclaiming that she'd only have to buy half as much gas for her car from now on. {{storylink|The Test (episode)|The Test}} She then took X-Brawn out for a drive in the mountains to get away from all the crazies. The Predacons lept in front of her, wanting a little talk with her car. Knowing what awaited her if she stuck around, Kelly simply closed her eyes, walked away from her vehicle. and calmly waited for everything to return to normal. {{storylink|The Fish Test}}

Perhaps deciding that vacations were more stressful than relaxing, Kelly returned to Metro City where she found being chased by Side Burn was becoming a regular feature of her day. Even the malls weren't safe after she was almost run down by [[Railspike (RID)|Railspike]], who'd been deposited there by a malfunctioning space bridge. {{storylink|Landfill (episode)|Landfill}}

[[File:Sky-Byte Saves the Day Kelly.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|Praying to God to make it all stop.]]
Her trip to the opening of the [[CGA Tower]] similarly ended in disaster when it was unexpectedly attacked by Predacons. Fortunately the tower was saved when the Predacons helped the Autobots stabilise it, and everyone inside was able to cheer on Sky-Byte. {{storylink|Sky-Byte Saves the Day}}

Maybe because her current SUV always got her into trouble, being an Autobot and all, Kelly decided to purchase a brand-new all-terrain vehicle. She couldn't resist getting it in red though, which meant that after a day of surfing, she came back to it, only to find Side Burn nuzzling up to her car. She didn't have to put up with the pest for long this time around... But Side Burn left in a hurry, kicking up a heap of sand on his way out, covering both Kelly and her SUV in the stuff. {{storylink|A Test of Metal}}

Kelly's problems continued, although at one point it looked promisingly like all the talking cars were being hauled away on a [[Ultra Magnus (RID)|car carrier]]. {{storylink|The Two Faces of Ultra Magnus}} Then the talking cars started inexplicably changing colours. {{storylink|Power to Burn!}} Even the most innocent of activities, such as a shopping trip, would end with being chased around by the creepy blue car. {{storylink|Fortress Maximus (episode)|Fortress Maximus}} And there was the encounter with the giant singing shark in the subway. {{storylink|Koji Gets His Wish}}

[[File:Peril from the Past Kelly.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Her life really is a cartoon.]]
She opted to take another holiday, this time in the remote [[Sahara|Sahara desert]]. Her drive through the desert in a red jeep was interrupted by the arrival of the Decepticons. {{storylink|A Friendly Contest}} Then an attempted camel ride resulted in her becoming lost in the desert. Fortunately she was picked up by X-Brawn, who dropped her off at the nearest oasis. {{storylink|Peril from the Past}}

Returning to Metro City once again, Kelly did finally get at least one day off from being hassled by giant robots... though only because [[Tow-Line (RID)|Tow-Line]] restrained Side Burn for a good portion of the day. {{storylink|Maximus Emerges}} Later, she found out that even reading a book while sitting on a park bench was dangerous, as Scourge and [[Mega-Octane]] showed up to cause trouble. {{storylink|Mistaken Identity}} A ride in a pedal-powered swan boat on the lake was similarly interrupted when a massive battle between the two opposing forces of giant robots broke out nearby, and Kelly was forced to swim for her life. {{storylink|Surprise Attack!}}

Soon afterwards, Kelly was, once again, being pursued in her red sports car by Side Burn... only for the two of them to be interrupted from their usual routine by Prowl. {{storylink|The Final Battle (RID)|The Final Battle}}
{{--}}

====Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity====
{{CRnote|Kelly||Junko Shiragami}}
=====Ask Vector Prime=====
A couple of years after all of that excitement, Junko was attempting to have a nice [[Greece|Grecian]] vacation when the [[Mutant (G1)|Mutant]] [[Burnout (CR)|Burnout]] attempted to kidnap her! She was saved by [[R.E.V.|Super R.E.V.]] The poor girl can't catch a break! {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime, 2015/08/01}}

=====''Asterisk Story''=====
[[File:JunkoShiragamiSunstreaker01.jpg|upright=1.8|thumb|Seems it's Sunstreaker with the bad luck this time.]]

In [[2005]], Junko Shiragami took a job as a "race queen" model who worked at auto shows. As a member of the [[Interplanetary Personnel Exchange Program]], she was partnered with [[Sunstreaker (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Sunstreaker]] as a part of the [[Autobot]] Race Team. Their similar narcissistic attitudes made them a good pair (Junko's favorite colors were also yellow and red, so that helped), though they argued quite a bit. {{storylink|#Binaltech Asterisk|Binaltech Asterisk Junko bio}}

While Junko was going for a drive with her partner (and reading a magazine behind the wheel), Sunstreaker was egged into a race with a human. Despite her protests, Sunstreaker engaged in a very fast and very dangerous race, scaring Junko half to death. While making a sharp turn, Sunstreaker destroyed a road sign. Junko stopped the race and proceeded to chew the Autobot out. {{storylink|I'll Show You Some Great Scenery}}

=====''Legends''/''Unite Warriors''=====
Junko was one of the many women brought to the [[Legends World]] by [[Tigatron]] using the [[10.2 ultra-drill|ultra-drill]] in an attempt to get women who liked him better than [[Springer (G1)|Springer]]. It did not work out, as all of the women brought over eventually swooned over Springer. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 19|Bonus Edition Vol. 19}}

In [[2021]], Junko accompanied Sunstreaker when he went to [[Hawaii]] for surfing training. {{storylink|Crossing the Pacific Ocean!?}} She was visiting a public bath when she was shocked to find her old adversaries, the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]], washing up in a neighboring room. {{storylink|Strategy Meeting in an Earth Bath?!}}

===Dreamwave ''Armada'' comic===
[[File:DWArmada8 Kelly.jpg|upright=0.66|thumb|A cameo in a Dreamwave comic? Her luck really IS terrible.]]
Kelly was nearly mowed down by the [[Street Action Mini-Con Team]] when they responded (against their will) to a [[Mini-Con]] recall signal. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 8|Armada #8}}

===''Classics''===
When [[Ultra Magnus (SG)|an alternate Ultra Magnus]] threatened to destroy Earth with the power of his [[Terminus Blade]], Kelly was seen near Sunstreaker during the evacuation attempts in [[Canada]]. {{storylink|Invasion (issue)|Invasion}}

===2005 IDW continuity===
Kelly was at [[Poverty Flat]] when the Transformers battled there. {{storylink|Earthfall Part 2: Detonation Boulevard|Detonation Boulevard}}

===Legends World===
Junko was among the passengers on a train who were weirded out by [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattle]]'s new robot body. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 1|Bonus Edition Vol. 1}} She was supposed to narrate a ''Transformers'' live show held at [[Tokyo Toy Show]] 2015, but the performance was interrupted by [[Scourge (RID)|Black Convoy]]. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. EX (Black Convoy)|Bonus Edition Vol. EX}}

===Renegade Rhetoric===
[[Nemesis Prime (G1)|Nemesis Prime]] took Kelly hostage, and the subsequent crisis of conscience this caused allowed him to break his brainwashing and return to Optimus Prime. {{storylink|Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric (2), 2016/07/14}}

==Toys==
===''Binaltech Asterisk''===
[[File:BTA-toy Junko.jpg|upright=1.4|thumb]]
<ul class="iconlist">{{Bp-a1|'''Sunstreaker feat. Dodge Viper meets Junko''' (2005)}}</ul>
:*''ID number'': '''BTA 02'''
:*''Release date'': [[September 29]], 2005
:*''Accessories'': Alternate left & right arms, alternate lower body, stand
{{toydesigner|[[Hiroyuki Taiga]] (concept artist)}}

: Part of the second ''[[The Transformers: Binaltech Asterisk|Binaltech Asterisk]]'' set, Junko is a PVC figurine that came packaged with [[Sunstreaker (G1)/toys#Binaltech Asterisk|Sunstreaker]]. She came with a second set of arms and a "sitting" lower body that lets her drive her partner Sunstreaker, though theoretically she should work with most ''Alternators'' molds.

::*[[Source:Transformers Binaltech Asterisk bios#2|Archive of ''Binaltech Asterisk'' Junko's bio and tech specs]]
::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Cybertron/Junko/junko.htm More information on ''Binaltech Asterisk'' Junko Shiragami at TFU.info]''

==Notes==
*Kelly's name is never once spoken during the ''Robots in Disguise'' dub. Rather, it was only ever made known through a casting sheet released online at the time of the show's premiere. However, in the Italian dub of "[[Secret Weapon: D-5]]", when she believes she had successfully escaped from Side Burn, she says to herself: "Congratulations Kelly, you did it!"
*Like all the girls in the ''[[The Transformers: Binaltech Asterisk|Binaltech Asterisk]]'' line, the character of Junko Shiragami was inspired by an existing female human from a past ''Transformers'' series, in this case Kelly (née Junko in Japanese). Since ''Asterisk'' is a Generation 1 toyline, and ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)#Japanese release|Car Robots]]'' (''Robots in Disguise''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Japanese iteration) belongs to the mammoth [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Japanese Generation 1 continuity]], they were potentially the same character, but no firm word was given till the [[Hayato Sakamoto|the writer]] of the ''[[Unite Warriors Offshot]]'' story established her as such.
*According to Junko's ''Binaltech Asterisk'' bio, her birthday is [[November 5]], she has a weakness for {{w|Korean barbecue}}, she swims for exercise, and her hair smells like marigolds. The more you know!

===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Junko Shiragami''' (白神ジュンコ ''Shiragami Junko'')

[[Category:Armada humans]]
[[Category:Binaltech Asterisk characters]]
[[Category:Car Robots humans]]
[[Category:Classics humans]]
[[Category:IDW (2005) humans]]
[[Category:Legends humans]]
[[Category:Legends World humans]]
[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2001) humans]]
[[Category:Unite Warriors humans]]

Kelly (RID)

2025-06-05T02:24:56Z

JustACollector: /* Fiction */

{{disambigm|Kelly (disambiguation)|Junko (disambiguation)}}
:''Kelly is a very unfortunate [[human]] from the [[Robots in Disguise continuity family]].''

[[File:KellyRID2.jpg|238px|thumb|Do you have any idea how much doing that Anime Waterfall Tear thing hurts your eyes?]]
Poor '''Kelly''', she was most likely born on a Friday the 13th underneath both a ladder and an open umbrella inside a house and possibly within close proximity of numerous black cats. To put it lightly, her luck ''sucks''. On the bright side, Kelly appears to be fabulously wealthy (or at least has great insurance policies). So while her many sports cars typically wind up destroyed during Transformer battles (into which she inadvertently steps ''all the time'', no matter where on the globe she travels in order to get away from "the talking cars"), she can just buy a new one.

Kelly is also quite boy-crazy, always on the lookout for a good man. However, thanks to her bad luck, the only man to ever show any interest in her is [[Side Burn (RID)|Side Burn]], who, unbeknownst to her, is actually macking on the red sports cars she drives.

''Poor, rich Kelly.''

{{bigquote|It's not happening, it's not happening, it's not happening, I'm going to sleep...|Kelly, after watching flying [[Prowl (RID)|police cars]] and [[Optimus Prime (RID)|fire trucks]], along with a swimming [[X-Brawn|SUV]]|"[[The Hunt for Black Pyramid]]"}}

==Fiction==
===Cartoon continuity===
====2001 ''Robots in Disguise'' cartoon====
{{voiceactor|[[Philece Sampler]] (English), [[Chieko Higuchi]] (Japanese)|[[Diana Pérez]] (Latin American Spanish), [[Laura Lenghi]] (Italian), [[Rita Lopes]] (Brazilian Portuguese), [[Kim Sun-yeong]] (Korean)}}
[[File:KellyRID1.jpg|left|thumb|WAAAAAH-HOO-HOO-HOOEYYY!!!]]
Kelly's first encounter with those strange, talking cars from another planet happened when her new sports utility vehicle ([[X-Brawn]] to his friends), came to life in response to a call from [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]]. Not wanting to lug her into battle, X-Brawn apologized in advance and then launched her violently through his sunroof. {{storylink|Battle Protocol!}}

Her second talking car encounter introduced her to Side Burn, whose advances on her red sports car she misinterpreted as an interest in her. Shortly after this, she took delivery of another red sports car at the docks. Unbeknownst to her, the car contained a bomb planted by terrorists which was coveted by the Predacons, and the car was destroyed when [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Sky-Byte]] retrieved said device. She was saved from injury by [[Prowl (RID)|Prowl]]. {{storylink|An Explosive Situation}}

Any mode of transport proved to be a problem for Kelly: [[Team Bullet Train|bullet trains]] in [[Metro City]] had a habit of abandoning their carriages, {{storylink|Bullet Train to the Rescue}} traffic was so abysmal she wound up stuck in it for what seemed like an eternity, {{storylink|Spychangers to the Rescue}} and her boating trip was spoiled by police cars and fire engines falling from the sky. {{storylink|The Hunt for Black Pyramid}}

It wasn't long before Kelly was seeking therapy for her constant visions of talking cars and giant robotic animals, and her doctor suggested a quiet, restful walk in some ruins. The tranquility of the ruins was soon ruined by the arrival of Side Burn and a pair of guided missiles. {{storylink|The Secret of the Ruins}}

Perhaps out of desperation she turned to driving X-Brawn again, only to have him once again ditch her for a mission (At least that time it wasn't through the roof). {{storylink|Sideburn's Obsession}} Kelly was driving on the open road when she found her car being harassed by Side-Burn once more. Despite the Autobot clarifying that he didn't have a crush on Kelly, she sped off and managed to give him the slip, only to swerve off the road in order to avoid hitting a cow. At this point, she had no choice but to concede that she must have been under some sort of curse. {{storylink|Secret Weapon: D-5}} Later, Kelly was stuck waiting at a gas station while a [[Mirage (RID)|Lola T94 Indy car]] fueled up ahead of her. When she noticed that, apparently, no one was driving the car as it sped away, she tried to convince herself that it just had a really short driver. {{storylink|Mirage's Betrayal}} Her encounters with various talking cars led her to attempt a holiday in Europe, where [[Skid-Z (RID)|Skid-Z]] turned her new hat into roadkill. {{storylink|Skid Z's Choice}}

[[File:Towline Goes Haywire Kellyxbrawn.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|And believe it or not, this is actually a good day.]]
Perhaps assuming that her previous problems were just bad luck, Kelly went for a calming trip in the forest in X-Brawn, only for him to be randomly towed away by a [[Tow-Line (RID)|talking tow truck]]. {{storylink|Tow-Line Goes Haywire}}

Another holiday, this time in [[China]], was also ruined by Side Burn. {{storylink|The Ultimate Robot Warrior}} Kelly's next attempted vacation took her to America, where her hike in the American wildness was interrupted by the arrival of Optimus Prime and the [[Autobot Brothers]], and a subsequent earthquake as the Predacons uncovered an Autobot spaceship. However it wasn't a total loss, as she was rescued by some cute soldiers and taken back to their army base.

[[File:The Decepticons Kelly.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|This is almost her default expression.]]
Of course, her luck didn't last, as the base was soon attacked by [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]] and his Predacons, who had obtained six [[Protoform]]s and were looking for [[alternate mode]]s for them to scan. Attempting to flee in a truck full of rocket fuel (Kelly was a trained truck driver), she almost drove the rig into a crater but was saved by Optimus Prime, shortly before all three of them were scanned to create the Decepticon [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]]'s form. Scourge's bio-signature was, as a result, partially human. {{storylink|The Decepticons}} This would later allow him to pass himself off as human enough to briefly control [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|Fortress Maximus]]. {{storylink|The Human Element}}

Returning to civilization, Kelly tried her luck at a casino, only to be interrupted by a power cut caused by the destruction of [[Sherman Dam]] - at the worst possible time too, as she had almost hit the jackpot. {{storylink|Commandos}} She went on to a [[Caribbean Sea|Caribbean]] resort on [[Montrose Island]], and enjoyed the hot pools. So much so she stayed in them when the volcano's increased activity heated them up to an abnormally high temperature, almost broiling her. {{storylink|Volcano (episode)|Volcano}}

A drive around the country side was no way to shake off Side Burn either. Kelly was stalked by the love-struck 'bot no matter where she drove, as Side Burn suggested various movies he and Kelly's car could watch together, such as {{w|Titanic (1997 film)|Titanic}} and {{w|Body Snatchers (1993 film)|Body Snatchers}}. At least Kelly had her fair share of witty retorts to yell back at him as she shut down his advances this time around. She still wound up at the bottom of a ditch at the end of the day though. {{storylink|Attack from Outer Space}}

Kelly made a trip to the mechanic to get her car fixed after the beating it received at the hands of the “giant robots.” Once her car was repaired, she took it out for a ride immediately. And it got wrecked immediately, as Scourge cleaved off its rear end. Losing her composure, Kelly began laughing hysterically, proclaiming that she'd only have to buy half as much gas for her car from now on. {{storylink|The Test (episode)|The Test}} She then took X-Brawn out for a drive in the mountains to get away from all the crazies. The Predacons lept in front of her, wanting a little talk with her car. Knowing what awaited her if she stuck around, Kelly simply closed her eyes, walked away from her vehicle. and calmly waited for everything to return to normal. {{storylink|The Fish Test}}

Perhaps deciding that vacations were more stressful than relaxing, Kelly returned to Metro City where she found being chased by Side Burn was becoming a regular feature of her day. Even the malls weren't safe after she was almost run down by [[Railspike (RID)|Railspike]], who'd been deposited there by a malfunctioning space bridge. {{storylink|Landfill (episode)|Landfill}}

[[File:Sky-Byte Saves the Day Kelly.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|Praying to God to make it all stop.]]
Her trip to the opening of the [[CGA Tower]] similarly ended in disaster when it was unexpectedly attacked by Predacons. Fortunately the tower was saved when the Predacons helped the Autobots stabilise it, and everyone inside was able to cheer on Sky-Byte. {{storylink|Sky-Byte Saves the Day}}

Maybe because her current SUV always got her into trouble, being an Autobot and all, Kelly decided to purchase a brand-new all-terrain vehicle. She couldn't resist getting it in red though, which meant that after a day of surfing, she came back to it, only to find Side Burn nuzzling up to her car. She didn't have to put up with the pest for long this time around... But Side Burn left in a hurry, kicking up a heap of sand on his way out, covering both Kelly and her SUV in the stuff. {{storylink|A Test of Metal}}

Kelly's problems continued, although at one point it looked promisingly like all the talking cars were being hauled away on a [[Ultra Magnus (RID)|car carrier]]. {{storylink|The Two Faces of Ultra Magnus}} Then the talking cars started inexplicably changing colours. {{storylink|Power to Burn!}} Even the most innocent of activities, such as a shopping trip, would end with being chased around by the creepy blue car. {{storylink|Fortress Maximus (episode)|Fortress Maximus}} And there was the encounter with the giant singing shark in the subway. {{storylink|Koji Gets His Wish}}

[[File:Peril from the Past Kelly.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|Her life really is a cartoon.]]
She opted to take another holiday, this time in the remote [[Sahara|Sahara desert]]. Her drive through the desert in a red jeep was interrupted by the arrival of the Decepticons. {{storylink|A Friendly Contest}} Then an attempted camel ride resulted in her becoming lost in the desert. Fortunately she was picked up by X-Brawn, who dropped her off at the nearest oasis. {{storylink|Peril from the Past}}

Returning to Metro City once again, Kelly did finally get at least one day off from being hassled by giant robots... though only because [[Tow-Line (RID)|Tow-Line]] restrained Side Burn for a good portion of the day. {{storylink|Maximus Emerges}} Later, she found out that even reading a book while sitting on a park bench was dangerous, as Scourge and [[Mega-Octane]] showed up to cause trouble. {{storylink|Mistaken Identity}} A ride in a pedal-powered swan boat on the lake was similarly interrupted when a massive battle between the two opposing forces of giant robots broke out nearby, and Kelly was forced to swim for her life. {{storylink|Surprise Attack!}}

Soon afterwards, Kelly was, once again, being pursued in her red sports car by Side Burn. {{storylink|The Final Battle (RID)|The Final Battle}}
{{--}}

====Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity====
{{CRnote|Kelly||Junko Shiragami}}
=====Ask Vector Prime=====
A couple of years after all of that excitement, Junko was attempting to have a nice [[Greece|Grecian]] vacation when the [[Mutant (G1)|Mutant]] [[Burnout (CR)|Burnout]] attempted to kidnap her! She was saved by [[R.E.V.|Super R.E.V.]] The poor girl can't catch a break! {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime, 2015/08/01}}

=====''Asterisk Story''=====
[[File:JunkoShiragamiSunstreaker01.jpg|upright=1.8|thumb|Seems it's Sunstreaker with the bad luck this time.]]

In [[2005]], Junko Shiragami took a job as a "race queen" model who worked at auto shows. As a member of the [[Interplanetary Personnel Exchange Program]], she was partnered with [[Sunstreaker (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Sunstreaker]] as a part of the [[Autobot]] Race Team. Their similar narcissistic attitudes made them a good pair (Junko's favorite colors were also yellow and red, so that helped), though they argued quite a bit. {{storylink|#Binaltech Asterisk|Binaltech Asterisk Junko bio}}

While Junko was going for a drive with her partner (and reading a magazine behind the wheel), Sunstreaker was egged into a race with a human. Despite her protests, Sunstreaker engaged in a very fast and very dangerous race, scaring Junko half to death. While making a sharp turn, Sunstreaker destroyed a road sign. Junko stopped the race and proceeded to chew the Autobot out. {{storylink|I'll Show You Some Great Scenery}}

=====''Legends''/''Unite Warriors''=====
Junko was one of the many women brought to the [[Legends World]] by [[Tigatron]] using the [[10.2 ultra-drill|ultra-drill]] in an attempt to get women who liked him better than [[Springer (G1)|Springer]]. It did not work out, as all of the women brought over eventually swooned over Springer. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 19|Bonus Edition Vol. 19}}

In [[2021]], Junko accompanied Sunstreaker when he went to [[Hawaii]] for surfing training. {{storylink|Crossing the Pacific Ocean!?}} She was visiting a public bath when she was shocked to find her old adversaries, the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]], washing up in a neighboring room. {{storylink|Strategy Meeting in an Earth Bath?!}}

===Dreamwave ''Armada'' comic===
[[File:DWArmada8 Kelly.jpg|upright=0.66|thumb|A cameo in a Dreamwave comic? Her luck really IS terrible.]]
Kelly was nearly mowed down by the [[Street Action Mini-Con Team]] when they responded (against their will) to a [[Mini-Con]] recall signal. {{storylink|Dreamwave Armada issue 8|Armada #8}}

===''Classics''===
When [[Ultra Magnus (SG)|an alternate Ultra Magnus]] threatened to destroy Earth with the power of his [[Terminus Blade]], Kelly was seen near Sunstreaker during the evacuation attempts in [[Canada]]. {{storylink|Invasion (issue)|Invasion}}

===2005 IDW continuity===
Kelly was at [[Poverty Flat]] when the Transformers battled there. {{storylink|Earthfall Part 2: Detonation Boulevard|Detonation Boulevard}}

===Legends World===
Junko was among the passengers on a train who were weirded out by [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattle]]'s new robot body. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 1|Bonus Edition Vol. 1}} She was supposed to narrate a ''Transformers'' live show held at [[Tokyo Toy Show]] 2015, but the performance was interrupted by [[Scourge (RID)|Black Convoy]]. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. EX (Black Convoy)|Bonus Edition Vol. EX}}

===Renegade Rhetoric===
[[Nemesis Prime (G1)|Nemesis Prime]] took Kelly hostage, and the subsequent crisis of conscience this caused allowed him to break his brainwashing and return to Optimus Prime. {{storylink|Transformers: Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric (2), 2016/07/14}}

==Toys==
===''Binaltech Asterisk''===
[[File:BTA-toy Junko.jpg|upright=1.4|thumb]]
<ul class="iconlist">{{Bp-a1|'''Sunstreaker feat. Dodge Viper meets Junko''' (2005)}}</ul>
:*''ID number'': '''BTA 02'''
:*''Release date'': [[September 29]], 2005
:*''Accessories'': Alternate left & right arms, alternate lower body, stand
{{toydesigner|[[Hiroyuki Taiga]] (concept artist)}}

: Part of the second ''[[The Transformers: Binaltech Asterisk|Binaltech Asterisk]]'' set, Junko is a PVC figurine that came packaged with [[Sunstreaker (G1)/toys#Binaltech Asterisk|Sunstreaker]]. She came with a second set of arms and a "sitting" lower body that lets her drive her partner Sunstreaker, though theoretically she should work with most ''Alternators'' molds.

::*[[Source:Transformers Binaltech Asterisk bios#2|Archive of ''Binaltech Asterisk'' Junko's bio and tech specs]]
::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Cybertron/Junko/junko.htm More information on ''Binaltech Asterisk'' Junko Shiragami at TFU.info]''

==Notes==
*Kelly's name is never once spoken during the ''Robots in Disguise'' dub. Rather, it was only ever made known through a casting sheet released online at the time of the show's premiere. However, in the Italian dub of "[[Secret Weapon: D-5]]", when she believes she had successfully escaped from Side Burn, she says to herself: "Congratulations Kelly, you did it!"
*Like all the girls in the ''[[The Transformers: Binaltech Asterisk|Binaltech Asterisk]]'' line, the character of Junko Shiragami was inspired by an existing female human from a past ''Transformers'' series, in this case Kelly (née Junko in Japanese). Since ''Asterisk'' is a Generation 1 toyline, and ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)#Japanese release|Car Robots]]'' (''Robots in Disguise''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s Japanese iteration) belongs to the mammoth [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Japanese Generation 1 continuity]], they were potentially the same character, but no firm word was given till the [[Hayato Sakamoto|the writer]] of the ''[[Unite Warriors Offshot]]'' story established her as such.
*According to Junko's ''Binaltech Asterisk'' bio, her birthday is [[November 5]], she has a weakness for {{w|Korean barbecue}}, she swims for exercise, and her hair smells like marigolds. The more you know!

===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Junko Shiragami''' (白神ジュンコ ''Shiragami Junko'')

[[Category:Armada humans]]
[[Category:Binaltech Asterisk characters]]
[[Category:Car Robots humans]]
[[Category:Classics humans]]
[[Category:IDW (2005) humans]]
[[Category:Legends humans]]
[[Category:Legends World humans]]
[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2001) humans]]
[[Category:Unite Warriors humans]]

Joo In Kim

2024-12-17T15:41:42Z

JustACollector: /* Storyboarding */

'''Joo In Kim''' (김주인 ''Kim Joo In''; born [[September 24]], [[1946]]) is a South Korean animator. His non-''Transformers'' work includes ''Kikô Kantai dairugger XV'', ''Once Upon a Time'', ''Kkobi kkobi 2'', ''Kkobi kkobi 3'', and ''The Olympic Challenge''. His name is sometimes transliterated as '''Jooin Kim'''.

==Storyboarding==
*"[[The Transformers: The Movie]]"
*''[[The Transformers (cartoon)|The Transformers]]'' (season 3, [[Starscream's Ghost]], unknown episodes)

==External links==
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2089140/ Jooin Kim] on the IMDB.

{{DEFAULTSORT:Kim, Joo In}}
[[Category:Storyboard artists]]

Su-yong Jeong

2024-12-17T15:40:17Z

JustACollector: /* Storyboarding */ Saw Su-yong’s name listed in the credits for Starscream's Ghost.

'''Su-yong Jeong''' (정수영 ''Jeong Su-yong'') is a South Korean storyboard artist. He was also an animator on ''[[My Little Pony]]: The Movie'' and directed a number of Korean animated films including ''Robot Star Zangga'', ''Defenders of Space'', and ''Micro-Commando Diatron-5''. The last of those was a movie based on the [[Diaclone]] toyline, and was dubbed in English as ''Space Transformer''.

==Storyboarding==
*"[[The Transformers: The Movie]]"
*''[[The Transformers (cartoon)|The Transformers]]'' (season 3, [[Starscream's Ghost]], unknown episodes)

==Notes==
*''Transformers'' credited him as "Soo Young Chung".

==External links==
*[http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2080116/ Su-yong Jeong] on the IMDB

{{DEFAULTSORT:Jeong, Su-uong}}
[[Category:Storyboard artists]]

Mook

2024-12-17T07:16:21Z

JustACollector:

[[Image:MookDLELogo1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Ey, you call dis pasta-pazuul? Get outta 'ere, ya mook!]]

'''Mook Animation''' (株式会社ムークアニメーション, ''Kabushiki Gaisha Mook Animation'') is a Japanese-based animation studio which has produced animation for numerous American and Japanese programs since its creation in 1986. Some of Mook's Japanese work include ''[[Pokeformers|Pokémon]]'', ''Eureka Seven'', ''Gungrave'' and ''Read or Die''. On the American side, Mook is heavily favored by the Time Warner corporation and their services have been outsourced for shows such as ''Swat Kats: the Radical Squadron'', ''[[X-Men]]: Evolution'', ''The Real Adventures of [[Jonny Quest]]'', ''[[Batman]] & Mr. Freeze: Sub-Zero'' and ''Scooby-Doo on Zombie Island''.

Mook was one of three Japanese studios selected to animate ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]]''. For seasons 1 and 2, they split animation duties with fellow Japanese studio [[The Answer Studio]] (with [[Studio 4°C]] only animating "special" segments rather than whole episodes). However, for whatever reason, they then proceeded to animate the entirety of season 3 on their own. Prior to ''Animated'', Mook would animate [[Mysterious Beast Warriors!?|episode 25]] of ''[[Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Neo (cartoon)|Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Neo]]'' for [[Ashi Productions]].

==''Animated'' episodes animated==
{{collist|2|
* Ep.1-3 - "[[Transform and Roll Out]]"
* Ep.5 - "[[Total Meltdown]]"
* Ep.6 - "[[Blast from the Past]]"
* Ep.9 - "[[Along Came a Spider]]"
* Ep.11 - "[[Lost and Found (episode)|Lost and Found]]"
* Ep.12 - "[[Survival of the Fittest]]"
* Ep.15 - "[[Megatron Rising - Part 1‎]]"
* Ep.17 - "[[The ‎Elite Guard]]"
* Ep.19 - "[[Mission Accomplished]]"
* Ep.21 - "[[Velocity (episode)|Velocity]]"
* Ep.23 - "[[A Fistful of Energon]]"
* Ep.26 - "[[Black Friday (episode)|Black Friday]]"
* Ep.27 - "[[Sari, No One's Home]]"
* Ep.29 - "[[A Bridge Too Close, Part II]]"
* Ep.30-32 - "[[TransWarped]]"
* Ep.33 - "[[Three's a Crowd]]"
* Ep.34 - "[[Where Is Thy Sting?]]"
* Ep.35 - "[[Five Servos of Doom]]"
* Ep.36 - "[[Predacons Rising (Animated)|Predacons Rising]]"
* Ep.37 - "[[Human Error, Part I]]"
* Ep.38 - "[[Human Error, Part II]]"
* Ep.39 - "[[Decepticon Air]]"
* Ep.40 - "[[This Is Why I Hate Machines]]"
* Ep.41 - "[[Endgame, Part I]]"
* Ep.42 - "[[Endgame, Part II]]"
}}

==External links==
*[http://mookanimation.co.jp/index.html Mook DLE's official website (Japanese)]
*[http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1761 Mook at Anime News Network]
*[http://web.archive.org/web/20070927001345/www.dle.jp/eng/mookdle.html Article on Mook's contributions to American animation]

[[Category: Animation companies]]

Mook

2024-12-11T14:48:22Z

JustACollector: Added Pokémon to the list of Japanese animated series that Mook worked on.

[[Image:MookDLELogo1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Ey, you call dis pasta-pazuul? Get outta 'ere, ya mook!]]

'''Mook Animation''' (株式会社ムークアニメーション, ''Kabushiki Gaisha Mook Animation'') is a Japanese-based animation studio which has produced animation for numerous American and Japanese programs since its creation in 1986. Some of Mook's Japanese work include ''Pokémon'', ''Eureka Seven'', ''Gungrave'' and ''Read or Die''. On the American side, Mook is heavily favored by the Time Warner corporation and their services have been outsourced for shows such as ''Swat Kats: the Radical Squadron'', ''[[X-Men]]: Evolution'', ''The Real Adventures of [[Jonny Quest]]'', ''[[Batman]] & Mr. Freeze: Sub-Zero'' and ''Scooby-Doo on Zombie Island''.

Mook was one of three Japanese studios selected to animate ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]]''. For seasons 1 and 2, they split animation duties with fellow Japanese studio [[The Answer Studio]] (with [[Studio 4°C]] only animating "special" segments rather than whole episodes). However, for whatever reason, they then proceeded to animate the entirety of season 3 on their own. Prior to ''Animated'', Mook would animate [[Mysterious Beast Warriors!?|episode 25]] of ''[[Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Neo (cartoon)|Super Lifeform Transformers: Beast Wars Neo]]'' for [[Ashi Productions]].

==''Animated'' episodes animated==
{{collist|2|
* Ep.1-3 - "[[Transform and Roll Out]]"
* Ep.5 - "[[Total Meltdown]]"
* Ep.6 - "[[Blast from the Past]]"
* Ep.9 - "[[Along Came a Spider]]"
* Ep.11 - "[[Lost and Found (episode)|Lost and Found]]"
* Ep.12 - "[[Survival of the Fittest]]"
* Ep.15 - "[[Megatron Rising - Part 1‎]]"
* Ep.17 - "[[The ‎Elite Guard]]"
* Ep.19 - "[[Mission Accomplished]]"
* Ep.21 - "[[Velocity (episode)|Velocity]]"
* Ep.23 - "[[A Fistful of Energon]]"
* Ep.26 - "[[Black Friday (episode)|Black Friday]]"
* Ep.27 - "[[Sari, No One's Home]]"
* Ep.29 - "[[A Bridge Too Close, Part II]]"
* Ep.30-32 - "[[TransWarped]]"
* Ep.33 - "[[Three's a Crowd]]"
* Ep.34 - "[[Where Is Thy Sting?]]"
* Ep.35 - "[[Five Servos of Doom]]"
* Ep.36 - "[[Predacons Rising (Animated)|Predacons Rising]]"
* Ep.37 - "[[Human Error, Part I]]"
* Ep.38 - "[[Human Error, Part II]]"
* Ep.39 - "[[Decepticon Air]]"
* Ep.40 - "[[This Is Why I Hate Machines]]"
* Ep.41 - "[[Endgame, Part I]]"
* Ep.42 - "[[Endgame, Part II]]"
}}

==External links==
*[http://mookanimation.co.jp/index.html Mook DLE's official website (Japanese)]
*[http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1761 Mook at Anime News Network]
*[http://web.archive.org/web/20070927001345/www.dle.jp/eng/mookdle.html Article on Mook's contributions to American animation]

[[Category: Animation companies]]

Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

2024-12-09T19:41:47Z

JustACollector: /* Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment */

I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".

::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".

::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.

::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)

== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==

Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

==Identification criteria?==

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}

== I might have cracked it ==

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.

::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).

::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.

::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").

::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".

::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.

::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".

::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.

::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense...
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)
===A sudden twist!===
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)

AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.

(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

==That's some good work, Lou==

I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

== Carnage in C-Minor ==

Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)

==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==

Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)

== Ashi Productions ==

The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions]]? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST
:The animation style of "Call of the Primitives" is completely different from any of the episodes we've attributed to this studio, so unlikely. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:14, 29 March 2020 (EDT)

== Sei Young Animation Co ==

A possibility worth exploring is Korean company Sei Young Animation Co. Marvel used them for 63 episodes of Defenders Of The Earth in 1985 and 1986. They had a very Toei-esque style, having collaborated with them at various points since 1978. It would make sense if the purpose of sending 10 episodes to other studios in season 2, apart from the immediate benefit of taking pressure off Toei, was a test run before commissioning these studios full-time on other shows (AKOM would gradually become Marvel's primary animator). [[User:Greebtron|Greebtron]] ([[User talk:Greebtron|talk]]) 20:18, 21 April 2020 (EDT)
: I think you might be on to something here, at least with a few of the uglier looking episodes like "Kremzeek". It reminds me a bit of the feel and quality seen in some Toei-associated episodes of the time like "Child's Play" or "The Gambler". Heck, it actually wouldn't surprise me if Sei Young actually did those episodes too (under contract of Toei and not Marvel directly, of course). But that's just my thoughts on the matter, anyway. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 19:43, 20 July 2020 (EDT)

== (Season 3) Toei's 13th episode? ==

So I was skimming through the Season 3 episode articles because this was bothering me, but since "Surprise Party" was recently found out to be a Sei Young episode, that leaves Toei with only twelve confirmed Season 3 episodes, even though their resume says they did thirteen.

So my theories are:

1. Either "Surprise Party" was a Toei episode that Sei Young worked on (which would be expected giving their working relationship) and Sei Young simply sent Marvel the finished episode in Toei's place (I don't know the ins-and-outs of outsourcing animation but I think it's a possibility), leaving "Call of the Primitives" the weird outlier.

OR

2. "Surprise Party" was directly assigned to Sei Young, and "Call of the Primitives" was assigned to Toei, and Toei decided to subcontract the work to another studio (possibly Ashi Productions, going by the trivia note on the episode page). We know AKOM did the same thing with "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human", so it's not without precedent.

I could just be rambling nonsense, and the edit to the "Surprise" article was very recent, but I felt this needed to be brought up. --[[User:TheAmazingPoncho|TheAmazingPoncho]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingPoncho|talk]]) 21:33, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

== A possibility, perhaps? ==

So seeing how we finally found out that "Call' was a Toei episode farmed to another company ([[Studio Look]]), it got me wondering about Ashi Pro's involvement in the series regarding their work on the show and I found [https://w.atwiki.jp/sakuga/?cmd=word&word=%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC&type=&pageid=309 this]. It mentions both Habara's involvement on "Heavy Metal War" and Ashi's overall work on the show to his best recollection. The other episodes featured are labeled as "3, 8, 13, 22 and 32". Problem number 1 is that it's difficult as to what order the list is referring to as the English and Japanese broadcast airings are different to both.

Going by the English order, the episodes consist of "More Than Meets the Eye, Part 3", "S.O.S. Dinobots", "The Ultimate Doom, Part 3", "The Imobilizer" and "The Master Builders". Whereas in Japanese, while the first episode is identical, the other ones in that order consists of "War of the Dinobots", "Traitor", "A Prime Problem" and "The God Gambit". Problem no. 2 with that is with the Japanese order, which just straight on Toei or Korean-contracted-under-Toei titles (barring "Prime Problem", which we know is the work of the still-unidentified mystery studio), so I assume the page meant the original English order, which by extension marks "Roll For It" as a possible Ashi episode due to the similarities between it and "S.O.S." But again, that order is also pretty suspect as neither "Imobilizer" or "Master Builders" look anything like an Ashi-contracted episode and more like one of the Toei-supervised Korean episodes of Season 2.

Still, thought this was interesting all things considered. Any thoughts? [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 17:14, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:What if you exclude the More Than Meets the Eye miniseries from the enumeration? It was produced separately, after all. What are episodes 3, 8, 13, 22, and 32 then? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:00, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:And could it only be referring to Season 2? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:03, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
::Now that's the million dollar question I want to know the answer to, as the page I linked to considers it and the rest of Season 1 as one entity and not two separately produced batches. Not to mention this very wiki doesn't seem to discern the difference either and lumps the pilot in with the rest of the series, so I'm mostly basing my speculations towards that. Also, I think the count is for both, Seasons 1 and 2 if we take that into consideration. Only thing to do now is either ask Habara for clarification or wait until production sheets for the first two seasons surface before making better judgement.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 11:43, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Seasons 1 and 2 use the same format of production codes, but the pilot is separate. The pilot is codes 4023, 4024, and 4025. Season 1 proper runs from 700-01 to 700-13 and Season 2 runs from 700-16 to 700-64. You have to go to the individual episode pages to get these, though. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:49, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
::::3 = [[Divide and Conquer]], 8 = [[The Ultimate Doom, Part 1]], 13 = [[Heavy Metal War]], 22 = [[The Autobot Run]], and 32 = [[Auto Berserk]], based on production codes.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:56, 21 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::And that makes no sense we we already know The Autobot Run is very obviously AKOM, which again brings up the question of what the source I found is exactly meaning with its episode order. There's also the fact that the page seem to explicitly mention Heavy Metal War's order in both versions of the series (10 in Japanese, 16 in the original US). So I don't really know what to think.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 14:29, 26 September 2020 (EDT)

== Asking Dery ==

This might be opening a ''terrible'' idea (I've read his talk page), but do you think if anyone could get a hold of Floro Dery he could shed some light on this? He was a design supervisor and ''might'' have some info? I also have no idea if he's lived in the Philippines for all this time but if he was in the animation scene around then he might have a better idea of what studios were operating at the time that could've been the illusive studio. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 13:18, 2 December 2020 (EST)

== Another Possibility ==

Been sitting on this for a while now, but a thought crossed my mind fairly recently. With the reveal that Sei Young was the one responsible (or at least credited for) Surprise Party, it got me to thinking- What if one or more of the episodes attributed to this unknown studio are actually Sei Young's work? Comparing their work on Surprise Party or even Season 2 episodes credited to Toei like Child's Play or The Master Builders to say, Kremzeek or Triple Takeover, they look pretty similar. Call me crazy, but I certainly feel I might have stumbled onto something. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 21:25, 23 January 2021 (EST)

== A Possible Suggestion ==

I know this is probably a longshot, but has anyone actually asked any of the show's animators on the Japanese side of things? Not many of the US-based crew seem willing to answer (presuming they even have the materials to begin with), but I feel like if anyone could get in touch with an animator from the Japan side of the coin. We could hopefully get a better idea as to who did what episode. The problem though, from what I see is two-fold. The first is that I wouldn't know which among us would even know enough Japanese to properly ask the question in the first place. The second is whether or not said animators would even remember working on the show to begin with (assuming they did in the first place). Especially since for most of them it'd be among their first credits, and animators who were active during the 1980s usually seem to ignore that period where Japan got most of America's animation outside of some exceptions. Either way though, I think it'd be worth an attempt if nothing more. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 01:16, 15 July 2022 (EDT)

==Shin Won?==

I tweeted to the Wiki account and [[User:Chris_McFeely|Chris McFeely]] about this last year and promptly forgot all about it, but it's a possible lead. The [https://web.archive.org/web/20211201064759/https://digilander.libero.it/dottor_vaffa/ Megna Co-Productions database] lists the following studios as having worked on Transformers: Toei, Sei Young, Dai Won, Shin Won, Sam Young and Akom. Most of those are accounted for here, except Shin Won, so I did some digging.

According to the [https://www.kmdb.or.kr/db/per/00003442 Korean Movie Database] they were known as "Educational Fairy Tale" (or just Gyoyuk, which I guess is Korean for educational fairy tale - I'm using Google Translate for most of this) until 1986, when they became Shin Won and then "Production Grimi" in the late 90s. They're now defunct, it seems. Their [https://web.archive.org/web/20030215231041fw_/http://www.grimi.co.kr/index02.html official website circa 2003] (thanks to the Wayback Machine) has them claiming credit for work on various anime, Transformers, GI Joe, Jem, Real Ghostbusters, Dennis and, crucially, Teddy Ruxpin. Checking back on Megna, the Shin Won is the ''only'' studio attributed to Teddy Ruxpin. The [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1361 Anime News Network] profile for them has them credited on different shows with everything from "colour co-ordination check" to in-betweening to finish animation to paint to just "animation". So while it's entirely possible their contribution to Transformers was out-source assistance work to Toei or Akom, like Dai Won and Sam Young, that variety of contributions and Teddy Ruxpin suggests they're capable of producing entire episodes independently and so could be the mystery studio.

There are potential issues with this of course. First is that Wikipedia credits Teddy Ruxpin to Atkinson Film-Arts (along with DiC), who I don't know enough about to know whether they animated in-house or out-sourced the main work uncredited. Megna doesn't mention Atkinson at all for Teddy Ruxpin. Second is that Megna doesn't cite its sources, although Shin Won's own website is presumably the source in this case. Would they have reason to lie? Seems unlikely, but can't be ruled out, I guess. I suppose the acid test would be watching some Teddy Ruxpin. [[User:Danja|Danja]] ([[User talk:Danja|talk]]) 07:02, 26 January 2023 (EST)

:It's possible, That database is weird when it comes to listing outsourcing studios. And given how little we know about the studios in question (acid testing is how I was able to deduce some of the efforts of Anime R, Nakamura Pro, and Studio Look for Toei's episodes since two of them --R and Look-- lack websites and the third --Nakamura Pro-- ''has'' a website, but lacks a proper resume thanks to all the work they've done), it's possible we might have Shin Won doing an episode or two on their own. And if so, I can see them handling "Krmezeek", "Triple Takeover" and "The Secret of Omega Supreme" at least, leaving "Make Tracks", "A Prime Problem" and "Auto-Berserk" the remaining outliers if that is the case.

:As far as Teddy Ruxpin is concerned, Atkinson handled most of the pre-production services. The animation, as per usual with DiC, went to Asian studios uncredited (no idea if this tied into union rules being exploited like with Marvel, or DiC just being dicks), so Shin Won being involved might be something to look into so we can try and acid wash some of their episodes. Again, it bites not having the proper documentation for these things.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 05:18, 4 February 2023 (EST)

UPDTATE (since I forgot this thought initially): Is it possible that Shin Won also worked on some of the uglier-looking Toei episodes as well? I'm looking over some of the more infamous ones like "Child's Play" and "Starscream's Brigade" (credited to both Nakamura Pro and Sei Young alongside Toei currently; though I have my doubts about the Korean studio's involvement going over it), and it certainly feels like "Kremzeek" and "Triple Takeover" both have similar faults as the other episodes I just mentioned. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 13:25, 14 February 2023 (EST)

:Speaking of acid tests, that's exactly what I did regarding "Teddy Ruxpin", so I'll mention that I had no help there. Good news is, the Megna database seems to be the most accurate resource to date, so I count this and the fact that most of our "research material" is readily available on youtube as the two most important breakthroughs. Bad news, at least as far as "Teddy" is concerned, is that Megna may only be listing Korean OEM in this case, so stuff has to be missing. "Teddy" makes no sense in that some episodes are clearly done in Japan and some in Korea, but they list a "Kazumi Fukushima" as "animation director" or "animation consultant", but also credit "key animation" to a bunch of people with ''Western'' and ''European'' names! What?!? I was much more successful after watching "Jem", because there are only 11 episodes not produced by Toei, they look quite a bit different from the rest, but also have, to my eyes, no similarity whatsoever to anything on "Transformers". I feel comfortable saying that Shin Won could not have done anything above the level of in-between work. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:40, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

==I'm on a mission to identify all AKOM eps and it's a chore==

Longtime G1 fan, 1st time caller here. I can't say much now, because I have zero free time, but I'm just starting a couple of huge projects relating to a library of G1 episodes I'm editing for my personal collection, and it would likely be of interest to the community here. One project is heavy research on who did what animation. This started because I've been away from the fandom for decades, and noticed recently a hell of a lot of errors in information regarding the animation studios involved. This has been going on since I came across Hasbro Pulse TF eps on youtube several months ago, and you will see tons of comments left by me saying basically those 3 episodes (you know the ones) were absolutely NOT by AKOM, and a bunch of other mistaken assumptions came out of that mistaken assumption. It's amazing that no one seemed to make the connection to other, earlier Marvel shows. Remember "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends"? Since TF first aired, I immediately recognized animation similar to that show. Three eps are by Toei, but for all the rest, the credits say "Produced in association with MiHahn, Inc." They were a South Korean outfit, which according to scant info also outsourced to other studios. Whether any of those are based in the Phillipines, I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned, I go with "suspected to be by MiHahn". I'm maintaining a spreadsheet, and I will take everything else written here into consideration. When I'm finished identifying all AKOM eps to the best of my ability to detect these various animation techniques, I will let folks know. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 20:27, 6 April 2023 (EDT)

:Anything helps, I'm getting really tired of trying to identify episodes by eye to the point I don't know how many I have accurate and how many I'm completely wrong about (the downside to acid testing is that there are plenty of episodes with similar styles). Both for Toei and AKOM alike. This is why I wish we had full production materials, if they still exist, regarding who did what, so can't wait for that spreadsheet. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:31, 8 April 2023 (EDT)

::Agreed with everything you say, but I haven't given up identifying by looking just yet. I now have other asks and thoughts available, '''so here's my update'''. I haven't completely ruled out AKOM possibly subcontracting whoever worked on what I call the three Season 2 "PSE-style" eps (for "Pan Sang East"). It's certainly not in-house. If that's what's happened, then I currently believe the ten non-Toei eps from Season 2 are all AKOM. I left a discussion note in "Only Human", and I'm writing one now for "Triple Takeover". I'm not ready to share the spreadsheet, but all of my thoughts and best guesses so far are now at my user page, and anyone can feel free to discuss there; I promise to consider everything. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 18:20, 6 May 2023 (EDT)

::One more thing, because it occurred to me after being at the chat and after more research: I've said that Sam Young in Season 3 was such trash there's no point in comparing with anything else, but I've just run all the way thru the "Jem" series, and Sam Young's work seems to be quite a bit better, and that makes for a good reminder that '''budget''' may play as much of a role as any studio. We say that "Brigade" looks particularly nasty, so it couldn't be Sei Young, but I do see enough similarities that I don't disbelieve Sei Young involvement; it could be a matter of a lower budget making things worse and smushing the hell out of Powerglide's face, at least in this case. Check out the G.I. Joe episode "Haul Down the Heavens": I'm almost convinced it's the same situation, a really janky version of Sei Young. Some Sei Young stuff in "Defenders of the Earth" can get hella janky too at times. By the same token, Sam Young may have some arguably decent work in the "Jem" series, and then we get G1 "Carnage". I'm actually jealous of how many times Toei's good teams help the ladies out while us "lousy Autobot lovers" get shipped to Korea. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 04:18, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

UPDATE: I don't want to repeat myself since all new info is reflected on my user page, but there are three interesting developments that I'll summarize here. '''First:''' I'm calling it.... "those three" are probably by '''Hanho Heung-Up''', possibly produced by MiHahn. I'm sorry I didn't catch the info earlier at Megna, but their summaries at the "home" page seem to point to this conclusion. '''Second:''' It was hinted at by Danja, but to me is now a serious consideration. That is, what if Shin Won was indeed another AKOM subcontractor? I said before that Shin Won might not have done anything beyond in-betweening, but that was because I assumed they worked for Toei, but if it was AKOM, it'd be nice to hope that would blow this case wide open, especially considering.... '''Third:''' Have you seen TV Tropes lately? suddenly, over the past month there's been a lot of new info entered regarding who did what on G1. Shin Won, Dai Won, Doga Kobo, etc.! I don't trust all of it - some info seems quite implausible - but the most interesting info concerns Shin Won working on episodes I always suspected were from AKOM. I'm considering all of it, but '''''GOT''''' dammit, ''why are there no citations?!?!?'' [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:51, 13 May 2023 (EDT)

== Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment ==

Yo! I think I’m onto something!

I looked at Daewon Media’s page on TV Tropes and looked at the list of 12 Transformers episodes they were sub-contracted (yes, Daewon did '''THAT MANY'''). Auto Berserk was one of them, but in parenthesis was the name of a studio that isn’t normally subcontracted by Toei or AKOM — Sunrise, the studio behind stuff like Gundam & Cowboy Bebop. I had a look at the studios that have subcontracted Sunrise in the past, and all answers landed on Studio Deen, the company behind the Ranma 1/2 anime adaptation.

It’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but I think it’s very possible that the studio behind Auto Berserk & A Prime Problem could very well be Studio Deen. Likewise, for Decepticon Raider & Triple Takeover, the models for the human characters are very ''Spider-Man 1994'' -esque - especially Nimue in Decepticon Raider & the football stadium people in Triple Takeover. Again, it’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but TMS very well could have done Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider.

I’m not entirely confident on who animated Make Tracks now, due to this. The human characters look similar to what Sunrise would do with Cowboy Bebop, but there are some moments where it looks Spider-Man like ("No, Sideswipe… trust him… he’s my friend"), but I’ll keep digging.

Update #1: I checked Sunrise's TV Tropes page and found out that they actually DID do Make Tracks, but ''not'' A Prime Problem. Still 4 episodes down, though - just swap A Prime Problem for Make Tracks. That means now I have to do digging on who was behind A Prime Problem... and that is going to be difficult, same for Secret of Omega Supreme & Kremzeek.

Update #2: I just now - at the time of typing anyway - checked TMS Entertainment's TV Tropes page... and found out that they only did work on the Season 3 episodes Madman's Paradise, Webworld, and Nightmare Planet. So I guess that means them doing Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider is off the table. This might be a bit harder than I thought. XD

Update #3: Yeah, things just got a lot harder - checked Sunrise's official website and there is nothing on anything ''Transformers'' related. So looks like I'm back to Square 1.

[[User:JustACollector|JustACollector]] ([[User talk:JustACollector|talk]]) 12:12, 8 December 2024 (EST)

Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

2024-12-08T19:15:22Z

JustACollector: /* Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment */

I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".

::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".

::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.

::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)

== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==

Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

==Identification criteria?==

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}

== I might have cracked it ==

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.

::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).

::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.

::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").

::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".

::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.

::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".

::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.

::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense...
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)
===A sudden twist!===
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)

AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.

(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

==That's some good work, Lou==

I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

== Carnage in C-Minor ==

Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)

==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==

Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)

== Ashi Productions ==

The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions]]? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST
:The animation style of "Call of the Primitives" is completely different from any of the episodes we've attributed to this studio, so unlikely. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:14, 29 March 2020 (EDT)

== Sei Young Animation Co ==

A possibility worth exploring is Korean company Sei Young Animation Co. Marvel used them for 63 episodes of Defenders Of The Earth in 1985 and 1986. They had a very Toei-esque style, having collaborated with them at various points since 1978. It would make sense if the purpose of sending 10 episodes to other studios in season 2, apart from the immediate benefit of taking pressure off Toei, was a test run before commissioning these studios full-time on other shows (AKOM would gradually become Marvel's primary animator). [[User:Greebtron|Greebtron]] ([[User talk:Greebtron|talk]]) 20:18, 21 April 2020 (EDT)
: I think you might be on to something here, at least with a few of the uglier looking episodes like "Kremzeek". It reminds me a bit of the feel and quality seen in some Toei-associated episodes of the time like "Child's Play" or "The Gambler". Heck, it actually wouldn't surprise me if Sei Young actually did those episodes too (under contract of Toei and not Marvel directly, of course). But that's just my thoughts on the matter, anyway. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 19:43, 20 July 2020 (EDT)

== (Season 3) Toei's 13th episode? ==

So I was skimming through the Season 3 episode articles because this was bothering me, but since "Surprise Party" was recently found out to be a Sei Young episode, that leaves Toei with only twelve confirmed Season 3 episodes, even though their resume says they did thirteen.

So my theories are:

1. Either "Surprise Party" was a Toei episode that Sei Young worked on (which would be expected giving their working relationship) and Sei Young simply sent Marvel the finished episode in Toei's place (I don't know the ins-and-outs of outsourcing animation but I think it's a possibility), leaving "Call of the Primitives" the weird outlier.

OR

2. "Surprise Party" was directly assigned to Sei Young, and "Call of the Primitives" was assigned to Toei, and Toei decided to subcontract the work to another studio (possibly Ashi Productions, going by the trivia note on the episode page). We know AKOM did the same thing with "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human", so it's not without precedent.

I could just be rambling nonsense, and the edit to the "Surprise" article was very recent, but I felt this needed to be brought up. --[[User:TheAmazingPoncho|TheAmazingPoncho]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingPoncho|talk]]) 21:33, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

== A possibility, perhaps? ==

So seeing how we finally found out that "Call' was a Toei episode farmed to another company ([[Studio Look]]), it got me wondering about Ashi Pro's involvement in the series regarding their work on the show and I found [https://w.atwiki.jp/sakuga/?cmd=word&word=%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC&type=&pageid=309 this]. It mentions both Habara's involvement on "Heavy Metal War" and Ashi's overall work on the show to his best recollection. The other episodes featured are labeled as "3, 8, 13, 22 and 32". Problem number 1 is that it's difficult as to what order the list is referring to as the English and Japanese broadcast airings are different to both.

Going by the English order, the episodes consist of "More Than Meets the Eye, Part 3", "S.O.S. Dinobots", "The Ultimate Doom, Part 3", "The Imobilizer" and "The Master Builders". Whereas in Japanese, while the first episode is identical, the other ones in that order consists of "War of the Dinobots", "Traitor", "A Prime Problem" and "The God Gambit". Problem no. 2 with that is with the Japanese order, which just straight on Toei or Korean-contracted-under-Toei titles (barring "Prime Problem", which we know is the work of the still-unidentified mystery studio), so I assume the page meant the original English order, which by extension marks "Roll For It" as a possible Ashi episode due to the similarities between it and "S.O.S." But again, that order is also pretty suspect as neither "Imobilizer" or "Master Builders" look anything like an Ashi-contracted episode and more like one of the Toei-supervised Korean episodes of Season 2.

Still, thought this was interesting all things considered. Any thoughts? [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 17:14, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:What if you exclude the More Than Meets the Eye miniseries from the enumeration? It was produced separately, after all. What are episodes 3, 8, 13, 22, and 32 then? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:00, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:And could it only be referring to Season 2? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:03, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
::Now that's the million dollar question I want to know the answer to, as the page I linked to considers it and the rest of Season 1 as one entity and not two separately produced batches. Not to mention this very wiki doesn't seem to discern the difference either and lumps the pilot in with the rest of the series, so I'm mostly basing my speculations towards that. Also, I think the count is for both, Seasons 1 and 2 if we take that into consideration. Only thing to do now is either ask Habara for clarification or wait until production sheets for the first two seasons surface before making better judgement.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 11:43, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Seasons 1 and 2 use the same format of production codes, but the pilot is separate. The pilot is codes 4023, 4024, and 4025. Season 1 proper runs from 700-01 to 700-13 and Season 2 runs from 700-16 to 700-64. You have to go to the individual episode pages to get these, though. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:49, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
::::3 = [[Divide and Conquer]], 8 = [[The Ultimate Doom, Part 1]], 13 = [[Heavy Metal War]], 22 = [[The Autobot Run]], and 32 = [[Auto Berserk]], based on production codes.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:56, 21 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::And that makes no sense we we already know The Autobot Run is very obviously AKOM, which again brings up the question of what the source I found is exactly meaning with its episode order. There's also the fact that the page seem to explicitly mention Heavy Metal War's order in both versions of the series (10 in Japanese, 16 in the original US). So I don't really know what to think.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 14:29, 26 September 2020 (EDT)

== Asking Dery ==

This might be opening a ''terrible'' idea (I've read his talk page), but do you think if anyone could get a hold of Floro Dery he could shed some light on this? He was a design supervisor and ''might'' have some info? I also have no idea if he's lived in the Philippines for all this time but if he was in the animation scene around then he might have a better idea of what studios were operating at the time that could've been the illusive studio. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 13:18, 2 December 2020 (EST)

== Another Possibility ==

Been sitting on this for a while now, but a thought crossed my mind fairly recently. With the reveal that Sei Young was the one responsible (or at least credited for) Surprise Party, it got me to thinking- What if one or more of the episodes attributed to this unknown studio are actually Sei Young's work? Comparing their work on Surprise Party or even Season 2 episodes credited to Toei like Child's Play or The Master Builders to say, Kremzeek or Triple Takeover, they look pretty similar. Call me crazy, but I certainly feel I might have stumbled onto something. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 21:25, 23 January 2021 (EST)

== A Possible Suggestion ==

I know this is probably a longshot, but has anyone actually asked any of the show's animators on the Japanese side of things? Not many of the US-based crew seem willing to answer (presuming they even have the materials to begin with), but I feel like if anyone could get in touch with an animator from the Japan side of the coin. We could hopefully get a better idea as to who did what episode. The problem though, from what I see is two-fold. The first is that I wouldn't know which among us would even know enough Japanese to properly ask the question in the first place. The second is whether or not said animators would even remember working on the show to begin with (assuming they did in the first place). Especially since for most of them it'd be among their first credits, and animators who were active during the 1980s usually seem to ignore that period where Japan got most of America's animation outside of some exceptions. Either way though, I think it'd be worth an attempt if nothing more. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 01:16, 15 July 2022 (EDT)

==Shin Won?==

I tweeted to the Wiki account and [[User:Chris_McFeely|Chris McFeely]] about this last year and promptly forgot all about it, but it's a possible lead. The [https://web.archive.org/web/20211201064759/https://digilander.libero.it/dottor_vaffa/ Megna Co-Productions database] lists the following studios as having worked on Transformers: Toei, Sei Young, Dai Won, Shin Won, Sam Young and Akom. Most of those are accounted for here, except Shin Won, so I did some digging.

According to the [https://www.kmdb.or.kr/db/per/00003442 Korean Movie Database] they were known as "Educational Fairy Tale" (or just Gyoyuk, which I guess is Korean for educational fairy tale - I'm using Google Translate for most of this) until 1986, when they became Shin Won and then "Production Grimi" in the late 90s. They're now defunct, it seems. Their [https://web.archive.org/web/20030215231041fw_/http://www.grimi.co.kr/index02.html official website circa 2003] (thanks to the Wayback Machine) has them claiming credit for work on various anime, Transformers, GI Joe, Jem, Real Ghostbusters, Dennis and, crucially, Teddy Ruxpin. Checking back on Megna, the Shin Won is the ''only'' studio attributed to Teddy Ruxpin. The [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1361 Anime News Network] profile for them has them credited on different shows with everything from "colour co-ordination check" to in-betweening to finish animation to paint to just "animation". So while it's entirely possible their contribution to Transformers was out-source assistance work to Toei or Akom, like Dai Won and Sam Young, that variety of contributions and Teddy Ruxpin suggests they're capable of producing entire episodes independently and so could be the mystery studio.

There are potential issues with this of course. First is that Wikipedia credits Teddy Ruxpin to Atkinson Film-Arts (along with DiC), who I don't know enough about to know whether they animated in-house or out-sourced the main work uncredited. Megna doesn't mention Atkinson at all for Teddy Ruxpin. Second is that Megna doesn't cite its sources, although Shin Won's own website is presumably the source in this case. Would they have reason to lie? Seems unlikely, but can't be ruled out, I guess. I suppose the acid test would be watching some Teddy Ruxpin. [[User:Danja|Danja]] ([[User talk:Danja|talk]]) 07:02, 26 January 2023 (EST)

:It's possible, That database is weird when it comes to listing outsourcing studios. And given how little we know about the studios in question (acid testing is how I was able to deduce some of the efforts of Anime R, Nakamura Pro, and Studio Look for Toei's episodes since two of them --R and Look-- lack websites and the third --Nakamura Pro-- ''has'' a website, but lacks a proper resume thanks to all the work they've done), it's possible we might have Shin Won doing an episode or two on their own. And if so, I can see them handling "Krmezeek", "Triple Takeover" and "The Secret of Omega Supreme" at least, leaving "Make Tracks", "A Prime Problem" and "Auto-Berserk" the remaining outliers if that is the case.

:As far as Teddy Ruxpin is concerned, Atkinson handled most of the pre-production services. The animation, as per usual with DiC, went to Asian studios uncredited (no idea if this tied into union rules being exploited like with Marvel, or DiC just being dicks), so Shin Won being involved might be something to look into so we can try and acid wash some of their episodes. Again, it bites not having the proper documentation for these things.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 05:18, 4 February 2023 (EST)

UPDTATE (since I forgot this thought initially): Is it possible that Shin Won also worked on some of the uglier-looking Toei episodes as well? I'm looking over some of the more infamous ones like "Child's Play" and "Starscream's Brigade" (credited to both Nakamura Pro and Sei Young alongside Toei currently; though I have my doubts about the Korean studio's involvement going over it), and it certainly feels like "Kremzeek" and "Triple Takeover" both have similar faults as the other episodes I just mentioned. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 13:25, 14 February 2023 (EST)

:Speaking of acid tests, that's exactly what I did regarding "Teddy Ruxpin", so I'll mention that I had no help there. Good news is, the Megna database seems to be the most accurate resource to date, so I count this and the fact that most of our "research material" is readily available on youtube as the two most important breakthroughs. Bad news, at least as far as "Teddy" is concerned, is that Megna may only be listing Korean OEM in this case, so stuff has to be missing. "Teddy" makes no sense in that some episodes are clearly done in Japan and some in Korea, but they list a "Kazumi Fukushima" as "animation director" or "animation consultant", but also credit "key animation" to a bunch of people with ''Western'' and ''European'' names! What?!? I was much more successful after watching "Jem", because there are only 11 episodes not produced by Toei, they look quite a bit different from the rest, but also have, to my eyes, no similarity whatsoever to anything on "Transformers". I feel comfortable saying that Shin Won could not have done anything above the level of in-between work. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:40, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

==I'm on a mission to identify all AKOM eps and it's a chore==

Longtime G1 fan, 1st time caller here. I can't say much now, because I have zero free time, but I'm just starting a couple of huge projects relating to a library of G1 episodes I'm editing for my personal collection, and it would likely be of interest to the community here. One project is heavy research on who did what animation. This started because I've been away from the fandom for decades, and noticed recently a hell of a lot of errors in information regarding the animation studios involved. This has been going on since I came across Hasbro Pulse TF eps on youtube several months ago, and you will see tons of comments left by me saying basically those 3 episodes (you know the ones) were absolutely NOT by AKOM, and a bunch of other mistaken assumptions came out of that mistaken assumption. It's amazing that no one seemed to make the connection to other, earlier Marvel shows. Remember "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends"? Since TF first aired, I immediately recognized animation similar to that show. Three eps are by Toei, but for all the rest, the credits say "Produced in association with MiHahn, Inc." They were a South Korean outfit, which according to scant info also outsourced to other studios. Whether any of those are based in the Phillipines, I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned, I go with "suspected to be by MiHahn". I'm maintaining a spreadsheet, and I will take everything else written here into consideration. When I'm finished identifying all AKOM eps to the best of my ability to detect these various animation techniques, I will let folks know. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 20:27, 6 April 2023 (EDT)

:Anything helps, I'm getting really tired of trying to identify episodes by eye to the point I don't know how many I have accurate and how many I'm completely wrong about (the downside to acid testing is that there are plenty of episodes with similar styles). Both for Toei and AKOM alike. This is why I wish we had full production materials, if they still exist, regarding who did what, so can't wait for that spreadsheet. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:31, 8 April 2023 (EDT)

::Agreed with everything you say, but I haven't given up identifying by looking just yet. I now have other asks and thoughts available, '''so here's my update'''. I haven't completely ruled out AKOM possibly subcontracting whoever worked on what I call the three Season 2 "PSE-style" eps (for "Pan Sang East"). It's certainly not in-house. If that's what's happened, then I currently believe the ten non-Toei eps from Season 2 are all AKOM. I left a discussion note in "Only Human", and I'm writing one now for "Triple Takeover". I'm not ready to share the spreadsheet, but all of my thoughts and best guesses so far are now at my user page, and anyone can feel free to discuss there; I promise to consider everything. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 18:20, 6 May 2023 (EDT)

::One more thing, because it occurred to me after being at the chat and after more research: I've said that Sam Young in Season 3 was such trash there's no point in comparing with anything else, but I've just run all the way thru the "Jem" series, and Sam Young's work seems to be quite a bit better, and that makes for a good reminder that '''budget''' may play as much of a role as any studio. We say that "Brigade" looks particularly nasty, so it couldn't be Sei Young, but I do see enough similarities that I don't disbelieve Sei Young involvement; it could be a matter of a lower budget making things worse and smushing the hell out of Powerglide's face, at least in this case. Check out the G.I. Joe episode "Haul Down the Heavens": I'm almost convinced it's the same situation, a really janky version of Sei Young. Some Sei Young stuff in "Defenders of the Earth" can get hella janky too at times. By the same token, Sam Young may have some arguably decent work in the "Jem" series, and then we get G1 "Carnage". I'm actually jealous of how many times Toei's good teams help the ladies out while us "lousy Autobot lovers" get shipped to Korea. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 04:18, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

UPDATE: I don't want to repeat myself since all new info is reflected on my user page, but there are three interesting developments that I'll summarize here. '''First:''' I'm calling it.... "those three" are probably by '''Hanho Heung-Up''', possibly produced by MiHahn. I'm sorry I didn't catch the info earlier at Megna, but their summaries at the "home" page seem to point to this conclusion. '''Second:''' It was hinted at by Danja, but to me is now a serious consideration. That is, what if Shin Won was indeed another AKOM subcontractor? I said before that Shin Won might not have done anything beyond in-betweening, but that was because I assumed they worked for Toei, but if it was AKOM, it'd be nice to hope that would blow this case wide open, especially considering.... '''Third:''' Have you seen TV Tropes lately? suddenly, over the past month there's been a lot of new info entered regarding who did what on G1. Shin Won, Dai Won, Doga Kobo, etc.! I don't trust all of it - some info seems quite implausible - but the most interesting info concerns Shin Won working on episodes I always suspected were from AKOM. I'm considering all of it, but '''''GOT''''' dammit, ''why are there no citations?!?!?'' [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:51, 13 May 2023 (EDT)

== Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment ==

Yo! I think I’m onto something!

I looked at Daewon Media’s page on TV Tropes and looked at the list of 12 Transformers episodes they were sub-contracted (yes, Daewon did '''THAT MANY'''). Auto Berserk was one of them, but in parenthesis was the name of a studio that isn’t normally subcontracted by Toei or AKOM — Sunrise, the studio behind stuff like Gundam & Cowboy Bebop. I had a look at the studios that have subcontracted Sunrise in the past, and all answers landed on Studio Deen, the company behind the Ranma 1/2 anime adaptation.

It’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but I think it’s very possible that the studio behind Auto Berserk & A Prime Problem could very well be Studio Deen. Likewise, for Decepticon Raider & Triple Takeover, the models for the human characters are very ''Spider-Man 1994'' -esque - especially Nimue in Decepticon Raider & the football stadium people in Triple Takeover. Again, it’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but TMS very well could have done Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider.

I’m not entirely confident on who animated Make Tracks now, due to this. The human characters look similar to what Sunrise would do with Cowboy Bebop, but there are some moments where it looks Spider-Man like ("No, Sideswipe… trust him… he’s my friend"), but I’ll keep digging.

Update #1: I checked Sunrise's TV Tropes page and found out that they actually DID do Make Tracks, but ''not'' A Prime Problem. Still 4 episodes down, though - just swap A Prime Problem for Make Tracks. That means now I have to do digging on who was behind A Prime Problem... and that is going to be difficult, same for Secret of Omega Supreme & Kremzeek.

Update #2: I just now - at the time of typing anyway - checked TMS Entertainment's TV Tropes page... and found out that they only did work on the Season 3 episodes Madman's Paradise, Webworld, and Nightmare Planet. So I guess that means them doing Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider is off the table. This might be a bit harder than I thought. XD

[[User:JustACollector|JustACollector]] ([[User talk:JustACollector|talk]]) 12:12, 8 December 2024 (EST)

Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

2024-12-08T19:11:26Z

JustACollector: /* Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment */

I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".

::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".

::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.

::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)

== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==

Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

==Identification criteria?==

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}

== I might have cracked it ==

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.

::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).

::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.

::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").

::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".

::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.

::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".

::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.

::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense...
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)
===A sudden twist!===
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)

AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.

(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

==That's some good work, Lou==

I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

== Carnage in C-Minor ==

Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)

==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==

Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)

== Ashi Productions ==

The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions]]? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST
:The animation style of "Call of the Primitives" is completely different from any of the episodes we've attributed to this studio, so unlikely. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:14, 29 March 2020 (EDT)

== Sei Young Animation Co ==

A possibility worth exploring is Korean company Sei Young Animation Co. Marvel used them for 63 episodes of Defenders Of The Earth in 1985 and 1986. They had a very Toei-esque style, having collaborated with them at various points since 1978. It would make sense if the purpose of sending 10 episodes to other studios in season 2, apart from the immediate benefit of taking pressure off Toei, was a test run before commissioning these studios full-time on other shows (AKOM would gradually become Marvel's primary animator). [[User:Greebtron|Greebtron]] ([[User talk:Greebtron|talk]]) 20:18, 21 April 2020 (EDT)
: I think you might be on to something here, at least with a few of the uglier looking episodes like "Kremzeek". It reminds me a bit of the feel and quality seen in some Toei-associated episodes of the time like "Child's Play" or "The Gambler". Heck, it actually wouldn't surprise me if Sei Young actually did those episodes too (under contract of Toei and not Marvel directly, of course). But that's just my thoughts on the matter, anyway. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 19:43, 20 July 2020 (EDT)

== (Season 3) Toei's 13th episode? ==

So I was skimming through the Season 3 episode articles because this was bothering me, but since "Surprise Party" was recently found out to be a Sei Young episode, that leaves Toei with only twelve confirmed Season 3 episodes, even though their resume says they did thirteen.

So my theories are:

1. Either "Surprise Party" was a Toei episode that Sei Young worked on (which would be expected giving their working relationship) and Sei Young simply sent Marvel the finished episode in Toei's place (I don't know the ins-and-outs of outsourcing animation but I think it's a possibility), leaving "Call of the Primitives" the weird outlier.

OR

2. "Surprise Party" was directly assigned to Sei Young, and "Call of the Primitives" was assigned to Toei, and Toei decided to subcontract the work to another studio (possibly Ashi Productions, going by the trivia note on the episode page). We know AKOM did the same thing with "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human", so it's not without precedent.

I could just be rambling nonsense, and the edit to the "Surprise" article was very recent, but I felt this needed to be brought up. --[[User:TheAmazingPoncho|TheAmazingPoncho]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingPoncho|talk]]) 21:33, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

== A possibility, perhaps? ==

So seeing how we finally found out that "Call' was a Toei episode farmed to another company ([[Studio Look]]), it got me wondering about Ashi Pro's involvement in the series regarding their work on the show and I found [https://w.atwiki.jp/sakuga/?cmd=word&word=%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC&type=&pageid=309 this]. It mentions both Habara's involvement on "Heavy Metal War" and Ashi's overall work on the show to his best recollection. The other episodes featured are labeled as "3, 8, 13, 22 and 32". Problem number 1 is that it's difficult as to what order the list is referring to as the English and Japanese broadcast airings are different to both.

Going by the English order, the episodes consist of "More Than Meets the Eye, Part 3", "S.O.S. Dinobots", "The Ultimate Doom, Part 3", "The Imobilizer" and "The Master Builders". Whereas in Japanese, while the first episode is identical, the other ones in that order consists of "War of the Dinobots", "Traitor", "A Prime Problem" and "The God Gambit". Problem no. 2 with that is with the Japanese order, which just straight on Toei or Korean-contracted-under-Toei titles (barring "Prime Problem", which we know is the work of the still-unidentified mystery studio), so I assume the page meant the original English order, which by extension marks "Roll For It" as a possible Ashi episode due to the similarities between it and "S.O.S." But again, that order is also pretty suspect as neither "Imobilizer" or "Master Builders" look anything like an Ashi-contracted episode and more like one of the Toei-supervised Korean episodes of Season 2.

Still, thought this was interesting all things considered. Any thoughts? [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 17:14, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:What if you exclude the More Than Meets the Eye miniseries from the enumeration? It was produced separately, after all. What are episodes 3, 8, 13, 22, and 32 then? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:00, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:And could it only be referring to Season 2? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:03, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
::Now that's the million dollar question I want to know the answer to, as the page I linked to considers it and the rest of Season 1 as one entity and not two separately produced batches. Not to mention this very wiki doesn't seem to discern the difference either and lumps the pilot in with the rest of the series, so I'm mostly basing my speculations towards that. Also, I think the count is for both, Seasons 1 and 2 if we take that into consideration. Only thing to do now is either ask Habara for clarification or wait until production sheets for the first two seasons surface before making better judgement.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 11:43, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Seasons 1 and 2 use the same format of production codes, but the pilot is separate. The pilot is codes 4023, 4024, and 4025. Season 1 proper runs from 700-01 to 700-13 and Season 2 runs from 700-16 to 700-64. You have to go to the individual episode pages to get these, though. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:49, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
::::3 = [[Divide and Conquer]], 8 = [[The Ultimate Doom, Part 1]], 13 = [[Heavy Metal War]], 22 = [[The Autobot Run]], and 32 = [[Auto Berserk]], based on production codes.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:56, 21 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::And that makes no sense we we already know The Autobot Run is very obviously AKOM, which again brings up the question of what the source I found is exactly meaning with its episode order. There's also the fact that the page seem to explicitly mention Heavy Metal War's order in both versions of the series (10 in Japanese, 16 in the original US). So I don't really know what to think.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 14:29, 26 September 2020 (EDT)

== Asking Dery ==

This might be opening a ''terrible'' idea (I've read his talk page), but do you think if anyone could get a hold of Floro Dery he could shed some light on this? He was a design supervisor and ''might'' have some info? I also have no idea if he's lived in the Philippines for all this time but if he was in the animation scene around then he might have a better idea of what studios were operating at the time that could've been the illusive studio. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 13:18, 2 December 2020 (EST)

== Another Possibility ==

Been sitting on this for a while now, but a thought crossed my mind fairly recently. With the reveal that Sei Young was the one responsible (or at least credited for) Surprise Party, it got me to thinking- What if one or more of the episodes attributed to this unknown studio are actually Sei Young's work? Comparing their work on Surprise Party or even Season 2 episodes credited to Toei like Child's Play or The Master Builders to say, Kremzeek or Triple Takeover, they look pretty similar. Call me crazy, but I certainly feel I might have stumbled onto something. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 21:25, 23 January 2021 (EST)

== A Possible Suggestion ==

I know this is probably a longshot, but has anyone actually asked any of the show's animators on the Japanese side of things? Not many of the US-based crew seem willing to answer (presuming they even have the materials to begin with), but I feel like if anyone could get in touch with an animator from the Japan side of the coin. We could hopefully get a better idea as to who did what episode. The problem though, from what I see is two-fold. The first is that I wouldn't know which among us would even know enough Japanese to properly ask the question in the first place. The second is whether or not said animators would even remember working on the show to begin with (assuming they did in the first place). Especially since for most of them it'd be among their first credits, and animators who were active during the 1980s usually seem to ignore that period where Japan got most of America's animation outside of some exceptions. Either way though, I think it'd be worth an attempt if nothing more. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 01:16, 15 July 2022 (EDT)

==Shin Won?==

I tweeted to the Wiki account and [[User:Chris_McFeely|Chris McFeely]] about this last year and promptly forgot all about it, but it's a possible lead. The [https://web.archive.org/web/20211201064759/https://digilander.libero.it/dottor_vaffa/ Megna Co-Productions database] lists the following studios as having worked on Transformers: Toei, Sei Young, Dai Won, Shin Won, Sam Young and Akom. Most of those are accounted for here, except Shin Won, so I did some digging.

According to the [https://www.kmdb.or.kr/db/per/00003442 Korean Movie Database] they were known as "Educational Fairy Tale" (or just Gyoyuk, which I guess is Korean for educational fairy tale - I'm using Google Translate for most of this) until 1986, when they became Shin Won and then "Production Grimi" in the late 90s. They're now defunct, it seems. Their [https://web.archive.org/web/20030215231041fw_/http://www.grimi.co.kr/index02.html official website circa 2003] (thanks to the Wayback Machine) has them claiming credit for work on various anime, Transformers, GI Joe, Jem, Real Ghostbusters, Dennis and, crucially, Teddy Ruxpin. Checking back on Megna, the Shin Won is the ''only'' studio attributed to Teddy Ruxpin. The [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1361 Anime News Network] profile for them has them credited on different shows with everything from "colour co-ordination check" to in-betweening to finish animation to paint to just "animation". So while it's entirely possible their contribution to Transformers was out-source assistance work to Toei or Akom, like Dai Won and Sam Young, that variety of contributions and Teddy Ruxpin suggests they're capable of producing entire episodes independently and so could be the mystery studio.

There are potential issues with this of course. First is that Wikipedia credits Teddy Ruxpin to Atkinson Film-Arts (along with DiC), who I don't know enough about to know whether they animated in-house or out-sourced the main work uncredited. Megna doesn't mention Atkinson at all for Teddy Ruxpin. Second is that Megna doesn't cite its sources, although Shin Won's own website is presumably the source in this case. Would they have reason to lie? Seems unlikely, but can't be ruled out, I guess. I suppose the acid test would be watching some Teddy Ruxpin. [[User:Danja|Danja]] ([[User talk:Danja|talk]]) 07:02, 26 January 2023 (EST)

:It's possible, That database is weird when it comes to listing outsourcing studios. And given how little we know about the studios in question (acid testing is how I was able to deduce some of the efforts of Anime R, Nakamura Pro, and Studio Look for Toei's episodes since two of them --R and Look-- lack websites and the third --Nakamura Pro-- ''has'' a website, but lacks a proper resume thanks to all the work they've done), it's possible we might have Shin Won doing an episode or two on their own. And if so, I can see them handling "Krmezeek", "Triple Takeover" and "The Secret of Omega Supreme" at least, leaving "Make Tracks", "A Prime Problem" and "Auto-Berserk" the remaining outliers if that is the case.

:As far as Teddy Ruxpin is concerned, Atkinson handled most of the pre-production services. The animation, as per usual with DiC, went to Asian studios uncredited (no idea if this tied into union rules being exploited like with Marvel, or DiC just being dicks), so Shin Won being involved might be something to look into so we can try and acid wash some of their episodes. Again, it bites not having the proper documentation for these things.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 05:18, 4 February 2023 (EST)

UPDTATE (since I forgot this thought initially): Is it possible that Shin Won also worked on some of the uglier-looking Toei episodes as well? I'm looking over some of the more infamous ones like "Child's Play" and "Starscream's Brigade" (credited to both Nakamura Pro and Sei Young alongside Toei currently; though I have my doubts about the Korean studio's involvement going over it), and it certainly feels like "Kremzeek" and "Triple Takeover" both have similar faults as the other episodes I just mentioned. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 13:25, 14 February 2023 (EST)

:Speaking of acid tests, that's exactly what I did regarding "Teddy Ruxpin", so I'll mention that I had no help there. Good news is, the Megna database seems to be the most accurate resource to date, so I count this and the fact that most of our "research material" is readily available on youtube as the two most important breakthroughs. Bad news, at least as far as "Teddy" is concerned, is that Megna may only be listing Korean OEM in this case, so stuff has to be missing. "Teddy" makes no sense in that some episodes are clearly done in Japan and some in Korea, but they list a "Kazumi Fukushima" as "animation director" or "animation consultant", but also credit "key animation" to a bunch of people with ''Western'' and ''European'' names! What?!? I was much more successful after watching "Jem", because there are only 11 episodes not produced by Toei, they look quite a bit different from the rest, but also have, to my eyes, no similarity whatsoever to anything on "Transformers". I feel comfortable saying that Shin Won could not have done anything above the level of in-between work. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:40, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

==I'm on a mission to identify all AKOM eps and it's a chore==

Longtime G1 fan, 1st time caller here. I can't say much now, because I have zero free time, but I'm just starting a couple of huge projects relating to a library of G1 episodes I'm editing for my personal collection, and it would likely be of interest to the community here. One project is heavy research on who did what animation. This started because I've been away from the fandom for decades, and noticed recently a hell of a lot of errors in information regarding the animation studios involved. This has been going on since I came across Hasbro Pulse TF eps on youtube several months ago, and you will see tons of comments left by me saying basically those 3 episodes (you know the ones) were absolutely NOT by AKOM, and a bunch of other mistaken assumptions came out of that mistaken assumption. It's amazing that no one seemed to make the connection to other, earlier Marvel shows. Remember "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends"? Since TF first aired, I immediately recognized animation similar to that show. Three eps are by Toei, but for all the rest, the credits say "Produced in association with MiHahn, Inc." They were a South Korean outfit, which according to scant info also outsourced to other studios. Whether any of those are based in the Phillipines, I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned, I go with "suspected to be by MiHahn". I'm maintaining a spreadsheet, and I will take everything else written here into consideration. When I'm finished identifying all AKOM eps to the best of my ability to detect these various animation techniques, I will let folks know. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 20:27, 6 April 2023 (EDT)

:Anything helps, I'm getting really tired of trying to identify episodes by eye to the point I don't know how many I have accurate and how many I'm completely wrong about (the downside to acid testing is that there are plenty of episodes with similar styles). Both for Toei and AKOM alike. This is why I wish we had full production materials, if they still exist, regarding who did what, so can't wait for that spreadsheet. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:31, 8 April 2023 (EDT)

::Agreed with everything you say, but I haven't given up identifying by looking just yet. I now have other asks and thoughts available, '''so here's my update'''. I haven't completely ruled out AKOM possibly subcontracting whoever worked on what I call the three Season 2 "PSE-style" eps (for "Pan Sang East"). It's certainly not in-house. If that's what's happened, then I currently believe the ten non-Toei eps from Season 2 are all AKOM. I left a discussion note in "Only Human", and I'm writing one now for "Triple Takeover". I'm not ready to share the spreadsheet, but all of my thoughts and best guesses so far are now at my user page, and anyone can feel free to discuss there; I promise to consider everything. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 18:20, 6 May 2023 (EDT)

::One more thing, because it occurred to me after being at the chat and after more research: I've said that Sam Young in Season 3 was such trash there's no point in comparing with anything else, but I've just run all the way thru the "Jem" series, and Sam Young's work seems to be quite a bit better, and that makes for a good reminder that '''budget''' may play as much of a role as any studio. We say that "Brigade" looks particularly nasty, so it couldn't be Sei Young, but I do see enough similarities that I don't disbelieve Sei Young involvement; it could be a matter of a lower budget making things worse and smushing the hell out of Powerglide's face, at least in this case. Check out the G.I. Joe episode "Haul Down the Heavens": I'm almost convinced it's the same situation, a really janky version of Sei Young. Some Sei Young stuff in "Defenders of the Earth" can get hella janky too at times. By the same token, Sam Young may have some arguably decent work in the "Jem" series, and then we get G1 "Carnage". I'm actually jealous of how many times Toei's good teams help the ladies out while us "lousy Autobot lovers" get shipped to Korea. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 04:18, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

UPDATE: I don't want to repeat myself since all new info is reflected on my user page, but there are three interesting developments that I'll summarize here. '''First:''' I'm calling it.... "those three" are probably by '''Hanho Heung-Up''', possibly produced by MiHahn. I'm sorry I didn't catch the info earlier at Megna, but their summaries at the "home" page seem to point to this conclusion. '''Second:''' It was hinted at by Danja, but to me is now a serious consideration. That is, what if Shin Won was indeed another AKOM subcontractor? I said before that Shin Won might not have done anything beyond in-betweening, but that was because I assumed they worked for Toei, but if it was AKOM, it'd be nice to hope that would blow this case wide open, especially considering.... '''Third:''' Have you seen TV Tropes lately? suddenly, over the past month there's been a lot of new info entered regarding who did what on G1. Shin Won, Dai Won, Doga Kobo, etc.! I don't trust all of it - some info seems quite implausible - but the most interesting info concerns Shin Won working on episodes I always suspected were from AKOM. I'm considering all of it, but '''''GOT''''' dammit, ''why are there no citations?!?!?'' [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:51, 13 May 2023 (EDT)

== Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment ==

Yo! I think I’m onto something!

I looked at Daewon Media’s page on TV Tropes and looked at the list of 12 Transformers episodes they were sub-contracted (yes, Daewon did '''THAT MANY'''). Auto Berserk was one of them, but in parenthesis was the name of a studio that isn’t normally subcontracted by Toei or AKOM — Sunrise, the studio behind stuff like Gundam & Cowboy Bebop. I had a look at the studios that have subcontracted Sunrise in the past, and all answers landed on Studio Deen, the company behind the Ranma 1/2 anime adaptation.

It’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but I think it’s very possible that the studio behind Auto Berserk & A Prime Problem could very well be Studio Deen. Likewise, for Decepticon Raider & Triple Takeover, the models for the human characters are very ''Spider-Man 1994'' -esque - especially Nimue in Decepticon Raider & the football stadium people in Triple Takeover. Again, it’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but TMS very well could have done Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider.

I’m not entirely confident on who animated Make Tracks now, due to this. The human characters look similar to what Sunrise would do with Cowboy Bebop, but there are some moments where it looks Spider-Man like ("No, Sideswipe… trust him… he’s my friend"), but I’ll keep digging.

Update #1: I checked Sunrise's TV Tropes page and found out that they actually DID do Make Tracks, but ''not'' A Prime Problem. Still 4 episodes down, though - just swap A Prime Problem for Make Tracks. That means now I have to do digging on who was behind A Prime Problem... and that is going to be difficult, same for Secret of Omega Supreme & Kremzeek.

[[User:JustACollector|JustACollector]] ([[User talk:JustACollector|talk]]) 12:12, 8 December 2024 (EST)

Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

2024-12-08T18:48:39Z

JustACollector: /* Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment */

I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".

::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".

::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.

::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)

== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==

Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

==Identification criteria?==

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}

== I might have cracked it ==

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.

::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).

::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.

::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").

::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".

::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.

::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".

::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.

::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense...
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)
===A sudden twist!===
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)

AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.

(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

==That's some good work, Lou==

I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

== Carnage in C-Minor ==

Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)

==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==

Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)

== Ashi Productions ==

The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions]]? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST
:The animation style of "Call of the Primitives" is completely different from any of the episodes we've attributed to this studio, so unlikely. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:14, 29 March 2020 (EDT)

== Sei Young Animation Co ==

A possibility worth exploring is Korean company Sei Young Animation Co. Marvel used them for 63 episodes of Defenders Of The Earth in 1985 and 1986. They had a very Toei-esque style, having collaborated with them at various points since 1978. It would make sense if the purpose of sending 10 episodes to other studios in season 2, apart from the immediate benefit of taking pressure off Toei, was a test run before commissioning these studios full-time on other shows (AKOM would gradually become Marvel's primary animator). [[User:Greebtron|Greebtron]] ([[User talk:Greebtron|talk]]) 20:18, 21 April 2020 (EDT)
: I think you might be on to something here, at least with a few of the uglier looking episodes like "Kremzeek". It reminds me a bit of the feel and quality seen in some Toei-associated episodes of the time like "Child's Play" or "The Gambler". Heck, it actually wouldn't surprise me if Sei Young actually did those episodes too (under contract of Toei and not Marvel directly, of course). But that's just my thoughts on the matter, anyway. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 19:43, 20 July 2020 (EDT)

== (Season 3) Toei's 13th episode? ==

So I was skimming through the Season 3 episode articles because this was bothering me, but since "Surprise Party" was recently found out to be a Sei Young episode, that leaves Toei with only twelve confirmed Season 3 episodes, even though their resume says they did thirteen.

So my theories are:

1. Either "Surprise Party" was a Toei episode that Sei Young worked on (which would be expected giving their working relationship) and Sei Young simply sent Marvel the finished episode in Toei's place (I don't know the ins-and-outs of outsourcing animation but I think it's a possibility), leaving "Call of the Primitives" the weird outlier.

OR

2. "Surprise Party" was directly assigned to Sei Young, and "Call of the Primitives" was assigned to Toei, and Toei decided to subcontract the work to another studio (possibly Ashi Productions, going by the trivia note on the episode page). We know AKOM did the same thing with "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human", so it's not without precedent.

I could just be rambling nonsense, and the edit to the "Surprise" article was very recent, but I felt this needed to be brought up. --[[User:TheAmazingPoncho|TheAmazingPoncho]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingPoncho|talk]]) 21:33, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

== A possibility, perhaps? ==

So seeing how we finally found out that "Call' was a Toei episode farmed to another company ([[Studio Look]]), it got me wondering about Ashi Pro's involvement in the series regarding their work on the show and I found [https://w.atwiki.jp/sakuga/?cmd=word&word=%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC&type=&pageid=309 this]. It mentions both Habara's involvement on "Heavy Metal War" and Ashi's overall work on the show to his best recollection. The other episodes featured are labeled as "3, 8, 13, 22 and 32". Problem number 1 is that it's difficult as to what order the list is referring to as the English and Japanese broadcast airings are different to both.

Going by the English order, the episodes consist of "More Than Meets the Eye, Part 3", "S.O.S. Dinobots", "The Ultimate Doom, Part 3", "The Imobilizer" and "The Master Builders". Whereas in Japanese, while the first episode is identical, the other ones in that order consists of "War of the Dinobots", "Traitor", "A Prime Problem" and "The God Gambit". Problem no. 2 with that is with the Japanese order, which just straight on Toei or Korean-contracted-under-Toei titles (barring "Prime Problem", which we know is the work of the still-unidentified mystery studio), so I assume the page meant the original English order, which by extension marks "Roll For It" as a possible Ashi episode due to the similarities between it and "S.O.S." But again, that order is also pretty suspect as neither "Imobilizer" or "Master Builders" look anything like an Ashi-contracted episode and more like one of the Toei-supervised Korean episodes of Season 2.

Still, thought this was interesting all things considered. Any thoughts? [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 17:14, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:What if you exclude the More Than Meets the Eye miniseries from the enumeration? It was produced separately, after all. What are episodes 3, 8, 13, 22, and 32 then? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:00, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:And could it only be referring to Season 2? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:03, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
::Now that's the million dollar question I want to know the answer to, as the page I linked to considers it and the rest of Season 1 as one entity and not two separately produced batches. Not to mention this very wiki doesn't seem to discern the difference either and lumps the pilot in with the rest of the series, so I'm mostly basing my speculations towards that. Also, I think the count is for both, Seasons 1 and 2 if we take that into consideration. Only thing to do now is either ask Habara for clarification or wait until production sheets for the first two seasons surface before making better judgement.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 11:43, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Seasons 1 and 2 use the same format of production codes, but the pilot is separate. The pilot is codes 4023, 4024, and 4025. Season 1 proper runs from 700-01 to 700-13 and Season 2 runs from 700-16 to 700-64. You have to go to the individual episode pages to get these, though. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:49, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
::::3 = [[Divide and Conquer]], 8 = [[The Ultimate Doom, Part 1]], 13 = [[Heavy Metal War]], 22 = [[The Autobot Run]], and 32 = [[Auto Berserk]], based on production codes.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:56, 21 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::And that makes no sense we we already know The Autobot Run is very obviously AKOM, which again brings up the question of what the source I found is exactly meaning with its episode order. There's also the fact that the page seem to explicitly mention Heavy Metal War's order in both versions of the series (10 in Japanese, 16 in the original US). So I don't really know what to think.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 14:29, 26 September 2020 (EDT)

== Asking Dery ==

This might be opening a ''terrible'' idea (I've read his talk page), but do you think if anyone could get a hold of Floro Dery he could shed some light on this? He was a design supervisor and ''might'' have some info? I also have no idea if he's lived in the Philippines for all this time but if he was in the animation scene around then he might have a better idea of what studios were operating at the time that could've been the illusive studio. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 13:18, 2 December 2020 (EST)

== Another Possibility ==

Been sitting on this for a while now, but a thought crossed my mind fairly recently. With the reveal that Sei Young was the one responsible (or at least credited for) Surprise Party, it got me to thinking- What if one or more of the episodes attributed to this unknown studio are actually Sei Young's work? Comparing their work on Surprise Party or even Season 2 episodes credited to Toei like Child's Play or The Master Builders to say, Kremzeek or Triple Takeover, they look pretty similar. Call me crazy, but I certainly feel I might have stumbled onto something. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 21:25, 23 January 2021 (EST)

== A Possible Suggestion ==

I know this is probably a longshot, but has anyone actually asked any of the show's animators on the Japanese side of things? Not many of the US-based crew seem willing to answer (presuming they even have the materials to begin with), but I feel like if anyone could get in touch with an animator from the Japan side of the coin. We could hopefully get a better idea as to who did what episode. The problem though, from what I see is two-fold. The first is that I wouldn't know which among us would even know enough Japanese to properly ask the question in the first place. The second is whether or not said animators would even remember working on the show to begin with (assuming they did in the first place). Especially since for most of them it'd be among their first credits, and animators who were active during the 1980s usually seem to ignore that period where Japan got most of America's animation outside of some exceptions. Either way though, I think it'd be worth an attempt if nothing more. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 01:16, 15 July 2022 (EDT)

==Shin Won?==

I tweeted to the Wiki account and [[User:Chris_McFeely|Chris McFeely]] about this last year and promptly forgot all about it, but it's a possible lead. The [https://web.archive.org/web/20211201064759/https://digilander.libero.it/dottor_vaffa/ Megna Co-Productions database] lists the following studios as having worked on Transformers: Toei, Sei Young, Dai Won, Shin Won, Sam Young and Akom. Most of those are accounted for here, except Shin Won, so I did some digging.

According to the [https://www.kmdb.or.kr/db/per/00003442 Korean Movie Database] they were known as "Educational Fairy Tale" (or just Gyoyuk, which I guess is Korean for educational fairy tale - I'm using Google Translate for most of this) until 1986, when they became Shin Won and then "Production Grimi" in the late 90s. They're now defunct, it seems. Their [https://web.archive.org/web/20030215231041fw_/http://www.grimi.co.kr/index02.html official website circa 2003] (thanks to the Wayback Machine) has them claiming credit for work on various anime, Transformers, GI Joe, Jem, Real Ghostbusters, Dennis and, crucially, Teddy Ruxpin. Checking back on Megna, the Shin Won is the ''only'' studio attributed to Teddy Ruxpin. The [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1361 Anime News Network] profile for them has them credited on different shows with everything from "colour co-ordination check" to in-betweening to finish animation to paint to just "animation". So while it's entirely possible their contribution to Transformers was out-source assistance work to Toei or Akom, like Dai Won and Sam Young, that variety of contributions and Teddy Ruxpin suggests they're capable of producing entire episodes independently and so could be the mystery studio.

There are potential issues with this of course. First is that Wikipedia credits Teddy Ruxpin to Atkinson Film-Arts (along with DiC), who I don't know enough about to know whether they animated in-house or out-sourced the main work uncredited. Megna doesn't mention Atkinson at all for Teddy Ruxpin. Second is that Megna doesn't cite its sources, although Shin Won's own website is presumably the source in this case. Would they have reason to lie? Seems unlikely, but can't be ruled out, I guess. I suppose the acid test would be watching some Teddy Ruxpin. [[User:Danja|Danja]] ([[User talk:Danja|talk]]) 07:02, 26 January 2023 (EST)

:It's possible, That database is weird when it comes to listing outsourcing studios. And given how little we know about the studios in question (acid testing is how I was able to deduce some of the efforts of Anime R, Nakamura Pro, and Studio Look for Toei's episodes since two of them --R and Look-- lack websites and the third --Nakamura Pro-- ''has'' a website, but lacks a proper resume thanks to all the work they've done), it's possible we might have Shin Won doing an episode or two on their own. And if so, I can see them handling "Krmezeek", "Triple Takeover" and "The Secret of Omega Supreme" at least, leaving "Make Tracks", "A Prime Problem" and "Auto-Berserk" the remaining outliers if that is the case.

:As far as Teddy Ruxpin is concerned, Atkinson handled most of the pre-production services. The animation, as per usual with DiC, went to Asian studios uncredited (no idea if this tied into union rules being exploited like with Marvel, or DiC just being dicks), so Shin Won being involved might be something to look into so we can try and acid wash some of their episodes. Again, it bites not having the proper documentation for these things.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 05:18, 4 February 2023 (EST)

UPDTATE (since I forgot this thought initially): Is it possible that Shin Won also worked on some of the uglier-looking Toei episodes as well? I'm looking over some of the more infamous ones like "Child's Play" and "Starscream's Brigade" (credited to both Nakamura Pro and Sei Young alongside Toei currently; though I have my doubts about the Korean studio's involvement going over it), and it certainly feels like "Kremzeek" and "Triple Takeover" both have similar faults as the other episodes I just mentioned. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 13:25, 14 February 2023 (EST)

:Speaking of acid tests, that's exactly what I did regarding "Teddy Ruxpin", so I'll mention that I had no help there. Good news is, the Megna database seems to be the most accurate resource to date, so I count this and the fact that most of our "research material" is readily available on youtube as the two most important breakthroughs. Bad news, at least as far as "Teddy" is concerned, is that Megna may only be listing Korean OEM in this case, so stuff has to be missing. "Teddy" makes no sense in that some episodes are clearly done in Japan and some in Korea, but they list a "Kazumi Fukushima" as "animation director" or "animation consultant", but also credit "key animation" to a bunch of people with ''Western'' and ''European'' names! What?!? I was much more successful after watching "Jem", because there are only 11 episodes not produced by Toei, they look quite a bit different from the rest, but also have, to my eyes, no similarity whatsoever to anything on "Transformers". I feel comfortable saying that Shin Won could not have done anything above the level of in-between work. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:40, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

==I'm on a mission to identify all AKOM eps and it's a chore==

Longtime G1 fan, 1st time caller here. I can't say much now, because I have zero free time, but I'm just starting a couple of huge projects relating to a library of G1 episodes I'm editing for my personal collection, and it would likely be of interest to the community here. One project is heavy research on who did what animation. This started because I've been away from the fandom for decades, and noticed recently a hell of a lot of errors in information regarding the animation studios involved. This has been going on since I came across Hasbro Pulse TF eps on youtube several months ago, and you will see tons of comments left by me saying basically those 3 episodes (you know the ones) were absolutely NOT by AKOM, and a bunch of other mistaken assumptions came out of that mistaken assumption. It's amazing that no one seemed to make the connection to other, earlier Marvel shows. Remember "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends"? Since TF first aired, I immediately recognized animation similar to that show. Three eps are by Toei, but for all the rest, the credits say "Produced in association with MiHahn, Inc." They were a South Korean outfit, which according to scant info also outsourced to other studios. Whether any of those are based in the Phillipines, I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned, I go with "suspected to be by MiHahn". I'm maintaining a spreadsheet, and I will take everything else written here into consideration. When I'm finished identifying all AKOM eps to the best of my ability to detect these various animation techniques, I will let folks know. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 20:27, 6 April 2023 (EDT)

:Anything helps, I'm getting really tired of trying to identify episodes by eye to the point I don't know how many I have accurate and how many I'm completely wrong about (the downside to acid testing is that there are plenty of episodes with similar styles). Both for Toei and AKOM alike. This is why I wish we had full production materials, if they still exist, regarding who did what, so can't wait for that spreadsheet. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:31, 8 April 2023 (EDT)

::Agreed with everything you say, but I haven't given up identifying by looking just yet. I now have other asks and thoughts available, '''so here's my update'''. I haven't completely ruled out AKOM possibly subcontracting whoever worked on what I call the three Season 2 "PSE-style" eps (for "Pan Sang East"). It's certainly not in-house. If that's what's happened, then I currently believe the ten non-Toei eps from Season 2 are all AKOM. I left a discussion note in "Only Human", and I'm writing one now for "Triple Takeover". I'm not ready to share the spreadsheet, but all of my thoughts and best guesses so far are now at my user page, and anyone can feel free to discuss there; I promise to consider everything. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 18:20, 6 May 2023 (EDT)

::One more thing, because it occurred to me after being at the chat and after more research: I've said that Sam Young in Season 3 was such trash there's no point in comparing with anything else, but I've just run all the way thru the "Jem" series, and Sam Young's work seems to be quite a bit better, and that makes for a good reminder that '''budget''' may play as much of a role as any studio. We say that "Brigade" looks particularly nasty, so it couldn't be Sei Young, but I do see enough similarities that I don't disbelieve Sei Young involvement; it could be a matter of a lower budget making things worse and smushing the hell out of Powerglide's face, at least in this case. Check out the G.I. Joe episode "Haul Down the Heavens": I'm almost convinced it's the same situation, a really janky version of Sei Young. Some Sei Young stuff in "Defenders of the Earth" can get hella janky too at times. By the same token, Sam Young may have some arguably decent work in the "Jem" series, and then we get G1 "Carnage". I'm actually jealous of how many times Toei's good teams help the ladies out while us "lousy Autobot lovers" get shipped to Korea. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 04:18, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

UPDATE: I don't want to repeat myself since all new info is reflected on my user page, but there are three interesting developments that I'll summarize here. '''First:''' I'm calling it.... "those three" are probably by '''Hanho Heung-Up''', possibly produced by MiHahn. I'm sorry I didn't catch the info earlier at Megna, but their summaries at the "home" page seem to point to this conclusion. '''Second:''' It was hinted at by Danja, but to me is now a serious consideration. That is, what if Shin Won was indeed another AKOM subcontractor? I said before that Shin Won might not have done anything beyond in-betweening, but that was because I assumed they worked for Toei, but if it was AKOM, it'd be nice to hope that would blow this case wide open, especially considering.... '''Third:''' Have you seen TV Tropes lately? suddenly, over the past month there's been a lot of new info entered regarding who did what on G1. Shin Won, Dai Won, Doga Kobo, etc.! I don't trust all of it - some info seems quite implausible - but the most interesting info concerns Shin Won working on episodes I always suspected were from AKOM. I'm considering all of it, but '''''GOT''''' dammit, ''why are there no citations?!?!?'' [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:51, 13 May 2023 (EDT)

== Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment ==

Yo! I think I’m onto something!

I looked at Daewon Media’s page on TV Tropes and looked at the list of 12 Transformers episodes they were sub-contracted (yes, Daewon did '''THAT MANY'''). Auto Berserk was one of them, but in parenthesis was the name of a studio that isn’t normally subcontracted by Toei or AKOM — Sunrise, the studio behind stuff like Gundam & Cowboy Bebop. I had a look at the studios that have subcontracted Sunrise in the past, and all answers landed on Studio Deen, the company behind the Ranma 1/2 anime adaptation.

It’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but I think it’s very possible that the studio behind Auto Berserk & A Prime Problem could very well be Studio Deen. Likewise, for Decepticon Raider & Triple Takeover, the models for the human characters are very ''Spider-Man 1994'' -esque - especially Nimue in Decepticon Raider & the football stadium people in Triple Takeover. Again, it’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but TMS very well could have done Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider.

I’m not entirely confident on who animated Make Tracks now, due to this. The human characters look similar to what Sunrise would do with Cowboy Bebop, but there are some moments where it looks Spider-Man like ("No, Sideswipe… trust him… he’s my friend"), but I’ll keep digging.

Update #1: Sunrise actually DID do Make Tracks, but ''not'' A Prime Problem. Still 4 episodes down, though - just swap A Prime Problem for Make Tracks. That means now I have to do digging on who was behind A Prime Problem.

[[User:JustACollector|JustACollector]] ([[User talk:JustACollector|talk]]) 12:12, 8 December 2024 (EST)

Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

2024-12-08T18:47:58Z

JustACollector: /* Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment */

I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".

::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".

::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.

::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)

== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==

Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

==Identification criteria?==

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}

== I might have cracked it ==

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.

::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).

::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.

::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").

::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".

::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.

::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".

::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.

::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense...
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)
===A sudden twist!===
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)

AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.

(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

==That's some good work, Lou==

I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

== Carnage in C-Minor ==

Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)

==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==

Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)

== Ashi Productions ==

The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions]]? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST
:The animation style of "Call of the Primitives" is completely different from any of the episodes we've attributed to this studio, so unlikely. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:14, 29 March 2020 (EDT)

== Sei Young Animation Co ==

A possibility worth exploring is Korean company Sei Young Animation Co. Marvel used them for 63 episodes of Defenders Of The Earth in 1985 and 1986. They had a very Toei-esque style, having collaborated with them at various points since 1978. It would make sense if the purpose of sending 10 episodes to other studios in season 2, apart from the immediate benefit of taking pressure off Toei, was a test run before commissioning these studios full-time on other shows (AKOM would gradually become Marvel's primary animator). [[User:Greebtron|Greebtron]] ([[User talk:Greebtron|talk]]) 20:18, 21 April 2020 (EDT)
: I think you might be on to something here, at least with a few of the uglier looking episodes like "Kremzeek". It reminds me a bit of the feel and quality seen in some Toei-associated episodes of the time like "Child's Play" or "The Gambler". Heck, it actually wouldn't surprise me if Sei Young actually did those episodes too (under contract of Toei and not Marvel directly, of course). But that's just my thoughts on the matter, anyway. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 19:43, 20 July 2020 (EDT)

== (Season 3) Toei's 13th episode? ==

So I was skimming through the Season 3 episode articles because this was bothering me, but since "Surprise Party" was recently found out to be a Sei Young episode, that leaves Toei with only twelve confirmed Season 3 episodes, even though their resume says they did thirteen.

So my theories are:

1. Either "Surprise Party" was a Toei episode that Sei Young worked on (which would be expected giving their working relationship) and Sei Young simply sent Marvel the finished episode in Toei's place (I don't know the ins-and-outs of outsourcing animation but I think it's a possibility), leaving "Call of the Primitives" the weird outlier.

OR

2. "Surprise Party" was directly assigned to Sei Young, and "Call of the Primitives" was assigned to Toei, and Toei decided to subcontract the work to another studio (possibly Ashi Productions, going by the trivia note on the episode page). We know AKOM did the same thing with "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human", so it's not without precedent.

I could just be rambling nonsense, and the edit to the "Surprise" article was very recent, but I felt this needed to be brought up. --[[User:TheAmazingPoncho|TheAmazingPoncho]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingPoncho|talk]]) 21:33, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

== A possibility, perhaps? ==

So seeing how we finally found out that "Call' was a Toei episode farmed to another company ([[Studio Look]]), it got me wondering about Ashi Pro's involvement in the series regarding their work on the show and I found [https://w.atwiki.jp/sakuga/?cmd=word&word=%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC&type=&pageid=309 this]. It mentions both Habara's involvement on "Heavy Metal War" and Ashi's overall work on the show to his best recollection. The other episodes featured are labeled as "3, 8, 13, 22 and 32". Problem number 1 is that it's difficult as to what order the list is referring to as the English and Japanese broadcast airings are different to both.

Going by the English order, the episodes consist of "More Than Meets the Eye, Part 3", "S.O.S. Dinobots", "The Ultimate Doom, Part 3", "The Imobilizer" and "The Master Builders". Whereas in Japanese, while the first episode is identical, the other ones in that order consists of "War of the Dinobots", "Traitor", "A Prime Problem" and "The God Gambit". Problem no. 2 with that is with the Japanese order, which just straight on Toei or Korean-contracted-under-Toei titles (barring "Prime Problem", which we know is the work of the still-unidentified mystery studio), so I assume the page meant the original English order, which by extension marks "Roll For It" as a possible Ashi episode due to the similarities between it and "S.O.S." But again, that order is also pretty suspect as neither "Imobilizer" or "Master Builders" look anything like an Ashi-contracted episode and more like one of the Toei-supervised Korean episodes of Season 2.

Still, thought this was interesting all things considered. Any thoughts? [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 17:14, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:What if you exclude the More Than Meets the Eye miniseries from the enumeration? It was produced separately, after all. What are episodes 3, 8, 13, 22, and 32 then? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:00, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:And could it only be referring to Season 2? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:03, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
::Now that's the million dollar question I want to know the answer to, as the page I linked to considers it and the rest of Season 1 as one entity and not two separately produced batches. Not to mention this very wiki doesn't seem to discern the difference either and lumps the pilot in with the rest of the series, so I'm mostly basing my speculations towards that. Also, I think the count is for both, Seasons 1 and 2 if we take that into consideration. Only thing to do now is either ask Habara for clarification or wait until production sheets for the first two seasons surface before making better judgement.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 11:43, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Seasons 1 and 2 use the same format of production codes, but the pilot is separate. The pilot is codes 4023, 4024, and 4025. Season 1 proper runs from 700-01 to 700-13 and Season 2 runs from 700-16 to 700-64. You have to go to the individual episode pages to get these, though. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:49, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
::::3 = [[Divide and Conquer]], 8 = [[The Ultimate Doom, Part 1]], 13 = [[Heavy Metal War]], 22 = [[The Autobot Run]], and 32 = [[Auto Berserk]], based on production codes.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:56, 21 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::And that makes no sense we we already know The Autobot Run is very obviously AKOM, which again brings up the question of what the source I found is exactly meaning with its episode order. There's also the fact that the page seem to explicitly mention Heavy Metal War's order in both versions of the series (10 in Japanese, 16 in the original US). So I don't really know what to think.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 14:29, 26 September 2020 (EDT)

== Asking Dery ==

This might be opening a ''terrible'' idea (I've read his talk page), but do you think if anyone could get a hold of Floro Dery he could shed some light on this? He was a design supervisor and ''might'' have some info? I also have no idea if he's lived in the Philippines for all this time but if he was in the animation scene around then he might have a better idea of what studios were operating at the time that could've been the illusive studio. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 13:18, 2 December 2020 (EST)

== Another Possibility ==

Been sitting on this for a while now, but a thought crossed my mind fairly recently. With the reveal that Sei Young was the one responsible (or at least credited for) Surprise Party, it got me to thinking- What if one or more of the episodes attributed to this unknown studio are actually Sei Young's work? Comparing their work on Surprise Party or even Season 2 episodes credited to Toei like Child's Play or The Master Builders to say, Kremzeek or Triple Takeover, they look pretty similar. Call me crazy, but I certainly feel I might have stumbled onto something. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 21:25, 23 January 2021 (EST)

== A Possible Suggestion ==

I know this is probably a longshot, but has anyone actually asked any of the show's animators on the Japanese side of things? Not many of the US-based crew seem willing to answer (presuming they even have the materials to begin with), but I feel like if anyone could get in touch with an animator from the Japan side of the coin. We could hopefully get a better idea as to who did what episode. The problem though, from what I see is two-fold. The first is that I wouldn't know which among us would even know enough Japanese to properly ask the question in the first place. The second is whether or not said animators would even remember working on the show to begin with (assuming they did in the first place). Especially since for most of them it'd be among their first credits, and animators who were active during the 1980s usually seem to ignore that period where Japan got most of America's animation outside of some exceptions. Either way though, I think it'd be worth an attempt if nothing more. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 01:16, 15 July 2022 (EDT)

==Shin Won?==

I tweeted to the Wiki account and [[User:Chris_McFeely|Chris McFeely]] about this last year and promptly forgot all about it, but it's a possible lead. The [https://web.archive.org/web/20211201064759/https://digilander.libero.it/dottor_vaffa/ Megna Co-Productions database] lists the following studios as having worked on Transformers: Toei, Sei Young, Dai Won, Shin Won, Sam Young and Akom. Most of those are accounted for here, except Shin Won, so I did some digging.

According to the [https://www.kmdb.or.kr/db/per/00003442 Korean Movie Database] they were known as "Educational Fairy Tale" (or just Gyoyuk, which I guess is Korean for educational fairy tale - I'm using Google Translate for most of this) until 1986, when they became Shin Won and then "Production Grimi" in the late 90s. They're now defunct, it seems. Their [https://web.archive.org/web/20030215231041fw_/http://www.grimi.co.kr/index02.html official website circa 2003] (thanks to the Wayback Machine) has them claiming credit for work on various anime, Transformers, GI Joe, Jem, Real Ghostbusters, Dennis and, crucially, Teddy Ruxpin. Checking back on Megna, the Shin Won is the ''only'' studio attributed to Teddy Ruxpin. The [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1361 Anime News Network] profile for them has them credited on different shows with everything from "colour co-ordination check" to in-betweening to finish animation to paint to just "animation". So while it's entirely possible their contribution to Transformers was out-source assistance work to Toei or Akom, like Dai Won and Sam Young, that variety of contributions and Teddy Ruxpin suggests they're capable of producing entire episodes independently and so could be the mystery studio.

There are potential issues with this of course. First is that Wikipedia credits Teddy Ruxpin to Atkinson Film-Arts (along with DiC), who I don't know enough about to know whether they animated in-house or out-sourced the main work uncredited. Megna doesn't mention Atkinson at all for Teddy Ruxpin. Second is that Megna doesn't cite its sources, although Shin Won's own website is presumably the source in this case. Would they have reason to lie? Seems unlikely, but can't be ruled out, I guess. I suppose the acid test would be watching some Teddy Ruxpin. [[User:Danja|Danja]] ([[User talk:Danja|talk]]) 07:02, 26 January 2023 (EST)

:It's possible, That database is weird when it comes to listing outsourcing studios. And given how little we know about the studios in question (acid testing is how I was able to deduce some of the efforts of Anime R, Nakamura Pro, and Studio Look for Toei's episodes since two of them --R and Look-- lack websites and the third --Nakamura Pro-- ''has'' a website, but lacks a proper resume thanks to all the work they've done), it's possible we might have Shin Won doing an episode or two on their own. And if so, I can see them handling "Krmezeek", "Triple Takeover" and "The Secret of Omega Supreme" at least, leaving "Make Tracks", "A Prime Problem" and "Auto-Berserk" the remaining outliers if that is the case.

:As far as Teddy Ruxpin is concerned, Atkinson handled most of the pre-production services. The animation, as per usual with DiC, went to Asian studios uncredited (no idea if this tied into union rules being exploited like with Marvel, or DiC just being dicks), so Shin Won being involved might be something to look into so we can try and acid wash some of their episodes. Again, it bites not having the proper documentation for these things.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 05:18, 4 February 2023 (EST)

UPDTATE (since I forgot this thought initially): Is it possible that Shin Won also worked on some of the uglier-looking Toei episodes as well? I'm looking over some of the more infamous ones like "Child's Play" and "Starscream's Brigade" (credited to both Nakamura Pro and Sei Young alongside Toei currently; though I have my doubts about the Korean studio's involvement going over it), and it certainly feels like "Kremzeek" and "Triple Takeover" both have similar faults as the other episodes I just mentioned. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 13:25, 14 February 2023 (EST)

:Speaking of acid tests, that's exactly what I did regarding "Teddy Ruxpin", so I'll mention that I had no help there. Good news is, the Megna database seems to be the most accurate resource to date, so I count this and the fact that most of our "research material" is readily available on youtube as the two most important breakthroughs. Bad news, at least as far as "Teddy" is concerned, is that Megna may only be listing Korean OEM in this case, so stuff has to be missing. "Teddy" makes no sense in that some episodes are clearly done in Japan and some in Korea, but they list a "Kazumi Fukushima" as "animation director" or "animation consultant", but also credit "key animation" to a bunch of people with ''Western'' and ''European'' names! What?!? I was much more successful after watching "Jem", because there are only 11 episodes not produced by Toei, they look quite a bit different from the rest, but also have, to my eyes, no similarity whatsoever to anything on "Transformers". I feel comfortable saying that Shin Won could not have done anything above the level of in-between work. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:40, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

==I'm on a mission to identify all AKOM eps and it's a chore==

Longtime G1 fan, 1st time caller here. I can't say much now, because I have zero free time, but I'm just starting a couple of huge projects relating to a library of G1 episodes I'm editing for my personal collection, and it would likely be of interest to the community here. One project is heavy research on who did what animation. This started because I've been away from the fandom for decades, and noticed recently a hell of a lot of errors in information regarding the animation studios involved. This has been going on since I came across Hasbro Pulse TF eps on youtube several months ago, and you will see tons of comments left by me saying basically those 3 episodes (you know the ones) were absolutely NOT by AKOM, and a bunch of other mistaken assumptions came out of that mistaken assumption. It's amazing that no one seemed to make the connection to other, earlier Marvel shows. Remember "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends"? Since TF first aired, I immediately recognized animation similar to that show. Three eps are by Toei, but for all the rest, the credits say "Produced in association with MiHahn, Inc." They were a South Korean outfit, which according to scant info also outsourced to other studios. Whether any of those are based in the Phillipines, I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned, I go with "suspected to be by MiHahn". I'm maintaining a spreadsheet, and I will take everything else written here into consideration. When I'm finished identifying all AKOM eps to the best of my ability to detect these various animation techniques, I will let folks know. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 20:27, 6 April 2023 (EDT)

:Anything helps, I'm getting really tired of trying to identify episodes by eye to the point I don't know how many I have accurate and how many I'm completely wrong about (the downside to acid testing is that there are plenty of episodes with similar styles). Both for Toei and AKOM alike. This is why I wish we had full production materials, if they still exist, regarding who did what, so can't wait for that spreadsheet. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:31, 8 April 2023 (EDT)

::Agreed with everything you say, but I haven't given up identifying by looking just yet. I now have other asks and thoughts available, '''so here's my update'''. I haven't completely ruled out AKOM possibly subcontracting whoever worked on what I call the three Season 2 "PSE-style" eps (for "Pan Sang East"). It's certainly not in-house. If that's what's happened, then I currently believe the ten non-Toei eps from Season 2 are all AKOM. I left a discussion note in "Only Human", and I'm writing one now for "Triple Takeover". I'm not ready to share the spreadsheet, but all of my thoughts and best guesses so far are now at my user page, and anyone can feel free to discuss there; I promise to consider everything. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 18:20, 6 May 2023 (EDT)

::One more thing, because it occurred to me after being at the chat and after more research: I've said that Sam Young in Season 3 was such trash there's no point in comparing with anything else, but I've just run all the way thru the "Jem" series, and Sam Young's work seems to be quite a bit better, and that makes for a good reminder that '''budget''' may play as much of a role as any studio. We say that "Brigade" looks particularly nasty, so it couldn't be Sei Young, but I do see enough similarities that I don't disbelieve Sei Young involvement; it could be a matter of a lower budget making things worse and smushing the hell out of Powerglide's face, at least in this case. Check out the G.I. Joe episode "Haul Down the Heavens": I'm almost convinced it's the same situation, a really janky version of Sei Young. Some Sei Young stuff in "Defenders of the Earth" can get hella janky too at times. By the same token, Sam Young may have some arguably decent work in the "Jem" series, and then we get G1 "Carnage". I'm actually jealous of how many times Toei's good teams help the ladies out while us "lousy Autobot lovers" get shipped to Korea. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 04:18, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

UPDATE: I don't want to repeat myself since all new info is reflected on my user page, but there are three interesting developments that I'll summarize here. '''First:''' I'm calling it.... "those three" are probably by '''Hanho Heung-Up''', possibly produced by MiHahn. I'm sorry I didn't catch the info earlier at Megna, but their summaries at the "home" page seem to point to this conclusion. '''Second:''' It was hinted at by Danja, but to me is now a serious consideration. That is, what if Shin Won was indeed another AKOM subcontractor? I said before that Shin Won might not have done anything beyond in-betweening, but that was because I assumed they worked for Toei, but if it was AKOM, it'd be nice to hope that would blow this case wide open, especially considering.... '''Third:''' Have you seen TV Tropes lately? suddenly, over the past month there's been a lot of new info entered regarding who did what on G1. Shin Won, Dai Won, Doga Kobo, etc.! I don't trust all of it - some info seems quite implausible - but the most interesting info concerns Shin Won working on episodes I always suspected were from AKOM. I'm considering all of it, but '''''GOT''''' dammit, ''why are there no citations?!?!?'' [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:51, 13 May 2023 (EDT)

== Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment ==

Yo! I think I’m onto something!

I looked at Daewon Media’s page on TV Tropes and looked at the list of 12 Transformers episodes they were sub-contracted (yes, Dai Won did '''THAT MANY'''). Auto Berserk was one of them, but in parenthesis was the name of a studio that isn’t normally subcontracted by Toei or AKOM — Sunrise, the studio behind stuff like Gundam & Cowboy Bebop. I had a look at the studios that have subcontracted Sunrise in the past, and all answers landed on Studio Deen, the company behind the Ranma 1/2 anime adaptation.

It’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but I think it’s very possible that the studio behind Auto Berserk & A Prime Problem could very well be Studio Deen. Likewise, for Decepticon Raider & Triple Takeover, the models for the human characters are very ''Spider-Man 1994'' -esque - especially Nimue in Decepticon Raider & the football stadium people in Triple Takeover. Again, it’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but TMS very well could have done Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider.

I’m not entirely confident on who animated Make Tracks now, due to this. The human characters look similar to what Sunrise would do with Cowboy Bebop, but there are some moments where it looks Spider-Man like ("No, Sideswipe… trust him… he’s my friend"), but I’ll keep digging.

Update #1: Sunrise actually DID do Make Tracks, but ''not'' A Prime Problem. Still 4 episodes down, though - just swap A Prime Problem for Make Tracks. That means now I have to do digging on who was behind A Prime Problem.

[[User:JustACollector|JustACollector]] ([[User talk:JustACollector|talk]]) 12:12, 8 December 2024 (EST)

Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

2024-12-08T18:47:24Z

JustACollector: /* Update 1 */

I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".

::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".

::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.

::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)

== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==

Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

==Identification criteria?==

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}

== I might have cracked it ==

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.

::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).

::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.

::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").

::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".

::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.

::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".

::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.

::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense...
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)
===A sudden twist!===
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)

AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.

(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

==That's some good work, Lou==

I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

== Carnage in C-Minor ==

Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)

==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==

Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)

== Ashi Productions ==

The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions]]? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST
:The animation style of "Call of the Primitives" is completely different from any of the episodes we've attributed to this studio, so unlikely. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:14, 29 March 2020 (EDT)

== Sei Young Animation Co ==

A possibility worth exploring is Korean company Sei Young Animation Co. Marvel used them for 63 episodes of Defenders Of The Earth in 1985 and 1986. They had a very Toei-esque style, having collaborated with them at various points since 1978. It would make sense if the purpose of sending 10 episodes to other studios in season 2, apart from the immediate benefit of taking pressure off Toei, was a test run before commissioning these studios full-time on other shows (AKOM would gradually become Marvel's primary animator). [[User:Greebtron|Greebtron]] ([[User talk:Greebtron|talk]]) 20:18, 21 April 2020 (EDT)
: I think you might be on to something here, at least with a few of the uglier looking episodes like "Kremzeek". It reminds me a bit of the feel and quality seen in some Toei-associated episodes of the time like "Child's Play" or "The Gambler". Heck, it actually wouldn't surprise me if Sei Young actually did those episodes too (under contract of Toei and not Marvel directly, of course). But that's just my thoughts on the matter, anyway. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 19:43, 20 July 2020 (EDT)

== (Season 3) Toei's 13th episode? ==

So I was skimming through the Season 3 episode articles because this was bothering me, but since "Surprise Party" was recently found out to be a Sei Young episode, that leaves Toei with only twelve confirmed Season 3 episodes, even though their resume says they did thirteen.

So my theories are:

1. Either "Surprise Party" was a Toei episode that Sei Young worked on (which would be expected giving their working relationship) and Sei Young simply sent Marvel the finished episode in Toei's place (I don't know the ins-and-outs of outsourcing animation but I think it's a possibility), leaving "Call of the Primitives" the weird outlier.

OR

2. "Surprise Party" was directly assigned to Sei Young, and "Call of the Primitives" was assigned to Toei, and Toei decided to subcontract the work to another studio (possibly Ashi Productions, going by the trivia note on the episode page). We know AKOM did the same thing with "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human", so it's not without precedent.

I could just be rambling nonsense, and the edit to the "Surprise" article was very recent, but I felt this needed to be brought up. --[[User:TheAmazingPoncho|TheAmazingPoncho]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingPoncho|talk]]) 21:33, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

== A possibility, perhaps? ==

So seeing how we finally found out that "Call' was a Toei episode farmed to another company ([[Studio Look]]), it got me wondering about Ashi Pro's involvement in the series regarding their work on the show and I found [https://w.atwiki.jp/sakuga/?cmd=word&word=%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC&type=&pageid=309 this]. It mentions both Habara's involvement on "Heavy Metal War" and Ashi's overall work on the show to his best recollection. The other episodes featured are labeled as "3, 8, 13, 22 and 32". Problem number 1 is that it's difficult as to what order the list is referring to as the English and Japanese broadcast airings are different to both.

Going by the English order, the episodes consist of "More Than Meets the Eye, Part 3", "S.O.S. Dinobots", "The Ultimate Doom, Part 3", "The Imobilizer" and "The Master Builders". Whereas in Japanese, while the first episode is identical, the other ones in that order consists of "War of the Dinobots", "Traitor", "A Prime Problem" and "The God Gambit". Problem no. 2 with that is with the Japanese order, which just straight on Toei or Korean-contracted-under-Toei titles (barring "Prime Problem", which we know is the work of the still-unidentified mystery studio), so I assume the page meant the original English order, which by extension marks "Roll For It" as a possible Ashi episode due to the similarities between it and "S.O.S." But again, that order is also pretty suspect as neither "Imobilizer" or "Master Builders" look anything like an Ashi-contracted episode and more like one of the Toei-supervised Korean episodes of Season 2.

Still, thought this was interesting all things considered. Any thoughts? [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 17:14, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:What if you exclude the More Than Meets the Eye miniseries from the enumeration? It was produced separately, after all. What are episodes 3, 8, 13, 22, and 32 then? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:00, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:And could it only be referring to Season 2? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:03, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
::Now that's the million dollar question I want to know the answer to, as the page I linked to considers it and the rest of Season 1 as one entity and not two separately produced batches. Not to mention this very wiki doesn't seem to discern the difference either and lumps the pilot in with the rest of the series, so I'm mostly basing my speculations towards that. Also, I think the count is for both, Seasons 1 and 2 if we take that into consideration. Only thing to do now is either ask Habara for clarification or wait until production sheets for the first two seasons surface before making better judgement.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 11:43, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Seasons 1 and 2 use the same format of production codes, but the pilot is separate. The pilot is codes 4023, 4024, and 4025. Season 1 proper runs from 700-01 to 700-13 and Season 2 runs from 700-16 to 700-64. You have to go to the individual episode pages to get these, though. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:49, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
::::3 = [[Divide and Conquer]], 8 = [[The Ultimate Doom, Part 1]], 13 = [[Heavy Metal War]], 22 = [[The Autobot Run]], and 32 = [[Auto Berserk]], based on production codes.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:56, 21 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::And that makes no sense we we already know The Autobot Run is very obviously AKOM, which again brings up the question of what the source I found is exactly meaning with its episode order. There's also the fact that the page seem to explicitly mention Heavy Metal War's order in both versions of the series (10 in Japanese, 16 in the original US). So I don't really know what to think.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 14:29, 26 September 2020 (EDT)

== Asking Dery ==

This might be opening a ''terrible'' idea (I've read his talk page), but do you think if anyone could get a hold of Floro Dery he could shed some light on this? He was a design supervisor and ''might'' have some info? I also have no idea if he's lived in the Philippines for all this time but if he was in the animation scene around then he might have a better idea of what studios were operating at the time that could've been the illusive studio. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 13:18, 2 December 2020 (EST)

== Another Possibility ==

Been sitting on this for a while now, but a thought crossed my mind fairly recently. With the reveal that Sei Young was the one responsible (or at least credited for) Surprise Party, it got me to thinking- What if one or more of the episodes attributed to this unknown studio are actually Sei Young's work? Comparing their work on Surprise Party or even Season 2 episodes credited to Toei like Child's Play or The Master Builders to say, Kremzeek or Triple Takeover, they look pretty similar. Call me crazy, but I certainly feel I might have stumbled onto something. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 21:25, 23 January 2021 (EST)

== A Possible Suggestion ==

I know this is probably a longshot, but has anyone actually asked any of the show's animators on the Japanese side of things? Not many of the US-based crew seem willing to answer (presuming they even have the materials to begin with), but I feel like if anyone could get in touch with an animator from the Japan side of the coin. We could hopefully get a better idea as to who did what episode. The problem though, from what I see is two-fold. The first is that I wouldn't know which among us would even know enough Japanese to properly ask the question in the first place. The second is whether or not said animators would even remember working on the show to begin with (assuming they did in the first place). Especially since for most of them it'd be among their first credits, and animators who were active during the 1980s usually seem to ignore that period where Japan got most of America's animation outside of some exceptions. Either way though, I think it'd be worth an attempt if nothing more. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 01:16, 15 July 2022 (EDT)

==Shin Won?==

I tweeted to the Wiki account and [[User:Chris_McFeely|Chris McFeely]] about this last year and promptly forgot all about it, but it's a possible lead. The [https://web.archive.org/web/20211201064759/https://digilander.libero.it/dottor_vaffa/ Megna Co-Productions database] lists the following studios as having worked on Transformers: Toei, Sei Young, Dai Won, Shin Won, Sam Young and Akom. Most of those are accounted for here, except Shin Won, so I did some digging.

According to the [https://www.kmdb.or.kr/db/per/00003442 Korean Movie Database] they were known as "Educational Fairy Tale" (or just Gyoyuk, which I guess is Korean for educational fairy tale - I'm using Google Translate for most of this) until 1986, when they became Shin Won and then "Production Grimi" in the late 90s. They're now defunct, it seems. Their [https://web.archive.org/web/20030215231041fw_/http://www.grimi.co.kr/index02.html official website circa 2003] (thanks to the Wayback Machine) has them claiming credit for work on various anime, Transformers, GI Joe, Jem, Real Ghostbusters, Dennis and, crucially, Teddy Ruxpin. Checking back on Megna, the Shin Won is the ''only'' studio attributed to Teddy Ruxpin. The [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1361 Anime News Network] profile for them has them credited on different shows with everything from "colour co-ordination check" to in-betweening to finish animation to paint to just "animation". So while it's entirely possible their contribution to Transformers was out-source assistance work to Toei or Akom, like Dai Won and Sam Young, that variety of contributions and Teddy Ruxpin suggests they're capable of producing entire episodes independently and so could be the mystery studio.

There are potential issues with this of course. First is that Wikipedia credits Teddy Ruxpin to Atkinson Film-Arts (along with DiC), who I don't know enough about to know whether they animated in-house or out-sourced the main work uncredited. Megna doesn't mention Atkinson at all for Teddy Ruxpin. Second is that Megna doesn't cite its sources, although Shin Won's own website is presumably the source in this case. Would they have reason to lie? Seems unlikely, but can't be ruled out, I guess. I suppose the acid test would be watching some Teddy Ruxpin. [[User:Danja|Danja]] ([[User talk:Danja|talk]]) 07:02, 26 January 2023 (EST)

:It's possible, That database is weird when it comes to listing outsourcing studios. And given how little we know about the studios in question (acid testing is how I was able to deduce some of the efforts of Anime R, Nakamura Pro, and Studio Look for Toei's episodes since two of them --R and Look-- lack websites and the third --Nakamura Pro-- ''has'' a website, but lacks a proper resume thanks to all the work they've done), it's possible we might have Shin Won doing an episode or two on their own. And if so, I can see them handling "Krmezeek", "Triple Takeover" and "The Secret of Omega Supreme" at least, leaving "Make Tracks", "A Prime Problem" and "Auto-Berserk" the remaining outliers if that is the case.

:As far as Teddy Ruxpin is concerned, Atkinson handled most of the pre-production services. The animation, as per usual with DiC, went to Asian studios uncredited (no idea if this tied into union rules being exploited like with Marvel, or DiC just being dicks), so Shin Won being involved might be something to look into so we can try and acid wash some of their episodes. Again, it bites not having the proper documentation for these things.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 05:18, 4 February 2023 (EST)

UPDTATE (since I forgot this thought initially): Is it possible that Shin Won also worked on some of the uglier-looking Toei episodes as well? I'm looking over some of the more infamous ones like "Child's Play" and "Starscream's Brigade" (credited to both Nakamura Pro and Sei Young alongside Toei currently; though I have my doubts about the Korean studio's involvement going over it), and it certainly feels like "Kremzeek" and "Triple Takeover" both have similar faults as the other episodes I just mentioned. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 13:25, 14 February 2023 (EST)

:Speaking of acid tests, that's exactly what I did regarding "Teddy Ruxpin", so I'll mention that I had no help there. Good news is, the Megna database seems to be the most accurate resource to date, so I count this and the fact that most of our "research material" is readily available on youtube as the two most important breakthroughs. Bad news, at least as far as "Teddy" is concerned, is that Megna may only be listing Korean OEM in this case, so stuff has to be missing. "Teddy" makes no sense in that some episodes are clearly done in Japan and some in Korea, but they list a "Kazumi Fukushima" as "animation director" or "animation consultant", but also credit "key animation" to a bunch of people with ''Western'' and ''European'' names! What?!? I was much more successful after watching "Jem", because there are only 11 episodes not produced by Toei, they look quite a bit different from the rest, but also have, to my eyes, no similarity whatsoever to anything on "Transformers". I feel comfortable saying that Shin Won could not have done anything above the level of in-between work. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:40, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

==I'm on a mission to identify all AKOM eps and it's a chore==

Longtime G1 fan, 1st time caller here. I can't say much now, because I have zero free time, but I'm just starting a couple of huge projects relating to a library of G1 episodes I'm editing for my personal collection, and it would likely be of interest to the community here. One project is heavy research on who did what animation. This started because I've been away from the fandom for decades, and noticed recently a hell of a lot of errors in information regarding the animation studios involved. This has been going on since I came across Hasbro Pulse TF eps on youtube several months ago, and you will see tons of comments left by me saying basically those 3 episodes (you know the ones) were absolutely NOT by AKOM, and a bunch of other mistaken assumptions came out of that mistaken assumption. It's amazing that no one seemed to make the connection to other, earlier Marvel shows. Remember "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends"? Since TF first aired, I immediately recognized animation similar to that show. Three eps are by Toei, but for all the rest, the credits say "Produced in association with MiHahn, Inc." They were a South Korean outfit, which according to scant info also outsourced to other studios. Whether any of those are based in the Phillipines, I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned, I go with "suspected to be by MiHahn". I'm maintaining a spreadsheet, and I will take everything else written here into consideration. When I'm finished identifying all AKOM eps to the best of my ability to detect these various animation techniques, I will let folks know. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 20:27, 6 April 2023 (EDT)

:Anything helps, I'm getting really tired of trying to identify episodes by eye to the point I don't know how many I have accurate and how many I'm completely wrong about (the downside to acid testing is that there are plenty of episodes with similar styles). Both for Toei and AKOM alike. This is why I wish we had full production materials, if they still exist, regarding who did what, so can't wait for that spreadsheet. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:31, 8 April 2023 (EDT)

::Agreed with everything you say, but I haven't given up identifying by looking just yet. I now have other asks and thoughts available, '''so here's my update'''. I haven't completely ruled out AKOM possibly subcontracting whoever worked on what I call the three Season 2 "PSE-style" eps (for "Pan Sang East"). It's certainly not in-house. If that's what's happened, then I currently believe the ten non-Toei eps from Season 2 are all AKOM. I left a discussion note in "Only Human", and I'm writing one now for "Triple Takeover". I'm not ready to share the spreadsheet, but all of my thoughts and best guesses so far are now at my user page, and anyone can feel free to discuss there; I promise to consider everything. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 18:20, 6 May 2023 (EDT)

::One more thing, because it occurred to me after being at the chat and after more research: I've said that Sam Young in Season 3 was such trash there's no point in comparing with anything else, but I've just run all the way thru the "Jem" series, and Sam Young's work seems to be quite a bit better, and that makes for a good reminder that '''budget''' may play as much of a role as any studio. We say that "Brigade" looks particularly nasty, so it couldn't be Sei Young, but I do see enough similarities that I don't disbelieve Sei Young involvement; it could be a matter of a lower budget making things worse and smushing the hell out of Powerglide's face, at least in this case. Check out the G.I. Joe episode "Haul Down the Heavens": I'm almost convinced it's the same situation, a really janky version of Sei Young. Some Sei Young stuff in "Defenders of the Earth" can get hella janky too at times. By the same token, Sam Young may have some arguably decent work in the "Jem" series, and then we get G1 "Carnage". I'm actually jealous of how many times Toei's good teams help the ladies out while us "lousy Autobot lovers" get shipped to Korea. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 04:18, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

UPDATE: I don't want to repeat myself since all new info is reflected on my user page, but there are three interesting developments that I'll summarize here. '''First:''' I'm calling it.... "those three" are probably by '''Hanho Heung-Up''', possibly produced by MiHahn. I'm sorry I didn't catch the info earlier at Megna, but their summaries at the "home" page seem to point to this conclusion. '''Second:''' It was hinted at by Danja, but to me is now a serious consideration. That is, what if Shin Won was indeed another AKOM subcontractor? I said before that Shin Won might not have done anything beyond in-betweening, but that was because I assumed they worked for Toei, but if it was AKOM, it'd be nice to hope that would blow this case wide open, especially considering.... '''Third:''' Have you seen TV Tropes lately? suddenly, over the past month there's been a lot of new info entered regarding who did what on G1. Shin Won, Dai Won, Doga Kobo, etc.! I don't trust all of it - some info seems quite implausible - but the most interesting info concerns Shin Won working on episodes I always suspected were from AKOM. I'm considering all of it, but '''''GOT''''' dammit, ''why are there no citations?!?!?'' [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:51, 13 May 2023 (EDT)

== Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment ==

Yo! I think I’m onto something!

I looked at Daewon Media’s page on TV Tropes and looked at the list of 12 Transformers episodes they were sub-contracted (yes, Dai Won did '''THAT MANY'''). Auto Berserk was one of them, but in parenthesis was the name of a studio that isn’t normally subcontracted by Toei or AKOM — Sunrise, the studio behind stuff like Gundam & Cowboy Bebop. I had a look at the studios that have subcontracted Sunrise in the past, and all answers landed on Studio Deen, the company behind the Ranma 1/2 anime adaptation.

It’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but I think it’s very possible that the studio behind Auto Berserk & A Prime Problem could very well be Studio Deen. Likewise, for Decepticon Raider & Triple Takeover, the models for the human characters are very ''Spider-Man 1994'' -esque - especially Nimue in Decepticon Raider & the football stadium people in Triple Takeover. Again, it’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but TMS very well could have done Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider.

I’m not entirely confident on who animated Make Tracks now, due to this. The human characters look similar to what Sunrise would do with Cowboy Bebop, but there are some moments where it looks Spider-Man like ("No, Sideswipe… trust him… he’s my friend"), but I’ll keep digging.

Sunrise actually DID do Make Tracks, but ''not'' A Prime Problem. Still 4 episodes down, though - just swap A Prime Problem for Make Tracks. That means now I have to do digging on who was behind A Prime Problem.

[[User:JustACollector|JustACollector]] ([[User talk:JustACollector|talk]]) 12:12, 8 December 2024 (EST)

Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

2024-12-08T18:46:55Z

JustACollector: /* Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment */

I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".

::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".

::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.

::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)

== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==

Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

==Identification criteria?==

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}

== I might have cracked it ==

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.

::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).

::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.

::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").

::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".

::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.

::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".

::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.

::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense...
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)
===A sudden twist!===
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)

AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.

(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

==That's some good work, Lou==

I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

== Carnage in C-Minor ==

Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)

==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==

Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)

== Ashi Productions ==

The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions]]? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST
:The animation style of "Call of the Primitives" is completely different from any of the episodes we've attributed to this studio, so unlikely. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:14, 29 March 2020 (EDT)

== Sei Young Animation Co ==

A possibility worth exploring is Korean company Sei Young Animation Co. Marvel used them for 63 episodes of Defenders Of The Earth in 1985 and 1986. They had a very Toei-esque style, having collaborated with them at various points since 1978. It would make sense if the purpose of sending 10 episodes to other studios in season 2, apart from the immediate benefit of taking pressure off Toei, was a test run before commissioning these studios full-time on other shows (AKOM would gradually become Marvel's primary animator). [[User:Greebtron|Greebtron]] ([[User talk:Greebtron|talk]]) 20:18, 21 April 2020 (EDT)
: I think you might be on to something here, at least with a few of the uglier looking episodes like "Kremzeek". It reminds me a bit of the feel and quality seen in some Toei-associated episodes of the time like "Child's Play" or "The Gambler". Heck, it actually wouldn't surprise me if Sei Young actually did those episodes too (under contract of Toei and not Marvel directly, of course). But that's just my thoughts on the matter, anyway. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 19:43, 20 July 2020 (EDT)

== (Season 3) Toei's 13th episode? ==

So I was skimming through the Season 3 episode articles because this was bothering me, but since "Surprise Party" was recently found out to be a Sei Young episode, that leaves Toei with only twelve confirmed Season 3 episodes, even though their resume says they did thirteen.

So my theories are:

1. Either "Surprise Party" was a Toei episode that Sei Young worked on (which would be expected giving their working relationship) and Sei Young simply sent Marvel the finished episode in Toei's place (I don't know the ins-and-outs of outsourcing animation but I think it's a possibility), leaving "Call of the Primitives" the weird outlier.

OR

2. "Surprise Party" was directly assigned to Sei Young, and "Call of the Primitives" was assigned to Toei, and Toei decided to subcontract the work to another studio (possibly Ashi Productions, going by the trivia note on the episode page). We know AKOM did the same thing with "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human", so it's not without precedent.

I could just be rambling nonsense, and the edit to the "Surprise" article was very recent, but I felt this needed to be brought up. --[[User:TheAmazingPoncho|TheAmazingPoncho]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingPoncho|talk]]) 21:33, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

== A possibility, perhaps? ==

So seeing how we finally found out that "Call' was a Toei episode farmed to another company ([[Studio Look]]), it got me wondering about Ashi Pro's involvement in the series regarding their work on the show and I found [https://w.atwiki.jp/sakuga/?cmd=word&word=%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC&type=&pageid=309 this]. It mentions both Habara's involvement on "Heavy Metal War" and Ashi's overall work on the show to his best recollection. The other episodes featured are labeled as "3, 8, 13, 22 and 32". Problem number 1 is that it's difficult as to what order the list is referring to as the English and Japanese broadcast airings are different to both.

Going by the English order, the episodes consist of "More Than Meets the Eye, Part 3", "S.O.S. Dinobots", "The Ultimate Doom, Part 3", "The Imobilizer" and "The Master Builders". Whereas in Japanese, while the first episode is identical, the other ones in that order consists of "War of the Dinobots", "Traitor", "A Prime Problem" and "The God Gambit". Problem no. 2 with that is with the Japanese order, which just straight on Toei or Korean-contracted-under-Toei titles (barring "Prime Problem", which we know is the work of the still-unidentified mystery studio), so I assume the page meant the original English order, which by extension marks "Roll For It" as a possible Ashi episode due to the similarities between it and "S.O.S." But again, that order is also pretty suspect as neither "Imobilizer" or "Master Builders" look anything like an Ashi-contracted episode and more like one of the Toei-supervised Korean episodes of Season 2.

Still, thought this was interesting all things considered. Any thoughts? [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 17:14, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:What if you exclude the More Than Meets the Eye miniseries from the enumeration? It was produced separately, after all. What are episodes 3, 8, 13, 22, and 32 then? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:00, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:And could it only be referring to Season 2? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:03, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
::Now that's the million dollar question I want to know the answer to, as the page I linked to considers it and the rest of Season 1 as one entity and not two separately produced batches. Not to mention this very wiki doesn't seem to discern the difference either and lumps the pilot in with the rest of the series, so I'm mostly basing my speculations towards that. Also, I think the count is for both, Seasons 1 and 2 if we take that into consideration. Only thing to do now is either ask Habara for clarification or wait until production sheets for the first two seasons surface before making better judgement.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 11:43, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Seasons 1 and 2 use the same format of production codes, but the pilot is separate. The pilot is codes 4023, 4024, and 4025. Season 1 proper runs from 700-01 to 700-13 and Season 2 runs from 700-16 to 700-64. You have to go to the individual episode pages to get these, though. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:49, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
::::3 = [[Divide and Conquer]], 8 = [[The Ultimate Doom, Part 1]], 13 = [[Heavy Metal War]], 22 = [[The Autobot Run]], and 32 = [[Auto Berserk]], based on production codes.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:56, 21 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::And that makes no sense we we already know The Autobot Run is very obviously AKOM, which again brings up the question of what the source I found is exactly meaning with its episode order. There's also the fact that the page seem to explicitly mention Heavy Metal War's order in both versions of the series (10 in Japanese, 16 in the original US). So I don't really know what to think.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 14:29, 26 September 2020 (EDT)

== Asking Dery ==

This might be opening a ''terrible'' idea (I've read his talk page), but do you think if anyone could get a hold of Floro Dery he could shed some light on this? He was a design supervisor and ''might'' have some info? I also have no idea if he's lived in the Philippines for all this time but if he was in the animation scene around then he might have a better idea of what studios were operating at the time that could've been the illusive studio. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 13:18, 2 December 2020 (EST)

== Another Possibility ==

Been sitting on this for a while now, but a thought crossed my mind fairly recently. With the reveal that Sei Young was the one responsible (or at least credited for) Surprise Party, it got me to thinking- What if one or more of the episodes attributed to this unknown studio are actually Sei Young's work? Comparing their work on Surprise Party or even Season 2 episodes credited to Toei like Child's Play or The Master Builders to say, Kremzeek or Triple Takeover, they look pretty similar. Call me crazy, but I certainly feel I might have stumbled onto something. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 21:25, 23 January 2021 (EST)

== A Possible Suggestion ==

I know this is probably a longshot, but has anyone actually asked any of the show's animators on the Japanese side of things? Not many of the US-based crew seem willing to answer (presuming they even have the materials to begin with), but I feel like if anyone could get in touch with an animator from the Japan side of the coin. We could hopefully get a better idea as to who did what episode. The problem though, from what I see is two-fold. The first is that I wouldn't know which among us would even know enough Japanese to properly ask the question in the first place. The second is whether or not said animators would even remember working on the show to begin with (assuming they did in the first place). Especially since for most of them it'd be among their first credits, and animators who were active during the 1980s usually seem to ignore that period where Japan got most of America's animation outside of some exceptions. Either way though, I think it'd be worth an attempt if nothing more. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 01:16, 15 July 2022 (EDT)

==Shin Won?==

I tweeted to the Wiki account and [[User:Chris_McFeely|Chris McFeely]] about this last year and promptly forgot all about it, but it's a possible lead. The [https://web.archive.org/web/20211201064759/https://digilander.libero.it/dottor_vaffa/ Megna Co-Productions database] lists the following studios as having worked on Transformers: Toei, Sei Young, Dai Won, Shin Won, Sam Young and Akom. Most of those are accounted for here, except Shin Won, so I did some digging.

According to the [https://www.kmdb.or.kr/db/per/00003442 Korean Movie Database] they were known as "Educational Fairy Tale" (or just Gyoyuk, which I guess is Korean for educational fairy tale - I'm using Google Translate for most of this) until 1986, when they became Shin Won and then "Production Grimi" in the late 90s. They're now defunct, it seems. Their [https://web.archive.org/web/20030215231041fw_/http://www.grimi.co.kr/index02.html official website circa 2003] (thanks to the Wayback Machine) has them claiming credit for work on various anime, Transformers, GI Joe, Jem, Real Ghostbusters, Dennis and, crucially, Teddy Ruxpin. Checking back on Megna, the Shin Won is the ''only'' studio attributed to Teddy Ruxpin. The [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1361 Anime News Network] profile for them has them credited on different shows with everything from "colour co-ordination check" to in-betweening to finish animation to paint to just "animation". So while it's entirely possible their contribution to Transformers was out-source assistance work to Toei or Akom, like Dai Won and Sam Young, that variety of contributions and Teddy Ruxpin suggests they're capable of producing entire episodes independently and so could be the mystery studio.

There are potential issues with this of course. First is that Wikipedia credits Teddy Ruxpin to Atkinson Film-Arts (along with DiC), who I don't know enough about to know whether they animated in-house or out-sourced the main work uncredited. Megna doesn't mention Atkinson at all for Teddy Ruxpin. Second is that Megna doesn't cite its sources, although Shin Won's own website is presumably the source in this case. Would they have reason to lie? Seems unlikely, but can't be ruled out, I guess. I suppose the acid test would be watching some Teddy Ruxpin. [[User:Danja|Danja]] ([[User talk:Danja|talk]]) 07:02, 26 January 2023 (EST)

:It's possible, That database is weird when it comes to listing outsourcing studios. And given how little we know about the studios in question (acid testing is how I was able to deduce some of the efforts of Anime R, Nakamura Pro, and Studio Look for Toei's episodes since two of them --R and Look-- lack websites and the third --Nakamura Pro-- ''has'' a website, but lacks a proper resume thanks to all the work they've done), it's possible we might have Shin Won doing an episode or two on their own. And if so, I can see them handling "Krmezeek", "Triple Takeover" and "The Secret of Omega Supreme" at least, leaving "Make Tracks", "A Prime Problem" and "Auto-Berserk" the remaining outliers if that is the case.

:As far as Teddy Ruxpin is concerned, Atkinson handled most of the pre-production services. The animation, as per usual with DiC, went to Asian studios uncredited (no idea if this tied into union rules being exploited like with Marvel, or DiC just being dicks), so Shin Won being involved might be something to look into so we can try and acid wash some of their episodes. Again, it bites not having the proper documentation for these things.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 05:18, 4 February 2023 (EST)

UPDTATE (since I forgot this thought initially): Is it possible that Shin Won also worked on some of the uglier-looking Toei episodes as well? I'm looking over some of the more infamous ones like "Child's Play" and "Starscream's Brigade" (credited to both Nakamura Pro and Sei Young alongside Toei currently; though I have my doubts about the Korean studio's involvement going over it), and it certainly feels like "Kremzeek" and "Triple Takeover" both have similar faults as the other episodes I just mentioned. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 13:25, 14 February 2023 (EST)

:Speaking of acid tests, that's exactly what I did regarding "Teddy Ruxpin", so I'll mention that I had no help there. Good news is, the Megna database seems to be the most accurate resource to date, so I count this and the fact that most of our "research material" is readily available on youtube as the two most important breakthroughs. Bad news, at least as far as "Teddy" is concerned, is that Megna may only be listing Korean OEM in this case, so stuff has to be missing. "Teddy" makes no sense in that some episodes are clearly done in Japan and some in Korea, but they list a "Kazumi Fukushima" as "animation director" or "animation consultant", but also credit "key animation" to a bunch of people with ''Western'' and ''European'' names! What?!? I was much more successful after watching "Jem", because there are only 11 episodes not produced by Toei, they look quite a bit different from the rest, but also have, to my eyes, no similarity whatsoever to anything on "Transformers". I feel comfortable saying that Shin Won could not have done anything above the level of in-between work. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:40, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

==I'm on a mission to identify all AKOM eps and it's a chore==

Longtime G1 fan, 1st time caller here. I can't say much now, because I have zero free time, but I'm just starting a couple of huge projects relating to a library of G1 episodes I'm editing for my personal collection, and it would likely be of interest to the community here. One project is heavy research on who did what animation. This started because I've been away from the fandom for decades, and noticed recently a hell of a lot of errors in information regarding the animation studios involved. This has been going on since I came across Hasbro Pulse TF eps on youtube several months ago, and you will see tons of comments left by me saying basically those 3 episodes (you know the ones) were absolutely NOT by AKOM, and a bunch of other mistaken assumptions came out of that mistaken assumption. It's amazing that no one seemed to make the connection to other, earlier Marvel shows. Remember "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends"? Since TF first aired, I immediately recognized animation similar to that show. Three eps are by Toei, but for all the rest, the credits say "Produced in association with MiHahn, Inc." They were a South Korean outfit, which according to scant info also outsourced to other studios. Whether any of those are based in the Phillipines, I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned, I go with "suspected to be by MiHahn". I'm maintaining a spreadsheet, and I will take everything else written here into consideration. When I'm finished identifying all AKOM eps to the best of my ability to detect these various animation techniques, I will let folks know. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 20:27, 6 April 2023 (EDT)

:Anything helps, I'm getting really tired of trying to identify episodes by eye to the point I don't know how many I have accurate and how many I'm completely wrong about (the downside to acid testing is that there are plenty of episodes with similar styles). Both for Toei and AKOM alike. This is why I wish we had full production materials, if they still exist, regarding who did what, so can't wait for that spreadsheet. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:31, 8 April 2023 (EDT)

::Agreed with everything you say, but I haven't given up identifying by looking just yet. I now have other asks and thoughts available, '''so here's my update'''. I haven't completely ruled out AKOM possibly subcontracting whoever worked on what I call the three Season 2 "PSE-style" eps (for "Pan Sang East"). It's certainly not in-house. If that's what's happened, then I currently believe the ten non-Toei eps from Season 2 are all AKOM. I left a discussion note in "Only Human", and I'm writing one now for "Triple Takeover". I'm not ready to share the spreadsheet, but all of my thoughts and best guesses so far are now at my user page, and anyone can feel free to discuss there; I promise to consider everything. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 18:20, 6 May 2023 (EDT)

::One more thing, because it occurred to me after being at the chat and after more research: I've said that Sam Young in Season 3 was such trash there's no point in comparing with anything else, but I've just run all the way thru the "Jem" series, and Sam Young's work seems to be quite a bit better, and that makes for a good reminder that '''budget''' may play as much of a role as any studio. We say that "Brigade" looks particularly nasty, so it couldn't be Sei Young, but I do see enough similarities that I don't disbelieve Sei Young involvement; it could be a matter of a lower budget making things worse and smushing the hell out of Powerglide's face, at least in this case. Check out the G.I. Joe episode "Haul Down the Heavens": I'm almost convinced it's the same situation, a really janky version of Sei Young. Some Sei Young stuff in "Defenders of the Earth" can get hella janky too at times. By the same token, Sam Young may have some arguably decent work in the "Jem" series, and then we get G1 "Carnage". I'm actually jealous of how many times Toei's good teams help the ladies out while us "lousy Autobot lovers" get shipped to Korea. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 04:18, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

UPDATE: I don't want to repeat myself since all new info is reflected on my user page, but there are three interesting developments that I'll summarize here. '''First:''' I'm calling it.... "those three" are probably by '''Hanho Heung-Up''', possibly produced by MiHahn. I'm sorry I didn't catch the info earlier at Megna, but their summaries at the "home" page seem to point to this conclusion. '''Second:''' It was hinted at by Danja, but to me is now a serious consideration. That is, what if Shin Won was indeed another AKOM subcontractor? I said before that Shin Won might not have done anything beyond in-betweening, but that was because I assumed they worked for Toei, but if it was AKOM, it'd be nice to hope that would blow this case wide open, especially considering.... '''Third:''' Have you seen TV Tropes lately? suddenly, over the past month there's been a lot of new info entered regarding who did what on G1. Shin Won, Dai Won, Doga Kobo, etc.! I don't trust all of it - some info seems quite implausible - but the most interesting info concerns Shin Won working on episodes I always suspected were from AKOM. I'm considering all of it, but '''''GOT''''' dammit, ''why are there no citations?!?!?'' [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:51, 13 May 2023 (EDT)

== Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment ==

Yo! I think I’m onto something!

I looked at Daewon Media’s page on TV Tropes and looked at the list of 12 Transformers episodes they were sub-contracted (yes, Dai Won did '''THAT MANY'''). Auto Berserk was one of them, but in parenthesis was the name of a studio that isn’t normally subcontracted by Toei or AKOM — Sunrise, the studio behind stuff like Gundam & Cowboy Bebop. I had a look at the studios that have subcontracted Sunrise in the past, and all answers landed on Studio Deen, the company behind the Ranma 1/2 anime adaptation.

It’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but I think it’s very possible that the studio behind Auto Berserk & A Prime Problem could very well be Studio Deen. Likewise, for Decepticon Raider & Triple Takeover, the models for the human characters are very ''Spider-Man 1994'' -esque - especially Nimue in Decepticon Raider & the football stadium people in Triple Takeover. Again, it’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but TMS very well could have done Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider.

I’m not entirely confident on who animated Make Tracks now, due to this. The human characters look similar to what Sunrise would do with Cowboy Bebop, but there are some moments where it looks Spider-Man like ("No, Sideswipe… trust him… he’s my friend"), but I’ll keep digging.

== Update 1 ==

Sunrise actually DID do Make Tracks, but ''not'' A Prime Problem. Still 4 episodes down, though - just swap A Prime Problem for Make Tracks. That means now I have to do digging on who was behind A Prime Problem.

[[User:JustACollector|JustACollector]] ([[User talk:JustACollector|talk]]) 12:12, 8 December 2024 (EST)

User:JustACollector

2024-12-08T17:22:56Z

JustACollector: Starting my user page.

Yo! J.C. here!

Transformers has been part of my life since I was a kid - I grew up with G1 & the Michael Bay movies - but I feel like seeing Animated Season 2’s finale is when I truly became a fan. Have toys from across various lines - G1 to Legacy - and I got my first Beast Wars toy, Iguanus! I plan on one day hoping regain the toy collection my dad sadly lost in a fire.

It’s a honor to meet everyone here!

[[User:JustACollector|JustACollector]] ([[User talk:JustACollector|talk]]) 12:22, 8 December 2024 (EST)

Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

2024-12-08T17:12:39Z

JustACollector: /* Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment */ new section

I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".

::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".

::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.

::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)

== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==

Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

==Identification criteria?==

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}

== I might have cracked it ==

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.

::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).

::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.

::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").

::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".

::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.

::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".

::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.

::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense...
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)
===A sudden twist!===
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)

AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.

(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

==That's some good work, Lou==

I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

== Carnage in C-Minor ==

Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)

==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==

Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)

== Ashi Productions ==

The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions]]? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST
:The animation style of "Call of the Primitives" is completely different from any of the episodes we've attributed to this studio, so unlikely. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:14, 29 March 2020 (EDT)

== Sei Young Animation Co ==

A possibility worth exploring is Korean company Sei Young Animation Co. Marvel used them for 63 episodes of Defenders Of The Earth in 1985 and 1986. They had a very Toei-esque style, having collaborated with them at various points since 1978. It would make sense if the purpose of sending 10 episodes to other studios in season 2, apart from the immediate benefit of taking pressure off Toei, was a test run before commissioning these studios full-time on other shows (AKOM would gradually become Marvel's primary animator). [[User:Greebtron|Greebtron]] ([[User talk:Greebtron|talk]]) 20:18, 21 April 2020 (EDT)
: I think you might be on to something here, at least with a few of the uglier looking episodes like "Kremzeek". It reminds me a bit of the feel and quality seen in some Toei-associated episodes of the time like "Child's Play" or "The Gambler". Heck, it actually wouldn't surprise me if Sei Young actually did those episodes too (under contract of Toei and not Marvel directly, of course). But that's just my thoughts on the matter, anyway. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 19:43, 20 July 2020 (EDT)

== (Season 3) Toei's 13th episode? ==

So I was skimming through the Season 3 episode articles because this was bothering me, but since "Surprise Party" was recently found out to be a Sei Young episode, that leaves Toei with only twelve confirmed Season 3 episodes, even though their resume says they did thirteen.

So my theories are:

1. Either "Surprise Party" was a Toei episode that Sei Young worked on (which would be expected giving their working relationship) and Sei Young simply sent Marvel the finished episode in Toei's place (I don't know the ins-and-outs of outsourcing animation but I think it's a possibility), leaving "Call of the Primitives" the weird outlier.

OR

2. "Surprise Party" was directly assigned to Sei Young, and "Call of the Primitives" was assigned to Toei, and Toei decided to subcontract the work to another studio (possibly Ashi Productions, going by the trivia note on the episode page). We know AKOM did the same thing with "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human", so it's not without precedent.

I could just be rambling nonsense, and the edit to the "Surprise" article was very recent, but I felt this needed to be brought up. --[[User:TheAmazingPoncho|TheAmazingPoncho]] ([[User talk:TheAmazingPoncho|talk]]) 21:33, 28 July 2020 (EDT)

== A possibility, perhaps? ==

So seeing how we finally found out that "Call' was a Toei episode farmed to another company ([[Studio Look]]), it got me wondering about Ashi Pro's involvement in the series regarding their work on the show and I found [https://w.atwiki.jp/sakuga/?cmd=word&word=%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC&type=&pageid=309 this]. It mentions both Habara's involvement on "Heavy Metal War" and Ashi's overall work on the show to his best recollection. The other episodes featured are labeled as "3, 8, 13, 22 and 32". Problem number 1 is that it's difficult as to what order the list is referring to as the English and Japanese broadcast airings are different to both.

Going by the English order, the episodes consist of "More Than Meets the Eye, Part 3", "S.O.S. Dinobots", "The Ultimate Doom, Part 3", "The Imobilizer" and "The Master Builders". Whereas in Japanese, while the first episode is identical, the other ones in that order consists of "War of the Dinobots", "Traitor", "A Prime Problem" and "The God Gambit". Problem no. 2 with that is with the Japanese order, which just straight on Toei or Korean-contracted-under-Toei titles (barring "Prime Problem", which we know is the work of the still-unidentified mystery studio), so I assume the page meant the original English order, which by extension marks "Roll For It" as a possible Ashi episode due to the similarities between it and "S.O.S." But again, that order is also pretty suspect as neither "Imobilizer" or "Master Builders" look anything like an Ashi-contracted episode and more like one of the Toei-supervised Korean episodes of Season 2.

Still, thought this was interesting all things considered. Any thoughts? [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 17:14, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:What if you exclude the More Than Meets the Eye miniseries from the enumeration? It was produced separately, after all. What are episodes 3, 8, 13, 22, and 32 then? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:00, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
:And could it only be referring to Season 2? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 19:03, 12 September 2020 (EDT)
::Now that's the million dollar question I want to know the answer to, as the page I linked to considers it and the rest of Season 1 as one entity and not two separately produced batches. Not to mention this very wiki doesn't seem to discern the difference either and lumps the pilot in with the rest of the series, so I'm mostly basing my speculations towards that. Also, I think the count is for both, Seasons 1 and 2 if we take that into consideration. Only thing to do now is either ask Habara for clarification or wait until production sheets for the first two seasons surface before making better judgement.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 11:43, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
:::Seasons 1 and 2 use the same format of production codes, but the pilot is separate. The pilot is codes 4023, 4024, and 4025. Season 1 proper runs from 700-01 to 700-13 and Season 2 runs from 700-16 to 700-64. You have to go to the individual episode pages to get these, though. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:49, 14 September 2020 (EDT)
::::3 = [[Divide and Conquer]], 8 = [[The Ultimate Doom, Part 1]], 13 = [[Heavy Metal War]], 22 = [[The Autobot Run]], and 32 = [[Auto Berserk]], based on production codes.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:56, 21 September 2020 (EDT)
:::::And that makes no sense we we already know The Autobot Run is very obviously AKOM, which again brings up the question of what the source I found is exactly meaning with its episode order. There's also the fact that the page seem to explicitly mention Heavy Metal War's order in both versions of the series (10 in Japanese, 16 in the original US). So I don't really know what to think.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 14:29, 26 September 2020 (EDT)

== Asking Dery ==

This might be opening a ''terrible'' idea (I've read his talk page), but do you think if anyone could get a hold of Floro Dery he could shed some light on this? He was a design supervisor and ''might'' have some info? I also have no idea if he's lived in the Philippines for all this time but if he was in the animation scene around then he might have a better idea of what studios were operating at the time that could've been the illusive studio. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 13:18, 2 December 2020 (EST)

== Another Possibility ==

Been sitting on this for a while now, but a thought crossed my mind fairly recently. With the reveal that Sei Young was the one responsible (or at least credited for) Surprise Party, it got me to thinking- What if one or more of the episodes attributed to this unknown studio are actually Sei Young's work? Comparing their work on Surprise Party or even Season 2 episodes credited to Toei like Child's Play or The Master Builders to say, Kremzeek or Triple Takeover, they look pretty similar. Call me crazy, but I certainly feel I might have stumbled onto something. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 21:25, 23 January 2021 (EST)

== A Possible Suggestion ==

I know this is probably a longshot, but has anyone actually asked any of the show's animators on the Japanese side of things? Not many of the US-based crew seem willing to answer (presuming they even have the materials to begin with), but I feel like if anyone could get in touch with an animator from the Japan side of the coin. We could hopefully get a better idea as to who did what episode. The problem though, from what I see is two-fold. The first is that I wouldn't know which among us would even know enough Japanese to properly ask the question in the first place. The second is whether or not said animators would even remember working on the show to begin with (assuming they did in the first place). Especially since for most of them it'd be among their first credits, and animators who were active during the 1980s usually seem to ignore that period where Japan got most of America's animation outside of some exceptions. Either way though, I think it'd be worth an attempt if nothing more. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 01:16, 15 July 2022 (EDT)

==Shin Won?==

I tweeted to the Wiki account and [[User:Chris_McFeely|Chris McFeely]] about this last year and promptly forgot all about it, but it's a possible lead. The [https://web.archive.org/web/20211201064759/https://digilander.libero.it/dottor_vaffa/ Megna Co-Productions database] lists the following studios as having worked on Transformers: Toei, Sei Young, Dai Won, Shin Won, Sam Young and Akom. Most of those are accounted for here, except Shin Won, so I did some digging.

According to the [https://www.kmdb.or.kr/db/per/00003442 Korean Movie Database] they were known as "Educational Fairy Tale" (or just Gyoyuk, which I guess is Korean for educational fairy tale - I'm using Google Translate for most of this) until 1986, when they became Shin Won and then "Production Grimi" in the late 90s. They're now defunct, it seems. Their [https://web.archive.org/web/20030215231041fw_/http://www.grimi.co.kr/index02.html official website circa 2003] (thanks to the Wayback Machine) has them claiming credit for work on various anime, Transformers, GI Joe, Jem, Real Ghostbusters, Dennis and, crucially, Teddy Ruxpin. Checking back on Megna, the Shin Won is the ''only'' studio attributed to Teddy Ruxpin. The [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php?id=1361 Anime News Network] profile for them has them credited on different shows with everything from "colour co-ordination check" to in-betweening to finish animation to paint to just "animation". So while it's entirely possible their contribution to Transformers was out-source assistance work to Toei or Akom, like Dai Won and Sam Young, that variety of contributions and Teddy Ruxpin suggests they're capable of producing entire episodes independently and so could be the mystery studio.

There are potential issues with this of course. First is that Wikipedia credits Teddy Ruxpin to Atkinson Film-Arts (along with DiC), who I don't know enough about to know whether they animated in-house or out-sourced the main work uncredited. Megna doesn't mention Atkinson at all for Teddy Ruxpin. Second is that Megna doesn't cite its sources, although Shin Won's own website is presumably the source in this case. Would they have reason to lie? Seems unlikely, but can't be ruled out, I guess. I suppose the acid test would be watching some Teddy Ruxpin. [[User:Danja|Danja]] ([[User talk:Danja|talk]]) 07:02, 26 January 2023 (EST)

:It's possible, That database is weird when it comes to listing outsourcing studios. And given how little we know about the studios in question (acid testing is how I was able to deduce some of the efforts of Anime R, Nakamura Pro, and Studio Look for Toei's episodes since two of them --R and Look-- lack websites and the third --Nakamura Pro-- ''has'' a website, but lacks a proper resume thanks to all the work they've done), it's possible we might have Shin Won doing an episode or two on their own. And if so, I can see them handling "Krmezeek", "Triple Takeover" and "The Secret of Omega Supreme" at least, leaving "Make Tracks", "A Prime Problem" and "Auto-Berserk" the remaining outliers if that is the case.

:As far as Teddy Ruxpin is concerned, Atkinson handled most of the pre-production services. The animation, as per usual with DiC, went to Asian studios uncredited (no idea if this tied into union rules being exploited like with Marvel, or DiC just being dicks), so Shin Won being involved might be something to look into so we can try and acid wash some of their episodes. Again, it bites not having the proper documentation for these things.[[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 05:18, 4 February 2023 (EST)

UPDTATE (since I forgot this thought initially): Is it possible that Shin Won also worked on some of the uglier-looking Toei episodes as well? I'm looking over some of the more infamous ones like "Child's Play" and "Starscream's Brigade" (credited to both Nakamura Pro and Sei Young alongside Toei currently; though I have my doubts about the Korean studio's involvement going over it), and it certainly feels like "Kremzeek" and "Triple Takeover" both have similar faults as the other episodes I just mentioned. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 13:25, 14 February 2023 (EST)

:Speaking of acid tests, that's exactly what I did regarding "Teddy Ruxpin", so I'll mention that I had no help there. Good news is, the Megna database seems to be the most accurate resource to date, so I count this and the fact that most of our "research material" is readily available on youtube as the two most important breakthroughs. Bad news, at least as far as "Teddy" is concerned, is that Megna may only be listing Korean OEM in this case, so stuff has to be missing. "Teddy" makes no sense in that some episodes are clearly done in Japan and some in Korea, but they list a "Kazumi Fukushima" as "animation director" or "animation consultant", but also credit "key animation" to a bunch of people with ''Western'' and ''European'' names! What?!? I was much more successful after watching "Jem", because there are only 11 episodes not produced by Toei, they look quite a bit different from the rest, but also have, to my eyes, no similarity whatsoever to anything on "Transformers". I feel comfortable saying that Shin Won could not have done anything above the level of in-between work. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:40, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

==I'm on a mission to identify all AKOM eps and it's a chore==

Longtime G1 fan, 1st time caller here. I can't say much now, because I have zero free time, but I'm just starting a couple of huge projects relating to a library of G1 episodes I'm editing for my personal collection, and it would likely be of interest to the community here. One project is heavy research on who did what animation. This started because I've been away from the fandom for decades, and noticed recently a hell of a lot of errors in information regarding the animation studios involved. This has been going on since I came across Hasbro Pulse TF eps on youtube several months ago, and you will see tons of comments left by me saying basically those 3 episodes (you know the ones) were absolutely NOT by AKOM, and a bunch of other mistaken assumptions came out of that mistaken assumption. It's amazing that no one seemed to make the connection to other, earlier Marvel shows. Remember "Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends"? Since TF first aired, I immediately recognized animation similar to that show. Three eps are by Toei, but for all the rest, the credits say "Produced in association with MiHahn, Inc." They were a South Korean outfit, which according to scant info also outsourced to other studios. Whether any of those are based in the Phillipines, I don't know, but as far as I'm concerned, I go with "suspected to be by MiHahn". I'm maintaining a spreadsheet, and I will take everything else written here into consideration. When I'm finished identifying all AKOM eps to the best of my ability to detect these various animation techniques, I will let folks know. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 20:27, 6 April 2023 (EDT)

:Anything helps, I'm getting really tired of trying to identify episodes by eye to the point I don't know how many I have accurate and how many I'm completely wrong about (the downside to acid testing is that there are plenty of episodes with similar styles). Both for Toei and AKOM alike. This is why I wish we had full production materials, if they still exist, regarding who did what, so can't wait for that spreadsheet. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:31, 8 April 2023 (EDT)

::Agreed with everything you say, but I haven't given up identifying by looking just yet. I now have other asks and thoughts available, '''so here's my update'''. I haven't completely ruled out AKOM possibly subcontracting whoever worked on what I call the three Season 2 "PSE-style" eps (for "Pan Sang East"). It's certainly not in-house. If that's what's happened, then I currently believe the ten non-Toei eps from Season 2 are all AKOM. I left a discussion note in "Only Human", and I'm writing one now for "Triple Takeover". I'm not ready to share the spreadsheet, but all of my thoughts and best guesses so far are now at my user page, and anyone can feel free to discuss there; I promise to consider everything. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 18:20, 6 May 2023 (EDT)

::One more thing, because it occurred to me after being at the chat and after more research: I've said that Sam Young in Season 3 was such trash there's no point in comparing with anything else, but I've just run all the way thru the "Jem" series, and Sam Young's work seems to be quite a bit better, and that makes for a good reminder that '''budget''' may play as much of a role as any studio. We say that "Brigade" looks particularly nasty, so it couldn't be Sei Young, but I do see enough similarities that I don't disbelieve Sei Young involvement; it could be a matter of a lower budget making things worse and smushing the hell out of Powerglide's face, at least in this case. Check out the G.I. Joe episode "Haul Down the Heavens": I'm almost convinced it's the same situation, a really janky version of Sei Young. Some Sei Young stuff in "Defenders of the Earth" can get hella janky too at times. By the same token, Sam Young may have some arguably decent work in the "Jem" series, and then we get G1 "Carnage". I'm actually jealous of how many times Toei's good teams help the ladies out while us "lousy Autobot lovers" get shipped to Korea. [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 04:18, 7 May 2023 (EDT)

UPDATE: I don't want to repeat myself since all new info is reflected on my user page, but there are three interesting developments that I'll summarize here. '''First:''' I'm calling it.... "those three" are probably by '''Hanho Heung-Up''', possibly produced by MiHahn. I'm sorry I didn't catch the info earlier at Megna, but their summaries at the "home" page seem to point to this conclusion. '''Second:''' It was hinted at by Danja, but to me is now a serious consideration. That is, what if Shin Won was indeed another AKOM subcontractor? I said before that Shin Won might not have done anything beyond in-betweening, but that was because I assumed they worked for Toei, but if it was AKOM, it'd be nice to hope that would blow this case wide open, especially considering.... '''Third:''' Have you seen TV Tropes lately? suddenly, over the past month there's been a lot of new info entered regarding who did what on G1. Shin Won, Dai Won, Doga Kobo, etc.! I don't trust all of it - some info seems quite implausible - but the most interesting info concerns Shin Won working on episodes I always suspected were from AKOM. I'm considering all of it, but '''''GOT''''' dammit, ''why are there no citations?!?!?'' [[User:JoseBxR|JoseBxR]] ([[User talk:JoseBxR|talk]]) 19:51, 13 May 2023 (EDT)

== Studio Deen and TMS Entertainment ==

Yo! I think I’m onto something!

I looked at Daewon Media’s page on TV Tropes and looked at the list of 12 Transformers episodes they were sub-contracted (yes, Dai Won did '''THAT MANY'''). Auto Berserk was one of them, but in parenthesis was the name of a studio that isn’t normally subcontracted by Toei or AKOM — Sunrise, the studio behind stuff like Gundam & Cowboy Bebop. I had a look at the studios that have subcontracted Sunrise in the past, and all answers landed on Studio Deen, the company behind the Ranma 1/2 anime adaptation.

It’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but I think it’s very possible that the studio behind Auto Berserk & A Prime Problem could very well be Studio Deen. Likewise, for Decepticon Raider & Triple Takeover, the models for the human characters are very ''Spider-Man 1994'' -esque - especially Nimue in Decepticon Raider & the football stadium people in Triple Takeover. Again, it’s just a cop hunch at the moment, but TMS very well could have done Triple Takeover and Decepticon Raider.

I’m not entirely confident on who animated Make Tracks now, due to this. The human characters look similar to what Sunrise would do with Cowboy Bebop, but there are some moments where it looks Spider-Man like ("No, Sideswipe… trust him… he’s my friend"), but I’ll keep digging.

[[User:JustACollector|JustACollector]] ([[User talk:JustACollector|talk]]) 12:12, 8 December 2024 (EST)