MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Transformers (2023) issue 27

2026-05-05T12:39:43Z

Lush City: /* Transformers references */

{{Comicstory
|seriesissue=''[[Transformers (2023 comic)|Transformers]]'' #27
|prev=Transformers (2023) issue 26
|next=Transformers (2023) issue 28
|image=Transformers 2023 27 Cover B.jpg
|caption=
|title=
|publisher=[[Image Comics]]<br>[[Skybound Entertainment]]
|date=[[December 10]], [[2025]]
|coverdate=December 2025
|written by=[[Robert Kirkman]]
|art by=[[Dan Mora]]
|colors by=[[Mike Spicer]]
|letters by=[[Rus Wooton]]
|editor=[[Ben Abernathy]]
|publication design=[[Andres Juarez]]
|production=[[Ashby Florence]]
|continuity=[[Energon Universe]]
|chronology=
}}

'''With Teletraan back up and running, the long-dormant Autobots are reawakening and have to adjust to this new world... and their new teammates!'''

==Synopsis==
With [[Teletraan I]] repaired, the [[Autobot]]s have begun repairing more of their fallen warriors. However, some such as [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] and [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] are still far beyond repair. Outside the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]] and [[Carly (G1)|Carly]] talk about taking some time to repair themselves with a dinner away from the whirlwind of action their lives have been lately with the [[Transformer]]s. However, their conversation is interrupted by [[General Flagg]], who attempts to apologize to Carly for capturing and interrogating her, but is halted by [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]]. Magnus tells Flagg that it is only out of appreciation for his recent aid that Magnus hasn't told [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] about his capture and torture at Flagg's hands. However, Flagg defends his actions as the necessary precautions to defend his people against a hostile alien threat, ending with a veiled threat that Optimus Prime would understand. Magnus is left speechless.

At the [[Hoover Dam]], the [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticon]]s cause terror, blasting at fleeing humans while [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] siphons their electricity into [[Energon]] cubes. Suddenly, [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] teleports in and joins them in their carnage.

[[File:TF2023 no. 27 - Thundercracker Joins Autobots.jpg|thumb|left|Everything's turned upside-down now.|200px]]
Optimus Prime sits with [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]], who contemplates the cruelty with which his fellow [[Decepticon]]s have conducted themselves. Prime is heartened to know that Thundercracker shares his distaste for how their violence affects the innocents of [[Earth]], and admits that even the Autobots sometimes see the planet as beneath them. Thundercracker agrees, saying he would choose Skywarp over the humans, a mindset Prime does not begrudge.

At the [[Shadow Watch]] Underground Base, General Flagg meets with [[Miles Mayhem]], asking if Mayhem got everything he needs to complete his “little project” from the Transformers. Mayhem is indignant at this assessment, blustering that his technology is far more advanced than anything else on the planet, all thanks to ''his'' brilliance. When Flagg reminds him that [[Matt Trakker]] helped him with the project, Mayhem attacks him. However, Flagg easily dispenses with him, and due to the fact that Mayhem hasn't produced a single prototype, he sees no reason to keep him around as Director of Shadow Watch, ordering a group of soldiers to arrest him.

Back on the Ark, [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] pleads with Optimus to let himself get repaired, but Prime continues to put the needs of others before himself, suggesting they begin searching for the rest of the Autobots thrown from the Ark when it crashed. He also considers repairing the remaining Decepticons, but Thundercracker objects, fearing the harm that would come from his reawakened brothers and sisters. Prime agrees and finally decides to be repaired. Outside, Ultra Magnus meets with [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] and confesses to her that, after everything that has happened to him, he wishes to pass the title of Magnus to her. Inside, with Thundercracker having now replaced his Decepticon insignia with an Autobrand, the fully-repaired Optimus Prime tells his Autobots that they have a new mission: ridding the planet of all Decepticons once and for all!

On [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] sneaks through Decepticon territory with a handful of recovered pieces of equipment. However, while he can avoid the patrols of Decepticons on foot, he has no idea that his every movement is being watched from above… by [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]], still alive and atop one of the towers!

==Featured characters==
Characters in ''italic text'' appear only in flashbacks.<br>
{{Featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] (1)
* [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] (2)
* [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] (3)
* [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] (4)
* [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] (5)
* [[Bulkhead (G1)|Bulkhead]] (6)
* [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] (10)
* [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] (17)
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (18)
* [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] (20)
* [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] (24)
* [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] (25)
* [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] (26)
* [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (27)
* [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] (28)

|c2=
* [[Onslaught (G1)|Onslaught]] (11)
* [[Brawl (G1)|Brawl]] (12)
* [[Vortex (G1)|Vortex]] (13)
* [[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] (14)
* [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] (15)
* [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] (16)
* [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]] (21)
* [[Blitzwing (G1)|Blitzwing]] (22)
* [[Slipstream (G1)|Slipstream]] (23)
* [[Thrust (G1)|Thrust]] (29)
* [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] (30)

|c3=
* [[Carly (G1)|Carly]] (7)
* [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] (8)
* [[General Flagg]] (9)
* [[Miles Mayhem]] (19)
}}

==Quotes==
"There are those among my Autobots who see my actions on this world as folly. Even they, though good of heart, see this world as '''beneath''' us. '''Unworthy''' of our notice."<br/>
"Is it okay to admit there's a part of me that agrees with them? If I had to choose between Skywarp and a hundred of these creatures, I would choose Skywarp. But that doesn't mean I '''want''' them to die."
:—'''Optimus Prime''' and '''Thundercracker'''

"Man! You spend a few million years out cold and the standards sure do change around here! What’s next? [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] joining up?"
:—'''Bulkhead''', upon seeing Thundercracker with the Autobrand

"Run, run, little Autobot. I'll peel the steel from your frame soon enough. So swears... '''SHOCKWAVE.'''"
:—'''Shockwave''' returns.

==Notes==
===Continuity notes===
* Brawn and Blaster both had hi-and-bye cameos earlier in the series before appearing revived here (in the [[Transformers Energon Universe 2024 Special story| Free Comic Book Day 2024 story]] [[Transformers (2023) issue 5|and issue #5]], respectively).
* Jetfire has been fully repaired after being near-fatally wounded by [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] in [[Transformers (2023) issue 1|issue #1]] and revived but mode locked in [[Transformers (2023) issue 8|issue #8]].
* Jetfire remarks that there was good in Starscream once, something we saw — along with their friendship — in the flashbacks of [[Transformers (2023) issue 13|issues #13]] and [[Transformers (2023) issue 14|#14]].
* Carly and Ultra Magnus were captured by [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]]/Shadow Watch in [[Transformers (2023) issue 18|issue #18]].
* As Optimus and Thundercracker talk, we see a fully grown buck in a callback to the infamous deer scene from issue #2.
* Ratchet and [[Elita One (G1)|Elita One]] are the two who have been most critical towards Optimus for his prioritizing of Earth and the humans.
* General Flagg namedrops [[Matt Trakker]] as having worked with Mayhem on his "[[M.A.S.K.|little project]]". Readers were introduced to Trakker in [[G.I. Joe Energon Universe 2025 Special story|the ''G.I. Joe'' segment]] of the ''[[Energon Universe 2025 Special]]'', wherein he alluded to being on the run and involved in a dangerous secret project and showed awareness of the Transformers.
* Ultra Magnus has been dealing with post-traumatic stress ever since his capture and torture at the hands of Shockwave, as seen in [[Transformers (2023) issue 9|issue #9]].
* Wheeljack says that they've revived everyone who was accounted for in the ship, and that any other missing Autobots are expected to have been thrown from the ship when the Ark crashed. One of those Autobots is [[Hound (G1)|Hound]], who has been keeping busy in the pages of ''[[G.I. Joe (2024 comic)|G.I. Joe]]''.
* Shockwave was believed dead when Optimus Prime crushed his head with his bare hands in [[Transformers (2023) issue 12|issue #12]]. It seems he wasn't quite as dead as believed, but his body and head are still in a state of disrepair.

===Transformers references===
* This issue reveals that the "Magnus" part of Ultra Magnus's name is actually a title. While typically "Ultra Magnus" is simply the character's name, there have been instances where this is not the case. ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]]'' used "[[Magnus (rank)|Magnus]]" as the highest rank within the Autobots above [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] in a subversion of the usual pattern. The [[2005 IDW continuity]] featured "[[Ultra Magnus (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Ultra Magnus]]" as a pseudonym used by a variety of Autobot lawmen after the originator of the name (for whom it was simply his given name) was killed.
* The idea of Arcee becoming a Magnus was first introduced with in the ''[[Power of the Primes (franchise)|Power of the Primes]]'' [[Fan polls|fan poll]] for the next bearer of the [[Matrix of Leadership]] in ''Transformers'' lore. Although [[Optimus Primal (BW)/toys#Power of the Primes|Optimus Primal]] was the ultimate victor, Hasbro created preliminary design sketches and “Evolution” mode names for all the candidates. When asked at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2018, Design Manager [[John Warden]] could not remember what Arcee's name was but suggested that it was something along the lines of '''Arcana Magnus'''.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20201109030848/https://www.allspark.com/2018/07/new-info-about-war-for-cybertron-and-more-from-the-hasbro-preview-breakfast/ New Info About War For Cybertron and More from the Hasbro Preview Breakfast] (archived link)</ref>
* Among the deactivated Decepticons in the Ark are classic Decepticons Blitzwing, Dirge (officially completing the appearances of the [[Conehead]]s in the Energon Universe), and female [[Seeker (body-type)|Seeker]] Slipstream, a character who – like Bulkhead – began life in ''Transformers: Animated'' before making the jump to other iterations.
* While watching Thundercracker display his new Autobot symbols, Bulkhead jokingly wonders if Megatron is next to join them, an obvious reference to [[Megatron (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|the time Megatron ''did'' join the Autobots]].
* Optimus acknowledging that his flaw is projecting kindness onto those who have none, harkens back to his original character bio written by [[Bob Budiansky]] which lists Optimus being too compassionate as a major weakness of his.

===Real life references===
* The Hoover Dam is a real location that has appeared in Transformers fiction before, most notably in the [[2007]] ''[[Transformers (film)|Transformers]]'' film, as well as the [[Marvel Comics|Marvel]] ''[[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|Transformers]]'' issue "[[Aerialbots over America!]]"

===Errors===
* When Skywarp reintroduces himself to the Combaticons, his right [[null-ray]] is just kinda floating near his arm instead of being attached to anything.
* The page after Thundercracker shows off his Autobrand colors his eyes as blue instead of red. We're not sure if this is intentional or not since previous pages, including the page revealing him sporting the Autobot insignia, still had his eyes in red hues. However, we've seen Starscream's eyes change blue to red and back multiple times in this series, as well as Optimus' optics when he was under the influence of Megatron's arm.
* Not an out-and-out error per se... but this issue reveals that several inactive Decepticons, including at least Dirge, Slipstream, and Blitzwing, were left on the Ark. So, um...why didn't Starscream, Megatron, or Soundwave, who would have been in need of numbers on their side, bring them up at any point?
* Ultra Magnus's antenna are still being colored blue.

===Other notes===
* Miles says that his full name is "Miles McKane Mayhem."
* This issue's letters page includes a tribute to the late [[Ron Friedman]].
* Energon Experience: Presented by Skybound Executive Editor Ben Abernathy.
** '''Character Spotlight:''' Brawn
** '''Oh, Deer:''' Callback to the deer scene from issue #2.
** '''Creator Spotlight:''' Ben asks Robert Kirkman what his alt-mode would be. Kirkman would love to turn into a jet or spacecraft and fly around, but would probably actually turn into a keyboard or couch. Or his bed.

===Covers===
* '''Cover A:''' Soundwave, by [[David Nakayama]]
* '''Cover B:''' Optimus and Thundercracker sit together as the sun sets, by Daniel Warren Johnson and Mike Spicer.
* '''Cover C:''' Connecting cover, by [[Jorge Corona]] and Mike Spicer.
* '''Cover D:''' Thundercracker wears his new Autobot insignias, by [[Lorenzo De Felici]].
* '''Cover E:''' Design for Soundwave, by Dan Mora and [[Andres Juarez]].
* '''Big Time Collectibles Foil Virgin Variant:''' limited to 333 copies, by [[John Giang]]
* '''616 Comics Virgin Variant:''' limited to 750 copies, by [[Björn Barends]]
* '''616 Comics Foil Virgin Variant:''' limited to 750 copies, by Björn Barends
* '''The Iron Lion Variant:''' limited to 750 copies, by Caleb Ady
* '''Top Shelf Comic Virgin Variant:''' limited to 300 copies, by [[Jimbo Salgado]] and [[Alex Sinclair]]
* '''Top Shelf Comic Thank You Foil Virgin Variant:''' limited to 300 copies, by [[Jimbo Salgado]] and [[Alex Sinclair]]
* '''Top Shelf Comic Connecting Virgin Variant:''' limited to 300 copies, by [[Marcelo Matere]] and [[Alex Sinclair]]
* '''Top Shelf Comic Decepticon Connecting Virgin Variant:''' limited to 300 copies, by [[Marcelo Matere]] and [[Alex Sinclair]]
* '''Countdown Comics / Dark Lord Collectibles Foil Variant:''' limited to 750 copies, by [[Sal Amezcua]]
<gallery>
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover A.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover B.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover C.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover D.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover E.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Big Time Collectibles Cover.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 The 616 Comics Cover A.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 The 616 Comics Cover B.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 The Iron Lion Cover.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 TopShelfComic Cover A.jpg
File:Transformers 2023 27 TopShelfComic Cover B.jpg
File:Transformers 2023 27 TopShelfComic Cover C.jpg
File:Transformers 2023 27 TopShelfComic Cover D.jpg
File:Transformers 2023 27 Sal Amezcua Cover.jpg
</gallery>

===Advertisement===
* Explore the Energon Universe in ''[[G.I. Joe (2024 comic)|G.I. Joe]]'' [[G.I. Joe (2024) issue 16|#16]] and [[G.I. Joe (2024) issue 17|#17]] and ''[[Void Rivals]]'' [[Void Rivals issue 25|#25]].
* 3-page preview of the Quintesson War coming to ''Void Rivals'' #25!

===Reprints===
* '''''Transformers Volume 5: Generation One''''' <small>([[June 2]], [[2026]]) ISBN 153433355X / ISBN 978-1534333550</small>
** Collects ''Transformers'' issues #25–30
** Trade paperback format.

<gallery>
File:Transformers 2023 V5.jpg|'''''Volume 5: Generation One''''' – cover art by [[David Nakayama]]
</gallery>

[[Category:Transformers (2023) issues]]

Transformers (2023) issue 27

2026-05-05T12:39:31Z

Lush City: /* Transformers references */

{{Comicstory
|seriesissue=''[[Transformers (2023 comic)|Transformers]]'' #27
|prev=Transformers (2023) issue 26
|next=Transformers (2023) issue 28
|image=Transformers 2023 27 Cover B.jpg
|caption=
|title=
|publisher=[[Image Comics]]<br>[[Skybound Entertainment]]
|date=[[December 10]], [[2025]]
|coverdate=December 2025
|written by=[[Robert Kirkman]]
|art by=[[Dan Mora]]
|colors by=[[Mike Spicer]]
|letters by=[[Rus Wooton]]
|editor=[[Ben Abernathy]]
|publication design=[[Andres Juarez]]
|production=[[Ashby Florence]]
|continuity=[[Energon Universe]]
|chronology=
}}

'''With Teletraan back up and running, the long-dormant Autobots are reawakening and have to adjust to this new world... and their new teammates!'''

==Synopsis==
With [[Teletraan I]] repaired, the [[Autobot]]s have begun repairing more of their fallen warriors. However, some such as [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] and [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] are still far beyond repair. Outside the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike]] and [[Carly (G1)|Carly]] talk about taking some time to repair themselves with a dinner away from the whirlwind of action their lives have been lately with the [[Transformer]]s. However, their conversation is interrupted by [[General Flagg]], who attempts to apologize to Carly for capturing and interrogating her, but is halted by [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]]. Magnus tells Flagg that it is only out of appreciation for his recent aid that Magnus hasn't told [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] about his capture and torture at Flagg's hands. However, Flagg defends his actions as the necessary precautions to defend his people against a hostile alien threat, ending with a veiled threat that Optimus Prime would understand. Magnus is left speechless.

At the [[Hoover Dam]], the [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticon]]s cause terror, blasting at fleeing humans while [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] siphons their electricity into [[Energon]] cubes. Suddenly, [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] teleports in and joins them in their carnage.

[[File:TF2023 no. 27 - Thundercracker Joins Autobots.jpg|thumb|left|Everything's turned upside-down now.|200px]]
Optimus Prime sits with [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]], who contemplates the cruelty with which his fellow [[Decepticon]]s have conducted themselves. Prime is heartened to know that Thundercracker shares his distaste for how their violence affects the innocents of [[Earth]], and admits that even the Autobots sometimes see the planet as beneath them. Thundercracker agrees, saying he would choose Skywarp over the humans, a mindset Prime does not begrudge.

At the [[Shadow Watch]] Underground Base, General Flagg meets with [[Miles Mayhem]], asking if Mayhem got everything he needs to complete his “little project” from the Transformers. Mayhem is indignant at this assessment, blustering that his technology is far more advanced than anything else on the planet, all thanks to ''his'' brilliance. When Flagg reminds him that [[Matt Trakker]] helped him with the project, Mayhem attacks him. However, Flagg easily dispenses with him, and due to the fact that Mayhem hasn't produced a single prototype, he sees no reason to keep him around as Director of Shadow Watch, ordering a group of soldiers to arrest him.

Back on the Ark, [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] pleads with Optimus to let himself get repaired, but Prime continues to put the needs of others before himself, suggesting they begin searching for the rest of the Autobots thrown from the Ark when it crashed. He also considers repairing the remaining Decepticons, but Thundercracker objects, fearing the harm that would come from his reawakened brothers and sisters. Prime agrees and finally decides to be repaired. Outside, Ultra Magnus meets with [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] and confesses to her that, after everything that has happened to him, he wishes to pass the title of Magnus to her. Inside, with Thundercracker having now replaced his Decepticon insignia with an Autobrand, the fully-repaired Optimus Prime tells his Autobots that they have a new mission: ridding the planet of all Decepticons once and for all!

On [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] sneaks through Decepticon territory with a handful of recovered pieces of equipment. However, while he can avoid the patrols of Decepticons on foot, he has no idea that his every movement is being watched from above… by [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]], still alive and atop one of the towers!

==Featured characters==
Characters in ''italic text'' appear only in flashbacks.<br>
{{Featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] (1)
* [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] (2)
* [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] (3)
* [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]] (4)
* [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] (5)
* [[Bulkhead (G1)|Bulkhead]] (6)
* [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] (10)
* [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] (17)
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (18)
* [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] (20)
* [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] (24)
* [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] (25)
* [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] (26)
* [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (27)
* [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] (28)

|c2=
* [[Onslaught (G1)|Onslaught]] (11)
* [[Brawl (G1)|Brawl]] (12)
* [[Vortex (G1)|Vortex]] (13)
* [[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] (14)
* [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] (15)
* [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]] (16)
* [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]] (21)
* [[Blitzwing (G1)|Blitzwing]] (22)
* [[Slipstream (G1)|Slipstream]] (23)
* [[Thrust (G1)|Thrust]] (29)
* [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] (30)

|c3=
* [[Carly (G1)|Carly]] (7)
* [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] (8)
* [[General Flagg]] (9)
* [[Miles Mayhem]] (19)
}}

==Quotes==
"There are those among my Autobots who see my actions on this world as folly. Even they, though good of heart, see this world as '''beneath''' us. '''Unworthy''' of our notice."<br/>
"Is it okay to admit there's a part of me that agrees with them? If I had to choose between Skywarp and a hundred of these creatures, I would choose Skywarp. But that doesn't mean I '''want''' them to die."
:—'''Optimus Prime''' and '''Thundercracker'''

"Man! You spend a few million years out cold and the standards sure do change around here! What’s next? [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] joining up?"
:—'''Bulkhead''', upon seeing Thundercracker with the Autobrand

"Run, run, little Autobot. I'll peel the steel from your frame soon enough. So swears... '''SHOCKWAVE.'''"
:—'''Shockwave''' returns.

==Notes==
===Continuity notes===
* Brawn and Blaster both had hi-and-bye cameos earlier in the series before appearing revived here (in the [[Transformers Energon Universe 2024 Special story| Free Comic Book Day 2024 story]] [[Transformers (2023) issue 5|and issue #5]], respectively).
* Jetfire has been fully repaired after being near-fatally wounded by [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] in [[Transformers (2023) issue 1|issue #1]] and revived but mode locked in [[Transformers (2023) issue 8|issue #8]].
* Jetfire remarks that there was good in Starscream once, something we saw — along with their friendship — in the flashbacks of [[Transformers (2023) issue 13|issues #13]] and [[Transformers (2023) issue 14|#14]].
* Carly and Ultra Magnus were captured by [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]]/Shadow Watch in [[Transformers (2023) issue 18|issue #18]].
* As Optimus and Thundercracker talk, we see a fully grown buck in a callback to the infamous deer scene from issue #2.
* Ratchet and [[Elita One (G1)|Elita One]] are the two who have been most critical towards Optimus for his prioritizing of Earth and the humans.
* General Flagg namedrops [[Matt Trakker]] as having worked with Mayhem on his "[[M.A.S.K.|little project]]". Readers were introduced to Trakker in [[G.I. Joe Energon Universe 2025 Special story|the ''G.I. Joe'' segment]] of the ''[[Energon Universe 2025 Special]]'', wherein he alluded to being on the run and involved in a dangerous secret project and showed awareness of the Transformers.
* Ultra Magnus has been dealing with post-traumatic stress ever since his capture and torture at the hands of Shockwave, as seen in [[Transformers (2023) issue 9|issue #9]].
* Wheeljack says that they've revived everyone who was accounted for in the ship, and that any other missing Autobots are expected to have been thrown from the ship when the Ark crashed. One of those Autobots is [[Hound (G1)|Hound]], who has been keeping busy in the pages of ''[[G.I. Joe (2024 comic)|G.I. Joe]]''.
* Shockwave was believed dead when Optimus Prime crushed his head with his bare hands in [[Transformers (2023) issue 12|issue #12]]. It seems he wasn't quite as dead as believed, but his body and head are still in a state of disrepair.

===Transformers references===
* This issue reveals that the "Magnus" part of Ultra Magnus's name is actually a title. While typically "Ultra Magnus" is simply the character's name, there have been instances where this is not the case. ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]]'' used "[[Magnus (rank)|Magnus]]" as the highest rank within the Autobots above [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] in a subversion of the usual pattern. The [[2005 IDW continuity]] featured "[[Ultra Magnus (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Ultra Magnus]]" as a pseudonym used by a variety of Autobot lawmen after the originator of the name (for whom it was simply his given name) was killed.
* The idea of Arcee becoming a Magnus was first introduced with in the ''[[Power of the Primes (franchise)|Power of the Primes]]'' [[Fan polls|fan poll]] for the next bearer of the [[Matrix of Leadership]] in ''Transformers'' lore. Although [[Optimus Primal (BW)/toys#Power of the Primes|Optimus Primal]] was the ultimate victor, Hasbro created preliminary design sketches and “Evolution” mode names for all the candidates. When asked at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2018, Design Manager [[John Warden]] could not remember what Arcee's name was but suggested that it was something along the lines of '''Arcana Magnus'''.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20201109030848/https://www.allspark.com/2018/07/new-info-about-war-for-cybertron-and-more-from-the-hasbro-preview-breakfast/ New Info About War For Cybertron and More from the Hasbro Preview Breakfast] (archived link)</ref> That title would later be used
* Among the deactivated Decepticons in the Ark are classic Decepticons Blitzwing, Dirge (officially completing the appearances of the [[Conehead]]s in the Energon Universe), and female [[Seeker (body-type)|Seeker]] Slipstream, a character who – like Bulkhead – began life in ''Transformers: Animated'' before making the jump to other iterations.
* While watching Thundercracker display his new Autobot symbols, Bulkhead jokingly wonders if Megatron is next to join them, an obvious reference to [[Megatron (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|the time Megatron ''did'' join the Autobots]].
* Optimus acknowledging that his flaw is projecting kindness onto those who have none, harkens back to his original character bio written by [[Bob Budiansky]] which lists Optimus being too compassionate as a major weakness of his.

===Real life references===
* The Hoover Dam is a real location that has appeared in Transformers fiction before, most notably in the [[2007]] ''[[Transformers (film)|Transformers]]'' film, as well as the [[Marvel Comics|Marvel]] ''[[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|Transformers]]'' issue "[[Aerialbots over America!]]"

===Errors===
* When Skywarp reintroduces himself to the Combaticons, his right [[null-ray]] is just kinda floating near his arm instead of being attached to anything.
* The page after Thundercracker shows off his Autobrand colors his eyes as blue instead of red. We're not sure if this is intentional or not since previous pages, including the page revealing him sporting the Autobot insignia, still had his eyes in red hues. However, we've seen Starscream's eyes change blue to red and back multiple times in this series, as well as Optimus' optics when he was under the influence of Megatron's arm.
* Not an out-and-out error per se... but this issue reveals that several inactive Decepticons, including at least Dirge, Slipstream, and Blitzwing, were left on the Ark. So, um...why didn't Starscream, Megatron, or Soundwave, who would have been in need of numbers on their side, bring them up at any point?
* Ultra Magnus's antenna are still being colored blue.

===Other notes===
* Miles says that his full name is "Miles McKane Mayhem."
* This issue's letters page includes a tribute to the late [[Ron Friedman]].
* Energon Experience: Presented by Skybound Executive Editor Ben Abernathy.
** '''Character Spotlight:''' Brawn
** '''Oh, Deer:''' Callback to the deer scene from issue #2.
** '''Creator Spotlight:''' Ben asks Robert Kirkman what his alt-mode would be. Kirkman would love to turn into a jet or spacecraft and fly around, but would probably actually turn into a keyboard or couch. Or his bed.

===Covers===
* '''Cover A:''' Soundwave, by [[David Nakayama]]
* '''Cover B:''' Optimus and Thundercracker sit together as the sun sets, by Daniel Warren Johnson and Mike Spicer.
* '''Cover C:''' Connecting cover, by [[Jorge Corona]] and Mike Spicer.
* '''Cover D:''' Thundercracker wears his new Autobot insignias, by [[Lorenzo De Felici]].
* '''Cover E:''' Design for Soundwave, by Dan Mora and [[Andres Juarez]].
* '''Big Time Collectibles Foil Virgin Variant:''' limited to 333 copies, by [[John Giang]]
* '''616 Comics Virgin Variant:''' limited to 750 copies, by [[Björn Barends]]
* '''616 Comics Foil Virgin Variant:''' limited to 750 copies, by Björn Barends
* '''The Iron Lion Variant:''' limited to 750 copies, by Caleb Ady
* '''Top Shelf Comic Virgin Variant:''' limited to 300 copies, by [[Jimbo Salgado]] and [[Alex Sinclair]]
* '''Top Shelf Comic Thank You Foil Virgin Variant:''' limited to 300 copies, by [[Jimbo Salgado]] and [[Alex Sinclair]]
* '''Top Shelf Comic Connecting Virgin Variant:''' limited to 300 copies, by [[Marcelo Matere]] and [[Alex Sinclair]]
* '''Top Shelf Comic Decepticon Connecting Virgin Variant:''' limited to 300 copies, by [[Marcelo Matere]] and [[Alex Sinclair]]
* '''Countdown Comics / Dark Lord Collectibles Foil Variant:''' limited to 750 copies, by [[Sal Amezcua]]
<gallery>
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover A.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover B.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover C.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover D.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Cover E.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 Big Time Collectibles Cover.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 The 616 Comics Cover A.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 The 616 Comics Cover B.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 The Iron Lion Cover.jpg|
File:Transformers 2023 27 TopShelfComic Cover A.jpg
File:Transformers 2023 27 TopShelfComic Cover B.jpg
File:Transformers 2023 27 TopShelfComic Cover C.jpg
File:Transformers 2023 27 TopShelfComic Cover D.jpg
File:Transformers 2023 27 Sal Amezcua Cover.jpg
</gallery>

===Advertisement===
* Explore the Energon Universe in ''[[G.I. Joe (2024 comic)|G.I. Joe]]'' [[G.I. Joe (2024) issue 16|#16]] and [[G.I. Joe (2024) issue 17|#17]] and ''[[Void Rivals]]'' [[Void Rivals issue 25|#25]].
* 3-page preview of the Quintesson War coming to ''Void Rivals'' #25!

===Reprints===
* '''''Transformers Volume 5: Generation One''''' <small>([[June 2]], [[2026]]) ISBN 153433355X / ISBN 978-1534333550</small>
** Collects ''Transformers'' issues #25–30
** Trade paperback format.

<gallery>
File:Transformers 2023 V5.jpg|'''''Volume 5: Generation One''''' – cover art by [[David Nakayama]]
</gallery>

[[Category:Transformers (2023) issues]]

Nemesis Prime (Prime)

2017-08-30T05:35:10Z

Lush City:

{{faction|decepticon}}
{{disambig3|Nemesis Prime}}
:''Nemesis Prime is a [[MECH]]-created [[Transformer]] from the [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)|Prime portion]] of the [[Aligned continuity family]].''

[[File:NemesisPrime-NemesisPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|He's [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)|''Prime'']] Nemesis Prime from [[Nemesis Prime (episode)|"Nemesis Prime."]](Not to be confused with [[Nemesis (Prime)]])]]

The human-manufactured robot known as '''Nemesis Prime''' is a mindless drone created by [[MECH]], controlled remotely by a human operator. In order to cause psychological, as well as literal, damage, the machine was built in the exact likeness of [[Optimus Prime (WFC)|Optimus Prime]], the leader of the [[Autobot]]s. Nemesis is capable of operating as both a semi-rig truck and a humanoid combat robot with the same strength, agility, and firepower as the original article, except with MECH leader [[Silas]] in control. Having no mind of its own, it therefore has none of Prime's moral strengths, and also lacks any form of pain receptors, making it an utterly merciless killer.

==Fiction==
===''Prime'' cartoon===
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Cullen]] (English), [[Clancy Brown]] (English), [[Toshiyuki Morikawa]] (Japanese), [[Unshō Ishizuka]] (Japanese)|[[Blas Garcia]] (Latin American Spanish), [[Humberto Solórzano]] (Latin American Spanish), [[Pekka Lehtosaari]] (Finnish)}}
[[Image:OperationBumblebee1 fruits of Project Chimera.jpg|thumb|left|350px|"Just you wait, [[Thaddeus Morocco|Morocco]]! I can build a Transformer too!"]]
Nemesis Prime was the culmination of MECH's [[Project Chimera]], an almost exact copy of [[Optimus Prime (WFC)|Optimus Prime]] controlled by [[Silas]] from MECH's base of operations. {{storylink|Nemesis Prime (episode)|Nemesis Prime}} In preparation for Nemesis Prime's creation, MECH took a complete scan of Optimus Prime's body {{storylink|Convoy (episode)|Convoy}} and abducted and analysed [[Breakdown (WFC)|Breakdown]]'s body components. {{storylink|Operation: Breakdown}}

To finalize the prototype, MECH stole [[Bumblebee (WFC)|Bumblebee's]] [[Transformation cog|T-cog]] and installed it in the robot. The first attempt to create Nemesis Prime, however, was less than a success without access to [[Energon]]. They were helped by [[Starscream (WFC)|Starscream]], now a rogue, who approached MECH with a deal to give them access to Energon so long as Starscream had a share of it. {{storylink|Operation Bumblebee, Part 1}} After finding and processing some Energon, the Nemesis Prime prototype began to work. But a vengeful Bumblebee stormed the base and took back his missing part, heavily damaging the prototype in the process. To compensate for his loss, Silas turned on his ally, taking Starscream's T-cog {{storylink|Operation Bumblebee, Part 2}} and installing it into Nemesis Prime's body.

[[File:NemesisPrime Nemesis Prime truck in base.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.4|"No, I didn't see any [[Tow-Line (RID)|'No Parking']] sign. Why do you ask?"]]
On its first excursion, Nemesis Prime attempted to ram [[William Fowler|Agent Fowler]] off a bridge, but retreated when the [[Autobot]]s arrived on the scene. [[Arcee (WFC)|Arcee]] followed it into an abandoned petrol station when Nemesis blindsided her, knocking her unconscious. It later attempted to frame Optimus Prime and the Autobots by transforming and attacking [[Alden Military Base]]. It made another retreat when the ''real'' Autobots showed up, though the damage was done: many of the base's vehicles were destroyed and the blame was on Optimus Prime.

Nemesis Prime next confronted the Autobots when they were closing in on MECH's base, taking them out one-by-one. Optimus confronted it in combat after the other Autobots had been defeated. After a lengthy battle, it seemed that Nemesis Prime had the advantage since it was impervious to pain. But before Nemesis could finish off his foe, Silas had to vacate the robot's control chair to battle Agent Fowler, who had made his way into the building and taken out the other MECH members in the room. Nemesis was left immobile in the interim, allowing Optimus to gain the upper hand. After defeating Fowler, Silas desperately jumped back into the chair, but was too late. Optimus smashed Nemesis through the roof of MECH's base, crushing both the equipment controlling it and Silas himself. The heavily wounded MECH leader was pulled to safety by his men. {{storylink|Nemesis Prime (episode)|Nemesis Prime}}

[[File:NemesisPrime Nemesis vs Optimus.jpg|thumb|200px|left|This is what you get for calling me [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]]!]]
Nemesis Prime's body was placed in storage by the military. General [[Bryce]] mistook it for Optimus Prime and believed the Autobot leader was dead. He abruptly changed his mind during Fowler's testimony when he had an unscheduled face-to-face conversation with Optimus. {{storylink|Grill (episode)|Grill}}
{{--}}

==Toys==
===Prime===
[[File:Primetoy-TakaraTomy-NemesisPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|Available in Regular or "Sour Teal Twist".]]
*'''Nemesis Prime''' (Voyager, 2012)
**''Japanese release date:'' '''[[2012]]-[[November 24|11-24]]'''
**''Japanese Number:'' '''AM-25'''
**''Accessories'': "Giza" Arms Micron

: Part of the eighth wave of [[TakaraTomy]] ''[[Transformers: Prime (toyline)|Prime]]'' toys, Nemesis Prime is a metallic-[[Black repaint|black]], dark-gray, and translucent-red [[redeco]] of [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Voyager|AM-01 Optimus Prime]], and transforms into a long-nosed semi truck. Marketed as a Decepticon, he uses foil [[sticker]]s for his headlights and [[insignia]]s, and the sticker sheet also includes an optional set of teal sticker details to apply. Unfortunately, the required placement of an insignia sticker for his right [[robot mode]] shoulder conflicts with the optional placement of a sticker that forms the left half of the teal deco for the truck mode roof.

:He comes with [[Giza (Prime)|Giza]], a robotic [[wikipedia:Sawshark|saw shark]] who transforms into a sword that's based on one of Optimus Prime's arm blades. It pegs into his hand via [[5mm post]], covering the hand to give the appearance of integrated weaponry. Nemesis features numerous additional peg-holes on his person, and the roof of the cab can also fold back to reveal two hidden peg-holes in [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]].

:The Hasbro version of this mold, but with the forearms from this tooling, was [[retool]]ed to make ''Prime: [[Beast Hunters (toyline)|Beast Hunters]]'' [[Ultra Magnus (WFC)#Beast Hunters|Ultra Magnus]].

==See also==
*[[Hunter Nemesis Prime|''Go!'' Hunter Nemesis Prime]]
*[[Nemesis Prime (Adventure)|''Adventure'' Nemesis Prime]]

[[Category:Drones]]
[[Category:Evil clones]]
[[Category:Man-made Transformers]]
[[Category:MECH]]
[[Category:Prime Decepticons]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2017-08-08T01:13:36Z

Lush City: /* Kre-O pages with toys */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2017-08-08T01:12:53Z

Lush City: /* Kre-O pages with toys */

Aurex 606.0 Kappa

2017-08-08T01:10:45Z

Lush City:

[[File:Transformerscybertronquestforcybertron.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Doesnt even exist and ''still'' has more fiction than Movie Lugnut.]]

'''Aurex 606.0 Kappa''' is a universe in the [[Aurex]] universal cluster. ''Or is it?!?''

==Fiction==
===Ask Vector Prime===
In Aurex 606.0 Kappa, [[Unicron]] grabbed [[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] and [[Firebot (Armada)|Firebot]] to participate in the [[Universe War]]. They were later unable to return home to this reality, as it apparently (and confusingly) never existed in the first place. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime, 2015/09/14}}

==Notes==
* Aurex 606.0 Kappa is the [[universal stream]] designation of the unreleased ''[[Transformers Cybertron: Quest for Cybertron]]'' video game. Its specifications come from when the project was announced.
** The universe never existing at all is a nod to the canceled status of the game. How Unicron could grab bots from a universe that never existed is something that maybe only [[Vector Prime]] could understand.

[[Category:Cybertron locations]]
[[Category:Things that don't exist]]
[[Category:Universes]]

Aurex 606.0 Kappa

2017-08-08T01:09:27Z

Lush City:

[[File:Transformerscybertronquestforcybertron.jpg|right|250px|Doesnt even exist and ''still'' has more fiction than Movie Lugnut.||]]

'''Aurex 606.0 Kappa''' is a universe in the [[Aurex]] universal cluster. ''Or is it?!?''

==Fiction==
===Ask Vector Prime===
In Aurex 606.0 Kappa, [[Unicron]] grabbed [[Red Alert (Armada)|Red Alert]] and [[Firebot (Armada)|Firebot]] to participate in the [[Universe War]]. They were later unable to return home to this reality, as it apparently (and confusingly) never existed in the first place. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime, 2015/09/14}}

==Notes==
* Aurex 606.0 Kappa is the [[universal stream]] designation of the unreleased ''[[Transformers Cybertron: Quest for Cybertron]]'' video game. Its specifications come from when the project was announced.
** The universe never existing at all is a nod to the canceled status of the game. How Unicron could grab bots from a universe that never existed is something that maybe only [[Vector Prime]] could understand.

[[Category:Cybertron locations]]
[[Category:Things that don't exist]]
[[Category:Universes]]

Shocknado

2017-08-08T01:07:17Z

Lush City:

{{faction|decepticon}}
:''Shocknado is a [[Decepticon]] [[combiner]] from the [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] portion of the [[Aligned continuity family]].''
[[File:RIDart-Shocknado.jpg|upright=1.33|thumb]]

'''Shocknado''' is the combined form of [[Shockdrive]] and [[Warnado]].

{{TOCclear}}

==Toys==
===Robots in Disguise (2015)===
[[File:TF-RID2015-Crash-Combiner-Shocknado.jpg|upright=1.33|thumb|left|250px|Coming soon to Scyfy channel!]]
*'''Shocknado''' (Crash Combiner, 2017)

:Released as part of the third wave of [[Transformers:_Robots_in_Disguise_(2015_toyline)#Crash_Combiners|''Robots in Disguise'' Crash Combiners]], Shocknado is a [[redeco]] and [[retool]] of fellow Crash Combiner [[Skyhammer (RID)|Skyhammer]] in all purple livery, and a retooled head with the horns being "[[for safety reasons|rounded]]". Shocknado consists of two Scout-sized figures: [[Shockdrive]] and [[Warnado]]. Each figures has very simple transformations from vehicle to robot, or they can combine to form into Shocknado. Shocknado features limited articulation on the shoulders, and features 5mm-compatible hands. Shockdrive and Warnado can also combine with the rest of the Crash Combiners to form a random Combiner.

:His torso mode features a scannable badge on his chest, which is compatible to the [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (mobile game)|mobile game app]]. Scanning the badge temporarily unlocks Shocknado in the game.

==Notes==
* His name sounds too much like ''{{w|Sharknado}}'' to just be a coincidence.

[[Category:Combined forms]]
[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2015) Decepticons]]
[[Category:Toy-only characters]]

Shocknado

2017-08-08T01:06:37Z

Lush City: /* Toys */

{{faction|decepticon}}
:''Shocknado is a [[Decepticon]] [[combiner]] from the [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] portion of the [[Aligned continuity family]].''
[[File:RIDart-Shocknado.jpg|upright=1.33|thumb]]

'''Shocknado''' is the combined form of [[Shockdrive]] and [[Warnado]].

{{TOCclear}}

==Toys==
===Robots in Disguise (2015)===
[[File:TF-RID2015-Crash-Combiner-Shocknado.jpg|upright=1.33|thumbleft|250px|Coming soon to Scyfy channel!]]
*'''Shocknado''' (Crash Combiner, 2017)

:Released as part of the third wave of [[Transformers:_Robots_in_Disguise_(2015_toyline)#Crash_Combiners|''Robots in Disguise'' Crash Combiners]], Shocknado is a [[redeco]] and [[retool]] of fellow Crash Combiner [[Skyhammer (RID)|Skyhammer]] in all purple livery, and a retooled head with the horns being "[[for safety reasons|rounded]]". Shocknado consists of two Scout-sized figures: [[Shockdrive]] and [[Warnado]]. Each figures has very simple transformations from vehicle to robot, or they can combine to form into Shocknado. Shocknado features limited articulation on the shoulders, and features 5mm-compatible hands. Shockdrive and Warnado can also combine with the rest of the Crash Combiners to form a random Combiner.

:His torso mode features a scannable badge on his chest, which is compatible to the [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (mobile game)|mobile game app]]. Scanning the badge temporarily unlocks Shocknado in the game.

==Notes==
* His name sounds too much like ''{{w|Sharknado}}'' to just be a coincidence.

[[Category:Combined forms]]
[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2015) Decepticons]]
[[Category:Toy-only characters]]

Out of the One, Many

2017-08-07T22:43:51Z

Lush City: /* Transformers references */

{{comicstory|seriesissue=[[Another Light]], Part Five
|prev=Restoration
|next=The Future Buried...
|seriesissue2=''[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (fiction)|Shattered Glass]]''
|title="Out of the One, Many"
|publisher=[[Fun Publications]]
|published in=[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club issue 65|''Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club'' #65]]
|writers=[[Jesse Wittenrich]] & [[Pete Sinclair]]
|pencils=[[Eryck Webb]]
|inks=Eryck Webb
|colors=[[Evan Gauntt]]
|letters=Jesse Wittenrich
|managing editor=Pete Sinclair
|continuity=''[[Primax -408.24 Epsilon|Shattered Glass]]''
|chronology=[[2015]]
}}

'''The rules change.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Nexus Prime]] has succeeded in reuniting the shattered [[Star Saber (Prima)|Star Saber]] at long last. Now, his brothers and sisters of the [[Thirteen]] are drawn from all across space and time to witness as he unites the sword with the [[Terminus Blade]] in order to thicken the walls of the [[multiverse]], inhibiting travel between [[universal stream]]s to prevent further damage being done by interdimensional voyagers. As a consequence, the Thirteen cease to exist as [[multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]], splintered into individual incarnations across the dimensions. So too does the same fate befall [[Primus]] and [[Unicron]]... and amongst the infinite fragments of Unicron, there is one incarnation that embodies the minute spark of good that once dwelled within the planet-eater...

In the [[Primax -408.24 Epsilon|Shatteredverse]], the gravely wounded [[Optimus Prime (SG)|Optimus Prime]] and his men—thrown from [[Sky Lynx (SG)|Sky Lynx]] by his treacherous lieutenant [[Rodimus (SG)|Rodimus]] on the return journey to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]—are approached by this good incarnation of Unicron. The god of extropy offers Optimus enlightenment and a mind freed from chaos, but the Autobot leader initially refuses until Unicron tells him that he has foreseen his greatest victory. Shown a vision of this future triumph, Optimus immediately agrees to Unicron's terms, and he and his men are reformatted by Unicron's power. Optimus becomes Nova Prime, [[Brawn (SG)|Brawn]] becomes X-Brawn; [[Prowl (SG)|Prowl]] becomes Checkpoint, and [[Inferno (SG)|Inferno]] and [[Ratchet (SG)|Ratchet]] become [[Autotrooper (SG Knights of Unicron)|Autotrooper]]s. Unicron sends Nova and his "[[Knights of Unicron (SG)|Knights of Unicron]]" to Cybertron to stop Rodimus before he can inflict any more damage.

On Cybertron, Rodimus is gleefully recounting his betrayal of Optimus when Nova Prime and the Knights materialize in the middle of the throne room. Nova offers Rodimus a chance to surrender, but the young upstart won't hear it; as the Knights keep the Autobots busy, Nova engages Rodimus in battle, and quickly sends him crashing through a window. Rodimus plummets into a chasm far below, and is believed dead... but in reality, his fall is broken by a series of spikes extruding from the chasm walls. Now deep below the planet's surface, Rodimus discovers that his survival, and his guided descent into the world's depths, has been orchestrated by an evil incarnation of Primus, who has chosen him to eradicate all the Transformers scurrying around on his body!

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=SG Autobots
|c1=
* [[Ultra Magnus (SG)|Ultra Magnus]] (2)
* [[Optimus Prime (SG)|Optimus Prime / Nova Prime]] (3)
* [[Brawn (SG)|Brawn / X-Brawn]] (22)
* [[Prowl (SG)|Prowl / Checkpoint]] (23)
* [[Inferno (SG)|Inferno / Autotrooper]] (24)
* [[Ratchet (SG)|Ratchet / Autotrooper]] (25)
* [[Fortress Maximus (SG)|Fortress Maximus]] (26)
* [[Rodimus (SG)|Rodimus]] (27)
* [[Rewind (SG)|Rewind]] (28)
* [[Drift (SG)|Drift]] (29)
* [[Blaster (SG)|Blaster]] (30)

|h2=Others
|c2=
* [[The Fallen]] (1)
* [[Vector Prime]] (4)
* [[Nexus Prime]] (5)
* [[Unicron]] (6)
* [[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]] (7)
* [[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]] (8)
* [[Heatwave (Timelines)|Heatwave]] (9)
* [[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]] (10)
* [[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]] (11)
* [[Solus Prime]] (12)
* The remaining Multiversal Singularity Thirteen (13-21)
* [[Primus]] (31)
}}

==Quotes==

==Notes==
===Errors===
*It could possibly be chalked up to the Thirteen's transdimensional nature, but Vector Prime appears in the present day in his ''Cybertron'' colors despite appearing in his ''[[Vector Prime#Universe (2008)|Universe]]'' toy colors in the tie-in [[Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime]] Facebook page.
*Nexus refers to his "brothers and sister'''s'''" despite all known pre-Shroud iterations of the Thirteen having only one female member, Solus. Though given the fact that Nexus is dealing with multiversal chaos, it might not be impossible that more than one member of the Thirteen who has assembled is female.

===Continuity notes===
[[File:Thirteenprimes.png|thumb|right|350px|]]
* And so, the [[multiversal singularity]] versions of the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron (and any other singularities elsewhere) come to an end. These events were foreshadowed for several months prior to this issue in [[Ask Vector Prime]], as the Guardian of Space and Time felt his memories changing, and ultimately left his position as an [[Axiom Nexus News]] columnist to attend to Nexus Prime's calling.
* The Thirteen of the multiverse appear together for arguably the first and the last time. Although thirteen figures are present when Nexus Prime brings the [[Star Saber (Prima)|Star Saber]] and [[Terminus Blade]] together, not all are immediately recognizable. (Presumably the Thirteen present coincide with [[Ask Vector Prime]]'s list of the multiversal Thirteen, also released by [[Fun Publications]].) From left to right:
** A pair of legs resembling Soundblaster, i.e. [[Logos Prime]].
** Orange and blue robot with a face resembling the Autobot insignia. [[Last Autobot|Autonomous Maximus]], also known as the Last Autobot.
** [[Vector Prime]].
** The [[Maccadam|bartender at Maccadam's]], who might be [[Maccadam]], who might be [[Alchemist Prime]]. Maybe.
** A purple and feminine robot. Coloring is comparable to the hands of [[Solus Prime]] holding the Forge two panels above.
** An orange, winged, vaguely bird-like figure. Possibly [[Onyx Prime]].
** [[Nexus Prime]].
** A yellow and blue robot.
** A gray robot reminiscent of the live-action movie version of [[Prima]].
** A blue-purple lion. A [[Primax]] incarnation of [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]] once briefly took the form of a purple lion, and the [[Uniend]] [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Alpha Trion]] is a member of the Aligned Thirteen, whom Vector Prime once mentioned as having begun to merge with their Multiversal Thirteen counterparts prior to the events of this comic, so it could be a Thirteen/lion version of ol' A3.
** A green and spiky robot with a Generation 1 Megatron-style helmet. Possibly [[Liege Maximo]].
** A yellow and black robot, with a beard and a spiked helmet. Maybe [[Solomus]].
** [[The Fallen]].

===Transformers references===
* "Another Light" continues to put a "Shattered" spin on ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''. The scene of ''Shattered Glass'' Optimus Prime and his troops being healed and reformatted by Unicron is a mirrorverse version of the scene of [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Generation 1 Megatron]] and his troops in, with bad guys being turned into good guys instead of bad guys being healed to do more bad. The story foregoes a coronation scene for Rodimus, but he still plays the part of Starscream addressing his assembled troops from a dais, and gets to paraphrase some of the Seeker's movie dialogue when Nova appears. Rodimus's fall into Cybertron also riffs on his plunge through Unicron's interior in the final act of the film, with wall-spikes breaking his fall.
* Checkpoint is based on ''[[Transformers: Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' [[Checkpoint (Energon)|Checkpoint]], and X-Brawn on ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]'' [[X-Brawn]]. Autotroopers have appeared in several franchises, but have their roots in the ''[[Transformers: Kiss Players (franchise)|Kiss Players]]'' [[Autorooper]]s. Optimus is reformatted into [[Nova Prime]], also the name of an ancient Transformer, just as Megatron was reformatted into Galvatron, a name used later by [[Galvatron (G1)/IDW Generation 1 continuity | Nova Prime's contemporary]].
* One of the many splintering Unicrons features his ''[[Unicron/toys#Energon|Energon]]'' color scheme.

===Real-world references===
* The chapter's title is probably a reference to the Latin phrase "{{w|E pluribus unum}}", a motto of the [[United States of America]] which is traditionally translated as "out of many, one".

===Other trivia===
* So, turns out the 2015 ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' [[Nova Prime]] figure is actually ''Shattered Glass'' Optimus Prime! Or is ''also'' SG Optimus Prime, depending on how you want to look at it.
* Nova Prime's new companions, meanwhile, have designs based on ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]'' figures. Checkpoint uses the [[Offroad#Generations|Offroad]] mold, with what looks to be the head of the [[Trailbreaker (G1)/toys#CombinerWars|Trailbreaker]] retool. His Autotroopers share that mold, and sport what is very clearly a [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]] head. Given Hasbro's M.O. of late, it seems reasonable to assume that this might be a "[[retool|pretooled]]" alternate head associated with the new Trailbreaker parts. X-Brawn sports the [[Rook (Generations)#Generations|Rook]] mold, with a [[mouthplate]]d head bearing some resemblance to [[Brawl (G1)#CombinerWars|Brawl]]. Another pretooled alternate head? Maybe!

[[Category:Shattered Glass issues]]

Out of the One, Many

2017-08-07T22:43:33Z

Lush City: /* Transformers references */

{{comicstory|seriesissue=[[Another Light]], Part Five
|prev=Restoration
|next=The Future Buried...
|seriesissue2=''[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (fiction)|Shattered Glass]]''
|title="Out of the One, Many"
|publisher=[[Fun Publications]]
|published in=[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club issue 65|''Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club'' #65]]
|writers=[[Jesse Wittenrich]] & [[Pete Sinclair]]
|pencils=[[Eryck Webb]]
|inks=Eryck Webb
|colors=[[Evan Gauntt]]
|letters=Jesse Wittenrich
|managing editor=Pete Sinclair
|continuity=''[[Primax -408.24 Epsilon|Shattered Glass]]''
|chronology=[[2015]]
}}

'''The rules change.'''

==Synopsis==
[[Nexus Prime]] has succeeded in reuniting the shattered [[Star Saber (Prima)|Star Saber]] at long last. Now, his brothers and sisters of the [[Thirteen]] are drawn from all across space and time to witness as he unites the sword with the [[Terminus Blade]] in order to thicken the walls of the [[multiverse]], inhibiting travel between [[universal stream]]s to prevent further damage being done by interdimensional voyagers. As a consequence, the Thirteen cease to exist as [[multiversal singularity|multiversal singularities]], splintered into individual incarnations across the dimensions. So too does the same fate befall [[Primus]] and [[Unicron]]... and amongst the infinite fragments of Unicron, there is one incarnation that embodies the minute spark of good that once dwelled within the planet-eater...

In the [[Primax -408.24 Epsilon|Shatteredverse]], the gravely wounded [[Optimus Prime (SG)|Optimus Prime]] and his men—thrown from [[Sky Lynx (SG)|Sky Lynx]] by his treacherous lieutenant [[Rodimus (SG)|Rodimus]] on the return journey to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]—are approached by this good incarnation of Unicron. The god of extropy offers Optimus enlightenment and a mind freed from chaos, but the Autobot leader initially refuses until Unicron tells him that he has foreseen his greatest victory. Shown a vision of this future triumph, Optimus immediately agrees to Unicron's terms, and he and his men are reformatted by Unicron's power. Optimus becomes Nova Prime, [[Brawn (SG)|Brawn]] becomes X-Brawn; [[Prowl (SG)|Prowl]] becomes Checkpoint, and [[Inferno (SG)|Inferno]] and [[Ratchet (SG)|Ratchet]] become [[Autotrooper (SG Knights of Unicron)|Autotrooper]]s. Unicron sends Nova and his "[[Knights of Unicron (SG)|Knights of Unicron]]" to Cybertron to stop Rodimus before he can inflict any more damage.

On Cybertron, Rodimus is gleefully recounting his betrayal of Optimus when Nova Prime and the Knights materialize in the middle of the throne room. Nova offers Rodimus a chance to surrender, but the young upstart won't hear it; as the Knights keep the Autobots busy, Nova engages Rodimus in battle, and quickly sends him crashing through a window. Rodimus plummets into a chasm far below, and is believed dead... but in reality, his fall is broken by a series of spikes extruding from the chasm walls. Now deep below the planet's surface, Rodimus discovers that his survival, and his guided descent into the world's depths, has been orchestrated by an evil incarnation of Primus, who has chosen him to eradicate all the Transformers scurrying around on his body!

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=SG Autobots
|c1=
* [[Ultra Magnus (SG)|Ultra Magnus]] (2)
* [[Optimus Prime (SG)|Optimus Prime / Nova Prime]] (3)
* [[Brawn (SG)|Brawn / X-Brawn]] (22)
* [[Prowl (SG)|Prowl / Checkpoint]] (23)
* [[Inferno (SG)|Inferno / Autotrooper]] (24)
* [[Ratchet (SG)|Ratchet / Autotrooper]] (25)
* [[Fortress Maximus (SG)|Fortress Maximus]] (26)
* [[Rodimus (SG)|Rodimus]] (27)
* [[Rewind (SG)|Rewind]] (28)
* [[Drift (SG)|Drift]] (29)
* [[Blaster (SG)|Blaster]] (30)

|h2=Others
|c2=
* [[The Fallen]] (1)
* [[Vector Prime]] (4)
* [[Nexus Prime]] (5)
* [[Unicron]] (6)
* [[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]] (7)
* [[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]] (8)
* [[Heatwave (Timelines)|Heatwave]] (9)
* [[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]] (10)
* [[Topspin (Classics)|Topspin]] (11)
* [[Solus Prime]] (12)
* The remaining Multiversal Singularity Thirteen (13-21)
* [[Primus]] (31)
}}

==Quotes==

==Notes==
===Errors===
*It could possibly be chalked up to the Thirteen's transdimensional nature, but Vector Prime appears in the present day in his ''Cybertron'' colors despite appearing in his ''[[Vector Prime#Universe (2008)|Universe]]'' toy colors in the tie-in [[Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime]] Facebook page.
*Nexus refers to his "brothers and sister'''s'''" despite all known pre-Shroud iterations of the Thirteen having only one female member, Solus. Though given the fact that Nexus is dealing with multiversal chaos, it might not be impossible that more than one member of the Thirteen who has assembled is female.

===Continuity notes===
[[File:Thirteenprimes.png|thumb|right|350px|]]
* And so, the [[multiversal singularity]] versions of the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron (and any other singularities elsewhere) come to an end. These events were foreshadowed for several months prior to this issue in [[Ask Vector Prime]], as the Guardian of Space and Time felt his memories changing, and ultimately left his position as an [[Axiom Nexus News]] columnist to attend to Nexus Prime's calling.
* The Thirteen of the multiverse appear together for arguably the first and the last time. Although thirteen figures are present when Nexus Prime brings the [[Star Saber (Prima)|Star Saber]] and [[Terminus Blade]] together, not all are immediately recognizable. (Presumably the Thirteen present coincide with [[Ask Vector Prime]]'s list of the multiversal Thirteen, also released by [[Fun Publications]].) From left to right:
** A pair of legs resembling Soundblaster, i.e. [[Logos Prime]].
** Orange and blue robot with a face resembling the Autobot insignia. [[Last Autobot|Autonomous Maximus]], also known as the Last Autobot.
** [[Vector Prime]].
** The [[Maccadam|bartender at Maccadam's]], who might be [[Maccadam]], who might be [[Alchemist Prime]]. Maybe.
** A purple and feminine robot. Coloring is comparable to the hands of [[Solus Prime]] holding the Forge two panels above.
** An orange, winged, vaguely bird-like figure. Possibly [[Onyx Prime]].
** [[Nexus Prime]].
** A yellow and blue robot.
** A gray robot reminiscent of the live-action movie version of [[Prima]].
** A blue-purple lion. A [[Primax]] incarnation of [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]] once briefly took the form of a purple lion, and the [[Uniend]] [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Alpha Trion]] is a member of the Aligned Thirteen, whom Vector Prime once mentioned as having begun to merge with their Multiversal Thirteen counterparts prior to the events of this comic, so it could be a Thirteen/lion version of ol' A3.
** A green and spiky robot with a Generation 1 Megatron-style helmet. Possibly [[Liege Maximo]].
** A yellow and black robot, with a beard and a spiked helmet. Maybe [[Solomus]].
** [[The Fallen]].

===Transformers references===
* "Another Light" continues to put a "Shattered" spin on ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''. The scene of ''Shattered Glass'' Optimus Prime and his troops being healed and reformatted by Unicron is a mirrorverse version of the scene of [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Generation 1 Megatron]] and his troops in, with bad guys being turned into good guys instead of bad guys being healed to do more bad. The story foregoes a coronation scene for Rodimus, but he still plays the part of Starscream addressing his assembled troops from a dais, and gets to paraphrase some of the Seeker's movie dialogue when Nova appears. Rodimus's fall into Cybertron also riffs on his plunge through Unicron's interior in the final act of the film, with wall-spikes breaking his fall.
* Checkpoint is based on ''[[Transformers: Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' [[Checkpoint (Energon)|Checkpoint]], and X-Brawn on ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]]'' [[X-Brawn]]. Autotroopers have appeared in several franchises, but have their roots in the ''[[Transformers: Kiss Players (franchise)|Kiss Players]]'' [[Autorooper]]s. *Optimus is reformatted into [[Nova Prime]], also the name of an ancient Transformer, just as Megatron was reformatted into Galvatron, a name used later by [[Galvatron (G1)/IDW Generation 1 continuity | Nova Prime's contemporary]].
* One of the many splintering Unicrons features his ''[[Unicron/toys#Energon|Energon]]'' color scheme.

===Real-world references===
* The chapter's title is probably a reference to the Latin phrase "{{w|E pluribus unum}}", a motto of the [[United States of America]] which is traditionally translated as "out of many, one".

===Other trivia===
* So, turns out the 2015 ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' [[Nova Prime]] figure is actually ''Shattered Glass'' Optimus Prime! Or is ''also'' SG Optimus Prime, depending on how you want to look at it.
* Nova Prime's new companions, meanwhile, have designs based on ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]'' figures. Checkpoint uses the [[Offroad#Generations|Offroad]] mold, with what looks to be the head of the [[Trailbreaker (G1)/toys#CombinerWars|Trailbreaker]] retool. His Autotroopers share that mold, and sport what is very clearly a [[Hoist (G1)|Hoist]] head. Given Hasbro's M.O. of late, it seems reasonable to assume that this might be a "[[retool|pretooled]]" alternate head associated with the new Trailbreaker parts. X-Brawn sports the [[Rook (Generations)#Generations|Rook]] mold, with a [[mouthplate]]d head bearing some resemblance to [[Brawl (G1)#CombinerWars|Brawl]]. Another pretooled alternate head? Maybe!

[[Category:Shattered Glass issues]]

Magna

2017-08-07T22:38:55Z

Lush City: Created page with "On the planet Caminus, '''Magna''' is a rank bestowed upon the leader of the Torchbearers. ==Fiction== ===IDW Generation 1 continuity=== Praesidia Magna served as..."

On the planet [[Caminus]], '''Magna''' is a rank bestowed upon the leader of the [[Torchbearer]]s.

==Fiction==
===IDW Generation 1 continuity===
[[Praesidia Magna]] served as the leader of the Torchbearers until her untimely demise in [[Parvus Oppidum]] at the hands of the beasts of [[Onyx Prime]]. She was't really cut out for the job. She was succeeded by her second-in-command who became [[Pyra Magna]] {{storylink|Ghost Stories}}

[[Category:IDW Generation 1]]
[[Category:Ranks]]

George Krstic

2016-09-27T18:21:45Z

Lush City:

[[Image:Nice.jpg|right|thumb|250px|He digs giant robots.]]

'''George Krstic''' is a writer and producer of animated series. Probably most famous for co-creating Megas XLR and story editing MTV's Downtown, he will forever live in infamy as one of the only people left willing to take credit for for [[Transformers: Combiner Wars (cartoon) |Transformers: Combiner Wars]]<ref name="imdb">[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5831646/fullcredits IMDB credits for ''Combiner Wars''], updated listing with only George Krstic writing credits, changed late September, 2016.</ref><ref name="collider">[http://collider.com/transformers-combiner-wars-trailer/ Collider.com article] with writing credits for George Krstic and F.J. DeSanto, from July, 2016.</ref><ref name="tfw2005">[http://news.tfw2005.com/2016/01/29/final-script-transformers-combiner-wars-machinima-series-completed-308637 Tweet from Eric S. Calderon] celebrating the finished scripts, from January, 2016; tweet since deleted, archived by TFW2005.</ref>

==Episode scripts==
===''Transformers: Combiner Wars''===
*[[The Council]]
*[[ The Fall ]]
*[[Prelude to Transformers: Combiner Wars - Windblade ]]
*[[Prelude to Transformers: Combiner Wars - Starscream ]]
*[[ Prelude to Transformers: Combiner Wars - Victorion ]]
*[[ Prelude to Transformers: Combiner Wars - Optimus Prime ]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{creatorstub}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Krstic, George}}
[[Category:Machinima]]
[[Category:Writers]]

File:Nice.jpg

2016-09-27T18:21:12Z

Lush City: George Krstic in full regalia

George Krstic in full regalia

George Krstic

2016-09-27T18:18:55Z

Lush City:

'''George Krstic''' is a writer and producer of animated series. Probably most famous for co-creating Megas XLR and story editing MTV's Downtown, he will forever live in infamy as one of the only people left willing to take credit for for [[Transformers: Combiner Wars (cartoon) |Transformers: Combiner Wars]]<ref name="imdb">[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5831646/fullcredits IMDB credits for ''Combiner Wars''], updated listing with only George Krstic writing credits, changed late September, 2016.</ref><ref name="collider">[http://collider.com/transformers-combiner-wars-trailer/ Collider.com article] with writing credits for George Krstic and F.J. DeSanto, from July, 2016.</ref><ref name="tfw2005">[http://news.tfw2005.com/2016/01/29/final-script-transformers-combiner-wars-machinima-series-completed-308637 Tweet from Eric S. Calderon] celebrating the finished scripts, from January, 2016; tweet since deleted, archived by TFW2005.</ref>

==Episode scripts==
===''Transformers: Combiner Wars''===
*[[The Council]]
*[[ The Fall ]]
*[[Prelude to Transformers: Combiner Wars - Windblade ]]
*[[Prelude to Transformers: Combiner Wars - Starscream ]]
*[[ Prelude to Transformers: Combiner Wars - Victorion ]]
*[[ Prelude to Transformers: Combiner Wars - Optimus Prime ]]

==References==
{{reflist}}

{{creatorstub}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Krstic, George}}
[[Category:Machinima]]
[[Category:Writers]]

George Krstic

2016-09-27T18:17:43Z

Lush City:

George Krstic

2016-09-27T18:17:17Z

Lush City: Created page with "'''George Krstic''' is a writer and producer of animated series. Probably most famous for co-creating Megas XLR and story editing MTV's Downtown, he will forever live in infam..."

Micro-Aggressions

2016-07-21T18:48:23Z

Lush City: /* Human Confederation trivia */

{{Comicstory|
|seriesissue=[[Transformers Timelines (fiction)|''Transformers Timelines'']]<br>text story
|prev=High Noon
|next=The Truth We Make
|seriesissue2=''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]''
|prev2=Burning Bridges
|next2=Intersectionality
|image=MicroAggressions title image.jpg
|caption=Me Grimlock now Maximal!
|title="Micro-Aggressions"
|publisher=[[Transformers Collectors' Club]] (online exclusive)
|date=[[April 2]], [[2016]]
|by=[[Jim Sorenson]]
|illustrations by=[[Christopher Colgin]]
|cover illustration by=
|pagecount=15pp
|chronology=early 25th century
|continuity=''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]''
}}

'''Old heroes of the Great War now find each other on opposing sides in the Grand Uprising.'''

==Synopsis==
Long before the [[Grand Uprising|Uprising]], [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] and [[Hot Rod]] 'downsized' at war's end. But Grimlock illegally had his spark transplanted into a [[Maximal]] [[protoform]] and tried to kill the [[Builder Assembly]]. While Hot Rod has tried to reform the corrupt system from the inside, convincing others to become [[Micromaster]]s and forming a cross-faction alliance, Grimlock wants to rip down the whole stinking edifice. Hot Rod sees Grimlock and the [[Resistance]] as wrecking any chance while Grimlock sees the Autobot as a traitor to his badge.

[[Bladez]], [[Pincher (GoBots)|Pincher]], and their mercenary [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] crew formed a [[Monsterous|monstrous combiner]] and raided the [[Forever Vaults]], killing all guards but [[Cop-Tur (G1)|Cop-Tur]], to retrieve the "[[G-Virus]]". After putting the word out, Grimlock arrives to buy it. In payment, they get all the information the resistance has on the [[Confederation of Terran Worlds|Human Confederation]]...

At "[[Micropolis]]", a de facto city constructed from Micromaster bases, Hot Rod has been ''fully fueled''—a rare occurrence on the fuel-starved Cybertron—and called in for a mission. His command team informs him of the threat and that the Assembly would like the G-Virus back in one piece (Hot Rod is not impressed with that requirement). Knowing how Grimlock thinks, Hot Rod realizes the rebel will deploy the virus at the next Game—where Councillor [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]] will be present, showing the world that everything is under control, and where Resistance prisoners are being forced to fight to the death!

Grimlock finds his small crew having a fun game of "everyone punch everyone" and snaps them out of it, before they make a sneak attack on the Games in [[Tesarus (polity)|Tesarus Arena]]. The [[Builder of Cybertron|Builders]] have an ambush set up though and Grimlock's team, despite giving as good as they get, is rapidly whittled down while Hot Rod engages Grimlock directly! The two fight viciously, each accusing the other of brutal moral failings, but the advantage is with the rebels: the Builders are too sluggish to evacuate the area and can't even tell there's a real fight on. When [[Snapper]], the last rebel standing, steps in, nothing can stop the G-Virus being used...

...until Hot Rod tells Snapper what it ''is'': all that remains of the mad tyrant [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], the absolute worst Transformer to ever live, after his vivisection. The virus will turn everyone it touches into Galvatron replicas! Grimlock admits to it, saying this will terrify the Assembly and undermine their ability to function by turning twenty thousand necessary Builders into psychopaths. But while the Builders are too fuel-starved to move, the Maximals and Predacons in the arena are not and will be transformed as well!

Snapper destroys the virus, causing Grimlock to swear the Resistance will have him killed, and surrenders to Hot Rod. The Autobot promises the Predacon will be well treated and kept out of the Games.

And in the Micropolis infirmary, Cop-Tur succumbs to that brief exposure he had to the virus on its theft. [[Galvatron (BWII)|Galvatron]] gets out of bed, kills the nurse, and drives out to Primus knows where...

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|h1=[[Maximal]]s
|c1=
*[[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] (3)
*[[Grizzly-1|Barbearian]] (11)
*[[Mach Kick]] (12)

|h2=[[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]
|c2=
*[[Bladez]] (1)
*[[Pincher (GoBots)|Pincher]] (2)
*[[Snapper]] (10)
*The [[Manterror|Man Terror]] (13)

|h3=[[Builder of Cybertron|Builder]]s
|c3=
*[[Hot Rod]] (4)
*[[Greasepit (G1)|Greasepit]] (5)
*[[Countdown (G1)|Countdown]] (6)
*[[Drillbuster]] (7)
*[[Blackout (G1)|Blackout]] (8)
*[[Spaceshot]] (9)
*[[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]] (14)
*[[Ransack (G2)|Blitz]] (15)
*[[Power Punch (G1)|Power Punch]] (15)
*[[Direct-Hit (G1)|Direct-Hit]] (16)
*[[Fearswoop (BW)|Fearswoop]] (17)
*[[Cop-Tur (G1)|Cop-Tur]] (18)
*[[Fixit (G1)|Fixit]] (19)
*[[First Aid (G1)|First Aid]] (20)

|h4=Others
|c4=
*[[Galvatron (BWII)|Galvatron]] (21)

}}

==Quotes==
"You've always gone too far, Grimlock!" <br>
"And you never go too far enough, 'Chosen One'!"<br>
—'''Hot Rod''' vs '''Grimlock'''

==Notes==
*Characters mentioned but who do not appear include: the [[Master Renegade|Master]], [[Hornet]], [[Scorp]], [[Lio Convoy]], [[Primus]], [[Crumplezone (BW)|Crumplezone]], [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]], [[Road Police]], a "[[Monsterous|monstrous]]" Predacon combiner, [[Cop-Tur (GoBots)|Cop-Tur]], [[Black Out]], [[Search (BW)|Search]], [[K-9]], the [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbot]]s, the [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobot]]s, the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicon]]s, [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]/[[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], and [[Unicron]].
*As in previous stories, several characters who appear have their bodies based on existing toys: Grimlock is based on [[Springer (G1)#Voyager|''Generations Thrilling 30'' Springer]] (much like [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars: Uprising|Dynobot]], who ''Beast Wars'' Grimlock's toy was a redeco of); Hot Rod is, of course, in his [[Hot Rod/toys#Return of Convoy|Micromaster form]]; and Galvatron is based on [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Beast Hunters|''Beast Hunters'' Optimus Prime]].

===Errors===
*Grimlock refers to the Human "Confederation" while "Head Games" referred to the Human "Confederacy". It is uncertain which is the more correct parsing.
*On page 9, Snapper is referred to as "Spittor".

===Continuity notes===
*Greasepit and Hot Rod remember the events of "[[Head Games]]", wherein their friends and comrades got massacred. This is attributed to the poor suckers being on quarter-ration fuel as security guards weren't considered important enough. Greasepit specifically mentions the death of [[Crumplezone (BW)|Crumplezone]].
*Exactly ''how'' Galvatron almost doomed the race is established in [[cybertronix]] text sneakily placed in the story, detailed below in "Human Confederation trivia".
*Eject is mentioned as having visited the Forever Vaults to check out Cop-Tur's research. Evidently, Eject got the name and color scheme for [[Galva Convoy]] from Galvatron.

===Transformers references===
*Grimlock was made into a ''Beast Wars'' character by the toyline, and ''[[Transformers, Beast Wars: The Gathering|The Gathering]]'' and ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Sourcebook|Beast Wars Sourcebook]]'' portrayed his IDW ''Beast Wars'' incarnation as indeed transferring his spark into a protoform.
*A Micromaster [[Hot Rod/toys#Return of Convoy|Hot Rod toy]] came with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Return of Convoy|the Star Convoy toy]], and thus his base is called the [[Star Convoy (BW)|Star Convoy]].
*Another facility in Micropolis is the [[Dai Atlas Exchange]]. It is unspecified if the Exchange was named for [[Dai Atlas (Zone)|an individual Cybertronian]] or, as with the Star Convoy, it is just a building name in this continuity.
*Black Out is a ''Beast Wars: Uprising'' version of [[Blackout (Armada)|''Armada'' Blackout]], based on Blackout's [[Blackout (Armada)#Powerlinx|"Powerlinx" deco]]. Meanwhile, Black Out's partner Search shares the name of ''Armada'' Blackout's Japanese counterpart.
*Hot Rod refers to convincing the Protectobots, Aerialbots, and Constructicons to downsize, all of whom had Micromaster combiner sets in the [[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|2003 ''Universe'' toyline]]. Fittingly, the Facebook edition of [[Ask Vector Prime]] had previously established those toys as representative of Micromaster characters in one [[Primax]]-influenced [[Aurex]] [[Aurex 1104.30-DB Zeta|universe]].
*The Builder audience member who Snapper takes aim at is not named but appears to be a ''Beast Wars: Uprising'' version of [[Fearswoop (ROTF)|''Revenge of the Fallen'' Fearswoop]], having only 1 optic, [[empurata]]-style. This is further solidified by [[Fearswoop (G1)|Generation 1 Fearswoop]] having the name "Black Omen" in this continuity, as the author has taken care to avoid name reuses among simultaneously alive characters.
*Snapper refers to Galvatron as "[[Unicron's Spawn|Spawn of Unicron]]".
*Aside from the obvious name reuse, the ''Beast Wars Sourcebook'' established that the IDW version of ''Beast Wars II'' Galvatron named himself after Generation 1 Galvatron. This time around, Galvatron is literally born out of Galvatron!

===GoBots references===
*It's already been established that a number of [[GoBot]]s fled [[Gargent 984.08 Alpha]] for refuge in [[Primax 209.0 Gamma]], integrating themselves in with the local [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]]s, in a [[Ask Vector Prime/Facebook src#May 14, 2015|14/5/2015 entry]] of Ask Vector Prime. Both Bladez and Pincher were Monster GoBots in the ''Challenge of the GoBots'' cartoon series.
*Cop-Tur survived as the GoBots weren't sure if that was ''their'' [[Cop-Tur (GoBots)|Cop-Tur]].
*Bladez swears by the [[Master Renegade]], his creator.
*There isn't a Monster GoBot combiner but there ''is'' a monster GoBot combiner named [[Monsterous]], which the "[[Ask Vector Prime#Renegade Rhetoric|Renegade Rhetoric]]" incarnation of Ask Vector Prime portrayed as comprising [[Predacon (Prime)|''Prime'' Predacons]]! This version of Monsterous, however, appears to be composed of [[Gargent]]-native cyborgs.

===Real world references===
*The title references {{w|microaggression theory}}: "brief, everyday exchanges that send denigrating messages to certain individuals because of their group membership."
*The G-Virus's name is coincidentally similar to that of the [http://residentevil.wikia.com/wiki/T-Virus ''Resident Evil'' MacGuffin].

===Human Confederation trivia===
Each scene break contains [[cybertronix]] and when translated, it turns out to be the data Grimlock handed to the PredaGoBots! Roughly translated, it tells us:
*Humans (or at least Transformers talking about them) stopped using BC/BCE and AD/CE, instead using BA (Before Ark, pre-1984) and SCA (Stellar Cycle of the Ark, 1984 and onwards).
*Humans developed the first AI in 1 SCA (referring to [[TORQ III]], from the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 cartoon episode]] "[[Day of the Machines]]"), landed on Mars in 8 SCA, constructed the first Warp Gate with the Autobots in 13 SCA (referring to the creation of the ''[[Trigger]]'' from the ''[[Transformers: The Battle of the Star Gate|Battle of the Star Gate]]'' manga), and AI became ubiquitous by 30 SCA with neural interfaces by 33 SCA—or in 1985, 1992, 1997, 2014, and 2017 to you and me!
*[[Earth Defense Command]] (founded 19 SCA/2003) was formed out of [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]] [[Star Brigade]]. The 2003 date referring to the EDC founding date given in [[Kiss Players]].
*In 33 SCA, the EDC declared all of human space off-limits to Transformers due to an attack on [[New Earth]] and in 39 SCA, the "[[Human Singularity]]" happened: Earth tech was surpassing Cybertronian. After the Decepticons attacked human colony [[Xin Shanghai]] in 39 SCA using a captured Autobot shuttle, the humans blew up a ''real'' Autobot shuttle, the ''[[Star Arrow]]'', which was approaching [[Tamil Duniya]] for aid in 42 SCA.
*Humanity formed the [[Confederation of Terran Worlds|Human Confederacy]] in 45 SCA and the EDC became the [[Confederated Terran Colonial Fleet]]. The [[Scouring of Nebulos]] two years later caused the nascent Confederacy to impose an armistice on the Transformers and forcibly limit them to Cybertron and nine existing colony worlds. Galvatron responded by launching a massive invasion fleet in 49 SCA... and the humans vaped it, told the Transformers they could only have ''four'' colonies now, and ''sterilized'' the disbarred five worlds after a ten day "piss off" grace period.
*Humans somehow conquered ''death'' in 70 SCA; split into the three branches of biologicals, circuitry-enhanced, and psychals by 80-90 SCA (unaugmented humans were second-class citizens); and in 130 SCA, started bringing back every dead human from history with the [[Eutychus Project]].

==External links==
* [http://transformersclub.com/prose/Beast-Wars-Uprising-Micro-Aggressions-V1.01.pdf "Micro-Aggressions"] at The Official Transformers Collectors' Club

[[Category:Beast Wars: Uprising media]]
[[Category:Text stories]]
[[Category:Timelines media]]

Earth: R.I.P.

2016-02-17T18:57:54Z

Lush City: /* Transformers references */

{{Comicstory|series=tfvsjoe
|issueno=10
|prev=Stick To Your Guns
|next=Black Cybertron
|image=TFvsJoe10_regcvr.jpg
|title="Earth: R.I.P."
|publisher=[[IDW Publishing]]
|published in=[[Transformers vs. G.I. Joe issue 10|''Transformers vs. G.I. Joe'' #10]]
|date=[[December 23]], [[2015]]
|coverdate=December 2015
|written by=[[Tom Scioli]] and [[John Barber]]
|art by=Tom Scioli
|colors by=Tom Scioli
|letters by=Tom Scioli
|production by=[[Chris Mowry]]
|editor=[[Carlos Guzman]]
|continuity=[[Transformers vs. G.I. Joe]]
}}

'''With Earth destroyed, G.I. Joe and the Autobots go underground on Cybertron to prepare for the fight back against DeceptiCobra.'''

==Synopsis==
The collision with [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] has resulted in the destruction of [[Earth]]. Now Cybertron is all that remains, with [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]], [[Cobra]], and the [[Oktober Guard]] all that survives of humanity, stranded on the metal world. The Oktober Guard tries to claim Cybertron as "New Transylvania"; [[Blowtorch]] is impressed by the idea, but all it serves to accomplish is to make the Guard targets for the allied "DeceptiCobra" forces, while the Joes take the opportunity to escape.

A great feast is held for the men and women of Cobra in [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s dining hall, where they are all served by their captive G.I. Joe chef, [[Roadblock (G.I. Joe)|Roadblock]]. Megatron, too, joins the banquet, where he partakes of a delicacy specially prepared by his own confectioners: the still-living Joe [[Skidmark (G.I. Joe)|Skidmark]], who Megatron then eats alive in gruesome commemoration of the day the Earth died. The [[Dreadnok]]s find their stomachs turned by the grisly display and quickly lose their appetites, save for [[Dreadnok|Torch]], who happily digs in to his meal... only to die a moment later, projectile-vomiting a fountain of blood! Realizing that Roadblock has poisoned their meal, the forces of Cobra charge towards the kitchen, where the burly G.I. Joe is able to hold them off long enough for [[Tunnel Rat]]—still scurrying around in the vents—to bring him an automatic rifle, with which he mows down his attackers. Tunnel Rat and Roadblock escape into [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]]'s vents and meet up with [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]]—not the traitor he appeared to be, Tunnel Rat has discovered, but actually an [[Autobot]] double agent. Roadblock is still suspicious, and only becomes moreso when it turns out T-Rat and Perceptor's exfil plan involves the two Joes sealing themselves in body bags so Perceptor can carry them outside for "disposal", but the plan seems to be working until guards [[Scavenger (G1)|Scavenger]] and [[Hook (G1)|Hook]] realize that Perceptor is not heading to his lab like he told them he was. His cover blown, Perceptor makes a break for it, and successfully manages to escape [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]]. Though Earth is no longer visible in the sky, Perceptor tries to reassure the two Joes that is it unscientific to believe something does not exist just because you cannot see it; Roadblock and Tunnel Rat are less optimistic, taking the space debris raining down across Cybertron as proof that their home planet is gone for good.

Perceptor, Roadblock, and Tunnel Rat are met by a party of other Joes, who lead them to the new [[T.H.E.P.I.T.|Pit]] beneath Cybertron's surface where the rest of the Joe team has holed up. Perceptor has also brought the deceased [[Wild Bill]]'s body with him, confusing the Joes, who believe he is still alive, unaware that shapeshifting Cobra spy [[Zartan]] has taken his place. His cover blown, Zartan uses Wild Bill's [[Dragonfly]] helicopter to mow down Joe after Joe, but a well-placed sniper shot from [[Stalker (G.I. Joe)|Stalker]] permanently ends the threat of the Dreadnok leader. As Generals [[General Flagg|Flagg]] and [[Hawk (G.I. Joe)|Hawk]] restore order, Roadblock, Tunnel Rat, and Perceptor reveal that, between the three of them, they have obtained the deactivation code for Trypticon's forcefield.

Atop one of Cybertron's horn-like mega-mountains, the last survivors of Earth do battle: [[Snake-Eyes|Snake Eyes]] managed to make it onto Cybertron before his homeworld was destroyed, but so did [[Koh-Buru-Lah (creature)|Koh-Buru-Lah]], carrying [[Cobra Commander]] and his followers within organic sacs on its hideous body. Now, even as one of Koh-Buru-Lah's tentacles tugs at Snake Eyes's ankle, the ninja commando duels with [[Storm Shadow|Stormshadow]], who Cobra Commander believes has come to join them. While Snake Eyes is occupied fending off the eldritch horror, however, Stormshadow reveals the true reason for his presence: he has come to rescue his pupil [[Billy (G.I. Joe)|Billy]]—his body ravaged, but still alive—from within the god of Cobra.

Far below the surface of Cybertron, [[Hot Rod|Rodimus]] and [[Duke (G.I. Joe)|Duke]]'s team are guided through the mind of [[Primus]] by the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], steward of the sleeping god's dreams. The Keeper regales them with the tale of Primus's creation: he is the offspring of [[Daiakuron]], a living world sculpted by a race of ancient gestalt beings known as the [[Quintesson|Makers]], who had in turn bestowed upon their creation the ability to create worlds of its own. The further and further they descend, the more the Transformers and Joes see, and the larger the question looms... what if not just Cybertronians, but also humankind, were creations of Daiakuron? The line between Earthling and Transformer is growing ever blurrier... much like the line between life and death, as, at the bottom of the staircase the heroes descend, they find [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], the Autobot God of Death, ferrying the corpse of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] across the river to the underworld!

==Featured characters==
Characters in ''italic text'' appear only in flashbacks.<br>
{{Featuredcharacters
|c1=
*[[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] (26)
*[[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]] (70)
*[[Hot Rod|Rodimus]] (72)
*[[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] (78)
*[[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (80)
*[[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] (81)
*[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (82)

|c2=
*[[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] (12)
*[[Bonecrusher (G1)|Bonecrusher]] (27)
*[[Scavenger (G1)|Scavenger]] (28)
*[[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]] (29)

|h3=[[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]]|c3=
{{{!}}border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background:transparent"
{{!}}-
{{!}}style="background:transparent; border-right: 0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Blowtorch]] (7)
*[[Steeler]] (8)
*[[Rock 'n Roll]] (9)
*[[Sandstorm (G.I. Joe)|Sandstorm]] (10)
*[[Dusty]] (11)
*[[Roadblock (G.I. Joe)|Roadblock]] (15)
*[[Skidmark (G.I. Joe)|Skidmark]] (23)
*[[Tunnel Rat]] (25)
*[[Airtight]] (30)
*[[Lightfoot (G.I. Joe)|Lightfoot]] (31)
*[[Deep Six]] (32)
*[[Ozone]] (33)
*[[Wetsuit]] (34)
*[[Repeater (G.I. Joe)|Repeater]] (35)
*[[Beachhead]] (36)
{{!}}style="background:transparent; border-right: 0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Leatherneck]] (37)
*[[Snow Job]] (38)
*[[Stretcher]] (39)
*[[Hit and Run]] (40)
*[[General Flagg]] (41)
*[[Freefall (G.I. Joe)|Freefall]] (42)
*[[Hawk (G.I. Joe)|Hawk]] (43)
*[[Airwave (G.I. Joe)|Airwave]] (44)
*[[Scoop (G.I. Joe)|Scoop]] (45)
*[[Cold Front]] (46)
*[[Ambush (G.I. Joe)|Ambush]] (47)
*[[Quick Kick]] (48)
*[[Wild Bill]] (49)
*[[Lady Jaye]] (50)
*[[Recoil (G.I. Joe)|Recoil]] (52)
{{!}}style="background:transparent; border-right: 0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Cross Country]] (53)
*[[Red Spot]] (54)
*[[Gung-Ho]] (55)
*[[Torpedo]] (56)
*[[Wreckage (G.I. Joe)|Wreckage]] (57)
*[[Grunt]] (58)
*[[Stalker (G.I. Joe)|Stalker]] (59)
*[[Psych Out]] (60)
*[[Lifeline]] (61)
*[[Duke (G.I. Joe)|Duke]] (72)
*[[Bazooka (G.I. Joe)|Bazooka]] (74)
*[[Cover Girl]] (75)
*[[Tripwire (G.I. Joe)|Tripwire]] (78)
{{!}}}
|h4=[[Cobra]]|c4=
*[[Destro]] (13)
*[[Baroness|Serpentress]] (14)
*[[Raptor (G.I. Joe)|Raptor]] (16)
*[[Road Pig (Dreadnok)|Road Pig]] (17)
*[[Dreadnok|Ripper]] (18)
*[[Dreadnok|Torch]] (19)
*[[Zandar]] (20)
*[[Zanzibar]] (21)
*[[Copperhead]] (22)
*[[Battle Android Trooper|B.A.T.]] (24)
*[[Zartan]] (51)
*[[Nemesis Enforcer]] (63)
*[[Storm Shadow|Stormshadow]] (65)
*[[Major Bludd]] (66)
*[[Cobra Commander]] (67)

|h5=Others|c5=
*[[S.H.R.I.E.K.]] (1)
*[[Horrorshow]] (2)
*[[Münchnik]] (3)
*[[Colonel Breakoff]] (4)
*[[Dragun]] (5)
*[[Daina|Denia]] (6)
*[[Koh-Buru-Lah (creature)|Koh-Buru-Lah]] (62)
*[[Snake-Eyes]] (64)
*[[Billy (G.I. Joe)|Billy]] (68)
*[[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]] (69)
*[[Primus]] (71)
*''[[Quintesson|The Makers]]'' (75)
*''[[Daiakuron]]'' (76)
*''[[Unicron]]'' (79)
}}

==Quotes==
"I fink I've gone and lost me bloomin' happytite."
:—'''Ripper''', after watching Skidmark meet his end

"I told you having a G.I. Joe chef was a bad idea."<br>
"Great cuisine is worth the risk."
:—'''Serpentress''' and '''Destro'''

"I can't let myself believe it—not for one second. Until I see it with my own eyes, Earth is just how I remember it. Can't do the job any other way."<br>
"Denial is half the battle."
:—'''Roadblock''' and '''Tunnel Rat'''

"In all this high-tech survival gear, it's getting harder to tell the orgs from the borgs. We're all Cybertronians now."
:—'''Ozone'''

"The makers sure would be disappointed in us. Instead of creating new life, we've created new ways of killing each other." <br>
"My makers didn't like how I turned out either, Rodimus."
:—'''Rodimus''' and '''Bazooka'''

==Notes==
===Continuity notes===
*Doctor Venom was shown buliding B.A.T.s for G.I. Joe back in [[Funeral for a Friend|issue #3]], but Cobra has one in this issue. What this means for the good doctor, last seen escaping Optimus Prime's custody in [[Headmasters (issue)|issue #7]], remains to be seen.
*Hook and Scavenger grouse about the loss of the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]]' [[Devastator (G1)|combined form]] following the death of [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]], which took place in [[Targetmasters (issue)|issue #2]].
*Duke, Snake Eyes, and Optimus encountered the [[Quintesson]]s in [[Everybody Hates Metroplex|issue #5]], in which they claimed to be not just the creators of the Transformers, as in past media, but of ''all'' life. Here, the visuals tell us that the Quintessons are actually the "gestalt" forms of the Moai-like "Makers"—the reason for their multiple faces and tentacles, formed from the Makers' own faces and limbs—and that they created Daiakuron, who then created other planets, making their statement essentially true.
*Ultra Magnus was mentioned before in issue #5, but nothing about that issue implied he was anything more than the great Autobot warrior he is typically depicted as. The prose story "[[Black Cybertron]]" (see "Other trivia," below) explains his sinister appearance here by painting him as the Autobot God of Death.

===Transformers references===
*One of the Decepticon caterers who serves Megatron is based on [[Drag Strip (G1)|Drag Strip]]'s toy, colored in greys and blues.
*The Keeper of Primus, a character from the original Marvel series, appears to guide Duke and Rodimus's team through the depths of Cybertron.
*"Daiakuron" is, of course, named in reference to ''[[Diaclone]]'', the Japanese toyline from which the toys that would become the first Transformers were taken; the spelling is a direct phonetic rendering of the Japanese pronunciation of the world (ダイアクロン da-i-a-ku-ro-n).
*The twin horn-mountains Cybertron has grown over the course of this series have always been evocative of Unicron. This issues explains that both Cybertron and Unicron were created by the horned Daiakuron, and they both inherited the feature from their "father."
*The "ferry" Ultra Magnus uses to transport Prime's body is styled after his own trailer and his rown with a bone white version of the [[Magnus Hammer]] This doesn't affect the appearance of Magnus himself, who is still drawn with his traditional appearance as if the trailer has formed his body, save for the fact he is missing his shoulder-launchers, visible on the ferry. While the ferry is colored with Magnus's usual red, blue, white, the sinister form of Magnus himself is black, magenta, and white.

===G.I. Joe references===
*Torch prefers a "Yank fizzy drink" at the feast rather than wine; the purple bottle marks it as grape soda, the favorite drink of the Dreadnoks in the original Marvel ''G.I. Joe'' comic book.
*"Denial is half the battle," quips Tunnel Rat, riffing on the classic ''Joe'' [[public service announcement]]s that ended with "Knowing is half the battle."
*Cold Front? Red Spot? Who ''are'' all these guys? Never small to begin with in this series, the Joe ranks swell even further with the first appearances of many lesser-known Joes, most of whom hail from the 1988, 1989, and 1990 product lines released in the gap between ''G.I. Joe'' animated series, and who consequently never gained the wider exposure and recognition that came with being in the one ''Joe'' cartoon anyone cares about. This being a ''Transformers'' wiki, we'd gamble you've not heard of most of them!

===Real-life references===
*Roadblock recalls his best Christmas as a child, when he received an {{w|Easy-Bake Oven}} and a {{w|Huffy}} bicycle.
*Cover Girl likens the discoveries the Joes and Autobots make about Cybertron's origins to ''{{w|Chariots of the Gods?}}''
*Ultra Magnus is playing the role of {{w|Charon (mythology)|Charon}}, the ferryman from Greek mythology who took the souls of the deceased across the river into Hades.

===Other trivia===
*This issue is dedicated to the memory of [[Herb Trimpe]], noted ''G.I. Joe'' comic book artist, who passed away in April 2015.
*Assuming he's not one of the two aforementioned caterers who presents Megatron with his grisly dish, a Decepticon chef named "[[Confektor]]" is mentioned.
*The usual creator commentary is absent from this issue, replaced with the prose story "[[Black Cybertron]]."

==External links==
*[http://www.comicbookresources.com/comic-previews/transformers-vs-gi-joe-10-idw-2015 Preview]

Transformers: The Battle of the Star Gate

2016-01-29T19:29:44Z

Lush City:

{{comicstory
|seriesissue=[[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers (franchise)|Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers]]
|title=''Transformers: The Battle of Star Gate'' {{sic}}
|japanese=トランスフォーマースターゲート戦役
|romaji=Transformer Star Gate Sen'eki
|image=Star Gate Battles manga cover.jpg
|caption=You know what's he's going to say.
|publisher=[[Brain-Navi Comics]]
|date=[[June 29]], [[2009]]
|manga by=[[Naoto Tsushima]]
|editor=[[TakaraTomy]]
|pagecount=192
|price=1,751 yen
|ISBN=ISBN 4904293266<br>
ISBN 978-4904293263
|continuity=[[Generation 1 continuity family]]
}}

'''''Transformers: The Battle of the Star Gate''''' is a [[manga]] written and drawn by [[Naoto Tsushima]] and published from issues 11 to 14 of ''[[Super Robot Magazine]]'' in 2003. The story is set in the 1990s, in the intermezzo between the end of the second season of the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|original cartoon series]] and ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''. Cut short by the cancellation of ''Super Robot Magazine'' with its fourteenth issue, "The Battle of the Star Gate" is something of an obscure "forgotten adventure", but was nonetheless incorporated into 2007's [[Generation 1 cartoon timeline (Japan)|Japanese cartoon continuity timeline]], its open ending helping to incorporate ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|Car Robots]]'' into continuity.

In [[2009]], [[Brain-Navi Comics|Brain-Navi]] compiled all four chapters into one volume.

{{chapters
|title=''Transformers: The Battle of the Star Gate'' issues
|content=
*[[First Contact (Star Gate)|#1]]
*[[Divided Views|#2]]
*[[Activation|#3]]
*[[The Battle of the Star Gate|#4]]
}}

==Overview==
In the mid-1990s, the [[Autobot]]s formally enter into an alliance with [[United States of America|United States]] government, and begin sharing their technology with them in a mutually beneficial program. This upsets the socio-political climate of Earth, however: other world powers like [[Japan]] and the [[Soviet Union]] object to the alliance and began plotting with the [[Decepticon]]s, while many citizens hold anti-Transformer rallies, wishing the robots and their war off the planet.

Among the technological advancements that are born from this new partnership is the ''[[Trigger]]'', an interstellar teleportation system housed in a space station currently being constructed in Earth orbit, which will help connect the planet to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. Naturally, however, the ''Trigger'' becomes a target for the Decepticons, who stage an attack on it with the help of the Soviet Union. In the process, the villains narrowly avoid being teleported away by the ''Trigger'', activated through the heroic efforts of crew member [[Makoto (Star Gate)|Makoto]] and violently shut down by a blast from [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]]. The Decepticons are eventually routed the Autobots, but the ''Trigger''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s activation and sudden deactivation does have one unexpected effect: the ghost of [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Starscream]] from over a decade in the future is plucked out of his time and dropped into the middle of the conflict.

In the months that follow, Starscream's ghost causes havoc during a test run of the new [[C-X (G1)|C-X]] battle drone, possessing the robot and causing it to run amok, and whispers in the ear of his present-day counterpart, leading him to arrange an alliance with the [[Prime Minister of Japan]] that grants the Decepticons license to gather energy in the country. Using the [[energon cube]]s they gather, Starscream's ghost is able to fuse both himself and his present-day self with the ''Trigger'' space station, transforming it into a massive, misshapen robot body that he uses to attack Autobots and Decepticons alike. The battle concludes when Megatron and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] join forces, and Prime channels the power of the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]] into Megatron's gun mode for one destructive blast that obliterates Starscream's new body. But while the threat is ended, the Transformers are all caught in the backwash of the cosmic explosion and sent tumbling to Earth in flames...

==Characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Beachcomber (G1)|Beachcomber]]
* [[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]]
* [[Bumblebee (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Bumblebee]]
* [[Cosmos (G1)|Cosmos]]
* [[Hound (G1)|Hound]]
* [[Ironhide (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Ironhide]]
* [[Jazz (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Jazz]]
* [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]]
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]]
* [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]]
* [[Powerglide (G1)|Powerglide]]
* [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]]
* [[Jetfire (G1)|Skyfire]]
* [[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]]
* [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]]

|c2=
* [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]]
* [[Blitzwing (G1)|Blitzwing]]
* [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]]
* [[Galvatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Galvatron]]
* [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]]
* [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]]
* [[Ramjet (G1)|Ramjet]]
* [[Reflector (G1)|Reflector]]
* [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]
* [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Starscream]]
* [[Soundwave (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Soundwave]]
* [[Thrust (G1)|Thrust]]

|c3=
* [[Makoto (Star Gate)|Makoto]]
* [[Trov]]
* [[Flegg]]
* [[Anya]]
* [[Adle]]
* [[Katua Adle]]

|c4=
* [[C-X (G1)|C-X]]
}}

==Notes==
[[File:Star Gate Battles manga cover reverse.jpg|right|225px|thumb|And you know what HE'S going to say.]]
* In the colossal [[Generation 1 cartoon timeline (Japan)|retcon-heavy Japanese cartoon-based timeline]] revealed in the ''[[Kiss Players/15 Go! Go! Compilation]]'' book, the ''Star Gate'' manga is used as the key to wedging [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 cartoon)|the ''Car Robots'' cartoon]] into the time between [[The Transformers (cartoon)|the second season of the original cartoon]] and the events of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''. How? Well, virtually all of the existing Transformers end up missing at the end of ''Star Gate'', thus allowing for [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Fire Convoy]] and his crew to be operating on Earth without bumping into any of the old cast. Admittedly, how everyone was brought ''back'' does not appear to have been addressed, or just where Fire Convoy and company went at the end of the series, but... look just go with it, all right?
* The collected edition features a reversible dust jacket cover, Optimus being the default side while Megatron's side lacks any of the ISBN information and bar code as seen on right.
* Disappointingly, the collected edition did not keep the first several pages colored in "[[First Contact (Star Gate)|First Contact]]" as they originally appeared in ''Super Robot Magazine'', Brain-Navi Comics opting for a gray-scale version of the pages.

==External links==
*[[wikipedia:ja:トランスフォーマースターゲート戦役|''Transformers: The Battle of the Star Gate'']] at Japanese Wikipedia

{{DEFAULTSORT:Battle of the Star Gate}}
[[Category:The Battle of the Star Gate issues| ]]
[[Category:Generation 1 comic series]]
[[Category:Manga]]

Transformers Autobots/Decepticons

2016-01-29T18:40:38Z

Lush City:

{{nav-movie-game}}
[[Transformers The Game]] for the [[Nintendo DS]] portable console was developed by [[Vicarious Visions]] for [[Activision Blizzard|Activision]], in conjunction with the [[Transformers (film)|2007 live-action ''Transformers'' movie]].

==Gameplay overview==
It consists of two separate games: ''Transformers Autobots'' and ''Transformers Decepticons''. The games have different storylines and environments, but the basic gameplay elements are shared between them.

In both games, the player creates a character who can scan many different transforming forms. Each game features missions involving this character as well as missions focused on the movie cast.

Unlike most versions of ''Transformers The Game'', the DS version has multiplayer ability. The game features the [[AllSpark Wars]] online challenges, which allow the player to compete against other players for points to unlock more vehicle modes.

Also, in both games, Bumblebee remains the rusty '70s Camaro throughout the game, yet his character art during the talking scenes depicts him with the chest based on the Concept Camaro, which he never scans in game.

==Autobots==
[[File:TransformersGame DS Autobotbox.jpg|300px|thumb|[[Pokeformers]] Red...]]
This game revolves around the [[Autobot]]s and their attempts at preventing the destruction of [[Earth]] and the resurrection of [[Megatron (Movie)/games|Lord Megatron]], the former military leader of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]. After the battle of [[Tyger Pax]], [[Create-A-Bot (Autobot)|Create-A-Bot]] arrives on Earth, landing in the [[Las Vegas]] casino strip. After a quick run-down with [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]], he teams up with his fellow Autobots to retrieve the [[AllSpark|All Spark]], searching the quiet (and appropriately named) city of [[Tranquility]], but later heading to the [[Hoover Dam]] and even going as far as the Arctic to find the frozen remains of Megatron. All the while, Create-A-Bot must learn what it truly means to be an Autobot.

===Cast===
*[[Create-A-Bot (Autobot)|Create-A-Bot]] ([[Steve Blum]])
*[[Optimus Prime (Movie)/games|Optimus Prime]] ([[Peter Cullen]])
*[[Bumblebee (Movie)/games|Bumblebee]]
*[[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] ([[Mark Ryan]])
*[[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] ([[Fred Tatasciore]])
*[[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] ([[Andrew Kishino]])

===Missions===
'''Casino Strip'''
*''The New Arrival'' - Create-A-Bot arrives on Earth and is instructed by Ironhide on the basics.
*''Put It to the Test'' - The mission begins with your character being summoned to kill three Decepticons, after which the Create-A-Bot from ''Transformers Decepticons'' will come as a boss for this level.

'''Tranquility'''
*''Protect the Locals'' - [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/games|Optimus Prime]] sends Create-A-Bot to kill a drone in a minute, before having to transform and hide from the police. After losing them, he must kill two drones without destroying anything else.
*''Car Shopping'' - [[Bumblebee (Movie)/games|Bumblebee]] arrives and tells Create-A-Bot to scan some vehicles. The last car transforms into a Decepticon.
*''Information Super Highway'' - Create-A-Bot must scan the internet through radio towers to find the glasses. No, it isn't about [[Sam Witwicky]].
*''Police Brutality'' - Bumblebee goes to the suburbs and finds Barricade. He chases Barricade while being shot down by police cars. At the bridge, they battle.

'''The Arctic'''
*''Follow that Convoy'' - As a helicopter, Create-A-Bot must protect military convoys heading to Megatron.
*''Too Late'' - Ironhide protects 3 convoys being attacked by Decepticons, then searches for Megatron, but discovers the Decepticon leader has been moved. Afterwards, he steals a military computer.
*''Bad Reception'' - Create-A-Bot protects Ironhide as he goes to the radio tower.
*''Winter Showdown'' - Ironhide duels with Starscream at the radio tower. Starscream flies away to parts unknown, probably afraid of dying. He learned that strategy [[The Transformers: The Movie|the hard way.]]

'''Tranquility 2nd Visit'''
*''Happy Landings'' - Bumblebee must destroy [[Sector Seven]] defenses so Optimus Prime can come to Earth.
*''Know Thy Enemy'' - [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] must bring back three Sector Seven vehicles. The final one, a helicopter, turns out to be Blackout, whom Jazz must fight. It turns out that Sector Seven has both Megatron and the AllSpark, to Optimus' horror, who reluctantly decides to kill his former brother.
*''Driven to Distraction'' - Bumblebee must neutralize Sector Seven forces at various locations, distracting them so the Autobots can escape to Hoover Dam. Afterwards, Create-A-Bot accidentally leads more Sector Seven forces to Bumblebee when trying to help, and 'Bee ends up performing a kamikaze attack to let Create-A-Bot escape. Optimus decides to focus on the AllSpark and leave Bumblebee, which angers Ironhide, who claims Optimus doesn't care about the Autobots, only caring about killing Megatron.

'''Hoover Dam'''
*''In Through the Back Door'' - Jazz must go to the radio tower and uploads a virus. Afterwards, he must head to a computer terminal to download data on the facility and protect himself as it downloads. Ironhide apologizes to Optimus for his earlier outburst, which Optimus accepts. Jazz and Optimus note that the AllSpark seems to be favoring their luck.
*''Prison Break'' - Create-A-Bot is asked to destroy six satellite dishes and eight gun turrets and break into Hoover Dam. He frees Bumblebee afterward.
*''The Heist'' - Bumblebee must retrieve his weapons chip and the All Spark. Afterwards, he escapes the dam.
*''Clearing the Road'' - Optimus Prime must destroy Sector Seven roadblocks with Bumblebee in tow, after which he must fight Barricade and a Copter drone. Barricade dies, mentioning he was a diversion, then a cutscene plays in which Megatron finishes thawing and talks with the Decepticon Create-A-Bot.
*''Bombing Run'' - Overhearing Megatron's return, Ironhide must defuse bombs placed on the dam to prevent the loss of countless lives.
*''Interference'' - Optimus must duke it out and destroy Brawl.

'''Tranquility 3rd Visit'''
*''Narrow Escape'' - Bumblebee must escape Blackout while being under assault from Tranquility's police force.
*''Downtown Blackout'' - Atop a roof, Ratchet fights and destroys [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]].
*''Fire Fighting'' - Create-A-Bot fights against drones with Ironhide, then heads to fight All Spark-created drones with Jazz and then finally goes to protect the All Spark and Bumblebee. Once they get the AllSpark to Optimus, Megatron appears and steals it from them. Optimus goes to confront Megatron for a final showdown.
*''End Game'' - Create-A-Bot must knock the All Spark out of Megatron's hands and slam it into Megatron's spark. Create-A-Bot is killed, and Optimus Prime must defeat Megatron. Upon the death of his brother, Optimus vows to honor Create-A-Bot's dying wish that Earth be the Autobots' new home.

==Decepticons==
[[File:TransformersGame DS Decepticonbox.jpg|300px|thumb|...And Pokeformers <s>Blue</s> Purple]]
Similar in setting but unique in portrayal is the flip side of the story, ''Decepticons''. Here, a [[Create-A-Bot (Decepticon)|nearly identical robot]] has come to Earth at the command of [[Starscream (Movie)/games|Starscream]] to find the source of a distress signal from a "lost" Decepticon somewhere in the area. However, Starscream keeps many important pieces of information to himself, including the location of the All Spark and the identity of the Transformer locked in the icy grip of the Arctic. While this Create-A-Bot has to learn that being a Decepticon means loyalty to Megatron, it also becomes apparent that though they fight for different reasons, the Autobots and Decepticons are aiming for the same goal, namely peace on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], and also that their senses of honor are not that far apart.

This game is also unique in that the Arctic level is replaced with Qatar, and that this Create-A-Bot is almost immediately put into a position of authority, mainly because Starscream wants everyone dead.

===Cast===
*[[Create-A-Bot (Decepticon)|Create-A-Bot]] ([[Steve Blum]])
*[[Megatron (Movie)/games|Megatron]] ([[Frank Welker]])
*[[Starscream (Movie)/games|Starscream]] ([[Daniel Ross]])
*[[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]] ([[Keith David]])
*[[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] ([[Noah Nelson]])
*[[Brawl (Movie)|Brawl]] ([[David Sobolov]])

===Missions===
'''Casino Strip'''
*''The Rookie'' - Create-A-Bot arrives on Earth, contacts Barricade and learns the basic controls.
*''Hazing'' - Create-A-Bot dukes it out with several Autobot Drones. Afterwards, the Autobot Create-A-Bot shows up.

'''Tranquility'''
*''Beware the Locals'' - Barricade proves to be a crap boss, ordering Create-A-Bot to destroy property to learn how the human police force will strike back.
*''Robots in Disguise'' - Create-A-Bot must scan/destroy several cars. The last one turns out to be an Autobot.
*''The Diversion'' - Seeking to gain Barricade's respect, Starscream advises Create-A-Bot to neutralize the police and cause more collateral property damage.
*''Stings Like a Bee'' - Barricade chases and battles Bumblebee, and sends Create-A-Bot to meet up with Brawl and Blackout in Qatar.

'''Qatar Military Base'''
*''Decoy'' - As a chopper, Create-A-Bot must destroy tanks, jets, and helicopters.
*''Blackout at Qatar'' - Blackout must destroy 5 satellites, then scan 4 buildings under two minutes, all while under extreme fire from human forces.
*''Leftovers'' - [[Brawl (Movie)|Brawl]] must stop convoys from getting to the town.
*''Ratchet Retaliation!'' - Create-A-Bot fights [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] and Autobot drones. Ratchet escapes, and is not seen again. Starscream confides in Create-A-Bot that the AllSpark is on Earth, as is Megatron.

'''Tranquility 2nd Visit'''
*''Torching the Welcome Wagon'' - Create-A-Bot must take out the city's defenses.
*''Codebreaker'' - Brawl must protect several generators from Sector Seven for Barricade.
*''Reinforcements'' - When Optimus Prime arrives on Earth, Create-A-Bot must destroy several protoform Autobots and then incapacitate Bumblebee. Create-A-Bot is also disturbed by the reason the Decepticons hate Starscream: he is a treacherous snake who would kill you in your sleep. The Decepticons roll out to Hoover Dam.

'''Hoover Dam'''
*''Communication Breakdown'' - Starscream rather aggressively warns Create-A-Bot to not let the Decepticons find Megatron or the AllSpark. Brawl must take out 3 satellites and then plant bombs along the dam. Afterward, he brings Barricade a tank to get some information.
*''Cover Your Six'' - Create-A-Bot reveals Megatron and the AllSpark's presence on Earth (though Barricade had already figured out Megatron was on Earth), gaining the other Decepticons' trust for making the "right choice". Barricade raids a Sector Seven base to find info on Megatron's location, and then discovers that the Autobots have allied themselves with Sector Seven.
*''Tag Team'' - Blackout carries Barricade to get into the base. Barricade then must find the control room.
*''Megatron's Return'' - Create-A-Bot must protect Megatron from Sector Seven and later Autobots as Megatron is revived.
*''Get the Chip'' - Blackout must obtain Megatron's weapon chip from fleeing Sector Seven convoys. Megatron then rallies his forces to Tranquility to recover the AllSpark from Bumblebee.
*''Ambush'' - Megatron takes out turrets and Autobot drones. Jazz comes and brawls with Megatron, but is killed.

'''Tranquility 3rd Visit'''
*''Street Brawl'' - Megatron orders the Decepticons to storm Tranquility for the AllSpark. Brawl must destroy Ironhide, but is never seen again.
*''Starscream's Betrayal'' - Starscream must chase down Bumblebee, after which he fights and kills him, retrieving the All Spark. Starscream then kills Blackout, and Barricade tries to fight against him. Too bad he also dies.
*''Sibling Rivalry'' - Starscream learns of Create-A-Bot's defection to Megatron, which does not go well with the Seeker. Create-A-Bot takes down 25 All Spark Drones. Then he chases Starscream, who sends 25 more drones. After chasing Starscream again, 5 Autobot drones show up and Starscream escapes while Create-A-Bot must destroy the drones. Meanwhile, Megatron duels his brother, Optimus Prime. Optimus is killed. Shockingly, he is not the last boss. Starscream challenges Megatron and his last soldier, Create-A-Bot, to battle in the Casino Strip.

'''Casino Strip 2nd Visit'''
*''Final Showdown'' - Create-A-Bot weakens Starscream, who drops the All Spark. Create-A-Bot then slams it on Starscream, mortally injuring himself but not wounding Starscream at all. Megatron chases down Starscream, battling him at three rotating positions all over the map. Starscream dies, and Megatron eats the not-quite-dead Create-A-Bot's spark, claiming that he and the other Decepticons were weak, and only served to "benefit the strong." Poor kid. The AllSpark gone, his troops killed, Megatron then flies off into the night.

==Quotes==
{{note|Due to the two games taking place in their own separate continuities, we've elected to segregate the quotes to the respective game they first appeared in, to clear up any confusion. However, the following two quotes appear in both games, the former in particular important to the story of both, despite their disparities.}}

"You Decepticons just don't know when to quit! Time to teach you that the bad guys ''always'' lose!" <br>
"You Autobots are no different than we Decepticons. We might be on opposite sides, but we're ''both'' playing the same game."
:—The two '''rookies''' discuss the theme of the games.

"Dispatch, we have a code... umm... what's the code for 'giant robot attack'?"
:—A hapless human police officer.
===''Autobots''===
(''through the radio'') "You can choose from dozens of vehicles! Act now, and you can drive out of here with no money down and no payments till next year! This deal is HUGE!!!"
:—'''Bumblebee''' instructing the '''new recruit''' to scan some alt modes.

(''text message'') Because we can use the AllSpark to rebuild Cybertron. We would finally have a home again. No more roaming through space, no more searching. <br>
"I've never seen Cybertron. I've always dreamed of seeing it one day." <br>
(''text message'') You will... soon.
:—'''Bumblebee''' reveals the gravity of the situation.

"What happened to Cybertron wasn't your fault, Optimus. It's Megatron's." <br>
"No matter what Megatron did, I'm still partly responsible, Jazz. I could've prevented all of this from happening before it happened." <br>
"By destroying your own brother?" <br>
"Megatron may be my brother, but he is also the one who took the spark of our father... my friends... our world... I will do what I must." <br>
:—'''Optimus''' confides in '''Jazz''' his new resolve to end his war with Megatron.

"You young punk! This is war! Showing off is the kind of stuff that gets 'bots killed!" <br>
"Ironhide is right. But we have a more urgent matter. We need to retrieve the AllSpark at all costs! <br>
"What?!? You mean we're just gonna leave Bumblebee?!?" <br>
"Affirmative." <br>
"You don't care about ''any'' of us, do you Prime? 'Protect the humans, get the AllSpark, Autobots preserve life!' All you care about is beating your brother!" <br>
:—'''Ironhide''' confronts '''Optimus''' over his priorities.

"Interesting that the only information you were able to obtain was a way in to rescue Bumblebee. That's rather... fortunate." <br>
"The AllSpark works in mysterious ways, Optimus. Perhaps it felt it was time to get the gang back together." <br>
:—'''Optimus''' and '''Jazz''' discuss their recent turn of fortune.

(''through the radio'')"He breaks left... he breaks right... will he make it to the endzone?!?... I'm ready to go out there and give it 110%, all the way, BABY!!" <br>
"Bumblebee, ''please''. This is serious! Make your way to the AllSpark!" <br>
:—'''Optimus''' is clearly not a fan of American football.

"Don't take it out on me that you can't get along with your brother!"
:—'''Barricade''' aims below Optimus' belt.

"You Decepticons just want to spread destruction wherever you go. Destroying Cybertron wasn't enough for you?" <br>
"It won't be enough until all you Autobots are melted ''slag''."
:—'''Ratchet''' and '''Blackout''' face off.

"Optimus, if you destroy me, you destroy the AllSpark. You will never bring back your precious Cybertron!" <br>
"... I will do what I must." <br>
:—'''Optimus''' strips his eternal foe of his "eternal" status.

"Optimus... I see Cybertron. It's all around us... here on Earth. Make this our new home... the humans need us. And we need them... protect them, and they will protect us... (''dies'') <br>
"Your name will remembered throughout the ages for the sacrifice you have made today. We will never forget... ''I'' will never forget." <br>
:—The '''rookie''' shares his final wish to '''Optimus.'''

"For now, the Decepticon legions are vanquished, and though we have sacrificed much, fate has yielded an unexpected reward: a new world to call home. We live among its' people now, hiding in plain sight, until the day comes when we are needed again, to fight the forces that feed on chaos. I am Optimus Prime, and I send this message to all surviving Autobots taking refuge among the stars: you are not alone. We are here. We are waiting..."
:—'''Optimus Prime''''s closing narration.

===''Decepticons''===

"Wanna play 'catch the projectile'?"
:—'''Brawl''' in a... well, brawl.

"Starscream will want to know about this." <br>
"Starscream can blow it out his exhaust! Once we revive Megatron, we won't need to worry about Starscream!" <br>
"What makes you think Megatron is such a better ruler than Starscream?" <br>
"Because you know where you stand with Megatron. Starscream is the type who would kill you in your sleep! Megatron would have the ball bearings to do it to your face."
:—'''Barricade''' takes the '''rookie''' to school on Decepticon leadership.

"Gee. Blow up a bunch of stationary targets that won't fight back. How. Exciting."
:—'''Brawl''' finds his job lacking.

"Good job, Brawl. Now we can have some fun, finding out what this human knows." <br>
"Oh, goodie! I love to play with new friends!" <br>
(''scene fades to black'') <br>
"Does it hurt?"
:—It's probably best we don't see how '''Barricade''' and '''Brawl''' interrogate the human soldier.

"My Decepticon brothers, we are united once again. Today we dine on the sparks of all Autobots. Today I reduce Starscream to a pile of scrap metal! Today we recover the AllSpark and show the universe what it means to be a '''Decepticon'''!"
:—'''Megatron''' rallies his loyal Decepticons.

"Now... you see... what it means to be... a Decepticon."
:—'''Barricade''' has a final moment with the '''rookie'''.

"You are guilty of the one unforgivable crime: FAILURE!" <br>
"I won't be the last, Megatron. Someone will ''always'' be there to challenge your leadership!" <br>
"...Maybe. But they will all suffer the same fate as ''you''." <br>
:—'''Megatron''' can handle '''Starscream's''' treachery, but [[Master Blaster|not his incompetence!]]

"Weakness is a rust that must be stripped away... just like you!" <br>
"But... but... I helped save you!" <br>
"Yes, but you are heavily damaged..." <br>
"...could be repaired.. "<br>
''(Megatron kills Create-A-Con)'' <br>
"A waste of resources. The weak only serve to benefit the strong."
:—'''Megatron''' executes the '''rookie''' for his troubles. What a nice boss.

==Reception==
Although still scoring fairly low, the two versions of the game got generally better reviews than their [[Transformers The Game (console)|other]] [[Transformers The Game (PSP)|counterparts]]. ''Autobots'' currently has a [http://www.metacritic.com/game/ds/transformers-autobots 67 on Metacritic], while ''Decepticons'' [http://www.metacritic.com/game/ds/transformers-decepticons only has 66]. Reviewers were turned off by the poor graphics and number of glitches when compared to the console versions, but praised the open-world gameplay and ability to transform at any time. Because, you know, this is a game about [[Transformer]]s.

==External links==
*[http://www.transformersgame.com Official website for Transformers: The Game]

[[Category:Movie video games]]

Primacron

2016-01-29T16:36:43Z

Lush City: /* Notes */

:''Primacron is <s>a fish-monkey</s> an [[alien]] from the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]], [[Unicron Trilogy]], and [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[Continuity family|continuity families]].''

[[File:Primacron.jpg|250px|thumb|There are some things man just wasn't meant to know!]]
'''Primacron''' is an absolutely ancient scientist. He's supposedly hyper-intelligent with an infinity of intricate plans nested within plans, but he sometimes over-thinks things to the point of coming off as rather dim.

His major claim to fame is being responsible for building [[Unicron]] near the beginning of the galaxy. Thanks for nothing.

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
====''The Transformers'' cartoon====
{{voiceactor|[[Philip L. Clarke]] (English), [[Keiichi Nanba]] (Japanese)|[[Peter Musäus]] (German)}}

[[Oracle (G1)|Primacron's assistant]] claims that they built some of the [[Primitive|"primitive" Transformers]] way back then. As he grew more ambitious, Primacron eventually constructed Unicron, who rebelled against him. Unicron's attack appeared to destroy the assistant and badly injured Primacron.

Primacron was down but not out. Not to be undone by a giant planet-devouring robotic monster, Primacron returned millions of years later to try the whole conquest again. This time, he created the giant energy-siphoning monster [[Tornedron]]. The same thing proceeded to happen again and Primacron would have been dead, if not for Grimlock's simple instincts (which somehow told him to reverse the polarity). Grimlock then proceeded to wreck his lab. {{storylink|Call of the Primitives}}

====Controverse====
{{charstubfiction|{{storylink|Controverse}} {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}}}

===IDW Generation 1 continuity===
[[Scoop (G1)|Scoop]] used the phrase "Primacron knows". After being captured by [[Bludgeon (G1)|a maniac]] and learning of his plans with [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]], [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] said, "Primacron protect us!" {{storylink|Stormbringer issue 2|Stormbringer #2}}

===''Animated'' cartoon===
On his stellar cartography map, [[Swindle (Animated)|Swindle]] noted Primacron's lab on [[Protos]]. {{Storylink|Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
[[Vector Prime]] clarified that any Unicron created by a Primacron was not the [[multiversal singularity]] Unicron. He also noted that Primacron was not immune to fashion trends, wearing a yellow helmet because it was "all the rage" in [[Primax 984.17 Alpha]].

In [[Aurex 304.0 Epsilon]], the mad genius Primacron unleashed [[Mini-Con]]s on the cosmos. He also created [[Tornedron]], which drained the entire universe dry of life and energy; Primacron did not survive his ultimate creation's exponential growth. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}

==Notes==
*When first telling their story, the assistant calls him "the being we will ''refer to'' as Primacron" and later calls himself "the Primacron's assistant". These seem to suggest that "Primacron" may actually be some sort of title and not this creature's actual name.
*Primacron leaves open large questions about how he relates to previously or later established history. Included among these are which primitives did he build, how Primacron relates to the [[Quintesson]]s, to [[Vector Sigma]], to his assistant, to the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], and the [[Primus]]/Unicron mythos. These threads would be picked up in the [[Generation 1 cartoon timeline (Japan)| Japanese Generation One Timeline]], which conflated [[Primacron's assistant |his assistant]], [[Vector Sigma]], [[ Oracle (G1)| The Oracle]], [[ Oracle (BM) |The ''other'' Oracle]], The Matrix and [[Primus]] into one character. Bravo TakaraTomy. ''Bravo.''
===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Primacron''' (プリマクロン ''Purimakuron'')
*''Mandarin:'' '''Zhìzūn Tàijūn''' (China, 至尊太君, "Supreme Great Lord")

[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Armada characters]]
[[Category:Generation 1 aliens]]
[[Category:Multi-family characters]]
[[Category:Scientists]]
[[Category:Unicron-related characters]]

Primacron

2016-01-29T16:35:19Z

Lush City: /* Notes */

:''Primacron is <s>a fish-monkey</s> an [[alien]] from the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]], [[Unicron Trilogy]], and [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[Continuity family|continuity families]].''

[[File:Primacron.jpg|250px|thumb|There are some things man just wasn't meant to know!]]
'''Primacron''' is an absolutely ancient scientist. He's supposedly hyper-intelligent with an infinity of intricate plans nested within plans, but he sometimes over-thinks things to the point of coming off as rather dim.

His major claim to fame is being responsible for building [[Unicron]] near the beginning of the galaxy. Thanks for nothing.

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
====''The Transformers'' cartoon====
{{voiceactor|[[Philip L. Clarke]] (English), [[Keiichi Nanba]] (Japanese)|[[Peter Musäus]] (German)}}

[[Oracle (G1)|Primacron's assistant]] claims that they built some of the [[Primitive|"primitive" Transformers]] way back then. As he grew more ambitious, Primacron eventually constructed Unicron, who rebelled against him. Unicron's attack appeared to destroy the assistant and badly injured Primacron.

Primacron was down but not out. Not to be undone by a giant planet-devouring robotic monster, Primacron returned millions of years later to try the whole conquest again. This time, he created the giant energy-siphoning monster [[Tornedron]]. The same thing proceeded to happen again and Primacron would have been dead, if not for Grimlock's simple instincts (which somehow told him to reverse the polarity). Grimlock then proceeded to wreck his lab. {{storylink|Call of the Primitives}}

====Controverse====
{{charstubfiction|{{storylink|Controverse}} {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}}}

===IDW Generation 1 continuity===
[[Scoop (G1)|Scoop]] used the phrase "Primacron knows". After being captured by [[Bludgeon (G1)|a maniac]] and learning of his plans with [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]], [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] said, "Primacron protect us!" {{storylink|Stormbringer issue 2|Stormbringer #2}}

===''Animated'' cartoon===
On his stellar cartography map, [[Swindle (Animated)|Swindle]] noted Primacron's lab on [[Protos]]. {{Storylink|Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
[[Vector Prime]] clarified that any Unicron created by a Primacron was not the [[multiversal singularity]] Unicron. He also noted that Primacron was not immune to fashion trends, wearing a yellow helmet because it was "all the rage" in [[Primax 984.17 Alpha]].

In [[Aurex 304.0 Epsilon]], the mad genius Primacron unleashed [[Mini-Con]]s on the cosmos. He also created [[Tornedron]], which drained the entire universe dry of life and energy; Primacron did not survive his ultimate creation's exponential growth. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}

==Notes==
*When first telling their story, the assistant calls him "the being we will ''refer to'' as Primacron" and later calls himself "the Primacron's assistant". These seem to suggest that "Primacron" may actually be some sort of title and not this creature's actual name.
*Primacron leaves open large questions about how he relates to previously or later established history. Included among these are which primitives did he build, how Primacron relates to the [[Quintesson]]s, to [[Vector Sigma]], to his assistant, to the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], and the [[Primus]]/Unicron mythos. These threads would be picked up in the Japanese Generation One Timeline, which conflated [[Primacron's assistant |his assistant]], [[Vector Sigma]], [[ Oracle (G1)| The Oracle]], [[ Oracle (BM) |The ''other'' Oracle]], The Matrix and [[Primus]] into one character. Bravo TakaraTomy. ''Bravo.''
===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Primacron''' (プリマクロン ''Purimakuron'')
*''Mandarin:'' '''Zhìzūn Tàijūn''' (China, 至尊太君, "Supreme Great Lord")

[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Armada characters]]
[[Category:Generation 1 aliens]]
[[Category:Multi-family characters]]
[[Category:Scientists]]
[[Category:Unicron-related characters]]

Primacron

2016-01-29T16:34:03Z

Lush City:

:''Primacron is <s>a fish-monkey</s> an [[alien]] from the [[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]], [[Unicron Trilogy]], and [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]] [[Continuity family|continuity families]].''

[[File:Primacron.jpg|250px|thumb|There are some things man just wasn't meant to know!]]
'''Primacron''' is an absolutely ancient scientist. He's supposedly hyper-intelligent with an infinity of intricate plans nested within plans, but he sometimes over-thinks things to the point of coming off as rather dim.

His major claim to fame is being responsible for building [[Unicron]] near the beginning of the galaxy. Thanks for nothing.

==Fiction==
===Generation 1 cartoon continuity===
====''The Transformers'' cartoon====
{{voiceactor|[[Philip L. Clarke]] (English), [[Keiichi Nanba]] (Japanese)|[[Peter Musäus]] (German)}}

[[Oracle (G1)|Primacron's assistant]] claims that they built some of the [[Primitive|"primitive" Transformers]] way back then. As he grew more ambitious, Primacron eventually constructed Unicron, who rebelled against him. Unicron's attack appeared to destroy the assistant and badly injured Primacron.

Primacron was down but not out. Not to be undone by a giant planet-devouring robotic monster, Primacron returned millions of years later to try the whole conquest again. This time, he created the giant energy-siphoning monster [[Tornedron]]. The same thing proceeded to happen again and Primacron would have been dead, if not for Grimlock's simple instincts (which somehow told him to reverse the polarity). Grimlock then proceeded to wreck his lab. {{storylink|Call of the Primitives}}

====Controverse====
{{charstubfiction|{{storylink|Controverse}} {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}}}

===IDW Generation 1 continuity===
[[Scoop (G1)|Scoop]] used the phrase "Primacron knows". After being captured by [[Bludgeon (G1)|a maniac]] and learning of his plans with [[Thunderwing (G1)|Thunderwing]], [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] said, "Primacron protect us!" {{storylink|Stormbringer issue 2|Stormbringer #2}}

===''Animated'' cartoon===
On his stellar cartography map, [[Swindle (Animated)|Swindle]] noted Primacron's lab on [[Protos]]. {{Storylink|Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The AllSpark Almanac II}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
[[Vector Prime]] clarified that any Unicron created by a Primacron was not the [[multiversal singularity]] Unicron. He also noted that Primacron was not immune to fashion trends, wearing a yellow helmet because it was "all the rage" in [[Primax 984.17 Alpha]].

In [[Aurex 304.0 Epsilon]], the mad genius Primacron unleashed [[Mini-Con]]s on the cosmos. He also created [[Tornedron]], which drained the entire universe dry of life and energy; Primacron did not survive his ultimate creation's exponential growth. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}

==Notes==
*When first telling their story, the assistant calls him "the being we will ''refer to'' as Primacron" and later calls himself "the Primacron's assistant". These seem to suggest that "Primacron" may actually be some sort of title and not this creature's actual name.
*Primacron leaves open large questions about how he relates to previously or later established history. Included among these are which primitives did he build, how Primacron relates to the [[Quintesson]]s, to [[Vector Sigma]], to his assistant, to the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], and the [[Primus]]/Unicron mythos. These threads would be picked up in the Japanese Generation One Timeline, which conflated [[Primacron's Assistant |his assistant]], [[Vector Sigma]], [[ Oracle (G1)| The Oracle]], [[ Oracle (BM) |The ''other'' Oracle]], The Matrix and [[Primus]] into one character. Bravo TakaraTomy. ''Bravo.''
===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Primacron''' (プリマクロン ''Purimakuron'')
*''Mandarin:'' '''Zhìzūn Tàijūn''' (China, 至尊太君, "Supreme Great Lord")

[[Category:Animated characters]]
[[Category:Armada characters]]
[[Category:Generation 1 aliens]]
[[Category:Multi-family characters]]
[[Category:Scientists]]
[[Category:Unicron-related characters]]

Primacron's assistant

2016-01-29T16:33:58Z

Lush City: Redirected page to Oracle (G1)

#REDIRECT[[Oracle (G1)]]

User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47

2016-01-29T00:56:24Z

Lush City:

== Section names ==

It's just "Cybertron comic" and "Universe comic" because there are no other comics by those names. You do not need to add the publisher names. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] ([[User talk:Mimi|talk]]) 01:53, 6 April 2015 (EDT)

== Contractions ==

Why are you expanding contractions in article writeups? That isn't necessary. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:28, 12 April 2015 (EDT)
:See above. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:55, 12 April 2015 (EDT)
::I thought that in a few instances, the sentence flowed better without the contraction. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 23:56, 12 April 2015 (EDT)
:::Hmm, fair enough! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 01:55, 13 April 2015 (EDT)

== Section headers ==

Pleeeease don't start adding "Beast Wars cartoon continuity" to every page for isolated sections without discussing its necessity. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:02, 16 April 2015 (EDT)
:Once again... [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:01, 9 May 2015 (EDT)

==Dimension hoppers==
Thank you for making it obvious why Axiom Nexus citizens make the Dimension Hoppers category pointless. Please undo your work. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:52, 26 April 2015 (EDT)
: I'm also wondering why a lot of these guys are being added to the Dimension Hoppers category. Why are the Autojetters and Seacons going in there? I don't see anything on their pages about going from one continuity family to another. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:55, 26 April 2015 (EDT)
: Okay okay, all right, apparently you have moved all of the G1 guys from "Invasion" into the category because they live in SG now. This is... arguably unnecessary, because if you read the dimension hoppers category, the category exists for characters who change continuity families, and both Classics and SG are Primax. Whether Positive Primax and Negative Primax constitute something different enough to warrant the category is NOT SOMETHING WE HAVE DISCUSSED, SO PLEASE MOVE THEM BACK UNTIL DISCUSSION IS HAD, THANK YOU. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:00, 26 April 2015 (EDT)
::Well they were there in "BW:SG" even though they didn't do anything with any actual Shattered Glass dudes. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:57, 26 April 2015 (EDT)
:::FACEPALM DIRECTED AT YOU, READ ABOVE --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:00, 26 April 2015 (EDT)
:::I hadn't noticed you'd updated with that when I began editing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]])
::::When I started adding characters to the Dimension Hoppers category, characters like [[Ultra Magnus (SG)]] and [[Treadshot (SG)]] were already there. I figured that was because this wiki classifies G1 and ''Shattered Glass'' as different continuity families. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:05, 26 April 2015 (EDT)
:::::You also moved the entirety of the cast list of the Universe comics in there, despite the page explicitly excluding them. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:08, 26 April 2015 (EDT)
:::::For future reference, if you ever stumble across something that seemingly requires hundreds of edits, please please please please ask us about it first. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:11, 26 April 2015 (EDT)
::::::1. I apologize for breaking wiki protocol. 2. I guess I made a couple unnecessary edits with the ''Universe'' characters, but I was intentionally leaving out the characters who had only traveled to the Cauldron. 3. I moved the characters in "[[Invasion (issue)|Invasion]]" and ''[[Beast Wars Shattered Glass]]'' because I read on this wiki that G1 and Shattered Glass were different continuity families. I thought that the absence of all the ''Classics'' characters from "Invasion"/BWSG was a minor oversight to be corrected. 4. Why did you undo my alphebetization edit to [[Apelinq]] and Child of Primus category edit to 2001 RID Optimus Prime? 5. Do rapid conversations on talk pages always happen at this rate? I've had trouble responding because of edit conflicts.
:::::::In the course of running down your contributions list to revert everything, I figured there may have been some false positives, which I am in the process of fixing on a case-by-case basis. Also, I have placed Omega Prime in the dimension hopper category since he's actually gone from RID to the UT. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:40, 26 April 2015 (EDT)

==Night Viper==

Just to clarify, he was always going to be a Maximal toy. The Predacon history was his original intended backstory. Makes sense, him being a snake and all. Most of the reptiles were Preds.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 18:53, 7 July 2015 (EDT)
:Apologies. I will rectify that. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:58, 7 July 2015 (EDT)

==Removing "cartoon-only" categories...==
If a formerly-cartoon-only character appears in a comic, then you need to replace "cartoon only" with "Category: Fiction-only Transformers", not just delete the category outright. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:59, 14 July 2015 (EDT)
:Sorry about that. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:00, 15 July 2015 (EDT)

==Universe==
Nice work on this section. If you're up for it, other attributions for Children/Minions would be useful. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:27, 31 July 2015 (EDT)

==Overbite==
I meant merge Overbite with the G1 one page, not adding the new information to his Universe page but actually, I already add that.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 17:38, 2 August 2015 (EDT)

==References==
Do you know why refs that I added don't show up at the end of the page? I referenced Ask Vctor Prime in [[Uniend 812.21 Kappa|this page]] but it don't show up.[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 20:15, 30 August 2015 (EDT)
: You have to put <nowiki>{{reflist}}</nowiki> at the bottom of the page. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:23, 30 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 20:35, 30 August 2015 (EDT)

== The reason for Grum's name not showing up==

Though I can't say for sure, I suspect that [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal&curid=474&diff=1041903&oldid=1041898 Grum's name was missing] because he inserted one too many tildes when signing his post, causing it to put only the date, like so: 22:26, 6 January 2016 (EST) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:26, 6 January 2016 (EST)

==Gargent==

You deleted the Gargent image for the Universal stream page? Are we not allowed to use GoBots images like that? [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 19:56, 28 January 2016 (EST)

Daiakuron

2016-01-29T00:51:42Z

Lush City:

:''Daiakuron is an entity from the [[Generation 1 continuity family]].''
[[File:EarthRIP Daiakuron.jpg|thumb|300px|THIS IS WHAT QUINTESSONS ACTUALLY BELIEVE.]]

'''Daiakuron''' is a living, transforming world created by the [[Quintesson|Makers]] of the universe, who bestowed upon it the power to create life of its own. It is the creator of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and its soul, [[Primus]], and by extension, the [[Transformer]]s.

==Fiction==
===''Transformers vs. G.I. Joe''===
{{ongoing}}
Eons ago, Daiakuron devoured a ripened star and used its energy to create a number of other living worlds, including Cybertron and [[Unicron]]. In modern times, a group of [[Autobot]]s traveled into the depths of Cybertron and met the [[Keeper (Transformer)|Keeper]], who told them the tale of Daiakuron and showed them ancient statues depicting its creation at the hands of the Makers and subsequent spawning of Cybertron. When [[Cover Girl]] expressed amazement at the Transformers' origin story, [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] pondered the possibility of Daiakuron having created [[Earth]] and [[human]]ity as well. {{storylink|Earth: R.I.P.}} Under [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s dominion, Cybertron itself grew "horns" similar to Daiakuron's. {{storylink|Form Follows Function}}

==Notes==
*"Daiakuron" is the Japanese pronounciation of ''[[Diaclone]]'', the Japanese toyline from which the toys that would become the first Transformers were taken; appropriate, since it's the in-universe origin of the Transformers. It may also be deliberate that the name shares a "-ron" suffix with Cybertron and Unicron.

==See also==
*[[The One]]

[[Category:Comic-only characters]]
[[Category:Generation 1 gods]]

Talk:Inquirata (Prime)

2016-01-29T00:47:24Z

Lush City:

===Prime?===

Shouldn't this be Inquirata(Retribution) ?[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 19:47, 28 January 2016 (EST)

Talk:Inquirata (Prime)

2016-01-29T00:46:45Z

Lush City: Created page with "===Prime?=== Shouldnt this be Inquirata("

===Prime?===

Shouldnt this be Inquirata(

Beta Maxx (RID)

2016-01-28T22:51:24Z

Lush City:

{{factions|autobot}}
{{disambig2|the ''Robots in Disguise'' Micromaster|the Unicron Trilogy Mini-Con|Beta Maxx (Armada)}}
{{disambig3|Beta}}
:''Beta Maxx is an [[Autobot]] [[Micromaster]] from the [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|2001 Robots in Disguise]] [[continuity family]] (via a ''[[Transformers Timelines (franchise)|Timelines]] addition).''

[[File:BetaMaxx ProfileArt.jpg|upright=1.67|thumb|"The battle is yours, VHS, but the war is far from over."]]
'''Beta Maxx''', [[Alpha Trion (SG)|Alpha Trion]]'s tiny, enigmatic companion, has dedicated himself to discovering the reason [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertronian]] life came into existence. He is presumed to have been created during the [[Golden Age]], though the identity of his creator is unknown. Beta Maxx was constructed with a vast data-storage capacity, and his spacecraft alt-mode can be used as a [[Key to Vector Sigma]]. He is the keeper of a secret codex that can translate ancient Cybertronian texts, and he can interface with many archaic computer systems.

He can even use his alt-mode's side-cannon to beam massive amounts of raw data directly into an enemy's processors, to disabling effect. Unfortunately, his abilities can sometimes get the better of him, as taking in large amounts of data can leave him speaking in unintelligible [[Cybertronian language|ancient Cybertronian]]. Were he in battle at the time, he would find himself unable to communicate with his teammates. In such situations, however, his alt-mode's remarkable aerial maneuverability serves him well, and its front-mounted grenade pulse cannon can leave enemies quickly dismembered.

He is considered a myth or legend among most Autobots, but to [[Shockwave (disambiguation)|Shockwave]], he is instrumental in discovering the origin of [[Primus]] and [[Unicron]].<ref>[http://www.botcon.com/images/BetaMaxxProfile.pdf Beta Maxx's profile] in PDF form.</ref>

==Fiction==
===Ask Vector Prime===
Beta Maxx escaped from the hellish reality [[Viron 704.31 Epsilon]]. [[Vector Prime]] disagreed that Beta Maxx was more impressive-looking than [[Safeguard (Cybertron)|Safeguard]]. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}

==Toys==
===Timelines===
[[File:TL BetaMaxx-toy.jpg|upright=1.67|thumb|Ha ha ha, you dumb bastard. It's not a schooner, it's a sailboat.]]
* '''Alpha Trion'''/'''Weirdwolf''' (souvenir add-on, 2007)

: A [[redeco]] of [[Transformers: Cybertron (toyline)|''Cybertron'']] [[Vector Prime]]'s partner [[Safeguard (Cybertron)|Safeguard]], Beta Maxx transforms into a Cybertronic "HI-TECH Star Schooner" with a gunbarrel nosecone.

: He was only made available in a bagged [[BotCon 2007]] [[exclusive]] souvenir set with [[Alpha Trion (SG)|Alpha Trion]] and [[Weirdwolf (G1)|Weirdwolf]], limited to 1400 pieces.

: This toy was [[Repurposing|repurposed]] as Unicron Trilogy [[Beta Maxx (Armada)|Beta Maxx]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2007/Mini-Con/BetaMaxx/betamaxx.htm More info on Beta Maxx at TFU.info]''
{{--}}

==Notes==
*Beta Maxx's name references both the unsuccessful [[wikipedia:Betamax|Betamax]] video format of the early 1980s and [[Beta (G1)| Beta]] ,the g1 partner to the [[Alpha_Trion_(G1)|Original Alpha Trion.]]
*When he was first released at BotCon 2007, he was unnamed. His profile, distributed online some time later, was the first and only source of his name.
*When Beta Maxx's profile first went online, his alternate mode was labeled as a "HI-TECH StarZ Schooner". The current version of the profile has dropped the "Z".

==References==
<references />

[[Category:BotCon exclusives]]
[[Category:Convention-original characters]]
[[Category:Micromasters]]
[[Category:Robots in Disguise (2001) Autobots]]
[[Category:Timelines characters]]

Aurex 503.21 Gamma

2016-01-27T15:52:59Z

Lush City:

[[File:Panini01.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Yet another universe falls victim to the dread Predator of Low Sales!]]

'''Aurex 503.21 Gamma''' is a universe in the [[Aurex]] universal cluster.

==Fiction==
===''TransTech''===
[[Guardian Speed]], spokesperson for [[Galactic Express]], hailed from Aurex 503.21 Gamma. {{Storylink|Andromeda - Axiom Nexus News Reporter}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
The [[Unicron Singularity]] threatened this reality. Centuries later this universe's version of [[Maximal]]-[[Predacon]] conflict [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]] started. [[Aurex 615.03 Epsilon]] was spawned from Aurex 503.21 Gamma. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}

==Notes==
*Aurex 503.21 Gamma is the [[universal stream]] designation corresponding to [[Panini]]'s [[Transformers: Armada (Panini)|''Armada'']] comic. Its specifications are taken from the publishing date of "[[First Encounter!]]".

[[Category:Armada locations]]
[[Category:TransTech locations]]
[[Category:Universes]]

Aurex 405.0 Epsilon

2016-01-27T15:50:52Z

Lush City:

[[File:Balancingactcover.jpg|thumb|300px|An Epsilon stream without a "Member's Only" jacket, whoduthunk?]]
'''Aurex 405.0 Epsilon''' is a universe in the [[Aurex]] [[universal cluster]].

==Fiction==
===''Timelines''===
To save [[Primus]]'s energy in [[Primax 797.18 Epsilon]] from the megalomaniacal Predacon criminal [[Cryotek (Universe)|Cryotek]], [[Sentinel Maximus]] grabbed ahold of Cryotek and sent the both of them through a [[Quintesson]] portal into a dimension of nothingness. There, Maximus and Cryotek prepared to continue their fight, but Primus decreed that Maximus was needed elsewhere and transported him to Aurex 405.0 Epsilon, where the [[Unicron Singularity]] crisis was occurring. {{storylink|Wreckers: Finale Part II}}

As his ships launched to search for the colony planets holding [[Cyber Planet Key]]s, [[Ultra Magnus (Energon)|Ultra Magnus]] reflected that Cybertronian scientists feared that not only would the Unicron Singularity consume their entire universe, it would also spread into the hypothetical parallel universes as well. {{storylink|Force of Habit}}

===''Cybertron'' comic===
[[Sentinel Maximus]] and [[Omega Prime]], two Transformers from other universes, were called into Aurex 405.0 Epsilon to aid [[Primus]]'s guardians during the Unicron Singularity crisis. {{storylink|Balancing Act}}

==Notes==
*Aurex 405.0 Epsilon is the [[universal stream]] designation corresponding to [[Fun Publications]]' ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' fiction. Its specifications come from the month when [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club issue 2|Hasbro Collectors' Club #2]], with "[[Balancing Act]]", was mailed to club members.

[[Category:Cybertron locations]]
[[Category:Universes]]

Aurex 404.11 Kappa

2016-01-27T15:45:21Z

Lush City:

[[File:TF atari.jpg|thumb|200px|It almost makes Armada worth it! ''Almost.'']]

'''Aurex 404.11 Kappa''' is a universe in the [[Aurex]] [[Universal stream|universal cluster]].

==Fiction==
===Ask Vector Prime===
After [[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|Vector Prime]]'s memories of being one of the [[Thirteen]] were sealed away within his subconscious, he became the leader of the [[Autobot]]s in this universe. Under Vector Prime the Autobots faced challenges such as [[Devron (Armada)|Devron]], [[Megazarak (Armada)|Megazarak]], and the [[Destructon]]s.

After the conclusion of the [[Second Cybertronian War (Armada)|Second Cybertronian War]], Vector Prime was called upon by the [[Chronarchitect]]. Vector Prime passed the [[Matrix of Leadership]] to his second-in-command, [[Guardian Major]], and left with the Chronarchitect along with a small group of other Autobots who chose to follow as well, becoming known as the [[Time Warrior (AVP)|Time Warrior]]s. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}

==Notes==
*Aurext 404.11 Kappa is the universe of the [[Transformers (PS2)|''Transformers'' PlayStation 2 video game]] based upon ''[[Transformers: Armada (franchise)|Transformers: Armada]]''. Its specifications come from the North American release date of the game.

[[Category:Armada locations]]
[[Category:Universes]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-21T15:53:46Z

Lush City: /* Parodies */

Primax 207.0 Epsilon

2016-01-21T15:39:43Z

Lush City:

[[File:TimelinesVol2 2 Diamond.jpg|thumb|250px|]]

'''Primax 207.0 Epsilon''', also known as '''Level 22''', is a universe in the [[Primax]] universal cluster. It is a tangent timeline of [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and is notable for uniquely containing the important form of energon known as [[Rarified Energon]].

==Fiction==
===Fun Publications comics/''The AllSpark Almanac''===
Thanks to the destruction of [[Unicron]], [[Xaaron|an avatar of Primus]], and a [[Matrix of Leadership|tainted Matrix]], Primax 984.0 Gamma created many tangent universes. Primax 207.0 Epsilon, however, arose sixteen years after the other tangents, but the root cause was before the cause of the other universes. By some reason, Primax 207.0 Epsilon possessed a nearly identical frequency to [[Gargent 984.08 Alpha]]. As two universes cannot occupy the same frequency, the Primax universe "overwrote" the Gargent universe, causing the [[Cataclysm (GoBots)|Cataclysm]]. Prior to that, it had already destroyed [[Primax 1291.0 Zeta]], according to the [[Transcendent Technomorph|TransTech]]s' scans. {{storylink|Withered Hope}} {{storylink|Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac|The Complete AllSpark Almanac}}

[[Nexus Prime]] components [[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]] and [[Landquake (Timelines)|Landquake]] arrived in 207.0 Epsilon while on their journey to reunification. {{storylink|Revelations Part 6}} They linked up with another of their members, [[Breakaway (Classics)|Breakaway]], before continuing on their multiversal journey to [[Nexus 208.0 Epsilon]]. {{storylink|Crossing Over: Part 6}}

The [[Jackpot (G1)|Jackpot]] and [[Hubcap (G1)|Hubcap]] of an unspecified Primax reality were deported by the TransTechs to Primax 207.0 Epsilon. {{storylink|Gone Too Far}}

After being sidetracked in Nexus 208.0 Epsilon, a team of GoBots sent to investigate the [[Cataclysm (GoBots)|Cataclysm]] finally arrived in 207.0 Epsilon, {{storylink|Withered Hope}} joined by three more of their comrades. {{storylink|Sunrise}}

When multiple odd occurrences happened across the multiverse, the [[Transcendent Technomorph]]s' search led them to Primax 207.0 Epsilon, where they saw [[Ultra Magnus (SG)|Ultra Magnus]] leading a force to invade the universe from [[Primax -408.24 Epsilon]]. {{storylink|Invasion Prologue}} Magnus proceeded to use his [[Terminus Blade]] to destroy Primax 207.0 Epsilon, leaving only its Earth intact, which he moved back to his home dimension in orbit of Cybertron. {{storylink|Invasion (issue)|Invasion}} Also surviving were the orbiting starships ''[[Graviton (Classics)|Graviton]]'' and ''[[Talon (Classics)|Talon]]'', which ended up on prehistoric Earth of Primax -408.24 Epsilon. {{storylink|Invasion: Epilogue}} {{storylink|Shattered Time}}

The destruction of Primax 207.0 Epsilon caused unprecedented chaos throughout the multiverse, with large numbers of universe being forcibly fused together or ripped apart. {{storylink|Invasion: Epilogue}} The far-reaching effects of Ultra Magnus's villainy prompted TransTech [[Optimus Prime (TransTech)|Optimus Prime]] to form the [[Convoy (group)|Convoy]]. {{storylink|Invasion Prologue}} As he later justified to the public on TransTech Cybertron, the defeat of the [[Hytherion]] by the [[Alternity]] meant that the multiverse no longer had a natural deterrent to the spread of weakened and damaged universes. Thus, it fell to the TransTechs to mount an active response to the imbalance in the multiverse. {{storylink|Rook - Axiom Nexus News: Investigative Journalist}}

Primax 207.0 Epsilon's destruction sent ripples through the Multiverse that kept [[Vector Prime]] busy. The quantum vacuum it occupied was quickly filled up by [[Primax 512.5 Gamma]], another splinter of Primax 984.0 Gamma, and [[Gargent 984.08 Alpha]] was finally allowed to repair itself. {{Storylink|Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac|The Complete AllSpark Almanac}}

==Notes==
*Primax 207.0 Epsilon is the [[universal stream]] designation of the ''[[Transformers: Classics|Classics]]'' fiction. Its specifications come from the month when [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club issue 13|Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club #13]], with "[[Crossing Over, Part 1]]", was mailed to club members although Primax 207.0 Epsilon was technically seen first in the preceding comic story, "[[Revelations Part 6]]".
*It's overwriting of Primax 1291.0 Zeta refers to Classics "replacing" "[[Another Time & Place]]" as a sequel to the Marvel Generation One comics, just as the Classicsverse would be overwritten by ''[[The Transformers: Regeneration One|Regeneration One]].'' [[Transformers: Generation 2 (Marvel)| Generation 2]] remains forever ignored.

[[Category:Classics locations]]
[[Category:Universes]]

Primax 512.5 Gamma

2016-01-21T15:36:51Z

Lush City:

[[File:Regeneration One 80-5 art.jpg|thumb|200px|Only the fourth Marvel G1 Comics sequel, 6 more and the next one is free!]]
'''Primax 512.5 Gamma''' is a universe in the [[Primax]] universal cluster. It is a tangent timeline of [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]].

==Fiction==
===''Regeneration One''===
{{locationstub}}

===''The AllSpark Almanac''===
[[Primax 207.0 Epsilon]]'s destruction left a quantum vacuum that was quickly filled up by Primax 512.5 Gamma. {{Storylink|Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac|The Complete AllSpark Almanac}}

==Notes==
*Primax 512.5 Gamma is the [[universal stream]] designation of the ''[[The Transformers: Regeneration One|Regeneration One]]'' comic series. Its specifications come from the publishing date of "[[Counterpoint]]".
*It's overwriting of Primax 207.0 Epsilon refers to Regeneration One "replacing" the Classicsverse as a sequel to the Marvel Generation One comics, just as the Classicsverse had overwritten "[[Another Time & Place]]." [[Transformers: Generation 2 (Marvel)| Generation 2]] remains forever ignored.

[[Category:Regeneration One locations]]
[[Category:Universes]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-14T15:30:41Z

Lush City: /* Continuity Stream Bullshit */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
===Walky Calls It===
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

===Epilogue: It's all over but the crying===
:This was supposed to be a short reponse to Lush City, but it quickly grew, and as it did so, I began to re-evaluating my initial opinion on this matter. Bear with me through this wall of text, won't you please?

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>clears throat* I think part of the reason some many of the editors on this wiki, including myself, have grown to resent GoBots so much is because of the mass amount of bullshit that is generated every time they're discussed. This discussion grew more in a day than most others do in a week; even big, huge drawn-out arguments like [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|the Grand Galvatron fiasco]] that have reached an ''ungodly'' length pale in comparison to this one, and there are several other GoBots discussions just like this one. You know what they all have in common? They ''NEVER. GET. ANYWHERE''. This exact discussion has been rehashed several times over the course of the past 6 years or so, and I imagine that's pretty tiresome for the people who have been here to each and every massive GoBots bitchfest unfold one after the other. Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even ''begin'' to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant.

:When we first starting mentioning the GoBots and making pages to discuss their relevence to Transformers, it was like taking a puppy we found on the street and bringing him into our house. He was so cute and harmless, how could we ''not'' let him in? So we fed him and played with him and took care of him. As we did so, that cute little puppy slowly but surely grew into a vicious 80 pound behemoth that had a trail of destruction following it wherever it went. It may be the cutest dog ever, but it's harassing the neighbors and covering the house in fecal matter. Not only that, but it ate the sofa. It's more trouble than it's worth.

:Dog <s>metaphors</s> similes aside, seeing this discussion has really changed my tune regarding Go-Bots. It's fun to have it, yes, but not fun enough to justify the massive bitchfests that take place every time someone tries to discuss what the length and scope of GoBots coverage should be. When Walky said he was ending this argument, I don't think he was just talking about this one particular instance of the debate that took place over the last 24 hours so much as the entirety of the various GoBots arguments over the past six years. And perhaps it's for the best; it seems that the inclusion GoBots on {{SITENAME}} has brought nothing but suffering. I think we should really only be covering GoBots stuff from official Transformers fiction, and if we're honest, Renegade Rhetoric no longer falls into that category. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)

{{note|Somewhere around this point, I remembered that Walky had already kinda-sorta ended the debate. (I say "kinda-sorta" because it continued on in spite of this to some extent.). I took a look at what I'd written, said to myself "Well, shit. I gotta do ''something'' with that." So I slapped this note on here and posted the whole kit and kaboodle onto the community portal, relevance be damned. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)}}

:I get what you are saying, but does that make GoBots the problem, or the fighting? Even so, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. We come together, debate, and reason out the best course of action, then keep on it until the situation changes and we come to a new consensus. That's exactly what a healthy Parliamentary body should do. When RR came up we discussed it and came to a decision, what I was showing concern about was Walky using judgment calls to prerserve demographic integrity, it felt a lot like there is an image of who this wiki is for, and that it would be enforced despite the actual editor/userbase. The idea that a wiki, or any community is served by the people instead of the other way around is a dangerous precedent so I am concerned of what will happen with future "culture clashes." [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:41, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I say leave tomorrow's worries to tomorrow. We'll handle them when we get to them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:16, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::You make a good point, Lush City. Yeah, we ''will'' have to get together and lay down the new rules for this or whatever, but it's best if we give everyone a little time to simmer down and take everything in before we do so. This will eventually all be worked out in good time. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:24, 8 January 2016 (EST)

how unfair do i have to make this place for lush city to leave --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:32, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Let's not be overly harsh. We shouldn't make people feel like they are unwelcomed unless they are being purposefully offensive, or disagreeable for its own sake. Or are outright breaking rules. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:49, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:: I am being exactly harsh enough. I'm pretty sure I kind of said to end all this shit because it's strangling the fucking wiki to death! Being able to put a foot down like that is WHY WE HAVE ADMINS. But sure, by all means, let's argue GoBots for the sixteenth billion time and continue to alienate everyone, because having someone even nominally in charge is fascism i guess. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Isn't Lush City the guy who argued that IDW somehow wasn't G1? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:20, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'm sorry that I came off as disrespectful, that was not my intent. I just wanted to say that so long as people are able to abide by administrative decisions, and respective the of the hierarchy, I bare no ill will towards them. I didn't mean my statement to be seen as an attack towards you, or an attempt to undermine your authority. It came off that way though, so I apologize again. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (EST)

===Questions and self reflection===
So, Walky said basically that I'm the problem, or part of it. And I don't want to be. I've got a lot of energy and I find wiki editing a relaxing way to unwind. I like puzzling through the connections and figuring out those ah ha moments when I feel like I can glimpse into the author's head and guess what they were thinking. So. How do I use that to be useful? I've done thousands of edits since I signed up and I really thought most of them were welcome and appropriate. Please, someone, point me in the right direction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:All I can offer is the same advice from our [[Ulchtar]] discussion: "''Be helpful, don't just be busy.''" I mean this as helpful criticism, but you do seem to confuse the two. Above, when you tried to call attention to Foffy the Sheep's value by saying, "''Look how many contributions he makes a day!''", even Foffy pointed out most of that was just adding links. Valid contributions, no doubt, but it isn't what makes someone a VIP contributor. I've been here since 2006. I created many of the original G1 character pages, filled out the fiction sections for every Mini-Con in the Armada cartoon and every secondary character in ''Headmasters'', but I still consider myself a mid-level contributor at best.
:Part of the problem is you came in during the AVP flurry of activity, which wasn't a good example of how the Wiki typically operates. Moving pages back and forth, renaming articles, votes on content...these used to be extremely rare events around here, once every six months or so. So what you might have seen as standard, day-to-day activity here was really a rare hassle becoming increasingly more common and grating on the nerves of the admins and long-time contributors without you even knowing it.
:I haven't read through your contributions section, so I don't know what besides AVP you like to contribute. I know some of the fiction sections have become drastically out of date. With so many contributors focused on using AVP or cleaning up after it, pages like Rodimus's IDW appearances haven't been updated in nearly two years! I routinely troll the character stubs section linked on the first page to find things to do. Depending on your preference, there's also Images Needed and Wanted Pages to create linked on the front page, too.
:Only other advice I'd offer is, for the moment, work more on contributing to the Wiki in its current format, instead of questioning or trying to change the format itself. That's my advice. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 18:50, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I've found that another good way to help is by going through [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:LonelyPages Orphaned pages list] and linking them to the relevant articles, or making sure that the disambiguation pages mention every applicable character. Some of the character disambig pages are missing links to their Angry Birds counterparts, and I suspect that the same may be true for some of the Kreon versions of characters. There's also [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki:Community_Portal/Underlinked this] list of articles that aren't linked to enough; it might be slightly outdated, but it's pretty useful.<br>I thought maybe my experience as a fairly new editor might be helpful to you; I hope this turns out to be the case.<br>(Side note: I was unaware that moving articles and such used to be a rare occurence; I'll try to keep that in mind and avoid such things whenever possible.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)

==User:TAZ==
Someone should probably ban [[Special:Contributions/TAZ|User:TAZ]]. For whatever reason, he seems to really hate [[:File:DonMurphy.jpg]], and has gone out of his way to either blank the page or removes links to it. (I waited about half an hour before posting this in case he was hoping to get a kick out of someone mentioning him.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:44, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Done! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 18:48, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:23, 7 January 2016 (EST)

== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnoxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Marvel thing is a unique case that at least is relevant to character write ups—it tells readers that the Marvel UK stuff mixed into the Marvel US stuff doesn't count. (Of course, this only applies to articles that actually have sections for the original Marvel comics.) The text in the notes could stand to be trimmed down, though. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Do you have some other examples of unnecessary notes we could discuss specifically? I caught the 2001 Car Robots note you mentioned from [[universal greeting]], and I agree it's pointless unless there's actually an RiD vs. CR distinction to be made. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::Wings, Classics, RG1 on pages without the continuity they're referring to. Ask Vector Prime. I'm bringing this up now because we need to develop a better way of vetting templates that are theoretically going to be used on many pages. One or two "yes" reponses on some hidden talk page most people don't notice shouldn't be used as a community-wide consensus on things that dramatically alter the reading experience across multiple pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And looking at the other stuff we have, [[:Template:Notecmn]] could easily be made as part of the actual prose and flow more naturally that way, for example. ("In a divergent timeline, blahblah"). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:17, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And there's [[:Template:Notemoviebio]], which explains what is a regular occurrence in all of Transformers fiction for no real reason. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:19, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::A similar one is [[:Template:Notetitantlg]], which I tried to make pointless when we overhauled the movie character pages a while back and which I think we ditched ''most'' uses of, but is still out there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Not quite the same situation, but I'd like to chime in that I'm not a big fan of [[:Template:ongoing]]. Most of the time, editors completely forget to include it on the appropriate sections, it reiterates something that's obvious ("if there's information missing here, you should add it.") and it's a note that only gets put up so that it can be eventually be taken down. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:27, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I agree that it's quite useless when we already have stub templates. Either information is missing or it isn't and people just leave it up on pages that really don't need it because it's not that noticeable. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:33, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Ehhhhhn. I'm willing to let "ongoing" live, as, well, there's a TON of "dead" fictions and only a few currently-updating ones, and letting people know which ones are likely to actually ''continue'' and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative. "Stub" can mean "it came out already and no-one's bothered yet", which is... different than "this cuts off because the scheduled continuation hasn't come out yet". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:12, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::Also, if you find yourself overburdened with certain tasks, don't be afraid to ask for help. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:08, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Thanks for taking care of the CR note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::No prob. As for the RG1 note, I agree that it would look nicer as a single line of text. I'm having difficulty reducing it in length without leaving out something crucial though. I'm putting it on the back-burner for now, but I'll keep it in mind. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:18, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Tried cutting it down a bit. The G2 bit was redundant. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::Ah yes. Much better. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:48, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Yeah, that's equally informative, but also far less intrusive. Nice work, Saix -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I just wanna say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we have too many goddamned templates. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Two templates for discussion: [[:Template:TransformersComicMagazin]] and [[:Template:GIJoeTransformersfiction]]. Necessary or not? I feel like the former states what's already obvious by the fact that it's in its own section ("Comic-Magazin is not Marvel"), while I dunno about the latter. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Transformers Magazin could probably be done without. The {Gi joe transformers fiction} one, on the other hand, should probably be kept. With the way we use the {noteukonly} and generally treat the US and UK comics, I feel that we kinda need to point out "hey, unlike just about everything else from Marvel US, ''this'' doesn't actually fit into the Marvel UK 'verse." -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Joe one is terrible. It's just plopped into the middle of fiction write-ups with no specification as to what text it refers to. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I can understand the ''purpose'', but the execution just doesn't work at all. And I don't think it belongs on the issue pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2016 (EST)

I don't do much fiction-section work anymore, but if I can identify part of the problem ''with the fiction itself''... unlike most franchises, TFs has a metric fuckton of "major" divergent splinter timelines. I mean, how many different Marvel G1 comic timeline spinoffs do we have now that don't actually relate to each other? It can be difficult at first look of a page to tell the difference between a series of proper, one-timeline sequel-series and, well, the clusterfuck that is post-Marvel-G1-related stuff branching out like a hydra. So I'm loathe to just run with the "well everyone reading thew wiki should know this" mentality.<br>
So, can see ''why'' the templates began, but when we started getting more and more branches? A bit out of hand. And worse, it's not quite a thing the base wiki organization tools are good at adapting and making obvious. (Frankly I find it tricky to tell sometimes the difference between a <nowiki>===</nowiki>-subsection and a <nowiki>====</nowiki>-subsection, but that's another quibble for later).<br>
I think a good amount of this can be mitigated with some creative rewriting of the sections' openings, "ten years after the battle of Klo" or whatnot. And certainly that doesn't even need to be brought up if it's just a one-off page of a piece of minor technology from one issue of a spinoff. But for larger pages with a buttload of timeline-fragments?<br>
We might want to look into collapsible Notes. Just a single template that can be adapted not just for this, but, well, for anything. Whack it up top, collapsed, have it say "Continuity Note: (more)" (not as a default), then people can click on it and see "well this continuity branches off from blardeeblar and has no relation to blardeeblar". This way the clutter is minimal, the information on our confusing mess of fiction is right at the fingertips.<br>
Just a thought.--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:31, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:This sounds useful. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:47, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I love this idea. Collapsable notes could solve a lot of the problems we've been having with the templates as of late. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I just took a brief look at the voiceactor template, since that does basically what I'm looking at, and even that template's workings are beyond my ability to understand and adapt into a collapsible Note. So um. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::It depends how you want it to work. Something like <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1|text 2}}</nowiki> to produce:
<div class="tt1_graynote">text 1 <span class="ocreditspan">text 2</span></div>
::Or just <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1}}</nowiki> and
<div class="tt1_graynote"><span class="ocreditspan">text 1</span></div>
::It wouldn't be difficult to knock either of those templates up --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::Expanding off of what Emvee posted here, I've worked up a collapsible note template which can display a custom header, custom visible text and hideable text that is either custom or derived from a preset name. The first draft, examples and documentation can be found here: [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox/Template:CollapseNote]]. All critiques are welcome. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 18:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
::::Is there a way to put that in a gray box so it matches with the rest of our Notes? I think this has legs. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:49, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::::D'oh! There is. In fact, I actually did have the box but the CSS for it is only available in my personal CSS file at the moment. I'll go integrate that into the template itself for now, then once this is approved maybe it can be moved to a site wide CSS file to reduce template clutter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:40, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Okay, the CSS is now included in the template so users besides myself can see the gray box. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I love it. Nice work, Tigerpaw. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:37, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::Seconded, good stuff. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:16, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'll stick the css in the common file when everyone's happy. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:29, 10 January 2016 (EST)

== More Prominence for IDW ==

I'm going to propose a change, because the above discussion reminded me of something I find annoying -- the position of IDW in the Fiction sections. At this point, I believe IDW is the longest running continuous fiction in Transformers history. Yet while the 30 year cartoon and Marvel Comic are easy to pick out due to their position at the top or their multitude of subcategories, IDW is typically found near the bottom of the list, nestled in between Japanese micro-continuities, Sticker Adventures and, god help us, ''The Beast Within''.<br><br>
Is there a better configuration we could work with? I'd be supportive of a "Major Fiction" and "Minor Fiction" breakdown for the traditional "Fiction" section, if we could all peacefully agree to what counts as Major and Minor. Another thought I had was to do away with the ''Ongoing Fiction Template'', and just have "Ongoing Fiction" automatically at the top and "Previous Fiction" underneath.<br><br>
Any of this sound worth looking into more? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:08, 11 January 2016 (EST)
: Absolutely friggin' not, never or ever. Organizing fiction due to perceived prominence is counter to the very spirit this wiki was founded on. (It's also amazingly subjective and would be a headache to argue over indefinitely.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:36, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Wasn't that the point of changing the disambiguation pages though? So that the more prominent stuff was at the top and had pictures to help people? [[User:Omegatron|omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:23, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::That kind of potential slippery-sloping was why I had misgivings about that change in the first place. But Disambig pages are navigation pages, and articles are not, and I have faith that we can recognize the different needs for pages according to their utility and not just make everything the same just because it makes our brains feel superficially happier. But let me put it this way: Imagine Grapple's page. In a "we put IDW first because it's important" world, a dinky subsection in which he appears in the background twice is given precedence over a Big Looker storybook in which he is a major character. IDW isn't always super important to a character's page just because its fiction's gone on a decade! And here's the kicker -- for those folks who've appeared a buttload in IDW, those sections are split off into their own subpages and navigation at the very top of the page leads you right there, effectively already giving everyone this proposed functionality. And without losing the information of real-world chronological release order that levels the canonicity playing field, I might add. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:00, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Right. The disambiguation page thing wasn't something brought up on a whim. It's not a thing I'd propose for any other "type" of page, because disambig pages serve a different purpose than almost every other. That requires some special consideration. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:15, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:No, no, no, no and no, with a side order of no and no for dessert. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:Just throwing this out there as an alternative suggestion to moving the sections around: what do people think of the idea of bolding major sections in the table of contents, so for Optimus you'd end up with something [[:File:Contents bold test.jpg|like this]]. For the sake of preventing arguments we'd reserve it for the really prominent G1 continuities (G1 and BW cartoons, Marvel, IDW and possibly Dreamwave comics), since it's not generally a problem for other continuity families. I'm thinking this could be done very simply in CSS without having to edit a ton of pages, though it would mean that characters with only an IDW fiction section would have it bolded in their contents listing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:30, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::That's got some potential, I think. I don't think single-fiction character with bold in their TOC would be a problem. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:48, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:This ties into an old proposal from way back that I'd also found in my Community Portal re-read, and was brought up on Allspark (and I'd briefly mentioned here recently); the visual differences between subheaders are really quite minimal. It's hard to tell at a look where one continuity-line ends and the other begins. there's got to be something we can do just '''''visually''''' to make these divisions easier to identify by sight. Can we make the header-text for continuity-breaks centered? If we wanna get fancy, can we make a graphic the header? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:47, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Okay, apparently you [[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox:Fiction_header_experiment|CAN center section headers]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Did some experimenting and [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox|found a way to do this]]. Requires a little bit of HTML/CSS inside the header but easily doable I think. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:04, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Since the initial concern, at least, was IDW, can someone sandbox a G1 character with an IDW section to see how that might look? [[Pipes (G1)]] seems like a good candidate, since he's got a good-sized IDW section that also isn't so big it should just be a subpage. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 23:13, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I've grown pretty iffy on using images as headers, honestly. There's a lotta "standalone" timelines that don't really have logos and having only SOME major headers be logo images... ehhhhhn. Might be best to just stick with text, maybe a thin bar above, with a wiki-wide change to a thicker tier-1-header-bar. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:12, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Actually? Second thoughts, no. This would likely start too many arguments. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)

==The Goal Of The Wiki==
(slight editing of something I posted to the Allspark's wiki thread)

A little while back I decided to rummage through the Community Portal archives... from the beginning. The earliest stages, when we were hammering out how to lay out the damn pages, what we should disambiguate by, etc. Saw the suggestions for making information more readily-accessible (character appearance tables, the GO! Box, the navigation templates), the "common wiki" practices we rejected because they just could not apply to this franchise (character infoboxes, for example, thanks to the many many many bodies the characters could have), up through the big move away from Wikia when they started really fucking us over with their ads.

And during that lonnnnng string of arguments with Wikia staff, when we tried (repeatedly) to explain why this "only not-signed-in readers will see the ads so why are you complaining since you don't see the page-ruining ads see this will somehow make money!" thing was utter bullshit...

:''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."''

Re-read that. '''''RE-FUCKING-READ THAT.'''''

The wiki lost that mentality somewhere. At some point in the last few years, the wiki stopped being about the readers, what would make the vast ocean of material accessible and entertaining to them. It became a micro-minutia-based circlejerk. It became editors confusing anal-retentive busywork (based on the strictest interpretation of rules that always were meant to be applied with a slight degree of malleability because our subject matter absolutely HAS to be handled that way) with productive and useful updating. And with the advent of the Facebook AVP, it became "gee now I can make Real Transformers wheeeeee" with even more micro-minutia and bad-faith gaming of the canon policy that was originally meant to give equal space to the obscure so we wouldn't have the "prominence = more deserving" mentality (plus stuff very specifically made to create circumstances to middle-finger policies that have served us well for a decade prior).

Thus, people who've worked for a decade to make the wiki something huge and special and a wiki other fandoms look at and go "holy shit, we need something like this" find themselves frustrated and edging away as the spirit of the whole thing turns into this sour, solipsistic nigh-gatekeepery up-its-own-ass wank festival, especially when certain subjects just won't. Goddamn. STOP.

From one of our newest regulars:

:''"Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant."''

So when I see "hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important" or "why don't we rename every character in the Japanese-fiction writeups to their Japanese names", yeah, I'm gonna respond harsher because it's kind of hit that point where we have to start bringing the hammer down hard to keep this thing even remotely accessible to anyone who isn't fully engaged in the minutia of TFdom.

I think wiki editors (and others) need to stop and have a good think about WHY they're doing what they're doing, and who they're actually doing it for, and, ultimately, if they should actually be doing it.

There's an important difference between "can" and "should", and too many don't see it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:''look i already apologised for the japanese name thing okay''
:Well, said, though, and you've given me something to think about. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:...Yeah, I'm taking exception to this.

:Because of recent events, I wasn't expecting anyone to jump for joy, but this is a bit much. First of all, "''hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important''" is reductive and dismissive to the facts on the table and the argument I presented. IDW being "ongoing fiction" isn't my subjective opinion, it's a fact. It's also the longest running mass-market fiction not only ongoing right now, but also in Transformers history. So I'm not some weebo saying, "I like Japan, so other people must want Japan to be more prominent, too." (no offense, Riptide -- just for the argument) We were discussing a case of ''factual'' prominence, not the "perceived prominence" just inside my own silly head.

:And I don't need ''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."'' repeated back to me because it was you, M "Not lovin' this idea" Sipher I was thinking of, saying those very words, which made me think this was a good idea.

:Maybe we have different ideas about what casual readers are, but I think of them as new/returning fans who came here because of some ongoing fiction they just saw, and might like to learn more about. If they're watching ''Robots in Disguise'' or ''Rescue Bots'', that's cool -- most of those character pages are traceable by (RID) or (RB) disambigs, which is simple enough to figure out. And their Fiction box sections are (mostly) minimal enough to glance over and find what you wanted.

:But what about the comics? Well, first they have to know IDW is Generation 1, which isn't exactly on the cover of the comics. Then they have to know the Fiction section on a character's page is organized by release date. You and I know that, but is that rule actually posted in a FAQ somewhere so we could expect a casual reader to know it? The way Sunbow and Marvel subdivide on most pages, a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking the most prominent stuff is ''already'' on the top. And even assuming they're visiting the Wiki on a full-screen computer and not a mobile device, for the 1987 guys or earlier "IDW Generation 1 continuity" is likely going to be "below the fold". And if you made it to the end of this paragraph thinking TL;DR, imagine the casual reader going through this in real time. THAT was who I was thinking of when I suggested the Ongoing Fiction content that the casual reader might be looking for when they come here ''be easier to find somehow''.

:I'm not ''trying'' to throw your words back at you, M Sipher, but again it honestly was a post you made this week defending the Ongoing Fiction Template that made me think of this. You said, "''letting people know which ones are likely to actually continue and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative''". But the current razor-thin, World's Smallest Template Note doesn't really accomplish that. A casual reader may stumble across it by accident, if they squint, or they'll find it if they're already looking for it, but that's it. Floating Ongoing Fiction to the top of the Fiction sections negates the need for the template, lets new readers find what they were most likely looking for more easily, and those Fictions can just as easily be shuffled back down into 'release date order "dead" fiction' once they are no longer ongoing.

:If this was a bad idea, fine. But maybe you could provide me a definition of "casual reader friendly", because obviously my ''WWMSD?'' bracelet doesn't help when I'm too stupid to know the answer. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:09, 12 January 2016 (EST)

::There's a Table of Contents at the top of just about every character page. The wiki software even ''automatically'' makes a TOC if a page has enough subsections. That TOC has "IDW continuity" in it, which links directly to said subsection. Easy.
::Your proposal is nothing but arguments waiting to happen over what's "more important", to become more arguments over which "more important" fiction takes prominenece over the other "more important" (comics or cartoons?) with no actual ''benefit''. It is furniture-shuffling. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 13:19, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Not to put words in Sipher's mouth, but I don't think the main idea he's putting across is ''really'' about your proposal, Xaaron, you've just said it at a moment in time in which we are seeing a lot of what Sipher describes (but trying to dub something "more important" ''will'' lead to arguments - I remember way back when when people would complain we were putting the Marvel comic ahead of the cartoon). To repost something I've also said on the Allspark - which I don't consider to relate to your proposal, Xaaron - I have been saying for a long time in private conversation what Sipher is saying now, and several months ago, I tried to explain how we're basically responsible for breeding this attitude into our readers. It's the same attitude that caused the AVP brouhaha - we are seeing editors now openly state that the wiki has been a gateway to a lot of this stuff for them, and that they have fixated on the minutiae and the continuity-fondling, which is such a small part of what Transformers, and the wiki, is about that it's the wrong lesson to come away with. Wiki projects ATTRACT those with mindsets focused on categorization, organization, and pattern-observation. It took years before we had editors who were able to reconcile that way of thinking with our "and also fun!" approach, but they now exist, and are more interested in trying to make sure all the headers are precisely the same, that everything is in exactly the right continuity-order and header-structure and category, that all the disambigs are exact - that absolutely everything fits into its little imaginary box, and that nothing breaks the rules by coming out of its box unless there's a seventeen-week debate about it first. ORGANIZATION IS IMPORTANT, but - with the greatest of actual respect to our new editors, because it is thankless hugging busywork and its impressive that you're dedicated to it - as Sipher says, this "moving of the furniture" is all that newer-guard editors actually seem to want to do, or to be capable of doing. It's very, very easy to paste a one-or-two sentence nugget of information from AVP into the wiki, which is why so many people do it and why it got so out of control - but you don't see anyone falling over themselves to add Spacewarp's Log stuff, even before the two-week delay, because it's not presented in nugget form, it's a piece of prose that you'd actually have to - shock, horror - read and summarize, and - oh christ no - it's NOT full of references to pre-existing things so you can't just paste it into existing articles or throw the AVP stub template in. When - just for a recent example - I can go to the article of a major character like Ironhide or Thundercracker and still find tons of material that needs filling in, that says "it doesn't matter that it's been ten years, there is a lot more important work to do than making sure that header is a level 2 or a level 3 one." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::I just want to be clear that people who take the time to do "busywork" like, say, fixing links so they no longer lead to a redirect page are ''unquestionably welcome to''. That's good, that has a tangible benefit to our wiki (reducing server load). That kind of "busywork" is ''absolutely'' okay. It's the seemingly-endless stream of talks about reorganizing hundreds of pages, arguments over disambigs, and yeah, the "easy" trivia-nugget work that's grinding here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:01, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:I get the concern over the AVP-inspired editors, and even counseled Giggidy about this very issue above. In hindsight, I probably should've waited for the dust to settle more on the GoBots matter before suggesting something similar for different reasons, but like I said, the idea was sparked by the above discussion about the Ongoing Template.
:And I completely agree that a Major/Minor Fiction split would likely lead to more arguments than benefits, which is why I also proposed Ongoing/Not Ongoing. That's completely binary and objective. It's not subject to debate over which fiction is "More Ongoing" than another.
:I agree that the IDW links above the main character images remove any need for my proposal...for the characters who have them. My concern rested with characters like Jazz or Soundwave who do not have IDW subpages, and that continuity is 21 or 24 listings down on their Fiction TOCs, nestled between things like ''Q-Robo'' and ''Henkei! Henkei!''. But, as I believe Chip suggested on the Allspark, a way to resolve all this is to just be more lenient with allowing IDW subpages in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:31, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::I too proposed that. Is there a specific reason why that tab system isn't more prominent. Heck, maybe it would even work for stuff like the Marvel and Sunbow cartoons. Those tabs are a simple and brilliant way to get our readers to what they are looking for. A casual coming here after googling say "Prowl Transformers" needs to be sent to were they need to be efficiently as possible. A page tab on his page header right at the top with IDW staring you in the face ks a good solution that doesn't deal with any of the parliamentary bojangling that's been such a hot topic lately[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 01:25, 14 January 2016 (EST)

==Continuity Stream Bullshit==
I suggested this on the Allspark, and there's some momentum for it so I'll put it here.

As M Sipher said above, arbitrary furniture movement is bad. That said, all the continuity stream minutae is even worse, and serves only to bloat our pagecount with duplicated information in articles that will only ever be stubs forever. Why do both [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and [[The Transformers (issue)]] exist? Or [[Marvel Comics continuity]] if you think the continuity is more important than what the Universal Stream indicator actually decodes to, although if there weren't significant opposition I'd argue that since the stream encoding to a piece of fiction is a 1:1 mapping that we should respect that directly.

Since a Universal Stream page will not contain any useful information other than its actual stream indicator (and VERY occasionally some detail such as "this universe is destroying another one"), I'd like to propose that all universal stream pages either be redirected to the actual single piece of fiction that the stream indicator decodes to, or to the Continuity timeline page that best describes it - and somewhere on **that** page we try and find a place for the universal stream number. Perhaps in the same fashion we originally handled alternate names - directly below the introductory paragraph, in bold?

If this causes problems, feel free to disregard... but I've heard enough discontent about the matter and there's been enough push for it there that I feel confident enough to put my next foot forward on this happening. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:32, 13 January 2016 (EST)

My proposal is that rather than stream pages, major continuities would all get pages. a Marvel g1 universe page, a sunbow cartoon universe a Classicsverse page and so on. Then, stream numbers used in universe would be redirect to those pages. Minor streams would get redirected to the current list pages we have now; AVP additions to minor streams would go in notes on the works main page. (For example, Ulchtar would go in the notes of that videogame)[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:51, 13 January 2016 (EST)

I just noted that the already existing Universal Stream pages could be converted into continuity pages in some instances , http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Classicsverse could be simply renamed "Classics Continuity/Universe" for example[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 11:07, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm not seeing how universal streams are logically any different than random crap namedropped without context in stories all the time. [[Pralmtzurlz VI]], [[Vaulted Heights of K'th Kinsere]], and [[Payload of General Frightening]] have less content than most universe pages. There also isn't really a way to effectively have real-world information and then fictional universe information on the same article; [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] isn't going to look any better if you put all of the [[To Die Game!]] stuff on it. (Primax 984.0 Gamma is also not limited to "The Transformers", so, uh, what?) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:10, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::The difference is those pages are not wholly redundant. For example, yeah, maybe the city "Gygax" only got mentioned offhand in one story. But as it gets a page, it goes in the Category listing of "Cybertron cities" (or whatever it's actually called) and then when, oh, say, a TV cartoon writer wants to look up cities for references...
::In other words, BAM, the whole reason we did this wiki. The obscure was given an outlet, and it got used again. And this is far from the only instance.
::But this is not a functionality that serves any real purpose for the named Streams. You need to know the code to make any sense of them, at which point you can easily make up a code for any piece of fiction that exists. And ''every piece of Transformers fiction that exists IS canonically its own universe'', '''''and''''' simultaneously wholly-subsumed parts of other universes, because of quantum (read: pseudoscience arglebargle translation of a meta-based concept with no real defined rules because we, and I literally mean WE as in me and Trent, made it all up and jesus on a tilt-a-whirl some people think way too hard and too rigidly about this). All these pages do is create a hoop for people to jump through unnecessarily. We don't need the pagecount bloat.
::If people are REALLY concerned about stuff not from, say, that one storybook that some FunPub gag-strip or Facebook post placed some wacky new event, then there is a simple solution. NOTES SECTION. One bullet point is really all you need in the overwhelming majority of cases. Something else, a subsection under notes called, oh, "Use in Other Fictions" will cover it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 15:49, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, the "club fiction adds a bunch of stuff to some random micro-continuity" scenario is really the only one where the stream pages are even remotely good for anything - the Shell Game/Megazarak universe springs to mind - and in those cases it is potentially useful to have the info from a bunch of separate AVP things (or whatever) collected. But as you say, Sipher, that kind of thing could happily live in the notes section of the fiction article. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::From a group complaining about "moving the furniture around", there sure have been a lot of suggestions recently about deleting a lot of pages and taking all the info in them and putting them onto slightly harder-to-find pages. I'm not even sure I have an opinion on this proposal, but the observation struck me as odd. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Context is important, and the context here is bandwidth issues and reader experience. Those are fucking important. Every time we bounce a reader to another page, that's another tick on our sever, and these pages are, as noted, almost wholly redundant info when we could send them to a page that has the whole thing. And you're gonna sit there and claim that a listing of made-up words and number gibberish is somehow easier for a reader to use than just putting the relevant information on a page titled in plain English they're ''vastly'' more likely to find on their own. Okay, sure, whatever. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:17, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I think at the very least, there's little reason to argue that stream indicators for major continuities shouldn't just redirect to the continuity page, i.e. [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] to [[Marvel Comics continuity]]. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 16:35, 13 January 2016 (EST)

::Let me put this another way... the stream pages feel akin to having a page for "Khrapovik" then listing only the things ''Prime'' Ratchet did in the Russian comics on it. Again, ''technically'' a different universe, sure, but it's part of the bigger universe and splitting it out really only obfuscates info in the name of pedantry, and it's just better off folding it into the main. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:09, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::: That makes a lot of sense to me. This might be one of those situations where we want to use flexibility. If there is a continuity page that already exists, maybe the redirect goes there and we have a fiction section. If there's a universal stream and little else, maybe that can just go away. And if there's a lot of information about the stream, maybe we just keep it. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:06, 13 January 2016 (EST)
::So should we start compiling solutions for wn eventual vote. I'm behind the idea of replacing stream pages with pages for the continuity. In fact I think a good way to deal with extra Avp infor is to use are already existing arrow system. Thede added storiee are just like,say Regeneration One added to the end of Marvel US in a way, so for example. Mystery of the Convoy would get an arrow that goes to To Die Game, Shell Game would get an extra a avp write up detail.

But over all I am for us having Continuity pages instead of streams. Like was said above we don't need Primax Whatever Gamma AND Marvel US continuity pages.
[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:30, 14 January 2016 (EST)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-14T15:30:14Z

Lush City: /* Continuity Stream Bullshit */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-14T06:25:06Z

Lush City: /* The Goal Of The Wiki */

Aurex 402.24 Gamma

2016-01-13T16:17:01Z

Lush City:

[[File:DW Armada 1Raiz.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1| The surprisingly influential universe from the unsurprisingly horrible company ]]

'''Aurex 402.24 Gamma''' is a universe in the [[Aurex]] universal cluster. It was previously designated as '''Aurex 402.0 Gamma'''.

==Fiction==
===Dreamwave ''Armada'' comic===
{{stub|Worlds Collide stuff}}

===''The AllSpark Almanac''===
[[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|Vector Prime]] stated that the [[Sideways (Armada)|Sideways]] of Aurex 402.0 Gamma originated in [[Tyran 509.12 Zeta]] and was not the same individual as the Sideways from [[Aurex 802.23 Alpha]]. {{Storylink|Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac|The Complete AllSpark Almanac}}

==Notes==
*Aurex 402.24 Gamma is the [[universal stream]] designation corresponding to [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]]'s [[Transformers: Armada (Dreamwave)|''Armada'']] comic. Its specifications are taken from the publishing date of [[Armada Preview|the preview story]].

[[Category:Armada locations]]
[[Category:Universes]]

List of universal streams

2016-01-13T16:11:42Z

Lush City: /* Gargent */

While as many as fifteen quadrillion universes are currently known to exist, only a minute fraction of these [[universal stream]]s have had their official [[Axiom Nexus]] catalogue classification revealed. These are those streams, and the [[continuity family]] or individual [[Continuity|continuities]] they refer to.

==[[Aurex]]==
The [[Unicron Trilogy|Unicron Trilogy continuity family]].

[[Image:Hotshotarmada.jpg|right|thumb|250px|yUm YuM c0nTiNU1ty faMiliES]]

*[[Aurex 006.0 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed]]'' online game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 103.10 Alpha]]—the ''[[Transformers: Armada (cartoon)|Micron Densetsu]]'' cartoon.<ref name=todiegame>"[[To Die Game!]]"</ref>
*[[Aurex 105.08 Alpha]]—the ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (cartoon)|Galaxy Force]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 105.15 Gamma]]—the ''[[Transformers: Galaxy Force (manga)|Transformers: Galaxy Force]]'' manga. <ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 203.26 Zeta]]—the ''[[Transformers: Armada (franchise)|Armada]]'' [[Reader's Digest]] books.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 204.0 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers Energon: Battle for Megatron|Battle for Megatron]]'' online game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 304.0 Epsilon]]—the Megawing [[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] [[The Official Transformers Collectors' Club Magazine issue 1|instructions]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 402.24 Gamma]]—the [[Transformers: Armada (Dreamwave)|Dreamwave ''Armada'' continuity]].<ref name=completealmanac/>
*[[Aurex 404.11 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers (PS2)|Transformers]]'' Playstation 2 video game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 405.0 Epsilon]]—the [[Fun Publications]] ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]'' fiction.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 503.01 Gamma]]—the ''[[Linkage (comic)|Linkage]]'' comic mini-series.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 503.21 Gamma]]—the [[Transformers: Armada (Panini)|Panini ''Armada'' comic]].<ref name=andromedafb/>
*[[Aurex 603.0 Kappa]]—''[[Transformers Armada: The Energon Within|The Energon Within]]'' video game.<ref name="almanacII">''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II]]''</ref>
[[File:DWArmada5 Demolishor whatmakeshumanstick.jpg|thumb|upright=2.3|"Urg, guys, I think we've got humans all over these."]]
*[[Aurex 604.0 Beta]]—the [[Omega Sentinel (Energon)|Omega Sentinel]] toy.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 604.24 Gamma]]—the [[Energon Volume 4|fourth ''Energon'' pack-in comic]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 606.0 Kappa]]—the canceled ''[[Transformers Cybertron: Quest for Cybertron|Quest for Cybertron]]'' game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 615.03 Epsilon]]—the [[Beast Wars (event)|Beast Wars]] of [[Alpha Q's universe]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 802.23 Alpha]]—the ''[[Transformers: Armada (cartoon)|Armada]]'' cartoon.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Aurex 906.29 Alpha]]—the alternate universe seen in the end credits of the episode "[[Beginning]]".<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 1006.0 Beta]]—Jungle Planet [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]]'s toy bio.<ref name=andromedafb/>
*[[Aurex 1104.30-DB Zeta]]—the "[[Lonesome Diesel]]" short story.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 1104.30-JH Zeta]]—the "[[Fire in the Dark]]" short story.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 1104.30-JM Zeta]]—the "[[Something Robotic This Way Comes]]" short story.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Aurex 1107.23 Beta]]—the [[Tech Spec]]s from the Black Friday release date of the [[Cannonball (Cybertron)|Cannonball]]/[[Downshift (Energon)|Downshift]] "Search for the Pirate Moon" two-pack.<ref name=TransformersIQ>[[Transformers I.Q.#issue 56|Transformers I.Q.]] (issue #56)</ref>
*[[Aurex something something]]— the universe where a bunch of [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-Kill]]'s new [[Renegade]]s came from. <ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

==[[Cymond]]==
The continuity family for [[Pre-Transformer|pre-''Transformers'']] lines and other miscellaneous series related to ''Transformers''.

*[[Cymond 290.03 Alpha]]—the ''{{w|Brave Exkaiser}}'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Cymond 381.0 Beta]]—the "New ''[[Microman]]''" toyline that included ''[[Micro Change]]''.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Cymond 772.0 Beta]]—the ''Henshin Cyborg'', ''[[Diakron]]'', and ''[[Kronoform]]'' toylines.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Cymond 999.04 Alpha]]—the first ''{{w|Zoids: Chaotic Century|Zoids}}'' anime.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Cymond 1184.0 Gamma]]—the ''{{w|Starriors}}'' comic miniseries.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

==[[Fornax]]==
The [[Kre-O|''Kre-O'' continuity family]]

*[[Fornax 613.03 Alpha]]—the ''[[Kre-O Transformers (cartoon)|Kre-O: Think Like A Kreon]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Fornax 711.01 Alpha]]—the ''[[Kre-O Transformers (cartoon)|Kre-O Transformers]]'' cartoon.<ref name=completealmanac/>
*[[Fornax 813.0 Gamma]]—the ''[[Kre-O Transformers (comic)|Kre-O Transformers]]'' comic.<ref name=completealmanac/>

==[[Gargent]]==
[[Image:GuardiansAVP.jpg|thumb|upright=1.3|Cause of more fights over transforming robots than most Megatrons ]]

The [[GoBots (franchise)|''GoBots'' continuity family]].

*[[Gargent -1185.01 Alpha]]—an evil ''GoBots'' mirror universe from the cartoon episode "Transfer Point".<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Gargent 087.0 Kappa]]—the ''Challenge of the Gobots'' game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Gargent 984.08 Alpha]]—the ''Challenge of the GoBots'' cartoon.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Gargent 1084.29 Alpha]]—the five-part ''Challenge of the GoBots'' miniseries, comprising the first five episodes of the regular series.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Gargent 1184.10 Gamma]]—the [[wikipedia:Robo Machines (comics)|''Robo Machines'' comic]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

==[[Iocus]]==
[[File:VaderVsPrime.jpg|right|upright=0.8|thumb|Disney scrubbed the canon, but ''we'' remember.]]
A continuity family reserved for "miscellaneous" franchises without much accompanying fiction, such as ''[[Construct-Bots]]'', ''[[Bot Shots (franchise)|Bot Shots]]'', and ''[[Hero Mashers]]''.

*[[Iocus 214.24 Kappa]]—the ''[[Battle Masters]]'' mobile game.
*[[Legends Universe|Iocus 514.31 Gamma]]—the ''[[Transformers Legends (comic)|Transformers Legends]]'' comic.
*[[Iocus 606.0 Beta‎]]—the ''[[Attacktix]]'' toyline.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Iocus 607.02 Kappa]]—the ''[[3D Battle-Card Game]]''.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Iocus 1012.30 Gamma]]—the ''[[Transformers: The Ultimate Pop-Up Universe]]'' book.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

==[[Lukas]]==
The [[Star Wars (franchise)|''Star Wars'' continuity family]].

*[[Lukas 577.25 Beta]]—the ''Star Wars Transformers'' continuity.<ref name=completealmanac/>

==[[Malgus]]==
The [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|''Animated'' continuity family]].

*[[Malgus -411.27 Zeta]]—the "Shattered Glass Animated" universe.<ref>[[Transformers I.Q.#issue 58|Transformers I.Q.]] (issue #58)</ref>
*[[Malgus 410.03 Delta]]—the [[Otoboto family]] segments from the Japanese release of the ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Animated]]'' cartoon. <ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Malgus 508.6 Zeta]]—The ''Animated'' book ''[[Robot Roll Call]]''. <ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Malgus 1207.26 Alpha]]—the ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Animated]]'' cartoon continuity.<ref name=almanac>''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac]]''</ref>

==[[Nexus]]==
The [[Transformers: TransTech|''TransTech'' continuity family]].

*[[Nexus 208.0 Epsilon]]—[[Axiom Nexus]].<ref name=almanacII/>

==[[Primax]]==
[[Image:TransformersLogoSlantedOrange.jpg|right|thumb|300px|''This'' one, you know.]]
The [[Generation 1 continuity family]], which also encompasses the [[Beast Era]]. There are a '''LOT''' of these ones! The [[Vector Prime]] and [[Rhinox (TransTech)|Rhinox]] of [[Axiom Nexus]] posit that the multiverse may have started from a Primax reality, hence the sheer volume of them.

===Alpha universal streams===
*[[Primax 400.05 Alpha]]—the ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 cartoon)|Car Robots]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 488.12 Alpha]]—the ''[[Transformers: Super-God Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 496.22 Alpha]]—the ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 498.1 Alpha]]—the ''[[Beast Wars II: Super Lifeform Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars II]]'' cartoon.<ref>[[Transformers I.Q.|Transformers I.Q. #8]]</ref>
*[[OG World|Primax 785.06 Alpha]]—the ''[[The Transformers (cartoon)#Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers|Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 787.3 Alpha]]—''[[Transformers: The Headmasters (cartoon)|The Headmasters]]'' cartoon.<ref name="ilowtech"/>
*[[Primax 984.17 Alpha]]—''[[The Transformers (cartoon)|The Transformers]]'' cartoon.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Primax 1087.09 Alpha]]—the ''[[Video Challenger]]'' opening of the ''[[Transformers: The Headmasters (cartoon)|Headmasters]]''.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Primax 1097.01 Alpha]]—the Japanese ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)#Japan|Beast Wars]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1108.10 Alpha]]—the ''[[Transformers: Universe (cartoon)|Universe]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1185.04 Alpha]]—the universe introduced in the ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe]]'' episodes "Worlds Without End".<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1298.19 Alpha]]—the ''[[Lio Convoy in Imminent Danger!]]'' film.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

===Beta universal streams===
*[[Primax 092.0 Beta]]—the [[Megavisor]] image of [[Hyperdrive (Turbomaster)|Hyperdrive]] from the [[Skyquake (G1)|Skyquake]] toy.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 094.0 Beta]]—the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#HeroOptimusPrime|Hero Optimus Prime toy]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 095.0 Beta]]—the [[Bulletbike (G2)|Bulletbike]] toy's bio.<ref name="ilowtech">"[[I, Lowtech]]"</ref>
*[[Primax 096.0 Beta]]—the home to many [[Unreleased toy|unreleased]] ''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)|Generation 2]]'' toys.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 109.0 Beta]]—the original home of ''[[Transformers: Alternity|Alternity]]'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Convoy Vibrant Red]].<ref>[[From Here to Alternity]]</ref>
*[[Primax 185.0 Beta]]—the [[Decepto-Pack]] toy.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 196.0 Beta]]—the first wave ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' bios.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 308.13 Beta]]—the [[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (pack-in manga)|''Henkei! Henkei!'' pack-in manga]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 513.25 Beta]]—the ''[[Transformers GT: Mission GT-R (franchise)|Transformers GT: Mission GT-R]]'' toyline.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 603.0 Beta]]—the [[Heroes of Cybertron]] [[Overlord (Masterforce)|Gigatron]] toy.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 700.0 Beta]]—[[Primal Prime]]'s ''Beast Machines'' toy bio.
*[[BT World|Primax 903.0 Beta]]—the ''[[Transformers: Alternators|Binaltech]]'' continuity.<ref>"[[To Mega Therion]]"</ref>
*[[Primax 905.0 Beta]]—the ''[[The Transformers: Binaltech Asterisk|Binaltech Asterisk]]'' continuity.<ref>"[[The World Is Flat!]]"</ref>
*[[Primax 1206.0 Beta]]—the [[Autorooper]] toy and the timeline included with it.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

===Gamma universal streams===
*[[Primax -408.01 Gamma]]—the "[[Shattered Expectations (SG)|Shattered Expectations]]" April Fools' Day comic.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 094.0 Gamma]]—[[The Official Transformers: Generation 2 Annual]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 113.12 Gamma]]—the "[[Mars Attacks: The Transformers]]" comic.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 206.15 Gamma]]—the IDW ''[[Transformers, Beast Wars: The Gathering|Beast Wars]]'' comics.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/> [[Image:BeastWarsRebornMegatronArtwork1.jpg|right|thumb|200px|"By Primus, that's a lot of names."]]
*[[Primax 206.24 Gamma]]—the ''[[Beast Wars Reborn]]'' text story.<ref name=askvectorprimefb>"[[Ask Vector Prime]]" on Facebook</ref>
*[[Primax 208.15 Gamma]]—the "[[Hail and Farewell]]" comic strip.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 209.0 Gamma]]—the ''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]'' universe.<ref>[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club issue 49|BWU Depth Charge magazine bio]]</ref>
*[[Primax 209.20 Gamma]]—the ''[[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (Generations manga)|Henkei! Henkei!]]'' manga in the ''[[Transformers Generations 2009]]'' guidebook.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 290.03 Gamma]]—the Marvel Comics UK [[Earthforce]] continuity.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 302.06 Gamma]]—the [[Dreamwave Generation One continuity|Dreamwave Generation 1 comics]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 388.0 Gamma]]—the ''[[Transformers: Super-God Masterforce (manga)|Super-God Masterforce]]'' manga.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Primax 488.0 Gamma]]—the U.S. comic adaptation of "[[The Big Broadcast of 2006 (issue)|The Big Broadcast of 2006]]".<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 490.0 Gamma]]—the universe introduced in "[[Rhythms of Darkness!]]"<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 504.0 Gamma]]—the ''[[The Beast Within|Beast Within]]'' comic.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 512.5 Gamma]]—the ''[[The Transformers: Regeneration One|Regeneration One]]'' comic.<ref name=completealmanac>''[[Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac]]''</ref>
*[[Cloud World|Primax 514.29 Gamma]]—the ''[[Transformers Cloud|Cloud]]'' continuity.<ref name=completealmanac/>
*[[Primax 514.3 Gamma]]—the IDW ''[[Transformers vs. G.I. Joe]]'' comic series.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 603.0 Gamma]]—the [[Universe CD-ROM|''Universe'' CD-ROM]] comic.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 703.02 Gamma]]—the [[Devil's Due Press]] ''[[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers continuity|G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers]]'' comics.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Primax 703.09 Gamma]]—the doomed universe introduced in [[Dreamwave Armada issue 13|''Armada'' #13]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 704.08 Gamma]]—the "[[Ain't No Rat]]" comic.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 706.05 Gamma]]—the IDW ''[[Hearts of Steel]]'' comics.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 713.31 Gamma]]—the "[[Metrowars]]" guidebook manga.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 798.0 Gamma]]—the ''[[Beast Wars II: Super Lifeform Transformers (manga)|Beast Wars II]]'' manga.<ref name=andromedafb/>
*[[Primax 886.0 Gamma]]—the Marvel ''[[Transformers: The Movie (Marvel comic)|Transformers: The Movie]]'' comic.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 895.0 Gamma]]—the "[[The New Battle!!]]" comic.<ref>[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club issue 49|"Hero" Optimus Prime bio]]</ref>
*[[Primax 903.04 Gamma]]—the Dreamwave ''[[Transformers/G.I. Joe]]'' comics.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 984.0 Gamma]]—the [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|U.S. Marvel ''The Transformers'' comic]].<ref name="witheredhope"/> [[Image:Thefunctionistcouncil.jpg|right|thumb|200px|"So it's unanimous. We find ''[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]]'' guilty."]]
*[[Primax 984.20 Gamma]]—the [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|UK Marvel ''The Transformers'' comic]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 986.13 Gamma]]—the alternate Marvel UK future of "[[Target: 2006]]".<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 994.0 Gamma]]—the [[Transformers: Generation 2 (Fleetway)|Fleetway ''Generation 2'' comic]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1103.12-R Gamma]]—the ''Beast Machines'' universe glimpsed in "[[Worlds Collide, Part 4 of 4]]".<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1005.19 Gamma]]—the [[IDW Generation 1 continuity|IDW Generation 1 comics]].<ref>"[[Timeless]]"</ref>
*[[Primax 1008.15 Gamma]]—the ''Comic Bun Bun'' [[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (Comic Bun Bun)|''Henkei! Henkei!'' manga]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Functionist Universe|Primax 1114.26 Gamma]]—the [[Functionist Universe]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1285.0 Gamma]]—The "[[Plague of the Insecticons!]]" comic.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

===Delta universal streams===
*[[Primax 988.0 Delta]]—the bookend segments of Season 5 of ''[[The Transformers (cartoon)|The Transformers]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

===Epsilon universal streams===
*[[Primax -408.24 Epsilon]]—the ''[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]'' continuity.<ref>[[Aquarius (SG)|SG Aquarius]]'s bio</ref>
*[[Primax 207.0 Epsilon]]—the Fun Publications ''[[Transformers: Classics|Classics]]'' continuity.<ref name="witheredhope">"[[Withered Hope]]"</ref>
*[[Primax 509.28 Epsilon]]—the ''[[Transformers: Wings Universe|Wings Universe]]'' continuity.<ref>"[[Invasion: Epilogue]]"</ref>
*[[Primax 797.18 Epsilon]]—the 3H [[Beast Era]] continuity.<ref name=andromedafb/>
*[[Primax 905.22 Epsilon]]—the "[[Descent into Evil]]" continuity.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

===Zeta universal streams===
*[[Primax 208.06 Zeta]]—the alternate universe mentioned in [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]]'s ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Sourcebook|Beast Wars Sourcebook]]'' profile.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 290.0 Zeta]]—the ''[[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers: Zone (story page)|Zone]]'' story pages.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 304.25-P3 Zeta]]—the unused [[Pretender]] concept art seen in ''[[Transformers Generations]]''.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 308.0 Zeta]]—the ''[[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers -Visualize-|Henkei! Henkei!]]'' magazine shorts.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 485.27 Zeta]]—the draft script of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 489.0 Zeta]]—the ''[[Transformers Comic-Magazin]]''.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 785.13 Zeta]]—the [[Letters page (Marvel UK)|Marvel UK letters page]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 807.11 Zeta]]—the timeline included with the ''[[Kiss Players/15 Go! Go! Compilation|Kiss Players/15 Go! Go!]]'' compilation.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1104.30-TW Zeta]]—the "[[Collect and Save]]" short story.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1291.0 Zeta]]—the "[[Another Time & Place]]" text story.<ref name="witheredhope"/>
*[[Primax "whatever" Zeta]]—the [[Big Looker Storybook]]s.<ref>[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club issue 61|Hot Shot's Bot Thoughts]]</ref>

===Eta universal streams===
*[[Primax 085.0 Eta]]—''[[The Battle for Planet Earth]]'' audio stories.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 406.3 Eta]]—the ''[[Transformers: Kiss Players (radio drama)|Kiss Players]]'' radio drama.<ref name=todiegame/>

===Theta universal streams===
*[[Primax 614.21 Theta]]—the "[[Prevenge]]" script reading. <ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 698.20 Theta]]—the "[[Visitations]]" script reading.<ref name=almanacII/>

===Iota universal streams===
*[[Primax 514.23 Iota]]—the ''[[Transformers × Evangelion]]'' online text story.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/> [[Image:N64 Optimus Primal.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Maybe there's a Primax where this doesn't look dated.]]

===Kappa universal streams===
*[[Primax 399.19 Kappa]]—the ''[[Duel Fight Transformers Beast Wars: Beast Warriors' Strongest Decisive Battle]]'' video game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 610.17 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: War for Cybertron (games)|Transformers: War for Cybertron]]'' video games.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 700.12-N4 Kappa]]—the Nintendo 64 ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)|Beast Wars Transmetals]]'' video game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 700.12-SP Kappa]]—the PlayStation ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (PS)|Beast Wars Transmetals]]'' video game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1003.30 Kappa]]—the Japanese PlayStation 2 ''[[The Transformers (PS2)|The Transformers]]'' video game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1015.06 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Devastation]]'' video game.<ref name=editorfb>"[[Axiom Nexus News Editor]]"</ref>
*[[Primax 1086.0 Kappa]]—''[[The Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth]]'' video game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1099.01-N6 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)|Beast Wars Metals 64]]'' video game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1099.01-PS Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (PS)|Transformers: Beast Wars Metals: Clash! Intense Battle]]'' video game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1108.12 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers G1: Awakening]]'' mobile game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1212.13 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers Legends (mobile game)|Transformers Legends]]'' mobile game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1286.3 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy|Mystery of Convoy]]'' video game.<ref name=todiegame/>

===Lambda universal streams===
*[[Primax 487.0 Lambda]]—the ''Grand Scramble Team'' art from the [[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers 2010 (story page)|''Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers 2010'' story pages]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 613.28 Lambda]]—the convention exclusive cover of ''[[My Little Pony|My Little Pony Micro-Series]]'' #5.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 708.10-R Lambda]]—the retail-exclusive cover of [[All Hail Megatron issue 1|''All Hail Megatron'' #1]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 903.0-M Lambda]]—the ''[[Machine Wars: Transformers|Machine Wars]]'' [[Starscream (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Starscream]] art from ''[[Genesis: The Art of Transformers]]''.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1104.10 Lambda]]—the cover of [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II issue 3|''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II'' #3]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Primax 1186.0 Lambda]]—the cover of [[Funeral for a Friend!|#26]] of the Marvel ''[[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|The Transformers]]'' series.<ref name=completealmanac/>

==[[Quadwal]]==
A [[Transformers timeline|strangely divergent continuity family]].

*[[Quadwal -3760.925 Theta]]—the world in which [[Jim Sorenson (Animated)|Jim Sorenson]] and [[Bill Forster (Animated)|Bill Forster]] were recruited to write the ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac|AllSpark Almanac]]''.<ref name=almanac/><ref>The origin date of September 25, -3760 is also a reference; September 25, 3760 B.C.E. is the first day of the [[wikipedia:Hebrew calendar|Hebrew calendar]] That answers THAT question.</ref>
*[[Quadwal 1215.15 Epsilon]]—a world where the [[GoBots (franchise)|GoBots]] was more successful than [[The Transformers (franchise)|The Transformers]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

==[[Rovio (universal cluster)|Rovio]]==
The [[Angry Birds Transformers (mobile game)|''Angry Birds'' continuity family]].

*[[Rovio 914.25 Kappa]]—the ''[[Angry Birds Transformers (mobile game)|Angry Birds Transformers]]'' mobile game.<ref name=completealmanac/>

==[[Tyran]]==
The [[Live-action film series|live-action film continuity family]].

[[Image:AOEOptimusRidingGrimlock.jpg|right|thumb|250px|The timeline that makes that dollar, y'all (''MOTHER****ING MONEY'')]]

*[[Tyran 207.28 Gamma]]—the IDW movie comics.<ref name=completealmanac/>
*[[Tyran 208.28 Gamma]]—the alternate Titan Magazines timeline started by "[[Transformers Comic issue 9|Twilight's Last Gleaming]]".<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Tyran 307.27 Zeta]]—the world of ''[[Transformers: Ghosts of Yesterday|Ghosts of Yesterday]]''.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Tyran 407.1 Beta]]—the world of the movie toyline's [[Tech Spec]]s.<ref name=todiegame/>
*[[Tyran 509.12 Zeta]]—''[[Revenge of the Fallen: The Junior Novel]]''.<ref name=completealmanac/>
*[[Tyran 509.28 Kappa]]—the ''[[Autobot Stronghold]]'' game.<ref name=andromedafb/>
*[[Tyran 511.0 Kappa]]—the ''[[Victory Is Sweet]]'' game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Tyran 607.07 Kappa]]—the ''[[Capture the Cube]]'' online game.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Tyran 609.08 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (Glu)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' mobile game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Tyran 609.22 Iota]]—the [[Burger King]] ''[[Transform Your Way]]'' website.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Tyran 609.23-PX Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' PS3 game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Tyran 609.23-XP Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' PC video game.<ref name=completealmanac/>
*[[Tyran 611.14 Kappa]]—the ''[[Dark of the Moon (video games)|Transformers: Dark of the Moon]]'' video games from Activision.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Tyran 611.28 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (mobile game)|Transformers: Dark of the Moon]]'' mobile game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Tyran 614.19 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Age of Extinction (mobile game)|Transformers: Age of Extinction]]'' mobile game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Tyran 707.04 Delta]]—the [[Live-action film series|live-action ''Transformers'' films]]<ref name="witheredhope"/>
*[[Tyran 1211.03 Theta]]—the world of [[Transformers: The Ride – 3D]].<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

==[[Uniend]]==
[[File:PrimeTS-Autobots.jpg|right|thumb|250px|"This is getting confusing. Why don't we call our universe 'Universe A' and this universe 'Universe B'?" <br> "Hey! Why can't we be Universe A?"]]

The [[Aligned continuity family]].

*[[Uniend 312.0 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers Online]]'' game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Uniend 610.23 Zeta]]—the Aligned novel series begun by ''[[Transformers: Exodus|Exodus]]''.<ref name=andromedafb>"[[Andromeda - Axiom Nexus News Reporter]]"</ref>
*[[Uniend 713.01 Alpha]]—the ''[[Triple Combination: Transformers Go! (cartoon)|Go!]]'' cartoon.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Uniend 812.21 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Fall of Cybertron|Fall of Cybertron]]'' video game.<ref name=completealmanac/>
*[[Uniend 911.05 Alpha]]—the ''[[Transformers: Prime (cartoon)|Prime]]'' cartoon continuity.<ref name=completealmanac/>
*[[Uniend 1012.30 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Prime - The Game]]''<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Uniend 1214.19 Kappa]]—the ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (mobile game)|Robots in Disguise]]'' mobile game.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
{{--}}

==[[Viron]]==
[[File:Fortress Maximus Koji Tai.jpg|right|upright=1.2|thumb|"Viron 90... no, this isn't working, Koji. Just write down we're Earth-1."]]
The [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'' continuity family]].

*[[Viron 102.0 Beta]]—the [[Optimus Primal/toys|Air Attack Optimus Primal]] toy.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Viron 403.0 Beta]]—the [[Dreadwind (RID)|Dreadwind]] and [[Smokejumper]] toys.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Viron 704.08 Gamma]]—the "[[Ultra Magnus...to the Rescue?]]" comic.<ref name=completealmanac/>
*[[Viron 704.31 Epsilon]]—the "[[Shell Game]]" comic.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Viron 901.8 Alpha]]—the 2001 ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 cartoon)|Robots in Disguise]]'' cartoon.<ref name=TransformersIQ/>
*[[Viron 903.0 Beta]]—the Sam's Club-exclusive release of [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Optimus Prime]].<ref name=andromedafb/>
*[[Viron 1103.12 Gamma]]—the home of the ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 franchise)|Universe]]'' Spy Changers seen in "[[Worlds Collide, Part 4 of 4]]".<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>

==[[Xobitor]]==
The [[Robotix|''Robotix'' continuity family]].
*[[Xobitor 286.0 Gamma]]—the ''Robotix'' comic.<ref name=almanacII/>
*[[Xobitor 1085.06 Alpha]]—the ''Robotix'' cartoon.<ref name=almanacII/>

==[[Yayayarst]]==
The [[Go-Bots continuity family|''Go-Bots'' continuity family]].
*[[Yayayarst 086.0 Beta]]—the world of ''[[First Transformers]]''.<ref name=askvectorprimefb/>
*[[Yayayarst 201.11 Beta]]—the world of ''[[1-2-3 Transformers]]''.<ref name=almanacII/>

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

[[Category:Alternity]]
[[Category:Animated]]
[[Category:Lists]]
[[Category:Timelines]]
[[Category:TransTech]]
[[Category:Universes| ]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-13T16:07:58Z

Lush City: /* Continuity Stream Bullshit */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
===Walky Calls It===
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

===Epilogue: It's all over but the crying===
:This was supposed to be a short reponse to Lush City, but it quickly grew, and as it did so, I began to re-evaluating my initial opinion on this matter. Bear with me through this wall of text, won't you please?

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>clears throat* I think part of the reason some many of the editors on this wiki, including myself, have grown to resent GoBots so much is because of the mass amount of bullshit that is generated every time they're discussed. This discussion grew more in a day than most others do in a week; even big, huge drawn-out arguments like [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|the Grand Galvatron fiasco]] that have reached an ''ungodly'' length pale in comparison to this one, and there are several other GoBots discussions just like this one. You know what they all have in common? They ''NEVER. GET. ANYWHERE''. This exact discussion has been rehashed several times over the course of the past 6 years or so, and I imagine that's pretty tiresome for the people who have been here to each and every massive GoBots bitchfest unfold one after the other. Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even ''begin'' to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant.

:When we first starting mentioning the GoBots and making pages to discuss their relevence to Transformers, it was like taking a puppy we found on the street and bringing him into our house. He was so cute and harmless, how could we ''not'' let him in? So we fed him and played with him and took care of him. As we did so, that cute little puppy slowly but surely grew into a vicious 80 pound behemoth that had a trail of destruction following it wherever it went. It may be the cutest dog ever, but it's harassing the neighbors and covering the house in fecal matter. Not only that, but it ate the sofa. It's more trouble than it's worth.

:Dog <s>metaphors</s> similes aside, seeing this discussion has really changed my tune regarding Go-Bots. It's fun to have it, yes, but not fun enough to justify the massive bitchfests that take place every time someone tries to discuss what the length and scope of GoBots coverage should be. When Walky said he was ending this argument, I don't think he was just talking about this one particular instance of the debate that took place over the last 24 hours so much as the entirety of the various GoBots arguments over the past six years. And perhaps it's for the best; it seems that the inclusion GoBots on {{SITENAME}} has brought nothing but suffering. I think we should really only be covering GoBots stuff from official Transformers fiction, and if we're honest, Renegade Rhetoric no longer falls into that category. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)

{{note|Somewhere around this point, I remembered that Walky had already kinda-sorta ended the debate. (I say "kinda-sorta" because it continued on in spite of this to some extent.). I took a look at what I'd written, said to myself "Well, shit. I gotta do ''something'' with that." So I slapped this note on here and posted the whole kit and kaboodle onto the community portal, relevance be damned. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)}}

:I get what you are saying, but does that make GoBots the problem, or the fighting? Even so, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. We come together, debate, and reason out the best course of action, then keep on it until the situation changes and we come to a new consensus. That's exactly what a healthy Parliamentary body should do. When RR came up we discussed it and came to a decision, what I was showing concern about was Walky using judgment calls to prerserve demographic integrity, it felt a lot like there is an image of who this wiki is for, and that it would be enforced despite the actual editor/userbase. The idea that a wiki, or any community is served by the people instead of the other way around is a dangerous precedent so I am concerned of what will happen with future "culture clashes." [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:41, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I say leave tomorrow's worries to tomorrow. We'll handle them when we get to them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:16, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::You make a good point, Lush City. Yeah, we ''will'' have to get together and lay down the new rules for this or whatever, but it's best if we give everyone a little time to simmer down and take everything in before we do so. This will eventually all be worked out in good time. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:24, 8 January 2016 (EST)

how unfair do i have to make this place for lush city to leave --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:32, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Let's not be overly harsh. We shouldn't make people feel like they are unwelcomed unless they are being purposefully offensive, or disagreeable for its own sake. Or are outright breaking rules. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:49, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:: I am being exactly harsh enough. I'm pretty sure I kind of said to end all this shit because it's strangling the fucking wiki to death! Being able to put a foot down like that is WHY WE HAVE ADMINS. But sure, by all means, let's argue GoBots for the sixteenth billion time and continue to alienate everyone, because having someone even nominally in charge is fascism i guess. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Isn't Lush City the guy who argued that IDW somehow wasn't G1? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:20, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'm sorry that I came off as disrespectful, that was not my intent. I just wanted to say that so long as people are able to abide by administrative decisions, and respective the of the hierarchy, I bare no ill will towards them. I didn't mean my statement to be seen as an attack towards you, or an attempt to undermine your authority. It came off that way though, so I apologize again. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (EST)

===Questions and self reflection===
So, Walky said basically that I'm the problem, or part of it. And I don't want to be. I've got a lot of energy and I find wiki editing a relaxing way to unwind. I like puzzling through the connections and figuring out those ah ha moments when I feel like I can glimpse into the author's head and guess what they were thinking. So. How do I use that to be useful? I've done thousands of edits since I signed up and I really thought most of them were welcome and appropriate. Please, someone, point me in the right direction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:All I can offer is the same advice from our [[Ulchtar]] discussion: "''Be helpful, don't just be busy.''" I mean this as helpful criticism, but you do seem to confuse the two. Above, when you tried to call attention to Foffy the Sheep's value by saying, "''Look how many contributions he makes a day!''", even Foffy pointed out most of that was just adding links. Valid contributions, no doubt, but it isn't what makes someone a VIP contributor. I've been here since 2006. I created many of the original G1 character pages, filled out the fiction sections for every Mini-Con in the Armada cartoon and every secondary character in ''Headmasters'', but I still consider myself a mid-level contributor at best.
:Part of the problem is you came in during the AVP flurry of activity, which wasn't a good example of how the Wiki typically operates. Moving pages back and forth, renaming articles, votes on content...these used to be extremely rare events around here, once every six months or so. So what you might have seen as standard, day-to-day activity here was really a rare hassle becoming increasingly more common and grating on the nerves of the admins and long-time contributors without you even knowing it.
:I haven't read through your contributions section, so I don't know what besides AVP you like to contribute. I know some of the fiction sections have become drastically out of date. With so many contributors focused on using AVP or cleaning up after it, pages like Rodimus's IDW appearances haven't been updated in nearly two years! I routinely troll the character stubs section linked on the first page to find things to do. Depending on your preference, there's also Images Needed and Wanted Pages to create linked on the front page, too.
:Only other advice I'd offer is, for the moment, work more on contributing to the Wiki in its current format, instead of questioning or trying to change the format itself. That's my advice. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 18:50, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I've found that another good way to help is by going through [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:LonelyPages Orphaned pages list] and linking them to the relevant articles, or making sure that the disambiguation pages mention every applicable character. Some of the character disambig pages are missing links to their Angry Birds counterparts, and I suspect that the same may be true for some of the Kreon versions of characters. There's also [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki:Community_Portal/Underlinked this] list of articles that aren't linked to enough; it might be slightly outdated, but it's pretty useful.<br>I thought maybe my experience as a fairly new editor might be helpful to you; I hope this turns out to be the case.<br>(Side note: I was unaware that moving articles and such used to be a rare occurence; I'll try to keep that in mind and avoid such things whenever possible.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)

==User:TAZ==
Someone should probably ban [[Special:Contributions/TAZ|User:TAZ]]. For whatever reason, he seems to really hate [[:File:DonMurphy.jpg]], and has gone out of his way to either blank the page or removes links to it. (I waited about half an hour before posting this in case he was hoping to get a kick out of someone mentioning him.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:44, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Done! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 18:48, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:23, 7 January 2016 (EST)

== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnoxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Marvel thing is a unique case that at least is relevant to character write ups—it tells readers that the Marvel UK stuff mixed into the Marvel US stuff doesn't count. (Of course, this only applies to articles that actually have sections for the original Marvel comics.) The text in the notes could stand to be trimmed down, though. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Do you have some other examples of unnecessary notes we could discuss specifically? I caught the 2001 Car Robots note you mentioned from [[universal greeting]], and I agree it's pointless unless there's actually an RiD vs. CR distinction to be made. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::Wings, Classics, RG1 on pages without the continuity they're referring to. Ask Vector Prime. I'm bringing this up now because we need to develop a better way of vetting templates that are theoretically going to be used on many pages. One or two "yes" reponses on some hidden talk page most people don't notice shouldn't be used as a community-wide consensus on things that dramatically alter the reading experience across multiple pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And looking at the other stuff we have, [[:Template:Notecmn]] could easily be made as part of the actual prose and flow more naturally that way, for example. ("In a divergent timeline, blahblah"). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:17, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And there's [[:Template:Notemoviebio]], which explains what is a regular occurrence in all of Transformers fiction for no real reason. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:19, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::A similar one is [[:Template:Notetitantlg]], which I tried to make pointless when we overhauled the movie character pages a while back and which I think we ditched ''most'' uses of, but is still out there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Not quite the same situation, but I'd like to chime in that I'm not a big fan of [[:Template:ongoing]]. Most of the time, editors completely forget to include it on the appropriate sections, it reiterates something that's obvious ("if there's information missing here, you should add it.") and it's a note that only gets put up so that it can be eventually be taken down. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:27, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I agree that it's quite useless when we already have stub templates. Either information is missing or it isn't and people just leave it up on pages that really don't need it because it's not that noticeable. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:33, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Ehhhhhn. I'm willing to let "ongoing" live, as, well, there's a TON of "dead" fictions and only a few currently-updating ones, and letting people know which ones are likely to actually ''continue'' and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative. "Stub" can mean "it came out already and no-one's bothered yet", which is... different than "this cuts off because the scheduled continuation hasn't come out yet". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:12, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::Also, if you find yourself overburdened with certain tasks, don't be afraid to ask for help. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:08, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Thanks for taking care of the CR note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::No prob. As for the RG1 note, I agree that it would look nicer as a single line of text. I'm having difficulty reducing it in length without leaving out something crucial though. I'm putting it on the back-burner for now, but I'll keep it in mind. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:18, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Tried cutting it down a bit. The G2 bit was redundant. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::Ah yes. Much better. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:48, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Yeah, that's equally informative, but also far less intrusive. Nice work, Saix -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I just wanna say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we have too many goddamned templates. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Two templates for discussion: [[:Template:TransformersComicMagazin]] and [[:Template:GIJoeTransformersfiction]]. Necessary or not? I feel like the former states what's already obvious by the fact that it's in its own section ("Comic-Magazin is not Marvel"), while I dunno about the latter. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Transformers Magazin could probably be done without. The {Gi joe transformers fiction} one, on the other hand, should probably be kept. With the way we use the {noteukonly} and generally treat the US and UK comics, I feel that we kinda need to point out "hey, unlike just about everything else from Marvel US, ''this'' doesn't actually fit into the Marvel UK 'verse." -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Joe one is terrible. It's just plopped into the middle of fiction write-ups with no specification as to what text it refers to. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I can understand the ''purpose'', but the execution just doesn't work at all. And I don't think it belongs on the issue pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2016 (EST)

I don't do much fiction-section work anymore, but if I can identify part of the problem ''with the fiction itself''... unlike most franchises, TFs has a metric fuckton of "major" divergent splinter timelines. I mean, how many different Marvel G1 comic timeline spinoffs do we have now that don't actually relate to each other? It can be difficult at first look of a page to tell the difference between a series of proper, one-timeline sequel-series and, well, the clusterfuck that is post-Marvel-G1-related stuff branching out like a hydra. So I'm loathe to just run with the "well everyone reading thew wiki should know this" mentality.<br>
So, can see ''why'' the templates began, but when we started getting more and more branches? A bit out of hand. And worse, it's not quite a thing the base wiki organization tools are good at adapting and making obvious. (Frankly I find it tricky to tell sometimes the difference between a <nowiki>===</nowiki>-subsection and a <nowiki>====</nowiki>-subsection, but that's another quibble for later).<br>
I think a good amount of this can be mitigated with some creative rewriting of the sections' openings, "ten years after the battle of Klo" or whatnot. And certainly that doesn't even need to be brought up if it's just a one-off page of a piece of minor technology from one issue of a spinoff. But for larger pages with a buttload of timeline-fragments?<br>
We might want to look into collapsible Notes. Just a single template that can be adapted not just for this, but, well, for anything. Whack it up top, collapsed, have it say "Continuity Note: (more)" (not as a default), then people can click on it and see "well this continuity branches off from blardeeblar and has no relation to blardeeblar". This way the clutter is minimal, the information on our confusing mess of fiction is right at the fingertips.<br>
Just a thought.--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:31, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:This sounds useful. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:47, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I love this idea. Collapsable notes could solve a lot of the problems we've been having with the templates as of late. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I just took a brief look at the voiceactor template, since that does basically what I'm looking at, and even that template's workings are beyond my ability to understand and adapt into a collapsible Note. So um. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::It depends how you want it to work. Something like <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1|text 2}}</nowiki> to produce:
<div class="tt1_graynote">text 1 <span class="ocreditspan">text 2</span></div>
::Or just <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1}}</nowiki> and
<div class="tt1_graynote"><span class="ocreditspan">text 1</span></div>
::It wouldn't be difficult to knock either of those templates up --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::Expanding off of what Emvee posted here, I've worked up a collapsible note template which can display a custom header, custom visible text and hideable text that is either custom or derived from a preset name. The first draft, examples and documentation can be found here: [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox/Template:CollapseNote]]. All critiques are welcome. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 18:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
::::Is there a way to put that in a gray box so it matches with the rest of our Notes? I think this has legs. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:49, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::::D'oh! There is. In fact, I actually did have the box but the CSS for it is only available in my personal CSS file at the moment. I'll go integrate that into the template itself for now, then once this is approved maybe it can be moved to a site wide CSS file to reduce template clutter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:40, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Okay, the CSS is now included in the template so users besides myself can see the gray box. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I love it. Nice work, Tigerpaw. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:37, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::Seconded, good stuff. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:16, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'll stick the css in the common file when everyone's happy. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:29, 10 January 2016 (EST)

== More Prominence for IDW ==

I'm going to propose a change, because the above discussion reminded me of something I find annoying -- the position of IDW in the Fiction sections. At this point, I believe IDW is the longest running continuous fiction in Transformers history. Yet while the 30 year cartoon and Marvel Comic are easy to pick out due to their position at the top or their multitude of subcategories, IDW is typically found near the bottom of the list, nestled in between Japanese micro-continuities, Sticker Adventures and, god help us, ''The Beast Within''.<br><br>
Is there a better configuration we could work with? I'd be supportive of a "Major Fiction" and "Minor Fiction" breakdown for the traditional "Fiction" section, if we could all peacefully agree to what counts as Major and Minor. Another thought I had was to do away with the ''Ongoing Fiction Template'', and just have "Ongoing Fiction" automatically at the top and "Previous Fiction" underneath.<br><br>
Any of this sound worth looking into more? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:08, 11 January 2016 (EST)
: Absolutely friggin' not, never or ever. Organizing fiction due to perceived prominence is counter to the very spirit this wiki was founded on. (It's also amazingly subjective and would be a headache to argue over indefinitely.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:36, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Wasn't that the point of changing the disambiguation pages though? So that the more prominent stuff was at the top and had pictures to help people? [[User:Omegatron|omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:23, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::That kind of potential slippery-sloping was why I had misgivings about that change in the first place. But Disambig pages are navigation pages, and articles are not, and I have faith that we can recognize the different needs for pages according to their utility and not just make everything the same just because it makes our brains feel superficially happier. But let me put it this way: Imagine Grapple's page. In a "we put IDW first because it's important" world, a dinky subsection in which he appears in the background twice is given precedence over a Big Looker storybook in which he is a major character. IDW isn't always super important to a character's page just because its fiction's gone on a decade! And here's the kicker -- for those folks who've appeared a buttload in IDW, those sections are split off into their own subpages and navigation at the very top of the page leads you right there, effectively already giving everyone this proposed functionality. And without losing the information of real-world chronological release order that levels the canonicity playing field, I might add. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:00, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Right. The disambiguation page thing wasn't something brought up on a whim. It's not a thing I'd propose for any other "type" of page, because disambig pages serve a different purpose than almost every other. That requires some special consideration. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:15, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:No, no, no, no and no, with a side order of no and no for dessert. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:Just throwing this out there as an alternative suggestion to moving the sections around: what do people think of the idea of bolding major sections in the table of contents, so for Optimus you'd end up with something [[:File:Contents bold test.jpg|like this]]. For the sake of preventing arguments we'd reserve it for the really prominent G1 continuities (G1 and BW cartoons, Marvel, IDW and possibly Dreamwave comics), since it's not generally a problem for other continuity families. I'm thinking this could be done very simply in CSS without having to edit a ton of pages, though it would mean that characters with only an IDW fiction section would have it bolded in their contents listing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:30, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::That's got some potential, I think. I don't think single-fiction character with bold in their TOC would be a problem. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:48, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:This ties into an old proposal from way back that I'd also found in my Community Portal re-read, and was brought up on Allspark (and I'd briefly mentioned here recently); the visual differences between subheaders are really quite minimal. It's hard to tell at a look where one continuity-line ends and the other begins. there's got to be something we can do just '''''visually''''' to make these divisions easier to identify by sight. Can we make the header-text for continuity-breaks centered? If we wanna get fancy, can we make a graphic the header? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:47, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Okay, apparently you [[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox:Fiction_header_experiment|CAN center section headers]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Did some experimenting and [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox|found a way to do this]]. Requires a little bit of HTML/CSS inside the header but easily doable I think. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:04, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Since the initial concern, at least, was IDW, can someone sandbox a G1 character with an IDW section to see how that might look? [[Pipes (G1)]] seems like a good candidate, since he's got a good-sized IDW section that also isn't so big it should just be a subpage. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 23:13, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I've grown pretty iffy on using images as headers, honestly. There's a lotta "standalone" timelines that don't really have logos and having only SOME major headers be logo images... ehhhhhn. Might be best to just stick with text, maybe a thin bar above, with a wiki-wide change to a thicker tier-1-header-bar. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:12, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Actually? Second thoughts, no. This would likely start too many arguments. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)

==The Goal Of The Wiki==
(slight editing of something I posted to the Allspark's wiki thread)

A little while back I decided to rummage through the Community Portal archives... from the beginning. The earliest stages, when we were hammering out how to lay out the damn pages, what we should disambiguate by, etc. Saw the suggestions for making information more readily-accessible (character appearance tables, the GO! Box, the navigation templates), the "common wiki" practices we rejected because they just could not apply to this franchise (character infoboxes, for example, thanks to the many many many bodies the characters could have), up through the big move away from Wikia when they started really fucking us over with their ads.

And during that lonnnnng string of arguments with Wikia staff, when we tried (repeatedly) to explain why this "only not-signed-in readers will see the ads so why are you complaining since you don't see the page-ruining ads see this will somehow make money!" thing was utter bullshit...

:''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."''

Re-read that. '''''RE-FUCKING-READ THAT.'''''

The wiki lost that mentality somewhere. At some point in the last few years, the wiki stopped being about the readers, what would make the vast ocean of material accessible and entertaining to them. It became a micro-minutia-based circlejerk. It became editors confusing anal-retentive busywork (based on the strictest interpretation of rules that always were meant to be applied with a slight degree of malleability because our subject matter absolutely HAS to be handled that way) with productive and useful updating. And with the advent of the Facebook AVP, it became "gee now I can make Real Transformers wheeeeee" with even more micro-minutia and bad-faith gaming of the canon policy that was originally meant to give equal space to the obscure so we wouldn't have the "prominence = more deserving" mentality (plus stuff very specifically made to create circumstances to middle-finger policies that have served us well for a decade prior).

Thus, people who've worked for a decade to make the wiki something huge and special and a wiki other fandoms look at and go "holy shit, we need something like this" find themselves frustrated and edging away as the spirit of the whole thing turns into this sour, solipsistic nigh-gatekeepery up-its-own-ass wank festival, especially when certain subjects just won't. Goddamn. STOP.

From one of our newest regulars:

:''"Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant."''

So when I see "hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important" or "why don't we rename every character in the Japanese-fiction writeups to their Japanese names", yeah, I'm gonna respond harsher because it's kind of hit that point where we have to start bringing the hammer down hard to keep this thing even remotely accessible to anyone who isn't fully engaged in the minutia of TFdom.

I think wiki editors (and others) need to stop and have a good think about WHY they're doing what they're doing, and who they're actually doing it for, and, ultimately, if they should actually be doing it.

There's an important difference between "can" and "should", and too many don't see it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:''look i already apologised for the japanese name thing okay''
:Well, said, though, and you've given me something to think about. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:...Yeah, I'm taking exception to this.

:Because of recent events, I wasn't expecting anyone to jump for joy, but this is a bit much. First of all, "''hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important''" is reductive and dismissive to the facts on the table and the argument I presented. IDW being "ongoing fiction" isn't my subjective opinion, it's a fact. It's also the longest running mass-market fiction not only ongoing right now, but also in Transformers history. So I'm not some weebo saying, "I like Japan, so other people must want Japan to be more prominent, too." (no offense, Riptide -- just for the argument) We were discussing a case of ''factual'' prominence, not the "perceived prominence" just inside my own silly head.

:And I don't need ''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."'' repeated back to me because it was you, M "Not lovin' this idea" Sipher I was thinking of, saying those very words, which made me think this was a good idea.

:Maybe we have different ideas about what casual readers are, but I think of them as new/returning fans who came here because of some ongoing fiction they just saw, and might like to learn more about. If they're watching ''Robots in Disguise'' or ''Rescue Bots'', that's cool -- most of those character pages are traceable by (RID) or (RB) disambigs, which is simple enough to figure out. And their Fiction box sections are (mostly) minimal enough to glance over and find what you wanted.

:But what about the comics? Well, first they have to know IDW is Generation 1, which isn't exactly on the cover of the comics. Then they have to know the Fiction section on a character's page is organized by release date. You and I know that, but is that rule actually posted in a FAQ somewhere so we could expect a casual reader to know it? The way Sunbow and Marvel subdivide on most pages, a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking the most prominent stuff is ''already'' on the top. And even assuming they're visiting the Wiki on a full-screen computer and not a mobile device, for the 1987 guys or earlier "IDW Generation 1 continuity" is likely going to be "below the fold". And if you made it to the end of this paragraph thinking TL;DR, imagine the casual reader going through this in real time. THAT was who I was thinking of when I suggested the Ongoing Fiction content that the casual reader might be looking for when they come here ''be easier to find somehow''.

:I'm not ''trying'' to throw your words back at you, M Sipher, but again it honestly was a post you made this week defending the Ongoing Fiction Template that made me think of this. You said, "''letting people know which ones are likely to actually continue and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative''". But the current razor-thin, World's Smallest Template Note doesn't really accomplish that. A casual reader may stumble across it by accident, if they squint, or they'll find it if they're already looking for it, but that's it. Floating Ongoing Fiction to the top of the Fiction sections negates the need for the template, lets new readers find what they were most likely looking for more easily, and those Fictions can just as easily be shuffled back down into 'release date order "dead" fiction' once they are no longer ongoing.

:If this was a bad idea, fine. But maybe you could provide me a definition of "casual reader friendly", because obviously my ''WWMSD?'' bracelet doesn't help when I'm too stupid to know the answer. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:09, 12 January 2016 (EST)

::There's a Table of Contents at the top of just about every character page. The wiki software even ''automatically'' makes a TOC if a page has enough subsections. That TOC has "IDW continuity" in it, which links directly to said subsection. Easy.
::Your proposal is nothing but arguments waiting to happen over what's "more important", to become more arguments over which "more important" fiction takes prominenece over the other "more important" (comics or cartoons?) with no actual ''benefit''. It is furniture-shuffling. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 13:19, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Not to put words in Sipher's mouth, but I don't think the main idea he's putting across is ''really'' about your proposal, Xaaron, you've just said it at a moment in time in which we are seeing a lot of what Sipher describes (but trying to dub something "more important" ''will'' lead to arguments - I remember way back when when people would complain we were putting the Marvel comic ahead of the cartoon). To repost something I've also said on the Allspark - which I don't consider to relate to your proposal, Xaaron - I have been saying for a long time in private conversation what Sipher is saying now, and several months ago, I tried to explain how we're basically responsible for breeding this attitude into our readers. It's the same attitude that caused the AVP brouhaha - we are seeing editors now openly state that the wiki has been a gateway to a lot of this stuff for them, and that they have fixated on the minutiae and the continuity-fondling, which is such a small part of what Transformers, and the wiki, is about that it's the wrong lesson to come away with. Wiki projects ATTRACT those with mindsets focused on categorization, organization, and pattern-observation. It took years before we had editors who were able to reconcile that way of thinking with our "and also fun!" approach, but they now exist, and are more interested in trying to make sure all the headers are precisely the same, that everything is in exactly the right continuity-order and header-structure and category, that all the disambigs are exact - that absolutely everything fits into its little imaginary box, and that nothing breaks the rules by coming out of its box unless there's a seventeen-week debate about it first. ORGANIZATION IS IMPORTANT, but - with the greatest of actual respect to our new editors, because it is thankless hugging busywork and its impressive that you're dedicated to it - as Sipher says, this "moving of the furniture" is all that newer-guard editors actually seem to want to do, or to be capable of doing. It's very, very easy to paste a one-or-two sentence nugget of information from AVP into the wiki, which is why so many people do it and why it got so out of control - but you don't see anyone falling over themselves to add Spacewarp's Log stuff, even before the two-week delay, because it's not presented in nugget form, it's a piece of prose that you'd actually have to - shock, horror - read and summarize, and - oh christ no - it's NOT full of references to pre-existing things so you can't just paste it into existing articles or throw the AVP stub template in. When - just for a recent example - I can go to the article of a major character like Ironhide or Thundercracker and still find tons of material that needs filling in, that says "it doesn't matter that it's been ten years, there is a lot more important work to do than making sure that header is a level 2 or a level 3 one." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::I just want to be clear that people who take the time to do "busywork" like, say, fixing links so they no longer lead to a redirect page are ''unquestionably welcome to''. That's good, that has a tangible benefit to our wiki (reducing server load). That kind of "busywork" is ''absolutely'' okay. It's the seemingly-endless stream of talks about reorganizing hundreds of pages, arguments over disambigs, and yeah, the "easy" trivia-nugget work that's grinding here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:01, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:I get the concern over the AVP-inspired editors, and even counseled Giggidy about this very issue above. In hindsight, I probably should've waited for the dust to settle more on the GoBots matter before suggesting something similar for different reasons, but like I said, the idea was sparked by the above discussion about the Ongoing Template.
:And I completely agree that a Major/Minor Fiction split would likely lead to more arguments than benefits, which is why I also proposed Ongoing/Not Ongoing. That's completely binary and objective. It's not subject to debate over which fiction is "More Ongoing" than another.
:I agree that the IDW links above the main character images remove any need for my proposal...for the characters who have them. My concern rested with characters like Jazz or Soundwave who do not have IDW subpages, and that continuity is 21 or 24 listings down on their Fiction TOCs, nestled between things like ''Q-Robo'' and ''Henkei! Henkei!''. But, as I believe Chip suggested on the Allspark, a way to resolve all this is to just be more lenient with allowing IDW subpages in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:31, 12 January 2016 (EST)

==Continuity Stream Bullshit==
I suggested this on the Allspark, and there's some momentum for it so I'll put it here.

As M Sipher said above, arbitrary furniture movement is bad. That said, all the continuity stream minutae is even worse, and serves only to bloat our pagecount with duplicated information in articles that will only ever be stubs forever. Why do both [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and [[The Transformers (issue)]] exist? Or [[Marvel Comics continuity]] if you think the continuity is more important than what the Universal Stream indicator actually decodes to, although if there weren't significant opposition I'd argue that since the stream encoding to a piece of fiction is a 1:1 mapping that we should respect that directly.

Since a Universal Stream page will not contain any useful information other than its actual stream indicator (and VERY occasionally some detail such as "this universe is destroying another one"), I'd like to propose that all universal stream pages either be redirected to the actual single piece of fiction that the stream indicator decodes to, or to the Continuity timeline page that best describes it - and somewhere on **that** page we try and find a place for the universal stream number. Perhaps in the same fashion we originally handled alternate names - directly below the introductory paragraph, in bold?

If this causes problems, feel free to disregard... but I've heard enough discontent about the matter and there's been enough push for it there that I feel confident enough to put my next foot forward on this happening. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:32, 13 January 2016 (EST)

My proposal is that rather than stream pages, major continuities would all get pages. a Marvel g1 universe page, a sunbow cartoon universe a Classicsverse page and so on. Then, stream numbers used in universe would be redirect to those pages. Minor streams would get redirected to the current list pages we have now; AVP additions to minor streams would go in notes on the works main page. (For example, Ulchtar would go in the notes of that videogame)[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:51, 13 January 2016 (EST)

I just noted that the already existing Universal Stream pages could be converted into continuity pages in some instances , http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Classicsverse could be simply renamed "Classics Continuity/Universe" for example[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 11:07, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Cloud World

2016-01-13T16:04:17Z

Lush City:

[[File:Transformers Cloud GOT ep 1.jpg|thumb|300px|We're like the TransTech! Except g1 for some reason!]]

'''Cloud World''' (クラウド世界 ''Kuraudo Sekai''), also designated '''Primax 514.29 Gamma''', is a world populated by the [[Autobot]]s, the space-time guardians who live in [[Metropolis]], and the [[Decepticon]]s, a group who live in the [[Underground (Cloud)|Underground]].

==Fiction==
===''Cloud''===
{{locationstub}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
During the events of the [[Universe War]], the Cloud World Autobots fought the [[Hytherion]] alongside the [[Alternity]].

[[Vector Prime]] thought it possible that the [[Chronarchitect]] had a hand in Primax 514.29 Gamma. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}

===''TransTech''===
[[Optimus Prime (TransTech)|High Chancellor Optimus Prime]] of [[Nexus 208.0 Epsilon]], political leader of his reality's Cybertron, forged partnerships with Cloud World and [[Planicron|Flaternity]] as part of his efforts to address [[Invasion (issue)|dire changes]] in the balance of the [[multiverse]]. {{storylink|Rook - Axiom Nexus News: Investigative Journalist}}

After his ordeal in [[Axiom Nexus]] at the hands of [[Sideways (Armada)|Sideways]], Vector Prime spent a few decades recovering throughout the multiverse, including some time consulting for the Autobots of Cloud World.

Thanks to the [[Shroud]], the TransTechs lost contact with the entire multiverse, including the Autobots of Cloud World. Vector Prime hoped that they would be able to continue their mission unencumbered by the Shroud. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime}}

==Notes==
* Cloud World is the universe of ''[[Transformers Cloud]]'' fiction. Its [[universal stream]] designation, given in ''[[Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac|The Complete AllSpark Almanac]]'', comes from the release date of "[[TFC-A01]]".

[[Category:Cloud locations]]
[[Category:TransTech locations]]
[[Category:Universes]]

Primax 512.5 Gamma

2016-01-13T15:58:32Z

Lush City:

[[File:Regeneration One 80-5 art.jpg|thumb|200px|Only the fourth Marvel G1 Comics sequel, 6 more and the next one is free!]]
'''Primax 512.5 Gamma''' is a universe in the [[Primax]] universal cluster. It is a tangent timeline of [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]].

==Fiction==
===''Regeneration One''===
{{locationstub}}

===''The AllSpark Almanac''===
[[Primax 207.0 Epsilon]]'s destruction left a quantum vacuum that was quickly filled up by Primax 512.5 Gamma. {{Storylink|Transformers Animated: The Complete AllSpark Almanac|The Complete AllSpark Almanac}}

==Notes==
*Primax 512.5 Gamma is the [[universal stream]] designation of the ''[[The Transformers: Regeneration One|Regeneration One]]'' comic series. Its specifications come from the publishing date of "[[Counterpoint]]".

[[Category:Regeneration One locations]]
[[Category:Universes]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-13T15:52:57Z

Lush City: /* Continuity Stream Bullshit */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
===Walky Calls It===
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

===Epilogue: It's all over but the crying===
:This was supposed to be a short reponse to Lush City, but it quickly grew, and as it did so, I began to re-evaluating my initial opinion on this matter. Bear with me through this wall of text, won't you please?

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>clears throat* I think part of the reason some many of the editors on this wiki, including myself, have grown to resent GoBots so much is because of the mass amount of bullshit that is generated every time they're discussed. This discussion grew more in a day than most others do in a week; even big, huge drawn-out arguments like [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|the Grand Galvatron fiasco]] that have reached an ''ungodly'' length pale in comparison to this one, and there are several other GoBots discussions just like this one. You know what they all have in common? They ''NEVER. GET. ANYWHERE''. This exact discussion has been rehashed several times over the course of the past 6 years or so, and I imagine that's pretty tiresome for the people who have been here to each and every massive GoBots bitchfest unfold one after the other. Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even ''begin'' to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant.

:When we first starting mentioning the GoBots and making pages to discuss their relevence to Transformers, it was like taking a puppy we found on the street and bringing him into our house. He was so cute and harmless, how could we ''not'' let him in? So we fed him and played with him and took care of him. As we did so, that cute little puppy slowly but surely grew into a vicious 80 pound behemoth that had a trail of destruction following it wherever it went. It may be the cutest dog ever, but it's harassing the neighbors and covering the house in fecal matter. Not only that, but it ate the sofa. It's more trouble than it's worth.

:Dog <s>metaphors</s> similes aside, seeing this discussion has really changed my tune regarding Go-Bots. It's fun to have it, yes, but not fun enough to justify the massive bitchfests that take place every time someone tries to discuss what the length and scope of GoBots coverage should be. When Walky said he was ending this argument, I don't think he was just talking about this one particular instance of the debate that took place over the last 24 hours so much as the entirety of the various GoBots arguments over the past six years. And perhaps it's for the best; it seems that the inclusion GoBots on {{SITENAME}} has brought nothing but suffering. I think we should really only be covering GoBots stuff from official Transformers fiction, and if we're honest, Renegade Rhetoric no longer falls into that category. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)

{{note|Somewhere around this point, I remembered that Walky had already kinda-sorta ended the debate. (I say "kinda-sorta" because it continued on in spite of this to some extent.). I took a look at what I'd written, said to myself "Well, shit. I gotta do ''something'' with that." So I slapped this note on here and posted the whole kit and kaboodle onto the community portal, relevance be damned. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)}}

:I get what you are saying, but does that make GoBots the problem, or the fighting? Even so, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. We come together, debate, and reason out the best course of action, then keep on it until the situation changes and we come to a new consensus. That's exactly what a healthy Parliamentary body should do. When RR came up we discussed it and came to a decision, what I was showing concern about was Walky using judgment calls to prerserve demographic integrity, it felt a lot like there is an image of who this wiki is for, and that it would be enforced despite the actual editor/userbase. The idea that a wiki, or any community is served by the people instead of the other way around is a dangerous precedent so I am concerned of what will happen with future "culture clashes." [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:41, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I say leave tomorrow's worries to tomorrow. We'll handle them when we get to them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:16, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::You make a good point, Lush City. Yeah, we ''will'' have to get together and lay down the new rules for this or whatever, but it's best if we give everyone a little time to simmer down and take everything in before we do so. This will eventually all be worked out in good time. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:24, 8 January 2016 (EST)

how unfair do i have to make this place for lush city to leave --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:32, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Let's not be overly harsh. We shouldn't make people feel like they are unwelcomed unless they are being purposefully offensive, or disagreeable for its own sake. Or are outright breaking rules. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:49, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:: I am being exactly harsh enough. I'm pretty sure I kind of said to end all this shit because it's strangling the fucking wiki to death! Being able to put a foot down like that is WHY WE HAVE ADMINS. But sure, by all means, let's argue GoBots for the sixteenth billion time and continue to alienate everyone, because having someone even nominally in charge is fascism i guess. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Isn't Lush City the guy who argued that IDW somehow wasn't G1? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:20, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'm sorry that I came off as disrespectful, that was not my intent. I just wanted to say that so long as people are able to abide by administrative decisions, and respective the of the hierarchy, I bare no ill will towards them. I didn't mean my statement to be seen as an attack towards you, or an attempt to undermine your authority. It came off that way though, so I apologize again. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (EST)

===Questions and self reflection===
So, Walky said basically that I'm the problem, or part of it. And I don't want to be. I've got a lot of energy and I find wiki editing a relaxing way to unwind. I like puzzling through the connections and figuring out those ah ha moments when I feel like I can glimpse into the author's head and guess what they were thinking. So. How do I use that to be useful? I've done thousands of edits since I signed up and I really thought most of them were welcome and appropriate. Please, someone, point me in the right direction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:All I can offer is the same advice from our [[Ulchtar]] discussion: "''Be helpful, don't just be busy.''" I mean this as helpful criticism, but you do seem to confuse the two. Above, when you tried to call attention to Foffy the Sheep's value by saying, "''Look how many contributions he makes a day!''", even Foffy pointed out most of that was just adding links. Valid contributions, no doubt, but it isn't what makes someone a VIP contributor. I've been here since 2006. I created many of the original G1 character pages, filled out the fiction sections for every Mini-Con in the Armada cartoon and every secondary character in ''Headmasters'', but I still consider myself a mid-level contributor at best.
:Part of the problem is you came in during the AVP flurry of activity, which wasn't a good example of how the Wiki typically operates. Moving pages back and forth, renaming articles, votes on content...these used to be extremely rare events around here, once every six months or so. So what you might have seen as standard, day-to-day activity here was really a rare hassle becoming increasingly more common and grating on the nerves of the admins and long-time contributors without you even knowing it.
:I haven't read through your contributions section, so I don't know what besides AVP you like to contribute. I know some of the fiction sections have become drastically out of date. With so many contributors focused on using AVP or cleaning up after it, pages like Rodimus's IDW appearances haven't been updated in nearly two years! I routinely troll the character stubs section linked on the first page to find things to do. Depending on your preference, there's also Images Needed and Wanted Pages to create linked on the front page, too.
:Only other advice I'd offer is, for the moment, work more on contributing to the Wiki in its current format, instead of questioning or trying to change the format itself. That's my advice. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 18:50, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I've found that another good way to help is by going through [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:LonelyPages Orphaned pages list] and linking them to the relevant articles, or making sure that the disambiguation pages mention every applicable character. Some of the character disambig pages are missing links to their Angry Birds counterparts, and I suspect that the same may be true for some of the Kreon versions of characters. There's also [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki:Community_Portal/Underlinked this] list of articles that aren't linked to enough; it might be slightly outdated, but it's pretty useful.<br>I thought maybe my experience as a fairly new editor might be helpful to you; I hope this turns out to be the case.<br>(Side note: I was unaware that moving articles and such used to be a rare occurence; I'll try to keep that in mind and avoid such things whenever possible.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)

==User:TAZ==
Someone should probably ban [[Special:Contributions/TAZ|User:TAZ]]. For whatever reason, he seems to really hate [[:File:DonMurphy.jpg]], and has gone out of his way to either blank the page or removes links to it. (I waited about half an hour before posting this in case he was hoping to get a kick out of someone mentioning him.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:44, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Done! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 18:48, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:23, 7 January 2016 (EST)

== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnoxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Marvel thing is a unique case that at least is relevant to character write ups—it tells readers that the Marvel UK stuff mixed into the Marvel US stuff doesn't count. (Of course, this only applies to articles that actually have sections for the original Marvel comics.) The text in the notes could stand to be trimmed down, though. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Do you have some other examples of unnecessary notes we could discuss specifically? I caught the 2001 Car Robots note you mentioned from [[universal greeting]], and I agree it's pointless unless there's actually an RiD vs. CR distinction to be made. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::Wings, Classics, RG1 on pages without the continuity they're referring to. Ask Vector Prime. I'm bringing this up now because we need to develop a better way of vetting templates that are theoretically going to be used on many pages. One or two "yes" reponses on some hidden talk page most people don't notice shouldn't be used as a community-wide consensus on things that dramatically alter the reading experience across multiple pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And looking at the other stuff we have, [[:Template:Notecmn]] could easily be made as part of the actual prose and flow more naturally that way, for example. ("In a divergent timeline, blahblah"). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:17, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And there's [[:Template:Notemoviebio]], which explains what is a regular occurrence in all of Transformers fiction for no real reason. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:19, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::A similar one is [[:Template:Notetitantlg]], which I tried to make pointless when we overhauled the movie character pages a while back and which I think we ditched ''most'' uses of, but is still out there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Not quite the same situation, but I'd like to chime in that I'm not a big fan of [[:Template:ongoing]]. Most of the time, editors completely forget to include it on the appropriate sections, it reiterates something that's obvious ("if there's information missing here, you should add it.") and it's a note that only gets put up so that it can be eventually be taken down. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:27, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I agree that it's quite useless when we already have stub templates. Either information is missing or it isn't and people just leave it up on pages that really don't need it because it's not that noticeable. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:33, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Ehhhhhn. I'm willing to let "ongoing" live, as, well, there's a TON of "dead" fictions and only a few currently-updating ones, and letting people know which ones are likely to actually ''continue'' and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative. "Stub" can mean "it came out already and no-one's bothered yet", which is... different than "this cuts off because the scheduled continuation hasn't come out yet". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:12, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::Also, if you find yourself overburdened with certain tasks, don't be afraid to ask for help. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:08, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Thanks for taking care of the CR note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::No prob. As for the RG1 note, I agree that it would look nicer as a single line of text. I'm having difficulty reducing it in length without leaving out something crucial though. I'm putting it on the back-burner for now, but I'll keep it in mind. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:18, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Tried cutting it down a bit. The G2 bit was redundant. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::Ah yes. Much better. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:48, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Yeah, that's equally informative, but also far less intrusive. Nice work, Saix -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I just wanna say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we have too many goddamned templates. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Two templates for discussion: [[:Template:TransformersComicMagazin]] and [[:Template:GIJoeTransformersfiction]]. Necessary or not? I feel like the former states what's already obvious by the fact that it's in its own section ("Comic-Magazin is not Marvel"), while I dunno about the latter. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Transformers Magazin could probably be done without. The {Gi joe transformers fiction} one, on the other hand, should probably be kept. With the way we use the {noteukonly} and generally treat the US and UK comics, I feel that we kinda need to point out "hey, unlike just about everything else from Marvel US, ''this'' doesn't actually fit into the Marvel UK 'verse." -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Joe one is terrible. It's just plopped into the middle of fiction write-ups with no specification as to what text it refers to. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I can understand the ''purpose'', but the execution just doesn't work at all. And I don't think it belongs on the issue pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2016 (EST)

I don't do much fiction-section work anymore, but if I can identify part of the problem ''with the fiction itself''... unlike most franchises, TFs has a metric fuckton of "major" divergent splinter timelines. I mean, how many different Marvel G1 comic timeline spinoffs do we have now that don't actually relate to each other? It can be difficult at first look of a page to tell the difference between a series of proper, one-timeline sequel-series and, well, the clusterfuck that is post-Marvel-G1-related stuff branching out like a hydra. So I'm loathe to just run with the "well everyone reading thew wiki should know this" mentality.<br>
So, can see ''why'' the templates began, but when we started getting more and more branches? A bit out of hand. And worse, it's not quite a thing the base wiki organization tools are good at adapting and making obvious. (Frankly I find it tricky to tell sometimes the difference between a <nowiki>===</nowiki>-subsection and a <nowiki>====</nowiki>-subsection, but that's another quibble for later).<br>
I think a good amount of this can be mitigated with some creative rewriting of the sections' openings, "ten years after the battle of Klo" or whatnot. And certainly that doesn't even need to be brought up if it's just a one-off page of a piece of minor technology from one issue of a spinoff. But for larger pages with a buttload of timeline-fragments?<br>
We might want to look into collapsible Notes. Just a single template that can be adapted not just for this, but, well, for anything. Whack it up top, collapsed, have it say "Continuity Note: (more)" (not as a default), then people can click on it and see "well this continuity branches off from blardeeblar and has no relation to blardeeblar". This way the clutter is minimal, the information on our confusing mess of fiction is right at the fingertips.<br>
Just a thought.--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:31, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:This sounds useful. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:47, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I love this idea. Collapsable notes could solve a lot of the problems we've been having with the templates as of late. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I just took a brief look at the voiceactor template, since that does basically what I'm looking at, and even that template's workings are beyond my ability to understand and adapt into a collapsible Note. So um. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::It depends how you want it to work. Something like <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1|text 2}}</nowiki> to produce:
<div class="tt1_graynote">text 1 <span class="ocreditspan">text 2</span></div>
::Or just <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1}}</nowiki> and
<div class="tt1_graynote"><span class="ocreditspan">text 1</span></div>
::It wouldn't be difficult to knock either of those templates up --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::Expanding off of what Emvee posted here, I've worked up a collapsible note template which can display a custom header, custom visible text and hideable text that is either custom or derived from a preset name. The first draft, examples and documentation can be found here: [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox/Template:CollapseNote]]. All critiques are welcome. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 18:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
::::Is there a way to put that in a gray box so it matches with the rest of our Notes? I think this has legs. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:49, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::::D'oh! There is. In fact, I actually did have the box but the CSS for it is only available in my personal CSS file at the moment. I'll go integrate that into the template itself for now, then once this is approved maybe it can be moved to a site wide CSS file to reduce template clutter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:40, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Okay, the CSS is now included in the template so users besides myself can see the gray box. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I love it. Nice work, Tigerpaw. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:37, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::Seconded, good stuff. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:16, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'll stick the css in the common file when everyone's happy. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:29, 10 January 2016 (EST)

== More Prominence for IDW ==

I'm going to propose a change, because the above discussion reminded me of something I find annoying -- the position of IDW in the Fiction sections. At this point, I believe IDW is the longest running continuous fiction in Transformers history. Yet while the 30 year cartoon and Marvel Comic are easy to pick out due to their position at the top or their multitude of subcategories, IDW is typically found near the bottom of the list, nestled in between Japanese micro-continuities, Sticker Adventures and, god help us, ''The Beast Within''.<br><br>
Is there a better configuration we could work with? I'd be supportive of a "Major Fiction" and "Minor Fiction" breakdown for the traditional "Fiction" section, if we could all peacefully agree to what counts as Major and Minor. Another thought I had was to do away with the ''Ongoing Fiction Template'', and just have "Ongoing Fiction" automatically at the top and "Previous Fiction" underneath.<br><br>
Any of this sound worth looking into more? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:08, 11 January 2016 (EST)
: Absolutely friggin' not, never or ever. Organizing fiction due to perceived prominence is counter to the very spirit this wiki was founded on. (It's also amazingly subjective and would be a headache to argue over indefinitely.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:36, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Wasn't that the point of changing the disambiguation pages though? So that the more prominent stuff was at the top and had pictures to help people? [[User:Omegatron|omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:23, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::That kind of potential slippery-sloping was why I had misgivings about that change in the first place. But Disambig pages are navigation pages, and articles are not, and I have faith that we can recognize the different needs for pages according to their utility and not just make everything the same just because it makes our brains feel superficially happier. But let me put it this way: Imagine Grapple's page. In a "we put IDW first because it's important" world, a dinky subsection in which he appears in the background twice is given precedence over a Big Looker storybook in which he is a major character. IDW isn't always super important to a character's page just because its fiction's gone on a decade! And here's the kicker -- for those folks who've appeared a buttload in IDW, those sections are split off into their own subpages and navigation at the very top of the page leads you right there, effectively already giving everyone this proposed functionality. And without losing the information of real-world chronological release order that levels the canonicity playing field, I might add. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:00, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Right. The disambiguation page thing wasn't something brought up on a whim. It's not a thing I'd propose for any other "type" of page, because disambig pages serve a different purpose than almost every other. That requires some special consideration. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:15, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:No, no, no, no and no, with a side order of no and no for dessert. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:Just throwing this out there as an alternative suggestion to moving the sections around: what do people think of the idea of bolding major sections in the table of contents, so for Optimus you'd end up with something [[:File:Contents bold test.jpg|like this]]. For the sake of preventing arguments we'd reserve it for the really prominent G1 continuities (G1 and BW cartoons, Marvel, IDW and possibly Dreamwave comics), since it's not generally a problem for other continuity families. I'm thinking this could be done very simply in CSS without having to edit a ton of pages, though it would mean that characters with only an IDW fiction section would have it bolded in their contents listing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:30, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::That's got some potential, I think. I don't think single-fiction character with bold in their TOC would be a problem. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:48, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:This ties into an old proposal from way back that I'd also found in my Community Portal re-read, and was brought up on Allspark (and I'd briefly mentioned here recently); the visual differences between subheaders are really quite minimal. It's hard to tell at a look where one continuity-line ends and the other begins. there's got to be something we can do just '''''visually''''' to make these divisions easier to identify by sight. Can we make the header-text for continuity-breaks centered? If we wanna get fancy, can we make a graphic the header? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:47, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Okay, apparently you [[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox:Fiction_header_experiment|CAN center section headers]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Did some experimenting and [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox|found a way to do this]]. Requires a little bit of HTML/CSS inside the header but easily doable I think. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:04, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Since the initial concern, at least, was IDW, can someone sandbox a G1 character with an IDW section to see how that might look? [[Pipes (G1)]] seems like a good candidate, since he's got a good-sized IDW section that also isn't so big it should just be a subpage. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 23:13, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I've grown pretty iffy on using images as headers, honestly. There's a lotta "standalone" timelines that don't really have logos and having only SOME major headers be logo images... ehhhhhn. Might be best to just stick with text, maybe a thin bar above, with a wiki-wide change to a thicker tier-1-header-bar. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:12, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Actually? Second thoughts, no. This would likely start too many arguments. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)

==The Goal Of The Wiki==
(slight editing of something I posted to the Allspark's wiki thread)

A little while back I decided to rummage through the Community Portal archives... from the beginning. The earliest stages, when we were hammering out how to lay out the damn pages, what we should disambiguate by, etc. Saw the suggestions for making information more readily-accessible (character appearance tables, the GO! Box, the navigation templates), the "common wiki" practices we rejected because they just could not apply to this franchise (character infoboxes, for example, thanks to the many many many bodies the characters could have), up through the big move away from Wikia when they started really fucking us over with their ads.

And during that lonnnnng string of arguments with Wikia staff, when we tried (repeatedly) to explain why this "only not-signed-in readers will see the ads so why are you complaining since you don't see the page-ruining ads see this will somehow make money!" thing was utter bullshit...

:''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."''

Re-read that. '''''RE-FUCKING-READ THAT.'''''

The wiki lost that mentality somewhere. At some point in the last few years, the wiki stopped being about the readers, what would make the vast ocean of material accessible and entertaining to them. It became a micro-minutia-based circlejerk. It became editors confusing anal-retentive busywork (based on the strictest interpretation of rules that always were meant to be applied with a slight degree of malleability because our subject matter absolutely HAS to be handled that way) with productive and useful updating. And with the advent of the Facebook AVP, it became "gee now I can make Real Transformers wheeeeee" with even more micro-minutia and bad-faith gaming of the canon policy that was originally meant to give equal space to the obscure so we wouldn't have the "prominence = more deserving" mentality (plus stuff very specifically made to create circumstances to middle-finger policies that have served us well for a decade prior).

Thus, people who've worked for a decade to make the wiki something huge and special and a wiki other fandoms look at and go "holy shit, we need something like this" find themselves frustrated and edging away as the spirit of the whole thing turns into this sour, solipsistic nigh-gatekeepery up-its-own-ass wank festival, especially when certain subjects just won't. Goddamn. STOP.

From one of our newest regulars:

:''"Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant."''

So when I see "hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important" or "why don't we rename every character in the Japanese-fiction writeups to their Japanese names", yeah, I'm gonna respond harsher because it's kind of hit that point where we have to start bringing the hammer down hard to keep this thing even remotely accessible to anyone who isn't fully engaged in the minutia of TFdom.

I think wiki editors (and others) need to stop and have a good think about WHY they're doing what they're doing, and who they're actually doing it for, and, ultimately, if they should actually be doing it.

There's an important difference between "can" and "should", and too many don't see it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:''look i already apologised for the japanese name thing okay''
:Well, said, though, and you've given me something to think about. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:...Yeah, I'm taking exception to this.

:Because of recent events, I wasn't expecting anyone to jump for joy, but this is a bit much. First of all, "''hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important''" is reductive and dismissive to the facts on the table and the argument I presented. IDW being "ongoing fiction" isn't my subjective opinion, it's a fact. It's also the longest running mass-market fiction not only ongoing right now, but also in Transformers history. So I'm not some weebo saying, "I like Japan, so other people must want Japan to be more prominent, too." (no offense, Riptide -- just for the argument) We were discussing a case of ''factual'' prominence, not the "perceived prominence" just inside my own silly head.

:And I don't need ''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."'' repeated back to me because it was you, M "Not lovin' this idea" Sipher I was thinking of, saying those very words, which made me think this was a good idea.

:Maybe we have different ideas about what casual readers are, but I think of them as new/returning fans who came here because of some ongoing fiction they just saw, and might like to learn more about. If they're watching ''Robots in Disguise'' or ''Rescue Bots'', that's cool -- most of those character pages are traceable by (RID) or (RB) disambigs, which is simple enough to figure out. And their Fiction box sections are (mostly) minimal enough to glance over and find what you wanted.

:But what about the comics? Well, first they have to know IDW is Generation 1, which isn't exactly on the cover of the comics. Then they have to know the Fiction section on a character's page is organized by release date. You and I know that, but is that rule actually posted in a FAQ somewhere so we could expect a casual reader to know it? The way Sunbow and Marvel subdivide on most pages, a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking the most prominent stuff is ''already'' on the top. And even assuming they're visiting the Wiki on a full-screen computer and not a mobile device, for the 1987 guys or earlier "IDW Generation 1 continuity" is likely going to be "below the fold". And if you made it to the end of this paragraph thinking TL;DR, imagine the casual reader going through this in real time. THAT was who I was thinking of when I suggested the Ongoing Fiction content that the casual reader might be looking for when they come here ''be easier to find somehow''.

:I'm not ''trying'' to throw your words back at you, M Sipher, but again it honestly was a post you made this week defending the Ongoing Fiction Template that made me think of this. You said, "''letting people know which ones are likely to actually continue and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative''". But the current razor-thin, World's Smallest Template Note doesn't really accomplish that. A casual reader may stumble across it by accident, if they squint, or they'll find it if they're already looking for it, but that's it. Floating Ongoing Fiction to the top of the Fiction sections negates the need for the template, lets new readers find what they were most likely looking for more easily, and those Fictions can just as easily be shuffled back down into 'release date order "dead" fiction' once they are no longer ongoing.

:If this was a bad idea, fine. But maybe you could provide me a definition of "casual reader friendly", because obviously my ''WWMSD?'' bracelet doesn't help when I'm too stupid to know the answer. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:09, 12 January 2016 (EST)

::There's a Table of Contents at the top of just about every character page. The wiki software even ''automatically'' makes a TOC if a page has enough subsections. That TOC has "IDW continuity" in it, which links directly to said subsection. Easy.
::Your proposal is nothing but arguments waiting to happen over what's "more important", to become more arguments over which "more important" fiction takes prominenece over the other "more important" (comics or cartoons?) with no actual ''benefit''. It is furniture-shuffling. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 13:19, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Not to put words in Sipher's mouth, but I don't think the main idea he's putting across is ''really'' about your proposal, Xaaron, you've just said it at a moment in time in which we are seeing a lot of what Sipher describes (but trying to dub something "more important" ''will'' lead to arguments - I remember way back when when people would complain we were putting the Marvel comic ahead of the cartoon). To repost something I've also said on the Allspark - which I don't consider to relate to your proposal, Xaaron - I have been saying for a long time in private conversation what Sipher is saying now, and several months ago, I tried to explain how we're basically responsible for breeding this attitude into our readers. It's the same attitude that caused the AVP brouhaha - we are seeing editors now openly state that the wiki has been a gateway to a lot of this stuff for them, and that they have fixated on the minutiae and the continuity-fondling, which is such a small part of what Transformers, and the wiki, is about that it's the wrong lesson to come away with. Wiki projects ATTRACT those with mindsets focused on categorization, organization, and pattern-observation. It took years before we had editors who were able to reconcile that way of thinking with our "and also fun!" approach, but they now exist, and are more interested in trying to make sure all the headers are precisely the same, that everything is in exactly the right continuity-order and header-structure and category, that all the disambigs are exact - that absolutely everything fits into its little imaginary box, and that nothing breaks the rules by coming out of its box unless there's a seventeen-week debate about it first. ORGANIZATION IS IMPORTANT, but - with the greatest of actual respect to our new editors, because it is thankless hugging busywork and its impressive that you're dedicated to it - as Sipher says, this "moving of the furniture" is all that newer-guard editors actually seem to want to do, or to be capable of doing. It's very, very easy to paste a one-or-two sentence nugget of information from AVP into the wiki, which is why so many people do it and why it got so out of control - but you don't see anyone falling over themselves to add Spacewarp's Log stuff, even before the two-week delay, because it's not presented in nugget form, it's a piece of prose that you'd actually have to - shock, horror - read and summarize, and - oh christ no - it's NOT full of references to pre-existing things so you can't just paste it into existing articles or throw the AVP stub template in. When - just for a recent example - I can go to the article of a major character like Ironhide or Thundercracker and still find tons of material that needs filling in, that says "it doesn't matter that it's been ten years, there is a lot more important work to do than making sure that header is a level 2 or a level 3 one." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::I just want to be clear that people who take the time to do "busywork" like, say, fixing links so they no longer lead to a redirect page are ''unquestionably welcome to''. That's good, that has a tangible benefit to our wiki (reducing server load). That kind of "busywork" is ''absolutely'' okay. It's the seemingly-endless stream of talks about reorganizing hundreds of pages, arguments over disambigs, and yeah, the "easy" trivia-nugget work that's grinding here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:01, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:I get the concern over the AVP-inspired editors, and even counseled Giggidy about this very issue above. In hindsight, I probably should've waited for the dust to settle more on the GoBots matter before suggesting something similar for different reasons, but like I said, the idea was sparked by the above discussion about the Ongoing Template.
:And I completely agree that a Major/Minor Fiction split would likely lead to more arguments than benefits, which is why I also proposed Ongoing/Not Ongoing. That's completely binary and objective. It's not subject to debate over which fiction is "More Ongoing" than another.
:I agree that the IDW links above the main character images remove any need for my proposal...for the characters who have them. My concern rested with characters like Jazz or Soundwave who do not have IDW subpages, and that continuity is 21 or 24 listings down on their Fiction TOCs, nestled between things like ''Q-Robo'' and ''Henkei! Henkei!''. But, as I believe Chip suggested on the Allspark, a way to resolve all this is to just be more lenient with allowing IDW subpages in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:31, 12 January 2016 (EST)

==Continuity Stream Bullshit==
I suggested this on the Allspark, and there's some momentum for it so I'll put it here.

As M Sipher said above, arbitrary furniture movement is bad. That said, all the continuity stream minutae is even worse, and serves only to bloat our pagecount with duplicated information in articles that will only ever be stubs forever. Why do both [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and [[The Transformers (issue)]] exist? Or [[Marvel Comics continuity]] if you think the continuity is more important than what the Universal Stream indicator actually decodes to, although if there weren't significant opposition I'd argue that since the stream encoding to a piece of fiction is a 1:1 mapping that we should respect that directly.

Since a Universal Stream page will not contain any useful information other than its actual stream indicator (and VERY occasionally some detail such as "this universe is destroying another one"), I'd like to propose that all universal stream pages either be redirected to the actual single piece of fiction that the stream indicator decodes to, or to the Continuity timeline page that best describes it - and somewhere on **that** page we try and find a place for the universal stream number. Perhaps in the same fashion we originally handled alternate names - directly below the introductory paragraph, in bold?

If this causes problems, feel free to disregard... but I've heard enough discontent about the matter and there's been enough push for it there that I feel confident enough to put my next foot forward on this happening. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:32, 13 January 2016 (EST)

My proposal is that rather than stream pages, major continuities would all get pages. a Marvel g1 universe page, a sunbow cartoon universe a Classicsverse page and so on. Then, stream numbers used in universe would be redirect to those pages. Minor streams would get redirected to the current list pages we have now; AVP additions to minor streams would go in notes on the works main page. (For example, Ulchtar would go in the notes of that videogame)[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:51, 13 January 2016 (EST)

I just noted that the already existing Universal Stream pages could be converted into continuity pages in some instances , http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Classicsverse could be simply renamed "Classics Continuity/Universe" for example

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-13T15:51:34Z

Lush City: /* Continuity Stream Bullshit */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
===Walky Calls It===
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

===Epilogue: It's all over but the crying===
:This was supposed to be a short reponse to Lush City, but it quickly grew, and as it did so, I began to re-evaluating my initial opinion on this matter. Bear with me through this wall of text, won't you please?

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>clears throat* I think part of the reason some many of the editors on this wiki, including myself, have grown to resent GoBots so much is because of the mass amount of bullshit that is generated every time they're discussed. This discussion grew more in a day than most others do in a week; even big, huge drawn-out arguments like [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|the Grand Galvatron fiasco]] that have reached an ''ungodly'' length pale in comparison to this one, and there are several other GoBots discussions just like this one. You know what they all have in common? They ''NEVER. GET. ANYWHERE''. This exact discussion has been rehashed several times over the course of the past 6 years or so, and I imagine that's pretty tiresome for the people who have been here to each and every massive GoBots bitchfest unfold one after the other. Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even ''begin'' to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant.

:When we first starting mentioning the GoBots and making pages to discuss their relevence to Transformers, it was like taking a puppy we found on the street and bringing him into our house. He was so cute and harmless, how could we ''not'' let him in? So we fed him and played with him and took care of him. As we did so, that cute little puppy slowly but surely grew into a vicious 80 pound behemoth that had a trail of destruction following it wherever it went. It may be the cutest dog ever, but it's harassing the neighbors and covering the house in fecal matter. Not only that, but it ate the sofa. It's more trouble than it's worth.

:Dog <s>metaphors</s> similes aside, seeing this discussion has really changed my tune regarding Go-Bots. It's fun to have it, yes, but not fun enough to justify the massive bitchfests that take place every time someone tries to discuss what the length and scope of GoBots coverage should be. When Walky said he was ending this argument, I don't think he was just talking about this one particular instance of the debate that took place over the last 24 hours so much as the entirety of the various GoBots arguments over the past six years. And perhaps it's for the best; it seems that the inclusion GoBots on {{SITENAME}} has brought nothing but suffering. I think we should really only be covering GoBots stuff from official Transformers fiction, and if we're honest, Renegade Rhetoric no longer falls into that category. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)

{{note|Somewhere around this point, I remembered that Walky had already kinda-sorta ended the debate. (I say "kinda-sorta" because it continued on in spite of this to some extent.). I took a look at what I'd written, said to myself "Well, shit. I gotta do ''something'' with that." So I slapped this note on here and posted the whole kit and kaboodle onto the community portal, relevance be damned. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)}}

:I get what you are saying, but does that make GoBots the problem, or the fighting? Even so, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. We come together, debate, and reason out the best course of action, then keep on it until the situation changes and we come to a new consensus. That's exactly what a healthy Parliamentary body should do. When RR came up we discussed it and came to a decision, what I was showing concern about was Walky using judgment calls to prerserve demographic integrity, it felt a lot like there is an image of who this wiki is for, and that it would be enforced despite the actual editor/userbase. The idea that a wiki, or any community is served by the people instead of the other way around is a dangerous precedent so I am concerned of what will happen with future "culture clashes." [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:41, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I say leave tomorrow's worries to tomorrow. We'll handle them when we get to them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:16, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::You make a good point, Lush City. Yeah, we ''will'' have to get together and lay down the new rules for this or whatever, but it's best if we give everyone a little time to simmer down and take everything in before we do so. This will eventually all be worked out in good time. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:24, 8 January 2016 (EST)

how unfair do i have to make this place for lush city to leave --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 15:32, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Let's not be overly harsh. We shouldn't make people feel like they are unwelcomed unless they are being purposefully offensive, or disagreeable for its own sake. Or are outright breaking rules. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:49, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:: I am being exactly harsh enough. I'm pretty sure I kind of said to end all this shit because it's strangling the fucking wiki to death! Being able to put a foot down like that is WHY WE HAVE ADMINS. But sure, by all means, let's argue GoBots for the sixteenth billion time and continue to alienate everyone, because having someone even nominally in charge is fascism i guess. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Isn't Lush City the guy who argued that IDW somehow wasn't G1? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:20, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::I'm sorry that I came off as disrespectful, that was not my intent. I just wanted to say that so long as people are able to abide by administrative decisions, and respective the of the hierarchy, I bare no ill will towards them. I didn't mean my statement to be seen as an attack towards you, or an attempt to undermine your authority. It came off that way though, so I apologize again. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (EST)

===Questions and self reflection===
So, Walky said basically that I'm the problem, or part of it. And I don't want to be. I've got a lot of energy and I find wiki editing a relaxing way to unwind. I like puzzling through the connections and figuring out those ah ha moments when I feel like I can glimpse into the author's head and guess what they were thinking. So. How do I use that to be useful? I've done thousands of edits since I signed up and I really thought most of them were welcome and appropriate. Please, someone, point me in the right direction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:All I can offer is the same advice from our [[Ulchtar]] discussion: "''Be helpful, don't just be busy.''" I mean this as helpful criticism, but you do seem to confuse the two. Above, when you tried to call attention to Foffy the Sheep's value by saying, "''Look how many contributions he makes a day!''", even Foffy pointed out most of that was just adding links. Valid contributions, no doubt, but it isn't what makes someone a VIP contributor. I've been here since 2006. I created many of the original G1 character pages, filled out the fiction sections for every Mini-Con in the Armada cartoon and every secondary character in ''Headmasters'', but I still consider myself a mid-level contributor at best.
:Part of the problem is you came in during the AVP flurry of activity, which wasn't a good example of how the Wiki typically operates. Moving pages back and forth, renaming articles, votes on content...these used to be extremely rare events around here, once every six months or so. So what you might have seen as standard, day-to-day activity here was really a rare hassle becoming increasingly more common and grating on the nerves of the admins and long-time contributors without you even knowing it.
:I haven't read through your contributions section, so I don't know what besides AVP you like to contribute. I know some of the fiction sections have become drastically out of date. With so many contributors focused on using AVP or cleaning up after it, pages like Rodimus's IDW appearances haven't been updated in nearly two years! I routinely troll the character stubs section linked on the first page to find things to do. Depending on your preference, there's also Images Needed and Wanted Pages to create linked on the front page, too.
:Only other advice I'd offer is, for the moment, work more on contributing to the Wiki in its current format, instead of questioning or trying to change the format itself. That's my advice. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 18:50, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I've found that another good way to help is by going through [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:LonelyPages Orphaned pages list] and linking them to the relevant articles, or making sure that the disambiguation pages mention every applicable character. Some of the character disambig pages are missing links to their Angry Birds counterparts, and I suspect that the same may be true for some of the Kreon versions of characters. There's also [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki:Community_Portal/Underlinked this] list of articles that aren't linked to enough; it might be slightly outdated, but it's pretty useful.<br>I thought maybe my experience as a fairly new editor might be helpful to you; I hope this turns out to be the case.<br>(Side note: I was unaware that moving articles and such used to be a rare occurence; I'll try to keep that in mind and avoid such things whenever possible.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:10, 8 January 2016 (EST)

==User:TAZ==
Someone should probably ban [[Special:Contributions/TAZ|User:TAZ]]. For whatever reason, he seems to really hate [[:File:DonMurphy.jpg]], and has gone out of his way to either blank the page or removes links to it. (I waited about half an hour before posting this in case he was hoping to get a kick out of someone mentioning him.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:44, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Done! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 18:48, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:23, 7 January 2016 (EST)

== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnoxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Marvel thing is a unique case that at least is relevant to character write ups—it tells readers that the Marvel UK stuff mixed into the Marvel US stuff doesn't count. (Of course, this only applies to articles that actually have sections for the original Marvel comics.) The text in the notes could stand to be trimmed down, though. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Do you have some other examples of unnecessary notes we could discuss specifically? I caught the 2001 Car Robots note you mentioned from [[universal greeting]], and I agree it's pointless unless there's actually an RiD vs. CR distinction to be made. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::Wings, Classics, RG1 on pages without the continuity they're referring to. Ask Vector Prime. I'm bringing this up now because we need to develop a better way of vetting templates that are theoretically going to be used on many pages. One or two "yes" reponses on some hidden talk page most people don't notice shouldn't be used as a community-wide consensus on things that dramatically alter the reading experience across multiple pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And looking at the other stuff we have, [[:Template:Notecmn]] could easily be made as part of the actual prose and flow more naturally that way, for example. ("In a divergent timeline, blahblah"). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:17, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::And there's [[:Template:Notemoviebio]], which explains what is a regular occurrence in all of Transformers fiction for no real reason. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:19, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::A similar one is [[:Template:Notetitantlg]], which I tried to make pointless when we overhauled the movie character pages a while back and which I think we ditched ''most'' uses of, but is still out there. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Not quite the same situation, but I'd like to chime in that I'm not a big fan of [[:Template:ongoing]]. Most of the time, editors completely forget to include it on the appropriate sections, it reiterates something that's obvious ("if there's information missing here, you should add it.") and it's a note that only gets put up so that it can be eventually be taken down. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:27, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::I agree that it's quite useless when we already have stub templates. Either information is missing or it isn't and people just leave it up on pages that really don't need it because it's not that noticeable. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:33, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Ehhhhhn. I'm willing to let "ongoing" live, as, well, there's a TON of "dead" fictions and only a few currently-updating ones, and letting people know which ones are likely to actually ''continue'' and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative. "Stub" can mean "it came out already and no-one's bothered yet", which is... different than "this cuts off because the scheduled continuation hasn't come out yet". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:12, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::Also, if you find yourself overburdened with certain tasks, don't be afraid to ask for help. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:08, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Thanks for taking care of the CR note. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::No prob. As for the RG1 note, I agree that it would look nicer as a single line of text. I'm having difficulty reducing it in length without leaving out something crucial though. I'm putting it on the back-burner for now, but I'll keep it in mind. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:18, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::Tried cutting it down a bit. The G2 bit was redundant. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::::::::Ah yes. Much better. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 13:48, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::::::::Yeah, that's equally informative, but also far less intrusive. Nice work, Saix -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I just wanna say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks we have too many goddamned templates. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:03, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Two templates for discussion: [[:Template:TransformersComicMagazin]] and [[:Template:GIJoeTransformersfiction]]. Necessary or not? I feel like the former states what's already obvious by the fact that it's in its own section ("Comic-Magazin is not Marvel"), while I dunno about the latter. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:43, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:Transformers Magazin could probably be done without. The {Gi joe transformers fiction} one, on the other hand, should probably be kept. With the way we use the {noteukonly} and generally treat the US and UK comics, I feel that we kinda need to point out "hey, unlike just about everything else from Marvel US, ''this'' doesn't actually fit into the Marvel UK 'verse." -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 15:53, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::The Joe one is terrible. It's just plopped into the middle of fiction write-ups with no specification as to what text it refers to. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:04, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:::Yeah, I can understand the ''purpose'', but the execution just doesn't work at all. And I don't think it belongs on the issue pages. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:06, 8 January 2016 (EST)

I don't do much fiction-section work anymore, but if I can identify part of the problem ''with the fiction itself''... unlike most franchises, TFs has a metric fuckton of "major" divergent splinter timelines. I mean, how many different Marvel G1 comic timeline spinoffs do we have now that don't actually relate to each other? It can be difficult at first look of a page to tell the difference between a series of proper, one-timeline sequel-series and, well, the clusterfuck that is post-Marvel-G1-related stuff branching out like a hydra. So I'm loathe to just run with the "well everyone reading thew wiki should know this" mentality.<br>
So, can see ''why'' the templates began, but when we started getting more and more branches? A bit out of hand. And worse, it's not quite a thing the base wiki organization tools are good at adapting and making obvious. (Frankly I find it tricky to tell sometimes the difference between a <nowiki>===</nowiki>-subsection and a <nowiki>====</nowiki>-subsection, but that's another quibble for later).<br>
I think a good amount of this can be mitigated with some creative rewriting of the sections' openings, "ten years after the battle of Klo" or whatnot. And certainly that doesn't even need to be brought up if it's just a one-off page of a piece of minor technology from one issue of a spinoff. But for larger pages with a buttload of timeline-fragments?<br>
We might want to look into collapsible Notes. Just a single template that can be adapted not just for this, but, well, for anything. Whack it up top, collapsed, have it say "Continuity Note: (more)" (not as a default), then people can click on it and see "well this continuity branches off from blardeeblar and has no relation to blardeeblar". This way the clutter is minimal, the information on our confusing mess of fiction is right at the fingertips.<br>
Just a thought.--[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 16:31, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:This sounds useful. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:47, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I love this idea. Collapsable notes could solve a lot of the problems we've been having with the templates as of late. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2016 (EST)

:I just took a brief look at the voiceactor template, since that does basically what I'm looking at, and even that template's workings are beyond my ability to understand and adapt into a collapsible Note. So um. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:26, 8 January 2016 (EST)

::It depends how you want it to work. Something like <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1|text 2}}</nowiki> to produce:
<div class="tt1_graynote">text 1 <span class="ocreditspan">text 2</span></div>
::Or just <nowiki>{{cnote|text 1}}</nowiki> and
<div class="tt1_graynote"><span class="ocreditspan">text 1</span></div>
::It wouldn't be difficult to knock either of those templates up --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 09:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::Expanding off of what Emvee posted here, I've worked up a collapsible note template which can display a custom header, custom visible text and hideable text that is either custom or derived from a preset name. The first draft, examples and documentation can be found here: [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox/Template:CollapseNote]]. All critiques are welcome. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 18:50, 9 January 2016 (EST)
::::Is there a way to put that in a gray box so it matches with the rest of our Notes? I think this has legs. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:49, 9 January 2016 (EST)
:::::D'oh! There is. In fact, I actually did have the box but the CSS for it is only available in my personal CSS file at the moment. I'll go integrate that into the template itself for now, then once this is approved maybe it can be moved to a site wide CSS file to reduce template clutter.--[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:40, 10 January 2016 (EST)
:::::Okay, the CSS is now included in the template so users besides myself can see the gray box. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I love it. Nice work, Tigerpaw. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:37, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::Seconded, good stuff. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:16, 10 January 2016 (EST)
::::::I'll stick the css in the common file when everyone's happy. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:29, 10 January 2016 (EST)

== More Prominence for IDW ==

I'm going to propose a change, because the above discussion reminded me of something I find annoying -- the position of IDW in the Fiction sections. At this point, I believe IDW is the longest running continuous fiction in Transformers history. Yet while the 30 year cartoon and Marvel Comic are easy to pick out due to their position at the top or their multitude of subcategories, IDW is typically found near the bottom of the list, nestled in between Japanese micro-continuities, Sticker Adventures and, god help us, ''The Beast Within''.<br><br>
Is there a better configuration we could work with? I'd be supportive of a "Major Fiction" and "Minor Fiction" breakdown for the traditional "Fiction" section, if we could all peacefully agree to what counts as Major and Minor. Another thought I had was to do away with the ''Ongoing Fiction Template'', and just have "Ongoing Fiction" automatically at the top and "Previous Fiction" underneath.<br><br>
Any of this sound worth looking into more? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:08, 11 January 2016 (EST)
: Absolutely friggin' not, never or ever. Organizing fiction due to perceived prominence is counter to the very spirit this wiki was founded on. (It's also amazingly subjective and would be a headache to argue over indefinitely.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:36, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Wasn't that the point of changing the disambiguation pages though? So that the more prominent stuff was at the top and had pictures to help people? [[User:Omegatron|omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:23, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::That kind of potential slippery-sloping was why I had misgivings about that change in the first place. But Disambig pages are navigation pages, and articles are not, and I have faith that we can recognize the different needs for pages according to their utility and not just make everything the same just because it makes our brains feel superficially happier. But let me put it this way: Imagine Grapple's page. In a "we put IDW first because it's important" world, a dinky subsection in which he appears in the background twice is given precedence over a Big Looker storybook in which he is a major character. IDW isn't always super important to a character's page just because its fiction's gone on a decade! And here's the kicker -- for those folks who've appeared a buttload in IDW, those sections are split off into their own subpages and navigation at the very top of the page leads you right there, effectively already giving everyone this proposed functionality. And without losing the information of real-world chronological release order that levels the canonicity playing field, I might add. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 14:00, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Right. The disambiguation page thing wasn't something brought up on a whim. It's not a thing I'd propose for any other "type" of page, because disambig pages serve a different purpose than almost every other. That requires some special consideration. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:15, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:No, no, no, no and no, with a side order of no and no for dessert. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:Just throwing this out there as an alternative suggestion to moving the sections around: what do people think of the idea of bolding major sections in the table of contents, so for Optimus you'd end up with something [[:File:Contents bold test.jpg|like this]]. For the sake of preventing arguments we'd reserve it for the really prominent G1 continuities (G1 and BW cartoons, Marvel, IDW and possibly Dreamwave comics), since it's not generally a problem for other continuity families. I'm thinking this could be done very simply in CSS without having to edit a ton of pages, though it would mean that characters with only an IDW fiction section would have it bolded in their contents listing. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:30, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::That's got some potential, I think. I don't think single-fiction character with bold in their TOC would be a problem. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:48, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:This ties into an old proposal from way back that I'd also found in my Community Portal re-read, and was brought up on Allspark (and I'd briefly mentioned here recently); the visual differences between subheaders are really quite minimal. It's hard to tell at a look where one continuity-line ends and the other begins. there's got to be something we can do just '''''visually''''' to make these divisions easier to identify by sight. Can we make the header-text for continuity-breaks centered? If we wanna get fancy, can we make a graphic the header? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:47, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::Okay, apparently you [[User:M_Sipher/Sandbox:Fiction_header_experiment|CAN center section headers]]. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Did some experimenting and [[User:Tigerpaw28/Sandbox|found a way to do this]]. Requires a little bit of HTML/CSS inside the header but easily doable I think. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:04, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::Since the initial concern, at least, was IDW, can someone sandbox a G1 character with an IDW section to see how that might look? [[Pipes (G1)]] seems like a good candidate, since he's got a good-sized IDW section that also isn't so big it should just be a subpage. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 23:13, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I've grown pretty iffy on using images as headers, honestly. There's a lotta "standalone" timelines that don't really have logos and having only SOME major headers be logo images... ehhhhhn. Might be best to just stick with text, maybe a thin bar above, with a wiki-wide change to a thicker tier-1-header-bar. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:12, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Actually? Second thoughts, no. This would likely start too many arguments. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:05, 13 January 2016 (EST)

==The Goal Of The Wiki==
(slight editing of something I posted to the Allspark's wiki thread)

A little while back I decided to rummage through the Community Portal archives... from the beginning. The earliest stages, when we were hammering out how to lay out the damn pages, what we should disambiguate by, etc. Saw the suggestions for making information more readily-accessible (character appearance tables, the GO! Box, the navigation templates), the "common wiki" practices we rejected because they just could not apply to this franchise (character infoboxes, for example, thanks to the many many many bodies the characters could have), up through the big move away from Wikia when they started really fucking us over with their ads.

And during that lonnnnng string of arguments with Wikia staff, when we tried (repeatedly) to explain why this "only not-signed-in readers will see the ads so why are you complaining since you don't see the page-ruining ads see this will somehow make money!" thing was utter bullshit...

:''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."''

Re-read that. '''''RE-FUCKING-READ THAT.'''''

The wiki lost that mentality somewhere. At some point in the last few years, the wiki stopped being about the readers, what would make the vast ocean of material accessible and entertaining to them. It became a micro-minutia-based circlejerk. It became editors confusing anal-retentive busywork (based on the strictest interpretation of rules that always were meant to be applied with a slight degree of malleability because our subject matter absolutely HAS to be handled that way) with productive and useful updating. And with the advent of the Facebook AVP, it became "gee now I can make Real Transformers wheeeeee" with even more micro-minutia and bad-faith gaming of the canon policy that was originally meant to give equal space to the obscure so we wouldn't have the "prominence = more deserving" mentality (plus stuff very specifically made to create circumstances to middle-finger policies that have served us well for a decade prior).

Thus, people who've worked for a decade to make the wiki something huge and special and a wiki other fandoms look at and go "holy shit, we need something like this" find themselves frustrated and edging away as the spirit of the whole thing turns into this sour, solipsistic nigh-gatekeepery up-its-own-ass wank festival, especially when certain subjects just won't. Goddamn. STOP.

From one of our newest regulars:

:''"Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant."''

So when I see "hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important" or "why don't we rename every character in the Japanese-fiction writeups to their Japanese names", yeah, I'm gonna respond harsher because it's kind of hit that point where we have to start bringing the hammer down hard to keep this thing even remotely accessible to anyone who isn't fully engaged in the minutia of TFdom.

I think wiki editors (and others) need to stop and have a good think about WHY they're doing what they're doing, and who they're actually doing it for, and, ultimately, if they should actually be doing it.

There's an important difference between "can" and "should", and too many don't see it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:''look i already apologised for the japanese name thing okay''
:Well, said, though, and you've given me something to think about. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

:...Yeah, I'm taking exception to this.

:Because of recent events, I wasn't expecting anyone to jump for joy, but this is a bit much. First of all, "''hey why don't we move IDW sections up because I think it's more important''" is reductive and dismissive to the facts on the table and the argument I presented. IDW being "ongoing fiction" isn't my subjective opinion, it's a fact. It's also the longest running mass-market fiction not only ongoing right now, but also in Transformers history. So I'm not some weebo saying, "I like Japan, so other people must want Japan to be more prominent, too." (no offense, Riptide -- just for the argument) We were discussing a case of ''factual'' prominence, not the "perceived prominence" just inside my own silly head.

:And I don't need ''"We create the content on this wiki FOR casual readers."'' repeated back to me because it was you, M "Not lovin' this idea" Sipher I was thinking of, saying those very words, which made me think this was a good idea.

:Maybe we have different ideas about what casual readers are, but I think of them as new/returning fans who came here because of some ongoing fiction they just saw, and might like to learn more about. If they're watching ''Robots in Disguise'' or ''Rescue Bots'', that's cool -- most of those character pages are traceable by (RID) or (RB) disambigs, which is simple enough to figure out. And their Fiction box sections are (mostly) minimal enough to glance over and find what you wanted.

:But what about the comics? Well, first they have to know IDW is Generation 1, which isn't exactly on the cover of the comics. Then they have to know the Fiction section on a character's page is organized by release date. You and I know that, but is that rule actually posted in a FAQ somewhere so we could expect a casual reader to know it? The way Sunbow and Marvel subdivide on most pages, a casual reader could be forgiven for thinking the most prominent stuff is ''already'' on the top. And even assuming they're visiting the Wiki on a full-screen computer and not a mobile device, for the 1987 guys or earlier "IDW Generation 1 continuity" is likely going to be "below the fold". And if you made it to the end of this paragraph thinking TL;DR, imagine the casual reader going through this in real time. THAT was who I was thinking of when I suggested the Ongoing Fiction content that the casual reader might be looking for when they come here ''be easier to find somehow''.

:I'm not ''trying'' to throw your words back at you, M Sipher, but again it honestly was a post you made this week defending the Ongoing Fiction Template that made me think of this. You said, "''letting people know which ones are likely to actually continue and not just be a storyline dead-end is at least marginally informative''". But the current razor-thin, World's Smallest Template Note doesn't really accomplish that. A casual reader may stumble across it by accident, if they squint, or they'll find it if they're already looking for it, but that's it. Floating Ongoing Fiction to the top of the Fiction sections negates the need for the template, lets new readers find what they were most likely looking for more easily, and those Fictions can just as easily be shuffled back down into 'release date order "dead" fiction' once they are no longer ongoing.

:If this was a bad idea, fine. But maybe you could provide me a definition of "casual reader friendly", because obviously my ''WWMSD?'' bracelet doesn't help when I'm too stupid to know the answer. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:09, 12 January 2016 (EST)

::There's a Table of Contents at the top of just about every character page. The wiki software even ''automatically'' makes a TOC if a page has enough subsections. That TOC has "IDW continuity" in it, which links directly to said subsection. Easy.
::Your proposal is nothing but arguments waiting to happen over what's "more important", to become more arguments over which "more important" fiction takes prominenece over the other "more important" (comics or cartoons?) with no actual ''benefit''. It is furniture-shuffling. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 13:19, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:::Not to put words in Sipher's mouth, but I don't think the main idea he's putting across is ''really'' about your proposal, Xaaron, you've just said it at a moment in time in which we are seeing a lot of what Sipher describes (but trying to dub something "more important" ''will'' lead to arguments - I remember way back when when people would complain we were putting the Marvel comic ahead of the cartoon). To repost something I've also said on the Allspark - which I don't consider to relate to your proposal, Xaaron - I have been saying for a long time in private conversation what Sipher is saying now, and several months ago, I tried to explain how we're basically responsible for breeding this attitude into our readers. It's the same attitude that caused the AVP brouhaha - we are seeing editors now openly state that the wiki has been a gateway to a lot of this stuff for them, and that they have fixated on the minutiae and the continuity-fondling, which is such a small part of what Transformers, and the wiki, is about that it's the wrong lesson to come away with. Wiki projects ATTRACT those with mindsets focused on categorization, organization, and pattern-observation. It took years before we had editors who were able to reconcile that way of thinking with our "and also fun!" approach, but they now exist, and are more interested in trying to make sure all the headers are precisely the same, that everything is in exactly the right continuity-order and header-structure and category, that all the disambigs are exact - that absolutely everything fits into its little imaginary box, and that nothing breaks the rules by coming out of its box unless there's a seventeen-week debate about it first. ORGANIZATION IS IMPORTANT, but - with the greatest of actual respect to our new editors, because it is thankless hugging busywork and its impressive that you're dedicated to it - as Sipher says, this "moving of the furniture" is all that newer-guard editors actually seem to want to do, or to be capable of doing. It's very, very easy to paste a one-or-two sentence nugget of information from AVP into the wiki, which is why so many people do it and why it got so out of control - but you don't see anyone falling over themselves to add Spacewarp's Log stuff, even before the two-week delay, because it's not presented in nugget form, it's a piece of prose that you'd actually have to - shock, horror - read and summarize, and - oh christ no - it's NOT full of references to pre-existing things so you can't just paste it into existing articles or throw the AVP stub template in. When - just for a recent example - I can go to the article of a major character like Ironhide or Thundercracker and still find tons of material that needs filling in, that says "it doesn't matter that it's been ten years, there is a lot more important work to do than making sure that header is a level 2 or a level 3 one." - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:32, 12 January 2016 (EST)
::::I just want to be clear that people who take the time to do "busywork" like, say, fixing links so they no longer lead to a redirect page are ''unquestionably welcome to''. That's good, that has a tangible benefit to our wiki (reducing server load). That kind of "busywork" is ''absolutely'' okay. It's the seemingly-endless stream of talks about reorganizing hundreds of pages, arguments over disambigs, and yeah, the "easy" trivia-nugget work that's grinding here. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:01, 12 January 2016 (EST)
:I get the concern over the AVP-inspired editors, and even counseled Giggidy about this very issue above. In hindsight, I probably should've waited for the dust to settle more on the GoBots matter before suggesting something similar for different reasons, but like I said, the idea was sparked by the above discussion about the Ongoing Template.
:And I completely agree that a Major/Minor Fiction split would likely lead to more arguments than benefits, which is why I also proposed Ongoing/Not Ongoing. That's completely binary and objective. It's not subject to debate over which fiction is "More Ongoing" than another.
:I agree that the IDW links above the main character images remove any need for my proposal...for the characters who have them. My concern rested with characters like Jazz or Soundwave who do not have IDW subpages, and that continuity is 21 or 24 listings down on their Fiction TOCs, nestled between things like ''Q-Robo'' and ''Henkei! Henkei!''. But, as I believe Chip suggested on the Allspark, a way to resolve all this is to just be more lenient with allowing IDW subpages in the first place. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:31, 12 January 2016 (EST)

==Continuity Stream Bullshit==
I suggested this on the Allspark, and there's some momentum for it so I'll put it here.

As M Sipher said above, arbitrary furniture movement is bad. That said, all the continuity stream minutae is even worse, and serves only to bloat our pagecount with duplicated information in articles that will only ever be stubs forever. Why do both [[Primax 984.0 Gamma]] and [[The Transformers (issue)]] exist? Or [[Marvel Comics continuity]] if you think the continuity is more important than what the Universal Stream indicator actually decodes to, although if there weren't significant opposition I'd argue that since the stream encoding to a piece of fiction is a 1:1 mapping that we should respect that directly.

Since a Universal Stream page will not contain any useful information other than its actual stream indicator (and VERY occasionally some detail such as "this universe is destroying another one"), I'd like to propose that all universal stream pages either be redirected to the actual single piece of fiction that the stream indicator decodes to, or to the Continuity timeline page that best describes it - and somewhere on **that** page we try and find a place for the universal stream number. Perhaps in the same fashion we originally handled alternate names - directly below the introductory paragraph, in bold?

If this causes problems, feel free to disregard... but I've heard enough discontent about the matter and there's been enough push for it there that I feel confident enough to put my next foot forward on this happening. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 10:32, 13 January 2016 (EST)

My proposal is that rather than stream pages, major continuities would all get pages. a Marvel g1 universe page, a sunbow cartoon universe a Classicsverse page and so on. Then, stream numbers used in universe would be redirect to those pages. Minor streams would get redirected to the current list pages we have now; AVP additions to minor streams would go in notes on the works main page. (For example, Ulchtar would go in the notes of that videogame)[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 10:51, 13 January 2016 (EST)

Talk:Amalgamous Prime

2016-01-10T21:06:51Z

Lush City: /* Merge Proposal */

I don't have Exiles yet - is there reason to believe AP isn't just Liege Maximo's real name, since LM is a title?
: It's not used in the book as a title. For example, it's always parsed "Liege Maximo," not "the Liege Maximo." Also, it was declared a title in G2, and Aligned continuity doesn't necessarily have to follow that. It could merely be his name now. It certainly didn't follow a lot of other stuff regarding the 13. (*coughcoughAlphaTrioncoughcough*) Either way, it's not our place to jump to such conclusions quite yet, not without more information. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:17, 4 October 2011 (EDT)

: Does "Exiles" state for sure that the guy with big horns is Amalgamous? People who have been to Botcon have mentioned Liege Maximo's new design as still having horns and looking just like Loki, so I find it a bit odd that there's apparently two Loki lookalikes in the Thirteen. --[[Special:Contributions/71.17.207.182|71.17.207.182]] 23:20, 4 October 2011 (EDT)
:: Liege Maximo at BotCon was a huge hulking, monstrous spikey dude. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:23, 4 October 2011 (EDT)
::: Huh. Wonder why he was said to look like Loki, then. --[[Special:Contributions/71.17.207.182|71.17.207.182]] 23:27, 4 October 2011 (EDT)
:::: If I were being catty, I'd mention that people at BotCon also said Hasbro claimed they were never ever making any Transformers Prime toys. Human memory is pretty bad. Furthermore, BotCon Prima and cartoon Prima don't match. There's some changes involved in the translation from Story Bible to Published Fiction, and these aren't changes we can readily examine, with the BotCon sneak peeks being exclusive to those in the room. Let's give more consideration to the aired cartoon and the published book. If it's revealed later that Amalgamous and Liege Maximo are the same, we'll deal with that later. As for now, that's too much guesswork. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:40, 4 October 2011 (EDT)
::::: I agree that we shouldn't be doing any guesswork, this site is all about officially released facts, no? I request that the images of specific character artwork be taken down from Amalgamous, Nexus, A3, Vector and the Fallen's pages. We know that Prima is the leader, so we guess that's the one who is in front of the group, and that he's to have the Star Saber sword, so it makes sense that character is charging into battle with a broadsword. Solus Prime we're told is the female, hence the only female would be Solus. The rest have literally been guesswork: Alpha Trion being the one with a beard, Vector being the one with a disc in his chest are guesses using previous incarnations as "likelihoods", which I don't believe we should be using; the whole "anything you know from past generations of the brand may or may not be factual in the new continuity" plays into that. It is entirely guessed that Amalgamous is the Loki-looking one (even though the design for the Liege Maximo at BotCon '11 was VERY Loki-like), Nexus has no basis except "I guess his limbs are kinda different?", and Megatronus' page has a shot of TWELVE of the Thirteen, it's likely he's not even in it (being the traitor and all)! Until we have something more concrete, I move that we should not have specific pictures of those characters on the pages. I quote fellow use Jeysie in saying "We're interesting solely in being right, not first." --[[User:Karhukjnsi|Karhukjnsi]] 05:46, 5 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::: Well if no one feels comfortable about it, then we should take them down. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:09, 5 October 2011 (EDT)

:::::: Yeah I think most of the images need to be held till we have some sort of official word on who's who. Anyone who has connections, feel free to see if you can get a lead or else we need to wait till/if Hasbro does another QandA... or Botcon. --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 13:02, 5 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I think Prima, Alpha Trion, and Vector are fine. Solus is borderline, and Amalgamous's and Nexus's images are too speculative. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 14:42, 5 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::: Again, Prima is easily identifiable as the leader, and Solus by being the female, I don't believe the rest should have specifically matched images yet from that artwork. Too many people rely on this wiki for ''correct'' information, not "likely" guesses. Never in Transformers have I ever felt so strongly for anything apart from the Thirteen (as pathetic and nerdy it may sound), I stand by my request that the specific images be taken down from all members except for Prima and Solus Prime. --[[User:Karhukjnsi|Karhukjnsi]] 15:41, 5 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'd even argue Vector Prime, since the only thing going for him is "he has a circle in his chest", and that other Thirteen in the background with the energy ball around him also has that. Prima, Alpha and Solus, IMO, are the only clear ones. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 17:01, 5 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::"Vector Prime"'s face is the Autobot symbol, so. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 17:17, 5 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::Unfortunately with both "Vector's" head and "A3"s beard, they both fall under that horrible "past generations...may not be factual" safety net that Hasbro set up as their own fiction-insurance, so even ''they'' may not be similar to previous incarnations, no matter the similarities. --[[User:Karhukjnsi|Karhukjnsi]] 05:22, 6 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::Not to contradict myself above, but we have seen these guys at BotCon, and they retained these elements. I think willful ignorance is just as wrong as overstepping our bounds. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:15, 6 October 2011 (EDT)--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:15, 6 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::: Then would it be wrong to put the Loki-looking guy on the Liege Maximo's page? His art was very blatant concerning that, what with the horns and green. Both Alpha Trion and Vector Prime looked ''extremely'' similar to their previous incarnations (it seems Vector just got a new cape, an hourglass and went gold), unlike Nexus or Maximo. I'm fine if there's guessing, but let it be known to others outside this discussion that it is guessing rather than straight up fact (which I know you've done with the picture for "Alpha Trion"). Preventing misinformation (or, 'willful ignorance' as you put it) is not as bad as overstepping, as the latter action, more often than not, gets people into ''more'' trouble. Again, if you want to keep A3 and Vector Prime using the "likely from before" mindset (which I thought this wiki was against), then let the Liege Maximo page keep the art of the Loki-looking member. --[[User:Karhukjnsi|Karhukjnsi]] 16:20, 6 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Unless there's a Liege Maximo design I'm unaware of... those horns on "Amalgamous" look ''nothing'' like Liege Maximo's roided up Satan horns. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:49, 6 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::There was a new design at BotCon '11 (likely also at '10), the horns were different. The design had him green primarily, and horns like Marvel's Loki. The Loki/"Amalgamous" design matches up with that nigh perfectly, at least in regards to similarities from Loki. --[[User:Karhukjnsi|Karhukjnsi]] 15:06, 7 October 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Walky says higher up this discussion "Liege Maximo at BotCon was a huge hulking, monstrous spikey dude." so I don't know that it's definite that the Loki-looking dude is him. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:15, 7 October 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I don't know about Walky, but I ''was'' at the Hasbro Story Building panel at BotCon'11, I did see the Liege Maximo design, and the two main characteristics that stuck out at me were: Huge Loki-horns, and he was primarily green. --[[User:Karhukjnsi|Karhukjnsi]] 18:59, 9 October 2011 (EDT)

==Merge Proposal ==
Given the current policy of handling the 13 as single pagers across universes this is a merge proposal to unite Adaptus and Amalgamous on one page. "Amalgamous also known as Adaptus..." etc. Similar to how we did Alpha Prime and Primon
[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:07, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:The IDW fiction is still ongoing, unlike the original cartoon. I think such a merge would be unwise. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 12:09, 8 January 2016 (EST)
::I agree with Ascendron. They're best off as separate pages. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:22, 8 January 2016 (EST)
I am aware the IDW fiction is ongoing, but how does that effect the fact that they have already been conflated as the same person/concept? This is like merging Megatronus from RiD with The Fallen from the film.

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-08T17:41:19Z

Lush City: /* Epilogue: It's all over but the crying */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
====Walky Calls It====
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

===Epilogue: It's all over but the crying===
:This was supposed to be a short reponse to Lush City, but it quickly grew, and as it did so, I began to re-evaluating my initial opinion on this matter. Bear with me through this wall of text, won't you please?

:<nowiki>*</nowiki>clears throat* I think part of the reason some many of the editors on this wiki, including myself, have grown to resent GoBots so much is because of the mass amount of bullshit that is generated every time they're discussed. This discussion grew more in a day than most others do in a week; even big, huge drawn-out arguments like [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|the Grand Galvatron fiasco]] that have reached an ''ungodly'' length pale in comparison to this one, and there are several other GoBots discussions just like this one. You know what they all have in common? They ''NEVER. GET. ANYWHERE''. This exact discussion has been rehashed several times over the course of the past 6 years or so, and I imagine that's pretty tiresome for the people who have been here to each and every massive GoBots bitchfest unfold one after the other. Hell, I've only had to deal with one day of GoBots discussion and I'm already sick of it! I can't even ''begin'' to imagine what it must be like to deal with this shit on multiple different occasions over the course of several years, but I bet it's unpleasant.

:When we first starting mentioning the GoBots and making pages to discuss their relevence to Transformers, it was like taking a puppy we found on the street and bringing him into our house. He was so cute and harmless, how could we ''not'' let him in? So we fed him and played with him and took care of him. As we did so, that cute little puppy slowly but surely grew into a vicious 80 pound behemoth that had a trail of destruction following it wherever it went. It may be the cutest dog ever, but it's harassing the neighbors and covering the house in fecal matter. Not only that, but it ate the sofa. It's more trouble than it's worth.

:Dog <s>metaphors</s> similes aside, seeing this discussion has really changed my tune regarding Go-Bots. It's fun to have it, yes, but not fun enough to justify the massive bitchfests that take place every time someone tries to discuss what the length and scope of GoBots coverage should be. When Walky said he was ending this argument, I don't think he was just talking about this one particular instance of the debate that took place over the last 24 hours so much as the entirety of the various GoBots arguments over the past six years. And perhaps it's for the best; it seems that the inclusion GoBots on {{SITENAME}} has brought nothing but suffering. I think we should really only be covering GoBots stuff from official Transformers fiction, and if we're honest, Renegade Rhetoric no longer falls into that category. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)

{{note|Somewhere around this point, I remembered that Walky had already kinda-sorta ended the debate. (I say "kinda-sorta" because it continued on in spite of this to some extent.). I took a look at what I'd written, said to myself "Well, shit. I gotta do ''something'' with that." So I slapped this note on here and posted the whole kit and kaboodle onto the community portal, relevance be damned. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 00:42, 8 January 2016 (EST)}}

:I get what you are saying, but does that make GoBots the problem, or the fighting? Even so, I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. We come together, debate, and reason out the best course of action, then keep on it until the situation changes and we come to a new consensus. That's exactly what a healthy Parliamentary body should do. When RR came up we discussed it and came to a decision, what I was showing concern about was Walky using judgment calls to prerserve demographic integrity, it felt a lot like there is an image of who this wiki is for, and that it would be enforced despite the actual editor/userbase. The idea that a wiki, or any community is served by the people instead of the other way around is a dangerous precedent so I am concerned of what will happen with future "culture clashes." [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 12:41, 8 January 2016 (EST)

==User:TAZ==
Someone should probably ban [[Special:Contributions/TAZ|User:TAZ]]. For whatever reason, he seems to really hate [[:File:DonMurphy.jpg]], and has gone out of his way to either blank the page or removes links to it. (I waited about half an hour before posting this in case he was hoping to get a kick out of someone mentioning him.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:44, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Done! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 18:48, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:23, 7 January 2016 (EST)

== Template proposal ==

I'm getting really sick of cleaning up fiction note templates, so, hey, here's an idea. Every single one from now on has to actually be brought up here before the community before it's implemented and not done willy-nilly by one person or a small group of editors. I realize that, as a wiki, we are going to inherently have continuity boners, but the recent trend of drowning character pages in notes is annoying and intrusive. The idea that we need to mention every point of continuity minutiae even in articles like fucking [[universal greeting]] is obnxious and needs to ''stop''. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:13, 8 January 2016 (EST)
:I agree. Things like "Regeneration One is a continuation of the Marvel Comics continuity" don't need to be in the middle of character write-ups. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:30, 8 January 2016 (EST)

Talk:Amalgamous Prime

2016-01-08T17:07:12Z

Lush City:

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-08T03:19:24Z

Lush City: /* We're all sick of arguing about GoBots */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)
====Walky Calls It====
So anyway, I see a bunch of votes in favor from people who've actually been on this site more than five minutes, versus mostly one folk who's admitted they've done exactly what was pissing us all off to begin with -- ie, asking AVP stuff for the express purpose of making stuff canonical. Like, literally gaming our decade-old website in bad faith. With that in mind, INCLUDING THE KIND OF IMPORTANT FACT THAT THIS WEBSITE IS NOT ACTUALLY A DEMOCRACY ANYWAY, I pass Chris McFeely's motion, as your Emperor-King. It is done! Discussion over, forever and ever and ever. The wiki is saved. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:14, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:One person? I count at least 7, with only one who had just signed up. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:21, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:And just because you own the wiki, doesn't mean that all decisions are up to you, nor are they all necessarily correct. Ex: The splitting out of the G2 Gobots pages from their main G1 versions. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:29, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I mean... it kind of does? He owns the place. He's the head admin. He has veto power. The userbase voting on things is just convention, not actual rules. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 06:59, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:: Sigh, "more than five minutes" was hyperbole. What I meant is editors who have been here since 2006 instead of WEEKS. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:33, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::First recorded activity of Sky Shadow: August 2011. My first recorded activity: Febuary 2013. S.H.I.E.L.D Agent's: April 2015. Giggidy's: June 2015. Foffy's: December 2015. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 06:41, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::: Thank you for helping me out! You're handing my own point back to me giftwrapped. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 06:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I doubt this counts for anything, but I've been ''reading'' the wiki since, like, 2011 or so. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 06:54, 7 January 2016 (EST)

So, Chris makes a proposal at 19:46 on 1/6. This is something that he's specifically floated past the forum where old-school wiki editors hang out and driven up buy in, so they he naturally gets a slew of votes immediately, sans any discussion. I rebut, to the best of my ability, and over the course of (checks watch) eleven hours, votes start to come in on an admittedly hot-button topic. A disproportionate number of votes come in from the younger, newer editors, many of whom seem to have come in specifically because of an interest in the material being covered. (Which, in and of itself, might tell you something.) The vote starts to not go towards the proposal, so, again, after less than half a day of debate, Walky calls it. Not because he's so clearly winning, but specifically because he's losing. Well, yeah, I guess it is your wiki, but I never got the impression that this meant the rest of us don't have a vote. I find that highly dispiriting.

Now, again, I'll point out what I said above. Normally for big decisions, we have a discussion. There's a back-and-forth. People state their cases, other people answer them. And we have a bit of that here. But normally we'd debate this for two, three days, let everyone have their say before we even START voting.

As to the quality of the editors, you're absolutely right, we're a younger crowd. But three of us voting are in the top 10 for number of edits in the past month, and I'm much lower than I would have been before the 2 week delay on Ask Vector Prime. Hell, Foffy the Sheep ALONE has more edits in the past month than EVERYONE voting against him COMBINED. SHIELD too. We're the actual worker bees, keeping the wiki running.

I would suggest that our perspectives matter. I would suggest that it's normal and natural and healthy that the new guard looks at what the old guard is doing and says "we can do better" and vigorously attempts to do so. And, further, that it's normal and healthy for the old guard to look at what the new guard is doing, and say, "those crazy kids. They're ruining everything. Why, in our day..." And then the new kids can learn from the old, and the old can perhaps temper the new, and everyone wins. But short-circuiting that process because we're new and young is absolutely the wrong move, sends the wrong message, and will cause more harm than good in the future. I urge you to reconsider, and let the discussion and eventual vote run its course. Because, again, the cure may be worse than the disease.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:28, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:A bit of a digression, but I don't think what you said about me and several others being top contributors is very accurate. If I make 200 edits to fix a link (such as going through pages and changing every instance of <nowiki>[[Lightfoot]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]]</nowiki>, for example), have I really contributed more than someone who made one edit to write an entire summary? That's a matter of opinion, really. To clarify, I'm not saying that people who make minor edits are worthless, I'm just saying that the number of edits you make aren't necessarily a good representation of how much you've contributed. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Chris, Walky, Thy, Sipher, Repowers, Grum, me, Xaaron, Jalaguy and Tigerpaw28 vs Escargon, SHIELD, you, Lush, Sky Shadow, Foffy, and... IKY, who I've never heard of before. That's 10 to 7 in favour, even without Walky's proclamation. I'd argue against Walky using veto power here if there was a clear consensus against it, but there isn't. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 08:49, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I'm, uh, late to the party, but I would definitely throw my support behind the McFeely Proposal. And that's coming from someone who'd fight tooth and claw to keep other AVP content on the wiki. But regardless, Walky still had every right to call it as he did. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 09:12, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::Also late to the party, and also in favor of McFeely's proposal. As he said it is effectively Go-Bots fanfiction. There's next nothing in the Rhetoric answers that actually ties it to Transformers fictionally. [[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 13:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:There's not a clear ANYTHING, because the debate lasted less than 12 hours with many prominent voices having yet to weigh in. What we have is schism, and typically on an issue this big we want an overwhelming majority. The vote is extremely skewed by the front waiting, due to drumming up support for the proposition offsite. More than half of the yes votes came immediately after the proposition was made, with no votes trickling in gradually but steadily all night.
:But, really, Riptide, your opinion doesn't matter on this at all. Neither does mine, or Escargons. Walky has decided that this topic doesn't warrant debate, so the only person whose opinion matters on undoing this decision is Walky's. I'm hoping he at least reads and consider is my argument. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Well, yes, that's my ''point''. We have a schism, which is why I think it's fair enough that the head admin gets to call it in the absence of an overwhelming majority. Should he have waited longer? Probably, but I don't think the ''concept'' is inherently unfair. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:06, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::The seniority argument is a bit creepy though. Do we really want to say "you've only been here since last June, you count less"? I've been here since 2007, I don';t think it helps anyone if I can pull out the Old Guard card if I'm having a spat with someone more recent. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 14:23, 7 January 2016 (GMT)
:Giggidy, whatever you have to say on this matter is absolutely worthless to me. As you yourself have admitted, you tried to create canon on this wiki by gaming AVP for answers. The problem is you. Why would I listen to you? The weeks-old folks are in the top edits now? That's because the current AVP-heavy focus is discouraging all the other regular editors, because it's such an avalanche of bad faith canon addition that to some it just doesn't seem worth it any more to contribute. If there's a dispute? One side Asks Vector Prime. It's a fucking cancer. It's squeezing out the rest of this wiki. Nobody's here anymore to finish up articles that need updating, they're just here to create canon via AVP. That is how my limited time is wasted on here now, managing all this dumb AVP shit, and lately I've found it too aggravating to even bother. If you keep making this whole enterprise a worthless bad-faith chore? Yeah, the website's going to go away, because why am I spending fucking money on this? So, yeah, I kinda do make the final call! Super sorry, guy who's only been here since June and only does the shit that frustrates everyone else away from here! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 13:34, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::That's...really meanspirited Walky. You have every right to make that call, but a wiki like any community is a evolving system, if the majority of the user/editor base has shifted to Y, then as a wiki, Y is the nature of the scene. The idea that the community doesn't matter because of what the owner believes is a real strike against the spirit of this all. A straight vote would have been fine, but the precedent that if the editors shift one way that the wiki tells them to hug off, instead of the wiki naturally evolving with it's users is a dangerous precedent. We all came here as a celebration and communion of our fandom, what fandom means and how we express that differs but we all hold the true heart of the fan within us, and no one deserves to be shut down because there passion doesn't match up totally with anothers. To a significant portion, that Ask Vector Prime shit ''is'' there Transformers, it's there fandom, and cutting it out or stomping it down because you feel it should not be here is to neglect the heart love and passions others have for this. I spent all of my college career and most of High School here, I have spent hundreds hours on this site being whisked away into this fantasy; seeing countless adventures and mythos and drawing connections and ties between lore like some comparative mythologist of old. That was ''my'' fandom, that was ''my'' passion, and I know it is not yours and I would never say yours doesnt have a right to exist; we are equal here and there is no reason why we cannot peacefully and respectfully co exist and give proper due to ''all'' facets of the fandom. This is a demographic shift, a culture clash, between the "original" community (itself not how the wiki began as) and a newer culture grown from the seeds sown by our for bearers and a shifting attitude in the media that has changed this little mystery cult over time. But that's okay. Fans have grown up gone pro, influenced fiction, beget fans of there own and now what they bred has come into it's own. I am not asking for a free pass on anything, I am not trying to fight for special treatment, all I am saying is that differing views and experiences of the fandom and the wiki itself should be allowed to exist , grow and change without one voice lording dominant because they are the owner.

You know what Tf means to us, you know what it means to all of us. We ''all'' do. So please dont declare this war, please, allow everyone on the wiki the right to act edit and function for the harmony of us all and our readers. We can do this, together. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 22:19, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::I, uh...
::Huh.
::I honestly thought I was helping. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:55, 7 January 2016 (EST)

==User:TAZ==
Someone should probably ban [[Special:Contributions/TAZ|User:TAZ]]. For whatever reason, he seems to really hate [[:File:DonMurphy.jpg]], and has gone out of his way to either blank the page or removes links to it. (I waited about half an hour before posting this in case he was hoping to get a kick out of someone mentioning him.) -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:44, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:Done! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 18:48, 7 January 2016 (EST)
::Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 19:23, 7 January 2016 (EST)