MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

MediaWiki:Tech

2022-01-06T22:21:05Z

McFly:

This '''Tech Portal''' is to serve as a clearinghouse for information related to technical issues on Transformers Wiki.

This page's purpose is to hold information-- any tech issues, questions or initiatives should be discussed on the main [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]] pages where everyone can weigh in. This page isn't an attempt to split-out discussion, merely to archive its results.

==Information==
===Basic Maintenance===
* Linode's given us a lot of new tricks. The big thing to keep in mind is that the new wiki depends upon two servers which are backed up nightly:
** The Database Server: This is running MySQL, and if we lose it, everyone's hard work goes down the toilet.
** The Application Server: This is running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix. If we lose it, we lose the mediawiki installation, all customizations (MonacoBook, GoBoxes, etc.), and even if we revive the wiki, it won't look the same.

* There are, however, a lovely middle layer: The Caching Servers. Each of these has a nigh-identical configuration, so if one dies, we simply don't care, as we can rebuild it very quickly from one of its brothers.
** Each Caching Server runs Squid and Memcached, and their IPs need to be registered in Mediawiki's LocalSettings.php so that it knows to handle them properly. Failure to do so will break IP address blocks in Mediawiki, and will waste RAM on the Caching servers that could otherwise go to Memcached, a '''powerful''' object caching engine that accelerates everything we do by avoiding long database queries.
** Each Caching Server also needs to be registered with the LoadBalancer, by simply copying the configuration of one of its peers and changing the internal IP address to match.
** Finally, due to webcrawler abuse, each Caching Server also needs to be updated with new hostnames. If we start adding foreign-language wikis to the mix, we would have to add en.tfwiki.net, es.tfwiki.net (Spanish,) and so on. If we ever launch that GoBots sub-wiki, we already have gb.tfwiki.net enabled. These strings need to be added to the mySites ACL definitions in /etc/squid/squid.conf on EVERY Caching Server.

* Similarly, abusive webcrawlers are filtered by User-Agent via regexes in the /etc/squid/badbrowsers.conf file. Well-behaved bots can be removed accordingly, but again, make sure that your edits are done to ALL Caching Servers!
** (At some point, this needs to go into a change control system and set to rsync transparently.)
** If you edit these files, a config reload is all that you'll need. Don't waste time restarting Squid.

===Mighty Feature, Mighty Server Drain===
* The Go-Box!
* No, seriously, the Go-Box was originally written to poll [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:Goicons&action=raw| the Goicons template] each time it runs, as was the generator used for off-site signature blocks. So every time you pull up a page with a Gobox, the server polls itself for that list, using up a second connection, AND taxing the server to execute the PHP code.
* The GoBoxes are also called from MonacoBook, the TFWiki skin, so every time you pull up a page? You use up an Apache process JUST TO GRAB SOME RARELY-UPDATED XML.
* We've changed that to poll a file in <code>/var/lib/mediawiki/goicons.xml</code> instead, which is updated via a cron job. Make sure you replicate that whole deal if you ever duplicate the wiki, it's kinda important.
* Or, you could NOT replicate this step, and suffer the consequences of increased CPU load, and have an annoyed sysadmin. You don't want that.

===Coding Standards===
* Transformers Wiki:Semantic linking initiative
* I've had to make manual changes to the 1.19 codebase to function cleanly with PHP 5.4 and some long-deprecated functions used in our older codebase:
** MemcachedClient.php was defining parameters to the stream_select function directly in the function call. These variables are now defined prior to the function call. This change appears to be live in later versions of the client.
** ConfirmEdit was calling a wgSeedRandom function that has been deprecated. I've commented it out, as that seems to have been the accepted solution to the problem.

===Scripting===
* Transformers Wiki's editable javascript file is located at [[MediaWiki:Common.js]]. It can only be altered by admins.
* Your personal javascript file can be located at [[Special:Mypage/monacobook.js|User:Username/monacobook.js]] or [[Special:Mypage/monoobook.js|User:Username/monobook.js]]. You can use [[Special:Mypage/common.js|User:Username/common.js]] to affect all skins.
* [[User:Derik/javascript]] — Derik's loose documentation of the likely-to-be-useful Javascript functions on TFWiki. (You will not be able to use any of these functions without editing either the site's or your personal .js file though.)

===Hosting===

''Minor note: Much of these notes are here to keep us all in the loop, and should be wikified a little more than I'm going to get to tonight.''

* The current wiki, post Bookworm, is a metered, unmanaged {{w|Virtual private server|VPS}} provided by [http://www.slicehost.com/ Slicehost.]
** As of January 2013, service has been relocated to [http://linode.com/ Linode]
** This provides us with a dedicated server under the Xen virtualization software. Our Linux distribution of choice was Debian 5.0, on a Xen-aware 2.6.24 SMP-capable kernel.
*** Now Debian 6!
* As of June 2009, it is running in a semi-optimized state, with MediaWiki configured to utilize a {{w|Squid cache|Squid}} reverse proxy cache for all anonymous users, and a small {{w|memcached}} instance for all database queries.
** As of May 2011, functions are split between two boxes: Front-end hosts Squid, Apache, and Postfix, and the Back-end server hosts MySQL and Memcached. Disk IO contention has dropped to usable, if not ideal levels.
*** Functions are now split to three layers: 1 MySQL DB server, 1 Application server, running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix, and 2 Squid/Memcached servers. Load Balancers are run by a Linode-managed NodeBalancer.
** Squid has also been updated to use the AUFS file handler instead of UFS. This uses more disk I/O, but parallelizes cache access for better concurrency. I'm also investigating the COSS handler, but that's currently untested.
* MySQL is largely using InnoDB tables, which can be backed up in a live state, with the purchase of a hefty Innobackup license. This is not in the cards, so we are instead using LVM snapshots from Slicehost. This has been tested, and functions as expected.
** Still being done this way.
* FULL local filesystem backups are done via snapshot nightly and weekly. While these cannot be exported to another server, they do allow us to revert to the previous day's database/configuration/file library without much hassle.
** Long term, we should find someone to host an rsync backup of the entire /var/lib/mediawiki directory, along with an offsite replica of the MySQL database. While it would take a while to reupload the data, this would effectively preserve the wiki in the event of a complete catastrophic datacenter failure. (We'd be down for a while, but we wouldn't lose more than a day's work.)
* PHP session handling is done via the file handler, as the default Debian PHP package does NOT support the mm handler.
** This was a key issue with many of our page loading glitches when the wiki first launched on this platform.
====Configuration Settings====
Memcached: 192MB allocated per Squid cache
APC: 40MB allocated

On Echo (the apache/squid server,) noatime and data=writeback is enabled in /etc/fstab as of 6/24/2011. This should reduce the overall I/O load on the system, ideally giving us some added performance.

Noatime is still enabled on all servers, as per Linode defaults.

====Software versions====
* OS: Debian 7.0, Kernel 3.11.6
* Squid: 2.7
* Apache: 2.2.22
* Memcached: 1.4.5
* MySQL: 5.1.66
* PHP: 5.4.4
* MediaWiki: 1.19.5

===Future ideas===
* It is possible to host a Mediawiki installation on a Cloud Hosting provider, such as Rackspace's Mosso, or Amazon's EC2. This would basically give us a bomb-proof installation, ''as long as we also maintain proper backups.''
* Ideally, we should split the site into multiple servers: One for the database, one for the Squid cache(s), and one for the Apache webserver/memcached.
** Done, more or less. Memcached runs on the Squid servers.
* As long as we're at it, a local DB replica would allow us to back up just the database more frequently, without any impact on site performance. If we really want to get fancy, we could keep weekly, daily, and hourly backups, which could then be recovered within minutes. Right now, if we roll back the server, we go back in time for both the database '''and''' the images.
** Soon!
* Memcached only gets better as we allocate more RAM. This may become a priority, if we have the RAM to spare on the current box.
** Done and done, we're running pretty smoothly at present.

===Extensions===
* Aside from the ones that were blindly imported from the old wiki, we're now using the SpamBlacklist extension, with a modification to support Reverse DNS blacklist lookups. In short, make the wrong edit, or come from the wrong IP address, and you won't even get to make your edit.
* We are running a slightly newer version of the ConfirmEdit extension, specifically the one for Mediawiki 1.16 (it works with 1.15 fortunately) primarily because the newer version comes with QuestyCaptcha, which does a lot better job of keeping the spammers out.
** ConfirmEdit is now the 1.19 version, keeping things in-line with the Debian package manager.
* Multi-Category Search is presently disabled, it was borking the server completely. We'll need to do an error trace later.

[[Category:TFWiki.net]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-03-24T03:12:03Z

McFly: /* Informing new users of the recent anti-spam measures */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2014-01-07T18:20:22Z

McFly: /* tfwiki.info vs tfwiki.net */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2013-12-11T22:15:27Z

McFly: /* Bing */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


==Batchtaster?==

Really? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 18:19, 1 January 2013 (EST)

== Captions ==

I have often found myself simply reading this website for entertainment because it just appeals to my sense of humor that much. I have often found myself wanting to somehow upvote or like a caption because it was just that good. Is there a way to do this? If not, can there be? [[User:Tourny|Tourny]] 20:59, 5 January 2013 (EST)
:I don't think that'd ever happen, because at the end of the day, this a Transformers wiki, not a 'post your Transformers jokes here' website. The jokes aren't and never should be the main focus, they're just a fun side effect. If anything, such a system would kind of legitimise the people who show up and do just want to use this place as a place to post their 'hilarious' Transformers jokes without contributing anything useful, and god knows we don't want that... [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 04:52, 6 January 2013 (EST)
::A most welcome way of doing it would be to point out the captions you like by posting to your facebook or twitter or what have you, especially with a link to the TFWiki page in question. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:18, 6 January 2013 (EST)

== Aligned character page main images ==

Since we've finally beun to treat the Aligned characters like we do characters of other continuities by disambiguating them by franchise, does anyone else feel that a bunch of characters with (WFC) disambigs having their Prime designs as their main image feels a little off? I mean, [[Thundercracker (Armada)]] uses his Armada design as his main image despite his Cybertron depiction being his most prominent one. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the WFC designs be the main images for those characters who bear the (WFC) disambig and such? Especially since our policy says, "the main image [of a character's page] should be their original 'real world' form". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:34, 7 January 2013 (EST)
:Not sure why it's there for Thundercracker, but characters like [[Sideways (RID)]] and [[The Fallen]] use their later body designs for their mainpics. It's the most prominent way they've appeared, same as Sideways and Fallen. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 00:40, 7 January 2013 (EST)
::The only reason Sideways has his Armada body at the top of the page is that there is no art of the RID body. His packaging image was a photo of his toy and he hasn't appeared in that body anywhere in fiction. The Fallen has his movie body because, well, it was our most popular page for a year or two, because of the movies, and so he was a special case. Regardless, a part of me is pretty okay with the Aligned guys having their Prime bodies at the top, ignoring all standards. That feels a lot different to me than the disambiguation parenthetical, which is there for organization, not for looks or presentation like the main image is. But my feelings are not super strong. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:31, 7 January 2013 (EST)
:::I think we should stick with the Prime images. I'm basically okay with the disambig change at this point after not being on board at first, but I think keeping their Prime main images will help mitigate the potential confusion or blurring of the lines that Aligned seems to always foster. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 05:09, 7 January 2013 (EST)
::::I think for the time being, Prime images make the most sense. ''Going into the future'', I think additional different-looking cartoons in the Aligned continuity would be a decent argument for returning to WFC bodies, because at that point they're simply one of many looks, instead of the less prominent of two. -[[User:LV|LV]] 11:49, 7 January 2013 (EST)

==Continuing spam==
With the spam continuing, even with captchas and email activation turned on, are we to assume that it's some actual poor bastards sitting there copypasting nonsense about handbags into pages? Would a possible solution be trivia-style verification questions? Something most TF fans would know, or could otherwise find out easily, but that a bored spammer would lack the initiative to find out? Like 'who is the Combaticon leader?' or 'what faction does Hound belong to?' and so on. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 14:57, 8 January 2013 (EST)
:''Are'' Captchas and email activation turned on? I'm not sure how they could be. These are obviously bots, and last I heard we'd only turned on the requirement to register before you can edit.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 15:05, 8 January 2013 (EST)
::Yeah, log out and check the account creation page, there's a reCAPTCHA thingmabob on there now. Sipher mentioned activation emails being turned on in the spam discusson further up the page, but looking at the sign-up page again, email isn't required, so I guess it can't be... [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 15:14, 8 January 2013 (EST)

::There are [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Anti-spam_features several simple steps] that would improve matters immediately and immensely - [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TitleBlacklist TitleBlacklist] to block the likes of <nowiki>[[Talk:Something/]] and [[Talk:/Something]]</nowiki>, preventing users from creating User: pages with their first edit by requiring the Autoconfirmed permission to do so, adding a [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgSpamRegex $wgSpamRegex] to LocalSettings.php to prevent pages from being saved if they contain obvious trigger words like "viagra", "cialis", "online casino", "ugg boots" and so forth. They just aren't being used. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 19:20, 8 January 2013 (EST)

::reCaptcha is a piece of poop, security-wise. I'm also reluctant to add more extensions at the moment, due to performance issues, BUT. Find something simple and lightweight to REPLACE reCaptcha, and we can talk. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 05:38, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
:::$wgSpamRegex isn't an extension, it's a line of code you can add various banned words to (i.e., if "viagra" is in the list and someone tries to save a page that includes it, the page wouldn't save and they'd get a error message telling them why it wouldn't save. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
::::You know what WASN'T on? wgEmailConfirmToEdit. That may make a LOT more sense, as I'd wager that spambots aren't actually including legit emails. Email authentication is NOT the same thing. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:50, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

:I still don't think reCaptcha is helping, as noticed, and it doesn't have anything like, say, a lockout policy, so I've bit the bullet and added a modified version of the SpamBlacklist extension, adding in RBL support and some basic language filters in one go. It's reasonably light on DB traffic, too. Will it slow the flood? That remains to be seen, but they're still getting around it right now. I also think I've resolved the IP blocking issue, so we might (might!) be okay now. Turns out that adding a load balancer in front of the Squid caches hurts Mediawiki's IP detection logic. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 20:21, 16 January 2013 (EST)
::Alternate suggestion: could the system be modded to block an editor from creating an article until one of their edits is marked as patrolled (and thus approved as legitimate)?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:53, 24 March 2013 (EDT)

== We are moving very very soon. ==

That means at some point within the next few hours to few days the wiki will go to Read Only mode while McFly moves stuff around. Then we won't be hemorrhaging cash and things will run smoothly and we'll all have boners, even the ladies. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:12, 9 January 2013 (EST)
:I've got one right now! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 17:23, 9 January 2013 (EST)

Okay, so, uh, what the hell happened? -- [[User:Spydersix|spyder]][[User Talk:Spydersix|Use this!]] 00:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
:We have moved. Some things are still being tweaked. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:46, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
::Well, I knew we moved, just I thought nothing would look different. Oh, well. -- [[User:Spydersix|spyder]][[User Talk:Spydersix|Use this!]] 00:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
:::New Mediawiki software version. Some things got a little mixed up in the move, and newer versions decided to put the hammer down on bad practices. Other things are just... being refactored from a distinct lack of notes. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 01:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
::::Most of what's left is going to be us rejiggering some templates to more efficient code, and documenting the snot out of things so McFly doesn't name his first ulcer after us.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:02, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
::::: http://science.education.nih.gov/home2.nsf/Educational+ResourcesResource+FormatsOnline+Resources+High+School/928BAB9A176A71B585256CCD00634489 :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
:::::: Pedantry aside, I CAN name my migraines after you. Stress exacerbates THOSE. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 20:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
::::::: Which migraine's stronger then? Madness or little Sanity? :p - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

===Stuffs what have gone wrong(er)===
User CSS files aren't being called post-move. Basically, the stuff [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Configuration_settings#CSS.2FJs here] was previously all set true, now it's set false. [Is [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] even working?] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 07:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
: Compared old LocalSettings.php to new, wgUseSiteJs/wgUseSiteCss were NOT set over there. If you're not just making blanket assumptions, please point my not-MediaWiki-understanding ass to the right place. Remember, I built the house, but others (Scout? Derik?) actually laid out the rooms and installed the appliances. My understanding of Mediawiki extends out to "Ooh, shiny mediawiki package in apt repositories..." Anything else is a '''Wild. Ass. Guess.''' --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 20:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
::I'm not an expert ('''And I can't see the Wiki's LocalSettings.php myself to be sure!'''), but I have played around with MediaWiki a fair bit, so I'm beyond the "oh, shiny" stage and I know where to look at in http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Contents .
::For instance, I don't know what $wgAutoConfirmAge and $wgAutoConfirmCount are currrently set to. If the createpage and upload ''have'' been set, but those two variables are ''not'' set, a fairly minimal barrier would be two days & four edits before you can create pages and upload files - certainly, very few spambots will hang around for two whole days before editing!

<pre>
$wgAutoConfirmAge = 86400 * 2; # Two days times 86400 seconds/day
$wgAutoConfirmCount = 4;
</pre>

::If they HAVEN'T been set, you can add them with:
<pre>
# Only users with accounts in autoconfirmed group
# (registered accounts at least as old as $wgAutoConfirmAge and having at least as many edits as $wgAutoConfirmCount)
# can create pages:
$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['createpage'] = false;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['createpage'] = false;
$wgGroupPermissions['autoconfirmed']['createpage'] = true;

# Only users with accounts in autoconfirmed group
# (registered accounts at least as old as $wgAutoConfirmAge and having at least as many edits as $wgAutoConfirmCount)
# can upload files:
$wgGroupPermissions['*' ]['upload'] = false;
$wgGroupPermissions['user' ]['upload'] = false;
$wgGroupPermissions['autoconfirmed']['upload'] = true;
</pre>
::-[[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 10:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

===Broken templates===
{{tl|cal-date}} is broken, but I'm not template savvy enough to fix it. Anyone want to have a go? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
:Ja, I will fix it. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:15, 17 January 2013 (EST)
::$%^&* I'm getting ''closer'' to fixing it. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:02, 17 January 2013 (EST)
:::''*cries piteously*'' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:43, 17 January 2013 (EST)
::::I've just had a go and I think that's sorted it! Not sure if there are any other broken templates lurking out there... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:58, 20 January 2013 (EST)
===Storylink===
Are the storylinks looking odd for anyone else? They appear as full size text without the surrounding box from before for me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:29, 20 January 2013 (EST)
:Yeah, storylinks, note boxes, disambig boxes, organisation templates (eg. listing comics issues) and episode/issue/etc. infoboxes are all not displaying correctly. I assume that the folks who know what they're doing with this kind of stuff are working on getting them fixed.. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 12:42, 20 January 2013 (EST)
::I think that's done it - or at least it's displaying normally for me now. Well done to all involved, much appreciated. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 17:04, 22 January 2013 (EST)

== Still Confused About All This ==

I just got registered so that I can always find this site.

When I search for Transformers Wiki, all I get is Teletraan 1 and I don't like that site as well. Heck, their information on BotShots is woefully unsatisfactory.

Did this site used to be that site or the other way around? Much of the information in articles looks copied from one site or the other.

Apologies if this is the wrong place to ask these questions. I was looking for an e-mail address or something and couldn't find it. {{unsigned|Haven13}}
:No worries! We were originally at Wikia, but split with them in September 2008 and went independent. Wikia are still operating the old version, but it doesn't get updated in a lot of areas.
:Where is it you're searching for Transformers Wiki? We come up first on Google when I search on there. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:16, 23 January 2013 (EST)
::Ooh! Ooh! Let me guess! BING. (Who are blocked for '''hammering''' our wee servers.) --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 23:52, 23 January 2013 (EST)
:::Well, I just searched for "transformers wiki" on bing.com and we were the first result. Followed by the wikia site, wikipedia's main Transformers page, and wikipedia's Transformers (film) page. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 07:01, 24 January 2013 (EST)

== Key things missing from toy sections on character pages ==

There are a couple of things most toy sections don't have that would probably be useful:
* a link to the page about the toyline - some articles have it, but they don't seem to be the majority.
* for characters who've been more than one faction in fiction, knowing what faction their toy was sold as would be useful, especially if the toyline's page isn't split into Autobots and Decepticons.
Just a couple of ideas. --[[User:Flicky1991|Flicky1991]] 16:45, 2 February 2013 (EST)
:More than once I have thought a link to the toyline would be handy. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:31, 2 February 2013 (EST)

== New Theme ==

So, according to Hasbro, basically the entire new theme of the Transformers brand is now Beast Hunters. So why not change the wiki theme from Animated to Beast Hunters? Just a suggestion,if people don't like it, whatever. -- [[User:Spydersix|spyder]][[User Talk:Spydersix|Use this!]] 12:15, 10 February 2013 (EST)
:That's a good idea. Even if not Beast Hunters specifically, a Prime-related theme would make more sense than Animated now, considering it's been a couple of years. --[[User:Flicky1991|Flicky1991]] 12:43, 10 February 2013 (EST)
:Yeah, sounds awesome! I'm in favor of a TFP theme, when do we change? - [[User:Bumblejumper|Bumblejumper]] 22:42, 4 November 2013 (EST)
::Why would we change to TFP after it just ended rather conclusively?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 23:23, 4 November 2013 (EST)
:::Yeah, you've got a point, maybe TF4, when it comes out? - [[User:Bumblejumper|Bumblejumper]] 23:27, 4 November 2013 (EST)

== Trivia/notes sections ==

While I have nothing against a "trivia" or "notes" section (we are not Wikipedia, after all), it is my opinion that such a section should really only contain general notes about the article's subject that are either really trivial, or too general to fit into any specific paragraph. In particular, a noteworthy two-line bit regarding a specific toy in an article about a character with multiple toys might better fit into the specific toy's entry. For example, if the toy had a prototype that was very different from the final toy, the toy's entry isn't very long and the info about the prototype doesn't fill the page either, it could better be added to the toy's entry (since it's actual information about the toy, and its design process), rather than treating it as marginal trivia that is ostracized from the main portion of the article. Likewise, informative notes about fictional appearances of a character and after-the-fact retcons that affect the general perception of said character are better added as notes to the specific fiction writeup, rather than shoving it into the "notes" ghetto. So simply put: Short notes that are directly related to a specific part of the article might better be placed in that very part, rather than in an inflated catch-all "notes" section. Thoughts?--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] 15:45, 16 February 2013 (EST)

== Proposal to rename an article. ==

Hi, I'm proposing that the article "Brick Springhorn" be renamed to "Brick Springstern". Because of an error in the original comic, the character was given both names at various points during the story. A radio announcer called him "Springstern" and an editorial caption said he was "Springhorn". Usually, I'd agree with calling him "Springhorn". We can rationalise the mistake by saying the announcer was mistaken or drunk or something, and of course "Springhorn" is just a damn funny name. Except...

In the recent IDW reprint (which I was re-reading today), they have corrected the error, and he's now called "Springstern" throughout the comic. (Similar to how the IDW reprints corrected the Sherman Dam / Boulder Dam mistake).

Given that "Springstern" is now his name throughout the most recent printing, I'd suggest that most readers trying to look up the character will type "Springstern" into the search box. I know the redirect is in place, but I feel that maybe it should now be the other way round, with 'Horn' redirecing to a main article located at 'Stern'.

Advice and opinion welcome! --[[User:Ryan Frost|Ryan Frost]] 17:55, 14 March 2013 (EDT)
:This is terrible news, because you're probably right, and I hate it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:01, 14 March 2013 (EDT)

== Database dump ==

Hello! In my region I have a bit of an internet connection issue so I'm using WikiTaxi for offline wikia browsing. Since tfwiki is based on wikimedia system I was wondering if a database dump of current pages could possibly be generated for download? I see that it currently doesn't exist on your special: statistics page. I'd rather avoid any mirroring software as it would no doubt cause issues with the site so I hope someone can help with this.

Thank you in advance,

[[User:NocteDraconis|NocteDraconis]]
:I can't help personally, but it might be worth also posting this over in the [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83287 TFWiki discussion thread] on the Allspark board, it's frequented by several of the sysops/technical-know-how guys from here. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 09:05, 27 March 2013 (EDT)

:Thank you for pointing me in the right direction :)Though, I do hope someone will take notice of the question here as well. [[User:NocteDraconis|NocteDraconis]] 15:12, 27 March 2013 (EDIT)

== Proposing New Continuity Term for Multipath Books ==

Hi, I've been working on the first six Find Your Fate Junior books since I joined about a month ago, and just finished a summary for [[Dinobots Strike Back]]. While I'm still revising it, I just began editing relevant info into character pages, and starting with Starscream's, I found I needed a new term to explain how paths within the same book relate to each other without using the word "book". I didn't see anything that applies to this in the Continuities page, so I began referring to each individual book as its own "micro-continuity nexus". I think this is necessary to clarify that each book has its own tangle of paths which don't carry over to other books in the series, even though the books in that particular series are numbered by Ballantine.

For example, when moving from that first book onto Starscream's actions in [[Battle Drive]], I'd begin the first paragraph with: "In the next adjacent micro-continuity nexus, Starscream and Blitzwing were on a strafing-run to torch farmland, when..." since "later" isn't true with no possible book-to-book continuity, but I need to indicate that the summaries are moving on to the next book beyond just the storylinks in that section of the character page.

Please let me know if there's a better, established term I should be using for this phenomenon. Perhaps some term applied to video games with alternate endings? I don't know jack about TFVGs, and haven't studied those pages yet. I intend to add all relevant content from Dinobots Strike Back to the character pages soon, while it's still fresh in my mind, so please let me know if I'm at risk of muddying them up with a nonsensical term. [[User:Bumblevivisector|Bumblevivisector]] 23:49, 4 May 2013 (EDT)
: A couple years ago [[User:Hooper_X/SANDBALLS/Example_character_article/Games|I was trying to figure out how to describe video games with multiple playable characters, different endings, etc.]] and was leaning towards considering each individual path a [[splinter timeline]]. But that's just me and nobody else ever looked at what I came up with. So. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:51, 14 May 2013 (EDT)
::Yeah, I've gotten the impression that no one will say anything about others' sandboxes, but might once something's actually implemented and becomes a potential problem. I agree that "splinter" is as good a term as "path", and I see now that even the splinter page could use some work; seems like [[Earthforce]] should be mentioned as the first ''possible'' splinter, setting the precedent for the other Marvel examples listed, but that was likely a touchy subject for tending to veer into endless speculation.

::Your example looked like a workable outline, but I don't know enough about different TF games to visualize in detail how it'd apply. Have there been any two TF games with continuity that retroactively makes one possible outcome the "real" ending? (non-TF ex: Mortal Kombat II stating Johnny Cage beat Goro) "Nexus" just seems like the best word for a clump of splinters that all have equal weight, continuity-wise (one game, one book).[[User:Bumblevivisector|Bumblevivisector]] 19:11, 14 May 2013 (EDT)
:::How much of the [[splinter timeline]] article is from sources? Is that term actually used? If so, I think it would be best to keep with it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:22, 14 May 2013 (EDT)
::::Oh, I just meant that the article looked like it could use a few more examples of splinters, assuming the word was most relevant as a descriptive fan term. If it's only documenting uses of "splinter" from official sources, then forget it. As long as no one's objecting to terms I'm using in FYF books and character page subsections, I'll just keep using them until I'm done documenting the first 6 books and worry about the wiki's broader terminology later.

::::Since they're classified as "multipath adventures", I'll usually just say "path" or "outcome" to indicate that they're all viable options with the same canonical weight, since "splinter" ''could'' imply either a timeline-shifting cataclysm, or that the splinter is inferior to a "main" timeline that far more fans are familiar with, a principle which would just inject fan-judgement into these particular books. [[User:Bumblevivisector|Bumblevivisector]] 21:16, 14 May 2013 (EDT)

== Holy grails and Want list need to be more visible. ==

Judging by just how long Jake/Stingray has been on the want list, these two things need to be more visible. Many people visiting the wiki probably don't even visit the home page let alone scroll down far enough to read those two little boxes.
Would it be possible to do something like the Go! boxes for them? [[User:RavenG|RavenG]] 02:40, 14 May 2013 (EDT)

So nobody else thinks something like this would be good?[[User:RavenG|RavenG]] 08:58, 2 June 2013 (EDT)
:I think the problem is more likely that no one has the items in question than that they need to be more visible. Most of those things are very obscure. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:37, 2 June 2013 (EDT)
:: All the more reason it should be more visible. The more people that know to look for this stuff, the more chances there are of actually finding it.[[User:RavenG|RavenG]] 01:51, 5 June 2013 (EDT)
::: It's second from the top, just below the Featured Article. It's more visible than 90% of the rest of the frontpage. And finding Holy Grails is NOT more important than showcasing our good content that we actually have. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:04, 5 June 2013 (EDT)

== Seen this? ==
[http://lmb3.net/2013/04/18/3633/ More info than you ever thought you'd need about the Ziploc TFTM iron-on promotion.] This all should be wiki'd up by someone. Possibly me. 09:51, 17 May 2013 (EDT) (look at that 100 million dollar growth in the first year - that's like ''Angry Birds'' levels of success.)

== Left-hand menu ==

FOC and Prime - the Game have been and gone by now, so we can probably take them off there. It's probably a bit early to put Transformers 4 on. Maybe we could put links to the MTMTE and RID comics? Is Transformers: Legends high-profile enough that a link on the menu would be useful? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:31, 21 May 2013 (EDT)
:Anyone else have an opinion? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:34, 27 May 2013 (EDT)
::I'd be down with MTMTE and RID on the sidebar, considering the level of popularity IDW's stuff is currently enjoying in the fandom. Legends is probably high-profile enough, but our article for it ''is'' still sporting a stub template, and I'd reckon that most people looking for information on the game will end up at the specialised Wikia rather than here. Once we get closer to 2014, I'd suggest we might subsequently want Thrilling 30 (once we have a page up) and Transformers 4 on there. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 04:54, 28 May 2013 (EDT)

== Spam filter acting up ==

Japanese Wikipedia is being blocked by our spam filter. Can it be whitelisted? [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 20:42, 3 June 2013 (EDT)
:The spam filter is blocking all external links at the moment. I've given it a poke, but because of the caching we do, it may take a few hours before it comes right. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:15, 3 June 2013 (EDT)

== New Category ==

Have we considered adding a category for characters that debuted in fiction before receiving a toy? As in, no toy was in production at the time they first appeared, but it was eventually made. I've noticed the number of examples growing lately, with [[Straxus (G1)|Straxus]], [[Grindcore (G1)|Grindcore]], [[Drift (G1)|Drift]], [[Nightstalker]], [[Wipe-Out]], the Female Autobots, [[Dion]], [[Hauler]], [[Devcon]]...

Can't think of a way to phrase it, though. "Fiction First characters"? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 10:31, 10 June 2013 (EDT)
:[http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?ns14=1&search=Original&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Advanced+search&fulltext=Advanced+search Precedent] suggests Cat:Fiction-original characters, with Comic-original and Cartoon-original subcategories. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 11:52, 10 June 2013 (EDT)
::But there's already a Fiction-Only characters category (with Comic- and Cartoon-only subcategories). So Fiction-original would therefore encompass Comic-original and Cartoon-original sub-categories, plus a Fiction-Only subcategory with Comic- and Cartoon-only as sub-subcategories? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 21:53, 10 June 2013 (EDT)
:::Sure. That would make, e.g., [[:Category:Comic-only characters]] a (direct) subcategory of both Cat:Fiction-only and Cat:Comic-original. (NB: There are, of course, more possibilities than comic- and cartoon-. I just picked them up as the most frequent) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:00, 10 June 2013 (EDT)
::::I'm curious, would you include such characters as G1 Shockwave, G1 Reflector, and the casts of ''Animated'' and ''Prime''? Why or why not? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:54, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
:::::In Shockwave and Reflector's cases, the toy was made first despite the character actually appearing first, so it's hard to judge, but I'd be inclined not to put them in the category, although I see why others would disagree. I don't know about the ''Animated'' situation, but the ''Prime'' show was made well before any toys were, so they certainly belong there. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:01, 11 June 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, I think this gets pretty hinky when you consider that to be technically correct we'd have to apply it in ''every'' instance where the fiction debuted before the toys did, regardless of whether toys were planned all along and it was just a quirk of release order.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 14:21, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
: Shouldn't it be a case of who developed it first? Dion was developed for fiction and then later turned into a toy (much later). Where a toy is designed and developed and then turns up in fiction (even if this is aired/ released before the toy is released) it was originally developed as toy. The Shockwave et al issue is easy to resolve if you forget about whether they were a transformer toy or not and focus on whether they were a toy or not. Here the character model for fiction is based on a toy, it is an artistic representation of something filtered through the necessities of the medium in which appears along with aesthetic considerations. Where a character is developped for fiction first the starting point is the characterization, personality, needs of the story etc. It is a different creative process. You have to consider if we have toy designers going for show accuracy or illustrators going for toy accuracy (or in some cases not worrying about accuracy at all). I do think the category tells us something about the creative process that has gone into each character/ toy especially where the dates on release as toy/ fiction are similar. I agree though that it could be a potential minefield and we will need source/ link information to back up which category each character would go in..... [[User:Mister Jazzz|Mister Jazz]] 14:48, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
The above is why I wanted to be clear on the wording. I'm thinking ONLY about characters who were first introduced in fiction at a time when there were no official plans to produce a toy of them...not characters whose first appearance in fiction just happened to beat their toy to release. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 15:56, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
:Because if you split hairs that fine, it becomes an increasingly meaningless distinction relative to our existing categories. A category ought to be relatively simple to apply. Ideally it should be obvious without even needing to go to the category's page to read the description.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 19:02, 11 June 2013 (EDT)
::It seems fairly simple to me - toys don't pop up out of nowhere, there are catalogue solicitations, ToyFairs, adverts and so forth that happen months before toys are/were released. To be "Fiction-original", the point would be to demonstrate that they weren't planned as a toy at any point around the release of the comic/etc (and we know it takes yoinks to develop a toy - diverging from actual original characters for the sake of examples - IDW Stealth Bomber Megatron and IDW muscle car Bumblebee were both fiction-original designs, and the not-quite-accurate toys took so long to develop and schedule that both announced after the IDW characters had *stopped* using those bodies! Whereas "Goldfire Bumblebee" may not have been officially announced before RiDW #18 came out, but is anyone in any doubt that the design was toy-first?) If in doubt, leave it out. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 15:01, 19 June 2013 (EDT)

== Gallery space ==

I know that the majority of this would already be covered on the fiction articles, and we want the wiki to have an organic and fun read to it, rather than being tables and lists, but would it be acceptable to add a gallery space for stuff like depicting the various designs and robot/alt mode pairs? For example, when reading about G1 Bumblebee in IDW having umpteen different designs, I kind of want to be able to see an exhaustive list pointing out each design and saying where it's from. Since this would be a separate namespace, it wouldn't clutter up the fiction articles, and might actually relieve some pressure to add a screenshot to the fiction articles just because it depicts a design or mode that no interesting screenshots had depicted.

This could also be expanded into interesting screenshots themselves, or for the Japanese series, animated gifs depicting named attacks. Something similar to [http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Gallery:Greymon this] or [http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Gallery:Ravemon this].

Suggestions and objections welcome, and if you guys aren't interested in this but know of a fansite that already does it, please bring it up as well, as this kind of obsessive categorizing is what I live for.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:55, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

== tales of the beast hunters chapter 22 sharkticon megatron ==

chapter 21 vertebreak

Chapter 22 (Sharkticon Megatron)

chapter 23 night shadow bumblebee

someone add this to tales of the beast hunters thanks {{unsigned|Jazz-meister}}
:This is copyvio, right? Don't we need to delete this?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 20:04, 14 June 2013 (EDT)
::It's not really a good place for it, no... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:18, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

== Romanizations of purely Japanese names ==

It has come to my attention that the way this Wiki romanizes Transformer names that are purely Japanese in origin (such as for [[Shouki|Shōki]], each member of the [[Dinoforce]], the recent [[Gan'ō]], etc.) feels a bit at odds with how we also handle official name spellings. Generally speaking, we tend to go with the names that are official, and seem to only really diverge from this if there's something inherently wrong with the official spellings, right? Well, for the aforementioned examples, each of them has an official spelling of their names written in English, yet this Wiki seems to forgo those official spellings for some reason and instead opts for a different spelling of each. My question is, if we have an official spelling of a purely Japanese name, and there seems to be little-to-nothing wrong with said official spelling, then why don't we always use it?, For Shōki, for instance, we've gone with spelling his name as such despite official packaging material with his toy spelling his name as "Shouki" in English. Similar cases also apply for the Dinoforce members and Gan'ō, as well. The only exception to this I can think of that we do use is "Ginrai", whose name would be more straightforwardly Romanized as "Jinrai", but we went with "Ginrai" due to official sources spelling his name with a G. So what makes Ginrai special enough for him to use the official spelling over the straight Romanization spelling? 
Now, I'm not suggesting that we switch every single romanized purely Japanese name out of the Hepburn style that we use. On the contrary, I think we should at least continue to utilize the current Hepburn style for names that have no official spelling in English whatsoever, or at least for those who haven't had theirs revealed yet. But for those who have (Shouki, the Dinoforce, Ganoh, etc.), I ponder as to why we don't just use what is official if what's official is indeed a decently acceptable alternative to what ths Wiki uses. I mean, there is precedence in us using the official spellings since we use "Ginrai" over "Jinrai". Why, we even use "Dinoforce" when the box and fiction both clearly say "Kyoryu Sentai" (Dinosaur Squadron/Taskforce) in Japanese. So what's been stopping us from using the official names for the non-Ginrai Japanese word TF names? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:08, 18 June 2013 (EDT)
:Part of the problem I feel here is evokes the "Spell My Name With An S" trope, and part trying to keep the spirit of the name's original meaning. For example, "Dinoforce" from "Kyoryu Sentai" feels more... real in English, I suppose, as contrast to someone actually writing out "Dinosaur Squadron/Taskforce". "Dinoforce" has that sense of quirkiness but it still carries the meaning without loosing too much. Sometimes, the official spelling that Takara uses just seems odd ([[Mirage (G1)|Ligier]]/[[Engrish#Deliberate Engrish|Rijie]] or [[Rartorata]], anyone?), and other times the name only makes sense if you have a passable grasp of the language. (The arguments I could bring up from subbing toku. Then of course, someone else could argue about "sentai" that used in the Super Sentai series...) --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 01:52, 18 June 2013 (EDT)
::I'm fine with us using "Dinoforce". I was just pointing it out as an example of us using an official spelling over a more literal one. Same with "Ginrai" vs. "Jinrai". But, what I'm really getting at is why we use spellings like "Shōki", "Gōryū", "Gan'ō", etc. when there are official TakaraTomy spellings of these as "[http://tftechspecs.com/pics2/12668.jpg Shouki]", "[http://tftechspecs.com/pics2/12710.jpg Goryu]", [https://twitter.com/tagoal/status/345702332438302720/photo/1 Ganoh]", etc. that feel just as valid as alternatives to what we currently use. (Not to mention easier to type.) This inquiry mostly stems from the discussion on [[Talk:Gan'ō|Gan'ō's talk page]], and raises the question as to why we don't use the official spellings in cases like these when there doesn't seem to be that much, if anything at all, inherently wrong with those spellings. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 09:53, 18 June 2013 (EDT)
:::Look, there's pretty much one reason we do it this way - Interrobang's unconquerable boner for the Japanese language. He pushed for it, and the reason it wound up happening is the same reason that right now nobody is taking on this argument against it. Because '''''nobody caaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaares.''''' And nobody wants to have to go through changing everything again. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 15:12, 18 June 2013 (EDT)
::::In other words, "Sabrblade, have at it." - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:27, 18 June 2013 (EDT)
:::::Basically. I should point out I pretty much NEVER see Japanese use of English letters actually involving macrons and blardeeblar. And if we can get rid of a lot of that shit on the wiki, I'll be... well, I dunno about ''happy'', but less aggravated. I am 100% in favor of using the given romanization when it's obviously not incorrect. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:49, 19 June 2013 (EDT)
::At least going forward, I personally support the "use the romanization given" initiative, unless it gets as bad as Minelba.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 16:13, 18 June 2013 (EDT)
::::I'm all for consistency with the Japanese packaging when it's basically the same pronunciation. -[[User:LV|LV]] 18:51, 18 June 2013 (EDT)
Very well, then. Interrobang, huh? Figures. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:25, 19 June 2013 (EDT)
:Erg, just hit a speedbump. Tried to move Shōki's page to "Shouki", but it won't let me. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:17, 19 June 2013 (EDT)
::It's because there's already a page, redirecting to Shōki. An admin will have to delete the Shouki page. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 11:47, 19 June 2013 (EDT)
Can an admin delete the Dinoforce redirects? All of them have history, so I can't move them over. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 10:51, 20 June 2013 (EDT)
:There's still [[Būpink]], [[Pīpō]], and [[Kōmoribreast]], but I can't find any official romanizations, so I guess they stay where they are? [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 13:22, 20 June 2013 (EDT)
::Yeah, I'd say we can stick with the Hepburn style Romanizations for names/terms that haven't official been spelled in English yet (or unless there is something genuinely and inherently wrong with its English spelling).
::Also, thanks a bunch for helping out with this. I started to, but I got stuck when the redirects needed to be deleted first, and then came the TF: The Ride grand opening in Orlando that I was in attendance of, which took a lot of my time away from the Internet. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 20:29, 21 June 2013 (EDT)
:::No problem. Happy to help. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 22:31, 21 June 2013 (EDT)
Should real people be included in this? According to the talk page, [[Yūki Ōshima]] is generally credited as Yuki Ohshima. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 06:29, 25 June 2013 (EDT)
:I should think so. I know he's not relevant to our wiki, but [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuhiro_Nightow Yasuhiro Nightow] is pretty specific about his name's Romanization, and I'd think there would be other people who had put thought into it. -[[User:LV|LV]] 09:28, 25 June 2013 (EDT)
::I'd say that, if there are real Japanese people who have their names spelled a particular way officially (in English letters), then by all means, let us reflect that. If they don't, however, we can just keep them in the Hepburn style. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:49, 25 June 2013 (EDT)
:The [[Yuki Ohshima]] page already exists... can someone remove it, please? --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 09:41, 28 June 2013 (EDT)
::[[Yuki Ohshima]] is still there. Also, [[Shaoshao Li (KP)|Shaoshao Li]] is officially spelt "Syaosyao Li", so we should probably treat her the way we treat the Japanese ones to be consistent. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 05:59, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
:::Deleted! There's a {{tl|tobedeleted}} template you can put on pages, BTW. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:11, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
::::Thanks, I didn't know! --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 07:37, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::No problem. I think there should probably be some debate before moving Shaoshao as I get the impression from the talk page that it's another Minelba type situation possibly? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:26, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::It is, and the page went through a LOT of romanization revisions before we settled on where it is now. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:04, 1 August 2013 (EDT)

== DuckDuckGo ==

Could whoever-has-FTP-access unblock [https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckbot DuckDuckBot] in http://tfwiki.net/robots.txt, please. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:59, 22 June 2013 (EDT)

== Robot ==

I was quite surprised to see we don't have an article about robots in general! There are robots other than Cybertronians in ''Transformers'', both man-made and natural lifeforms. We probably should have an article summing up the different types - after all, we do have an article on [[alien]]s. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 09:42, 28 June 2013 (EDT)

== Archives ==

Do we have a way of searching the archives, other than just manually opening them and looking through each and every one? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:53, 2 July 2013 (EDT)
:You can restrict a search to the "Transformers Wiki talk" namespace, which usually works for me. At one point we had a form to do it at the top of this page. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:54, 2 July 2013 (EDT)

== Disambiguation pages and parsing ==

If the names on a disambiguation page differ in parsing, should the page name follow the initial use or the most common use? See [[Heavytread (disambiguation)]] and [[Knockout (disambiguation)]] for examples. The first case is at the most common form while the second is at the first used form. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:54, 3 July 2013 (EDT)
:There is [[Help:Disambiguation#Disambiguation pages|no policy]] that I can find. I would say it makes little difference, unless one of the forms was well recognized and the other was super obscure. Otherwise it is six of one, half dozen of the other. Not worth moving pages over. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:41, 3 July 2013 (EDT)
::I would agree it doesn't make much difference. Most of the time people are going to arrive there via redirection from a link whose text has the parsing that they're looking for. Only we Wiki editors are likely to go straight to a disambig and we already know what the other parsings are. I don't think the parsing is going to hinder anyone in trying to find the page. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 21:00, 3 July 2013 (EDT)

== Wiki content used in official materials, again. ==
So ''Transformers Legends'' just put out a Doctor Arkeville card, and the character bio is a truncated version of the Wiki introduction. "DR. ARKEVILLE is a self-proclaimed evil genius who often allies himself with the DECEPTICONS. Like all mad scientists, he has designs to rule the planet Earth.... however, his success rate is sorely lacking." It doesn't MATTER or anything, but it seemed strangely familiar. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 09:13, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
:Derik checked a while back and found a whole ton of the Legends bios were copied from here.[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=83287&view=findpost&p=2310050] I think the conclusion was we weren't going to worry about it too much. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:18, 9 July 2013 (EDT)

== Sizes ==

I brought this up on the [[Talk:Scale|scale talk page]] but got no response. Basically, for a wiki that tries to include as much as possible, tfwiki doesn't really address the sizes of the toys. For someone who's never actually bought any toys, terms like "Deluxe" and "Mega", or "Small Headmaster" and "Large Headmaster", or "Autobot Car" and "Mini Vehicle", aren't useful for telling how tall the toys actually are. Pretty much the only place this is addressed is the pages for the original Fort Max and the new Metroplex, which actually have numbers (22" and 24"), and seem to be the only place on the wiki where this is addressed, despite articles on both [[Scale]] and [[Size class]]. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 11:00, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:I don't think an "average size" has ever been calculated for a deluxe. Look at the current Beast Hunters line, Starscream is quite a bit smaller than Ripclaw. As far as I know, size classes aren't really about the size of the toy but of the ''packaging''. Any deluxe figures should fit in the same shelf/peg space as any other. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:22, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::That way lies madness. There's been enough fandom beardwringing about "shrinking/growing deluxes" for a lifetime. Let's not fall into that trap. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 13:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::Khajidha, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Nothing on the wiki actually indicates how tall any of these toys are. You mention ''Beast Hunters'' Starscream, but all it says on his page is that that toy is "shorter than his First Edition toy". As far as I'm concerned, he could be anything from a couple of inches to over a foot! Everything just seems to be described in terms of other toys - as another example, the original Omnibots are only described as being "shorter than Autobot Cars". I'm not asking for a true average size - just enough to have some point of reference. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:25, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::I think actual measuements would be useful. You would need to standardise what you measure (i.e. from the feet to the top of the head or to the highest point on the toy - not always the same, and determine whether this included any removable weapons/ accesories). We should probably limit the amount of info to stop it turning into an unnecessarily long list (you don't need height to head, shoulders and cannon where these are progressively taller for example). I'd also like to see both metric and imperial measurements, it's odd that the only system we seem to have is in imperial when metric would make more sense to me, I suppose both is better than choosing one or the other. It's a mammoth task though and I'm not sure it could ever be completed. If we start we will have to live with a degree on inconsistency. [[User:Mister Jazzz|Mister Jazz]] 13:54, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:So, what if you can stretch their arms up in the air, or they can hold accessories in an unmarked position (maybe on their back?)
:Eh...I think it would be, at best, reasonable to measure them with no accessories in the pose depicted in the instructions.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 16:15, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:: Ok, I've added height info for [[Prowl (G1)/toys| Prowl]]. I'm not going to add any more yet until I get some feedback on whether the format I've used is acceptable. What do you guys think? [[User:Mister Jazzz|Mister Jazz]] 09:30, 23 July 2013 (EDT)
:::I think that if this is to go forward, that the length of the altmode is of more interest than its height in most cases. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:43, 23 July 2013 (EDT)
Figuring out the format should be done on a delete-able "sandbox" page rather than on a "live" one. And honestly, I'm still unsold on the usefulness of the info. But I'll humor for now... 
:* ''Dimensions'': ??in / ??cm (robot height), ??in / ??cm (vehicle length) 
This does bring up the question of how many dimensions to measure, and how to non-clunkily add it. It kind of feels like if you're going to actually put a numbered measurement down, just picking ONE dimension is insufficient... or to put it another way, you halfassed the job. Go full height/width/depth or go home. Toys with multiple altmodes present bigger problems of readability; the more numbers, the more boring a morass the entry becomes. (THIS kind of thing is why you sandbox format changes rather than put them on live pages.) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:57, 23 July 2013 (EDT)
:Ok but halfassed is a bit harsh, three quartersassed perhaps... I'm not sure about sandboxing so for Prowl
''Dimensions'': 10.5 cm/ 4⅛ in (robot height), 11.3cm/ 4⅜ in (vehicle length)
As for the reason to do it we can't assume everyone visiting the Wiki is a Transformers expert, you or I might understand 'about the same size as the 1984 Autobot Cars' but not every visitor will. The casual fan or even parent looking for information regarding what present to buy a child might really appreciate this. You also have to consider that the secondary market is now huge and this info isn't always present, you would expect this wiki to be able to fill in that gap. As a public service information provider we have to consider that not everyone has our background knowledge and be just as informative to the novice as we are to the expert, otherwise we are in danger of becoming a jargonistic clique who only provide for ourselves. In the same way I think we should also add difficulty rating as stated on the box (where present). If you consider the potential audience in its entirity I think the case for size information is obvious. [[User:Mister Jazzz|Mister Jazz]] 08:30, 24 July 2013 (EDT)
::In that case, why not just do weight? It's not going to be changed by altmode, it's easy to measure, and you'd have a reasonable idea of scale from the weight; besides, the precision of exact size isn't really going to matter unless you're putting it in a display case, and in that case you're almost certainly a collector who understands size classes. Casual fans or parents just looking for a toy to play with aren't going to need precise measurements of size.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 08:44, 24 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Weight would vary too much due to the density of the materials. A mostly diecast figure may have the same mass as a MUCH larger modern figure with the thin plastic panels they use now. Robot height and altmode length are probably the most relevant measures for most figures. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:30, 24 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Yeah, weight is definitely not a thing we need to measure. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:54, 24 July 2013 (EDT)
::Any non-TF-fan parent looking to our wiki for toy purchasing information is already well and truly fucked. We really ''aren't'' a good resource for casual kid-toy purchase information for non-fans at all... I mean, just look at Movie Bumblebee's toy page. What parent is gonna wanna dig through all that to find their kid's birthday toy? (Never mind that the toy information is one of the ''last'' things we present; we handle their fiction first.) That demographic is gonna go to TRU's website and see what's available now, assuming they web-shop that way at all. And as pointed out, they most certainly aren't going to need precise measurements.
:: For "casual" fans, I think they have enough prior experience with toys to know the rough sizes most TFs fall under per given class (standard largish action figure range is the most common). For the more advanced fan who might conceivably need dimensions... then yes, width and depth are as relevant as height, if not moreso. Height doesn't play into stuffing robot-mode guys onto a display shelf anywhere as much as how much horizontal space a toy takes up... and frankly numbers are nothing next to just plain old physical trial-and-error on that score.
::As for difficulty ratings... that's a whole other can of worms. Hasbro's own ratings are horsehockey; they rated conversions mostly by size-class, not actual difficulty. At this point, that's basically giving out ''mis''information. And giving subjective difficulty ratings... less than ideal. Some people ''don't'' find RiD Side Burn or the Alternators unfun morasses of panel-massaging.
::And as for "jargonistic clique who only provide for ourselves"... you do know what site you're on, don't you? This is akin to accusing TVtropes of not being a good resource for people who want to get into a TV show they've not seen but have heard about. We are, ultimately, not a resource for people who kinda sorta maybe think Transformers are okay, but for people keen on digging into the guts of the franchise, the nitty-gritty, the obscure, the corners not often seen. We are very much a metaphorical rabbit hole; by design and intent we run far deeper than anyone on the outside would need. And yes, sometimes we DON'T provide info by choice... like the exact box-back bios and tech-spec numbers, but we DO provide links to places that you can get those if you really want them. The latter we don't provide because we could find no non-clunky-and-horrible way to present said info, which is very much a problem with measurements... which brings us back to the start. We'd pretty much have to provide ''all'' relevant dimensions to be of actual use to the people who'd conceivably need that kind of information, and presenting that in a way that's not clunky is a major issue. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:54, 24 July 2013 (EDT)
Possibility? When photographing TFs (or accessories or merchandise, such as statues, [[Robot Heroes]], [[Attacktix]], or [[Movie board and card games|board games/pieces]]), include a ruler or measuring stick in the photo, or if one isn't handy, photograph the item in or next to your open palm. (In your palm if it's obviously smaller than your hand, next to your palm if it's nearly the size of your hand or larger, and zoom out far enough that your whole hand is in the picture.) Doesn't provide all the dimensions (unless you use multiple rulers simultaneously or take multiple photos) and only addresses one mode (unless you have duplicate figures photographed together or take multiple photos), but it's an easy-to-understand frame of reference, and other measurements can be approximated.

When no photos are available, or when we already have photos which do not include rulers or anything, i have no objection to the inclusion of text giving the length, width, and/or height for any, all, or none of the TF toys/merchandise on this site. If someone wants to know, and the information is there, great! If the information there is presented in a clunky way, odds are it's still better than nothing for anyone curious, and odds are it's still brief enough for the uninterested to ignore. Anyone who thinks the presentation of the info is too clunky can reformat it, and anyone who thinks the revision is still too clunky can refine it further, until we arrive at an elegant format we can standardize. And if the information is not there at all, well, that's what we have now--an incomplete database which will never be complete as long as Hasbro/TakaraTomy keeps making Transformers, but an incomplete database which contains A) plenty of other interesting tidbits to read about and B) plenty of opportunities for contributors to add what they can.

For the record, sometimes i see photos of TF figures online, and am surprised by how small/large the actual figures are when i eventually see them in person for the first time--even if i own other figures of the same size class (like 1984 Autobot cars, or Legends class figures). Do i need to know beforehand how big a figure is? Probably not. But i may be curious anyhow, and if it pleases someone to satisfy my curiosity, whom does it hurt?

--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 13:09, 5 December 2013 (EST)

we are not going to photograph toys in the palms of hands --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 16:23, 5 December 2013 (EST)

:Holy [[Wikipedia:Cowcatcher|cowcatchers]], [[Ratbat (SG)|Batbot]]--it's Walky! Forgive me for being flustered, but i've long thought of you as something of a Transformers [[Legends (disambiguation)|legend]]. (Is that the same as saying you've got [[Legends Class|class]]?) i envy your artistic capability and productivity, admire your dedication to Transformers lore and collecting, and further envy that your art/writing has elevated you beyond the "caste" of mere fandom into the "council" of official TF writers/artists whose works can become canon. And if you think i'm just kissing your aft, well, i should admit that i'm trying very hard to get on your good side right now as i am a little intimidated by how hard i've seen you come down on people whose opinions differ from yours.
:That being said, you seem to be opposed to using images of toys in/alongside a Human hand as a size reference; have you anything to say about the photographing toys alongside measuring sticks? Also, are you so opposed to hands being used to show scale that you would remove such images if others post them?
:(i ask only hypothetically; the only camera i can claim at this time is a G1 Reflector.)
:--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 03:42, 6 December 2013 (EST)
::Aside from the sheer ugliness of having hands or rulers in the photo, you would need to have separate scales for each mode so that it is clear that none of the individual images has been reduced or enlarged relative to the others before combining them. `--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 09:16, 6 December 2013 (EST)

== Foreign Localization placement - again!!! ==

Said it on the page for the 1984 cartoon, will say it again here: the Foreign Localization section for cartoon episodes needs to go at the very bottom. It makes no sense to go from factoids (notes, etc.) to a list of names, then back to factoids (Trivia). Disrupts the flow of the page, buries the trivia, looks bad. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 17:51, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
:I've had this thought a couple of times. It seems like it would be more naturally placed below Trivia with the home video releases. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:41, 21 July 2013 (EDT)

== Some Transformer Knock-off cartoon ==

We have some Transformer-Knock-off cartoon made by china ( Not a big deal huh how about they use that cartoon charracter toy make them loke idiot cut and turn it into "Transformer Gobot Toyline )
Here the Final Episode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI5fXIJY5_U

To Story:

Some stupid kid play games about Transoformer and get sucked into the game world who Transoformer get seperate into 2 side Animal ( Deceticon ) and Vehicle ( Autobot )

Vehicle: With 6 Clan Car,Police Car,Hellicopter,Bulldozer,Jeep ( They are Extinct only the stongest guy alive ),Jet and one extra Bike ( Only One ) ( Clan i mean they Fucking look like the Same Fucking Guy only the Officer on specific clan have different Color that mean they use the Same Fucking Model to make Hundred Guy )

Animal: Only 3 : Jaguar,Gorilla ( Only the leader the infanry are Rat but they look like the mech from Battle Tech Series ) and Dragon

== Korean, not Indonesian ==

The Indonesian foreign names of many of the Transformers are written in Korean. Why? They use a completely different script. I can't distinguish whether someone just phoneticized Indonesian names and have written them in Korean, or if they're Korean names and someone just mislabeled them as Indonesian. (I think I see examples of both, although I only have a passing familiarity with Indonesian so I'm not sure.) --[[User:Noviere|Noviere]] 14:23, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:The one that you changed was added by Andreanromanky18, I guess we should review all of the others that he/she has added. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:43, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::[http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimlock Indonesia Wikipedia] shows most of the characters have the same name as they do in English. [http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%ED%8A%B8%EB%9E%9C%EC%8A%A4%ED%8F%AC%EB%A8%B8_%EB%8D%94_%EB%AC%B4%EB%B9%84 Korean Wikipedia] had Grimlock's name written differently. Hrm. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:36, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

== Grouping American/Japanese divergent fiction ==

I'm trying to standardize the G1 cartoon fiction sections, particularly when characters have both American and Japanese histories. For larger characters like [[Kup (G1)#Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Kup]] we have a big "''Generation 1 cartoon continuity''" masthead, with "''The Transformers cartoon''" underneath, some micro-continuities, and "''Japanese cartoon continuity''", which has its own sub-sections. On the other hand, we've got [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] with a "G1cc" heading, and all the Japanese sections as equal to "''The Transformers cartoon''" instead of under a "Jcc" header. I think Hound should have (1st tier) "G1cc", (2nd) "''The Transformers cartoon''" & "Jcc", (3rd) the various Japanese fictions.

There's also some discrepancies between characters that only appeared after [[The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 2|TROOP]], where American and Japanese continuity completely diverged. [[Pointblank]] has a "G1cc" header that includes "''The Transformers cartoon''" and "''The Headmasters cartoon''". [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]], however, has "''The Transformers cartoon''" (and Wings as a sub-section) completely separated from the "''Japanese cartoon continuity''". I think a "G1cc" is preferable, since the stories flowing forward from ''The Rebirth'' or ''Transformers: The Headmasters'' do share the same underlying backstory.

Finally, there are characters that have only appeared in Japanese and American cartoon micro-continuities. [[Roadblock (G2)|Roadblock]] has appeared in America's Wingsverse and Japan's ''United EX'' fiction. Both of these continuities come from the original cartoon, as "add-ons", but there's nothing to indicate that in the way they're grouped under his fiction section. I think characters like Roadblock, Rapido, etc. should have their Wings/United EX sections grouped together, with a note of some kind explaining the connection.

Anyway, I wanted to bring this up here before I started sweeping through the G1 sections. Preferences one way or another? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:56, 23 July 2013 (EDT)
:I don't think character pages should concern themselves with continuity beyond the characters themselves. ''Headmasters'' Chromedome has absolutely no connection to Rebirth Chromedome in any way and putting them under the same section is deceptive. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 22:15, 24 July 2013 (EDT)
::The problem with that is that a casual reader of the page may not know the connection between the US and Japan cartoons. Whichever way it's written, it will be clear that Chromedome was introduced separately in both the US and Japanese cartoons - however, grouping the two together would signify that, despite the difference in the portrayal of the character, these are two similar universes, as opposed to the fairly different Marvel universe or the radically different IDW universe. I don't like it when the wiki assumes too much prior knowledge on the part of the reader - just because ''we'' know the story behind the Rebirth/Headmasters timeline split, someone who only knows Chromedome from the IDW comics may not be as aware, and wiki articles should above all aim to be informative. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 03:26, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
:::I don't see why that's the responsibility of character pages or how that would enlighten them instead of making them think there's a linear chronology for the character when there isn't one. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 11:00, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
::::The point I'm trying to make is that, assuming the article is written clearly, there would be no confusion as to whether there is a linear chronology, as the sections would be labelled "US continuity" and "Japanese continuity" or something similar - so as long as we've made that clear, we might as well point out that these two separate timelines were once the same timeline, but branched off before this character was introduced, so as not to give the impression of a completely separate "Japanese cartoon continuity" that is unrelated to the US one, unlike the actual situation which has a split timeline. Looking at Chromedome's page, both the Rebirth section and the Headmasters section mention Galvatron, but the page as written gives no indication that both "versions" of Galvatron, unlike the two Chromedomes, experienced exactly the same events for a while before Chromedome appeared - if Chromedome's page was the first page I ever read on the wiki, I would conclude that the Headmasters series was as unrelated to the US series as it is to the IDW comics. Grouping the two together would prevent any such misunderstandings without going into too much detail, and the reader could then consult the page about the Headmasters series if they want a full explanation. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 11:19, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::That was my concern. There could even be an opening note on the subject, like:
:::::{{note|The underlying history for American and Japanese G1 cartoon continuity is the first 95 episodes of the Sunbow cartoon, before splitting in two directions. Chromedome first appeared in the cartoon continuity after the split occurred, with two distinct histories.}}
:::::--[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:53, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::The Marvel comic sections are already drowned in obnoxious continuity notes. Do we really need to do the same to the cartoon sections? [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 15:52, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::I'm confused -- how are you making "being informed" sound like a negative? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 17:56, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::I'd rather have "obnoxious" continuity notes than a confusing article. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 17:17, 25 July 2013 (EDT)

== New templates ==

[[Template:Nihongo]], same one as used on wikipedia.

Also, I had a suggestion for a [[Template:L]] (I forgot to get approval the first time) that would simplify the coding for any article with a parser from <nowiki>[[Optimus Prime (WFC)|Optimus]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>{{l|Optimus Prime|WFC|Optimus}}</nowiki>, and <nowiki>[[Optimus Prime (WFC)|Optimus Prime]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>{{l|Optimus Prime|WFC}}</nowiki>.

Thoughts?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:51, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
:I really don't see the need for a link template like that. It increases the learning curve to edit the wiki in exchange for a only a slight saving of characters. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:37, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
:No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:07, 25 July 2013 (EDT)
::Like Khajidha said, it's a solution that solves nothing in particular. Not everything needs to be relegated to templates. (I'm looking right at that awful Comicstory template.) [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 15:49, 25 July 2013 (EDT)

:Regarding the Nihongo template, I wonder if there's somewhere more useful we can point the question mark thingy at the end rather than a Wikipedia page with general Japanese info and WP-specific stuff for dealing with Japanese, though I'm not sure if we have a relevant help page (perhaps this is a sign we need one). --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:03, 30 July 2013 (EDT)

== trying to find a template ==

I believe the subarticle [[2006/toys]], and the like, used to have a template pointing back to the year at the top of the article, but I can't seem to find that template. Does anyone know what it should be? Also, should these subarticles have a category? Thanks. --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 10:23, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
:I don't think "2006/toys" is meant to be viewed on its own. It exists for some organizational reason or another. Its content is automatically put on the [[2006]] page. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:05, 16 August 2013 (EDT)
::They can come up when you use the random page function though, like the suite pages do. As for the uplink, that wasn't a template, it was a [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Subpages subpages setting]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:46, 21 August 2013 (EDT)

=="Thin gray line" template for splitting sub-sections visually==
Okay, this kinda hit me while working on [[Glit (KP)|Glit]]'s page... look at that fiction section. How can you tell where one one continuity ends and another begins at a glance? It's kind of a mess. The size differences between the subheader text is almost negligible. And Glit isn't even the most complex fiction section we got. The more subheadings we add to a section, and the loner those entries get, the worse it gets. 
Testing things out, I tried the "<nowiki>----</nowiki>" template, which puts a thin dividing line across the page. It works well as a visual separation, but the line itself is too dark. Can we either change the template so the line is, say, %50 gray (making it subtle but still noticeable and not confusing with the main subheader line breaks), or make a new template that does this function? This would be put between major subheadings; in this case, over the "IDW" and "Classics" headers. This might also be nice for Toy sections. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:14, 28 August 2013 (EDT)
:I suggested that like three or four years ago and got yelled at by everybody. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:17, 28 August 2013 (EDT)
::I would support it.
::I think it'd be a bit of a mess for characters around, say the marvel G1 stuff with its multiple branches... but definately worth it in the end. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:17, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
:::I can dig it. Honestly, I've used solid black lines to divide continuity clusters in a few huge articles myself already. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:35, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
:::Well, I don't think we'd put the line between the Marvel G1 sub-sections since they're all part of the same "branch". But between Marvel and IDW? Oh yeah. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:44, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
::::I raise the idea of solid black lines between Mrvel and IDW and gray lines between branches.
::::Does McFeely have an example of an article with a solid black line? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 17:11, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
:::::The trouble there is "solid black" already denotes the spit between MAJOR headers, like "Fiction" and "Toys". Gray is a "soft separator"; a visible marking, but not as STOP WE ARE MOVING TO AN ENTIRELY NEW SUBJECT as solid black. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 17:24, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, that's an accurate assessment. Re Derik's question, I know it I did it on [[Matrix of Leadership]] and [[Transwarp]], I might've done it on some others but I honestly forget at this point. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 17:52, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
:::::::To follow up, I don't think we need a soft-line break between EVERY sub-header. I think that under, say, the Marvel G1 continuity clump, a header is enough to denote "here's where continuity may jump/branch so just a heads-up". The line better notes an out-and-out break where what came before had no ties to what comes after... jsut with the gray, we're still staying in the same ballpark of "Fiction" (or possibly even "Toys"). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:51, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
::::::::We'd use a different visual obviously...
::::::::I'm going to dinner but I'll do some mockups later so you call can go "Hell no, I hate that, are you crazy?!" and we'll get a better idea of what we ''don't'' want, and can maybe figure out something useful. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:28, 12 October 2013 (EDT)
::::::::(Unrelated: I think I know what cluster Bot-Shots goes in.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:28, 12 October 2013 (EDT)

== Disambiguation suffixes ==

I would like to propose two modifications of our disambiguation style, both of which merely codify principles that we already seem to follow. First, I propose that franchise of origin disambiguation suffixes be limited specifically to characters, not places or things. Second, I propose that characters from external properties should never be given Transformers franchise disambiguations, but should always use tags appropriate to the external property. The first rule underlies the logic behind the recent move of [[Tyrest (Autobot)]] to [[Tyrest (G1)]] despite the presence of [[Tyrest (polity)]], which also originated in G1. The second is why [[Roadblock (G1)]] can be at that location despite the existence of [[Roadblock (G.I. Joe)]], whose first TF appearance was during G1. As these examples demonstrate, we are already actually doing this, we just don’t explain it very well. If there are no objections, I intend to clarify [[Help:Disambiguation]] with notes about these principles. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:42, 2 September 2013 (EDT)
:We don't strictly follow that first rule - see the various "Great War" pages, for example. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:26, 2 September 2013 (EDT)
::Plus there's [[Ark (G1)]], [[Ark (Movie)]], etc. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 00:22, 3 September 2013 (EDT)

:The one that always gets me is "(TF 2010)". [[Lugnut (TF 2010)]] is treated as G1, most of the others (e.g., [[Override (TF 2010)]], [[Terradive (TF 2010)]], [[Highbrow (TF 2010)]]) are treated as movieverse (oh, and the Mini-Cons just say "who knows"). The word is DISambiguation, people - G1 characters and movieverse characters should not share a disambig tag. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:48, 2 September 2013 (EDT)
::The (TF 2010) toys are disambiged by franchise. That toyline contained toys representing characters from more than one continuity. Lugnut was part of that line's Reveal the Shield subline imprint, which is when the line switched from a mostly Movieverse toyline to a mostly G1-based/Classics-style toyline. The end result of the characters you mentioned all sharing the same disambig despite being in separate continuities is due to the unfortunate nature of that franchise spanning more than one continuity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:19, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
:::I know all that and don't really care, because the end result is a broken disambig model that only works for rules lawyers. [Note that (Timelines) as a disambig is avoided '''for this very reason'''.] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 01:19, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
::::I love it when people tell me they don't care how the wiki chooses to disambiguate things. It makes me super want to talk with them further about these issues. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:23, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
:::::You never talk ''with'' people on the public internet anyway. You talk ''at'' them.
:::::As for the subject... disambiguating by franchise may be a great plan (mileages may vary - I think it works only in the simplest cases), but it completely breaks in contact with a multi-continuity franchise. [And is more than a bit wibbly in the case of stuff like toys designed to match pre-existing High Moon WfC/FoC designs being listed only as "repurposes" in those articles because of ''later'' material.] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 02:30, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
::::::Ultimately I don't think TF2010 is big enough of a franchise for it to be bothered breaking into tiny pieces. It's got eight new characters in it. It's not like Timelines, which spans years and years and multiple continuities. It's not a Big Deal enough to make a mess within the existing rules. It's nowhere near a quagmire. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:45, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
::::::Also also, the reason Timelines is better split up is because due to its nature of also containing Shattered Glass and fifteen different permutations of many popular character names, disambiguating within it is pretty pointless anyway. Starscream (Timelines) would refer to which guy, exactly? The MW clone? The TransTech guy? The Shattered Glass version? Timelines breaks itself within our established rules. TF2010 absolutely does not, no matter how much you individually think having G1 and Movie guys in the same disambig is wrong. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:53, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
::::::How is a disambig tag in any way related to how toys are listed on pages? I mean, unless you are legitimately suggesting that instead of disambiguating by franchise, we put all Thundercrackers ever on the same page, I cannot understand the connection here. -[[User:LV|LV]] 02:50, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
:::::::It isn't, really, I jumped a track there [posting while insomniac and cranky is never advisable]. It just offends my sense of chronology to see the guy ''the design originated for'' listed as a "repurpose" rather than just listing the thing on both pages equally. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 03:07, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
::::::::Which... we DO. List on both pages. See: lots of Shattered Glass character pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:10, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::It's listed, but [[Thundercracker_(WFC)#Generations|with a particularly silly note]] given that WfC Thundercracker is the original design. There's a difference between Shattered Glass using a toy that existed years before SG did as an entirely different character (e.g., SG Ravage from Glit), which is repurposing, and listing the ''original'' as a "repurpose". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 03:44, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
::::::::::Yeah, that happens not infrequently, like with Megabolt Megatron. It doesn't bother me. This wiki reports what actually happens, not what we wish would happen. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:11, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
Hmm. Seems I overlooked a few things about franchise identifications on non-character articles. It still seems that characters take priority over non-characters (per the Tyrest example I gave), but it isn't quite as strict a rule as I thought. Is there any dispute over the external properties point? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:41, 3 September 2013 (EDT)
: I don't think so. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:08, 3 September 2013 (EDT)

Added an external properties note to [[Help:Disambiguation]]. Feel free to modify it if it seems warranted. Also, do we want to go at least as far as saying that if a character and a non-character from the same franchise need disambiguating that the character can retain the franchise parenthetical while the non-character gets something different? Basically saying that the characters get dibs on franchise tags. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:50, 7 September 2013 (EDT)

== Stub Templates ==

Okay, so at this point I think I should change my username to "Stubtemplatesix"...so before I go looking through the stub category, are there any other stub templates that people want made? -- [[User:Spydersix|spyder]][[User Talk:Spydersix|Use this!]] 16:21, 11 October 2013 (EDT)

==From the Marvel Comics portion of the Generation 1 continuity family==
So I've been doing a bit of work with the Comic-only characters lately and I've noticed that while we have "from the Hearts of Steel portion of the G1 continuity family" and "from the IDW portion of the G1 continuity family" at the top of various characters' pages, all of the "from the Marvel Comics portion"s seem to have disappeared. Was there a purge of these? Do we not do them any more? Is there a good reason why not? Cheers --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 11:15, 28 October 2013 (EDT)
:There are some "from the Marvel portion..."s. I suspect it's more a case of "they were never added" than "they were removed". - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:01, 28 October 2013 (EDT)
::Okay, just making sure I'm not stepping on any toes if I start adding them --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 13:47, 28 October 2013 (EDT)
:::Well, I added a lot of the "IDW portion"s myself, so...
:::One thing - "portion" should be included in the link (<nowiki>[[Marvel Comics continuity|Marvel portion]] or [[Marvel Comics continuity|Marvel Comics portion]]</nowiki>) to distinguish from links to <nowiki>[[Marvel Comics]]</nowiki>. [I tend to prefer the former, since RG1, Classics and Fleetway are MCC splinters without being published by Marvel Comics.] - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 16:35, 28 October 2013 (EDT)

== The AllSpark and the Allspark ==

At the end of the Predacons Rising movie, after Optimus tells the others of how he had to put the energy of the [[AllSpark]] into the Matrix of Leadership, thus rendering his spark incapable of separating from the multitude of others, Ratchet asks him "Are you telling us... that you are now... one with the AllSpark?!" Smokescreen answers with "That's what you say when someone kicks the..." and all proceeding dialogue and action pertain to that meaning that Optimus is on his way to die and go into the afterlife. BUT, up until now, all instances of the term "AllSpark" have been used to refer to the life-granting thing on the physical plane of reality, while the afterlife has been referred to (by us fans) as the "[[Allspark|All'''''s'''''park]]" (lowercase S), as a means to differentiate the two (since the afterlife dimension first introduced in Beast Machines and the life-granting cube first seen in the movies were hardly the same thing at the time). Like, a TF who's dead is one who is "one with the Allspark." 
But now, with the use of the phrase "[being] one with the AllSpark" in this scene, it seems to strongly suggest that the term related to source of Cybertronian life and the term related to the Cybertronian afterlife are now considered to be one concept containing all of the aspects of Cybertronian life, birth, death, and afterlife. And if such is now the case, does this call for a massive re-merging of the two separate articles with some McFeely-levels of rewriting? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:45, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
:I'll just say I happen to be working on something already that pertains to this. But that that also seems like an overly specific reading of the dialogue on your part when it could just as easily mean the same thing it's always meant up until now (that the energy-AllSpark of ''Prime'' is, like all other AllSparks, merely a means of accessing the afterlife, rather than some physical manifestation of the afterlife in the material plane, and that Prime merely "became one" with it in an overly literal way that is not the norm that happened to poetically mirror the normal meaning of the expression), and that such a vague foundation is not one to justify a merging of the articles on. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 06:06, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
::Well, how many times has the phrase "[being] one with the Allspark" been used to refer to the Uppercase S life-giving concept of the physical plane instead of the lowercase S afterlife concept that it originally referred to? I highly (and sadly) doubt the folks at Hasbro bother to think of the two terms as referring to separate things like we fans do. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:25, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
:::I've never made the distinction as it has always been obvious to me that Hasbro didn't. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:23, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
::::It's a vague distinction anyway. It's basically the same as all those times in the G1 cartoon that characters professed to be "joining the Matrix" or "entering the Matrix", or the time Rampage told Silverbolt it was "time to go back to the Matrix" at a time when the writers envisioned the Matrix as a protoform production facility. Characters in-universe talk a fair bit about returning to or becoming one with the object that spawned them; ''Beast Machines'' and subsequent work built on what that show did just lets us know there's more to it than that, without invalidating that sentiment either. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 12:29, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
:I had to reread this several times to even understand what your concern was. Suffice it to say that I don't view this dialogue as changing anything we knew about either concept. -[[User:LV|LV]] 13:37, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
:::::In that case, I now ask why we split the two in the first place back when the Cube info was being put on the afterlife dimension's page if the distinction is so vague as to be nonexistent/unnecessary. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:07, 29 October 2013 (EDT)
::::::The Allspark is only one name for the afterlife. You could just as easily phrase your question "Why aren't the Matrix of Leadership and the Matrix dimension on the same page?" because that's exactly the same notion. And you wouldn't do that, now would you? Like I said, though, I'm gearing up to do some stuff with the Allspark article, which chiefly includes moving it to "Transformer afterlife" to separate out and better explain these distinctions and problems. I think it's the last major cross-universal meta-concept left after the Matrix, Energon and Transwarp, and the sparseness of the current article annoys me because, given how the Wiki is slowly but surely becoming a major resource consulted by the people creating the fiction, a thorough detailing of it can help mitigate ''exactly this sort of confusion'' in the future. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]]
:::::::But wasn't the term "Allspark" created specifically to refer to the afterlife? To clarify that "the Matrix" was just its nickname and not meant to refer to the Matrix of Leadership? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 20:19, 29 October 2013 (EDT)

== Wiki update issues ==

The recent wiki update seems to have affected the <nowiki>{{--}}</nowiki> template, in that it [[Ironhide (BS)|doesn't seem to work anymore.]] <nowiki>{{-}}</nowiki> seems to work, though. --[[User:Inkblot|Inkblot]] ([[User talk:Inkblot|talk]]) 21:39, 9 November 2013 (EST)
:I see the problem. Mediawiki doesn't use a name tags for anchors any more. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:04, 9 November 2013 (EST)
::And it's fixed. Thanks. :-) --[[User:Inkblot|Inkblot]] ([[User talk:Inkblot|talk]]) 22:13, 9 November 2013 (EST)

Also, I noticed that the galleries [[Homage|aren't bordered anymore.]] --[[User:Inkblot|Inkblot]] ([[User talk:Inkblot|talk]]) 01:39, 11 November 2013 (EST)
:That actually appears to be an intentional change. If I use the gallery tag on Wikipedia, the gallery doesn't have a border either. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 02:25, 11 November 2013 (EST)

[[:Category:Navigation_templates|Nav templates]] have gone a bit wibbly. [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:Nav-bm&curid=18851&diff=838471&oldid=640853 I kludged a fix for the BM one there], but it would probably be easier converting them all to use a base template at {{tl|Nav}}, and just having the links and logo entered in the individual navs. Similar to how {{tl|Messagebox}} and many of the copyright templates work. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 13:54, 18 November 2013 (EST)
:Yes, that seems like a good idea. It'll keep them standard! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 02:59, 21 November 2013 (EST)

== Marvel G1 Cover Artists ==

Hi, can I just ask where we got the info for US cover artists from, as they weren't credited in the issues themselves. I only ask because this wiki says that Mark Texeira did the cover for both US#3 and US#4, but on the Comic Book Database (comicbookdb.com) they list Mike Zeck as the cover artist to #3. So, which site is correct, the TFwiki or comicbookdb? And if the wiki has the wrong cover artist for US#3, is it possible some of the cover credits to other issues might also be in need of correction? Cheers! --[[User:Ryan Frost|Ryan Frost]] ([[User talk:Ryan Frost|talk]]) 14:20, 18 November 2013 (EST)
:Even worse, while we credit the cover to Mark Texeira on the [[:File:MarvelUS-03.jpg|image page]], the actual [[Prisoner of War!|issue page]] credits it to Michael Golden. I think most of the Marvel cover credits really need to be double-checked against a reliable source, but I'm not sure where to find one. The Titan reprints had an intro which often named the cover artists, ISTR, but not always. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 03:30, 21 November 2013 (EST)

==Bing==

I've noticed that tfwiki doesnt show up in bing searches. Rather you'll get the wikia site even if you type in "tfwiki."
Has this been dealt with?

--[[User:Lush City|Lush City]] 20:47, 29 November 2013 (EST)
:I think it's one of the crawlers that got blocked for hammering the site. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:13, 29 November 2013 (EST)
::It was. I've re-enabled it now that I've got the wherewithal to deal with things using a method other than the banhammer of rage. Give it a few days. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] ([[User talk:McFly|talk]]) 17:15, 11 December 2013 (EST)

File talk:TFU03-toy Ratchet.jpg

2013-11-13T14:24:50Z

McFly:

Hey, we have a weird glitch happening with this picture. It's turned on its side and squashed. {{unsigned|PunchSydeiron}}
:I have no idea what's causing this on the image page, but it seems to display okay when embedded into an article... Also, please sign your posts by typing four tildes: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 18:20, 9 November 2013 (EST)
::Fine here in Chrome 30.0.1599.101 m. -[[User:LV|LV]] ([[User talk:LV|talk]]) 20:47, 9 November 2013 (EST)
:::Yeah, I fixed it by swapping the image on the server. We jumped from Mediawiki 1.15 to to 1.19. They only started honoring EXIF rotation data in 1.18, and they apparently messed it up somehow. [[User:McFly|McFly]] ([[User talk:McFly|talk]]) 21:24, 9 November 2013 (EST)
::::You always have all the answers, McFly! Well, what's your answer to THAT--? -[[User:LV|LV]] ([[User talk:LV|talk]]) 23:12, 9 November 2013 (EST)
:::::... It's the taste you can see? [[User:McFly|McFly]] ([[User talk:McFly|talk]]) 09:24, 13 November 2013 (EST)
Okay, but how do I sign my posts?
:I told you just above - type four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>), and it'll automatically become a signature when you save the page. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 18:17, 12 November 2013 (EST)

File talk:TFU03-toy NemesisStrika.jpg

2013-11-10T14:47:38Z

McFly:

This image's orientation is also glitched. --[[User:Inkblot|Inkblot]] ([[User talk:Inkblot|talk]]) 08:03, 10 November 2013 (EST)
: Fixed. [[User:McFly|McFly]] ([[User talk:McFly|talk]]) 09:47, 10 November 2013 (EST)

File talk:TFU03-toy Ratchet.jpg

2013-11-10T02:24:49Z

McFly:

MediaWiki:Tech

2013-11-09T22:07:31Z

McFly:

This '''Tech Portal''' is to serve as a clearinghouse for information related to technical issues on Transformers Wiki.

This page's purpose is to hold information-- any tech issues, questions or initiatives should be discussed on the main [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]] pages where everyone can weigh in. This page isn't an attempt to split-out discussion, merely to archive its results.

==Information==
===Basic Maintenance===
* Linode's given us a lot of new tricks. The big thing to keep in mind is that the new wiki depends upon two servers which are backed up nightly:
** The Database Server: This is running MySQL, and if we lose it, everyone's hard work goes down the toilet.
** The Application Server: This is running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix. If we lose it, we lose the mediawiki installation, all customizations (MonacoBook, GoBoxes, etc.), and even if we revive the wiki, it won't look the same.

* There are, however, a lovely middle layer: The Caching Servers. Each of these has a nigh-identical configuration, so if one dies, we simply don't care, as we can rebuild it very quickly from one of its brothers.
** Each Caching Server runs Squid and Memcached, and their IPs need to be registered in Mediawiki's LocalSettings.php so that it knows to handle them properly. Failure to do so will break IP address blocks in Mediawiki, and will waste RAM on the Caching servers that could otherwise go to Memcached, a '''powerful''' object caching engine that accelerates everything we do by avoiding long database queries.
** Each Caching Server also needs to be registered with the LoadBalancer, by simply copying the configuration of one of its peers and changing the internal IP address to match.
** Finally, due to webcrawler abuse, each Caching Server also needs to be updated with new hostnames. If we start adding foreign-language wikis to the mix, we would have to add en.tfwiki.net, es.tfwiki.net (Spanish,) and so on. If we ever launch that GoBots sub-wiki, we already have gb.tfwiki.net enabled. These strings need to be added to the mySites ACL definitions in /etc/squid/squid.conf on EVERY Caching Server.

* Similarly, abusive webcrawlers are filtered by User-Agent via regexes in the /etc/squid/badbrowsers.conf file. Well-behaved bots can be removed accordingly, but again, make sure that your edits are done to ALL Caching Servers!
** (At some point, this needs to go into a change control system and set to rsync transparently.)
** If you edit these files, a config reload is all that you'll need. Don't waste time restarting Squid.

===Mighty Feature, Mighty Server Drain===
* The Go-Box!
* No, seriously, the Go-Box was originally written to poll [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:Goicons&action=raw] each time it runs, as was the generator used for off-site signature blocks. So every time you pull up a page with a Gobox, the server polls itself for that list, using up a second connection, AND taxing the server to execute the PHP code.
* The GoBoxes are also called from MonacoBook, the TFWiki skin, so every time you pull up a page? You use up an Apache process JUST TO GRAB SOME RARELY-UPDATED XML.
* We've changed that to poll a file in <code>/var/lib/mediawiki/goicons.xml</code> instead, which is updated via a cron job. Make sure you replicate that whole deal if you ever duplicate the wiki, it's kinda important.
* Or, you could NOT replicate this step, and suffer the consequences of increased CPU load, and have an annoyed sysadmin. You don't want that.

===Coding Standards===
* Transformers Wiki:Semantic linking initiative
* I've had to make manual changes to the 1.19 codebase to function cleanly with PHP 5.4 and some long-deprecated functions used in our older codebase:
** MemcachedClient.php was defining parameters to the stream_select function directly in the function call. These variables are now defined prior to the function call. This change appears to be live in later versions of the client.
** ConfirmEdit was calling a wgSeedRandom function that has been deprecated. I've commented it out, as that seems to have been the accepted solution to the problem.

===Scripting===
* Transformers Wiki's editable javascript file is located at [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. It can only be altered by admins.
* Your personal javascript file can be located at [[Special:Mypage/monacobook.js|User:Username/monacobook.js]] or [[Special:Mypage/monoobook.js|User:Username/monobook.js]]. There does not appear to be a corresponding User:Username/common.js, annoyingly.
* [[User:Derik/javascript]] — Derik's loose documentation of the likely-to-be-useful Javascript functions on TFWiki. (You will not be able to use any of these functions without editing either the site's or your personal .js file though.)

===Hosting===

''Minor note: Much of these notes are here to keep us all in the loop, and should be wikified a little more than I'm going to get to tonight.''

* The current wiki, post Bookworm, is a metered, unmanaged [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server VPS] provided by [http://www.slicehost.com/ Slicehost.]
** As of January 2013, service has been relocated to [http://linode.com/ Linode]
** This provides us with a dedicated server under the Xen virtualization software. Our Linux distribution of choice was Debian 5.0, on a Xen-aware 2.6.24 SMP-capable kernel.
*** Now Debian 6!
* As of June 2009, it is running in a semi-optimized state, with MediaWiki configured to utilize a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_cache Squid] reverse proxy cache for all anonymous users, and a small [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memcached memcached] instance for all database queries.
** As of May 2011, functions are split between two boxes: Front-end hosts Squid, Apache, and Postfix, and the Back-end server hosts MySQL and Memcached. Disk IO contention has dropped to usable, if not ideal levels.
*** Functions are now split to three layers: 1 MySQL DB server, 1 Application server, running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix, and 2 Squid/Memcached servers. Load Balancers are run by a Linode-managed NodeBalancer.
** Squid has also been updated to use the AUFS file handler instead of UFS. This uses more disk I/O, but parallelizes cache access for better concurrency. I'm also investigating the COSS handler, but that's currently untested.
* MySQL is largely using InnoDB tables, which can be backed up in a live state, with the purchase of a hefty Innobackup license. This is not in the cards, so we are instead using LVM snapshots from Slicehost. This has been tested, and functions as expected.
** Still being done this way.
* FULL local filesystem backups are done via snapshot nightly and weekly. While these cannot be exported to another server, they do allow us to revert to the previous day's database/configuration/file library without much hassle.
** Long term, we should find someone to host an rsync backup of the entire /var/lib/mediawiki directory, along with an offsite replica of the MySQL database. While it would take a while to reupload the data, this would effectively preserve the wiki in the event of a complete catastrophic datacenter failure. (We'd be down for a while, but we wouldn't lose more than a day's work.)
* PHP session handling is done via the file handler, as the default Debian PHP package does NOT support the mm handler.
** This was a key issue with many of our page loading glitches when the wiki first launched on this platform.
====Configuration Settings====
Memcached: 192MB allocated per Squid cache
APC: 40MB allocated

On Echo (the apache/squid server,) noatime and data=writeback is enabled in /etc/fstab as of 6/24/2011. This should reduce the overall I/O load on the system, ideally giving us some added performance.

Noatime is still enabled on all servers, as per Linode defaults.

====Software versions====
* OS: Debian 7.0, Kernel 3.11.6
* Squid: 2.7
* Apache: 2.2.22
* Memcached: 1.4.5
* MySQL: 5.1.66
* PHP: 5.4.4
* MediaWiki: 1.19.5

===Future ideas===
* It is possible to host a Mediawiki installation on a Cloud Hosting provider, such as Rackspace's Mosso, or Amazon's EC2. This would basically give us a bomb-proof installation, ''as long as we also maintain proper backups.''
* Ideally, we should split the site into multiple servers: One for the database, one for the Squid cache(s), and one for the Apache webserver/memcached.
** Done, more or less. Memcached runs on the Squid servers.
* As long as we're at it, a local DB replica would allow us to back up just the database more frequently, without any impact on site performance. If we really want to get fancy, we could keep weekly, daily, and hourly backups, which could then be recovered within minutes. Right now, if we roll back the server, we go back in time for both the database '''and''' the images.
** Soon!
* Memcached only gets better as we allocate more RAM. This may become a priority, if we have the RAM to spare on the current box.
** Done and done, we're running pretty smoothly at present.

===Extensions===
* Aside from the ones that were blindly imported from the old wiki, we're now using the SpamBlacklist extension, with a modification to support Reverse DNS blacklist lookups. In short, make the wrong edit, or come from the wrong IP address, and you won't even get to make your edit.
*We are running a slightly newer version of the ConfirmEdit extension, specifically the one for Mediawiki 1.16 (it works with 1.15 fortunately) primarily because the newer version comes with QuestyCaptcha, which does a lot better job of keeping the spammers out.
* ConfirmEdit is now the 1.19 version, keeping things in-line with the Debian package manager.
* Multi-Category Search is presently disabled, it was borking the server completely. We'll need to do an error trace later.

[[Category:TFWiki.net]]

MediaWiki:Tech

2013-11-09T22:04:08Z

McFly: /* Future ideas */

This '''Tech Portal''' is to serve as a clearinghouse for information related to technical issues on Transformers Wiki.

This page's purpose is to hold information-- any tech issues, questions or initiatives should be discussed on the main [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]] pages where everyone can weigh in. This page isn't an attempt to split-out discussion, merely to archive its results.

==Information==
===Basic Maintenance===
* Linode's given us a lot of new tricks. The big thing to keep in mind is that the new wiki depends upon two servers which are backed up nightly:
** The Database Server: This is running MySQL, and if we lose it, everyone's hard work goes down the toilet.
** The Application Server: This is running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix. If we lose it, we lose the mediawiki installation, all customizations (MonacoBook, GoBoxes, etc.), and even if we revive the wiki, it won't look the same.

* There are, however, a lovely middle layer: The Caching Servers. Each of these has a nigh-identical configuration, so if one dies, we simply don't care, as we can rebuild it very quickly from one of its brothers.
** Each Caching Server runs Squid and Memcached, and their IPs need to be registered in Mediawiki's LocalSettings.php so that it knows to handle them properly. Failure to do so will break IP address blocks in Mediawiki, and will waste RAM on the Caching servers that could otherwise go to Memcached, a '''powerful''' object caching engine that accelerates everything we do by avoiding long database queries.
** Each Caching Server also needs to be registered with the LoadBalancer, by simply copying the configuration of one of its peers and changing the internal IP address to match.
** Finally, due to webcrawler abuse, each Caching Server also needs to be updated with new hostnames. If we start adding foreign-language wikis to the mix, we would have to add en.tfwiki.net, es.tfwiki.net (Spanish,) and so on. If we ever launch that GoBots sub-wiki, we already have gb.tfwiki.net enabled. These strings need to be added to the mySites ACL definitions in /etc/squid/squid.conf on EVERY Caching Server.

* Similarly, abusive webcrawlers are filtered by User-Agent via regexes in the /etc/squid/badbrowsers.conf file. Well-behaved bots can be removed accordingly, but again, make sure that your edits are done to ALL Caching Servers!
** (At some point, this needs to go into a change control system and set to rsync transparently.)
** If you edit these files, a config reload is all that you'll need. Don't waste time restarting Squid.

===Mighty Feature, Mighty Server Drain===
* The Go-Box!
* No, seriously, the Go-Box was originally written to poll [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:Goicons&action=raw] each time it runs, as was the generator used for off-site signature blocks. So every time you pull up a page with a Gobox, the server polls itself for that list, using up a second connection, AND taxing the server to execute the PHP code.
* The GoBoxes are also called from MonacoBook, the TFWiki skin, so every time you pull up a page? You use up an Apache process JUST TO GRAB SOME RARELY-UPDATED XML.
* We've changed that to poll a file in <code>/var/lib/mediawiki/goicons.xml</code> instead, which is updated via a cron job. Make sure you replicate that whole deal if you ever duplicate the wiki, it's kinda important.
* Or, you could NOT replicate this step, and suffer the consequences of increased CPU load, and have an annoyed sysadmin. You don't want that.

===Coding Standards===
* Transformers Wiki:Semantic linking initiative

===Scripting===
* Transformers Wiki's editable javascript file is located at [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. It can only be altered by admins.
* Your personal javascript file can be located at [[Special:Mypage/monacobook.js|User:Username/monacobook.js]] or [[Special:Mypage/monoobook.js|User:Username/monobook.js]]. There does not appear to be a corresponding User:Username/common.js, annoyingly.
* [[User:Derik/javascript]] — Derik's loose documentation of the likely-to-be-useful Javascript functions on TFWiki. (You will not be able to use any of these functions without editing either the site's or your personal .js file though.)

===Hosting===

''Minor note: Much of these notes are here to keep us all in the loop, and should be wikified a little more than I'm going to get to tonight.''

* The current wiki, post Bookworm, is a metered, unmanaged [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server VPS] provided by [http://www.slicehost.com/ Slicehost.]
** As of January 2013, service has been relocated to [http://linode.com/ Linode]
** This provides us with a dedicated server under the Xen virtualization software. Our Linux distribution of choice was Debian 5.0, on a Xen-aware 2.6.24 SMP-capable kernel.
*** Now Debian 6!
* As of June 2009, it is running in a semi-optimized state, with MediaWiki configured to utilize a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_cache Squid] reverse proxy cache for all anonymous users, and a small [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memcached memcached] instance for all database queries.
** As of May 2011, functions are split between two boxes: Front-end hosts Squid, Apache, and Postfix, and the Back-end server hosts MySQL and Memcached. Disk IO contention has dropped to usable, if not ideal levels.
*** Functions are now split to three layers: 1 MySQL DB server, 1 Application server, running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix, and 2 Squid/Memcached servers. Load Balancers are run by a Linode-managed NodeBalancer.
** Squid has also been updated to use the AUFS file handler instead of UFS. This uses more disk I/O, but parallelizes cache access for better concurrency. I'm also investigating the COSS handler, but that's currently untested.
* MySQL is largely using InnoDB tables, which can be backed up in a live state, with the purchase of a hefty Innobackup license. This is not in the cards, so we are instead using LVM snapshots from Slicehost. This has been tested, and functions as expected.
** Still being done this way.
* FULL local filesystem backups are done via snapshot nightly and weekly. While these cannot be exported to another server, they do allow us to revert to the previous day's database/configuration/file library without much hassle.
** Long term, we should find someone to host an rsync backup of the entire /var/lib/mediawiki directory, along with an offsite replica of the MySQL database. While it would take a while to reupload the data, this would effectively preserve the wiki in the event of a complete catastrophic datacenter failure. (We'd be down for a while, but we wouldn't lose more than a day's work.)
* PHP session handling is done via the file handler, as the default Debian PHP package does NOT support the mm handler.
** This was a key issue with many of our page loading glitches when the wiki first launched on this platform.
====Configuration Settings====
Memcached: 192MB allocated per Squid cache
APC: 40MB allocated

On Echo (the apache/squid server,) noatime and data=writeback is enabled in /etc/fstab as of 6/24/2011. This should reduce the overall I/O load on the system, ideally giving us some added performance.

Noatime is still enabled on all servers, as per Linode defaults.

====Software versions====
* OS: Debian 7.0, Kernel 3.11.6
* Squid: 2.7
* Apache: 2.2.22
* Memcached: 1.4.5
* MySQL: 5.1.66
* PHP: 5.4.4
* MediaWiki: 1.19.5

===Future ideas===
* It is possible to host a Mediawiki installation on a Cloud Hosting provider, such as Rackspace's Mosso, or Amazon's EC2. This would basically give us a bomb-proof installation, ''as long as we also maintain proper backups.''
* Ideally, we should split the site into multiple servers: One for the database, one for the Squid cache(s), and one for the Apache webserver/memcached.
** Done, more or less. Memcached runs on the Squid servers.
* As long as we're at it, a local DB replica would allow us to back up just the database more frequently, without any impact on site performance. If we really want to get fancy, we could keep weekly, daily, and hourly backups, which could then be recovered within minutes. Right now, if we roll back the server, we go back in time for both the database '''and''' the images.
** Soon!
* Memcached only gets better as we allocate more RAM. This may become a priority, if we have the RAM to spare on the current box.
** Done and done, we're running pretty smoothly at present.

===Extensions===
* Aside from the ones that were blindly imported from the old wiki, we're now using the SpamBlacklist extension, with a modification to support Reverse DNS blacklist lookups. In short, make the wrong edit, or come from the wrong IP address, and you won't even get to make your edit.
*We are running a slightly newer version of the ConfirmEdit extension, specifically the one for Mediawiki 1.16 (it works with 1.15 fortunately) primarily because the newer version comes with QuestyCaptcha, which does a lot better job of keeping the spammers out.
* ConfirmEdit is now the 1.19 version, keeping things in-line with the Debian package manager.
* Multi-Category Search is presently disabled, it was borking the server completely. We'll need to do an error trace later.

[[Category:TFWiki.net]]

MediaWiki:Tech

2013-11-09T22:02:59Z

McFly: /* Extensions */

This '''Tech Portal''' is to serve as a clearinghouse for information related to technical issues on Transformers Wiki.

This page's purpose is to hold information-- any tech issues, questions or initiatives should be discussed on the main [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]] pages where everyone can weigh in. This page isn't an attempt to split-out discussion, merely to archive its results.

==Information==
===Basic Maintenance===
* Linode's given us a lot of new tricks. The big thing to keep in mind is that the new wiki depends upon two servers which are backed up nightly:
** The Database Server: This is running MySQL, and if we lose it, everyone's hard work goes down the toilet.
** The Application Server: This is running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix. If we lose it, we lose the mediawiki installation, all customizations (MonacoBook, GoBoxes, etc.), and even if we revive the wiki, it won't look the same.

* There are, however, a lovely middle layer: The Caching Servers. Each of these has a nigh-identical configuration, so if one dies, we simply don't care, as we can rebuild it very quickly from one of its brothers.
** Each Caching Server runs Squid and Memcached, and their IPs need to be registered in Mediawiki's LocalSettings.php so that it knows to handle them properly. Failure to do so will break IP address blocks in Mediawiki, and will waste RAM on the Caching servers that could otherwise go to Memcached, a '''powerful''' object caching engine that accelerates everything we do by avoiding long database queries.
** Each Caching Server also needs to be registered with the LoadBalancer, by simply copying the configuration of one of its peers and changing the internal IP address to match.
** Finally, due to webcrawler abuse, each Caching Server also needs to be updated with new hostnames. If we start adding foreign-language wikis to the mix, we would have to add en.tfwiki.net, es.tfwiki.net (Spanish,) and so on. If we ever launch that GoBots sub-wiki, we already have gb.tfwiki.net enabled. These strings need to be added to the mySites ACL definitions in /etc/squid/squid.conf on EVERY Caching Server.

* Similarly, abusive webcrawlers are filtered by User-Agent via regexes in the /etc/squid/badbrowsers.conf file. Well-behaved bots can be removed accordingly, but again, make sure that your edits are done to ALL Caching Servers!
** (At some point, this needs to go into a change control system and set to rsync transparently.)
** If you edit these files, a config reload is all that you'll need. Don't waste time restarting Squid.

===Mighty Feature, Mighty Server Drain===
* The Go-Box!
* No, seriously, the Go-Box was originally written to poll [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:Goicons&action=raw] each time it runs, as was the generator used for off-site signature blocks. So every time you pull up a page with a Gobox, the server polls itself for that list, using up a second connection, AND taxing the server to execute the PHP code.
* The GoBoxes are also called from MonacoBook, the TFWiki skin, so every time you pull up a page? You use up an Apache process JUST TO GRAB SOME RARELY-UPDATED XML.
* We've changed that to poll a file in <code>/var/lib/mediawiki/goicons.xml</code> instead, which is updated via a cron job. Make sure you replicate that whole deal if you ever duplicate the wiki, it's kinda important.
* Or, you could NOT replicate this step, and suffer the consequences of increased CPU load, and have an annoyed sysadmin. You don't want that.

===Coding Standards===
* Transformers Wiki:Semantic linking initiative

===Scripting===
* Transformers Wiki's editable javascript file is located at [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. It can only be altered by admins.
* Your personal javascript file can be located at [[Special:Mypage/monacobook.js|User:Username/monacobook.js]] or [[Special:Mypage/monoobook.js|User:Username/monobook.js]]. There does not appear to be a corresponding User:Username/common.js, annoyingly.
* [[User:Derik/javascript]] — Derik's loose documentation of the likely-to-be-useful Javascript functions on TFWiki. (You will not be able to use any of these functions without editing either the site's or your personal .js file though.)

===Hosting===

''Minor note: Much of these notes are here to keep us all in the loop, and should be wikified a little more than I'm going to get to tonight.''

* The current wiki, post Bookworm, is a metered, unmanaged [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server VPS] provided by [http://www.slicehost.com/ Slicehost.]
** As of January 2013, service has been relocated to [http://linode.com/ Linode]
** This provides us with a dedicated server under the Xen virtualization software. Our Linux distribution of choice was Debian 5.0, on a Xen-aware 2.6.24 SMP-capable kernel.
*** Now Debian 6!
* As of June 2009, it is running in a semi-optimized state, with MediaWiki configured to utilize a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_cache Squid] reverse proxy cache for all anonymous users, and a small [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memcached memcached] instance for all database queries.
** As of May 2011, functions are split between two boxes: Front-end hosts Squid, Apache, and Postfix, and the Back-end server hosts MySQL and Memcached. Disk IO contention has dropped to usable, if not ideal levels.
*** Functions are now split to three layers: 1 MySQL DB server, 1 Application server, running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix, and 2 Squid/Memcached servers. Load Balancers are run by a Linode-managed NodeBalancer.
** Squid has also been updated to use the AUFS file handler instead of UFS. This uses more disk I/O, but parallelizes cache access for better concurrency. I'm also investigating the COSS handler, but that's currently untested.
* MySQL is largely using InnoDB tables, which can be backed up in a live state, with the purchase of a hefty Innobackup license. This is not in the cards, so we are instead using LVM snapshots from Slicehost. This has been tested, and functions as expected.
** Still being done this way.
* FULL local filesystem backups are done via snapshot nightly and weekly. While these cannot be exported to another server, they do allow us to revert to the previous day's database/configuration/file library without much hassle.
** Long term, we should find someone to host an rsync backup of the entire /var/lib/mediawiki directory, along with an offsite replica of the MySQL database. While it would take a while to reupload the data, this would effectively preserve the wiki in the event of a complete catastrophic datacenter failure. (We'd be down for a while, but we wouldn't lose more than a day's work.)
* PHP session handling is done via the file handler, as the default Debian PHP package does NOT support the mm handler.
** This was a key issue with many of our page loading glitches when the wiki first launched on this platform.
====Configuration Settings====
Memcached: 192MB allocated per Squid cache
APC: 40MB allocated

On Echo (the apache/squid server,) noatime and data=writeback is enabled in /etc/fstab as of 6/24/2011. This should reduce the overall I/O load on the system, ideally giving us some added performance.

Noatime is still enabled on all servers, as per Linode defaults.

====Software versions====
* OS: Debian 7.0, Kernel 3.11.6
* Squid: 2.7
* Apache: 2.2.22
* Memcached: 1.4.5
* MySQL: 5.1.66
* PHP: 5.4.4
* MediaWiki: 1.19.5

===Future ideas===
* It is possible to host a Mediawiki installation on a Cloud Hosting provider, such as Rackspace's Mosso, or Amazon's EC2. This would basically give us a bomb-proof installation, ''as long as we also maintain proper backups.''
* Ideally, we should split the site into multiple servers: One for the database, one for the Squid cache(s), and one for the Apache webserver/memcached.
* As long as we're at it, a local DB replica would allow us to back up just the database more frequently, without any impact on site performance. If we really want to get fancy, we could keep weekly, daily, and hourly backups, which could then be recovered within minutes. Right now, if we roll back the server, we go back in time for both the database '''and''' the images.
* Memcached only gets better as we allocate more RAM. This may become a priority, if we have the RAM to spare on the current box.

===Extensions===
* Aside from the ones that were blindly imported from the old wiki, we're now using the SpamBlacklist extension, with a modification to support Reverse DNS blacklist lookups. In short, make the wrong edit, or come from the wrong IP address, and you won't even get to make your edit.
*We are running a slightly newer version of the ConfirmEdit extension, specifically the one for Mediawiki 1.16 (it works with 1.15 fortunately) primarily because the newer version comes with QuestyCaptcha, which does a lot better job of keeping the spammers out.
* ConfirmEdit is now the 1.19 version, keeping things in-line with the Debian package manager.
* Multi-Category Search is presently disabled, it was borking the server completely. We'll need to do an error trace later.

[[Category:TFWiki.net]]

MediaWiki:Tech

2013-11-09T20:58:17Z

McFly:

This '''Tech Portal''' is to serve as a clearinghouse for information related to technical issues on Transformers Wiki.

This page's purpose is to hold information-- any tech issues, questions or initiatives should be discussed on the main [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]] pages where everyone can weigh in. This page isn't an attempt to split-out discussion, merely to archive its results.

==Information==
===Basic Maintenance===
* Linode's given us a lot of new tricks. The big thing to keep in mind is that the new wiki depends upon two servers which are backed up nightly:
** The Database Server: This is running MySQL, and if we lose it, everyone's hard work goes down the toilet.
** The Application Server: This is running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix. If we lose it, we lose the mediawiki installation, all customizations (MonacoBook, GoBoxes, etc.), and even if we revive the wiki, it won't look the same.

* There are, however, a lovely middle layer: The Caching Servers. Each of these has a nigh-identical configuration, so if one dies, we simply don't care, as we can rebuild it very quickly from one of its brothers.
** Each Caching Server runs Squid and Memcached, and their IPs need to be registered in Mediawiki's LocalSettings.php so that it knows to handle them properly. Failure to do so will break IP address blocks in Mediawiki, and will waste RAM on the Caching servers that could otherwise go to Memcached, a '''powerful''' object caching engine that accelerates everything we do by avoiding long database queries.
** Each Caching Server also needs to be registered with the LoadBalancer, by simply copying the configuration of one of its peers and changing the internal IP address to match.
** Finally, due to webcrawler abuse, each Caching Server also needs to be updated with new hostnames. If we start adding foreign-language wikis to the mix, we would have to add en.tfwiki.net, es.tfwiki.net (Spanish,) and so on. If we ever launch that GoBots sub-wiki, we already have gb.tfwiki.net enabled. These strings need to be added to the mySites ACL definitions in /etc/squid/squid.conf on EVERY Caching Server.

* Similarly, abusive webcrawlers are filtered by User-Agent via regexes in the /etc/squid/badbrowsers.conf file. Well-behaved bots can be removed accordingly, but again, make sure that your edits are done to ALL Caching Servers!
** (At some point, this needs to go into a change control system and set to rsync transparently.)
** If you edit these files, a config reload is all that you'll need. Don't waste time restarting Squid.

===Mighty Feature, Mighty Server Drain===
* The Go-Box!
* No, seriously, the Go-Box was originally written to poll [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:Goicons&action=raw] each time it runs, as was the generator used for off-site signature blocks. So every time you pull up a page with a Gobox, the server polls itself for that list, using up a second connection, AND taxing the server to execute the PHP code.
* The GoBoxes are also called from MonacoBook, the TFWiki skin, so every time you pull up a page? You use up an Apache process JUST TO GRAB SOME RARELY-UPDATED XML.
* We've changed that to poll a file in <code>/var/lib/mediawiki/goicons.xml</code> instead, which is updated via a cron job. Make sure you replicate that whole deal if you ever duplicate the wiki, it's kinda important.
* Or, you could NOT replicate this step, and suffer the consequences of increased CPU load, and have an annoyed sysadmin. You don't want that.

===Coding Standards===
* Transformers Wiki:Semantic linking initiative

===Scripting===
* Transformers Wiki's editable javascript file is located at [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. It can only be altered by admins.
* Your personal javascript file can be located at [[Special:Mypage/monacobook.js|User:Username/monacobook.js]] or [[Special:Mypage/monoobook.js|User:Username/monobook.js]]. There does not appear to be a corresponding User:Username/common.js, annoyingly.
* [[User:Derik/javascript]] — Derik's loose documentation of the likely-to-be-useful Javascript functions on TFWiki. (You will not be able to use any of these functions without editing either the site's or your personal .js file though.)

===Hosting===

''Minor note: Much of these notes are here to keep us all in the loop, and should be wikified a little more than I'm going to get to tonight.''

* The current wiki, post Bookworm, is a metered, unmanaged [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server VPS] provided by [http://www.slicehost.com/ Slicehost.]
** As of January 2013, service has been relocated to [http://linode.com/ Linode]
** This provides us with a dedicated server under the Xen virtualization software. Our Linux distribution of choice was Debian 5.0, on a Xen-aware 2.6.24 SMP-capable kernel.
*** Now Debian 6!
* As of June 2009, it is running in a semi-optimized state, with MediaWiki configured to utilize a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_cache Squid] reverse proxy cache for all anonymous users, and a small [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memcached memcached] instance for all database queries.
** As of May 2011, functions are split between two boxes: Front-end hosts Squid, Apache, and Postfix, and the Back-end server hosts MySQL and Memcached. Disk IO contention has dropped to usable, if not ideal levels.
*** Functions are now split to three layers: 1 MySQL DB server, 1 Application server, running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix, and 2 Squid/Memcached servers. Load Balancers are run by a Linode-managed NodeBalancer.
** Squid has also been updated to use the AUFS file handler instead of UFS. This uses more disk I/O, but parallelizes cache access for better concurrency. I'm also investigating the COSS handler, but that's currently untested.
* MySQL is largely using InnoDB tables, which can be backed up in a live state, with the purchase of a hefty Innobackup license. This is not in the cards, so we are instead using LVM snapshots from Slicehost. This has been tested, and functions as expected.
** Still being done this way.
* FULL local filesystem backups are done via snapshot nightly and weekly. While these cannot be exported to another server, they do allow us to revert to the previous day's database/configuration/file library without much hassle.
** Long term, we should find someone to host an rsync backup of the entire /var/lib/mediawiki directory, along with an offsite replica of the MySQL database. While it would take a while to reupload the data, this would effectively preserve the wiki in the event of a complete catastrophic datacenter failure. (We'd be down for a while, but we wouldn't lose more than a day's work.)
* PHP session handling is done via the file handler, as the default Debian PHP package does NOT support the mm handler.
** This was a key issue with many of our page loading glitches when the wiki first launched on this platform.
====Configuration Settings====
Memcached: 192MB allocated per Squid cache
APC: 40MB allocated

On Echo (the apache/squid server,) noatime and data=writeback is enabled in /etc/fstab as of 6/24/2011. This should reduce the overall I/O load on the system, ideally giving us some added performance.

Noatime is still enabled on all servers, as per Linode defaults.

====Software versions====
* OS: Debian 7.0, Kernel 3.11.6
* Squid: 2.7
* Apache: 2.2.22
* Memcached: 1.4.5
* MySQL: 5.1.66
* PHP: 5.4.4
* MediaWiki: 1.19.5

===Future ideas===
* It is possible to host a Mediawiki installation on a Cloud Hosting provider, such as Rackspace's Mosso, or Amazon's EC2. This would basically give us a bomb-proof installation, ''as long as we also maintain proper backups.''
* Ideally, we should split the site into multiple servers: One for the database, one for the Squid cache(s), and one for the Apache webserver/memcached.
* As long as we're at it, a local DB replica would allow us to back up just the database more frequently, without any impact on site performance. If we really want to get fancy, we could keep weekly, daily, and hourly backups, which could then be recovered within minutes. Right now, if we roll back the server, we go back in time for both the database '''and''' the images.
* Memcached only gets better as we allocate more RAM. This may become a priority, if we have the RAM to spare on the current box.

===Extensions===
* Aside from the ones that were blindly imported from the old wiki, we're now using the SpamBlacklist extension, with a modification to support Reverse DNS blacklist lookups. In short, make the wrong edit, or come from the wrong IP address, and you won't even get to make your edit.
*We are running a slightly newer version of the ConfirmEdit extension, specifically the one for Mediawiki 1.16 (it works with 1.15 fortunately) primarily because the newer version comes with QuestyCaptcha, which does a lot better job of keeping the spammers out.

[[Category:TFWiki.net]]

MediaWiki:Tech

2013-11-09T20:55:46Z

McFly:

This '''Tech Portal''' is to serve as a clearinghouse for information related to technical issues on Transformers Wiki..

This page's purpose is to hold information-- any tech issues, questions or initiatives should be discussed on the main [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]] pages where everyone can weigh in. This page isn't an attempt to split-out discussion, merely to archive its results.

==Information==
===Basic Maintenance===
* Linode's given us a lot of new tricks. The big thing to keep in mind is that the new wiki depends upon two servers which are backed up nightly:
** The Database Server: This is running MySQL, and if we lose it, everyone's hard work goes down the toilet.
** The Application Server: This is running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix. If we lose it, we lose the mediawiki installation, all customizations (MonacoBook, GoBoxes, etc.), and even if we revive the wiki, it won't look the same.

* There are, however, a lovely middle layer: The Caching Servers. Each of these has a nigh-identical configuration, so if one dies, we simply don't care, as we can rebuild it very quickly from one of its brothers.
** Each Caching Server runs Squid and Memcached, and their IPs need to be registered in Mediawiki's LocalSettings.php so that it knows to handle them properly. Failure to do so will break IP address blocks in Mediawiki, and will waste RAM on the Caching servers that could otherwise go to Memcached, a '''powerful''' object caching engine that accelerates everything we do by avoiding long database queries.
** Each Caching Server also needs to be registered with the LoadBalancer, by simply copying the configuration of one of its peers and changing the internal IP address to match.
** Finally, due to webcrawler abuse, each Caching Server also needs to be updated with new hostnames. If we start adding foreign-language wikis to the mix, we would have to add en.tfwiki.net, es.tfwiki.net (Spanish,) and so on. If we ever launch that GoBots sub-wiki, we already have gb.tfwiki.net enabled. These strings need to be added to the mySites ACL definitions in /etc/squid/squid.conf on EVERY Caching Server.

* Similarly, abusive webcrawlers are filtered by User-Agent via regexes in the /etc/squid/badbrowsers.conf file. Well-behaved bots can be removed accordingly, but again, make sure that your edits are done to ALL Caching Servers!
** (At some point, this needs to go into a change control system and set to rsync transparently.)
** If you edit these files, a config reload is all that you'll need. Don't waste time restarting Squid.

===Mighty Feature, Mighty Server Drain===
* The Go-Box!
* No, seriously, the Go-Box was originally written to poll [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:Goicons&action=raw] each time it runs, as was the generator used for off-site signature blocks. So every time you pull up a page with a Gobox, the server polls itself for that list, using up a second connection, AND taxing the server to execute the PHP code.
* The GoBoxes are also called from MonacoBook, the TFWiki skin, so every time you pull up a page? You use up an Apache process JUST TO GRAB SOME RARELY-UPDATED XML.
* We've changed that to poll a file in <code>/var/lib/mediawiki/goicons.xml</code> instead, which is updated via a cron job. Make sure you replicate that whole deal if you ever duplicate the wiki, it's kinda important.
* Or, you could NOT replicate this step, and suffer the consequences of increased CPU load, and have an annoyed sysadmin. You don't want that.

===Coding Standards===
* Transformers Wiki:Semantic linking initiative

===Scripting===
* Transformers Wiki's editable javascript file is located at [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. It can only be altered by admins.
* Your personal javascript file can be located at [[Special:Mypage/monacobook.js|User:Username/monacobook.js]] or [[Special:Mypage/monoobook.js|User:Username/monobook.js]]. There does not appear to be a corresponding User:Username/common.js, annoyingly.
* [[User:Derik/javascript]] — Derik's loose documentation of the likely-to-be-useful Javascript functions on TFWiki. (You will not be able to use any of these functions without editing either the site's or your personal .js file though.)

===Hosting===

''Minor note: Much of these notes are here to keep us all in the loop, and should be wikified a little more than I'm going to get to tonight.''

* The current wiki, post Bookworm, is a metered, unmanaged [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server VPS] provided by [http://www.slicehost.com/ Slicehost.]
** As of January 2013, service has been relocated to [http://linode.com/ Linode]
** This provides us with a dedicated server under the Xen virtualization software. Our Linux distribution of choice was Debian 5.0, on a Xen-aware 2.6.24 SMP-capable kernel.
*** Now Debian 6!
* As of June 2009, it is running in a semi-optimized state, with MediaWiki configured to utilize a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_cache Squid] reverse proxy cache for all anonymous users, and a small [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memcached memcached] instance for all database queries.
** As of May 2011, functions are split between two boxes: Front-end hosts Squid, Apache, and Postfix, and the Back-end server hosts MySQL and Memcached. Disk IO contention has dropped to usable, if not ideal levels.
*** Functions are now split to three layers: 1 MySQL DB server, 1 Application server, running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix, and 2 Squid/Memcached servers. Load Balancers are run by a Linode-managed NodeBalancer.
** Squid has also been updated to use the AUFS file handler instead of UFS. This uses more disk I/O, but parallelizes cache access for better concurrency. I'm also investigating the COSS handler, but that's currently untested.
* MySQL is largely using InnoDB tables, which can be backed up in a live state, with the purchase of a hefty Innobackup license. This is not in the cards, so we are instead using LVM snapshots from Slicehost. This has been tested, and functions as expected.
** Still being done this way.
* FULL local filesystem backups are done via snapshot nightly and weekly. While these cannot be exported to another server, they do allow us to revert to the previous day's database/configuration/file library without much hassle.
** Long term, we should find someone to host an rsync backup of the entire /var/lib/mediawiki directory, along with an offsite replica of the MySQL database. While it would take a while to reupload the data, this would effectively preserve the wiki in the event of a complete catastrophic datacenter failure. (We'd be down for a while, but we wouldn't lose more than a day's work.)
* PHP session handling is done via the file handler, as the default Debian PHP package does NOT support the mm handler.
** This was a key issue with many of our page loading glitches when the wiki first launched on this platform.
====Configuration Settings====
Memcached: 192MB allocated per Squid cache
APC: 40MB allocated

On Echo (the apache/squid server,) noatime and data=writeback is enabled in /etc/fstab as of 6/24/2011. This should reduce the overall I/O load on the system, ideally giving us some added performance.

Noatime is still enabled on all servers, as per Linode defaults.

====Software versions====
* OS: Debian 6.0, Kernel 3.6.5
* Squid: 2.7
* Apache: 2.2.16
* Memcached: 1.4.5
* MySQL: 5.1.66
* MediaWiki: 1.15.0

===Future ideas===
* It is possible to host a Mediawiki installation on a Cloud Hosting provider, such as Rackspace's Mosso, or Amazon's EC2. This would basically give us a bomb-proof installation, ''as long as we also maintain proper backups.''
* Ideally, we should split the site into multiple servers: One for the database, one for the Squid cache(s), and one for the Apache webserver/memcached.
* As long as we're at it, a local DB replica would allow us to back up just the database more frequently, without any impact on site performance. If we really want to get fancy, we could keep weekly, daily, and hourly backups, which could then be recovered within minutes. Right now, if we roll back the server, we go back in time for both the database '''and''' the images.
* Memcached only gets better as we allocate more RAM. This may become a priority, if we have the RAM to spare on the current box.

===Extensions===
* Aside from the ones that were blindly imported from the old wiki, we're now using the SpamBlacklist extension, with a modification to support Reverse DNS blacklist lookups. In short, make the wrong edit, or come from the wrong IP address, and you won't even get to make your edit.
*We are running a slightly newer version of the ConfirmEdit extension, specifically the one for Mediawiki 1.16 (it works with 1.15 fortunately) primarily because the newer version comes with QuestyCaptcha, which does a lot better job of keeping the spammers out.

[[Category:TFWiki.net]]

Main Page

2013-07-21T05:19:57Z

McFly: Just forcing a cache update, since squid went a little wonky on the main page. Bad squid!

__NOTOC__ __NOEDITSECTION__

{{:Main Page/disambig}}
{| border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"
|-
|style="text-align:center;" width="60%" valign="top"|
{{:Main Page/logo}}

<div style="width:272px;margin-left:auto;margin-right:auto;position:relative;">
<div style="width:160px;position:absolute;z-index:2;top:10px;">We're also at [http://www.tfwiki.info/ tfwiki.info], [https://plus.google.com/b/106006102124340784739/ Google+], and these websites:</div><div style=""><imagemap>
Image:External website link icons.png|center|272px
rect 4 65 50 111 [http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=28226443881 Give me your Facebook!]
rect 72 65 119 111 [http://twitter.com/tfwiki Our Twitter feed]
rect 141 65 186 111 [http://tfwiki.blogspot.com/ Our status blog]
rect 187 0 271 112 [[Ravage (SG)|Can you see me? I'm waving!]]
rect 160 0 186 64 [[Ravage (SG)|Can you see me? I'm waving!]]
desc none
</imagemap></div></div>
|width="30%"|
{{Featurebox
|Current Releases
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|view=Main Page/featured-series
|content={{:Main Page/featured-series}}
}}
|}
{| border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
|- valign="top"
| width="50%"|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Article
|color=#c93
|id=featured-article
|view=Main Page/featured-article
|content={{:Main Page/featured-article}}[[:Category:Featured articles|More Featured Articles]]
}}
{{Featurebox
|Holy Grails
|color=#606
|id=holy-grails
|content={{:Main Page/holy-grails}}
|view=Main Page/holy-grails
}}
{{Featurebox
|Want List
|color=#606
|id=want-list
|content={{:Main Page/want-list}}
|view=Main Page/want-list
}}
{{Featurebox
|Editing Tips
|color=#000
|id=editing-tips
|content={{:Main Page/editing-tips}}
|view=Main Page/editing-tips
}}
|width="50%"|
{{Featurebox
|Continuities
|color=#039
|id=continuities
|content={{:Main_Page/continuities}}
|view=Main_Page/continuities
}}
{{Featurebox
|Categories
|color=#c03
|id=categories
|content={{:Main_Page/categories}}
|view=Main_Page/categories
}}
{{Featurebox
|This Day in History: {{#ifeq:{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}|May 8|{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}} Happy {{#expr:{{CURRENTYEAR}}-1984}}{{#switch:{{#expr:({{CURRENTYEAR}}-1984) mod 10}}|1=st|2=nd|3=rd|th}} Anniversary to Transformers!|{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}}}
|content={{#ifexist:{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}| {{:{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}}}|
*It looks like today was a pretty boring day in Transformers history. If you can think of anything we missed, please [[{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}|help us by adding it]]!}}
|id=this-day
|color=green
|view={{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}
}}
{{Featurebox
|Schedule
|color=#754c24
|id=schedule
|content={{:Main Page/schedule}}
|view=Main Page/schedule
}}
|}
{{Featurebox
|Series Information
|color=#096
|id=series-information
|content={{:Main_Page/series-information}}
|view=Main_Page/series-information
}}
[[Category:Top-level categories]]

Main Page

2013-07-21T05:18:22Z

McFly:

__NOTOC__ __NOEDITSECTION__

{{:Main Page/disambig}}
{| border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" width="100%"
|-
|style="text-align:center;" width="60%" valign="top"|
{{:Main Page/logo}}

<div style="width:272px;margin-left:auto;margin-right:auto;position:relative;">
<div style="width:160px;position:absolute;z-index:2;top:10px;">We're also at [http://www.tfwiki.info/ tfwiki.info], [https://plus.google.com/b/106006102124340784739/ Google+], and these websites:</div><div style=""><imagemap>
Image:External website link icons.png|center|272px
rect 4 65 50 111 [http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=28226443881 Give me your Facebook!]
rect 72 65 119 111 [http://twitter.com/tfwiki Our Twitter feed]
rect 141 65 186 111 [http://tfwiki.blogspot.com/ Our status blag]
rect 187 0 271 112 [[Ravage (SG)|Can you see me? I'm waving!]]
rect 160 0 186 64 [[Ravage (SG)|Can you see me? I'm waving!]]
desc none
</imagemap></div></div>
|width="30%"|
{{Featurebox
|Current Releases
|color=#999
|id=featured-series
|view=Main Page/featured-series
|content={{:Main Page/featured-series}}
}}
|}
{| border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"
|- valign="top"
| width="50%"|
{{Featurebox
|Featured Article
|color=#c93
|id=featured-article
|view=Main Page/featured-article
|content={{:Main Page/featured-article}}[[:Category:Featured articles|More Featured Articles]]
}}
{{Featurebox
|Holy Grails
|color=#606
|id=holy-grails
|content={{:Main Page/holy-grails}}
|view=Main Page/holy-grails
}}
{{Featurebox
|Want List
|color=#606
|id=want-list
|content={{:Main Page/want-list}}
|view=Main Page/want-list
}}
{{Featurebox
|Editing Tips
|color=#000
|id=editing-tips
|content={{:Main Page/editing-tips}}
|view=Main Page/editing-tips
}}
|width="50%"|
{{Featurebox
|Continuities
|color=#039
|id=continuities
|content={{:Main_Page/continuities}}
|view=Main_Page/continuities
}}
{{Featurebox
|Categories
|color=#c03
|id=categories
|content={{:Main_Page/categories}}
|view=Main_Page/categories
}}
{{Featurebox
|This Day in History: {{#ifeq:{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}|May 8|{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}} Happy {{#expr:{{CURRENTYEAR}}-1984}}{{#switch:{{#expr:({{CURRENTYEAR}}-1984) mod 10}}|1=st|2=nd|3=rd|th}} Anniversary to Transformers!|{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}}}
|content={{#ifexist:{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}| {{:{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}}}|
*It looks like today was a pretty boring day in Transformers history. If you can think of anything we missed, please [[{{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}|help us by adding it]]!}}
|id=this-day
|color=green
|view={{LOCALMONTHNAME}} {{LOCALDAY}}
}}
{{Featurebox
|Schedule
|color=#754c24
|id=schedule
|content={{:Main Page/schedule}}
|view=Main Page/schedule
}}
|}
{{Featurebox
|Series Information
|color=#096
|id=series-information
|content={{:Main_Page/series-information}}
|view=Main_Page/series-information
}}
[[Category:Top-level categories]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2013-01-28T22:50:23Z

McFly:

MediaWiki:Tech

2013-01-28T22:45:18Z

McFly: /* Information */

This '''Tech Portal''' is to serve as a clearinghouse for information related to technical issues on Transformers Wiki.

This page's purpose is to hold information-- any tech issues, questions or initiatives should be discussed on the main [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]] pages where everyone can weigh in. This page isn't an attempt to split-out discussion, merely to archive its results.

==Information==
===Basic Maintenance===
* Linode's given us a lot of new tricks. The big thing to keep in mind is that the new wiki depends upon two servers which are backed up nightly:
** The Database Server: This is running MySQL, and if we lose it, everyone's hard work goes down the toilet.
** The Application Server: This is running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix. If we lose it, we lose the mediawiki installation, all customizations (MonacoBook, GoBoxes, etc.), and even if we revive the wiki, it won't look the same.

* There are, however, a lovely middle layer: The Caching Servers. Each of these has a nigh-identical configuration, so if one dies, we simply don't care, as we can rebuild it very quickly from one of its brothers.
** Each Caching Server runs Squid and Memcached, and their IPs need to be registered in Mediawiki's LocalSettings.php so that it knows to handle them properly. Failure to do so will break IP address blocks in Mediawiki, and will waste RAM on the Caching servers that could otherwise go to Memcached, a '''powerful''' object caching engine that accelerates everything we do by avoiding long database queries.
** Each Caching Server also needs to be registered with the LoadBalancer, by simply copying the configuration of one of its peers and changing the internal IP address to match.
** Finally, due to webcrawler abuse, each Caching Server also needs to be updated with new hostnames. If we start adding foreign-language wikis to the mix, we would have to add en.tfwiki.net, es.tfwiki.net (Spanish,) and so on. If we ever launch that GoBots sub-wiki, we already have gb.tfwiki.net enabled. These strings need to be added to the mySites ACL definitions in /etc/squid/squid.conf on EVERY Caching Server.

* Similarly, abusive webcrawlers are filtered by User-Agent via regexes in the /etc/squid/badbrowsers.conf file. Well-behaved bots can be removed accordingly, but again, make sure that your edits are done to ALL Caching Servers!
** (At some point, this needs to go into a change control system and set to rsync transparently.)
** If you edit these files, a config reload is all that you'll need. Don't waste time restarting Squid.

===Mighty Feature, Mighty Server Drain===
* The Go-Box!
* No, seriously, the Go-Box was originally written to poll [http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Template:Goicons&action=raw] each time it runs, as was the generator used for off-site signature blocks. So every time you pull up a page with a Gobox, the server polls itself for that list, using up a second connection, AND taxing the server to execute the PHP code.
* The GoBoxes are also called from MonacoBook, the TFWiki skin, so every time you pull up a page? You use up an Apache process JUST TO GRAB SOME RARELY-UPDATED XML.
* We've changed that to poll a file in <code>/var/lib/mediawiki/goicons.xml</code> instead, which is updated via a cron job. Make sure you replicate that whole deal if you ever duplicate the wiki, it's kinda important.
* Or, you could NOT replicate this step, and suffer the consequences of increased CPU load, and have an annoyed sysadmin. You don't want that.

===Coding Standards===
* Transformers Wiki:Semantic linking initiative

===Scripting===
* Transformers Wiki's editable javascript file is located at [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. It can only be altered by admins.
* Your personal javascript file can be located at [[Special:Mypage/monacobook.js|User:Username/monacobook.js]] or [[Special:Mypage/monoobook.js|User:Username/monobook.js]]. There does not appear to be a corresponding User:Username/common.js, annoyingly.
* [[User:Derik/javascript]] — Derik's loose documentation of the likely-to-be-useful Javascript functions on TFWiki. (You will not be able to use any of these functions without editing either the site's or your personal .js file though.)

===Hosting===

''Minor note: Much of these notes are here to keep us all in the loop, and should be wikified a little more than I'm going to get to tonight.''

* The current wiki, post Bookworm, is a metered, unmanaged [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server VPS] provided by [http://www.slicehost.com/ Slicehost.]
** As of January 2013, service has been relocated to [http://linode.com/ Linode]
** This provides us with a dedicated server under the Xen virtualization software. Our Linux distribution of choice was Debian 5.0, on a Xen-aware 2.6.24 SMP-capable kernel.
*** Now Debian 6!
* As of June 2009, it is running in a semi-optimized state, with MediaWiki configured to utilize a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_cache Squid] reverse proxy cache for all anonymous users, and a small [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memcached memcached] instance for all database queries.
** As of May 2011, functions are split between two boxes: Front-end hosts Squid, Apache, and Postfix, and the Back-end server hosts MySQL and Memcached. Disk IO contention has dropped to usable, if not ideal levels.
*** Functions are now split to three layers: 1 MySQL DB server, 1 Application server, running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix, and 2 Squid/Memcached servers. Load Balancers are run by a Linode-managed NodeBalancer.
** Squid has also been updated to use the AUFS file handler instead of UFS. This uses more disk I/O, but parallelizes cache access for better concurrency. I'm also investigating the COSS handler, but that's currently untested.
* MySQL is largely using InnoDB tables, which can be backed up in a live state, with the purchase of a hefty Innobackup license. This is not in the cards, so we are instead using LVM snapshots from Slicehost. This has been tested, and functions as expected.
** Still being done this way.
* FULL local filesystem backups are done via snapshot nightly and weekly. While these cannot be exported to another server, they do allow us to revert to the previous day's database/configuration/file library without much hassle.
** Long term, we should find someone to host an rsync backup of the entire /var/lib/mediawiki directory, along with an offsite replica of the MySQL database. While it would take a while to reupload the data, this would effectively preserve the wiki in the event of a complete catastrophic datacenter failure. (We'd be down for a while, but we wouldn't lose more than a day's work.)
* PHP session handling is done via the file handler, as the default Debian PHP package does NOT support the mm handler.
** This was a key issue with many of our page loading glitches when the wiki first launched on this platform.
====Configuration Settings====
Memcached: 192MB allocated per Squid cache
APC: 40MB allocated

On Echo (the apache/squid server,) noatime and data=writeback is enabled in /etc/fstab as of 6/24/2011. This should reduce the overall I/O load on the system, ideally giving us some added performance.

Noatime is still enabled on all servers, as per Linode defaults.

====Software versions====
* OS: Debian 6.0, Kernel 3.6.5
* Squid: 2.7
* Apache: 2.2.16
* Memcached: 1.4.5
* MySQL: 5.1.66
* MediaWiki: 1.15.0

===Future ideas===
* It is possible to host a Mediawiki installation on a Cloud Hosting provider, such as Rackspace's Mosso, or Amazon's EC2. This would basically give us a bomb-proof installation, ''as long as we also maintain proper backups.''
* Ideally, we should split the site into multiple servers: One for the database, one for the Squid cache(s), and one for the Apache webserver/memcached.
* As long as we're at it, a local DB replica would allow us to back up just the database more frequently, without any impact on site performance. If we really want to get fancy, we could keep weekly, daily, and hourly backups, which could then be recovered within minutes. Right now, if we roll back the server, we go back in time for both the database '''and''' the images.
* Memcached only gets better as we allocate more RAM. This may become a priority, if we have the RAM to spare on the current box.

===Extensions===
* Aside from the ones that were blindly imported from the old wiki, we're now using the SpamBlacklist extension, with a modification to support Reverse DNS blacklist lookups. In short, make the wrong edit, or come from the wrong IP address, and you won't even get to make your edit.

[[Category:TFWiki.net]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2013-01-24T04:52:59Z

McFly: /* Still Confused About All This */

MediaWiki:Tech

2013-01-22T22:30:07Z

McFly: /* Information */

This '''Tech Portal''' is to serve as a clearinghouse for information related to technical issues on Transformers Wiki.

This page's purpose is to hold information-- any tech issues, questions or initiatives should be discussed on the main [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal|Community Portal]] pages where everyone can weigh in. This page isn't an attempt to split-out discussion, merely to archive its results.

==Information==
===Basic Maintenance===
* Linode's given us a lot of new tricks. The big thing to keep in mind is that the new wiki depends upon two servers which are backed up nightly:
** The Database Server: This is running MySQL, and if we lose it, everyone's hard work goes down the toilet.
** The Application Server: This is running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix. If we lose it, we lose the mediawiki installation, all customizations (MonacoBook, GoBoxes, etc.), and even if we revive the wiki, it won't look the same.

* There are, however, a lovely middle layer: The Caching Servers. Each of these has a nigh-identical configuration, so if one dies, we simply don't care, as we can rebuild it very quickly from one of its brothers.
** Each Caching Server runs Squid and Memcached, and their IPs need to be registered in Mediawiki's LocalSettings.php so that it knows to handle them properly. Failure to do so will break IP address blocks in Mediawiki, and will waste RAM on the Caching servers that could otherwise go to Memcached, a '''powerful''' object caching engine that accelerates everything we do by avoiding long database queries.
** Each Caching Server also needs to be registered with the LoadBalancer, by simply copying the configuration of one of its peers and changing the internal IP address to match.
** Finally, due to webcrawler abuse, each Caching Server also needs to be updated with new hostnames. If we start adding foreign-language wikis to the mix, we would have to add en.tfwiki.net, es.tfwiki.net (Spanish,) and so on. If we ever launch that GoBots sub-wiki, we already have gb.tfwiki.net enabled. These strings need to be added to the mySites ACL definitions in /etc/squid/squid.conf on EVERY Caching Server.

* Similarly, abusive webcrawlers are filtered by User-Agent via regexes in the /etc/squid/badbrowsers.conf file. Well-behaved bots can be removed accordingly, but again, make sure that your edits are done to ALL Caching Servers!
** (At some point, this needs to go into a change control system and set to rsync transparently.)
** If you edit these files, a config reload is all that you'll need. Don't waste time restarting Squid.

===Coding Standards===
* Transformers Wiki:Semantic linking initiative

===Scripting===
* Transformers Wiki's editable javascript file is located at [[MediaWiki:Common.css]]. It can only be altered by admins.
* Your personal javascript file can be located at [[Special:Mypage/monacobook.js|User:Username/monacobook.js]] or [[Special:Mypage/monoobook.js|User:Username/monobook.js]]. There does not appear to be a corresponding User:Username/common.js, annoyingly.
* [[User:Derik/javascript]] — Derik's loose documentation of the likely-to-be-useful Javascript functions on TFWiki. (You will not be able to use any of these functions without editing either the site's or your personal .js file though.)

===Hosting===

''Minor note: Much of these notes are here to keep us all in the loop, and should be wikified a little more than I'm going to get to tonight.''

* The current wiki, post Bookworm, is a metered, unmanaged [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_private_server VPS] provided by [http://www.slicehost.com/ Slicehost.]
** As of January 2013, service has been relocated to [http://linode.com/ Linode]
** This provides us with a dedicated server under the Xen virtualization software. Our Linux distribution of choice was Debian 5.0, on a Xen-aware 2.6.24 SMP-capable kernel.
*** Now Debian 6!
* As of June 2009, it is running in a semi-optimized state, with MediaWiki configured to utilize a [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squid_cache Squid] reverse proxy cache for all anonymous users, and a small [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memcached memcached] instance for all database queries.
** As of May 2011, functions are split between two boxes: Front-end hosts Squid, Apache, and Postfix, and the Back-end server hosts MySQL and Memcached. Disk IO contention has dropped to usable, if not ideal levels.
*** Functions are now split to three layers: 1 MySQL DB server, 1 Application server, running Apache, ProFTPd, and Postfix, and 2 Squid/Memcached servers. Load Balancers are run by a Linode-managed NodeBalancer.
** Squid has also been updated to use the AUFS file handler instead of UFS. This uses more disk I/O, but parallelizes cache access for better concurrency. I'm also investigating the COSS handler, but that's currently untested.
* MySQL is largely using InnoDB tables, which can be backed up in a live state, with the purchase of a hefty Innobackup license. This is not in the cards, so we are instead using LVM snapshots from Slicehost. This has been tested, and functions as expected.
** Still being done this way.
* FULL local filesystem backups are done via snapshot nightly and weekly. While these cannot be exported to another server, they do allow us to revert to the previous day's database/configuration/file library without much hassle.
** Long term, we should find someone to host an rsync backup of the entire /var/lib/mediawiki directory, along with an offsite replica of the MySQL database. While it would take a while to reupload the data, this would effectively preserve the wiki in the event of a complete catastrophic datacenter failure. (We'd be down for a while, but we wouldn't lose more than a day's work.)
* PHP session handling is done via the file handler, as the default Debian PHP package does NOT support the mm handler.
** This was a key issue with many of our page loading glitches when the wiki first launched on this platform.
====Configuration Settings====
Memcached: 192MB allocated per Squid cache
APC: 40MB allocated

On Echo (the apache/squid server,) noatime and data=writeback is enabled in /etc/fstab as of 6/24/2011. This should reduce the overall I/O load on the system, ideally giving us some added performance.

Noatime is still enabled on all servers, as per Linode defaults.

====Software versions====
* OS: Debian 6.0, Kernel 3.6.5
* Squid: 2.7
* Apache: 2.2.16
* Memcached: 1.4.5
* MySQL: 5.1.66
* MediaWiki: 1.15.0

===Future ideas===
* It is possible to host a Mediawiki installation on a Cloud Hosting provider, such as Rackspace's Mosso, or Amazon's EC2. This would basically give us a bomb-proof installation, ''as long as we also maintain proper backups.''
* Ideally, we should split the site into multiple servers: One for the database, one for the Squid cache(s), and one for the Apache webserver/memcached.
* As long as we're at it, a local DB replica would allow us to back up just the database more frequently, without any impact on site performance. If we really want to get fancy, we could keep weekly, daily, and hourly backups, which could then be recovered within minutes. Right now, if we roll back the server, we go back in time for both the database '''and''' the images.
* Memcached only gets better as we allocate more RAM. This may become a priority, if we have the RAM to spare on the current box.

===Extensions===
* Aside from the ones that were blindly imported from the old wiki, we're now using the SpamBlacklist extension, with a modification to support Reverse DNS blacklist lookups. In short, make the wrong edit, or come from the wrong IP address, and you won't even get to make your edit.

[[Category:TFWiki.net]]

User talk:Jalaguy

2013-01-18T21:43:59Z

McFly: /* Maintenance */

I hope I'm not bothering but, who is going to write the new episodes in TFP? [[User:Joybells|Joybells]] 09:57, 15 October 2012 (EDT)Joybells

Thanks for helping me with that question though. I'll just wait.[[User:Joybells|Joybells]] 23:27, 15 October 2012 (EDT)Joybells

I understand, but I made more images of the Constructicon shovel from TF2 ROTF and I planned to upload them to that page.--[[User:Constructifan|Constructifan]] 12:48, 8 December 2012 (EST)

Ok, I'll try my best. :)--[[User:Constructifan|Constructifan]] 12:49, 8 December 2012 (EST)

Now what? I just started adding jpg images and you go ahead and take them off. (sigh) Why?--[[User:Constructifan|Constructifan]] 13:49, 8 December 2012 (EST)
:What I said about the wiki not doing anything like step-by-step transformations still stands. With the images, I meant for future reference. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 14:14, 8 December 2012 (EST)

== Predacon bird ==

Do you know anything of the "Predacon bird"? Where can I find a picture of it?[[User:Transfan 1992|Transfan 1992]] 19:10, 11 December 2012 (EST)
:Beyond advising searching the internet for the Car Robot episode in question, I'm afraid I can't help. Sorry. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 19:36, 11 December 2012 (EST)

== Maintenance ==

Hey, if they're a new user who's spamming right away, feel free to block them and delete all of their content. We can always revert if it was a mistake, and the rest of us play a zero-tolerance game with the spammers. Thanks for your help!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:48, 18 January 2013 (EST)
:I can blank their spam pages, sure, but I can't block them, don't have sysops... [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 15:53, 18 January 2013 (EST)
::Well then, keep it up! Your efforts keep this wiki clean! Thank you!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:43, 18 January 2013 (EST)

User talk:Jalaguy

2013-01-18T20:48:12Z

McFly:

MediaWiki:Tech

2013-01-17T04:26:35Z

McFly:

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2013-01-17T01:21:33Z

McFly: /* Continuing spam */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2013-01-16T16:50:53Z

McFly: /* Continuing spam */

User:McFly

2013-01-16T15:41:02Z

McFly:

Overall geek, burnout, and person who builds datacenters. Probably won't post much in the way of content, but will be quite pleased to help architect the best New New Hosting Solution and keep it from drooling over itself.

: This is a test of the Watchlist system. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 03:01, 6 June 2009 (EDT)

:: Test from cache02
:: Test from cache01

User:McFly

2013-01-16T15:40:04Z

McFly:

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2013-01-15T20:05:16Z

McFly: /* We are moving very very soon. */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2013-01-15T05:38:32Z

McFly: /* Continuing spam */

MediaWiki:Tech

2013-01-15T05:23:56Z

McFly: /* Hosting */

MediaWiki:Common.css

2013-01-15T03:45:29Z

McFly:

/***** CSS placed here will be applied to all skins on the entire site. *****/
/* <s>See also: [[MediaWiki:Monobook.css]]</s> */
/* Or actually don't see it, because it's not useful. Only Common.css and your */
/* your own custom css files get loaded. */
/* <pre> */

@import "/mediawiki/index.php?title=User:Derik/Common_tmp.css&action=raw&ctype=text/css";

/* Mark redirects in Special:Allpages and Special:Watchlist */
.allpagesredirect { font-style: italic; }
.watchlistredir { font-style: italic; }

/* Giving headers and TOC a little extra space */
h2 {margin-top: 20px;}

.toc {margin-top: 20px;}

/* Infobox template style */
.infobox {
border: 1px solid #aaaaaa;
background-color: #f9f9f9;
color: black;
margin-bottom: 0.5em;
margin-left: 1em;
padding: 0.2em;
float: right;
clear: right;
}
.infobox td,
.infobox th {
vertical-align: top;
}
.infobox caption {
font-size: larger;
margin-left: inherit;
}
.infobox.bordered {
border-collapse: collapse;
}
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MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2013-01-15T01:43:55Z

McFly: /* We are moving very very soon. */

Template:Goicons

2013-01-14T18:37:20Z

McFly:

<?xml version="1.0" ?> <document>


<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/93/GB-DecepticonRaider.jpg</url> <name>A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur%27s Court</name> <alt>"A Decepticon Raider..."</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/58/GB-Abominus.jpg</url> <name>Abominus (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Abominus</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/bc/GB-Aerobot.jpg</url> <name>Aero-Bot</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c2/GB-TheAgenda3.jpg</url> <name>The Agenda (Part III)</name> <alt>"The Agenda" (Part III)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/00/GB-AirachidPrime.jpg</url> <name>Airachnid (Prime)</name> <alt>Prime Airachnid</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/55/GB-Airazor.jpg</url> <name>Airazor (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Airazor</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/65/GB-AirRaidMovie.jpg</url> <name>Air Raid (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Air Raid</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/53/GB-PatLeesig.jpg</url> <name>Alex Milne</name> <alt>"Pat Lee"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/df/GB-Alignment.jpg</url> <name>Alignment</name> <alt>"Alignment"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/79/GB-AllsparkAlmanacV1.jpg</url> <name>Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac</name> <alt>the AllSpark Almanac</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3c/GB-Along_Came_a_Spider.jpg</url> <name>Along Came a Spider</name> <alt>"Along Came a Spider"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/1b/GB-Amaou.jpg</url> <name>Hitoshizuku Amaou</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5e/GB-AndrewWildman.jpg</url> <name>Andrew Wildman</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/bd/GB-AnimationError.jpg</url> <name>Animation error</name> <alt>animation errors</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2e/GB-AngryArcher.jpg</url> <name>Angry Archer</name> <alt>the Angry Archer</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3b/GB-Archforce.jpg</url> <name>Archforce</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/35/GB-Antagony.jpg</url> <name>Antagony (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Antagony</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/8e/GB-SGAquarius.jpg</url> <name>Aquarius (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Aquarius</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5f/GB-apelinq.jpg</url> <name>Apelinq</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d4/GB-ArceeMovie.jpg</url> <name>Arcee (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Arcee</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2b/GB-ArkG1.jpg</url> <name>Ark (G1)</name> <alt>the Generation 1 Ark</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/8b/GB-Army-building.jpg</url> <name>Army-building</name> <alt>army-building</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b3/GB-AutobootCamp.jpg</url> <name>Autoboot Camp</name> <alt>"Autoboot Camp"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/63/GB-AutobotSpike.jpg</url> <name>Autobot Spike</name> <alt>"Autobot Spike"</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a7/GB-BOT.jpg</url> <name>B.O.T. (episode)</name> <alt>"B.O.T." (or don't. Please don't.)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c7/GB-BackstopCyb.jpg</url> <name>Backstop (Cybertron)</name> <alt>Cybertron Backstop</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/1f/GB-BallJoint.jpg</url> <name>Ball joint</name> <alt>ball joints</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/75/GB-BarricadeMovie.jpg</url> <name>Barricade (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Barricade</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/23/GB-BeachcomberG1.jpg</url> <name>Beachcomber (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Beachcomber</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/39/GB-Gorillabot.jpg</url> <name>Beast-Bot</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/98/GB-Beastformer.jpg</url> <name>Beastformer</name> <alt>the Beastformers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4e/GB-BeastWarsP2.jpg</url> <name>Beast Wars (Part 2)</name> <alt>"Beast Wars" (Part 2)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/fa/GB-BeforetheStorm.jpg</url> <name>Before the Storm</name> <alt>"Before the Storm"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e2/GB-Black_Sunshine.jpg</url> <name>Black Sunshine</name> <alt>"Black Sunshine"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d3/GB-BlackZarak.jpg</url> <name>Scorponok (G1)</name> <alt>BlackZarak</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d8/GB-BladesG1.jpg</url> <name>Blades (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Blades</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/ad/GB_BladesRB.jpg</url> <name>Blades (RB)</name> <alt>Rescue Bots Blades</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/23/GB-g1blaster.jpg</url> <name>Blaster (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Blaster</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/10/GB-Blaze.jpg</url> <name>Blaze</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/df/GB-BloodontheTracks.jpg</url> <name>Blood on the Tracks</name> <alt>"Blood on the Tracks"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/cd/GB-BludgeonG1.jpg</url> <name>Bludgeon (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Bludgeon</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/de/GB-Boltax.jpg</url> <name>Boltax (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Boltax</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/89/GB-Botanica.jpg</url> <name>Botanica (BM)</name> <alt>Beast Machines Botanica</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f1/GB-Flying_Island.jpg</url> <name>Brigadoon</name> <alt>the Vok's flying island</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4b/GB-BruticusMaximus.jpg</url> <name>Bruticus Maximus (Energon)</name> <alt>Energon Bruticus Maximus</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/7c/GB-Bulkhead.jpg</url> <name>Bulkhead (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Bulkhead</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/46/GB-BulkheadEnergon.jpg </url> <name>Bulkhead (Energon)</name> <alt>Energon Bulkhead</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/34/GB-BumblebeeAni.jpg</url> <name>Bumblebee (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Bumblebee</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a5/GB-Bumblebeeblast.jpg</url> <name>Bumblebee Blast</name> <alt>Bumblebee Blast Slurpee Flavor</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/fc/GB-BumblebeeRescue.jpg</url> <name>Bumblebee to the Rescue!</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2a/GB-Bumper.jpg</url> <name>Bumper (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Bumper</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d9/GB-Bumper2.jpg</url> <name>Mini Vehicle</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f8/GB-TheBurdenHardestToBear.jpg</url> <name>The Burden Hardest to Bear</name> <alt>"The Burden Hardest to Bear"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e9/GB-BuzzsawG1.jpg</url> <name>Buzzsaw (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Buzzsaw</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/fa/GB-MFCancer.jpg</url> <name>Cancer (Masterforce)</name> <alt>Super-God Masterforce Cancer</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/27/GB-CarnageInC-Minor.jpg</url> <name>Carnage in C-Minor</name> <alt>"Carnage in C-Minor"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6d/GB-CatSCAN.jpg</url> <name>CatSCAN</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/06/GB-Chameleon.jpg</url> <name>Chameleon</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f8/GB-ChaosG1.jpg</url> <name>Chaos (alien)</name> <alt>Chaos</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/64/GB-CheetorBW.jpg</url> <name>Cheetor (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Cheetor</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/de/GB-CircuitBreaker.jpg</url> <name>Circuit Breaker</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4a/GB-CliffjumperG1.jpg</url> <name>Cliffjumper (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Cliffjumper</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/11/GB-Cloudburst.jpg</url> <name>Cloudburst</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/73/GB-ClubCon.jpg</url> <name>Club Con</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/62/GB-Clutch.jpg</url> <name>Clutch (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Clutch</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/21/GB-CobraCommander.jpg</url> <name>Cobra Commander</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c2/GB-ComingoftheFuzors2.jpg</url> <name>Coming of the Fuzors (Part 2)</name> <alt>"Coming of the Fuzors" (Part 2)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/95/GB-CommandUnit.jpg</url> <name>Command Unit</name> <alt>Command Units</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e4/GB-Commercial.jpg</url> <name>Commercial</name> <alt>commercials</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c8/GB-commercialbumper.jpg</url> <name>Commercial bumper</name> <alt>commercial bumpers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/ac/GB-CosmosG1.jpg</url> <name>Cosmos (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Cosmos</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c8/GB-CoP.jpg</url> <name>Covenant of Primus</name> <alt>the Covenant of Primus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a0/GB-CrosscutDecep.jpg</url> <name>Crosscut (Decepticon)</name> <alt>Decepticon Crosscut</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/73/GB-Cryotek.jpg</url> <name>Cryotek (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Cryotek</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b8/GB-CyKillGobots.jpg</url> <name>Cy-Kill (GoBots)</name> <alt>GoBots Cy-Kill</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e5/GB-CybDefenseTeam.jpg</url> <name>Cybertron Defense Team</name> <alt>the Cybertron Defense Team</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/93/GB-Cybertronix.jpg</url> <name>Cybertronix</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5a/GB-CyclonusG1.jpg</url> <name>Cyclonus (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Cyclonus</alt> </item>


<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/25/GB-DGo.jpg</url> <name>D-Go</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2b/GB-dalek.jpg</url> <name>Dalek</name> <alt>Daleks</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f8/GB-Dancitron.jpg</url> <name>Dancitron</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/63/GB-DanReed.jpg</url> <name>Dan Reed</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/58/GB-DarkAwakening.jpg</url> <name>Dark Awakening</name> <alt>"Dark Awakening"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/8d/GB-DavidWise.jpg</url> <name>David Wise</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/ee/GB-Dead-Universe.jpg</url> <name>Dead Universe</name> <alt>the Dead Universe</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5a/GB-DeathsHeadG1.jpg</url> <name>Death%27s Head (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Death's Head</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/da/GB_deathsaurus.jpg</url> <name>Deathsaurus (Victory)</name> <alt>Victory Deathsaurus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5a/GB-Decepticharge.jpg
</url> <name>Decepticharge</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5f/GB-DecepticonAir.jpg</url> <name>Decepticon Air</name> <alt>"Decepticon Air"</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/0a/GB-DecepticonPatrol.jpg</url> <name>Decepticon Patrol</name> <alt>"Decepticon Patrol"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e0/GB-DecepSixbuilder.jpg</url> <name>Decepticon Sixbuilder</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/52/GB-Deceptor.jpg</url> <name>Deceptor</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2e/GB-DerrickWyatt.jpg</url> <name>Derrick J. Wyatt</name> <alt>Derrick Wyatt</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/be/GB-DinobotsStrikeBack.jpg</url> <name>Dinobots Strike Back</name> <alt>"Dinobots Strike Back"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/dc/GB-DirgeG1.jpg</url> <name>Dirge (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Dirge</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e0/GB-SGDirge.jpg</url> <name>Dirge (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Dirge</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d0/GB-DivebombMovie.jpg</url> <name>Divebomb (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Divebomb</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3c/GB-DiverBWII.jpg</url> <name>Diver (BWII)</name> <alt>Beast Wars II Diver</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/1b/GB-Finkleberg.jpg</url> <name>Donny Finkleberg</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/78/GB-DrArkeville.jpg</url> <name>Doctor Arkeville</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/68/GB-ArmadaIssue9.jpg</url> <name>Dreamwave Armada issue 9</name> <alt>Dreamwave's Armada #9</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3c/GB-Drift.jpg</url> <name>Drift (G1)</name> <alt>Drift</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/30/GB-DryRun.jpg</url> <name>Dry Run!</name> <alt>"Dry Run!"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/72/GB-DuelFightGBC.jpg</url> <name>Duel Fight Transformers Beast Wars: Beast Warriors%27 Strongest Decisive Battle</name> <alt>Duel Fight Transformers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f6/GB-Dull_Surprise.jpg</url> <name>Dull surprise</name> <alt>dull surprise</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b8/GB-DwayneJohnson.jpg</url> <name>Dwayne Johnson</name> <alt>The Rock</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c8/GB-CliffjumperG1a.jpg</url> <name>Earl Norem</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/95/GB-G1ElitaOne.jpg</url> <name>Elita One</name> <alt>Generation 1 Elita One</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/8e/GB-Energon.jpg</url> <name>Energon (fuel)</name> <alt>energon</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/af/GB-Energoncartoon.jpg</url> <name>Energon (cartoon)</name> <alt>the Energon cartoon</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/ff/GB-EntertheNightbird.jpg</url> <name>Enter the Nightbird</name> <alt>"Enter the Nightbird"</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a8/GB-Facial_hair.jpg</url> <name>Facial hair</name> <alt>Transformers facial hair</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f8/GB-Falcia.jpg</url> <name>Falcia</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a5/GB-ThefallenG1.jpg</url> <name>The Fallen</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a8/GB-Fang.jpg</url> <name>Fang</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5f/GB-fig.png</url> <name>Jorge Figueroa</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d4/GB-FightForEnergon.jpg</url> <name>Fight for Energon</name> <alt>"Fight for Energon"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a2/GB-FireintheSky.jpg</url> <name>Fire in the Sky</name> <alt>"Fire in the Sky"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/fa/GB-FireOnTheMountain.jpg</url> <name>Fire on the Mountain</name> <alt>"Fire on the Mountain"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/ee/GB-Fishtest.jpg</url> <name>The Fish Test</name> <alt>"The Fish Test"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/48/GB-FixerBug.jpg</url> <name>Fixer Bug</name> <alt>Fixer Bugs</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/8d/GB-FlameUKcomic.jpg</url> <name>Flame (Marvel)</name> <alt>Flame</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/91/GB-Flashbox.jpg</url> <name>Flashbox</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/96/GB-FlattopUK.jpg</url> <name>Flattop (Autobot)</name> <alt>Autobot Flattop</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6b/GB-FortressMaximusG1.jpg</url> <name>Fortress Maximus (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Fortress Maximus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c0/GB-Fred.jpg</url> <name>Fred (Armada)</name> <alt>Armada Fred</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6e/GB-Furmanism.jpg</url> <name>Furmanism</name> <alt>Furmanisms</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e5/GB-Garboil.jpg</url> <name>Garboil (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Garboil</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b4/GB-GasSkunk.jpg</url> <name>Gas Skunk</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/50/GB-Gas_station.jpg</url> <name>Gas station</name> <alt>the Micromaster gas station</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/38/GB-GB.jpg</url> <name>G.B. Blackrock</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/94/GB-Generation2.jpg</url> <name>Generation 2 (franchise)</name> <alt>Transformers: Generation 2</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/65/GB-Generations.jpg</url> <name>Transformers Generations</name> <alt>the Transformers Generations book</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/7e/GB-Generics.jpg</url> <name>Generic</name> <alt>"generic" Transformer designs</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/31/GB-Gingham.jpg</url> <name>Gingham</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/1f/GB-GirlWhoLovedPowerglide.jpg</url> <name>The Girl Who Loved Powerglide</name> <alt>"The Girl Who Loved Powerglide"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/23/GB-Gnaw.jpg</url> <name>Gnaw</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/39/GB-G1GoBots.jpg</url> <name>G1 GoBots</name> <alt>the G1 GoBots</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/fc/GB-Golden_disk.jpg </url> <name>Golden Disk (disambiguation)</name> <alt>the Golden Disks</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/11/GB-GoldenLagoon.jpg</url> <name>The Golden Lagoon</name> <alt>"The Golden Lagoon"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/18/GB-goo.jpg </url> <name>Goo 8739B</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/32/GB-GrimlocksNewBrain.jpg</url> <name>Grimlock%27s New Brain</name> <alt>"Grimlock's New Brain"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d9/GB-RIDGrimlock.jpg</url> <name>Grimlock (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Grimlock</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/39/GB-GrappleG1.jpg</url> <name>Grapple</name> <alt>Grapple</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/42/GB-Grizzly1.jpg</url> <name>Grizzly-1</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/23/GB-Hacksaw.jpg</url> <name>Hacksaw</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/ff/GB-Halloween.JPG</url> <name>Halloween</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/47/GB-HanSolo.jpg</url> <name>Han Solo</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/33/GB-HatePlague.jpg</url> <name>Hate Plague</name> <alt>the Hate Plague</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f5/GB-Headmasters_(comic).jpg</url> <name>Headmasters (comic)</name> <alt>the Headmasters comic</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/49/GB-Heatwave.jpg</url> <name>Heatwave (Timelines)</name> <alt>Timelines Heatwave</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6e/GB-HHR.jpg</url> <name>HHR</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4b/GB-HighWire.jpg</url> <name>High Wire (Armada)</name> <alt>Armada High Wire</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b6/GB-Holomatter.jpg</url> <name>Holomatter</name> <alt>holomatter</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6e/GB_Ani_Hot_Shot.jpg</url> <name>Hot Shot (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Hot Shot</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/06/GB-SGHound.jpg</url> <name>Hound (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Hound</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/37/GB-Hunter-O%27Nion.jpg</url> <name>Hunter O%27Nion</name> <alt>Hunter O'Nion</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/37/GB-ImprosonedInferno.jpg</url> <name>Imprisoned Inferno</name> <alt>"Improsoned Inferno" (sic)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/9e/GB-Impactor.jpg</url> <name>Impactor (G1)</name> <alt>Impactor</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/99/GB-Infiltration-Protocol.jpg</url> <name>Infiltration protocol</name> <alt>the infiltration protocol</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/77/GB-Io.jpg</url> <name>Io</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4d/GB-Ironfist.jpg</url> <name>Ironfist (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Ironfist</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/8a/GB-IrwinSpoon.jpg</url> <name>Irwin Spoon (G1)</name> <alt>Irwin Spoon</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/35/GB-Jaam.jpg</url> <name>JaAm</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6b/GB-Japanese_themes.jpg </url> <name>Japanese themes</name> <alt>Japanese theme songs</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/ba/GB-JazzG1.jpg</url> <name>Jazz (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Jazz</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f1/GB-JazzMovie.jpg</url> <name>Jazz (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Jazz</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/98/GB-Jetfire%28ROTF%29.jpg</url> <name>Jetfire (ROTF)</name> <alt>Revenge of the Fallen Jetfire</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/58/GB-Jhiaxus.jpg</url> <name>Jhiaxus (G2)</name> <alt>Jhiaxus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/1d/GB-JohnHenry.jpg</url> <name>John Henry</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/9f/GB-Jungaroo.jpg</url> <name>Jungaroo</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6c/GB-kakuryu.jpg</url> <name>Kakuryū</name> <alt>Kakuryū</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c6/GB-KellyRID.jpg</url> <name>Kelly (RID)</name> <alt>Kelly</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/9e/GB-Key_to_Vector_Sigma.jpg</url> <name>Key to Vector Sigma</name> <alt>the Key to Vector Sigma</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2c/GB-KickbackG1.jpg</url> <name>Hearts of Steel</name> <alt>Hearts of Steel</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6e/GB-KickerJones.jpg</url> <name>Kicker Jones</name> <alt>Kicker</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c9/GB-King.jpg</url> <name>King</name> <alt>the King</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/ef/GB-Kremzeek.jpg</url> <name>Kremzeek</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/63/GB-Lady_Jaye.jpg</url> <name>Lady Jaye</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/8b/GB-Ladybird.jpg</url> <name>Ladybird Books</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6c/GB-TimelinesLandquake.jpg</url> <name>Landquake (Timelines)</name> <alt>Timelines Landquake</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c3/GB-G1Laserbeak.jpg</url> <name>Laserbeak (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Laserbeak</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/7a/GB-Leader1Armada.jpg</url> <name>Leader-1 (Armada)</name> <alt>Armada Leader-1</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b4/GB-LegacyofUnicron.jpg</url> <name>The Legacy of Unicron!</name> <alt>"The Legacy of Unicron!"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a8/GB-Lennox.jpg</url> <name>William Lennox</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a6/GB-ukletters.jpg</url> <name>Letters page (Marvel UK)</name> <alt>the Marvel UK letters page</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/02/GB-Lipole.jpg</url> <name>Lipole</name> <name>lipoles</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/0d/GB-Lori.jpg</url> <name>Lori</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/73/GB-LouHoover.jpg</url> <name>Lou Hoover</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/12/GB-M9-2HarpoonGun.jpg</url> <name>M9-2 Harpoon Gun</name> <alt>the M9-2 Harpoon Gun</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b3/GB-Machination.jpg</url> <name>Machination</name> <alt>the Machination</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c8/GB-Magnawing.jpg</url> <name>Magnawing</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/35/GB-Magnificence.jpg</url> <name>Magnificence</name> <alt>the Magnificence</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/77/GB-Malignus.jpg</url> <name>Malignus (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Malignus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/0a/GB-MarissaFairborne.jpg</url> <name>Marissa Faireborn</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f5/GB-MartyIsenberg.jpg</url> <name>Marty Isenberg</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a6/GB-MatrixCannon.jpg</url> <name>Matrix Cannon</name> <alt>the Matrix Cannon</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/eb/GB-Max.jpg</url> <name>Max</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a8/GB-Mecannibals.jpg</url> <name>Mecannibal</name> <alt>the Mecannibals</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/15/GB-Megabolt.jpg</url> <name>Megabolt</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a8/GB-armadamegs.jpg</url> <name>Megatron (Armada)</name> <alt>''Armada'' Megatron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5c/GB-MegatronAnimated.jpg</url> <name>Megatron (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Megatron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e4/GB-MegatronBW.jpg</url> <name>Megatron (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Megatron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d1/GB-GigatronCR.jpg</url> <name>Megatron (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Megatron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/fd/GB-MeltdownAni.jpg</url> <name>Meltdown (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Meltdown</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/79/GB-Metallikato.jpg</url> <name>Metallikato</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/fd/GB_Mickey_Mouse.jpg</url> <name>Mickey Mouse</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/59/GB-Mindset.jpg</url> <name>Mindset (G2)</name> <alt>Generation 2 Mindset</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/84/GB-Minerva.jpg</url> <name>Minerva (Masterforce)</name> <alt>Masterforce Minerva</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/71/GB-Mirror.jpg</url> <name>Mirror</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/ca/GB-MixmasterAni.jpg</url> <name>Mixmaster (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Mixmaster</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/83/GB-Monstructor.jpg</url> <name>Monstructor (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Monstructor</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5a/GB-Multilingual.jpg</url> <name>multilingual packaging</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/74/GB-Nebulos.jpg</url> <name>Nebulos</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/7e/GB-NekomimiAandB.jpg</url> <name>Nekomimi A and Nekomimi B</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/8a/GB-NemesisPrimeIDW.jpg</url> <name>Nova Prime</name> <alt>Nova/Nemesis Prime</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/ff/GB-Neon.jpg</url> <name>Neon</name> <alt>neon! Ow</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c2/GB-NightbeatG1.jpg</url> <name>Nightbeat (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Nightbeat</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/42/GB-NightbeatArmada.jpg</url> <name>Nightbeat (Armada)</name> <alt>Armada Nightbeat</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/bd/GB-NightscreamClassics.jpg</url> <name>Nightscream (Classics)</name> <alt>Classics Nightscream</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a4/GB-O.jpg</url> <name>"O"</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/34/GB-Oparts.jpg</url> <name>O-Part</name> <alt>the O-Parts</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/1d/GB-OctopunchG1.jpg</url> <name>Octopunch (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Octopunch</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/92/GB-OmegaSupreme.JPG</url> <name>Omega Supreme (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Omega Supreme</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d4/GB-ontheedgeofextinction.jpg</url> <name>On the Edge of Extinction!</name> <alt>"On the Edge of Extinction!"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2e/GB-KojiOnishi.jpg</url> <name>Koji Onishi</name> <alt>Koji Onishi</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/19/GB-OptimusMinor.jpg</url> <name>Optimus Minor</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/99/GB-G1prime.jpg</url> <name>Optimus Prime (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Optimus Prime</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/86/GB-RiDPrime.jpg</url> <name>Optimus Prime (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Optimus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/94/GB-Orbital-Jump.jpg</url> <name>Orbital jump</name> <alt>orbital jumps</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4d/GB-MegatronBW1.jpg</url> <name>Other Victories</name> <alt>"Other Victories"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/36/GB-OtherVoices1.jpg</url> <name>Other Voices, Part 1</name> <alt>"Other Voices" Part 1</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/af/GB-Outback.jpg</url> <name>Outback (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Outback</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/97/GB-Overlord.jpg</url> <name>Overlord (Masterforce)</name> <alt>Masterforce Overlord</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/38/GB-PepsiConvoy.jpg</url> <name>Pepsi Convoy</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/38/GB-photodegradation.jpg</url> <name>Photodegradation</name> <alt>photodegradation</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/01/GB-PickUpBatRobo.jpg</url> <name>Pick-Up (Bat-Rob%F4)</name> <alt>Bat-Robo Pick-Up</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/cc/GB-Plastic.jpg</url> <name>Plastic</name> <alt>plastic</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/da/GB-playpattern.jpg</url> <name>Play pattern</name> <alt>play pattern</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/cf/GB-PoisonBite.jpg</url> <name>Poison Bite</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/cc/GB-Power_Plans.jpg</url> <name>Power Plans</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/9e/GB-Pretender.jpg</url> <name>Pretender</name> <alt>the Pretenders</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c2/GB-Primus.jpg</url> <name>Primus</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/60/GB-ProfessorPrincess.jpg</url> <name>Professor Princess</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4f/GB_Protector.jpg</url> <name>Protector</name> <alt>the Protectors</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/15/GB-prototype.jpg</url> <name>Prototype</name> <alt>prototypes</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/28/GoBox_TFA_Prowl.jpg</url> <name>Prowl (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Prowl</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3a/GB-RIDProwl.jpg</url> <name>Prowl (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Prowl</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/90/GB-PsychoOrb.jpg</url> <name>Psycho-Orb</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/79/GB-rani.png</url> <name>Natasha Pyraniac</name> <alt>Natasha Pyraniac</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/ec/GB-GagColosseum.jpg</url> <name>Q-Robo Transformer</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e8/GB_Questor.jpg </url> <name>Questor</name> <alt>the Questors</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/37/GB-Quintesson.jpg </url> <name>Quintesson</name> <alt>the Quintessons</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/64/GB-RackNRuin.jpg</url> <name>Rack%27n%27Ruin</name> <alt>Rack'n'Ruin</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a7/GB-Raindance.jpg</url> <name>Raindance</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e3/GB-RampageBW.jpg</url> <name>Rampage (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Rampage</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/ab/GB-RamulusBW.jpg</url> <name>Ramulus</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3f/GB-Rangefinder.jpg</url> <name>Rangefinder</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/69/GB-RansackG2.jpg</url> <name>Ransack (G2)</name> <alt>Generation 2 Ransack</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/7d/GB-Raoul.jpg</url> <name>Raoul</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b5/GB-RatbatG1.jpg</url> <name>Ratbat (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Ratbat</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d5/GB-AniRatchet.jpg</url> <name>Ratchet (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Ratchet</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/87/GB-RatchetG1.jpg</url> <name>Ratchet (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Ratchet</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/16/Primeratchetgoicon.jpg</url> <name>Ratchet (Prime)</name> <alt>Prime Ratchet</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/0c/GB-Rattrap.jpg</url> <name>Rattrap</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/96/GB-SGRavage.jpg</url> <name>Ravage (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Ravage</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/02/GB-Razorbeast.jpg</url> <name>Razorbeast</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a4/GB-RazorclawTFU.jpg</url> <name>Razorclaw (Universe)</name> <alt>Universe Razorclaw</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3f/GB-RecipeforDisaster.jpg</url> <name>Recipe for Disaster!</name> <alt>"Recipe for Disaster!"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/30/GB-RedHot.jpg</url> <name>Red Hot</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/09/GB-ReggieSimmons.jpg</url> <name>Seymour Simmons</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/94/GB-RenoWilson.jpg</url> <name>Reno Wilson</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b8/GB-Reproduction.jpg</url> <name>Reproduction</name> <alt>Transformers reproduction</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/0e/GB-Return_of_the_Headmaster.jpg</url> <name>The Return of the Headmaster</name> <alt>"The Return of the Headmaster"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/16/GB-RickAstley.jpg</url> <name>Rick Astley</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/84/GB-Stepper.jpg</url> <name>Ricochet (Headmasters)</name> <alt>Targetmaster Ricochet</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3b/GB-RoadblockGIJoe.jpg</url> <name>Roadblock (G.I. Joe)</name> <alt>G.I. Joe's Roadblock</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b3/GB-RodimusShattered.jpg</url> <name>Rodimus (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Rodimus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3a/GB-G1RodimusPrime.jpg</url> <name>Hot Rod (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Rodimus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/97/GB-Ron.jpg</url> <name>Ron</name> <alt>Ron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3a/GB-SGRook.jpg</url> <name>Rook (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Rook</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/85/GB-Rorza.jpg</url> <name>Rorza, the Rocket-cycle Racer from Rigel III</name> <alt>Rorza the Rocket-cycle Racer</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/df/GB-Rosanna.jpg</url> <name>Rosanna (KP)</name> <alt>Kiss Players Rosanna</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/3d/GB-RotateBlade.jpg</url> <name>Cyber-slash tail weapon</name> <alt>the rotate blade</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/8d/GB-Roulette.jpg</url> <name>Roulette (Universe)</name> <alt>Universe Roulette</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/ff/GB-RubberduckyBW.jpg</url> <name>Rubber Ducky</name> <alt>the Rubber Ducky</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b6/GB-Ruination.jpg</url> <name>Ruination_(RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Ruination</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e8/GB-Rung.jpg</url> <name>Rung</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/ec/GB-SaltManZ.jpg</url> <name>Salt-Man Z</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c3/GB-Sari.jpg</url> <name>Sari Sumdac</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/65/GB-Scale.jpg</url> <name>Scale</name> <alt>scale (or lack of)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2b/GB-ScavengerBM.jpg</url> <name>Scavenger (BM)</name> <alt>Beast Machines Scavenger</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c2/GB-ScowlG1.jpg</url> <name>Scowl</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d5/GB-Scraplet.jpg</url> <name>Scraplet</name> <alt>scraplets</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/7b/GB-Scrounge.jpg</url> <name>Scrounge (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Scrounge</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/22/GB-Scylla.jpg</url> <name>Scylla</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2c/GB-SearchlightG1.jpg</url> <name>Searchlight (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Searchlight</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/52/GB-SectorSeven.jpg</url> <name>Sector Seven</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/25/GB-SeekerGroup.jpg</url> <name>Seeker (body-type)</name> <alt>the Seekers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a5/GBAniSentinelPrime.jpg</url> <name>Sentinel Prime (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Sentinel Prime</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b3/GB-Servo.jpg</url> <name>Servo</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/52/GB-shatteredglass.jpg</url> <name>Shattered Glass (franchise)</name> <alt>the Shattered Glass universe</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/15/GB-Shatterpoint.jpg</url> <name>Shatterpoint</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/fa/GB-Shellformer.jpg</url> <name>Shellformer</name> <alt>shellformers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/7d/GB-shelfwarmer.jpg</url> <name>Shelfwarmer</name> <alt>shelfwarmers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2f/GB-ShockblastEnergon.jpg </url> <name>Shockblast</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e5/GB-Shockwave.jpg</url> <name>Shockwave (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Shockwave</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/35/GB-Sideways(RiD).jpg</url> <name>Sideways (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise/Armada/Cybertron Sideways</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e4/GB-SignalFlareEn.jpg</url> <name>Signal Flare (Energon)</name> <alt>Energon Signal Flare</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/99/GB-SilverboltBW.jpg</url> <name>Silverbolt (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Silverbolt</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b5/GB-SimonBelmondo.jpg</url> <name>Simon Belmondo</name> <alt>Simon Belmont</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/af/GB-furman.jpg</url> <name>Simon Furman</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/cd/GB-SkidZRID.jpg</url> <name>Skid-Z (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Skid-Z</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/90/GB-SkidsG1.jpg</url> <name>Skids (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Skids</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e0/GB-SkidsROTF.jpg</url> <name>Skids (ROTF)</name> <alt>Revenge of the Fallen Skids</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b8/GB-SkybyteRID.jpg</url> <name>Sky-Byte (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Sky-Byte</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/bf/GB-SkyLynxG1.jpg</url> <name>Sky Lynx (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Sky Lynx</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/42/GB-CybertronSkyfall.jpg</url> <name>Skyfall (Cybertron)</name> <alt>Cybertron Skyfall</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/60/GB-SkywarpBW2.jpg</url> <name>Skywarp (BWII)</name> <alt>Beast Wars II Skywarp</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/ab/GB-SmokescreenG2.jpg</url> <name>Smokescreen (G2)</name> <alt>Generation 2 Smokescreen</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/1b/GB-SoundwavePrime.jpg</url> <name>Soundwave (Prime)</name> <alt>Prime Soundwave</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/0d/GB-Space_Bridge.jpg</url> <name>Space bridge</name> <alt>space bridges</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/90/GB-SpaceMini-ConTeam.jpg</url> <name>Space Mini-Con Team</name> <alt>the Space Mini-Con Team</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e8/GB-Spaceshot.jpg</url> <name>Spaceshot</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/52/GB-Coldsparks.jpg</url> <name>Sparking gimmick</name> <alt>sparking gimmicks</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f1/GB-Springer.jpg</url> <name>Springer (G1)</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/79/GB-AnimatedStarscream.jpg</url> <name>Starscream (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Starscream</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/ad/GB-StarscreamMovie.jpg</url> <name>Starscream (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Starscream</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/01/GB-StarUpper.jpg</url> <name>Star Upper (BWII)</name> <alt>Star Upper</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/1b/GB-StellaHolley.jpg</url> <name>Stella Holley</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/1a/GB-StickerAdventures.jpg</url> <name>Sticker Adventures</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/bd/GB-Stratotronic_Jet.jpg</url> <name>Stratotronic Jet</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4b/GB-Sunstreaker.jpg</url> <name>Sunstreaker (G1)</name> <alt>Sunstreaker</alt></item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/ab/GB-TAI.jpg</url> <name>T-AI</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/15/GB-Tailgate.png</url> <name>Tailgate (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Tailgate</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5e/GB-TankorROTF.jpg</url> <name>Tankor (ROTF)</name> <alt>Revenge of the Fallen Tankor</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/8/83/GB-TapoutG1.jpg</url> <name>Tap-Out (G1)</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e3/GB-Tarantulas.jpg</url> <name>Tarantulas (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Tarantulas</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f0/GB-TaraStrong.jpg</url> <name>Tara Strong</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e7/GB-Target2006.jpg</url> <name>Target: 2006</name> <alt>"Target: 2006"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/22/GB-TechSpec.jpg</url> <name>Tech Spec</name> <alt>Tech Specs</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/0/08/GB-Teletraan_15.gif</url> <name>Teletraan 15</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b0/GB-TRED.jpg</url> <name>The Real Effing Deal</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/5d/GB-thingsthatdontexist.jpg</url> <name>Category:Things_that_don%27t_exist</name> <alt>things that don't exist</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/21/GB-ThrottlerPCC.jpg</url> <name>Throttler</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/9d/GB-ThunderblastDecep.jpg</url> <name>Thunderblast (Decepticon)</name> <alt>Decepticon Thunderblast</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/18/GB-G1Thunderwing.jpg</url> <name>Thunderwing (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Thunderwing</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/ab/GB-TigatronBW.jpg</url> <name>Tigatron</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/21/GB-TommyKennedy.jpg</url> <name>Tommy Kennedy</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/df/GB-TorquerifleG1.jpg</url> <name>Torque rifle</name> <alt>the torque rifle</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/21/GB-RIDTow-Line.jpg</url> <name>Tow-Line (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Tow-Line</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/ed/GB-toy.jpg</url> <name>Toy</name> <alt>toys</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/71/GB-ToySwapping.JPG</url> <name>Toy swapping</name> <alt>toy swapping</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4f/GB-TransformersUniverseActionBlast1Part1.jpg</url> <name>Action Blast 1</name> <alt>"Action Blast 1"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/32/GB-AGoBoxOfYourOwn.jpg</url> <name>Transformers_Wiki:A_GoBox_of_your_own!</name> <alt>a GoBox of your own</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e1/GB-Bulkhead_hat.jpg</url> <name>Transformer clothing</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a4/GB-PDTF.jpg</url> <name>Transformers PD Type</name> <alt>"Transformers PD Type"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/33/GB-TranswarpCruiser.jpg</url> <name>Transwarp cruiser</name> <alt>the Transwarp Cruiser</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/fd/GB-TurboBatRobo.jpg</url> <name>Turbo</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d7/GB-Ultra-Energon.jpg</url> <name>Ultra-Energon</name> <alt>Ore-13</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/3/38/GB-UltraMagnusEn.jpg</url> <name>Ultra Magnus (Energon)</name> <alt>Energon Ultra Magnus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/eb/GB-Unicron.jpg</url> <name>Unicron#G.I._Joe_vs._the_Transformers</name> <alt>Unicron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/de/GB-unicronsingularity.jpg</url> <name>Unicron Singularity</name> <alt>the Unicron Singularity</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a3/GB-UnreleasedToys.jpg</url> <name>Unreleased toy</name> <alt>unreleased toys</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/df/GB-VVH.jpg</url> <name>Variable voltage harness</name> <alt>the variable voltage harness</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/b6/GB-Vehicon.jpg</url> <name>Vehicon (BM)</name> <alt>the Beast Machines Vehicons</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f6/GB-Velocitron.jpg</url> <name> Velocitron</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/a/a6/GB-Verity-Carlo.jpg</url> <name>Verity Carlo</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/2/2c/GB-Void.jpg</url> <name>Void</name> <alt>the void</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e6/GB-AniWasp.jpg</url> <name>Wasp</name> <alt>Wasp</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/b/bc/GB-Waspinator.jpg</url> <name>Waspinator (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Waspinator</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/43/GB-Web_World.jpg</url> <name>Webworld</name> <alt>"Webworld"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/48/GB-WeirdAl.jpg</url> <name>"Weird Al" Yankovic</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/4/4b/GB-Wheelie.jpg</url> <name>Wheelie (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Wheelie</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/c/c3/GB-WhirlG1.jpg</url> <name>Whirl (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Whirl</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/e/e7/GB-Windcharger.jpg</url> <name>Windcharger (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Windcharger</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/7/74/GB-Wiretap.jpg</url> <name>Wire Tap V20</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/d/d6/GB-WolfangPred.jpg</url> <name>Wolfang (Predacon)</name> <alt>Predacon Wolfang</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/1/16/GB-WreckGarAni.jpg</url> <name>Wreck-Gar (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Wreck-Gar</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/68/GB-WreckGarG1.jpg</url> <name>Wreck-Gar (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Wreck-Gar</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/f/f1/GB-Wreckers.jpg</url> <name>Wrecker</name> <alt>the Wreckers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/5/55/GB-WrecklooseROTF.jpg</url> <name>Wreckloose (ROTF)</name> <alt>Revenge of the Fallen Wreckloose</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/6/6a/GB-XGunner.jpg</url> <name>X-Gunner</name> </item>

</document>

Template:Goicons

2013-01-14T18:35:45Z

McFly:

<?xml version="1.0" ?> <document>


<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/images2/9/93/GB-DecepticonRaider.jpg</url> <name>A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur%27s Court</name> <alt>"A Decepticon Raider..."</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/58/GB-Abominus.jpg</url> <name>Abominus (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Abominus</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/bc/GB-Aerobot.jpg</url> <name>Aero-Bot</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c2/GB-TheAgenda3.jpg</url> <name>The Agenda (Part III)</name> <alt>"The Agenda" (Part III)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/00/GB-AirachidPrime.jpg</url> <name>Airachnid (Prime)</name> <alt>Prime Airachnid</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/55/GB-Airazor.jpg</url> <name>Airazor (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Airazor</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/65/GB-AirRaidMovie.jpg</url> <name>Air Raid (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Air Raid</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/53/GB-PatLeesig.jpg</url> <name>Alex Milne</name> <alt>"Pat Lee"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/df/GB-Alignment.jpg</url> <name>Alignment</name> <alt>"Alignment"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/79/GB-AllsparkAlmanacV1.jpg</url> <name>Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac</name> <alt>the AllSpark Almanac</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3c/GB-Along_Came_a_Spider.jpg</url> <name>Along Came a Spider</name> <alt>"Along Came a Spider"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1b/GB-Amaou.jpg</url> <name>Hitoshizuku Amaou</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5e/GB-AndrewWildman.jpg</url> <name>Andrew Wildman</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/bd/GB-AnimationError.jpg</url> <name>Animation error</name> <alt>animation errors</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2e/GB-AngryArcher.jpg</url> <name>Angry Archer</name> <alt>the Angry Archer</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3b/GB-Archforce.jpg</url> <name>Archforce</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/35/GB-Antagony.jpg</url> <name>Antagony (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Antagony</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8e/GB-SGAquarius.jpg</url> <name>Aquarius (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Aquarius</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5f/GB-apelinq.jpg</url> <name>Apelinq</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d4/GB-ArceeMovie.jpg</url> <name>Arcee (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Arcee</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2b/GB-ArkG1.jpg</url> <name>Ark (G1)</name> <alt>the Generation 1 Ark</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8b/GB-Army-building.jpg</url> <name>Army-building</name> <alt>army-building</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b3/GB-AutobootCamp.jpg</url> <name>Autoboot Camp</name> <alt>"Autoboot Camp"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/63/GB-AutobotSpike.jpg</url> <name>Autobot Spike</name> <alt>"Autobot Spike"</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a7/GB-BOT.jpg</url> <name>B.O.T. (episode)</name> <alt>"B.O.T." (or don't. Please don't.)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c7/GB-BackstopCyb.jpg</url> <name>Backstop (Cybertron)</name> <alt>Cybertron Backstop</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1f/GB-BallJoint.jpg</url> <name>Ball joint</name> <alt>ball joints</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/75/GB-BarricadeMovie.jpg</url> <name>Barricade (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Barricade</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/23/GB-BeachcomberG1.jpg</url> <name>Beachcomber (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Beachcomber</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/39/GB-Gorillabot.jpg</url> <name>Beast-Bot</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/98/GB-Beastformer.jpg</url> <name>Beastformer</name> <alt>the Beastformers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4e/GB-BeastWarsP2.jpg</url> <name>Beast Wars (Part 2)</name> <alt>"Beast Wars" (Part 2)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fa/GB-BeforetheStorm.jpg</url> <name>Before the Storm</name> <alt>"Before the Storm"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e2/GB-Black_Sunshine.jpg</url> <name>Black Sunshine</name> <alt>"Black Sunshine"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d3/GB-BlackZarak.jpg</url> <name>Scorponok (G1)</name> <alt>BlackZarak</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d8/GB-BladesG1.jpg</url> <name>Blades (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Blades</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/ad/GB_BladesRB.jpg</url> <name>Blades (RB)</name> <alt>Rescue Bots Blades</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/23/GB-g1blaster.jpg</url> <name>Blaster (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Blaster</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/10/GB-Blaze.jpg</url> <name>Blaze</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/df/GB-BloodontheTracks.jpg</url> <name>Blood on the Tracks</name> <alt>"Blood on the Tracks"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/cd/GB-BludgeonG1.jpg</url> <name>Bludgeon (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Bludgeon</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/de/GB-Boltax.jpg</url> <name>Boltax (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Boltax</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/89/GB-Botanica.jpg</url> <name>Botanica (BM)</name> <alt>Beast Machines Botanica</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f1/GB-Flying_Island.jpg</url> <name>Brigadoon</name> <alt>the Vok's flying island</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4b/GB-BruticusMaximus.jpg</url> <name>Bruticus Maximus (Energon)</name> <alt>Energon Bruticus Maximus</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/7c/GB-Bulkhead.jpg</url> <name>Bulkhead (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Bulkhead</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/46/GB-BulkheadEnergon.jpg </url> <name>Bulkhead (Energon)</name> <alt>Energon Bulkhead</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/34/GB-BumblebeeAni.jpg</url> <name>Bumblebee (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Bumblebee</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a5/GB-Bumblebeeblast.jpg</url> <name>Bumblebee Blast</name> <alt>Bumblebee Blast Slurpee Flavor</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fc/GB-BumblebeeRescue.jpg</url> <name>Bumblebee to the Rescue!</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2a/GB-Bumper.jpg</url> <name>Bumper (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Bumper</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d9/GB-Bumper2.jpg</url> <name>Mini Vehicle</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f8/GB-TheBurdenHardestToBear.jpg</url> <name>The Burden Hardest to Bear</name> <alt>"The Burden Hardest to Bear"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e9/GB-BuzzsawG1.jpg</url> <name>Buzzsaw (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Buzzsaw</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fa/GB-MFCancer.jpg</url> <name>Cancer (Masterforce)</name> <alt>Super-God Masterforce Cancer</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/27/GB-CarnageInC-Minor.jpg</url> <name>Carnage in C-Minor</name> <alt>"Carnage in C-Minor"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6d/GB-CatSCAN.jpg</url> <name>CatSCAN</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/06/GB-Chameleon.jpg</url> <name>Chameleon</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f8/GB-ChaosG1.jpg</url> <name>Chaos (alien)</name> <alt>Chaos</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/64/GB-CheetorBW.jpg</url> <name>Cheetor (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Cheetor</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/de/GB-CircuitBreaker.jpg</url> <name>Circuit Breaker</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4a/GB-CliffjumperG1.jpg</url> <name>Cliffjumper (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Cliffjumper</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/11/GB-Cloudburst.jpg</url> <name>Cloudburst</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/73/GB-ClubCon.jpg</url> <name>Club Con</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/62/GB-Clutch.jpg</url> <name>Clutch (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Clutch</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/21/GB-CobraCommander.jpg</url> <name>Cobra Commander</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c2/GB-ComingoftheFuzors2.jpg</url> <name>Coming of the Fuzors (Part 2)</name> <alt>"Coming of the Fuzors" (Part 2)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/95/GB-CommandUnit.jpg</url> <name>Command Unit</name> <alt>Command Units</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e4/GB-Commercial.jpg</url> <name>Commercial</name> <alt>commercials</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c8/GB-commercialbumper.jpg</url> <name>Commercial bumper</name> <alt>commercial bumpers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/ac/GB-CosmosG1.jpg</url> <name>Cosmos (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Cosmos</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c8/GB-CoP.jpg</url> <name>Covenant of Primus</name> <alt>the Covenant of Primus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a0/GB-CrosscutDecep.jpg</url> <name>Crosscut (Decepticon)</name> <alt>Decepticon Crosscut</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/73/GB-Cryotek.jpg</url> <name>Cryotek (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Cryotek</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b8/GB-CyKillGobots.jpg</url> <name>Cy-Kill (GoBots)</name> <alt>GoBots Cy-Kill</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e5/GB-CybDefenseTeam.jpg</url> <name>Cybertron Defense Team</name> <alt>the Cybertron Defense Team</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/93/GB-Cybertronix.jpg</url> <name>Cybertronix</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5a/GB-CyclonusG1.jpg</url> <name>Cyclonus (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Cyclonus</alt> </item>


<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/25/GB-DGo.jpg</url> <name>D-Go</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2b/GB-dalek.jpg</url> <name>Dalek</name> <alt>Daleks</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f8/GB-Dancitron.jpg</url> <name>Dancitron</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/63/GB-DanReed.jpg</url> <name>Dan Reed</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/58/GB-DarkAwakening.jpg</url> <name>Dark Awakening</name> <alt>"Dark Awakening"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8d/GB-DavidWise.jpg</url> <name>David Wise</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/ee/GB-Dead-Universe.jpg</url> <name>Dead Universe</name> <alt>the Dead Universe</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5a/GB-DeathsHeadG1.jpg</url> <name>Death%27s Head (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Death's Head</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/da/GB_deathsaurus.jpg</url> <name>Deathsaurus (Victory)</name> <alt>Victory Deathsaurus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5a/GB-Decepticharge.jpg
</url> <name>Decepticharge</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5f/GB-DecepticonAir.jpg</url> <name>Decepticon Air</name> <alt>"Decepticon Air"</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/0a/GB-DecepticonPatrol.jpg</url> <name>Decepticon Patrol</name> <alt>"Decepticon Patrol"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e0/GB-DecepSixbuilder.jpg</url> <name>Decepticon Sixbuilder</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/52/GB-Deceptor.jpg</url> <name>Deceptor</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2e/GB-DerrickWyatt.jpg</url> <name>Derrick J. Wyatt</name> <alt>Derrick Wyatt</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/be/GB-DinobotsStrikeBack.jpg</url> <name>Dinobots Strike Back</name> <alt>"Dinobots Strike Back"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/dc/GB-DirgeG1.jpg</url> <name>Dirge (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Dirge</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e0/GB-SGDirge.jpg</url> <name>Dirge (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Dirge</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d0/GB-DivebombMovie.jpg</url> <name>Divebomb (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Divebomb</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3c/GB-DiverBWII.jpg</url> <name>Diver (BWII)</name> <alt>Beast Wars II Diver</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1b/GB-Finkleberg.jpg</url> <name>Donny Finkleberg</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/78/GB-DrArkeville.jpg</url> <name>Doctor Arkeville</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/68/GB-ArmadaIssue9.jpg</url> <name>Dreamwave Armada issue 9</name> <alt>Dreamwave's Armada #9</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3c/GB-Drift.jpg</url> <name>Drift (G1)</name> <alt>Drift</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/30/GB-DryRun.jpg</url> <name>Dry Run!</name> <alt>"Dry Run!"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/72/GB-DuelFightGBC.jpg</url> <name>Duel Fight Transformers Beast Wars: Beast Warriors%27 Strongest Decisive Battle</name> <alt>Duel Fight Transformers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f6/GB-Dull_Surprise.jpg</url> <name>Dull surprise</name> <alt>dull surprise</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b8/GB-DwayneJohnson.jpg</url> <name>Dwayne Johnson</name> <alt>The Rock</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c8/GB-CliffjumperG1a.jpg</url> <name>Earl Norem</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/95/GB-G1ElitaOne.jpg</url> <name>Elita One</name> <alt>Generation 1 Elita One</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8e/GB-Energon.jpg</url> <name>Energon (fuel)</name> <alt>energon</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/af/GB-Energoncartoon.jpg</url> <name>Energon (cartoon)</name> <alt>the Energon cartoon</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/ff/GB-EntertheNightbird.jpg</url> <name>Enter the Nightbird</name> <alt>"Enter the Nightbird"</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a8/GB-Facial_hair.jpg</url> <name>Facial hair</name> <alt>Transformers facial hair</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f8/GB-Falcia.jpg</url> <name>Falcia</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a5/GB-ThefallenG1.jpg</url> <name>The Fallen</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a8/GB-Fang.jpg</url> <name>Fang</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5f/GB-fig.png</url> <name>Jorge Figueroa</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d4/GB-FightForEnergon.jpg</url> <name>Fight for Energon</name> <alt>"Fight for Energon"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a2/GB-FireintheSky.jpg</url> <name>Fire in the Sky</name> <alt>"Fire in the Sky"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fa/GB-FireOnTheMountain.jpg</url> <name>Fire on the Mountain</name> <alt>"Fire on the Mountain"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/ee/GB-Fishtest.jpg</url> <name>The Fish Test</name> <alt>"The Fish Test"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/48/GB-FixerBug.jpg</url> <name>Fixer Bug</name> <alt>Fixer Bugs</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8d/GB-FlameUKcomic.jpg</url> <name>Flame (Marvel)</name> <alt>Flame</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/91/GB-Flashbox.jpg</url> <name>Flashbox</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/96/GB-FlattopUK.jpg</url> <name>Flattop (Autobot)</name> <alt>Autobot Flattop</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6b/GB-FortressMaximusG1.jpg</url> <name>Fortress Maximus (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Fortress Maximus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c0/GB-Fred.jpg</url> <name>Fred (Armada)</name> <alt>Armada Fred</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6e/GB-Furmanism.jpg</url> <name>Furmanism</name> <alt>Furmanisms</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e5/GB-Garboil.jpg</url> <name>Garboil (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Garboil</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b4/GB-GasSkunk.jpg</url> <name>Gas Skunk</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/50/GB-Gas_station.jpg</url> <name>Gas station</name> <alt>the Micromaster gas station</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/38/GB-GB.jpg</url> <name>G.B. Blackrock</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/94/GB-Generation2.jpg</url> <name>Generation 2 (franchise)</name> <alt>Transformers: Generation 2</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/65/GB-Generations.jpg</url> <name>Transformers Generations</name> <alt>the Transformers Generations book</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/7e/GB-Generics.jpg</url> <name>Generic</name> <alt>"generic" Transformer designs</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/31/GB-Gingham.jpg</url> <name>Gingham</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1f/GB-GirlWhoLovedPowerglide.jpg</url> <name>The Girl Who Loved Powerglide</name> <alt>"The Girl Who Loved Powerglide"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/23/GB-Gnaw.jpg</url> <name>Gnaw</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/39/GB-G1GoBots.jpg</url> <name>G1 GoBots</name> <alt>the G1 GoBots</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fc/GB-Golden_disk.jpg </url> <name>Golden Disk (disambiguation)</name> <alt>the Golden Disks</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/11/GB-GoldenLagoon.jpg</url> <name>The Golden Lagoon</name> <alt>"The Golden Lagoon"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/18/GB-goo.jpg </url> <name>Goo 8739B</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/32/GB-GrimlocksNewBrain.jpg</url> <name>Grimlock%27s New Brain</name> <alt>"Grimlock's New Brain"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d9/GB-RIDGrimlock.jpg</url> <name>Grimlock (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Grimlock</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/39/GB-GrappleG1.jpg</url> <name>Grapple</name> <alt>Grapple</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/42/GB-Grizzly1.jpg</url> <name>Grizzly-1</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/23/GB-Hacksaw.jpg</url> <name>Hacksaw</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/ff/GB-Halloween.JPG</url> <name>Halloween</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/47/GB-HanSolo.jpg</url> <name>Han Solo</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/33/GB-HatePlague.jpg</url> <name>Hate Plague</name> <alt>the Hate Plague</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f5/GB-Headmasters_(comic).jpg</url> <name>Headmasters (comic)</name> <alt>the Headmasters comic</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/49/GB-Heatwave.jpg</url> <name>Heatwave (Timelines)</name> <alt>Timelines Heatwave</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6e/GB-HHR.jpg</url> <name>HHR</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4b/GB-HighWire.jpg</url> <name>High Wire (Armada)</name> <alt>Armada High Wire</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b6/GB-Holomatter.jpg</url> <name>Holomatter</name> <alt>holomatter</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6e/GB_Ani_Hot_Shot.jpg</url> <name>Hot Shot (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Hot Shot</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/06/GB-SGHound.jpg</url> <name>Hound (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Hound</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/37/GB-Hunter-O%27Nion.jpg</url> <name>Hunter O%27Nion</name> <alt>Hunter O'Nion</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/37/GB-ImprosonedInferno.jpg</url> <name>Imprisoned Inferno</name> <alt>"Improsoned Inferno" (sic)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/9e/GB-Impactor.jpg</url> <name>Impactor (G1)</name> <alt>Impactor</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/99/GB-Infiltration-Protocol.jpg</url> <name>Infiltration protocol</name> <alt>the infiltration protocol</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/77/GB-Io.jpg</url> <name>Io</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4d/GB-Ironfist.jpg</url> <name>Ironfist (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Ironfist</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8a/GB-IrwinSpoon.jpg</url> <name>Irwin Spoon (G1)</name> <alt>Irwin Spoon</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/35/GB-Jaam.jpg</url> <name>JaAm</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6b/GB-Japanese_themes.jpg </url> <name>Japanese themes</name> <alt>Japanese theme songs</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/ba/GB-JazzG1.jpg</url> <name>Jazz (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Jazz</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f1/GB-JazzMovie.jpg</url> <name>Jazz (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Jazz</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/98/GB-Jetfire%28ROTF%29.jpg</url> <name>Jetfire (ROTF)</name> <alt>Revenge of the Fallen Jetfire</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/58/GB-Jhiaxus.jpg</url> <name>Jhiaxus (G2)</name> <alt>Jhiaxus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1d/GB-JohnHenry.jpg</url> <name>John Henry</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/9f/GB-Jungaroo.jpg</url> <name>Jungaroo</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6c/GB-kakuryu.jpg</url> <name>Kakuryū</name> <alt>Kakuryū</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c6/GB-KellyRID.jpg</url> <name>Kelly (RID)</name> <alt>Kelly</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/9e/GB-Key_to_Vector_Sigma.jpg</url> <name>Key to Vector Sigma</name> <alt>the Key to Vector Sigma</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2c/GB-KickbackG1.jpg</url> <name>Hearts of Steel</name> <alt>Hearts of Steel</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6e/GB-KickerJones.jpg</url> <name>Kicker Jones</name> <alt>Kicker</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c9/GB-King.jpg</url> <name>King</name> <alt>the King</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/ef/GB-Kremzeek.jpg</url> <name>Kremzeek</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/63/GB-Lady_Jaye.jpg</url> <name>Lady Jaye</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8b/GB-Ladybird.jpg</url> <name>Ladybird Books</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6c/GB-TimelinesLandquake.jpg</url> <name>Landquake (Timelines)</name> <alt>Timelines Landquake</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c3/GB-G1Laserbeak.jpg</url> <name>Laserbeak (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Laserbeak</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/7a/GB-Leader1Armada.jpg</url> <name>Leader-1 (Armada)</name> <alt>Armada Leader-1</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b4/GB-LegacyofUnicron.jpg</url> <name>The Legacy of Unicron!</name> <alt>"The Legacy of Unicron!"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a8/GB-Lennox.jpg</url> <name>William Lennox</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a6/GB-ukletters.jpg</url> <name>Letters page (Marvel UK)</name> <alt>the Marvel UK letters page</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/02/GB-Lipole.jpg</url> <name>Lipole</name> <name>lipoles</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/0d/GB-Lori.jpg</url> <name>Lori</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/73/GB-LouHoover.jpg</url> <name>Lou Hoover</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/12/GB-M9-2HarpoonGun.jpg</url> <name>M9-2 Harpoon Gun</name> <alt>the M9-2 Harpoon Gun</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b3/GB-Machination.jpg</url> <name>Machination</name> <alt>the Machination</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c8/GB-Magnawing.jpg</url> <name>Magnawing</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/35/GB-Magnificence.jpg</url> <name>Magnificence</name> <alt>the Magnificence</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/77/GB-Malignus.jpg</url> <name>Malignus (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Malignus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/0a/GB-MarissaFairborne.jpg</url> <name>Marissa Faireborn</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f5/GB-MartyIsenberg.jpg</url> <name>Marty Isenberg</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a6/GB-MatrixCannon.jpg</url> <name>Matrix Cannon</name> <alt>the Matrix Cannon</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/eb/GB-Max.jpg</url> <name>Max</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a8/GB-Mecannibals.jpg</url> <name>Mecannibal</name> <alt>the Mecannibals</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/15/GB-Megabolt.jpg</url> <name>Megabolt</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a8/GB-armadamegs.jpg</url> <name>Megatron (Armada)</name> <alt>''Armada'' Megatron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5c/GB-MegatronAnimated.jpg</url> <name>Megatron (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Megatron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e4/GB-MegatronBW.jpg</url> <name>Megatron (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Megatron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d1/GB-GigatronCR.jpg</url> <name>Megatron (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Megatron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fd/GB-MeltdownAni.jpg</url> <name>Meltdown (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Meltdown</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/79/GB-Metallikato.jpg</url> <name>Metallikato</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fd/GB_Mickey_Mouse.jpg</url> <name>Mickey Mouse</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/59/GB-Mindset.jpg</url> <name>Mindset (G2)</name> <alt>Generation 2 Mindset</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/84/GB-Minerva.jpg</url> <name>Minerva (Masterforce)</name> <alt>Masterforce Minerva</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/71/GB-Mirror.jpg</url> <name>Mirror</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/ca/GB-MixmasterAni.jpg</url> <name>Mixmaster (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Mixmaster</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/83/GB-Monstructor.jpg</url> <name>Monstructor (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Monstructor</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5a/GB-Multilingual.jpg</url> <name>multilingual packaging</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/74/GB-Nebulos.jpg</url> <name>Nebulos</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/7e/GB-NekomimiAandB.jpg</url> <name>Nekomimi A and Nekomimi B</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8a/GB-NemesisPrimeIDW.jpg</url> <name>Nova Prime</name> <alt>Nova/Nemesis Prime</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/ff/GB-Neon.jpg</url> <name>Neon</name> <alt>neon! Ow</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c2/GB-NightbeatG1.jpg</url> <name>Nightbeat (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Nightbeat</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/42/GB-NightbeatArmada.jpg</url> <name>Nightbeat (Armada)</name> <alt>Armada Nightbeat</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/bd/GB-NightscreamClassics.jpg</url> <name>Nightscream (Classics)</name> <alt>Classics Nightscream</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a4/GB-O.jpg</url> <name>"O"</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/34/GB-Oparts.jpg</url> <name>O-Part</name> <alt>the O-Parts</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1d/GB-OctopunchG1.jpg</url> <name>Octopunch (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Octopunch</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/92/GB-OmegaSupreme.JPG</url> <name>Omega Supreme (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Omega Supreme</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d4/GB-ontheedgeofextinction.jpg</url> <name>On the Edge of Extinction!</name> <alt>"On the Edge of Extinction!"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2e/GB-KojiOnishi.jpg</url> <name>Koji Onishi</name> <alt>Koji Onishi</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/19/GB-OptimusMinor.jpg</url> <name>Optimus Minor</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/99/GB-G1prime.jpg</url> <name>Optimus Prime (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Optimus Prime</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/86/GB-RiDPrime.jpg</url> <name>Optimus Prime (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Optimus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/94/GB-Orbital-Jump.jpg</url> <name>Orbital jump</name> <alt>orbital jumps</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4d/GB-MegatronBW1.jpg</url> <name>Other Victories</name> <alt>"Other Victories"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/36/GB-OtherVoices1.jpg</url> <name>Other Voices, Part 1</name> <alt>"Other Voices" Part 1</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/af/GB-Outback.jpg</url> <name>Outback (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Outback</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/97/GB-Overlord.jpg</url> <name>Overlord (Masterforce)</name> <alt>Masterforce Overlord</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/38/GB-PepsiConvoy.jpg</url> <name>Pepsi Convoy</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/38/GB-photodegradation.jpg</url> <name>Photodegradation</name> <alt>photodegradation</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/01/GB-PickUpBatRobo.jpg</url> <name>Pick-Up (Bat-Rob%F4)</name> <alt>Bat-Robo Pick-Up</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/cc/GB-Plastic.jpg</url> <name>Plastic</name> <alt>plastic</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/da/GB-playpattern.jpg</url> <name>Play pattern</name> <alt>play pattern</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/cf/GB-PoisonBite.jpg</url> <name>Poison Bite</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/cc/GB-Power_Plans.jpg</url> <name>Power Plans</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/9e/GB-Pretender.jpg</url> <name>Pretender</name> <alt>the Pretenders</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c2/GB-Primus.jpg</url> <name>Primus</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/60/GB-ProfessorPrincess.jpg</url> <name>Professor Princess</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4f/GB_Protector.jpg</url> <name>Protector</name> <alt>the Protectors</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/15/GB-prototype.jpg</url> <name>Prototype</name> <alt>prototypes</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/28/GoBox_TFA_Prowl.jpg</url> <name>Prowl (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Prowl</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3a/GB-RIDProwl.jpg</url> <name>Prowl (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Prowl</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/90/GB-PsychoOrb.jpg</url> <name>Psycho-Orb</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/79/GB-rani.png</url> <name>Natasha Pyraniac</name> <alt>Natasha Pyraniac</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/ec/GB-GagColosseum.jpg</url> <name>Q-Robo Transformer</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e8/GB_Questor.jpg </url> <name>Questor</name> <alt>the Questors</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/37/GB-Quintesson.jpg </url> <name>Quintesson</name> <alt>the Quintessons</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/64/GB-RackNRuin.jpg</url> <name>Rack%27n%27Ruin</name> <alt>Rack'n'Ruin</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a7/GB-Raindance.jpg</url> <name>Raindance</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e3/GB-RampageBW.jpg</url> <name>Rampage (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Rampage</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/ab/GB-RamulusBW.jpg</url> <name>Ramulus</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3f/GB-Rangefinder.jpg</url> <name>Rangefinder</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/69/GB-RansackG2.jpg</url> <name>Ransack (G2)</name> <alt>Generation 2 Ransack</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/7d/GB-Raoul.jpg</url> <name>Raoul</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b5/GB-RatbatG1.jpg</url> <name>Ratbat (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Ratbat</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d5/GB-AniRatchet.jpg</url> <name>Ratchet (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Ratchet</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/87/GB-RatchetG1.jpg</url> <name>Ratchet (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Ratchet</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/16/Primeratchetgoicon.jpg</url> <name>Ratchet (Prime)</name> <alt>Prime Ratchet</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/0c/GB-Rattrap.jpg</url> <name>Rattrap</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/96/GB-SGRavage.jpg</url> <name>Ravage (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Ravage</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/02/GB-Razorbeast.jpg</url> <name>Razorbeast</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a4/GB-RazorclawTFU.jpg</url> <name>Razorclaw (Universe)</name> <alt>Universe Razorclaw</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3f/GB-RecipeforDisaster.jpg</url> <name>Recipe for Disaster!</name> <alt>"Recipe for Disaster!"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/30/GB-RedHot.jpg</url> <name>Red Hot</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/09/GB-ReggieSimmons.jpg</url> <name>Seymour Simmons</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/94/GB-RenoWilson.jpg</url> <name>Reno Wilson</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b8/GB-Reproduction.jpg</url> <name>Reproduction</name> <alt>Transformers reproduction</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/0e/GB-Return_of_the_Headmaster.jpg</url> <name>The Return of the Headmaster</name> <alt>"The Return of the Headmaster"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/16/GB-RickAstley.jpg</url> <name>Rick Astley</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/84/GB-Stepper.jpg</url> <name>Ricochet (Headmasters)</name> <alt>Targetmaster Ricochet</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3b/GB-RoadblockGIJoe.jpg</url> <name>Roadblock (G.I. Joe)</name> <alt>G.I. Joe's Roadblock</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b3/GB-RodimusShattered.jpg</url> <name>Rodimus (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Rodimus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3a/GB-G1RodimusPrime.jpg</url> <name>Hot Rod (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Rodimus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/97/GB-Ron.jpg</url> <name>Ron</name> <alt>Ron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3a/GB-SGRook.jpg</url> <name>Rook (SG)</name> <alt>Shattered Glass Rook</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/85/GB-Rorza.jpg</url> <name>Rorza, the Rocket-cycle Racer from Rigel III</name> <alt>Rorza the Rocket-cycle Racer</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/df/GB-Rosanna.jpg</url> <name>Rosanna (KP)</name> <alt>Kiss Players Rosanna</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3d/GB-RotateBlade.jpg</url> <name>Cyber-slash tail weapon</name> <alt>the rotate blade</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8d/GB-Roulette.jpg</url> <name>Roulette (Universe)</name> <alt>Universe Roulette</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/ff/GB-RubberduckyBW.jpg</url> <name>Rubber Ducky</name> <alt>the Rubber Ducky</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b6/GB-Ruination.jpg</url> <name>Ruination_(RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Ruination</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e8/GB-Rung.jpg</url> <name>Rung</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/ec/GB-SaltManZ.jpg</url> <name>Salt-Man Z</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c3/GB-Sari.jpg</url> <name>Sari Sumdac</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/65/GB-Scale.jpg</url> <name>Scale</name> <alt>scale (or lack of)</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2b/GB-ScavengerBM.jpg</url> <name>Scavenger (BM)</name> <alt>Beast Machines Scavenger</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c2/GB-ScowlG1.jpg</url> <name>Scowl</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d5/GB-Scraplet.jpg</url> <name>Scraplet</name> <alt>scraplets</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/7b/GB-Scrounge.jpg</url> <name>Scrounge (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Scrounge</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/22/GB-Scylla.jpg</url> <name>Scylla</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2c/GB-SearchlightG1.jpg</url> <name>Searchlight (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Searchlight</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/52/GB-SectorSeven.jpg</url> <name>Sector Seven</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/25/GB-SeekerGroup.jpg</url> <name>Seeker (body-type)</name> <alt>the Seekers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a5/GBAniSentinelPrime.jpg</url> <name>Sentinel Prime (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Sentinel Prime</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b3/GB-Servo.jpg</url> <name>Servo</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/52/GB-shatteredglass.jpg</url> <name>Shattered Glass (franchise)</name> <alt>the Shattered Glass universe</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/15/GB-Shatterpoint.jpg</url> <name>Shatterpoint</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fa/GB-Shellformer.jpg</url> <name>Shellformer</name> <alt>shellformers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/7d/GB-shelfwarmer.jpg</url> <name>Shelfwarmer</name> <alt>shelfwarmers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2f/GB-ShockblastEnergon.jpg </url> <name>Shockblast</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e5/GB-Shockwave.jpg</url> <name>Shockwave (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Shockwave</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/35/GB-Sideways(RiD).jpg</url> <name>Sideways (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise/Armada/Cybertron Sideways</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e4/GB-SignalFlareEn.jpg</url> <name>Signal Flare (Energon)</name> <alt>Energon Signal Flare</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/99/GB-SilverboltBW.jpg</url> <name>Silverbolt (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Silverbolt</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b5/GB-SimonBelmondo.jpg</url> <name>Simon Belmondo</name> <alt>Simon Belmont</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/af/GB-furman.jpg</url> <name>Simon Furman</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/cd/GB-SkidZRID.jpg</url> <name>Skid-Z (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Skid-Z</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/90/GB-SkidsG1.jpg</url> <name>Skids (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Skids</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e0/GB-SkidsROTF.jpg</url> <name>Skids (ROTF)</name> <alt>Revenge of the Fallen Skids</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b8/GB-SkybyteRID.jpg</url> <name>Sky-Byte (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Sky-Byte</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/bf/GB-SkyLynxG1.jpg</url> <name>Sky Lynx (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Sky Lynx</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/42/GB-CybertronSkyfall.jpg</url> <name>Skyfall (Cybertron)</name> <alt>Cybertron Skyfall</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/60/GB-SkywarpBW2.jpg</url> <name>Skywarp (BWII)</name> <alt>Beast Wars II Skywarp</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/ab/GB-SmokescreenG2.jpg</url> <name>Smokescreen (G2)</name> <alt>Generation 2 Smokescreen</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1b/GB-SoundwavePrime.jpg</url> <name>Soundwave (Prime)</name> <alt>Prime Soundwave</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/0d/GB-Space_Bridge.jpg</url> <name>Space bridge</name> <alt>space bridges</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/90/GB-SpaceMini-ConTeam.jpg</url> <name>Space Mini-Con Team</name> <alt>the Space Mini-Con Team</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e8/GB-Spaceshot.jpg</url> <name>Spaceshot</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/52/GB-Coldsparks.jpg</url> <name>Sparking gimmick</name> <alt>sparking gimmicks</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f1/GB-Springer.jpg</url> <name>Springer (G1)</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/79/GB-AnimatedStarscream.jpg</url> <name>Starscream (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Starscream</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/ad/GB-StarscreamMovie.jpg</url> <name>Starscream (Movie)</name> <alt>movie Starscream</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/01/GB-StarUpper.jpg</url> <name>Star Upper (BWII)</name> <alt>Star Upper</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1b/GB-StellaHolley.jpg</url> <name>Stella Holley</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/1a/GB-StickerAdventures.jpg</url> <name>Sticker Adventures</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/bd/GB-Stratotronic_Jet.jpg</url> <name>Stratotronic Jet</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4b/GB-Sunstreaker.jpg</url> <name>Sunstreaker (G1)</name> <alt>Sunstreaker</alt></item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/ab/GB-TAI.jpg</url> <name>T-AI</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/15/GB-Tailgate.png</url> <name>Tailgate (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Tailgate</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5e/GB-TankorROTF.jpg</url> <name>Tankor (ROTF)</name> <alt>Revenge of the Fallen Tankor</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/83/GB-TapoutG1.jpg</url> <name>Tap-Out (G1)</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e3/GB-Tarantulas.jpg</url> <name>Tarantulas (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Tarantulas</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f0/GB-TaraStrong.jpg</url> <name>Tara Strong</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e7/GB-Target2006.jpg</url> <name>Target: 2006</name> <alt>"Target: 2006"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/22/GB-TechSpec.jpg</url> <name>Tech Spec</name> <alt>Tech Specs</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/08/GB-Teletraan_15.gif</url> <name>Teletraan 15</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b0/GB-TRED.jpg</url> <name>The Real Effing Deal</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5d/GB-thingsthatdontexist.jpg</url> <name>Category:Things_that_don%27t_exist</name> <alt>things that don't exist</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/21/GB-ThrottlerPCC.jpg</url> <name>Throttler</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/9d/GB-ThunderblastDecep.jpg</url> <name>Thunderblast (Decepticon)</name> <alt>Decepticon Thunderblast</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/18/GB-G1Thunderwing.jpg</url> <name>Thunderwing (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Thunderwing</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/ab/GB-TigatronBW.jpg</url> <name>Tigatron</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/21/GB-TommyKennedy.jpg</url> <name>Tommy Kennedy</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/df/GB-TorquerifleG1.jpg</url> <name>Torque rifle</name> <alt>the torque rifle</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/21/GB-RIDTow-Line.jpg</url> <name>Tow-Line (RID)</name> <alt>Robots in Disguise Tow-Line</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/ed/GB-toy.jpg</url> <name>Toy</name> <alt>toys</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/71/GB-ToySwapping.JPG</url> <name>Toy swapping</name> <alt>toy swapping</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4f/GB-TransformersUniverseActionBlast1Part1.jpg</url> <name>Action Blast 1</name> <alt>"Action Blast 1"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/32/GB-AGoBoxOfYourOwn.jpg</url> <name>Transformers_Wiki:A_GoBox_of_your_own!</name> <alt>a GoBox of your own</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e1/GB-Bulkhead_hat.jpg</url> <name>Transformer clothing</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a4/GB-PDTF.jpg</url> <name>Transformers PD Type</name> <alt>"Transformers PD Type"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/33/GB-TranswarpCruiser.jpg</url> <name>Transwarp cruiser</name> <alt>the Transwarp Cruiser</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fd/GB-TurboBatRobo.jpg</url> <name>Turbo</name> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d7/GB-Ultra-Energon.jpg</url> <name>Ultra-Energon</name> <alt>Ore-13</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/38/GB-UltraMagnusEn.jpg</url> <name>Ultra Magnus (Energon)</name> <alt>Energon Ultra Magnus</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/eb/GB-Unicron.jpg</url> <name>Unicron#G.I._Joe_vs._the_Transformers</name> <alt>Unicron</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/de/GB-unicronsingularity.jpg</url> <name>Unicron Singularity</name> <alt>the Unicron Singularity</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a3/GB-UnreleasedToys.jpg</url> <name>Unreleased toy</name> <alt>unreleased toys</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/df/GB-VVH.jpg</url> <name>Variable voltage harness</name> <alt>the variable voltage harness</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/b6/GB-Vehicon.jpg</url> <name>Vehicon (BM)</name> <alt>the Beast Machines Vehicons</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f6/GB-Velocitron.jpg</url> <name> Velocitron</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a6/GB-Verity-Carlo.jpg</url> <name>Verity Carlo</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/2c/GB-Void.jpg</url> <name>Void</name> <alt>the void</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e6/GB-AniWasp.jpg</url> <name>Wasp</name> <alt>Wasp</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/b/bc/GB-Waspinator.jpg</url> <name>Waspinator (BW)</name> <alt>Beast Wars Waspinator</alt></item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/43/GB-Web_World.jpg</url> <name>Webworld</name> <alt>"Webworld"</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/48/GB-WeirdAl.jpg</url> <name>"Weird Al" Yankovic</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4b/GB-Wheelie.jpg</url> <name>Wheelie (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Wheelie</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c3/GB-WhirlG1.jpg</url> <name>Whirl (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Whirl</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e7/GB-Windcharger.jpg</url> <name>Windcharger (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Windcharger</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/74/GB-Wiretap.jpg</url> <name>Wire Tap V20</name> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d6/GB-WolfangPred.jpg</url> <name>Wolfang (Predacon)</name> <alt>Predacon Wolfang</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/1/16/GB-WreckGarAni.jpg</url> <name>Wreck-Gar (Animated)</name> <alt>Animated Wreck-Gar</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/68/GB-WreckGarG1.jpg</url> <name>Wreck-Gar (G1)</name> <alt>Generation 1 Wreck-Gar</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/f1/GB-Wreckers.jpg</url> <name>Wrecker</name> <alt>the Wreckers</alt> </item>

<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/55/GB-WrecklooseROTF.jpg</url> <name>Wreckloose (ROTF)</name> <alt>Revenge of the Fallen Wreckloose</alt> </item>



<item> <url>http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/6a/GB-XGunner.jpg</url> <name>X-Gunner</name> </item>

</document>

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2012-08-01T16:11:57Z

McFly: /* Technical Contact (and passwords) */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2012-08-01T15:54:46Z

McFly: /* Technical Contact (and passwords) */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-11-08T21:13:02Z

McFly: /* Help Wanted */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-11-07T19:20:54Z

McFly: /* Two spaces after a period in a sentence */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-08-14T19:46:19Z

McFly: /* Gif uploads blocked? */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Categories by toy size class? ==
Do we ''want'' the following categories?
 Leader class toy images
 Deluxe class toy images
 Voyager class toy images
 Scout class toy images
 They currently have a very few things in them (and could obviously have many more), but the cat' pages themselves have not been created. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:43, 12 February 2011 (EST)

:No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:13, 12 February 2011 (EST)

::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:06, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:::As long as it's only the images and not the articles, I couldn't care less. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:09, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:There's also a "Legends class toy images" category which has 90 images in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:21, 15 February 2011 (EST)

::Legends are kind of an exception because they're a different scale/play pattern, as evidenced by the upcoming Cyberverse stuff. Scouts-on-up are ''generally'' meant to intermingle, Legends aren't. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:41, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I could go either way on this one. It's a lot of work to fill these categories out, but the ability to find all the Deluxe figures easily intrigues me. If we did institute this I would also think that this would be the proper place to put the "exclusive figure" categories and such. Basically, any category that pertains to a particular toy and not to the character could be tagged to the image of that toy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 23:08, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:I've been doing them because I saw other people do them. I don't mind either way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:51, 16 February 2011 (EST)
So, counting me as "no", that's three "no"s, an "I don't care", an "I don't mind either way", and an "either way/intrigues me". I think we're leaning toward "no". Final comments? [[User:JW|JW]] 07:08, 16 February 2011 (EST)

::I guess it's "no" or at least "not the time"? (Though I'm "I'm not sure".) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 11:21, 16 February 2011 (EST)
:::I've gone with "no", and added a note to that effect to [[Transformers_Wiki:Images]]. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:27, 16 February 2011 (EST)

Ha ha, none of the no's have actually said why they've said no. Such super debating skills that. [[Special:Contributions/213.105.226.130|213.105.226.130]] 17:44, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Undo Redone? ==

I just undid an edit, but instead of getting the automatic "Reverting edit ##### by User1 to last version by User2" summary, that box was blank. In addition, above the edit window were the captions "Current revision" and "Your text", side by side, as if there's meant to be one editable text window under each. Instead, there was only one such text window beneath them, stretching across under both captions. The page is protected so only registered users can edit it, so that MIGHT have something to do with the problem, though I doubt it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:28, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:It doesn't automatically create an edit summary if you're doing an undo on multiple revisions, so that might be it. Not sure about the other part - it's always shown me a diff at the top of the screen when I've done an undo. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:54, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::Okay, blank edit summary's explained, because it was indeed a group of 3-4 edits being undone all at once. Still inexplicable is the fact that I just checked the page history; it didn't even accept my Undo! LoneGamer78 ended up doing it instead. I've noticed some sluggish response from the site over the past fifteen minutes or so, perhaps whatever caused that was a factor? It may never be known...--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:02, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::Is it possible she just beat you to it by a few moments and thus there was an edit conflict? I've had that happen sometimes, and so there's no diff shown because now the page already matches what you were going to change it to. (Uh, does that make sense?) --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 22:17, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::::Can't rule it out entirely, but edit conflicts usually announce themselves as such, and they DO have two distinct editable text windows: one showing the text as it stands after someone edited while you were typing, the other as it would have been if you'd edited without interference.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:24, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::::A few times I've "undone" an edit, but someone else beat me to it. It doesn't seem to show an edit conflict if that happens, probably because the change is identical to the previous one. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:06, 19 February 2011 (EST)

== Banner ad question. ==
The small side box ad (the one that's still a free-floater) currently has an ad for some webcomic. Which is fine, but one of the panels has GIANT ERECT LADY NIPPLES ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm not offended by it, but it's, uh, something. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 06:39, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:Ah, yeah. That'd be because it's an NSFW comic called DarkBrain which is read aloud by "adult film star Tabitha Stevens." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:50, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:: If people don't like it, I can yank it. I didn't think its THO was that objectionable, apparently, when I okayed it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:27, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== help ==

I cant find the latest talk please help([[User:Manmcmanman|Manmcmanman]] 15:44, 21 February 2011 (EST))
:What do you mean by the latest talk? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 15:54, 21 February 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen Online Games ==

So, I figured I might as well finish up the online game write-ups for Revenge of the Fallen online games, in case they go offline once Dark of the Moon comes out. But, hot damn, do I ever suck. Which means I'm not very likely to get pics of later levels in some of these games. I'll be trying to add in whatever I can to these sections, but some help would be much appreciated! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:I can have a go at getting some screencaps tonight if no one else does. Which games in particular? I noticed some of them are already gone a couple of weeks ago, as Hasbro has redirected most of the monkeybar site they were on to the Hub site, which doesn't have them. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::Well, personally I'm having difficulty getting pics of every character's sprite from Battle for the Matrix. I'm currently working on The RPMs Devastator game. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 18:41, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::I got caps of everyone except the Fallen, haven't uploaded them yet though. I couldn't get the [[flying drone]]s to transform either. They just seem to fly around wildly in robot mode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::Dang! The Fallen is the only one I can't get to either! And yeah, the flying drones are near-impossible to get a screencap of. I got a couple mid-transformation, but that's it. If any of your pics are better than mine, feel free to replace them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:55, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::::I went and got pics from Flight of the Bumblebee and Allspark Highway. Unfortunately I can't get pics of Ratchet from the later since robovision isn't up anymore! Darn! I'll upload them later. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:45, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I grabbed a screenshot of The Fallen finally. Man, that game is a memory hog. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:38, 25 February 2011 (EST)

== Countdown? ==

Sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a while back ago, there was a countdown to ROTF on the Main Page. Perhaps a countdown to DOTM would now be appropriate as it's so close?

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to program/insert/design/<insert verb here> a countdown on a wiki page (it's for another wiki). What template or whatever does that use? I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me.

Again, terribly sorry if this is the wrong place to say this...
 - [[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:02 PM, 22 February 2011 A.D.
:Dark of the Moon countdown based on Derik's ROTF code: {{#expr: ({{ #time: U |July 1, 2011}} - {{ #time: U }})/86400 round 0}} days until [[Dark of the Moon (film)|TF: Dark of the Moon]]! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (EST)

==When to omit "Transformers" from an article title==
So I got a hankering to remove the "Transformers" from [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and all of their related pages, since unlike [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]], there's just no good reason to break policy for them. There are [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|other video games that we drop the "TF" from]], and if "Prime" is too common a term, then what about "[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]" or "[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]"?

But then I decided to check out [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?ns0=1&search=Transformers&searchx=Search&limit=500 which pages use "Transformers" in their titles,] and holyyyyyyyy crap. I copy-pasted here all the ones I found that I thought could lose the "Transformers" without negating their meaning, destroying a phrase, or otherwise severely damaging the title. (I added an "(etc.)" to each one that represents a series of identically-worded pages):

[[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Animated (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)]] 
[[1-2-3 Transformers]] 
[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Legends]] 
[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: The Headmasters (video game)]] 
[[The Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Energon Within]] 
[[The Transformers Collection]] 
[[Transformers Quest]] 
[[Transformers Key Recovery: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Power Up: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed]] 
[[Transformers PD Type]] 
[[Transformers: The Animated Movie]] 
[[Transformers Generations]] 
[[Transformers: Rise of the Chevy Autobots]] 
[[Transformers Annual 1990]] (etc.) 
[[The Transformers Sticker Book (1986)]] 
[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)]] 
[[Transformers: The Junior Novel]] 
[[Look and Find Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Coloring and Activity Book and Crayons]] 
[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers: Learn to Count Activity Tablet]] 
[[Transformers The Reusable Sticker Book]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Storybook]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Guide]] 
[[Transformers Prime Time]] 
[[Transformers Mix & Match]] 
[[Transformers Comic issue 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers The Game (console)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Autobots/Decepticons]] 
[[Transformers History of Music 1984-1990]] 
[[Transformers: Mosaic]] 
[[Transformers Name Generator]] 
[[Transformers Battle Universe]] 
[[The Transformers: Binaltech & TF Collection Complete Guide]] 
[[The Transformers Comic Magazine]] 
[[Transformers Pop-Up Book]] 
[[Transformers Visualworks]] 
[[Transformers Tooth Tunes]] 
[[Transformers Tapestry]] 
[[Transformers Song Universe]] 
[[Transformers G1: Awakening]] 
[[Transformers Armada Annual 2004]] 
[[Transformers: Beginnings]] 
[[Transformers the Movie water]] 
[[Transformers: The Score]] 
[[Transformers: The Thirteen]] 
[[Transformers: War Within Omnibus]] 
[[Transformers: The Ride]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Mutating Card Game]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Jigsaw Puzzle]] 
[[Transformers: Kōtetsu no Yūki]] 
[[The Transformers Continuum: The Definitive Chronology]] 
[[The Transformers: Bumblebee]] 
[[Transformers Adventures]] (etc.) 
[[Top Trumps: Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Race for the Mini-Con Robots]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Battle Begins]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Secret of the Star Saber]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Autobots Strike Back]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 1]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 2]] 
[[Transformers Theme Song Collection]] 
[[The Transformers: Drift]] 
[[Transformers Revenge of the Fallen Annual 2010]] 
[[Transformers CyberToy]] 
[[Transformers Hall of Fame]] 
[[The Transformers: Ironhide]] 
[[Transformers Evo.]] 
[[The Transformers Legends of the Microns: Sound of Evolution Vol. 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Music Matrix]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide: Revenge]] 
[[Transformers: Battle for the Matrix]] 
[[Transformers: Coloring and Activity Book and Stickers]] 
[[Transformers: Activity Book and Gel Pen]] 
[[Transformers: Sector 7]] 
[[Transformers: Cybertron Adventures]] 
[[Transformers Cards]] 
[[Transformers RPMs: Devastator's Demise]] 
[[Cadbury's Transformers Card Game]] 
[[Ridiculous Legend Transformers]] 
[[Famicom How-to Manga: Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Transformers Caramel]] 
[[Transformers Comic-Magazin]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Extra Comic-Sonderheft]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Super-Auswahlband]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Energon Valentine's cards]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 1]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 2]]

For many of them, the choice to keep or drop the "TF" seems intuitive, and many others are in a grey area... but I'll be damned if I can put into words any kind of coherent rationale. I'm seriously thinking that we've outgrown the "drop extraneous 'TF's" rule. Back when we only had a few hundred pages, it made a certain kind of sense: Why bother writing out stuff like "Transformers: Generation 2" when just "Generation 2" is equally meaningful to everyone here? Besides, isn't every page about Transformers by default? But in the past five years, both the wiki and the subject matter have exploded, and with both so many fine-grain, obscure topics being covered and so much not-strictly-TF content we've added, I don't think the policy serves us anymore. It doesn't make things simple; it makes things arbitrary and unpredictable.

So unless someone can sum up our policy in a way that makes a lick of sense, I propose: '''If a topic has an official title, then that should be used in full as the title of the relevant articles.''' Period. So [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] would stay right where they are, and yes, [[Generation 2 (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)", [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)", etc. I don't think we'd need to make that change happen instantly, but we could slowly propagate it as people feel inclined to. I also think we can keep the parenthetical abbreviations and in-sentence references as short as they currently are; this is only about the titles.

Thoughts?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:What are these "Transformers"? -[[Special:Contributions/75.185.113.106|75.185.113.106]] 18:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I've always been for having the full name as article titles. (Maybe also drop the "(franchise)" disambigs, because durr, but that's other topic.) Not only do we keep the full name of the subject, it aids us in disambiguation (it's easier to have smaller sets of "Transformers: Cybertron" and "Cybertron" than a large set of just "Cybertron"). [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::I don't have an opinion on adding or removing "Transformers:" from articles (other than that adding it would perhaps make articles and reading unnecessarily longer - right now, I hate having to type out "Transformers Animated" before "The AllSpark Almanac"), but I do oppose removing (franchise). If there's one thing I hate, it's when there's one 'most important' page that goes undisamb'ed (like Spark) and you'll have to go through a lot of trouble to ensure it all is meant to link there. When I cleaned up the Lithone links for planet and species, nearly every single one link directed the wrong way. Same for D-HQ, AllSpark vs Allspark, Junkion, Black Friday, etc. So, keep (franchise). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:49, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I too think "Transformers: " should be kept as well as " (franchise)". --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:46, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::I don't mind losing Transformers when it the prefix in a title that's the form of Transformers: <subtitle>, as in that case the subtitle itself is more the actual official name and "Transformers" is just tacked on as an extra identifier.

::::But in some of those things, Transformers is, well, a vital part of the thing's actual name. I mean, for instance, the Club's full official name ''is'' "Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club", so removing "Transformers" from it would be incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 03:00, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I don't think that distinction is clear enough to be workable anymore. Looking at that list, tons of them I have no idea which side of the divide they'd fall on. For instance, "[[Transformers Legends]]" is the proper title of the book; that's how it would be listed in any store or library, but for ''our'' purposes the "TF" is as extraneous as the one that we omit from [[Energon (comic)]] or [[Dinobots Strike Back]]. The "for our purposes" thing is so often so questionable... like, what would that dictate for [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]? It's definitely a subtitle situation like you described, but there are lots of non-TF "Ultimate Guide"s published by the same company... but we would never cover them, so for our purposes is the "TF" still redundant?
:::::I agree with Geewunling that it would be annoying to have to type out longer titles (though readability should be unchanged, since I think we could still truncate in-sentence references). But right NOW it's annoying that our lack of a coherent policy is making everything increasingly unpredictable. We're seeing a lot of creep in the form of stuff like [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and for some reason video games. So I don't even know what should be "corrected" anymore or how to decide the matter when creating a new article.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 13:58, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::::The annoyance of editors doesn't really enter into my consideration; the wiki is ultimately for the readers, not our convenience. If we have to do some more work for the best presentation, so be it. —Interrobang, not logged in

:I'm OK with moving articles to put Transformers into the title so long as we don't delete the redirects. If we move "Revenge of the Fallen (film)" to "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)", there are going to be a whole bunch of sites linking to the old URL, and I don't wanna have a repeat of the "(Shattered Glass)" thing where all the redirects get deleted and a whole lot of other sites are pointing to useless error pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:25, 23 February 2011 (EST)

=="(WFC)" vs. "(Prime)"==
There are currently [[Talk:Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#"(WFC)" instead of "(Prime)" for characters that originated in this franchise?|two]] [[Talk:Optimus Prime (Prime)#Move|discussions]] going about whether articles on subjects that originated in ''War for Cybertron''-branded fiction (the [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (games)|games]], [[Transformers: Exodus|novel]], and [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|comic]]) should be titled "(WFC)" rather than "(Prime)". It was suggested that this should be brought up in the Community Portal, so here it is.

For the record, looking at [[War for Cybertron games#Featured Characters|this list]], right now we're using "(Prime)" for all named characters, even those currently exclusive to WfC, and "(WFC)" for all character ''types'' from the games. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the state of things.

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:46, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I completely agree with Jackpot. It is stupid we have an article called [[Ultra Magnus (Prime)]] stating "Ultra Magnus is an Autobot Wrecker from the WFC portion of the Aligned family continuity". I blame myself for not doing this a lot earlier, treating the WFC navbox as like a subsection of Prime when the novel was so clearly a tie-in to those games. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 18:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::WFC is a tie-in game. As I pointed out, how many Mini-Cons from the PS2 Transformers game use the disambiguator "(Transformers)"? And even then, what of novel-original characters? Do they get "(Exodus)"? And heck, didn't Exodus come out ''before'' WFC? Shouldn't the characters thusly use "(Exodus)" over "(WFC)" or "(Prime)"? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::: The book and game came out on the same day, as I recall. So... yeah. I'm completely against this. We used "Prime" because that was the name we WERE using for the continuity family; frankly, I find this wishy-washy "aligned continuity family" thing pretty lame. The core of the damn family is the Prime cartoon. It is THE central feature, and will be THE major fictional outlet and -almost assuredly- what future non-show fictions will adhere more closely to. I don't see the point in all this subdividing and adding more parantheticals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:19, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::I find it ''extremely'' hard to believe that if Hasbro's "decade" plan goes through, ''Prime'' is the last franchise we're going to see spring from it. Even Aaron Archer thinks "Prime" is a bad name for the overall deal. Given what a fractured start it's already off to, I think separating out the "family" foundation is the only sensible thing to do. So that's why [[Aligned continuity family]] exists.
::::As for the "(WFC)" notion, I'm not as personally attached to that, even though I do think it's the correct thing to do. Mostly I think that WfC needs to be acknowledged as an entity unto itself, not just a subset of ''Prime''. Strictly from a branding point of view, it ISN'T a subset; nothing has been both WfC- and Prime-branded. It's not just the title of a video game; it's in the titles of [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|a comic]] and [[Transformers: Exodus|a novel]], plus they've made [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#Toys|toys from it]] that definitely don't fit the ''Prime'' brand. (True, the toys aren't labeled "WfC", but that's par for the course with ''Generations'' anyway. At the very least, it's a grey area.) Beyond branding, it just has a unique aesthetic and sensibility that's very different from ''Prime''.
::::Based on all that, the best place WfC fits in our schema is as a "franchise", to my judgement. "''Prime'' tie-in" doesn't cut it.
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:55, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::WFC is not ''just'' a tie-in game. It has [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fcfb1b5-19b9-f369-10be-e91a2108d9ab online bios] and [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172 online timeline]. Hasbro made it its own thing. Franchise-like. Before any Prime show started we learned from the timeline that [[Megatron (Prime)|D-16]] was an Energon mine laborer and rose to prominence in secret gladiatorial combat and took the name "Megatron". So [[Megatron (Prime)]] had a whole history before the show even existed. The non-show characters with the (Prime) disambiguation also shows it doesn't quite fit. I'd go for WFC. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:35, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::AGAIN, Exodus came out the SAME DAY. So why does WFC get prominence? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:56, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::Because that's the phrase that's used in the names of [[War for Cybertron games|all]] [[Transformers: Exodus|the]] [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|media]]. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:02, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I don't see how the subline "The official history of the war for Cybertron" is the exact same as "War For Cybertron: The Vidya Game". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:24, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::I agree. Aside from three (ambiguous) words on the book's front, there's not much that says it's part of the WFC "franchise". Same for Generations. If they wanted to, they could have made figures of every War for Cybertron character and released it in a toyline explicitly called "Transformers: War for Cybertron". But they didn't; they just released five toys based on WFC designs and released them under Generations, so Generations is a WFC toy line as much as it is a G1 one (actually, probably more of G1 considering how very few WFC toys there were). The video games are only different because of hardware limitations, so having multiple games with the same title does not a franchise make. Having a website with bios and everything is a moot point, because almost every video game has that. The comic, I'll give you that one, but I don't think it's a franchise if it's a game and a tie-in comic with a limited release. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:30, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::For what it's worth, when you [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/movie-news/Transformers-War-for-Cybertron.cfm click on "War For Cybertron"] it brings up all the Generations toys. I also think the WFC timeline ties in Exodus to WFC since the events in the comic and timeline are basically from the book. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::It also brings up PCC Icepick (item 12 of 12, on page 2). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:52, 28 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::The WfC-branded timeline and comic both cover events in ''Exodus''. Hell, the comic was written by the same dude. I don't understand the logic that says that the "War for Cybertron" in the novel's title doesn't mean the same thing. If there were a novel called "Deuteronomy: The Official History of the Beast Wars" set during the events of the cartoon, I wouldn't be trying to say it was part of the ''Beast Machines'' franchise.
::::::::Let me put in a slightly different light: Because franchises are branding-based, not continuity-based, I'm not comfortable with the ''Prime'' franchise being stretched to include all this stuff that doesn't have the ''Prime'' label on it. Yes, it's clearly all RELATED, story-wise, but that's what [[Aligned continuity family|continuity pages]] are for. This feels like taking ''Machine Wars'' (which is the opposite kind of sparse: a toyline with virtually no fiction) and rolling it into G2. Sure, they're in the same family, and there are connections between the two, but they're not marketed with the same label, so we don't do it. Before ''Prime'' existed, there were these other forms of media sharing a unique title (that even got the TF-logo lockup treatment!) and covering common ground. Then ''Prime'' showed up, and so far the two labels have not been seen on the same product. To me, that means two franchises.
::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::But... there is no overarching label on the products we have poked into the WFC "Franchise". "Transformers: War for Cybertron" has its own logo which is also on the tie-in comic, and Exodus has its own logo. They're still prequels to TF:Prime. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:33, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::::I guess I just see the "War for Cybertron" in the title of ''Exodus'' as having more meaning than you do. Yeah, Hasbro could've been more blatant if they'd wanted to, but it's still clearly telling the reader it's part of the same deal as the WfC games and comic, without making any reference to ''Prime'' (or vice-versa). I can imagine a situation where the ''Prime'' branding might retroactively subsume WfC, like how the "Wreckers" comic was given the ''Universe'' brand (they say there's another game coming out, after all). But that hasn't happened yet, so in the meantime I say WfC doesn't belong under the ''Prime'' franchise.
::::::::::Anyway, at this point if we don't see eye-to-eye, we probably won't, so I'm going to shut up now.
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:What about the next thing after ''Prime'' that is in the Modern/Aligned continuity? We would have a new disambiguation, like, "Spike (Next Franchise)." and characters that have never been in Prime, like "Ultra Magnus (Prime)." Kind of confusing. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::No it isn't. The idea that WFC/Exodus are part of a big wad of continuity colloquially known as "Prime", and referred to as "Prime" because the "Prime" cartoon is THE core of the whole shebang, and will liekly BE said core for the near future, is not a hard one. It only gets confusing when you start letting obfuscating pedantry in, at which point you're only making more work for no payoff and making things harder for our readers. A trend which seems to keep coming up over and over again, I've noticed... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:09, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::I'm pretty sure I've had my share of "obfuscating pedantry" moments, but I completely agree with Siph on this one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:18, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::For the record, if people really think that using "(WFC)" would be confounding to readers, that's not a decision I'm very invested in. This discussion has ballooned into bigger issues that I ''do'' feel more strongly about, but the parenthetical itself is very take-it-or-leave-it for me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I would at the least support migrating characters who have thus far ''only'' appeared in WFC to the appropriate parenthetical.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:55, 1 March 2011 (EST)
:And move them back if they appear in Prime? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 11:03, 1 March 2011 (EST)
::Yes. I think that would make the most sense to people looking for the characters.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::I am willing to make this compromise for the time being. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 14:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)

==War For Cybertron==
War for cybertron is a relativley new game, but it is a great one. I am kind of new on this website, but to me, it looks like the War For Cybertron title has gotten mixed up with Transformers: Prime, a completley diffrent universe. also, WFC is G1 Canon. All the WFC pages and articles should be labled on G1, MAJOR cleanup is needed. {{unsigned|Holymoses|06:30, March 3, 2011 (EST)}}
:You clearly ''are'' quite new, because we would advise you to read [[Aligned continuity family|this article]] before you start in on this notion. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 06:33, 3 March 2011 (EST)
:In Hasbro's own words: "The TRANSFORMERS brand team would like to confirm that Transformers War for Cybertron video game, Transformers Exodus novel, and the Transformers Prime television show are in the same aligned continuity. Hasbro is creating a single continuity to tell the bulk of our TRANSFORMERS stories going forward." Here's the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/8189/20/ link] to the announcement --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 06:45, 3 March 2011 (EST)
::You aren't completely wrong. The game developers were heavily inspired by G1, and were pretty much making a G1 game as far as they knew. It's just that, like Khajidha said, Hasbro says War for Cybertron is part of the same continuity as Prime, so that's what the wiki goes with. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:00, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Well that still seems weird, since "Prime" has a completley diffrent story, and "Exodus" doesnt connect the two sagas very well. even if its what Hasbro said, i think we should put all this into consideration, Aaron Archer himself said that War for Cybertron was a game set in the G1 Universe. I think its wrong of Hasbro to try and connect the two diffrent Continuities. {{unsigned|Holymoses|09:12, March 4, 2011 (EST)}}
:First of all, when did Aaron Archer say that? Second, Hasbro gets to define what is in each continuity for the simple reason that it is their intellectual property. It may not be to your liking, but it cannot be wrong as they are the ones who determine what is right. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, gonna need a source on that Archer statement. Especially since he's been amongst the ones saying WFC/Exodus is part of the new continuity. Also, weren't a lot of elements in WFC, like Dark Energon, Hasbro mandates from a story bible they supplied the creators (hereby proving that Hasbro's intent was always for it to be part of the new continuity), or am I imagining things again? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:08, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::From what I read about that production bible, it is a result of guys at Hasbro sitting down and "[http://collider.com/roberto-orci-jeff-kline-interview-transformers-prime/75039/ coalescing all the mythologies] that they had institutionally for years. Actually putting it down to paper." It sounds like they were just collecting and not adding new stuff in. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Energon were added ''after'' it was in the game. And what about timing? Orci said Hasbro put together the bible after the movies came out (in mid 2009). The video game came out in mid 2010 with a video game lead time of ??? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::Unless Dark Energon is actually just the new name for Angolmois energy. The name may have been taken from the video game, but the concept could well have been in the production bible before WFC. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:37, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::What a load of supposition and crap. I hereby dub it "crapposition". I can pretty much say that you are completely wrong. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::::[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/05/interview-matt-tieger-of-high-moon-studios-on-transformers/ Matt Tieger said] that High Moon started working on WfC when they shipped their "Bourne" game, which according to the accompanying notes was mid-2008, between the first movie and RotF. [http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/interviewtransformerswarforcybertron2.html This interview] talks up the G1 inspiration and then says the WfC storyline is "a completely original story that we made up at High Moon. We worked closely with Hasbro..." The consistent impression I've gotten from several different interviews is that High Moon started from G1 and then made pitches to Hasbro, which Hasbro would provide feedback on, and eventually there was a game. The only people who I've seen actually talk about the 400-page story-bible are the ''Prime'' creators. And if Orci was being literal when he said the bible was put together "after the movie’s came out", then game development would've indeed started earlier. At the very least, it sounds pretty likely that there was some simultaneous creation.
:::::In the end, the chicken-and-egg question is basically moot because either way, WfC is part of the new deal. It doesn't matter who said the words "Dark Energon" first; it's part of the structure that binds all of the pieces, so that's that. But for nitpicking's sake, Starfield's suppositions aren't off-base from the evidence we have. Siph, if you have additional info that clarifies or contradicts any of that, please share.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::::I, similarly, have found it quite plausible when thinking on the subject to believe that High Moon could have created the idea of Dark Energon, and that Hasbro then said to themselves "We can use THAT!" and put it in the bible. It's certainly outside the realm of possibility, unless you know something we don't, Siph. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 05:24, 5 March 2011 (EST)

:Because nothing whatsoever can change in the millions of years between the WFC era and the Prime cartoon era. And yeah, good luck sourcing that Aaron claim. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
I think that if they were in the game or in Exodus:The Offical History of the War for Cybertron, they should be labled (WFC),but if they poped into the Prime teley-show or comics, they should be labled (Prime).-[ [User:DinoDigger97|DinoDigger97]] 2:11 3 Apil 2011

== Captured-Prey ads ==

One of the things advertised there appears to be a fan-made Megatron min-figure. Seeing as how everybody was upset that the TFSource ad [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive47#TFsource_ad_buy|featured fansproject stuff]], surely, this isn't right either? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 05:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)
:Check the section back up this page titled [[#Project_Wonderful_ads|Project Wonderful ads]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 8 March 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen video game character articles - [X] Scout 1, [X] Scout 2 pages for the same design ==

With the upcoming DOTM games, I thought I should look at the ROTF game articles that were abandoned in 2009 and see if I could do anything for them. I believe it was Derik who made this decision, but I am now wondering if it is necessary to have say [[Aerialbot Scout 1]] and [[Aerialbot Scout 2]], [[Omnibot Scout 1]] and [[Omnibot Scout 2]] (and so on) considering "Scout 1" and "Scout 2" are just the two different colour schemes for these mass produced generic, nameless characters who only differ in terms of textures. Any completed articles on these will have different images, but exactly the same information. Isn't that redundant? Should we perhaps just stick both of each under Aeriabot Scout, Omnibot Scout, Stunticon Scout? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:14, 11 March 2011 (EST)
:According to the articles the two Aerialbot Scouts have different health, primary weapon and secondary weapon ratings. Is that enough for separation? I don't know, but it should be considered before making a decision. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 11 March 2011 (EST)
::I don't even know where those stats came from - I don't believe the person who filled them in originally ever explained. Were they from a website, article or guide book? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:42, 11 March 2011 (EST)

== Found some much needed images, but... ==

I found them on [http://transformersiv.mforos.com/1519135/8979801-transformers-g1-aventuras-y-nostalgias-que-nunca-moriran/ this site], and I don't speak the language (I think it's Spanish) to ask for their permission to use them. The images are covers of the [[Marvel Books]] titles [[Battle at Oil Valley]], [[Summertime Coloring Book]], and [[Super Activity Book]]. That's right we don't even have an article for that last one. They also have page scans of these and other Marvel Books titles. I don't feel right just taking them for our use here and was wondering if someone who spoke the lingo would contact them for us. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 12 March 2011 (EST)
:Nevermind, Google Chrome finally remembered that it had translational abilities. The poster is offering them for download to all and sundry, so he/she can hardly care if we borrow them. I'll probably still insert a link to the main site out of courtesy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:22, 12 March 2011 (EST)
::After looking at them, I realized that they were Steve Stonebreaker's scans. I have contacted him and received permission to use them here. I'll be adding more soon. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 16 March 2011 (EDT)

== Hey, I've got a new user talk page template request... ==
[[Image:Rebirth1 Hardhead and Blurr.jpg|right|thumb|300px|TOO MANY QUOTES]]
Can we have one that reminds folks that every new thing in Transformers that even vaguely reminds you of an old thing in Transformers IS NOT A REFERENCE AND THAT IS NOT HOW REFERENCES WORK AND STOP PUTTING THEM IN THE "TRANSFORMERS REFERENCES" SECTION. Ahem. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:18, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:You mean like [[Template:notareference|this]]? --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:22, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
::Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:30, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:::Brilliant. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:39, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::That's an oldie, but a goodie. Personally, I'm wondering if there's any template that can be set up for the people that just drown episode articles in quotes... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:42, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::I think we'd first need a consensus on how many quotes are appropriate. [[User:JW|JW]] 07:41, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::It's a conversation that needs to be had, I think. You have to take length of the story into account - there are more quotes in a two hour movie than in a twenty five minute episode. I'd put the early cutoff at around five for episodes, though. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 08:00, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I like the idera of a mximum of 5 per 30 minutes (or part thereof) for Episodes & movies, but what would be a good size for comics? I'd say around 3 per issue, but it breaks down with short issues and back up stories (i.e.e most of the Marvel UK exclusive stuff...) [[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 10:19, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'd set a "soft" limit higher for 30-minute episodes {{m-}} around 10 quotes {{m-}} and I'd allow more than that if the episode was particularly well-written or quotable. I don't think there's any need for a low, hard limit, as I don't think lots of quotes hurt the wiki until we get into "quoting the whole darn episode" territory. Heck, in fact, I might favor a policy of ''judging each quote for itself.'' I.e., if a quote is good/noteworthy/illustrative/funny/wadeva, it can be kept, even if there are two dozen other quotes already. Each must stand on its merits, but there would be no hard cap. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yeah, some episodes happen to have a lot of funny/significant/memorable lines, others don't. If we set a hard cap, we might be damning ourselves to a lot of pointless fights over which quotes deserve to be included under the arbitrary limit. I'm more in favor of making a list of criteria that we can point to when we weed lame quotes out.
:::::::::Oh, and I support making a template. ''Prime'' Soundwave is the best character I can think of to use, but Movie Bumblebee or G1 Wreck-Gar would also be appropriate. Or a shot of G1 Soundwave with a tape inside of him? Can't think of a good header, though...
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 11:49, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::I mainly suggested it as a starting point because if it comes down to putting each quote in place based on "which one we like more" the talk pages are going to be absolutely horrible. HOW CAN YOU LEAVE OUT MY FAVORITE QUOTE IT IS SO FUNNY AND RELEVANT. The "5 per 30 minutes" is just a suggestion - obviously an episode that's really funny or poignant can get more. Comics issues we could maybe use pagecount as a starting point. But basically, combine the two ideas. A list of criteria is a good idea, but we also need to avoid having like, thirty quotes for a given story, twelve of which are totally shitty. If we get over five-six quotes, it's time to think about trimming, just because seriously, 90% of TF fiction isn't that goddamned quotable - or there are better places for the quotes. "I don't rock and roll - I burn!" belongs on Inferno's page, not on the episode it appeared in. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:51, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::Fair enough. Just so long as the number is sufficiently "soft" that we don't forget that our goal is high quality, not an arbitrarily low quantity. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:17, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Exactly. Like I said, I think we can also judiciously use key ''character'' quotes on the ''characters''' pages. Some quotes are very episode/story specific, while others provide insight into a character's personality or mindset. I think that's a good way to winnow the chaff, you know? -hx at work not logged in gotta run
::::::::::::::The 5-6 quotes before we start trimming sounds good, especially if some more individual character based quotes can be moved to the character pages. The big problem I keep seeing with quotes is that too many people want to quote an entire scene. If it goes beyond 3 lines it's probably not what we mean by quote here. And even 3 lines is pushing it. These should really be a single line quip or a two line set up and pay off. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:22, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::5 to 6 sounds like a good starting point to me as well. Khajidha makes a good point about the definition of quote. That, along with Hooks' point about using key character quotes on that character's article, should be pointed out on [[Help:Example episode article]], once it exists. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
What about block quotes? The page for Transformers (2007) is full of them. I think there should be a limit on how long the quote can be.--[[User:Megatron Prime|Megatron Prime]] 16:48, 19 May 2011 (EDT)
== Maybe a silly question, can we? ==

Ok, exposing my ignorance here, but isthere a way to search the wiki by alt-mode? If I wanted to know every TF that turns into a Helicopter say? There's not a "helicopter" catagory, so howwould I find them all? Thanks for any help.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:59, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]] covers some characters. There's been a few vague proposals to create a new hierarchy of categories for altmodes, but it would be a lot of work, and it's generally shouted down. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:08, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:I think the current best option if you want to do something like this is TFU.info's Identify section. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 11:00, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

==Grimlock letter==
[[Image:Grimlock letter.jpg|thumb|right]]
I recently acquired this and thought it's exactly the sort of thing we should be covering. I had no idea it even existed until a friend sent it to me and on that thought, should we add letters from Soundwave, Ratchet(?), Dreadwind and Blaster to the Holy Grails? Was there a similar response from the US comic, and do Titan still send these letters out today from Starscream? Enquiring minds want to know. Incidentally, he said he got Tailgate as his free mini-toy. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:31, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
:Good find. A letter from Grimlock is pretty awesome. That should go somewhere. The Letters Page page? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:58, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
::I've added a link from there; I'll type it up verbatim if we think it's justified? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:09, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

== Voice actors by series ==

We have a bunch of categories for voice actors by language, but I was wondering if we should have categories for voice actors by series? Would categories like "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Victory voice actors" be useful? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:27, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

:That could be useful. It'd be better than looking up cast lists and opening up every character page, at least. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:30, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

::Sound like a nice idea to me. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 10:01, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

== "Just Stop" Notice? ==

Do we think there's a role for the following proposed user notice template, for users like Eagc7?

{{messagebox|image_name=War_War_Stop_It.jpg|image_width=225px|width=90%|header=Just Stop|message_text=Please stop editing this wiki. While you haven't done anything ban-worthy (yet), you are not a productive contributor. (The reasons ''why'' are above this notice on your talk page.) So, please, '''just stop.'''}}

Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 14:39, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:If one is created, I love this image for it! --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 15:35, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::It seems a bit rude, but the image would be ''perfect'' if this is made. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 15:45, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:::If this gets phrased differently, I'd support it. Right now, the text's too rude. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:52, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::::I think it is meant to be rude and probably should be rude. This tag is designed to be placed on the talk pages of people who have seemingly ignored the multiple instances of other tags. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:57, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

I'm a little iffy on this proposal. I admit that Eagc7 has a very poor grasp of the English language, but I'm a little uncomfortable with telling a person to leave a site just because of that. If you look over his fiction edits (the ones you can read) the posts he has made are accurate, just...occasionally unreadable. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:02, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
:I'm with SFH. Eagc7's English seems to be all over the place, but there are times when he gets it more or less correctly and only needs minor typo fixes. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:21, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Whether a person's edits are bad enough (and bad enough all the time enough) to ask them to never post again seems like something that shouldn't be in the hands of, well, everybody. Putting a template up that says you're a bad speller or that you're not using Preview enough... that's pretty straight forward. But I dunno if I'm comfortable with giving us all a tool to shame each other off the wiki entirely. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:49, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:In addition, if someone's edits are so bad (and so consistently bad) that they're more of a nuisance than they are helpful, then that person should probably just be gotten rid of, instead of getting the Middle Finger Personified In A Template. As Detour said, yeah, Eagc7's English could use some work, but he does enough good here that I don't think he's completely poison or anything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
I could maybe get behind the idea of a "Stop editing until you've read the complaints on your user page" template for the blissfully unaware people constantly making edits that are being undone as soon as they make them whilst ignoring comments on their user page telling them what they're doing wrong. But a template like THIS, and this sort of behavior in general, is how we end up with trolls that come by and vandalize the wiki on a daily basis for years and years. We could avoid that sort of future headache by just not being all-out douchebags to people even if they're stupid and/or their contributions are annoying. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:15, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:I suppose the only problem with making a "read your talk page" template is that they'll never read it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:24, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::: I like this idea, too. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::Got me there. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:36, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:This will not go well. If someone's a real pest here, ban them. If they're being a pest but not quite that bad yet, notify them on their talkpage with whichever templates are already needed, and then if they don't clean up, ban them. We shouldn't be creating--publicly--an underclass of users. If you're allowed to have an account here, you're allowed to post--otherwise we look scummy. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 19:17, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::This is basically every stereotype of this wiki and its userbase given textbox form. I love it. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 20:33, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

The consensus seems to be against it, and the arguments are all good ones. (Kind of a pity, since the image was so perfect, but...) I withdraw the suggestion. Thanks all for weighing in! [[User:JW|JW]] 20:25, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:It is a good template despite the rudeness, but it is potentially necessary for extreme conditions as a last resort. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Is it possible that we could reuse that image for another template? Perhaps a Final Warning template, letting users know that if they don't cut their shit out, they're gonna get banned. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:42, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
: Clearly it should be used for a "stop edit/revert warring" template. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:32, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

== Our Blogger blog? ==

To me it appears that our blog doesn't have much use. Our twitter sends out links to occasional pages and our facebook is an easy place to congregate and talk about TFs and not take up our talk pages, but the blog hasn't been used in over half a year.

I'm thinking using it to keep track of current trends and such. We could highlight pages that are being worked on, point out users who have been creating/adding a lot to pages (i.e. Geewunling creating minor GI Joe pages, Chris McFeely going crazy with the Japanese food tie-ins). This way an editor or lurker who happens to miss a few days can easily catch up rather than having to sift through the new pages and new files (and even then if a page has just had an entirely new writeup from a stub, it wouldn't show up there).

Any thoughts on this? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:21, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

:I think it would be a good way to draw attention to obscure and/or new stuff on the Wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:46, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
::I think so, too, but there are questions left unanswered if we want to go ahead with this. Who would be given control over the posts? Should it be extra mod duties or instead given to some other veteran editors? If so, how many? Would we want weekly updates or something with less frequency? Overall, who is in the current position to grant other users the power to add posts. I can see this as a useful too, but like many things on this wiki, we need to come up with some sort of procedure before it comes to fruition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:33, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

==TFwiki in the past week==
Could someone tell me why the TFwiki has been down/inaccessible for most of the time in the past week? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:04, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:I would wager "massive spikes in traffic, as DotM stuff hits," which has happened before.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::I thought traffic wouldn't be a likely cause since the third movie is still over a month away. Guess I was wrong. Thanks! [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:27, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:::There's at least some clamor now that the toys are out there.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:46, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::::Technical explanation or non-technical? Traffic HAS picked up a bit, the wiki hardware (such as it is) is slightly overtaxed, and we need to start doing some math on what we can separate into other servers, and how much it'll cost to do so.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:15, 13 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::Cowboy time. We've moved the application server and cache to another box, and synced over the contents. If anything's missing, we can try to sync it over from the old webserver, but it wouldn't be off by more than a few minutes, so here's hoping that we're back in business!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:43, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::No wonder the connection becomes smooth again recently. Nice Works!! --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:45, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Yeah, I'd noticed that the site was back to normal. Thanks for the hard work. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:52, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::Thanks for fixing our wiki! [[User:JW|JW]] 07:15, 18 May 2011 (EDT)

== Eagc7's movie comic section edits ==

Lately Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is good. However, Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is bad. I know he tries, but whenever he does this sort of thing, he just ends up creating work for somebody else to clean up, and frankly, it's easier to write stuff from scratch than it is to fix somebody's spelling & grammar, as well as trying to make the text fit the tone and style of the paragraphs surrounding it (which is important considering the Foundation comics take place during the other Movie prequel comics). I haven't read Foundation and Rising Storm, [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eagc7 so I can't fix all of this myself], but that seems like a fair bit of work to fix at a time when the wiki was experiencing random downtime and BotCon is rapidly approaching (meaning a good chunk of our regular editors will not be able to edit much, and in any case would be updating stuff about/from BotCon). Like I said, I know he's trying, and he's getting much better than he used to be, but... maybe he should leave fiction edits to the professionals. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:27, 18 May 2011 (EDT)
:Take it up with him via his Talk Page or the E-mail a User link. If there's really a stylistic problem, then we need a Style Guide for new users to reference.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:04, 19 May 2011 (EDT)

==Page views==
Where have they gone? I believe that they have disappeared from down the pages since the move a few weeks ago. Can they be put back? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:09, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
: I don't recall pageviews... What in specific are you talking about? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:12, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::I guess [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Popularpages popular pages]? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::Yeah those, how often a page has been visited. I kinda liked keeping tabs on relative popularity in pages (like how Mayumi and Shinichi ''never'' lost their 2:1 view ratio). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:24, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::The broken popular pages has apparently been a thing lately, as I noticed Abates was removing and re-adding the link to [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]] earlier this month. Maybe he knows more about it? --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 18:41, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::No more than anyone else. I noticed it was gone and removed it from the template, but then it came back when we did the move so I readded it. I guess it got removed again, possibly for performance reasons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:58, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::::If I had to make a poorly-educated guess, the pageview thing sounds exactly like one of the many things I had to remove from Shortpacked.com to keep it from lagging so so badly. Lots of neat little things like page tracking and stuff like that used to be on there, but they were more trouble, resources-wise, than they were worth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I didn't change anything, but I generally make it a point to keep away from the Mediawiki software config, for fear of breaking that which I don't understand. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 13:07, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
::::::::May have been Scout I guess? Looks like [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDisableCounters $wgDisableCounters] got turned on at some point anyway. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:02, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Wait, that WAS me. $wgDisableCounters is supposed to be off for squid-cached installations anyway, since it doesn't actually work when you add a cache. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 21:26, 12 June 2011 (EDT)

== Why is Melissa from Kiss Players on the same Page as Marissa Faireborn from G1? ==

I know they are some how connected ,but i see the two as different as G1 Starscream is to Animated Starscream ,maybe the same history ,but a little different.--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Michael Alex Kawa]] 10:43, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
:They are related in the same way that Orion Pax is related to G1 Optimus Prime. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 10:51, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
: Marissa = Marissa. Same continuity and everything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:02, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

== I don't know if this was what you are looking for when you asked for Kiss Players radio play translations ,but i hope this helps . ==

I found this on Youtube cause I LOVE Melissa and noticed in that Holy Grail thingy that you guys needed Kiss Players radio play translations .I hope this helps ,even if it doesn't it is still pretty cool and CUTE .I did not make it so that is noted .Here is the link so you guys can go and look to see if it what is needed ,it is the only one i can find ,if it helps i will try to find more .[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZvUg2c649Y]
--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 18:25, 2 June 2011 (EDT)

I also found this site ,it gives a brief description of the radio play ,again i hope this helps .[http://www.toyvey.com/kisskiss/radioplay/index.html]--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 14:32, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
:I haven't looked at the material myself yet (I'm afraid it'll make me have to clean myself until I bleed to get the stain out) but if it's legit, then thank you very, VERY much. This stuff needs to be cataloged to serve as a warning to future generations. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 07:25, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

== The multiverse ==
So, at BotCon, Aaron Archer declared the Aligned continuity separate from the old, more meta multiverse. How does everyone want to approach this? Separate the aligned information about Primus, Unicron and the members of the 13, or keep it together for easy access and lack of confusion just as one article covers the various versions of the Matrix, or Energon, or the AllSpark? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 05:06, 6 June 2011 (EDT)
:Wait for Japan to release some piece of fiction with Prime as part of the Multiverse, then ignore him with a clear conscience. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:05, 29 June 2011 (EDT)
::Huh. I never realized until now that Japan even had the Multiverse. I guess because they don't have as many universes. And they don't have collectors' club fiction. I vaguely knew there was crazy dimension hopping in Alternity, but I figured that was its own thing. But yup, it's right there on the Alternity page. Something about Hasbro-licensed fiction and Takara-licensed fiction sharing one big happy multiverse seems very, very weird to me. Anyway, I'll put an Alternity stub on the [[Multiverse]] page. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:55, 29 June 2011 (EDT)

== Moving from Wikia ==

Hello guys, can anyone give me some advice about how to leave Wikia? I mostly need advice about easily moving content. I found that Wikia provides a database dump as an XML file with all page content except files, and with the page histories. I really need to have the page histories. I installed MediaWiki on my PC for testing, with EasyPHP for the database, and importing the XML file actually doesn't work. It says "Import failed: Loss of session data. Please try again." So I guess I set up my database too quickly and forgot some things. This was just for quick testing after all. Did you follow that template for moving, or something else? I'd really appreciate any advice and help from you! Cheers. [[User:Klow|Klow]] 07:36, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:Right out of the gate, you need to go over EVERY page you download before you go live, because Wikia inserted code that provides linkbacks to Wikia in them, meaning your pages will be providing THEM with hits. I do not know exactly what process is involved, but it's a scumfuck move of theirs that you should be aware of. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:18, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
::Nice to know, thanks. But what about what I mentioned above? How do I start and all? [[User:Klow|Klow]] 17:46, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:::A helpful resource for leaving Wikia is the [http://awa.shoutwiki.com/ Anti-Wikia Alliance site], which has useful info on departing from Wikia. The "loss of session data" usually means that you just have to try again. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:02, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:I'm just the server architecture guy, so I can't help with the XML import, but let me warn you right now, Mediawiki for a moderate-traffic site is a PIG. Get a server geek to help you out, as we've got a buttload of cache, and STILL have performance issues from time to time. It's all stuff I can probably fix, if I ever have the free time to dedicate to the problem, but it's definitely a big old pain in the rear. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 08:27, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
::Shoutwiki has been down for some time now, so the Anti-Wikia Alliance can't really help... :/ McFly, you mean I shouldn't stick to Mediawiki? [[User:Klow|Klow]] 07:23, 23 June 2011 (EDT)
:::I mean that you should make sure that whoever you've got really knows how to tweak your wiki installation to stand up to the traffic. Wikia is terrible at a great many things. Providing high-availability Mediawiki service to their userbase is NOT one of them.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 12:15, 24 June 2011 (EDT)

== Fiction Header Sprawl ==

[[Image:Proposal section headers.png|thumb]]
Our fiction sections (particularly for movie characters) feature a gob-smackingly large number of headers (apparently one for each miniseries.)

This can make it difficult to tell, as one's reading, is the next section is a new continuity or continues from the old one.

I propose a '''<tt><nowiki>{{cntd}}</nowiki></tt>''' template that could be used to mark fiction headers which continue from the previous section. Proposed markup follows:
===''Transformers'' 2007===
Mojo was a bling'd puppy.
<nowiki>{{cntd}}</nowiki>
===Revenge of the Fallen===
Mojo's got a bitch
In the above example the ROTF section would be marked by a "continued..." as in the image at right. (It's a CSS preceeding-content declaration. It could just as easily be an arrow, and indent, graying-back the header, a color, etc.)

The example at right is clumsy, but I thought I'd throw it out to see if anyone thought the '''idea''' had merit. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:56, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
:I'm seeing a flaw in this, in particular with movie fiction, since there are events in-between films that don't necessarily mesh with the movies themselves. Likewise, G1 characters popping up in BW fiction, where it seemingly continues both Marvel G1 and Sunbow G1. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 08:32, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
[[Image:Rs-lastpannel.jpg|thumb]]
::That is a flaw which arises from the way we structure our fiction sections.
::The IDW DOTM adaption, for instance, makes several slight tweaks to the story-- presumably to better fit its ongoing plans for tie-in comics. Thus 'Rising Storm' should ''not'' be followed by the DOTM movie... it should be followed by the DOTM movie '''adaption''' (See pic at right, which explicitly declares this.)
::There have historically been problems with this-- we didn't want lots of redundant sections in character bios, the 2007 adaption dumped most of the Quatar action despite these scenes obviously occurring in their continuity... etc. So there was a hodge-podge "let's make only ONE section for each movie..." approach adapted.
::That's not getting into how cludgy the mini-derived section titles are. Scenes in ''Foundation'' and ''Defiance'' interleave with one another, making them virtually impossible to properly wikify under the existing section-title bodge-up. What we ''really'' need are sections like 'Era of the Primes' 'Before the War' 'Exile in Space' al sitting under an "IDW Comics Continuity" header.
::(Why the hell the Titans books are listed in the ''middle'' of the IDW miniseries escapes me.)
::Whatever, our headers-- particularly for movie comics-- are broken. Above is one suggestion to render them less-so. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:47, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
:::I can definitely get behind something to simplify our header layout for the movie characters - I actually proposed something similar years ago, shortly after ROTF came out, which if I recall right basically amounted to "describe the movies first, then subsequent to them, do a section for each continuity" - IDW all in one, Titan all in one, and so on, rather than the frustrating, fragmented attempted-chronological order we use now. It just about worked for TF1, but after ROTF, things have just gotten more and more messy. However, I will spit ''blood'' if we turn into Wookieepedia and start with those rubbish "In-fiction description of time period" headers. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 08:53, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
::::Hrm in the what now? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:01, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::He means header titles like 'Era of the Primes' which describe a fictional time period. I can agree that those aren't a very good idea for us, given that such eras don't exist across all continuities in a continuity family. Trying to blend the various continuities in such a way implies they're more similar than they are. McFeely's idea of putting the films together, then having section for each of the other continuities, makes more sense for the way Transformers fiction is handled continuity-wise. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 14:54, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::I'm fine with Chris's idea or maintaining the current status quo. I am however, adamantly against time period sections. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:03, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, I'm thinking McFeely's proposal has the least problems when it comes to sorting messy fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:08, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Took a bit of a poke around to see if that old proposal was still around, and [[User:Chris_McFeely/ROTF_proposal|restored it]]. [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive38|Here's]] what some people thought at the time. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:12, 8 July 2011 (EDT)

== Uploading of pngs ==

I wonder whether a warning when someone tries to upload a png would help. By the looks, taking the 'png' extension out of [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgFileExtensions Manual:$wgFileExtensions] (Is Scout still handing MediaWiki configuration?) will cause the site to display a warning which you then have to continue through to upload the image. It's possible that people will just click through without reading it like with the "this is a huge file" warning, but it seems like it'd be worth a try. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:32, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
:What's wrong with PNGs? I was under the impression that they worked. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 13:28, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
::Pngs use a compression method that is not well suited to screencaps, so a png screencap will be unnecessarily large compared to a jpg copy of the same screencap. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:59, 19 July 2011 (EDT)
:::I've made the appropriate changes. Let's see if it makes a difference. (I doubt it.) --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:57, 3 August 2011 (EDT)

== MonacoBook Skin ==

Hello. Dota 6 here! I was wondering if the MonacoBook skin is a custom MediaWiki skin or can you actually download it from somewhere? --[[User:Dota 6|Dota 6]] 21:11, 29 July 2011 (EDT) Dota 6 signing out!

== What gives ==

Okay, I can see that maybe you don't find my jokes funny. I can accept that, but to simply "undo" my first edit to the wiki without comment is rude. Obviously I am not a vandal, I am not trying to cause harm. I have been reading this wiki for a few weeks, and I simply came to a page filled with ''terrible'' captions. Captions so bad that one actually asked for someone to think of something better. [http://tfwiki.net/w2/index.php?title=Gold_Plastic_Syndrome&diff=prev&oldid=614367 This is the edit.] Maybe you don't see that as an improvement, but surely it is no worse than what was there. Even if you can't stomach all of them, surely you could simply fix one or two, instead of the entire edit. Surely you could at least leave a reasoning in the summary, or a message on my talk page saying "Thanks for the edit, but that isn't quite our style" or some-such. What is the point of having a wiki if you are simply going to smack new editors away without even having the respect to mention why? I understand that fighting vandalism is a hard and full-time job, but that is no reason to people with good intentions poorly. [[User:JohnnyMrNinja|JohnnyMrNinja]] 04:21, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
:Read this:[[Transformers_Wiki:Caption]]. Simply put, you need to do some actual work around here before messing with captions. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 04:33, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
:Also, don't take it personally you weren't told why it was reverted. There's too many reverts in a day to bother to explain them all and it seems most anons and users-for-a-day simply don't care enough about their edit either to want to know why it was reverted, if they notice at all. If one cares, one can always ask - an explanation is guaranteed to be given. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 05:59, 30 July 2011 (EDT)

==Bot request==
And we get a bot to change out all the instances of "Jusco" with "[[JUSCO]]", the proper capitalization for the stores? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:02, 1 August 2011 (EDT)
:There din't seem to be that many, so I went ahead and did 'em manually. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:45, 1 August 2011 (EDT)
::Do we still have a bot? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:29, 3 August 2011 (EDT)
:::...Um, I thought we had [[User:Deceptitran|your bot]]? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 20:44, 3 August 2011 (EDT)
::::And [[User:DNAVI]]. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:34, 3 August 2011 (EDT)
:::::Oh, wait. DNAVI's owner thinks he's pretty much done with this place. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:36, 3 August 2011 (EDT)
::::::Decptitran's database structure got trashed when my site got deleted. ...I should probably fix it dome day. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:46, 3 August 2011 (EDT)

== Interviews on External links ==

Flashback's recent plugging of his site's interview have struck my curiosity, what exactly is the standard for adding interviews to the external links on real-life people's articles? Anyone who's got an interview can add one, or do they have to be special interviews? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:53, 3 August 2011 (EDT)
:If the interview adds relevant and interesting information to the person, I think it's ok in the external links section. If it's supporting a specific fact, then the reference format should be used.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:54, 3 August 2011 (EDT)
:I think they should be primarily about (or at least have substantial coverage of) the subject's Transformers work. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:27, 3 August 2011 (EDT)
::I think that should be the case too, unless the real-life person is tough to find any information on. I recently added an interview to Marlene Aragon's article that has nothing to do with Transformers, but does provide some information as to her age and her 'career' in voice acting. It wouldn't be interesting for anyone with a more prominent role in Transformers (or anything else), but since this is about everything the page can provide on her, it should stay. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:20, 4 August 2011 (EDT)
:::That's interesting, it's the same reason I linked to an archived Allspark interview for Elaine To. There was no other information I could find about her anywhere else. But in regard to Flashback and his Realmcast interviews... I didn't listen to any of them in their entirety, but I listened to a third of the Michael Bell one, which can be summed up as both interviewer and interviewee complaining about the Michael Bay films daring to make the original voice cast audition for roles and then only using Cullen, and IDW's declining to go with that All Hail Megatron motion comic... So I'm really not certain these links really add anything other than a plug for Flashback's site. But if anyone else feels like listening to them and proving me wrong, go ahead, I don't mind. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:36, 4 August 2011 (EDT)

== Gif uploads blocked? ==

I keep getting a <tt>".gif" is not a permitted file type. Permitted file types are jpg, jpeg, ppt, ogg, ico, svg, ogg, psd, ttf, pdf, wav.</tt> when I try to upload a .gif.

Dis someone trip a flag in the settings, or have I just missed something? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:18, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:I think that's an unintended side effect from the PNG ban. McFeely should be able to fix it. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:30, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
::We banned PNG's? But they're occasionally useful!
::Can't we ban people who upload PNG's instead. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:39, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:::You can read a little upwards on it under "Uploading of pngs". I'm not sure what has been programmed to prevent PNG uploads, though. You'd have to ask McFeely. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:45, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
::::I'm guessing you're meaning to type "McFly", not "McFeely," because I haven't a clue. /:) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 17:37, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
:::Gah, $wgStrictFileExtensions must be set true. I only intended for my request to display it as a warning rather than preventing uploading of them altogether (you know, like when you upload an image which is too big). I guess MediaWiki doesn't have enough options to do what I was suggesting. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:28, 13 August 2011 (EDT)
::::Bitch, bitch, bitch. (It's fixed, provided someone confirms that much. Drop any complaints on my Talk page, I've got a watchlist set on it.) --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:46, 14 August 2011 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-08-03T15:57:30Z

McFly: /* Uploading of pngs */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-07-19T17:28:03Z

McFly: /* Uploading of pngs */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


==Didn't we have a Transformers Appearances/References in Other Media page?==
I could have sworn we did, mentioning stuff like Family guy etc. If we don't have such a page, would it be allowed to be created? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 11:53, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:Unless it's officially sanctioned by Hasbro, no, we do not mention Transformer appearances in other media. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:54, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:: If it ever existed, it would have been destroyed with fire in about 30 seconds. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:46, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::: Of course, if we did have such a page, we could use it as a lighting rod, keep anons from adding something to Soundwave's page every time Seth Green says the word "transformers." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:28, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Of course, NO. Discussion over. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Discussion not quite over. If the unofficial nature of the topic is the reason why it is not allowed, then there are several articles that already exist that are pushing boundaries on the wiki. I would have thought that the biggest problem would be it's size.[[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 09:26, 20 December 2010 (EST)
:::::Yeah, that'd be the other big reason. There's so many such references it would be impossible to keep track of them all. It would also involve making sure what's added there is actually a TF reference. And given all the Toms, Dicks and Harrys that'll come out of the woodwork to add such stuff, that's going to be more trouble than not having a page. Best not to get a larger headache for the sake of reducing a smaller one. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:44, 20 December 2010 (EST)

=="Knockoff warning" for toy sections?==
Just something that occurred to me... as I skimmed this page http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 and looked at alllllll the "could be mistaken for real and paid stupid money for" knockoffs... is there any objection to some form of link to this in the relevant toy sections? Sadly, the page lacks a "jump to" feature of any kind, but alerting people to the potential danger of dropping several hundred on what they think is a genuine Defensor box set... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:50, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:I think it skirts the line with our "we don't really discuss knockoffs" policy, but on the other hand, yeah, it's a useful bit of information, almost to the point where we could stand to have a special page about ''these specific knockoffs''. I am not opposed to adding a link to that site, no, as long as it's got a massive and specific caveat attached to it (maybe even with a special template box thing ("A Prime Problem"-themed perhaps?)). Hell, maybe the highendtfs people would be willing to throw up navigation in exchange for the inevitable deluge of hits - anyone got contact info for the owner? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 09:11, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::It's worth noting that there are some very well-done Henkei seekers knockoffs now, too. The really expensive ones even, like Thundercracker. Their sections could use warnings as well. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:56, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::Are they in knockoff PACKAGING that is meant to look like the real thing? That's the really tricky part. G1 MIB shit is much, much more expensive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:27, 19 December 2010 (EST)
::::Yes, they are: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/buyer-beware-update-on-ko-henkei-seekers/20380/ -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:03, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::I am not sure I want to attach more template boxes to pages as is. Especially over something like knockoffs. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:55, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::I'd ''thought'' about a template, but... ehn. I think a simple link under the TFU.info (or whatever), perhaps with a bolded "'''Knockoff alert'''" text. Like...

::::*''[http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 '''Knockoff alert''': More information on packaged imitations of this toy at HighendTFs.com]''

:::Thoughts? This would ONLY cover stuff that is in packaging meant to deceive you by looking as real as they can get it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:05, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::::I could agree with that. This is a step beyond your standard knock off crap, some notice might be appropriate.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:44, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::::I think it is a good idea to have it, since it is useful. This is different from putting info of some KO or unlicensed products on the page. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:49, 19 December 2010 (EST)

== Extension:Oversight ==

Quite a few times I've seen admins delete and undelete pages to clean out bad revisions. Why they do this I have no idea, since we have [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Oversight the Oversight extension] installed.

Perhaps we should look into granting some people "oversighter" access? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 05:09, 25 December 2010 (EST)
:I've just noticed that deleting and then restoring pages in the manner mentioned above has the side effect of resetting a page's page views stats, so that's another point in favour of the Oversight extension. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:40, 11 January 2011 (EST)

== Wikipedia, revisited ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#The_.22Campaign_of_Deletion.22_against_the_Transformers_Wiki_Project_by_NotARealWord_and_TFWiki.net]

Just in case anyone's interested. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 10:54, 5 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log back in)
:NEWSFLASH: Nobody cares. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:21, 5 January 2011 (EST)

== Captcha to prevent spambots? ==

Is there any way we could implement captcha to account creation to prevent the spambot problem we're having now? I've seen other wikis use that measure. Maybe also disable new page creation by anons? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:56, 6 January 2011 (EST)
:We already have CAPTCHA implemented on the account creation service. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 13:09, 6 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log in)
::Never mind, then! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:30, 6 January 2011 (EST)

== Real world events by day Category ==

These of course comprise every date of the year. However, I notice recently people have been adding fictional events to these dates. That basically invalidates the Category, since it's no longer comprised of only real-world events. The fictional events should be moved out into another section, or the category name should be changed to "Events by day". Thoughts? --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:01, 9 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree with changing to "Events by day". I would also support having separate fictional and real world sections on the pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:38, 9 January 2011 (EST)

== Project Wonderful ads ==

Um, guys, I found there [http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/53018-1293943633.gif Non-official products] in the ads of CapturedPrey. I know the small ads are showing up randomly (and may not be controllable since we can't regulate them), but I think it is still need to be reported here. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 01:04, 16 January 2011 (EST)
: I don't mind them in the non-permanent ads. TFSource used them all the time in their ads before we made them permanent sponsors. It was only when we made them a permanent sponsor did we ask to make them free of third-party product. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:57, 16 January 2011 (EST)

== Games <strike>fiction</strike> ==

Okay, now that [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] has flooded the character pages with stubs for 30 years worth of crappy Transformers games, can we reconsider how the Games sections are treated? I really don't think in-universe fiction descriptions are the way to handle it. [[War for Cybertron]] may've had a plot, but the majority of TF games are more in the vein of "hit things until they stop coming". A fiction section makes even less sense for games where the character selection is variable. ''"[[Hardhead (G1)#Transformers:_The_Headmasters|Hardhead]] may (or may not) have been present at this battle. Or this one. Or this..."'' Ditto for generic drone soldiers. Isn't there a way to address the games without trying to craft a sensical fiction for them? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:46, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree. The games should appear as merchandise on all relevant characters pages, but there is no need for a fiction write up for most games on those same pages. A generic write up on the game page should suffice. Something like "An Autobot warrior participated in a battle...", with a character box listing all potential "Autobot warriors" (aka playable characters). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Moving games to merchandise sounds awful. It would result in amazing amounts of lost information. I have no idea what doing that would solve. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:44, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::I think it depends on the game - for example in the ROTF console game, while you CAN play as multiple characters, the game provides a suggested one for you. IMO, that's who "actually" did the stuff depicted in the game (and the opposing side's campaign generally suggests it as well). When you can just pick from a half-dozen dudes and it doesn't matter, then maybe a brief summary of the game's plot and a note. "Jerkwagon was one of many Autobots involved in blah blah plot synopsis bluh. NOTE: Such-and-such game allowed players to choose multiple protagonists, including Jerkwagon." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 13:19, 25 January 2011 (EST)
I agree that Games should be their own section -- there's certainly enough of them, and they should be treated differently than keychains and what-not. But I think an out-of-universe description of the games would be better in most cases. Instead of having to write vague text like ''"As Ultra Magnus searched for the truth behind Optimus Prime's death, he battled Trypticon in a game of death and suffering."'', which is about all the plot I could wrangle out of [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy|Convoy no Nazo]] and tells you virtually nothing, we could write something more informative, like ''"Trypticon is the boss of Stage 10."'', and describe what actually happens in the game instead of trying to make it sound like believable fiction. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:29, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::My personal view on the matter is, from a character's page, I should be able to find EVERY place that character has appeared. And when we do list guys having an appearance when they're most likely an animation error in the far-background of an episode, I don't think there's any excuse to NOT list an appearance of a character wherever he might appear, including board and video games. Is that a lot of work? Yeah. But beneath all the jokes that make this place so great, this is still an encyclopedia, and purposely leaving out information out of an encyclopedia is wrong. Though I think Hooper X has the right idea... I doesn't have to be the most super-extensive write up. Heck, I was even going to suggest just having a link saying "See Return of Convoy article" or something like that. Also: I apologize if I had started getting very sloppy last night, but looking back, it was like 5 in the morning by the time I finished up. Yikes. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:10, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::I totally agree that the games should be dealt with on the character pages. I'm just looking for an option other than a completely in-fiction description. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 15:14, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::: The first idea that comes to mind is having a subsection called "Gameplay" or something like that for each game write-up, something that would be similar to a note? Though really, my main solution for stuff like that has been, up to this point, to just stick a couple of notes in the game write-up, like on [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s page. I'll keep on trying to think up other solutions though... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:26, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::Storylinks already serve as that, so what's the point of another link? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:47, 25 January 2011 (EST)

== Fiction order guide? ==

I've been over the Style guides a few times trying to find if a page like this already exists, but it doesn't look like it. I'll be the first to admit that when adding in new fiction/game subsections to a character's article, I sometimes confuse and probably put them out of order. So I've been wondering if a page that lists every fictional work and game in the proper order of each other would be a good idea? On one hand, it seems like an ABSURD amount of work for a style guide, one that would have to be CONSTANTLY updated as new things come out. On the other hand, it would be very handy to have a list to reference for character pages. Especially because it can get VERY frustrating trying to hunt down which book/cartoon/whatever came first in the same year. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about, here's an example I quickly put together, using the [[Cheetor (BW)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]] pages as reference.

When listing a character's media appearances, use this sorting order:
*Fiction
**Generation 1 Marvel Comics continuity
**Generation 1 S.T.A.R.S. pack-in flyers
**Generation 1 cartoon continuity
**Generation 1 Kid Stuff Talking Story Books
**Generation 1 Big Looker Story Books
**Generation 1 Ladybird Books continuity
**''Transformers in 3-D''
**''Transformers PD Type'' comic
**''Comic Bom Bom G-2'' comic
**Beast Wars First wave toy bios
**Beast Wars Cartoon continuity
***Dawn of Future's Past
***''Beast Wars'' cartoon
***Fast Action Battlers toyline
***3H ''Tales from the Beast Wars'' comics
***IDW ''Beast Wars'' comics
***''Transformers Legends'' anthology
***''Beast Machines'' cartoon
***''Beast Machines'' toy bio
***''Universe'' comic
***''Beast Wars Metals'' comic
***Beast Wars ''Henkei! Henkei!'' pack-in comic
**Generation 1 Dreamwave comics continuity
**''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''
**''Transformers/G.I. Joe''
**Generation 1 IDW comics continuity
**''Hearts of Steel''
**''Music Label''
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' (pack-in comic)
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' Bun Bun manga
**Alternity
**''Robot Heroes'' comic
**''Universe'' cartoon
**Wings of Honor

Is this a good idea? Would anyone actually like to see this kind of thing, or would I just be putting a whole bunch of work into something we don't need? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:28, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:We do need standardization of section names. The section order, however, depends on order in which the character appeared in those continuities in the real world. Then the subsections are ordered by the fictional chronology. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:35, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::No wonder I get confused by this fiction order thing. @_@ I guess I might just be one of those people that will never get the hang of some of these things. And yeah, the section names was definitely something else I wanted to tackle, since I've seen at times no less than four different ways to refer to a certain media. I sometimes have to check the storylinks at the end to be sure it's all part of the same story! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:45, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Note that, within a continuity, flashbacks and time travel can mean that experiential fictional chronology for one character requires a different order of headings than for another. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:16, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::In regards to standardization, I have an idea. What if we create a list of headers (kept on this page perhaps) used on Optimus Prime (G1)'s page (probably has the greatest number of different headers), use that as our initial standards list, then update it as we find other headers or decide to change the existing standards? Once we think we've covered the majority of possibilities, we could move it to a help page and make it official policy. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:49, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::::I put together [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a sandbox along these lines]] a couple of years ago. It hasn't been updated in quite a while, and I'm not sure it was ever actually complete, and it was the subject of [[User_talk:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a bit of debate]]... but there it is, for what it's worth. (Also, I support standardization of headers, but I've run into [[Talk:Ricochet_(Headmasters)#Header|some]] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive22#Section_naming_conventions|opposition]] over the nitty-gritty before, so best of luck.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 06:11, 8 February 2011 (EST)

== Foreign name reorganization ==

Is there any chance we could consider moving the foreign names somewhere else in the article other than at the top? We've already established a new standard for episodes, but characters could stand to have their names moved to their own dedicated section, likely under "Notes". There, we could add things like kana and Cyrillic forms of names not different from the English version. Opinions? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 4 February 2011 (EST)
:I'm in favor of it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:33, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::All things considered, since this is (mostly) an english-centric wiki when it comes to stuff, the foreign names do come off as being interesting trivia more than anything else. I'm in favour of this too. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:37, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I'm fine with where they are now, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:39, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I can see the logic in them being moved down to notes. You've got an in-universe profile, then a bunch of out-of-universe names, then the in-universe fiction section. The only argument I have against it is that I'm used to seeing the foreign names at the top. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:05, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::If it can be moved downward (to the first entry of the notes section or a new section after the notes section) instead of being on the top, MOVE it. Originally, I'm fine withe where they are {{m-}} but that would be a character with fewer foreign names. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 19:55, 4 February 2011 (EST)
Any further opinions on this? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:36, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:What about cases where some of the extra names at the top are English, e.g. Omni Productions names, or preliminary or nicknames? Would they remain at the top or become notes too? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:29, 21 February 2011 (EST)
::The Malay dub still technically counts as foreign in my mind. Nicknames should be integrated in the introduction (or notes section), and preliminary names should have been in notes in the first place, since they aren't the characters' "real names" in any sense. Further elaboration of the preliminary names better suits the notes section, anyway. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:43, 21 February 2011 (EST)
Japanese names are often for a character in a slightly different continuity. Like "Fire Convoy" is a Car Robots character and "Optimus Prime" is an RID character, but they share the same page. Or "Flame Convoy" is a Galaxy Force character but "Scourge" is a Cybertron character. In that case they should have the Japanese name up top. The names that are just different language versions of the English character can go on bottom. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:18, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:... no. ''Cybertron'' and ''Galaxy Force'' are NOT different stories (Takara officially put GF back in the same timeline as the prior two series), and the ''RID/CR'' split is a unique case. In neither case should the names go up top. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:44, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::They are slightly different continuities. Galaxy Force doesn't have the [[Omega Frequency]] for example. And the Grand Black Hole is different. And the [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity]] is different. [[Blaster (G1)|Broadcast]] never became Twincast in English. I think Japanese names are a special case and deserve to be on top since Japanese toyline & fiction continuity is always slightly separate. But I can hit the "end" key on the keyboard easy enough. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::Every single foreign language version of something is technically a slightly different continuity, strictly due to the nature of translation. This is not a arena in which Galaxy Force is unique. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== Commercial Appearances section ==

Alright, so I plan later on to start going through characters' pages and add in a "Commercial Appearances" section where it applies (sorry, I can't this weekend... homework to do!). Several characters already have this section and a lot of these commercials have nice short animations or other interesting characterizations and tidbits that I think they bear to be included in the characters' pages. Although, much like the Games sections, I'll only be able to marginally help by adding in the section itself to let people know that there's work to be done on a character's page... MY computer is so incredibly shitty that I can't even play videos off youtube. D:

But anyways, the reason I'm bringing this up here is because before I get started, I'd like to discuss what kind of format we want for this section, so it can be done right the first time around. Obviously, where it applies, stuff like indicating who the voice actor for the character makes sense, but should the write-up be in-universe or not? Since commercials fluctuate between using a short animation telling a mini-story and just being a straight-up commercial saying "buy this toy!" should a combination of both in-universe and out-of-universe description be used? And should we count the parts where the kids brandish their action figures and talk for the character as dialog spoken by the character? That's all the questions on the subject I can really think of for now... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:12, 6 February 2011 (EST)
:I would write up the animation segments in-universe so long as they're unique to the commercial (i.e. not just recycled footage from one of the cartoons). Anything else that's notable enough could qualify for an out of universe note. But I wouldn't bother with recycled animation or the kids talking for the figures. That doesn't qualify as fiction to me.
:In regards to your inability to view the commercials, would it help if you could download them in some fashion and then watch them offline? Maybe burn the videos to a DVD disc? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:43, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, any clips taken from pre-existing mediums would be redundant from those scenes being already covered in other sections on that character's page. Personally though, I'm still on the fence about the kids talking for the figures... I find it comparable to botcon script readings in a way... People just talking out loud for a character without any accompanying animation... I'm prone to be swayed either way. As for me viewing the commercials themselves, my spring break is a week from now. I might have access to a better computer then, but otherwise I'll just be putting in information already available on the wiki to the appropriate pages throughout the week, I guess. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 17:53, 6 February 2011 (EST)

==How to resolve monster debates?==
[[User:-Blackout-]]'s recent meltdown over being prevented from editing [[Goldbug (IDW)]] has made me think again about how policy/content discussions tend to go on this wiki. It's a big part of why I haven't been around since last summer: I found myself perpetuating these miles-long debates that few cared to read, everyone was irritated by, and most importantly ''were impossible to resolve.''

That Goldbug article is a sterling example. Right now, people are talking about it as if the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1|giant]] [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2|debate]] had resolved in favor of the current setup, so changing the article at this point is taboo because it "was dealt with already." But that's not how it went at all. Blackout's dickishly unilateral edit-war was definitely the Wrong Way to reopen this, but it's also wrong to pretend that we had achieved consensus or closure on the issue.

At [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2#Breaking down the problem|the end of the debate]], I had restated the case for [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Goldbug (G1)|my "Goldbug (G1)" sandbox]], which is definitely different from the current setup, and 6 other people declared support for it while 2 objected at length. But the objectors were also against the current setup: Jeysie wanted the toy gone, and Derik wanted... something inscrutable and Deriky. Combining those numbers with the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1#Vote Tally|premature vote]] that had been taken earlier (and adjusting for the voters who changed their minds by the end), I count:

Sandbox: 8 
Sandbox with modifications: 3 
Current page: 7 
Current page without the toy: 2

That's not consensus. That's deadlock. In fact, there were fewer votes to keep the page as-is than there were to change it in some fashion. The current setup didn't win out in terms of votes, logic, precedent, or any other measure: It won out because it was what happened to be there when the debate died of exhaustion.

So we're stuck with an awkward page that most people want to be different, encased in concrete forevermore. I don't see any way out of this situation, and I've watched the same principle play out with other debates too many times. At the very least, I wonder if it would be helpful to have a Template:Deadlock that we could slap on inconclusive debates (with a picture of [[Drift (G1)|Deadlock]], natch) so people know the true state of things.

Taking that idea further, maybe it could come with a period of enforced moratorium – say, two weeks – followed by a revote and/or a formalized "final statements" opportunity? The most extreme option I can think of is to create a "council of elders" that has the community-bestowed power to resolve intractable debates and declare relevant policy principles. Basically, a Supreme Court. I do worry that creating an authoritative heirarchy might produce even more problems, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:20, 9 February 2011 (EST)
: This whole argument goes to the heart of what we mean when we say two characters are "the same". The Bumblebee toy was produced and fiction was made to promote that toy, thus all of those fictions (which differ from each other) are about "the same" character. The Goldbug toy was produced with a tech spec that stated that it was "the same" character as Bumblebee. Fiction was produced to promote that toy, thus all those varying depictions of Goldbug are "the same" character as Bumblebee. The same argument applies to the differing backstories of Optimus Prime; Orion Pax and Optronix are "the same" character because they both are earlier forms of the character that was used to promote the sale of the Optimus Prime toy. The problem comes in with later stories that are not produced to promote those original toys. How do we decide what is the same? When is a character "the same character under different circumstances/in a different universe" and when is it simply an homage character? I really can't see how others see the IDW Goldbug as "the same" character as the original toy and not (as I see him) as a simple homage character. Under their viewpoint the toy belongs, under mine it doesn't. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:15, 10 February 2011 (EST)

: I NOMINATE MYSELF AS FINAL ARBITER AND SUPREME OVERLORD. all decisions will be made based on what amuses me the most. (seriously, we probably ought to have some kind of "no consensus" tag for articles like that.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:58, 10 February 2011 (EST)

Mmm...probably best not to restart the Goldbug debate itself here, Khajidha -- that would quickly distract from what Jackpot's actually asking here, which is how debates should be resolved ''in general''.

Some of the basic rules we already follow should remain. No "edit-warring"...leave it up to the Talk Pages to hash out the problem. I don't think a mere two weeks is enough to give people time to change their minds, though, especially in this crowd. One thing I notice is that despite dozens of regular contributors and hundreds overall, most Talk Page or Community Portal votes I've seen have less than 20 votes at the end. Many of these debates fly right under the radar. I'm relatively active here, but the Goldbug (IDW) chaos completely passed me by.

What about, when a Talk Page debate has clearly reached an impasse between <strike>obstinant</strike> strong-willed parties, a Vote is taken on the ''Main Page''? Some sort of easy-to-see box temporarily added to the Main Page, "above the fold" so that its visible to all visitors when they enter? It would be more noticeable than if the vote is hidden away on a single Talk Page people may or may not see. Something like ''"A [[Deadlock]] has arisen! Choose from the following choices: Should [[Goldbug (IDW)]] have the G1 toy on his page? Yes or No? (See the Goldbug (IDW) Talk Page for the full debate.)"''

I realize many debates won't be as simple as Yes or No, but if the debating parties agree in advance how to phrase the Voting Box, it could be a useful tool. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 13:07, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:Yeah, wasn't really trying to restart that debate. Was bringing up questions about general character debates, as they seem to occur quite often. But other debates also bog down, so I recognize that my questions don't apply to those debates.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:35, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:I like the idea of keeping a debate in the regulars' faces until a decision has been reached by enough people (at least 20? 25?). Many debates I keep away from because I think they'll disappear anyway and my vote doesn't really matter <s>and I also can't deal all that well with the aggressive nature of most debates, making it actively a lose-only situation if I'd enter</s>. I'm not sure if others feel that way, but I imagine this would be a boost for all to participate. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::I absolutely disagree with the premise that people who don't care enough to read the argument should have it shoved in their face until they vote. AT MOST, we should mention it somewhere prominent, like the community portal. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:53, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:::I agree that essentially putting a ballot on the front page is asking for trouble. You might get the dozens of votes you're looking for, but they'll all be uninformed gut reactions. One of the reasons these debates happen is that issues can be much more complicated and subtle than they seem at first glance. Plus one would hope that the reasoning behind the winning option would help develop our policies, but if the decisions are made by the majority of an explicitly uninformed mob, it's hard to glean any substantial precedent out of that.
:::But I think an approach like that ''could'' be combined with my "final statements" suggestion. Thinking out loud here: After a cooling-off period has been declared and a set amount of time has passed, anyone who wants to present a case can write up a defense of his or her preferred option. Those are all submitted to a neutral volunteer, who then posts them simultaneously on the relevant Talk page, and those become the voting choices. No replies are allowed, only votes. We put a notice up at least on the Community Portal, possibly on the Main Page, for another set time period, then close voting and go with the majority.
:::How does that sound? Like I said, thinking out loud, so suggestions are more than welcome.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:18, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::::Sounds pretty good to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:19, 11 February 2011 (EST)

==How featured articles are chosen==
On a side note, would a box like that also be useful to start a voting system for featured pages? Because I'm fine with Drift and Wreck-Gar and all others before, but I am absolutely clueless as to who chose them to become featured for what reasons. I'd like to see a better system for that. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: If there was a recently-completed article that's of respectable length, I choose it. The pool for featured articles is pretty damn small. Not many articles are finished, and the ones that are finished have usually already been Featured Articles already. Finished articles don't happen very frequently, so sometimes we find one that's close to completion near the end of a month and then push to finish it before the month is over. Sometimes we think a subject or a character is timely (like around BotCon, or before an episode or movie premiere) and push for that. If you want a heads up, Chris McFeely's [[Matrix of Leadership]] article is so totally March's. (I think Chris has the record for number of articles he's completed which have become featured.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:31, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: Long story short, if you want an article to be featured, finish it. That means photos for every toy and known merchandise, and storylinks (with summaries) to every piece of fiction they've appeared in. Behind the scenes information helps. The longer and more involved the article, the more appealing it is. Meaning, finishing an article for a Mini-Con who showed up in the background somewhere, or finishing an article for someone who doesn't have any illutrated appearances... these are probably not going to be featured. But people like Perceptor (G1) or Side Burn (RID) or High Wire (Armada) have enough about them to say to make an interesting featured article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:36, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: "Long story short," my ass. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:37, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:: Have we done any episodes as Featured yet? I know the over-arching "Target 2006" article was chosen once. You'd think we could get, say [[Code of Hero]] up to that standard pretty quickly. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 07:42, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::I really think we need to get [[BotCon]] up to that standard. We're pretty close! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]] is a Featured article about an episode. [[User:Excise|Excise]] 00:00, 16 February 2011 (EST)

== Letterers ==
On images of comic pages, do we credit the ''letterers'' by placing the image in an "Image by Letterer Name" category? We've got a few contradictory examples around. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:32, 12 February 2011 (EST)
:Okay, three options: For images currently in categories like "Images by Mike Scott" (where Mike Scott is a letterer), we can:
:# Create the category and treat letterers just like artists, inkers, and colorists.
:# Instead place them in a "Images ''lettered'' by Mike Scott" category.
:# Remove the category, and not attempt to categorize images by letterer.
:I'm probably going to go with option 3 barring dissent. [[User:JW|JW]] 17:25, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I added galleries to a few of the pages for letterers (eg [[Bill Oakley]], [[Peri Godbold]]) on the basis that lettering can make or [[:Image:Cryotekmrrghmraghmrugghagh.jpg|break]] a comic. As well as adding the text, the letterer has to pick where the balloons will go and place, them, so they do have a large degree of control over how the comic turns out. That said, I don't know that we need to categorise images by letterer. The original intention was [[:Category talk:Images by artist|not to]], but it looks like we ended up doing it anyway, and at least one template is set up to put images into category by letterer. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I'd vote for option 3 as well.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:02, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I'm leaning towards option 3 myself. My reasoning is that even though letterers can have a large effect on a comic, I don't see too many people wanting to find every image lettered by a given letterer. The galleries, on the other hand, are useful for demonstrating the quality of an individual's work. So those should be used. While the obsessive in me thinks we should categorize images by every applicable characteristic, it's not realistic. I don't think it benefits us enough to go through all that work for categories that only a few people might find useful. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:09, 17 February 2011 (EST)
'Kay, I'm going to go with option 3. This may involve editing a template or two. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:35, 17 February 2011 (EST)

== Categories by toy size class? ==
Do we ''want'' the following categories?
 Leader class toy images
 Deluxe class toy images
 Voyager class toy images
 Scout class toy images
 They currently have a very few things in them (and could obviously have many more), but the cat' pages themselves have not been created. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:43, 12 February 2011 (EST)

:No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:13, 12 February 2011 (EST)

::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:06, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:::As long as it's only the images and not the articles, I couldn't care less. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:09, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:There's also a "Legends class toy images" category which has 90 images in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:21, 15 February 2011 (EST)

::Legends are kind of an exception because they're a different scale/play pattern, as evidenced by the upcoming Cyberverse stuff. Scouts-on-up are ''generally'' meant to intermingle, Legends aren't. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:41, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I could go either way on this one. It's a lot of work to fill these categories out, but the ability to find all the Deluxe figures easily intrigues me. If we did institute this I would also think that this would be the proper place to put the "exclusive figure" categories and such. Basically, any category that pertains to a particular toy and not to the character could be tagged to the image of that toy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 23:08, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:I've been doing them because I saw other people do them. I don't mind either way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:51, 16 February 2011 (EST)
So, counting me as "no", that's three "no"s, an "I don't care", an "I don't mind either way", and an "either way/intrigues me". I think we're leaning toward "no". Final comments? [[User:JW|JW]] 07:08, 16 February 2011 (EST)

::I guess it's "no" or at least "not the time"? (Though I'm "I'm not sure".) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 11:21, 16 February 2011 (EST)
:::I've gone with "no", and added a note to that effect to [[Transformers_Wiki:Images]]. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:27, 16 February 2011 (EST)

Ha ha, none of the no's have actually said why they've said no. Such super debating skills that. [[Special:Contributions/213.105.226.130|213.105.226.130]] 17:44, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Undo Redone? ==

I just undid an edit, but instead of getting the automatic "Reverting edit ##### by User1 to last version by User2" summary, that box was blank. In addition, above the edit window were the captions "Current revision" and "Your text", side by side, as if there's meant to be one editable text window under each. Instead, there was only one such text window beneath them, stretching across under both captions. The page is protected so only registered users can edit it, so that MIGHT have something to do with the problem, though I doubt it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:28, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:It doesn't automatically create an edit summary if you're doing an undo on multiple revisions, so that might be it. Not sure about the other part - it's always shown me a diff at the top of the screen when I've done an undo. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:54, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::Okay, blank edit summary's explained, because it was indeed a group of 3-4 edits being undone all at once. Still inexplicable is the fact that I just checked the page history; it didn't even accept my Undo! LoneGamer78 ended up doing it instead. I've noticed some sluggish response from the site over the past fifteen minutes or so, perhaps whatever caused that was a factor? It may never be known...--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:02, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::Is it possible she just beat you to it by a few moments and thus there was an edit conflict? I've had that happen sometimes, and so there's no diff shown because now the page already matches what you were going to change it to. (Uh, does that make sense?) --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 22:17, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::::Can't rule it out entirely, but edit conflicts usually announce themselves as such, and they DO have two distinct editable text windows: one showing the text as it stands after someone edited while you were typing, the other as it would have been if you'd edited without interference.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:24, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::::A few times I've "undone" an edit, but someone else beat me to it. It doesn't seem to show an edit conflict if that happens, probably because the change is identical to the previous one. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:06, 19 February 2011 (EST)

== Banner ad question. ==
The small side box ad (the one that's still a free-floater) currently has an ad for some webcomic. Which is fine, but one of the panels has GIANT ERECT LADY NIPPLES ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm not offended by it, but it's, uh, something. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 06:39, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:Ah, yeah. That'd be because it's an NSFW comic called DarkBrain which is read aloud by "adult film star Tabitha Stevens." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:50, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:: If people don't like it, I can yank it. I didn't think its THO was that objectionable, apparently, when I okayed it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:27, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== help ==

I cant find the latest talk please help([[User:Manmcmanman|Manmcmanman]] 15:44, 21 February 2011 (EST))
:What do you mean by the latest talk? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 15:54, 21 February 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen Online Games ==

So, I figured I might as well finish up the online game write-ups for Revenge of the Fallen online games, in case they go offline once Dark of the Moon comes out. But, hot damn, do I ever suck. Which means I'm not very likely to get pics of later levels in some of these games. I'll be trying to add in whatever I can to these sections, but some help would be much appreciated! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:I can have a go at getting some screencaps tonight if no one else does. Which games in particular? I noticed some of them are already gone a couple of weeks ago, as Hasbro has redirected most of the monkeybar site they were on to the Hub site, which doesn't have them. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::Well, personally I'm having difficulty getting pics of every character's sprite from Battle for the Matrix. I'm currently working on The RPMs Devastator game. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 18:41, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::I got caps of everyone except the Fallen, haven't uploaded them yet though. I couldn't get the [[flying drone]]s to transform either. They just seem to fly around wildly in robot mode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::Dang! The Fallen is the only one I can't get to either! And yeah, the flying drones are near-impossible to get a screencap of. I got a couple mid-transformation, but that's it. If any of your pics are better than mine, feel free to replace them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:55, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::::I went and got pics from Flight of the Bumblebee and Allspark Highway. Unfortunately I can't get pics of Ratchet from the later since robovision isn't up anymore! Darn! I'll upload them later. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:45, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I grabbed a screenshot of The Fallen finally. Man, that game is a memory hog. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:38, 25 February 2011 (EST)

== Countdown? ==

Sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a while back ago, there was a countdown to ROTF on the Main Page. Perhaps a countdown to DOTM would now be appropriate as it's so close?

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to program/insert/design/<insert verb here> a countdown on a wiki page (it's for another wiki). What template or whatever does that use? I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me.

Again, terribly sorry if this is the wrong place to say this...
 - [[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:02 PM, 22 February 2011 A.D.
:Dark of the Moon countdown based on Derik's ROTF code: {{#expr: ({{ #time: U |July 1, 2011}} - {{ #time: U }})/86400 round 0}} days until [[Dark of the Moon (film)|TF: Dark of the Moon]]! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (EST)

==When to omit "Transformers" from an article title==
So I got a hankering to remove the "Transformers" from [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and all of their related pages, since unlike [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]], there's just no good reason to break policy for them. There are [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|other video games that we drop the "TF" from]], and if "Prime" is too common a term, then what about "[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]" or "[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]"?

But then I decided to check out [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?ns0=1&search=Transformers&searchx=Search&limit=500 which pages use "Transformers" in their titles,] and holyyyyyyyy crap. I copy-pasted here all the ones I found that I thought could lose the "Transformers" without negating their meaning, destroying a phrase, or otherwise severely damaging the title. (I added an "(etc.)" to each one that represents a series of identically-worded pages):

[[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Animated (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)]] 
[[1-2-3 Transformers]] 
[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Legends]] 
[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: The Headmasters (video game)]] 
[[The Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Energon Within]] 
[[The Transformers Collection]] 
[[Transformers Quest]] 
[[Transformers Key Recovery: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Power Up: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed]] 
[[Transformers PD Type]] 
[[Transformers: The Animated Movie]] 
[[Transformers Generations]] 
[[Transformers: Rise of the Chevy Autobots]] 
[[Transformers Annual 1990]] (etc.) 
[[The Transformers Sticker Book (1986)]] 
[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)]] 
[[Transformers: The Junior Novel]] 
[[Look and Find Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Coloring and Activity Book and Crayons]] 
[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers: Learn to Count Activity Tablet]] 
[[Transformers The Reusable Sticker Book]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Storybook]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Guide]] 
[[Transformers Prime Time]] 
[[Transformers Mix & Match]] 
[[Transformers Comic issue 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers The Game (console)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Autobots/Decepticons]] 
[[Transformers History of Music 1984-1990]] 
[[Transformers: Mosaic]] 
[[Transformers Name Generator]] 
[[Transformers Battle Universe]] 
[[The Transformers: Binaltech & TF Collection Complete Guide]] 
[[The Transformers Comic Magazine]] 
[[Transformers Pop-Up Book]] 
[[Transformers Visualworks]] 
[[Transformers Tooth Tunes]] 
[[Transformers Tapestry]] 
[[Transformers Song Universe]] 
[[Transformers G1: Awakening]] 
[[Transformers Armada Annual 2004]] 
[[Transformers: Beginnings]] 
[[Transformers the Movie water]] 
[[Transformers: The Score]] 
[[Transformers: The Thirteen]] 
[[Transformers: War Within Omnibus]] 
[[Transformers: The Ride]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Mutating Card Game]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Jigsaw Puzzle]] 
[[Transformers: Kōtetsu no Yūki]] 
[[The Transformers Continuum: The Definitive Chronology]] 
[[The Transformers: Bumblebee]] 
[[Transformers Adventures]] (etc.) 
[[Top Trumps: Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Race for the Mini-Con Robots]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Battle Begins]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Secret of the Star Saber]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Autobots Strike Back]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 1]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 2]] 
[[Transformers Theme Song Collection]] 
[[The Transformers: Drift]] 
[[Transformers Revenge of the Fallen Annual 2010]] 
[[Transformers CyberToy]] 
[[Transformers Hall of Fame]] 
[[The Transformers: Ironhide]] 
[[Transformers Evo.]] 
[[The Transformers Legends of the Microns: Sound of Evolution Vol. 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Music Matrix]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide: Revenge]] 
[[Transformers: Battle for the Matrix]] 
[[Transformers: Coloring and Activity Book and Stickers]] 
[[Transformers: Activity Book and Gel Pen]] 
[[Transformers: Sector 7]] 
[[Transformers: Cybertron Adventures]] 
[[Transformers Cards]] 
[[Transformers RPMs: Devastator's Demise]] 
[[Cadbury's Transformers Card Game]] 
[[Ridiculous Legend Transformers]] 
[[Famicom How-to Manga: Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Transformers Caramel]] 
[[Transformers Comic-Magazin]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Extra Comic-Sonderheft]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Super-Auswahlband]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Energon Valentine's cards]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 1]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 2]]

For many of them, the choice to keep or drop the "TF" seems intuitive, and many others are in a grey area... but I'll be damned if I can put into words any kind of coherent rationale. I'm seriously thinking that we've outgrown the "drop extraneous 'TF's" rule. Back when we only had a few hundred pages, it made a certain kind of sense: Why bother writing out stuff like "Transformers: Generation 2" when just "Generation 2" is equally meaningful to everyone here? Besides, isn't every page about Transformers by default? But in the past five years, both the wiki and the subject matter have exploded, and with both so many fine-grain, obscure topics being covered and so much not-strictly-TF content we've added, I don't think the policy serves us anymore. It doesn't make things simple; it makes things arbitrary and unpredictable.

So unless someone can sum up our policy in a way that makes a lick of sense, I propose: '''If a topic has an official title, then that should be used in full as the title of the relevant articles.''' Period. So [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] would stay right where they are, and yes, [[Generation 2 (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)", [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)", etc. I don't think we'd need to make that change happen instantly, but we could slowly propagate it as people feel inclined to. I also think we can keep the parenthetical abbreviations and in-sentence references as short as they currently are; this is only about the titles.

Thoughts?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:What are these "Transformers"? -[[Special:Contributions/75.185.113.106|75.185.113.106]] 18:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I've always been for having the full name as article titles. (Maybe also drop the "(franchise)" disambigs, because durr, but that's other topic.) Not only do we keep the full name of the subject, it aids us in disambiguation (it's easier to have smaller sets of "Transformers: Cybertron" and "Cybertron" than a large set of just "Cybertron"). [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::I don't have an opinion on adding or removing "Transformers:" from articles (other than that adding it would perhaps make articles and reading unnecessarily longer - right now, I hate having to type out "Transformers Animated" before "The AllSpark Almanac"), but I do oppose removing (franchise). If there's one thing I hate, it's when there's one 'most important' page that goes undisamb'ed (like Spark) and you'll have to go through a lot of trouble to ensure it all is meant to link there. When I cleaned up the Lithone links for planet and species, nearly every single one link directed the wrong way. Same for D-HQ, AllSpark vs Allspark, Junkion, Black Friday, etc. So, keep (franchise). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:49, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I too think "Transformers: " should be kept as well as " (franchise)". --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:46, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::I don't mind losing Transformers when it the prefix in a title that's the form of Transformers: <subtitle>, as in that case the subtitle itself is more the actual official name and "Transformers" is just tacked on as an extra identifier.

::::But in some of those things, Transformers is, well, a vital part of the thing's actual name. I mean, for instance, the Club's full official name ''is'' "Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club", so removing "Transformers" from it would be incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 03:00, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I don't think that distinction is clear enough to be workable anymore. Looking at that list, tons of them I have no idea which side of the divide they'd fall on. For instance, "[[Transformers Legends]]" is the proper title of the book; that's how it would be listed in any store or library, but for ''our'' purposes the "TF" is as extraneous as the one that we omit from [[Energon (comic)]] or [[Dinobots Strike Back]]. The "for our purposes" thing is so often so questionable... like, what would that dictate for [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]? It's definitely a subtitle situation like you described, but there are lots of non-TF "Ultimate Guide"s published by the same company... but we would never cover them, so for our purposes is the "TF" still redundant?
:::::I agree with Geewunling that it would be annoying to have to type out longer titles (though readability should be unchanged, since I think we could still truncate in-sentence references). But right NOW it's annoying that our lack of a coherent policy is making everything increasingly unpredictable. We're seeing a lot of creep in the form of stuff like [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and for some reason video games. So I don't even know what should be "corrected" anymore or how to decide the matter when creating a new article.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 13:58, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::::The annoyance of editors doesn't really enter into my consideration; the wiki is ultimately for the readers, not our convenience. If we have to do some more work for the best presentation, so be it. —Interrobang, not logged in

:I'm OK with moving articles to put Transformers into the title so long as we don't delete the redirects. If we move "Revenge of the Fallen (film)" to "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)", there are going to be a whole bunch of sites linking to the old URL, and I don't wanna have a repeat of the "(Shattered Glass)" thing where all the redirects get deleted and a whole lot of other sites are pointing to useless error pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:25, 23 February 2011 (EST)

=="(WFC)" vs. "(Prime)"==
There are currently [[Talk:Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#"(WFC)" instead of "(Prime)" for characters that originated in this franchise?|two]] [[Talk:Optimus Prime (Prime)#Move|discussions]] going about whether articles on subjects that originated in ''War for Cybertron''-branded fiction (the [[War for Cybertron games|games]], [[Transformers: Exodus|novel]], and [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|comic]]) should be titled "(WFC)" rather than "(Prime)". It was suggested that this should be brought up in the Community Portal, so here it is.

For the record, looking at [[War for Cybertron games#Featured Characters|this list]], right now we're using "(Prime)" for all named characters, even those currently exclusive to WfC, and "(WFC)" for all character ''types'' from the games. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the state of things.

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:46, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I completely agree with Jackpot. It is stupid we have an article called [[Ultra Magnus (Prime)]] stating "Ultra Magnus is an Autobot Wrecker from the WFC portion of the Aligned family continuity". I blame myself for not doing this a lot earlier, treating the WFC navbox as like a subsection of Prime when the novel was so clearly a tie-in to those games. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 18:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::WFC is a tie-in game. As I pointed out, how many Mini-Cons from the PS2 Transformers game use the disambiguator "(Transformers)"? And even then, what of novel-original characters? Do they get "(Exodus)"? And heck, didn't Exodus come out ''before'' WFC? Shouldn't the characters thusly use "(Exodus)" over "(WFC)" or "(Prime)"? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::: The book and game came out on the same day, as I recall. So... yeah. I'm completely against this. We used "Prime" because that was the name we WERE using for the continuity family; frankly, I find this wishy-washy "aligned continuity family" thing pretty lame. The core of the damn family is the Prime cartoon. It is THE central feature, and will be THE major fictional outlet and -almost assuredly- what future non-show fictions will adhere more closely to. I don't see the point in all this subdividing and adding more parantheticals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:19, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::I find it ''extremely'' hard to believe that if Hasbro's "decade" plan goes through, ''Prime'' is the last franchise we're going to see spring from it. Even Aaron Archer thinks "Prime" is a bad name for the overall deal. Given what a fractured start it's already off to, I think separating out the "family" foundation is the only sensible thing to do. So that's why [[Aligned continuity family]] exists.
::::As for the "(WFC)" notion, I'm not as personally attached to that, even though I do think it's the correct thing to do. Mostly I think that WfC needs to be acknowledged as an entity unto itself, not just a subset of ''Prime''. Strictly from a branding point of view, it ISN'T a subset; nothing has been both WfC- and Prime-branded. It's not just the title of a video game; it's in the titles of [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|a comic]] and [[Transformers: Exodus|a novel]], plus they've made [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#Toys|toys from it]] that definitely don't fit the ''Prime'' brand. (True, the toys aren't labeled "WfC", but that's par for the course with ''Generations'' anyway. At the very least, it's a grey area.) Beyond branding, it just has a unique aesthetic and sensibility that's very different from ''Prime''.
::::Based on all that, the best place WfC fits in our schema is as a "franchise", to my judgement. "''Prime'' tie-in" doesn't cut it.
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:55, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::WFC is not ''just'' a tie-in game. It has [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fcfb1b5-19b9-f369-10be-e91a2108d9ab online bios] and [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172 online timeline]. Hasbro made it its own thing. Franchise-like. Before any Prime show started we learned from the timeline that [[Megatron (Prime)|D-16]] was an Energon mine laborer and rose to prominence in secret gladiatorial combat and took the name "Megatron". So [[Megatron (Prime)]] had a whole history before the show even existed. The non-show characters with the (Prime) disambiguation also shows it doesn't quite fit. I'd go for WFC. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:35, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::AGAIN, Exodus came out the SAME DAY. So why does WFC get prominence? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:56, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::Because that's the phrase that's used in the names of [[War for Cybertron games|all]] [[Transformers: Exodus|the]] [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|media]]. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:02, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I don't see how the subline "The official history of the war for Cybertron" is the exact same as "War For Cybertron: The Vidya Game". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:24, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::I agree. Aside from three (ambiguous) words on the book's front, there's not much that says it's part of the WFC "franchise". Same for Generations. If they wanted to, they could have made figures of every War for Cybertron character and released it in a toyline explicitly called "Transformers: War for Cybertron". But they didn't; they just released five toys based on WFC designs and released them under Generations, so Generations is a WFC toy line as much as it is a G1 one (actually, probably more of G1 considering how very few WFC toys there were). The video games are only different because of hardware limitations, so having multiple games with the same title does not a franchise make. Having a website with bios and everything is a moot point, because almost every video game has that. The comic, I'll give you that one, but I don't think it's a franchise if it's a game and a tie-in comic with a limited release. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:30, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::For what it's worth, when you [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/movie-news/Transformers-War-for-Cybertron.cfm click on "War For Cybertron"] it brings up all the Generations toys. I also think the WFC timeline ties in Exodus to WFC since the events in the comic and timeline are basically from the book. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::It also brings up PCC Icepick (item 12 of 12, on page 2). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:52, 28 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::The WfC-branded timeline and comic both cover events in ''Exodus''. Hell, the comic was written by the same dude. I don't understand the logic that says that the "War for Cybertron" in the novel's title doesn't mean the same thing. If there were a novel called "Deuteronomy: The Official History of the Beast Wars" set during the events of the cartoon, I wouldn't be trying to say it was part of the ''Beast Machines'' franchise.
::::::::Let me put in a slightly different light: Because franchises are branding-based, not continuity-based, I'm not comfortable with the ''Prime'' franchise being stretched to include all this stuff that doesn't have the ''Prime'' label on it. Yes, it's clearly all RELATED, story-wise, but that's what [[Aligned continuity family|continuity pages]] are for. This feels like taking ''Machine Wars'' (which is the opposite kind of sparse: a toyline with virtually no fiction) and rolling it into G2. Sure, they're in the same family, and there are connections between the two, but they're not marketed with the same label, so we don't do it. Before ''Prime'' existed, there were these other forms of media sharing a unique title (that even got the TF-logo lockup treatment!) and covering common ground. Then ''Prime'' showed up, and so far the two labels have not been seen on the same product. To me, that means two franchises.
::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::But... there is no overarching label on the products we have poked into the WFC "Franchise". "Transformers: War for Cybertron" has its own logo which is also on the tie-in comic, and Exodus has its own logo. They're still prequels to TF:Prime. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:33, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::::I guess I just see the "War for Cybertron" in the title of ''Exodus'' as having more meaning than you do. Yeah, Hasbro could've been more blatant if they'd wanted to, but it's still clearly telling the reader it's part of the same deal as the WfC games and comic, without making any reference to ''Prime'' (or vice-versa). I can imagine a situation where the ''Prime'' branding might retroactively subsume WfC, like how the "Wreckers" comic was given the ''Universe'' brand (they say there's another game coming out, after all). But that hasn't happened yet, so in the meantime I say WfC doesn't belong under the ''Prime'' franchise.
::::::::::Anyway, at this point if we don't see eye-to-eye, we probably won't, so I'm going to shut up now.
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:What about the next thing after ''Prime'' that is in the Modern/Aligned continuity? We would have a new disambiguation, like, "Spike (Next Franchise)." and characters that have never been in Prime, like "Ultra Magnus (Prime)." Kind of confusing. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::No it isn't. The idea that WFC/Exodus are part of a big wad of continuity colloquially known as "Prime", and referred to as "Prime" because the "Prime" cartoon is THE core of the whole shebang, and will liekly BE said core for the near future, is not a hard one. It only gets confusing when you start letting obfuscating pedantry in, at which point you're only making more work for no payoff and making things harder for our readers. A trend which seems to keep coming up over and over again, I've noticed... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:09, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::I'm pretty sure I've had my share of "obfuscating pedantry" moments, but I completely agree with Siph on this one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:18, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::For the record, if people really think that using "(WFC)" would be confounding to readers, that's not a decision I'm very invested in. This discussion has ballooned into bigger issues that I ''do'' feel more strongly about, but the parenthetical itself is very take-it-or-leave-it for me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I would at the least support migrating characters who have thus far ''only'' appeared in WFC to the appropriate parenthetical.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:55, 1 March 2011 (EST)
:And move them back if they appear in Prime? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 11:03, 1 March 2011 (EST)
::Yes. I think that would make the most sense to people looking for the characters.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::I am willing to make this compromise for the time being. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 14:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)

==War For Cybertron==
War for cybertron is a relativley new game, but it is a great one. I am kind of new on this website, but to me, it looks like the War For Cybertron title has gotten mixed up with Transformers: Prime, a completley diffrent universe. also, WFC is G1 Canon. All the WFC pages and articles should be labled on G1, MAJOR cleanup is needed. {{unsigned|Holymoses|06:30, March 3, 2011 (EST)}}
:You clearly ''are'' quite new, because we would advise you to read [[Aligned continuity family|this article]] before you start in on this notion. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 06:33, 3 March 2011 (EST)
:In Hasbro's own words: "The TRANSFORMERS brand team would like to confirm that Transformers War for Cybertron video game, Transformers Exodus novel, and the Transformers Prime television show are in the same aligned continuity. Hasbro is creating a single continuity to tell the bulk of our TRANSFORMERS stories going forward." Here's the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/8189/20/ link] to the announcement --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 06:45, 3 March 2011 (EST)
::You aren't completely wrong. The game developers were heavily inspired by G1, and were pretty much making a G1 game as far as they knew. It's just that, like Khajidha said, Hasbro says War for Cybertron is part of the same continuity as Prime, so that's what the wiki goes with. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:00, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Well that still seems weird, since "Prime" has a completley diffrent story, and "Exodus" doesnt connect the two sagas very well. even if its what Hasbro said, i think we should put all this into consideration, Aaron Archer himself said that War for Cybertron was a game set in the G1 Universe. I think its wrong of Hasbro to try and connect the two diffrent Continuities. {{unsigned|Holymoses|09:12, March 4, 2011 (EST)}}
:First of all, when did Aaron Archer say that? Second, Hasbro gets to define what is in each continuity for the simple reason that it is their intellectual property. It may not be to your liking, but it cannot be wrong as they are the ones who determine what is right. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, gonna need a source on that Archer statement. Especially since he's been amongst the ones saying WFC/Exodus is part of the new continuity. Also, weren't a lot of elements in WFC, like Dark Energon, Hasbro mandates from a story bible they supplied the creators (hereby proving that Hasbro's intent was always for it to be part of the new continuity), or am I imagining things again? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:08, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::From what I read about that production bible, it is a result of guys at Hasbro sitting down and "[http://collider.com/roberto-orci-jeff-kline-interview-transformers-prime/75039/ coalescing all the mythologies] that they had institutionally for years. Actually putting it down to paper." It sounds like they were just collecting and not adding new stuff in. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Energon were added ''after'' it was in the game. And what about timing? Orci said Hasbro put together the bible after the movies came out (in mid 2009). The video game came out in mid 2010 with a video game lead time of ??? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::Unless Dark Energon is actually just the new name for Angolmois energy. The name may have been taken from the video game, but the concept could well have been in the production bible before WFC. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:37, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::What a load of supposition and crap. I hereby dub it "crapposition". I can pretty much say that you are completely wrong. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::::[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/05/interview-matt-tieger-of-high-moon-studios-on-transformers/ Matt Tieger said] that High Moon started working on WfC when they shipped their "Bourne" game, which according to the accompanying notes was mid-2008, between the first movie and RotF. [http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/interviewtransformerswarforcybertron2.html This interview] talks up the G1 inspiration and then says the WfC storyline is "a completely original story that we made up at High Moon. We worked closely with Hasbro..." The consistent impression I've gotten from several different interviews is that High Moon started from G1 and then made pitches to Hasbro, which Hasbro would provide feedback on, and eventually there was a game. The only people who I've seen actually talk about the 400-page story-bible are the ''Prime'' creators. And if Orci was being literal when he said the bible was put together "after the movie’s came out", then game development would've indeed started earlier. At the very least, it sounds pretty likely that there was some simultaneous creation.
:::::In the end, the chicken-and-egg question is basically moot because either way, WfC is part of the new deal. It doesn't matter who said the words "Dark Energon" first; it's part of the structure that binds all of the pieces, so that's that. But for nitpicking's sake, Starfield's suppositions aren't off-base from the evidence we have. Siph, if you have additional info that clarifies or contradicts any of that, please share.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::::I, similarly, have found it quite plausible when thinking on the subject to believe that High Moon could have created the idea of Dark Energon, and that Hasbro then said to themselves "We can use THAT!" and put it in the bible. It's certainly outside the realm of possibility, unless you know something we don't, Siph. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 05:24, 5 March 2011 (EST)

:Because nothing whatsoever can change in the millions of years between the WFC era and the Prime cartoon era. And yeah, good luck sourcing that Aaron claim. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
I think that if they were in the game or in Exodus:The Offical History of the War for Cybertron, they should be labled (WFC),but if they poped into the Prime teley-show or comics, they should be labled (Prime).-[ [User:DinoDigger97|DinoDigger97]] 2:11 3 Apil 2011

== Captured-Prey ads ==

One of the things advertised there appears to be a fan-made Megatron min-figure. Seeing as how everybody was upset that the TFSource ad [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive47#TFsource_ad_buy|featured fansproject stuff]], surely, this isn't right either? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 05:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)
:Check the section back up this page titled [[#Project_Wonderful_ads|Project Wonderful ads]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 8 March 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen video game character articles - [X] Scout 1, [X] Scout 2 pages for the same design ==

With the upcoming DOTM games, I thought I should look at the ROTF game articles that were abandoned in 2009 and see if I could do anything for them. I believe it was Derik who made this decision, but I am now wondering if it is necessary to have say [[Aerialbot Scout 1]] and [[Aerialbot Scout 2]], [[Omnibot Scout 1]] and [[Omnibot Scout 2]] (and so on) considering "Scout 1" and "Scout 2" are just the two different colour schemes for these mass produced generic, nameless characters who only differ in terms of textures. Any completed articles on these will have different images, but exactly the same information. Isn't that redundant? Should we perhaps just stick both of each under Aeriabot Scout, Omnibot Scout, Stunticon Scout? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:14, 11 March 2011 (EST)
:According to the articles the two Aerialbot Scouts have different health, primary weapon and secondary weapon ratings. Is that enough for separation? I don't know, but it should be considered before making a decision. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 11 March 2011 (EST)
::I don't even know where those stats came from - I don't believe the person who filled them in originally ever explained. Were they from a website, article or guide book? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:42, 11 March 2011 (EST)

== Found some much needed images, but... ==

I found them on [http://transformersiv.mforos.com/1519135/8979801-transformers-g1-aventuras-y-nostalgias-que-nunca-moriran/ this site], and I don't speak the language (I think it's Spanish) to ask for their permission to use them. The images are covers of the [[Marvel Books]] titles [[Battle at Oil Valley]], [[Summertime Coloring Book]], and [[Super Activity Book]]. That's right we don't even have an article for that last one. They also have page scans of these and other Marvel Books titles. I don't feel right just taking them for our use here and was wondering if someone who spoke the lingo would contact them for us. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 12 March 2011 (EST)
:Nevermind, Google Chrome finally remembered that it had translational abilities. The poster is offering them for download to all and sundry, so he/she can hardly care if we borrow them. I'll probably still insert a link to the main site out of courtesy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:22, 12 March 2011 (EST)
::After looking at them, I realized that they were Steve Stonebreaker's scans. I have contacted him and received permission to use them here. I'll be adding more soon. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 16 March 2011 (EDT)

== Hey, I've got a new user talk page template request... ==
[[Image:Rebirth1 Hardhead and Blurr.jpg|right|thumb|300px|TOO MANY QUOTES]]
Can we have one that reminds folks that every new thing in Transformers that even vaguely reminds you of an old thing in Transformers IS NOT A REFERENCE AND THAT IS NOT HOW REFERENCES WORK AND STOP PUTTING THEM IN THE "TRANSFORMERS REFERENCES" SECTION. Ahem. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:18, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:You mean like [[Template:notareference|this]]? --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:22, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
::Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:30, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:::Brilliant. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:39, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::That's an oldie, but a goodie. Personally, I'm wondering if there's any template that can be set up for the people that just drown episode articles in quotes... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:42, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::I think we'd first need a consensus on how many quotes are appropriate. [[User:JW|JW]] 07:41, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::It's a conversation that needs to be had, I think. You have to take length of the story into account - there are more quotes in a two hour movie than in a twenty five minute episode. I'd put the early cutoff at around five for episodes, though. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 08:00, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I like the idera of a mximum of 5 per 30 minutes (or part thereof) for Episodes & movies, but what would be a good size for comics? I'd say around 3 per issue, but it breaks down with short issues and back up stories (i.e.e most of the Marvel UK exclusive stuff...) [[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 10:19, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'd set a "soft" limit higher for 30-minute episodes {{m-}} around 10 quotes {{m-}} and I'd allow more than that if the episode was particularly well-written or quotable. I don't think there's any need for a low, hard limit, as I don't think lots of quotes hurt the wiki until we get into "quoting the whole darn episode" territory. Heck, in fact, I might favor a policy of ''judging each quote for itself.'' I.e., if a quote is good/noteworthy/illustrative/funny/wadeva, it can be kept, even if there are two dozen other quotes already. Each must stand on its merits, but there would be no hard cap. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yeah, some episodes happen to have a lot of funny/significant/memorable lines, others don't. If we set a hard cap, we might be damning ourselves to a lot of pointless fights over which quotes deserve to be included under the arbitrary limit. I'm more in favor of making a list of criteria that we can point to when we weed lame quotes out.
:::::::::Oh, and I support making a template. ''Prime'' Soundwave is the best character I can think of to use, but Movie Bumblebee or G1 Wreck-Gar would also be appropriate. Or a shot of G1 Soundwave with a tape inside of him? Can't think of a good header, though...
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 11:49, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::I mainly suggested it as a starting point because if it comes down to putting each quote in place based on "which one we like more" the talk pages are going to be absolutely horrible. HOW CAN YOU LEAVE OUT MY FAVORITE QUOTE IT IS SO FUNNY AND RELEVANT. The "5 per 30 minutes" is just a suggestion - obviously an episode that's really funny or poignant can get more. Comics issues we could maybe use pagecount as a starting point. But basically, combine the two ideas. A list of criteria is a good idea, but we also need to avoid having like, thirty quotes for a given story, twelve of which are totally shitty. If we get over five-six quotes, it's time to think about trimming, just because seriously, 90% of TF fiction isn't that goddamned quotable - or there are better places for the quotes. "I don't rock and roll - I burn!" belongs on Inferno's page, not on the episode it appeared in. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:51, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::Fair enough. Just so long as the number is sufficiently "soft" that we don't forget that our goal is high quality, not an arbitrarily low quantity. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:17, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Exactly. Like I said, I think we can also judiciously use key ''character'' quotes on the ''characters''' pages. Some quotes are very episode/story specific, while others provide insight into a character's personality or mindset. I think that's a good way to winnow the chaff, you know? -hx at work not logged in gotta run
::::::::::::::The 5-6 quotes before we start trimming sounds good, especially if some more individual character based quotes can be moved to the character pages. The big problem I keep seeing with quotes is that too many people want to quote an entire scene. If it goes beyond 3 lines it's probably not what we mean by quote here. And even 3 lines is pushing it. These should really be a single line quip or a two line set up and pay off. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:22, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::5 to 6 sounds like a good starting point to me as well. Khajidha makes a good point about the definition of quote. That, along with Hooks' point about using key character quotes on that character's article, should be pointed out on [[Help:Example episode article]], once it exists. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
What about block quotes? The page for Transformers (2007) is full of them. I think there should be a limit on how long the quote can be.--[[User:Megatron Prime|Megatron Prime]] 16:48, 19 May 2011 (EDT)
== Maybe a silly question, can we? ==

Ok, exposing my ignorance here, but isthere a way to search the wiki by alt-mode? If I wanted to know every TF that turns into a Helicopter say? There's not a "helicopter" catagory, so howwould I find them all? Thanks for any help.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:59, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]] covers some characters. There's been a few vague proposals to create a new hierarchy of categories for altmodes, but it would be a lot of work, and it's generally shouted down. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:08, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:I think the current best option if you want to do something like this is TFU.info's Identify section. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 11:00, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

==Grimlock letter==
[[Image:Grimlock letter.jpg|thumb|right]]
I recently acquired this and thought it's exactly the sort of thing we should be covering. I had no idea it even existed until a friend sent it to me and on that thought, should we add letters from Soundwave, Ratchet(?), Dreadwind and Blaster to the Holy Grails? Was there a similar response from the US comic, and do Titan still send these letters out today from Starscream? Enquiring minds want to know. Incidentally, he said he got Tailgate as his free mini-toy. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:31, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
:Good find. A letter from Grimlock is pretty awesome. That should go somewhere. The Letters Page page? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:58, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
::I've added a link from there; I'll type it up verbatim if we think it's justified? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:09, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

== Voice actors by series ==

We have a bunch of categories for voice actors by language, but I was wondering if we should have categories for voice actors by series? Would categories like "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Victory voice actors" be useful? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:27, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

:That could be useful. It'd be better than looking up cast lists and opening up every character page, at least. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:30, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

::Sound like a nice idea to me. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 10:01, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

== "Just Stop" Notice? ==

Do we think there's a role for the following proposed user notice template, for users like Eagc7?

{{messagebox|image_name=War_War_Stop_It.jpg|image_width=225px|width=90%|header=Just Stop|message_text=Please stop editing this wiki. While you haven't done anything ban-worthy (yet), you are not a productive contributor. (The reasons ''why'' are above this notice on your talk page.) So, please, '''just stop.'''}}

Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 14:39, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:If one is created, I love this image for it! --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 15:35, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::It seems a bit rude, but the image would be ''perfect'' if this is made. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 15:45, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:::If this gets phrased differently, I'd support it. Right now, the text's too rude. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:52, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::::I think it is meant to be rude and probably should be rude. This tag is designed to be placed on the talk pages of people who have seemingly ignored the multiple instances of other tags. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:57, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

I'm a little iffy on this proposal. I admit that Eagc7 has a very poor grasp of the English language, but I'm a little uncomfortable with telling a person to leave a site just because of that. If you look over his fiction edits (the ones you can read) the posts he has made are accurate, just...occasionally unreadable. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:02, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
:I'm with SFH. Eagc7's English seems to be all over the place, but there are times when he gets it more or less correctly and only needs minor typo fixes. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:21, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Whether a person's edits are bad enough (and bad enough all the time enough) to ask them to never post again seems like something that shouldn't be in the hands of, well, everybody. Putting a template up that says you're a bad speller or that you're not using Preview enough... that's pretty straight forward. But I dunno if I'm comfortable with giving us all a tool to shame each other off the wiki entirely. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:49, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:In addition, if someone's edits are so bad (and so consistently bad) that they're more of a nuisance than they are helpful, then that person should probably just be gotten rid of, instead of getting the Middle Finger Personified In A Template. As Detour said, yeah, Eagc7's English could use some work, but he does enough good here that I don't think he's completely poison or anything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
I could maybe get behind the idea of a "Stop editing until you've read the complaints on your user page" template for the blissfully unaware people constantly making edits that are being undone as soon as they make them whilst ignoring comments on their user page telling them what they're doing wrong. But a template like THIS, and this sort of behavior in general, is how we end up with trolls that come by and vandalize the wiki on a daily basis for years and years. We could avoid that sort of future headache by just not being all-out douchebags to people even if they're stupid and/or their contributions are annoying. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:15, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:I suppose the only problem with making a "read your talk page" template is that they'll never read it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:24, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::: I like this idea, too. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::Got me there. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:36, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:This will not go well. If someone's a real pest here, ban them. If they're being a pest but not quite that bad yet, notify them on their talkpage with whichever templates are already needed, and then if they don't clean up, ban them. We shouldn't be creating--publicly--an underclass of users. If you're allowed to have an account here, you're allowed to post--otherwise we look scummy. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 19:17, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::This is basically every stereotype of this wiki and its userbase given textbox form. I love it. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 20:33, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

The consensus seems to be against it, and the arguments are all good ones. (Kind of a pity, since the image was so perfect, but...) I withdraw the suggestion. Thanks all for weighing in! [[User:JW|JW]] 20:25, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:It is a good template despite the rudeness, but it is potentially necessary for extreme conditions as a last resort. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Is it possible that we could reuse that image for another template? Perhaps a Final Warning template, letting users know that if they don't cut their shit out, they're gonna get banned. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:42, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
: Clearly it should be used for a "stop edit/revert warring" template. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:32, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

== Our Blogger blog? ==

To me it appears that our blog doesn't have much use. Our twitter sends out links to occasional pages and our facebook is an easy place to congregate and talk about TFs and not take up our talk pages, but the blog hasn't been used in over half a year.

I'm thinking using it to keep track of current trends and such. We could highlight pages that are being worked on, point out users who have been creating/adding a lot to pages (i.e. Geewunling creating minor GI Joe pages, Chris McFeely going crazy with the Japanese food tie-ins). This way an editor or lurker who happens to miss a few days can easily catch up rather than having to sift through the new pages and new files (and even then if a page has just had an entirely new writeup from a stub, it wouldn't show up there).

Any thoughts on this? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:21, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

:I think it would be a good way to draw attention to obscure and/or new stuff on the Wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:46, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
::I think so, too, but there are questions left unanswered if we want to go ahead with this. Who would be given control over the posts? Should it be extra mod duties or instead given to some other veteran editors? If so, how many? Would we want weekly updates or something with less frequency? Overall, who is in the current position to grant other users the power to add posts. I can see this as a useful too, but like many things on this wiki, we need to come up with some sort of procedure before it comes to fruition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:33, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

==TFwiki in the past week==
Could someone tell me why the TFwiki has been down/inaccessible for most of the time in the past week? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:04, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:I would wager "massive spikes in traffic, as DotM stuff hits," which has happened before.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::I thought traffic wouldn't be a likely cause since the third movie is still over a month away. Guess I was wrong. Thanks! [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:27, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:::There's at least some clamor now that the toys are out there.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:46, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::::Technical explanation or non-technical? Traffic HAS picked up a bit, the wiki hardware (such as it is) is slightly overtaxed, and we need to start doing some math on what we can separate into other servers, and how much it'll cost to do so.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:15, 13 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::Cowboy time. We've moved the application server and cache to another box, and synced over the contents. If anything's missing, we can try to sync it over from the old webserver, but it wouldn't be off by more than a few minutes, so here's hoping that we're back in business!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:43, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::No wonder the connection becomes smooth again recently. Nice Works!! --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:45, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Yeah, I'd noticed that the site was back to normal. Thanks for the hard work. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:52, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::Thanks for fixing our wiki! [[User:JW|JW]] 07:15, 18 May 2011 (EDT)

== Eagc7's movie comic section edits ==

Lately Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is good. However, Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is bad. I know he tries, but whenever he does this sort of thing, he just ends up creating work for somebody else to clean up, and frankly, it's easier to write stuff from scratch than it is to fix somebody's spelling & grammar, as well as trying to make the text fit the tone and style of the paragraphs surrounding it (which is important considering the Foundation comics take place during the other Movie prequel comics). I haven't read Foundation and Rising Storm, [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eagc7 so I can't fix all of this myself], but that seems like a fair bit of work to fix at a time when the wiki was experiencing random downtime and BotCon is rapidly approaching (meaning a good chunk of our regular editors will not be able to edit much, and in any case would be updating stuff about/from BotCon). Like I said, I know he's trying, and he's getting much better than he used to be, but... maybe he should leave fiction edits to the professionals. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:27, 18 May 2011 (EDT)
:Take it up with him via his Talk Page or the E-mail a User link. If there's really a stylistic problem, then we need a Style Guide for new users to reference.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:04, 19 May 2011 (EDT)

==Page views==
Where have they gone? I believe that they have disappeared from down the pages since the move a few weeks ago. Can they be put back? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:09, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
: I don't recall pageviews... What in specific are you talking about? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:12, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::I guess [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Popularpages popular pages]? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::Yeah those, how often a page has been visited. I kinda liked keeping tabs on relative popularity in pages (like how Mayumi and Shinichi ''never'' lost their 2:1 view ratio). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:24, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::The broken popular pages has apparently been a thing lately, as I noticed Abates was removing and re-adding the link to [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]] earlier this month. Maybe he knows more about it? --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 18:41, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::No more than anyone else. I noticed it was gone and removed it from the template, but then it came back when we did the move so I readded it. I guess it got removed again, possibly for performance reasons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:58, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::::If I had to make a poorly-educated guess, the pageview thing sounds exactly like one of the many things I had to remove from Shortpacked.com to keep it from lagging so so badly. Lots of neat little things like page tracking and stuff like that used to be on there, but they were more trouble, resources-wise, than they were worth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I didn't change anything, but I generally make it a point to keep away from the Mediawiki software config, for fear of breaking that which I don't understand. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 13:07, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
::::::::May have been Scout I guess? Looks like [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDisableCounters $wgDisableCounters] got turned on at some point anyway. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:02, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Wait, that WAS me. $wgDisableCounters is supposed to be off for squid-cached installations anyway, since it doesn't actually work when you add a cache. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 21:26, 12 June 2011 (EDT)

== Why is Melissa from Kiss Players on the same Page as Marissa Faireborn from G1? ==

I know they are some how connected ,but i see the two as different as G1 Starscream is to Animated Starscream ,maybe the same history ,but a little different.--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Michael Alex Kawa]] 10:43, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
:They are related in the same way that Orion Pax is related to G1 Optimus Prime. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 10:51, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
: Marissa = Marissa. Same continuity and everything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:02, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

== I don't know if this was what you are looking for when you asked for Kiss Players radio play translations ,but i hope this helps . ==

I found this on Youtube cause I LOVE Melissa and noticed in that Holy Grail thingy that you guys needed Kiss Players radio play translations .I hope this helps ,even if it doesn't it is still pretty cool and CUTE .I did not make it so that is noted .Here is the link so you guys can go and look to see if it what is needed ,it is the only one i can find ,if it helps i will try to find more .[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZvUg2c649Y]
--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 18:25, 2 June 2011 (EDT)

I also found this site ,it gives a brief description of the radio play ,again i hope this helps .[http://www.toyvey.com/kisskiss/radioplay/index.html]--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 14:32, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
:I haven't looked at the material myself yet (I'm afraid it'll make me have to clean myself until I bleed to get the stain out) but if it's legit, then thank you very, VERY much. This stuff needs to be cataloged to serve as a warning to future generations. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 07:25, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

== The multiverse ==
So, at BotCon, Aaron Archer declared the Aligned continuity separate from the old, more meta multiverse. How does everyone want to approach this? Separate the aligned information about Primus, Unicron and the members of the 13, or keep it together for easy access and lack of confusion just as one article covers the various versions of the Matrix, or Energon, or the AllSpark? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 05:06, 6 June 2011 (EDT)
:Wait for Japan to release some piece of fiction with Prime as part of the Multiverse, then ignore him with a clear conscience. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:05, 29 June 2011 (EDT)
::Huh. I never realized until now that Japan even had the Multiverse. I guess because they don't have as many universes. And they don't have collectors' club fiction. I vaguely knew there was crazy dimension hopping in Alternity, but I figured that was its own thing. But yup, it's right there on the Alternity page. Something about Hasbro-licensed fiction and Takara-licensed fiction sharing one big happy multiverse seems very, very weird to me. Anyway, I'll put an Alternity stub on the [[Multiverse]] page. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:55, 29 June 2011 (EDT)

== Moving from Wikia ==

Hello guys, can anyone give me some advice about how to leave Wikia? I mostly need advice about easily moving content. I found that Wikia provides a database dump as an XML file with all page content except files, and with the page histories. I really need to have the page histories. I installed MediaWiki on my PC for testing, with EasyPHP for the database, and importing the XML file actually doesn't work. It says "Import failed: Loss of session data. Please try again." So I guess I set up my database too quickly and forgot some things. This was just for quick testing after all. Did you follow that template for moving, or something else? I'd really appreciate any advice and help from you! Cheers. [[User:Klow|Klow]] 07:36, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:Right out of the gate, you need to go over EVERY page you download before you go live, because Wikia inserted code that provides linkbacks to Wikia in them, meaning your pages will be providing THEM with hits. I do not know exactly what process is involved, but it's a scumfuck move of theirs that you should be aware of. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:18, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
::Nice to know, thanks. But what about what I mentioned above? How do I start and all? [[User:Klow|Klow]] 17:46, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:::A helpful resource for leaving Wikia is the [http://awa.shoutwiki.com/ Anti-Wikia Alliance site], which has useful info on departing from Wikia. The "loss of session data" usually means that you just have to try again. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:02, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:I'm just the server architecture guy, so I can't help with the XML import, but let me warn you right now, Mediawiki for a moderate-traffic site is a PIG. Get a server geek to help you out, as we've got a buttload of cache, and STILL have performance issues from time to time. It's all stuff I can probably fix, if I ever have the free time to dedicate to the problem, but it's definitely a big old pain in the rear. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 08:27, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
::Shoutwiki has been down for some time now, so the Anti-Wikia Alliance can't really help... :/ McFly, you mean I shouldn't stick to Mediawiki? [[User:Klow|Klow]] 07:23, 23 June 2011 (EDT)
:::I mean that you should make sure that whoever you've got really knows how to tweak your wiki installation to stand up to the traffic. Wikia is terrible at a great many things. Providing high-availability Mediawiki service to their userbase is NOT one of them.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 12:15, 24 June 2011 (EDT)

== Fiction Header Sprawl ==

[[Image:Proposal section headers.png|thumb]]
Our fiction sections (particularly for movie characters) feature a gob-smackingly large number of headers (apparently one for each miniseries.)

This can make it difficult to tell, as one's reading, is the next section is a new continuity or continues from the old one.

I propose a '''<tt><nowiki>{{cntd}}</nowiki></tt>''' template that could be used to mark fiction headers which continue from the previous section. Proposed markup follows:
===''Transformers'' 2007===
Mojo was a bling'd puppy.
<nowiki>{{cntd}}</nowiki>
===Revenge of the Fallen===
Mojo's got a bitch
In the above example the ROTF section would be marked by a "continued..." as in the image at right. (It's a CSS preceeding-content declaration. It could just as easily be an arrow, and indent, graying-back the header, a color, etc.)

The example at right is clumsy, but I thought I'd throw it out to see if anyone thought the '''idea''' had merit. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 06:56, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
:I'm seeing a flaw in this, in particular with movie fiction, since there are events in-between films that don't necessarily mesh with the movies themselves. Likewise, G1 characters popping up in BW fiction, where it seemingly continues both Marvel G1 and Sunbow G1. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 08:32, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
[[Image:Rs-lastpannel.jpg|thumb]]
::That is a flaw which arises from the way we structure our fiction sections.
::The IDW DOTM adaption, for instance, makes several slight tweaks to the story-- presumably to better fit its ongoing plans for tie-in comics. Thus 'Rising Storm' should ''not'' be followed by the DOTM movie... it should be followed by the DOTM movie '''adaption''' (See pic at right, which explicitly declares this.)
::There have historically been problems with this-- we didn't want lots of redundant sections in character bios, the 2007 adaption dumped most of the Quatar action despite these scenes obviously occurring in their continuity... etc. So there was a hodge-podge "let's make only ONE section for each movie..." approach adapted.
::That's not getting into how cludgy the mini-derived section titles are. Scenes in ''Foundation'' and ''Defiance'' interleave with one another, making them virtually impossible to properly wikify under the existing section-title bodge-up. What we ''really'' need are sections like 'Era of the Primes' 'Before the War' 'Exile in Space' al sitting under an "IDW Comics Continuity" header.
::(Why the hell the Titans books are listed in the ''middle'' of the IDW miniseries escapes me.)
::Whatever, our headers-- particularly for movie comics-- are broken. Above is one suggestion to render them less-so. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:47, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
:::I can definitely get behind something to simplify our header layout for the movie characters - I actually proposed something similar years ago, shortly after ROTF came out, which if I recall right basically amounted to "describe the movies first, then subsequent to them, do a section for each continuity" - IDW all in one, Titan all in one, and so on, rather than the frustrating, fragmented attempted-chronological order we use now. It just about worked for TF1, but after ROTF, things have just gotten more and more messy. However, I will spit ''blood'' if we turn into Wookieepedia and start with those rubbish "In-fiction description of time period" headers. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 08:53, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
::::Hrm in the what now? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 09:01, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::He means header titles like 'Era of the Primes' which describe a fictional time period. I can agree that those aren't a very good idea for us, given that such eras don't exist across all continuities in a continuity family. Trying to blend the various continuities in such a way implies they're more similar than they are. McFeely's idea of putting the films together, then having section for each of the other continuities, makes more sense for the way Transformers fiction is handled continuity-wise. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 14:54, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::I'm fine with Chris's idea or maintaining the current status quo. I am however, adamantly against time period sections. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:03, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
::::::Yeah, I'm thinking McFeely's proposal has the least problems when it comes to sorting messy fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:08, 8 July 2011 (EDT)
:::::::Took a bit of a poke around to see if that old proposal was still around, and [[User:Chris_McFeely/ROTF_proposal|restored it]]. [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive38|Here's]] what some people thought at the time. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:12, 8 July 2011 (EDT)

== Uploading of pngs ==

I wonder whether a warning when someone tries to upload a png would help. By the looks, taking the 'png' extension out of [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgFileExtensions Manual:$wgFileExtensions] (Is Scout still handing MediaWiki configuration?) will cause the site to display a warning which you then have to continue through to upload the image. It's possible that people will just click through without reading it like with the "this is a huge file" warning, but it seems like it'd be worth a try. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:32, 18 July 2011 (EDT)
:What's wrong with PNGs? I was under the impression that they worked. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 13:28, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

MediaWiki:Tech

2011-06-24T16:50:54Z

McFly: /* Configuration Settings */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-06-24T16:15:48Z

McFly: /* Moving from Wikia */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


==Didn't we have a Transformers Appearances/References in Other Media page?==
I could have sworn we did, mentioning stuff like Family guy etc. If we don't have such a page, would it be allowed to be created? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 11:53, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:Unless it's officially sanctioned by Hasbro, no, we do not mention Transformer appearances in other media. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:54, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:: If it ever existed, it would have been destroyed with fire in about 30 seconds. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:46, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::: Of course, if we did have such a page, we could use it as a lighting rod, keep anons from adding something to Soundwave's page every time Seth Green says the word "transformers." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:28, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Of course, NO. Discussion over. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Discussion not quite over. If the unofficial nature of the topic is the reason why it is not allowed, then there are several articles that already exist that are pushing boundaries on the wiki. I would have thought that the biggest problem would be it's size.[[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 09:26, 20 December 2010 (EST)
:::::Yeah, that'd be the other big reason. There's so many such references it would be impossible to keep track of them all. It would also involve making sure what's added there is actually a TF reference. And given all the Toms, Dicks and Harrys that'll come out of the woodwork to add such stuff, that's going to be more trouble than not having a page. Best not to get a larger headache for the sake of reducing a smaller one. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:44, 20 December 2010 (EST)

=="Knockoff warning" for toy sections?==
Just something that occurred to me... as I skimmed this page http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 and looked at alllllll the "could be mistaken for real and paid stupid money for" knockoffs... is there any objection to some form of link to this in the relevant toy sections? Sadly, the page lacks a "jump to" feature of any kind, but alerting people to the potential danger of dropping several hundred on what they think is a genuine Defensor box set... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:50, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:I think it skirts the line with our "we don't really discuss knockoffs" policy, but on the other hand, yeah, it's a useful bit of information, almost to the point where we could stand to have a special page about ''these specific knockoffs''. I am not opposed to adding a link to that site, no, as long as it's got a massive and specific caveat attached to it (maybe even with a special template box thing ("A Prime Problem"-themed perhaps?)). Hell, maybe the highendtfs people would be willing to throw up navigation in exchange for the inevitable deluge of hits - anyone got contact info for the owner? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 09:11, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::It's worth noting that there are some very well-done Henkei seekers knockoffs now, too. The really expensive ones even, like Thundercracker. Their sections could use warnings as well. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:56, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::Are they in knockoff PACKAGING that is meant to look like the real thing? That's the really tricky part. G1 MIB shit is much, much more expensive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:27, 19 December 2010 (EST)
::::Yes, they are: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/buyer-beware-update-on-ko-henkei-seekers/20380/ -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:03, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::I am not sure I want to attach more template boxes to pages as is. Especially over something like knockoffs. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:55, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::I'd ''thought'' about a template, but... ehn. I think a simple link under the TFU.info (or whatever), perhaps with a bolded "'''Knockoff alert'''" text. Like...

::::*''[http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 '''Knockoff alert''': More information on packaged imitations of this toy at HighendTFs.com]''

:::Thoughts? This would ONLY cover stuff that is in packaging meant to deceive you by looking as real as they can get it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:05, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::::I could agree with that. This is a step beyond your standard knock off crap, some notice might be appropriate.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:44, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::::I think it is a good idea to have it, since it is useful. This is different from putting info of some KO or unlicensed products on the page. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:49, 19 December 2010 (EST)

== Extension:Oversight ==

Quite a few times I've seen admins delete and undelete pages to clean out bad revisions. Why they do this I have no idea, since we have [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Oversight the Oversight extension] installed.

Perhaps we should look into granting some people "oversighter" access? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 05:09, 25 December 2010 (EST)
:I've just noticed that deleting and then restoring pages in the manner mentioned above has the side effect of resetting a page's page views stats, so that's another point in favour of the Oversight extension. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:40, 11 January 2011 (EST)

== Wikipedia, revisited ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#The_.22Campaign_of_Deletion.22_against_the_Transformers_Wiki_Project_by_NotARealWord_and_TFWiki.net]

Just in case anyone's interested. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 10:54, 5 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log back in)
:NEWSFLASH: Nobody cares. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:21, 5 January 2011 (EST)

== Captcha to prevent spambots? ==

Is there any way we could implement captcha to account creation to prevent the spambot problem we're having now? I've seen other wikis use that measure. Maybe also disable new page creation by anons? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:56, 6 January 2011 (EST)
:We already have CAPTCHA implemented on the account creation service. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 13:09, 6 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log in)
::Never mind, then! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:30, 6 January 2011 (EST)

== Real world events by day Category ==

These of course comprise every date of the year. However, I notice recently people have been adding fictional events to these dates. That basically invalidates the Category, since it's no longer comprised of only real-world events. The fictional events should be moved out into another section, or the category name should be changed to "Events by day". Thoughts? --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:01, 9 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree with changing to "Events by day". I would also support having separate fictional and real world sections on the pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:38, 9 January 2011 (EST)

== Project Wonderful ads ==

Um, guys, I found there [http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/53018-1293943633.gif Non-official products] in the ads of CapturedPrey. I know the small ads are showing up randomly (and may not be controllable since we can't regulate them), but I think it is still need to be reported here. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 01:04, 16 January 2011 (EST)
: I don't mind them in the non-permanent ads. TFSource used them all the time in their ads before we made them permanent sponsors. It was only when we made them a permanent sponsor did we ask to make them free of third-party product. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:57, 16 January 2011 (EST)

== Games <strike>fiction</strike> ==

Okay, now that [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] has flooded the character pages with stubs for 30 years worth of crappy Transformers games, can we reconsider how the Games sections are treated? I really don't think in-universe fiction descriptions are the way to handle it. [[War for Cybertron]] may've had a plot, but the majority of TF games are more in the vein of "hit things until they stop coming". A fiction section makes even less sense for games where the character selection is variable. ''"[[Hardhead (G1)#Transformers:_The_Headmasters|Hardhead]] may (or may not) have been present at this battle. Or this one. Or this..."'' Ditto for generic drone soldiers. Isn't there a way to address the games without trying to craft a sensical fiction for them? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:46, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree. The games should appear as merchandise on all relevant characters pages, but there is no need for a fiction write up for most games on those same pages. A generic write up on the game page should suffice. Something like "An Autobot warrior participated in a battle...", with a character box listing all potential "Autobot warriors" (aka playable characters). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Moving games to merchandise sounds awful. It would result in amazing amounts of lost information. I have no idea what doing that would solve. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:44, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::I think it depends on the game - for example in the ROTF console game, while you CAN play as multiple characters, the game provides a suggested one for you. IMO, that's who "actually" did the stuff depicted in the game (and the opposing side's campaign generally suggests it as well). When you can just pick from a half-dozen dudes and it doesn't matter, then maybe a brief summary of the game's plot and a note. "Jerkwagon was one of many Autobots involved in blah blah plot synopsis bluh. NOTE: Such-and-such game allowed players to choose multiple protagonists, including Jerkwagon." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 13:19, 25 January 2011 (EST)
I agree that Games should be their own section -- there's certainly enough of them, and they should be treated differently than keychains and what-not. But I think an out-of-universe description of the games would be better in most cases. Instead of having to write vague text like ''"As Ultra Magnus searched for the truth behind Optimus Prime's death, he battled Trypticon in a game of death and suffering."'', which is about all the plot I could wrangle out of [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy|Convoy no Nazo]] and tells you virtually nothing, we could write something more informative, like ''"Trypticon is the boss of Stage 10."'', and describe what actually happens in the game instead of trying to make it sound like believable fiction. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:29, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::My personal view on the matter is, from a character's page, I should be able to find EVERY place that character has appeared. And when we do list guys having an appearance when they're most likely an animation error in the far-background of an episode, I don't think there's any excuse to NOT list an appearance of a character wherever he might appear, including board and video games. Is that a lot of work? Yeah. But beneath all the jokes that make this place so great, this is still an encyclopedia, and purposely leaving out information out of an encyclopedia is wrong. Though I think Hooper X has the right idea... I doesn't have to be the most super-extensive write up. Heck, I was even going to suggest just having a link saying "See Return of Convoy article" or something like that. Also: I apologize if I had started getting very sloppy last night, but looking back, it was like 5 in the morning by the time I finished up. Yikes. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:10, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::I totally agree that the games should be dealt with on the character pages. I'm just looking for an option other than a completely in-fiction description. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 15:14, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::: The first idea that comes to mind is having a subsection called "Gameplay" or something like that for each game write-up, something that would be similar to a note? Though really, my main solution for stuff like that has been, up to this point, to just stick a couple of notes in the game write-up, like on [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s page. I'll keep on trying to think up other solutions though... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:26, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::Storylinks already serve as that, so what's the point of another link? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:47, 25 January 2011 (EST)

== Fiction order guide? ==

I've been over the Style guides a few times trying to find if a page like this already exists, but it doesn't look like it. I'll be the first to admit that when adding in new fiction/game subsections to a character's article, I sometimes confuse and probably put them out of order. So I've been wondering if a page that lists every fictional work and game in the proper order of each other would be a good idea? On one hand, it seems like an ABSURD amount of work for a style guide, one that would have to be CONSTANTLY updated as new things come out. On the other hand, it would be very handy to have a list to reference for character pages. Especially because it can get VERY frustrating trying to hunt down which book/cartoon/whatever came first in the same year. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about, here's an example I quickly put together, using the [[Cheetor (BW)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]] pages as reference.

When listing a character's media appearances, use this sorting order:
*Fiction
**Generation 1 Marvel Comics continuity
**Generation 1 S.T.A.R.S. pack-in flyers
**Generation 1 cartoon continuity
**Generation 1 Kid Stuff Talking Story Books
**Generation 1 Big Looker Story Books
**Generation 1 Ladybird Books continuity
**''Transformers in 3-D''
**''Transformers PD Type'' comic
**''Comic Bom Bom G-2'' comic
**Beast Wars First wave toy bios
**Beast Wars Cartoon continuity
***Dawn of Future's Past
***''Beast Wars'' cartoon
***Fast Action Battlers toyline
***3H ''Tales from the Beast Wars'' comics
***IDW ''Beast Wars'' comics
***''Transformers Legends'' anthology
***''Beast Machines'' cartoon
***''Beast Machines'' toy bio
***''Universe'' comic
***''Beast Wars Metals'' comic
***Beast Wars ''Henkei! Henkei!'' pack-in comic
**Generation 1 Dreamwave comics continuity
**''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''
**''Transformers/G.I. Joe''
**Generation 1 IDW comics continuity
**''Hearts of Steel''
**''Music Label''
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' (pack-in comic)
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' Bun Bun manga
**Alternity
**''Robot Heroes'' comic
**''Universe'' cartoon
**Wings of Honor

Is this a good idea? Would anyone actually like to see this kind of thing, or would I just be putting a whole bunch of work into something we don't need? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:28, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:We do need standardization of section names. The section order, however, depends on order in which the character appeared in those continuities in the real world. Then the subsections are ordered by the fictional chronology. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:35, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::No wonder I get confused by this fiction order thing. @_@ I guess I might just be one of those people that will never get the hang of some of these things. And yeah, the section names was definitely something else I wanted to tackle, since I've seen at times no less than four different ways to refer to a certain media. I sometimes have to check the storylinks at the end to be sure it's all part of the same story! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:45, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Note that, within a continuity, flashbacks and time travel can mean that experiential fictional chronology for one character requires a different order of headings than for another. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:16, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::In regards to standardization, I have an idea. What if we create a list of headers (kept on this page perhaps) used on Optimus Prime (G1)'s page (probably has the greatest number of different headers), use that as our initial standards list, then update it as we find other headers or decide to change the existing standards? Once we think we've covered the majority of possibilities, we could move it to a help page and make it official policy. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:49, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::::I put together [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a sandbox along these lines]] a couple of years ago. It hasn't been updated in quite a while, and I'm not sure it was ever actually complete, and it was the subject of [[User_talk:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a bit of debate]]... but there it is, for what it's worth. (Also, I support standardization of headers, but I've run into [[Talk:Ricochet_(Headmasters)#Header|some]] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive22#Section_naming_conventions|opposition]] over the nitty-gritty before, so best of luck.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 06:11, 8 February 2011 (EST)

== Foreign name reorganization ==

Is there any chance we could consider moving the foreign names somewhere else in the article other than at the top? We've already established a new standard for episodes, but characters could stand to have their names moved to their own dedicated section, likely under "Notes". There, we could add things like kana and Cyrillic forms of names not different from the English version. Opinions? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 4 February 2011 (EST)
:I'm in favor of it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:33, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::All things considered, since this is (mostly) an english-centric wiki when it comes to stuff, the foreign names do come off as being interesting trivia more than anything else. I'm in favour of this too. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:37, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I'm fine with where they are now, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:39, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I can see the logic in them being moved down to notes. You've got an in-universe profile, then a bunch of out-of-universe names, then the in-universe fiction section. The only argument I have against it is that I'm used to seeing the foreign names at the top. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:05, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::If it can be moved downward (to the first entry of the notes section or a new section after the notes section) instead of being on the top, MOVE it. Originally, I'm fine withe where they are {{m-}} but that would be a character with fewer foreign names. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 19:55, 4 February 2011 (EST)
Any further opinions on this? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:36, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:What about cases where some of the extra names at the top are English, e.g. Omni Productions names, or preliminary or nicknames? Would they remain at the top or become notes too? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:29, 21 February 2011 (EST)
::The Malay dub still technically counts as foreign in my mind. Nicknames should be integrated in the introduction (or notes section), and preliminary names should have been in notes in the first place, since they aren't the characters' "real names" in any sense. Further elaboration of the preliminary names better suits the notes section, anyway. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:43, 21 February 2011 (EST)
Japanese names are often for a character in a slightly different continuity. Like "Fire Convoy" is a Car Robots character and "Optimus Prime" is an RID character, but they share the same page. Or "Flame Convoy" is a Galaxy Force character but "Scourge" is a Cybertron character. In that case they should have the Japanese name up top. The names that are just different language versions of the English character can go on bottom. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:18, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:... no. ''Cybertron'' and ''Galaxy Force'' are NOT different stories (Takara officially put GF back in the same timeline as the prior two series), and the ''RID/CR'' split is a unique case. In neither case should the names go up top. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:44, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::They are slightly different continuities. Galaxy Force doesn't have the [[Omega Frequency]] for example. And the Grand Black Hole is different. And the [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity]] is different. [[Blaster (G1)|Broadcast]] never became Twincast in English. I think Japanese names are a special case and deserve to be on top since Japanese toyline & fiction continuity is always slightly separate. But I can hit the "end" key on the keyboard easy enough. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::Every single foreign language version of something is technically a slightly different continuity, strictly due to the nature of translation. This is not a arena in which Galaxy Force is unique. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== Commercial Appearances section ==

Alright, so I plan later on to start going through characters' pages and add in a "Commercial Appearances" section where it applies (sorry, I can't this weekend... homework to do!). Several characters already have this section and a lot of these commercials have nice short animations or other interesting characterizations and tidbits that I think they bear to be included in the characters' pages. Although, much like the Games sections, I'll only be able to marginally help by adding in the section itself to let people know that there's work to be done on a character's page... MY computer is so incredibly shitty that I can't even play videos off youtube. D:

But anyways, the reason I'm bringing this up here is because before I get started, I'd like to discuss what kind of format we want for this section, so it can be done right the first time around. Obviously, where it applies, stuff like indicating who the voice actor for the character makes sense, but should the write-up be in-universe or not? Since commercials fluctuate between using a short animation telling a mini-story and just being a straight-up commercial saying "buy this toy!" should a combination of both in-universe and out-of-universe description be used? And should we count the parts where the kids brandish their action figures and talk for the character as dialog spoken by the character? That's all the questions on the subject I can really think of for now... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:12, 6 February 2011 (EST)
:I would write up the animation segments in-universe so long as they're unique to the commercial (i.e. not just recycled footage from one of the cartoons). Anything else that's notable enough could qualify for an out of universe note. But I wouldn't bother with recycled animation or the kids talking for the figures. That doesn't qualify as fiction to me.
:In regards to your inability to view the commercials, would it help if you could download them in some fashion and then watch them offline? Maybe burn the videos to a DVD disc? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:43, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, any clips taken from pre-existing mediums would be redundant from those scenes being already covered in other sections on that character's page. Personally though, I'm still on the fence about the kids talking for the figures... I find it comparable to botcon script readings in a way... People just talking out loud for a character without any accompanying animation... I'm prone to be swayed either way. As for me viewing the commercials themselves, my spring break is a week from now. I might have access to a better computer then, but otherwise I'll just be putting in information already available on the wiki to the appropriate pages throughout the week, I guess. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 17:53, 6 February 2011 (EST)

==How to resolve monster debates?==
[[User:-Blackout-]]'s recent meltdown over being prevented from editing [[Goldbug (IDW)]] has made me think again about how policy/content discussions tend to go on this wiki. It's a big part of why I haven't been around since last summer: I found myself perpetuating these miles-long debates that few cared to read, everyone was irritated by, and most importantly ''were impossible to resolve.''

That Goldbug article is a sterling example. Right now, people are talking about it as if the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1|giant]] [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2|debate]] had resolved in favor of the current setup, so changing the article at this point is taboo because it "was dealt with already." But that's not how it went at all. Blackout's dickishly unilateral edit-war was definitely the Wrong Way to reopen this, but it's also wrong to pretend that we had achieved consensus or closure on the issue.

At [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2#Breaking down the problem|the end of the debate]], I had restated the case for [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Goldbug (G1)|my "Goldbug (G1)" sandbox]], which is definitely different from the current setup, and 6 other people declared support for it while 2 objected at length. But the objectors were also against the current setup: Jeysie wanted the toy gone, and Derik wanted... something inscrutable and Deriky. Combining those numbers with the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1#Vote Tally|premature vote]] that had been taken earlier (and adjusting for the voters who changed their minds by the end), I count:

Sandbox: 8 
Sandbox with modifications: 3 
Current page: 7 
Current page without the toy: 2

That's not consensus. That's deadlock. In fact, there were fewer votes to keep the page as-is than there were to change it in some fashion. The current setup didn't win out in terms of votes, logic, precedent, or any other measure: It won out because it was what happened to be there when the debate died of exhaustion.

So we're stuck with an awkward page that most people want to be different, encased in concrete forevermore. I don't see any way out of this situation, and I've watched the same principle play out with other debates too many times. At the very least, I wonder if it would be helpful to have a Template:Deadlock that we could slap on inconclusive debates (with a picture of [[Drift (G1)|Deadlock]], natch) so people know the true state of things.

Taking that idea further, maybe it could come with a period of enforced moratorium – say, two weeks – followed by a revote and/or a formalized "final statements" opportunity? The most extreme option I can think of is to create a "council of elders" that has the community-bestowed power to resolve intractable debates and declare relevant policy principles. Basically, a Supreme Court. I do worry that creating an authoritative heirarchy might produce even more problems, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:20, 9 February 2011 (EST)
: This whole argument goes to the heart of what we mean when we say two characters are "the same". The Bumblebee toy was produced and fiction was made to promote that toy, thus all of those fictions (which differ from each other) are about "the same" character. The Goldbug toy was produced with a tech spec that stated that it was "the same" character as Bumblebee. Fiction was produced to promote that toy, thus all those varying depictions of Goldbug are "the same" character as Bumblebee. The same argument applies to the differing backstories of Optimus Prime; Orion Pax and Optronix are "the same" character because they both are earlier forms of the character that was used to promote the sale of the Optimus Prime toy. The problem comes in with later stories that are not produced to promote those original toys. How do we decide what is the same? When is a character "the same character under different circumstances/in a different universe" and when is it simply an homage character? I really can't see how others see the IDW Goldbug as "the same" character as the original toy and not (as I see him) as a simple homage character. Under their viewpoint the toy belongs, under mine it doesn't. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:15, 10 February 2011 (EST)

: I NOMINATE MYSELF AS FINAL ARBITER AND SUPREME OVERLORD. all decisions will be made based on what amuses me the most. (seriously, we probably ought to have some kind of "no consensus" tag for articles like that.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:58, 10 February 2011 (EST)

Mmm...probably best not to restart the Goldbug debate itself here, Khajidha -- that would quickly distract from what Jackpot's actually asking here, which is how debates should be resolved ''in general''.

Some of the basic rules we already follow should remain. No "edit-warring"...leave it up to the Talk Pages to hash out the problem. I don't think a mere two weeks is enough to give people time to change their minds, though, especially in this crowd. One thing I notice is that despite dozens of regular contributors and hundreds overall, most Talk Page or Community Portal votes I've seen have less than 20 votes at the end. Many of these debates fly right under the radar. I'm relatively active here, but the Goldbug (IDW) chaos completely passed me by.

What about, when a Talk Page debate has clearly reached an impasse between <strike>obstinant</strike> strong-willed parties, a Vote is taken on the ''Main Page''? Some sort of easy-to-see box temporarily added to the Main Page, "above the fold" so that its visible to all visitors when they enter? It would be more noticeable than if the vote is hidden away on a single Talk Page people may or may not see. Something like ''"A [[Deadlock]] has arisen! Choose from the following choices: Should [[Goldbug (IDW)]] have the G1 toy on his page? Yes or No? (See the Goldbug (IDW) Talk Page for the full debate.)"''

I realize many debates won't be as simple as Yes or No, but if the debating parties agree in advance how to phrase the Voting Box, it could be a useful tool. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 13:07, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:Yeah, wasn't really trying to restart that debate. Was bringing up questions about general character debates, as they seem to occur quite often. But other debates also bog down, so I recognize that my questions don't apply to those debates.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:35, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:I like the idea of keeping a debate in the regulars' faces until a decision has been reached by enough people (at least 20? 25?). Many debates I keep away from because I think they'll disappear anyway and my vote doesn't really matter <s>and I also can't deal all that well with the aggressive nature of most debates, making it actively a lose-only situation if I'd enter</s>. I'm not sure if others feel that way, but I imagine this would be a boost for all to participate. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::I absolutely disagree with the premise that people who don't care enough to read the argument should have it shoved in their face until they vote. AT MOST, we should mention it somewhere prominent, like the community portal. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:53, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:::I agree that essentially putting a ballot on the front page is asking for trouble. You might get the dozens of votes you're looking for, but they'll all be uninformed gut reactions. One of the reasons these debates happen is that issues can be much more complicated and subtle than they seem at first glance. Plus one would hope that the reasoning behind the winning option would help develop our policies, but if the decisions are made by the majority of an explicitly uninformed mob, it's hard to glean any substantial precedent out of that.
:::But I think an approach like that ''could'' be combined with my "final statements" suggestion. Thinking out loud here: After a cooling-off period has been declared and a set amount of time has passed, anyone who wants to present a case can write up a defense of his or her preferred option. Those are all submitted to a neutral volunteer, who then posts them simultaneously on the relevant Talk page, and those become the voting choices. No replies are allowed, only votes. We put a notice up at least on the Community Portal, possibly on the Main Page, for another set time period, then close voting and go with the majority.
:::How does that sound? Like I said, thinking out loud, so suggestions are more than welcome.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:18, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::::Sounds pretty good to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:19, 11 February 2011 (EST)

==How featured articles are chosen==
On a side note, would a box like that also be useful to start a voting system for featured pages? Because I'm fine with Drift and Wreck-Gar and all others before, but I am absolutely clueless as to who chose them to become featured for what reasons. I'd like to see a better system for that. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: If there was a recently-completed article that's of respectable length, I choose it. The pool for featured articles is pretty damn small. Not many articles are finished, and the ones that are finished have usually already been Featured Articles already. Finished articles don't happen very frequently, so sometimes we find one that's close to completion near the end of a month and then push to finish it before the month is over. Sometimes we think a subject or a character is timely (like around BotCon, or before an episode or movie premiere) and push for that. If you want a heads up, Chris McFeely's [[Matrix of Leadership]] article is so totally March's. (I think Chris has the record for number of articles he's completed which have become featured.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:31, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: Long story short, if you want an article to be featured, finish it. That means photos for every toy and known merchandise, and storylinks (with summaries) to every piece of fiction they've appeared in. Behind the scenes information helps. The longer and more involved the article, the more appealing it is. Meaning, finishing an article for a Mini-Con who showed up in the background somewhere, or finishing an article for someone who doesn't have any illutrated appearances... these are probably not going to be featured. But people like Perceptor (G1) or Side Burn (RID) or High Wire (Armada) have enough about them to say to make an interesting featured article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:36, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: "Long story short," my ass. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:37, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:: Have we done any episodes as Featured yet? I know the over-arching "Target 2006" article was chosen once. You'd think we could get, say [[Code of Hero]] up to that standard pretty quickly. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 07:42, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::I really think we need to get [[BotCon]] up to that standard. We're pretty close! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]] is a Featured article about an episode. [[User:Excise|Excise]] 00:00, 16 February 2011 (EST)

== Letterers ==
On images of comic pages, do we credit the ''letterers'' by placing the image in an "Image by Letterer Name" category? We've got a few contradictory examples around. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:32, 12 February 2011 (EST)
:Okay, three options: For images currently in categories like "Images by Mike Scott" (where Mike Scott is a letterer), we can:
:# Create the category and treat letterers just like artists, inkers, and colorists.
:# Instead place them in a "Images ''lettered'' by Mike Scott" category.
:# Remove the category, and not attempt to categorize images by letterer.
:I'm probably going to go with option 3 barring dissent. [[User:JW|JW]] 17:25, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I added galleries to a few of the pages for letterers (eg [[Bill Oakley]], [[Peri Godbold]]) on the basis that lettering can make or [[:Image:Cryotekmrrghmraghmrugghagh.jpg|break]] a comic. As well as adding the text, the letterer has to pick where the balloons will go and place, them, so they do have a large degree of control over how the comic turns out. That said, I don't know that we need to categorise images by letterer. The original intention was [[:Category talk:Images by artist|not to]], but it looks like we ended up doing it anyway, and at least one template is set up to put images into category by letterer. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I'd vote for option 3 as well.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:02, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I'm leaning towards option 3 myself. My reasoning is that even though letterers can have a large effect on a comic, I don't see too many people wanting to find every image lettered by a given letterer. The galleries, on the other hand, are useful for demonstrating the quality of an individual's work. So those should be used. While the obsessive in me thinks we should categorize images by every applicable characteristic, it's not realistic. I don't think it benefits us enough to go through all that work for categories that only a few people might find useful. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:09, 17 February 2011 (EST)
'Kay, I'm going to go with option 3. This may involve editing a template or two. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:35, 17 February 2011 (EST)

== Categories by toy size class? ==
Do we ''want'' the following categories?
 Leader class toy images
 Deluxe class toy images
 Voyager class toy images
 Scout class toy images
 They currently have a very few things in them (and could obviously have many more), but the cat' pages themselves have not been created. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:43, 12 February 2011 (EST)

:No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:13, 12 February 2011 (EST)

::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:06, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:::As long as it's only the images and not the articles, I couldn't care less. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:09, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:There's also a "Legends class toy images" category which has 90 images in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:21, 15 February 2011 (EST)

::Legends are kind of an exception because they're a different scale/play pattern, as evidenced by the upcoming Cyberverse stuff. Scouts-on-up are ''generally'' meant to intermingle, Legends aren't. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:41, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I could go either way on this one. It's a lot of work to fill these categories out, but the ability to find all the Deluxe figures easily intrigues me. If we did institute this I would also think that this would be the proper place to put the "exclusive figure" categories and such. Basically, any category that pertains to a particular toy and not to the character could be tagged to the image of that toy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 23:08, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:I've been doing them because I saw other people do them. I don't mind either way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:51, 16 February 2011 (EST)
So, counting me as "no", that's three "no"s, an "I don't care", an "I don't mind either way", and an "either way/intrigues me". I think we're leaning toward "no". Final comments? [[User:JW|JW]] 07:08, 16 February 2011 (EST)

::I guess it's "no" or at least "not the time"? (Though I'm "I'm not sure".) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 11:21, 16 February 2011 (EST)
:::I've gone with "no", and added a note to that effect to [[Transformers_Wiki:Images]]. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:27, 16 February 2011 (EST)

Ha ha, none of the no's have actually said why they've said no. Such super debating skills that. [[Special:Contributions/213.105.226.130|213.105.226.130]] 17:44, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Undo Redone? ==

I just undid an edit, but instead of getting the automatic "Reverting edit ##### by User1 to last version by User2" summary, that box was blank. In addition, above the edit window were the captions "Current revision" and "Your text", side by side, as if there's meant to be one editable text window under each. Instead, there was only one such text window beneath them, stretching across under both captions. The page is protected so only registered users can edit it, so that MIGHT have something to do with the problem, though I doubt it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:28, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:It doesn't automatically create an edit summary if you're doing an undo on multiple revisions, so that might be it. Not sure about the other part - it's always shown me a diff at the top of the screen when I've done an undo. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:54, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::Okay, blank edit summary's explained, because it was indeed a group of 3-4 edits being undone all at once. Still inexplicable is the fact that I just checked the page history; it didn't even accept my Undo! LoneGamer78 ended up doing it instead. I've noticed some sluggish response from the site over the past fifteen minutes or so, perhaps whatever caused that was a factor? It may never be known...--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:02, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::Is it possible she just beat you to it by a few moments and thus there was an edit conflict? I've had that happen sometimes, and so there's no diff shown because now the page already matches what you were going to change it to. (Uh, does that make sense?) --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 22:17, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::::Can't rule it out entirely, but edit conflicts usually announce themselves as such, and they DO have two distinct editable text windows: one showing the text as it stands after someone edited while you were typing, the other as it would have been if you'd edited without interference.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:24, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::::A few times I've "undone" an edit, but someone else beat me to it. It doesn't seem to show an edit conflict if that happens, probably because the change is identical to the previous one. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:06, 19 February 2011 (EST)

== Banner ad question. ==
The small side box ad (the one that's still a free-floater) currently has an ad for some webcomic. Which is fine, but one of the panels has GIANT ERECT LADY NIPPLES ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm not offended by it, but it's, uh, something. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 06:39, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:Ah, yeah. That'd be because it's an NSFW comic called DarkBrain which is read aloud by "adult film star Tabitha Stevens." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:50, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:: If people don't like it, I can yank it. I didn't think its THO was that objectionable, apparently, when I okayed it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:27, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== help ==

I cant find the latest talk please help([[User:Manmcmanman|Manmcmanman]] 15:44, 21 February 2011 (EST))
:What do you mean by the latest talk? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 15:54, 21 February 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen Online Games ==

So, I figured I might as well finish up the online game write-ups for Revenge of the Fallen online games, in case they go offline once Dark of the Moon comes out. But, hot damn, do I ever suck. Which means I'm not very likely to get pics of later levels in some of these games. I'll be trying to add in whatever I can to these sections, but some help would be much appreciated! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:I can have a go at getting some screencaps tonight if no one else does. Which games in particular? I noticed some of them are already gone a couple of weeks ago, as Hasbro has redirected most of the monkeybar site they were on to the Hub site, which doesn't have them. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::Well, personally I'm having difficulty getting pics of every character's sprite from Battle for the Matrix. I'm currently working on The RPMs Devastator game. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 18:41, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::I got caps of everyone except the Fallen, haven't uploaded them yet though. I couldn't get the [[flying drone]]s to transform either. They just seem to fly around wildly in robot mode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::Dang! The Fallen is the only one I can't get to either! And yeah, the flying drones are near-impossible to get a screencap of. I got a couple mid-transformation, but that's it. If any of your pics are better than mine, feel free to replace them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:55, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::::I went and got pics from Flight of the Bumblebee and Allspark Highway. Unfortunately I can't get pics of Ratchet from the later since robovision isn't up anymore! Darn! I'll upload them later. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:45, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I grabbed a screenshot of The Fallen finally. Man, that game is a memory hog. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:38, 25 February 2011 (EST)

== Countdown? ==

Sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a while back ago, there was a countdown to ROTF on the Main Page. Perhaps a countdown to DOTM would now be appropriate as it's so close?

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to program/insert/design/<insert verb here> a countdown on a wiki page (it's for another wiki). What template or whatever does that use? I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me.

Again, terribly sorry if this is the wrong place to say this...
 - [[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:02 PM, 22 February 2011 A.D.
:Dark of the Moon countdown based on Derik's ROTF code: {{#expr: ({{ #time: U |July 1, 2011}} - {{ #time: U }})/86400 round 0}} days until [[Dark of the Moon (film)|TF: Dark of the Moon]]! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (EST)

==When to omit "Transformers" from an article title==
So I got a hankering to remove the "Transformers" from [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and all of their related pages, since unlike [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]], there's just no good reason to break policy for them. There are [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|other video games that we drop the "TF" from]], and if "Prime" is too common a term, then what about "[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]" or "[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]"?

But then I decided to check out [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?ns0=1&search=Transformers&searchx=Search&limit=500 which pages use "Transformers" in their titles,] and holyyyyyyyy crap. I copy-pasted here all the ones I found that I thought could lose the "Transformers" without negating their meaning, destroying a phrase, or otherwise severely damaging the title. (I added an "(etc.)" to each one that represents a series of identically-worded pages):

[[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Animated (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)]] 
[[1-2-3 Transformers]] 
[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Legends]] 
[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: The Headmasters (video game)]] 
[[The Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Energon Within]] 
[[The Transformers Collection]] 
[[Transformers Quest]] 
[[Transformers Key Recovery: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Power Up: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed]] 
[[Transformers PD Type]] 
[[Transformers: The Animated Movie]] 
[[Transformers Generations]] 
[[Transformers: Rise of the Chevy Autobots]] 
[[Transformers Annual 1990]] (etc.) 
[[The Transformers Sticker Book (1986)]] 
[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)]] 
[[Transformers: The Junior Novel]] 
[[Look and Find Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Coloring and Activity Book and Crayons]] 
[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers: Learn to Count Activity Tablet]] 
[[Transformers The Reusable Sticker Book]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Storybook]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Guide]] 
[[Transformers Prime Time]] 
[[Transformers Mix & Match]] 
[[Transformers Comic issue 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers The Game (console)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Autobots/Decepticons]] 
[[Transformers History of Music 1984-1990]] 
[[Transformers: Mosaic]] 
[[Transformers Name Generator]] 
[[Transformers Battle Universe]] 
[[The Transformers: Binaltech & TF Collection Complete Guide]] 
[[The Transformers Comic Magazine]] 
[[Transformers Pop-Up Book]] 
[[Transformers Visualworks]] 
[[Transformers Tooth Tunes]] 
[[Transformers Tapestry]] 
[[Transformers Song Universe]] 
[[Transformers G1: Awakening]] 
[[Transformers Armada Annual 2004]] 
[[Transformers: Beginnings]] 
[[Transformers the Movie water]] 
[[Transformers: The Score]] 
[[Transformers: The Thirteen]] 
[[Transformers: War Within Omnibus]] 
[[Transformers: The Ride]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Mutating Card Game]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Jigsaw Puzzle]] 
[[Transformers: Kōtetsu no Yūki]] 
[[The Transformers Continuum: The Definitive Chronology]] 
[[The Transformers: Bumblebee]] 
[[Transformers Adventures]] (etc.) 
[[Top Trumps: Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Race for the Mini-Con Robots]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Battle Begins]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Secret of the Star Saber]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Autobots Strike Back]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 1]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 2]] 
[[Transformers Theme Song Collection]] 
[[The Transformers: Drift]] 
[[Transformers Revenge of the Fallen Annual 2010]] 
[[Transformers CyberToy]] 
[[Transformers Hall of Fame]] 
[[The Transformers: Ironhide]] 
[[Transformers Evo.]] 
[[The Transformers Legends of the Microns: Sound of Evolution Vol. 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Music Matrix]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide: Revenge]] 
[[Transformers: Battle for the Matrix]] 
[[Transformers: Coloring and Activity Book and Stickers]] 
[[Transformers: Activity Book and Gel Pen]] 
[[Transformers: Sector 7]] 
[[Transformers: Cybertron Adventures]] 
[[Transformers Cards]] 
[[Transformers RPMs: Devastator's Demise]] 
[[Cadbury's Transformers Card Game]] 
[[Ridiculous Legend Transformers]] 
[[Famicom How-to Manga: Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Transformers Caramel]] 
[[Transformers Comic-Magazin]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Extra Comic-Sonderheft]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Super-Auswahlband]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Energon Valentine's cards]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 1]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 2]]

For many of them, the choice to keep or drop the "TF" seems intuitive, and many others are in a grey area... but I'll be damned if I can put into words any kind of coherent rationale. I'm seriously thinking that we've outgrown the "drop extraneous 'TF's" rule. Back when we only had a few hundred pages, it made a certain kind of sense: Why bother writing out stuff like "Transformers: Generation 2" when just "Generation 2" is equally meaningful to everyone here? Besides, isn't every page about Transformers by default? But in the past five years, both the wiki and the subject matter have exploded, and with both so many fine-grain, obscure topics being covered and so much not-strictly-TF content we've added, I don't think the policy serves us anymore. It doesn't make things simple; it makes things arbitrary and unpredictable.

So unless someone can sum up our policy in a way that makes a lick of sense, I propose: '''If a topic has an official title, then that should be used in full as the title of the relevant articles.''' Period. So [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] would stay right where they are, and yes, [[Generation 2 (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)", [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)", etc. I don't think we'd need to make that change happen instantly, but we could slowly propagate it as people feel inclined to. I also think we can keep the parenthetical abbreviations and in-sentence references as short as they currently are; this is only about the titles.

Thoughts?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:What are these "Transformers"? -[[Special:Contributions/75.185.113.106|75.185.113.106]] 18:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I've always been for having the full name as article titles. (Maybe also drop the "(franchise)" disambigs, because durr, but that's other topic.) Not only do we keep the full name of the subject, it aids us in disambiguation (it's easier to have smaller sets of "Transformers: Cybertron" and "Cybertron" than a large set of just "Cybertron"). [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::I don't have an opinion on adding or removing "Transformers:" from articles (other than that adding it would perhaps make articles and reading unnecessarily longer - right now, I hate having to type out "Transformers Animated" before "The AllSpark Almanac"), but I do oppose removing (franchise). If there's one thing I hate, it's when there's one 'most important' page that goes undisamb'ed (like Spark) and you'll have to go through a lot of trouble to ensure it all is meant to link there. When I cleaned up the Lithone links for planet and species, nearly every single one link directed the wrong way. Same for D-HQ, AllSpark vs Allspark, Junkion, Black Friday, etc. So, keep (franchise). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:49, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I too think "Transformers: " should be kept as well as " (franchise)". --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:46, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::I don't mind losing Transformers when it the prefix in a title that's the form of Transformers: <subtitle>, as in that case the subtitle itself is more the actual official name and "Transformers" is just tacked on as an extra identifier.

::::But in some of those things, Transformers is, well, a vital part of the thing's actual name. I mean, for instance, the Club's full official name ''is'' "Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club", so removing "Transformers" from it would be incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 03:00, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I don't think that distinction is clear enough to be workable anymore. Looking at that list, tons of them I have no idea which side of the divide they'd fall on. For instance, "[[Transformers Legends]]" is the proper title of the book; that's how it would be listed in any store or library, but for ''our'' purposes the "TF" is as extraneous as the one that we omit from [[Energon (comic)]] or [[Dinobots Strike Back]]. The "for our purposes" thing is so often so questionable... like, what would that dictate for [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]? It's definitely a subtitle situation like you described, but there are lots of non-TF "Ultimate Guide"s published by the same company... but we would never cover them, so for our purposes is the "TF" still redundant?
:::::I agree with Geewunling that it would be annoying to have to type out longer titles (though readability should be unchanged, since I think we could still truncate in-sentence references). But right NOW it's annoying that our lack of a coherent policy is making everything increasingly unpredictable. We're seeing a lot of creep in the form of stuff like [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and for some reason video games. So I don't even know what should be "corrected" anymore or how to decide the matter when creating a new article.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 13:58, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::::The annoyance of editors doesn't really enter into my consideration; the wiki is ultimately for the readers, not our convenience. If we have to do some more work for the best presentation, so be it. —Interrobang, not logged in

:I'm OK with moving articles to put Transformers into the title so long as we don't delete the redirects. If we move "Revenge of the Fallen (film)" to "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)", there are going to be a whole bunch of sites linking to the old URL, and I don't wanna have a repeat of the "(Shattered Glass)" thing where all the redirects get deleted and a whole lot of other sites are pointing to useless error pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:25, 23 February 2011 (EST)

=="(WFC)" vs. "(Prime)"==
There are currently [[Talk:Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#"(WFC)" instead of "(Prime)" for characters that originated in this franchise?|two]] [[Talk:Optimus Prime (Prime)#Move|discussions]] going about whether articles on subjects that originated in ''War for Cybertron''-branded fiction (the [[War for Cybertron games|games]], [[Transformers: Exodus|novel]], and [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|comic]]) should be titled "(WFC)" rather than "(Prime)". It was suggested that this should be brought up in the Community Portal, so here it is.

For the record, looking at [[War for Cybertron games#Featured Characters|this list]], right now we're using "(Prime)" for all named characters, even those currently exclusive to WfC, and "(WFC)" for all character ''types'' from the games. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the state of things.

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:46, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I completely agree with Jackpot. It is stupid we have an article called [[Ultra Magnus (Prime)]] stating "Ultra Magnus is an Autobot Wrecker from the WFC portion of the Aligned family continuity". I blame myself for not doing this a lot earlier, treating the WFC navbox as like a subsection of Prime when the novel was so clearly a tie-in to those games. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 18:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::WFC is a tie-in game. As I pointed out, how many Mini-Cons from the PS2 Transformers game use the disambiguator "(Transformers)"? And even then, what of novel-original characters? Do they get "(Exodus)"? And heck, didn't Exodus come out ''before'' WFC? Shouldn't the characters thusly use "(Exodus)" over "(WFC)" or "(Prime)"? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::: The book and game came out on the same day, as I recall. So... yeah. I'm completely against this. We used "Prime" because that was the name we WERE using for the continuity family; frankly, I find this wishy-washy "aligned continuity family" thing pretty lame. The core of the damn family is the Prime cartoon. It is THE central feature, and will be THE major fictional outlet and -almost assuredly- what future non-show fictions will adhere more closely to. I don't see the point in all this subdividing and adding more parantheticals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:19, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::I find it ''extremely'' hard to believe that if Hasbro's "decade" plan goes through, ''Prime'' is the last franchise we're going to see spring from it. Even Aaron Archer thinks "Prime" is a bad name for the overall deal. Given what a fractured start it's already off to, I think separating out the "family" foundation is the only sensible thing to do. So that's why [[Aligned continuity family]] exists.
::::As for the "(WFC)" notion, I'm not as personally attached to that, even though I do think it's the correct thing to do. Mostly I think that WfC needs to be acknowledged as an entity unto itself, not just a subset of ''Prime''. Strictly from a branding point of view, it ISN'T a subset; nothing has been both WfC- and Prime-branded. It's not just the title of a video game; it's in the titles of [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|a comic]] and [[Transformers: Exodus|a novel]], plus they've made [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#Toys|toys from it]] that definitely don't fit the ''Prime'' brand. (True, the toys aren't labeled "WfC", but that's par for the course with ''Generations'' anyway. At the very least, it's a grey area.) Beyond branding, it just has a unique aesthetic and sensibility that's very different from ''Prime''.
::::Based on all that, the best place WfC fits in our schema is as a "franchise", to my judgement. "''Prime'' tie-in" doesn't cut it.
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:55, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::WFC is not ''just'' a tie-in game. It has [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fcfb1b5-19b9-f369-10be-e91a2108d9ab online bios] and [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172 online timeline]. Hasbro made it its own thing. Franchise-like. Before any Prime show started we learned from the timeline that [[Megatron (Prime)|D-16]] was an Energon mine laborer and rose to prominence in secret gladiatorial combat and took the name "Megatron". So [[Megatron (Prime)]] had a whole history before the show even existed. The non-show characters with the (Prime) disambiguation also shows it doesn't quite fit. I'd go for WFC. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:35, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::AGAIN, Exodus came out the SAME DAY. So why does WFC get prominence? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:56, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::Because that's the phrase that's used in the names of [[War for Cybertron games|all]] [[Transformers: Exodus|the]] [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|media]]. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:02, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I don't see how the subline "The official history of the war for Cybertron" is the exact same as "War For Cybertron: The Vidya Game". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:24, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::I agree. Aside from three (ambiguous) words on the book's front, there's not much that says it's part of the WFC "franchise". Same for Generations. If they wanted to, they could have made figures of every War for Cybertron character and released it in a toyline explicitly called "Transformers: War for Cybertron". But they didn't; they just released five toys based on WFC designs and released them under Generations, so Generations is a WFC toy line as much as it is a G1 one (actually, probably more of G1 considering how very few WFC toys there were). The video games are only different because of hardware limitations, so having multiple games with the same title does not a franchise make. Having a website with bios and everything is a moot point, because almost every video game has that. The comic, I'll give you that one, but I don't think it's a franchise if it's a game and a tie-in comic with a limited release. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:30, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::For what it's worth, when you [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/movie-news/Transformers-War-for-Cybertron.cfm click on "War For Cybertron"] it brings up all the Generations toys. I also think the WFC timeline ties in Exodus to WFC since the events in the comic and timeline are basically from the book. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::It also brings up PCC Icepick (item 12 of 12, on page 2). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:52, 28 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::The WfC-branded timeline and comic both cover events in ''Exodus''. Hell, the comic was written by the same dude. I don't understand the logic that says that the "War for Cybertron" in the novel's title doesn't mean the same thing. If there were a novel called "Deuteronomy: The Official History of the Beast Wars" set during the events of the cartoon, I wouldn't be trying to say it was part of the ''Beast Machines'' franchise.
::::::::Let me put in a slightly different light: Because franchises are branding-based, not continuity-based, I'm not comfortable with the ''Prime'' franchise being stretched to include all this stuff that doesn't have the ''Prime'' label on it. Yes, it's clearly all RELATED, story-wise, but that's what [[Aligned continuity family|continuity pages]] are for. This feels like taking ''Machine Wars'' (which is the opposite kind of sparse: a toyline with virtually no fiction) and rolling it into G2. Sure, they're in the same family, and there are connections between the two, but they're not marketed with the same label, so we don't do it. Before ''Prime'' existed, there were these other forms of media sharing a unique title (that even got the TF-logo lockup treatment!) and covering common ground. Then ''Prime'' showed up, and so far the two labels have not been seen on the same product. To me, that means two franchises.
::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::But... there is no overarching label on the products we have poked into the WFC "Franchise". "Transformers: War for Cybertron" has its own logo which is also on the tie-in comic, and Exodus has its own logo. They're still prequels to TF:Prime. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:33, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::::I guess I just see the "War for Cybertron" in the title of ''Exodus'' as having more meaning than you do. Yeah, Hasbro could've been more blatant if they'd wanted to, but it's still clearly telling the reader it's part of the same deal as the WfC games and comic, without making any reference to ''Prime'' (or vice-versa). I can imagine a situation where the ''Prime'' branding might retroactively subsume WfC, like how the "Wreckers" comic was given the ''Universe'' brand (they say there's another game coming out, after all). But that hasn't happened yet, so in the meantime I say WfC doesn't belong under the ''Prime'' franchise.
::::::::::Anyway, at this point if we don't see eye-to-eye, we probably won't, so I'm going to shut up now.
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:What about the next thing after ''Prime'' that is in the Modern/Aligned continuity? We would have a new disambiguation, like, "Spike (Next Franchise)." and characters that have never been in Prime, like "Ultra Magnus (Prime)." Kind of confusing. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::No it isn't. The idea that WFC/Exodus are part of a big wad of continuity colloquially known as "Prime", and referred to as "Prime" because the "Prime" cartoon is THE core of the whole shebang, and will liekly BE said core for the near future, is not a hard one. It only gets confusing when you start letting obfuscating pedantry in, at which point you're only making more work for no payoff and making things harder for our readers. A trend which seems to keep coming up over and over again, I've noticed... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:09, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::I'm pretty sure I've had my share of "obfuscating pedantry" moments, but I completely agree with Siph on this one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:18, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::For the record, if people really think that using "(WFC)" would be confounding to readers, that's not a decision I'm very invested in. This discussion has ballooned into bigger issues that I ''do'' feel more strongly about, but the parenthetical itself is very take-it-or-leave-it for me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I would at the least support migrating characters who have thus far ''only'' appeared in WFC to the appropriate parenthetical.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:55, 1 March 2011 (EST)
:And move them back if they appear in Prime? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 11:03, 1 March 2011 (EST)
::Yes. I think that would make the most sense to people looking for the characters.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::I am willing to make this compromise for the time being. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 14:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)

==War For Cybertron==
War for cybertron is a relativley new game, but it is a great one. I am kind of new on this website, but to me, it looks like the War For Cybertron title has gotten mixed up with Transformers: Prime, a completley diffrent universe. also, WFC is G1 Canon. All the WFC pages and articles should be labled on G1, MAJOR cleanup is needed. {{unsigned|Holymoses|06:30, March 3, 2011 (EST)}}
:You clearly ''are'' quite new, because we would advise you to read [[Aligned continuity family|this article]] before you start in on this notion. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 06:33, 3 March 2011 (EST)
:In Hasbro's own words: "The TRANSFORMERS brand team would like to confirm that Transformers War for Cybertron video game, Transformers Exodus novel, and the Transformers Prime television show are in the same aligned continuity. Hasbro is creating a single continuity to tell the bulk of our TRANSFORMERS stories going forward." Here's the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/8189/20/ link] to the announcement --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 06:45, 3 March 2011 (EST)
::You aren't completely wrong. The game developers were heavily inspired by G1, and were pretty much making a G1 game as far as they knew. It's just that, like Khajidha said, Hasbro says War for Cybertron is part of the same continuity as Prime, so that's what the wiki goes with. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:00, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Well that still seems weird, since "Prime" has a completley diffrent story, and "Exodus" doesnt connect the two sagas very well. even if its what Hasbro said, i think we should put all this into consideration, Aaron Archer himself said that War for Cybertron was a game set in the G1 Universe. I think its wrong of Hasbro to try and connect the two diffrent Continuities. {{unsigned|Holymoses|09:12, March 4, 2011 (EST)}}
:First of all, when did Aaron Archer say that? Second, Hasbro gets to define what is in each continuity for the simple reason that it is their intellectual property. It may not be to your liking, but it cannot be wrong as they are the ones who determine what is right. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, gonna need a source on that Archer statement. Especially since he's been amongst the ones saying WFC/Exodus is part of the new continuity. Also, weren't a lot of elements in WFC, like Dark Energon, Hasbro mandates from a story bible they supplied the creators (hereby proving that Hasbro's intent was always for it to be part of the new continuity), or am I imagining things again? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:08, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::From what I read about that production bible, it is a result of guys at Hasbro sitting down and "[http://collider.com/roberto-orci-jeff-kline-interview-transformers-prime/75039/ coalescing all the mythologies] that they had institutionally for years. Actually putting it down to paper." It sounds like they were just collecting and not adding new stuff in. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Energon were added ''after'' it was in the game. And what about timing? Orci said Hasbro put together the bible after the movies came out (in mid 2009). The video game came out in mid 2010 with a video game lead time of ??? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::Unless Dark Energon is actually just the new name for Angolmois energy. The name may have been taken from the video game, but the concept could well have been in the production bible before WFC. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:37, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::What a load of supposition and crap. I hereby dub it "crapposition". I can pretty much say that you are completely wrong. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::::[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/05/interview-matt-tieger-of-high-moon-studios-on-transformers/ Matt Tieger said] that High Moon started working on WfC when they shipped their "Bourne" game, which according to the accompanying notes was mid-2008, between the first movie and RotF. [http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/interviewtransformerswarforcybertron2.html This interview] talks up the G1 inspiration and then says the WfC storyline is "a completely original story that we made up at High Moon. We worked closely with Hasbro..." The consistent impression I've gotten from several different interviews is that High Moon started from G1 and then made pitches to Hasbro, which Hasbro would provide feedback on, and eventually there was a game. The only people who I've seen actually talk about the 400-page story-bible are the ''Prime'' creators. And if Orci was being literal when he said the bible was put together "after the movie’s came out", then game development would've indeed started earlier. At the very least, it sounds pretty likely that there was some simultaneous creation.
:::::In the end, the chicken-and-egg question is basically moot because either way, WfC is part of the new deal. It doesn't matter who said the words "Dark Energon" first; it's part of the structure that binds all of the pieces, so that's that. But for nitpicking's sake, Starfield's suppositions aren't off-base from the evidence we have. Siph, if you have additional info that clarifies or contradicts any of that, please share.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::::I, similarly, have found it quite plausible when thinking on the subject to believe that High Moon could have created the idea of Dark Energon, and that Hasbro then said to themselves "We can use THAT!" and put it in the bible. It's certainly outside the realm of possibility, unless you know something we don't, Siph. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 05:24, 5 March 2011 (EST)

:Because nothing whatsoever can change in the millions of years between the WFC era and the Prime cartoon era. And yeah, good luck sourcing that Aaron claim. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
I think that if they were in the game or in Exodus:The Offical History of the War for Cybertron, they should be labled (WFC),but if they poped into the Prime teley-show or comics, they should be labled (Prime).-[ [User:DinoDigger97|DinoDigger97]] 2:11 3 Apil 2011

== Captured-Prey ads ==

One of the things advertised there appears to be a fan-made Megatron min-figure. Seeing as how everybody was upset that the TFSource ad [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive47#TFsource_ad_buy|featured fansproject stuff]], surely, this isn't right either? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 05:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)
:Check the section back up this page titled [[#Project_Wonderful_ads|Project Wonderful ads]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 8 March 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen video game character articles - [X] Scout 1, [X] Scout 2 pages for the same design ==

With the upcoming DOTM games, I thought I should look at the ROTF game articles that were abandoned in 2009 and see if I could do anything for them. I believe it was Derik who made this decision, but I am now wondering if it is necessary to have say [[Aerialbot Scout 1]] and [[Aerialbot Scout 2]], [[Omnibot Scout 1]] and [[Omnibot Scout 2]] (and so on) considering "Scout 1" and "Scout 2" are just the two different colour schemes for these mass produced generic, nameless characters who only differ in terms of textures. Any completed articles on these will have different images, but exactly the same information. Isn't that redundant? Should we perhaps just stick both of each under Aeriabot Scout, Omnibot Scout, Stunticon Scout? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:14, 11 March 2011 (EST)
:According to the articles the two Aerialbot Scouts have different health, primary weapon and secondary weapon ratings. Is that enough for separation? I don't know, but it should be considered before making a decision. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 11 March 2011 (EST)
::I don't even know where those stats came from - I don't believe the person who filled them in originally ever explained. Were they from a website, article or guide book? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:42, 11 March 2011 (EST)

== Found some much needed images, but... ==

I found them on [http://transformersiv.mforos.com/1519135/8979801-transformers-g1-aventuras-y-nostalgias-que-nunca-moriran/ this site], and I don't speak the language (I think it's Spanish) to ask for their permission to use them. The images are covers of the [[Marvel Books]] titles [[Battle at Oil Valley]], [[Summertime Coloring Book]], and [[Super Activity Book]]. That's right we don't even have an article for that last one. They also have page scans of these and other Marvel Books titles. I don't feel right just taking them for our use here and was wondering if someone who spoke the lingo would contact them for us. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 12 March 2011 (EST)
:Nevermind, Google Chrome finally remembered that it had translational abilities. The poster is offering them for download to all and sundry, so he/she can hardly care if we borrow them. I'll probably still insert a link to the main site out of courtesy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:22, 12 March 2011 (EST)
::After looking at them, I realized that they were Steve Stonebreaker's scans. I have contacted him and received permission to use them here. I'll be adding more soon. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 16 March 2011 (EDT)

== Hey, I've got a new user talk page template request... ==
[[Image:Rebirth1 Hardhead and Blurr.jpg|right|thumb|300px|TOO MANY QUOTES]]
Can we have one that reminds folks that every new thing in Transformers that even vaguely reminds you of an old thing in Transformers IS NOT A REFERENCE AND THAT IS NOT HOW REFERENCES WORK AND STOP PUTTING THEM IN THE "TRANSFORMERS REFERENCES" SECTION. Ahem. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:18, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:You mean like [[Template:notareference|this]]? --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:22, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
::Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:30, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:::Brilliant. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:39, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::That's an oldie, but a goodie. Personally, I'm wondering if there's any template that can be set up for the people that just drown episode articles in quotes... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:42, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::I think we'd first need a consensus on how many quotes are appropriate. [[User:JW|JW]] 07:41, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::It's a conversation that needs to be had, I think. You have to take length of the story into account - there are more quotes in a two hour movie than in a twenty five minute episode. I'd put the early cutoff at around five for episodes, though. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 08:00, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I like the idera of a mximum of 5 per 30 minutes (or part thereof) for Episodes & movies, but what would be a good size for comics? I'd say around 3 per issue, but it breaks down with short issues and back up stories (i.e.e most of the Marvel UK exclusive stuff...) [[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 10:19, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'd set a "soft" limit higher for 30-minute episodes {{m-}} around 10 quotes {{m-}} and I'd allow more than that if the episode was particularly well-written or quotable. I don't think there's any need for a low, hard limit, as I don't think lots of quotes hurt the wiki until we get into "quoting the whole darn episode" territory. Heck, in fact, I might favor a policy of ''judging each quote for itself.'' I.e., if a quote is good/noteworthy/illustrative/funny/wadeva, it can be kept, even if there are two dozen other quotes already. Each must stand on its merits, but there would be no hard cap. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yeah, some episodes happen to have a lot of funny/significant/memorable lines, others don't. If we set a hard cap, we might be damning ourselves to a lot of pointless fights over which quotes deserve to be included under the arbitrary limit. I'm more in favor of making a list of criteria that we can point to when we weed lame quotes out.
:::::::::Oh, and I support making a template. ''Prime'' Soundwave is the best character I can think of to use, but Movie Bumblebee or G1 Wreck-Gar would also be appropriate. Or a shot of G1 Soundwave with a tape inside of him? Can't think of a good header, though...
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 11:49, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::I mainly suggested it as a starting point because if it comes down to putting each quote in place based on "which one we like more" the talk pages are going to be absolutely horrible. HOW CAN YOU LEAVE OUT MY FAVORITE QUOTE IT IS SO FUNNY AND RELEVANT. The "5 per 30 minutes" is just a suggestion - obviously an episode that's really funny or poignant can get more. Comics issues we could maybe use pagecount as a starting point. But basically, combine the two ideas. A list of criteria is a good idea, but we also need to avoid having like, thirty quotes for a given story, twelve of which are totally shitty. If we get over five-six quotes, it's time to think about trimming, just because seriously, 90% of TF fiction isn't that goddamned quotable - or there are better places for the quotes. "I don't rock and roll - I burn!" belongs on Inferno's page, not on the episode it appeared in. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:51, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::Fair enough. Just so long as the number is sufficiently "soft" that we don't forget that our goal is high quality, not an arbitrarily low quantity. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:17, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Exactly. Like I said, I think we can also judiciously use key ''character'' quotes on the ''characters''' pages. Some quotes are very episode/story specific, while others provide insight into a character's personality or mindset. I think that's a good way to winnow the chaff, you know? -hx at work not logged in gotta run
::::::::::::::The 5-6 quotes before we start trimming sounds good, especially if some more individual character based quotes can be moved to the character pages. The big problem I keep seeing with quotes is that too many people want to quote an entire scene. If it goes beyond 3 lines it's probably not what we mean by quote here. And even 3 lines is pushing it. These should really be a single line quip or a two line set up and pay off. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:22, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::5 to 6 sounds like a good starting point to me as well. Khajidha makes a good point about the definition of quote. That, along with Hooks' point about using key character quotes on that character's article, should be pointed out on [[Help:Example episode article]], once it exists. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
What about block quotes? The page for Transformers (2007) is full of them. I think there should be a limit on how long the quote can be.--[[User:Megatron Prime|Megatron Prime]] 16:48, 19 May 2011 (EDT)
== Maybe a silly question, can we? ==

Ok, exposing my ignorance here, but isthere a way to search the wiki by alt-mode? If I wanted to know every TF that turns into a Helicopter say? There's not a "helicopter" catagory, so howwould I find them all? Thanks for any help.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:59, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]] covers some characters. There's been a few vague proposals to create a new hierarchy of categories for altmodes, but it would be a lot of work, and it's generally shouted down. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:08, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:I think the current best option if you want to do something like this is TFU.info's Identify section. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 11:00, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

==Grimlock letter==
[[Image:Grimlock letter.jpg|thumb|right]]
I recently acquired this and thought it's exactly the sort of thing we should be covering. I had no idea it even existed until a friend sent it to me and on that thought, should we add letters from Soundwave, Ratchet(?), Dreadwind and Blaster to the Holy Grails? Was there a similar response from the US comic, and do Titan still send these letters out today from Starscream? Enquiring minds want to know. Incidentally, he said he got Tailgate as his free mini-toy. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:31, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
:Good find. A letter from Grimlock is pretty awesome. That should go somewhere. The Letters Page page? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:58, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
::I've added a link from there; I'll type it up verbatim if we think it's justified? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:09, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

== Voice actors by series ==

We have a bunch of categories for voice actors by language, but I was wondering if we should have categories for voice actors by series? Would categories like "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Victory voice actors" be useful? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:27, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

:That could be useful. It'd be better than looking up cast lists and opening up every character page, at least. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:30, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

::Sound like a nice idea to me. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 10:01, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

== "Just Stop" Notice? ==

Do we think there's a role for the following proposed user notice template, for users like Eagc7?

{{messagebox|image_name=War_War_Stop_It.jpg|image_width=225px|width=90%|header=Just Stop|message_text=Please stop editing this wiki. While you haven't done anything ban-worthy (yet), you are not a productive contributor. (The reasons ''why'' are above this notice on your talk page.) So, please, '''just stop.'''}}

Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 14:39, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:If one is created, I love this image for it! --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 15:35, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::It seems a bit rude, but the image would be ''perfect'' if this is made. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 15:45, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:::If this gets phrased differently, I'd support it. Right now, the text's too rude. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:52, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::::I think it is meant to be rude and probably should be rude. This tag is designed to be placed on the talk pages of people who have seemingly ignored the multiple instances of other tags. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:57, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

I'm a little iffy on this proposal. I admit that Eagc7 has a very poor grasp of the English language, but I'm a little uncomfortable with telling a person to leave a site just because of that. If you look over his fiction edits (the ones you can read) the posts he has made are accurate, just...occasionally unreadable. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:02, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
:I'm with SFH. Eagc7's English seems to be all over the place, but there are times when he gets it more or less correctly and only needs minor typo fixes. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:21, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Whether a person's edits are bad enough (and bad enough all the time enough) to ask them to never post again seems like something that shouldn't be in the hands of, well, everybody. Putting a template up that says you're a bad speller or that you're not using Preview enough... that's pretty straight forward. But I dunno if I'm comfortable with giving us all a tool to shame each other off the wiki entirely. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:49, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:In addition, if someone's edits are so bad (and so consistently bad) that they're more of a nuisance than they are helpful, then that person should probably just be gotten rid of, instead of getting the Middle Finger Personified In A Template. As Detour said, yeah, Eagc7's English could use some work, but he does enough good here that I don't think he's completely poison or anything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
I could maybe get behind the idea of a "Stop editing until you've read the complaints on your user page" template for the blissfully unaware people constantly making edits that are being undone as soon as they make them whilst ignoring comments on their user page telling them what they're doing wrong. But a template like THIS, and this sort of behavior in general, is how we end up with trolls that come by and vandalize the wiki on a daily basis for years and years. We could avoid that sort of future headache by just not being all-out douchebags to people even if they're stupid and/or their contributions are annoying. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:15, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:I suppose the only problem with making a "read your talk page" template is that they'll never read it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:24, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::: I like this idea, too. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::Got me there. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:36, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:This will not go well. If someone's a real pest here, ban them. If they're being a pest but not quite that bad yet, notify them on their talkpage with whichever templates are already needed, and then if they don't clean up, ban them. We shouldn't be creating--publicly--an underclass of users. If you're allowed to have an account here, you're allowed to post--otherwise we look scummy. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 19:17, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::This is basically every stereotype of this wiki and its userbase given textbox form. I love it. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 20:33, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

The consensus seems to be against it, and the arguments are all good ones. (Kind of a pity, since the image was so perfect, but...) I withdraw the suggestion. Thanks all for weighing in! [[User:JW|JW]] 20:25, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:It is a good template despite the rudeness, but it is potentially necessary for extreme conditions as a last resort. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Is it possible that we could reuse that image for another template? Perhaps a Final Warning template, letting users know that if they don't cut their shit out, they're gonna get banned. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:42, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
: Clearly it should be used for a "stop edit/revert warring" template. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:32, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

== Our Blogger blog? ==

To me it appears that our blog doesn't have much use. Our twitter sends out links to occasional pages and our facebook is an easy place to congregate and talk about TFs and not take up our talk pages, but the blog hasn't been used in over half a year.

I'm thinking using it to keep track of current trends and such. We could highlight pages that are being worked on, point out users who have been creating/adding a lot to pages (i.e. Geewunling creating minor GI Joe pages, Chris McFeely going crazy with the Japanese food tie-ins). This way an editor or lurker who happens to miss a few days can easily catch up rather than having to sift through the new pages and new files (and even then if a page has just had an entirely new writeup from a stub, it wouldn't show up there).

Any thoughts on this? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:21, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

:I think it would be a good way to draw attention to obscure and/or new stuff on the Wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:46, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
::I think so, too, but there are questions left unanswered if we want to go ahead with this. Who would be given control over the posts? Should it be extra mod duties or instead given to some other veteran editors? If so, how many? Would we want weekly updates or something with less frequency? Overall, who is in the current position to grant other users the power to add posts. I can see this as a useful too, but like many things on this wiki, we need to come up with some sort of procedure before it comes to fruition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:33, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

==TFwiki in the past week==
Could someone tell me why the TFwiki has been down/inaccessible for most of the time in the past week? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:04, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:I would wager "massive spikes in traffic, as DotM stuff hits," which has happened before.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::I thought traffic wouldn't be a likely cause since the third movie is still over a month away. Guess I was wrong. Thanks! [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:27, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:::There's at least some clamor now that the toys are out there.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:46, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::::Technical explanation or non-technical? Traffic HAS picked up a bit, the wiki hardware (such as it is) is slightly overtaxed, and we need to start doing some math on what we can separate into other servers, and how much it'll cost to do so.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:15, 13 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::Cowboy time. We've moved the application server and cache to another box, and synced over the contents. If anything's missing, we can try to sync it over from the old webserver, but it wouldn't be off by more than a few minutes, so here's hoping that we're back in business!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:43, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::No wonder the connection becomes smooth again recently. Nice Works!! --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:45, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Yeah, I'd noticed that the site was back to normal. Thanks for the hard work. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:52, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::Thanks for fixing our wiki! [[User:JW|JW]] 07:15, 18 May 2011 (EDT)

== Eagc7's movie comic section edits ==

Lately Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is good. However, Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is bad. I know he tries, but whenever he does this sort of thing, he just ends up creating work for somebody else to clean up, and frankly, it's easier to write stuff from scratch than it is to fix somebody's spelling & grammar, as well as trying to make the text fit the tone and style of the paragraphs surrounding it (which is important considering the Foundation comics take place during the other Movie prequel comics). I haven't read Foundation and Rising Storm, [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eagc7 so I can't fix all of this myself], but that seems like a fair bit of work to fix at a time when the wiki was experiencing random downtime and BotCon is rapidly approaching (meaning a good chunk of our regular editors will not be able to edit much, and in any case would be updating stuff about/from BotCon). Like I said, I know he's trying, and he's getting much better than he used to be, but... maybe he should leave fiction edits to the professionals. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:27, 18 May 2011 (EDT)
:Take it up with him via his Talk Page or the E-mail a User link. If there's really a stylistic problem, then we need a Style Guide for new users to reference.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:04, 19 May 2011 (EDT)

==Page views==
Where have they gone? I believe that they have disappeared from down the pages since the move a few weeks ago. Can they be put back? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:09, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
: I don't recall pageviews... What in specific are you talking about? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:12, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::I guess [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Popularpages popular pages]? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::Yeah those, how often a page has been visited. I kinda liked keeping tabs on relative popularity in pages (like how Mayumi and Shinichi ''never'' lost their 2:1 view ratio). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:24, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::The broken popular pages has apparently been a thing lately, as I noticed Abates was removing and re-adding the link to [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]] earlier this month. Maybe he knows more about it? --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 18:41, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::No more than anyone else. I noticed it was gone and removed it from the template, but then it came back when we did the move so I readded it. I guess it got removed again, possibly for performance reasons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:58, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::::If I had to make a poorly-educated guess, the pageview thing sounds exactly like one of the many things I had to remove from Shortpacked.com to keep it from lagging so so badly. Lots of neat little things like page tracking and stuff like that used to be on there, but they were more trouble, resources-wise, than they were worth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I didn't change anything, but I generally make it a point to keep away from the Mediawiki software config, for fear of breaking that which I don't understand. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 13:07, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
::::::::May have been Scout I guess? Looks like [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDisableCounters $wgDisableCounters] got turned on at some point anyway. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:02, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Wait, that WAS me. $wgDisableCounters is supposed to be off for squid-cached installations anyway, since it doesn't actually work when you add a cache. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 21:26, 12 June 2011 (EDT)

== Why is Melissa from Kiss Players on the same Page as Marissa Faireborn from G1? ==

I know they are some how connected ,but i see the two as different as G1 Starscream is to Animated Starscream ,maybe the same history ,but a little different.--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Michael Alex Kawa]] 10:43, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
:They are related in the same way that Orion Pax is related to G1 Optimus Prime. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 10:51, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
: Marissa = Marissa. Same continuity and everything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:02, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

== I don't know if this was what you are looking for when you asked for Kiss Players radio play translations ,but i hope this helps . ==

I found this on Youtube cause I LOVE Melissa and noticed in that Holy Grail thingy that you guys needed Kiss Players radio play translations .I hope this helps ,even if it doesn't it is still pretty cool and CUTE .I did not make it so that is noted .Here is the link so you guys can go and look to see if it what is needed ,it is the only one i can find ,if it helps i will try to find more .[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZvUg2c649Y]
--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 18:25, 2 June 2011 (EDT)

I also found this site ,it gives a brief description of the radio play ,again i hope this helps .[http://www.toyvey.com/kisskiss/radioplay/index.html]--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 14:32, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
:I haven't looked at the material myself yet (I'm afraid it'll make me have to clean myself until I bleed to get the stain out) but if it's legit, then thank you very, VERY much. This stuff needs to be cataloged to serve as a warning to future generations. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 07:25, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

== The multiverse ==

So, at BotCon, Aaron Archer declared the Aligned continuity separate from the old, more meta multiverse. How does everyone want to approach this? Separate the aligned information about Primus, Unicron and the members of the 13, or keep it together for easy access and lack of confusion just as one article covers the various versions of the Matrix, or Energon, or the AllSpark? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 05:06, 6 June 2011 (EDT)

== Moving from Wikia ==

Hello guys, can anyone give me some advice about how to leave Wikia? I mostly need advice about easily moving content. I found that Wikia provides a database dump as an XML file with all page content except files, and with the page histories. I really need to have the page histories. I installed MediaWiki on my PC for testing, with EasyPHP for the database, and importing the XML file actually doesn't work. It says "Import failed: Loss of session data. Please try again." So I guess I set up my database too quickly and forgot some things. This was just for quick testing after all. Did you follow that template for moving, or something else? I'd really appreciate any advice and help from you! Cheers. [[User:Klow|Klow]] 07:36, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:Right out of the gate, you need to go over EVERY page you download before you go live, because Wikia inserted code that provides linkbacks to Wikia in them, meaning your pages will be providing THEM with hits. I do not know exactly what process is involved, but it's a scumfuck move of theirs that you should be aware of. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:18, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
::Nice to know, thanks. But what about what I mentioned above? How do I start and all? [[User:Klow|Klow]] 17:46, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:::A helpful resource for leaving Wikia is the [http://awa.shoutwiki.com/ Anti-Wikia Alliance site], which has useful info on departing from Wikia. The "loss of session data" usually means that you just have to try again. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:02, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:I'm just the server architecture guy, so I can't help with the XML import, but let me warn you right now, Mediawiki for a moderate-traffic site is a PIG. Get a server geek to help you out, as we've got a buttload of cache, and STILL have performance issues from time to time. It's all stuff I can probably fix, if I ever have the free time to dedicate to the problem, but it's definitely a big old pain in the rear. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 08:27, 22 June 2011 (EDT)
::Shoutwiki has been down for some time now, so the Anti-Wikia Alliance can't really help... :/ McFly, you mean I shouldn't stick to Mediawiki? [[User:Klow|Klow]] 07:23, 23 June 2011 (EDT)
:::I mean that you should make sure that whoever you've got really knows how to tweak your wiki installation to stand up to the traffic. Wikia is terrible at a great many things. Providing high-availability Mediawiki service to their userbase is NOT one of them.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 12:15, 24 June 2011 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-06-22T12:27:48Z

McFly: /* Moving from Wikia */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


==Didn't we have a Transformers Appearances/References in Other Media page?==
I could have sworn we did, mentioning stuff like Family guy etc. If we don't have such a page, would it be allowed to be created? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 11:53, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:Unless it's officially sanctioned by Hasbro, no, we do not mention Transformer appearances in other media. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:54, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:: If it ever existed, it would have been destroyed with fire in about 30 seconds. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:46, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::: Of course, if we did have such a page, we could use it as a lighting rod, keep anons from adding something to Soundwave's page every time Seth Green says the word "transformers." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:28, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Of course, NO. Discussion over. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Discussion not quite over. If the unofficial nature of the topic is the reason why it is not allowed, then there are several articles that already exist that are pushing boundaries on the wiki. I would have thought that the biggest problem would be it's size.[[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 09:26, 20 December 2010 (EST)
:::::Yeah, that'd be the other big reason. There's so many such references it would be impossible to keep track of them all. It would also involve making sure what's added there is actually a TF reference. And given all the Toms, Dicks and Harrys that'll come out of the woodwork to add such stuff, that's going to be more trouble than not having a page. Best not to get a larger headache for the sake of reducing a smaller one. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:44, 20 December 2010 (EST)

=="Knockoff warning" for toy sections?==
Just something that occurred to me... as I skimmed this page http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 and looked at alllllll the "could be mistaken for real and paid stupid money for" knockoffs... is there any objection to some form of link to this in the relevant toy sections? Sadly, the page lacks a "jump to" feature of any kind, but alerting people to the potential danger of dropping several hundred on what they think is a genuine Defensor box set... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:50, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:I think it skirts the line with our "we don't really discuss knockoffs" policy, but on the other hand, yeah, it's a useful bit of information, almost to the point where we could stand to have a special page about ''these specific knockoffs''. I am not opposed to adding a link to that site, no, as long as it's got a massive and specific caveat attached to it (maybe even with a special template box thing ("A Prime Problem"-themed perhaps?)). Hell, maybe the highendtfs people would be willing to throw up navigation in exchange for the inevitable deluge of hits - anyone got contact info for the owner? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 09:11, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::It's worth noting that there are some very well-done Henkei seekers knockoffs now, too. The really expensive ones even, like Thundercracker. Their sections could use warnings as well. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:56, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::Are they in knockoff PACKAGING that is meant to look like the real thing? That's the really tricky part. G1 MIB shit is much, much more expensive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:27, 19 December 2010 (EST)
::::Yes, they are: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/buyer-beware-update-on-ko-henkei-seekers/20380/ -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:03, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::I am not sure I want to attach more template boxes to pages as is. Especially over something like knockoffs. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:55, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::I'd ''thought'' about a template, but... ehn. I think a simple link under the TFU.info (or whatever), perhaps with a bolded "'''Knockoff alert'''" text. Like...

::::*''[http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 '''Knockoff alert''': More information on packaged imitations of this toy at HighendTFs.com]''

:::Thoughts? This would ONLY cover stuff that is in packaging meant to deceive you by looking as real as they can get it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:05, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::::I could agree with that. This is a step beyond your standard knock off crap, some notice might be appropriate.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:44, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::::I think it is a good idea to have it, since it is useful. This is different from putting info of some KO or unlicensed products on the page. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:49, 19 December 2010 (EST)

== Extension:Oversight ==

Quite a few times I've seen admins delete and undelete pages to clean out bad revisions. Why they do this I have no idea, since we have [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Oversight the Oversight extension] installed.

Perhaps we should look into granting some people "oversighter" access? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 05:09, 25 December 2010 (EST)
:I've just noticed that deleting and then restoring pages in the manner mentioned above has the side effect of resetting a page's page views stats, so that's another point in favour of the Oversight extension. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:40, 11 January 2011 (EST)

== Wikipedia, revisited ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#The_.22Campaign_of_Deletion.22_against_the_Transformers_Wiki_Project_by_NotARealWord_and_TFWiki.net]

Just in case anyone's interested. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 10:54, 5 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log back in)
:NEWSFLASH: Nobody cares. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:21, 5 January 2011 (EST)

== Captcha to prevent spambots? ==

Is there any way we could implement captcha to account creation to prevent the spambot problem we're having now? I've seen other wikis use that measure. Maybe also disable new page creation by anons? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:56, 6 January 2011 (EST)
:We already have CAPTCHA implemented on the account creation service. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 13:09, 6 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log in)
::Never mind, then! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:30, 6 January 2011 (EST)

== Real world events by day Category ==

These of course comprise every date of the year. However, I notice recently people have been adding fictional events to these dates. That basically invalidates the Category, since it's no longer comprised of only real-world events. The fictional events should be moved out into another section, or the category name should be changed to "Events by day". Thoughts? --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:01, 9 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree with changing to "Events by day". I would also support having separate fictional and real world sections on the pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:38, 9 January 2011 (EST)

== Project Wonderful ads ==

Um, guys, I found there [http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/53018-1293943633.gif Non-official products] in the ads of CapturedPrey. I know the small ads are showing up randomly (and may not be controllable since we can't regulate them), but I think it is still need to be reported here. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 01:04, 16 January 2011 (EST)
: I don't mind them in the non-permanent ads. TFSource used them all the time in their ads before we made them permanent sponsors. It was only when we made them a permanent sponsor did we ask to make them free of third-party product. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:57, 16 January 2011 (EST)

== Games <strike>fiction</strike> ==

Okay, now that [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] has flooded the character pages with stubs for 30 years worth of crappy Transformers games, can we reconsider how the Games sections are treated? I really don't think in-universe fiction descriptions are the way to handle it. [[War for Cybertron]] may've had a plot, but the majority of TF games are more in the vein of "hit things until they stop coming". A fiction section makes even less sense for games where the character selection is variable. ''"[[Hardhead (G1)#Transformers:_The_Headmasters|Hardhead]] may (or may not) have been present at this battle. Or this one. Or this..."'' Ditto for generic drone soldiers. Isn't there a way to address the games without trying to craft a sensical fiction for them? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:46, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree. The games should appear as merchandise on all relevant characters pages, but there is no need for a fiction write up for most games on those same pages. A generic write up on the game page should suffice. Something like "An Autobot warrior participated in a battle...", with a character box listing all potential "Autobot warriors" (aka playable characters). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Moving games to merchandise sounds awful. It would result in amazing amounts of lost information. I have no idea what doing that would solve. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:44, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::I think it depends on the game - for example in the ROTF console game, while you CAN play as multiple characters, the game provides a suggested one for you. IMO, that's who "actually" did the stuff depicted in the game (and the opposing side's campaign generally suggests it as well). When you can just pick from a half-dozen dudes and it doesn't matter, then maybe a brief summary of the game's plot and a note. "Jerkwagon was one of many Autobots involved in blah blah plot synopsis bluh. NOTE: Such-and-such game allowed players to choose multiple protagonists, including Jerkwagon." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 13:19, 25 January 2011 (EST)
I agree that Games should be their own section -- there's certainly enough of them, and they should be treated differently than keychains and what-not. But I think an out-of-universe description of the games would be better in most cases. Instead of having to write vague text like ''"As Ultra Magnus searched for the truth behind Optimus Prime's death, he battled Trypticon in a game of death and suffering."'', which is about all the plot I could wrangle out of [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy|Convoy no Nazo]] and tells you virtually nothing, we could write something more informative, like ''"Trypticon is the boss of Stage 10."'', and describe what actually happens in the game instead of trying to make it sound like believable fiction. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:29, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::My personal view on the matter is, from a character's page, I should be able to find EVERY place that character has appeared. And when we do list guys having an appearance when they're most likely an animation error in the far-background of an episode, I don't think there's any excuse to NOT list an appearance of a character wherever he might appear, including board and video games. Is that a lot of work? Yeah. But beneath all the jokes that make this place so great, this is still an encyclopedia, and purposely leaving out information out of an encyclopedia is wrong. Though I think Hooper X has the right idea... I doesn't have to be the most super-extensive write up. Heck, I was even going to suggest just having a link saying "See Return of Convoy article" or something like that. Also: I apologize if I had started getting very sloppy last night, but looking back, it was like 5 in the morning by the time I finished up. Yikes. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:10, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::I totally agree that the games should be dealt with on the character pages. I'm just looking for an option other than a completely in-fiction description. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 15:14, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::: The first idea that comes to mind is having a subsection called "Gameplay" or something like that for each game write-up, something that would be similar to a note? Though really, my main solution for stuff like that has been, up to this point, to just stick a couple of notes in the game write-up, like on [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s page. I'll keep on trying to think up other solutions though... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:26, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::Storylinks already serve as that, so what's the point of another link? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:47, 25 January 2011 (EST)

== Fiction order guide? ==

I've been over the Style guides a few times trying to find if a page like this already exists, but it doesn't look like it. I'll be the first to admit that when adding in new fiction/game subsections to a character's article, I sometimes confuse and probably put them out of order. So I've been wondering if a page that lists every fictional work and game in the proper order of each other would be a good idea? On one hand, it seems like an ABSURD amount of work for a style guide, one that would have to be CONSTANTLY updated as new things come out. On the other hand, it would be very handy to have a list to reference for character pages. Especially because it can get VERY frustrating trying to hunt down which book/cartoon/whatever came first in the same year. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about, here's an example I quickly put together, using the [[Cheetor (BW)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]] pages as reference.

When listing a character's media appearances, use this sorting order:
*Fiction
**Generation 1 Marvel Comics continuity
**Generation 1 S.T.A.R.S. pack-in flyers
**Generation 1 cartoon continuity
**Generation 1 Kid Stuff Talking Story Books
**Generation 1 Big Looker Story Books
**Generation 1 Ladybird Books continuity
**''Transformers in 3-D''
**''Transformers PD Type'' comic
**''Comic Bom Bom G-2'' comic
**Beast Wars First wave toy bios
**Beast Wars Cartoon continuity
***Dawn of Future's Past
***''Beast Wars'' cartoon
***Fast Action Battlers toyline
***3H ''Tales from the Beast Wars'' comics
***IDW ''Beast Wars'' comics
***''Transformers Legends'' anthology
***''Beast Machines'' cartoon
***''Beast Machines'' toy bio
***''Universe'' comic
***''Beast Wars Metals'' comic
***Beast Wars ''Henkei! Henkei!'' pack-in comic
**Generation 1 Dreamwave comics continuity
**''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''
**''Transformers/G.I. Joe''
**Generation 1 IDW comics continuity
**''Hearts of Steel''
**''Music Label''
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' (pack-in comic)
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' Bun Bun manga
**Alternity
**''Robot Heroes'' comic
**''Universe'' cartoon
**Wings of Honor

Is this a good idea? Would anyone actually like to see this kind of thing, or would I just be putting a whole bunch of work into something we don't need? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:28, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:We do need standardization of section names. The section order, however, depends on order in which the character appeared in those continuities in the real world. Then the subsections are ordered by the fictional chronology. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:35, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::No wonder I get confused by this fiction order thing. @_@ I guess I might just be one of those people that will never get the hang of some of these things. And yeah, the section names was definitely something else I wanted to tackle, since I've seen at times no less than four different ways to refer to a certain media. I sometimes have to check the storylinks at the end to be sure it's all part of the same story! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:45, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Note that, within a continuity, flashbacks and time travel can mean that experiential fictional chronology for one character requires a different order of headings than for another. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:16, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::In regards to standardization, I have an idea. What if we create a list of headers (kept on this page perhaps) used on Optimus Prime (G1)'s page (probably has the greatest number of different headers), use that as our initial standards list, then update it as we find other headers or decide to change the existing standards? Once we think we've covered the majority of possibilities, we could move it to a help page and make it official policy. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:49, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::::I put together [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a sandbox along these lines]] a couple of years ago. It hasn't been updated in quite a while, and I'm not sure it was ever actually complete, and it was the subject of [[User_talk:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a bit of debate]]... but there it is, for what it's worth. (Also, I support standardization of headers, but I've run into [[Talk:Ricochet_(Headmasters)#Header|some]] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive22#Section_naming_conventions|opposition]] over the nitty-gritty before, so best of luck.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 06:11, 8 February 2011 (EST)

== Foreign name reorganization ==

Is there any chance we could consider moving the foreign names somewhere else in the article other than at the top? We've already established a new standard for episodes, but characters could stand to have their names moved to their own dedicated section, likely under "Notes". There, we could add things like kana and Cyrillic forms of names not different from the English version. Opinions? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 4 February 2011 (EST)
:I'm in favor of it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:33, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::All things considered, since this is (mostly) an english-centric wiki when it comes to stuff, the foreign names do come off as being interesting trivia more than anything else. I'm in favour of this too. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:37, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I'm fine with where they are now, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:39, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I can see the logic in them being moved down to notes. You've got an in-universe profile, then a bunch of out-of-universe names, then the in-universe fiction section. The only argument I have against it is that I'm used to seeing the foreign names at the top. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:05, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::If it can be moved downward (to the first entry of the notes section or a new section after the notes section) instead of being on the top, MOVE it. Originally, I'm fine withe where they are {{m-}} but that would be a character with fewer foreign names. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 19:55, 4 February 2011 (EST)
Any further opinions on this? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:36, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:What about cases where some of the extra names at the top are English, e.g. Omni Productions names, or preliminary or nicknames? Would they remain at the top or become notes too? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:29, 21 February 2011 (EST)
::The Malay dub still technically counts as foreign in my mind. Nicknames should be integrated in the introduction (or notes section), and preliminary names should have been in notes in the first place, since they aren't the characters' "real names" in any sense. Further elaboration of the preliminary names better suits the notes section, anyway. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:43, 21 February 2011 (EST)
Japanese names are often for a character in a slightly different continuity. Like "Fire Convoy" is a Car Robots character and "Optimus Prime" is an RID character, but they share the same page. Or "Flame Convoy" is a Galaxy Force character but "Scourge" is a Cybertron character. In that case they should have the Japanese name up top. The names that are just different language versions of the English character can go on bottom. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:18, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:... no. ''Cybertron'' and ''Galaxy Force'' are NOT different stories (Takara officially put GF back in the same timeline as the prior two series), and the ''RID/CR'' split is a unique case. In neither case should the names go up top. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:44, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::They are slightly different continuities. Galaxy Force doesn't have the [[Omega Frequency]] for example. And the Grand Black Hole is different. And the [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity]] is different. [[Blaster (G1)|Broadcast]] never became Twincast in English. I think Japanese names are a special case and deserve to be on top since Japanese toyline & fiction continuity is always slightly separate. But I can hit the "end" key on the keyboard easy enough. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::Every single foreign language version of something is technically a slightly different continuity, strictly due to the nature of translation. This is not a arena in which Galaxy Force is unique. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== Commercial Appearances section ==

Alright, so I plan later on to start going through characters' pages and add in a "Commercial Appearances" section where it applies (sorry, I can't this weekend... homework to do!). Several characters already have this section and a lot of these commercials have nice short animations or other interesting characterizations and tidbits that I think they bear to be included in the characters' pages. Although, much like the Games sections, I'll only be able to marginally help by adding in the section itself to let people know that there's work to be done on a character's page... MY computer is so incredibly shitty that I can't even play videos off youtube. D:

But anyways, the reason I'm bringing this up here is because before I get started, I'd like to discuss what kind of format we want for this section, so it can be done right the first time around. Obviously, where it applies, stuff like indicating who the voice actor for the character makes sense, but should the write-up be in-universe or not? Since commercials fluctuate between using a short animation telling a mini-story and just being a straight-up commercial saying "buy this toy!" should a combination of both in-universe and out-of-universe description be used? And should we count the parts where the kids brandish their action figures and talk for the character as dialog spoken by the character? That's all the questions on the subject I can really think of for now... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:12, 6 February 2011 (EST)
:I would write up the animation segments in-universe so long as they're unique to the commercial (i.e. not just recycled footage from one of the cartoons). Anything else that's notable enough could qualify for an out of universe note. But I wouldn't bother with recycled animation or the kids talking for the figures. That doesn't qualify as fiction to me.
:In regards to your inability to view the commercials, would it help if you could download them in some fashion and then watch them offline? Maybe burn the videos to a DVD disc? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:43, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, any clips taken from pre-existing mediums would be redundant from those scenes being already covered in other sections on that character's page. Personally though, I'm still on the fence about the kids talking for the figures... I find it comparable to botcon script readings in a way... People just talking out loud for a character without any accompanying animation... I'm prone to be swayed either way. As for me viewing the commercials themselves, my spring break is a week from now. I might have access to a better computer then, but otherwise I'll just be putting in information already available on the wiki to the appropriate pages throughout the week, I guess. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 17:53, 6 February 2011 (EST)

==How to resolve monster debates?==
[[User:-Blackout-]]'s recent meltdown over being prevented from editing [[Goldbug (IDW)]] has made me think again about how policy/content discussions tend to go on this wiki. It's a big part of why I haven't been around since last summer: I found myself perpetuating these miles-long debates that few cared to read, everyone was irritated by, and most importantly ''were impossible to resolve.''

That Goldbug article is a sterling example. Right now, people are talking about it as if the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1|giant]] [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2|debate]] had resolved in favor of the current setup, so changing the article at this point is taboo because it "was dealt with already." But that's not how it went at all. Blackout's dickishly unilateral edit-war was definitely the Wrong Way to reopen this, but it's also wrong to pretend that we had achieved consensus or closure on the issue.

At [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2#Breaking down the problem|the end of the debate]], I had restated the case for [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Goldbug (G1)|my "Goldbug (G1)" sandbox]], which is definitely different from the current setup, and 6 other people declared support for it while 2 objected at length. But the objectors were also against the current setup: Jeysie wanted the toy gone, and Derik wanted... something inscrutable and Deriky. Combining those numbers with the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1#Vote Tally|premature vote]] that had been taken earlier (and adjusting for the voters who changed their minds by the end), I count:

Sandbox: 8 
Sandbox with modifications: 3 
Current page: 7 
Current page without the toy: 2

That's not consensus. That's deadlock. In fact, there were fewer votes to keep the page as-is than there were to change it in some fashion. The current setup didn't win out in terms of votes, logic, precedent, or any other measure: It won out because it was what happened to be there when the debate died of exhaustion.

So we're stuck with an awkward page that most people want to be different, encased in concrete forevermore. I don't see any way out of this situation, and I've watched the same principle play out with other debates too many times. At the very least, I wonder if it would be helpful to have a Template:Deadlock that we could slap on inconclusive debates (with a picture of [[Drift (G1)|Deadlock]], natch) so people know the true state of things.

Taking that idea further, maybe it could come with a period of enforced moratorium – say, two weeks – followed by a revote and/or a formalized "final statements" opportunity? The most extreme option I can think of is to create a "council of elders" that has the community-bestowed power to resolve intractable debates and declare relevant policy principles. Basically, a Supreme Court. I do worry that creating an authoritative heirarchy might produce even more problems, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:20, 9 February 2011 (EST)
: This whole argument goes to the heart of what we mean when we say two characters are "the same". The Bumblebee toy was produced and fiction was made to promote that toy, thus all of those fictions (which differ from each other) are about "the same" character. The Goldbug toy was produced with a tech spec that stated that it was "the same" character as Bumblebee. Fiction was produced to promote that toy, thus all those varying depictions of Goldbug are "the same" character as Bumblebee. The same argument applies to the differing backstories of Optimus Prime; Orion Pax and Optronix are "the same" character because they both are earlier forms of the character that was used to promote the sale of the Optimus Prime toy. The problem comes in with later stories that are not produced to promote those original toys. How do we decide what is the same? When is a character "the same character under different circumstances/in a different universe" and when is it simply an homage character? I really can't see how others see the IDW Goldbug as "the same" character as the original toy and not (as I see him) as a simple homage character. Under their viewpoint the toy belongs, under mine it doesn't. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:15, 10 February 2011 (EST)

: I NOMINATE MYSELF AS FINAL ARBITER AND SUPREME OVERLORD. all decisions will be made based on what amuses me the most. (seriously, we probably ought to have some kind of "no consensus" tag for articles like that.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:58, 10 February 2011 (EST)

Mmm...probably best not to restart the Goldbug debate itself here, Khajidha -- that would quickly distract from what Jackpot's actually asking here, which is how debates should be resolved ''in general''.

Some of the basic rules we already follow should remain. No "edit-warring"...leave it up to the Talk Pages to hash out the problem. I don't think a mere two weeks is enough to give people time to change their minds, though, especially in this crowd. One thing I notice is that despite dozens of regular contributors and hundreds overall, most Talk Page or Community Portal votes I've seen have less than 20 votes at the end. Many of these debates fly right under the radar. I'm relatively active here, but the Goldbug (IDW) chaos completely passed me by.

What about, when a Talk Page debate has clearly reached an impasse between <strike>obstinant</strike> strong-willed parties, a Vote is taken on the ''Main Page''? Some sort of easy-to-see box temporarily added to the Main Page, "above the fold" so that its visible to all visitors when they enter? It would be more noticeable than if the vote is hidden away on a single Talk Page people may or may not see. Something like ''"A [[Deadlock]] has arisen! Choose from the following choices: Should [[Goldbug (IDW)]] have the G1 toy on his page? Yes or No? (See the Goldbug (IDW) Talk Page for the full debate.)"''

I realize many debates won't be as simple as Yes or No, but if the debating parties agree in advance how to phrase the Voting Box, it could be a useful tool. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 13:07, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:Yeah, wasn't really trying to restart that debate. Was bringing up questions about general character debates, as they seem to occur quite often. But other debates also bog down, so I recognize that my questions don't apply to those debates.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:35, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:I like the idea of keeping a debate in the regulars' faces until a decision has been reached by enough people (at least 20? 25?). Many debates I keep away from because I think they'll disappear anyway and my vote doesn't really matter <s>and I also can't deal all that well with the aggressive nature of most debates, making it actively a lose-only situation if I'd enter</s>. I'm not sure if others feel that way, but I imagine this would be a boost for all to participate. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::I absolutely disagree with the premise that people who don't care enough to read the argument should have it shoved in their face until they vote. AT MOST, we should mention it somewhere prominent, like the community portal. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:53, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:::I agree that essentially putting a ballot on the front page is asking for trouble. You might get the dozens of votes you're looking for, but they'll all be uninformed gut reactions. One of the reasons these debates happen is that issues can be much more complicated and subtle than they seem at first glance. Plus one would hope that the reasoning behind the winning option would help develop our policies, but if the decisions are made by the majority of an explicitly uninformed mob, it's hard to glean any substantial precedent out of that.
:::But I think an approach like that ''could'' be combined with my "final statements" suggestion. Thinking out loud here: After a cooling-off period has been declared and a set amount of time has passed, anyone who wants to present a case can write up a defense of his or her preferred option. Those are all submitted to a neutral volunteer, who then posts them simultaneously on the relevant Talk page, and those become the voting choices. No replies are allowed, only votes. We put a notice up at least on the Community Portal, possibly on the Main Page, for another set time period, then close voting and go with the majority.
:::How does that sound? Like I said, thinking out loud, so suggestions are more than welcome.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:18, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::::Sounds pretty good to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:19, 11 February 2011 (EST)

==How featured articles are chosen==
On a side note, would a box like that also be useful to start a voting system for featured pages? Because I'm fine with Drift and Wreck-Gar and all others before, but I am absolutely clueless as to who chose them to become featured for what reasons. I'd like to see a better system for that. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: If there was a recently-completed article that's of respectable length, I choose it. The pool for featured articles is pretty damn small. Not many articles are finished, and the ones that are finished have usually already been Featured Articles already. Finished articles don't happen very frequently, so sometimes we find one that's close to completion near the end of a month and then push to finish it before the month is over. Sometimes we think a subject or a character is timely (like around BotCon, or before an episode or movie premiere) and push for that. If you want a heads up, Chris McFeely's [[Matrix of Leadership]] article is so totally March's. (I think Chris has the record for number of articles he's completed which have become featured.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:31, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: Long story short, if you want an article to be featured, finish it. That means photos for every toy and known merchandise, and storylinks (with summaries) to every piece of fiction they've appeared in. Behind the scenes information helps. The longer and more involved the article, the more appealing it is. Meaning, finishing an article for a Mini-Con who showed up in the background somewhere, or finishing an article for someone who doesn't have any illutrated appearances... these are probably not going to be featured. But people like Perceptor (G1) or Side Burn (RID) or High Wire (Armada) have enough about them to say to make an interesting featured article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:36, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: "Long story short," my ass. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:37, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:: Have we done any episodes as Featured yet? I know the over-arching "Target 2006" article was chosen once. You'd think we could get, say [[Code of Hero]] up to that standard pretty quickly. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 07:42, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::I really think we need to get [[BotCon]] up to that standard. We're pretty close! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]] is a Featured article about an episode. [[User:Excise|Excise]] 00:00, 16 February 2011 (EST)

== Letterers ==
On images of comic pages, do we credit the ''letterers'' by placing the image in an "Image by Letterer Name" category? We've got a few contradictory examples around. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:32, 12 February 2011 (EST)
:Okay, three options: For images currently in categories like "Images by Mike Scott" (where Mike Scott is a letterer), we can:
:# Create the category and treat letterers just like artists, inkers, and colorists.
:# Instead place them in a "Images ''lettered'' by Mike Scott" category.
:# Remove the category, and not attempt to categorize images by letterer.
:I'm probably going to go with option 3 barring dissent. [[User:JW|JW]] 17:25, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I added galleries to a few of the pages for letterers (eg [[Bill Oakley]], [[Peri Godbold]]) on the basis that lettering can make or [[:Image:Cryotekmrrghmraghmrugghagh.jpg|break]] a comic. As well as adding the text, the letterer has to pick where the balloons will go and place, them, so they do have a large degree of control over how the comic turns out. That said, I don't know that we need to categorise images by letterer. The original intention was [[:Category talk:Images by artist|not to]], but it looks like we ended up doing it anyway, and at least one template is set up to put images into category by letterer. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I'd vote for option 3 as well.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:02, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I'm leaning towards option 3 myself. My reasoning is that even though letterers can have a large effect on a comic, I don't see too many people wanting to find every image lettered by a given letterer. The galleries, on the other hand, are useful for demonstrating the quality of an individual's work. So those should be used. While the obsessive in me thinks we should categorize images by every applicable characteristic, it's not realistic. I don't think it benefits us enough to go through all that work for categories that only a few people might find useful. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:09, 17 February 2011 (EST)
'Kay, I'm going to go with option 3. This may involve editing a template or two. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:35, 17 February 2011 (EST)

== Categories by toy size class? ==
Do we ''want'' the following categories?
 Leader class toy images
 Deluxe class toy images
 Voyager class toy images
 Scout class toy images
 They currently have a very few things in them (and could obviously have many more), but the cat' pages themselves have not been created. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:43, 12 February 2011 (EST)

:No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:13, 12 February 2011 (EST)

::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:06, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:::As long as it's only the images and not the articles, I couldn't care less. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:09, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:There's also a "Legends class toy images" category which has 90 images in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:21, 15 February 2011 (EST)

::Legends are kind of an exception because they're a different scale/play pattern, as evidenced by the upcoming Cyberverse stuff. Scouts-on-up are ''generally'' meant to intermingle, Legends aren't. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:41, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I could go either way on this one. It's a lot of work to fill these categories out, but the ability to find all the Deluxe figures easily intrigues me. If we did institute this I would also think that this would be the proper place to put the "exclusive figure" categories and such. Basically, any category that pertains to a particular toy and not to the character could be tagged to the image of that toy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 23:08, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:I've been doing them because I saw other people do them. I don't mind either way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:51, 16 February 2011 (EST)
So, counting me as "no", that's three "no"s, an "I don't care", an "I don't mind either way", and an "either way/intrigues me". I think we're leaning toward "no". Final comments? [[User:JW|JW]] 07:08, 16 February 2011 (EST)

::I guess it's "no" or at least "not the time"? (Though I'm "I'm not sure".) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 11:21, 16 February 2011 (EST)
:::I've gone with "no", and added a note to that effect to [[Transformers_Wiki:Images]]. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:27, 16 February 2011 (EST)

Ha ha, none of the no's have actually said why they've said no. Such super debating skills that. [[Special:Contributions/213.105.226.130|213.105.226.130]] 17:44, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Undo Redone? ==

I just undid an edit, but instead of getting the automatic "Reverting edit ##### by User1 to last version by User2" summary, that box was blank. In addition, above the edit window were the captions "Current revision" and "Your text", side by side, as if there's meant to be one editable text window under each. Instead, there was only one such text window beneath them, stretching across under both captions. The page is protected so only registered users can edit it, so that MIGHT have something to do with the problem, though I doubt it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:28, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:It doesn't automatically create an edit summary if you're doing an undo on multiple revisions, so that might be it. Not sure about the other part - it's always shown me a diff at the top of the screen when I've done an undo. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:54, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::Okay, blank edit summary's explained, because it was indeed a group of 3-4 edits being undone all at once. Still inexplicable is the fact that I just checked the page history; it didn't even accept my Undo! LoneGamer78 ended up doing it instead. I've noticed some sluggish response from the site over the past fifteen minutes or so, perhaps whatever caused that was a factor? It may never be known...--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:02, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::Is it possible she just beat you to it by a few moments and thus there was an edit conflict? I've had that happen sometimes, and so there's no diff shown because now the page already matches what you were going to change it to. (Uh, does that make sense?) --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 22:17, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::::Can't rule it out entirely, but edit conflicts usually announce themselves as such, and they DO have two distinct editable text windows: one showing the text as it stands after someone edited while you were typing, the other as it would have been if you'd edited without interference.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:24, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::::A few times I've "undone" an edit, but someone else beat me to it. It doesn't seem to show an edit conflict if that happens, probably because the change is identical to the previous one. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:06, 19 February 2011 (EST)

== Banner ad question. ==
The small side box ad (the one that's still a free-floater) currently has an ad for some webcomic. Which is fine, but one of the panels has GIANT ERECT LADY NIPPLES ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm not offended by it, but it's, uh, something. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 06:39, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:Ah, yeah. That'd be because it's an NSFW comic called DarkBrain which is read aloud by "adult film star Tabitha Stevens." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:50, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:: If people don't like it, I can yank it. I didn't think its THO was that objectionable, apparently, when I okayed it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:27, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== help ==

I cant find the latest talk please help([[User:Manmcmanman|Manmcmanman]] 15:44, 21 February 2011 (EST))
:What do you mean by the latest talk? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 15:54, 21 February 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen Online Games ==

So, I figured I might as well finish up the online game write-ups for Revenge of the Fallen online games, in case they go offline once Dark of the Moon comes out. But, hot damn, do I ever suck. Which means I'm not very likely to get pics of later levels in some of these games. I'll be trying to add in whatever I can to these sections, but some help would be much appreciated! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:I can have a go at getting some screencaps tonight if no one else does. Which games in particular? I noticed some of them are already gone a couple of weeks ago, as Hasbro has redirected most of the monkeybar site they were on to the Hub site, which doesn't have them. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::Well, personally I'm having difficulty getting pics of every character's sprite from Battle for the Matrix. I'm currently working on The RPMs Devastator game. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 18:41, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::I got caps of everyone except the Fallen, haven't uploaded them yet though. I couldn't get the [[flying drone]]s to transform either. They just seem to fly around wildly in robot mode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::Dang! The Fallen is the only one I can't get to either! And yeah, the flying drones are near-impossible to get a screencap of. I got a couple mid-transformation, but that's it. If any of your pics are better than mine, feel free to replace them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:55, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::::I went and got pics from Flight of the Bumblebee and Allspark Highway. Unfortunately I can't get pics of Ratchet from the later since robovision isn't up anymore! Darn! I'll upload them later. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:45, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I grabbed a screenshot of The Fallen finally. Man, that game is a memory hog. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:38, 25 February 2011 (EST)

== Countdown? ==

Sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a while back ago, there was a countdown to ROTF on the Main Page. Perhaps a countdown to DOTM would now be appropriate as it's so close?

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to program/insert/design/<insert verb here> a countdown on a wiki page (it's for another wiki). What template or whatever does that use? I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me.

Again, terribly sorry if this is the wrong place to say this...
 - [[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:02 PM, 22 February 2011 A.D.
:Dark of the Moon countdown based on Derik's ROTF code: {{#expr: ({{ #time: U |July 1, 2011}} - {{ #time: U }})/86400 round 0}} days until [[Dark of the Moon (film)|TF: Dark of the Moon]]! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (EST)

==When to omit "Transformers" from an article title==
So I got a hankering to remove the "Transformers" from [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and all of their related pages, since unlike [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]], there's just no good reason to break policy for them. There are [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|other video games that we drop the "TF" from]], and if "Prime" is too common a term, then what about "[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]" or "[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]"?

But then I decided to check out [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?ns0=1&search=Transformers&searchx=Search&limit=500 which pages use "Transformers" in their titles,] and holyyyyyyyy crap. I copy-pasted here all the ones I found that I thought could lose the "Transformers" without negating their meaning, destroying a phrase, or otherwise severely damaging the title. (I added an "(etc.)" to each one that represents a series of identically-worded pages):

[[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Animated (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)]] 
[[1-2-3 Transformers]] 
[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Legends]] 
[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: The Headmasters (video game)]] 
[[The Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Energon Within]] 
[[The Transformers Collection]] 
[[Transformers Quest]] 
[[Transformers Key Recovery: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Power Up: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed]] 
[[Transformers PD Type]] 
[[Transformers: The Animated Movie]] 
[[Transformers Generations]] 
[[Transformers: Rise of the Chevy Autobots]] 
[[Transformers Annual 1990]] (etc.) 
[[The Transformers Sticker Book (1986)]] 
[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)]] 
[[Transformers: The Junior Novel]] 
[[Look and Find Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Coloring and Activity Book and Crayons]] 
[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers: Learn to Count Activity Tablet]] 
[[Transformers The Reusable Sticker Book]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Storybook]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Guide]] 
[[Transformers Prime Time]] 
[[Transformers Mix & Match]] 
[[Transformers Comic issue 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers The Game (console)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Autobots/Decepticons]] 
[[Transformers History of Music 1984-1990]] 
[[Transformers: Mosaic]] 
[[Transformers Name Generator]] 
[[Transformers Battle Universe]] 
[[The Transformers: Binaltech & TF Collection Complete Guide]] 
[[The Transformers Comic Magazine]] 
[[Transformers Pop-Up Book]] 
[[Transformers Visualworks]] 
[[Transformers Tooth Tunes]] 
[[Transformers Tapestry]] 
[[Transformers Song Universe]] 
[[Transformers G1: Awakening]] 
[[Transformers Armada Annual 2004]] 
[[Transformers: Beginnings]] 
[[Transformers the Movie water]] 
[[Transformers: The Score]] 
[[Transformers: The Thirteen]] 
[[Transformers: War Within Omnibus]] 
[[Transformers: The Ride]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Mutating Card Game]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Jigsaw Puzzle]] 
[[Transformers: Kōtetsu no Yūki]] 
[[The Transformers Continuum: The Definitive Chronology]] 
[[The Transformers: Bumblebee]] 
[[Transformers Adventures]] (etc.) 
[[Top Trumps: Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Race for the Mini-Con Robots]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Battle Begins]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Secret of the Star Saber]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Autobots Strike Back]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 1]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 2]] 
[[Transformers Theme Song Collection]] 
[[The Transformers: Drift]] 
[[Transformers Revenge of the Fallen Annual 2010]] 
[[Transformers CyberToy]] 
[[Transformers Hall of Fame]] 
[[The Transformers: Ironhide]] 
[[Transformers Evo.]] 
[[The Transformers Legends of the Microns: Sound of Evolution Vol. 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Music Matrix]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide: Revenge]] 
[[Transformers: Battle for the Matrix]] 
[[Transformers: Coloring and Activity Book and Stickers]] 
[[Transformers: Activity Book and Gel Pen]] 
[[Transformers: Sector 7]] 
[[Transformers: Cybertron Adventures]] 
[[Transformers Cards]] 
[[Transformers RPMs: Devastator's Demise]] 
[[Cadbury's Transformers Card Game]] 
[[Ridiculous Legend Transformers]] 
[[Famicom How-to Manga: Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Transformers Caramel]] 
[[Transformers Comic-Magazin]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Extra Comic-Sonderheft]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Super-Auswahlband]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Energon Valentine's cards]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 1]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 2]]

For many of them, the choice to keep or drop the "TF" seems intuitive, and many others are in a grey area... but I'll be damned if I can put into words any kind of coherent rationale. I'm seriously thinking that we've outgrown the "drop extraneous 'TF's" rule. Back when we only had a few hundred pages, it made a certain kind of sense: Why bother writing out stuff like "Transformers: Generation 2" when just "Generation 2" is equally meaningful to everyone here? Besides, isn't every page about Transformers by default? But in the past five years, both the wiki and the subject matter have exploded, and with both so many fine-grain, obscure topics being covered and so much not-strictly-TF content we've added, I don't think the policy serves us anymore. It doesn't make things simple; it makes things arbitrary and unpredictable.

So unless someone can sum up our policy in a way that makes a lick of sense, I propose: '''If a topic has an official title, then that should be used in full as the title of the relevant articles.''' Period. So [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] would stay right where they are, and yes, [[Generation 2 (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)", [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)", etc. I don't think we'd need to make that change happen instantly, but we could slowly propagate it as people feel inclined to. I also think we can keep the parenthetical abbreviations and in-sentence references as short as they currently are; this is only about the titles.

Thoughts?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:What are these "Transformers"? -[[Special:Contributions/75.185.113.106|75.185.113.106]] 18:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I've always been for having the full name as article titles. (Maybe also drop the "(franchise)" disambigs, because durr, but that's other topic.) Not only do we keep the full name of the subject, it aids us in disambiguation (it's easier to have smaller sets of "Transformers: Cybertron" and "Cybertron" than a large set of just "Cybertron"). [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::I don't have an opinion on adding or removing "Transformers:" from articles (other than that adding it would perhaps make articles and reading unnecessarily longer - right now, I hate having to type out "Transformers Animated" before "The AllSpark Almanac"), but I do oppose removing (franchise). If there's one thing I hate, it's when there's one 'most important' page that goes undisamb'ed (like Spark) and you'll have to go through a lot of trouble to ensure it all is meant to link there. When I cleaned up the Lithone links for planet and species, nearly every single one link directed the wrong way. Same for D-HQ, AllSpark vs Allspark, Junkion, Black Friday, etc. So, keep (franchise). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:49, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I too think "Transformers: " should be kept as well as " (franchise)". --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:46, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::I don't mind losing Transformers when it the prefix in a title that's the form of Transformers: <subtitle>, as in that case the subtitle itself is more the actual official name and "Transformers" is just tacked on as an extra identifier.

::::But in some of those things, Transformers is, well, a vital part of the thing's actual name. I mean, for instance, the Club's full official name ''is'' "Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club", so removing "Transformers" from it would be incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 03:00, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I don't think that distinction is clear enough to be workable anymore. Looking at that list, tons of them I have no idea which side of the divide they'd fall on. For instance, "[[Transformers Legends]]" is the proper title of the book; that's how it would be listed in any store or library, but for ''our'' purposes the "TF" is as extraneous as the one that we omit from [[Energon (comic)]] or [[Dinobots Strike Back]]. The "for our purposes" thing is so often so questionable... like, what would that dictate for [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]? It's definitely a subtitle situation like you described, but there are lots of non-TF "Ultimate Guide"s published by the same company... but we would never cover them, so for our purposes is the "TF" still redundant?
:::::I agree with Geewunling that it would be annoying to have to type out longer titles (though readability should be unchanged, since I think we could still truncate in-sentence references). But right NOW it's annoying that our lack of a coherent policy is making everything increasingly unpredictable. We're seeing a lot of creep in the form of stuff like [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and for some reason video games. So I don't even know what should be "corrected" anymore or how to decide the matter when creating a new article.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 13:58, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::::The annoyance of editors doesn't really enter into my consideration; the wiki is ultimately for the readers, not our convenience. If we have to do some more work for the best presentation, so be it. —Interrobang, not logged in

:I'm OK with moving articles to put Transformers into the title so long as we don't delete the redirects. If we move "Revenge of the Fallen (film)" to "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)", there are going to be a whole bunch of sites linking to the old URL, and I don't wanna have a repeat of the "(Shattered Glass)" thing where all the redirects get deleted and a whole lot of other sites are pointing to useless error pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:25, 23 February 2011 (EST)

=="(WFC)" vs. "(Prime)"==
There are currently [[Talk:Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#"(WFC)" instead of "(Prime)" for characters that originated in this franchise?|two]] [[Talk:Optimus Prime (Prime)#Move|discussions]] going about whether articles on subjects that originated in ''War for Cybertron''-branded fiction (the [[War for Cybertron games|games]], [[Transformers: Exodus|novel]], and [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|comic]]) should be titled "(WFC)" rather than "(Prime)". It was suggested that this should be brought up in the Community Portal, so here it is.

For the record, looking at [[War for Cybertron games#Featured Characters|this list]], right now we're using "(Prime)" for all named characters, even those currently exclusive to WfC, and "(WFC)" for all character ''types'' from the games. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the state of things.

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:46, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I completely agree with Jackpot. It is stupid we have an article called [[Ultra Magnus (Prime)]] stating "Ultra Magnus is an Autobot Wrecker from the WFC portion of the Aligned family continuity". I blame myself for not doing this a lot earlier, treating the WFC navbox as like a subsection of Prime when the novel was so clearly a tie-in to those games. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 18:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::WFC is a tie-in game. As I pointed out, how many Mini-Cons from the PS2 Transformers game use the disambiguator "(Transformers)"? And even then, what of novel-original characters? Do they get "(Exodus)"? And heck, didn't Exodus come out ''before'' WFC? Shouldn't the characters thusly use "(Exodus)" over "(WFC)" or "(Prime)"? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::: The book and game came out on the same day, as I recall. So... yeah. I'm completely against this. We used "Prime" because that was the name we WERE using for the continuity family; frankly, I find this wishy-washy "aligned continuity family" thing pretty lame. The core of the damn family is the Prime cartoon. It is THE central feature, and will be THE major fictional outlet and -almost assuredly- what future non-show fictions will adhere more closely to. I don't see the point in all this subdividing and adding more parantheticals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:19, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::I find it ''extremely'' hard to believe that if Hasbro's "decade" plan goes through, ''Prime'' is the last franchise we're going to see spring from it. Even Aaron Archer thinks "Prime" is a bad name for the overall deal. Given what a fractured start it's already off to, I think separating out the "family" foundation is the only sensible thing to do. So that's why [[Aligned continuity family]] exists.
::::As for the "(WFC)" notion, I'm not as personally attached to that, even though I do think it's the correct thing to do. Mostly I think that WfC needs to be acknowledged as an entity unto itself, not just a subset of ''Prime''. Strictly from a branding point of view, it ISN'T a subset; nothing has been both WfC- and Prime-branded. It's not just the title of a video game; it's in the titles of [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|a comic]] and [[Transformers: Exodus|a novel]], plus they've made [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#Toys|toys from it]] that definitely don't fit the ''Prime'' brand. (True, the toys aren't labeled "WfC", but that's par for the course with ''Generations'' anyway. At the very least, it's a grey area.) Beyond branding, it just has a unique aesthetic and sensibility that's very different from ''Prime''.
::::Based on all that, the best place WfC fits in our schema is as a "franchise", to my judgement. "''Prime'' tie-in" doesn't cut it.
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:55, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::WFC is not ''just'' a tie-in game. It has [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fcfb1b5-19b9-f369-10be-e91a2108d9ab online bios] and [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172 online timeline]. Hasbro made it its own thing. Franchise-like. Before any Prime show started we learned from the timeline that [[Megatron (Prime)|D-16]] was an Energon mine laborer and rose to prominence in secret gladiatorial combat and took the name "Megatron". So [[Megatron (Prime)]] had a whole history before the show even existed. The non-show characters with the (Prime) disambiguation also shows it doesn't quite fit. I'd go for WFC. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:35, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::AGAIN, Exodus came out the SAME DAY. So why does WFC get prominence? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:56, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::Because that's the phrase that's used in the names of [[War for Cybertron games|all]] [[Transformers: Exodus|the]] [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|media]]. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:02, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I don't see how the subline "The official history of the war for Cybertron" is the exact same as "War For Cybertron: The Vidya Game". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:24, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::I agree. Aside from three (ambiguous) words on the book's front, there's not much that says it's part of the WFC "franchise". Same for Generations. If they wanted to, they could have made figures of every War for Cybertron character and released it in a toyline explicitly called "Transformers: War for Cybertron". But they didn't; they just released five toys based on WFC designs and released them under Generations, so Generations is a WFC toy line as much as it is a G1 one (actually, probably more of G1 considering how very few WFC toys there were). The video games are only different because of hardware limitations, so having multiple games with the same title does not a franchise make. Having a website with bios and everything is a moot point, because almost every video game has that. The comic, I'll give you that one, but I don't think it's a franchise if it's a game and a tie-in comic with a limited release. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:30, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::For what it's worth, when you [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/movie-news/Transformers-War-for-Cybertron.cfm click on "War For Cybertron"] it brings up all the Generations toys. I also think the WFC timeline ties in Exodus to WFC since the events in the comic and timeline are basically from the book. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::It also brings up PCC Icepick (item 12 of 12, on page 2). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:52, 28 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::The WfC-branded timeline and comic both cover events in ''Exodus''. Hell, the comic was written by the same dude. I don't understand the logic that says that the "War for Cybertron" in the novel's title doesn't mean the same thing. If there were a novel called "Deuteronomy: The Official History of the Beast Wars" set during the events of the cartoon, I wouldn't be trying to say it was part of the ''Beast Machines'' franchise.
::::::::Let me put in a slightly different light: Because franchises are branding-based, not continuity-based, I'm not comfortable with the ''Prime'' franchise being stretched to include all this stuff that doesn't have the ''Prime'' label on it. Yes, it's clearly all RELATED, story-wise, but that's what [[Aligned continuity family|continuity pages]] are for. This feels like taking ''Machine Wars'' (which is the opposite kind of sparse: a toyline with virtually no fiction) and rolling it into G2. Sure, they're in the same family, and there are connections between the two, but they're not marketed with the same label, so we don't do it. Before ''Prime'' existed, there were these other forms of media sharing a unique title (that even got the TF-logo lockup treatment!) and covering common ground. Then ''Prime'' showed up, and so far the two labels have not been seen on the same product. To me, that means two franchises.
::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::But... there is no overarching label on the products we have poked into the WFC "Franchise". "Transformers: War for Cybertron" has its own logo which is also on the tie-in comic, and Exodus has its own logo. They're still prequels to TF:Prime. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:33, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::::I guess I just see the "War for Cybertron" in the title of ''Exodus'' as having more meaning than you do. Yeah, Hasbro could've been more blatant if they'd wanted to, but it's still clearly telling the reader it's part of the same deal as the WfC games and comic, without making any reference to ''Prime'' (or vice-versa). I can imagine a situation where the ''Prime'' branding might retroactively subsume WfC, like how the "Wreckers" comic was given the ''Universe'' brand (they say there's another game coming out, after all). But that hasn't happened yet, so in the meantime I say WfC doesn't belong under the ''Prime'' franchise.
::::::::::Anyway, at this point if we don't see eye-to-eye, we probably won't, so I'm going to shut up now.
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:What about the next thing after ''Prime'' that is in the Modern/Aligned continuity? We would have a new disambiguation, like, "Spike (Next Franchise)." and characters that have never been in Prime, like "Ultra Magnus (Prime)." Kind of confusing. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::No it isn't. The idea that WFC/Exodus are part of a big wad of continuity colloquially known as "Prime", and referred to as "Prime" because the "Prime" cartoon is THE core of the whole shebang, and will liekly BE said core for the near future, is not a hard one. It only gets confusing when you start letting obfuscating pedantry in, at which point you're only making more work for no payoff and making things harder for our readers. A trend which seems to keep coming up over and over again, I've noticed... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:09, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::I'm pretty sure I've had my share of "obfuscating pedantry" moments, but I completely agree with Siph on this one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:18, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::For the record, if people really think that using "(WFC)" would be confounding to readers, that's not a decision I'm very invested in. This discussion has ballooned into bigger issues that I ''do'' feel more strongly about, but the parenthetical itself is very take-it-or-leave-it for me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I would at the least support migrating characters who have thus far ''only'' appeared in WFC to the appropriate parenthetical.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:55, 1 March 2011 (EST)
:And move them back if they appear in Prime? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 11:03, 1 March 2011 (EST)
::Yes. I think that would make the most sense to people looking for the characters.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::I am willing to make this compromise for the time being. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 14:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)

==War For Cybertron==
War for cybertron is a relativley new game, but it is a great one. I am kind of new on this website, but to me, it looks like the War For Cybertron title has gotten mixed up with Transformers: Prime, a completley diffrent universe. also, WFC is G1 Canon. All the WFC pages and articles should be labled on G1, MAJOR cleanup is needed. {{unsigned|Holymoses|06:30, March 3, 2011 (EST)}}
:You clearly ''are'' quite new, because we would advise you to read [[Aligned continuity family|this article]] before you start in on this notion. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 06:33, 3 March 2011 (EST)
:In Hasbro's own words: "The TRANSFORMERS brand team would like to confirm that Transformers War for Cybertron video game, Transformers Exodus novel, and the Transformers Prime television show are in the same aligned continuity. Hasbro is creating a single continuity to tell the bulk of our TRANSFORMERS stories going forward." Here's the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/8189/20/ link] to the announcement --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 06:45, 3 March 2011 (EST)
::You aren't completely wrong. The game developers were heavily inspired by G1, and were pretty much making a G1 game as far as they knew. It's just that, like Khajidha said, Hasbro says War for Cybertron is part of the same continuity as Prime, so that's what the wiki goes with. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:00, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Well that still seems weird, since "Prime" has a completley diffrent story, and "Exodus" doesnt connect the two sagas very well. even if its what Hasbro said, i think we should put all this into consideration, Aaron Archer himself said that War for Cybertron was a game set in the G1 Universe. I think its wrong of Hasbro to try and connect the two diffrent Continuities. {{unsigned|Holymoses|09:12, March 4, 2011 (EST)}}
:First of all, when did Aaron Archer say that? Second, Hasbro gets to define what is in each continuity for the simple reason that it is their intellectual property. It may not be to your liking, but it cannot be wrong as they are the ones who determine what is right. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, gonna need a source on that Archer statement. Especially since he's been amongst the ones saying WFC/Exodus is part of the new continuity. Also, weren't a lot of elements in WFC, like Dark Energon, Hasbro mandates from a story bible they supplied the creators (hereby proving that Hasbro's intent was always for it to be part of the new continuity), or am I imagining things again? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:08, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::From what I read about that production bible, it is a result of guys at Hasbro sitting down and "[http://collider.com/roberto-orci-jeff-kline-interview-transformers-prime/75039/ coalescing all the mythologies] that they had institutionally for years. Actually putting it down to paper." It sounds like they were just collecting and not adding new stuff in. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Energon were added ''after'' it was in the game. And what about timing? Orci said Hasbro put together the bible after the movies came out (in mid 2009). The video game came out in mid 2010 with a video game lead time of ??? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::Unless Dark Energon is actually just the new name for Angolmois energy. The name may have been taken from the video game, but the concept could well have been in the production bible before WFC. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:37, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::What a load of supposition and crap. I hereby dub it "crapposition". I can pretty much say that you are completely wrong. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::::[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/05/interview-matt-tieger-of-high-moon-studios-on-transformers/ Matt Tieger said] that High Moon started working on WfC when they shipped their "Bourne" game, which according to the accompanying notes was mid-2008, between the first movie and RotF. [http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/interviewtransformerswarforcybertron2.html This interview] talks up the G1 inspiration and then says the WfC storyline is "a completely original story that we made up at High Moon. We worked closely with Hasbro..." The consistent impression I've gotten from several different interviews is that High Moon started from G1 and then made pitches to Hasbro, which Hasbro would provide feedback on, and eventually there was a game. The only people who I've seen actually talk about the 400-page story-bible are the ''Prime'' creators. And if Orci was being literal when he said the bible was put together "after the movie’s came out", then game development would've indeed started earlier. At the very least, it sounds pretty likely that there was some simultaneous creation.
:::::In the end, the chicken-and-egg question is basically moot because either way, WfC is part of the new deal. It doesn't matter who said the words "Dark Energon" first; it's part of the structure that binds all of the pieces, so that's that. But for nitpicking's sake, Starfield's suppositions aren't off-base from the evidence we have. Siph, if you have additional info that clarifies or contradicts any of that, please share.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::::I, similarly, have found it quite plausible when thinking on the subject to believe that High Moon could have created the idea of Dark Energon, and that Hasbro then said to themselves "We can use THAT!" and put it in the bible. It's certainly outside the realm of possibility, unless you know something we don't, Siph. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 05:24, 5 March 2011 (EST)

:Because nothing whatsoever can change in the millions of years between the WFC era and the Prime cartoon era. And yeah, good luck sourcing that Aaron claim. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
I think that if they were in the game or in Exodus:The Offical History of the War for Cybertron, they should be labled (WFC),but if they poped into the Prime teley-show or comics, they should be labled (Prime).-[ [User:DinoDigger97|DinoDigger97]] 2:11 3 Apil 2011

== Captured-Prey ads ==

One of the things advertised there appears to be a fan-made Megatron min-figure. Seeing as how everybody was upset that the TFSource ad [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive47#TFsource_ad_buy|featured fansproject stuff]], surely, this isn't right either? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 05:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)
:Check the section back up this page titled [[#Project_Wonderful_ads|Project Wonderful ads]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 8 March 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen video game character articles - [X] Scout 1, [X] Scout 2 pages for the same design ==

With the upcoming DOTM games, I thought I should look at the ROTF game articles that were abandoned in 2009 and see if I could do anything for them. I believe it was Derik who made this decision, but I am now wondering if it is necessary to have say [[Aerialbot Scout 1]] and [[Aerialbot Scout 2]], [[Omnibot Scout 1]] and [[Omnibot Scout 2]] (and so on) considering "Scout 1" and "Scout 2" are just the two different colour schemes for these mass produced generic, nameless characters who only differ in terms of textures. Any completed articles on these will have different images, but exactly the same information. Isn't that redundant? Should we perhaps just stick both of each under Aeriabot Scout, Omnibot Scout, Stunticon Scout? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:14, 11 March 2011 (EST)
:According to the articles the two Aerialbot Scouts have different health, primary weapon and secondary weapon ratings. Is that enough for separation? I don't know, but it should be considered before making a decision. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 11 March 2011 (EST)
::I don't even know where those stats came from - I don't believe the person who filled them in originally ever explained. Were they from a website, article or guide book? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:42, 11 March 2011 (EST)

== Found some much needed images, but... ==

I found them on [http://transformersiv.mforos.com/1519135/8979801-transformers-g1-aventuras-y-nostalgias-que-nunca-moriran/ this site], and I don't speak the language (I think it's Spanish) to ask for their permission to use them. The images are covers of the [[Marvel Books]] titles [[Battle at Oil Valley]], [[Summertime Coloring Book]], and [[Super Activity Book]]. That's right we don't even have an article for that last one. They also have page scans of these and other Marvel Books titles. I don't feel right just taking them for our use here and was wondering if someone who spoke the lingo would contact them for us. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 12 March 2011 (EST)
:Nevermind, Google Chrome finally remembered that it had translational abilities. The poster is offering them for download to all and sundry, so he/she can hardly care if we borrow them. I'll probably still insert a link to the main site out of courtesy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:22, 12 March 2011 (EST)
::After looking at them, I realized that they were Steve Stonebreaker's scans. I have contacted him and received permission to use them here. I'll be adding more soon. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 16 March 2011 (EDT)

== Hey, I've got a new user talk page template request... ==
[[Image:Rebirth1 Hardhead and Blurr.jpg|right|thumb|300px|TOO MANY QUOTES]]
Can we have one that reminds folks that every new thing in Transformers that even vaguely reminds you of an old thing in Transformers IS NOT A REFERENCE AND THAT IS NOT HOW REFERENCES WORK AND STOP PUTTING THEM IN THE "TRANSFORMERS REFERENCES" SECTION. Ahem. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:18, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:You mean like [[Template:notareference|this]]? --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:22, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
::Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:30, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:::Brilliant. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:39, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::That's an oldie, but a goodie. Personally, I'm wondering if there's any template that can be set up for the people that just drown episode articles in quotes... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:42, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::I think we'd first need a consensus on how many quotes are appropriate. [[User:JW|JW]] 07:41, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::It's a conversation that needs to be had, I think. You have to take length of the story into account - there are more quotes in a two hour movie than in a twenty five minute episode. I'd put the early cutoff at around five for episodes, though. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 08:00, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I like the idera of a mximum of 5 per 30 minutes (or part thereof) for Episodes & movies, but what would be a good size for comics? I'd say around 3 per issue, but it breaks down with short issues and back up stories (i.e.e most of the Marvel UK exclusive stuff...) [[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 10:19, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'd set a "soft" limit higher for 30-minute episodes {{m-}} around 10 quotes {{m-}} and I'd allow more than that if the episode was particularly well-written or quotable. I don't think there's any need for a low, hard limit, as I don't think lots of quotes hurt the wiki until we get into "quoting the whole darn episode" territory. Heck, in fact, I might favor a policy of ''judging each quote for itself.'' I.e., if a quote is good/noteworthy/illustrative/funny/wadeva, it can be kept, even if there are two dozen other quotes already. Each must stand on its merits, but there would be no hard cap. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yeah, some episodes happen to have a lot of funny/significant/memorable lines, others don't. If we set a hard cap, we might be damning ourselves to a lot of pointless fights over which quotes deserve to be included under the arbitrary limit. I'm more in favor of making a list of criteria that we can point to when we weed lame quotes out.
:::::::::Oh, and I support making a template. ''Prime'' Soundwave is the best character I can think of to use, but Movie Bumblebee or G1 Wreck-Gar would also be appropriate. Or a shot of G1 Soundwave with a tape inside of him? Can't think of a good header, though...
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 11:49, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::I mainly suggested it as a starting point because if it comes down to putting each quote in place based on "which one we like more" the talk pages are going to be absolutely horrible. HOW CAN YOU LEAVE OUT MY FAVORITE QUOTE IT IS SO FUNNY AND RELEVANT. The "5 per 30 minutes" is just a suggestion - obviously an episode that's really funny or poignant can get more. Comics issues we could maybe use pagecount as a starting point. But basically, combine the two ideas. A list of criteria is a good idea, but we also need to avoid having like, thirty quotes for a given story, twelve of which are totally shitty. If we get over five-six quotes, it's time to think about trimming, just because seriously, 90% of TF fiction isn't that goddamned quotable - or there are better places for the quotes. "I don't rock and roll - I burn!" belongs on Inferno's page, not on the episode it appeared in. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:51, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::Fair enough. Just so long as the number is sufficiently "soft" that we don't forget that our goal is high quality, not an arbitrarily low quantity. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:17, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Exactly. Like I said, I think we can also judiciously use key ''character'' quotes on the ''characters''' pages. Some quotes are very episode/story specific, while others provide insight into a character's personality or mindset. I think that's a good way to winnow the chaff, you know? -hx at work not logged in gotta run
::::::::::::::The 5-6 quotes before we start trimming sounds good, especially if some more individual character based quotes can be moved to the character pages. The big problem I keep seeing with quotes is that too many people want to quote an entire scene. If it goes beyond 3 lines it's probably not what we mean by quote here. And even 3 lines is pushing it. These should really be a single line quip or a two line set up and pay off. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:22, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::5 to 6 sounds like a good starting point to me as well. Khajidha makes a good point about the definition of quote. That, along with Hooks' point about using key character quotes on that character's article, should be pointed out on [[Help:Example episode article]], once it exists. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
What about block quotes? The page for Transformers (2007) is full of them. I think there should be a limit on how long the quote can be.--[[User:Megatron Prime|Megatron Prime]] 16:48, 19 May 2011 (EDT)
== Maybe a silly question, can we? ==

Ok, exposing my ignorance here, but isthere a way to search the wiki by alt-mode? If I wanted to know every TF that turns into a Helicopter say? There's not a "helicopter" catagory, so howwould I find them all? Thanks for any help.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:59, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]] covers some characters. There's been a few vague proposals to create a new hierarchy of categories for altmodes, but it would be a lot of work, and it's generally shouted down. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:08, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:I think the current best option if you want to do something like this is TFU.info's Identify section. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 11:00, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

==Grimlock letter==
[[Image:Grimlock letter.jpg|thumb|right]]
I recently acquired this and thought it's exactly the sort of thing we should be covering. I had no idea it even existed until a friend sent it to me and on that thought, should we add letters from Soundwave, Ratchet(?), Dreadwind and Blaster to the Holy Grails? Was there a similar response from the US comic, and do Titan still send these letters out today from Starscream? Enquiring minds want to know. Incidentally, he said he got Tailgate as his free mini-toy. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:31, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
:Good find. A letter from Grimlock is pretty awesome. That should go somewhere. The Letters Page page? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:58, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
::I've added a link from there; I'll type it up verbatim if we think it's justified? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:09, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

== Voice actors by series ==

We have a bunch of categories for voice actors by language, but I was wondering if we should have categories for voice actors by series? Would categories like "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Victory voice actors" be useful? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:27, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

:That could be useful. It'd be better than looking up cast lists and opening up every character page, at least. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:30, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

::Sound like a nice idea to me. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 10:01, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

== "Just Stop" Notice? ==

Do we think there's a role for the following proposed user notice template, for users like Eagc7?

{{messagebox|image_name=War_War_Stop_It.jpg|image_width=225px|width=90%|header=Just Stop|message_text=Please stop editing this wiki. While you haven't done anything ban-worthy (yet), you are not a productive contributor. (The reasons ''why'' are above this notice on your talk page.) So, please, '''just stop.'''}}

Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 14:39, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:If one is created, I love this image for it! --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 15:35, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::It seems a bit rude, but the image would be ''perfect'' if this is made. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 15:45, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:::If this gets phrased differently, I'd support it. Right now, the text's too rude. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:52, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::::I think it is meant to be rude and probably should be rude. This tag is designed to be placed on the talk pages of people who have seemingly ignored the multiple instances of other tags. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:57, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

I'm a little iffy on this proposal. I admit that Eagc7 has a very poor grasp of the English language, but I'm a little uncomfortable with telling a person to leave a site just because of that. If you look over his fiction edits (the ones you can read) the posts he has made are accurate, just...occasionally unreadable. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:02, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
:I'm with SFH. Eagc7's English seems to be all over the place, but there are times when he gets it more or less correctly and only needs minor typo fixes. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:21, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Whether a person's edits are bad enough (and bad enough all the time enough) to ask them to never post again seems like something that shouldn't be in the hands of, well, everybody. Putting a template up that says you're a bad speller or that you're not using Preview enough... that's pretty straight forward. But I dunno if I'm comfortable with giving us all a tool to shame each other off the wiki entirely. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:49, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:In addition, if someone's edits are so bad (and so consistently bad) that they're more of a nuisance than they are helpful, then that person should probably just be gotten rid of, instead of getting the Middle Finger Personified In A Template. As Detour said, yeah, Eagc7's English could use some work, but he does enough good here that I don't think he's completely poison or anything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
I could maybe get behind the idea of a "Stop editing until you've read the complaints on your user page" template for the blissfully unaware people constantly making edits that are being undone as soon as they make them whilst ignoring comments on their user page telling them what they're doing wrong. But a template like THIS, and this sort of behavior in general, is how we end up with trolls that come by and vandalize the wiki on a daily basis for years and years. We could avoid that sort of future headache by just not being all-out douchebags to people even if they're stupid and/or their contributions are annoying. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:15, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:I suppose the only problem with making a "read your talk page" template is that they'll never read it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:24, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::: I like this idea, too. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::Got me there. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:36, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:This will not go well. If someone's a real pest here, ban them. If they're being a pest but not quite that bad yet, notify them on their talkpage with whichever templates are already needed, and then if they don't clean up, ban them. We shouldn't be creating--publicly--an underclass of users. If you're allowed to have an account here, you're allowed to post--otherwise we look scummy. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 19:17, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::This is basically every stereotype of this wiki and its userbase given textbox form. I love it. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 20:33, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

The consensus seems to be against it, and the arguments are all good ones. (Kind of a pity, since the image was so perfect, but...) I withdraw the suggestion. Thanks all for weighing in! [[User:JW|JW]] 20:25, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:It is a good template despite the rudeness, but it is potentially necessary for extreme conditions as a last resort. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Is it possible that we could reuse that image for another template? Perhaps a Final Warning template, letting users know that if they don't cut their shit out, they're gonna get banned. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:42, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
: Clearly it should be used for a "stop edit/revert warring" template. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:32, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

== Our Blogger blog? ==

To me it appears that our blog doesn't have much use. Our twitter sends out links to occasional pages and our facebook is an easy place to congregate and talk about TFs and not take up our talk pages, but the blog hasn't been used in over half a year.

I'm thinking using it to keep track of current trends and such. We could highlight pages that are being worked on, point out users who have been creating/adding a lot to pages (i.e. Geewunling creating minor GI Joe pages, Chris McFeely going crazy with the Japanese food tie-ins). This way an editor or lurker who happens to miss a few days can easily catch up rather than having to sift through the new pages and new files (and even then if a page has just had an entirely new writeup from a stub, it wouldn't show up there).

Any thoughts on this? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:21, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

:I think it would be a good way to draw attention to obscure and/or new stuff on the Wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:46, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
::I think so, too, but there are questions left unanswered if we want to go ahead with this. Who would be given control over the posts? Should it be extra mod duties or instead given to some other veteran editors? If so, how many? Would we want weekly updates or something with less frequency? Overall, who is in the current position to grant other users the power to add posts. I can see this as a useful too, but like many things on this wiki, we need to come up with some sort of procedure before it comes to fruition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:33, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

==TFwiki in the past week==
Could someone tell me why the TFwiki has been down/inaccessible for most of the time in the past week? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:04, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:I would wager "massive spikes in traffic, as DotM stuff hits," which has happened before.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::I thought traffic wouldn't be a likely cause since the third movie is still over a month away. Guess I was wrong. Thanks! [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:27, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:::There's at least some clamor now that the toys are out there.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:46, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::::Technical explanation or non-technical? Traffic HAS picked up a bit, the wiki hardware (such as it is) is slightly overtaxed, and we need to start doing some math on what we can separate into other servers, and how much it'll cost to do so.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:15, 13 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::Cowboy time. We've moved the application server and cache to another box, and synced over the contents. If anything's missing, we can try to sync it over from the old webserver, but it wouldn't be off by more than a few minutes, so here's hoping that we're back in business!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:43, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::No wonder the connection becomes smooth again recently. Nice Works!! --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:45, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Yeah, I'd noticed that the site was back to normal. Thanks for the hard work. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:52, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::Thanks for fixing our wiki! [[User:JW|JW]] 07:15, 18 May 2011 (EDT)

== Eagc7's movie comic section edits ==

Lately Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is good. However, Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is bad. I know he tries, but whenever he does this sort of thing, he just ends up creating work for somebody else to clean up, and frankly, it's easier to write stuff from scratch than it is to fix somebody's spelling & grammar, as well as trying to make the text fit the tone and style of the paragraphs surrounding it (which is important considering the Foundation comics take place during the other Movie prequel comics). I haven't read Foundation and Rising Storm, [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eagc7 so I can't fix all of this myself], but that seems like a fair bit of work to fix at a time when the wiki was experiencing random downtime and BotCon is rapidly approaching (meaning a good chunk of our regular editors will not be able to edit much, and in any case would be updating stuff about/from BotCon). Like I said, I know he's trying, and he's getting much better than he used to be, but... maybe he should leave fiction edits to the professionals. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:27, 18 May 2011 (EDT)
:Take it up with him via his Talk Page or the E-mail a User link. If there's really a stylistic problem, then we need a Style Guide for new users to reference.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:04, 19 May 2011 (EDT)

==Page views==
Where have they gone? I believe that they have disappeared from down the pages since the move a few weeks ago. Can they be put back? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:09, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
: I don't recall pageviews... What in specific are you talking about? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:12, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::I guess [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Popularpages popular pages]? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::Yeah those, how often a page has been visited. I kinda liked keeping tabs on relative popularity in pages (like how Mayumi and Shinichi ''never'' lost their 2:1 view ratio). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:24, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::The broken popular pages has apparently been a thing lately, as I noticed Abates was removing and re-adding the link to [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]] earlier this month. Maybe he knows more about it? --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 18:41, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::No more than anyone else. I noticed it was gone and removed it from the template, but then it came back when we did the move so I readded it. I guess it got removed again, possibly for performance reasons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:58, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::::If I had to make a poorly-educated guess, the pageview thing sounds exactly like one of the many things I had to remove from Shortpacked.com to keep it from lagging so so badly. Lots of neat little things like page tracking and stuff like that used to be on there, but they were more trouble, resources-wise, than they were worth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I didn't change anything, but I generally make it a point to keep away from the Mediawiki software config, for fear of breaking that which I don't understand. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 13:07, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
::::::::May have been Scout I guess? Looks like [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDisableCounters $wgDisableCounters] got turned on at some point anyway. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:02, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Wait, that WAS me. $wgDisableCounters is supposed to be off for squid-cached installations anyway, since it doesn't actually work when you add a cache. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 21:26, 12 June 2011 (EDT)

== Why is Melissa from Kiss Players on the same Page as Marissa Faireborn from G1? ==

I know they are some how connected ,but i see the two as different as G1 Starscream is to Animated Starscream ,maybe the same history ,but a little different.--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Michael Alex Kawa]] 10:43, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
:They are related in the same way that Orion Pax is related to G1 Optimus Prime. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 10:51, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
: Marissa = Marissa. Same continuity and everything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:02, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

== I don't know if this was what you are looking for when you asked for Kiss Players radio play translations ,but i hope this helps . ==

I found this on Youtube cause I LOVE Melissa and noticed in that Holy Grail thingy that you guys needed Kiss Players radio play translations .I hope this helps ,even if it doesn't it is still pretty cool and CUTE .I did not make it so that is noted .Here is the link so you guys can go and look to see if it what is needed ,it is the only one i can find ,if it helps i will try to find more .[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZvUg2c649Y]
--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 18:25, 2 June 2011 (EDT)

I also found this site ,it gives a brief description of the radio play ,again i hope this helps .[http://www.toyvey.com/kisskiss/radioplay/index.html]--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 14:32, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
:I haven't looked at the material myself yet (I'm afraid it'll make me have to clean myself until I bleed to get the stain out) but if it's legit, then thank you very, VERY much. This stuff needs to be cataloged to serve as a warning to future generations. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 07:25, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

== The multiverse ==

So, at BotCon, Aaron Archer declared the Aligned continuity separate from the old, more meta multiverse. How does everyone want to approach this? Separate the aligned information about Primus, Unicron and the members of the 13, or keep it together for easy access and lack of confusion just as one article covers the various versions of the Matrix, or Energon, or the AllSpark? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 05:06, 6 June 2011 (EDT)

== Moving from Wikia ==

Hello guys, can anyone give me some advice about how to leave Wikia? I mostly need advice about easily moving content. I found that Wikia provides a database dump as an XML file with all page content except files, and with the page histories. I really need to have the page histories. I installed MediaWiki on my PC for testing, with EasyPHP for the database, and importing the XML file actually doesn't work. It says "Import failed: Loss of session data. Please try again." So I guess I set up my database too quickly and forgot some things. This was just for quick testing after all. Did you follow that template for moving, or something else? I'd really appreciate any advice and help from you! Cheers. [[User:Klow|Klow]] 07:36, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:Right out of the gate, you need to go over EVERY page you download before you go live, because Wikia inserted code that provides linkbacks to Wikia in them, meaning your pages will be providing THEM with hits. I do not know exactly what process is involved, but it's a scumfuck move of theirs that you should be aware of. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:18, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
::Nice to know, thanks. But what about what I mentioned above? How do I start and all? [[User:Klow|Klow]] 17:46, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:::A helpful resource for leaving Wikia is the [http://awa.shoutwiki.com/ Anti-Wikia Alliance site], which has useful info on departing from Wikia. The "loss of session data" usually means that you just have to try again. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:02, 21 June 2011 (EDT)
:I'm just the server architecture guy, so I can't help with the XML import, but let me warn you right now, Mediawiki for a moderate-traffic site is a PIG. Get a server geek to help you out, as we've got a buttload of cache, and STILL have performance issues from time to time. It's all stuff I can probably fix, if I ever have the free time to dedicate to the problem, but it's definitely a big old pain in the rear. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 08:27, 22 June 2011 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-06-13T01:26:33Z

McFly: /* Page views */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


==Didn't we have a Transformers Appearances/References in Other Media page?==
I could have sworn we did, mentioning stuff like Family guy etc. If we don't have such a page, would it be allowed to be created? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 11:53, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:Unless it's officially sanctioned by Hasbro, no, we do not mention Transformer appearances in other media. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:54, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:: If it ever existed, it would have been destroyed with fire in about 30 seconds. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:46, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::: Of course, if we did have such a page, we could use it as a lighting rod, keep anons from adding something to Soundwave's page every time Seth Green says the word "transformers." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:28, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Of course, NO. Discussion over. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Discussion not quite over. If the unofficial nature of the topic is the reason why it is not allowed, then there are several articles that already exist that are pushing boundaries on the wiki. I would have thought that the biggest problem would be it's size.[[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 09:26, 20 December 2010 (EST)
:::::Yeah, that'd be the other big reason. There's so many such references it would be impossible to keep track of them all. It would also involve making sure what's added there is actually a TF reference. And given all the Toms, Dicks and Harrys that'll come out of the woodwork to add such stuff, that's going to be more trouble than not having a page. Best not to get a larger headache for the sake of reducing a smaller one. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:44, 20 December 2010 (EST)

=="Knockoff warning" for toy sections?==
Just something that occurred to me... as I skimmed this page http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 and looked at alllllll the "could be mistaken for real and paid stupid money for" knockoffs... is there any objection to some form of link to this in the relevant toy sections? Sadly, the page lacks a "jump to" feature of any kind, but alerting people to the potential danger of dropping several hundred on what they think is a genuine Defensor box set... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:50, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:I think it skirts the line with our "we don't really discuss knockoffs" policy, but on the other hand, yeah, it's a useful bit of information, almost to the point where we could stand to have a special page about ''these specific knockoffs''. I am not opposed to adding a link to that site, no, as long as it's got a massive and specific caveat attached to it (maybe even with a special template box thing ("A Prime Problem"-themed perhaps?)). Hell, maybe the highendtfs people would be willing to throw up navigation in exchange for the inevitable deluge of hits - anyone got contact info for the owner? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 09:11, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::It's worth noting that there are some very well-done Henkei seekers knockoffs now, too. The really expensive ones even, like Thundercracker. Their sections could use warnings as well. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:56, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::Are they in knockoff PACKAGING that is meant to look like the real thing? That's the really tricky part. G1 MIB shit is much, much more expensive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:27, 19 December 2010 (EST)
::::Yes, they are: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/buyer-beware-update-on-ko-henkei-seekers/20380/ -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:03, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::I am not sure I want to attach more template boxes to pages as is. Especially over something like knockoffs. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:55, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::I'd ''thought'' about a template, but... ehn. I think a simple link under the TFU.info (or whatever), perhaps with a bolded "'''Knockoff alert'''" text. Like...

::::*''[http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 '''Knockoff alert''': More information on packaged imitations of this toy at HighendTFs.com]''

:::Thoughts? This would ONLY cover stuff that is in packaging meant to deceive you by looking as real as they can get it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:05, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::::I could agree with that. This is a step beyond your standard knock off crap, some notice might be appropriate.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:44, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::::I think it is a good idea to have it, since it is useful. This is different from putting info of some KO or unlicensed products on the page. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:49, 19 December 2010 (EST)

== Extension:Oversight ==

Quite a few times I've seen admins delete and undelete pages to clean out bad revisions. Why they do this I have no idea, since we have [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Oversight the Oversight extension] installed.

Perhaps we should look into granting some people "oversighter" access? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 05:09, 25 December 2010 (EST)
:I've just noticed that deleting and then restoring pages in the manner mentioned above has the side effect of resetting a page's page views stats, so that's another point in favour of the Oversight extension. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:40, 11 January 2011 (EST)

== Wikipedia, revisited ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#The_.22Campaign_of_Deletion.22_against_the_Transformers_Wiki_Project_by_NotARealWord_and_TFWiki.net]

Just in case anyone's interested. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 10:54, 5 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log back in)
:NEWSFLASH: Nobody cares. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:21, 5 January 2011 (EST)

== Captcha to prevent spambots? ==

Is there any way we could implement captcha to account creation to prevent the spambot problem we're having now? I've seen other wikis use that measure. Maybe also disable new page creation by anons? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:56, 6 January 2011 (EST)
:We already have CAPTCHA implemented on the account creation service. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 13:09, 6 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log in)
::Never mind, then! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:30, 6 January 2011 (EST)

== Real world events by day Category ==

These of course comprise every date of the year. However, I notice recently people have been adding fictional events to these dates. That basically invalidates the Category, since it's no longer comprised of only real-world events. The fictional events should be moved out into another section, or the category name should be changed to "Events by day". Thoughts? --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:01, 9 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree with changing to "Events by day". I would also support having separate fictional and real world sections on the pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:38, 9 January 2011 (EST)

== Project Wonderful ads ==

Um, guys, I found there [http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/53018-1293943633.gif Non-official products] in the ads of CapturedPrey. I know the small ads are showing up randomly (and may not be controllable since we can't regulate them), but I think it is still need to be reported here. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 01:04, 16 January 2011 (EST)
: I don't mind them in the non-permanent ads. TFSource used them all the time in their ads before we made them permanent sponsors. It was only when we made them a permanent sponsor did we ask to make them free of third-party product. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:57, 16 January 2011 (EST)

== Games <strike>fiction</strike> ==

Okay, now that [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] has flooded the character pages with stubs for 30 years worth of crappy Transformers games, can we reconsider how the Games sections are treated? I really don't think in-universe fiction descriptions are the way to handle it. [[War for Cybertron]] may've had a plot, but the majority of TF games are more in the vein of "hit things until they stop coming". A fiction section makes even less sense for games where the character selection is variable. ''"[[Hardhead (G1)#Transformers:_The_Headmasters|Hardhead]] may (or may not) have been present at this battle. Or this one. Or this..."'' Ditto for generic drone soldiers. Isn't there a way to address the games without trying to craft a sensical fiction for them? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:46, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree. The games should appear as merchandise on all relevant characters pages, but there is no need for a fiction write up for most games on those same pages. A generic write up on the game page should suffice. Something like "An Autobot warrior participated in a battle...", with a character box listing all potential "Autobot warriors" (aka playable characters). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Moving games to merchandise sounds awful. It would result in amazing amounts of lost information. I have no idea what doing that would solve. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:44, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::I think it depends on the game - for example in the ROTF console game, while you CAN play as multiple characters, the game provides a suggested one for you. IMO, that's who "actually" did the stuff depicted in the game (and the opposing side's campaign generally suggests it as well). When you can just pick from a half-dozen dudes and it doesn't matter, then maybe a brief summary of the game's plot and a note. "Jerkwagon was one of many Autobots involved in blah blah plot synopsis bluh. NOTE: Such-and-such game allowed players to choose multiple protagonists, including Jerkwagon." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 13:19, 25 January 2011 (EST)
I agree that Games should be their own section -- there's certainly enough of them, and they should be treated differently than keychains and what-not. But I think an out-of-universe description of the games would be better in most cases. Instead of having to write vague text like ''"As Ultra Magnus searched for the truth behind Optimus Prime's death, he battled Trypticon in a game of death and suffering."'', which is about all the plot I could wrangle out of [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy|Convoy no Nazo]] and tells you virtually nothing, we could write something more informative, like ''"Trypticon is the boss of Stage 10."'', and describe what actually happens in the game instead of trying to make it sound like believable fiction. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:29, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::My personal view on the matter is, from a character's page, I should be able to find EVERY place that character has appeared. And when we do list guys having an appearance when they're most likely an animation error in the far-background of an episode, I don't think there's any excuse to NOT list an appearance of a character wherever he might appear, including board and video games. Is that a lot of work? Yeah. But beneath all the jokes that make this place so great, this is still an encyclopedia, and purposely leaving out information out of an encyclopedia is wrong. Though I think Hooper X has the right idea... I doesn't have to be the most super-extensive write up. Heck, I was even going to suggest just having a link saying "See Return of Convoy article" or something like that. Also: I apologize if I had started getting very sloppy last night, but looking back, it was like 5 in the morning by the time I finished up. Yikes. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:10, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::I totally agree that the games should be dealt with on the character pages. I'm just looking for an option other than a completely in-fiction description. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 15:14, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::: The first idea that comes to mind is having a subsection called "Gameplay" or something like that for each game write-up, something that would be similar to a note? Though really, my main solution for stuff like that has been, up to this point, to just stick a couple of notes in the game write-up, like on [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s page. I'll keep on trying to think up other solutions though... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:26, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::Storylinks already serve as that, so what's the point of another link? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:47, 25 January 2011 (EST)

== Fiction order guide? ==

I've been over the Style guides a few times trying to find if a page like this already exists, but it doesn't look like it. I'll be the first to admit that when adding in new fiction/game subsections to a character's article, I sometimes confuse and probably put them out of order. So I've been wondering if a page that lists every fictional work and game in the proper order of each other would be a good idea? On one hand, it seems like an ABSURD amount of work for a style guide, one that would have to be CONSTANTLY updated as new things come out. On the other hand, it would be very handy to have a list to reference for character pages. Especially because it can get VERY frustrating trying to hunt down which book/cartoon/whatever came first in the same year. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about, here's an example I quickly put together, using the [[Cheetor (BW)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]] pages as reference.

When listing a character's media appearances, use this sorting order:
*Fiction
**Generation 1 Marvel Comics continuity
**Generation 1 S.T.A.R.S. pack-in flyers
**Generation 1 cartoon continuity
**Generation 1 Kid Stuff Talking Story Books
**Generation 1 Big Looker Story Books
**Generation 1 Ladybird Books continuity
**''Transformers in 3-D''
**''Transformers PD Type'' comic
**''Comic Bom Bom G-2'' comic
**Beast Wars First wave toy bios
**Beast Wars Cartoon continuity
***Dawn of Future's Past
***''Beast Wars'' cartoon
***Fast Action Battlers toyline
***3H ''Tales from the Beast Wars'' comics
***IDW ''Beast Wars'' comics
***''Transformers Legends'' anthology
***''Beast Machines'' cartoon
***''Beast Machines'' toy bio
***''Universe'' comic
***''Beast Wars Metals'' comic
***Beast Wars ''Henkei! Henkei!'' pack-in comic
**Generation 1 Dreamwave comics continuity
**''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''
**''Transformers/G.I. Joe''
**Generation 1 IDW comics continuity
**''Hearts of Steel''
**''Music Label''
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' (pack-in comic)
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' Bun Bun manga
**Alternity
**''Robot Heroes'' comic
**''Universe'' cartoon
**Wings of Honor

Is this a good idea? Would anyone actually like to see this kind of thing, or would I just be putting a whole bunch of work into something we don't need? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:28, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:We do need standardization of section names. The section order, however, depends on order in which the character appeared in those continuities in the real world. Then the subsections are ordered by the fictional chronology. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:35, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::No wonder I get confused by this fiction order thing. @_@ I guess I might just be one of those people that will never get the hang of some of these things. And yeah, the section names was definitely something else I wanted to tackle, since I've seen at times no less than four different ways to refer to a certain media. I sometimes have to check the storylinks at the end to be sure it's all part of the same story! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:45, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Note that, within a continuity, flashbacks and time travel can mean that experiential fictional chronology for one character requires a different order of headings than for another. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:16, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::In regards to standardization, I have an idea. What if we create a list of headers (kept on this page perhaps) used on Optimus Prime (G1)'s page (probably has the greatest number of different headers), use that as our initial standards list, then update it as we find other headers or decide to change the existing standards? Once we think we've covered the majority of possibilities, we could move it to a help page and make it official policy. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:49, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::::I put together [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a sandbox along these lines]] a couple of years ago. It hasn't been updated in quite a while, and I'm not sure it was ever actually complete, and it was the subject of [[User_talk:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a bit of debate]]... but there it is, for what it's worth. (Also, I support standardization of headers, but I've run into [[Talk:Ricochet_(Headmasters)#Header|some]] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive22#Section_naming_conventions|opposition]] over the nitty-gritty before, so best of luck.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 06:11, 8 February 2011 (EST)

== Foreign name reorganization ==

Is there any chance we could consider moving the foreign names somewhere else in the article other than at the top? We've already established a new standard for episodes, but characters could stand to have their names moved to their own dedicated section, likely under "Notes". There, we could add things like kana and Cyrillic forms of names not different from the English version. Opinions? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 4 February 2011 (EST)
:I'm in favor of it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:33, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::All things considered, since this is (mostly) an english-centric wiki when it comes to stuff, the foreign names do come off as being interesting trivia more than anything else. I'm in favour of this too. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:37, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I'm fine with where they are now, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:39, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I can see the logic in them being moved down to notes. You've got an in-universe profile, then a bunch of out-of-universe names, then the in-universe fiction section. The only argument I have against it is that I'm used to seeing the foreign names at the top. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:05, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::If it can be moved downward (to the first entry of the notes section or a new section after the notes section) instead of being on the top, MOVE it. Originally, I'm fine withe where they are {{m-}} but that would be a character with fewer foreign names. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 19:55, 4 February 2011 (EST)
Any further opinions on this? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:36, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:What about cases where some of the extra names at the top are English, e.g. Omni Productions names, or preliminary or nicknames? Would they remain at the top or become notes too? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:29, 21 February 2011 (EST)
::The Malay dub still technically counts as foreign in my mind. Nicknames should be integrated in the introduction (or notes section), and preliminary names should have been in notes in the first place, since they aren't the characters' "real names" in any sense. Further elaboration of the preliminary names better suits the notes section, anyway. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:43, 21 February 2011 (EST)
Japanese names are often for a character in a slightly different continuity. Like "Fire Convoy" is a Car Robots character and "Optimus Prime" is an RID character, but they share the same page. Or "Flame Convoy" is a Galaxy Force character but "Scourge" is a Cybertron character. In that case they should have the Japanese name up top. The names that are just different language versions of the English character can go on bottom. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:18, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:... no. ''Cybertron'' and ''Galaxy Force'' are NOT different stories (Takara officially put GF back in the same timeline as the prior two series), and the ''RID/CR'' split is a unique case. In neither case should the names go up top. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:44, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::They are slightly different continuities. Galaxy Force doesn't have the [[Omega Frequency]] for example. And the Grand Black Hole is different. And the [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity]] is different. [[Blaster (G1)|Broadcast]] never became Twincast in English. I think Japanese names are a special case and deserve to be on top since Japanese toyline & fiction continuity is always slightly separate. But I can hit the "end" key on the keyboard easy enough. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::Every single foreign language version of something is technically a slightly different continuity, strictly due to the nature of translation. This is not a arena in which Galaxy Force is unique. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== Commercial Appearances section ==

Alright, so I plan later on to start going through characters' pages and add in a "Commercial Appearances" section where it applies (sorry, I can't this weekend... homework to do!). Several characters already have this section and a lot of these commercials have nice short animations or other interesting characterizations and tidbits that I think they bear to be included in the characters' pages. Although, much like the Games sections, I'll only be able to marginally help by adding in the section itself to let people know that there's work to be done on a character's page... MY computer is so incredibly shitty that I can't even play videos off youtube. D:

But anyways, the reason I'm bringing this up here is because before I get started, I'd like to discuss what kind of format we want for this section, so it can be done right the first time around. Obviously, where it applies, stuff like indicating who the voice actor for the character makes sense, but should the write-up be in-universe or not? Since commercials fluctuate between using a short animation telling a mini-story and just being a straight-up commercial saying "buy this toy!" should a combination of both in-universe and out-of-universe description be used? And should we count the parts where the kids brandish their action figures and talk for the character as dialog spoken by the character? That's all the questions on the subject I can really think of for now... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:12, 6 February 2011 (EST)
:I would write up the animation segments in-universe so long as they're unique to the commercial (i.e. not just recycled footage from one of the cartoons). Anything else that's notable enough could qualify for an out of universe note. But I wouldn't bother with recycled animation or the kids talking for the figures. That doesn't qualify as fiction to me.
:In regards to your inability to view the commercials, would it help if you could download them in some fashion and then watch them offline? Maybe burn the videos to a DVD disc? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:43, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, any clips taken from pre-existing mediums would be redundant from those scenes being already covered in other sections on that character's page. Personally though, I'm still on the fence about the kids talking for the figures... I find it comparable to botcon script readings in a way... People just talking out loud for a character without any accompanying animation... I'm prone to be swayed either way. As for me viewing the commercials themselves, my spring break is a week from now. I might have access to a better computer then, but otherwise I'll just be putting in information already available on the wiki to the appropriate pages throughout the week, I guess. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 17:53, 6 February 2011 (EST)

==How to resolve monster debates?==
[[User:-Blackout-]]'s recent meltdown over being prevented from editing [[Goldbug (IDW)]] has made me think again about how policy/content discussions tend to go on this wiki. It's a big part of why I haven't been around since last summer: I found myself perpetuating these miles-long debates that few cared to read, everyone was irritated by, and most importantly ''were impossible to resolve.''

That Goldbug article is a sterling example. Right now, people are talking about it as if the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1|giant]] [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2|debate]] had resolved in favor of the current setup, so changing the article at this point is taboo because it "was dealt with already." But that's not how it went at all. Blackout's dickishly unilateral edit-war was definitely the Wrong Way to reopen this, but it's also wrong to pretend that we had achieved consensus or closure on the issue.

At [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2#Breaking down the problem|the end of the debate]], I had restated the case for [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Goldbug (G1)|my "Goldbug (G1)" sandbox]], which is definitely different from the current setup, and 6 other people declared support for it while 2 objected at length. But the objectors were also against the current setup: Jeysie wanted the toy gone, and Derik wanted... something inscrutable and Deriky. Combining those numbers with the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1#Vote Tally|premature vote]] that had been taken earlier (and adjusting for the voters who changed their minds by the end), I count:

Sandbox: 8 
Sandbox with modifications: 3 
Current page: 7 
Current page without the toy: 2

That's not consensus. That's deadlock. In fact, there were fewer votes to keep the page as-is than there were to change it in some fashion. The current setup didn't win out in terms of votes, logic, precedent, or any other measure: It won out because it was what happened to be there when the debate died of exhaustion.

So we're stuck with an awkward page that most people want to be different, encased in concrete forevermore. I don't see any way out of this situation, and I've watched the same principle play out with other debates too many times. At the very least, I wonder if it would be helpful to have a Template:Deadlock that we could slap on inconclusive debates (with a picture of [[Drift (G1)|Deadlock]], natch) so people know the true state of things.

Taking that idea further, maybe it could come with a period of enforced moratorium – say, two weeks – followed by a revote and/or a formalized "final statements" opportunity? The most extreme option I can think of is to create a "council of elders" that has the community-bestowed power to resolve intractable debates and declare relevant policy principles. Basically, a Supreme Court. I do worry that creating an authoritative heirarchy might produce even more problems, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:20, 9 February 2011 (EST)
: This whole argument goes to the heart of what we mean when we say two characters are "the same". The Bumblebee toy was produced and fiction was made to promote that toy, thus all of those fictions (which differ from each other) are about "the same" character. The Goldbug toy was produced with a tech spec that stated that it was "the same" character as Bumblebee. Fiction was produced to promote that toy, thus all those varying depictions of Goldbug are "the same" character as Bumblebee. The same argument applies to the differing backstories of Optimus Prime; Orion Pax and Optronix are "the same" character because they both are earlier forms of the character that was used to promote the sale of the Optimus Prime toy. The problem comes in with later stories that are not produced to promote those original toys. How do we decide what is the same? When is a character "the same character under different circumstances/in a different universe" and when is it simply an homage character? I really can't see how others see the IDW Goldbug as "the same" character as the original toy and not (as I see him) as a simple homage character. Under their viewpoint the toy belongs, under mine it doesn't. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:15, 10 February 2011 (EST)

: I NOMINATE MYSELF AS FINAL ARBITER AND SUPREME OVERLORD. all decisions will be made based on what amuses me the most. (seriously, we probably ought to have some kind of "no consensus" tag for articles like that.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:58, 10 February 2011 (EST)

Mmm...probably best not to restart the Goldbug debate itself here, Khajidha -- that would quickly distract from what Jackpot's actually asking here, which is how debates should be resolved ''in general''.

Some of the basic rules we already follow should remain. No "edit-warring"...leave it up to the Talk Pages to hash out the problem. I don't think a mere two weeks is enough to give people time to change their minds, though, especially in this crowd. One thing I notice is that despite dozens of regular contributors and hundreds overall, most Talk Page or Community Portal votes I've seen have less than 20 votes at the end. Many of these debates fly right under the radar. I'm relatively active here, but the Goldbug (IDW) chaos completely passed me by.

What about, when a Talk Page debate has clearly reached an impasse between <strike>obstinant</strike> strong-willed parties, a Vote is taken on the ''Main Page''? Some sort of easy-to-see box temporarily added to the Main Page, "above the fold" so that its visible to all visitors when they enter? It would be more noticeable than if the vote is hidden away on a single Talk Page people may or may not see. Something like ''"A [[Deadlock]] has arisen! Choose from the following choices: Should [[Goldbug (IDW)]] have the G1 toy on his page? Yes or No? (See the Goldbug (IDW) Talk Page for the full debate.)"''

I realize many debates won't be as simple as Yes or No, but if the debating parties agree in advance how to phrase the Voting Box, it could be a useful tool. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 13:07, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:Yeah, wasn't really trying to restart that debate. Was bringing up questions about general character debates, as they seem to occur quite often. But other debates also bog down, so I recognize that my questions don't apply to those debates.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:35, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:I like the idea of keeping a debate in the regulars' faces until a decision has been reached by enough people (at least 20? 25?). Many debates I keep away from because I think they'll disappear anyway and my vote doesn't really matter <s>and I also can't deal all that well with the aggressive nature of most debates, making it actively a lose-only situation if I'd enter</s>. I'm not sure if others feel that way, but I imagine this would be a boost for all to participate. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::I absolutely disagree with the premise that people who don't care enough to read the argument should have it shoved in their face until they vote. AT MOST, we should mention it somewhere prominent, like the community portal. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:53, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:::I agree that essentially putting a ballot on the front page is asking for trouble. You might get the dozens of votes you're looking for, but they'll all be uninformed gut reactions. One of the reasons these debates happen is that issues can be much more complicated and subtle than they seem at first glance. Plus one would hope that the reasoning behind the winning option would help develop our policies, but if the decisions are made by the majority of an explicitly uninformed mob, it's hard to glean any substantial precedent out of that.
:::But I think an approach like that ''could'' be combined with my "final statements" suggestion. Thinking out loud here: After a cooling-off period has been declared and a set amount of time has passed, anyone who wants to present a case can write up a defense of his or her preferred option. Those are all submitted to a neutral volunteer, who then posts them simultaneously on the relevant Talk page, and those become the voting choices. No replies are allowed, only votes. We put a notice up at least on the Community Portal, possibly on the Main Page, for another set time period, then close voting and go with the majority.
:::How does that sound? Like I said, thinking out loud, so suggestions are more than welcome.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:18, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::::Sounds pretty good to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:19, 11 February 2011 (EST)

==How featured articles are chosen==
On a side note, would a box like that also be useful to start a voting system for featured pages? Because I'm fine with Drift and Wreck-Gar and all others before, but I am absolutely clueless as to who chose them to become featured for what reasons. I'd like to see a better system for that. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: If there was a recently-completed article that's of respectable length, I choose it. The pool for featured articles is pretty damn small. Not many articles are finished, and the ones that are finished have usually already been Featured Articles already. Finished articles don't happen very frequently, so sometimes we find one that's close to completion near the end of a month and then push to finish it before the month is over. Sometimes we think a subject or a character is timely (like around BotCon, or before an episode or movie premiere) and push for that. If you want a heads up, Chris McFeely's [[Matrix of Leadership]] article is so totally March's. (I think Chris has the record for number of articles he's completed which have become featured.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:31, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: Long story short, if you want an article to be featured, finish it. That means photos for every toy and known merchandise, and storylinks (with summaries) to every piece of fiction they've appeared in. Behind the scenes information helps. The longer and more involved the article, the more appealing it is. Meaning, finishing an article for a Mini-Con who showed up in the background somewhere, or finishing an article for someone who doesn't have any illutrated appearances... these are probably not going to be featured. But people like Perceptor (G1) or Side Burn (RID) or High Wire (Armada) have enough about them to say to make an interesting featured article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:36, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: "Long story short," my ass. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:37, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:: Have we done any episodes as Featured yet? I know the over-arching "Target 2006" article was chosen once. You'd think we could get, say [[Code of Hero]] up to that standard pretty quickly. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 07:42, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::I really think we need to get [[BotCon]] up to that standard. We're pretty close! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]] is a Featured article about an episode. [[User:Excise|Excise]] 00:00, 16 February 2011 (EST)

== Letterers ==
On images of comic pages, do we credit the ''letterers'' by placing the image in an "Image by Letterer Name" category? We've got a few contradictory examples around. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:32, 12 February 2011 (EST)
:Okay, three options: For images currently in categories like "Images by Mike Scott" (where Mike Scott is a letterer), we can:
:# Create the category and treat letterers just like artists, inkers, and colorists.
:# Instead place them in a "Images ''lettered'' by Mike Scott" category.
:# Remove the category, and not attempt to categorize images by letterer.
:I'm probably going to go with option 3 barring dissent. [[User:JW|JW]] 17:25, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I added galleries to a few of the pages for letterers (eg [[Bill Oakley]], [[Peri Godbold]]) on the basis that lettering can make or [[:Image:Cryotekmrrghmraghmrugghagh.jpg|break]] a comic. As well as adding the text, the letterer has to pick where the balloons will go and place, them, so they do have a large degree of control over how the comic turns out. That said, I don't know that we need to categorise images by letterer. The original intention was [[:Category talk:Images by artist|not to]], but it looks like we ended up doing it anyway, and at least one template is set up to put images into category by letterer. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I'd vote for option 3 as well.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:02, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I'm leaning towards option 3 myself. My reasoning is that even though letterers can have a large effect on a comic, I don't see too many people wanting to find every image lettered by a given letterer. The galleries, on the other hand, are useful for demonstrating the quality of an individual's work. So those should be used. While the obsessive in me thinks we should categorize images by every applicable characteristic, it's not realistic. I don't think it benefits us enough to go through all that work for categories that only a few people might find useful. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:09, 17 February 2011 (EST)
'Kay, I'm going to go with option 3. This may involve editing a template or two. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:35, 17 February 2011 (EST)

== Categories by toy size class? ==
Do we ''want'' the following categories?
 Leader class toy images
 Deluxe class toy images
 Voyager class toy images
 Scout class toy images
 They currently have a very few things in them (and could obviously have many more), but the cat' pages themselves have not been created. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:43, 12 February 2011 (EST)

:No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:13, 12 February 2011 (EST)

::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:06, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:::As long as it's only the images and not the articles, I couldn't care less. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:09, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:There's also a "Legends class toy images" category which has 90 images in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:21, 15 February 2011 (EST)

::Legends are kind of an exception because they're a different scale/play pattern, as evidenced by the upcoming Cyberverse stuff. Scouts-on-up are ''generally'' meant to intermingle, Legends aren't. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:41, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I could go either way on this one. It's a lot of work to fill these categories out, but the ability to find all the Deluxe figures easily intrigues me. If we did institute this I would also think that this would be the proper place to put the "exclusive figure" categories and such. Basically, any category that pertains to a particular toy and not to the character could be tagged to the image of that toy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 23:08, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:I've been doing them because I saw other people do them. I don't mind either way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:51, 16 February 2011 (EST)
So, counting me as "no", that's three "no"s, an "I don't care", an "I don't mind either way", and an "either way/intrigues me". I think we're leaning toward "no". Final comments? [[User:JW|JW]] 07:08, 16 February 2011 (EST)

::I guess it's "no" or at least "not the time"? (Though I'm "I'm not sure".) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 11:21, 16 February 2011 (EST)
:::I've gone with "no", and added a note to that effect to [[Transformers_Wiki:Images]]. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:27, 16 February 2011 (EST)

Ha ha, none of the no's have actually said why they've said no. Such super debating skills that. [[Special:Contributions/213.105.226.130|213.105.226.130]] 17:44, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Undo Redone? ==

I just undid an edit, but instead of getting the automatic "Reverting edit ##### by User1 to last version by User2" summary, that box was blank. In addition, above the edit window were the captions "Current revision" and "Your text", side by side, as if there's meant to be one editable text window under each. Instead, there was only one such text window beneath them, stretching across under both captions. The page is protected so only registered users can edit it, so that MIGHT have something to do with the problem, though I doubt it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:28, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:It doesn't automatically create an edit summary if you're doing an undo on multiple revisions, so that might be it. Not sure about the other part - it's always shown me a diff at the top of the screen when I've done an undo. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:54, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::Okay, blank edit summary's explained, because it was indeed a group of 3-4 edits being undone all at once. Still inexplicable is the fact that I just checked the page history; it didn't even accept my Undo! LoneGamer78 ended up doing it instead. I've noticed some sluggish response from the site over the past fifteen minutes or so, perhaps whatever caused that was a factor? It may never be known...--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:02, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::Is it possible she just beat you to it by a few moments and thus there was an edit conflict? I've had that happen sometimes, and so there's no diff shown because now the page already matches what you were going to change it to. (Uh, does that make sense?) --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 22:17, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::::Can't rule it out entirely, but edit conflicts usually announce themselves as such, and they DO have two distinct editable text windows: one showing the text as it stands after someone edited while you were typing, the other as it would have been if you'd edited without interference.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:24, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::::A few times I've "undone" an edit, but someone else beat me to it. It doesn't seem to show an edit conflict if that happens, probably because the change is identical to the previous one. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:06, 19 February 2011 (EST)

== Banner ad question. ==
The small side box ad (the one that's still a free-floater) currently has an ad for some webcomic. Which is fine, but one of the panels has GIANT ERECT LADY NIPPLES ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm not offended by it, but it's, uh, something. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 06:39, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:Ah, yeah. That'd be because it's an NSFW comic called DarkBrain which is read aloud by "adult film star Tabitha Stevens." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:50, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:: If people don't like it, I can yank it. I didn't think its THO was that objectionable, apparently, when I okayed it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:27, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== help ==

I cant find the latest talk please help([[User:Manmcmanman|Manmcmanman]] 15:44, 21 February 2011 (EST))
:What do you mean by the latest talk? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 15:54, 21 February 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen Online Games ==

So, I figured I might as well finish up the online game write-ups for Revenge of the Fallen online games, in case they go offline once Dark of the Moon comes out. But, hot damn, do I ever suck. Which means I'm not very likely to get pics of later levels in some of these games. I'll be trying to add in whatever I can to these sections, but some help would be much appreciated! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:I can have a go at getting some screencaps tonight if no one else does. Which games in particular? I noticed some of them are already gone a couple of weeks ago, as Hasbro has redirected most of the monkeybar site they were on to the Hub site, which doesn't have them. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::Well, personally I'm having difficulty getting pics of every character's sprite from Battle for the Matrix. I'm currently working on The RPMs Devastator game. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 18:41, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::I got caps of everyone except the Fallen, haven't uploaded them yet though. I couldn't get the [[flying drone]]s to transform either. They just seem to fly around wildly in robot mode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::Dang! The Fallen is the only one I can't get to either! And yeah, the flying drones are near-impossible to get a screencap of. I got a couple mid-transformation, but that's it. If any of your pics are better than mine, feel free to replace them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:55, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::::I went and got pics from Flight of the Bumblebee and Allspark Highway. Unfortunately I can't get pics of Ratchet from the later since robovision isn't up anymore! Darn! I'll upload them later. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:45, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I grabbed a screenshot of The Fallen finally. Man, that game is a memory hog. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:38, 25 February 2011 (EST)

== Countdown? ==

Sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a while back ago, there was a countdown to ROTF on the Main Page. Perhaps a countdown to DOTM would now be appropriate as it's so close?

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to program/insert/design/<insert verb here> a countdown on a wiki page (it's for another wiki). What template or whatever does that use? I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me.

Again, terribly sorry if this is the wrong place to say this...
 - [[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:02 PM, 22 February 2011 A.D.
:Dark of the Moon countdown based on Derik's ROTF code: {{#expr: ({{ #time: U |July 1, 2011}} - {{ #time: U }})/86400 round 0}} days until [[Dark of the Moon (film)|TF: Dark of the Moon]]! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (EST)

==When to omit "Transformers" from an article title==
So I got a hankering to remove the "Transformers" from [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and all of their related pages, since unlike [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]], there's just no good reason to break policy for them. There are [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|other video games that we drop the "TF" from]], and if "Prime" is too common a term, then what about "[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]" or "[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]"?

But then I decided to check out [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?ns0=1&search=Transformers&searchx=Search&limit=500 which pages use "Transformers" in their titles,] and holyyyyyyyy crap. I copy-pasted here all the ones I found that I thought could lose the "Transformers" without negating their meaning, destroying a phrase, or otherwise severely damaging the title. (I added an "(etc.)" to each one that represents a series of identically-worded pages):

[[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Animated (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)]] 
[[1-2-3 Transformers]] 
[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Legends]] 
[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: The Headmasters (video game)]] 
[[The Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Energon Within]] 
[[The Transformers Collection]] 
[[Transformers Quest]] 
[[Transformers Key Recovery: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Power Up: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed]] 
[[Transformers PD Type]] 
[[Transformers: The Animated Movie]] 
[[Transformers Generations]] 
[[Transformers: Rise of the Chevy Autobots]] 
[[Transformers Annual 1990]] (etc.) 
[[The Transformers Sticker Book (1986)]] 
[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)]] 
[[Transformers: The Junior Novel]] 
[[Look and Find Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Coloring and Activity Book and Crayons]] 
[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers: Learn to Count Activity Tablet]] 
[[Transformers The Reusable Sticker Book]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Storybook]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Guide]] 
[[Transformers Prime Time]] 
[[Transformers Mix & Match]] 
[[Transformers Comic issue 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers The Game (console)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Autobots/Decepticons]] 
[[Transformers History of Music 1984-1990]] 
[[Transformers: Mosaic]] 
[[Transformers Name Generator]] 
[[Transformers Battle Universe]] 
[[The Transformers: Binaltech & TF Collection Complete Guide]] 
[[The Transformers Comic Magazine]] 
[[Transformers Pop-Up Book]] 
[[Transformers Visualworks]] 
[[Transformers Tooth Tunes]] 
[[Transformers Tapestry]] 
[[Transformers Song Universe]] 
[[Transformers G1: Awakening]] 
[[Transformers Armada Annual 2004]] 
[[Transformers: Beginnings]] 
[[Transformers the Movie water]] 
[[Transformers: The Score]] 
[[Transformers: The Thirteen]] 
[[Transformers: War Within Omnibus]] 
[[Transformers: The Ride]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Mutating Card Game]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Jigsaw Puzzle]] 
[[Transformers: Kōtetsu no Yūki]] 
[[The Transformers Continuum: The Definitive Chronology]] 
[[The Transformers: Bumblebee]] 
[[Transformers Adventures]] (etc.) 
[[Top Trumps: Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Race for the Mini-Con Robots]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Battle Begins]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Secret of the Star Saber]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Autobots Strike Back]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 1]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 2]] 
[[Transformers Theme Song Collection]] 
[[The Transformers: Drift]] 
[[Transformers Revenge of the Fallen Annual 2010]] 
[[Transformers CyberToy]] 
[[Transformers Hall of Fame]] 
[[The Transformers: Ironhide]] 
[[Transformers Evo.]] 
[[The Transformers Legends of the Microns: Sound of Evolution Vol. 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Music Matrix]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide: Revenge]] 
[[Transformers: Battle for the Matrix]] 
[[Transformers: Coloring and Activity Book and Stickers]] 
[[Transformers: Activity Book and Gel Pen]] 
[[Transformers: Sector 7]] 
[[Transformers: Cybertron Adventures]] 
[[Transformers Cards]] 
[[Transformers RPMs: Devastator's Demise]] 
[[Cadbury's Transformers Card Game]] 
[[Ridiculous Legend Transformers]] 
[[Famicom How-to Manga: Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Transformers Caramel]] 
[[Transformers Comic-Magazin]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Extra Comic-Sonderheft]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Super-Auswahlband]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Energon Valentine's cards]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 1]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 2]]

For many of them, the choice to keep or drop the "TF" seems intuitive, and many others are in a grey area... but I'll be damned if I can put into words any kind of coherent rationale. I'm seriously thinking that we've outgrown the "drop extraneous 'TF's" rule. Back when we only had a few hundred pages, it made a certain kind of sense: Why bother writing out stuff like "Transformers: Generation 2" when just "Generation 2" is equally meaningful to everyone here? Besides, isn't every page about Transformers by default? But in the past five years, both the wiki and the subject matter have exploded, and with both so many fine-grain, obscure topics being covered and so much not-strictly-TF content we've added, I don't think the policy serves us anymore. It doesn't make things simple; it makes things arbitrary and unpredictable.

So unless someone can sum up our policy in a way that makes a lick of sense, I propose: '''If a topic has an official title, then that should be used in full as the title of the relevant articles.''' Period. So [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] would stay right where they are, and yes, [[Generation 2 (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)", [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)", etc. I don't think we'd need to make that change happen instantly, but we could slowly propagate it as people feel inclined to. I also think we can keep the parenthetical abbreviations and in-sentence references as short as they currently are; this is only about the titles.

Thoughts?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:What are these "Transformers"? -[[Special:Contributions/75.185.113.106|75.185.113.106]] 18:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I've always been for having the full name as article titles. (Maybe also drop the "(franchise)" disambigs, because durr, but that's other topic.) Not only do we keep the full name of the subject, it aids us in disambiguation (it's easier to have smaller sets of "Transformers: Cybertron" and "Cybertron" than a large set of just "Cybertron"). [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::I don't have an opinion on adding or removing "Transformers:" from articles (other than that adding it would perhaps make articles and reading unnecessarily longer - right now, I hate having to type out "Transformers Animated" before "The AllSpark Almanac"), but I do oppose removing (franchise). If there's one thing I hate, it's when there's one 'most important' page that goes undisamb'ed (like Spark) and you'll have to go through a lot of trouble to ensure it all is meant to link there. When I cleaned up the Lithone links for planet and species, nearly every single one link directed the wrong way. Same for D-HQ, AllSpark vs Allspark, Junkion, Black Friday, etc. So, keep (franchise). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:49, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I too think "Transformers: " should be kept as well as " (franchise)". --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:46, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::I don't mind losing Transformers when it the prefix in a title that's the form of Transformers: <subtitle>, as in that case the subtitle itself is more the actual official name and "Transformers" is just tacked on as an extra identifier.

::::But in some of those things, Transformers is, well, a vital part of the thing's actual name. I mean, for instance, the Club's full official name ''is'' "Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club", so removing "Transformers" from it would be incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 03:00, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I don't think that distinction is clear enough to be workable anymore. Looking at that list, tons of them I have no idea which side of the divide they'd fall on. For instance, "[[Transformers Legends]]" is the proper title of the book; that's how it would be listed in any store or library, but for ''our'' purposes the "TF" is as extraneous as the one that we omit from [[Energon (comic)]] or [[Dinobots Strike Back]]. The "for our purposes" thing is so often so questionable... like, what would that dictate for [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]? It's definitely a subtitle situation like you described, but there are lots of non-TF "Ultimate Guide"s published by the same company... but we would never cover them, so for our purposes is the "TF" still redundant?
:::::I agree with Geewunling that it would be annoying to have to type out longer titles (though readability should be unchanged, since I think we could still truncate in-sentence references). But right NOW it's annoying that our lack of a coherent policy is making everything increasingly unpredictable. We're seeing a lot of creep in the form of stuff like [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and for some reason video games. So I don't even know what should be "corrected" anymore or how to decide the matter when creating a new article.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 13:58, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::::The annoyance of editors doesn't really enter into my consideration; the wiki is ultimately for the readers, not our convenience. If we have to do some more work for the best presentation, so be it. —Interrobang, not logged in

:I'm OK with moving articles to put Transformers into the title so long as we don't delete the redirects. If we move "Revenge of the Fallen (film)" to "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)", there are going to be a whole bunch of sites linking to the old URL, and I don't wanna have a repeat of the "(Shattered Glass)" thing where all the redirects get deleted and a whole lot of other sites are pointing to useless error pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:25, 23 February 2011 (EST)

=="(WFC)" vs. "(Prime)"==
There are currently [[Talk:Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#"(WFC)" instead of "(Prime)" for characters that originated in this franchise?|two]] [[Talk:Optimus Prime (Prime)#Move|discussions]] going about whether articles on subjects that originated in ''War for Cybertron''-branded fiction (the [[War for Cybertron games|games]], [[Transformers: Exodus|novel]], and [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|comic]]) should be titled "(WFC)" rather than "(Prime)". It was suggested that this should be brought up in the Community Portal, so here it is.

For the record, looking at [[War for Cybertron games#Featured Characters|this list]], right now we're using "(Prime)" for all named characters, even those currently exclusive to WfC, and "(WFC)" for all character ''types'' from the games. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the state of things.

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:46, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I completely agree with Jackpot. It is stupid we have an article called [[Ultra Magnus (Prime)]] stating "Ultra Magnus is an Autobot Wrecker from the WFC portion of the Aligned family continuity". I blame myself for not doing this a lot earlier, treating the WFC navbox as like a subsection of Prime when the novel was so clearly a tie-in to those games. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 18:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::WFC is a tie-in game. As I pointed out, how many Mini-Cons from the PS2 Transformers game use the disambiguator "(Transformers)"? And even then, what of novel-original characters? Do they get "(Exodus)"? And heck, didn't Exodus come out ''before'' WFC? Shouldn't the characters thusly use "(Exodus)" over "(WFC)" or "(Prime)"? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::: The book and game came out on the same day, as I recall. So... yeah. I'm completely against this. We used "Prime" because that was the name we WERE using for the continuity family; frankly, I find this wishy-washy "aligned continuity family" thing pretty lame. The core of the damn family is the Prime cartoon. It is THE central feature, and will be THE major fictional outlet and -almost assuredly- what future non-show fictions will adhere more closely to. I don't see the point in all this subdividing and adding more parantheticals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:19, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::I find it ''extremely'' hard to believe that if Hasbro's "decade" plan goes through, ''Prime'' is the last franchise we're going to see spring from it. Even Aaron Archer thinks "Prime" is a bad name for the overall deal. Given what a fractured start it's already off to, I think separating out the "family" foundation is the only sensible thing to do. So that's why [[Aligned continuity family]] exists.
::::As for the "(WFC)" notion, I'm not as personally attached to that, even though I do think it's the correct thing to do. Mostly I think that WfC needs to be acknowledged as an entity unto itself, not just a subset of ''Prime''. Strictly from a branding point of view, it ISN'T a subset; nothing has been both WfC- and Prime-branded. It's not just the title of a video game; it's in the titles of [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|a comic]] and [[Transformers: Exodus|a novel]], plus they've made [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#Toys|toys from it]] that definitely don't fit the ''Prime'' brand. (True, the toys aren't labeled "WfC", but that's par for the course with ''Generations'' anyway. At the very least, it's a grey area.) Beyond branding, it just has a unique aesthetic and sensibility that's very different from ''Prime''.
::::Based on all that, the best place WfC fits in our schema is as a "franchise", to my judgement. "''Prime'' tie-in" doesn't cut it.
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:55, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::WFC is not ''just'' a tie-in game. It has [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fcfb1b5-19b9-f369-10be-e91a2108d9ab online bios] and [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172 online timeline]. Hasbro made it its own thing. Franchise-like. Before any Prime show started we learned from the timeline that [[Megatron (Prime)|D-16]] was an Energon mine laborer and rose to prominence in secret gladiatorial combat and took the name "Megatron". So [[Megatron (Prime)]] had a whole history before the show even existed. The non-show characters with the (Prime) disambiguation also shows it doesn't quite fit. I'd go for WFC. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:35, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::AGAIN, Exodus came out the SAME DAY. So why does WFC get prominence? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:56, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::Because that's the phrase that's used in the names of [[War for Cybertron games|all]] [[Transformers: Exodus|the]] [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|media]]. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:02, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I don't see how the subline "The official history of the war for Cybertron" is the exact same as "War For Cybertron: The Vidya Game". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:24, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::I agree. Aside from three (ambiguous) words on the book's front, there's not much that says it's part of the WFC "franchise". Same for Generations. If they wanted to, they could have made figures of every War for Cybertron character and released it in a toyline explicitly called "Transformers: War for Cybertron". But they didn't; they just released five toys based on WFC designs and released them under Generations, so Generations is a WFC toy line as much as it is a G1 one (actually, probably more of G1 considering how very few WFC toys there were). The video games are only different because of hardware limitations, so having multiple games with the same title does not a franchise make. Having a website with bios and everything is a moot point, because almost every video game has that. The comic, I'll give you that one, but I don't think it's a franchise if it's a game and a tie-in comic with a limited release. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:30, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::For what it's worth, when you [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/movie-news/Transformers-War-for-Cybertron.cfm click on "War For Cybertron"] it brings up all the Generations toys. I also think the WFC timeline ties in Exodus to WFC since the events in the comic and timeline are basically from the book. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::It also brings up PCC Icepick (item 12 of 12, on page 2). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:52, 28 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::The WfC-branded timeline and comic both cover events in ''Exodus''. Hell, the comic was written by the same dude. I don't understand the logic that says that the "War for Cybertron" in the novel's title doesn't mean the same thing. If there were a novel called "Deuteronomy: The Official History of the Beast Wars" set during the events of the cartoon, I wouldn't be trying to say it was part of the ''Beast Machines'' franchise.
::::::::Let me put in a slightly different light: Because franchises are branding-based, not continuity-based, I'm not comfortable with the ''Prime'' franchise being stretched to include all this stuff that doesn't have the ''Prime'' label on it. Yes, it's clearly all RELATED, story-wise, but that's what [[Aligned continuity family|continuity pages]] are for. This feels like taking ''Machine Wars'' (which is the opposite kind of sparse: a toyline with virtually no fiction) and rolling it into G2. Sure, they're in the same family, and there are connections between the two, but they're not marketed with the same label, so we don't do it. Before ''Prime'' existed, there were these other forms of media sharing a unique title (that even got the TF-logo lockup treatment!) and covering common ground. Then ''Prime'' showed up, and so far the two labels have not been seen on the same product. To me, that means two franchises.
::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::But... there is no overarching label on the products we have poked into the WFC "Franchise". "Transformers: War for Cybertron" has its own logo which is also on the tie-in comic, and Exodus has its own logo. They're still prequels to TF:Prime. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:33, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::::I guess I just see the "War for Cybertron" in the title of ''Exodus'' as having more meaning than you do. Yeah, Hasbro could've been more blatant if they'd wanted to, but it's still clearly telling the reader it's part of the same deal as the WfC games and comic, without making any reference to ''Prime'' (or vice-versa). I can imagine a situation where the ''Prime'' branding might retroactively subsume WfC, like how the "Wreckers" comic was given the ''Universe'' brand (they say there's another game coming out, after all). But that hasn't happened yet, so in the meantime I say WfC doesn't belong under the ''Prime'' franchise.
::::::::::Anyway, at this point if we don't see eye-to-eye, we probably won't, so I'm going to shut up now.
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:What about the next thing after ''Prime'' that is in the Modern/Aligned continuity? We would have a new disambiguation, like, "Spike (Next Franchise)." and characters that have never been in Prime, like "Ultra Magnus (Prime)." Kind of confusing. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::No it isn't. The idea that WFC/Exodus are part of a big wad of continuity colloquially known as "Prime", and referred to as "Prime" because the "Prime" cartoon is THE core of the whole shebang, and will liekly BE said core for the near future, is not a hard one. It only gets confusing when you start letting obfuscating pedantry in, at which point you're only making more work for no payoff and making things harder for our readers. A trend which seems to keep coming up over and over again, I've noticed... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:09, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::I'm pretty sure I've had my share of "obfuscating pedantry" moments, but I completely agree with Siph on this one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:18, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::For the record, if people really think that using "(WFC)" would be confounding to readers, that's not a decision I'm very invested in. This discussion has ballooned into bigger issues that I ''do'' feel more strongly about, but the parenthetical itself is very take-it-or-leave-it for me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I would at the least support migrating characters who have thus far ''only'' appeared in WFC to the appropriate parenthetical.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:55, 1 March 2011 (EST)
:And move them back if they appear in Prime? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 11:03, 1 March 2011 (EST)
::Yes. I think that would make the most sense to people looking for the characters.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::I am willing to make this compromise for the time being. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 14:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)

==War For Cybertron==
War for cybertron is a relativley new game, but it is a great one. I am kind of new on this website, but to me, it looks like the War For Cybertron title has gotten mixed up with Transformers: Prime, a completley diffrent universe. also, WFC is G1 Canon. All the WFC pages and articles should be labled on G1, MAJOR cleanup is needed. {{unsigned|Holymoses|06:30, March 3, 2011 (EST)}}
:You clearly ''are'' quite new, because we would advise you to read [[Aligned continuity family|this article]] before you start in on this notion. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 06:33, 3 March 2011 (EST)
:In Hasbro's own words: "The TRANSFORMERS brand team would like to confirm that Transformers War for Cybertron video game, Transformers Exodus novel, and the Transformers Prime television show are in the same aligned continuity. Hasbro is creating a single continuity to tell the bulk of our TRANSFORMERS stories going forward." Here's the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/8189/20/ link] to the announcement --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 06:45, 3 March 2011 (EST)
::You aren't completely wrong. The game developers were heavily inspired by G1, and were pretty much making a G1 game as far as they knew. It's just that, like Khajidha said, Hasbro says War for Cybertron is part of the same continuity as Prime, so that's what the wiki goes with. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:00, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Well that still seems weird, since "Prime" has a completley diffrent story, and "Exodus" doesnt connect the two sagas very well. even if its what Hasbro said, i think we should put all this into consideration, Aaron Archer himself said that War for Cybertron was a game set in the G1 Universe. I think its wrong of Hasbro to try and connect the two diffrent Continuities. {{unsigned|Holymoses|09:12, March 4, 2011 (EST)}}
:First of all, when did Aaron Archer say that? Second, Hasbro gets to define what is in each continuity for the simple reason that it is their intellectual property. It may not be to your liking, but it cannot be wrong as they are the ones who determine what is right. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, gonna need a source on that Archer statement. Especially since he's been amongst the ones saying WFC/Exodus is part of the new continuity. Also, weren't a lot of elements in WFC, like Dark Energon, Hasbro mandates from a story bible they supplied the creators (hereby proving that Hasbro's intent was always for it to be part of the new continuity), or am I imagining things again? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:08, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::From what I read about that production bible, it is a result of guys at Hasbro sitting down and "[http://collider.com/roberto-orci-jeff-kline-interview-transformers-prime/75039/ coalescing all the mythologies] that they had institutionally for years. Actually putting it down to paper." It sounds like they were just collecting and not adding new stuff in. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Energon were added ''after'' it was in the game. And what about timing? Orci said Hasbro put together the bible after the movies came out (in mid 2009). The video game came out in mid 2010 with a video game lead time of ??? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::Unless Dark Energon is actually just the new name for Angolmois energy. The name may have been taken from the video game, but the concept could well have been in the production bible before WFC. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:37, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::What a load of supposition and crap. I hereby dub it "crapposition". I can pretty much say that you are completely wrong. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::::[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/05/interview-matt-tieger-of-high-moon-studios-on-transformers/ Matt Tieger said] that High Moon started working on WfC when they shipped their "Bourne" game, which according to the accompanying notes was mid-2008, between the first movie and RotF. [http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/interviewtransformerswarforcybertron2.html This interview] talks up the G1 inspiration and then says the WfC storyline is "a completely original story that we made up at High Moon. We worked closely with Hasbro..." The consistent impression I've gotten from several different interviews is that High Moon started from G1 and then made pitches to Hasbro, which Hasbro would provide feedback on, and eventually there was a game. The only people who I've seen actually talk about the 400-page story-bible are the ''Prime'' creators. And if Orci was being literal when he said the bible was put together "after the movie’s came out", then game development would've indeed started earlier. At the very least, it sounds pretty likely that there was some simultaneous creation.
:::::In the end, the chicken-and-egg question is basically moot because either way, WfC is part of the new deal. It doesn't matter who said the words "Dark Energon" first; it's part of the structure that binds all of the pieces, so that's that. But for nitpicking's sake, Starfield's suppositions aren't off-base from the evidence we have. Siph, if you have additional info that clarifies or contradicts any of that, please share.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::::I, similarly, have found it quite plausible when thinking on the subject to believe that High Moon could have created the idea of Dark Energon, and that Hasbro then said to themselves "We can use THAT!" and put it in the bible. It's certainly outside the realm of possibility, unless you know something we don't, Siph. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 05:24, 5 March 2011 (EST)

:Because nothing whatsoever can change in the millions of years between the WFC era and the Prime cartoon era. And yeah, good luck sourcing that Aaron claim. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
I think that if they were in the game or in Exodus:The Offical History of the War for Cybertron, they should be labled (WFC),but if they poped into the Prime teley-show or comics, they should be labled (Prime).-[ [User:DinoDigger97|DinoDigger97]] 2:11 3 Apil 2011

== Captured-Prey ads ==

One of the things advertised there appears to be a fan-made Megatron min-figure. Seeing as how everybody was upset that the TFSource ad [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive47#TFsource_ad_buy|featured fansproject stuff]], surely, this isn't right either? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 05:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)
:Check the section back up this page titled [[#Project_Wonderful_ads|Project Wonderful ads]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 8 March 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen video game character articles - [X] Scout 1, [X] Scout 2 pages for the same design ==

With the upcoming DOTM games, I thought I should look at the ROTF game articles that were abandoned in 2009 and see if I could do anything for them. I believe it was Derik who made this decision, but I am now wondering if it is necessary to have say [[Aerialbot Scout 1]] and [[Aerialbot Scout 2]], [[Omnibot Scout 1]] and [[Omnibot Scout 2]] (and so on) considering "Scout 1" and "Scout 2" are just the two different colour schemes for these mass produced generic, nameless characters who only differ in terms of textures. Any completed articles on these will have different images, but exactly the same information. Isn't that redundant? Should we perhaps just stick both of each under Aeriabot Scout, Omnibot Scout, Stunticon Scout? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:14, 11 March 2011 (EST)
:According to the articles the two Aerialbot Scouts have different health, primary weapon and secondary weapon ratings. Is that enough for separation? I don't know, but it should be considered before making a decision. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 11 March 2011 (EST)
::I don't even know where those stats came from - I don't believe the person who filled them in originally ever explained. Were they from a website, article or guide book? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:42, 11 March 2011 (EST)

== Found some much needed images, but... ==

I found them on [http://transformersiv.mforos.com/1519135/8979801-transformers-g1-aventuras-y-nostalgias-que-nunca-moriran/ this site], and I don't speak the language (I think it's Spanish) to ask for their permission to use them. The images are covers of the [[Marvel Books]] titles [[Battle at Oil Valley]], [[Summertime Coloring Book]], and [[Super Activity Book]]. That's right we don't even have an article for that last one. They also have page scans of these and other Marvel Books titles. I don't feel right just taking them for our use here and was wondering if someone who spoke the lingo would contact them for us. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 12 March 2011 (EST)
:Nevermind, Google Chrome finally remembered that it had translational abilities. The poster is offering them for download to all and sundry, so he/she can hardly care if we borrow them. I'll probably still insert a link to the main site out of courtesy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:22, 12 March 2011 (EST)
::After looking at them, I realized that they were Steve Stonebreaker's scans. I have contacted him and received permission to use them here. I'll be adding more soon. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 16 March 2011 (EDT)

== Hey, I've got a new user talk page template request... ==
[[Image:Rebirth1 Hardhead and Blurr.jpg|right|thumb|300px|TOO MANY QUOTES]]
Can we have one that reminds folks that every new thing in Transformers that even vaguely reminds you of an old thing in Transformers IS NOT A REFERENCE AND THAT IS NOT HOW REFERENCES WORK AND STOP PUTTING THEM IN THE "TRANSFORMERS REFERENCES" SECTION. Ahem. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:18, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:You mean like [[Template:notareference|this]]? --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:22, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
::Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:30, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:::Brilliant. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:39, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::That's an oldie, but a goodie. Personally, I'm wondering if there's any template that can be set up for the people that just drown episode articles in quotes... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:42, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::I think we'd first need a consensus on how many quotes are appropriate. [[User:JW|JW]] 07:41, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::It's a conversation that needs to be had, I think. You have to take length of the story into account - there are more quotes in a two hour movie than in a twenty five minute episode. I'd put the early cutoff at around five for episodes, though. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 08:00, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I like the idera of a mximum of 5 per 30 minutes (or part thereof) for Episodes & movies, but what would be a good size for comics? I'd say around 3 per issue, but it breaks down with short issues and back up stories (i.e.e most of the Marvel UK exclusive stuff...) [[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 10:19, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'd set a "soft" limit higher for 30-minute episodes {{m-}} around 10 quotes {{m-}} and I'd allow more than that if the episode was particularly well-written or quotable. I don't think there's any need for a low, hard limit, as I don't think lots of quotes hurt the wiki until we get into "quoting the whole darn episode" territory. Heck, in fact, I might favor a policy of ''judging each quote for itself.'' I.e., if a quote is good/noteworthy/illustrative/funny/wadeva, it can be kept, even if there are two dozen other quotes already. Each must stand on its merits, but there would be no hard cap. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yeah, some episodes happen to have a lot of funny/significant/memorable lines, others don't. If we set a hard cap, we might be damning ourselves to a lot of pointless fights over which quotes deserve to be included under the arbitrary limit. I'm more in favor of making a list of criteria that we can point to when we weed lame quotes out.
:::::::::Oh, and I support making a template. ''Prime'' Soundwave is the best character I can think of to use, but Movie Bumblebee or G1 Wreck-Gar would also be appropriate. Or a shot of G1 Soundwave with a tape inside of him? Can't think of a good header, though...
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 11:49, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::I mainly suggested it as a starting point because if it comes down to putting each quote in place based on "which one we like more" the talk pages are going to be absolutely horrible. HOW CAN YOU LEAVE OUT MY FAVORITE QUOTE IT IS SO FUNNY AND RELEVANT. The "5 per 30 minutes" is just a suggestion - obviously an episode that's really funny or poignant can get more. Comics issues we could maybe use pagecount as a starting point. But basically, combine the two ideas. A list of criteria is a good idea, but we also need to avoid having like, thirty quotes for a given story, twelve of which are totally shitty. If we get over five-six quotes, it's time to think about trimming, just because seriously, 90% of TF fiction isn't that goddamned quotable - or there are better places for the quotes. "I don't rock and roll - I burn!" belongs on Inferno's page, not on the episode it appeared in. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:51, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::Fair enough. Just so long as the number is sufficiently "soft" that we don't forget that our goal is high quality, not an arbitrarily low quantity. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:17, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Exactly. Like I said, I think we can also judiciously use key ''character'' quotes on the ''characters''' pages. Some quotes are very episode/story specific, while others provide insight into a character's personality or mindset. I think that's a good way to winnow the chaff, you know? -hx at work not logged in gotta run
::::::::::::::The 5-6 quotes before we start trimming sounds good, especially if some more individual character based quotes can be moved to the character pages. The big problem I keep seeing with quotes is that too many people want to quote an entire scene. If it goes beyond 3 lines it's probably not what we mean by quote here. And even 3 lines is pushing it. These should really be a single line quip or a two line set up and pay off. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:22, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::5 to 6 sounds like a good starting point to me as well. Khajidha makes a good point about the definition of quote. That, along with Hooks' point about using key character quotes on that character's article, should be pointed out on [[Help:Example episode article]], once it exists. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
What about block quotes? The page for Transformers (2007) is full of them. I think there should be a limit on how long the quote can be.--[[User:Megatron Prime|Megatron Prime]] 16:48, 19 May 2011 (EDT)
== Maybe a silly question, can we? ==

Ok, exposing my ignorance here, but isthere a way to search the wiki by alt-mode? If I wanted to know every TF that turns into a Helicopter say? There's not a "helicopter" catagory, so howwould I find them all? Thanks for any help.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:59, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]] covers some characters. There's been a few vague proposals to create a new hierarchy of categories for altmodes, but it would be a lot of work, and it's generally shouted down. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:08, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:I think the current best option if you want to do something like this is TFU.info's Identify section. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 11:00, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

==Grimlock letter==
[[Image:Grimlock letter.jpg|thumb|right]]
I recently acquired this and thought it's exactly the sort of thing we should be covering. I had no idea it even existed until a friend sent it to me and on that thought, should we add letters from Soundwave, Ratchet(?), Dreadwind and Blaster to the Holy Grails? Was there a similar response from the US comic, and do Titan still send these letters out today from Starscream? Enquiring minds want to know. Incidentally, he said he got Tailgate as his free mini-toy. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:31, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
:Good find. A letter from Grimlock is pretty awesome. That should go somewhere. The Letters Page page? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:58, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
::I've added a link from there; I'll type it up verbatim if we think it's justified? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:09, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

== Voice actors by series ==

We have a bunch of categories for voice actors by language, but I was wondering if we should have categories for voice actors by series? Would categories like "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Victory voice actors" be useful? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:27, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

:That could be useful. It'd be better than looking up cast lists and opening up every character page, at least. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:30, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

::Sound like a nice idea to me. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 10:01, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

== "Just Stop" Notice? ==

Do we think there's a role for the following proposed user notice template, for users like Eagc7?

{{messagebox|image_name=War_War_Stop_It.jpg|image_width=225px|width=90%|header=Just Stop|message_text=Please stop editing this wiki. While you haven't done anything ban-worthy (yet), you are not a productive contributor. (The reasons ''why'' are above this notice on your talk page.) So, please, '''just stop.'''}}

Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 14:39, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:If one is created, I love this image for it! --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 15:35, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::It seems a bit rude, but the image would be ''perfect'' if this is made. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 15:45, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:::If this gets phrased differently, I'd support it. Right now, the text's too rude. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:52, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::::I think it is meant to be rude and probably should be rude. This tag is designed to be placed on the talk pages of people who have seemingly ignored the multiple instances of other tags. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:57, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

I'm a little iffy on this proposal. I admit that Eagc7 has a very poor grasp of the English language, but I'm a little uncomfortable with telling a person to leave a site just because of that. If you look over his fiction edits (the ones you can read) the posts he has made are accurate, just...occasionally unreadable. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:02, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
:I'm with SFH. Eagc7's English seems to be all over the place, but there are times when he gets it more or less correctly and only needs minor typo fixes. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:21, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Whether a person's edits are bad enough (and bad enough all the time enough) to ask them to never post again seems like something that shouldn't be in the hands of, well, everybody. Putting a template up that says you're a bad speller or that you're not using Preview enough... that's pretty straight forward. But I dunno if I'm comfortable with giving us all a tool to shame each other off the wiki entirely. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:49, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:In addition, if someone's edits are so bad (and so consistently bad) that they're more of a nuisance than they are helpful, then that person should probably just be gotten rid of, instead of getting the Middle Finger Personified In A Template. As Detour said, yeah, Eagc7's English could use some work, but he does enough good here that I don't think he's completely poison or anything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
I could maybe get behind the idea of a "Stop editing until you've read the complaints on your user page" template for the blissfully unaware people constantly making edits that are being undone as soon as they make them whilst ignoring comments on their user page telling them what they're doing wrong. But a template like THIS, and this sort of behavior in general, is how we end up with trolls that come by and vandalize the wiki on a daily basis for years and years. We could avoid that sort of future headache by just not being all-out douchebags to people even if they're stupid and/or their contributions are annoying. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:15, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:I suppose the only problem with making a "read your talk page" template is that they'll never read it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:24, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::: I like this idea, too. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::Got me there. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:36, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:This will not go well. If someone's a real pest here, ban them. If they're being a pest but not quite that bad yet, notify them on their talkpage with whichever templates are already needed, and then if they don't clean up, ban them. We shouldn't be creating--publicly--an underclass of users. If you're allowed to have an account here, you're allowed to post--otherwise we look scummy. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 19:17, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::This is basically every stereotype of this wiki and its userbase given textbox form. I love it. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 20:33, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

The consensus seems to be against it, and the arguments are all good ones. (Kind of a pity, since the image was so perfect, but...) I withdraw the suggestion. Thanks all for weighing in! [[User:JW|JW]] 20:25, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:It is a good template despite the rudeness, but it is potentially necessary for extreme conditions as a last resort. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Is it possible that we could reuse that image for another template? Perhaps a Final Warning template, letting users know that if they don't cut their shit out, they're gonna get banned. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:42, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
: Clearly it should be used for a "stop edit/revert warring" template. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:32, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

== Our Blogger blog? ==

To me it appears that our blog doesn't have much use. Our twitter sends out links to occasional pages and our facebook is an easy place to congregate and talk about TFs and not take up our talk pages, but the blog hasn't been used in over half a year.

I'm thinking using it to keep track of current trends and such. We could highlight pages that are being worked on, point out users who have been creating/adding a lot to pages (i.e. Geewunling creating minor GI Joe pages, Chris McFeely going crazy with the Japanese food tie-ins). This way an editor or lurker who happens to miss a few days can easily catch up rather than having to sift through the new pages and new files (and even then if a page has just had an entirely new writeup from a stub, it wouldn't show up there).

Any thoughts on this? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:21, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

:I think it would be a good way to draw attention to obscure and/or new stuff on the Wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:46, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
::I think so, too, but there are questions left unanswered if we want to go ahead with this. Who would be given control over the posts? Should it be extra mod duties or instead given to some other veteran editors? If so, how many? Would we want weekly updates or something with less frequency? Overall, who is in the current position to grant other users the power to add posts. I can see this as a useful too, but like many things on this wiki, we need to come up with some sort of procedure before it comes to fruition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:33, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

==TFwiki in the past week==
Could someone tell me why the TFwiki has been down/inaccessible for most of the time in the past week? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:04, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:I would wager "massive spikes in traffic, as DotM stuff hits," which has happened before.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::I thought traffic wouldn't be a likely cause since the third movie is still over a month away. Guess I was wrong. Thanks! [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:27, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:::There's at least some clamor now that the toys are out there.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:46, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::::Technical explanation or non-technical? Traffic HAS picked up a bit, the wiki hardware (such as it is) is slightly overtaxed, and we need to start doing some math on what we can separate into other servers, and how much it'll cost to do so.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:15, 13 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::Cowboy time. We've moved the application server and cache to another box, and synced over the contents. If anything's missing, we can try to sync it over from the old webserver, but it wouldn't be off by more than a few minutes, so here's hoping that we're back in business!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:43, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::No wonder the connection becomes smooth again recently. Nice Works!! --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:45, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Yeah, I'd noticed that the site was back to normal. Thanks for the hard work. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:52, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::Thanks for fixing our wiki! [[User:JW|JW]] 07:15, 18 May 2011 (EDT)

== Eagc7's movie comic section edits ==

Lately Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is good. However, Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is bad. I know he tries, but whenever he does this sort of thing, he just ends up creating work for somebody else to clean up, and frankly, it's easier to write stuff from scratch than it is to fix somebody's spelling & grammar, as well as trying to make the text fit the tone and style of the paragraphs surrounding it (which is important considering the Foundation comics take place during the other Movie prequel comics). I haven't read Foundation and Rising Storm, [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eagc7 so I can't fix all of this myself], but that seems like a fair bit of work to fix at a time when the wiki was experiencing random downtime and BotCon is rapidly approaching (meaning a good chunk of our regular editors will not be able to edit much, and in any case would be updating stuff about/from BotCon). Like I said, I know he's trying, and he's getting much better than he used to be, but... maybe he should leave fiction edits to the professionals. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:27, 18 May 2011 (EDT)
:Take it up with him via his Talk Page or the E-mail a User link. If there's really a stylistic problem, then we need a Style Guide for new users to reference.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:04, 19 May 2011 (EDT)

==Page views==
Where have they gone? I believe that they have disappeared from down the pages since the move a few weeks ago. Can they be put back? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:09, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
: I don't recall pageviews... What in specific are you talking about? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:12, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::I guess [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Popularpages popular pages]? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::Yeah those, how often a page has been visited. I kinda liked keeping tabs on relative popularity in pages (like how Mayumi and Shinichi ''never'' lost their 2:1 view ratio). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:24, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::The broken popular pages has apparently been a thing lately, as I noticed Abates was removing and re-adding the link to [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]] earlier this month. Maybe he knows more about it? --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 18:41, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::No more than anyone else. I noticed it was gone and removed it from the template, but then it came back when we did the move so I readded it. I guess it got removed again, possibly for performance reasons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:58, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::::If I had to make a poorly-educated guess, the pageview thing sounds exactly like one of the many things I had to remove from Shortpacked.com to keep it from lagging so so badly. Lots of neat little things like page tracking and stuff like that used to be on there, but they were more trouble, resources-wise, than they were worth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I didn't change anything, but I generally make it a point to keep away from the Mediawiki software config, for fear of breaking that which I don't understand. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 13:07, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
::::::::May have been Scout I guess? Looks like [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgDisableCounters $wgDisableCounters] got turned on at some point anyway. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:02, 9 June 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Wait, that WAS me. $wgDisableCounters is supposed to be off for squid-cached installations anyway, since it doesn't actually work when you add a cache. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 21:26, 12 June 2011 (EDT)

== Why is Melissa from Kiss Players on the same Page as Marissa Faireborn from G1? ==

I know they are some how connected ,but i see the two as different as G1 Starscream is to Animated Starscream ,maybe the same history ,but a little different.--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Michael Alex Kawa]] 10:43, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
:They are related in the same way that Orion Pax is related to G1 Optimus Prime. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 10:51, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
: Marissa = Marissa. Same continuity and everything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:02, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

== I don't know if this was what you are looking for when you asked for Kiss Players radio play translations ,but i hope this helps . ==

I found this on Youtube cause I LOVE Melissa and noticed in that Holy Grail thingy that you guys needed Kiss Players radio play translations .I hope this helps ,even if it doesn't it is still pretty cool and CUTE .I did not make it so that is noted .Here is the link so you guys can go and look to see if it what is needed ,it is the only one i can find ,if it helps i will try to find more .[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZvUg2c649Y]
--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 18:25, 2 June 2011 (EDT)

I also found this site ,it gives a brief description of the radio play ,again i hope this helps .[http://www.toyvey.com/kisskiss/radioplay/index.html]--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 14:32, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
:I haven't looked at the material myself yet (I'm afraid it'll make me have to clean myself until I bleed to get the stain out) but if it's legit, then thank you very, VERY much. This stuff needs to be cataloged to serve as a warning to future generations. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 07:25, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

== The multiverse ==

So, at BotCon, Aaron Archer declared the Aligned continuity separate from the old, more meta multiverse. How does everyone want to approach this? Separate the aligned information about Primus, Unicron and the members of the 13, or keep it together for easy access and lack of confusion just as one article covers the various versions of the Matrix, or Energon, or the AllSpark? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 05:06, 6 June 2011 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-06-09T17:07:24Z

McFly: /* Page views */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


==Didn't we have a Transformers Appearances/References in Other Media page?==
I could have sworn we did, mentioning stuff like Family guy etc. If we don't have such a page, would it be allowed to be created? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 11:53, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:Unless it's officially sanctioned by Hasbro, no, we do not mention Transformer appearances in other media. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:54, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:: If it ever existed, it would have been destroyed with fire in about 30 seconds. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:46, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::: Of course, if we did have such a page, we could use it as a lighting rod, keep anons from adding something to Soundwave's page every time Seth Green says the word "transformers." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:28, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Of course, NO. Discussion over. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Discussion not quite over. If the unofficial nature of the topic is the reason why it is not allowed, then there are several articles that already exist that are pushing boundaries on the wiki. I would have thought that the biggest problem would be it's size.[[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 09:26, 20 December 2010 (EST)
:::::Yeah, that'd be the other big reason. There's so many such references it would be impossible to keep track of them all. It would also involve making sure what's added there is actually a TF reference. And given all the Toms, Dicks and Harrys that'll come out of the woodwork to add such stuff, that's going to be more trouble than not having a page. Best not to get a larger headache for the sake of reducing a smaller one. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:44, 20 December 2010 (EST)

=="Knockoff warning" for toy sections?==
Just something that occurred to me... as I skimmed this page http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 and looked at alllllll the "could be mistaken for real and paid stupid money for" knockoffs... is there any objection to some form of link to this in the relevant toy sections? Sadly, the page lacks a "jump to" feature of any kind, but alerting people to the potential danger of dropping several hundred on what they think is a genuine Defensor box set... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:50, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:I think it skirts the line with our "we don't really discuss knockoffs" policy, but on the other hand, yeah, it's a useful bit of information, almost to the point where we could stand to have a special page about ''these specific knockoffs''. I am not opposed to adding a link to that site, no, as long as it's got a massive and specific caveat attached to it (maybe even with a special template box thing ("A Prime Problem"-themed perhaps?)). Hell, maybe the highendtfs people would be willing to throw up navigation in exchange for the inevitable deluge of hits - anyone got contact info for the owner? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 09:11, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::It's worth noting that there are some very well-done Henkei seekers knockoffs now, too. The really expensive ones even, like Thundercracker. Their sections could use warnings as well. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:56, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::Are they in knockoff PACKAGING that is meant to look like the real thing? That's the really tricky part. G1 MIB shit is much, much more expensive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:27, 19 December 2010 (EST)
::::Yes, they are: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/buyer-beware-update-on-ko-henkei-seekers/20380/ -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:03, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::I am not sure I want to attach more template boxes to pages as is. Especially over something like knockoffs. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:55, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::I'd ''thought'' about a template, but... ehn. I think a simple link under the TFU.info (or whatever), perhaps with a bolded "'''Knockoff alert'''" text. Like...

::::*''[http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 '''Knockoff alert''': More information on packaged imitations of this toy at HighendTFs.com]''

:::Thoughts? This would ONLY cover stuff that is in packaging meant to deceive you by looking as real as they can get it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:05, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::::I could agree with that. This is a step beyond your standard knock off crap, some notice might be appropriate.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:44, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::::I think it is a good idea to have it, since it is useful. This is different from putting info of some KO or unlicensed products on the page. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:49, 19 December 2010 (EST)

== Extension:Oversight ==

Quite a few times I've seen admins delete and undelete pages to clean out bad revisions. Why they do this I have no idea, since we have [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Oversight the Oversight extension] installed.

Perhaps we should look into granting some people "oversighter" access? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 05:09, 25 December 2010 (EST)
:I've just noticed that deleting and then restoring pages in the manner mentioned above has the side effect of resetting a page's page views stats, so that's another point in favour of the Oversight extension. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:40, 11 January 2011 (EST)

== Wikipedia, revisited ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#The_.22Campaign_of_Deletion.22_against_the_Transformers_Wiki_Project_by_NotARealWord_and_TFWiki.net]

Just in case anyone's interested. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 10:54, 5 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log back in)
:NEWSFLASH: Nobody cares. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:21, 5 January 2011 (EST)

== Captcha to prevent spambots? ==

Is there any way we could implement captcha to account creation to prevent the spambot problem we're having now? I've seen other wikis use that measure. Maybe also disable new page creation by anons? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:56, 6 January 2011 (EST)
:We already have CAPTCHA implemented on the account creation service. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 13:09, 6 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log in)
::Never mind, then! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:30, 6 January 2011 (EST)

== Real world events by day Category ==

These of course comprise every date of the year. However, I notice recently people have been adding fictional events to these dates. That basically invalidates the Category, since it's no longer comprised of only real-world events. The fictional events should be moved out into another section, or the category name should be changed to "Events by day". Thoughts? --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:01, 9 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree with changing to "Events by day". I would also support having separate fictional and real world sections on the pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:38, 9 January 2011 (EST)

== Project Wonderful ads ==

Um, guys, I found there [http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/53018-1293943633.gif Non-official products] in the ads of CapturedPrey. I know the small ads are showing up randomly (and may not be controllable since we can't regulate them), but I think it is still need to be reported here. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 01:04, 16 January 2011 (EST)
: I don't mind them in the non-permanent ads. TFSource used them all the time in their ads before we made them permanent sponsors. It was only when we made them a permanent sponsor did we ask to make them free of third-party product. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:57, 16 January 2011 (EST)

== Games <strike>fiction</strike> ==

Okay, now that [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] has flooded the character pages with stubs for 30 years worth of crappy Transformers games, can we reconsider how the Games sections are treated? I really don't think in-universe fiction descriptions are the way to handle it. [[War for Cybertron]] may've had a plot, but the majority of TF games are more in the vein of "hit things until they stop coming". A fiction section makes even less sense for games where the character selection is variable. ''"[[Hardhead (G1)#Transformers:_The_Headmasters|Hardhead]] may (or may not) have been present at this battle. Or this one. Or this..."'' Ditto for generic drone soldiers. Isn't there a way to address the games without trying to craft a sensical fiction for them? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:46, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree. The games should appear as merchandise on all relevant characters pages, but there is no need for a fiction write up for most games on those same pages. A generic write up on the game page should suffice. Something like "An Autobot warrior participated in a battle...", with a character box listing all potential "Autobot warriors" (aka playable characters). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Moving games to merchandise sounds awful. It would result in amazing amounts of lost information. I have no idea what doing that would solve. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:44, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::I think it depends on the game - for example in the ROTF console game, while you CAN play as multiple characters, the game provides a suggested one for you. IMO, that's who "actually" did the stuff depicted in the game (and the opposing side's campaign generally suggests it as well). When you can just pick from a half-dozen dudes and it doesn't matter, then maybe a brief summary of the game's plot and a note. "Jerkwagon was one of many Autobots involved in blah blah plot synopsis bluh. NOTE: Such-and-such game allowed players to choose multiple protagonists, including Jerkwagon." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 13:19, 25 January 2011 (EST)
I agree that Games should be their own section -- there's certainly enough of them, and they should be treated differently than keychains and what-not. But I think an out-of-universe description of the games would be better in most cases. Instead of having to write vague text like ''"As Ultra Magnus searched for the truth behind Optimus Prime's death, he battled Trypticon in a game of death and suffering."'', which is about all the plot I could wrangle out of [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy|Convoy no Nazo]] and tells you virtually nothing, we could write something more informative, like ''"Trypticon is the boss of Stage 10."'', and describe what actually happens in the game instead of trying to make it sound like believable fiction. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:29, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::My personal view on the matter is, from a character's page, I should be able to find EVERY place that character has appeared. And when we do list guys having an appearance when they're most likely an animation error in the far-background of an episode, I don't think there's any excuse to NOT list an appearance of a character wherever he might appear, including board and video games. Is that a lot of work? Yeah. But beneath all the jokes that make this place so great, this is still an encyclopedia, and purposely leaving out information out of an encyclopedia is wrong. Though I think Hooper X has the right idea... I doesn't have to be the most super-extensive write up. Heck, I was even going to suggest just having a link saying "See Return of Convoy article" or something like that. Also: I apologize if I had started getting very sloppy last night, but looking back, it was like 5 in the morning by the time I finished up. Yikes. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:10, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::I totally agree that the games should be dealt with on the character pages. I'm just looking for an option other than a completely in-fiction description. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 15:14, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::: The first idea that comes to mind is having a subsection called "Gameplay" or something like that for each game write-up, something that would be similar to a note? Though really, my main solution for stuff like that has been, up to this point, to just stick a couple of notes in the game write-up, like on [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s page. I'll keep on trying to think up other solutions though... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:26, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::Storylinks already serve as that, so what's the point of another link? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:47, 25 January 2011 (EST)

== Fiction order guide? ==

I've been over the Style guides a few times trying to find if a page like this already exists, but it doesn't look like it. I'll be the first to admit that when adding in new fiction/game subsections to a character's article, I sometimes confuse and probably put them out of order. So I've been wondering if a page that lists every fictional work and game in the proper order of each other would be a good idea? On one hand, it seems like an ABSURD amount of work for a style guide, one that would have to be CONSTANTLY updated as new things come out. On the other hand, it would be very handy to have a list to reference for character pages. Especially because it can get VERY frustrating trying to hunt down which book/cartoon/whatever came first in the same year. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about, here's an example I quickly put together, using the [[Cheetor (BW)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]] pages as reference.

When listing a character's media appearances, use this sorting order:
*Fiction
**Generation 1 Marvel Comics continuity
**Generation 1 S.T.A.R.S. pack-in flyers
**Generation 1 cartoon continuity
**Generation 1 Kid Stuff Talking Story Books
**Generation 1 Big Looker Story Books
**Generation 1 Ladybird Books continuity
**''Transformers in 3-D''
**''Transformers PD Type'' comic
**''Comic Bom Bom G-2'' comic
**Beast Wars First wave toy bios
**Beast Wars Cartoon continuity
***Dawn of Future's Past
***''Beast Wars'' cartoon
***Fast Action Battlers toyline
***3H ''Tales from the Beast Wars'' comics
***IDW ''Beast Wars'' comics
***''Transformers Legends'' anthology
***''Beast Machines'' cartoon
***''Beast Machines'' toy bio
***''Universe'' comic
***''Beast Wars Metals'' comic
***Beast Wars ''Henkei! Henkei!'' pack-in comic
**Generation 1 Dreamwave comics continuity
**''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''
**''Transformers/G.I. Joe''
**Generation 1 IDW comics continuity
**''Hearts of Steel''
**''Music Label''
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' (pack-in comic)
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' Bun Bun manga
**Alternity
**''Robot Heroes'' comic
**''Universe'' cartoon
**Wings of Honor

Is this a good idea? Would anyone actually like to see this kind of thing, or would I just be putting a whole bunch of work into something we don't need? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:28, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:We do need standardization of section names. The section order, however, depends on order in which the character appeared in those continuities in the real world. Then the subsections are ordered by the fictional chronology. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:35, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::No wonder I get confused by this fiction order thing. @_@ I guess I might just be one of those people that will never get the hang of some of these things. And yeah, the section names was definitely something else I wanted to tackle, since I've seen at times no less than four different ways to refer to a certain media. I sometimes have to check the storylinks at the end to be sure it's all part of the same story! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:45, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Note that, within a continuity, flashbacks and time travel can mean that experiential fictional chronology for one character requires a different order of headings than for another. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:16, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::In regards to standardization, I have an idea. What if we create a list of headers (kept on this page perhaps) used on Optimus Prime (G1)'s page (probably has the greatest number of different headers), use that as our initial standards list, then update it as we find other headers or decide to change the existing standards? Once we think we've covered the majority of possibilities, we could move it to a help page and make it official policy. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:49, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::::I put together [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a sandbox along these lines]] a couple of years ago. It hasn't been updated in quite a while, and I'm not sure it was ever actually complete, and it was the subject of [[User_talk:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a bit of debate]]... but there it is, for what it's worth. (Also, I support standardization of headers, but I've run into [[Talk:Ricochet_(Headmasters)#Header|some]] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive22#Section_naming_conventions|opposition]] over the nitty-gritty before, so best of luck.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 06:11, 8 February 2011 (EST)

== Foreign name reorganization ==

Is there any chance we could consider moving the foreign names somewhere else in the article other than at the top? We've already established a new standard for episodes, but characters could stand to have their names moved to their own dedicated section, likely under "Notes". There, we could add things like kana and Cyrillic forms of names not different from the English version. Opinions? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 4 February 2011 (EST)
:I'm in favor of it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:33, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::All things considered, since this is (mostly) an english-centric wiki when it comes to stuff, the foreign names do come off as being interesting trivia more than anything else. I'm in favour of this too. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:37, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I'm fine with where they are now, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:39, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I can see the logic in them being moved down to notes. You've got an in-universe profile, then a bunch of out-of-universe names, then the in-universe fiction section. The only argument I have against it is that I'm used to seeing the foreign names at the top. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:05, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::If it can be moved downward (to the first entry of the notes section or a new section after the notes section) instead of being on the top, MOVE it. Originally, I'm fine withe where they are {{m-}} but that would be a character with fewer foreign names. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 19:55, 4 February 2011 (EST)
Any further opinions on this? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:36, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:What about cases where some of the extra names at the top are English, e.g. Omni Productions names, or preliminary or nicknames? Would they remain at the top or become notes too? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:29, 21 February 2011 (EST)
::The Malay dub still technically counts as foreign in my mind. Nicknames should be integrated in the introduction (or notes section), and preliminary names should have been in notes in the first place, since they aren't the characters' "real names" in any sense. Further elaboration of the preliminary names better suits the notes section, anyway. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:43, 21 February 2011 (EST)
Japanese names are often for a character in a slightly different continuity. Like "Fire Convoy" is a Car Robots character and "Optimus Prime" is an RID character, but they share the same page. Or "Flame Convoy" is a Galaxy Force character but "Scourge" is a Cybertron character. In that case they should have the Japanese name up top. The names that are just different language versions of the English character can go on bottom. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:18, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:... no. ''Cybertron'' and ''Galaxy Force'' are NOT different stories (Takara officially put GF back in the same timeline as the prior two series), and the ''RID/CR'' split is a unique case. In neither case should the names go up top. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:44, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::They are slightly different continuities. Galaxy Force doesn't have the [[Omega Frequency]] for example. And the Grand Black Hole is different. And the [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity]] is different. [[Blaster (G1)|Broadcast]] never became Twincast in English. I think Japanese names are a special case and deserve to be on top since Japanese toyline & fiction continuity is always slightly separate. But I can hit the "end" key on the keyboard easy enough. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::Every single foreign language version of something is technically a slightly different continuity, strictly due to the nature of translation. This is not a arena in which Galaxy Force is unique. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== Commercial Appearances section ==

Alright, so I plan later on to start going through characters' pages and add in a "Commercial Appearances" section where it applies (sorry, I can't this weekend... homework to do!). Several characters already have this section and a lot of these commercials have nice short animations or other interesting characterizations and tidbits that I think they bear to be included in the characters' pages. Although, much like the Games sections, I'll only be able to marginally help by adding in the section itself to let people know that there's work to be done on a character's page... MY computer is so incredibly shitty that I can't even play videos off youtube. D:

But anyways, the reason I'm bringing this up here is because before I get started, I'd like to discuss what kind of format we want for this section, so it can be done right the first time around. Obviously, where it applies, stuff like indicating who the voice actor for the character makes sense, but should the write-up be in-universe or not? Since commercials fluctuate between using a short animation telling a mini-story and just being a straight-up commercial saying "buy this toy!" should a combination of both in-universe and out-of-universe description be used? And should we count the parts where the kids brandish their action figures and talk for the character as dialog spoken by the character? That's all the questions on the subject I can really think of for now... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:12, 6 February 2011 (EST)
:I would write up the animation segments in-universe so long as they're unique to the commercial (i.e. not just recycled footage from one of the cartoons). Anything else that's notable enough could qualify for an out of universe note. But I wouldn't bother with recycled animation or the kids talking for the figures. That doesn't qualify as fiction to me.
:In regards to your inability to view the commercials, would it help if you could download them in some fashion and then watch them offline? Maybe burn the videos to a DVD disc? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:43, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, any clips taken from pre-existing mediums would be redundant from those scenes being already covered in other sections on that character's page. Personally though, I'm still on the fence about the kids talking for the figures... I find it comparable to botcon script readings in a way... People just talking out loud for a character without any accompanying animation... I'm prone to be swayed either way. As for me viewing the commercials themselves, my spring break is a week from now. I might have access to a better computer then, but otherwise I'll just be putting in information already available on the wiki to the appropriate pages throughout the week, I guess. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 17:53, 6 February 2011 (EST)

==How to resolve monster debates?==
[[User:-Blackout-]]'s recent meltdown over being prevented from editing [[Goldbug (IDW)]] has made me think again about how policy/content discussions tend to go on this wiki. It's a big part of why I haven't been around since last summer: I found myself perpetuating these miles-long debates that few cared to read, everyone was irritated by, and most importantly ''were impossible to resolve.''

That Goldbug article is a sterling example. Right now, people are talking about it as if the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1|giant]] [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2|debate]] had resolved in favor of the current setup, so changing the article at this point is taboo because it "was dealt with already." But that's not how it went at all. Blackout's dickishly unilateral edit-war was definitely the Wrong Way to reopen this, but it's also wrong to pretend that we had achieved consensus or closure on the issue.

At [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2#Breaking down the problem|the end of the debate]], I had restated the case for [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Goldbug (G1)|my "Goldbug (G1)" sandbox]], which is definitely different from the current setup, and 6 other people declared support for it while 2 objected at length. But the objectors were also against the current setup: Jeysie wanted the toy gone, and Derik wanted... something inscrutable and Deriky. Combining those numbers with the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1#Vote Tally|premature vote]] that had been taken earlier (and adjusting for the voters who changed their minds by the end), I count:

Sandbox: 8 
Sandbox with modifications: 3 
Current page: 7 
Current page without the toy: 2

That's not consensus. That's deadlock. In fact, there were fewer votes to keep the page as-is than there were to change it in some fashion. The current setup didn't win out in terms of votes, logic, precedent, or any other measure: It won out because it was what happened to be there when the debate died of exhaustion.

So we're stuck with an awkward page that most people want to be different, encased in concrete forevermore. I don't see any way out of this situation, and I've watched the same principle play out with other debates too many times. At the very least, I wonder if it would be helpful to have a Template:Deadlock that we could slap on inconclusive debates (with a picture of [[Drift (G1)|Deadlock]], natch) so people know the true state of things.

Taking that idea further, maybe it could come with a period of enforced moratorium – say, two weeks – followed by a revote and/or a formalized "final statements" opportunity? The most extreme option I can think of is to create a "council of elders" that has the community-bestowed power to resolve intractable debates and declare relevant policy principles. Basically, a Supreme Court. I do worry that creating an authoritative heirarchy might produce even more problems, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:20, 9 February 2011 (EST)
: This whole argument goes to the heart of what we mean when we say two characters are "the same". The Bumblebee toy was produced and fiction was made to promote that toy, thus all of those fictions (which differ from each other) are about "the same" character. The Goldbug toy was produced with a tech spec that stated that it was "the same" character as Bumblebee. Fiction was produced to promote that toy, thus all those varying depictions of Goldbug are "the same" character as Bumblebee. The same argument applies to the differing backstories of Optimus Prime; Orion Pax and Optronix are "the same" character because they both are earlier forms of the character that was used to promote the sale of the Optimus Prime toy. The problem comes in with later stories that are not produced to promote those original toys. How do we decide what is the same? When is a character "the same character under different circumstances/in a different universe" and when is it simply an homage character? I really can't see how others see the IDW Goldbug as "the same" character as the original toy and not (as I see him) as a simple homage character. Under their viewpoint the toy belongs, under mine it doesn't. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:15, 10 February 2011 (EST)

: I NOMINATE MYSELF AS FINAL ARBITER AND SUPREME OVERLORD. all decisions will be made based on what amuses me the most. (seriously, we probably ought to have some kind of "no consensus" tag for articles like that.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:58, 10 February 2011 (EST)

Mmm...probably best not to restart the Goldbug debate itself here, Khajidha -- that would quickly distract from what Jackpot's actually asking here, which is how debates should be resolved ''in general''.

Some of the basic rules we already follow should remain. No "edit-warring"...leave it up to the Talk Pages to hash out the problem. I don't think a mere two weeks is enough to give people time to change their minds, though, especially in this crowd. One thing I notice is that despite dozens of regular contributors and hundreds overall, most Talk Page or Community Portal votes I've seen have less than 20 votes at the end. Many of these debates fly right under the radar. I'm relatively active here, but the Goldbug (IDW) chaos completely passed me by.

What about, when a Talk Page debate has clearly reached an impasse between <strike>obstinant</strike> strong-willed parties, a Vote is taken on the ''Main Page''? Some sort of easy-to-see box temporarily added to the Main Page, "above the fold" so that its visible to all visitors when they enter? It would be more noticeable than if the vote is hidden away on a single Talk Page people may or may not see. Something like ''"A [[Deadlock]] has arisen! Choose from the following choices: Should [[Goldbug (IDW)]] have the G1 toy on his page? Yes or No? (See the Goldbug (IDW) Talk Page for the full debate.)"''

I realize many debates won't be as simple as Yes or No, but if the debating parties agree in advance how to phrase the Voting Box, it could be a useful tool. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 13:07, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:Yeah, wasn't really trying to restart that debate. Was bringing up questions about general character debates, as they seem to occur quite often. But other debates also bog down, so I recognize that my questions don't apply to those debates.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:35, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:I like the idea of keeping a debate in the regulars' faces until a decision has been reached by enough people (at least 20? 25?). Many debates I keep away from because I think they'll disappear anyway and my vote doesn't really matter <s>and I also can't deal all that well with the aggressive nature of most debates, making it actively a lose-only situation if I'd enter</s>. I'm not sure if others feel that way, but I imagine this would be a boost for all to participate. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::I absolutely disagree with the premise that people who don't care enough to read the argument should have it shoved in their face until they vote. AT MOST, we should mention it somewhere prominent, like the community portal. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:53, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:::I agree that essentially putting a ballot on the front page is asking for trouble. You might get the dozens of votes you're looking for, but they'll all be uninformed gut reactions. One of the reasons these debates happen is that issues can be much more complicated and subtle than they seem at first glance. Plus one would hope that the reasoning behind the winning option would help develop our policies, but if the decisions are made by the majority of an explicitly uninformed mob, it's hard to glean any substantial precedent out of that.
:::But I think an approach like that ''could'' be combined with my "final statements" suggestion. Thinking out loud here: After a cooling-off period has been declared and a set amount of time has passed, anyone who wants to present a case can write up a defense of his or her preferred option. Those are all submitted to a neutral volunteer, who then posts them simultaneously on the relevant Talk page, and those become the voting choices. No replies are allowed, only votes. We put a notice up at least on the Community Portal, possibly on the Main Page, for another set time period, then close voting and go with the majority.
:::How does that sound? Like I said, thinking out loud, so suggestions are more than welcome.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:18, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::::Sounds pretty good to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:19, 11 February 2011 (EST)

==How featured articles are chosen==
On a side note, would a box like that also be useful to start a voting system for featured pages? Because I'm fine with Drift and Wreck-Gar and all others before, but I am absolutely clueless as to who chose them to become featured for what reasons. I'd like to see a better system for that. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: If there was a recently-completed article that's of respectable length, I choose it. The pool for featured articles is pretty damn small. Not many articles are finished, and the ones that are finished have usually already been Featured Articles already. Finished articles don't happen very frequently, so sometimes we find one that's close to completion near the end of a month and then push to finish it before the month is over. Sometimes we think a subject or a character is timely (like around BotCon, or before an episode or movie premiere) and push for that. If you want a heads up, Chris McFeely's [[Matrix of Leadership]] article is so totally March's. (I think Chris has the record for number of articles he's completed which have become featured.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:31, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: Long story short, if you want an article to be featured, finish it. That means photos for every toy and known merchandise, and storylinks (with summaries) to every piece of fiction they've appeared in. Behind the scenes information helps. The longer and more involved the article, the more appealing it is. Meaning, finishing an article for a Mini-Con who showed up in the background somewhere, or finishing an article for someone who doesn't have any illutrated appearances... these are probably not going to be featured. But people like Perceptor (G1) or Side Burn (RID) or High Wire (Armada) have enough about them to say to make an interesting featured article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:36, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: "Long story short," my ass. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:37, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:: Have we done any episodes as Featured yet? I know the over-arching "Target 2006" article was chosen once. You'd think we could get, say [[Code of Hero]] up to that standard pretty quickly. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 07:42, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::I really think we need to get [[BotCon]] up to that standard. We're pretty close! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]] is a Featured article about an episode. [[User:Excise|Excise]] 00:00, 16 February 2011 (EST)

== Letterers ==
On images of comic pages, do we credit the ''letterers'' by placing the image in an "Image by Letterer Name" category? We've got a few contradictory examples around. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:32, 12 February 2011 (EST)
:Okay, three options: For images currently in categories like "Images by Mike Scott" (where Mike Scott is a letterer), we can:
:# Create the category and treat letterers just like artists, inkers, and colorists.
:# Instead place them in a "Images ''lettered'' by Mike Scott" category.
:# Remove the category, and not attempt to categorize images by letterer.
:I'm probably going to go with option 3 barring dissent. [[User:JW|JW]] 17:25, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I added galleries to a few of the pages for letterers (eg [[Bill Oakley]], [[Peri Godbold]]) on the basis that lettering can make or [[:Image:Cryotekmrrghmraghmrugghagh.jpg|break]] a comic. As well as adding the text, the letterer has to pick where the balloons will go and place, them, so they do have a large degree of control over how the comic turns out. That said, I don't know that we need to categorise images by letterer. The original intention was [[:Category talk:Images by artist|not to]], but it looks like we ended up doing it anyway, and at least one template is set up to put images into category by letterer. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I'd vote for option 3 as well.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:02, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I'm leaning towards option 3 myself. My reasoning is that even though letterers can have a large effect on a comic, I don't see too many people wanting to find every image lettered by a given letterer. The galleries, on the other hand, are useful for demonstrating the quality of an individual's work. So those should be used. While the obsessive in me thinks we should categorize images by every applicable characteristic, it's not realistic. I don't think it benefits us enough to go through all that work for categories that only a few people might find useful. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:09, 17 February 2011 (EST)
'Kay, I'm going to go with option 3. This may involve editing a template or two. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:35, 17 February 2011 (EST)

== Categories by toy size class? ==
Do we ''want'' the following categories?
 Leader class toy images
 Deluxe class toy images
 Voyager class toy images
 Scout class toy images
 They currently have a very few things in them (and could obviously have many more), but the cat' pages themselves have not been created. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:43, 12 February 2011 (EST)

:No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:13, 12 February 2011 (EST)

::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:06, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:::As long as it's only the images and not the articles, I couldn't care less. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:09, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:There's also a "Legends class toy images" category which has 90 images in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:21, 15 February 2011 (EST)

::Legends are kind of an exception because they're a different scale/play pattern, as evidenced by the upcoming Cyberverse stuff. Scouts-on-up are ''generally'' meant to intermingle, Legends aren't. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:41, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I could go either way on this one. It's a lot of work to fill these categories out, but the ability to find all the Deluxe figures easily intrigues me. If we did institute this I would also think that this would be the proper place to put the "exclusive figure" categories and such. Basically, any category that pertains to a particular toy and not to the character could be tagged to the image of that toy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 23:08, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:I've been doing them because I saw other people do them. I don't mind either way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:51, 16 February 2011 (EST)
So, counting me as "no", that's three "no"s, an "I don't care", an "I don't mind either way", and an "either way/intrigues me". I think we're leaning toward "no". Final comments? [[User:JW|JW]] 07:08, 16 February 2011 (EST)

::I guess it's "no" or at least "not the time"? (Though I'm "I'm not sure".) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 11:21, 16 February 2011 (EST)
:::I've gone with "no", and added a note to that effect to [[Transformers_Wiki:Images]]. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:27, 16 February 2011 (EST)

Ha ha, none of the no's have actually said why they've said no. Such super debating skills that. [[Special:Contributions/213.105.226.130|213.105.226.130]] 17:44, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Undo Redone? ==

I just undid an edit, but instead of getting the automatic "Reverting edit ##### by User1 to last version by User2" summary, that box was blank. In addition, above the edit window were the captions "Current revision" and "Your text", side by side, as if there's meant to be one editable text window under each. Instead, there was only one such text window beneath them, stretching across under both captions. The page is protected so only registered users can edit it, so that MIGHT have something to do with the problem, though I doubt it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:28, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:It doesn't automatically create an edit summary if you're doing an undo on multiple revisions, so that might be it. Not sure about the other part - it's always shown me a diff at the top of the screen when I've done an undo. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:54, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::Okay, blank edit summary's explained, because it was indeed a group of 3-4 edits being undone all at once. Still inexplicable is the fact that I just checked the page history; it didn't even accept my Undo! LoneGamer78 ended up doing it instead. I've noticed some sluggish response from the site over the past fifteen minutes or so, perhaps whatever caused that was a factor? It may never be known...--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:02, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::Is it possible she just beat you to it by a few moments and thus there was an edit conflict? I've had that happen sometimes, and so there's no diff shown because now the page already matches what you were going to change it to. (Uh, does that make sense?) --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 22:17, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::::Can't rule it out entirely, but edit conflicts usually announce themselves as such, and they DO have two distinct editable text windows: one showing the text as it stands after someone edited while you were typing, the other as it would have been if you'd edited without interference.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:24, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::::A few times I've "undone" an edit, but someone else beat me to it. It doesn't seem to show an edit conflict if that happens, probably because the change is identical to the previous one. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:06, 19 February 2011 (EST)

== Banner ad question. ==
The small side box ad (the one that's still a free-floater) currently has an ad for some webcomic. Which is fine, but one of the panels has GIANT ERECT LADY NIPPLES ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm not offended by it, but it's, uh, something. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 06:39, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:Ah, yeah. That'd be because it's an NSFW comic called DarkBrain which is read aloud by "adult film star Tabitha Stevens." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:50, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:: If people don't like it, I can yank it. I didn't think its THO was that objectionable, apparently, when I okayed it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:27, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== help ==

I cant find the latest talk please help([[User:Manmcmanman|Manmcmanman]] 15:44, 21 February 2011 (EST))
:What do you mean by the latest talk? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 15:54, 21 February 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen Online Games ==

So, I figured I might as well finish up the online game write-ups for Revenge of the Fallen online games, in case they go offline once Dark of the Moon comes out. But, hot damn, do I ever suck. Which means I'm not very likely to get pics of later levels in some of these games. I'll be trying to add in whatever I can to these sections, but some help would be much appreciated! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:I can have a go at getting some screencaps tonight if no one else does. Which games in particular? I noticed some of them are already gone a couple of weeks ago, as Hasbro has redirected most of the monkeybar site they were on to the Hub site, which doesn't have them. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::Well, personally I'm having difficulty getting pics of every character's sprite from Battle for the Matrix. I'm currently working on The RPMs Devastator game. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 18:41, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::I got caps of everyone except the Fallen, haven't uploaded them yet though. I couldn't get the [[flying drone]]s to transform either. They just seem to fly around wildly in robot mode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::Dang! The Fallen is the only one I can't get to either! And yeah, the flying drones are near-impossible to get a screencap of. I got a couple mid-transformation, but that's it. If any of your pics are better than mine, feel free to replace them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:55, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::::I went and got pics from Flight of the Bumblebee and Allspark Highway. Unfortunately I can't get pics of Ratchet from the later since robovision isn't up anymore! Darn! I'll upload them later. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:45, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I grabbed a screenshot of The Fallen finally. Man, that game is a memory hog. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:38, 25 February 2011 (EST)

== Countdown? ==

Sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a while back ago, there was a countdown to ROTF on the Main Page. Perhaps a countdown to DOTM would now be appropriate as it's so close?

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to program/insert/design/<insert verb here> a countdown on a wiki page (it's for another wiki). What template or whatever does that use? I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me.

Again, terribly sorry if this is the wrong place to say this...
 - [[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:02 PM, 22 February 2011 A.D.
:Dark of the Moon countdown based on Derik's ROTF code: {{#expr: ({{ #time: U |July 1, 2011}} - {{ #time: U }})/86400 round 0}} days until [[Dark of the Moon (film)|TF: Dark of the Moon]]! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (EST)

==When to omit "Transformers" from an article title==
So I got a hankering to remove the "Transformers" from [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and all of their related pages, since unlike [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]], there's just no good reason to break policy for them. There are [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|other video games that we drop the "TF" from]], and if "Prime" is too common a term, then what about "[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]" or "[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]"?

But then I decided to check out [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?ns0=1&search=Transformers&searchx=Search&limit=500 which pages use "Transformers" in their titles,] and holyyyyyyyy crap. I copy-pasted here all the ones I found that I thought could lose the "Transformers" without negating their meaning, destroying a phrase, or otherwise severely damaging the title. (I added an "(etc.)" to each one that represents a series of identically-worded pages):

[[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Animated (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)]] 
[[1-2-3 Transformers]] 
[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Legends]] 
[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: The Headmasters (video game)]] 
[[The Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Energon Within]] 
[[The Transformers Collection]] 
[[Transformers Quest]] 
[[Transformers Key Recovery: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Power Up: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed]] 
[[Transformers PD Type]] 
[[Transformers: The Animated Movie]] 
[[Transformers Generations]] 
[[Transformers: Rise of the Chevy Autobots]] 
[[Transformers Annual 1990]] (etc.) 
[[The Transformers Sticker Book (1986)]] 
[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)]] 
[[Transformers: The Junior Novel]] 
[[Look and Find Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Coloring and Activity Book and Crayons]] 
[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers: Learn to Count Activity Tablet]] 
[[Transformers The Reusable Sticker Book]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Storybook]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Guide]] 
[[Transformers Prime Time]] 
[[Transformers Mix & Match]] 
[[Transformers Comic issue 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers The Game (console)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Autobots/Decepticons]] 
[[Transformers History of Music 1984-1990]] 
[[Transformers: Mosaic]] 
[[Transformers Name Generator]] 
[[Transformers Battle Universe]] 
[[The Transformers: Binaltech & TF Collection Complete Guide]] 
[[The Transformers Comic Magazine]] 
[[Transformers Pop-Up Book]] 
[[Transformers Visualworks]] 
[[Transformers Tooth Tunes]] 
[[Transformers Tapestry]] 
[[Transformers Song Universe]] 
[[Transformers G1: Awakening]] 
[[Transformers Armada Annual 2004]] 
[[Transformers: Beginnings]] 
[[Transformers the Movie water]] 
[[Transformers: The Score]] 
[[Transformers: The Thirteen]] 
[[Transformers: War Within Omnibus]] 
[[Transformers: The Ride]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Mutating Card Game]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Jigsaw Puzzle]] 
[[Transformers: Kōtetsu no Yūki]] 
[[The Transformers Continuum: The Definitive Chronology]] 
[[The Transformers: Bumblebee]] 
[[Transformers Adventures]] (etc.) 
[[Top Trumps: Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Race for the Mini-Con Robots]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Battle Begins]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Secret of the Star Saber]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Autobots Strike Back]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 1]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 2]] 
[[Transformers Theme Song Collection]] 
[[The Transformers: Drift]] 
[[Transformers Revenge of the Fallen Annual 2010]] 
[[Transformers CyberToy]] 
[[Transformers Hall of Fame]] 
[[The Transformers: Ironhide]] 
[[Transformers Evo.]] 
[[The Transformers Legends of the Microns: Sound of Evolution Vol. 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Music Matrix]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide: Revenge]] 
[[Transformers: Battle for the Matrix]] 
[[Transformers: Coloring and Activity Book and Stickers]] 
[[Transformers: Activity Book and Gel Pen]] 
[[Transformers: Sector 7]] 
[[Transformers: Cybertron Adventures]] 
[[Transformers Cards]] 
[[Transformers RPMs: Devastator's Demise]] 
[[Cadbury's Transformers Card Game]] 
[[Ridiculous Legend Transformers]] 
[[Famicom How-to Manga: Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Transformers Caramel]] 
[[Transformers Comic-Magazin]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Extra Comic-Sonderheft]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Super-Auswahlband]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Energon Valentine's cards]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 1]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 2]]

For many of them, the choice to keep or drop the "TF" seems intuitive, and many others are in a grey area... but I'll be damned if I can put into words any kind of coherent rationale. I'm seriously thinking that we've outgrown the "drop extraneous 'TF's" rule. Back when we only had a few hundred pages, it made a certain kind of sense: Why bother writing out stuff like "Transformers: Generation 2" when just "Generation 2" is equally meaningful to everyone here? Besides, isn't every page about Transformers by default? But in the past five years, both the wiki and the subject matter have exploded, and with both so many fine-grain, obscure topics being covered and so much not-strictly-TF content we've added, I don't think the policy serves us anymore. It doesn't make things simple; it makes things arbitrary and unpredictable.

So unless someone can sum up our policy in a way that makes a lick of sense, I propose: '''If a topic has an official title, then that should be used in full as the title of the relevant articles.''' Period. So [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] would stay right where they are, and yes, [[Generation 2 (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)", [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)", etc. I don't think we'd need to make that change happen instantly, but we could slowly propagate it as people feel inclined to. I also think we can keep the parenthetical abbreviations and in-sentence references as short as they currently are; this is only about the titles.

Thoughts?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:What are these "Transformers"? -[[Special:Contributions/75.185.113.106|75.185.113.106]] 18:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I've always been for having the full name as article titles. (Maybe also drop the "(franchise)" disambigs, because durr, but that's other topic.) Not only do we keep the full name of the subject, it aids us in disambiguation (it's easier to have smaller sets of "Transformers: Cybertron" and "Cybertron" than a large set of just "Cybertron"). [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::I don't have an opinion on adding or removing "Transformers:" from articles (other than that adding it would perhaps make articles and reading unnecessarily longer - right now, I hate having to type out "Transformers Animated" before "The AllSpark Almanac"), but I do oppose removing (franchise). If there's one thing I hate, it's when there's one 'most important' page that goes undisamb'ed (like Spark) and you'll have to go through a lot of trouble to ensure it all is meant to link there. When I cleaned up the Lithone links for planet and species, nearly every single one link directed the wrong way. Same for D-HQ, AllSpark vs Allspark, Junkion, Black Friday, etc. So, keep (franchise). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:49, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I too think "Transformers: " should be kept as well as " (franchise)". --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:46, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::I don't mind losing Transformers when it the prefix in a title that's the form of Transformers: <subtitle>, as in that case the subtitle itself is more the actual official name and "Transformers" is just tacked on as an extra identifier.

::::But in some of those things, Transformers is, well, a vital part of the thing's actual name. I mean, for instance, the Club's full official name ''is'' "Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club", so removing "Transformers" from it would be incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 03:00, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I don't think that distinction is clear enough to be workable anymore. Looking at that list, tons of them I have no idea which side of the divide they'd fall on. For instance, "[[Transformers Legends]]" is the proper title of the book; that's how it would be listed in any store or library, but for ''our'' purposes the "TF" is as extraneous as the one that we omit from [[Energon (comic)]] or [[Dinobots Strike Back]]. The "for our purposes" thing is so often so questionable... like, what would that dictate for [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]? It's definitely a subtitle situation like you described, but there are lots of non-TF "Ultimate Guide"s published by the same company... but we would never cover them, so for our purposes is the "TF" still redundant?
:::::I agree with Geewunling that it would be annoying to have to type out longer titles (though readability should be unchanged, since I think we could still truncate in-sentence references). But right NOW it's annoying that our lack of a coherent policy is making everything increasingly unpredictable. We're seeing a lot of creep in the form of stuff like [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and for some reason video games. So I don't even know what should be "corrected" anymore or how to decide the matter when creating a new article.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 13:58, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::::The annoyance of editors doesn't really enter into my consideration; the wiki is ultimately for the readers, not our convenience. If we have to do some more work for the best presentation, so be it. —Interrobang, not logged in

:I'm OK with moving articles to put Transformers into the title so long as we don't delete the redirects. If we move "Revenge of the Fallen (film)" to "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)", there are going to be a whole bunch of sites linking to the old URL, and I don't wanna have a repeat of the "(Shattered Glass)" thing where all the redirects get deleted and a whole lot of other sites are pointing to useless error pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:25, 23 February 2011 (EST)

=="(WFC)" vs. "(Prime)"==
There are currently [[Talk:Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#"(WFC)" instead of "(Prime)" for characters that originated in this franchise?|two]] [[Talk:Optimus Prime (Prime)#Move|discussions]] going about whether articles on subjects that originated in ''War for Cybertron''-branded fiction (the [[War for Cybertron games|games]], [[Transformers: Exodus|novel]], and [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|comic]]) should be titled "(WFC)" rather than "(Prime)". It was suggested that this should be brought up in the Community Portal, so here it is.

For the record, looking at [[War for Cybertron games#Featured Characters|this list]], right now we're using "(Prime)" for all named characters, even those currently exclusive to WfC, and "(WFC)" for all character ''types'' from the games. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the state of things.

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:46, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I completely agree with Jackpot. It is stupid we have an article called [[Ultra Magnus (Prime)]] stating "Ultra Magnus is an Autobot Wrecker from the WFC portion of the Aligned family continuity". I blame myself for not doing this a lot earlier, treating the WFC navbox as like a subsection of Prime when the novel was so clearly a tie-in to those games. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 18:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::WFC is a tie-in game. As I pointed out, how many Mini-Cons from the PS2 Transformers game use the disambiguator "(Transformers)"? And even then, what of novel-original characters? Do they get "(Exodus)"? And heck, didn't Exodus come out ''before'' WFC? Shouldn't the characters thusly use "(Exodus)" over "(WFC)" or "(Prime)"? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::: The book and game came out on the same day, as I recall. So... yeah. I'm completely against this. We used "Prime" because that was the name we WERE using for the continuity family; frankly, I find this wishy-washy "aligned continuity family" thing pretty lame. The core of the damn family is the Prime cartoon. It is THE central feature, and will be THE major fictional outlet and -almost assuredly- what future non-show fictions will adhere more closely to. I don't see the point in all this subdividing and adding more parantheticals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:19, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::I find it ''extremely'' hard to believe that if Hasbro's "decade" plan goes through, ''Prime'' is the last franchise we're going to see spring from it. Even Aaron Archer thinks "Prime" is a bad name for the overall deal. Given what a fractured start it's already off to, I think separating out the "family" foundation is the only sensible thing to do. So that's why [[Aligned continuity family]] exists.
::::As for the "(WFC)" notion, I'm not as personally attached to that, even though I do think it's the correct thing to do. Mostly I think that WfC needs to be acknowledged as an entity unto itself, not just a subset of ''Prime''. Strictly from a branding point of view, it ISN'T a subset; nothing has been both WfC- and Prime-branded. It's not just the title of a video game; it's in the titles of [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|a comic]] and [[Transformers: Exodus|a novel]], plus they've made [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#Toys|toys from it]] that definitely don't fit the ''Prime'' brand. (True, the toys aren't labeled "WfC", but that's par for the course with ''Generations'' anyway. At the very least, it's a grey area.) Beyond branding, it just has a unique aesthetic and sensibility that's very different from ''Prime''.
::::Based on all that, the best place WfC fits in our schema is as a "franchise", to my judgement. "''Prime'' tie-in" doesn't cut it.
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:55, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::WFC is not ''just'' a tie-in game. It has [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fcfb1b5-19b9-f369-10be-e91a2108d9ab online bios] and [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172 online timeline]. Hasbro made it its own thing. Franchise-like. Before any Prime show started we learned from the timeline that [[Megatron (Prime)|D-16]] was an Energon mine laborer and rose to prominence in secret gladiatorial combat and took the name "Megatron". So [[Megatron (Prime)]] had a whole history before the show even existed. The non-show characters with the (Prime) disambiguation also shows it doesn't quite fit. I'd go for WFC. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:35, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::AGAIN, Exodus came out the SAME DAY. So why does WFC get prominence? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:56, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::Because that's the phrase that's used in the names of [[War for Cybertron games|all]] [[Transformers: Exodus|the]] [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|media]]. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:02, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I don't see how the subline "The official history of the war for Cybertron" is the exact same as "War For Cybertron: The Vidya Game". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:24, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::I agree. Aside from three (ambiguous) words on the book's front, there's not much that says it's part of the WFC "franchise". Same for Generations. If they wanted to, they could have made figures of every War for Cybertron character and released it in a toyline explicitly called "Transformers: War for Cybertron". But they didn't; they just released five toys based on WFC designs and released them under Generations, so Generations is a WFC toy line as much as it is a G1 one (actually, probably more of G1 considering how very few WFC toys there were). The video games are only different because of hardware limitations, so having multiple games with the same title does not a franchise make. Having a website with bios and everything is a moot point, because almost every video game has that. The comic, I'll give you that one, but I don't think it's a franchise if it's a game and a tie-in comic with a limited release. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:30, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::For what it's worth, when you [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/movie-news/Transformers-War-for-Cybertron.cfm click on "War For Cybertron"] it brings up all the Generations toys. I also think the WFC timeline ties in Exodus to WFC since the events in the comic and timeline are basically from the book. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::It also brings up PCC Icepick (item 12 of 12, on page 2). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:52, 28 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::The WfC-branded timeline and comic both cover events in ''Exodus''. Hell, the comic was written by the same dude. I don't understand the logic that says that the "War for Cybertron" in the novel's title doesn't mean the same thing. If there were a novel called "Deuteronomy: The Official History of the Beast Wars" set during the events of the cartoon, I wouldn't be trying to say it was part of the ''Beast Machines'' franchise.
::::::::Let me put in a slightly different light: Because franchises are branding-based, not continuity-based, I'm not comfortable with the ''Prime'' franchise being stretched to include all this stuff that doesn't have the ''Prime'' label on it. Yes, it's clearly all RELATED, story-wise, but that's what [[Aligned continuity family|continuity pages]] are for. This feels like taking ''Machine Wars'' (which is the opposite kind of sparse: a toyline with virtually no fiction) and rolling it into G2. Sure, they're in the same family, and there are connections between the two, but they're not marketed with the same label, so we don't do it. Before ''Prime'' existed, there were these other forms of media sharing a unique title (that even got the TF-logo lockup treatment!) and covering common ground. Then ''Prime'' showed up, and so far the two labels have not been seen on the same product. To me, that means two franchises.
::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::But... there is no overarching label on the products we have poked into the WFC "Franchise". "Transformers: War for Cybertron" has its own logo which is also on the tie-in comic, and Exodus has its own logo. They're still prequels to TF:Prime. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:33, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::::I guess I just see the "War for Cybertron" in the title of ''Exodus'' as having more meaning than you do. Yeah, Hasbro could've been more blatant if they'd wanted to, but it's still clearly telling the reader it's part of the same deal as the WfC games and comic, without making any reference to ''Prime'' (or vice-versa). I can imagine a situation where the ''Prime'' branding might retroactively subsume WfC, like how the "Wreckers" comic was given the ''Universe'' brand (they say there's another game coming out, after all). But that hasn't happened yet, so in the meantime I say WfC doesn't belong under the ''Prime'' franchise.
::::::::::Anyway, at this point if we don't see eye-to-eye, we probably won't, so I'm going to shut up now.
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:What about the next thing after ''Prime'' that is in the Modern/Aligned continuity? We would have a new disambiguation, like, "Spike (Next Franchise)." and characters that have never been in Prime, like "Ultra Magnus (Prime)." Kind of confusing. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::No it isn't. The idea that WFC/Exodus are part of a big wad of continuity colloquially known as "Prime", and referred to as "Prime" because the "Prime" cartoon is THE core of the whole shebang, and will liekly BE said core for the near future, is not a hard one. It only gets confusing when you start letting obfuscating pedantry in, at which point you're only making more work for no payoff and making things harder for our readers. A trend which seems to keep coming up over and over again, I've noticed... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:09, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::I'm pretty sure I've had my share of "obfuscating pedantry" moments, but I completely agree with Siph on this one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:18, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::For the record, if people really think that using "(WFC)" would be confounding to readers, that's not a decision I'm very invested in. This discussion has ballooned into bigger issues that I ''do'' feel more strongly about, but the parenthetical itself is very take-it-or-leave-it for me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I would at the least support migrating characters who have thus far ''only'' appeared in WFC to the appropriate parenthetical.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:55, 1 March 2011 (EST)
:And move them back if they appear in Prime? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 11:03, 1 March 2011 (EST)
::Yes. I think that would make the most sense to people looking for the characters.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::I am willing to make this compromise for the time being. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 14:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)

==War For Cybertron==
War for cybertron is a relativley new game, but it is a great one. I am kind of new on this website, but to me, it looks like the War For Cybertron title has gotten mixed up with Transformers: Prime, a completley diffrent universe. also, WFC is G1 Canon. All the WFC pages and articles should be labled on G1, MAJOR cleanup is needed. {{unsigned|Holymoses|06:30, March 3, 2011 (EST)}}
:You clearly ''are'' quite new, because we would advise you to read [[Aligned continuity family|this article]] before you start in on this notion. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 06:33, 3 March 2011 (EST)
:In Hasbro's own words: "The TRANSFORMERS brand team would like to confirm that Transformers War for Cybertron video game, Transformers Exodus novel, and the Transformers Prime television show are in the same aligned continuity. Hasbro is creating a single continuity to tell the bulk of our TRANSFORMERS stories going forward." Here's the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/8189/20/ link] to the announcement --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 06:45, 3 March 2011 (EST)
::You aren't completely wrong. The game developers were heavily inspired by G1, and were pretty much making a G1 game as far as they knew. It's just that, like Khajidha said, Hasbro says War for Cybertron is part of the same continuity as Prime, so that's what the wiki goes with. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:00, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Well that still seems weird, since "Prime" has a completley diffrent story, and "Exodus" doesnt connect the two sagas very well. even if its what Hasbro said, i think we should put all this into consideration, Aaron Archer himself said that War for Cybertron was a game set in the G1 Universe. I think its wrong of Hasbro to try and connect the two diffrent Continuities. {{unsigned|Holymoses|09:12, March 4, 2011 (EST)}}
:First of all, when did Aaron Archer say that? Second, Hasbro gets to define what is in each continuity for the simple reason that it is their intellectual property. It may not be to your liking, but it cannot be wrong as they are the ones who determine what is right. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, gonna need a source on that Archer statement. Especially since he's been amongst the ones saying WFC/Exodus is part of the new continuity. Also, weren't a lot of elements in WFC, like Dark Energon, Hasbro mandates from a story bible they supplied the creators (hereby proving that Hasbro's intent was always for it to be part of the new continuity), or am I imagining things again? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:08, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::From what I read about that production bible, it is a result of guys at Hasbro sitting down and "[http://collider.com/roberto-orci-jeff-kline-interview-transformers-prime/75039/ coalescing all the mythologies] that they had institutionally for years. Actually putting it down to paper." It sounds like they were just collecting and not adding new stuff in. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Energon were added ''after'' it was in the game. And what about timing? Orci said Hasbro put together the bible after the movies came out (in mid 2009). The video game came out in mid 2010 with a video game lead time of ??? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::Unless Dark Energon is actually just the new name for Angolmois energy. The name may have been taken from the video game, but the concept could well have been in the production bible before WFC. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:37, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::What a load of supposition and crap. I hereby dub it "crapposition". I can pretty much say that you are completely wrong. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::::[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/05/interview-matt-tieger-of-high-moon-studios-on-transformers/ Matt Tieger said] that High Moon started working on WfC when they shipped their "Bourne" game, which according to the accompanying notes was mid-2008, between the first movie and RotF. [http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/interviewtransformerswarforcybertron2.html This interview] talks up the G1 inspiration and then says the WfC storyline is "a completely original story that we made up at High Moon. We worked closely with Hasbro..." The consistent impression I've gotten from several different interviews is that High Moon started from G1 and then made pitches to Hasbro, which Hasbro would provide feedback on, and eventually there was a game. The only people who I've seen actually talk about the 400-page story-bible are the ''Prime'' creators. And if Orci was being literal when he said the bible was put together "after the movie’s came out", then game development would've indeed started earlier. At the very least, it sounds pretty likely that there was some simultaneous creation.
:::::In the end, the chicken-and-egg question is basically moot because either way, WfC is part of the new deal. It doesn't matter who said the words "Dark Energon" first; it's part of the structure that binds all of the pieces, so that's that. But for nitpicking's sake, Starfield's suppositions aren't off-base from the evidence we have. Siph, if you have additional info that clarifies or contradicts any of that, please share.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::::I, similarly, have found it quite plausible when thinking on the subject to believe that High Moon could have created the idea of Dark Energon, and that Hasbro then said to themselves "We can use THAT!" and put it in the bible. It's certainly outside the realm of possibility, unless you know something we don't, Siph. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 05:24, 5 March 2011 (EST)

:Because nothing whatsoever can change in the millions of years between the WFC era and the Prime cartoon era. And yeah, good luck sourcing that Aaron claim. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
I think that if they were in the game or in Exodus:The Offical History of the War for Cybertron, they should be labled (WFC),but if they poped into the Prime teley-show or comics, they should be labled (Prime).-[ [User:DinoDigger97|DinoDigger97]] 2:11 3 Apil 2011

== Captured-Prey ads ==

One of the things advertised there appears to be a fan-made Megatron min-figure. Seeing as how everybody was upset that the TFSource ad [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive47#TFsource_ad_buy|featured fansproject stuff]], surely, this isn't right either? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 05:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)
:Check the section back up this page titled [[#Project_Wonderful_ads|Project Wonderful ads]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 8 March 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen video game character articles - [X] Scout 1, [X] Scout 2 pages for the same design ==

With the upcoming DOTM games, I thought I should look at the ROTF game articles that were abandoned in 2009 and see if I could do anything for them. I believe it was Derik who made this decision, but I am now wondering if it is necessary to have say [[Aerialbot Scout 1]] and [[Aerialbot Scout 2]], [[Omnibot Scout 1]] and [[Omnibot Scout 2]] (and so on) considering "Scout 1" and "Scout 2" are just the two different colour schemes for these mass produced generic, nameless characters who only differ in terms of textures. Any completed articles on these will have different images, but exactly the same information. Isn't that redundant? Should we perhaps just stick both of each under Aeriabot Scout, Omnibot Scout, Stunticon Scout? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:14, 11 March 2011 (EST)
:According to the articles the two Aerialbot Scouts have different health, primary weapon and secondary weapon ratings. Is that enough for separation? I don't know, but it should be considered before making a decision. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 11 March 2011 (EST)
::I don't even know where those stats came from - I don't believe the person who filled them in originally ever explained. Were they from a website, article or guide book? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:42, 11 March 2011 (EST)

== Found some much needed images, but... ==

I found them on [http://transformersiv.mforos.com/1519135/8979801-transformers-g1-aventuras-y-nostalgias-que-nunca-moriran/ this site], and I don't speak the language (I think it's Spanish) to ask for their permission to use them. The images are covers of the [[Marvel Books]] titles [[Battle at Oil Valley]], [[Summertime Coloring Book]], and [[Super Activity Book]]. That's right we don't even have an article for that last one. They also have page scans of these and other Marvel Books titles. I don't feel right just taking them for our use here and was wondering if someone who spoke the lingo would contact them for us. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 12 March 2011 (EST)
:Nevermind, Google Chrome finally remembered that it had translational abilities. The poster is offering them for download to all and sundry, so he/she can hardly care if we borrow them. I'll probably still insert a link to the main site out of courtesy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:22, 12 March 2011 (EST)
::After looking at them, I realized that they were Steve Stonebreaker's scans. I have contacted him and received permission to use them here. I'll be adding more soon. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 16 March 2011 (EDT)

== Hey, I've got a new user talk page template request... ==
[[Image:Rebirth1 Hardhead and Blurr.jpg|right|thumb|300px|TOO MANY QUOTES]]
Can we have one that reminds folks that every new thing in Transformers that even vaguely reminds you of an old thing in Transformers IS NOT A REFERENCE AND THAT IS NOT HOW REFERENCES WORK AND STOP PUTTING THEM IN THE "TRANSFORMERS REFERENCES" SECTION. Ahem. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:18, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:You mean like [[Template:notareference|this]]? --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:22, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
::Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:30, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:::Brilliant. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:39, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::That's an oldie, but a goodie. Personally, I'm wondering if there's any template that can be set up for the people that just drown episode articles in quotes... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:42, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::I think we'd first need a consensus on how many quotes are appropriate. [[User:JW|JW]] 07:41, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::It's a conversation that needs to be had, I think. You have to take length of the story into account - there are more quotes in a two hour movie than in a twenty five minute episode. I'd put the early cutoff at around five for episodes, though. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 08:00, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I like the idera of a mximum of 5 per 30 minutes (or part thereof) for Episodes & movies, but what would be a good size for comics? I'd say around 3 per issue, but it breaks down with short issues and back up stories (i.e.e most of the Marvel UK exclusive stuff...) [[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 10:19, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'd set a "soft" limit higher for 30-minute episodes {{m-}} around 10 quotes {{m-}} and I'd allow more than that if the episode was particularly well-written or quotable. I don't think there's any need for a low, hard limit, as I don't think lots of quotes hurt the wiki until we get into "quoting the whole darn episode" territory. Heck, in fact, I might favor a policy of ''judging each quote for itself.'' I.e., if a quote is good/noteworthy/illustrative/funny/wadeva, it can be kept, even if there are two dozen other quotes already. Each must stand on its merits, but there would be no hard cap. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yeah, some episodes happen to have a lot of funny/significant/memorable lines, others don't. If we set a hard cap, we might be damning ourselves to a lot of pointless fights over which quotes deserve to be included under the arbitrary limit. I'm more in favor of making a list of criteria that we can point to when we weed lame quotes out.
:::::::::Oh, and I support making a template. ''Prime'' Soundwave is the best character I can think of to use, but Movie Bumblebee or G1 Wreck-Gar would also be appropriate. Or a shot of G1 Soundwave with a tape inside of him? Can't think of a good header, though...
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 11:49, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::I mainly suggested it as a starting point because if it comes down to putting each quote in place based on "which one we like more" the talk pages are going to be absolutely horrible. HOW CAN YOU LEAVE OUT MY FAVORITE QUOTE IT IS SO FUNNY AND RELEVANT. The "5 per 30 minutes" is just a suggestion - obviously an episode that's really funny or poignant can get more. Comics issues we could maybe use pagecount as a starting point. But basically, combine the two ideas. A list of criteria is a good idea, but we also need to avoid having like, thirty quotes for a given story, twelve of which are totally shitty. If we get over five-six quotes, it's time to think about trimming, just because seriously, 90% of TF fiction isn't that goddamned quotable - or there are better places for the quotes. "I don't rock and roll - I burn!" belongs on Inferno's page, not on the episode it appeared in. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:51, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::Fair enough. Just so long as the number is sufficiently "soft" that we don't forget that our goal is high quality, not an arbitrarily low quantity. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:17, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Exactly. Like I said, I think we can also judiciously use key ''character'' quotes on the ''characters''' pages. Some quotes are very episode/story specific, while others provide insight into a character's personality or mindset. I think that's a good way to winnow the chaff, you know? -hx at work not logged in gotta run
::::::::::::::The 5-6 quotes before we start trimming sounds good, especially if some more individual character based quotes can be moved to the character pages. The big problem I keep seeing with quotes is that too many people want to quote an entire scene. If it goes beyond 3 lines it's probably not what we mean by quote here. And even 3 lines is pushing it. These should really be a single line quip or a two line set up and pay off. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:22, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::5 to 6 sounds like a good starting point to me as well. Khajidha makes a good point about the definition of quote. That, along with Hooks' point about using key character quotes on that character's article, should be pointed out on [[Help:Example episode article]], once it exists. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
What about block quotes? The page for Transformers (2007) is full of them. I think there should be a limit on how long the quote can be.--[[User:Megatron Prime|Megatron Prime]] 16:48, 19 May 2011 (EDT)
== Maybe a silly question, can we? ==

Ok, exposing my ignorance here, but isthere a way to search the wiki by alt-mode? If I wanted to know every TF that turns into a Helicopter say? There's not a "helicopter" catagory, so howwould I find them all? Thanks for any help.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:59, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]] covers some characters. There's been a few vague proposals to create a new hierarchy of categories for altmodes, but it would be a lot of work, and it's generally shouted down. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:08, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:I think the current best option if you want to do something like this is TFU.info's Identify section. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 11:00, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

==Grimlock letter==
[[Image:Grimlock letter.jpg|thumb|right]]
I recently acquired this and thought it's exactly the sort of thing we should be covering. I had no idea it even existed until a friend sent it to me and on that thought, should we add letters from Soundwave, Ratchet(?), Dreadwind and Blaster to the Holy Grails? Was there a similar response from the US comic, and do Titan still send these letters out today from Starscream? Enquiring minds want to know. Incidentally, he said he got Tailgate as his free mini-toy. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:31, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
:Good find. A letter from Grimlock is pretty awesome. That should go somewhere. The Letters Page page? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:58, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
::I've added a link from there; I'll type it up verbatim if we think it's justified? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:09, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

== Voice actors by series ==

We have a bunch of categories for voice actors by language, but I was wondering if we should have categories for voice actors by series? Would categories like "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Victory voice actors" be useful? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:27, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

:That could be useful. It'd be better than looking up cast lists and opening up every character page, at least. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:30, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

::Sound like a nice idea to me. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 10:01, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

== "Just Stop" Notice? ==

Do we think there's a role for the following proposed user notice template, for users like Eagc7?

{{messagebox|image_name=War_War_Stop_It.jpg|image_width=225px|width=90%|header=Just Stop|message_text=Please stop editing this wiki. While you haven't done anything ban-worthy (yet), you are not a productive contributor. (The reasons ''why'' are above this notice on your talk page.) So, please, '''just stop.'''}}

Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 14:39, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:If one is created, I love this image for it! --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 15:35, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::It seems a bit rude, but the image would be ''perfect'' if this is made. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 15:45, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:::If this gets phrased differently, I'd support it. Right now, the text's too rude. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:52, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::::I think it is meant to be rude and probably should be rude. This tag is designed to be placed on the talk pages of people who have seemingly ignored the multiple instances of other tags. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:57, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

I'm a little iffy on this proposal. I admit that Eagc7 has a very poor grasp of the English language, but I'm a little uncomfortable with telling a person to leave a site just because of that. If you look over his fiction edits (the ones you can read) the posts he has made are accurate, just...occasionally unreadable. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:02, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
:I'm with SFH. Eagc7's English seems to be all over the place, but there are times when he gets it more or less correctly and only needs minor typo fixes. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:21, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Whether a person's edits are bad enough (and bad enough all the time enough) to ask them to never post again seems like something that shouldn't be in the hands of, well, everybody. Putting a template up that says you're a bad speller or that you're not using Preview enough... that's pretty straight forward. But I dunno if I'm comfortable with giving us all a tool to shame each other off the wiki entirely. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:49, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:In addition, if someone's edits are so bad (and so consistently bad) that they're more of a nuisance than they are helpful, then that person should probably just be gotten rid of, instead of getting the Middle Finger Personified In A Template. As Detour said, yeah, Eagc7's English could use some work, but he does enough good here that I don't think he's completely poison or anything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
I could maybe get behind the idea of a "Stop editing until you've read the complaints on your user page" template for the blissfully unaware people constantly making edits that are being undone as soon as they make them whilst ignoring comments on their user page telling them what they're doing wrong. But a template like THIS, and this sort of behavior in general, is how we end up with trolls that come by and vandalize the wiki on a daily basis for years and years. We could avoid that sort of future headache by just not being all-out douchebags to people even if they're stupid and/or their contributions are annoying. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:15, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:I suppose the only problem with making a "read your talk page" template is that they'll never read it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:24, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::: I like this idea, too. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::Got me there. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:36, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:This will not go well. If someone's a real pest here, ban them. If they're being a pest but not quite that bad yet, notify them on their talkpage with whichever templates are already needed, and then if they don't clean up, ban them. We shouldn't be creating--publicly--an underclass of users. If you're allowed to have an account here, you're allowed to post--otherwise we look scummy. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 19:17, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::This is basically every stereotype of this wiki and its userbase given textbox form. I love it. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 20:33, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

The consensus seems to be against it, and the arguments are all good ones. (Kind of a pity, since the image was so perfect, but...) I withdraw the suggestion. Thanks all for weighing in! [[User:JW|JW]] 20:25, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:It is a good template despite the rudeness, but it is potentially necessary for extreme conditions as a last resort. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Is it possible that we could reuse that image for another template? Perhaps a Final Warning template, letting users know that if they don't cut their shit out, they're gonna get banned. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:42, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
: Clearly it should be used for a "stop edit/revert warring" template. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:32, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

== Our Blogger blog? ==

To me it appears that our blog doesn't have much use. Our twitter sends out links to occasional pages and our facebook is an easy place to congregate and talk about TFs and not take up our talk pages, but the blog hasn't been used in over half a year.

I'm thinking using it to keep track of current trends and such. We could highlight pages that are being worked on, point out users who have been creating/adding a lot to pages (i.e. Geewunling creating minor GI Joe pages, Chris McFeely going crazy with the Japanese food tie-ins). This way an editor or lurker who happens to miss a few days can easily catch up rather than having to sift through the new pages and new files (and even then if a page has just had an entirely new writeup from a stub, it wouldn't show up there).

Any thoughts on this? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:21, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

:I think it would be a good way to draw attention to obscure and/or new stuff on the Wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:46, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
::I think so, too, but there are questions left unanswered if we want to go ahead with this. Who would be given control over the posts? Should it be extra mod duties or instead given to some other veteran editors? If so, how many? Would we want weekly updates or something with less frequency? Overall, who is in the current position to grant other users the power to add posts. I can see this as a useful too, but like many things on this wiki, we need to come up with some sort of procedure before it comes to fruition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:33, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

==TFwiki in the past week==
Could someone tell me why the TFwiki has been down/inaccessible for most of the time in the past week? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:04, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:I would wager "massive spikes in traffic, as DotM stuff hits," which has happened before.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::I thought traffic wouldn't be a likely cause since the third movie is still over a month away. Guess I was wrong. Thanks! [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:27, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:::There's at least some clamor now that the toys are out there.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:46, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::::Technical explanation or non-technical? Traffic HAS picked up a bit, the wiki hardware (such as it is) is slightly overtaxed, and we need to start doing some math on what we can separate into other servers, and how much it'll cost to do so.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:15, 13 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::Cowboy time. We've moved the application server and cache to another box, and synced over the contents. If anything's missing, we can try to sync it over from the old webserver, but it wouldn't be off by more than a few minutes, so here's hoping that we're back in business!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:43, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::No wonder the connection becomes smooth again recently. Nice Works!! --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:45, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Yeah, I'd noticed that the site was back to normal. Thanks for the hard work. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:52, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::Thanks for fixing our wiki! [[User:JW|JW]] 07:15, 18 May 2011 (EDT)

== Eagc7's movie comic section edits ==

Lately Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is good. However, Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is bad. I know he tries, but whenever he does this sort of thing, he just ends up creating work for somebody else to clean up, and frankly, it's easier to write stuff from scratch than it is to fix somebody's spelling & grammar, as well as trying to make the text fit the tone and style of the paragraphs surrounding it (which is important considering the Foundation comics take place during the other Movie prequel comics). I haven't read Foundation and Rising Storm, [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eagc7 so I can't fix all of this myself], but that seems like a fair bit of work to fix at a time when the wiki was experiencing random downtime and BotCon is rapidly approaching (meaning a good chunk of our regular editors will not be able to edit much, and in any case would be updating stuff about/from BotCon). Like I said, I know he's trying, and he's getting much better than he used to be, but... maybe he should leave fiction edits to the professionals. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:27, 18 May 2011 (EDT)
:Take it up with him via his Talk Page or the E-mail a User link. If there's really a stylistic problem, then we need a Style Guide for new users to reference.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:04, 19 May 2011 (EDT)

==Page views==
Where have they gone? I believe that they have disappeared from down the pages since the move a few weeks ago. Can they be put back? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:09, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
: I don't recall pageviews... What in specific are you talking about? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:12, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::I guess [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Popularpages popular pages]? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::Yeah those, how often a page has been visited. I kinda liked keeping tabs on relative popularity in pages (like how Mayumi and Shinichi ''never'' lost their 2:1 view ratio). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 16:24, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::The broken popular pages has apparently been a thing lately, as I noticed Abates was removing and re-adding the link to [[MediaWiki:Recentchangestext]] earlier this month. Maybe he knows more about it? --[[User:Apoc|Apoc]] 18:41, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::No more than anyone else. I noticed it was gone and removed it from the template, but then it came back when we did the move so I readded it. I guess it got removed again, possibly for performance reasons? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:58, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
::::::If I had to make a poorly-educated guess, the pageview thing sounds exactly like one of the many things I had to remove from Shortpacked.com to keep it from lagging so so badly. Lots of neat little things like page tracking and stuff like that used to be on there, but they were more trouble, resources-wise, than they were worth. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:20, 29 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I didn't change anything, but I generally make it a point to keep away from the Mediawiki software config, for fear of breaking that which I don't understand. --[[User:McFly|McFly]] 13:07, 9 June 2011 (EDT)

== Why is Melissa from Kiss Players on the same Page as Marissa Faireborn from G1? ==

I know they are some how connected ,but i see the two as different as G1 Starscream is to Animated Starscream ,maybe the same history ,but a little different.--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Michael Alex Kawa]] 10:43, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
:They are related in the same way that Orion Pax is related to G1 Optimus Prime. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 10:51, 30 May 2011 (EDT)
: Marissa = Marissa. Same continuity and everything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:02, 30 May 2011 (EDT)

== I don't know if this was what you are looking for when you asked for Kiss Players radio play translations ,but i hope this helps . ==

I found this on Youtube cause I LOVE Melissa and noticed in that Holy Grail thingy that you guys needed Kiss Players radio play translations .I hope this helps ,even if it doesn't it is still pretty cool and CUTE .I did not make it so that is noted .Here is the link so you guys can go and look to see if it what is needed ,it is the only one i can find ,if it helps i will try to find more .[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZvUg2c649Y]
--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 18:25, 2 June 2011 (EDT)

I also found this site ,it gives a brief description of the radio play ,again i hope this helps .[http://www.toyvey.com/kisskiss/radioplay/index.html]--[[User:Michael Alex Kawa|Melissa]] 14:32, 3 June 2011 (EDT)
:I haven't looked at the material myself yet (I'm afraid it'll make me have to clean myself until I bleed to get the stain out) but if it's legit, then thank you very, VERY much. This stuff needs to be cataloged to serve as a warning to future generations. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 07:25, 5 June 2011 (EDT)

== The multiverse ==

So, at BotCon, Aaron Archer declared the Aligned continuity separate from the old, more meta multiverse. How does everyone want to approach this? Separate the aligned information about Primus, Unicron and the members of the 13, or keep it together for easy access and lack of confusion just as one article covers the various versions of the Matrix, or Energon, or the AllSpark? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 05:06, 6 June 2011 (EDT)

MediaWiki:Tech

2011-05-26T15:41:11Z

McFly: /* Hosting */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-05-19T15:04:17Z

McFly: /* Eagc7's movie comic section edits */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


==Didn't we have a Transformers Appearances/References in Other Media page?==
I could have sworn we did, mentioning stuff like Family guy etc. If we don't have such a page, would it be allowed to be created? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 11:53, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:Unless it's officially sanctioned by Hasbro, no, we do not mention Transformer appearances in other media. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:54, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:: If it ever existed, it would have been destroyed with fire in about 30 seconds. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:46, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::: Of course, if we did have such a page, we could use it as a lighting rod, keep anons from adding something to Soundwave's page every time Seth Green says the word "transformers." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:28, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Of course, NO. Discussion over. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Discussion not quite over. If the unofficial nature of the topic is the reason why it is not allowed, then there are several articles that already exist that are pushing boundaries on the wiki. I would have thought that the biggest problem would be it's size.[[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 09:26, 20 December 2010 (EST)
:::::Yeah, that'd be the other big reason. There's so many such references it would be impossible to keep track of them all. It would also involve making sure what's added there is actually a TF reference. And given all the Toms, Dicks and Harrys that'll come out of the woodwork to add such stuff, that's going to be more trouble than not having a page. Best not to get a larger headache for the sake of reducing a smaller one. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:44, 20 December 2010 (EST)

=="Knockoff warning" for toy sections?==
Just something that occurred to me... as I skimmed this page http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 and looked at alllllll the "could be mistaken for real and paid stupid money for" knockoffs... is there any objection to some form of link to this in the relevant toy sections? Sadly, the page lacks a "jump to" feature of any kind, but alerting people to the potential danger of dropping several hundred on what they think is a genuine Defensor box set... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:50, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:I think it skirts the line with our "we don't really discuss knockoffs" policy, but on the other hand, yeah, it's a useful bit of information, almost to the point where we could stand to have a special page about ''these specific knockoffs''. I am not opposed to adding a link to that site, no, as long as it's got a massive and specific caveat attached to it (maybe even with a special template box thing ("A Prime Problem"-themed perhaps?)). Hell, maybe the highendtfs people would be willing to throw up navigation in exchange for the inevitable deluge of hits - anyone got contact info for the owner? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 09:11, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::It's worth noting that there are some very well-done Henkei seekers knockoffs now, too. The really expensive ones even, like Thundercracker. Their sections could use warnings as well. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:56, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::Are they in knockoff PACKAGING that is meant to look like the real thing? That's the really tricky part. G1 MIB shit is much, much more expensive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:27, 19 December 2010 (EST)
::::Yes, they are: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/buyer-beware-update-on-ko-henkei-seekers/20380/ -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:03, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::I am not sure I want to attach more template boxes to pages as is. Especially over something like knockoffs. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:55, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::I'd ''thought'' about a template, but... ehn. I think a simple link under the TFU.info (or whatever), perhaps with a bolded "'''Knockoff alert'''" text. Like...

::::*''[http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 '''Knockoff alert''': More information on packaged imitations of this toy at HighendTFs.com]''

:::Thoughts? This would ONLY cover stuff that is in packaging meant to deceive you by looking as real as they can get it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:05, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::::I could agree with that. This is a step beyond your standard knock off crap, some notice might be appropriate.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:44, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::::I think it is a good idea to have it, since it is useful. This is different from putting info of some KO or unlicensed products on the page. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:49, 19 December 2010 (EST)

== Extension:Oversight ==

Quite a few times I've seen admins delete and undelete pages to clean out bad revisions. Why they do this I have no idea, since we have [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Oversight the Oversight extension] installed.

Perhaps we should look into granting some people "oversighter" access? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 05:09, 25 December 2010 (EST)
:I've just noticed that deleting and then restoring pages in the manner mentioned above has the side effect of resetting a page's page views stats, so that's another point in favour of the Oversight extension. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:40, 11 January 2011 (EST)

== Wikipedia, revisited ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#The_.22Campaign_of_Deletion.22_against_the_Transformers_Wiki_Project_by_NotARealWord_and_TFWiki.net]

Just in case anyone's interested. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 10:54, 5 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log back in)
:NEWSFLASH: Nobody cares. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:21, 5 January 2011 (EST)

== Captcha to prevent spambots? ==

Is there any way we could implement captcha to account creation to prevent the spambot problem we're having now? I've seen other wikis use that measure. Maybe also disable new page creation by anons? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:56, 6 January 2011 (EST)
:We already have CAPTCHA implemented on the account creation service. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 13:09, 6 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log in)
::Never mind, then! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:30, 6 January 2011 (EST)

== Real world events by day Category ==

These of course comprise every date of the year. However, I notice recently people have been adding fictional events to these dates. That basically invalidates the Category, since it's no longer comprised of only real-world events. The fictional events should be moved out into another section, or the category name should be changed to "Events by day". Thoughts? --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:01, 9 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree with changing to "Events by day". I would also support having separate fictional and real world sections on the pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:38, 9 January 2011 (EST)

== Project Wonderful ads ==

Um, guys, I found there [http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/53018-1293943633.gif Non-official products] in the ads of CapturedPrey. I know the small ads are showing up randomly (and may not be controllable since we can't regulate them), but I think it is still need to be reported here. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 01:04, 16 January 2011 (EST)
: I don't mind them in the non-permanent ads. TFSource used them all the time in their ads before we made them permanent sponsors. It was only when we made them a permanent sponsor did we ask to make them free of third-party product. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:57, 16 January 2011 (EST)

== Games <strike>fiction</strike> ==

Okay, now that [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] has flooded the character pages with stubs for 30 years worth of crappy Transformers games, can we reconsider how the Games sections are treated? I really don't think in-universe fiction descriptions are the way to handle it. [[War for Cybertron]] may've had a plot, but the majority of TF games are more in the vein of "hit things until they stop coming". A fiction section makes even less sense for games where the character selection is variable. ''"[[Hardhead (G1)#Transformers:_The_Headmasters|Hardhead]] may (or may not) have been present at this battle. Or this one. Or this..."'' Ditto for generic drone soldiers. Isn't there a way to address the games without trying to craft a sensical fiction for them? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:46, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree. The games should appear as merchandise on all relevant characters pages, but there is no need for a fiction write up for most games on those same pages. A generic write up on the game page should suffice. Something like "An Autobot warrior participated in a battle...", with a character box listing all potential "Autobot warriors" (aka playable characters). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Moving games to merchandise sounds awful. It would result in amazing amounts of lost information. I have no idea what doing that would solve. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:44, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::I think it depends on the game - for example in the ROTF console game, while you CAN play as multiple characters, the game provides a suggested one for you. IMO, that's who "actually" did the stuff depicted in the game (and the opposing side's campaign generally suggests it as well). When you can just pick from a half-dozen dudes and it doesn't matter, then maybe a brief summary of the game's plot and a note. "Jerkwagon was one of many Autobots involved in blah blah plot synopsis bluh. NOTE: Such-and-such game allowed players to choose multiple protagonists, including Jerkwagon." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 13:19, 25 January 2011 (EST)
I agree that Games should be their own section -- there's certainly enough of them, and they should be treated differently than keychains and what-not. But I think an out-of-universe description of the games would be better in most cases. Instead of having to write vague text like ''"As Ultra Magnus searched for the truth behind Optimus Prime's death, he battled Trypticon in a game of death and suffering."'', which is about all the plot I could wrangle out of [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy|Convoy no Nazo]] and tells you virtually nothing, we could write something more informative, like ''"Trypticon is the boss of Stage 10."'', and describe what actually happens in the game instead of trying to make it sound like believable fiction. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:29, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::My personal view on the matter is, from a character's page, I should be able to find EVERY place that character has appeared. And when we do list guys having an appearance when they're most likely an animation error in the far-background of an episode, I don't think there's any excuse to NOT list an appearance of a character wherever he might appear, including board and video games. Is that a lot of work? Yeah. But beneath all the jokes that make this place so great, this is still an encyclopedia, and purposely leaving out information out of an encyclopedia is wrong. Though I think Hooper X has the right idea... I doesn't have to be the most super-extensive write up. Heck, I was even going to suggest just having a link saying "See Return of Convoy article" or something like that. Also: I apologize if I had started getting very sloppy last night, but looking back, it was like 5 in the morning by the time I finished up. Yikes. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:10, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::I totally agree that the games should be dealt with on the character pages. I'm just looking for an option other than a completely in-fiction description. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 15:14, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::: The first idea that comes to mind is having a subsection called "Gameplay" or something like that for each game write-up, something that would be similar to a note? Though really, my main solution for stuff like that has been, up to this point, to just stick a couple of notes in the game write-up, like on [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s page. I'll keep on trying to think up other solutions though... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:26, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::Storylinks already serve as that, so what's the point of another link? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:47, 25 January 2011 (EST)

== Fiction order guide? ==

I've been over the Style guides a few times trying to find if a page like this already exists, but it doesn't look like it. I'll be the first to admit that when adding in new fiction/game subsections to a character's article, I sometimes confuse and probably put them out of order. So I've been wondering if a page that lists every fictional work and game in the proper order of each other would be a good idea? On one hand, it seems like an ABSURD amount of work for a style guide, one that would have to be CONSTANTLY updated as new things come out. On the other hand, it would be very handy to have a list to reference for character pages. Especially because it can get VERY frustrating trying to hunt down which book/cartoon/whatever came first in the same year. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about, here's an example I quickly put together, using the [[Cheetor (BW)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]] pages as reference.

When listing a character's media appearances, use this sorting order:
*Fiction
**Generation 1 Marvel Comics continuity
**Generation 1 S.T.A.R.S. pack-in flyers
**Generation 1 cartoon continuity
**Generation 1 Kid Stuff Talking Story Books
**Generation 1 Big Looker Story Books
**Generation 1 Ladybird Books continuity
**''Transformers in 3-D''
**''Transformers PD Type'' comic
**''Comic Bom Bom G-2'' comic
**Beast Wars First wave toy bios
**Beast Wars Cartoon continuity
***Dawn of Future's Past
***''Beast Wars'' cartoon
***Fast Action Battlers toyline
***3H ''Tales from the Beast Wars'' comics
***IDW ''Beast Wars'' comics
***''Transformers Legends'' anthology
***''Beast Machines'' cartoon
***''Beast Machines'' toy bio
***''Universe'' comic
***''Beast Wars Metals'' comic
***Beast Wars ''Henkei! Henkei!'' pack-in comic
**Generation 1 Dreamwave comics continuity
**''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''
**''Transformers/G.I. Joe''
**Generation 1 IDW comics continuity
**''Hearts of Steel''
**''Music Label''
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' (pack-in comic)
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' Bun Bun manga
**Alternity
**''Robot Heroes'' comic
**''Universe'' cartoon
**Wings of Honor

Is this a good idea? Would anyone actually like to see this kind of thing, or would I just be putting a whole bunch of work into something we don't need? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:28, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:We do need standardization of section names. The section order, however, depends on order in which the character appeared in those continuities in the real world. Then the subsections are ordered by the fictional chronology. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:35, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::No wonder I get confused by this fiction order thing. @_@ I guess I might just be one of those people that will never get the hang of some of these things. And yeah, the section names was definitely something else I wanted to tackle, since I've seen at times no less than four different ways to refer to a certain media. I sometimes have to check the storylinks at the end to be sure it's all part of the same story! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:45, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Note that, within a continuity, flashbacks and time travel can mean that experiential fictional chronology for one character requires a different order of headings than for another. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:16, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::In regards to standardization, I have an idea. What if we create a list of headers (kept on this page perhaps) used on Optimus Prime (G1)'s page (probably has the greatest number of different headers), use that as our initial standards list, then update it as we find other headers or decide to change the existing standards? Once we think we've covered the majority of possibilities, we could move it to a help page and make it official policy. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:49, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::::I put together [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a sandbox along these lines]] a couple of years ago. It hasn't been updated in quite a while, and I'm not sure it was ever actually complete, and it was the subject of [[User_talk:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a bit of debate]]... but there it is, for what it's worth. (Also, I support standardization of headers, but I've run into [[Talk:Ricochet_(Headmasters)#Header|some]] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive22#Section_naming_conventions|opposition]] over the nitty-gritty before, so best of luck.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 06:11, 8 February 2011 (EST)

== Foreign name reorganization ==

Is there any chance we could consider moving the foreign names somewhere else in the article other than at the top? We've already established a new standard for episodes, but characters could stand to have their names moved to their own dedicated section, likely under "Notes". There, we could add things like kana and Cyrillic forms of names not different from the English version. Opinions? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 4 February 2011 (EST)
:I'm in favor of it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:33, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::All things considered, since this is (mostly) an english-centric wiki when it comes to stuff, the foreign names do come off as being interesting trivia more than anything else. I'm in favour of this too. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:37, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I'm fine with where they are now, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:39, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I can see the logic in them being moved down to notes. You've got an in-universe profile, then a bunch of out-of-universe names, then the in-universe fiction section. The only argument I have against it is that I'm used to seeing the foreign names at the top. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:05, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::If it can be moved downward (to the first entry of the notes section or a new section after the notes section) instead of being on the top, MOVE it. Originally, I'm fine withe where they are {{m-}} but that would be a character with fewer foreign names. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 19:55, 4 February 2011 (EST)
Any further opinions on this? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:36, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:What about cases where some of the extra names at the top are English, e.g. Omni Productions names, or preliminary or nicknames? Would they remain at the top or become notes too? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:29, 21 February 2011 (EST)
::The Malay dub still technically counts as foreign in my mind. Nicknames should be integrated in the introduction (or notes section), and preliminary names should have been in notes in the first place, since they aren't the characters' "real names" in any sense. Further elaboration of the preliminary names better suits the notes section, anyway. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:43, 21 February 2011 (EST)
Japanese names are often for a character in a slightly different continuity. Like "Fire Convoy" is a Car Robots character and "Optimus Prime" is an RID character, but they share the same page. Or "Flame Convoy" is a Galaxy Force character but "Scourge" is a Cybertron character. In that case they should have the Japanese name up top. The names that are just different language versions of the English character can go on bottom. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:18, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:... no. ''Cybertron'' and ''Galaxy Force'' are NOT different stories (Takara officially put GF back in the same timeline as the prior two series), and the ''RID/CR'' split is a unique case. In neither case should the names go up top. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:44, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::They are slightly different continuities. Galaxy Force doesn't have the [[Omega Frequency]] for example. And the Grand Black Hole is different. And the [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity]] is different. [[Blaster (G1)|Broadcast]] never became Twincast in English. I think Japanese names are a special case and deserve to be on top since Japanese toyline & fiction continuity is always slightly separate. But I can hit the "end" key on the keyboard easy enough. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::Every single foreign language version of something is technically a slightly different continuity, strictly due to the nature of translation. This is not a arena in which Galaxy Force is unique. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== Commercial Appearances section ==

Alright, so I plan later on to start going through characters' pages and add in a "Commercial Appearances" section where it applies (sorry, I can't this weekend... homework to do!). Several characters already have this section and a lot of these commercials have nice short animations or other interesting characterizations and tidbits that I think they bear to be included in the characters' pages. Although, much like the Games sections, I'll only be able to marginally help by adding in the section itself to let people know that there's work to be done on a character's page... MY computer is so incredibly shitty that I can't even play videos off youtube. D:

But anyways, the reason I'm bringing this up here is because before I get started, I'd like to discuss what kind of format we want for this section, so it can be done right the first time around. Obviously, where it applies, stuff like indicating who the voice actor for the character makes sense, but should the write-up be in-universe or not? Since commercials fluctuate between using a short animation telling a mini-story and just being a straight-up commercial saying "buy this toy!" should a combination of both in-universe and out-of-universe description be used? And should we count the parts where the kids brandish their action figures and talk for the character as dialog spoken by the character? That's all the questions on the subject I can really think of for now... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:12, 6 February 2011 (EST)
:I would write up the animation segments in-universe so long as they're unique to the commercial (i.e. not just recycled footage from one of the cartoons). Anything else that's notable enough could qualify for an out of universe note. But I wouldn't bother with recycled animation or the kids talking for the figures. That doesn't qualify as fiction to me.
:In regards to your inability to view the commercials, would it help if you could download them in some fashion and then watch them offline? Maybe burn the videos to a DVD disc? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:43, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, any clips taken from pre-existing mediums would be redundant from those scenes being already covered in other sections on that character's page. Personally though, I'm still on the fence about the kids talking for the figures... I find it comparable to botcon script readings in a way... People just talking out loud for a character without any accompanying animation... I'm prone to be swayed either way. As for me viewing the commercials themselves, my spring break is a week from now. I might have access to a better computer then, but otherwise I'll just be putting in information already available on the wiki to the appropriate pages throughout the week, I guess. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 17:53, 6 February 2011 (EST)

==How to resolve monster debates?==
[[User:-Blackout-]]'s recent meltdown over being prevented from editing [[Goldbug (IDW)]] has made me think again about how policy/content discussions tend to go on this wiki. It's a big part of why I haven't been around since last summer: I found myself perpetuating these miles-long debates that few cared to read, everyone was irritated by, and most importantly ''were impossible to resolve.''

That Goldbug article is a sterling example. Right now, people are talking about it as if the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1|giant]] [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2|debate]] had resolved in favor of the current setup, so changing the article at this point is taboo because it "was dealt with already." But that's not how it went at all. Blackout's dickishly unilateral edit-war was definitely the Wrong Way to reopen this, but it's also wrong to pretend that we had achieved consensus or closure on the issue.

At [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2#Breaking down the problem|the end of the debate]], I had restated the case for [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Goldbug (G1)|my "Goldbug (G1)" sandbox]], which is definitely different from the current setup, and 6 other people declared support for it while 2 objected at length. But the objectors were also against the current setup: Jeysie wanted the toy gone, and Derik wanted... something inscrutable and Deriky. Combining those numbers with the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1#Vote Tally|premature vote]] that had been taken earlier (and adjusting for the voters who changed their minds by the end), I count:

Sandbox: 8 
Sandbox with modifications: 3 
Current page: 7 
Current page without the toy: 2

That's not consensus. That's deadlock. In fact, there were fewer votes to keep the page as-is than there were to change it in some fashion. The current setup didn't win out in terms of votes, logic, precedent, or any other measure: It won out because it was what happened to be there when the debate died of exhaustion.

So we're stuck with an awkward page that most people want to be different, encased in concrete forevermore. I don't see any way out of this situation, and I've watched the same principle play out with other debates too many times. At the very least, I wonder if it would be helpful to have a Template:Deadlock that we could slap on inconclusive debates (with a picture of [[Drift (G1)|Deadlock]], natch) so people know the true state of things.

Taking that idea further, maybe it could come with a period of enforced moratorium – say, two weeks – followed by a revote and/or a formalized "final statements" opportunity? The most extreme option I can think of is to create a "council of elders" that has the community-bestowed power to resolve intractable debates and declare relevant policy principles. Basically, a Supreme Court. I do worry that creating an authoritative heirarchy might produce even more problems, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:20, 9 February 2011 (EST)
: This whole argument goes to the heart of what we mean when we say two characters are "the same". The Bumblebee toy was produced and fiction was made to promote that toy, thus all of those fictions (which differ from each other) are about "the same" character. The Goldbug toy was produced with a tech spec that stated that it was "the same" character as Bumblebee. Fiction was produced to promote that toy, thus all those varying depictions of Goldbug are "the same" character as Bumblebee. The same argument applies to the differing backstories of Optimus Prime; Orion Pax and Optronix are "the same" character because they both are earlier forms of the character that was used to promote the sale of the Optimus Prime toy. The problem comes in with later stories that are not produced to promote those original toys. How do we decide what is the same? When is a character "the same character under different circumstances/in a different universe" and when is it simply an homage character? I really can't see how others see the IDW Goldbug as "the same" character as the original toy and not (as I see him) as a simple homage character. Under their viewpoint the toy belongs, under mine it doesn't. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:15, 10 February 2011 (EST)

: I NOMINATE MYSELF AS FINAL ARBITER AND SUPREME OVERLORD. all decisions will be made based on what amuses me the most. (seriously, we probably ought to have some kind of "no consensus" tag for articles like that.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:58, 10 February 2011 (EST)

Mmm...probably best not to restart the Goldbug debate itself here, Khajidha -- that would quickly distract from what Jackpot's actually asking here, which is how debates should be resolved ''in general''.

Some of the basic rules we already follow should remain. No "edit-warring"...leave it up to the Talk Pages to hash out the problem. I don't think a mere two weeks is enough to give people time to change their minds, though, especially in this crowd. One thing I notice is that despite dozens of regular contributors and hundreds overall, most Talk Page or Community Portal votes I've seen have less than 20 votes at the end. Many of these debates fly right under the radar. I'm relatively active here, but the Goldbug (IDW) chaos completely passed me by.

What about, when a Talk Page debate has clearly reached an impasse between <strike>obstinant</strike> strong-willed parties, a Vote is taken on the ''Main Page''? Some sort of easy-to-see box temporarily added to the Main Page, "above the fold" so that its visible to all visitors when they enter? It would be more noticeable than if the vote is hidden away on a single Talk Page people may or may not see. Something like ''"A [[Deadlock]] has arisen! Choose from the following choices: Should [[Goldbug (IDW)]] have the G1 toy on his page? Yes or No? (See the Goldbug (IDW) Talk Page for the full debate.)"''

I realize many debates won't be as simple as Yes or No, but if the debating parties agree in advance how to phrase the Voting Box, it could be a useful tool. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 13:07, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:Yeah, wasn't really trying to restart that debate. Was bringing up questions about general character debates, as they seem to occur quite often. But other debates also bog down, so I recognize that my questions don't apply to those debates.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:35, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:I like the idea of keeping a debate in the regulars' faces until a decision has been reached by enough people (at least 20? 25?). Many debates I keep away from because I think they'll disappear anyway and my vote doesn't really matter <s>and I also can't deal all that well with the aggressive nature of most debates, making it actively a lose-only situation if I'd enter</s>. I'm not sure if others feel that way, but I imagine this would be a boost for all to participate. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::I absolutely disagree with the premise that people who don't care enough to read the argument should have it shoved in their face until they vote. AT MOST, we should mention it somewhere prominent, like the community portal. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:53, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:::I agree that essentially putting a ballot on the front page is asking for trouble. You might get the dozens of votes you're looking for, but they'll all be uninformed gut reactions. One of the reasons these debates happen is that issues can be much more complicated and subtle than they seem at first glance. Plus one would hope that the reasoning behind the winning option would help develop our policies, but if the decisions are made by the majority of an explicitly uninformed mob, it's hard to glean any substantial precedent out of that.
:::But I think an approach like that ''could'' be combined with my "final statements" suggestion. Thinking out loud here: After a cooling-off period has been declared and a set amount of time has passed, anyone who wants to present a case can write up a defense of his or her preferred option. Those are all submitted to a neutral volunteer, who then posts them simultaneously on the relevant Talk page, and those become the voting choices. No replies are allowed, only votes. We put a notice up at least on the Community Portal, possibly on the Main Page, for another set time period, then close voting and go with the majority.
:::How does that sound? Like I said, thinking out loud, so suggestions are more than welcome.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:18, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::::Sounds pretty good to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:19, 11 February 2011 (EST)

==How featured articles are chosen==
On a side note, would a box like that also be useful to start a voting system for featured pages? Because I'm fine with Drift and Wreck-Gar and all others before, but I am absolutely clueless as to who chose them to become featured for what reasons. I'd like to see a better system for that. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: If there was a recently-completed article that's of respectable length, I choose it. The pool for featured articles is pretty damn small. Not many articles are finished, and the ones that are finished have usually already been Featured Articles already. Finished articles don't happen very frequently, so sometimes we find one that's close to completion near the end of a month and then push to finish it before the month is over. Sometimes we think a subject or a character is timely (like around BotCon, or before an episode or movie premiere) and push for that. If you want a heads up, Chris McFeely's [[Matrix of Leadership]] article is so totally March's. (I think Chris has the record for number of articles he's completed which have become featured.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:31, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: Long story short, if you want an article to be featured, finish it. That means photos for every toy and known merchandise, and storylinks (with summaries) to every piece of fiction they've appeared in. Behind the scenes information helps. The longer and more involved the article, the more appealing it is. Meaning, finishing an article for a Mini-Con who showed up in the background somewhere, or finishing an article for someone who doesn't have any illutrated appearances... these are probably not going to be featured. But people like Perceptor (G1) or Side Burn (RID) or High Wire (Armada) have enough about them to say to make an interesting featured article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:36, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: "Long story short," my ass. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:37, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:: Have we done any episodes as Featured yet? I know the over-arching "Target 2006" article was chosen once. You'd think we could get, say [[Code of Hero]] up to that standard pretty quickly. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 07:42, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::I really think we need to get [[BotCon]] up to that standard. We're pretty close! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]] is a Featured article about an episode. [[User:Excise|Excise]] 00:00, 16 February 2011 (EST)

== Letterers ==
On images of comic pages, do we credit the ''letterers'' by placing the image in an "Image by Letterer Name" category? We've got a few contradictory examples around. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:32, 12 February 2011 (EST)
:Okay, three options: For images currently in categories like "Images by Mike Scott" (where Mike Scott is a letterer), we can:
:# Create the category and treat letterers just like artists, inkers, and colorists.
:# Instead place them in a "Images ''lettered'' by Mike Scott" category.
:# Remove the category, and not attempt to categorize images by letterer.
:I'm probably going to go with option 3 barring dissent. [[User:JW|JW]] 17:25, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I added galleries to a few of the pages for letterers (eg [[Bill Oakley]], [[Peri Godbold]]) on the basis that lettering can make or [[:Image:Cryotekmrrghmraghmrugghagh.jpg|break]] a comic. As well as adding the text, the letterer has to pick where the balloons will go and place, them, so they do have a large degree of control over how the comic turns out. That said, I don't know that we need to categorise images by letterer. The original intention was [[:Category talk:Images by artist|not to]], but it looks like we ended up doing it anyway, and at least one template is set up to put images into category by letterer. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I'd vote for option 3 as well.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:02, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I'm leaning towards option 3 myself. My reasoning is that even though letterers can have a large effect on a comic, I don't see too many people wanting to find every image lettered by a given letterer. The galleries, on the other hand, are useful for demonstrating the quality of an individual's work. So those should be used. While the obsessive in me thinks we should categorize images by every applicable characteristic, it's not realistic. I don't think it benefits us enough to go through all that work for categories that only a few people might find useful. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:09, 17 February 2011 (EST)
'Kay, I'm going to go with option 3. This may involve editing a template or two. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:35, 17 February 2011 (EST)

== Categories by toy size class? ==
Do we ''want'' the following categories?
 Leader class toy images
 Deluxe class toy images
 Voyager class toy images
 Scout class toy images
 They currently have a very few things in them (and could obviously have many more), but the cat' pages themselves have not been created. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:43, 12 February 2011 (EST)

:No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:13, 12 February 2011 (EST)

::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:06, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:::As long as it's only the images and not the articles, I couldn't care less. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:09, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:There's also a "Legends class toy images" category which has 90 images in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:21, 15 February 2011 (EST)

::Legends are kind of an exception because they're a different scale/play pattern, as evidenced by the upcoming Cyberverse stuff. Scouts-on-up are ''generally'' meant to intermingle, Legends aren't. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:41, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I could go either way on this one. It's a lot of work to fill these categories out, but the ability to find all the Deluxe figures easily intrigues me. If we did institute this I would also think that this would be the proper place to put the "exclusive figure" categories and such. Basically, any category that pertains to a particular toy and not to the character could be tagged to the image of that toy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 23:08, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:I've been doing them because I saw other people do them. I don't mind either way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:51, 16 February 2011 (EST)
So, counting me as "no", that's three "no"s, an "I don't care", an "I don't mind either way", and an "either way/intrigues me". I think we're leaning toward "no". Final comments? [[User:JW|JW]] 07:08, 16 February 2011 (EST)

::I guess it's "no" or at least "not the time"? (Though I'm "I'm not sure".) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 11:21, 16 February 2011 (EST)
:::I've gone with "no", and added a note to that effect to [[Transformers_Wiki:Images]]. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:27, 16 February 2011 (EST)

Ha ha, none of the no's have actually said why they've said no. Such super debating skills that. [[Special:Contributions/213.105.226.130|213.105.226.130]] 17:44, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Undo Redone? ==

I just undid an edit, but instead of getting the automatic "Reverting edit ##### by User1 to last version by User2" summary, that box was blank. In addition, above the edit window were the captions "Current revision" and "Your text", side by side, as if there's meant to be one editable text window under each. Instead, there was only one such text window beneath them, stretching across under both captions. The page is protected so only registered users can edit it, so that MIGHT have something to do with the problem, though I doubt it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:28, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:It doesn't automatically create an edit summary if you're doing an undo on multiple revisions, so that might be it. Not sure about the other part - it's always shown me a diff at the top of the screen when I've done an undo. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:54, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::Okay, blank edit summary's explained, because it was indeed a group of 3-4 edits being undone all at once. Still inexplicable is the fact that I just checked the page history; it didn't even accept my Undo! LoneGamer78 ended up doing it instead. I've noticed some sluggish response from the site over the past fifteen minutes or so, perhaps whatever caused that was a factor? It may never be known...--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:02, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::Is it possible she just beat you to it by a few moments and thus there was an edit conflict? I've had that happen sometimes, and so there's no diff shown because now the page already matches what you were going to change it to. (Uh, does that make sense?) --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 22:17, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::::Can't rule it out entirely, but edit conflicts usually announce themselves as such, and they DO have two distinct editable text windows: one showing the text as it stands after someone edited while you were typing, the other as it would have been if you'd edited without interference.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:24, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::::A few times I've "undone" an edit, but someone else beat me to it. It doesn't seem to show an edit conflict if that happens, probably because the change is identical to the previous one. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:06, 19 February 2011 (EST)

== Banner ad question. ==
The small side box ad (the one that's still a free-floater) currently has an ad for some webcomic. Which is fine, but one of the panels has GIANT ERECT LADY NIPPLES ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm not offended by it, but it's, uh, something. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 06:39, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:Ah, yeah. That'd be because it's an NSFW comic called DarkBrain which is read aloud by "adult film star Tabitha Stevens." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:50, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:: If people don't like it, I can yank it. I didn't think its THO was that objectionable, apparently, when I okayed it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:27, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== help ==

I cant find the latest talk please help([[User:Manmcmanman|Manmcmanman]] 15:44, 21 February 2011 (EST))
:What do you mean by the latest talk? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 15:54, 21 February 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen Online Games ==

So, I figured I might as well finish up the online game write-ups for Revenge of the Fallen online games, in case they go offline once Dark of the Moon comes out. But, hot damn, do I ever suck. Which means I'm not very likely to get pics of later levels in some of these games. I'll be trying to add in whatever I can to these sections, but some help would be much appreciated! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:I can have a go at getting some screencaps tonight if no one else does. Which games in particular? I noticed some of them are already gone a couple of weeks ago, as Hasbro has redirected most of the monkeybar site they were on to the Hub site, which doesn't have them. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::Well, personally I'm having difficulty getting pics of every character's sprite from Battle for the Matrix. I'm currently working on The RPMs Devastator game. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 18:41, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::I got caps of everyone except the Fallen, haven't uploaded them yet though. I couldn't get the [[flying drone]]s to transform either. They just seem to fly around wildly in robot mode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::Dang! The Fallen is the only one I can't get to either! And yeah, the flying drones are near-impossible to get a screencap of. I got a couple mid-transformation, but that's it. If any of your pics are better than mine, feel free to replace them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:55, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::::I went and got pics from Flight of the Bumblebee and Allspark Highway. Unfortunately I can't get pics of Ratchet from the later since robovision isn't up anymore! Darn! I'll upload them later. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:45, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I grabbed a screenshot of The Fallen finally. Man, that game is a memory hog. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:38, 25 February 2011 (EST)

== Countdown? ==

Sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a while back ago, there was a countdown to ROTF on the Main Page. Perhaps a countdown to DOTM would now be appropriate as it's so close?

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to program/insert/design/<insert verb here> a countdown on a wiki page (it's for another wiki). What template or whatever does that use? I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me.

Again, terribly sorry if this is the wrong place to say this...
 - [[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:02 PM, 22 February 2011 A.D.
:Dark of the Moon countdown based on Derik's ROTF code: {{#expr: ({{ #time: U |July 1, 2011}} - {{ #time: U }})/86400 round 0}} days until [[Dark of the Moon (film)|TF: Dark of the Moon]]! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (EST)

==When to omit "Transformers" from an article title==
So I got a hankering to remove the "Transformers" from [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and all of their related pages, since unlike [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]], there's just no good reason to break policy for them. There are [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|other video games that we drop the "TF" from]], and if "Prime" is too common a term, then what about "[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]" or "[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]"?

But then I decided to check out [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?ns0=1&search=Transformers&searchx=Search&limit=500 which pages use "Transformers" in their titles,] and holyyyyyyyy crap. I copy-pasted here all the ones I found that I thought could lose the "Transformers" without negating their meaning, destroying a phrase, or otherwise severely damaging the title. (I added an "(etc.)" to each one that represents a series of identically-worded pages):

[[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Animated (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)]] 
[[1-2-3 Transformers]] 
[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Legends]] 
[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: The Headmasters (video game)]] 
[[The Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Energon Within]] 
[[The Transformers Collection]] 
[[Transformers Quest]] 
[[Transformers Key Recovery: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Power Up: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed]] 
[[Transformers PD Type]] 
[[Transformers: The Animated Movie]] 
[[Transformers Generations]] 
[[Transformers: Rise of the Chevy Autobots]] 
[[Transformers Annual 1990]] (etc.) 
[[The Transformers Sticker Book (1986)]] 
[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)]] 
[[Transformers: The Junior Novel]] 
[[Look and Find Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Coloring and Activity Book and Crayons]] 
[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers: Learn to Count Activity Tablet]] 
[[Transformers The Reusable Sticker Book]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Storybook]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Guide]] 
[[Transformers Prime Time]] 
[[Transformers Mix & Match]] 
[[Transformers Comic issue 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers The Game (console)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Autobots/Decepticons]] 
[[Transformers History of Music 1984-1990]] 
[[Transformers: Mosaic]] 
[[Transformers Name Generator]] 
[[Transformers Battle Universe]] 
[[The Transformers: Binaltech & TF Collection Complete Guide]] 
[[The Transformers Comic Magazine]] 
[[Transformers Pop-Up Book]] 
[[Transformers Visualworks]] 
[[Transformers Tooth Tunes]] 
[[Transformers Tapestry]] 
[[Transformers Song Universe]] 
[[Transformers G1: Awakening]] 
[[Transformers Armada Annual 2004]] 
[[Transformers: Beginnings]] 
[[Transformers the Movie water]] 
[[Transformers: The Score]] 
[[Transformers: The Thirteen]] 
[[Transformers: War Within Omnibus]] 
[[Transformers: The Ride]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Mutating Card Game]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Jigsaw Puzzle]] 
[[Transformers: Kōtetsu no Yūki]] 
[[The Transformers Continuum: The Definitive Chronology]] 
[[The Transformers: Bumblebee]] 
[[Transformers Adventures]] (etc.) 
[[Top Trumps: Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Race for the Mini-Con Robots]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Battle Begins]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Secret of the Star Saber]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Autobots Strike Back]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 1]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 2]] 
[[Transformers Theme Song Collection]] 
[[The Transformers: Drift]] 
[[Transformers Revenge of the Fallen Annual 2010]] 
[[Transformers CyberToy]] 
[[Transformers Hall of Fame]] 
[[The Transformers: Ironhide]] 
[[Transformers Evo.]] 
[[The Transformers Legends of the Microns: Sound of Evolution Vol. 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Music Matrix]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide: Revenge]] 
[[Transformers: Battle for the Matrix]] 
[[Transformers: Coloring and Activity Book and Stickers]] 
[[Transformers: Activity Book and Gel Pen]] 
[[Transformers: Sector 7]] 
[[Transformers: Cybertron Adventures]] 
[[Transformers Cards]] 
[[Transformers RPMs: Devastator's Demise]] 
[[Cadbury's Transformers Card Game]] 
[[Ridiculous Legend Transformers]] 
[[Famicom How-to Manga: Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Transformers Caramel]] 
[[Transformers Comic-Magazin]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Extra Comic-Sonderheft]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Super-Auswahlband]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Energon Valentine's cards]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 1]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 2]]

For many of them, the choice to keep or drop the "TF" seems intuitive, and many others are in a grey area... but I'll be damned if I can put into words any kind of coherent rationale. I'm seriously thinking that we've outgrown the "drop extraneous 'TF's" rule. Back when we only had a few hundred pages, it made a certain kind of sense: Why bother writing out stuff like "Transformers: Generation 2" when just "Generation 2" is equally meaningful to everyone here? Besides, isn't every page about Transformers by default? But in the past five years, both the wiki and the subject matter have exploded, and with both so many fine-grain, obscure topics being covered and so much not-strictly-TF content we've added, I don't think the policy serves us anymore. It doesn't make things simple; it makes things arbitrary and unpredictable.

So unless someone can sum up our policy in a way that makes a lick of sense, I propose: '''If a topic has an official title, then that should be used in full as the title of the relevant articles.''' Period. So [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] would stay right where they are, and yes, [[Generation 2 (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)", [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)", etc. I don't think we'd need to make that change happen instantly, but we could slowly propagate it as people feel inclined to. I also think we can keep the parenthetical abbreviations and in-sentence references as short as they currently are; this is only about the titles.

Thoughts?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:What are these "Transformers"? -[[Special:Contributions/75.185.113.106|75.185.113.106]] 18:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I've always been for having the full name as article titles. (Maybe also drop the "(franchise)" disambigs, because durr, but that's other topic.) Not only do we keep the full name of the subject, it aids us in disambiguation (it's easier to have smaller sets of "Transformers: Cybertron" and "Cybertron" than a large set of just "Cybertron"). [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::I don't have an opinion on adding or removing "Transformers:" from articles (other than that adding it would perhaps make articles and reading unnecessarily longer - right now, I hate having to type out "Transformers Animated" before "The AllSpark Almanac"), but I do oppose removing (franchise). If there's one thing I hate, it's when there's one 'most important' page that goes undisamb'ed (like Spark) and you'll have to go through a lot of trouble to ensure it all is meant to link there. When I cleaned up the Lithone links for planet and species, nearly every single one link directed the wrong way. Same for D-HQ, AllSpark vs Allspark, Junkion, Black Friday, etc. So, keep (franchise). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:49, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I too think "Transformers: " should be kept as well as " (franchise)". --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:46, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::I don't mind losing Transformers when it the prefix in a title that's the form of Transformers: <subtitle>, as in that case the subtitle itself is more the actual official name and "Transformers" is just tacked on as an extra identifier.

::::But in some of those things, Transformers is, well, a vital part of the thing's actual name. I mean, for instance, the Club's full official name ''is'' "Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club", so removing "Transformers" from it would be incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 03:00, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I don't think that distinction is clear enough to be workable anymore. Looking at that list, tons of them I have no idea which side of the divide they'd fall on. For instance, "[[Transformers Legends]]" is the proper title of the book; that's how it would be listed in any store or library, but for ''our'' purposes the "TF" is as extraneous as the one that we omit from [[Energon (comic)]] or [[Dinobots Strike Back]]. The "for our purposes" thing is so often so questionable... like, what would that dictate for [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]? It's definitely a subtitle situation like you described, but there are lots of non-TF "Ultimate Guide"s published by the same company... but we would never cover them, so for our purposes is the "TF" still redundant?
:::::I agree with Geewunling that it would be annoying to have to type out longer titles (though readability should be unchanged, since I think we could still truncate in-sentence references). But right NOW it's annoying that our lack of a coherent policy is making everything increasingly unpredictable. We're seeing a lot of creep in the form of stuff like [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and for some reason video games. So I don't even know what should be "corrected" anymore or how to decide the matter when creating a new article.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 13:58, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::::The annoyance of editors doesn't really enter into my consideration; the wiki is ultimately for the readers, not our convenience. If we have to do some more work for the best presentation, so be it. —Interrobang, not logged in

:I'm OK with moving articles to put Transformers into the title so long as we don't delete the redirects. If we move "Revenge of the Fallen (film)" to "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)", there are going to be a whole bunch of sites linking to the old URL, and I don't wanna have a repeat of the "(Shattered Glass)" thing where all the redirects get deleted and a whole lot of other sites are pointing to useless error pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:25, 23 February 2011 (EST)

=="(WFC)" vs. "(Prime)"==
There are currently [[Talk:Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#"(WFC)" instead of "(Prime)" for characters that originated in this franchise?|two]] [[Talk:Optimus Prime (Prime)#Move|discussions]] going about whether articles on subjects that originated in ''War for Cybertron''-branded fiction (the [[War for Cybertron games|games]], [[Exodus: The Official History of the War for Cybertron|novel]], and [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|comic]]) should be titled "(WFC)" rather than "(Prime)". It was suggested that this should be brought up in the Community Portal, so here it is.

For the record, looking at [[War for Cybertron games#Featured Characters|this list]], right now we're using "(Prime)" for all named characters, even those currently exclusive to WfC, and "(WFC)" for all character ''types'' from the games. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the state of things.

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:46, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I completely agree with Jackpot. It is stupid we have an article called [[Ultra Magnus (Prime)]] stating "Ultra Magnus is an Autobot Wrecker from the WFC portion of the Aligned family continuity". I blame myself for not doing this a lot earlier, treating the WFC navbox as like a subsection of Prime when the novel was so clearly a tie-in to those games. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 18:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::WFC is a tie-in game. As I pointed out, how many Mini-Cons from the PS2 Transformers game use the disambiguator "(Transformers)"? And even then, what of novel-original characters? Do they get "(Exodus)"? And heck, didn't Exodus come out ''before'' WFC? Shouldn't the characters thusly use "(Exodus)" over "(WFC)" or "(Prime)"? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::: The book and game came out on the same day, as I recall. So... yeah. I'm completely against this. We used "Prime" because that was the name we WERE using for the continuity family; frankly, I find this wishy-washy "aligned continuity family" thing pretty lame. The core of the damn family is the Prime cartoon. It is THE central feature, and will be THE major fictional outlet and -almost assuredly- what future non-show fictions will adhere more closely to. I don't see the point in all this subdividing and adding more parantheticals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:19, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::I find it ''extremely'' hard to believe that if Hasbro's "decade" plan goes through, ''Prime'' is the last franchise we're going to see spring from it. Even Aaron Archer thinks "Prime" is a bad name for the overall deal. Given what a fractured start it's already off to, I think separating out the "family" foundation is the only sensible thing to do. So that's why [[Aligned continuity family]] exists.
::::As for the "(WFC)" notion, I'm not as personally attached to that, even though I do think it's the correct thing to do. Mostly I think that WfC needs to be acknowledged as an entity unto itself, not just a subset of ''Prime''. Strictly from a branding point of view, it ISN'T a subset; nothing has been both WfC- and Prime-branded. It's not just the title of a video game; it's in the titles of [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|a comic]] and [[Exodus: The Official History of the War for Cybertron|a novel]], plus they've made [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#Toys|toys from it]] that definitely don't fit the ''Prime'' brand. (True, the toys aren't labeled "WfC", but that's par for the course with ''Generations'' anyway. At the very least, it's a grey area.) Beyond branding, it just has a unique aesthetic and sensibility that's very different from ''Prime''.
::::Based on all that, the best place WfC fits in our schema is as a "franchise", to my judgement. "''Prime'' tie-in" doesn't cut it.
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:55, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::WFC is not ''just'' a tie-in game. It has [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fcfb1b5-19b9-f369-10be-e91a2108d9ab online bios] and [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172 online timeline]. Hasbro made it its own thing. Franchise-like. Before any Prime show started we learned from the timeline that [[Megatron (Prime)|D-16]] was an Energon mine laborer and rose to prominence in secret gladiatorial combat and took the name "Megatron". So [[Megatron (Prime)]] had a whole history before the show even existed. The non-show characters with the (Prime) disambiguation also shows it doesn't quite fit. I'd go for WFC. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:35, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::AGAIN, Exodus came out the SAME DAY. So why does WFC get prominence? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:56, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::Because that's the phrase that's used in the names of [[War for Cybertron games|all]] [[Exodus: The Official History of the War for Cybertron|the]] [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|media]]. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:02, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I don't see how the subline "The official history of the war for Cybertron" is the exact same as "War For Cybertron: The Vidya Game". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:24, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::I agree. Aside from three (ambiguous) words on the book's front, there's not much that says it's part of the WFC "franchise". Same for Generations. If they wanted to, they could have made figures of every War for Cybertron character and released it in a toyline explicitly called "Transformers: War for Cybertron". But they didn't; they just released five toys based on WFC designs and released them under Generations, so Generations is a WFC toy line as much as it is a G1 one (actually, probably more of G1 considering how very few WFC toys there were). The video games are only different because of hardware limitations, so having multiple games with the same title does not a franchise make. Having a website with bios and everything is a moot point, because almost every video game has that. The comic, I'll give you that one, but I don't think it's a franchise if it's a game and a tie-in comic with a limited release. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:30, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::For what it's worth, when you [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/movie-news/Transformers-War-for-Cybertron.cfm click on "War For Cybertron"] it brings up all the Generations toys. I also think the WFC timeline ties in Exodus to WFC since the events in the comic and timeline are basically from the book. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::It also brings up PCC Icepick (item 12 of 12, on page 2). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:52, 28 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::The WfC-branded timeline and comic both cover events in ''Exodus''. Hell, the comic was written by the same dude. I don't understand the logic that says that the "War for Cybertron" in the novel's title doesn't mean the same thing. If there were a novel called "Deuteronomy: The Official History of the Beast Wars" set during the events of the cartoon, I wouldn't be trying to say it was part of the ''Beast Machines'' franchise.
::::::::Let me put in a slightly different light: Because franchises are branding-based, not continuity-based, I'm not comfortable with the ''Prime'' franchise being stretched to include all this stuff that doesn't have the ''Prime'' label on it. Yes, it's clearly all RELATED, story-wise, but that's what [[Aligned continuity family|continuity pages]] are for. This feels like taking ''Machine Wars'' (which is the opposite kind of sparse: a toyline with virtually no fiction) and rolling it into G2. Sure, they're in the same family, and there are connections between the two, but they're not marketed with the same label, so we don't do it. Before ''Prime'' existed, there were these other forms of media sharing a unique title (that even got the TF-logo lockup treatment!) and covering common ground. Then ''Prime'' showed up, and so far the two labels have not been seen on the same product. To me, that means two franchises.
::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::But... there is no overarching label on the products we have poked into the WFC "Franchise". "Transformers: War for Cybertron" has its own logo which is also on the tie-in comic, and Exodus has its own logo. They're still prequels to TF:Prime. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:33, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::::I guess I just see the "War for Cybertron" in the title of ''Exodus'' as having more meaning than you do. Yeah, Hasbro could've been more blatant if they'd wanted to, but it's still clearly telling the reader it's part of the same deal as the WfC games and comic, without making any reference to ''Prime'' (or vice-versa). I can imagine a situation where the ''Prime'' branding might retroactively subsume WfC, like how the "Wreckers" comic was given the ''Universe'' brand (they say there's another game coming out, after all). But that hasn't happened yet, so in the meantime I say WfC doesn't belong under the ''Prime'' franchise.
::::::::::Anyway, at this point if we don't see eye-to-eye, we probably won't, so I'm going to shut up now.
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:What about the next thing after ''Prime'' that is in the Modern/Aligned continuity? We would have a new disambiguation, like, "Spike (Next Franchise)." and characters that have never been in Prime, like "Ultra Magnus (Prime)." Kind of confusing. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::No it isn't. The idea that WFC/Exodus are part of a big wad of continuity colloquially known as "Prime", and referred to as "Prime" because the "Prime" cartoon is THE core of the whole shebang, and will liekly BE said core for the near future, is not a hard one. It only gets confusing when you start letting obfuscating pedantry in, at which point you're only making more work for no payoff and making things harder for our readers. A trend which seems to keep coming up over and over again, I've noticed... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:09, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::I'm pretty sure I've had my share of "obfuscating pedantry" moments, but I completely agree with Siph on this one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:18, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::For the record, if people really think that using "(WFC)" would be confounding to readers, that's not a decision I'm very invested in. This discussion has ballooned into bigger issues that I ''do'' feel more strongly about, but the parenthetical itself is very take-it-or-leave-it for me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I would at the least support migrating characters who have thus far ''only'' appeared in WFC to the appropriate parenthetical.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:55, 1 March 2011 (EST)
:And move them back if they appear in Prime? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 11:03, 1 March 2011 (EST)
::Yes. I think that would make the most sense to people looking for the characters.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::I am willing to make this compromise for the time being. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 14:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)

==War For Cybertron==
War for cybertron is a relativley new game, but it is a great one. I am kind of new on this website, but to me, it looks like the War For Cybertron title has gotten mixed up with Transformers: Prime, a completley diffrent universe. also, WFC is G1 Canon. All the WFC pages and articles should be labled on G1, MAJOR cleanup is needed. {{unsigned|Holymoses|06:30, March 3, 2011 (EST)}}
:You clearly ''are'' quite new, because we would advise you to read [[Aligned continuity family|this article]] before you start in on this notion. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 06:33, 3 March 2011 (EST)
:In Hasbro's own words: "The TRANSFORMERS brand team would like to confirm that Transformers War for Cybertron video game, Transformers Exodus novel, and the Transformers Prime television show are in the same aligned continuity. Hasbro is creating a single continuity to tell the bulk of our TRANSFORMERS stories going forward." Here's the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/8189/20/ link] to the announcement --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 06:45, 3 March 2011 (EST)
::You aren't completely wrong. The game developers were heavily inspired by G1, and were pretty much making a G1 game as far as they knew. It's just that, like Khajidha said, Hasbro says War for Cybertron is part of the same continuity as Prime, so that's what the wiki goes with. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:00, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Well that still seems weird, since "Prime" has a completley diffrent story, and "Exodus" doesnt connect the two sagas very well. even if its what Hasbro said, i think we should put all this into consideration, Aaron Archer himself said that War for Cybertron was a game set in the G1 Universe. I think its wrong of Hasbro to try and connect the two diffrent Continuities. {{unsigned|Holymoses|09:12, March 4, 2011 (EST)}}
:First of all, when did Aaron Archer say that? Second, Hasbro gets to define what is in each continuity for the simple reason that it is their intellectual property. It may not be to your liking, but it cannot be wrong as they are the ones who determine what is right. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, gonna need a source on that Archer statement. Especially since he's been amongst the ones saying WFC/Exodus is part of the new continuity. Also, weren't a lot of elements in WFC, like Dark Energon, Hasbro mandates from a story bible they supplied the creators (hereby proving that Hasbro's intent was always for it to be part of the new continuity), or am I imagining things again? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:08, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::From what I read about that production bible, it is a result of guys at Hasbro sitting down and "[http://collider.com/roberto-orci-jeff-kline-interview-transformers-prime/75039/ coalescing all the mythologies] that they had institutionally for years. Actually putting it down to paper." It sounds like they were just collecting and not adding new stuff in. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Energon were added ''after'' it was in the game. And what about timing? Orci said Hasbro put together the bible after the movies came out (in mid 2009). The video game came out in mid 2010 with a video game lead time of ??? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::Unless Dark Energon is actually just the new name for Angolmois energy. The name may have been taken from the video game, but the concept could well have been in the production bible before WFC. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:37, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::What a load of supposition and crap. I hereby dub it "crapposition". I can pretty much say that you are completely wrong. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::::[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/05/interview-matt-tieger-of-high-moon-studios-on-transformers/ Matt Tieger said] that High Moon started working on WfC when they shipped their "Bourne" game, which according to the accompanying notes was mid-2008, between the first movie and RotF. [http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/interviewtransformerswarforcybertron2.html This interview] talks up the G1 inspiration and then says the WfC storyline is "a completely original story that we made up at High Moon. We worked closely with Hasbro..." The consistent impression I've gotten from several different interviews is that High Moon started from G1 and then made pitches to Hasbro, which Hasbro would provide feedback on, and eventually there was a game. The only people who I've seen actually talk about the 400-page story-bible are the ''Prime'' creators. And if Orci was being literal when he said the bible was put together "after the movie’s came out", then game development would've indeed started earlier. At the very least, it sounds pretty likely that there was some simultaneous creation.
:::::In the end, the chicken-and-egg question is basically moot because either way, WfC is part of the new deal. It doesn't matter who said the words "Dark Energon" first; it's part of the structure that binds all of the pieces, so that's that. But for nitpicking's sake, Starfield's suppositions aren't off-base from the evidence we have. Siph, if you have additional info that clarifies or contradicts any of that, please share.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::::I, similarly, have found it quite plausible when thinking on the subject to believe that High Moon could have created the idea of Dark Energon, and that Hasbro then said to themselves "We can use THAT!" and put it in the bible. It's certainly outside the realm of possibility, unless you know something we don't, Siph. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 05:24, 5 March 2011 (EST)

:Because nothing whatsoever can change in the millions of years between the WFC era and the Prime cartoon era. And yeah, good luck sourcing that Aaron claim. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
I think that if they were in the game or in Exodus:The Offical History of the War for Cybertron, they should be labled (WFC),but if they poped into the Prime teley-show or comics, they should be labled (Prime).-[ [User:DinoDigger97|DinoDigger97]] 2:11 3 Apil 2011

== Captured-Prey ads ==

One of the things advertised there appears to be a fan-made Megatron min-figure. Seeing as how everybody was upset that the TFSource ad [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive47#TFsource_ad_buy|featured fansproject stuff]], surely, this isn't right either? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 05:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)
:Check the section back up this page titled [[#Project_Wonderful_ads|Project Wonderful ads]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 8 March 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen video game character articles - [X] Scout 1, [X] Scout 2 pages for the same design ==

With the upcoming DOTM games, I thought I should look at the ROTF game articles that were abandoned in 2009 and see if I could do anything for them. I believe it was Derik who made this decision, but I am now wondering if it is necessary to have say [[Aerialbot Scout 1]] and [[Aerialbot Scout 2]], [[Omnibot Scout 1]] and [[Omnibot Scout 2]] (and so on) considering "Scout 1" and "Scout 2" are just the two different colour schemes for these mass produced generic, nameless characters who only differ in terms of textures. Any completed articles on these will have different images, but exactly the same information. Isn't that redundant? Should we perhaps just stick both of each under Aeriabot Scout, Omnibot Scout, Stunticon Scout? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:14, 11 March 2011 (EST)
:According to the articles the two Aerialbot Scouts have different health, primary weapon and secondary weapon ratings. Is that enough for separation? I don't know, but it should be considered before making a decision. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 11 March 2011 (EST)
::I don't even know where those stats came from - I don't believe the person who filled them in originally ever explained. Were they from a website, article or guide book? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:42, 11 March 2011 (EST)

== Found some much needed images, but... ==

I found them on [http://transformersiv.mforos.com/1519135/8979801-transformers-g1-aventuras-y-nostalgias-que-nunca-moriran/ this site], and I don't speak the language (I think it's Spanish) to ask for their permission to use them. The images are covers of the [[Marvel Books]] titles [[Battle at Oil Valley]], [[Summertime Coloring Book]], and [[Super Activity Book]]. That's right we don't even have an article for that last one. They also have page scans of these and other Marvel Books titles. I don't feel right just taking them for our use here and was wondering if someone who spoke the lingo would contact them for us. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 12 March 2011 (EST)
:Nevermind, Google Chrome finally remembered that it had translational abilities. The poster is offering them for download to all and sundry, so he/she can hardly care if we borrow them. I'll probably still insert a link to the main site out of courtesy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:22, 12 March 2011 (EST)
::After looking at them, I realized that they were Steve Stonebreaker's scans. I have contacted him and received permission to use them here. I'll be adding more soon. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 16 March 2011 (EDT)

== Hey, I've got a new user talk page template request... ==
[[Image:Rebirth1 Hardhead and Blurr.jpg|right|thumb|300px|TOO MANY QUOTES]]
Can we have one that reminds folks that every new thing in Transformers that even vaguely reminds you of an old thing in Transformers IS NOT A REFERENCE AND THAT IS NOT HOW REFERENCES WORK AND STOP PUTTING THEM IN THE "TRANSFORMERS REFERENCES" SECTION. Ahem. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:18, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:You mean like [[Template:notareference|this]]? --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:22, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
::Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:30, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:::Brilliant. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:39, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::That's an oldie, but a goodie. Personally, I'm wondering if there's any template that can be set up for the people that just drown episode articles in quotes... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:42, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::I think we'd first need a consensus on how many quotes are appropriate. [[User:JW|JW]] 07:41, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::It's a conversation that needs to be had, I think. You have to take length of the story into account - there are more quotes in a two hour movie than in a twenty five minute episode. I'd put the early cutoff at around five for episodes, though. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 08:00, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I like the idera of a mximum of 5 per 30 minutes (or part thereof) for Episodes & movies, but what would be a good size for comics? I'd say around 3 per issue, but it breaks down with short issues and back up stories (i.e.e most of the Marvel UK exclusive stuff...) [[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 10:19, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'd set a "soft" limit higher for 30-minute episodes {{m-}} around 10 quotes {{m-}} and I'd allow more than that if the episode was particularly well-written or quotable. I don't think there's any need for a low, hard limit, as I don't think lots of quotes hurt the wiki until we get into "quoting the whole darn episode" territory. Heck, in fact, I might favor a policy of ''judging each quote for itself.'' I.e., if a quote is good/noteworthy/illustrative/funny/wadeva, it can be kept, even if there are two dozen other quotes already. Each must stand on its merits, but there would be no hard cap. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yeah, some episodes happen to have a lot of funny/significant/memorable lines, others don't. If we set a hard cap, we might be damning ourselves to a lot of pointless fights over which quotes deserve to be included under the arbitrary limit. I'm more in favor of making a list of criteria that we can point to when we weed lame quotes out.
:::::::::Oh, and I support making a template. ''Prime'' Soundwave is the best character I can think of to use, but Movie Bumblebee or G1 Wreck-Gar would also be appropriate. Or a shot of G1 Soundwave with a tape inside of him? Can't think of a good header, though...
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 11:49, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::I mainly suggested it as a starting point because if it comes down to putting each quote in place based on "which one we like more" the talk pages are going to be absolutely horrible. HOW CAN YOU LEAVE OUT MY FAVORITE QUOTE IT IS SO FUNNY AND RELEVANT. The "5 per 30 minutes" is just a suggestion - obviously an episode that's really funny or poignant can get more. Comics issues we could maybe use pagecount as a starting point. But basically, combine the two ideas. A list of criteria is a good idea, but we also need to avoid having like, thirty quotes for a given story, twelve of which are totally shitty. If we get over five-six quotes, it's time to think about trimming, just because seriously, 90% of TF fiction isn't that goddamned quotable - or there are better places for the quotes. "I don't rock and roll - I burn!" belongs on Inferno's page, not on the episode it appeared in. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:51, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::Fair enough. Just so long as the number is sufficiently "soft" that we don't forget that our goal is high quality, not an arbitrarily low quantity. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:17, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Exactly. Like I said, I think we can also judiciously use key ''character'' quotes on the ''characters''' pages. Some quotes are very episode/story specific, while others provide insight into a character's personality or mindset. I think that's a good way to winnow the chaff, you know? -hx at work not logged in gotta run
::::::::::::::The 5-6 quotes before we start trimming sounds good, especially if some more individual character based quotes can be moved to the character pages. The big problem I keep seeing with quotes is that too many people want to quote an entire scene. If it goes beyond 3 lines it's probably not what we mean by quote here. And even 3 lines is pushing it. These should really be a single line quip or a two line set up and pay off. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:22, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::5 to 6 sounds like a good starting point to me as well. Khajidha makes a good point about the definition of quote. That, along with Hooks' point about using key character quotes on that character's article, should be pointed out on [[Help:Example episode article]], once it exists. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)

== Maybe a silly question, can we? ==

Ok, exposing my ignorance here, but isthere a way to search the wiki by alt-mode? If I wanted to know every TF that turns into a Helicopter say? There's not a "helicopter" catagory, so howwould I find them all? Thanks for any help.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:59, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]] covers some characters. There's been a few vague proposals to create a new hierarchy of categories for altmodes, but it would be a lot of work, and it's generally shouted down. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:08, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:I think the current best option if you want to do something like this is TFU.info's Identify section. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 11:00, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

==Grimlock letter==
[[Image:Grimlock letter.jpg|thumb|right]]
I recently acquired this and thought it's exactly the sort of thing we should be covering. I had no idea it even existed until a friend sent it to me and on that thought, should we add letters from Soundwave, Ratchet(?), Dreadwind and Blaster to the Holy Grails? Was there a similar response from the US comic, and do Titan still send these letters out today from Starscream? Enquiring minds want to know. Incidentally, he said he got Tailgate as his free mini-toy. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:31, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
:Good find. A letter from Grimlock is pretty awesome. That should go somewhere. The Letters Page page? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:58, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
::I've added a link from there; I'll type it up verbatim if we think it's justified? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:09, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

== Voice actors by series ==

We have a bunch of categories for voice actors by language, but I was wondering if we should have categories for voice actors by series? Would categories like "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Victory voice actors" be useful? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:27, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

:That could be useful. It'd be better than looking up cast lists and opening up every character page, at least. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:30, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

::Sound like a nice idea to me. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 10:01, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

== "Just Stop" Notice? ==

Do we think there's a role for the following proposed user notice template, for users like Eagc7?

{{messagebox|image_name=War_War_Stop_It.jpg|image_width=225px|width=90%|header=Just Stop|message_text=Please stop editing this wiki. While you haven't done anything ban-worthy (yet), you are not a productive contributor. (The reasons ''why'' are above this notice on your talk page.) So, please, '''just stop.'''}}

Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 14:39, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:If one is created, I love this image for it! --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 15:35, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::It seems a bit rude, but the image would be ''perfect'' if this is made. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 15:45, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:::If this gets phrased differently, I'd support it. Right now, the text's too rude. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:52, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::::I think it is meant to be rude and probably should be rude. This tag is designed to be placed on the talk pages of people who have seemingly ignored the multiple instances of other tags. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:57, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

I'm a little iffy on this proposal. I admit that Eagc7 has a very poor grasp of the English language, but I'm a little uncomfortable with telling a person to leave a site just because of that. If you look over his fiction edits (the ones you can read) the posts he has made are accurate, just...occasionally unreadable. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:02, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
:I'm with SFH. Eagc7's English seems to be all over the place, but there are times when he gets it more or less correctly and only needs minor typo fixes. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:21, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Whether a person's edits are bad enough (and bad enough all the time enough) to ask them to never post again seems like something that shouldn't be in the hands of, well, everybody. Putting a template up that says you're a bad speller or that you're not using Preview enough... that's pretty straight forward. But I dunno if I'm comfortable with giving us all a tool to shame each other off the wiki entirely. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:49, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:In addition, if someone's edits are so bad (and so consistently bad) that they're more of a nuisance than they are helpful, then that person should probably just be gotten rid of, instead of getting the Middle Finger Personified In A Template. As Detour said, yeah, Eagc7's English could use some work, but he does enough good here that I don't think he's completely poison or anything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
I could maybe get behind the idea of a "Stop editing until you've read the complaints on your user page" template for the blissfully unaware people constantly making edits that are being undone as soon as they make them whilst ignoring comments on their user page telling them what they're doing wrong. But a template like THIS, and this sort of behavior in general, is how we end up with trolls that come by and vandalize the wiki on a daily basis for years and years. We could avoid that sort of future headache by just not being all-out douchebags to people even if they're stupid and/or their contributions are annoying. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:15, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:I suppose the only problem with making a "read your talk page" template is that they'll never read it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:24, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::: I like this idea, too. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::Got me there. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:36, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:This will not go well. If someone's a real pest here, ban them. If they're being a pest but not quite that bad yet, notify them on their talkpage with whichever templates are already needed, and then if they don't clean up, ban them. We shouldn't be creating--publicly--an underclass of users. If you're allowed to have an account here, you're allowed to post--otherwise we look scummy. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 19:17, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::This is basically every stereotype of this wiki and its userbase given textbox form. I love it. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 20:33, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

The consensus seems to be against it, and the arguments are all good ones. (Kind of a pity, since the image was so perfect, but...) I withdraw the suggestion. Thanks all for weighing in! [[User:JW|JW]] 20:25, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:It is a good template despite the rudeness, but it is potentially necessary for extreme conditions as a last resort. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Is it possible that we could reuse that image for another template? Perhaps a Final Warning template, letting users know that if they don't cut their shit out, they're gonna get banned. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:42, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
: Clearly it should be used for a "stop edit/revert warring" template. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:32, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

== Our Blogger blog? ==

To me it appears that our blog doesn't have much use. Our twitter sends out links to occasional pages and our facebook is an easy place to congregate and talk about TFs and not take up our talk pages, but the blog hasn't been used in over half a year.

I'm thinking using it to keep track of current trends and such. We could highlight pages that are being worked on, point out users who have been creating/adding a lot to pages (i.e. Geewunling creating minor GI Joe pages, Chris McFeely going crazy with the Japanese food tie-ins). This way an editor or lurker who happens to miss a few days can easily catch up rather than having to sift through the new pages and new files (and even then if a page has just had an entirely new writeup from a stub, it wouldn't show up there).

Any thoughts on this? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:21, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

:I think it would be a good way to draw attention to obscure and/or new stuff on the Wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:46, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
::I think so, too, but there are questions left unanswered if we want to go ahead with this. Who would be given control over the posts? Should it be extra mod duties or instead given to some other veteran editors? If so, how many? Would we want weekly updates or something with less frequency? Overall, who is in the current position to grant other users the power to add posts. I can see this as a useful too, but like many things on this wiki, we need to come up with some sort of procedure before it comes to fruition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:33, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

==TFwiki in the past week==
Could someone tell me why the TFwiki has been down/inaccessible for most of the time in the past week? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:04, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:I would wager "massive spikes in traffic, as DotM stuff hits," which has happened before.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::I thought traffic wouldn't be a likely cause since the third movie is still over a month away. Guess I was wrong. Thanks! [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:27, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

:::There's at least some clamor now that the toys are out there.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:46, 10 May 2011 (EDT)

::::Technical explanation or non-technical? Traffic HAS picked up a bit, the wiki hardware (such as it is) is slightly overtaxed, and we need to start doing some math on what we can separate into other servers, and how much it'll cost to do so.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:15, 13 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::Cowboy time. We've moved the application server and cache to another box, and synced over the contents. If anything's missing, we can try to sync it over from the old webserver, but it wouldn't be off by more than a few minutes, so here's hoping that we're back in business!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:43, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::No wonder the connection becomes smooth again recently. Nice Works!! --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 22:45, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

:::::::Yeah, I'd noticed that the site was back to normal. Thanks for the hard work. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:52, 17 May 2011 (EDT)

::::::Thanks for fixing our wiki! [[User:JW|JW]] 07:15, 18 May 2011 (EDT)

== Eagc7's movie comic section edits ==

Lately Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is good. However, Eagc7 has been editing the somewhat neglected movie prequel comic sections in character articles, which is bad. I know he tries, but whenever he does this sort of thing, he just ends up creating work for somebody else to clean up, and frankly, it's easier to write stuff from scratch than it is to fix somebody's spelling & grammar, as well as trying to make the text fit the tone and style of the paragraphs surrounding it (which is important considering the Foundation comics take place during the other Movie prequel comics). I haven't read Foundation and Rising Storm, [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/Eagc7 so I can't fix all of this myself], but that seems like a fair bit of work to fix at a time when the wiki was experiencing random downtime and BotCon is rapidly approaching (meaning a good chunk of our regular editors will not be able to edit much, and in any case would be updating stuff about/from BotCon). Like I said, I know he's trying, and he's getting much better than he used to be, but... maybe he should leave fiction edits to the professionals. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 16:27, 18 May 2011 (EDT)
:Take it up with him via his Talk Page or the E-mail a User link. If there's really a stylistic problem, then we need a Style Guide for new users to reference.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 11:04, 19 May 2011 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2011-05-17T19:43:50Z

McFly: /* TFwiki in the past week */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
 <div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
 <div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
 <div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
}} 

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


==Didn't we have a Transformers Appearances/References in Other Media page?==
I could have sworn we did, mentioning stuff like Family guy etc. If we don't have such a page, would it be allowed to be created? [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 11:53, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:Unless it's officially sanctioned by Hasbro, no, we do not mention Transformer appearances in other media. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 11:54, 18 December 2010 (EST)
:: If it ever existed, it would have been destroyed with fire in about 30 seconds. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:46, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::: Of course, if we did have such a page, we could use it as a lighting rod, keep anons from adding something to Soundwave's page every time Seth Green says the word "transformers." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:28, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Of course, NO. Discussion over. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:45, 18 December 2010 (EST)
::::Discussion not quite over. If the unofficial nature of the topic is the reason why it is not allowed, then there are several articles that already exist that are pushing boundaries on the wiki. I would have thought that the biggest problem would be it's size.[[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 09:26, 20 December 2010 (EST)
:::::Yeah, that'd be the other big reason. There's so many such references it would be impossible to keep track of them all. It would also involve making sure what's added there is actually a TF reference. And given all the Toms, Dicks and Harrys that'll come out of the woodwork to add such stuff, that's going to be more trouble than not having a page. Best not to get a larger headache for the sake of reducing a smaller one. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 12:44, 20 December 2010 (EST)

=="Knockoff warning" for toy sections?==
Just something that occurred to me... as I skimmed this page http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 and looked at alllllll the "could be mistaken for real and paid stupid money for" knockoffs... is there any objection to some form of link to this in the relevant toy sections? Sadly, the page lacks a "jump to" feature of any kind, but alerting people to the potential danger of dropping several hundred on what they think is a genuine Defensor box set... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 02:50, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:I think it skirts the line with our "we don't really discuss knockoffs" policy, but on the other hand, yeah, it's a useful bit of information, almost to the point where we could stand to have a special page about ''these specific knockoffs''. I am not opposed to adding a link to that site, no, as long as it's got a massive and specific caveat attached to it (maybe even with a special template box thing ("A Prime Problem"-themed perhaps?)). Hell, maybe the highendtfs people would be willing to throw up navigation in exchange for the inevitable deluge of hits - anyone got contact info for the owner? [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 09:11, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::It's worth noting that there are some very well-done Henkei seekers knockoffs now, too. The really expensive ones even, like Thundercracker. Their sections could use warnings as well. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 17:56, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::Are they in knockoff PACKAGING that is meant to look like the real thing? That's the really tricky part. G1 MIB shit is much, much more expensive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 20:27, 19 December 2010 (EST)
::::Yes, they are: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/buyer-beware-update-on-ko-henkei-seekers/20380/ -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:03, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::I am not sure I want to attach more template boxes to pages as is. Especially over something like knockoffs. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 20:55, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::I'd ''thought'' about a template, but... ehn. I think a simple link under the TFU.info (or whatever), perhaps with a bolded "'''Knockoff alert'''" text. Like...

::::*''[http://www.highendtfs.com/?q=node/17 '''Knockoff alert''': More information on packaged imitations of this toy at HighendTFs.com]''

:::Thoughts? This would ONLY cover stuff that is in packaging meant to deceive you by looking as real as they can get it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:05, 19 December 2010 (EST)

::::I could agree with that. This is a step beyond your standard knock off crap, some notice might be appropriate.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 21:44, 19 December 2010 (EST)

:::::I think it is a good idea to have it, since it is useful. This is different from putting info of some KO or unlicensed products on the page. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:49, 19 December 2010 (EST)

== Extension:Oversight ==

Quite a few times I've seen admins delete and undelete pages to clean out bad revisions. Why they do this I have no idea, since we have [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Oversight the Oversight extension] installed.

Perhaps we should look into granting some people "oversighter" access? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 05:09, 25 December 2010 (EST)
:I've just noticed that deleting and then restoring pages in the manner mentioned above has the side effect of resetting a page's page views stats, so that's another point in favour of the Oversight extension. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:40, 11 January 2011 (EST)

== Wikipedia, revisited ==

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#The_.22Campaign_of_Deletion.22_against_the_Transformers_Wiki_Project_by_NotARealWord_and_TFWiki.net]

Just in case anyone's interested. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 10:54, 5 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log back in)
:NEWSFLASH: Nobody cares. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:21, 5 January 2011 (EST)

== Captcha to prevent spambots? ==

Is there any way we could implement captcha to account creation to prevent the spambot problem we're having now? I've seen other wikis use that measure. Maybe also disable new page creation by anons? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:56, 6 January 2011 (EST)
:We already have CAPTCHA implemented on the account creation service. --[[Special:Contributions/84.193.193.10|84.193.193.10]] 13:09, 6 January 2011 (EST) (-Blackout-, can't be bothered to log in)
::Never mind, then! [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 13:30, 6 January 2011 (EST)

== Real world events by day Category ==

These of course comprise every date of the year. However, I notice recently people have been adding fictional events to these dates. That basically invalidates the Category, since it's no longer comprised of only real-world events. The fictional events should be moved out into another section, or the category name should be changed to "Events by day". Thoughts? --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:01, 9 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree with changing to "Events by day". I would also support having separate fictional and real world sections on the pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:38, 9 January 2011 (EST)

== Project Wonderful ads ==

Um, guys, I found there [http://www.projectwonderful.com/img/uploads/pics/53018-1293943633.gif Non-official products] in the ads of CapturedPrey. I know the small ads are showing up randomly (and may not be controllable since we can't regulate them), but I think it is still need to be reported here. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 01:04, 16 January 2011 (EST)
: I don't mind them in the non-permanent ads. TFSource used them all the time in their ads before we made them permanent sponsors. It was only when we made them a permanent sponsor did we ask to make them free of third-party product. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:57, 16 January 2011 (EST)

== Games <strike>fiction</strike> ==

Okay, now that [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] has flooded the character pages with stubs for 30 years worth of crappy Transformers games, can we reconsider how the Games sections are treated? I really don't think in-universe fiction descriptions are the way to handle it. [[War for Cybertron]] may've had a plot, but the majority of TF games are more in the vein of "hit things until they stop coming". A fiction section makes even less sense for games where the character selection is variable. ''"[[Hardhead (G1)#Transformers:_The_Headmasters|Hardhead]] may (or may not) have been present at this battle. Or this one. Or this..."'' Ditto for generic drone soldiers. Isn't there a way to address the games without trying to craft a sensical fiction for them? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 08:46, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:I agree. The games should appear as merchandise on all relevant characters pages, but there is no need for a fiction write up for most games on those same pages. A generic write up on the game page should suffice. Something like "An Autobot warrior participated in a battle...", with a character box listing all potential "Autobot warriors" (aka playable characters). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Moving games to merchandise sounds awful. It would result in amazing amounts of lost information. I have no idea what doing that would solve. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 09:44, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::I think it depends on the game - for example in the ROTF console game, while you CAN play as multiple characters, the game provides a suggested one for you. IMO, that's who "actually" did the stuff depicted in the game (and the opposing side's campaign generally suggests it as well). When you can just pick from a half-dozen dudes and it doesn't matter, then maybe a brief summary of the game's plot and a note. "Jerkwagon was one of many Autobots involved in blah blah plot synopsis bluh. NOTE: Such-and-such game allowed players to choose multiple protagonists, including Jerkwagon." [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 13:19, 25 January 2011 (EST)
I agree that Games should be their own section -- there's certainly enough of them, and they should be treated differently than keychains and what-not. But I think an out-of-universe description of the games would be better in most cases. Instead of having to write vague text like ''"As Ultra Magnus searched for the truth behind Optimus Prime's death, he battled Trypticon in a game of death and suffering."'', which is about all the plot I could wrangle out of [[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy|Convoy no Nazo]] and tells you virtually nothing, we could write something more informative, like ''"Trypticon is the boss of Stage 10."'', and describe what actually happens in the game instead of trying to make it sound like believable fiction. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 11:29, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::My personal view on the matter is, from a character's page, I should be able to find EVERY place that character has appeared. And when we do list guys having an appearance when they're most likely an animation error in the far-background of an episode, I don't think there's any excuse to NOT list an appearance of a character wherever he might appear, including board and video games. Is that a lot of work? Yeah. But beneath all the jokes that make this place so great, this is still an encyclopedia, and purposely leaving out information out of an encyclopedia is wrong. Though I think Hooper X has the right idea... I doesn't have to be the most super-extensive write up. Heck, I was even going to suggest just having a link saying "See Return of Convoy article" or something like that. Also: I apologize if I had started getting very sloppy last night, but looking back, it was like 5 in the morning by the time I finished up. Yikes. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:10, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::I totally agree that the games should be dealt with on the character pages. I'm just looking for an option other than a completely in-fiction description. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 15:14, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::: The first idea that comes to mind is having a subsection called "Gameplay" or something like that for each game write-up, something that would be similar to a note? Though really, my main solution for stuff like that has been, up to this point, to just stick a couple of notes in the game write-up, like on [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]]'s page. I'll keep on trying to think up other solutions though... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:26, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::::Storylinks already serve as that, so what's the point of another link? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:47, 25 January 2011 (EST)

== Fiction order guide? ==

I've been over the Style guides a few times trying to find if a page like this already exists, but it doesn't look like it. I'll be the first to admit that when adding in new fiction/game subsections to a character's article, I sometimes confuse and probably put them out of order. So I've been wondering if a page that lists every fictional work and game in the proper order of each other would be a good idea? On one hand, it seems like an ABSURD amount of work for a style guide, one that would have to be CONSTANTLY updated as new things come out. On the other hand, it would be very handy to have a list to reference for character pages. Especially because it can get VERY frustrating trying to hunt down which book/cartoon/whatever came first in the same year. For those who don't understand what I'm talking about, here's an example I quickly put together, using the [[Cheetor (BW)]] and [[Optimus Prime (G1)]] pages as reference.

When listing a character's media appearances, use this sorting order:
*Fiction
**Generation 1 Marvel Comics continuity
**Generation 1 S.T.A.R.S. pack-in flyers
**Generation 1 cartoon continuity
**Generation 1 Kid Stuff Talking Story Books
**Generation 1 Big Looker Story Books
**Generation 1 Ladybird Books continuity
**''Transformers in 3-D''
**''Transformers PD Type'' comic
**''Comic Bom Bom G-2'' comic
**Beast Wars First wave toy bios
**Beast Wars Cartoon continuity
***Dawn of Future's Past
***''Beast Wars'' cartoon
***Fast Action Battlers toyline
***3H ''Tales from the Beast Wars'' comics
***IDW ''Beast Wars'' comics
***''Transformers Legends'' anthology
***''Beast Machines'' cartoon
***''Beast Machines'' toy bio
***''Universe'' comic
***''Beast Wars Metals'' comic
***Beast Wars ''Henkei! Henkei!'' pack-in comic
**Generation 1 Dreamwave comics continuity
**''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''
**''Transformers/G.I. Joe''
**Generation 1 IDW comics continuity
**''Hearts of Steel''
**''Music Label''
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' (pack-in comic)
**''Henkei! Henkei!'' Bun Bun manga
**Alternity
**''Robot Heroes'' comic
**''Universe'' cartoon
**Wings of Honor

Is this a good idea? Would anyone actually like to see this kind of thing, or would I just be putting a whole bunch of work into something we don't need? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:28, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:We do need standardization of section names. The section order, however, depends on order in which the character appeared in those continuities in the real world. Then the subsections are ordered by the fictional chronology. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:35, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::No wonder I get confused by this fiction order thing. @_@ I guess I might just be one of those people that will never get the hang of some of these things. And yeah, the section names was definitely something else I wanted to tackle, since I've seen at times no less than four different ways to refer to a certain media. I sometimes have to check the storylinks at the end to be sure it's all part of the same story! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:45, 25 January 2011 (EST)
::Note that, within a continuity, flashbacks and time travel can mean that experiential fictional chronology for one character requires a different order of headings than for another. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:16, 25 January 2011 (EST)
:::In regards to standardization, I have an idea. What if we create a list of headers (kept on this page perhaps) used on Optimus Prime (G1)'s page (probably has the greatest number of different headers), use that as our initial standards list, then update it as we find other headers or decide to change the existing standards? Once we think we've covered the majority of possibilities, we could move it to a help page and make it official policy. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:49, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::::I put together [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a sandbox along these lines]] a couple of years ago. It hasn't been updated in quite a while, and I'm not sure it was ever actually complete, and it was the subject of [[User_talk:Jackpot/Sandbox/Sections|a bit of debate]]... but there it is, for what it's worth. (Also, I support standardization of headers, but I've run into [[Talk:Ricochet_(Headmasters)#Header|some]] [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive22#Section_naming_conventions|opposition]] over the nitty-gritty before, so best of luck.) - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 06:11, 8 February 2011 (EST)

== Foreign name reorganization ==

Is there any chance we could consider moving the foreign names somewhere else in the article other than at the top? We've already established a new standard for episodes, but characters could stand to have their names moved to their own dedicated section, likely under "Notes". There, we could add things like kana and Cyrillic forms of names not different from the English version. Opinions? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 15:56, 4 February 2011 (EST)
:I'm in favor of it. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:33, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::All things considered, since this is (mostly) an english-centric wiki when it comes to stuff, the foreign names do come off as being interesting trivia more than anything else. I'm in favour of this too. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 16:37, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I'm fine with where they are now, personally. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:39, 4 February 2011 (EST)

:I can see the logic in them being moved down to notes. You've got an in-universe profile, then a bunch of out-of-universe names, then the in-universe fiction section. The only argument I have against it is that I'm used to seeing the foreign names at the top. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:05, 4 February 2011 (EST)

::If it can be moved downward (to the first entry of the notes section or a new section after the notes section) instead of being on the top, MOVE it. Originally, I'm fine withe where they are {{m-}} but that would be a character with fewer foreign names. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 19:55, 4 February 2011 (EST)
Any further opinions on this? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:36, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:What about cases where some of the extra names at the top are English, e.g. Omni Productions names, or preliminary or nicknames? Would they remain at the top or become notes too? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:29, 21 February 2011 (EST)
::The Malay dub still technically counts as foreign in my mind. Nicknames should be integrated in the introduction (or notes section), and preliminary names should have been in notes in the first place, since they aren't the characters' "real names" in any sense. Further elaboration of the preliminary names better suits the notes section, anyway. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:43, 21 February 2011 (EST)
Japanese names are often for a character in a slightly different continuity. Like "Fire Convoy" is a Car Robots character and "Optimus Prime" is an RID character, but they share the same page. Or "Flame Convoy" is a Galaxy Force character but "Scourge" is a Cybertron character. In that case they should have the Japanese name up top. The names that are just different language versions of the English character can go on bottom. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 13:18, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:... no. ''Cybertron'' and ''Galaxy Force'' are NOT different stories (Takara officially put GF back in the same timeline as the prior two series), and the ''RID/CR'' split is a unique case. In neither case should the names go up top. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:44, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::They are slightly different continuities. Galaxy Force doesn't have the [[Omega Frequency]] for example. And the Grand Black Hole is different. And the [[Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity]] is different. [[Blaster (G1)|Broadcast]] never became Twincast in English. I think Japanese names are a special case and deserve to be on top since Japanese toyline & fiction continuity is always slightly separate. But I can hit the "end" key on the keyboard easy enough. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::Every single foreign language version of something is technically a slightly different continuity, strictly due to the nature of translation. This is not a arena in which Galaxy Force is unique. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:01, 23 February 2011 (EST)

== Commercial Appearances section ==

Alright, so I plan later on to start going through characters' pages and add in a "Commercial Appearances" section where it applies (sorry, I can't this weekend... homework to do!). Several characters already have this section and a lot of these commercials have nice short animations or other interesting characterizations and tidbits that I think they bear to be included in the characters' pages. Although, much like the Games sections, I'll only be able to marginally help by adding in the section itself to let people know that there's work to be done on a character's page... MY computer is so incredibly shitty that I can't even play videos off youtube. D:

But anyways, the reason I'm bringing this up here is because before I get started, I'd like to discuss what kind of format we want for this section, so it can be done right the first time around. Obviously, where it applies, stuff like indicating who the voice actor for the character makes sense, but should the write-up be in-universe or not? Since commercials fluctuate between using a short animation telling a mini-story and just being a straight-up commercial saying "buy this toy!" should a combination of both in-universe and out-of-universe description be used? And should we count the parts where the kids brandish their action figures and talk for the character as dialog spoken by the character? That's all the questions on the subject I can really think of for now... --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 15:12, 6 February 2011 (EST)
:I would write up the animation segments in-universe so long as they're unique to the commercial (i.e. not just recycled footage from one of the cartoons). Anything else that's notable enough could qualify for an out of universe note. But I wouldn't bother with recycled animation or the kids talking for the figures. That doesn't qualify as fiction to me.
:In regards to your inability to view the commercials, would it help if you could download them in some fashion and then watch them offline? Maybe burn the videos to a DVD disc? --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:43, 6 February 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, any clips taken from pre-existing mediums would be redundant from those scenes being already covered in other sections on that character's page. Personally though, I'm still on the fence about the kids talking for the figures... I find it comparable to botcon script readings in a way... People just talking out loud for a character without any accompanying animation... I'm prone to be swayed either way. As for me viewing the commercials themselves, my spring break is a week from now. I might have access to a better computer then, but otherwise I'll just be putting in information already available on the wiki to the appropriate pages throughout the week, I guess. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 17:53, 6 February 2011 (EST)

==How to resolve monster debates?==
[[User:-Blackout-]]'s recent meltdown over being prevented from editing [[Goldbug (IDW)]] has made me think again about how policy/content discussions tend to go on this wiki. It's a big part of why I haven't been around since last summer: I found myself perpetuating these miles-long debates that few cared to read, everyone was irritated by, and most importantly ''were impossible to resolve.''

That Goldbug article is a sterling example. Right now, people are talking about it as if the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1|giant]] [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2|debate]] had resolved in favor of the current setup, so changing the article at this point is taboo because it "was dealt with already." But that's not how it went at all. Blackout's dickishly unilateral edit-war was definitely the Wrong Way to reopen this, but it's also wrong to pretend that we had achieved consensus or closure on the issue.

At [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive2#Breaking down the problem|the end of the debate]], I had restated the case for [[User:Jackpot/Sandbox/Goldbug (G1)|my "Goldbug (G1)" sandbox]], which is definitely different from the current setup, and 6 other people declared support for it while 2 objected at length. But the objectors were also against the current setup: Jeysie wanted the toy gone, and Derik wanted... something inscrutable and Deriky. Combining those numbers with the [[Talk:Goldbug (IDW)/Archive1#Vote Tally|premature vote]] that had been taken earlier (and adjusting for the voters who changed their minds by the end), I count:

Sandbox: 8 
Sandbox with modifications: 3 
Current page: 7 
Current page without the toy: 2

That's not consensus. That's deadlock. In fact, there were fewer votes to keep the page as-is than there were to change it in some fashion. The current setup didn't win out in terms of votes, logic, precedent, or any other measure: It won out because it was what happened to be there when the debate died of exhaustion.

So we're stuck with an awkward page that most people want to be different, encased in concrete forevermore. I don't see any way out of this situation, and I've watched the same principle play out with other debates too many times. At the very least, I wonder if it would be helpful to have a Template:Deadlock that we could slap on inconclusive debates (with a picture of [[Drift (G1)|Deadlock]], natch) so people know the true state of things.

Taking that idea further, maybe it could come with a period of enforced moratorium – say, two weeks – followed by a revote and/or a formalized "final statements" opportunity? The most extreme option I can think of is to create a "council of elders" that has the community-bestowed power to resolve intractable debates and declare relevant policy principles. Basically, a Supreme Court. I do worry that creating an authoritative heirarchy might produce even more problems, but I figured I'd throw it out there.

Thoughts? Other ideas?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:20, 9 February 2011 (EST)
: This whole argument goes to the heart of what we mean when we say two characters are "the same". The Bumblebee toy was produced and fiction was made to promote that toy, thus all of those fictions (which differ from each other) are about "the same" character. The Goldbug toy was produced with a tech spec that stated that it was "the same" character as Bumblebee. Fiction was produced to promote that toy, thus all those varying depictions of Goldbug are "the same" character as Bumblebee. The same argument applies to the differing backstories of Optimus Prime; Orion Pax and Optronix are "the same" character because they both are earlier forms of the character that was used to promote the sale of the Optimus Prime toy. The problem comes in with later stories that are not produced to promote those original toys. How do we decide what is the same? When is a character "the same character under different circumstances/in a different universe" and when is it simply an homage character? I really can't see how others see the IDW Goldbug as "the same" character as the original toy and not (as I see him) as a simple homage character. Under their viewpoint the toy belongs, under mine it doesn't. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:15, 10 February 2011 (EST)

: I NOMINATE MYSELF AS FINAL ARBITER AND SUPREME OVERLORD. all decisions will be made based on what amuses me the most. (seriously, we probably ought to have some kind of "no consensus" tag for articles like that.) [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 12:58, 10 February 2011 (EST)

Mmm...probably best not to restart the Goldbug debate itself here, Khajidha -- that would quickly distract from what Jackpot's actually asking here, which is how debates should be resolved ''in general''.

Some of the basic rules we already follow should remain. No "edit-warring"...leave it up to the Talk Pages to hash out the problem. I don't think a mere two weeks is enough to give people time to change their minds, though, especially in this crowd. One thing I notice is that despite dozens of regular contributors and hundreds overall, most Talk Page or Community Portal votes I've seen have less than 20 votes at the end. Many of these debates fly right under the radar. I'm relatively active here, but the Goldbug (IDW) chaos completely passed me by.

What about, when a Talk Page debate has clearly reached an impasse between <strike>obstinant</strike> strong-willed parties, a Vote is taken on the ''Main Page''? Some sort of easy-to-see box temporarily added to the Main Page, "above the fold" so that its visible to all visitors when they enter? It would be more noticeable than if the vote is hidden away on a single Talk Page people may or may not see. Something like ''"A [[Deadlock]] has arisen! Choose from the following choices: Should [[Goldbug (IDW)]] have the G1 toy on his page? Yes or No? (See the Goldbug (IDW) Talk Page for the full debate.)"''

I realize many debates won't be as simple as Yes or No, but if the debating parties agree in advance how to phrase the Voting Box, it could be a useful tool. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 13:07, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:Yeah, wasn't really trying to restart that debate. Was bringing up questions about general character debates, as they seem to occur quite often. But other debates also bog down, so I recognize that my questions don't apply to those debates.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:35, 10 February 2011 (EST)

:I like the idea of keeping a debate in the regulars' faces until a decision has been reached by enough people (at least 20? 25?). Many debates I keep away from because I think they'll disappear anyway and my vote doesn't really matter <s>and I also can't deal all that well with the aggressive nature of most debates, making it actively a lose-only situation if I'd enter</s>. I'm not sure if others feel that way, but I imagine this would be a boost for all to participate. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::I absolutely disagree with the premise that people who don't care enough to read the argument should have it shoved in their face until they vote. AT MOST, we should mention it somewhere prominent, like the community portal. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 18:53, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:::I agree that essentially putting a ballot on the front page is asking for trouble. You might get the dozens of votes you're looking for, but they'll all be uninformed gut reactions. One of the reasons these debates happen is that issues can be much more complicated and subtle than they seem at first glance. Plus one would hope that the reasoning behind the winning option would help develop our policies, but if the decisions are made by the majority of an explicitly uninformed mob, it's hard to glean any substantial precedent out of that.
:::But I think an approach like that ''could'' be combined with my "final statements" suggestion. Thinking out loud here: After a cooling-off period has been declared and a set amount of time has passed, anyone who wants to present a case can write up a defense of his or her preferred option. Those are all submitted to a neutral volunteer, who then posts them simultaneously on the relevant Talk page, and those become the voting choices. No replies are allowed, only votes. We put a notice up at least on the Community Portal, possibly on the Main Page, for another set time period, then close voting and go with the majority.
:::How does that sound? Like I said, thinking out loud, so suggestions are more than welcome.
:::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:18, 10 February 2011 (EST)
::::Sounds pretty good to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:19, 11 February 2011 (EST)

==How featured articles are chosen==
On a side note, would a box like that also be useful to start a voting system for featured pages? Because I'm fine with Drift and Wreck-Gar and all others before, but I am absolutely clueless as to who chose them to become featured for what reasons. I'd like to see a better system for that. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:23, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: If there was a recently-completed article that's of respectable length, I choose it. The pool for featured articles is pretty damn small. Not many articles are finished, and the ones that are finished have usually already been Featured Articles already. Finished articles don't happen very frequently, so sometimes we find one that's close to completion near the end of a month and then push to finish it before the month is over. Sometimes we think a subject or a character is timely (like around BotCon, or before an episode or movie premiere) and push for that. If you want a heads up, Chris McFeely's [[Matrix of Leadership]] article is so totally March's. (I think Chris has the record for number of articles he's completed which have become featured.) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:31, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: Long story short, if you want an article to be featured, finish it. That means photos for every toy and known merchandise, and storylinks (with summaries) to every piece of fiction they've appeared in. Behind the scenes information helps. The longer and more involved the article, the more appealing it is. Meaning, finishing an article for a Mini-Con who showed up in the background somewhere, or finishing an article for someone who doesn't have any illutrated appearances... these are probably not going to be featured. But people like Perceptor (G1) or Side Burn (RID) or High Wire (Armada) have enough about them to say to make an interesting featured article. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:36, 10 February 2011 (EST)
: "Long story short," my ass. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:37, 10 February 2011 (EST)
:: Have we done any episodes as Featured yet? I know the over-arching "Target 2006" article was chosen once. You'd think we could get, say [[Code of Hero]] up to that standard pretty quickly. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 07:42, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::I really think we need to get [[BotCon]] up to that standard. We're pretty close! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:22, 11 February 2011 (EST)
:::[[B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.]] is a Featured article about an episode. [[User:Excise|Excise]] 00:00, 16 February 2011 (EST)

== Letterers ==
On images of comic pages, do we credit the ''letterers'' by placing the image in an "Image by Letterer Name" category? We've got a few contradictory examples around. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:32, 12 February 2011 (EST)
:Okay, three options: For images currently in categories like "Images by Mike Scott" (where Mike Scott is a letterer), we can:
:# Create the category and treat letterers just like artists, inkers, and colorists.
:# Instead place them in a "Images ''lettered'' by Mike Scott" category.
:# Remove the category, and not attempt to categorize images by letterer.
:I'm probably going to go with option 3 barring dissent. [[User:JW|JW]] 17:25, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I added galleries to a few of the pages for letterers (eg [[Bill Oakley]], [[Peri Godbold]]) on the basis that lettering can make or [[:Image:Cryotekmrrghmraghmrugghagh.jpg|break]] a comic. As well as adding the text, the letterer has to pick where the balloons will go and place, them, so they do have a large degree of control over how the comic turns out. That said, I don't know that we need to categorise images by letterer. The original intention was [[:Category talk:Images by artist|not to]], but it looks like we ended up doing it anyway, and at least one template is set up to put images into category by letterer. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:44, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I'd vote for option 3 as well.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 22:02, 16 February 2011 (EST)
::I'm leaning towards option 3 myself. My reasoning is that even though letterers can have a large effect on a comic, I don't see too many people wanting to find every image lettered by a given letterer. The galleries, on the other hand, are useful for demonstrating the quality of an individual's work. So those should be used. While the obsessive in me thinks we should categorize images by every applicable characteristic, it's not realistic. I don't think it benefits us enough to go through all that work for categories that only a few people might find useful. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 01:09, 17 February 2011 (EST)
'Kay, I'm going to go with option 3. This may involve editing a template or two. [[User:JW|JW]] 10:35, 17 February 2011 (EST)

== Categories by toy size class? ==
Do we ''want'' the following categories?
 Leader class toy images
 Deluxe class toy images
 Voyager class toy images
 Scout class toy images
 They currently have a very few things in them (and could obviously have many more), but the cat' pages themselves have not been created. [[User:JW|JW]] 15:43, 12 February 2011 (EST)

:No. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:13, 12 February 2011 (EST)

::No. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:06, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:::As long as it's only the images and not the articles, I couldn't care less. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:09, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:There's also a "Legends class toy images" category which has 90 images in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:21, 15 February 2011 (EST)

::Legends are kind of an exception because they're a different scale/play pattern, as evidenced by the upcoming Cyberverse stuff. Scouts-on-up are ''generally'' meant to intermingle, Legends aren't. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 07:41, 16 February 2011 (EST)

:I could go either way on this one. It's a lot of work to fill these categories out, but the ability to find all the Deluxe figures easily intrigues me. If we did institute this I would also think that this would be the proper place to put the "exclusive figure" categories and such. Basically, any category that pertains to a particular toy and not to the character could be tagged to the image of that toy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 23:08, 15 February 2011 (EST)

:I've been doing them because I saw other people do them. I don't mind either way. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 05:51, 16 February 2011 (EST)
So, counting me as "no", that's three "no"s, an "I don't care", an "I don't mind either way", and an "either way/intrigues me". I think we're leaning toward "no". Final comments? [[User:JW|JW]] 07:08, 16 February 2011 (EST)

::I guess it's "no" or at least "not the time"? (Though I'm "I'm not sure".) --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 11:21, 16 February 2011 (EST)
:::I've gone with "no", and added a note to that effect to [[Transformers_Wiki:Images]]. [[User:JW|JW]] 14:27, 16 February 2011 (EST)

Ha ha, none of the no's have actually said why they've said no. Such super debating skills that. [[Special:Contributions/213.105.226.130|213.105.226.130]] 17:44, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== Undo Redone? ==

I just undid an edit, but instead of getting the automatic "Reverting edit ##### by User1 to last version by User2" summary, that box was blank. In addition, above the edit window were the captions "Current revision" and "Your text", side by side, as if there's meant to be one editable text window under each. Instead, there was only one such text window beneath them, stretching across under both captions. The page is protected so only registered users can edit it, so that MIGHT have something to do with the problem, though I doubt it.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 20:28, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:It doesn't automatically create an edit summary if you're doing an undo on multiple revisions, so that might be it. Not sure about the other part - it's always shown me a diff at the top of the screen when I've done an undo. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 20:54, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::Okay, blank edit summary's explained, because it was indeed a group of 3-4 edits being undone all at once. Still inexplicable is the fact that I just checked the page history; it didn't even accept my Undo! LoneGamer78 ended up doing it instead. I've noticed some sluggish response from the site over the past fifteen minutes or so, perhaps whatever caused that was a factor? It may never be known...--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 21:02, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::Is it possible she just beat you to it by a few moments and thus there was an edit conflict? I've had that happen sometimes, and so there's no diff shown because now the page already matches what you were going to change it to. (Uh, does that make sense?) --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 22:17, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::::Can't rule it out entirely, but edit conflicts usually announce themselves as such, and they DO have two distinct editable text windows: one showing the text as it stands after someone edited while you were typing, the other as it would have been if you'd edited without interference.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 22:24, 19 February 2011 (EST)
:::::A few times I've "undone" an edit, but someone else beat me to it. It doesn't seem to show an edit conflict if that happens, probably because the change is identical to the previous one. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:06, 19 February 2011 (EST)

== Banner ad question. ==
The small side box ad (the one that's still a free-floater) currently has an ad for some webcomic. Which is fine, but one of the panels has GIANT ERECT LADY NIPPLES ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm not offended by it, but it's, uh, something. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 06:39, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:Ah, yeah. That'd be because it's an NSFW comic called DarkBrain which is read aloud by "adult film star Tabitha Stevens." -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 16:50, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:: If people don't like it, I can yank it. I didn't think its THO was that objectionable, apparently, when I okayed it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:27, 22 February 2011 (EST)

== help ==

I cant find the latest talk please help([[User:Manmcmanman|Manmcmanman]] 15:44, 21 February 2011 (EST))
:What do you mean by the latest talk? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 15:54, 21 February 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen Online Games ==

So, I figured I might as well finish up the online game write-ups for Revenge of the Fallen online games, in case they go offline once Dark of the Moon comes out. But, hot damn, do I ever suck. Which means I'm not very likely to get pics of later levels in some of these games. I'll be trying to add in whatever I can to these sections, but some help would be much appreciated! --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:57, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:I can have a go at getting some screencaps tonight if no one else does. Which games in particular? I noticed some of them are already gone a couple of weeks ago, as Hasbro has redirected most of the monkeybar site they were on to the Hub site, which doesn't have them. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::Well, personally I'm having difficulty getting pics of every character's sprite from Battle for the Matrix. I'm currently working on The RPMs Devastator game. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 18:41, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:::I got caps of everyone except the Fallen, haven't uploaded them yet though. I couldn't get the [[flying drone]]s to transform either. They just seem to fly around wildly in robot mode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:56, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::Dang! The Fallen is the only one I can't get to either! And yeah, the flying drones are near-impossible to get a screencap of. I got a couple mid-transformation, but that's it. If any of your pics are better than mine, feel free to replace them. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 13:55, 23 February 2011 (EST)
:::::I went and got pics from Flight of the Bumblebee and Allspark Highway. Unfortunately I can't get pics of Ratchet from the later since robovision isn't up anymore! Darn! I'll upload them later. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] 14:45, 23 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I grabbed a screenshot of The Fallen finally. Man, that game is a memory hog. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 03:38, 25 February 2011 (EST)

== Countdown? ==

Sorry if this isn't the right place to put this, but a while back ago, there was a countdown to ROTF on the Main Page. Perhaps a countdown to DOTM would now be appropriate as it's so close?

Also, I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me how to program/insert/design/<insert verb here> a countdown on a wiki page (it's for another wiki). What template or whatever does that use? I'd be very grateful if someone could tell me.

Again, terribly sorry if this is the wrong place to say this...
 - [[User:Queso|¡Usa El Queso!]] 4:02 PM, 22 February 2011 A.D.
:Dark of the Moon countdown based on Derik's ROTF code: {{#expr: ({{ #time: U |July 1, 2011}} - {{ #time: U }})/86400 round 0}} days until [[Dark of the Moon (film)|TF: Dark of the Moon]]! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:05, 22 February 2011 (EST)

==When to omit "Transformers" from an article title==
So I got a hankering to remove the "Transformers" from [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and all of their related pages, since unlike [[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]], there's just no good reason to break policy for them. There are [[Revenge of the Fallen (Xbox 360/PS3/PC)|other video games that we drop the "TF" from]], and if "Prime" is too common a term, then what about "[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]" or "[[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]"?

But then I decided to check out [http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?ns0=1&search=Transformers&searchx=Search&limit=500 which pages use "Transformers" in their titles,] and holyyyyyyyy crap. I copy-pasted here all the ones I found that I thought could lose the "Transformers" without negating their meaning, destroying a phrase, or otherwise severely damaging the title. (I added an "(etc.)" to each one that represents a series of identically-worded pages):

[[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Animated (franchise)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)]] 
[[1-2-3 Transformers]] 
[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (magazine)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Legends]] 
[[Transformers: Beast Wars Transmetals (N64)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: The Headmasters (video game)]] 
[[The Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Energon Within]] 
[[The Transformers Collection]] 
[[Transformers Quest]] 
[[Transformers Key Recovery: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Power Up: The Game]] 
[[Transformers Cybertron: Primus Unleashed]] 
[[Transformers PD Type]] 
[[Transformers: The Animated Movie]] 
[[Transformers Generations]] 
[[Transformers: Rise of the Chevy Autobots]] 
[[Transformers Annual 1990]] (etc.) 
[[The Transformers Sticker Book (1986)]] 
[[Beast Wars: Transformers (video game)]] 
[[Transformers: The Junior Novel]] 
[[Look and Find Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Coloring and Activity Book and Crayons]] 
[[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers: Learn to Count Activity Tablet]] 
[[Transformers The Reusable Sticker Book]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Storybook]] 
[[Transformers: The Movie Guide]] 
[[Transformers Prime Time]] 
[[Transformers Mix & Match]] 
[[Transformers Comic issue 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers The Game (console)]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Autobots/Decepticons]] 
[[Transformers History of Music 1984-1990]] 
[[Transformers: Mosaic]] 
[[Transformers Name Generator]] 
[[Transformers Battle Universe]] 
[[The Transformers: Binaltech & TF Collection Complete Guide]] 
[[The Transformers Comic Magazine]] 
[[Transformers Pop-Up Book]] 
[[Transformers Visualworks]] 
[[Transformers Tooth Tunes]] 
[[Transformers Tapestry]] 
[[Transformers Song Universe]] 
[[Transformers G1: Awakening]] 
[[Transformers Armada Annual 2004]] 
[[Transformers: Beginnings]] 
[[Transformers the Movie water]] 
[[Transformers: The Score]] 
[[Transformers: The Thirteen]] 
[[Transformers: War Within Omnibus]] 
[[Transformers: The Ride]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Mutating Card Game]] 
[[Beast Wars Transformers Jigsaw Puzzle]] 
[[Transformers: Kōtetsu no Yūki]] 
[[The Transformers Continuum: The Definitive Chronology]] 
[[The Transformers: Bumblebee]] 
[[Transformers Adventures]] (etc.) 
[[Top Trumps: Transformers]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Race for the Mini-Con Robots]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Battle Begins]] 
[[Transformers Armada: Secret of the Star Saber]] 
[[Transformers Armada: The Autobots Strike Back]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 1]] 
[[Transformers Galaxy Force: Sound Pack 2]] 
[[Transformers Theme Song Collection]] 
[[The Transformers: Drift]] 
[[Transformers Revenge of the Fallen Annual 2010]] 
[[Transformers CyberToy]] 
[[Transformers Hall of Fame]] 
[[The Transformers: Ironhide]] 
[[Transformers Evo.]] 
[[The Transformers Legends of the Microns: Sound of Evolution Vol. 1]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Music Matrix]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide]] 
[[Transformers Ultimate Guide: Revenge]] 
[[Transformers: Battle for the Matrix]] 
[[Transformers: Coloring and Activity Book and Stickers]] 
[[Transformers: Activity Book and Gel Pen]] 
[[Transformers: Sector 7]] 
[[Transformers: Cybertron Adventures]] 
[[Transformers Cards]] 
[[Transformers RPMs: Devastator's Demise]] 
[[Cadbury's Transformers Card Game]] 
[[Ridiculous Legend Transformers]] 
[[Famicom How-to Manga: Transformers: Mystery of Convoy]] 
[[Transformers Caramel]] 
[[Transformers Comic-Magazin]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Extra Comic-Sonderheft]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers Super-Auswahlband]] (etc.) 
[[Transformers: Energon Valentine's cards]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 1]] 
[[The Transformers: Infestation issue 2]]

For many of them, the choice to keep or drop the "TF" seems intuitive, and many others are in a grey area... but I'll be damned if I can put into words any kind of coherent rationale. I'm seriously thinking that we've outgrown the "drop extraneous 'TF's" rule. Back when we only had a few hundred pages, it made a certain kind of sense: Why bother writing out stuff like "Transformers: Generation 2" when just "Generation 2" is equally meaningful to everyone here? Besides, isn't every page about Transformers by default? But in the past five years, both the wiki and the subject matter have exploded, and with both so many fine-grain, obscure topics being covered and so much not-strictly-TF content we've added, I don't think the policy serves us anymore. It doesn't make things simple; it makes things arbitrary and unpredictable.

So unless someone can sum up our policy in a way that makes a lick of sense, I propose: '''If a topic has an official title, then that should be used in full as the title of the relevant articles.''' Period. So [[Transformers: War for Cybertron]] and [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] would stay right where they are, and yes, [[Generation 2 (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Generation 2 (franchise)", [[Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)]] would become "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)", etc. I don't think we'd need to make that change happen instantly, but we could slowly propagate it as people feel inclined to. I also think we can keep the parenthetical abbreviations and in-sentence references as short as they currently are; this is only about the titles.

Thoughts?

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)
:What are these "Transformers"? -[[Special:Contributions/75.185.113.106|75.185.113.106]] 18:58, 22 February 2011 (EST)

::I've always been for having the full name as article titles. (Maybe also drop the "(franchise)" disambigs, because durr, but that's other topic.) Not only do we keep the full name of the subject, it aids us in disambiguation (it's easier to have smaller sets of "Transformers: Cybertron" and "Cybertron" than a large set of just "Cybertron"). [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 19:22, 22 February 2011 (EST)

:::I don't have an opinion on adding or removing "Transformers:" from articles (other than that adding it would perhaps make articles and reading unnecessarily longer - right now, I hate having to type out "Transformers Animated" before "The AllSpark Almanac"), but I do oppose removing (franchise). If there's one thing I hate, it's when there's one 'most important' page that goes undisamb'ed (like Spark) and you'll have to go through a lot of trouble to ensure it all is meant to link there. When I cleaned up the Lithone links for planet and species, nearly every single one link directed the wrong way. Same for D-HQ, AllSpark vs Allspark, Junkion, Black Friday, etc. So, keep (franchise). [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 01:49, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I too think "Transformers: " should be kept as well as " (franchise)". --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:46, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::I don't mind losing Transformers when it the prefix in a title that's the form of Transformers: <subtitle>, as in that case the subtitle itself is more the actual official name and "Transformers" is just tacked on as an extra identifier.

::::But in some of those things, Transformers is, well, a vital part of the thing's actual name. I mean, for instance, the Club's full official name ''is'' "Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club", so removing "Transformers" from it would be incorrect. --[[Special:Contributions/67.252.49.31|67.252.49.31]] 03:00, 23 February 2011 (EST)

:::::I don't think that distinction is clear enough to be workable anymore. Looking at that list, tons of them I have no idea which side of the divide they'd fall on. For instance, "[[Transformers Legends]]" is the proper title of the book; that's how it would be listed in any store or library, but for ''our'' purposes the "TF" is as extraneous as the one that we omit from [[Energon (comic)]] or [[Dinobots Strike Back]]. The "for our purposes" thing is so often so questionable... like, what would that dictate for [[Transformers: The Ultimate Guide]]? It's definitely a subtitle situation like you described, but there are lots of non-TF "Ultimate Guide"s published by the same company... but we would never cover them, so for our purposes is the "TF" still redundant?
:::::I agree with Geewunling that it would be annoying to have to type out longer titles (though readability should be unchanged, since I think we could still truncate in-sentence references). But right NOW it's annoying that our lack of a coherent policy is making everything increasingly unpredictable. We're seeing a lot of creep in the form of stuff like [[Transformers: Prime (franchise)]] and for some reason video games. So I don't even know what should be "corrected" anymore or how to decide the matter when creating a new article.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 13:58, 23 February 2011 (EST)

::::::The annoyance of editors doesn't really enter into my consideration; the wiki is ultimately for the readers, not our convenience. If we have to do some more work for the best presentation, so be it. —Interrobang, not logged in

:I'm OK with moving articles to put Transformers into the title so long as we don't delete the redirects. If we move "Revenge of the Fallen (film)" to "Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)", there are going to be a whole bunch of sites linking to the old URL, and I don't wanna have a repeat of the "(Shattered Glass)" thing where all the redirects get deleted and a whole lot of other sites are pointing to useless error pages. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 22:25, 23 February 2011 (EST)

=="(WFC)" vs. "(Prime)"==
There are currently [[Talk:Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#"(WFC)" instead of "(Prime)" for characters that originated in this franchise?|two]] [[Talk:Optimus Prime (Prime)#Move|discussions]] going about whether articles on subjects that originated in ''War for Cybertron''-branded fiction (the [[War for Cybertron games|games]], [[Exodus: The Official History of the War for Cybertron|novel]], and [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|comic]]) should be titled "(WFC)" rather than "(Prime)". It was suggested that this should be brought up in the Community Portal, so here it is.

For the record, looking at [[War for Cybertron games#Featured Characters|this list]], right now we're using "(Prime)" for all named characters, even those currently exclusive to WfC, and "(WFC)" for all character ''types'' from the games. I'm not sure why that is, but that's the state of things.

- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 17:46, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:I completely agree with Jackpot. It is stupid we have an article called [[Ultra Magnus (Prime)]] stating "Ultra Magnus is an Autobot Wrecker from the WFC portion of the Aligned family continuity". I blame myself for not doing this a lot earlier, treating the WFC navbox as like a subsection of Prime when the novel was so clearly a tie-in to those games. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 18:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::WFC is a tie-in game. As I pointed out, how many Mini-Cons from the PS2 Transformers game use the disambiguator "(Transformers)"? And even then, what of novel-original characters? Do they get "(Exodus)"? And heck, didn't Exodus come out ''before'' WFC? Shouldn't the characters thusly use "(Exodus)" over "(WFC)" or "(Prime)"? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::: The book and game came out on the same day, as I recall. So... yeah. I'm completely against this. We used "Prime" because that was the name we WERE using for the continuity family; frankly, I find this wishy-washy "aligned continuity family" thing pretty lame. The core of the damn family is the Prime cartoon. It is THE central feature, and will be THE major fictional outlet and -almost assuredly- what future non-show fictions will adhere more closely to. I don't see the point in all this subdividing and adding more parantheticals. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:19, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::I find it ''extremely'' hard to believe that if Hasbro's "decade" plan goes through, ''Prime'' is the last franchise we're going to see spring from it. Even Aaron Archer thinks "Prime" is a bad name for the overall deal. Given what a fractured start it's already off to, I think separating out the "family" foundation is the only sensible thing to do. So that's why [[Aligned continuity family]] exists.
::::As for the "(WFC)" notion, I'm not as personally attached to that, even though I do think it's the correct thing to do. Mostly I think that WfC needs to be acknowledged as an entity unto itself, not just a subset of ''Prime''. Strictly from a branding point of view, it ISN'T a subset; nothing has been both WfC- and Prime-branded. It's not just the title of a video game; it's in the titles of [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|a comic]] and [[Exodus: The Official History of the War for Cybertron|a novel]], plus they've made [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)#Toys|toys from it]] that definitely don't fit the ''Prime'' brand. (True, the toys aren't labeled "WfC", but that's par for the course with ''Generations'' anyway. At the very least, it's a grey area.) Beyond branding, it just has a unique aesthetic and sensibility that's very different from ''Prime''.
::::Based on all that, the best place WfC fits in our schema is as a "franchise", to my judgement. "''Prime'' tie-in" doesn't cut it.
::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:55, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::WFC is not ''just'' a tie-in game. It has [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fcfb1b5-19b9-f369-10be-e91a2108d9ab online bios] and [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172 online timeline]. Hasbro made it its own thing. Franchise-like. Before any Prime show started we learned from the timeline that [[Megatron (Prime)|D-16]] was an Energon mine laborer and rose to prominence in secret gladiatorial combat and took the name "Megatron". So [[Megatron (Prime)]] had a whole history before the show even existed. The non-show characters with the (Prime) disambiguation also shows it doesn't quite fit. I'd go for WFC. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 19:35, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::AGAIN, Exodus came out the SAME DAY. So why does WFC get prominence? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:56, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::Because that's the phrase that's used in the names of [[War for Cybertron games|all]] [[Exodus: The Official History of the War for Cybertron|the]] [[Transformers: War for Cybertron (comic)|media]]. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 20:02, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::I don't see how the subline "The official history of the war for Cybertron" is the exact same as "War For Cybertron: The Vidya Game". --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 20:24, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::I agree. Aside from three (ambiguous) words on the book's front, there's not much that says it's part of the WFC "franchise". Same for Generations. If they wanted to, they could have made figures of every War for Cybertron character and released it in a toyline explicitly called "Transformers: War for Cybertron". But they didn't; they just released five toys based on WFC designs and released them under Generations, so Generations is a WFC toy line as much as it is a G1 one (actually, probably more of G1 considering how very few WFC toys there were). The video games are only different because of hardware limitations, so having multiple games with the same title does not a franchise make. Having a website with bios and everything is a moot point, because almost every video game has that. The comic, I'll give you that one, but I don't think it's a franchise if it's a game and a tie-in comic with a limited release. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 20:30, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::For what it's worth, when you [http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/discover/movie-news/Transformers-War-for-Cybertron.cfm click on "War For Cybertron"] it brings up all the Generations toys. I also think the WFC timeline ties in Exodus to WFC since the events in the comic and timeline are basically from the book. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:48, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::::It also brings up PCC Icepick (item 12 of 12, on page 2). --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 20:52, 28 February 2011 (EST)

::::::::The WfC-branded timeline and comic both cover events in ''Exodus''. Hell, the comic was written by the same dude. I don't understand the logic that says that the "War for Cybertron" in the novel's title doesn't mean the same thing. If there were a novel called "Deuteronomy: The Official History of the Beast Wars" set during the events of the cartoon, I wouldn't be trying to say it was part of the ''Beast Machines'' franchise.
::::::::Let me put in a slightly different light: Because franchises are branding-based, not continuity-based, I'm not comfortable with the ''Prime'' franchise being stretched to include all this stuff that doesn't have the ''Prime'' label on it. Yes, it's clearly all RELATED, story-wise, but that's what [[Aligned continuity family|continuity pages]] are for. This feels like taking ''Machine Wars'' (which is the opposite kind of sparse: a toyline with virtually no fiction) and rolling it into G2. Sure, they're in the same family, and there are connections between the two, but they're not marketed with the same label, so we don't do it. Before ''Prime'' existed, there were these other forms of media sharing a unique title (that even got the TF-logo lockup treatment!) and covering common ground. Then ''Prime'' showed up, and so far the two labels have not been seen on the same product. To me, that means two franchises.
::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:20, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:::::::::But... there is no overarching label on the products we have poked into the WFC "Franchise". "Transformers: War for Cybertron" has its own logo which is also on the tie-in comic, and Exodus has its own logo. They're still prequels to TF:Prime. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:33, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::::I guess I just see the "War for Cybertron" in the title of ''Exodus'' as having more meaning than you do. Yeah, Hasbro could've been more blatant if they'd wanted to, but it's still clearly telling the reader it's part of the same deal as the WfC games and comic, without making any reference to ''Prime'' (or vice-versa). I can imagine a situation where the ''Prime'' branding might retroactively subsume WfC, like how the "Wreckers" comic was given the ''Universe'' brand (they say there's another game coming out, after all). But that hasn't happened yet, so in the meantime I say WfC doesn't belong under the ''Prime'' franchise.
::::::::::Anyway, at this point if we don't see eye-to-eye, we probably won't, so I'm going to shut up now.
::::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

:What about the next thing after ''Prime'' that is in the Modern/Aligned continuity? We would have a new disambiguation, like, "Spike (Next Franchise)." and characters that have never been in Prime, like "Ultra Magnus (Prime)." Kind of confusing. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 21:57, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::No it isn't. The idea that WFC/Exodus are part of a big wad of continuity colloquially known as "Prime", and referred to as "Prime" because the "Prime" cartoon is THE core of the whole shebang, and will liekly BE said core for the near future, is not a hard one. It only gets confusing when you start letting obfuscating pedantry in, at which point you're only making more work for no payoff and making things harder for our readers. A trend which seems to keep coming up over and over again, I've noticed... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:09, 28 February 2011 (EST)
:::I'm pretty sure I've had my share of "obfuscating pedantry" moments, but I completely agree with Siph on this one. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:18, 28 February 2011 (EST)
::::For the record, if people really think that using "(WFC)" would be confounding to readers, that's not a decision I'm very invested in. This discussion has ballooned into bigger issues that I ''do'' feel more strongly about, but the parenthetical itself is very take-it-or-leave-it for me. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 22:39, 28 February 2011 (EST)

I would at the least support migrating characters who have thus far ''only'' appeared in WFC to the appropriate parenthetical.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:55, 1 March 2011 (EST)
:And move them back if they appear in Prime? [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 11:03, 1 March 2011 (EST)
::Yes. I think that would make the most sense to people looking for the characters.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::I am willing to make this compromise for the time being. [[User:Alientraveller|Alientraveller]] 14:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)

==War For Cybertron==
War for cybertron is a relativley new game, but it is a great one. I am kind of new on this website, but to me, it looks like the War For Cybertron title has gotten mixed up with Transformers: Prime, a completley diffrent universe. also, WFC is G1 Canon. All the WFC pages and articles should be labled on G1, MAJOR cleanup is needed. {{unsigned|Holymoses|06:30, March 3, 2011 (EST)}}
:You clearly ''are'' quite new, because we would advise you to read [[Aligned continuity family|this article]] before you start in on this notion. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 06:33, 3 March 2011 (EST)
:In Hasbro's own words: "The TRANSFORMERS brand team would like to confirm that Transformers War for Cybertron video game, Transformers Exodus novel, and the Transformers Prime television show are in the same aligned continuity. Hasbro is creating a single continuity to tell the bulk of our TRANSFORMERS stories going forward." Here's the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/8189/20/ link] to the announcement --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 06:45, 3 March 2011 (EST)
::You aren't completely wrong. The game developers were heavily inspired by G1, and were pretty much making a G1 game as far as they knew. It's just that, like Khajidha said, Hasbro says War for Cybertron is part of the same continuity as Prime, so that's what the wiki goes with. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:00, 4 March 2011 (EST)

Well that still seems weird, since "Prime" has a completley diffrent story, and "Exodus" doesnt connect the two sagas very well. even if its what Hasbro said, i think we should put all this into consideration, Aaron Archer himself said that War for Cybertron was a game set in the G1 Universe. I think its wrong of Hasbro to try and connect the two diffrent Continuities. {{unsigned|Holymoses|09:12, March 4, 2011 (EST)}}
:First of all, when did Aaron Archer say that? Second, Hasbro gets to define what is in each continuity for the simple reason that it is their intellectual property. It may not be to your liking, but it cannot be wrong as they are the ones who determine what is right. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:35, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::Yeah, gonna need a source on that Archer statement. Especially since he's been amongst the ones saying WFC/Exodus is part of the new continuity. Also, weren't a lot of elements in WFC, like Dark Energon, Hasbro mandates from a story bible they supplied the creators (hereby proving that Hasbro's intent was always for it to be part of the new continuity), or am I imagining things again? --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 10:08, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::From what I read about that production bible, it is a result of guys at Hasbro sitting down and "[http://collider.com/roberto-orci-jeff-kline-interview-transformers-prime/75039/ coalescing all the mythologies] that they had institutionally for years. Actually putting it down to paper." It sounds like they were just collecting and not adding new stuff in. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Energon were added ''after'' it was in the game. And what about timing? Orci said Hasbro put together the bible after the movies came out (in mid 2009). The video game came out in mid 2010 with a video game lead time of ??? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:27, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::Unless Dark Energon is actually just the new name for Angolmois energy. The name may have been taken from the video game, but the concept could well have been in the production bible before WFC. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:37, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::What a load of supposition and crap. I hereby dub it "crapposition". I can pretty much say that you are completely wrong. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:38, 4 March 2011 (EST)
:::::[http://www.joystiq.com/2010/05/05/interview-matt-tieger-of-high-moon-studios-on-transformers/ Matt Tieger said] that High Moon started working on WfC when they shipped their "Bourne" game, which according to the accompanying notes was mid-2008, between the first movie and RotF. [http://www.cheatcc.com/extra/interviewtransformerswarforcybertron2.html This interview] talks up the G1 inspiration and then says the WfC storyline is "a completely original story that we made up at High Moon. We worked closely with Hasbro..." The consistent impression I've gotten from several different interviews is that High Moon started from G1 and then made pitches to Hasbro, which Hasbro would provide feedback on, and eventually there was a game. The only people who I've seen actually talk about the 400-page story-bible are the ''Prime'' creators. And if Orci was being literal when he said the bible was put together "after the movie’s came out", then game development would've indeed started earlier. At the very least, it sounds pretty likely that there was some simultaneous creation.
:::::In the end, the chicken-and-egg question is basically moot because either way, WfC is part of the new deal. It doesn't matter who said the words "Dark Energon" first; it's part of the structure that binds all of the pieces, so that's that. But for nitpicking's sake, Starfield's suppositions aren't off-base from the evidence we have. Siph, if you have additional info that clarifies or contradicts any of that, please share.
:::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 19:44, 4 March 2011 (EST)
::::::I, similarly, have found it quite plausible when thinking on the subject to believe that High Moon could have created the idea of Dark Energon, and that Hasbro then said to themselves "We can use THAT!" and put it in the bible. It's certainly outside the realm of possibility, unless you know something we don't, Siph. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 05:24, 5 March 2011 (EST)

:Because nothing whatsoever can change in the millions of years between the WFC era and the Prime cartoon era. And yeah, good luck sourcing that Aaron claim. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:24, 4 March 2011 (EST)
I think that if they were in the game or in Exodus:The Offical History of the War for Cybertron, they should be labled (WFC),but if they poped into the Prime teley-show or comics, they should be labled (Prime).-[ [User:DinoDigger97|DinoDigger97]] 2:11 3 Apil 2011

== Captured-Prey ads ==

One of the things advertised there appears to be a fan-made Megatron min-figure. Seeing as how everybody was upset that the TFSource ad [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive47#TFsource_ad_buy|featured fansproject stuff]], surely, this isn't right either? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 05:33, 8 March 2011 (EST)
:Check the section back up this page titled [[#Project_Wonderful_ads|Project Wonderful ads]]. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 05:59, 8 March 2011 (EST)

== Revenge of the Fallen video game character articles - [X] Scout 1, [X] Scout 2 pages for the same design ==

With the upcoming DOTM games, I thought I should look at the ROTF game articles that were abandoned in 2009 and see if I could do anything for them. I believe it was Derik who made this decision, but I am now wondering if it is necessary to have say [[Aerialbot Scout 1]] and [[Aerialbot Scout 2]], [[Omnibot Scout 1]] and [[Omnibot Scout 2]] (and so on) considering "Scout 1" and "Scout 2" are just the two different colour schemes for these mass produced generic, nameless characters who only differ in terms of textures. Any completed articles on these will have different images, but exactly the same information. Isn't that redundant? Should we perhaps just stick both of each under Aeriabot Scout, Omnibot Scout, Stunticon Scout? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 07:14, 11 March 2011 (EST)
:According to the articles the two Aerialbot Scouts have different health, primary weapon and secondary weapon ratings. Is that enough for separation? I don't know, but it should be considered before making a decision. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 11 March 2011 (EST)
::I don't even know where those stats came from - I don't believe the person who filled them in originally ever explained. Were they from a website, article or guide book? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 11:42, 11 March 2011 (EST)

== Found some much needed images, but... ==

I found them on [http://transformersiv.mforos.com/1519135/8979801-transformers-g1-aventuras-y-nostalgias-que-nunca-moriran/ this site], and I don't speak the language (I think it's Spanish) to ask for their permission to use them. The images are covers of the [[Marvel Books]] titles [[Battle at Oil Valley]], [[Summertime Coloring Book]], and [[Super Activity Book]]. That's right we don't even have an article for that last one. They also have page scans of these and other Marvel Books titles. I don't feel right just taking them for our use here and was wondering if someone who spoke the lingo would contact them for us. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:21, 12 March 2011 (EST)
:Nevermind, Google Chrome finally remembered that it had translational abilities. The poster is offering them for download to all and sundry, so he/she can hardly care if we borrow them. I'll probably still insert a link to the main site out of courtesy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:22, 12 March 2011 (EST)
::After looking at them, I realized that they were Steve Stonebreaker's scans. I have contacted him and received permission to use them here. I'll be adding more soon. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:55, 16 March 2011 (EDT)

== Hey, I've got a new user talk page template request... ==
[[Image:Rebirth1 Hardhead and Blurr.jpg|right|thumb|300px|TOO MANY QUOTES]]
Can we have one that reminds folks that every new thing in Transformers that even vaguely reminds you of an old thing in Transformers IS NOT A REFERENCE AND THAT IS NOT HOW REFERENCES WORK AND STOP PUTTING THEM IN THE "TRANSFORMERS REFERENCES" SECTION. Ahem. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:18, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:You mean like [[Template:notareference|this]]? --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 23:22, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
::Hooray! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 23:30, 13 March 2011 (EDT)
:::Brilliant. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:39, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::That's an oldie, but a goodie. Personally, I'm wondering if there's any template that can be set up for the people that just drown episode articles in quotes... --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 02:42, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::I think we'd first need a consensus on how many quotes are appropriate. [[User:JW|JW]] 07:41, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::It's a conversation that needs to be had, I think. You have to take length of the story into account - there are more quotes in a two hour movie than in a twenty five minute episode. I'd put the early cutoff at around five for episodes, though. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 08:00, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::I like the idera of a mximum of 5 per 30 minutes (or part thereof) for Episodes & movies, but what would be a good size for comics? I'd say around 3 per issue, but it breaks down with short issues and back up stories (i.e.e most of the Marvel UK exclusive stuff...) [[User:G1MarvelBlaster|G1MarvelBlaster]] 10:19, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::I'd set a "soft" limit higher for 30-minute episodes {{m-}} around 10 quotes {{m-}} and I'd allow more than that if the episode was particularly well-written or quotable. I don't think there's any need for a low, hard limit, as I don't think lots of quotes hurt the wiki until we get into "quoting the whole darn episode" territory. Heck, in fact, I might favor a policy of ''judging each quote for itself.'' I.e., if a quote is good/noteworthy/illustrative/funny/wadeva, it can be kept, even if there are two dozen other quotes already. Each must stand on its merits, but there would be no hard cap. [[User:JW|JW]] 11:31, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::Yeah, some episodes happen to have a lot of funny/significant/memorable lines, others don't. If we set a hard cap, we might be damning ourselves to a lot of pointless fights over which quotes deserve to be included under the arbitrary limit. I'm more in favor of making a list of criteria that we can point to when we weed lame quotes out.
:::::::::Oh, and I support making a template. ''Prime'' Soundwave is the best character I can think of to use, but Movie Bumblebee or G1 Wreck-Gar would also be appropriate. Or a shot of G1 Soundwave with a tape inside of him? Can't think of a good header, though...
:::::::::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 11:49, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::I mainly suggested it as a starting point because if it comes down to putting each quote in place based on "which one we like more" the talk pages are going to be absolutely horrible. HOW CAN YOU LEAVE OUT MY FAVORITE QUOTE IT IS SO FUNNY AND RELEVANT. The "5 per 30 minutes" is just a suggestion - obviously an episode that's really funny or poignant can get more. Comics issues we could maybe use pagecount as a starting point. But basically, combine the two ideas. A list of criteria is a good idea, but we also need to avoid having like, thirty quotes for a given story, twelve of which are totally shitty. If we get over five-six quotes, it's time to think about trimming, just because seriously, 90% of TF fiction isn't that goddamned quotable - or there are better places for the quotes. "I don't rock and roll - I burn!" belongs on Inferno's page, not on the episode it appeared in. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 11:51, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::Fair enough. Just so long as the number is sufficiently "soft" that we don't forget that our goal is high quality, not an arbitrarily low quantity. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 12:17, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Exactly. Like I said, I think we can also judiciously use key ''character'' quotes on the ''characters''' pages. Some quotes are very episode/story specific, while others provide insight into a character's personality or mindset. I think that's a good way to winnow the chaff, you know? -hx at work not logged in gotta run
::::::::::::::The 5-6 quotes before we start trimming sounds good, especially if some more individual character based quotes can be moved to the character pages. The big problem I keep seeing with quotes is that too many people want to quote an entire scene. If it goes beyond 3 lines it's probably not what we mean by quote here. And even 3 lines is pushing it. These should really be a single line quip or a two line set up and pay off. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:22, 14 March 2011 (EDT)
::::::::::::::5 to 6 sounds like a good starting point to me as well. Khajidha makes a good point about the definition of quote. That, along with Hooks' point about using key character quotes on that character's article, should be pointed out on [[Help:Example episode article]], once it exists. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] 17:32, 14 March 2011 (EDT)

== Maybe a silly question, can we? ==

Ok, exposing my ignorance here, but isthere a way to search the wiki by alt-mode? If I wanted to know every TF that turns into a Helicopter say? There's not a "helicopter" catagory, so howwould I find them all? Thanks for any help.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:59, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:[[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes]] covers some characters. There's been a few vague proposals to create a new hierarchy of categories for altmodes, but it would be a lot of work, and it's generally shouted down. [[User:JW|JW]] 20:08, 19 March 2011 (EDT)
:I think the current best option if you want to do something like this is TFU.info's Identify section. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 11:00, 30 March 2011 (EDT)

==Grimlock letter==
[[Image:Grimlock letter.jpg|thumb|right]]
I recently acquired this and thought it's exactly the sort of thing we should be covering. I had no idea it even existed until a friend sent it to me and on that thought, should we add letters from Soundwave, Ratchet(?), Dreadwind and Blaster to the Holy Grails? Was there a similar response from the US comic, and do Titan still send these letters out today from Starscream? Enquiring minds want to know. Incidentally, he said he got Tailgate as his free mini-toy. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 15:31, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
:Good find. A letter from Grimlock is pretty awesome. That should go somewhere. The Letters Page page? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:58, 29 March 2011 (EDT)
::I've added a link from there; I'll type it up verbatim if we think it's justified? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] 18:09, 29 March 2011 (EDT)

== Voice actors by series ==

We have a bunch of categories for voice actors by language, but I was wondering if we should have categories for voice actors by series? Would categories like "Beast Wars voice actors" and "Victory voice actors" be useful? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 04:27, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

:That could be useful. It'd be better than looking up cast lists and opening up every character page, at least. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 06:30, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

::Sound like a nice idea to me. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 10:01, 14 April 2011 (EDT)

== "Just Stop" Notice? ==

Do we think there's a role for the following proposed user notice template, for users like Eagc7?

{{messagebox|image_name=War_War_Stop_It.jpg|image_width=225px|width=90%|header=Just Stop|message_text=Please stop editing this wiki. While you haven't done anything ban-worthy (yet), you are not a productive contributor. (The reasons ''why'' are above this notice on your talk page.) So, please, '''just stop.'''}}

Opinions? [[User:JW|JW]] 14:39, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:If one is created, I love this image for it! --[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] 15:35, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::It seems a bit rude, but the image would be ''perfect'' if this is made. --[[User:NCZ|NCZ]] 15:45, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:::If this gets phrased differently, I'd support it. Right now, the text's too rude. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 15:52, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::::I think it is meant to be rude and probably should be rude. This tag is designed to be placed on the talk pages of people who have seemingly ignored the multiple instances of other tags. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 15:57, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

I'm a little iffy on this proposal. I admit that Eagc7 has a very poor grasp of the English language, but I'm a little uncomfortable with telling a person to leave a site just because of that. If you look over his fiction edits (the ones you can read) the posts he has made are accurate, just...occasionally unreadable. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 16:02, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
:I'm with SFH. Eagc7's English seems to be all over the place, but there are times when he gets it more or less correctly and only needs minor typo fixes. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 16:21, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
Whether a person's edits are bad enough (and bad enough all the time enough) to ask them to never post again seems like something that shouldn't be in the hands of, well, everybody. Putting a template up that says you're a bad speller or that you're not using Preview enough... that's pretty straight forward. But I dunno if I'm comfortable with giving us all a tool to shame each other off the wiki entirely. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:49, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:In addition, if someone's edits are so bad (and so consistently bad) that they're more of a nuisance than they are helpful, then that person should probably just be gotten rid of, instead of getting the Middle Finger Personified In A Template. As Detour said, yeah, Eagc7's English could use some work, but he does enough good here that I don't think he's completely poison or anything. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:51, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
I could maybe get behind the idea of a "Stop editing until you've read the complaints on your user page" template for the blissfully unaware people constantly making edits that are being undone as soon as they make them whilst ignoring comments on their user page telling them what they're doing wrong. But a template like THIS, and this sort of behavior in general, is how we end up with trolls that come by and vandalize the wiki on a daily basis for years and years. We could avoid that sort of future headache by just not being all-out douchebags to people even if they're stupid and/or their contributions are annoying. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 17:15, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:I suppose the only problem with making a "read your talk page" template is that they'll never read it. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 18:24, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::: I like this idea, too. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::Got me there. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:36, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:This will not go well. If someone's a real pest here, ban them. If they're being a pest but not quite that bad yet, notify them on their talkpage with whichever templates are already needed, and then if they don't clean up, ban them. We shouldn't be creating--publicly--an underclass of users. If you're allowed to have an account here, you're allowed to post--otherwise we look scummy. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 19:17, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

::This is basically every stereotype of this wiki and its userbase given textbox form. I love it. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 20:33, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

The consensus seems to be against it, and the arguments are all good ones. (Kind of a pity, since the image was so perfect, but...) I withdraw the suggestion. Thanks all for weighing in! [[User:JW|JW]] 20:25, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

:It is a good template despite the rudeness, but it is potentially necessary for extreme conditions as a last resort. --'''[[User:TX55|TX55]]'''''[[User talk:TX55|TALK]]'' 21:01, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

Is it possible that we could reuse that image for another template? Perhaps a Final Warning template, letting users know that if they don't cut their shit out, they're gonna get banned. -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 21:42, 26 April 2011 (EDT)
: Clearly it should be used for a "stop edit/revert warring" template. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:32, 26 April 2011 (EDT)

== Our Blogger blog? ==

To me it appears that our blog doesn't have much use. Our twitter sends out links to occasional pages and our facebook is an easy place to congregate and talk about TFs and not take up our talk pages, but the blog hasn't been used in over half a year.

I'm thinking using it to keep track of current trends and such. We could highlight pages that are being worked on, point out users who have been creating/adding a lot to pages (i.e. Geewunling creating minor GI Joe pages, Chris McFeely going crazy with the Japanese food tie-ins). This way an editor or lurker who happens to miss a few days can easily catch up rather than having to sift through the new pages and new files (and even then if a page has just had an entirely new writeup from a stub, it wouldn't show up there).

Any thoughts on this? --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:21, 28 April 2011 (EDT)

:I think it would be a good way to draw attention to obscure and/or new stuff on the Wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 07:46, 2 May 2011 (EDT)
::I think so, too, but there are questions left unanswered if we want to go ahead with this. Who would be given control over the posts? Should it be extra mod duties or instead given to some other veteran editors? If so, how many? Would we want weekly updates or something with less frequency? Overall, who is in the current position to grant other users the power to add posts. I can see this as a useful too, but like many things on this wiki, we need to come up with some sort of procedure before it comes to fruition. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:33, 3 May 2011 (EDT)

==TFwiki in the past week==
Could someone tell me why the TFwiki has been down/inaccessible for most of the time in the past week? [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:04, 10 May 2011 (EDT)
:I would wager "massive spikes in traffic, as DotM stuff hits," which has happened before.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:20, 10 May 2011 (EDT)
::I thought traffic wouldn't be a likely cause since the third movie is still over a month away. Guess I was wrong. Thanks! [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 02:27, 10 May 2011 (EDT)
:::There's at least some clamor now that the toys are out there.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 02:46, 10 May 2011 (EDT)
::::Technical explanation or non-technical? Traffic HAS picked up a bit, the wiki hardware (such as it is) is slightly overtaxed, and we need to start doing some math on what we can separate into other servers, and how much it'll cost to do so.--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 16:15, 13 May 2011 (EDT)
:::::Cowboy time. We've moved the application server and cache to another box, and synced over the contents. If anything's missing, we can try to sync it over from the old webserver, but it wouldn't be off by more than a few minutes, so here's hoping that we're back in business!--[[User:McFly|McFly]] 15:43, 17 May 2011 (EDT)