MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Dull surprise

2009-03-30T15:25:42Z

Ronimus Prime:

While I do find this article kind of funny... it also seems a little more mean-spirited than I am comfortable with. Plus... is this really a catchphrase outside of #wiigii!? If it's caught on like wildfire all over Allspark or something, even if started by #wiigii!, that's fine... --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 16:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
: Well, considering how much of the Allspark is in #wiigii! these days, that's hard to determine! --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
:: I believe its more wiigii/Allspark thing. I've never seen it before, until I started reading this wiki. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 17:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
::: It popped up on ATT often enough in reference to DW art from not-#wiigii! people. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:44, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I actually don't think Prime's expression is dull surprise, there. Actually, I fail to see how something without a mouth can do the dull surprise expression. Isn't it kinda reliant on the slack jaw?
[[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 11:25, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

The many deaths of Optimus Prime

2009-03-22T02:46:01Z

Ronimus Prime: /* See also */

[[Image:Totaled-openingsplash.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Oh, he's gone and died again. Botheration! Most inconvenient.]]
Across all continuities (except for the [[Movie (franchise)|live-action-movie-verse]], ''so far'', and ''[[Robots in Disguise (cartoon)|Robots in Disguise]]'', though [[The Final Battle (RID episode)|only just]]), '''Optimus Prime dies a lot.''' This happens for various reasons:

* It allows for him to be replaced by [[Hot Rod|a new character]] (and thus [[To sell toys|a new toy]]).
* It allows for him to come back from the dead in a new body (again, a new toy).
* It's dramatic (in theory).
* It makes him into something of a [[Jesus|Christ]]-figure.

Some examples:

==Generation 1 Cartoon Continuity==
===''The Transformers: The Movie''===
[[Image:DeadPrime.gif|left|180px|thumb|"Either that wallpaper goes, or I do."]]
* The best-known example is from ''[[The Transformers: The Movie|The Transformers: The Movie]]'', in which [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] dies of wounds from his battle with [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]. Famously, his body turns gray as he dies. ([[Misconceptions and urban legends about Transformers|Urban legend]] says his body also ''crumbles,'' but no such footage is known to exist.) Being the first time he died, it was actually unexpected.

{{-}}

===Season 3===
[[Image:Optimusg1zombie.jpg|right|200px|thumb|"Mind if I smoke?"]]
* He returns from the dead twice; first as a zombie under [[Quintesson|Quintesson]] control in "[[Dark Awakening|Dark Awakening]]" as part of a plan to destroy the Autobots, only to die again when he overcomes the Quintesson control through the power of the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]] and possibly the strength of his will, and sacrifices himself to save the Autobots; then is brought to life again (for reals, yo) in "[[The Return of Optimus Prime|The Return of Optimus Prime]]".

{{-}}

==Generation 1 Marvel Comics==
[[Image:Pmoptimusprimedeath.jpg|right|200px|thumb|"I swear, I was wearing my faceplate when I left the house this morning."]]
In the Marvel continuity, dying and coming back was practically a ''hobby'' for Prime.

*In "[[Afterdeath!|Afterdeath!]]", Prime, after failing to live up to his moral principles while playing a video game, volunteers to be killed. The [[Autobots|Autobots]] launch his funeral bier into space. Fortunately, the creator of the video game, [[Ethan Zachary|Ethan Zachary]], saves a backup copy of Prime's mind on a [[Floppy disk|floppy disk]]. We first meet this virtual Prime sixteen issues later in "[[Pretender to the Throne!|Pretender to the Throne!]]". He gets his new [[Powermaster|Powermaster]] body two issues thereafter, in "[[People Power!|People Power!]]".

*About thirty issues later, Prime sacrifices himself to defeat [[Unicron|Unicron]], in "[[On the Edge of Extinction!|On the Edge of Extinction!]]". However, his Powermaster partner, [[Hi-Q|Hi-Q]], survives, and almost immediately begins babbling about how he's ''really'' Optimus Prime. This turns out to be true, and [[The Last Autobot|The Last Autobot]] metamorphoses Hi-Q into Prime (with a new [[Actionmaster|Actionmaster]] body) in [[End of the Road! (US)|the last issue of the original Marvel US series]].

{{-}}

==Generation 2 Marvel Comics==
[[Image:Swarmoptimus.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Unleashing the light of the Matrix upon a great evil. Again.]]
*This Prime wasn't done dying yet. His adventures continued in the G2 comics, and he died defeating the [[Swarm|Swarm]] in the final issue of that series, "[[A Rage in Heaven!|A Rage in Heaven!]]". The Swarm reconstituted him three pages later (in a body based on his then-current [[Combat Hero|Combat Hero]] toy).

{{-}}

==The Headmasters==
* In ''[[The Headmasters (cartoon)|The Headmasters]]'', <s>Optimus Prime</s> Convoy died again- in another act of self sacrifice, of course- when he walked into [[Vector Sigma|Vector Sigma]] and tried to bring it back under control directly in "[[Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime|Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime]]". His body turned gray as he died, followed by a (likely only symbolic) scene of him telling [[Rodimus Prime (G1)|Rodimus Prime]] that it would be his responsibility to keep leading the Autobots and to continue his work, seen as a transparent, light-haloed figure against the sky and heard in third person narration as Rodimus stared into the sky. (Then again, given the [[Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime|proven]] existence of [[Starscream (G1)|gho]][[Alpha Trion (G1)|sts]]...)

==Return of Convoy==
*Convoy returned as a zombie once again this time as [[False Convoy|False Convoy]] resurrected by [[Dark Nova|Dark Nova]] in a plot against the Autobots, but this plan went awry when the other [[Battlestars|Battlestars]] managed to restore Convoy's spark with the power of the [[Zodiac|Zodiac]], evolving him into Star Convoy. {{storylink|Return of Convoy|Return of Convoy}}'' {{storylink|The Battlestars|The Battlestars}}''

==Japanese Generation 2==
* In the Japanese version of ''Generation 2'', Optimus Prime was badly wounded by Megatron's [[Fusion cannon|fusion cannon]] and almost died, but was resurrected and evolved yet again, this time into [[Laser Rod|Laser Rod]] Optimus Prime, by the power of the [[Creation Matrix|Matrix]].

==Beast Era==
[[Image:Smelt Prime.JPG|right|200px|thumb|Actually, he's still alive, but dying.]]
In ''[[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' and ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]],'' you could mark the end of a season by the near-death experience of one [[Optimus Primal|Optimus]] or [[Optimus Prime (G1)|another]]...

*At [[Other Voices, Part 2|the end of the first season]] of ''Beast Wars,'' [[Optimus Primal|Optimus Primal]] piloted a bomb-equipped stasis pod in an attempt to destroy the [[Planet Buster|Planet Buster]]. Unfortunately, [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] had sealed the pod's hatch, and Optimus blew up with it. [[Coming of the Fuzors (Part 2)|Early in the second season]] (a few hours later as far as the characters were concerned), [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] managed to unite Optimus's drifting [[Spark|spark]] with a blank [[Protoform|protoform]], thus bringing him back to life (and in a new [[Transmetal|Transmetal]] body, too).

*At [[The Agenda (Part III)|the end of second season]], the ''Beast Wars'' Megatron came very close to killing the original Optimus Prime. But [[Optimal Situation|Prime didn't ''quite'' die]], so we really shouldn't count it.

*At [[End of the Line|the end of the first season]] of ''Beast Machines,'' Optimus and Megatron had a cataclysmic battle, using the energies of [[Vector Sigma|Vector Sigma]] and the [[Plasma Energy Chamber|Plasma Energy Chamber]]. This would have destroyed [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], but Optimus took the warring energies into himself and disintegrated. However, his spark was trapped within the [[Oracle|Oracle]], and the other [[Maximals|Maximals]] convinced him to return to the real world at [[Fallout|the start of second season]]. The Oracle kindly gave him a new body (which, believe it or not, was ''not'' a new toy).

*At [[Endgame Pt. III: Seeds of the Future|the end of the series]], Optimus gave his life to defeat Megatron once and for all, pushing him into the [[Technorganic|technorganic]] core of the planet. In assorted ancillary media ([[Universe (2003 comic)|convention comics]], [[Beast Wars Reborn|text]] [[Alternators (toyline)|stories]]), he comes back to life yet again.

(Strangely, the end of the third season of ''Beast Wars'' had no Optimus deaths whatsoever! A half-dozen ''[[Depth Charge|o]][[Tigerhawk|t]][[Dinobot II|h]][[Inferno (BW)|e]][[Quickstrike (BW)|r]][[Rampage (BW)|s]]'' died, but not Optimus. Bizzare.)

==Armada cartoon==
[[Image:Sshot-arm-39-4.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Now Optimus, don't go all to pieces. You say you have to split? Well, you're a chip off the ol' block.]]
* In the ''[[Armada (cartoon)|Armada]]'' episode "[[Crisis|Crisis]]", [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] used his body to block the blast of [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]]'s [[Hydra Cannon|Hydra Cannon]], protecting the [[Earth|Earth]]. When the cannon's energy is spent, we see Optimus turn grayish-white, then ''actually'' crumble to bits. A bunch of [[Mini-Cons|Mini-Cons]] use the [[Matrix|Matrix]] to resurrect him [[Miracle|three episodes later]].

{{-}}

==Armada comic==
<div class="thumb tleft"><div class="thumbinner" style="width:202px;">[[IN THIS TEMPLE AS IN THE HEARTS OF THE PEOPLE FOR WHOM HE SAVED THE UNION THE MEMORY OF OPTIMUS PRIME IS ENSHRINED FOREVER|<img alt="IN THIS TEMPLE AS IN THE HEARTS OF THE PEOPLE FOR WHOM HE SAVED THE UNION THE MEMORY OF OPTIMUS PRIME IS ENSHRINED FOREVER" src="/w2/images2/thumb/9/96/Wc_prime.jpg/200px-Wc_prime.jpg" width="200" height="244" border="0" class="thumbimage" />]] <div class="thumbcaption"><div class="magnify">[[Enlarge|<img src="/w2/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png" width="15" height="11" alt="" />]]</div><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_memorial#Interior" class="extiw" title="wikipedia:Lincoln_memorial"><center>IN THIS TEMPLE<br />
AS IN THE HEARTS OF THE PEOPLE<br />
FOR WHOM HE SAVED THE UNION<br />
THE MEMORY OF OPTIMUS PRIME<br />
IS ENSHRINED FOREVER</center></a></div></div></div>
* The corpse of an [[Optimus Prime (Worlds Collide)|Optimus Prime]] (killed by Unicron) from an alternate universe appeared in the ''[[Armada (comic)|Armada]]'' comic issue titled "[[Worlds Collide, Part 1|Worlds Collide, Part 1]]". Yep, practically all we know about this Optimus is that he died. He doesn't turn gray, but his colors are faded.

{{-}}

==Universe==
[[Image:Nemesisprimetfuclone.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Technically, this is the clone.]]
* The corpse of an Optimus Prime (killed by [[Megazarak|Megazarak]]) from an alternate universe was cloned by Unicron to create [[Nemesis Prime (Universe 2003)|Nemesis Prime]]. The clone, before he became Nemesis, appeared in ''[[Universe (2003 comic)|Universe]]'' comic issue "[[Balancing Act, Part 2|Balancing Act, Part 2]]". Once again, practically all we know about this Optimus is that he died.

==Movies==
<s>It'll happen. Eventually. Trust us.</s>

{{-}}

==Transformers Animated==
[[Image:TFAnimated transformandrollout DEATH.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Dead in the third episode for 75 seconds. It's a new record!]]
* In the third part of the ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Animated]]'' movie, "[[Transform and Roll Out!|Transform and Roll Out!]]", [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]] dies after his battle with [[Starscream (Animated)|Starscream]]. Like the Generation 1 Prime before him, he turns gray upon dying. Seventy-five seconds later, [[Sari Sumdac|Sari Sumdac]] uses the mysterious [[Key|Key]] to revive him. It's a new record, Primey!

{{-}}

==Kiss Players==
Sometime between [[The Transformers: The Movie|2005]] and [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|2010]], [[Marissa Faireborn|Marissa Faireborn]] revives Optimus using the Galvatron cells in her body. Ultimately, all the cells are put back into Galvatron, and without them, Optimus promptly dies again.

==See also==
*[[Prime Spark|Prime Spark]] - The short story explores the question of where <s>all</s> [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|most]] of those Optimus-es go when they die. (Answer: someplace dull.)

* [[:Image:Dirge DeathSerpentor.jpg|killed]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathSwarm.jpg|off]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathTimelines.jpg|in]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathUnicron.jpg|many]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathArmada.jpg|continuities]] (but less than [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]]).

* [[:Image:Sentinel prime lou.jpg|who]] [[:Image:Sentinel prime dw.jpg|must]] [[Megatron Origin issue 4|die]].

[[Category:Stories]]

G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: Black Horizon

2008-05-27T01:25:34Z

Ronimus Prime: /* Collections */

{{disambig2|the crazily awesome Devil's Due crossover with the Pretenders, Cobra-La and Unicron|other stories with G.I. Joe|G.I. Joe crossovers}}

'''''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: Black Horizon''''' is the fourth GI Joe/Transformers crossover miniseries published by [[Devil's Due Press]]. It was published in 2007 as two double-sized issues, and is set in the [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers continuity|Devil's Due crossover continuity]].

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">''Black Horizon'' issues:</font>'''
|-align=center
|| [[Black Horizon issue 1|#1]] | [[Black Horizon issue 2|#2]]
|}

''Preceded by: [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: The Art of War]]''

==Overview==
The book is in continuity with the previous three minis, following up on the events of ''[[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: The Art of War]]''. It focuses on later characters and concepts from both franchises, with more obscure (and stereotypically less popular) groups such as [[Cobra-La]] and the [[Pretender]]s serving prominent roles. Much of the series is flagrantly over-the-top in concept, and despite its world-shaking premises, the book refuses to take itself overly seriously.

The action centers on the coming of [[Unicron]] to [[Earth]], a first in Transformers fiction. Unicron came once before in ages past, but the ancient underground kingdom of Cobra-La forced a negotiation: they would retreat underground, allow humankind to proliferate, and Unicron would return later to scour Earth when humanity had covered it with tasty technology and become more fit to work as slaves inside of Unicron.

Cobra-La's only mistake is allowing [[Joe Colton]], the original G.I. Joe, to remain as a prisoner in their confines. Colton meets up with a small team sent to track down Cobra-La, while [[Flint]] and [[Cosmos]] attempt to take on Unicron himself!

==Creative team==
The series was written by [[Tim Seely]], with pencils by venerable ''[[Generation 1]]'' comic artist [[Andrew Wildman]].

==Collections==
* ''[[G.I. Joe vs. The Transformers Omnibus]]: Vols 1{{n-}}4'' <small>(January 30, 2008) ISBN 978-1934692059</small>

[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Devil's Due titles]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: Black Horizon

2008-05-27T01:25:06Z

Ronimus Prime: /* Collections */

{{disambig2|the crazily awesome Devil's Due crossover with the Pretenders, Cobra-La and Unicron|other stories with G.I. Joe|G.I. Joe crossovers}}

'''''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: Black Horizon''''' is the fourth GI Joe/Transformers crossover miniseries published by [[Devil's Due Press]]. It was published in 2007 as two double-sized issues, and is set in the [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers continuity|Devil's Due crossover continuity]].

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">''Black Horizon'' issues:</font>'''
|-align=center
|| [[Black Horizon issue 1|#1]] | [[Black Horizon issue 2|#2]]
|}

''Preceded by: [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: The Art of War]]''

==Overview==
The book is in continuity with the previous three minis, following up on the events of ''[[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: The Art of War]]''. It focuses on later characters and concepts from both franchises, with more obscure (and stereotypically less popular) groups such as [[Cobra-La]] and the [[Pretender]]s serving prominent roles. Much of the series is flagrantly over-the-top in concept, and despite its world-shaking premises, the book refuses to take itself overly seriously.

The action centers on the coming of [[Unicron]] to [[Earth]], a first in Transformers fiction. Unicron came once before in ages past, but the ancient underground kingdom of Cobra-La forced a negotiation: they would retreat underground, allow humankind to proliferate, and Unicron would return later to scour Earth when humanity had covered it with tasty technology and become more fit to work as slaves inside of Unicron.

Cobra-La's only mistake is allowing [[Joe Colton]], the original G.I. Joe, to remain as a prisoner in their confines. Colton meets up with a small team sent to track down Cobra-La, while [[Flint]] and [[Cosmos]] attempt to take on Unicron himself!

==Creative team==
The series was written by [[Tim Seely]], with pencils by venerable ''[[Generation 1]]'' comic artist [[Andrew Wildman]].

==Collections==
* ''[[G.I. Joe VS. The Transformers Omnibus]]: Vols 1{{n-}}4'' <small>(January 30, 2008) ISBN 978-1934692059</small>

[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Devil's Due titles]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: The Art of War

2008-05-27T01:24:38Z

Ronimus Prime: /* Collections */

{{disambig2|the rockin' Devil's Due crossover with the techno-organic Serpent O.R.|other stories with G.I. Joe|G.I. Joe crossovers}}
[[Image:Art of War tpb.jpg|thumb|right|200px|Son of Megatron, the sequel]]
'''''The Art of War''''' is a five-issue miniseries published by [[Devil's Due Press]] in 2006. It is a sequel to Devil's Due's previous two ''G.I. Joe'' crossovers, set in the [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers continuity|Devil's Due crossover continuity]].

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">''The Art of War'' issues:</font>'''
|-align=center
|| [[The Art of War issue 1|#1]] | [[The Art of War issue 2|#2]] | [[The Art of War issue 3|#3]] | [[The Art of War issue 4|#4]] | [[The Art of War issue 5|#5]]
|}

''Preceded by: [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II]]''<br>
''Followed by: [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: Black Horizon]]''

==Overview==
After the deactivation of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and the catastrophic time traveling events on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], the [[Autobot]]s have made serious progress against the [[Decepticon]]s. However a [[Cobra]] attack against [[G.I. Joe]]'s base on [[Earth]] alters the balance of the war by unleashing [[Serpent O.R.]], an artificial super-soldier who proves to be nigh-unstoppable, and is imbued not only with the knowledge of past Earthen leaders, but the personality of Megatron himself! He soon travels to Cybertron and re-unites the scattered Decepticons into a force to be reckoned with once more.

==Creative team==
The series was penned by experienced ''G.I. Joe'' writer [[Tim Seeley]] with art by [[Joe Ng]], [[Alex Milne]], and [[James Raiz]].

==Notes==
Each issue had at least two variant covers offered in equal ratio; all of the "A" covers could connect to form a single image. Also available for purchase, at conventions and online, were a series of [[Udon]]-exclusive covers that could form a single image.

==Collections==
* ''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers: The Art of War'' TPB <small>(September, 2006) ISBN 9781932796643</small>
* ''[[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers Omnibus]]'' <small>(January 30, 2008) ISBN 9781934692059</small>

[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Devil's Due titles]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers

2008-05-27T01:24:09Z

Ronimus Prime: /* Collections */

{{disambig2|the fun Devil's Due comic with the Transformers as Cobra vehicles|other stories with G.I. Joe|G.I. Joe crossovers}}

[[Image:GI Joe vs Transformers tpb.jpg|thumb|right|200px|A pensive Prime]]

'''''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers''''' was the first [[G.I. Joe]]/Transformers crossover published by [[Devil's Due]], interestingly while the Transformers comic license was with [[Dreamwave Productions]] at the time. It established a new [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers continuity|Devil's Due crossover continuity]].

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers'' issues:</font>'''
|-align=center
|| [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 1|#1]] | [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 2|#2]] | [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 3|#3]] | [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 4|#4]] | [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 5|#5]] | [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers issue 6|#6]]
|}

''Followed by: [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II]]''

==Overview==
''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers'' opens with [[Cobra]] finding the buried ''[[Ark (G1)|Ark]]'' and the inert Transformers within. Cobra reformats the Transformers{{m-}}[[Autobot]] and [[Decepticon]]{{m-}}into traditional Cobra war machines and forces them to do Cobra Commander's bidding. When the Transformers break free of Cobra's control, all hell breaks loose...

Several major Transformers and G.I. Joe characters die in the course of the story, a facet of the storyline's tendency to play fast and loose with its source material. Pulp hero moments such as Optimus Prime's revival also began to establish the series' reputation as a fun and occasionally silly collection of stories.

The series spawned three sequels (as of 2007), though the concept of the Transformers with Cobra vehicle modes was dropped after the first one.

==Creative team==
''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers'' was written by [[Josh Blaylock]] with pencils by [[Mike S. Miller]].

==Collections==
* ''G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers'' TPB <small>(August 11, 2004) ISBN 1932796096</small>
* ''[[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers Omnibus]]'' <small>(January 30, 2008) ISBN 9781934692059</small>
[[Image:GI Joe vs Transformers hc.jpg|thumb|right|200px|No matter how the story turned out, this is just cool!]]

[[Category:Generation 1]]
[[Category:Devil's Due titles]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Jesus

2008-05-10T21:42:48Z

Ronimus Prime: Realized I wasn't signed in.

Does this article really need to exist? What does it really have to do with Transformers? Am I missing some subtle TF in-joke?
:[[User:Omnisvalidus|Omnisvalidus]] 08:49, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

:Jesus was referenced in the Dreamworks Transformers movie, so it's reasonable to have an article describing his relevance in the TF mythos. Hence the emphasis on his status as a moral exemplar implied by the phrase "What Would Jesus Do?", the car thing, and the cross symbol over anything of theological substance, and the snarky sentence about a possible connection to that Christmas holiday Transformers have repeatedly encountered. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 09:06, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

:This article seems like a biiig stretch to me, too. Yes, the word "Jesus" has been spoken a few times in Transformers fiction. I'm not sure that really justifies the article. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 17:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

::And yet we already have [[Frijole]] in the Gods category. Are we going to delete that too? -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 19:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
:::Frojole doesn't read like an unencyclopedia entry. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:29, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
::::Plus, "Frijole" largely serves as a wry commentary on the stereotyping of Carlos. This article just doesn't strike me as having that much of a point to it, and seems random almost to the point of off-topicness. [[User:TVsGrady|TVsGrady]] 20:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's an article worth having, but this version is not done brilliantly. I feel like it should be done in the same way as articles like [[Nicholas]], acting as if the references in Transformers fiction are the only existing information anywhere. Maybe Jesus (Movie) ''wasn't'' a carpenter, who knows? --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 20:26, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

:That part came from the pre-existing [[Christmas]] article. I've removed it from both since, yes, Transformers have never been seen learning about the trades practiced by incarnate human deities. What else do you think is too self-aware, the possible connection to Christmas? -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 22:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, it's had the tobedeleted tag for 12 days since the issue was last (and first) discussed inconclusively. If there are no objections, I shall remove the tag on the assumption that it's not getting deleted no matter how long the tag stays there. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 00:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

:We have [[:Category:To be deleted|bunches of articles]] that have been tagged for deletion way longer than that. It doesn't mean the page belongs. It just means nobody deleted it yet. If you want to save the article, how about rewriting it, since nobody in this talk page said they liked it? Andrusi at least said he might support it if it were better. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 14:10, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

::The rewrite would be... difficult in-universe. Has INRI ever been namechecked outside of the movie? (Maybe Paul Charteris's flashback to his time studying to be a priest mentions it...) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
:::Only on the TF Wiki would the Son of God be considered non-relevant. I'm amused. I would say we '''keep''' the article in the spirit of silly pages, but this whole wiki is snarky enough that it doesn't need separate pages for in-jokes. --[[User:Slander|Slander]] 13:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

It's overall just not a good idea, it will spark quite some wrong reactions. [[User:Rhinox555|Decepticon Rhinox]] 18:14, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
: As a Christian in possession of a sense of humor, I disagree. I love the fact this article exists and think it's hilarious. [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 21:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Jeff Glen Bennett

2008-05-09T17:55:56Z

Ronimus Prime:

You knw, that, since someone put Candlejack on this page, we should cut it off somewh [[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 17:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
:I agree. You can't mention Candlejack without something like that happ --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 17:34, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
::How about not in the middle of the goddamn show name? And maybe an {{m-}}? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
:::Hyphens ruin the joke.--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 16:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
::::I need to watch more cartoons, I almost corrected the joke.[[User:Spriteless|Spriteless]] 05:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

This may be a bit out of place, but is it just me or does Jeff sound like he's imitating David Hyde Pierce in his role as Prowl? [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 22:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
:Ha! I thought the same thing. Like... Ninja Hyde Pierce. - [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 23:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
::When I first saw the show, I had recently played some "Baldur's Gate", and I recognized Prowl as sounding like a less depressed, more robot version of Xan (depressed elf mage). Course, that was partially cause of this guy being the same voice actor. Just a little "I thought I'd let you know since it was on my mind". --[[User:71.121.142.173|71.121.142.173]] 09:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
:::My thoughts were more Niles the Ninja, which is the most hilarious thing ever if you watch Frasier. XD [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 17:55, 9 May 2008 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Grand Mal

2008-05-06T17:39:01Z

Ronimus Prime: /* caption */

Is the story actually named "Singularity Ablyss", not Singularity Abyss? [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 14:23, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
: Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:48, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

== Toy pic? ==

Shouldn't it have a picture of the toy? Cuz if it should, I think I got one ''somewhere''... [[User:FanOfTransformers|TF's Biggest Fan EVER]] 14:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:Yeah, I do. [[User:FanOfTransformers|TF's Biggest Fan EVER]] 15:37, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

== caption ==

who would want dave to tell them if they'll dream? who is this "dave" anyway?? [[User:ShinkisRule|ShinkisRule]] 21:33, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
: It's a reference to a line by the HAL 9000 from the book and film 2001: A Space Oddysey, IIRC. [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 17:39, 6 May 2008 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Jeff Glen Bennett

2008-04-30T22:07:07Z

Ronimus Prime:

Talk:Headmaster (Animated)

2008-04-25T15:49:07Z

Ronimus Prime:

So, judging by the picture he's ''not'' a human villain?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 01:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
: I wouldn't rule out his humanness. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
:Most Headmasters ''do'' need suits to combine with their partners. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 03:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Am I nuts, or does Headmaster look like an evil version of Fort Max's head?--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 19:08, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
:Kinda. It's might be hard for others, what with proportions in this series, but I can see it..-- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 19:10, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
::It seems more apparent to me on the toy than on the animated model, with there being some parallels in the the shape of the antennae off the sides and way the forehead is shaped. I think it's similar to the old Fort Max animation/comics model than the original toy. And he is named Headmaster, of course, but I'm not going to push the point, since it's even a little vague to me--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 21:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

::The ear-fangles definitely seem at least ''inspired'' by Fort Max. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 23:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
:::I think the design, particularly the ear things, harken more to Marvel's Galactus than to Fort Max. But, to each his own. [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 15:49, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

==Annoying==
Is it me, or did they go out of their way to make this guy the most annoying character ever? -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 17:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
:He beats out Wheelie, Daniel and even Nightscream, so, yeah. [[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 17:46, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

A super-lame idea; re-write the entire article...in ''leet-speek''. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] 15:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
:Should I... Or shouldn't I?--[[User:Dynamus Prime|Dynamus Prime]] 15:20, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
::You very much shouldn't.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 15:27, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

==Lagann?==
Honestly-really, it ''does'' look like the exposed brain motif of the Headmaster unit hearkens visually to this Lagann doohickey. There's pretty unanimous opinion on Allspark that Bumblebee's glowing-hand dance from "Nature Calls" was a Lagann ref, and if that is correct, it's reasonable to expect the animators could have put in another one. There's no harm in saying that, albeit the 1200+ word length of the typical Lagann fanboy edits showing up here recently is way the hell overkill.{{unsigned|74.73.174.144}}
:It's nice to know there's a concensus forming. However, we'd still prefer to have firmer evidence for something like this. See my comment on [[User_talk:143.239.7.2|143.239.7.2's Talk page]]. If animation staff members attend BotCon or Comic-Con International, I'm sure the question will come up, and with luck, it'll receive a straight answer that will settle the matter.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 02:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
:Giant robot head does not a Lagann reference automatically make. You know what also has a robot head that turns into a robot that can attach to other bodies? Fortress Maximus. And Chromedome. And Scorponok. And Hardhead. And Squeezeplay. And every other Headmaster ever. So no, they're pretty much grasping at straws until Derrick Wyatt actually says somewhere, "Hey, yes, I dumped a bunch of Gurren Lagann references into Animated and Headmaster is one of them."--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 02:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I swear to ''God'', if I have to hear about how some arbitrary thing in Animated is "totally a Gurren Lagann reference" once more, I think I'm going to snap and kill someone. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Category talk:Things that don't exist

2007-10-25T20:05:47Z

Ronimus Prime:

It's a '''song.''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:13, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

:KILL --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 04:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

::http://www.qwantz.com/fanart/Things_That_Dont_Exist.mp3
:: (redirect to where?) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I just want to comment on how awesome it is that this article doesn't actually exist. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 21:19, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
: Someone made it exist a while back, but we had them killed. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

: Anyone else think this cateogory is actually important enough that we should set it up? Just because something deosn't exist doesn't mean it won't have an impact. --[[User:Nemesis Primal|Nemesis Primal]] 17:42, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:: It's a joke category. It really only "exists" to be on the [[Decepticon Matrix]] page. I'd rather ditch all mention of it than make it a real category. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
:::I dunno... we seem to have a pretty decent collection of them now. Even if you ignore the redirect and the candidate for deletion, there's the Decepticon Matrix, the Ultimate Weapon, and Planet X. There are probably some other things somewhere that would fit in nicely. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] 20:49, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
::::Even so, no reason to create the link. The category still works. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::And as much as I'm filled with HATRED at the mere mention of the idea of this category... Andrusi's first point is right. It IS pretty funny that the category doesn't exist. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 01:41, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::I used to think this category existing was a bad idea, but I'm kinda starting to rethink that, just a bit. There's actually a fair amount of TF stuff that would fit under "Things that don't exist." Transtech. Dark Glass. Unreleased toys could be a subcategory. I dunno, it may have some merit after all. Or not. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 02:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::Exactly... And some of the things in this category, while not real, have been major players in an episode, or, in the case of Planet X, an ongoing storyline. If everyone's dead set on the category not technicly being here, I'll back down as long as it's still functional... Just keep an eye out for peple who remove things from the category just because it isn't there. You know someone's gonna show up and do that without loking to see why the category isn't there. --[[User:Nemesis Primal|Nemesis Primal]] 18:31, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::Frankly, Planet X shouldn't even be in the category. It did exist at one time. The original entry (and the category) was based off of packaging writeup, which gave an incomplete story. We shouldn't have things in the category that existed at some point in time, or we're gonna hafta start piling it full of dead people. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:00, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
:::::::::I think that sooner or later this should either be made into an actual category, or just gotten rid of altogether. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 19:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
::::::::::I think as long as there ARE things that don't exist (like Transtech and Dark Glass) that are worthy of getting entries, the category should stay. The category not existing itself is like [[The weather in London]]. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 04:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
But... they DO exist. There are existing Transtech prototypes and hardcopies, there's a Dark Glass early draft. I really don't see why we need this category. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:35, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I liked it better when this category was non-existent. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 12:57, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
:I think we need to either actually ''have'' this category, or just get rid of it altogether. Dead category links at the bottom of a bunch of articles as part of the joke will inevitably result in the category being created, over and over. Plus, they look ugly. We should either keep the category around this time, or ditch the joke. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 13:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
::I'm in favor of the "get rid of it altogether" option, particularly since the whole idea behind this category was "borrowed" from Uncyclopedia to begin with. --[[User:TVsGrady|TVsGrady]] 19:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
:::I'm not so sure. One of the main points of the having categories is allow for people to move between related topics more easily. As M stated above, some things got to a certain point, but inevitably failed to see the light of day. Personally when I first saw the category, I started looking at the items within it. The fact that it exists is a joke in itself, without it having to be an empty, red link. The first time I saw it was probably the funniest thing I've ever seen in this entire wiki; a category for [[Scale]]. The joke in itself is that there are pages in it at all, and making it not exist, while amusing at first, only leads to more and more people making it. I say, consider keeping it as a joke on certain pages that don't have any other categories, or are appropriate for the category. It helps organize the wiki just a little bit and helps nerds like myself navigate better when we get curious about similar subject. [[User:King Starscream|King Starscream]] 12:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

:::No, it was added on a whim when I was writing the Decepticon Matrix article, and it's a reference to a song title. (See the top of the article.) Walky corrected my grammar on the title's proper spelling, and it's been around ever since, slowly accumulating more reasons to exist. I've never heard of ''unencyclopedia''.
:::I admit, I don't see why the cat shouldn't exist (other than Walky finding it hilarious.) I think the 'cat should exist have a very good explanation, or it should not exist at all. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 14:58, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

::::I'll admit, there should be a good reason. And Uncyclopedia is a joke within itself, ranking at number one on a list of the worst jokes in it. Either way, I do see the song reference, too. I suppose the best thing to do is leave it in limbo until enough non-existant things are made to deem worth putting in. [[User:King Starscream|King Starscream]] 03:42, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to say I love love love love this category, whether it technically "exists" or not. But it's funnier if it self-referentially also doesn't exist. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 16:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
:Man, I wish I could protect a nonexistent page. I hate deleting this thing every other week. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:08, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

::And, uh.... crap, I'm sorry. I saw it appear on my watch list, so I went to it, and it looked all the world to me like it was existing again, so I pointed it out. And thus ended up accidentally re-creating it.
::<font size=-2>Here's my badge and gun, sir.</font>
::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 05:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

:::Awww, it's okay, it was an accident! I've made much stupider boo-boos than that, and Walky hasn't banned me yet!
:::...though I'm sure the temptation was there. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:24, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
::::KuuuuphALLLLLDT! *shakes fist* --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 11:49, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

SHIT. I confess... it was me!!! SORRY! --[[User:Starcrunch|Starcrunch]] 18:23, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
:I, for one, would like to reaffirm my previously stated support for removing all the redlinks to this non-category, thus ending an unoriginal botched joke once and for all.--[[User:TVsGrady|TVsGrady]] 19:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
:I say it should stay non-existant. It's one of my favorite things on this wiki, and, dare I say it, it's the essence of this Wiki's attitude. EDIT: Adding my signature again, realized I wasn't signed in. [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 20:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

The Burden Hardest to Bear

2007-10-24T16:53:02Z

Ronimus Prime: Simple correction of season. Someone had said it was season 2.

'''[[Generation 1 (cartoon)|Generation One]] > [[Generation 1 (cartoon)#Season 3|Season 3]]'''

An overwhelmed [[Hot Rod|Rodimus Prime]] has the [[Matrix of Leadership]] taken from him.

==Detailed synopsis==
At the dawn, the people of [[Japan]] are awakening to do their daily tasks: fishing, going to shrines, and sword practice.

Then the [[Decepticon]]s show up to cause random trouble.

[[Devastator]] begins harrassing a few fishermen, but is chased off by [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]]. [[Astrotrain]] tries to ram a train head on (real smart) only to have the [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbot]]s drive him away. [[Bruticus (G1)|Bruticus]] and [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]] fight it out, when [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]] and the [[Sweep]]s arrive, but are driven off by Rodimus, [[Kup]], and [[Sky Lynx (G1)|Sky Lynx]]. However, instead of thanking the [[Autobot]]s for saving many lives, the government of Japan is very upset, saying that the Autobots frightened people and ruined business (thankless bipeds). When [[Marissa Faireborn]] arrives and brings more problems to Rodimus, the [[Prime (rank)|Autobot leader]] loses patience, [[Transformation|transforms]], and drives off. Kup explains that Rodimus is merely strained under the burden of command, much like [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] was in his early days as leader, and Marissa decides to follow him, to let him have someone to talk to.

[[Image:Matrix burden 1.jpg|thumb|200px|Galvatron takes the brown acid.]]

Meeting up on the highway, however, the two are attacked by [[Wildrider]] and [[Dead End (G1)|Dead End]], who knock Marissa into a lake and force Rodimus off a cliff. When they inspect Rodimus, they find the Matrix. Realizing that [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] will be ''really'' happy, they steal it and return to [[Chaar]]. In his throne room, Galvatron inserts the Matrix into his cannon, but instead of making it even more powerful, the [[Ancient Autobots]] appear and demand that Galvatron return the Matrix. Galvatron orders [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]] to destroy the Matrix, believing it better to be destroyed if the Decepticons can't have it. Scourge, however, inserts the Matrix into himself, and becomes more powerful...but at a startling price.

[[Image:Matrix burden 2.jpg|thumb|left|200px|You found me beautiful, once.]]

Meanwhile, the Autobot leader wakes up, to learn that he's reverted to Hot Rod. [[Springer]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] argue that they should go after the Decepticons, but Hot Rod feels that the Matrix isn't worth it, and jets off. Real smart idea, Roddy. On Chaar, Scourge challenges Galvatron, defeating him and Cyclonus. Scourge leads the Decepticons in an attack on [[Earth]], with Galvatron and Cyclonus in persuit. On Earth, Hot Rod, while watching a martial arts class, gets some perspective, and realizes that he needs to get the Matrix back. He tracks down Scourge, and manages to defeat him, reclaiming the Matrix and becoming Rodimus Prime once more. Galvatron and Cyclonus find a less powerful, and very frightened, Scrouge. And they are none too happy with him...

As the Decepticons retreat, Rodimus realizes that he must deal with his missing part, as have those who came before him. Kup reminds him that no matter who carries the Matrix, he will retain that part forever.

==Stats==
'''Original airdate:''' ???

'''Written by:''' ???

==Quotes==
"[[wikipedia:Second_City_Television|He done blowed up real good]]."<br>
:--'''Wildrider''', master of grammar

==Other notes==

===Animation and/or technical glitches===
* When Rodimus is reverted back to Hot Rod, he's still occasionally drawn using Rodimus Prime's [[character model]].
* For some reason, the EDC letters on Marissa Faireborne's shoulder has been replaced with "AOC".

===Continutity errors===
* During Hot Rod's impassioned speech, he notes that the [[Great War|war]] has been going on for "a few dozen millenia." A Millennium is one thousand years. The Third Cybertron War began nine million years ago, according to "[[War Dawn]]", so that's nine thousand millenia. That works out to be about 750 dozen.

===Transformers references===
* When Galvatron inserts the Matrix into his cannon, he says "Now, [['Til all are one|all shall become one]], under Galvatron!"

===Real-world references===
* References

===Miscellaneous trivia===
* Trivia

===Keywords===
(''separate by commas and link each one so a page can be created for it if it does not already exist'')

==External links==
*

{{stub}}

[[Category: Generation 1 episodes|Burden Hardest to Bear]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Optimus Primal (BW)

2007-10-18T13:52:50Z

Ronimus Prime: /* Timelines */ Fixed a spelling error.

{{Template:Disambig3|Optimus}}
{{picsneeded|[[Technorganic]] form}}
:''Optimus Primal is a [[Maximal]] and an [[Autobot]] in the [[Beast Era]] portion of the [[Generation 1]] continuity family. He is also sometimes known as '''Optimal Optimus''' (not to mention Boss Monkey, Bigbot, Fearless Leader, etc.).''

[[Image:Optimusprimalbw.jpg|right|thumb|250px|Next one of you says "[[trukk not munky]]" gets it in the FACE.]]

Young and untested, '''Optimus Primal''' was a mere captain of an exploration ship when he and his crew were diverted off-course to pursue a stolen Predacon ship under the leadership of some crook named [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]]. The rest, they say, is (literally) history.

Though he does have a penchant for stuffy speeches, Optimus Primal is much more down-to-earth than his legendary [[Optimus Prime (G1)|namesake]]. He is committed to the Maximal codes of honor and moral judgment, but he does view them with some irreverence, and is not above finding loopholes or administering unorthodox solutions if necessary. ("Sometimes, crazy works," he says.) He is eternally loyal to his friends and respectful to his enemies. He is brave and selfless in battle. However, he is so committed to helping others that he can withdraw into a deep depression when he feels he has let them down. This is the only time he is self-absorbed.

Optimus Primal is extraordinary for not only being able to distinguish himself despite living in the shadow of Optimus Prime, but for perhaps even surpassing him. It is possible Optimus Primal is the greatest Cybertronian hero who has ever lived.

{{quote|Come on, let's hear it, the usual destiny and honor speech.|Megatron}}
{{quote|Speech this!|Optimus as he punches Megatron in the face.}}

:''European-market name:'' '''Blackjack''' <br>
:''Japanese name:'' '''(Beast) Convoy, Convobat (bat-version)'''

==Fiction==

===Optimus Primal VS Megatron pack-in comic===

Under the eerie shadows of a full moon Optimus Primal, a gigantic bat, [[Cheetor]], a swift-stalking cheetah, and [[Razorbeast]], a fearsome wild boar, hunt purposely through the depths of a jungle. Soon Optimus detects the thermal emissions and fusion activity from a building, which mean they've found their target. His motion sensors register what appears to be a harmless [[Earth]] creature below.

Before Optimus realizes his mistake the alligator lashes out with as smashing swipe of its tail, knocking Optimus into the swampy waters. The beast transforms and [[Megatron]] towers above him. The building ahead is the Predacon's genetics lab and he'll never let Optimus reach the secrets inside. He orders his troops to attack and everyone transforms to robot mode. The gigantic insects Tarrantulas and Waspinator engage Razorbeast and Cheetor respectively while Optimus and Megatron face off.

Optimus brags that the Maximal ''"[[bio-genetic morphing process]] has allowed us to create the perfect fusion of organic musculature and Transformers technology!"'' Megatron responds that his side did all that too, so nan-neh, but used the DNA of Earth's most vicious predators. When Optimus notes that the Maximals seem to be getting the upper hand, Megatron immediately detonates the lab and escapes, vowing to return with new forms and new plans when the Maximals least expect it. The Beast Wars have just begun!

''('''Note:''' This comic, along with the [[Tech Spec]] bios of the first wave of Beast Wars toys, predate the development of the Beast Wars cartoon and its backstory. Instead they seem to present the characters as a direct continuation of the previous Autobot/Decepticon conflict, with Optimus Primal actually being a new form of Optimus Prime and Megatron being his Generation 1 counterpart, and their battles taking place on present day, [[human]]-inhabited Earth, rather than in the distant past. Once the cartoon launched, the toyline adjusted itself to match that continuity instead, relegating this one to an aborted [[micro-continuity]].) ''

===American animated continuity===
====''Timelines: Dawn of Future's Past''====
[[Image:Optimusprimalbwtimelines.jpg|right|thumb|200px|Pre-fur Optimus Primal, Maximal nobody.]]
Optimus solemnly watched over the crews' stasis pods as they were loaded into the ''Axalon''.
{{-}}

====''Beast Wars''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Gary Chalk]] (English), [[Takehito Koyasu]] (Japanese)

[[Image:OptimusPrimal_BW1.jpg|left|thumb|250px|Don't need no stinkin' shadows.]]

Optimus Primal was the captain of the exploration ship [[Axalon (BW)|''Axalon'']] when his crew got word that the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacon]] criminal [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] had stolen the [[Golden Disk]] and a [[Darkside|ship]] with [[transwarp]] capabilities. Primal's was the closest vessel that also possessed a transwarp drive, so the ''Axalon'' was sent to engage them. Primal followed the Predacons through a transwarp portal and appeared above a mysterious planet, but both ships were damaged in the ensuing space battle, and before both ships crashed into the planet's surface below, Primal ordered that the [[stasis pod]]s carrying the rest of his crew to be ejected into orbit.

The planet was rich with [[energon]] -- so much so that prolonged exposure would short out their bodies, so the Maximals and Predacons were forced to take organic forms from the local creatures. Primal took the form of a silverback gorilla. Estranged from his comrades, the Predacon [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] challenged Primal to a duel soon after their arrival, seeking command of the Maximals so he could, in turn, defeat Megatron. Primal won both the duel and Dinobot's respect (although Dinobot wouldn't admit to respecting him out-loud), and Dinobot joined their ranks. {{Storylink|Beast Wars, Part 1}} {{Storylink|Beast Wars, Part 2}}

Both sides entrenched themselves on their new world and the "Beast Wars" began. Strange unnatural sites and artifacts were discovered, leading Primal and the others to believe that aliens had seeded the primitive planet with experiments and traps. One such trap, the [[Standing Stones]], ensnared Primal's body for a short time, during which the Maximals scrambled to ascertain their chain of command. In his absence, the Maximals squabbled and fought over leadership, until finally his core consciousness was able to speak to them and name [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] as his replacement. Primal's body was subsequently retrieved from the Standing Stones, and he resumed command.

[[Image:OptimusPrimal_Transmetal.jpg|righ|thumb|250px|Transmetal Rippedimus Primal]]

When [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] discovered evidence of the [[Vok]]'s imminent arrival, Megatron called a truce, which Primal reluctantly agreed to. While investigating a newly-created Vok installation, Primal was tortured and captured by the aliens, who spoke to him (in the form of [[Unicron]]) and told him of their plans to 'sterilize' the planet. Barely escaping the Vok base, Primal returned to the Axalon to find it overrun by [[Tarantulas]] and [[Blackarachnia]], who had turned a space stasis pod into an escape ship, in order to flee the doomed planet. As the planet's second moon was converted into a [[Planet Buster]], Primal took the ship to do battle with the superweapon, against the objections of his crew. Primal planned to detonate the ship's [[transwarp cell]] when in range of the weapon, after ejecting to safety. The plan worked - with the exception of the 'ejecting' part. Megatron remotely seized control of the vessel, overriding Primal's ejection commands. The Predacon commander taunted Primal as he futilely beat his fists against the pod, until the detonation obliterated the pod, the Planet Buster, and Primal, reducing them all to so much space junk. {{Storylink|Other Voices, Part 2}}

[[Image:OptimalOptimus_Opsituation_feralscream1.jpg|thumb|left|150px|Trukk ''and'' munky...and playne.]]

Primal's [[Spark]] journeyed to the [[Allspark (dimension)|Matrix]], where it was soon recovered by [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] and placed in a [[blank]] [[protoform]], which became his new [[Transmetal]] body. Primal now transformed into a mechanical gorilla with a gorilla-on-a-hoverboard third mode, using it to kick the crap out of the Predacons. {{Storylink|Coming of the Fuzors, Part 2}}

[[Image:OptimusPrimal_OpSit_Matrixspark.jpg|right|thumb|150px|Continuity error!]]

Later on, Primal was captured and imprisoned in [[Metal Hunter|yet another Vok base]], this one controlled by his archnemesis Megatron. During a daring rescue attempt by the Maximals and Tarantulas, Optimus engaged in a furious battle with Megatron, destroying both the Metal Hunter and the alien disc. The Maximals then suffered a number of setbacks, including the death of [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], the destruction of [[Transmutate]], and Megatron's acquisition of the deadly [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]]. However, the Maximals were soon greeted with good news; the realization that the [[transwarp wavefront]] created by the destruction of the Planet Buster would lead Cybertron to them, in order to mount a rescue operation. Help arrived soon enough, but in the unexpected form of the rebuilt [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]], who had come to arrest Megatron for his crimes against the [[Pax Cybertronia]]. In the midst of this, Primal was forced to chastise new recruit [[Silverbolt (Fuzor)|Silverbolt]] for his dangerous relationship with Blackarachnia. Primal assisted Ravage in arresting Megatron, but was soon betrayed by the ex-[[Decepticon]], allowing Megatron to escape and reach the [[Ark]], in an attempt to assassinate [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]. {{Storylink|The Agenda, Part 3}}

Primal was forced to take the great Autobot's Spark inside himself to keep it protected. This caused his body to grow larger and stronger, gaining ground and air vehicle modes along with his previous gorilla form. This new "Optimal Optimus", as Megatron sarcastically dubbed him, successfully protected Prime's spark until it could be returned to his repaired body, saving history and the future from destruction. {{Storylink|Optimal Situation}}

With the location of the Ark revealed, and Megatron now desperate to end the war at any cost, Primal was forced to move his Maximals into the volcano where the Ark's hull lay. This new, defensive war was much more difficult to fight, and disadvantaged the Maximals severely. With the loss of their defense system, [[Sentinel]], the awkward and violent maturation of Cheetor, proto-humans to guard, and the introduction of the previously treacherous and morally ambiguous Blackarachnia into their ranks, Optimus Primal had more than his share of problems to deal with.

The tide was finally turned when the Vok resurrected and combined [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and [[Tigatron]] into the mighty [[Tigerhawk]], who obliterated the Predacon base. In the end, Primal's forces defeated Megatron's, and with the captured Predacon leader strapped to the roof of a borrowed Autobot shuttle, the Maximals at last headed home. Leaving the planet and memorializing his fallen comrades, Optimus Primal declared that the Beast Wars were over. {{Storylink|Other Victories}} {{Storylink|Nemesis, Part 2}}

However, Primal just traded a war for a nightmare worse than he could imagine.

{{-}}

====Beast Machines====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Gary Chalk]] (English), [[Takehito Koyasu]] (Japanese)

[[Image:BeastMachines-Promo-OptimusPrimal1.jpg|left|thumb|250px|''BOASTFUL FIST!!'']]

Optimus Primal suddenly finds himself alone on [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], back in his original organic gorilla body, unfamiliar with how he arrived there, and pursued by an army of tank drones. A supernatural force lead him to [[Rattrap]], [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]], and [[Blackarachnia]], and though all four appeared to be succumbing to the effects of a deadly virus that keept them from transforming into their robot modes, he was able to lead them to the legendary [[Vector Sigma|Oracle]]. The Oracle reformated them into new [[technorganic]] forms that were immune to the virus.

Eventually, Primal and his allies learned that Megatron broke free during their Transwarp flight home and so arrived on Cybertron before them. Megatron conquered the planet and laid a trap for Primal's crew and any other Transformers returning to Cybertron.

During the events that followed, Optimus Primal came to be much more in touch with his spiritual side than he ever was before, due to an almost mystical connection to the Oracle. This granted him visions and intuitions, guiding him to complete its designs. Though he had some trouble at first comprehending just what the Oracle wanted and how to go about it, he was, in the end, successful. Optimus Primal sacrificed his life, plunging with Megatron into the heart of Cybertron and initiating the reformatting that returned the deactivated population to life and gave birth to the new technorganic Cybertron.

====''Robots in Disguise''====
When a spirit guide was needed to counsel the [[Optimus Prime (RiD)|Optimus Prime]] of a past, alternate reality, Optimus Primal rose to the task.

====''Universe''====
[[Image:Csoptimusprimalu2.jpg|320px|right|thumb|Primal [[Autobot]] or SuperApe that steal Other Autobots that have a yellow thing and a blue thing.]]
:''Voice actor:'' [[Garry Chalk]] (English, script reading)
His sacrifice to end Megatron's evil and restore Cybertron was not the final battle for Optimus Primal. When the machinations of [[Unicron]] led to a new conflict, with Transformers abducted from across the multiverse forced to fight for Unicron's benefit, [[Vector Sigma]] and [[Alpha Trion]] chose Optimus Primal to lead the [[Children of Primus]] against this threat. Primal was returned to life, and chose his old comrades [[Depth Charge]] and [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] to return as well and aid him. (Returning Primal to life, however, also resulted in the resurrection of his old foe Megatron.)

====''Cybertron'' comic====
[[Image:Optimusprimaluniverseend.jpg|right|thumb|It's 11pm -- do you know where your Beast Wars cast is?]]

[[Optimus Prime (RiD)|Optimus Prime]] recalled the end of the ''[[Universe]]'' conflict, where Optimus Primal led an assault on the [[Minions of Unicron]]. But due to [[Unicron]]'s sudden instability, Primal was victorious, and was able to escape back to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] with his troops and rescue a number of Unicron-corrupted innocents. Unknown to Primal, Unicron's dispersion was caused by the [[Unicron Singularity|Grand Black Hole]] in an alternate universe.

===Japanese animated continuity===

====''Beast Wars II''====
[[Image:Burningconvoy.jpg|thumb|left|All these compliments are making me blush.]]
=====Movie=====
Optimus Primal was summoned across time by [[Lio Junior]] to help [[Lio Convoy]] destroy [[Majin Zarak]]. Optimus Primal became '''Burning Convoy''' by joining the power of his matrix with Lio Convoy's.

After Majin Zarak's destruction, Optimus Primal returned to ancient [[Earth]].

''('''Note''': The events of the ''Beast Wars II'' movie, especially Optimus Primal having an [[Energon Matrix]], did not occur in American continuity. It's not clear when during the Beast Wars Optimus Primal was taken.)''

=====Manga=====

When Lio Convoy goes nuts and grows to giant proportions, wreaking havok across the landscape, Optimus Primal is summoned across time by the power of the Matrix to heal him.

====''Robot Masters''====
:''Voice actor:'' [[Yuto Kazama]] (Japan)

Optimus Primal chased Megatron in yet another time warp into the Generation 1 era. There, he met and joined forces with the [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]. Together, their special attack was a massive energon tornado called Double Convoy Tornado. The Double Convoy Tornado would come to be countered by [[Megatron (BW)|Beast Megatron]]'s and [[Megatron (G1)|Rebirth Megatron]]'s Double Megatron Tornado, but emerge victorious with the addition of Lio Convoy's Lio Typhoon Arrow, creating Triple Convoy Tornado Link attack.

He also had a temporary virus-induced Black Body form.

''('''Note''': Since both were known as simply "Convoy" in their respective Japanese series, Optimus Prime was designated "G1 Convoy" while Optimus Primal was designated "Beast Convoy".)''

====''Beast Wars Reborn'' text story====

''('''Note''': This story takes place after the events of Beast Machines.)''

Both Megatron and Optimus Primal awoke inside a bizare temple-like spaceship which was hurtling through space. Neither had any memory of who they were or how they got there, only their own names and a feeling of discomfort between one another. The pair went about investigating the ship in search of answers. While Megatron's memory was lost, his personality remained mostly intact: he was more concerned with sezing control of the ship before Primal did in order to gain the upperhand.

They eventually found a data log and discovered that their sparks had been taken and they were reborn into new bodies (unbeknownst to them, bodies identical to their original forms). However, their memories were intentionally not uploaded into their new bodies. While searching the log they discovered that the ship's main power source was a [[Golden Disk]] lodged within a giant pillar. Megatron immediately raced to obtain the Disk and Primal followed him. The closer they got to the disk the more the ship attempted to thwart their advance by manipulating its atmosphere conditions.

Once they reached the chamber the ship's environment suddenly morphed to that of a decaying planet littered with the corpses of robots. The corpses came to life and began shambling toward them, intent on eating their sparks. They made short work of the zombies, leaving Megatron to obtain the Golden Disk and Primal with a feeling that he shouldn't entirely trust Megatron.

From another dimension beyond time and space, [[Primus]] recognized that something was amiss and sent one of his messengers to meet Primal and Megatron within the spaceship.

===''Beast Wars Metals'' manga continuity===

Optimus Primal, who was killed while destroying the Vok Planet Buster, is resurrected as a sparkless monster using a voodoo ceremony. Rhinox rescues Primal's spark from Transwarp Space and restores him to his body.

Later, he eats Optimus Prime's spark.

''The Metals manga takes Primal's manic action hero side to the next level. He once put a bomb in his mouth and tricked the cannibalistic [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]] into eating his head. "I have a spare," he says casually, transforming to beast mode.''

==Toys==
===Beast Wars===
* '''Optimus Primal vs Megatron''' (Basic versus two-pack, 1996)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-6'''

:The first Optimus Primal was a Basic size class blue bat which could autotransform into a robot by pulling the tail. Two swords were removable from under its wings for use as weaponry in robot mode. It was packaged along with an alligator version of Megatron and a ''Beast Wars'' mini-comic.

:Whether this toy can be considered the Optimus Primal character is a matter of debate. Released before the animated series began, which established Optimus Primal as a separate entity from Optimus Prime, the accompanying profiles and mini-comic seem to assume that the Beast Wars are a progression of the same characters from the Autobot/Decepticon war. Whether the animated series' [[retcon]] affected this set of toys is probably a matter of personal preference. It can be interpreted as representing one of the more interesting [[Micro-Continuities|micro-continuities]].

:This mold was also used to make the Optimus Prime-recolored Convobat (who may or may not be a separate character to either Prime or Primal), and [[Onyx Primal]].

* '''Optimus Primal''' (Ultra, 1996/1997/1998)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-1'''

[[Image:Optimusprimaltoyultraape.jpg|left|thumb|150px|Yes, missiles come out of his butt.]]

: The second Optimus Primal toy was an ape in the Ultra size class. Though the transformation from primate to humanoid was a relatively simplistic transformation, the toy compensated with more than a fair share of weaponry and action features. A compartment on his right forearm opened to reveal a skull-shaped mace he could hold in its fist. His left forearm could open into a double-barreled missile launcher. On his back were two spring-loaded missile launchers which auto-flipped over each shoulder. By pulling a lever in the center of its back, both arms would either spin at the bicep or swing, depending on the placement of notch-buttons located on either bicep. And finally, like many first-year ''Beast Wars'' toys, a battle mask/"[[mutant head]]" could be deployed over its robot head.

[[Image:prizeprimals.jpg|100px|thumb|right|Brass monkeys.]]

: Takara released the toy as part of their ''Beast Wars'' line in July of 1997, nearly identical to the Hasbro version. In January of 1998, the re-did many of the toys with a few alterations; for Optimus, they changed the black to dark gray and the blue to metallic blue. The missiles for the Takara version are also thinner and simpler than the original Hasbro version, and would be used in all subsequent releases of the mold.

:This mold was [[redeco]]ed into ''[[Universe]]'' Optimus Primal, and [[retool]]ed into ''Beast Wars Reborn''/''Beast Wars Tenth Anniversary'' versus pack Optimus Primal. Takara also created multiple special variants, including all-gold (from ''Tele-V Magazine'', only ten awarded), red and gray (''Tele-V'' again, but only ''one'' awarded), blue-fur (a ''Comics Bom Bom'' design-contest prize, only five awarded), and colorless-clear with silver paint details (Toys 'R' Us retail [[exclusive]]).

*'''Convobat vs Megaligator'''
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''S-1'''
:This figure is a red [[redeco]] of Primal's first bat form, and was sold with a purple redeco of Gator Megatron.

*'''Orcanoch''' ([[Microverse]], 1997)
: Part of the Microverse toyline, this orca transforms into a Maximal base. It came with tiny, non-transforming versions of Optimus Primal and Tarantulas.

* '''Optimus Primal''' (Mega Transmetal, 1998)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-40'''

: [[Transmetal]] Optimus Primal is a mechanical gorilla that transforms into a partially organic robot. Like all Transmetals, it featured chromed plastic and a third vehicle-inspired mode -- in Primal's case, its gorilla mode could transform into a gorilla on a hoverboard. Two maces stored on his back, which could double as missiles for its hip-holstered blaster.

: [[Takara]]'s version of the toy exchanged the brown plastic for translucent maroon, and was also available in a set with Transmetal Megatron.

: This mold was used to make [[Apelinq]].

* '''Optimal Optimus''' (Super Transmetal, 1998)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-47'''

: Transmetal Optimal Optimus was the first toy in the Super size class, featuring electronics and four transformations -- robot, ape, jet, and armored transport. When a back section of the cannon module was pulled, its eyes and shoulder-mounted missile launchers lit up and fired. It came with four missiles, two of which stored on its legs. Its forearms featured blast-away armor plates that could also be pegged to its upper arms.

:Optimal Optimus's Tech Specs states that he has Cybertronian "air guardian" technology and twin scramjet modules. [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]]'s function was Air Guardian, and his Tech Specs said he had these same scramjet modules.

: This mold was used to make [[Primal Prime]].

===Beast Wars II===
* '''Burning Convoy'''
Clear-red redeco of Primal, with gold "flame" markings also included. Was released as a limited edition figure to promote the ''Beast Wars Special'' movie alongside the ''Flash LioConvoy'' toy.

===Beast Machines===
* '''Optimus Primal''' (Deluxe, 2000)
: The first Beast Machines Optimus Primal was a dark bronze and translucent blue technorganic gorilla that transformed into a technorganic robot. Its arm was spring-loaded to throw the shuriken that stored in its shoulder. Like all ''Beast Machines'' toys, it had a hidden "spark crystal" that displayed his faction allegiance. Had a transformation reminiscent of [[Optimus Minor]].
* '''Blast Punch Optimus Primal''' (Mega, 2001)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''BR-01'''
:His second toy incarnation, which unlike the previous toy (which had been designed prior to the series) actually looked mostly like the character.

===Robots in Disguise===
* '''Air Attack Optimus Primal''' (Supreme, 2002)
Intended for release in the ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'' toyline, this delayed figure is by far the most show-accurate version of BM Optimus. Unfortunately, being a supreme-class toy he is grossly, indeed ''uselessly'' out of [[scale]] with his fellow Maximal figures. Or pretty much anyone for that matter. Still he looks swank, and he talks! With [[Gary Chalk]]'s voice!!!

===Universe===
*'''Optimus Primal''' (Ultra, 2003)

===Robot Masters===
*'''Beast Convoy'''
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''RM-11'''

*'''Beast Convoy Limited Black Version'''

: Available only via mail order through ''Hobby Japan'' magazine

* '''Burning Beast Convoy'''
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''RM-21'''
:This toy refers to the ''Beast Wars II'' movie form where he partnered Lio Convoy, turning them into Burning Convoy and Flash Lio Convoy respectively.

===Beast Wars 10th Anniversary===
[[Image:Optimusprimalbwx.jpg|left|thumb|125px|''Surf monkey/ that funky monkey'']]
* '''Optimus Primal''' (2006)

: Beast Wars 10th Anniversary (BWX) Optimus Primal is a new toy design based loosely on his original ultra ape action figure and pulling some elements from other figures, including a transformation very similar to the Playskool Go-Bot [[Gorillabot]], which itself was a nod to Optimus Primal's Beast Machines form. Similar to his Transmetal form, BWX Optimus Primal also comes with a hoverboard that fires a missile when a [[Cyber Planet Key]] is inserted. The board also features a spring-loaded extending "assault blade" (or "ass lt blade" as the directions call it). Though it is not intended to be removed, the blade can be popped off and held in Primal's hand thanks to his posable thumbs.

[[Image:PrimalXsword.jpg|100px|thumb|Opposable thumbs!]]

: He is also packaged with a mini-comic-sized reprinting of [[IDW Publishing]]'s ''[[The Gathering]]'' #1, a small [[Axalon (BW)|''Axalon'']] ship figurine, and a [[Jungle Planet]] style Cyber Planet Key without a [[Cyber Key Code]] stamped on it.

:This mold was [[redeco]]ed and released as [[Cybertron (toyline)|''Cybertron'']] [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]]. It's worth noting that the sculpt for both BWX leader toys were intentionally designed to blend in with the Jungle Planet aesthetic, "in case" they didn't get a Beast Wars Anniversary release (according to [[Aaron Archer]]'s statements at [[BotCon 2005]]).

* '''Optimus Primal vs Megatron''' (Toys "R" Us, 2006)
:Identical to the ''Beast Wars Reborn'' set as detailed below, but in new packaging with a DVD of the ''Beast Wars'' episode "[[Possession]]."

* '''Convoy'''
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''TM-01'''
: Basically, just a concept similar to the Beast Wars Reborn set below, but with Robot Masters Beast Convoy. It's a recolor of the figure in the style of the show's colors, so it's very show accurate. And not as neon. We all love that.

===Beast Wars Reborn===
[[Image:Optimusprimaltoybwrebornheads.jpg|right|thumb|150px|Staring contest -- go!]]
* '''Convoy vs Megatron''' (2006)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''BWR-01'''

[[Image:Optimusprimaltoybwreborn.jpg|left|thumb|100px|The eighth Optimus of the world... PRIMAL!]]

: This release is a [[retool]] of the original 1996 Ultra toy, with new heads and robot chest sculpted to match the television series' portrayal. The color scheme was also altered to be show-accurate, changing the black to dark gray, much of the light gray to medium gray with hints of bronze, primary red to crimson, and blue to a more dull steel blue. This figure came packaged with a similarly-remolded [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] and a [[Golden Disk]] CD-ROM that contains control art for a number of ''Beast Wars'' toys.

===Titanium Series===
* '''Optimus Primal''' (3" Robot Master figurine)
Features Primal in his Beast Wars Season 1 appearance, with swords drawn in an action pose.

* '''Optimal Optimus''' (6" Transformable figure)

For undetermined reasons, this incarnation of Optimal Optimus does not include the beast mode. Interestingly, this ''does'' have precedent in the fiction: When [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] built a copy of that body for himself at the end of [[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]], his version didn't have a beast mode either.

===Timelines===
* '''Dawn of Future's Past''' (Boxset, BotCon 2006)
A [[redeco]] and [[retool]] of [[Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]] [[Crumplezone (Cybertron)|Crumplezone]]. Available only in a multi pack with the [[Axalon (BW)|Axalon]] versions of [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]], [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], and [[Rattrap]]. As well as the [[Darksyde]] version of [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]].

===Merchandise===

==Trivia==

* Primal's gorilla mode, paired against [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]]'s t-rex mode, was inspired by the showdown in [[wikipedia:King Kong|King Kong]]. 

* Indeed, gorilla Primal's original tech specs (which belong to the [[micro-continuity]] that takes place on modern-day earth) seems to strongly imply that Primal is a building-scaling ape of Kong-like stature. As speculated in the ''Beast Wars'' volume of the ''[[Cybertronian: The Unofficial Transformers Recognition Guide|Cybertronian]]'' action figure guide, this may have been intended to explain why he is [[Scale|in the same scale]] as Megatron, a Tyrannosaurus Rex. This would also make somewhat greater sense in the context of the toyline itself, wherein the leader characters were of a much larger "Ultra" size-class than their minions, unlike their eventually much smaller depictions in [[Beast Wars (cartoon)|the CG cartoon]].

* According to a guide book published in conjunction with the ''Beast Wars II'' theatrical film, Optimus Primal's original body had the following technical specifications. The veracity of these numbers in relation to anything actually featuring Primal, of course, is questionable.

:Height: 2.8m (9.19 feet).
:Weight: 2 tons.
:Running Speed: 60km (37.28 mph, beast mode), 50km (31.07 mph, robot mode).
:Airspeed: Mach 7.
:Maximum Power Output: 1,000,000 horsepower.

* In his Transmetal form, Optimus Primal's spark chamber is on a hinge in his chest to swing down to the opening in his abdomen. In his Optimal Optimus form, he stored Prime's spark in his vehicle mode cockpit.

* According to the control art of Optimus Primal's toy, the his chest originally seemed to be a kind of laucher instead of being homage to the [[Autobot Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]].<ref>Toy database section in [[Beast Wars Universe]]</ref>

==Reference==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
*[http://www.tfu.info/1996/Maximal/OptimusPrimal/optimusprimal.htm Optimus Primal at TFU.info]

[[Category: Autobots]]
[[Category: Beast Machines characters]]
[[Category: Beast Wars characters]]
[[Category: Beast Wars II characters]]
[[Category: Children of Primus]]
[[Category: Convention exclusives]]
[[Category: Dimension hoppers]]
[[Category: Fast food exclusives]]
[[Category: Mail order exclusives]]
[[Category: Maximal leaders]]
[[Category: Maximals]]
[[Category: Robot Masters characters]]
[[Category: Robots in Disguise characters]]
[[Category: Timelines characters]]
[[Category: Titanium Series]]
[[Category: Toys "R" Us exclusives]]
[[Category: Transmetals]]
[[Category: Universe characters]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Turtler

2007-10-03T16:55:14Z

Ronimus Prime:

==Move?==
I propose moving this page to Turtler, although I admit my reasoning is largely "it can be either and I think it looks better that way". (He *is* also listed as Turtler on the toy packaging, and though I acknowledge Masterforce's track record ain't so great in that regard, it doesn't make ''un''sense.) -- [[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 20:57, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
:"Turtler" was used on the DVDs, too, so I'd second the move. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:13, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
::Well, if it was used on official material, I must say use it, even though I think "Turtlar" sounds cooler. [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 16:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Turtler

2007-08-27T14:20:12Z

Ronimus Prime:

:''Turtlar is a [[Decepticon]] [[Seacon (Masterforce)|Seacon]] from the [[Masterforce (television series)|Masterforce]] portion of the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

'''Turtlar''' commands the mindless Seacon drones, and can combine with them to form [[King Poseidon]]. Despite being a [[wikipedia:Gamera|giant turtle]], he is decidedly not [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|friend to all children.]]

==Fiction==
===Masterforce cartoon===
:''Voice actor: [[Masato Hirano]] (Japan)''

===Masterforce manga===

==Toys==

==External links==

*[http://www.tfu.info/1988/Decepticon/Snaptrap/snaptrap.htm Turtlar (or rather his US counterpart Snaptrap) at TFU.info]

{{stub}}

[[category:Masterforce characters]]
[[category:Seacons]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Turtler

2007-08-27T14:19:54Z

Ronimus Prime:

:''Turtlar is a [[Decepticon]] [[Seacon (Masterforce)|Seacon]] from the [[Masterforce (television series)|Masterforce]] portion of the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

'''Turtlar''' commands the mindless Seacon drones, and can combine with them to form [[King Poseidon]]. Despite being a [[[wikipedia:Gamera|giant turtle]], he is decidedly not [[Fortress Maximus (RID)|friend to all children.]]

==Fiction==
===Masterforce cartoon===
:''Voice actor: [[Masato Hirano]] (Japan)''

===Masterforce manga===

==Toys==

==External links==

*[http://www.tfu.info/1988/Decepticon/Snaptrap/snaptrap.htm Turtlar (or rather his US counterpart Snaptrap) at TFU.info]

{{stub}}

[[category:Masterforce characters]]
[[category:Seacons]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Trademark

2007-08-27T14:18:19Z

Ronimus Prime:

It's a word with a strict dictionary definition, and it doesn't specifically refer to Transformers, nor is it a fan-coined term like "retool" or "neon." Why would it need an article? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 05:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

: Because it's kind of important to Transformers, since it determines what things are NAMED? And the "CANT THEY JUST CALL HIM AUTOBOT HOT ROD" continuiously comes up, so having a page that explains why not we can just link to for the various explanations as to the name changes and etc would be quite the handy thing to have? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
:: For the love of God, yes please. Then I wouldn't have to explain what trademarks mean in context to Transformers thirty million times a week, instead just linking a URL. That's something a dictionary definition certainly won't give. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
:::If it's so incredibly important and you all seem to know exactly what such an article should contain, then why don't you actually make it? It's been on the Most Wanted page for a while. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 07:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
::::We're hoping our trademark lawyer friend will write it. He's just been busy. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 07:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

:::::Think this will get him unbusy? ;-) -[[User:Autobus Prime|Autobus Prime]] 12:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

::::::I work in trademarks now. I could have a whack at it if ye like. --[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 10:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

This article is so rad.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 12:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
: Ronimus Prime, who is NOT trademarked, concurs.[[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 14:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Trademark

2007-08-27T14:18:05Z

Ronimus Prime:

It's a word with a strict dictionary definition, and it doesn't specifically refer to Transformers, nor is it a fan-coined term like "retool" or "neon." Why would it need an article? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 05:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

: Because it's kind of important to Transformers, since it determines what things are NAMED? And the "CANT THEY JUST CALL HIM AUTOBOT HOT ROD" continuiously comes up, so having a page that explains why not we can just link to for the various explanations as to the name changes and etc would be quite the handy thing to have? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
:: For the love of God, yes please. Then I wouldn't have to explain what trademarks mean in context to Transformers thirty million times a week, instead just linking a URL. That's something a dictionary definition certainly won't give. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
:::If it's so incredibly important and you all seem to know exactly what such an article should contain, then why don't you actually make it? It's been on the Most Wanted page for a while. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 07:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
::::We're hoping our trademark lawyer friend will write it. He's just been busy. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 07:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

:::::Think this will get him unbusy? ;-) -[[User:Autobus Prime|Autobus Prime]] 12:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

::::::I work in trademarks now. I could have a whack at it if ye like. --[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 10:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

This article is so rad.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 12:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
: Ronimus Prime, who is NOT trademarked, concurs.<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Trademark

2007-08-27T14:17:41Z

Ronimus Prime:

It's a word with a strict dictionary definition, and it doesn't specifically refer to Transformers, nor is it a fan-coined term like "retool" or "neon." Why would it need an article? - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 05:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

: Because it's kind of important to Transformers, since it determines what things are NAMED? And the "CANT THEY JUST CALL HIM AUTOBOT HOT ROD" continuiously comes up, so having a page that explains why not we can just link to for the various explanations as to the name changes and etc would be quite the handy thing to have? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
:: For the love of God, yes please. Then I wouldn't have to explain what trademarks mean in context to Transformers thirty million times a week, instead just linking a URL. That's something a dictionary definition certainly won't give. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
:::If it's so incredibly important and you all seem to know exactly what such an article should contain, then why don't you actually make it? It's been on the Most Wanted page for a while. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 07:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
::::We're hoping our trademark lawyer friend will write it. He's just been busy. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 07:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

:::::Think this will get him unbusy? ;-) -[[User:Autobus Prime|Autobus Prime]] 12:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

::::::I work in trademarks now. I could have a whack at it if ye like. --[[User:Ratbat|Ratbat]] 10:04, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

This article is so rad.--[[User:OctopusPrime|Octopus Prime- King of the Road!]] 12:42, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
: Ronimus Prime, ex-leader of the Earth 72 Autobots, concurs.<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Scale

2007-08-12T21:34:57Z

Ronimus Prime:

[[Image:OptimusSnakeEyes.jpg|right|thumb|300px|And the truck's ''how'' big...?]]
'''Scale''' in the ''Transformers'' multiverse is, to put not too fine a point on it, screwed.

Virtually no generation, era, franchise, fiction, toyline or other incarnation of ''Transformers'' has presented scale in a consistent, logical or easily-believable fashion (Save perhaps, [[Alternators]], but we all know where [[having a scale consistent with a young girl leads|Kiss Players]]). Most fans would agree that one needs to either ignore it or accept it, lest they be tempted to actually explain away these problems and in the process undoubtedly fanwank themselves into oblivion.

However, this does not mean that the chronic scale problems of ''Transformers'' do not merit description.

== Scale within toylines ==
As is generally well known, the early [[Generation 1 (toyline)|Generation 1 toyline]], especially the entire pre-[[Transformers: The Movie|Movie]] lines, were created from repackaged and [[redeco]]ed toys from several different Japanese transforming toylines. The crucial point being that they came from ''different'' toylines. All characters (well, virtually all; see below) ''should'' be in correct scale to each other as they all are supposed to represent real-world altmodes that can pass for correctly-scaled vehicles etc. However, since the ''[[Diaclone]]'' toys were not designed to be part of the same line as ''[[Microman]]'' toys, scale issue arise. While ''Diaclone'' figures such as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] are more-or-less in correct scale to each other, many of the [[Mini Vehicle]]s from the ''New Microman'' line are clearly far too small by comparison. Even aside from the deformed [[penny-racer]] style proportions, even a comparatively small car such as a [[Bumblebee (G1)|Volkswagen]] is disproportionately tiny when compared to a [[Jazz (G1)|Porsche]] that should be in the same scale. The disparity becomes all the more obvious with other [[minibot]]s such as [[Warpath]] and [[Seaspray]] whose [[altmode]]s would suggest that they should be many times their actual size.

[[Image:DiacloneScale.jpg|left|thumb|400px|That little guy --who comes from the same toyline as all those vehicles-- is supposed to be a normal-sized human. Yyyeah.]]

Another glaring scale problem comes in the form of the [[Seeker]]s, who turn into F-15 Eagles which, in real life, are 63.8 ft (19.44 m) long. Clearly not in scale with the Autobot cars then...

Neither, for that matter, are the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], despite also coming from the ''[[Diaclone]]'' line. Even ''more'' out-of-scale are the other ''Diaclone''-born combiner team the [[Trainbot]]s who, as the name implies, have train engine altmodes, considerably larger than cars and most construction equipment, yet their toys are among the smallest of the original ''Diaclone'' releases.

Even toys specifically designed to interact with each other often suffer from this problem. The [[Combaticon]]s, for instance, are wildly out of scale to each other--[[Blast Off]]'s space shuttle mode should be the largest by far, and [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] should be significantly smaller than the others. Among the aforementioned Constructicons, [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]], like most dumptrucks in ''Transformers'', is actually one of those gigantic [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Liebherr_t282_1.jpg "earth-mover" mining trucks], which would make him significantly bigger than his teammates.

Other scale problems come from characters who transform into the same (or very similar) altforms but whose toys are very different sizes. For example [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] transforms into and F-15 Eagle, but his toy is half the size of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s. In reality they should be an identical size (in fact, [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]], transforming into a Concorde passenger jet should in fact be one of the largest G1 Transformers with an Earth altmode). The same can be said for [[Breakdown]], who, having a Lamborghini Countach altmode, should be in scale with [[Sunstreaker]]. This also goes for the other [[Stunticon]]s and all the Special Teams/[[Scramble City]]-type combiners with Earth-based altmodes, whose toys are all out of scale to earlier waves. By the same token, Warpath should be roughly the same size as [[Blitzwing]].

Speaking of Blitzwing, [[Triple Changer|Triple-Changers]] create a whole new set of problems. [[Octane]] transforms from a roughly 60-foot tanker truck into a 200-foot plus jumbo jet. [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] transforms from an Earth jet into an entire ''aircraft carrier'', presumably sized to carry quite a few Earth jets. More recent series, such as [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'', suggest that this is possible due to a variety of sliding panels, essentially making the transformations akin to incredibly elaborate origami. You heard right; origami Transformers. Yup.

Also, from an in-universe logic perspective, the characters with role-play altmodes such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] or [[Laserbeak (Armada)|Armada Laserbeak]] are scaled to be human(well, kid)-scale. Although [[size changing]] is obviously not possible for real toys (or at least, that's what [[Takara]] ''wants'' us to think...), this human-scaling makes in some cases for inordinately large robot modes, e.g. [[Blaster]].

Most post-[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|Movie]] G1 characters (and, for that matter, most post-G1 ''lines'') are difficult to accurately scale, as they generally transform into "futuristic" or "Cybertonian" vehicles for which there are no real-world specifications, or indeed don't transform into vehicles at all. Therefore the scale of characters such as [[Hot Rod]] or [[Leobreaker]] are fairly arbitrary and can at best be estimated by their relative size to more scale-friendly characters within the same fictions, although most animation is highly inconsistent in this regard (see below). Nevertheless, if one presumes that most vehicle altmodes are intended to house human passengers, comparisons of toys such as [[Chromedome]] and [[Lightspeed (Technobot)|Lightspeed]] suggest a scale disparity similar to other combiners.

There has only been one notable exception to all of this scale weirdness; the ''[[Alternators]]'' toyline, where every item is a 1:24-scale representation of a real car model, and thus remain in near-perfect scale with each other.

One last interesting case, related to the aforementioned Triple Changer difficulty, is when the toy is not in scale ''with itself''. For example, 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime has wheels which are proportionally too small for a Freightliner truck, while similarly his rear section onto which a trailer would be hitched is much too thick. These out-of-proportion vehicle parts were necessary to give to his robot mode better robot proportions.

== Scale within fictions ==
[[Image:TeenyCliff.jpg|left|thumb|Cliffjumper is one ****ing tiny car. Or Hound is a ****ing huge Jeep.]]

Scale issues abound within fictions, especially the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]]. A lot can be attributed to animation errors, or even "lazy animation". For example, in the episode "Make Tracks", [[Hoist]], who is depicted as one of the larger Autobots in robot mode, is shown riding inside [[Huffer]], a Minibot whose truck mode is usually depicted as being smaller than Optimus Prime's. So either Huffer is extremely large in that scene, or Hoist is the size of a human.

[[Size changing]] is rarely depicted on screen outside of characters such as [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]], but is rather implied (or, one could argue in many cases, inferred) in the following method: a character such as [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]] transforms in-frame from robot to shuttle with no visible expansion of size relative to his surroundings. Cut. In the following shot his fellow Decepticons are shown running into frame, suddenly tiny in stature so that they can board the shuttle. Although Astrotrain has not been shown to actually grow (in the way Megatron is usually seen to perceptibly shrink in-shot), one infers that it is more likely that Astrotrain has expanded rather than all his confederates have individually shrunk. The same goes for [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] and other "transport" characters.

Some scale problems appear to be arbitrary, for example Optimus Prime (and, indeed, most Transformers in general) is routinely shown as being throughly gargantuan, equal to several stories in hight and capable of cradling humans in the palm of one hand. In reality, Prime would probably be about 25-30 feet tall, at best. Conversely, [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] is sometimes shown as being only a few feet taller than an average human, where in reality he would be around 10-15 feet tall. And those pesky [[Seeker]]s remain a walking scale problem; in reality they would be amongst the largest Transformers of all and would ''tower'' over their Autobot adversaries, whereas the animation generally depicts character such as [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] as being approximately the same height.

In most cases, the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] adopts approximations of the toy scale (with all its inherent problems) when depicting the characters in robot modes; Prime, Megatron and Soundwave are generally animated at the same height, Seekers and Autobot cars slightly shorter (although not ''as'' much shorter and unevenly so as the actual toys are), and [[Minibot]]s are given a smaller stature again. However, these depictions were ''far'' from consistent.

Some fans interpret these discrepancies to also be the result of [[size changing]], but this is debatable. If virtually all characters used mass-shifting (or whatever) to gain or drop just a few feet for no apparent reason (other than to make the animation more plausible), the technology would seem pointlessly mundane. Furthermore there is no strong evidence in the series to indicate that size changing truly is so widespread as opposed to the animation having a particular style to it that favors emphasizing the hugeness of the Cybertronians.

It is worth noting that the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]] has taken great pains to avoid size-changing and out-of-scale issues among characters with Earth-based alternate modes. This is sometimes reflected in the choice of vehicle ([[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] is a long-nosed truck cab in order to offer more mass to make a taller robot mode out of) or the design of their robot modes. [[Image:DreamwaveCover6.jpg|right|thumb|200px|...since when is a sedan 9 stories tall?]] For example, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]'s robot mode is nearly as wide as it is tall, with shorter, digitigrade-style legs, so the massive jet-former won't end up twice as tall as Optimus. In the case of [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], his huge alternate mode simply results in a huge, hulking, towering robot mode.

All that said, size-changing technology clearly exists in ''some'' form in the movie continuity, as [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] somehow shrinks the [[All Spark]] down to a manageable size and mass. Thus far, there's no evidence this trick can be applied to anything except the All Spark.

=== Combiner scale ===
[[Combiner]] characters are often depicted as far larger than the sum of their parts. Characters such as [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] and [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] are frequently shown being as tall as large buildings, sometimes even the size of small skyscrapers. When one thinks that their individual limbs are composed of mere cars and construction vehicles, this becomes patently absurd. Logically, this can only be accounted for by serious [[size changing|size-change-o-rama]] and yet, again, no clear depiction of this process actually taking place is ever shown in the case of combiners.

[[Superion (G1)|Superion]], however, actually ''would'' be fairly massive, if one considers the much larger real-world size of his component parts.
{{-}}

== Show scale vs. toy scale ==

Some characters have great discrepancies between their cartoon scale and their toy scale. "Giant" characters such as [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] are, even aside from any [[size changing]] for transport purposes, clearly not in the same scale in toy form as they are depicted on screen. [[Mini-Cassettes|Cassette characters]] such as [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]'s toys are roughly the same height as most [[Minibot]]s, while in the show they are usually portrayed as human-sized (which is odd, considering that Soundwave is capable of expanding to massive size).

[[Hot Rod|Rodimus Prime]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] are usually shown to be of a fairly similar height (although Magnus is much bulkier), whereas there is a considerable difference between the size of their toys. By the same token, Rodimus is always depicted as being an equal stature to his opposing leader [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], whereas the toy Galvatron is instead the same size as Magnus. Optimus Prime is also usually shown as only a head or so shorter than Magnus (if that), which gets very strange when you realise that a recolour of Prime's toy forms but a small part of Magnus' robot mode.

[[Image:ShrinkingHeavy.jpg|left|thumb|250px|I lost thirty tons, thanks to the Jump-Cut! Thank you, Jump-Cut!]]

[[Metroplex (Cybertron)|''Cybertron'' Metroplex]] and the other citizens of [[Gigantion]] are depicted as gargantuan in animation, whereas the toys are merely among the normal boxed size-classes. (Although, the Japanese [[Galaxy Force]] release, dubbed "Megalo Convoy", included an exclusive [[redeco]] of the [[Legends of Cybertron]] [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] to indicate the "correct" scale.) Within the animation, though, this causes problems with their Mini-Con partners, who are depicted as human-sized in robot mode by themselves, but when directly interacting with their larger partners, retain their size in relation to the toy... meaning some temporarily-gigantic Mini-Cons!

{{-}}

== Pretender scale ==

The G1 concept of [[Pretender|Pretenders]] had some interesting scale issues. In the [[Generation 1 (Marvel Comics)|original comic]] the pretenders appeared fairly literally as their toy counterparts; normal-sized robots inside humanoid shells. The logical result of this was that the [[Autobot]] Pretenders were depicted as giant-sized humans. Which ain't much of a disguise. By comparison, the [[Decepticon]]s merely look like garden-variety giant Saban monsters. In one issue of the comic Cloudburst transformed into jet mode, and his shell, as well as Landmine, who was inside his shell, boarded him. It was difficult to tell if Cloudburst was supposed to have grown in size, or if his shell and Landmine had shrunk to fit inside.

In the U.S. toy commercials Classic Pretenders Grimlock, Bumblebee and Jazz were depicted as small enough to fit in Powermaster Optimus Prime's hand, so it is assumed they were human sized.

Although the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|original American cartoon]] did not feature any [[Pretender|Pretenders]], the Japanese-only continuity did, in their series ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]''. Here the Pretenders were not shells so much as ill-defined wholistic transformations which involved [[size changing]], allowing the large Autobots to achieve human size and convincingly pass themselves off as such. The Decepticons, by comparison chose to retain their gigantic proportions when in Pretender-mode.

Although never depicted in any of their actual fiction, [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye]]'' profile book included a description of their continuity's take on the Pretender concept. Something of a fusion of the above two, it described a physical shell that utilizes [[size changing|shrinking]] technology to achieve the ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Masterforce]]''-like capacity to pass the wearer off as a real human (or other bipedal lifeform of choice). Intriguingly, the profile also obliquely implies that such Pretender technology would/could later lead to the development of the synthetic faux-organic beast-mode tech of the [[Beast Era]].

== Mini-Con scale ==
The [[Mini-Con]]s of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] are small robots who stand approximately the same height as a human. However, they almost all transform into vehicles (of either Earth or Cybertronian design) which are clearly modeled to include cockpits etc. for carrying passengers, and yet they are obviously too small to accommodate humans (the only exceptions being [[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]], [[Sureshock]] and [[High Wire]], who become small one-man vehicles... well, ''[[Energon (franchise)|Energon]]'' Grindor doesn't). Who then these smaller-than-human passengers could possibly be is something of a mystery, setting aside the posibility that the mini-cons simply scan "normal" vehicle modes and resize them to fit their smaller bodies.

In the [[Cybertron (cartoon)|''Cybertron'' cartoon]], the [[Recon Mini-Con Team]] retain their slightly-larger-than-human robot modes, but their alternate modes are large enough to contain a human passenger.

== Micromaster scale ==
By the same token as Mini-Cons, [[Micromaster]]s are depicted as being roughly human-sized, and yet virtually all turn into real (albeit generic) earth vehicles that are patently incapable of fitting human passangers inside them. The illogic of this was never really addressed in contemporaneous G1 fictions, however the [[Dreamwave]] miniseries ''[[Micromasters]]'' hinted at some kind of explanation, but it was pretty much bollocks. The Marvel comic series featured some of them size-changing to vehicles that definitely ''were'' to human scale (as humans got in them), but this wasn't applied consistently (it also brings up the question of how much energy the downsizing really saves if they have to change their mass every time they transform).

Like their larger G1 brothers, the Micromaster line was plagued with scale problems even within the line itself, as all Micromasters conformed to a virutally identical robot-mode height yet transformed into all manner of vehicles which would be drastically different sizes to each other if they were supposed to be in relative scale. Furthermore, some Micromaster bases transformed into vehicle altmodes much larger than their operators, creating a further scale headache. However, there is no indication in any fiction that the Micromasters were, unlike the rest of G1, even ''supposed'' to have any accurate scale, even compared to each other. What, therefore, was the point of their "realistic" altmodes (other than to sell cute mini-toys) is anyone's guess.

== Citybots ==
[[Image:EarlyGalvatronTVMagazine1.jpg|right|300px|thumb|Okay, if you were ever ''this'' big in the cartoon, THEN we might be able to call you a city.]]

The characters [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]], [[Trypticon]], [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] each have altmodes which are described as a "city" (with Fort Max being supposedly the biggest of the 4). However, the scale at which they could plausibly house enough humans, ''let alone'' Transformers to be in any way reasonably defined as a "city" would suggest a robot-mode scale that would make [[Hojoni|Godzilla]] look like a gecko. No fiction to date, not even the very large depictions in the Japanese ''[[Headmasters (cartoon)|Headmasters]]'' cartoon, even ''begins'' to approximate the size that a true "citybot" would logically become. In reality, the grossly-undersized depiction of [[Unicron]] (see below) would probably be closer to the scale of an actual transformed city. Which is ironic, as in Season 3 of the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] Unicron requires citybot eyes to replace his own shattered ones. That's right, citybot eyes fit a ''planet''bot. Explain that one...

Rare examples which even suggest such a realistic city scale include occasional Japanese promotional art (e.g. see left).

Furthermore, there is virtually no way to reconcile the "city" altmodes of the actual toys with any believable use of the term. Using windows as even a vague scale, they would hardly qualify as a city ''block''. The cartoon episode ''[[Thief in the Night]]'' makes some headway in explaining this via an establishing shot that shows Metroplex to be only a small smaller sub-section of the "actual" Autobot City, although this was not repeated. It seems that in Transformer terms, "city" is better read as "large building".

Although little fiction to date has significantly featured the Headmaster leaders fulfilling their "city" roles, they have in the Japanese-exclusive cartoons been employed in their tertiary modes as massive starships capable of transporting and housing many normal-sized transformers. Conversely, the Marvel [[Generation 1 (comic)|G1 comic]] depicted Fort Max and Scorpy as merely "large-standard" size characters, of an equal height to Powermaster Optimus Prime and, in some UK issues, even the same as Rodimus Prime (to be fair, Powermaster Prime was often drawn "undersized" in the comics). Parts of ''[[Time Wars]]'' were notable in this department for featuring characters as diverse as [[Goldbug]], Fortress Maximus and [[Blaster]] as all being the ''exact'' same height.

== Planets ==
[[Image:Cybertronplanet.jpg|left|thumb|Those are some mondo gigantically big buildings...and a mondo gigantically big gash.]]

Scale when it comes to planets is almost so fraught it's actively painful. The logic problems of describing citybots as "cities" is a thousand times worse if [[Unicron]] is supposed to have a planet-sized altmode, and that Cybertron is in turn supposed to be in scale with him. Although different fictions have compared both [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]/[[Primus]] and Unicron to drastically different Sol-system planets, the fact remains that they are supposed to be ''planets'', and yet across most fictions they are shown in such insane scale-relation to characters that it would suggest they are barely the size of a very, very small moon (or a space station).

To start with, [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] itself was depicted throughout G1 as having buildings visible from space. Although this was clearly intended to make it immediately obvious that the planet was entirely technological in nature, it actually makes no sense whatsoever, as such structures would have to be the size of small continents to actually be visible from such a distance. If the buildings were in fact supposed to be Transformers-scale skyscrapers (or even 2000 A.D. style mega-bocks), Cybertron would therefore be barely a fraction the size of Earth's [[Moon (moon)|Moon]]. By comparison, the rather [http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/index.html Coruscant]-like orbit-views of Cybertron in the ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'' cartoon may be less distinctive or recognizably "Cybertronian", but are ''far'' more believable.

[[Image:UnicronEatsGalvyMmmm.jpg|right|thumb|400px|Either Galvy is humungo, or Lithone is ''tiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnyyyyy!!!'']]

Unicron, however, is a much more extreme problem. If one presumes that no obvious [[size changing]] occurs during his transformation (and really, why would he want to become ''smaller''?), he would be so massive that any shot that features even a ''part'' of his body, let alone the whole thing, would be of such a scale that no normal Transformer, however massive, would even be visible in the same frame. His depiction in the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie (1986)|The Transformers: The Movie]]'' in which he directly interacts with normal-sized Cybertronian characters is blatantly absurd (regardless of how totally phat it looks). Shots such as the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] fleeing his grasping hand, a starship penetrating his eye or ''especially'' picking up Galvatron between his thumb and forefinger before swallowing him (or, similarly in the comic, impaling [[Brainstorm (G1)|Brainstorm]] on his fingernail before crunching him between his teeth) bend any concept of plausible scale beyond breaking point. If Unicron is the size of a planet, his hands would be the size of continents. This would make Galvatron the size of Great Britain.

There is no possible explanation for any of this. Just go with it.

The depiction of Unicron's scale in ''[[Armada]]'' was (very debatably) a slight improvement, at least in as much as the concept of physical interaction (or much bodily movement for that matter) with such tiny beings was not even attempted, preferring instead to communicate with normal Transformers by possessing [[Sideways|another body]] in their own scale. Nevertheless, shots featuring [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] and [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] standing on his neck region are still ''farcically'' out of scale.

== ''Beast Era'' scale ==
[[Image:RattrapLOVEScheetor.jpg|thumb|250px|right|I'm tellin' ya, ''all'' da rats in Brooklyn are dis big!]]
In the ''[[Beast Era]]'' scale is not such a large issue, although it certainly does crop up in less obvious (depending on your point of view) ways.

=== Real world scale ===
Although the Beast Warriors all seem to exist quite happily in their own relative scale, their scale in relation to the real-world animals they have adopted as [[altmode]]s is more problematic. While the "giant insect" characters such as [[Waspinator]] and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] are obviously not in real world scale, when considered carefully virtually none of the characters actually are. The only characters who have been clearly depicted interacting with real members of their adopted species are [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Tigatron]], who (to take the former example) is seen attempting to interact with other cheetahs in ''[[Beast Wars, Part 1]]'', who react in fright. Cheetor was shown here to be in the same scale as real cheetahs, which effectively makes him the measuring stick for all other characters. [[Rattrap]] is therefore obviously a monstrously huge rat, about the size of a large dog, [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] is a rather small rhinoceros, and [[Optimus Primal]] is probably a roughly normal-sized gorilla. However, [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] is therefore an positively dwarfish specimen of a ''Tyrannosaurus rex,'' possibly closer to a [[Wikipedia: Nanotyrannus|Nanotyrannus]].

The ''[[Beast Wars]]'' writers once noted that first-season Rattrap was five feet (1.5 metres) tall, and that the other characters can be scaled around that. This would make Rattrap one of the few Transformers who are ''shorter'' than the average adult human in robot mode.

In their few interactions with (adult) protohumans, the Cybertronian characters seem between twice and three times the average height of protohumans. Considering human ancestors really were smaller than modern humans, this scale issue is not as extreme as it may appear, but the point deserves addressing.

=== Scale relative to G1 ===
[[Image:Beastwarriors scale.jpg|thumb|left|Beast Megatron's size vs. Optimus Prime in America... and Japan. I guess the Blastizone adds on a few tons to [[Beast Era]] characters]]

[[Size changing]] appears to be a thing of the past by the Beast Era, as the majority of the Cybertronian race seems to have considerably downgraded in size, apparently due to the [[Maximal Upgrade]] Program (although this is of course a backwards rationalization, since the show's basic premise requires the characters to transform into (vaguely) normal-sized animals, compared to the G1 characters transforming into large vehicles etc.). When entering the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], the Beast Warriors are very small compared to the dormant G1 characters, especially [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]. They are roughly the size humans should be (but usually weren't) depicted in relation to these characters.

On the other hand ''[[Robot Masters]]'' depicted G1 and BW characters like [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Optimus Primal]] as being exactly the same size. Yup. It's possible that passage through the [[Blasty Zone]] may somehow [[Wikipedia:Boom tube#Later Additions to the Concept|account for this discrepancy]],
{{-}}

=== Toy scale vs. cartoon scale ===
[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|right|thumb|350px|Pick the Ultra-class figure.]]

The first season's cast of ''[[Beast Wars |Beast Wars]]'' characters were not designed in the same relative scale to each other as depicted in the toyline, although from Season 2 onwards the scales (and general toy-accuracy) of the cartoon became much more consistent with the toys.

For example, of the Season 1 Maximal crew, [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], Cheetor, [[Tigatron (BW)|Tigatron]] and Rhinox are all from the same deluxe [[size class]], while [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and Rattrap are considerably smaller basics. Optimus Primal, an ultra, stands at virtually twice the size of the deluxes. In the show, Dinobot is the tallest, followed by Rhinox and a slightly shorter Optimus Primal, shorter again is Tigatron, while shorter still is Cheetor (despite being an identical mold) and Airazor, while Rattrap is marginally the shortest, but by no means to such a degree as his toy would suggest.

The ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]''' toyline was far worse in terms of scale discrepancies with its cartoon, with the tallest character [[Silverbolt (Fuzor)|Silverbolt]] becoming the shortest ([[micro-continuity|show-featured]]) Maximal toy, and similarly the diminutive [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] was enlarged to a massive ultra-class. And, sadly, the most show-accurate toy in the line (well, ''sorta'' in the line...) "Air Attack [[Optimus Primal]]" was rendered as an enormous supreme figure, completely incompatible with the other toys.

==External links==
*[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/6db411e03e75a342?dmode=source Estimated "real-life" heights for several Transformers, derived from the size of their alt-modes, archived from alt.toys.transformers on groups.google.com]

[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Planets]]
[[Category:Toys]]
[[Category:Technology]]
[[Category:Fandom]]
[[Category: Things that don't exist]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Continuity

2007-07-21T21:04:48Z

Ronimus Prime: /* featured? */

==featured?==
I was thinking... this and the continuity family article should either be featured articles... or even "right off the main page all the time" articles. I think the information they contain should be touted as important reading. Thoughts? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 08:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:I think they are important enough to get some special emphasis, yes. They're very well written as is. My only suggestion is a small one (and I'm not entirely sure how best to implement it) but they're rather visually boring at the moment. I know they don't immediately lend them selves to it but if we could cook up some more pics to serve as visual aids that would liven things up immensly.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 12:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:I still feel like the articles are a bit of a mess, although I don't know that they could ever ''not'' be messy. I think the idea of linking to them more prominently is a good one, but... maybe not quite yet. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 15:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::Well, a good image for the "multiverse" portion could be a photo of a bunch of the various TF medias. A Marvel comic, an IDW comic, a DW comic, an old G1 coloring book and storybook, a G1 cartoon videotape, the RID DVD cover, some UT fiction (storybook, maybe?), BW DVD cover... Legends... I'd do it except I don't have any of those of G1 storybooks anymore. (I DO have the "See & Read" videocassette, though...)<br>
::The "Unified Japanese continuities"... pity that flash timeline doesn't really screen-grab well. Hm. "Continuity soup" could certainly use a scan of a post- BW G1 story mentioning "sparks".... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::: I have added a pic of Optimus Prime's spark from Primeval Dawn in Continuity Soup. [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 20:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

==old discussion==
I dislike refering to RiD as a first-contact story, as in episode 3, the train station personel recognized Optimus Prime, and seemed ot have a fairly good grasp of him being the good guy to Preds' bad guy.
A perponderance of evidence within the cartoon would appear to indicate that RiD was not first-contact, but that there had been some previous period of public TF activity on Earth. (That activity being based on parts of the G1 cartoon.)

Also, the description of the Unicron Trilogy, though factually accurate, is muddled. I was glazing over while reading it.

:I've made some minor modifications to address your concerns. I at least partially agree with you about the RID thing -- the story told in the cartoon is clearly not the Transformers' first contact with humans in that timeline, as a big part of the story centers around TF contact with ancient humans. My original wording was a little clumsy.

:Also, I removed the mention of the manga that XBob put into the "prominant g1 continuities" list. If I'm mistaken about this, somebody should feel free to put it back in again, but I was under the impression that the manga wasn't, in general, in-continuity with the TV shows. I had already made mention of the manga's existence in the Japanese continuities section, and I think that is probably sufficient. Certainly among English-speakings fans at least, the G1 manga is not a "prominant" continuity.

:As a reminder to everyone using Talk pages, please sign your comments so other editors can tell who said what and when they said it. You can sign automatically by writing four tilde (~) characters in a row. There is even a "signature" button at the top of the edit area which will insert this automatically.

:--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 05:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

That's good to know. Thanks.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

>>Also, I removed the mention of the manga that XBob put into the "prominant g1 continuities" list. If I'm mistaken about this, somebody should feel free to put it back in again, but I was under the impression that the manga wasn't, in general, in-continuity with the TV shows. I had already made mention of the manga's existence in the Japanese continuities section, and I think that is probably sufficient. Certainly among English-speakings fans at least, the G1 manga is not a "prominant" continuity.<<

IIRC The G1 Manga's plosts were so simple(Save the animals from the Destrons!!!) that theres hardly any chance for contradiction, same thing goes for 2010 and Headmasters. The masterforce, and the victory manga however do conterdict. And the Zone-Operation Combination mangas seem to be in contuity with the TV show If I'm not mistaken X-BoB58
: A note in the final paragraph (the one mentioning the manga) about how those fit into continuity would be appropriate, then. But you should also find out about the other, non-G1 manga if you want to include that, so readers aren't confused. But the in-continuity status of those is worth at least a brief mention. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 21:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
:The Zone manga is a retelling of the first OVA episode. However, the character designs for Kain, Akira and the Destron Demon-Generals are all different. As well, Bruticus shows up (he wasn't in the OVA) and the homoerotic subtext between Akira and Kain doesn't seem present. Otherwise, the events happen more-or-less as animated.--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 03:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The beastwars II and Neo Manga's arn't in continuity, and I don't think the UT mangas are either(withn the exception of linkage)

XBob, everything Takara or Hasbro publishes is "canon" in that it's "official." Transformers has no singular canon other than the recent notion of a unified multiverse. The phrase "aren't in canon" has basically no meaning pertaining to Transformers fiction. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:04, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Zac made [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Continuities&curid=1519&diff=34284&oldid=34254 some edits] to the page, most of which I like, but I, personally, have a strong preference for the old opening sentence. I recognize that my opening was a little unusual-sounding, but it was direct and specific. So... rather than just reverting it I figured I'd see if anybody else cares? Did everyone, on reading my old opening, think "what the hell is he on about?" If so, I'll let it go. (Although I do think that at the least, the mention of comic books in the new one is unnecessary and just gets in the way.) --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 16:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
: I preferred your original opening statement, which was more clear, so I reverted. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sure some will think the added image contains some mistakes (and some lacks, it's already several years old), but it still illustrate the subject quite well and give a rather good recap of the whole thing--[[User:GUIGUI|GUIGUI]] 02:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It's my understanding that ''Galaxy Force'' has been reconciled with the rest of the Japanese Unicron Trilogy, though the explanation didn't comefrom the cartoon proper. Is that correct?[[User:Chip|Chip]] 06:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
:I think you're referring to the DVD booklet that connected Unicron to Planet X and explained the ending images. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 06:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

== The impossible japanese continuity retcon ==

I don't read Japanese, but I can already feel just how auto-contradicting the G1 storyline retcon on the new TakaraTomy site is: http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/table.html
Is it possible to not recognize it canon despite it being official?

What I want to know is where that image of Cerebros transforming into Fortress's head came from. I don't recall Fortress's head transforming into anything in the Headmasters show, and I know those aren't ''Rebirth'' models. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 23:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

:It's from ''Headmasters'', alright, from the singular time that transformation happened, in the flashback episode to when the Headmasters were learning to transform. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 23:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

*Yeah, that timeline is a bit of a clusterfuck. Trying to shoehorn Car Robot in there is especially painful. Though, this sort of "official yet non-sensical timeline" thing isn't exclusive to Transformers. Shigeru Miyamoto once belted out a Zelda timeline which has been ignored by just about everyone because it made absolutely no sense. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
:The Zelda time line is not ignored. A lot of people consider each game happens in the same universe in the same continuity. It's just the correct order that has never been clearly figured out. But that's beside the point. So back to the it, using that Zelda/Shigy case is not really a good argument to rule out that new retcon.

:T'would seem to me that the only real problem is the random insertion of Car Robots - everything else that has been retroactively inserted into the G1 timeline (Robot Masters, Binaltech, Kiss Players) has managed to fit itself in there through the use of enough fiddly stuff to work fairly well. Binaltech, but the end of it's own story, has been diverged off as an alternate universe, while Robot Masters allowed itself to work through time travel, and as insane as Kiss Players is, they kept their ducks in a row, and by the end of the story everything was in a position to allow 2010 to occur unmolested (heh). It even managed to explain Daniel's lack of aging between the movie and 2010. Well, I'm assuming Prime, er, died again. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 01:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

::Except the new movie is in there too; or does the red color mean something different? (And I like the entry for the launch of Voyager, heh)[[User:EricMarrs|EricMarrs]] 01:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
:: The red colors are just signifying that those two white trails are part of the same line. The red is the hyphen at the linebreak, so to speak. I think it's safe to say that Car Robots is part of J-G1 while RiD is not part of US-G1. Sort of like how, for most of Galaxy Force, it was not considered part of the UT over there, but Cybertron definitely was over here. (Of course, that's not the case anymore. See the same page.) There are plenty of US materials that contradict the Japanese G1 timeline. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

T6heir timeline places the Voyager prome launch witht he golden disk in 1977. Does it say which specific Voyager? (1 or 2?)

IIRC, I did a comparison once and the design of the satellite we saw,though similar to 1 and 2, matches neither, so it was probably meant to be a fictional subsequent launch, but if Japan SAYS it's Voyager 2, I'm willing to accept that.

Can someone who reads Japanese tell me? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Continuity

2007-07-21T20:58:25Z

Ronimus Prime: /* featured? */

==featured?==
I was thinking... this and the continuity family article should either be featured articles... or even "right off the main page all the time" articles. I think the information they contain should be touted as important reading. Thoughts? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 08:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:I think they are important enough to get some special emphasis, yes. They're very well written as is. My only suggestion is a small one (and I'm not entirely sure how best to implement it) but they're rather visually boring at the moment. I know they don't immediately lend them selves to it but if we could cook up some more pics to serve as visual aids that would liven things up immensly.--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 12:09, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

:I still feel like the articles are a bit of a mess, although I don't know that they could ever ''not'' be messy. I think the idea of linking to them more prominently is a good one, but... maybe not quite yet. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 15:03, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

::Well, a good image for the "multiverse" portion could be a photo of a bunch of the various TF medias. A Marvel comic, an IDW comic, a DW comic, an old G1 coloring book and storybook, a G1 cartoon videotape, the RID DVD cover, some UT fiction (storybook, maybe?), BW DVD cover... Legends... I'd do it except I don't have any of those of G1 storybooks anymore. (I DO have the "See & Read" videocassette, though...)<br>
::The "Unified Japanese continuities"... pity that flash timeline doesn't really screen-grab well. Hm. "Continuity soup" could certainly use a scan of a post- BW G1 story mentioning "sparks".... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 22:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
::: I have added a pic in Continuity Soup from Primeval Dawn. [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 20:58, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

==old discussion==
I dislike refering to RiD as a first-contact story, as in episode 3, the train station personel recognized Optimus Prime, and seemed ot have a fairly good grasp of him being the good guy to Preds' bad guy.
A perponderance of evidence within the cartoon would appear to indicate that RiD was not first-contact, but that there had been some previous period of public TF activity on Earth. (That activity being based on parts of the G1 cartoon.)

Also, the description of the Unicron Trilogy, though factually accurate, is muddled. I was glazing over while reading it.

:I've made some minor modifications to address your concerns. I at least partially agree with you about the RID thing -- the story told in the cartoon is clearly not the Transformers' first contact with humans in that timeline, as a big part of the story centers around TF contact with ancient humans. My original wording was a little clumsy.

:Also, I removed the mention of the manga that XBob put into the "prominant g1 continuities" list. If I'm mistaken about this, somebody should feel free to put it back in again, but I was under the impression that the manga wasn't, in general, in-continuity with the TV shows. I had already made mention of the manga's existence in the Japanese continuities section, and I think that is probably sufficient. Certainly among English-speakings fans at least, the G1 manga is not a "prominant" continuity.

:As a reminder to everyone using Talk pages, please sign your comments so other editors can tell who said what and when they said it. You can sign automatically by writing four tilde (~) characters in a row. There is even a "signature" button at the top of the edit area which will insert this automatically.

:--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 05:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

That's good to know. Thanks.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:29, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

>>Also, I removed the mention of the manga that XBob put into the "prominant g1 continuities" list. If I'm mistaken about this, somebody should feel free to put it back in again, but I was under the impression that the manga wasn't, in general, in-continuity with the TV shows. I had already made mention of the manga's existence in the Japanese continuities section, and I think that is probably sufficient. Certainly among English-speakings fans at least, the G1 manga is not a "prominant" continuity.<<

IIRC The G1 Manga's plosts were so simple(Save the animals from the Destrons!!!) that theres hardly any chance for contradiction, same thing goes for 2010 and Headmasters. The masterforce, and the victory manga however do conterdict. And the Zone-Operation Combination mangas seem to be in contuity with the TV show If I'm not mistaken X-BoB58
: A note in the final paragraph (the one mentioning the manga) about how those fit into continuity would be appropriate, then. But you should also find out about the other, non-G1 manga if you want to include that, so readers aren't confused. But the in-continuity status of those is worth at least a brief mention. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 21:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
:The Zone manga is a retelling of the first OVA episode. However, the character designs for Kain, Akira and the Destron Demon-Generals are all different. As well, Bruticus shows up (he wasn't in the OVA) and the homoerotic subtext between Akira and Kain doesn't seem present. Otherwise, the events happen more-or-less as animated.--[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 03:10, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The beastwars II and Neo Manga's arn't in continuity, and I don't think the UT mangas are either(withn the exception of linkage)

XBob, everything Takara or Hasbro publishes is "canon" in that it's "official." Transformers has no singular canon other than the recent notion of a unified multiverse. The phrase "aren't in canon" has basically no meaning pertaining to Transformers fiction. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:04, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Zac made [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Continuities&curid=1519&diff=34284&oldid=34254 some edits] to the page, most of which I like, but I, personally, have a strong preference for the old opening sentence. I recognize that my opening was a little unusual-sounding, but it was direct and specific. So... rather than just reverting it I figured I'd see if anybody else cares? Did everyone, on reading my old opening, think "what the hell is he on about?" If so, I'll let it go. (Although I do think that at the least, the mention of comic books in the new one is unnecessary and just gets in the way.) --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 16:12, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
: I preferred your original opening statement, which was more clear, so I reverted. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I am sure some will think the added image contains some mistakes (and some lacks, it's already several years old), but it still illustrate the subject quite well and give a rather good recap of the whole thing--[[User:GUIGUI|GUIGUI]] 02:44, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It's my understanding that ''Galaxy Force'' has been reconciled with the rest of the Japanese Unicron Trilogy, though the explanation didn't comefrom the cartoon proper. Is that correct?[[User:Chip|Chip]] 06:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
:I think you're referring to the DVD booklet that connected Unicron to Planet X and explained the ending images. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 06:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

== The impossible japanese continuity retcon ==

I don't read Japanese, but I can already feel just how auto-contradicting the G1 storyline retcon on the new TakaraTomy site is: http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/table.html
Is it possible to not recognize it canon despite it being official?

What I want to know is where that image of Cerebros transforming into Fortress's head came from. I don't recall Fortress's head transforming into anything in the Headmasters show, and I know those aren't ''Rebirth'' models. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 23:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

:It's from ''Headmasters'', alright, from the singular time that transformation happened, in the flashback episode to when the Headmasters were learning to transform. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 23:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

*Yeah, that timeline is a bit of a clusterfuck. Trying to shoehorn Car Robot in there is especially painful. Though, this sort of "official yet non-sensical timeline" thing isn't exclusive to Transformers. Shigeru Miyamoto once belted out a Zelda timeline which has been ignored by just about everyone because it made absolutely no sense. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 23:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
:The Zelda time line is not ignored. A lot of people consider each game happens in the same universe in the same continuity. It's just the correct order that has never been clearly figured out. But that's beside the point. So back to the it, using that Zelda/Shigy case is not really a good argument to rule out that new retcon.

:T'would seem to me that the only real problem is the random insertion of Car Robots - everything else that has been retroactively inserted into the G1 timeline (Robot Masters, Binaltech, Kiss Players) has managed to fit itself in there through the use of enough fiddly stuff to work fairly well. Binaltech, but the end of it's own story, has been diverged off as an alternate universe, while Robot Masters allowed itself to work through time travel, and as insane as Kiss Players is, they kept their ducks in a row, and by the end of the story everything was in a position to allow 2010 to occur unmolested (heh). It even managed to explain Daniel's lack of aging between the movie and 2010. Well, I'm assuming Prime, er, died again. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 01:13, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

::Except the new movie is in there too; or does the red color mean something different? (And I like the entry for the launch of Voyager, heh)[[User:EricMarrs|EricMarrs]] 01:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
:: The red colors are just signifying that those two white trails are part of the same line. The red is the hyphen at the linebreak, so to speak. I think it's safe to say that Car Robots is part of J-G1 while RiD is not part of US-G1. Sort of like how, for most of Galaxy Force, it was not considered part of the UT over there, but Cybertron definitely was over here. (Of course, that's not the case anymore. See the same page.) There are plenty of US materials that contradict the Japanese G1 timeline. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

T6heir timeline places the Voyager prome launch witht he golden disk in 1977. Does it say which specific Voyager? (1 or 2?)

IIRC, I did a comparison once and the design of the satellite we saw,though similar to 1 and 2, matches neither, so it was probably meant to be a fictional subsequent launch, but if Japan SAYS it's Voyager 2, I'm willing to accept that.

Can someone who reads Japanese tell me? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Continuity

2007-07-21T17:39:05Z

Ronimus Prime: /* Continuity soup */

[[Image:Continuities.png|right|thumb|450px|If you squint, you can see the [[Tonka GoBots|GoBots]] way off in the distance.]]

A '''continuity''' is a fictional universe or timeline that is characterized by recurring characters and settings and an internal consistency with regards to characterization and depicted events.

Typically, stories that are produced by a particular licensor (such as [[IDW]]) or in a particular form of media (such as comic books) are ''in continuity'' with each other, meaning that they are meant to all take place in the same "world".

This is not, however, always the case -- for example, the IDW comic [[Evolutions|''Transformers Evolutions'']] consists of stories that are explicitly set in different universes than the other IDW comics. IDW's own ''Beast Wars'' comics are also separate from their "main" continuity. The various [[coloring book]]s published by [[Marvel]] in the 1980s might all take place in the same universe as each other, but there are no direct ties between them, and they could easily each be "in their own little world".

Still, even in cases such as these, there are important similarities. Even though ''Evolutions''' first story, "[[Hearts of Steel]]" can't fit in the same story-world as ''[[Infiltration|Transformers: Infiltration]]'', they are alternate worlds in a relatively minor sense -- the same Transformers characters are present in both, they just interact with humanity at a different point in time. Marvel's coloring books disagree on many points with the Marvel comic books, but they agree on many points as well. Thus, although the coloring books and the comics are not in continuity with each other, their similarities allow both to be categorized as being members of a [[Generation 1]] "[[continuity family]]".

==Multiverse==

Moreso than most science-fiction franchises, ''Transformers'' has been, from the very start, a collection of many varied continuities. Even before the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] premiered, there was the [[Generation 1 (Marvel comic)|Marvel comic series]] and an array of Marvel-produced storybooks which cannot be reconciled with each other, resulting in myriad [[micro-continuity|micro-continuities]]. There have been ''so many'' mutually exclusive Transformers continuities that a truly exhaustive list would be nearly impossible to complete. However, it is relatively easy to list the major continuity "families".

There is a subjective component to all of this, and each fan decides for themselves how "fine-grained" they want their own personal list of continuities to be. Ultimately, it could be argued that almost every story exists in its own exclusive continuity -- even different stories that were clearly intended to be set in the same universe. For example, two episodes of the G1 cartoon series that make no explicit references to events in each other, but are both "descendants" of the episode "[[More Than Meets the Eye, Part 1|More Than Meets the Eye]]", could arguably exist in different universes. There may be no particular reason to assert that they don't share continuity, but there is also no clear internal evidence that the events of one affected the world of the other. They might concievably be set in different branches of a timeline that started with MTMTE.

The most inclusive perspective is to consider all [[canon]]ical Transformers stories as existing within a multiverse which contains countless -- perhaps infinite -- alternate universes. Some of these universes are more closely related to each other than others, but they are all part of the same whole. This approach has been officially sanctioned in a number of stories, most notably ''[[Universe (franchise)|Transformers: Universe]]'' which takes the existence of an overall ''Transformers'' multiverse as the core of its story.

==Meta-continuity==
[[Image:TFUjailbreak.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Hey, there's Waldo!]]

The ''[[Universe (franchise)|Transformers: Universe]]'' franchise (sometimes referred to as "TFU") attempted to create an overarching structure to the ''Transformers'' multiverse. It was helmed, fiction-wise, by [[3H Productions]], who then held the license to run the official ''Transformers'' convention, [[BotCon]]. Convention fiction starting in the year 1997 was directly incorporated into ''Universe'', although it wasn't until [[BotCon 2002]] that the term ''Transformers: Expanded Universe'' appeared on a BotCon toy box, and the name was shortened to just ''Transformers: Universe'' afterwards. The [[Universe (toyline)|''Universe'' toyline]] eventually became the home of not just convention exclusive toys, but also other repaints and store exclusives that were sold in normal retail outlets. The bios for the ''Universe'' characters were primarily the responsibility of 3H.

The ''Universe'' meta-continuity officially established the idea of a ''Transformers'' multiverse and pulled together many elements from other ''Transformers'' continuities, focusing heavily on variations of ''Beast Machines'' and ''Generation 1''. 3H's comic book series, ''Wreckers'' and ''Universe'', brought together characters from many parallel universes and are the primary sources of information about this meta-continuity. Character bios published in convention programs, fan club newsletters, and on the 3H and Hasbro websites also contribute.

Among other things, the ''Universe'' universe makes some reconciliation between conflicting origins for [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and the Transformers race that were presented in the G1 comics, G1 cartoon, and BM cartoon. It also incorporates the otherwise ignored sub-toylines ''[[Mutant (BW)|Beast Wars Mutants]]'' and ''[[Dinobots (toyline)|Dinobots]]'' into its fiction, and is the earliest example of a story that asserts (or implies) that there is only one [[Unicron]] who travels from one universe to another, rather than an infinite array of Unicrons in different universes.

[[Fun Publications]], the company that followed 3H in running the official convention and fan club has since produced a comic series of its own; ''Transformers [[Timelines]]''. Though spinning its main story out of [[Cybertron]] rather than the Beast era (and not supported by any mass retail toyline), ''Timelines'' bears a few direct story-connections to ''Universe'' and is the spiritual inheritor of its multiverse-exploring footsteps.

==Major continuity families==

At this time, there are five primary [[continuity family|continuity families]] in the ''Transformers'' multiverse. These are:

*'''[[Generation 1]]/[[Beast Era]]'''
*'''[[Robots in Disguise]]'''
*the '''[[Unicron Trilogy]]'''
*the '''[[Movie (franchise)|2007 Transformers movie]]'''
*and the soon to begin [[Transformers Animated|Transformers Animated]] universe.

There is also a much less prominent continuity family centered on the Playskool [[Go-Bots (toyline)|Go-Bots toyline]]. Every (or nearly every) ''Transformers'' story can be easily fit into one of these families, even if its precise continuity can't be pinned down.

For further information about these continuity families, and families in general, please see '''[[Continuity family]]'''.

==Prominent ''Generation 1'' continuities==

Within G1 there are an almost uncountable number of established alternate universes. Some of these continuities are extremely obscure, such as the timeline which houses [[Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth|the second Commodore 64 video game]]. On the other hand, the G1 cartoon is so widely-known that even many members of the general public (i.e., not fans) would be familiar with it, and quite possibly unaware that there even ''are'' other Transformers stories besides it and the 2007 live-action film.

Following is a ''very'' incomplete list showing only the most prominent G1 continuities and their relationships to each other. For the purposes of this list, only G1-proper will be considered, and not the extended-G1 that includes G2, MW, and the ''Beast'' series. Additionally, in keeping with {{SITENAME}}'s policy, the live-action film is not included as it is treated as an independent continuity family rather than a part of G1.

*Cartoons (Japanese) - Includes the first three seasons of the American cartoons as well as three additional TV series, two OVAs and a [[manga]] series.
**Cartoons (American) - Three complete seasons of varying length, and a 3-episode "fourth season". Probably the best-known of all continuities. The American cartoons can roughly -- but but not without conflicts -- sit as a subset within the Japanese cartoons.

*Marvel UK comics - Includes the American comics as well as nearly 100% more material that was published exclusively in the UK until being reprinted internationally in the 2000s.
**Marvel US comics - Includes ''[[Generation 1 (comic)|Transformers]]'', ''[[Headmasters (comic)|Transformers: Headmasters]]'', and the character profile series ''[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)|Transformers Universe]]''. The comic book adaptation of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'' is out of continuity with the other Marvel comics. As with the US and Japanese cartoons, the US comics can be roughly seen as a subset of the UK comics.

*Dreamwave G1 comics - A new continuity with much of the flavor of the original cartoon series, but a very different history. Includes the three "G1" volumes as well as three volumes of ''The War Within'' and a ''Micromasters'' miniseries.

*IDW G1 comics - Begins with ''Transformers: Infiltration'', published in 2005 smd continues through most (though not all) of IDWs Transformer miniseries.

==Unified Japanese continuities==

In Japan, every Transformers cartoon until the release of ''[[Robots in Disguise|Car Robots]]'' (the original, Japanese title for ''Robots in Disguise'') can be somewhat easily fit into a single unified continuity, much like the unified American G1/Beast continuity. This includes the American G1 cartoon (minus Season 4, which Japan did not air) and Beast series as well as ''[[Headmasters (cartoon)|Headmasters]]'', ''[[Masterforce]]'', ''[[Victory (cartoon)|Victory]]'', ''[[Beast Wars II]]'', and ''[[Beast Wars Neo]]''. Despite this additional story material, they can all be fit together.

In Japan, then, ''Car Robots'' was the first full reboot. Following CR, ''[[Micron Legend]]'' and ''[[Superlink]]'' were connected into a third major Japanese continuity, and then -- as noted above -- ''Galaxy Force'' started a fourth.

In 2007, however, [[TakaraTomy]] posted on their website an [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/table.html official timeline] for their G1 universe. This timeline appears to perform some significant [[retcon]]s, claiming that ''Car Robots'' and the live-action movie both take place in the same G1 universe as all of the Japanese cartoons, ''[[Robot Masters]]'', ''[[BinalTech]]'', and ''[[Kiss Players]]''. A ''great deal'' of explication would be required to make this work even even in a rough, nails sticking out, not-safe-for-children kind of fashion (though the time travel and reality changing rampant in the last three series might simplify things a small amount). The same website also retcons ''Galaxy Force'' back into the same timeline as ''Micron Legend'' and ''Superlink'' (as it had always been presented in the west).

It is unknown how seriously these retcons are going to be taken by future Japanese fiction.

In addition to the above, nearly every Japanese TF franchise has had ancillary manga published in magazines such as ''Comics Bon-Bon''. The relationship between the manga and cartoons varied. For example, the manga associated with the first two years of ''Transformers'' (pre-movie) can easily fit into the cartoon continuity, but would not contribute much of substance to the timeline. Some of the later G1 manga, however, such as those associated with ''[[Masterforce (franchise)|Masterforce]]'' and ''[[Victory (franchise)|Victory]]'' contradict the cartoons bearing the same names.

==Continuity soup==
[[Image:Sparkholderprimevaldawn.jpg|right|thumb|225px|[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s spark isn't naked. It has decency.]]

With the labyrinth of branching and criss-crossing timelines, it can be difficult at times to say exactly what comprises the history of any given ''Transformers'' universe. Over and over through the history of the ''Transformers'' brand, stories have been written which both extend pre-existing stories and also "fill in" pre-existing stories, adding details and retcons big and small. These extensions may be written years or even decades after the stories they are descended from. There may be multiple extensions which conflict with each other, written at different times, by different people, for different markets. ''Branching'' timelines, on their own, are not that difficult to keep straight, but the relationship between various ''Transformers'' stories is much more complex than that because of the way new stories will pick-and-choose elements from old stories. There are no real answers to the questions that arise from this practice. It becomes a very messy question of subjective tastes and opinions, leading to the idea of a [[personal canon]].

Consider the [[Beast Wars (cartoon)|''Beast Wars'' television series]]: It borrows elements from the American G1 cartoon and G1 comics. The past history of the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon's timeline is a mishmash, something that probably resembles the G1 cartoon more than anything else, but which differs from the cartoon in unknown ways and may include more (or less) of what we see in the Marvel Comics. BW is set in a G1 universe for which we have never seen -- and probably will never see -- more than tiny glimpses of the "G1 part". The history of that universe ''is not known'', even though we presumably know its broad outline.

So, what significance does information from ''Beast Wars'', such as the idea of the [[spark]], hold for those older stories? Since being introduced in "[[The Spark]]", sparks have become one of the most important and unifying concepts in all ''Transformers'' fiction, yet fiction which predates ''Beast Wars'', of course, never mentions them. G1-era fiction which was written post-''Beast Wars'' almost always includes them. Retconning sparks into most vintage G1 fiction is not all that difficult, but should it be done? Obviously the G1-esque universe in which the Beast series are set has sparks, but what about the ''actual'' G1 cartoon and comic universes? Do they have sparks? Does the G1 cartoon's future (and past) look like ''Beast Wars'' or like something else?

What if a new story instead claimed that its past was ''exactly'' like an old story rather than merely similar to it? The main storyline of the ''Universe'' and ''Wreckers'' comics is ostensibly set in the BW/BM cartoon continuity, happening alongside and immediately afterwards. Are revelations from ''Universe'' "true" in ''Beast Machines'', or is ''Universe'' actually set in a timeline which is identical to the BM timeline aside from those extra events occurring? Does your answer change when [[IDW Publishing]] releases a [[The Gathering|''Beast Wars'' comic]] which ''also'' claims to occur alongside the BW cartoon, but which cannot be reconciled with ''Universe''? What do you do with something like the [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (comic)|''Classics'' comics]] published in the official fan club newsletter? Those stories are set in the future of the US G1 comic. Except... that they ignore the UK G1 comic ''and'' the US G2 comic. According to G2, there is an [[Cybertronian Empire|offshoot race of Decepticons]] running around in space who have been away from Cybertron for millions of years. Is that still true in ''other'' offshoots of the G1 comic? Is [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]] out there in ''Classics''-comics space somewhere, and simply not visiting, or does he not exist at all? He ''could'' exist... but there is no way to know.

The only objective way to deal with all of this would be to take a very strict viewpoint on every story and never assume that anything is "true" unless it is explicitly stated in that story. Taken to an extreme, though, this stance can make it impossible to declare ''any'' two stories to share continuity, even two sequential episodes of a given TV series. For all we know, the new episode is set in a universe closely parallel to that of the previous episode but a little different. We wouldn't want to ''assume'' that a scene which wasn't shown in the recap actually occurred, after all. Especially if there's a continuity glitch of some sort, like the dialog in a recap being slightly different than the dialog from the earlier episode. So an absolutist "only what they showed" viewpoint can't really work. There has to be ''some'' concession; even "I'm going to treat all the episodes of this series as if they are one big story" is a subjective decision, one which another fan may find too restrictive or too liberal.

[[Category:Stories]]
[[Category:Continuities| ]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Continuity

2007-07-21T17:38:30Z

Ronimus Prime: /* Continuity soup */ Added an example of spark in post BW G1 comics.

[[Image:Continuities.png|right|thumb|450px|If you squint, you can see the [[Tonka GoBots|GoBots]] way off in the distance.]]

A '''continuity''' is a fictional universe or timeline that is characterized by recurring characters and settings and an internal consistency with regards to characterization and depicted events.

Typically, stories that are produced by a particular licensor (such as [[IDW]]) or in a particular form of media (such as comic books) are ''in continuity'' with each other, meaning that they are meant to all take place in the same "world".

This is not, however, always the case -- for example, the IDW comic [[Evolutions|''Transformers Evolutions'']] consists of stories that are explicitly set in different universes than the other IDW comics. IDW's own ''Beast Wars'' comics are also separate from their "main" continuity. The various [[coloring book]]s published by [[Marvel]] in the 1980s might all take place in the same universe as each other, but there are no direct ties between them, and they could easily each be "in their own little world".

Still, even in cases such as these, there are important similarities. Even though ''Evolutions''' first story, "[[Hearts of Steel]]" can't fit in the same story-world as ''[[Infiltration|Transformers: Infiltration]]'', they are alternate worlds in a relatively minor sense -- the same Transformers characters are present in both, they just interact with humanity at a different point in time. Marvel's coloring books disagree on many points with the Marvel comic books, but they agree on many points as well. Thus, although the coloring books and the comics are not in continuity with each other, their similarities allow both to be categorized as being members of a [[Generation 1]] "[[continuity family]]".

==Multiverse==

Moreso than most science-fiction franchises, ''Transformers'' has been, from the very start, a collection of many varied continuities. Even before the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|G1 cartoon]] premiered, there was the [[Generation 1 (Marvel comic)|Marvel comic series]] and an array of Marvel-produced storybooks which cannot be reconciled with each other, resulting in myriad [[micro-continuity|micro-continuities]]. There have been ''so many'' mutually exclusive Transformers continuities that a truly exhaustive list would be nearly impossible to complete. However, it is relatively easy to list the major continuity "families".

There is a subjective component to all of this, and each fan decides for themselves how "fine-grained" they want their own personal list of continuities to be. Ultimately, it could be argued that almost every story exists in its own exclusive continuity -- even different stories that were clearly intended to be set in the same universe. For example, two episodes of the G1 cartoon series that make no explicit references to events in each other, but are both "descendants" of the episode "[[More Than Meets the Eye, Part 1|More Than Meets the Eye]]", could arguably exist in different universes. There may be no particular reason to assert that they don't share continuity, but there is also no clear internal evidence that the events of one affected the world of the other. They might concievably be set in different branches of a timeline that started with MTMTE.

The most inclusive perspective is to consider all [[canon]]ical Transformers stories as existing within a multiverse which contains countless -- perhaps infinite -- alternate universes. Some of these universes are more closely related to each other than others, but they are all part of the same whole. This approach has been officially sanctioned in a number of stories, most notably ''[[Universe (franchise)|Transformers: Universe]]'' which takes the existence of an overall ''Transformers'' multiverse as the core of its story.

==Meta-continuity==
[[Image:TFUjailbreak.jpg|right|thumb|300px|Hey, there's Waldo!]]

The ''[[Universe (franchise)|Transformers: Universe]]'' franchise (sometimes referred to as "TFU") attempted to create an overarching structure to the ''Transformers'' multiverse. It was helmed, fiction-wise, by [[3H Productions]], who then held the license to run the official ''Transformers'' convention, [[BotCon]]. Convention fiction starting in the year 1997 was directly incorporated into ''Universe'', although it wasn't until [[BotCon 2002]] that the term ''Transformers: Expanded Universe'' appeared on a BotCon toy box, and the name was shortened to just ''Transformers: Universe'' afterwards. The [[Universe (toyline)|''Universe'' toyline]] eventually became the home of not just convention exclusive toys, but also other repaints and store exclusives that were sold in normal retail outlets. The bios for the ''Universe'' characters were primarily the responsibility of 3H.

The ''Universe'' meta-continuity officially established the idea of a ''Transformers'' multiverse and pulled together many elements from other ''Transformers'' continuities, focusing heavily on variations of ''Beast Machines'' and ''Generation 1''. 3H's comic book series, ''Wreckers'' and ''Universe'', brought together characters from many parallel universes and are the primary sources of information about this meta-continuity. Character bios published in convention programs, fan club newsletters, and on the 3H and Hasbro websites also contribute.

Among other things, the ''Universe'' universe makes some reconciliation between conflicting origins for [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and the Transformers race that were presented in the G1 comics, G1 cartoon, and BM cartoon. It also incorporates the otherwise ignored sub-toylines ''[[Mutant (BW)|Beast Wars Mutants]]'' and ''[[Dinobots (toyline)|Dinobots]]'' into its fiction, and is the earliest example of a story that asserts (or implies) that there is only one [[Unicron]] who travels from one universe to another, rather than an infinite array of Unicrons in different universes.

[[Fun Publications]], the company that followed 3H in running the official convention and fan club has since produced a comic series of its own; ''Transformers [[Timelines]]''. Though spinning its main story out of [[Cybertron]] rather than the Beast era (and not supported by any mass retail toyline), ''Timelines'' bears a few direct story-connections to ''Universe'' and is the spiritual inheritor of its multiverse-exploring footsteps.

==Major continuity families==

At this time, there are five primary [[continuity family|continuity families]] in the ''Transformers'' multiverse. These are:

*'''[[Generation 1]]/[[Beast Era]]'''
*'''[[Robots in Disguise]]'''
*the '''[[Unicron Trilogy]]'''
*the '''[[Movie (franchise)|2007 Transformers movie]]'''
*and the soon to begin [[Transformers Animated|Transformers Animated]] universe.

There is also a much less prominent continuity family centered on the Playskool [[Go-Bots (toyline)|Go-Bots toyline]]. Every (or nearly every) ''Transformers'' story can be easily fit into one of these families, even if its precise continuity can't be pinned down.

For further information about these continuity families, and families in general, please see '''[[Continuity family]]'''.

==Prominent ''Generation 1'' continuities==

Within G1 there are an almost uncountable number of established alternate universes. Some of these continuities are extremely obscure, such as the timeline which houses [[Transformers: Battle to Save the Earth|the second Commodore 64 video game]]. On the other hand, the G1 cartoon is so widely-known that even many members of the general public (i.e., not fans) would be familiar with it, and quite possibly unaware that there even ''are'' other Transformers stories besides it and the 2007 live-action film.

Following is a ''very'' incomplete list showing only the most prominent G1 continuities and their relationships to each other. For the purposes of this list, only G1-proper will be considered, and not the extended-G1 that includes G2, MW, and the ''Beast'' series. Additionally, in keeping with {{SITENAME}}'s policy, the live-action film is not included as it is treated as an independent continuity family rather than a part of G1.

*Cartoons (Japanese) - Includes the first three seasons of the American cartoons as well as three additional TV series, two OVAs and a [[manga]] series.
**Cartoons (American) - Three complete seasons of varying length, and a 3-episode "fourth season". Probably the best-known of all continuities. The American cartoons can roughly -- but but not without conflicts -- sit as a subset within the Japanese cartoons.

*Marvel UK comics - Includes the American comics as well as nearly 100% more material that was published exclusively in the UK until being reprinted internationally in the 2000s.
**Marvel US comics - Includes ''[[Generation 1 (comic)|Transformers]]'', ''[[Headmasters (comic)|Transformers: Headmasters]]'', and the character profile series ''[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)|Transformers Universe]]''. The comic book adaptation of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'' is out of continuity with the other Marvel comics. As with the US and Japanese cartoons, the US comics can be roughly seen as a subset of the UK comics.

*Dreamwave G1 comics - A new continuity with much of the flavor of the original cartoon series, but a very different history. Includes the three "G1" volumes as well as three volumes of ''The War Within'' and a ''Micromasters'' miniseries.

*IDW G1 comics - Begins with ''Transformers: Infiltration'', published in 2005 smd continues through most (though not all) of IDWs Transformer miniseries.

==Unified Japanese continuities==

In Japan, every Transformers cartoon until the release of ''[[Robots in Disguise|Car Robots]]'' (the original, Japanese title for ''Robots in Disguise'') can be somewhat easily fit into a single unified continuity, much like the unified American G1/Beast continuity. This includes the American G1 cartoon (minus Season 4, which Japan did not air) and Beast series as well as ''[[Headmasters (cartoon)|Headmasters]]'', ''[[Masterforce]]'', ''[[Victory (cartoon)|Victory]]'', ''[[Beast Wars II]]'', and ''[[Beast Wars Neo]]''. Despite this additional story material, they can all be fit together.

In Japan, then, ''Car Robots'' was the first full reboot. Following CR, ''[[Micron Legend]]'' and ''[[Superlink]]'' were connected into a third major Japanese continuity, and then -- as noted above -- ''Galaxy Force'' started a fourth.

In 2007, however, [[TakaraTomy]] posted on their website an [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/table.html official timeline] for their G1 universe. This timeline appears to perform some significant [[retcon]]s, claiming that ''Car Robots'' and the live-action movie both take place in the same G1 universe as all of the Japanese cartoons, ''[[Robot Masters]]'', ''[[BinalTech]]'', and ''[[Kiss Players]]''. A ''great deal'' of explication would be required to make this work even even in a rough, nails sticking out, not-safe-for-children kind of fashion (though the time travel and reality changing rampant in the last three series might simplify things a small amount). The same website also retcons ''Galaxy Force'' back into the same timeline as ''Micron Legend'' and ''Superlink'' (as it had always been presented in the west).

It is unknown how seriously these retcons are going to be taken by future Japanese fiction.

In addition to the above, nearly every Japanese TF franchise has had ancillary manga published in magazines such as ''Comics Bon-Bon''. The relationship between the manga and cartoons varied. For example, the manga associated with the first two years of ''Transformers'' (pre-movie) can easily fit into the cartoon continuity, but would not contribute much of substance to the timeline. Some of the later G1 manga, however, such as those associated with ''[[Masterforce (franchise)|Masterforce]]'' and ''[[Victory (franchise)|Victory]]'' contradict the cartoons bearing the same names.

==Continuity soup==
[[Image:Sparkholderprimevaldawn.jpg|right|thumb|225px|[[Optimus Prime|Optimus Prime (G1)]]'s spark isn't naked. It has decency.]]

With the labyrinth of branching and criss-crossing timelines, it can be difficult at times to say exactly what comprises the history of any given ''Transformers'' universe. Over and over through the history of the ''Transformers'' brand, stories have been written which both extend pre-existing stories and also "fill in" pre-existing stories, adding details and retcons big and small. These extensions may be written years or even decades after the stories they are descended from. There may be multiple extensions which conflict with each other, written at different times, by different people, for different markets. ''Branching'' timelines, on their own, are not that difficult to keep straight, but the relationship between various ''Transformers'' stories is much more complex than that because of the way new stories will pick-and-choose elements from old stories. There are no real answers to the questions that arise from this practice. It becomes a very messy question of subjective tastes and opinions, leading to the idea of a [[personal canon]].

Consider the [[Beast Wars (cartoon)|''Beast Wars'' television series]]: It borrows elements from the American G1 cartoon and G1 comics. The past history of the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon's timeline is a mishmash, something that probably resembles the G1 cartoon more than anything else, but which differs from the cartoon in unknown ways and may include more (or less) of what we see in the Marvel Comics. BW is set in a G1 universe for which we have never seen -- and probably will never see -- more than tiny glimpses of the "G1 part". The history of that universe ''is not known'', even though we presumably know its broad outline.

So, what significance does information from ''Beast Wars'', such as the idea of the [[spark]], hold for those older stories? Since being introduced in "[[The Spark]]", sparks have become one of the most important and unifying concepts in all ''Transformers'' fiction, yet fiction which predates ''Beast Wars'', of course, never mentions them. G1-era fiction which was written post-''Beast Wars'' almost always includes them. Retconning sparks into most vintage G1 fiction is not all that difficult, but should it be done? Obviously the G1-esque universe in which the Beast series are set has sparks, but what about the ''actual'' G1 cartoon and comic universes? Do they have sparks? Does the G1 cartoon's future (and past) look like ''Beast Wars'' or like something else?

What if a new story instead claimed that its past was ''exactly'' like an old story rather than merely similar to it? The main storyline of the ''Universe'' and ''Wreckers'' comics is ostensibly set in the BW/BM cartoon continuity, happening alongside and immediately afterwards. Are revelations from ''Universe'' "true" in ''Beast Machines'', or is ''Universe'' actually set in a timeline which is identical to the BM timeline aside from those extra events occurring? Does your answer change when [[IDW Publishing]] releases a [[The Gathering|''Beast Wars'' comic]] which ''also'' claims to occur alongside the BW cartoon, but which cannot be reconciled with ''Universe''? What do you do with something like the [[Hasbro Transformers Collectors' Club (comic)|''Classics'' comics]] published in the official fan club newsletter? Those stories are set in the future of the US G1 comic. Except... that they ignore the UK G1 comic ''and'' the US G2 comic. According to G2, there is an [[Cybertronian Empire|offshoot race of Decepticons]] running around in space who have been away from Cybertron for millions of years. Is that still true in ''other'' offshoots of the G1 comic? Is [[Jhiaxus (G2)|Jhiaxus]] out there in ''Classics''-comics space somewhere, and simply not visiting, or does he not exist at all? He ''could'' exist... but there is no way to know.

The only objective way to deal with all of this would be to take a very strict viewpoint on every story and never assume that anything is "true" unless it is explicitly stated in that story. Taken to an extreme, though, this stance can make it impossible to declare ''any'' two stories to share continuity, even two sequential episodes of a given TV series. For all we know, the new episode is set in a universe closely parallel to that of the previous episode but a little different. We wouldn't want to ''assume'' that a scene which wasn't shown in the recap actually occurred, after all. Especially if there's a continuity glitch of some sort, like the dialog in a recap being slightly different than the dialog from the earlier episode. So an absolutist "only what they showed" viewpoint can't really work. There has to be ''some'' concession; even "I'm going to treat all the episodes of this series as if they are one big story" is a subjective decision, one which another fan may find too restrictive or too liberal.

[[Category:Stories]]
[[Category:Continuities| ]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Moon (BW)

2007-07-21T16:09:49Z

Ronimus Prime: /* Trivia */ Made the caption funnier.

{{disambig2|the transforming bunny from Beast Wars II|the Earth's natural orbiting satellite|Moon (moon)}}

:''Moon is a transforming bunny from the [[Beast Wars II]] portion of the [[Generation 1]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:MoonBWII1.jpg|right|250px|thumb|"You crack me up, little buddy!" "Whatever."]]

'''Moon''' is a relic from the past of the planet [[Gaia]] (future [[Earth]]). While a transforming bunny rabbit, he is not of [[Cybertron|Cybertronian]] origin. He is stationed on the moon orbiting the planet along with his partner, [[Artemis]]. Together, they watch the battle unfold between the [[Maximal|Maximals]] and the [[Predacon|Predacons]], gathering data in secret. He also ends every sentence with the word "moon".

Moon's special ability is the power to become invisible. He's also remarkably good at saying things that upset Artemis. He's ''not'' so good at avoiding the giant red mallet Artemis swings at his skull when she's upset, however.

==Fiction==
===Animated continuity===
====Beast Wars II cartoon====
'''Voice actor:''' ''[[Junko Takeuchi]] (Japan)''

Moon, along with Artemis, watched over the Beast Wars on planet Gaia, gathering information on the events and organizing the data. At first they made a stern effort not to interact with the Transformers on Gaia, until [[Galvatron (BWII)|Galvatron]] summoned the battleship [[Nemesis (BWII)|Nemesis]], which threatened the entire planet.

Choosing to side with the Maximals, Moon and Artemis aided the good guys in reaching the Nemesis from Gaia and were instrumental in the final battle.

====Beast Wars Neo cartoon====
After [[Unicron]]'s defeat at the hands of [[Big Convoy]], and the formation of an alliance between the Maximals and Predacons, Artemis and Moon somehow travelled to [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]].

[[Image:ArtemisMoonTeaParty01.jpg|thumb|250px|Did you find Lookee in this episode?]]

As Big Convoy and [[Magmatron]]'s forces had one last brawl for old times' sake behind them, the Gaia androids participated in a giant cross-faction party under beautiful cherry blossoms. They shared a drink (tea? sake? oil?) with [[Bazooka (BWII)|Bazooka]], [[Crazybolt]] and [[Sharp Edge]], while [[Apache]] and [[Cohrada]] slept peacefully nearby (possibly drunk).

==Toys==
===Beast Wars II===
* '''Moon''' (Basic, 1998)
: ''Japanese ID number:'' '''S-2'''

: Moon transforms into a yellow rabbitty-thing. Its robot-mode chest has a "Viewmaster"-like gimmick, showing art of various ''Beast Wars II'' characters when you look through it. The pictures can be switched by pressing its upper and lower body together until it clicks.

*'''Moon''' (Basic, 1998)

: A white version of Moon was made available through a mail-away offer. (Which magazine offered the item is currently unknown.) Only 2000 pieces were made.

==Trivia==
[[Image:Moon-symbol.jpg|left|75px|thumb|Bunny Points!]]

[[Image:Concept-Moon.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Metal munching moon mice?]]

* With Artemis, Moon appears as a secret character in the Japanese Gameboy Color cross-series [[Duel Fight Transformers Beast Wars: Beast Warriors' Strongest Decisive Battle|Beast Wars fighting game]].

* Moon's packaging features a unique [[Robot Points|Beast Points]] symbol that was seemingly used nowhere else.

* A pocket-sized Japanese guide book to ''Beast Wars II'' contains an early concept drawing of Moon. It shows that at one time a bizarre-looking, vaguely lemur-like creature with huge ears and a pierced tail was considered.

[[Category: Beast Wars II characters]]
[[Category: Japan-only characters]]
[[Category: Mail order exclusives]]<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

Talk:Fandom

2007-07-18T03:51:29Z

Ronimus Prime:

That IP address was me. I figured since you have this entry just ''dripping'' with snark including "Bayformers", it should include the inexplicable fan belief that early G1 had more realistic representations of extraterrestrial robots, even though the toy engineers made them to look like the human-built piloted mecha they were in their original toy lines. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 18:30, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

:Oooh. Your edit didn't say anything about extraterrestrials, so, I totally didn't know where you were going. I personally prefer the line more brief, without bringing that part in, but, I don't feel real strongly about it. If you put it back in I might edit the phrasing to make it more to my liking, though. :) --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 19:07, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I ''know'' that someone from Hasbro (Whatshername, the exec who used to work for Power Rangers?) mentioned at some point that they estimate that X% of Transformers toys are bought by adult collectors- and I ''think'' it was 20. That should probably be in here.

I admit, I find the tone of this article unnecessarily harsh. I'd like to see it either moderated, or to have [[Fans]] and [[Fandom]] made two separate articles, with most of the negative aspects assigned to fandom. (Which I think is a fair division of blame- you still hear stories of hardcore transfans who run into the occasional hardcore solo-fan who has no clue about the 'net, conventions etc. The ''really'' nasty negative aspects of fans are almost all ''group behaviors'' that feed on themselves and doesn't exist in individuals if a fan is removed from fandom.)

...oh my god, I just articulated a [[Wikipedia:Romanticism|romantacist]] belief in the fundamental goodness of humanity and the corrupting influence of society on individuals. '''KILL ME NOW! DO IT BEFORE I SPREAD PEACE AND LOVE ALL OVER THE WIKI!''' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 20:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

::::Was that Michelle Fields? --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:44, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

::I also greatly dislike the tone of this article. It gives the impression that we here at this Wiki somehow stand separate and apart from the "fandom" which it sarcastically ridicules. Were it up to me, everything on this page but the short History section would be removed. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 02:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

:I find this article totally hilarious and that it contains quite a lot of truths. {{unsigned|210.49.121.202}}

I'm okay with the link. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:36, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I admit to being a little surprised at the negative reactions, as this is all stuff that's already written in various places on this wiki. Still, I recognize that if my only supporter is an anonymous string of numbers, I apparently just have a weird opinion on it. I just talked to Walky about it and he said the sarcastic "accomplishments"list could maybe be preserved if it were just a small part of a large, otherwise focusing-on-the-positive article. That sounds okay to me... I'd kind of like to keep at least ''some'' of the list in there, but, again, I seemingly have no perception of how vicious what I wrote is, so maybe it should be totally scrapped. For now I'll call shenanigans on myself while we decide what to do. --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 03:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:Keep it. I read some seriously ridiculous crap in the past week that makes this page DESERVE existence. Oh yeah, and it needs a mention of terrible fanfiction in there, since nothing is free from terrible fanfiction.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] 05:35, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
:: This article is just full of win. Reading it totally made my day. I say keep it. [[User:Detour|Detour]] 06:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

:I don't have a problem witht he negativity of the article per-se... it just seems kinda ''down'' on fans unless there's some contrasting material to balance it out. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:51, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

::Pretty much all of the snark and negativity on display in the current version is depressingly close to the truth, but I for one would certainly like to see it balanced out with stuff about the more positive aspects of TF fandom. --[[User:TVsGrady|TVsGrady]] 00:17, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

::It currently bears an uncanny resemblence to Encyclopedia Dramatica. -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 08:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

It has been my observation that other fandoms, particularly the GI Joe fandom (probably owing to TF's close relationship with Joe), think TF fans are absolutely fucking insane. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I am in favor of the article staying in its present state, as a reminder against such foolish behavior. It made my day reading the Fandom section, and under the management's rule that "THE FUNNY STAYS.", it should be here. [[User:Ronimus Prime|Ronimus Prime]] 03:51, 18 July 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>

User:Ronimus Prime

2007-07-18T02:52:12Z

Ronimus Prime: New page: Hi, I'm Ronimus Prime, not to be confused with that dude who led the Autobots post movie. I'm a new Transfan, but more a fan of the toons and comics than the toys.

Hi, I'm Ronimus Prime, not to be confused with [[Rodimus Prime|that dude who led the Autobots post movie.]] I'm a new Transfan, but more a fan of the toons and comics than the toys.<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>