MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Diaclone

2024-12-18T14:51:48Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Notes */ new section

So, how much of the Diaclone line was actually used for Transformers? Was it all of it? Only some it? --[[User:Gouki|Gouki]] 11:31, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

:Almost the entirety of the 1982, '83, and '84 molds were turned into Transformers. Specifically, starting with d37 (Countach Super Tuning) through d96 (Triple Changer jet/tank) along with w(aruder, the villains)7 through w10 (which became the Insecticons). Oddly, the last toy released for each faction, the helicopter/jet Triple Changer and Machine Dragon respectively, never became Transformers. Also left out were d63 through d65, the three Change Attackers. These were presumably shunned because they transformed from real civilian vehicles to combat vehicles instead of robots (ala the slightly later Kenner MASK), which would have gone against the ban on drivers in Transformers. You can see all the toys from their Super Robot beginnings in 1980 to the end here: http://diaclone.net/orid/list.html -[[User:Rotty|Rotty]] 17:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

::Ah, cool, thanks for that. So... since you know far more about it than I, should we actually put this sort of information in the actual page? --[[User:Gouki|Gouki]] 03:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

== About the catalogs. ==

I found some catalogs pics [http://1501bc.com/pretf/diaclone_catalogs.html here], it would be valid if I take some of those for the article? [[User:MESIAS ROCKET|MESIAS_ROCKET]] 22:12, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

== Toy listings ==

Should we have ALL Diaclone toys or only those that were later made into TFs? Should the toy listings be linked to the appropriate TF? [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 11:50, 2 October 2009 (EDT)
: Added toys that became TFs. Still considering adding links to those TFs. Looking for more input on how best to handle that (differences in decos between Countach and Sunstreaker, etc).[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 17:14, 3 October 2009 (EDT)
::Yeah, I was thinking something like [User:Mazenoise/Diaclone|this]]. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 05:55, 4 October 2009 (EDT)
:::How about [User:Khajidha/sandbox/diaclone|this]]? I still need to add spacing and I haven't mentioned most later releases (Road Rage, Hauler, Artfire, etc.). I also haven't done anything with the other subgroups.[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:15, 4 October 2009 (EDT)
::::It's good, but I'd say it would be good to see which Diaclone toys became which Transformers at a quick glance, rather than having to put your cursor over the links. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 13:29, 4 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::Good point, I'll work on it some more later. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:42, 4 October 2009 (EDT)
::::::[User:Khajidha/sandbox/diaclone|Check it out now]]. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:57, 4 October 2009 (EDT)
:::::::I'll say, with a few little tweaks that's just about ready to be put into this real article. -[[User:Mazenoise|Mazenoise]] 13:49, 5 October 2009 (EDT)

== How much info is too much? ==
I cleaned up/fixed/added info on the pre-Jumpstarters and pre-Constructicons.
While writing up the Constructicon stuff, I realized that adding in which vehicles had grey roofs in version 2 and other smaller bits of info was maybe becoming too much, so I scaled it back to just listing the most obvious differences. I hope that's ok.[[User:RavenG|RavenG]] 02:14, 17 April 2012 (EDT)
:I think you made the right call. It isn't really necessary for this site (being a TF wiki) to go into the little details of the Diaclone decos. Just noting, for example, that the "Concrete Mixer" was mostly red as opposed to Mixmaster's green should be enough. A little more detail might be necessary to distinguish the orange Construction Vehicle Robos from the orange G2 Constructicons. Details that only serve to distinguish one Diaclone deco from another should be saved for a Diaclone-centric website. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:45, 17 April 2012 (EDT)

== A Prime Problem ==
For some reason I don't see Battle Convoy anywhere on the page, which I'd imagine significant since it's [[Optimus Prime (G1)|pretty legendary]]. I'm also unsure if it was one of the numbered figures or not or where to fit it in (most likely car robots) but I AM certain it's a diaclone figure (powered convoy's on this page making it all the more strange that OP isn't here) so if someone could get to that that'd be nice.--[[User:BlackStarscream|BlackStarscream]] 16:48, 3 May 2012 (EDT)
:Number 17 under "Car Robots" --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:53, 3 May 2012 (EDT)

=="Lilac" 4WD Wrecker Type?==
The page currently says that the Double Set includes a lilac 4WD Wrecker Type. I think "lilac" might be a mistake.

Lilac color: https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=599359342&q=lilac+color&tbm=isch

Double set: https://tfsource.com/blog/2011/10/11/diaclone-car-robots-part-2/

Double set: https://twitter.com/TFJoeBot1/status/1326217245383561217

I would call it blue, but wanted to check in before changing it.

[[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] ([[User talk:Crockalley|talk]]) 00:19, 18 January 2024 (EST)
:I've just cross-checked my copy of ''Diaclone World Guide'' ([https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%80%E3%82%A4%E3%82%A2%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%83%B3%E3%83%AF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AB%E3%83%89%E3%82%AC%E3%82%A4%E3%83%89-%E3%83%9B%E3%83%93%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A3%E3%83%91%E3%83%B3MOOK-804/dp/4798614874 this Takara guidebook]) and yeah it's blue. Go for it. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 01:56, 18 January 2024 (EST)

I originally entered "lilac" as the colour. At most, you might classify it as mauve. It's absolutely nothing like blue. The blue parts on Mirage and Optimus Prime are blue. The Diaclone Hilux is lilac.

== Notes ==

Soooo talks about the Space Transformers line, looked it up... the first page you see features a bootleg Gundam head in the bottom left... should we mention that a little bit? Cause Mobile Suit Gundam is mentioned a few times throughout in relation to transformers here. [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]])

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2023-09-21T13:37:16Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Gundam */

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== Site Logo revamp ==

Up until now, our rotating logo on the main page tends to have a batch of logos pointing to pages from the most recent franchises and series, plus a few from older franchises that we forgot or didn't bother to remove. I'd like to rework this system a bit to have a more even balance franchise-wise. I think we should have one character for every franchise that has had a cartoon or movie (including the JG1 shows), plus one from each of the major English-language comic runs (Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 at the bare minimum). This would be a good way to demonstrate the breadth of the franchise scope of the wiki, and help drive new readers towards legacy content. (Of course, we'd still have a few extra banners based on whatever is currently running for the "Hey, I know that guy!" factor. Would love to get some thoughts on this, and potentially character suggestions for each franchise. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:59, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:I think this is a great idea! Though, I'm unsure on which characters from each show would be good to use. Like, would we go most popular/memorable characters or just some really random left field obscurities like G1 Skids who appeared in only two episodes of ''The Transformers'', just to get some more eyes on character articles from franchises newer fans may not be fully aware of? Also, would Japanese-exclusive shows include ''Go!'', ''Q-Transformers'' and ''Robotmasters''? If so, maybe even an image from ''Portal'' (the Russian show) would be worthwhile too. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:47, 18 December 2021 (EST)
::Obscure/minor stuff risks just being the GO! Boxes again, and we already have those. For the big logo, best to go with majorish characters from majorish media. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 07:19, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:This sounds like a great idea. We could break it down like this:
G1 Seasons 1 and 2 - Optimus Prime,
TFTM/G1 Seasons 3 and 4 - Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime,
G1 Marvel - Ratchet,
Headmasters - Fort Max,
Masterforce - Minerva,
Victory - Star Saber,
Idk if we would do Zone or any of the Japanese G1 stories that came after,
Beast Wars - Megatron,
Beast Wars II - Lio Convoy,
Beast Wars Neo - Magmatron,
RID/Car Robots - Side Burn,
I've never read Dreamwave so I don't know a good character that represents it,
Unicron Trilogy - Hot Shot,
IDW could be broken into a few character reps because of how long it went on,
IDW Furman Era - IDW Bumblebee,
IDW Post Furman - IDW Galvatron,
IDW MTMTE/LL - Nautica,
IDW RID/OP - IDW Optimus Prime,
Animated - Bulkhead,
Movies - Bumblebee,
WFC Games - Bruticus,
Prime - Starscream,
RID15 - Strongarm,
Cyberverse - Windblade,
WFC Trilogy - G1 Megatron,
And then we can have a few slots open for characters from the latest shows/movies. This list would give new readers an idea on how big the franchise truly is and how diverse the characters are. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Certainly if anyone's gonna represent CR/RiD'01, it's gonna be Sky-Byte, the breakout star of the show, and not Side Burn, the Autobot womanizer. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:26, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Funilly enough I meant to put him there lol. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 20:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Dreamwave, I'd pick War Within Grimlock. Certainly Shockwave should be part of 2005 IDW since he's responsible for the whole sha-bang.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] ([[User talk:MistaTee|talk]]) 18:40, 5 January 2022 (EST)

== Splitting Cloud characters ==

So now we have some sorta adequate translations, I'm being increasingly convinced that merging them just on the basis of AVP was a mistake and that the Cloud characters should be split out for simplicity and ease of explanation. Notably, the central conceit is far more similar to TransTech than G1—and more different to G1 than Cyberverse, for instance. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:44, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I was against it then and I'm against it now. They're nothing like the TransTech; they are practically nigh identical to the G1 guys, there's a war going on in their universe, and the "central conceit" of them being multiversal guardians is more akin to Alternity than it is to TransTech, who for the majority of their fiction were at most passive observers. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I am declining to weigh in personally until I finish first pass translations but please at least pretend to look over the translated material before repeating the same arguments. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:19, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::I have looked over it. Nothing is convincing me that it's all that separate from G1 stuff. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 12:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::"War going on" describes most of Transformer fiction. What makes Cyberverse "not G1", but Cloud G1, other than convenience for us editors? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:02, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::: As far as I can tell, there is no basic divergence, aside from Grimlock's origins, from the Cloud characters to the G1 counterparts. I could point to a fair few examples on the side of Cyberverse that rank higher than that (Grimlock's presenations, the origins of the Quintessons and Sharkticons, Skywarp, Acid Storm, etc etc.) [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:23, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::We can be here all day debating over character minutiae, but the point is that Cyberverse ultimately doesn't diverge that much from G1 in its general premise as opposed to Cloud. G1 is bloated enough as it is; it doesn't hurt to take out the one thing that doesn't really fit in and make it its own thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::: Well that just comes right back to my question: what actually makes Cloud World's core conceit any different from G1 beyond the fact that they have technology that allows them dimensional travel? Because if it is just that, I simply do not believe that is enough to justify a split for characters who are almost all made to look like and have the same personality as the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:51, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I agree for the sake of wiki presentation. *Cloud* is more like *TransTech* than it is like *Alternity*. *Cloud* characters got to travel to both the G1 and MD worlds as equally separate destinations. TakaraTomy used the *Generations War for Cybertron* moulds as the *United* series, which is G1 and not Aligned by our classification. *Cloud* recycling unused *Generations Fall of Cybertron* toys in a non-Aligned setting strikes me as more evidence that we can allow *Cloud* to live on its own rather than as another G1 setting. And *Cloud* was chosen by e-HOBBY over the competing proposal *Prime Shattered Glass* which would also have been on separate wiki pages despite employing purely redeco mould choiceis. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:08, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I'm not convinced by the idea that them saying "G1 World" is an indicator of separateness when there is also designations for "BW Spacetime" and "MF Spacetime." Brawn is depicted as practically identical in appearance to G1 Brawn before being upgraded. As for the Prime Shattered Glass choice, I think it's pretty obvious why that would be completely separate from this particular issue. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:25, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::The only reason Brawn is shown as the G1 body is if you take consideration that all Cloud members are drawn according to the latest toy or model available... he got no real toy before that, the only options were either G1 Sunbow, G1 toy or the tiny Universe 2.0 Legends. Now if you remove their appearance and focus on the story, Cloud is still more akin to Transtech than Alternity, Deadlock for example even got to visit the Legends World, a Aligned world (possibly the Adventure toyline) and the Ehobby spin-off dimension (now called Precursor World) -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 17:55, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::Yes, I am aware of how Cloud repurposings work. Nothing prevents one G1 universe from visiting another. And aside from that, Japan has had barely any non-JG1 cartoon related G1 fiction; of course Cloud World, which isn't directly JG1 related, would be indicated as different; that doesn't mean that it's not able to be categorized as G1. If it were an American storyline, where we have always had multiple G1 storylines, I feel that this would not nearly be as much of a point of contention. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I'm in favor of splitting Cloud from G1. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 19:32, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I haven't read any of the Cloud fiction myself, but I know that if our translation team collectively agrees on something based on the material available, then that's more than enough convincing for me to agree with them also. In other words, I agree with a split. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:52, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I'd vastly prefer if we could get someone like McFeely to weigh in on this. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:56, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::i'm in favour of the split. The cloud people have enough characteristics to distonguist them from theur jg1 counterpatts.--[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 20:14, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::Alright, seriously, what characteristics are there actually to distinguish them from G1? Because nobody has been able to give me a concrete example so far. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::::dinobot, heavy usage of aligned designs, hellwarp --[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 21:36, 28 December 2021 (EST)
Looks like Escargon is the only voice against the split thus far. Still, I suggest the discussion should remain open longer than usual, out of courtesy for people not checking the wiki as regularly given the holiday season. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:47, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:As the translations are still ongoing, I think the most we can suggest at this time is a note regarding its a classification as a Primax setting by AVP. As more information comes to light I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it was a decision made on shaky logic. Unlike the Alternity there doesn't seem to be any evidence of these guys being derived in-universe from G1 guys. And as fiction, it's about a bunch of super advanced parallel universe monitor guys who regularly travel to other universes. If it's literally just "the cast is mostly recolours of toys with G1 fiction" then maybe we need to start talking about listing the War for Cybertron games as G1 too. [[User:Star Spangled Sam|Star Spangled Sam]] ([[User talk:Star Spangled Sam|talk]]) 01:44, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::What exactly is super-advanced about them beyond SARA, who, as far as I can tell, is a gift from some being and not even their own creation? Because otherwise, they seem to be basic Transformers. Not a single person has been able to tell me that so far, and I'd be far more willing to listen if someone would just spell out what exactly makes them so distinct that means they can't be G1. It's not about in-universe stuff, because for all intents and purposes, the characters themselves are nigh-identical to the Generation 1 characters; you look at Cloud Megatron or Cloud Rodimus and it is obvious that, irregardless of whatever the fiction might say, they are being sold as new versions of the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 04:29, 29 December 2021 (EST)
:::By the same logic, then why not put the FOC and WFC games under the G1 banner since it heavly takes inspirations from it, same settings (war on cybertron, the resources are becoming low, escaping to another world), closest designs to G1.. hell they were more marketed towards G1 than the Movies and Prime in mind (let's face it.. that's what Hasbro always does).. but the further Hasbro tied them to Aligned and they became their own thing.. Cloud is about that, maybe marketed as G1 at first but they became their own thing at the end -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 13:20, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::::The WFC games are their own case that, despite what you say, were always clearly a part of Hasbro's ideas for the Aligned continuity, which is something that I'm not going to bother going into here. Nothing about Cloud registers to me as being somehow so separate that it requires us splitting off things into their own pages. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:24, 29 December 2021 (EST)
Bumping for more opinions. If there's no overall opposition to it by Friday or so, I'll start splitting. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:07, 4 January 2022 (EST)
:The Cloud fiction prominently features the Cloud characters interacting with their own G1 counterparts. If nothing else, it should be split on same basis as [[Galvatron II]]. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:50, 4 January 2022 (EST)
::We've seen that with other fiction. I'm not sure why it would justify them having their whole separate pages (Galvatron II is a unique case). If that's what it takes though to not go through some inane total split, though, then fine, whatever. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:If there is to be movement on this in the immediate future I suppose I should go ahead and weigh in. As the one doing the translation I broadly agree with Riptide. While I am unmoved by philosophical discussions on what constitutes "G1-ness" or "Transtech-ness," I believe it is important to return to our guiding principle of the end user experience. Given the already convoluted nature of the material as well as the cast's consistent interaction with both various Generation 1 continuities in general and their own incarnations in specific, I believe it will be in the best interests of intelligibility for the reader to split out Cloud from Generation 1. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:25, 5 January 2022 (EST)

We are not going to pretend that these are completely separate from the Generation 1 characters. Put up a suite or a "see [X] article for more information" because it is completely ridiculous to pretend that Cloud is it's own little continuity. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:38, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I disagree. Cloud should be split off entirely. So let's have an official vote and resolve this. I say '''Split'''. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:28, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::The articles have already been split. You'll forgive me if I don't show confidence in the decision from people who blew me off when I pointed out their original reason for splitting was incorrect (that supposedly the Almanac had come out before Cloud was truly explained, but in fact it had come after almost all of it had been published). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:35, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::This discussion has been open for twelve days. An unofficial tally shows at least 7-to-1 in favor of splitting. No one else has openly agreed with your position. Given that, and that Saix announced days in advance he would start splitting if there was no further discussion, it wasn't unreasonable for him to begin. But maybe there's a different split of opinions on the Discord or wherever, so it's certainly appropriate to ask for an official vote. Beyond that...the decision is just not up to you alone. The point of democracy is for all voices to be heard, not to leave every voice feeling satisfied with the outcome. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:08, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::I have no idea what's going on in the Discord server; I'm barred from it. I certainly hope there's not more discussion going on over there, because I was told that there would be a push to have these sorts of big discussions to be on the wiki. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:42, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::With all due respect: You need to stop putting so much emphasis on the in-universe designation, which AVP itself pointed out was ultimately arbitrary. I understand that AVP and the Almanacs are important to you, but Jim is not infallible, and while I'm sure he had good reasons for calling it "Primax" that's ultimately just ''his opinion''. Cloud being "its own thing" isn't some essential property; it's a matter of how to organise the wiki in order to make the fiction clear. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I also vote '''Split''' if only because of how better translations now has pointed out various past errors/assumptions/presumptions that needed correcting, and thus updating is needed so as to make things easier to categorize and organize here. Any wiki really worth their salt and wanting to do proper service to their respective franchises' fandoms would do the same. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 14:43, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::I ''still'' haven't got an answer for what makes Cloud so different that makes it ''need'' to be split. If there were a crossover between say, Marvel and Sunbow, nobody in their right mind we should completely separate, say, Huffer from Huffer. I'm willing to admit that I might just be missing something, but nothing in the stories themselves, as far as I can see, suggests it, beyond the aforementioned Cloud World classification, which for me is not enough of a justification. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:33, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::Neither Marvel nor Sunbow consists primarily of crossovers with another G1 continuity. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:20, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::If that's the main avenue of justification then frankly I don't think I'm ever going to agree with that line of reasoning, but I can clearly see I'm outvoted on this. I wish there would have been more people asked before the split was done, though, because I can see that this could very easily end up being another whole "retitling things to FSRLF" situation. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:00, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::We functionally split out Marvel and Sunbow versions for a lot of characters anyway. We're at the point where we draw lines based on how easy/hard it is for the information to be conveyed, not whether it's G1 enough or not. We think Cloud, as its own fullblown storyline/premise, falls on the side of "it's easier to read and parse it if they get their own shebang" instead of burying them in overlong G1 articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:11, 8 January 2022 (EST)

I'm not gonna argue further on this because I recognize it's a losing battle, but I think that the line of thought of "this one bit of media shouldn't be kept in an article because it won't get out there otherwise" sets a bad precedent that could easily be misused in the future. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:39, 8 January 2022 (EST)

Should the Cloud toys also be removed from the G1 character's pages? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 09:21, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:Yeah no, It vould be too convoluted, example look at the redirections [[Transformers_Cloud#Toys|there]]... where should each toy be redirected?? + the fiction regarding said toys has their own page now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 10:58, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::...What on earth are you talking about? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:16, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::Srry I misread his question.. I thought he meant "added" not "removed" from the G1 pages...
:Not entirely certain what you're asking, but the eight toys in the Cloud toyline (plus Deadlock) have already been moved to the Cloud pages in conjunction with the fiction, as they solely represent Cloud characters. The remaining Cloud characters repurpose existing toys. The writeups for those toys remain on the original pages with duplicates on the repurpose pages, as is standard practice. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:54, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::I mean, for example, [[Blaster_(G1)/toys#Generations|G1 Blaster's toy page]] has FOC Blaster on it, due to FOC Blaster being repurposed as Cloud Blaster. Should that repurposing be removed from G1 Blaster's page, since Cloud Blaster isn't considered to be G1 Blaster anymore? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:34, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::I believe yeah, the splitting between G1 and Cloud was recent (done last month) so there's still leftover traces on the wiki, if you can take your time to remove them why not -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 16:44, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::::Ok, good. I just wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 17:13, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::::Oh! Yes those should go, good eye! -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 10:52, 18 February 2022 (EST)

==Split Movie Character Toy lists?==
Just as what happened with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Megatron (G1)/toys]], I suggest we split certain Movie toy pages such as [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys]] as both pages have become excessively bloated. I suggest we separate them by having the original Bay film toylines (07, ROFT, DOTM, AOE, TLK, and any pre SS sub lines) have their own page and starting a new one that Contains SS, BB, and the upcoming ROTB toylines, alongside any future movie toylines until the new page itself becomes heavily bloated [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Sorry for being this late but given that ROTB toys are apparently coming this spring, I suggest you split like one part contains all 5 movies while the other starts with SS and BB until now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 15:26, 22 January 2022 (EST)

== Multi-part comic stories ==

For old Marvel UK multi-part stories like [[Target: 2006]] or [[Time Wars]], we put the whole thing under a single article, but for modern-day ones like each storyline in [[Transformers (2019 comic)]] we have a separate article for each issue. Is there a good reason for the discrepancy, or are the old ones just an artefact of a time in the wiki's history that didn't follow our current standards? --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 09:36, 22 January 2022 (EST)
:The thing with that is that it's a result of how the UK comic was written; there'd be about 8 or so pages per issue, meaning that we'd have a lot of little articles that are easier just grouped together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:16, 22 January 2022 (EST)
::Makes sense, although that's essentially what we have for [[The Transformers: Autocracy]] et al., which are also 8 pages per issue. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 15:38, 23 January 2022 (EST)
:::The difference with Autocracy lies mostly in that pretty much all of those issues have a beginning and end, and also have different titles. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:47, 23 January 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I always thought our headings on the Marvel UK story pages ''were'' the issue titles. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 01:21, 24 January 2022 (EST)

== Composite characters and page transclusion ==

This is something I've had the idea about for a while, but I've finally had a look at how the markup for it works and have come up with a proposal. The pages for [[Greatshot]] and [[Sixshot (G1)]] contain an entirely duplicated section set around the ''Victory'' cartoon owing to a retcon that occurred in the much later Legends manga. This is not an ideal solution because, among other reasons, any edits to Greatshot's cartoon section necessitates making the same edit to Sixshot's section.

Over in my sandbox, I've whipped up the page [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test]], containing only the events that happened to both Greatshot and the retconned Sixshot. By inserting <nowiki>{{:User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test}}</nowiki> into the relevant parts of Greatshot and Sixshot's pages (also sandboxed [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot|here]] and [[User:TheLastGherkin/Sixshot|here]]), the same information is automatically transcluded. And clicking "Edit" on, for example, the Legends manga section on Sixshot's page automatically redirects the user to editing that portion of Greatshot-test, thus updating all three pages at once.

If we go forward with this, I can see it being used for other characters in similar situations, like BWU [[Wolfang (Maximal)#Beast Wars: Uprising|Wolfang]], or Unite Warriors [[Roller (IDW)#Unite Warriors|Roller]], or putting the lion's share (pun intended) of [[Victory Leo]]'s fictional appearances back onto Victory Leo's page. With refinements, like say a <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> explanation for what each subpage is for the layperson ("This page covers the events of the Japanese Generation 1 continuity, where Greatshot and Sixshot are the same individual...") and maybe a [[:Category:Transcluded pages]], I could see this really working, and it could probably be bent into shape for repurposed toys as well. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 12:48, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:If we cannot avoid this sort of duplicated information entirely, this does seem like a pretty ideal solve to mitigate the constant peril of copy editing flubs maintaining multiple copies of one write-up entails. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:56, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Is there any way to get rid of the "This section is transcluded from another page. To edit it, please edit the transcluded page." notice? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:::There is! I just put that there manually while experimenting and also to make clear where the transcluded section is. In practice, since clicking "Edit" on a transcluded section takes you to the source page, a notice like that can be relegated to a commented-out note for editors who click to Edit the entire page (or a larger section). [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 16:16, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I thought it was automatic software stuff. Whoops, never mind. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:22, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Also, this works for fiction, but I see it running into issues when it comes to toys. (Thinking of Sixshot/Greatshot, Sixshot always gets toys first with Greatshot as the retool later in the same line.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:14, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:I've made some tweaks to my sandboxes, including standardising the transcluded page. Are there any objections before I start implementing this (in fiction sections)? [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 07:10, 12 February 2022 (EST)
::I sense that there could be an issue in the future where, for whatever reason, these sorts of characters diverge back into separate ones, whether it be through alternate continuities or whatever. Also, in the case of Greatshot, I feel like at the very beginning of his entry, there has to be something different to set up the Sixshot retcon, and just having the same opening text doesn't do that. 08:57, 12 February 2022 (EST)
:::His toy bio that mentions Sixshot as a separate person could go there. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:21, 16 February 2022 (EST)
:This could also be applied to Primus and Vector Sigma for their 3H comics sections since they are one and the same in that continuity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 26 February 2022 (EST)

== What makes a franchise? Or, does "Precursor World" exist? ==

So, browsing around the wiki, as one does, and came across this: [[Precursor World continuity|Precursor World (franchise)]]

Now, I'm not as well-versed in the Legends + Selects comics, so maybe this is incorrect, but to the best of my understanding, the branding "Precursor World" doesn't exist — this story was told across Generations Selects and Legends, and no toy or story was ever released branded as "Precursor World". It doesn't seem like the name even existed until pretty recently.

This...isn't a franchise, right? It's a long-running story told across various medium, but it's not a franchise, and calling it such implies something that isn't true.

Particularly, the idea that there is a "toyline" seems a bit of a stretch. There are only three listed "official" toys, but none of them were released under the "Precursor World" branding (which near as I can tell does not exist) and the list of "repurposings" seems almost entirely just "this toy/characters showed up in this story" which doesn't seem like anything's been repurposed to me. The IDW comics used a bunch of existing/prior toys, but that doesn't create a toyline of that comic series.

Am I off base here? --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:16, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:Okay there's a lot to unpack here but to begin with every single one of those toys is being repurposed as a separate object/character in a separate setting a la, for example, [[Green Tender Convoy]] and the [[Matrix Buster|Red Matrix]]. Most of the unnamed crowdfillers are minimized to footnotes on existing articles to avoid generating a bazillion stubs. The closest analogue I can give you is the [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|toyline]] for the original ''Timelines'' iteration of Shattered Glass. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:35, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I'll grant that those indeed seem to be repurposings, but the vast majority of toys on this list merely link to the toy entry for the toy on the regular character's page. I don't think having a list of members of these groups is bad (it's good!) but I don't think this is a toyline. Again, crucially, Shattered Glass has a brand, with the official toys released under that brand, whereas precursor world does not. IDW repurposed WfC/FoC/aligned toys as G1 characters, but this didn't create a virtual toyline associated with that comic. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:46, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:::Arguably Shattered Glass toys weren't really released under their own brand either until the recent Hasbro Pulse stuff, until then the figures were all just released under the ''Timelines'' banner or whatever else Fun Pub used at the time - the idea of a singular "Shattered Glass toyline" was just as much of a constructed idea until like a year ago. I can't say "franchise" and "toyline" ''aren't'' slightly more non-literal labels than usual in this context, but I do think there's value in having the info collated like this, and I can't think of ''better'' labels that aren't something stupid like "(meta franchise)". [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:57, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::::To be honest, I'm inclined to agree re: Shattered Glass, and would not be opposed to restructuring the toyline page to delineate between the "Shatted Glass Collection" and "Shattered Glass toys released via Timelines" or something. Shattered Glass does, however, have a leg up on Precursor World given that every official SG toy was branded as "Shattered Glass" in some way, though perhaps not as a "franchise". The box set is called Shattered Glass, and every official toy was called "Shattered Glass". There's some nuance there, of course, as arguably those are part of the character's names ala "Prime Universe Bulkhead" is still a Legacy toy, not a Prime toy, but I'd be happy to have a debate around the best way to frame Shattered Glass stuff given those discrepancies. Allll that said, Shattered Glass is today a franchise, but there have been zero anythings released with Precursor World branding or labeling. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 13:06, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I don't think the page should be removed or even severely modified, but I do think the terminology is flawed. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 16:02, 3 March 2022 (EST)
Precursor World is definitely not a "franchise" and should not have that label. The model to look at here is the [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] article, which gives an overview of the thing, lists it's stories and toys, but does not use the "franchise" label, and doesn't ''need'' to use it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 15:07, 3 March 2022 (EST)

Yeah, no, this is not a "franchise", and the page should not be labeled as such. It is a ''setting''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:I like the solution that AzimuthAcolyte gave on Discord: move "Precursor World (franchise)" to "Precursor World continuity" (with all uses of the word "franchise" changed to "continuity") and "Precursor World (toyline)" to "List of Precursor World toys". Simple and elegant. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:55, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Seconded.[[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:::That seems reasonable to me. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::::I'm for that. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::That's fair. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:59, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Works for me, somewhat obviously! If there are no major objections over the next day or two I'll get those moved over. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:48, 4 March 2022 (EST)
::Ohhh, That works -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 18:19, 4 March 2022 (EST)
Alrighty as it's been a day or so with no objections I am proceeding with the moves away from (franchise) and (toyline). --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:06, 5 March 2022 (EST)

== Episode Order ==
It's come to my attention that all cartoons have been listed in production order '''except''' Beast Wars, RID01, RB, and RBA. While I understand production order is not available for the latter two I suggest we change the first two for consistency's sake - Unless I'm wrong and they are ''not'' all in production order. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:48, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:We're not touching Beast Wars. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
::Beast Wars and RiD'01 not being in production order are accepted exceptions to the norm. We leave them as they are for reasons specific to each. But as for RB and RBA, we do have an idea of the production orders for each, but we instead use a weird mixture of production order and airing order that is consistent with no other series we cover. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 13:53, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:OK quick correction to myself, turns out that it's all supposed to be chronological order; That just happens to be production order for everything but those four. Sorry! [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 14:09, 16 March 2022 (EDT)

==Help with statues / figurines==
I wrote up many of the [[Super7#Transformers ULTIMATES!|ULTIMATES!]] entries, simply because no one else had. I don't actually care about that sort of merch and it ended up being me paraphrasing from press releases and copying their pics. Just today I learned there are 3 waves of TF [[Minimates]] that have no coverage here at all. It definitely seems like a lot of high-end statues are falling through the cracks as well. Is there someone who is willing to make that stuff more of a project? If not, could we perhaps put out a call for submissions on our Twitter feed? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:47, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I fear this is just... going to continue to be an Issue. The wiki is a labor of love, and the brand is at a point where there's a lot of stuff out there... well, that a lot of people probably aren't gonna love. Hasbro's moichandized the everloving HELL out of TF over the years, with more and more niche "G1" stuff that seemingly would never appeal to people for whom G1 is the big center of their fandom. I mean I just found some Micro Figures merch at a Big Lots, I've never seen these before, and I don't know offhand if they're on the wiki. They're kind of a nothing. It's hard to keep up. Same for stuff like phone games.<br>
:I don't know if there's an actual solution. ''Someone'' certainly needs to step up, but I kinda got my plate overflowing with my own pet (ha ha) niche chunk of TF history to exhaustively document, never mind dealing with stuff I am almost aggressively disinterested in. (Seriously what little Minimates experience I have left me with a worse impression of them than I already had from their hideous aesthetic alone.) Asking Twitter for people more well-versed in this stuff might could help for phone games, but... IS there anyone into Minimates as a whole Brand and not just in a "I get the licenses I like" sense to fill in gaps? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:20, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::Once I had composed the thought "Hey, it's bad that there are a lot of Minimates out with us not covering them at all," it was too late, and I just had to burn 40 minutes on some cut-and-paste writups for the entire series. That's one "solution," I guess, but even ''my'' obsessive-compulsiveness can only go so far. Editing this site really should not feel like a job... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:18, 22 March 2022 (EDT)

==Implementing galleries==
I propose making galleries on character pages a wiki standard. The current mainpic + show screenshots format doesn't cover images like character models (Unless used as a mainpic), concept art, appearances in posters or toy murals, comic book covers, etc.
Other wikis have successfully implemented galleries, I think the Hololive Wiki galleries in particular work well as an example https://hololive.wiki/wiki/Tokino_Sora#Media.
This gallery header covers character models and has suites for concept art and even character uses in collaborative merch.[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:27, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Seconded. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:30, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I would say some version of this concept for a section has merit, if nothing else as a solve for major characters with several prominent character models, perhaps as a fairly unobtrusive method of documenting alt modes, etc etc. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:38, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::I'm for this. As a good example, the BotBots characters all look to have been radically redesigned for the show. By default the current standard is to keep the original stock art look will appear as the mainpic each page. Having a gallery option would be a good way to show both versions. [[User:ParadoxFactor|ParadoxFactor]] ([[User talk:ParadoxFactor|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Oppose. There is no reason for these to take up space on the character pages. Would not oppose separate "gallery" pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:57, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::If we are open to workshopping implementation I do agree a separate "gallery page" in the style we already use for more conceptual articles here and there would probably be cleaner. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 14:06, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I love the gallery idea. There's a question of how much to include, and the exact implementation details of how to portion out overflow if there's too many images. It's a shame there isn't some way to generate them automatically just by tagging images with the characters they depict. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::A separate page seems like it would be overkill for someone like [[Flamewar (G1)|Flamewar]], who would only take a few images to cover appearances not already covered by fiction section images. I assume if a small gallery was to be used on a character's page, it would be near the bottom at any rate? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:22, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Yes, at the bottom would be ideal, no different from any of the galleries on our artist pages. IMO, separate gallery pages should only be used in instances where the number of images can't be comfortably fit onto one or two lines. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:33, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::I agree with Cyberlink. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:29, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Fair; Using gallery sections for those with few images and gallery pages for those with many images might make sense. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 15:46, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::See [[Megatron (G1)/gallery|G1 Megatron]] and [[Megatron (BW)/gallery|BW Megatron]] for examples of characters with enough images to justify separate gallery pages. [[Rhinox (BW)/gallery|BW Rhinox]], as it is now, is probably right on the line between "split it off" and "stick it at the bottom of the page". -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
I think choosing between a header at the bottom or a suite depending on image amount is a good solution instead of sticking to just one method.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:29, 22 March 2022 (EDT)
:Yeah, I think that would be good, as has been pointed out earlier. I do have to ask - because sometimes the artistic difference between characters in comics is slight with details only a little different in shape or kibble - would those fall under gallery stuff? Because they're effectively different per artist interpretation. I would be inclined to say yes, because effectively a different artist's rendition is shown usually of the same character without having reformatted or taken up armor or so forth. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 10:56AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I am very much on board with this idea. Having a gallery section or page depending on the character would be great, especially for characters like Flamewar who have a extremely prominent new design that we can't use as a main pic and for characters who have tons of designs, especially in the case of IDW where some characters change bodies every Tuesday. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:35 AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I think artistic liberty vs. new design would have to be on a case by case basis. Burcham's art of the BW cast wouldn't count for gallery purposes, in my opinion. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:08, 27 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I think it would be cool to have art of the same designs in different artstyles, but I agree it should probably be on case by case basis. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 6:17 PM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I currently have a sandbox to test galleries using Tigatron https://tfwiki.net/wiki/User:MrRald/sandbox/Tigatron#Gallery. I'd appreciate any feedback on things to add or change! [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 23:44, 1 April 2022 (EDT)
::: I like what you have so far, I think we should maybe add a few more versions of Tigatron, like his different comic appearances and such. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]])

: Now that we're actually going ahead with this... I have to ask, what are the galleries actually ''for''? When we were discussing this I was under the impression that they were going to be for "behind-the-scenes" images that wouldn't otherwise have a place on the wiki, like out-of-universe character models, character concept art, or full-body renders from stuff like guidebooks. Right now, a lot of the galleries just feel redundant, given that they're just a bunch of cartoon and comic screengrabs taken from the relevant section and removed of all context... and a lot of them, like [[Blaster (G1)/gallery]] are just completely empty. The fact that every character ''can'' have a gallery does not mean that all of them ''should'', especially if most of them are just going to be redundant or mostly empty. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:57, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
::Agreed, I feel like this is bloating the wiki and toeing over the line of our vague remit. Despite having a LOT of images, we're not an image repository. Also, a lot of these could probably be done as a single subsection of the characters' mainpage under below "Notes" of whatever rather than as separate mostly-blank-space sub-pages full of sub-headers with like two images total in them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 06:11, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I didn't think they'd be separate pages. What I was expecting was whichever of the cartoon character model, Dreamwave profile art or package art weren't being used for the mainpic, plus behind-the-scenes stuff, plus maybe extra bits from artbooks, covers, or sources like that. Stuff that can't just be slotted into a fiction writeup—and I don't mean "comic crops we don't have room for because equivalent/better panels are already in the fiction section". —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:35, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
My intentions for the gallery pages were for users to actually do the work in uploading character models, renders, et al., not dumping whatever cartoon screencaps we already have in fiction sections. And separate pages would be on a case by case basis. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:46, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
I don't see the point, honestly. It seems like pretty much any significant body a significant enough character has will appear on the wiki at some point in a comic panel or a toy info image or a screenshot or something, somewhere. I'm not sure this is a problem that needs solving. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] ([[User talk:Hooper X|talk]]) 20:36, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

===G1 model images===
To branch off of this topic, how would we feel about using [https://www.allspark.com/forums/threads/the-most-accurately-coloured-g1-animation-models-online.301/ DM's coloured models] for the G1 cartoon model galleries? The last time I brought this topic up (on Discord), some people were against the idea, due to them being fan-colour works and not official, but a few newer developments have been made since I last brought it up.

To clarify, for those unaware of DM's works:

* All of the line art is original and unedited (unlike several of the models in ''The Ark'' books, which had been tweaked, altered and traced by Bill Forster to make them presentable for publishing).
* The models are the final ones used throughout the majority of the cartoon (in Toei-animated episodes at least). Note: several of the models in ''The Ark'' books we have also come to discover were unfinalized ones, due to the internet and more stuff being made public since what was originally found around 2007—not to discredit Jim and Bill's hard work in putting those books together, it's just some of what we knew then isn't entirely correct now.
* And finally, the colours (which was the big thing some people were against). Unlike the handful of fan-coloured models that were originally uploaded to the wiki in the past, which eye dropped colors straight from poor quality episode masters, DM's colours are based directly on Toei and Marvel Productions' model colour guides, colour codes, charts, colour chips found by a member of the ''Dragon Ball'' fandom (who has scanned and digitized said colour chips) and other original production materials, meaning that the colours DM has used are all coming from the ''original'' original source.

An alternative Mr. Rald had brought up on Discord is that we could possibly look at using the uncoloured model line art instead, if people feel strongly against using fan-coloured works, but I think in order to present the G1 character models fully as references, you kinda need the colours included, especially given how poor the cartoon production was, what with all the animation errors (even in Toei episodes) etc, making it hard to gather decent references for the characters, which is mostly what these galleries are for.

Also, for the record, DM has given us permission to use his colourings on the wiki.

Let me know you thoughts. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:39, 6 April 2022 (EDT)

: I personally think that we should use DM's coloured models, they are as official as coloured models are going to get, and it's not like DM just randomly picked and chose want colours to use as FOCS said. We could just have the model and the colour guide, but at that point, just have the model sheet coloured. I would however be in favour of the uncoloured models with colour guides and the sheets with the fully coloured models to cover all our bases. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:16 AM, 6 April 2022 (PDT)

== Making a page for the Unreal Engine? ==

War for Cybertron, Dark of the Moon (PS3/X360), Fall of Cybertron, and Rise of the Dark Spark all run on Unreal Engine, specifically Unreal Engine 3. Why isn't there a page for it. It could have good info on those wanting to mod those games.

Unrelated, but there's a server revival project being worked on for those games. Right now it's only on PC, and progress is slow, but should we include info for it in the pages for those games? It's not official btw, there's a Discord server for it and a few YouTube vids about it.[[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]]) 17:29, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not sure what information we could put on an Unreal Engine page that would be useful to modders. An Unreal Engine page would be general info on the engine and a list of games which use it. Diving into technical details isn't really something we do. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:52, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I think linking to {{W|Unreal Engine|Wikipedia}} should be sufficient. That's what I did when I ''unfortunately'' had to document the Funko NFTs. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:11, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I don't see what value there would be to this. Unreal warrants, at ''most'', a mention on the relevant game pages. We don't have pages for every program used to make every piece of TF media/product. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:33, 24 March 2022 (EDT)

== Category for characters with no established gender ==

So I just had this idea and decided to share it here because why not? We have categories for female characters and variable gender characters but not for characters with undetermined genders. Many BotBots for example don't have genders and I think this category could be a useful way of grouping them together. And who knows, maybe someday it could even help official creators specifically looking for genderless characters to establish a gender to them. Does anyone agree to implement this category? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:06, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:This concept has been discussed before in the past, and generally the feeling has been that this would be a bit too much like the wiki actively trying to shape canon. Don't get me wrong, creators taking advantage of characters with no official pronouns is neat and I'm all for it, but IMO the wiki shouldn't directly serve up them. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 19:26, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
::Interestingly, I can't seem to find a prior community portal discussion about this matter, though I know it has come up on the Discord server more than once, to the conclusion Jalaguy mentioned. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:35, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:::Just to clarify, I thought of "official creators using it" as a quick example in favor of the category, but now I can totally see how it sounded like trying to influence canon too much. Regardless, I'd still be down for having the category if we agreed on it being useful for any other reason. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:51, 3 April 2022 (EDT)

== Category for trans characters ==

We had a productive conversation about the no established gender thing on the wiki discord and it made me realize that there should be a transgender category for the five established trans characters that there are so far, Arcee (who has established trans characterization on two different pages), Howlback, Arcadis, Anode, and Lug. Jalaguy mentioned that this has been discussed and people thought it was a good idea but it hasn't happened, so I just thought I'd ask for go-ahead on this. I figured that transgender rather than just trans could be a good word to use for this, due to them all being people who have gender. The term trans is merely more broad and could cover different kinds of transness than that or aesthetic stuff that is similar to gender, but we have no confirmation of being there yet in canon. Thus I think transgender would be the most accurate and desirable term here, and the umbrella trans can always be tacked on later if we need to. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 5:40PM 3 April 2022 (PDT) (edited 5:48PM PDT for clarity)
:Seconded. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 5:53 PM, 3 April 2022 (PDT)
::Since there are no objections, I'll go ahead. :3 -- [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 4:19AM, 11 April 2022 (PDT)

==Streamlining disambig headers (revist)==
So I remember this conversation from last year about streamlining the disambiguation headers. I checked back on the talk page discussion (link to said discussion archive here https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive69#Streamlining_disambig_headers) to see what happened and even though there was a lot of people who liked the idea with some who did not, it did not seem like it went anywhere. I thought I'd see if anyone else would like to revisit this idea as I feel like this would streamline things more, especially for Movie and Aligned and maybe a bit of UT especially for the guys who show up in all 3 shows or those don't have other bots who are completely different sharing the same name within the trilogy. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 9:01 PM, 12 April 2022 (PDT)

== Disambig tags and suites for Masterforce paired pages ==

We need to balance out our page titles for ''Masterforce'' human + transtector character pairs. Right now we have among extant pages and tentative redlinks:

Bullhorn (G1), Cab (human), Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (human), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (robot), [something], Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (robot)

I propose either we do human gets no species tag with the robot getting a species tag as the splinter page:

Bullhorn (G1) | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

or the human does get a species tag to equally balance with the robot:

Bullhorn (G1)/human | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

This would eliminate the need to have any longer-within-parentheses tag like "Minerva (G1 robot)" which would be affected by future continuities which may not yet have happened. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:55, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
:I would prefer either the human gets the "default" continuity tag with no further disambiguation or (human)/(robot) (with needed variations for disambiguation). The slash system is ugly to me. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:59, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::I'm of the opinion that the slash option for both feels the most fair. While the human versions were the first and thus feel the most deserving of the "default" tag, the robot versions are likely to become more commonplace and relevant as newer fiction dips its toes into using more Japanese characters. On a similar note, it was decided not to give the "BW" tag to either BW Silverbolt out of fairness, so while a similar "human/robot" concept could be implemented, there is the problem with Minerva having an Animated counterpart who is also a robot, Cancer having an Animated counterpart who is also a human, there being a Kre-O Bullhorn who is also a robot, a G.I. Joe Lightfoot who is also a human, and an IDW Wilder who is also a human. "Minerva (Headmaster)" also doesn't work for the G1 robot since the human was a Headmaster too. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:29, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::The slash system may not be entirely visually pleasant, but I consider having "Minerva (G1 robot)" in parentheses worse. In my proposal, all transtector characters would be unified symmetrically as "(robot)". [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:47, 24 April 2022 (EDT)

Here are three proposals to unify the namespaces:

Possibility 1: humans get nothing and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1), Cab, Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai, Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (G1), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 2: both humans and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1)/human, Cab/human, Cancer (G1)/human, Clouder/human, Ginrai/human, Shūta Gō/human, Lightfoot (G1)/human, Minerva (G1)/human, Ranger/human, Road King/human, Wilder (G1)/human

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 3: both humans and robots get parentheses

Bullhorn (G1 human), Cab (human), Cancer (G1 human), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1 human), Minerva (G1 human), Ranger (human), Road King (human), Wilder (G1 human)

Bullhorn (G1 robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (G1 robot), Doubleclouder, Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1 robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (G1 robot)

Thoughts? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:12, 12 June 2022 (EDT)
:Isn't Option 1 one basically just a slightly different version of what we're already using and what you're proposing to change in the first place? Anyway, like I said above, Option 2 is the most fair between the human and robot depictions (as Option 1 feels like we're saying "The human versions are the more important versions" when it's the robot versions that are more likely to get any representation in future comic appearances), and it reduces the amount of multiple-word parentheses tags that we usually dislike using and try to avoid as best we can (which is the exact opposite of what Option 3 is proposing). Though, drop the "/human" from Clouder and Shūta Gō since their names already differ from "Doubleclouder" and "Goshooter". No need to complicate those two. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 08:45, 12 June 2022 (EDT)

==Transformers: Armada (Trading Card Collection)==
I recently discovered that Fleer published a Trading Card collection in 2003 for Transformers Armada.
I've documented everything I could find about it - including an Energon (preview) Scorponok card I got from a local retro game store.
[[Iacon0/Sandbox]]
Is it alright if I roll this out? [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 12:52, 1 May 2022 (EDT)

== WFC/FOC Reenergized Server Project info? ==

Info: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO5yzrWE9yVT56Rgxl9oqntVysxWr2k7e

Basically, it brings back the multiplayer servers for the Cybertron games, PC and PS3. Should this be talked about in the pages for those games? (ROTDS and ROTF aren't online at the moment, and 360 versions won't have support) [[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]])}
:It's not official, so no, it shouldn't. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:54, 27 June 2022 (EDT)

== Handling of "former GoBots" and "former Diaclone" characters on the wiki ==

So recently we've been seeing multiple characters that had previously been portrayed as dimension-hoppers from non-Transformers realities, but using Transformers designs — [[Bug Bite (GoBots)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]] and [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]] — appearing as "normal" Transformers ([[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]]). There's some heavy dispute over whether we should put them on the same page or split them out (e.g. "since the GoBots Bug Bite isn't ''originally'' from a G1 universe, he shouldn't go on the G1 Bug Bite page), so I thought we should probably have a centralised place to put together a comprehensive set of standards.

My take, personally, is that GoBots and Diaclone are *not* continuity families, they're their own properties that happen to cross over with Transformers, and so shouldn't be split on that basis. I feel that Burn Out and Lift-Ticket, regardless of them being portrayed as Diaclone mecha in their initial appearance, are the same basic concept as the likes of Road Rage and Tigertrack — "Transformers versions" of existing Diaclone toys and decoes. It helps that [[Spin-Out (G1)]] inherently blurs the lines, having first appeared as a "normal" Transformer ''before'' he was portrayed as a former Diaclone mech.

For the GoBots characters, I'd frankly be tempted to go even more radical and just merge ''all'' of them — put all the [[Cy-Kill (disambiguation)|Cy-Kill]] cameos on one page, like we do for other external property characters. Even in the edge cases like [[Fracture (Movie)|Fracture]], there's the precedent of her actually being intended as just ''being'' the GoBot. It feels a lot simpler to me than the headache of having Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, and Bug Bite, the ''other'' white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, having separate pages on a technicality. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:57, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Hard disagree on GoBots. By virtue of covering the Scioli comic in full, we have a GoBots continuity family to put them in. I say keep the ones who are explicitly GoBots at (GoBots), and put the ones who are Transformers (or ambiguous) at their respective continuity families. Basically, what we're doing for Bug Bite, do for all of them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:23, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:I don't agree on movie-Fracture in specific and the mass-merge of ''all'' GoBots-based characters in general. Fracture's a movie-universe character who premiered in a movie-based toyline and appeared in movie-timeline fiction. "The toy was originally conceived as" holds very little water there in light of all the rest of that. I'm not wild about merging characters from different continuity families (aka "major franchise umbrellas", the point of that divide was always less "fiction-detail based" and more "real-world Hasbro/Takara starting over based" as an organizational tool), as that leans heavily towards the Wikipedia style "just lump 'em all together" manner that... doesn't really work for our scope. There's SG Bug Bite and Crasher too, I don't think they should go under a giant singular page for the character concept.
: But ''in general'' I agree with keeping stuff like Lift-Ticket and Burn Out together because the distinction is really too nitpicky to be useful. If we get an EarthSpark Lift-Ticket who is a red Hoist-like bot, then they can go on a separate page because "new major franchise umbrella" gives a decent degree of separation. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:25, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: Oh, well, the SG GoBots are an obvious exception. If it's a "mirror universe" I feel like it should never share a page because the point is that it's the opposite.
:: That said, there are other nuances I admit I skimmed over — stuff like Wings Universe Cop-Tur, who's based on the original but is a secret genius and a good guy, I'm not sure he should be merged in. At the same time, though, splitting the Bug Bites feels disingenuous, and I'm not sure whether there's a good middle ground between "split 'em all" and "merge 'em all". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:44, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I also agree there isn't really a good middle ground. But here's the thing: If GoBots wasn't a factor and it was just G1 and Cyberverse, we wouldn't be having this conversation. At the end of the day, they're from another IP, but they're also genuine Transformers characters, and thus they should remain split like other Transformers characters. And that includes treating the genuine GoBot incarnations as separate entities. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:51, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I am, honestly, not sold either way on splitting/merging re: the "very distinctly the Tonka GoBots who originated from the Tonka GoBots franchise". I feel that there are '''''definitely''''' some bots that should not be merged with the Tonkas, by virtue of being from different continuity-families/hub-franchises (bots from the live action movies and Cyberverse, for example, should really stay separate). I'm less concerned about "in-fiction origin" because that's a clusterfuck all its own since 1984 best just left alone and we already disregard that for like Nebulans and stuff anyway, though I'd also argue that like, it should be taken into consideration the diff between an homage and an iteration (I'd argue ''Timelines'' Cop-Tur is the former and probably shouldn't be merged). But even just looking at them from the real-world staggered integration of the franchises, GoBots ARE a weird edge case (whaaat, something Scioli was involved in got weird? ''nnnoooOOOOOooooo'') and it kinda feels off to not treat them as a separate thing given their ultimate origins. But like, they are, functionally, "G1" characters as far as "how they were brought to TF" goes in the real world, and I'm not convinced that splitting out WFC Bug Bite is really a good idea or terribly helpful. So like, I dunno. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:06, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::::And then there's the ''very'' unique case of GoBots Stretch having been given a retroactive backstory of being born in the world of Transformers Animated before he crossed dimensions and became a GoBot. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:23, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::::If anything, Stretch is a Transformer pretending to be a GoBot.
:::::The criteria that keep this wiki running and readable have always had some smudgy bits, and if you stare too long at any of them pretty soon all one sees is the smudge, not the dividing line or even the story itself. Cyberverse and Prime are each ''basically'' a retelling of G1, and if they didn't have a few features we've accepted as clear dividers from "real" G1, they could have gone within G1 just as much as the IDW comics have. The divisions are necessary to keep information from being a useless, unstructured, unnavigable mess; hopefully we can draw the lines in a way that comes to require the fewest exceptions later. '''My thoughts''': when there's a Bug Bite whose origin is explicitly "I'm not a Transformer, I'm hiding among them, creatures like myself find Transformers to be nauseating uncanny valley aliens," then that's a pretty extreme division, more extreme than many others we've been holding up for years without controversy, and should stay very much separate from any other Bug Bites who are just plain ol' white car Transformers. The various Cy-Kill cameos in G1 and Armada should stay separate, just because that's how we handle other hi-and-die cameos across firm storyline borders (Animated Overlord, SG Krok). I agreed at first with splitting the Burnouts/Lift-Tickets, but if it is really causing a huge dilemma I do not object to re-merging them. Each pair exists within the G1 storytelling universe. It is not essential that we build 2 different pages for G1 universe Lift-Tickets where one of them is a Diaclone mech and the other looks just like it and comes from someplace called Diaclone. We could paper that over with a "Note" explanation. The really important part is that both the Burn-Out and Lift-Ticket cases must get the same resolution. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 05:10, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:I vote for split. I regret ever pushing for merging similar concepts around the time of ''Ask Vector Prime'' because a decade ago this wouldn't have been a question, it would have been settled with "obvious they're different characters." [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:38, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Strongly in favor of putting the Diaclones back together so long as they remain essentially G1 guys. Especially since we now have ''two nigh-identical Burn-Out pages that differ only by which sliver of fiction section they possess''. Moderately in favor of putting all the dumb Cy-Kill cameos together because, like, it's only moderately funny to split out Cy-Kill (Armada) on a technicality. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:47, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: I'm going to stay out of the Bugbite / Fracture question. I'm too involved on the creative side. I think Walky nails it about Burn-Out & Lift-Ticket. And probably the Cy-Kill cameos too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:11, 29 July 2022 (EDT)

:I have to ask: if this is a concern, why did we split out the Cloud articles a month ago. Because they also are clearly designed to look like G1 characters, and aside from some minor changes in personality and dimension hopping stuff (which also applies to these three examples here), are near-identical in fiction to their Generation 1 counterparts. What makes them different from Bug Bite, Burn Out, and Lift-Ticket? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:29, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Lead Cloud translator here. As we discussed in-depth at the time, the Cloud characters do nothing *but* dimension hop and frequently cross over with the Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity and their own G1 incarnations, rendering them nigh unintelligible when buried in A-list G1 articles. The Cloud issue was one of logistics and readability, not one on the philosophy of intrinsic "G1-ness," as I believe was said at the time. I would also argue something on the scale of Cloud is a different discussion entirely from the current topic of merging two one-paragraph articles.

::On a most practical level re-merging a thoroughly deliberated and reasonably large scale split from a couple months ago just strikes me as kind of a waste of community resources.

::For those that missed it the impetus was translating the other 80-90% of the prose and the discussion can be found [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Splitting_Cloud_characters|here]]. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

Had a brainwave about a potential way to handle the GoBots characters—as a compromise between "treating them like full Transformers characters" and "treating them like external properties", use the GoBots page as a "hub" for the others. I've mocked up a couple of sandboxes for [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Cy-Kill|Cy-Kill]] and [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Bug Bite|Bug Bite]]. Any thoughts? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:16, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:If we absolutely have to (which I still really don't agree with) I'd prefer this over full fledged merging. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:02, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:I think this is a good compromise. The important thing is that there's a clear delineation between the dimension-hopping GoBots and native Cybertronians, and I think this fits the bill. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:03, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
::I still don't like the idea of rolling in the ''Cyberverse'' Bug Bite or any other not-G1-franchise iterations on the GB character concepts (like movieverse Fracture), even in the proposed super-abridged-and-linked-to-main-article format. For the appearances within the franchise of TF-origin, sure, I think this works. Cy-Kill's multiverse of murder... ehn. I'm not really feeling strongly either way but like we got hi-then-die charcater micropages aplenty, I don't think Cy is something terribly unique to not get them. Like... we got a page for "the many deaths of Optimus Prime", I feel like "the many deaths of Cy-Kill" could probably stand to be its own thing if we REALLY wanted to hammer the point of how stupid and hack it is home. Which, come to think about it, I kinda DO. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:42, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Ah, see, Fracture was something I was specifically thinking of here — I thought it would work to accomodate both the original intent and how she's been tied back to Crasher in <s>Jim's nonsense</s> fan-targeted media while still respecting the practical reality of Fracture as her own, movieverse character. That said, I do understand your reluctance, so if the majority is against this I'm not too fussed. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:22, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, it feels like "Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee" is its own Transformers thing at this point. He may have originated as a GoBots transplant (both in real life and in fiction), but that doesn't automatically make every iteration of Bug Bite a GoBot, any more than every subsequent iteration of Lockdown or Lugnut is considered an Animated character. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:34, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::::I appreciate the work Riptide put into this and like the writing / presentation style employed... and I just still don't think it's necessary. Between disambigs and "You Look Familiar...", we already have ways to cope with characters who look alike across different continuities but who aren't the same character. Most of these transplanted GoBots are absolutely not the same characters as each other - most of the Cy-Kill cameos, Cyberverse Bug Bite. There is no need for us to build a new way to unite those cross-continuity characters when nothing unites them more than the "basic concepts" that we've kept separate on hundreds of other name / appearance reuses. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:43, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::I adore this brain blast, over and above what I proposed below (as it actually accommodates, in Cy-Kill's case, say, the ''Armada/TransTech/Animated'' cameos), and think the fact that people on both sides of this polarising issue aren't immediately opposed to it makes it strike me as a really good compromise. I still would prefer the ''Diaclone'' pages to be merged with their G1 counterparts, but whether or not it's a full merge or just the "main article" structure here, the intro phrasing proposed with Cy-Kill and Bug-Bite is perfect in my opinion. The key thing for me is that, when people look up info on Cy-Kill or Burn Out, they still find a pointer to the relevant information at the exact point they'd expect it to be, and not only that, but they can chart the entire conceptual history of the character on one page (I know the disambigs theoretically do the same, but in practise Jo's approach is much more effective). Assuming the same policy isn't applied to ''Uprising'' appearances, I still think something should be done about those—but otherwise I'd be very happy with this. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:16, 1 August 2022 (EDT)

So as I understand it, the consensus is that Diaclone characters should share a page with their G1 counterparts, and that — at least for the moment — GoBot characters should be left as-is, with White Bumblebee's G1 adventures split between the GoBot and G1 pages? Would appreciate some more input before we begin implementing this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:09, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:I still don't like the Diaclone thing but clearly I'm outvoted. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:More or less. I'm fine with rolling G1 WFC Bug Bite in with the explicitly-GoBots one in the manner test-bedded above on the same grounds as the whole "Nebulan/Cybertronian" deal with Targetmaster gun-bots we've done forever; I think the proposed format both works with the way we've handled disparate depictions between different fictions within the same franchise chunk for a very long time now while noting the important real-world issues with these transplanted characters. And it's not like the combo page would be anywhere near big enough to make a split-out necessary. But I'm willing to table that for the moment while moving ahead with rolling the Diaclones back in. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:15, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
::I agree with this completely. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:11, 3 August 2022 (EDT)
:Diaclone characters should share pages with G1 counterparts who are also canonically said to be Diaclone-y. If we ever get a "Gobots Universe Bug Bite" that would be merged too - but just "white car Bug Bite" should not. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:21, 3 August 2022 (EDT)

==Proposal re: G1 pages==
I'm not expecting anything other than a hard "no" on this from the vast majority of editors, but a few people impelled me to post it, so here goes. In particular, I think this perspective is one held by many casual readers of the wiki. As I said over on [[Talk:Burn Out (Diaclone)|Burn Out's talk page]], I think both camps feel a sense of "''obviously'' these are (not) the same character", depending on whether they're coming from a strictly in-universe perspective or not. I want to put that whole discussion into an even broader perspective. Plus, I think the list of characters below is an interesting resource in its own right.

For ages, the wiki's had it so G1 appearances of characters originating in ''Robots in Disguise''—such as [[Sky-Byte (RID)]]—just get put on those pages. My understanding is that RID was considered something of a special case, because of how it was originally conceived as an in-continuity G1 thing, and remained such in Japanese continuity. For a less-prominent example, see also ''[[Power Core Combiners]]'', which similarly lists the IDW G1 appearances of [[Smolder (PCC)]] and [[Steamhammer (PCC)]] just on those pages. Again, this was a special case, because PCC was never concretely established as being a live-action movieverse thing or a G1 thing (which makes sense, because in Hasbro's eyes at the time, that wasn't a distinction that mattered to them).

There are other areas on the wiki that take a continuity-agnostic approach; I think it's just character pages that are handled so strictly. Check out [[Noisemaze Mass Production Type Version]]—which honestly ''is'' a character page in every way that matters—for a recently-made-relevant-again example. For many bigger-picture concept pages, a similar approach is used to great effect: [[Transformation]], [[Scanning]], [[Energon]], [[Protoform]], [[Spark]], [[Living metal]], [[Mini-Con]], [[Energon mutation]], just to grab a few random examples.

To draw attention to one last point, which I predict will resonate a lot with people who already agree with me and not at all with people who don't: any and all ''Beast Wars'' or ''Beast Machines'' original characters are exempt from this issue—despite, on a real-world level, there not really being any difference between those franchises and the likes of ''Armada'' or ''Animated''. It's just the lore connection that keeps it tethered, despite the wiki treating it as its ''own'' continuity family in basically every other way that matters.

My specific proposal is this: '''for characters originating ''outside of G1'', don't keep separate G1 pages.''' Treat those characters as we do Sky-Byte, ignoring the "continuity family" divide, and put the appearances on the page where they're most relevant. Here are the salient benefits of this approach:
*Have all the information on many popular post-G1 characters in the place where most casual readers would expect to look.
*Cut the Gordian knot of the GoBots/Diaclone debate.
*Finally ditch all those (BWU) pages consisting of a single sentence and a duplicated toy entry.
*Fewer redundant toy writeups which need to be maintained in parallel.
*Far, far fewer awkward paragraphs in Notes sections talking about "continuity transplants" like those are a real thing.

Here is a list of pages which I think would be affected, sorted by continuity, just from an hour or so of searching:
*'''''Diaclone''''': [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]]
*'''''GoBots''''': [[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Crasher (G1)]], [[Cy-Kill (G1)]], [[Leader-1 (G1)]], [[Rest-Q (G1)]], [[Cop-Tur (G1)]] (!)
*'''''Armada''''': [[Hot Shot (G1)]], [[Red Alert (IDW)]], [[Demolisher (G1)]], [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Sideways (RM)]] (!), [[Treadshot (IDW)]]
*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Override (BWU)]], [[Ransack (IDW)]], [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Signal Lancer (G1)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Barricade (IDW)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Breacher (G1)]], [[Terradive (G1)]], [[Hailstorm (G1)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''Animated''''': [[Bulkhead (G1)]] (!), [[Lugnut (TF 2010)]], [[Lockdown (G1)]], [[Slipstream (G1)]] (!), [[Oil Slick (G1)]], [[Lightbright (G1)]], [[Lickety-Split (G1)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Breakdown (IDW)]], [[Airachnid (G1)]], [[Predaking (Kingdom)]], [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Rescue Bots''''': [[Medix (G1)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Scatterspike (G1)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Headlock (G1)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Transit (G1)]], [[Fracture (Cybertron)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Cyberverse''''': [[Shadow Striker (G1)]], [[Croaton (G1)]], [[Meteorfire (G1)]], [[Wildwheel (G1)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Doomwings (G1)]], [[Ursa Major (G1)]], [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': (deep breath) [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Twirl (G1)]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Sky Blast (G1)]], [[Sureshock (G1)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]
I assuredly missed some, so feel free to edit the lists above to add any other characters that would be affected by this proposal which are omitted!

Again, the vast majority of these are from ''Beast Wars Uprising'', which does have some weird lingering cases that would need further individual discussion, I think: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]]. But for the most part, I really don't see any reason why there should be all these tiny nothing pages; the only reason all those Mini-Cons were not called Mini-Cons is that in the ''Uprising'' universe, Mini-Cons are called Micromasters instead (which is the lore equivalent of "[[Barricade (G1)]] doesn't look like he's made of knives"). This is even ''less'' an irreconcilable lore detail than, for example, the organic/robotic split for Targetmasters and the like. My main goal with sharing this is to revisit the ''Uprising'' policy, because from where I'm sitting, it's resulted in exactly the same horribly inconvenient setup as the ''Diaclone'' stuff. A different, specific policy there would deal with most of the examples above, and I'd be very happy; what I've suggested is just a one-size-fits-all policy.

The weirdest victim of this stated policy, I think, is that of [[Bulkhead (G1)]], who technically originated with Animated, but whose appearances in G1 media have all drawn specifically from the ''Prime'' version. [[Slipstream (G1)]] is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: [[Slipstream (Animated)]], [[Slipstream (WFC)]] and [[Slipstream (Cyberverse)]], depending on which specific version is being depicted. That means all of the Bulkhead appearances would actually go on the ''Prime'' page. I really don't feel strongly on this detail, though. [[Cop-Tur (G1)]], as mentioned in the above discussion, is another edge case. One more strange case ''not'' listed above is that of [[Emissary (IDW)]], who homages the ''Robots in Disguise'' character but genuinely has what I'd consider to be a radically different portrayal, likely inspired as much by the ''Titans Return'' figure as anything.

To be clear, I consider G1 a special case because of how it's a catch-all label for anything that isn't Hasbro's newest ground-up reboot du jour. Like it or not, G1 usually doesn't actually mean "G1" any more, it just means ''Transformers''. I absolutely wouldn't want to start merging anything from other continuity families—that way pure madness lies. But I think this proposal has clear-cut criteria for inclusion, and would feel more consistent with other areas of existing wiki policy. To give a specific, relevant example: I don't think [[Fracture (Movie)]]'s appearances should be folded onto her merged ''GoBots'' page as some have suggested, ''but'' I do think her toy writeup should be on both without any "blah blah repurposed" hedging, and likewise for the other movieverse characters based on redecos designed by [[Joe Kyde]] contemporaneously with Classics and Universe with specific G1 characters (mostly Micromasters) in mind, some of which were even intended to be released as part of the ''Universe'' toyline. These being: [[Fracture (Movie)]], [[Big Daddy (Movie)]], [[Jolt (Movie)]], [[Grindcore (Movie)]], [[Breakaway (Movie)]], and [[Crankcase (Movie)]]. [[Mudflap (Movie)]] and [[Inferno (Movie)]] are basically the exact same but nobody ever talks about that.

Finally, I think [[Gigatron (G1)]]/[[Overlord (G1)]], [[Zaptrap]]/[[Kuwagatrer]], and [[Rotorbolt (Timelines)]]/[[Skyklik]]/[[Fumes]] should prrrooobably be revisited? In the former two cases, they exist due to niche media establishing them as separate individuals within the same continuity, but we already have precedent for dealing with that—see [[Hot Shot (G1)]]. I will concede that the Rotorbolt situation is quite funny.

I understand that the wiki is structured the way it is for good reasons, but the post-[[Evergreen]] state of the franchise is one where most writers are plucking characters from anywhere in the franchise's history without any significant changes to their depiction. The existing policy will only become more cumbersome as time goes on, in my eyes—I know for many editors, the list of pages above is a horrible scary list of Exceptions, but from where I'm sitting, they feel more like exceptions as they already stand? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 07:25, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:As someone who is basically sympathetic to your goals and not knee-jerk opposed to the idea, this:
:::"Slipstream (G1) is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: Slipstream (Animated), Slipstream (WFC) and Slipstream (Cyberverse), depending on which specific version is being depicted."
:is the worst thing I've ever read. Just, why? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I was mostly being glib, I don't have a good answer there! Just wanted to draw attention to the fact that it ''would'' be a problem with the proposal. It's also been pointed out that all of [[Lockdown (G1)|Lockdown]]'s appearances are visually based on the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' toy! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:56, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Absolutely not. There's so much here that's based on false assumptions/incorrect information that I absolutely refuse to take any of this seriously. Concepts are on the same page because they are just that: concepts. There's so much to pick apart here but because I have important things to do, I'll just say that right now, the only reason why there was ''ever'' any confusion over Power Core Combiners is because fans took behind the scenes information from the company overly literally. You actually look at the one piece of information about the toyline (the brief history provided directly by Hasbro the club) and it makes it abundantly clear that it was always meant to be movieverse; I even argued back at the time about Smoulder and Steamhammer being put on that page, and the only reason why it's still that way is because the argument just fizzled out. And once again, I really have to ask: why the hell are we pushing forward merges based on "vibes" when we still keep the Sideways' (someone who is actually said in fiction to all be the same guy) apart based on moronic, petty reasons? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:01, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Yeah, no, sorry, I think this is ultimately unhelpful and going to cause more accessibility issues than it solves. "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in" is perhaps a little confusing to new readers, but it's ultimately fairly self-consistent and easy to navigate once you understand the basic concept; "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in, with the exception of RID01 which shares its pages with G1, and any latter-day characters imported into G1, which go on the pages of their non-G1 incarnations" is very confusing and requires you to be deep in the sauce to understand which characters are and are not exceptions to the rule. I obviously think that flexibility of the system is a good thing — the RID/G1 merge, while less than ideal, is definitely the best way to solve a very unintuitive issue — but the more holes we poke in the tower the closer it comes to collapsing, if you catch my drift.
:Ultimately I think the occasional silliness of "Shadow Striker (G1) who is identical to Shadow Striker (Cyberverse)" and such is the price we pay for having any structure whatsoever. The more we make exceptions on the basis of ultimately arbitrary "well this one's SO similar" the less consistent the wiki overall gets, and the harder it gets to navigate. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Basically, this. And I don't even think that drawing the franchise-based chunk distinction is all that confusing given I think most people grok the idea that characters will pop up across sub-fictions of major multi-media franchises with varying levels of similarity to prior incarnations that are still "oh, it's a wholly separate storyline, okay". That's just how these things ''do''. (and like "multiverse" has kinda become a ''thing'' in other franchises the last several years) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 10:00, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:"We've always put RID guys appearing in G1 as still being the RID character, look at Sky Byte" - what other examples make this an "always"? There WERE two Sky Byte pages, for years. We only stopped having a Sky-Byte (G2) when its character model in the IDW G1 comic was explicitly based off the new T30 toy sculpt which wound up with like half of these separate articles duplicating each other. It was argued on that talk page for a long while. The only other case I can think of at all is Gigatron (G1), and we ''don't'' treat him like Megatron (RID).
:"We treat BW as a continuity family like Armada, it looks like we are showing favoritism to them" - we treat it like a franchise within G1, which is what it is. And we disambig by franchise, not by continuity family. "Chase (RB)", not "Chase (Aligned)" or "Chase (Prime)". This was one of the concerns I raised last year when we turned Victory, Masterforce et al into G1 because they had no separate box branding of their own, wait it turned out they did, welp whattaya gonna do, no backsies.
:'''Last but MOST''', I'd say that, yes, "lore connections" mean a great deal here, it is a feature not a bug. This is a fiction-centric wiki as surely as it's an English-centric one. We put character writeups first, above the toys. We give the toys the character names and say "his stickers", not "its stickers" and talk about how it represents the character, not about how many micrograms of silicon it contains. Separating characters because they come from different storyline eras / offerings is entirely normal and reasonable for us. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:43, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I don't disagree in general, but G1/IDW Gigatron DOES share a page with RID Megatron. [[Gigatron (G1)]] is the Overlord repurpose. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:49, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Oof. Don't know why I clearly remembered them as being separate, but in any case I regret the error. Thank you.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
There's no way to organize something like this place without something somewhere seeming arbitrary. I think the existing structure is arbitrary in the best way that makes the most sense, and trying to "mitigate" that arbitrariness just creates different arbitrariness. A lot of this "but what if we redid all this to fix this particular thing" shuffling just relitigates why we already do the stuff we already do. so, like: no --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 09:54, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

== The Discord ==

Alright, seriously, we need to talk about this. It is beyond frustrating that a greater than 50% chunk of discussion about what big edits will happen on the wiki are happening on an app that people either aren't on or (in my case) aren't allowed on. I was told it was going to just to get voices onto things but that clearly isn't how it's working out. We need either some sort of archival dump of all these posts or something because I'm tired of getting into arguments where half the responses haven't even happened on the main site itself. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:45, 17 August 2022 (EDT)
: I think you're drastically overestimating how much discussion about big edits is happening on the Discord. No actual big decisions are getting made there, and we make it a point to repeatedly remind people that discussion for major changes needs to happen here before anything gets decided. But we also can't stop anyone from simply talking about things there the same way we couldn't stop discussion on the AllSpark thread when that was a thing, and having a public log of discussions from the editing channel is both infeasible and frankly unnecessary. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 09:09, 17 August 2022 (EDT)

==Designer bylines on toy writeups==

As those of us who have been tuning in to the [[Hasbro Pulse#Livestreams|Hasbro Pulse livestreams]] have no doubt noticed, one side effect of the unprecedented transparency of the current team on the ''Generations'' franchise is that we are now pretty consistently being blasted with a fire hose of toy designer credits. While there's been a scramble to record them on the designers' pages as best we can, this rapidly growing body of information is not doing the average reader a whole lot of good sequestered away on pages that require them to already know the designers by name. As such, I've put together a template to act as a designer byline for relevant toy write-ups, largely following the formatting of our existing voice actor template.

Documentation for the prototype template which I've named '''<nowiki>{{toydesigner}}</nowiki>''' can be found here:

*[[:Template:Toydesigner]]

And a variety of examples of implementation can be found here:

*[[User:AzimuthAcolyte/Sandbox/Toy credits demo]]

Is this something we would be interested in implementing?

Questions, concerns, suggestions etc are welcome. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:33, 22 August 2022 (EDT)

:I support adding this template, it's valid information and helps put names and faces in a historically anonymous industry due to the lack of credits in the products themselves.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:38, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I think this is a great idea. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I really like it. The only possible negative is that unless a whole bunch of people are very dedicated to this (or one brave soul is ''extremely'' dedicated to it) we might end up seeing it only appear on a small handful of toy entries and most will never feature it. I vote for going ahead with it regardless.
:::While we are addressing the "designer credits" issue, can we also please find a better phrase to use on the designer pages than "Toys So-and-so is known to have had a hand in creating"? It's just so overwrought. I think "Design Team Credits Include:" gets the point across much more naturally.... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:54, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::::This is a fair point. Maybe something as blunt as "Known Design Work" mirroring the "Published Works" thing we use for writers/artists? -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Looks good to me. Hope we can scrounge together sources and lists for older design teams too. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 15:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I can't see any reason not to do this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not a toy person, but that looks really cool! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:23, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
Oh wow, I'm blown away by the universally positive reception here! If there are no concerns in the next few days I guess I'll get started rolling this out. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Alrighty it's been a fair bit with no further concerns, so I have pushed the template live to [[:Template:Toydesigner]] and will begin implementing it as I have time. Any and all help is appreciated, as this will of course be a huge job. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 16:13, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Wiki Toy Photo Quality Standards ==
So we know (and had long suspected anyway) that Hasbro designers are sometimes pulling Wiki photos for reference. That's great, but we've got some toy photography on here that's a good bit off from what the figures look like in reality for one reason or another. Is there any way to flag shots that are out of whack so that they might get tweaked or replaced? This issue comes to mind since, while I've been here more or less since the Wiki started, I don't recall there being a formal set of standards for photos since it just wasn't really a big deal before now. Oversaturation is my main complaint, since one user a long while ago was going through, taking existing shots into Photoshop and oversaturating the hell out of them without regard to the actual toy, and I've noticed some updated photography like [[Prowl (Magnaboss)]] that does basically the same. It's a larger photo, but that Prowl is definitely not blazing yellow in person. Apologies in advance and please disregard if this has already been discussed elsewhere or before.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:10, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:For the record, my lighting set up is very warm, hence why Prowl's colours appear so bright. I haven't figured out the right balance in Photoshop to get the colours of figures to look spot on so figures either appear too bright or too dull in the finished product. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:30, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::Oh, I'm not intending to put you on the spot, that's just the first example I had on hand of a wider issue that we probably need to start being careful about since it appears to be (hilariously) affecting actual figures now, like Titans Return PMOP or Legacy Iguanus. When it was the one guy tweaking things to be inaccurate "because it looked better", I could follow him and revert stuff, but I can't when there's nothing to revert in most cases.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 18:38, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::I recommend ring lights, you can get some pretty cheap, they've good at spreading light out rather than heavy-focus, and they have adjustable brightness and warm/cool light settings: use "cool" (aka white/blue-tinted). Even before I got ring lights, I used "cool" light bulbs in the lamps. The problem is these are nowhere as common as the "normal" yellow-tinted bulbs, thus, go with the ring lights.
::As for "standards"... well, good luck with that. Every camera's a little different. Every MONITOR is a little different. Hell, I have a double-monitor setup with different models and they have small but distinct differences in brightness & etc; honestly I'm good with it since it lets me check how things may look to different people. But I think maybe a tag for photos that we are CERTAIN are too far off from final product (be they user-made or stock images) may not be a bad idea. Assuming we notice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:44, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, a tag we can throw on to a photo just to make it at least visible that it's incorrect would be useful. And would probably prompt a deco designer to gather some secondary reference material, assuming the tag's obvious. I like the idea.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:29, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I've noticed that the quality of the UT stuff in the toys section flunctuates greatly-- for example, ML Starscream still uses the guidebook picture, and Superlink ver of the combining Optimus downright doesn't exist. I've started to collect UT toys since Hasbro has been updating UT stuff with more commitment and I have 0 faith in them doing it right, and most of the stuff I've gotten are the JP versions. For minor alterations like ML/ Armada Megs, is it worth uploading a completely new picture of ML Megatron onto his page? Another issue worth regarding discussing is "cartoon accuracy". Whilst Hasbro is indeed working on making more accurate figures, they obviously aren't 100% accurate, like 86 starscream using the commonly accepted G1 logo instead of the sunbow accurate one with the spike in the middle, and even from a sculpt and proportional standppint the ER mold is far from accurate compared to the sunbow model, let alone MP52. I actually cleaned up the page for TM2 Megatron because he deviates pretty heavily if you compare the CG model to the final toy, and changed the claim that Skids is "toon" accurate as he is blantently based on the original toy in deco. The same goes for Starscream, aside from the forearms and forehead hes blatently based on the T30 toy. I also had to edit that bit --[[User: Pixelmaster|Pixelmaster]] 3:31 HKT

==Reconsolidating some of our pages==
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, but I'd like to propose re-merging some of our excessively split articles back into something more manageable. It seems like that once a page is split out, a) we get a lot less editorial oversight, as the recent toy page trimming has revealed, b), stuff does not get updated nearly as often as they would be on their respective mainpages, and c) it makes information harder to find by pushing it behind a subpage that's not readily accessible.

Obviously I understand that splits are necessary for the really long pages like [[Optimus Prime (G1)]], [[Megatron (G1)]], and soforth, but when you get down to like, [[Mirage (G1)]] or [[Hound (G1)]] or [[Hot Shot (Armada)]], there's barely anything of any significance on their main pages beyond Dreamwave or the odd IDW cameo. Are, for instance, [[Ravage (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ravage]]'s Marvel adventures that major that they can't fit into the main page? Are [[Hook (G1)/toys|Hook]] or [[Warpath (G1)#Toys|Warpath]] really that inundated with toys that they need their own subpage? If it's a problem of just ''length'', then a lot of the subpaged articles or mainpage stuff like the storybooks could just be trimmed down into something more manageable—as I did with G1 Cliffjumper's Marvel section earlier this year. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 17:00, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:I 100% agree with this. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:04, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Fully in favour. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 17:20, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Sub-pages should, on their own, be significantly sizable pages to justify making readers link-jump. A dozen toys does not strike me as remotely enough to justify a subpage split. Being ''in'' a major long-running fiction but mostly having appearances in a minority of installments that can be summed up in two sentences doesn't justify a split. New editing tools are fun and all, but just 'cuz you gotta new hammer doesn't mean you have to go hunting for anything that looks vaguely nail-like. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:18, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Incoming maintenance ==

Just a heads up, our host is going to be doing some maintenance in about an hour that may cause problems with the site, so if you have trouble reaching it and therefore cannot read this message, that's what it is. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:11, 23 November 2022 (EST)

== Foreign names ==

A dispute came up recently on the [[Megatron (ES)]] page. User:Kiké Prime has been providing Hungarian names for all the characters, but this one apparently is just "Megatron". Cyberlink420 removed it. I disputed it, pointing out that not listing it leaves the implication that we do not know the name of the character in the language. Despite having my reversion again reverted, I still find deliberately leaving blanks in our name lists odd. I am thus bringing the matter here for further discussion. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:16, 5 December 2022 (EST)
:My understanding has always been that we only add foreign names if they are different from the English name. Per pages like [[Megatron (G1)]], this includes examples where the name is the same, but is spelled with a diacritic or using a different alphabet. So "Megatron" wouldn't be different enough to justify inclusion, but examples like Mégatron, Megatrón, Мегатрон and メガトロン would. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:10, 5 December 2022 (EST)

== Nonbinary Character Category ==

So, we now have another nonbinary character (who actually used their pronouns during the media no less), [[Nightshade (ES)|Nightshade]] from [[Transformers: EarthSpark (franchise)|Earthspark]] (Nightshade at time of posting doesn't have a page yet)! The other fully for certain fully intentional one is [[Screwball]] from [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] while [[Acid Storm (Cyberverse)|Acid Storm]] was at least an out of media by writer retcon of animation, and [[Overlord_(G1)#Ask_Vector_Prime|Overlord's]] gender is somewhat nebulous on where that fits beyond being gender expansive due to being [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#December 23, 2015|"what some would call genderfluid"]] but that at least puts us at three. Given that we have a trans category now we thought it best to at this point suggestion a nonbinary category for the sake of users (including gender expansive people) easily finding nonbinary characters on here. Obviously adding Nightshade will have to wait until they have a page but any thoughts on this yea or nay? [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 18:28, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:I forgot about Screwball. I think with three confirmed examples, even without the edge case of Overlord, that's probably enough to justify one. Care will have to be taken, however, to only include confirmed examples and not use it as a dumping ground for any character whose gender has never been explicitly identified. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:37, 8 December 2022 (EST)
::Authorial intent and all, but I can say that if I had the option to go back and rewrite it I would have used the term non binary for Overlord. I feel like Acid Storm is more of an edge case; it’s what one person said on their account to justify it. Whenever Acid Storm actually says something they’re animated with a female face; it’s not done at random.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:47, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::Acid Storm changes from masculine male to feminine female and back. Gender-fluid, sure, but definitely non-binary? As for Overlord, in the Legends manga Mega gives Overlord a female-presenting face - is there a pronoun change during that time? Would we have more candidates for inclusion in a Gender-fluid category first? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:17, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::::Thank for the notes folks, that does help to piece this together! Just want to note that a pronoun change is not necessary for a gender being experienced in fluidity to be the one expressed or what have you, so unless the Legends manga actually has some sort of statement about Overlord's fluidity that kind of puts us back with an umbrella term of nonbinary (which we are unsure as not having read the Legends manga if that would work for that Overlord so we can't speak to where/if Overlord falls under gender expansiveness beyond the fact that Overlord's presentation changes depending on the binary bond partner right?). Acid Storm is an edge case yes but if we do count the edge case that they are we think it is worth noting that for Acid Storm what Catt said was specifically that changing expression is just something they do, and "any pronouns" work for Acid Storm, no statement about the binary. Of course, we only see two faces which are the two different Seeker faces that were otherwise delineated by gender, but at this point we're getting into the opt-in thing of 'x person is genderfluid and thus considers themself nonbinary' or 'z person is genderfluid and only considers themself as under the multigender umbrella'. Which we don't have detail on really if Acid Storm is genderfluid as how they know themselves right? Because that's just a thing that was written in the Female Transformers page because of (no blame being given, it's understandable) the user finding that to be the term that fit best? Feel like we've ended up just pointing out an need for just a gender expansive category instead but ah well. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:46, 1 January 2023 (EST)
::::::We seem to have killed this with a non-solution for the nonbinary category by pointing out that gender expansive is more certain than saying genderfluid. If we count Nightshade, Overlord, and Screwball, is that a go on nonbinary, or should we just have a gender expansive category at this point that would also be one trans characters use? For people wondering what gender expansive means you can find a definition here https://www.diversitystyleguide.com/glossary/gender-expansive/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/08/gender-expansive-mean/ [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:18, 6 February 2023 (EST)
:::::::Respectfully, I think needing to invoke a glossary suggests the term is so little-used in common parlance that it would not be useful for our needs and style. We don't have a category tag at the bottom of a bunch of BW characters saying "tetrapods" or "perissodactyls" (we ''do'' talk like that on [[Popular beast alternate modes]], maybe a grouping ''page'' would be a better approach? Just a thought...). If we are looking for a category tag I think it would be better to find the term that unambiguously covers the largest number of candidates, without a need to rely on edge cases, maintaining both accuracy and readability. I see three characters that could sensibly go in a Gender-fluid tag, one that could go in a Non-binary tag (meaning we wouldn't make the latter). We may be facing a case where there are few enough disparate examples that there isn't one single category tag that usefully unites them. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:55, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::::::::With the most recent block of EarthSpark episodes having further explored Nightshade's character and introduced a new nonbinary character in the form of Sam (this also saw the term nonbinary used in the show for the first time), we have been discussing the topic of introducing a Nonbinary characters category on the Discord. Doing some research, AVP also confirmed the Tigerhawk of Primax 496.22 Alpha (the Beast Wars cartoon continuity) to be nonbinary, so that's another character to justify that category. It's been suggested by an expert on the matter that we could introduce a "Gender expansive characters" category as an umbrella category, with Genderfluid characters, Nonbinary characters, and Transgender characters existing as subcategories as a way of future-proofing our coverage of gender expansive characters, while also ensuring we don't lump every gender expansive character together into a single broad category and hopefully making these concepts easier to navigate for casual readers. - [[User:Archforce|Archforce]] ([[User talk:Archforce|talk]]) 17:26, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::In sequence you replied to my post of Feb 7 but seem to have side-stepped the part where I questioned the usefulness of a category tag that will not be widely understood. Also, creating such a category exactly ''is'' "lumping them all together into a single broad category." So is that approach desirable or not? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::: They said the word nonbinary in the show. In a show full of nonbinary rep. And then nonbinary characters exists outside of that show, and it would not be a dangerous bet to expect this to continue. But people are born with an innate understanding of what an Alpha Primax 9384u743 is, or Transmetals, or Powermasters, but not what a nonbinary person is so yeah maybe we are going too far on this website for nerds who want to learn more about things related to Transformers (like nonbinary characters). We have a category called council members. Literally for any character who has served on any council. I did not understand what "council members" actually refered to before I clicked on it, assumed it was more specific than it was, but in fact it took me two seconds to figure it out. A non-binary category and/or gender-expansive category would surely be the same. And as Archforce says, make these concepts easier to navigate. Or if that was too long, what Walky said. Seriously. You also appear to misunderstand what is meant by lumping together. Because putting all non-binary people in a non-binary category is accurate, and is something I and at least some others want, putting all non-binary people on a transgender page would be a misrepresentative "all of these are the same thing right?". Gender-expansive on the other hand comes from someone familiar with the matter, and as a non-binary person myself, as someone who has researched gender representation in media at an honours level (to flex some credentials that yeah I could be making up), I agree with what is being said on the Discord. Gender expansive as an umbrella provides the room to not lump everyone together while recognising yeah there is something shared in any act of gender that is not one of cisgender conformity. Having transgender and nonbinary characters on the same page while called out as two seperate subcategories I again think helps casual readers navigate based on this. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 18:40, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::Not using the best useful terms because they're not understood by enough people is extremely self-defeating. I reject that line of thinking. (also, like, c'mon, the first complete article for this wiki was gaddang Robot-Master, not Optimus Prime, so I think we can say the words "gender expansive" even if someone hasn't heard of them) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:49, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::Thank you all for the discussion! To clarify regarding aesthetics (because gender is aesthetics, we can give recommendations on stuff to read re that), the term gender expansive does not in fact cover everybody, merely all the bots we're talking about it in this instance and likely future unless we get canon transformers fiction that actually uses a variable alien aesthetic system that isn't gender but is something similar. To put this another way: not all human societies' aesthetic category concepts and formulation of individual and collective context for self such as pronouns, names, expressions, (to use Leslie Feinberg's words for navigating transness and gender itself, the 'poetics,' not just construction) etc. used or uses those in a way that neatly fits modern Western gender constructs with a large number of examples both from outside Europe and within it. In a similar vein some xeno aesthetic spectrum folks (like some of ourselves, and yes we're getting very obscure here the gender parallel is xenogender) and speculative fiction/sci-fi about aliens live or navigates the idea of aesthetic structures that are not gender at all but merely overlap or parallel.
:::::::::::Transformers fiction has really only touched on the subject of the alien aspect of the bots' gender or lack thereof when trying to portray that something is there by e.g.; parallel with the embodying and living of their various modes such as when Lodestar speaks to having weapon retrofit dysphoria in the 2021 annual (yes, the 'embodying and living' is something we're borrowing from Gayle Salamon on how she frames gender), their unique histories, the December 23rd 2015 AVP gender answer having a note about continuities where the concept of gender is barely relevant, and possibly that time 'gal' got put in quotations (it's still unclear what Maggs meant by that but that's okay). So rest assured that while gender expansive is a broad category- it only future proofs us until alien terminology or narrative that is clearly shown in replacement of when gender would otherwise be used in a story actually happens in canon. Which would be incredibly exciting, but isn't where we are right now. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:11, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::But we are nonetheless at a special point in time in the transformations of transformers, that the categories genderfluid, nonbinary, and gender expansive would be useful for. <3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:15, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::Gosh that felt good to dedicating an afternoon to doing, thank you for the help! We feel that [[Editor|Chief]] ought to be included in the gender expansive category, and given the entry regarding Tigerhawk that was mentioned here, Spittor arguably also could be [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#May_23.2C_2015|"In some universes where Spittor scans an organic alternate mode, his biological system conforms to female while his Cybertronian gender identity is male."]]. Chief seems fairly obvious? RE Spittor where his situation could be argued to break down is the cybertronian understanding of gender maybe not matching gender and anatomy as framed by humans but then that in itself still qualifies. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:32, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::: *shrugs* maybe the latter re Spittor and similar situations is just something to note in an eventual article rather than to throw in the category itself [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:45, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::I'm gonna say that I'm for Editor while Spittor is ultimately a way of just saying that his alt-mode is a female frog even though he's male. Ala Tigatron in the cartoon, Waspinator, etc. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:57, 5 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::::Thank you, that helps clarify things! :3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:47, 5 March 2023 (EST)

== Adding an informative table to each character page ==
I was thinking about it since it's striking.. lack.. There should be a way to tell people in which and how many episodes/issues/movies each character appears in the continuity they belong to, their debut episode/issue movie, what aliases they have had and nicknames they were given by other characters, a more centered area for the voice or live actors, a link to their gallery pages(if they have any) and one to their disambiguation pages etc. The kind of information that one would prefer to find with greater ease, especially if they aren't members. And talking about their appearances, that should prove quite useful for future page edits, since we'll know exactly where to look especially when it's about latecomers or characters that don't appear on a regular basis. I just think it'd be useful. [[User:Darthrone|Darthrone]] ([[User talk:Darthrone|talk]]) 15:44, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:This kind of infobox was discussed at the very earliest days of this wiki, and it was decided that there was just way, way too much information for it to work... and this was in 2006, BEFORE the franchise exploded. TF is such a fragmented kludge of fictions from multiple sources and creators spanning 40 years that any major character would end up with one ultra-massive thing of dubious use (can't say I see the value in a "number of appearances" tally, aside from the headache of keeping that accurate over time and arguing "what counts"), or a billion splintered ones spread across the page for the different fictions. And "nicknames" is always a minefield as those tend to turn into a massive list of "someone called them this once" which is... not helpful. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:46, 2 February 2023 (EST)
::Even if it had been a day-1 thing, I don't see how this is more informative than our current style. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:58, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:::I'm for infoboxes, but the information you're asking for is far too abstract and meaningless in this franchise. (We are absolutely not doing "nicknames". No.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:09, 2 February 2023 (EST)

==The (BWU) tag==
I understand the reasons why [[#Proposal re: G1 pages|my previous proposal]] regarding the proliferation of (G1) pages for random newer characters was soundly rejected. However, my main motivation for raising it was that I find the huge quantity of (BWU) pages for "repurposed" Mini-Cons and bestial Transformers to be reader-unfriendly, so I wanted to make a case for making an exception for ''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]'' cameos. ''Uprising'' was an obscure barely-canon multi-continuity-drifting web serial which we are very unlikely to get further instalments of, and most of the relevant characters are similarly very deep pulls who will assuredly not be appearing again in future stories, and who will otherwise be stuck with tiny stub-pages forever. Most of these are Mini-Cons (here Micromasters) or bestial Transformers (here Protoformers), with a few boats or Constructicons from "[[Derailment]]". In many cases, I perceive ''Uprising'' as having tried to give these toys a hint of fiction where previously they had none at all, much like [[Ask Vector Prime]] before it. It's a very different phenomenon to most so-called "continuity transplants" we've seen in other series (such as with, say, [[Hot Shot (G1)]]), which are instead rooted in the popularity of those characters.

I think the problem here is that strictly speaking ''Uprising'' is a "Primax" continuity, sure, but it lifts dozens of characters (let alone concepts) unchanged from later stories. Slavishly hewing to that label when it's such an intertextual melting pot has resulted in this unfriendly setup. It feels like a fair decision made at the time (was [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive64#Derailment & Uprising pages|this discussion]] the one?) but in my opinion the wiki's policy kinda fails here. If we get rid of the (BWU) tag, the (G1) back-ports remaining (a minority!) will be for more significant characters, often adapted more radically. Here's the list of tiny pages we could be rid of, just like that:

*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]

There's a handful of ''Uprising'' characters that need a (G1) page anyway for non-''Uprising'' reasons; I'm totally ambivalent about where the ''Uprising'' content ends up for these: [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Override (BWU)]] (!), [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Twirl (G1)]].

Finally there's a few weird cases that would merit individual discussion but would probably just need to keep their own pages: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]].

Here is a ([https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&redirs=1&profile=all&search=%22from+the%22+%22continuity+families%22 probably non-exhaustive]) list of existing cases of multi-continuity drifting you should probably consider before weighing in:
* [[Buckethead]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 31, 2015|this Ask Vector Prime answer]])
* [[Drydock (TF 2010)]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 13, 2015|this answer]] which explicitly has him travel from one continuity to another)
* [[Drelnar Feh'd]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 17, 2015|this one]])
* [[Scorpia (G2)]], [[Autoceptor]], [[Deceptor]], and [[Kaltor]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#June 12, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Clear Skies Team]], [[Rapid Intervention Team]], [[Prehistoric Team]], [[Demolition Team]], [[Dirt Digger Team]], [[Heavy Load (Universe)]] and the [[Mobile Fortification Team]], and [[Detectas]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]]).
**However, exceptions from these Mini-Con teams are [[Nightscream (Cybertron)|Nightscream]], [[Offshoot (Cybertron)|Offshoot]], [[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]] and [[Knockdown (Cybertron)|Knockdown]], who all have separate (Cybertron) basis on the basis of receiving separate bios after being packed in with ''Cybertron'' Primus...
**...but then [[Liftor]] is all on a single page, despite his ''Classics'' bio.
**[[Snarl (Classics)|Snarl]], [[Sledge (Classics)|Sledge]], [[Wideload (Classics)|Wideload]], [[Knockdown (Classics)|Knockdown]], and [[Steel Wind]] already have ''Uprising'' content on their pages, but that makes sense as these were originally ''Classics'' guys.
* The [[Saurian Strike Team]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Minicon 8 Pack]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 24, 2015|this one]])
* The ''Dark of the Moon'' Mini-Cons [[Dualor (DOTM)]], [[Triceradon (DOTM)]], [[Rav (DOTM)]], and [[Catilla (DOTM)]], plus [[Ironlunge]], [[Reptix]], [[Sling (AOE)]], [[Gnashteeth]], [[Wedge Shape]], [[Brimstone (Universe)]], [[Apexus]], [[Gredator]], and [[Dragoyell]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#August 13, 2015|this one]])
** Weirdly, we ''separately'' have a page for [[Rav (BWU)]], but Catilla has Unicron Trilogy, movie, and ''Uprising'' appearances covered all on the one page!
* [[Galadria]] and [[Ramak]] (because of [[Source:Transformers: Spacewarp's Log#December 5, 2015|this post]])
* Am I to understand that [[Wind Sheer (RID)]], [[Skyfire (RID)]] and the [[Dimensional Patrol]] each have just a single page because (RID) ''is'' part of the G1 continuity family sometimes...?
* And I understand that [[Primus Vanguard]] cameos just go on their original pages because that's a weird thing kinda outside of G1 anyway (at least from an in-universe perspective, if not a real-world one).
* ''Diaclone'' examples like [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], and [[Chifumi Takahashi]] have been discussed to death.
* [[Monsterous]] was retconned to originally be from an Aligned universe (in [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#October 21, 2015|this post]], though I can't actually find any mention of Uniend? EDIT: [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#November 7, 2015|found it]]!)
* [[Primacron]] was apparently mentioned in ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II| The AllSpark Almanac II]]''.
* And [[Sentinel Supreme]] is just an Easter egg that everyone seemed to shrug about at the time.

To those who say the exception I'm proposing would be confusing, I submit these existing examples where we've apparently neglected to split something out as evidence that the only people this confuses are wiki editors like me wondering why they're not all that way. Maybe I'm just unaware of some aspect of the existing policy which accounts for all these cases? But is it really helpful to anyone to have a given toy's associated fiction squirrelled away somewhere separate you have to go into the disambiguation to find? We recently merged [[Chromhorn]] (another Sorenson job) on the basis that "There's literally no reason for these to be on different pages. They are the same thing." Can we not do the same for these Sorenson-penned cases that are basically going "look, the exact same guy shows up in multiple universes, alright?" And if the answer is no, will someone go through and split all these out? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:27, 6 February 2023 (EST)

:I think my response to your earlier G1-import proposal still applies here: the more exceptions we make to our system for the sake of "accessibility", the harder the overall structure becomes to grok for a new reader, and thus ironically it all becomes ''less'' accessible. Why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steel Jaw]], but ''Uprising'' Bisk be at [[Bisk (RID)]]? Or, conversely, why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steeljaw (RID)]], but LBS Steeljaw be at [[Steel Jaw|Steeljaw (IDW)]]? Neither solution is good.
:As for the current list of exceptions, I'd argue everything you list from Buckethead to the DOTM Mini-Cons should probably be split. Galadria and Ramak are characters from outside media, so we don't split them across continuity lines. Wind Sheer and Skyfire have one page for consistency with the other RID guys. The source on Monsterous being Aligned is [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#November_7.2C_2015|here]], but I would argue that's just giving an origin to the GoBot and so they should share a page anyway.
:Lastly - I object to you bringing the Chromhorn thing into this, as I don't think it's a fair comparison. Chromhorn wasn't making any exception to our categorisation system; it was one page saying "Chromhorn is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT" and another saying "Chromhorn Forest Type is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT", and the former was somehow a "repurposing" of the fictionless latter. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:24, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::Totally get the Steeljaw example—although it ''is'' crazy that we're currently disambiguating G1 wolf Steeljaw simply by [[Steel Jaw]]. You should post about the disambiguation tag policy change you suggested on Discord, I think a lot of people were thinking along similar lines there. Agree with your interpretation of the current policy as to which of the examples listed should be split and which shouldn't—although the more I think about the Primus Vanguard, the more I think those should technically be split too. While I guess the [[Time Warrior (AVP)|Time Warrior]]s are multiversal travellers like Drydock. RE: Chromhorn, I understand why it's technically different; I brought it up because I think it speaks to the tenor of ''Ask Vector Prime'' answers—in spirit, I think its aim was exactly the same as with the Mini-Con examples I've given.
::What do I mean by that? To match your Steeljaw example, from the opposite angle: say I'm your typical fan scrolling [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)]], and I click on, say, [[Dualor (DOTM)]], wondering if he's ever shown up in anything. In their current state, I get my answer immediately. With the proposed split for consistency, I instead get a page telling me that Dualor (DOTM) is a dinosaur Mini-Con from ''Dark of the Moon'', some info about the toy, ''maybe'' ending with an inscrutable note about how he was "repurposed" as an identical guy. Now, there's ''already'' an unrelated [[Dualor (Armada)]], so we'd need to make a disambiguation page. We can see this already by looking at [[Snow Cat (Universe)]], which is barren (the very scenario AVP so often tried to address!), and doesn't even admit to the existence of [[Snow Cat (BWU)]] aside from a general Snow Cat disambiguation tag. In some existing cases like [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], we've mirrored a toy writeup, which needs upkeep in parallel; in others, like Snow Cat, we're asking the user to visit the other page to read about the toy ''anyway''. To my mind, this is inarguably less accessible. I don't understand arguments made about accessibility here which are predicated on readers having learned editing policy to begin with, and I don't think this proposal would actually make it any harder to learn the system.
::I regret not listing out all the individual members of those Mini-Con teams above, to better communicate the sheer number of pages that would need to be made (and pages that would need to be renamed, in case of conflicts) to create this inconvenience in service of a rule we've already been ignoring without issue. Nobody wants to do this work, and I think it's less that no-one cares, and more that some people think it'd actually make the wiki worse, and the rest don't particularly think it'd make the wiki better.
::What about just making an exception for Mini-Cons/Micromasters? I've talked about ''Uprising'', but obviously the vast majority of cases that theoretically need splitting aren't from ''Uprising'' at all. Could probably even do a generic template like "X exists in multiple continuity families, and is a Micromaster/Maximal/Predacon in those without Mini-Cons". Thus your Steeljaws and Bisks and Overrides go unchanged, no problems or ambiguity there! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
:Once upon a time, I probably would have pushed for something like this, but where we are now: I am not a fan of any push towards treating something differently based on how "relevant" something is or not. It goes against the very spirit this wiki was founded on, because that is what was happening to the Wikipedia coverage of Transformers where they were just getting rid of things wholesale because of "relevancy." I can understand the basic point behind this, but I feel that doing so would set a bad precedent that could be exploited in the future.
:I'd be fine with splitting most of these out. I've said it before elsewhere but by and large a lot of the inconsistencies were largely the result of different contributors adding stuff or splitting stuff without a general consensus, and they haven't been cleaned up afterwards. Also, a minor note, but the Liftor thing was mainly cause no one noticed at the time until I wrote up about the profile years after the fact. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:26, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::If I gave the impression "relevancy" was the main thrust of my argument here, I didn't mean to! Like, it goes both ways—would we be merging because ''Uprising'' is so irrelevant that we shouldn't devote all these random stub pages to it, ''or'' are we merging because it's sufficiently relevant that we shouldn't be hiding that content in stub pages nobody visits? Either is true! I'm arguing for convenience and clarity. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: This definitely feels like the strongest argument to the merge in my mind. The wiki is no stranger to niche pages, pages for nameless, fictionless, toyless nonentities. But I believe these fictionless toys and toyless fiction which are really the same thing would be a richer niche page for the merges. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 20:36, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: I really think that once again, this overrates the number of people who would be confused by this, and underrates the number of people who would be able to figure out where to go if they wish to find the information. Like, I hate to do the whole "I was able to figure it out" thing but I was a small child with a single-digit age when I first discovered the wiki and I was able to figure out pretty quick why it was laid out the way it was. I'm not saying there's no room for improvement; I think there's a lot of cases in which the way we have things set up now is kind of ridiculous. But in this particular case, I don't really see how merging things would be any more convenient than just leaving them the way they are and splitting out the cases that we never got around to. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:52, 7 February 2023 (EST)

Just found some more pages that would need splitting under current policy: [[Crystal Widow]], [[Seawave]], [[Cradon]], [[Freefall (Kre-O)]], [[Liftoff]], and [[Epsilon Holdings]]. All due to ''Uprising'' and ''The Allspark Almanac''. Really hoping someone can propose a solution here that doesn't involve creating a billion pages and disambigs. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 09:24, 18 February 2023 (EST)
:We don't split businesses/locations/organizations, so Epsilon Holdings isn't one we need to consider. Kre-O doesn't really occupy a continuity family in our organization and I would just split the rest, especially Crystal Widow. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:28, 18 February 2023 (EST)

Noticed the ''[[Transformers: Earth Wars| Earth Wars]]'' stub templates on Mini-Con pages for [[Wheeljack Kunai]] and [[Bido]]. The game had previously added [[Gabu]], [[Zori]], [[Baru]], [[Bashbreaker]], [[Windstrike]], and [[Tricerashot]]. Following policy, these should ''all'' be split—see [[Giza (POTP)]] and [[Giza (Prime)]], although to be fair they're not the same animal at least. As always, I think the fiction for those toys should go on the pages for those toys. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 12:39, 17 March 2023 (EDT)

Just finished going through documenting the preliminary bios for the [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Predator Attack Team]], and [[Mini-Con Council of Sages]], from when the ''Classics'' Mini-Cons were still going to be released as ''Cybertron'' two-packs, and it occurs to me that if ''all'' of those guys end up getting duplicate pages, the Unicron Trilogy pages would be where that information should probably end up. Right now it's all a bit of a mess, as some of those characters have (Cybertron) pages via the Primus bonus-pack-in, some don't, and others had their names changed from their would've-been ''Cybertron'' incarnations anyway. I've generally tried to stick to linking to the existing pages rather than redlinking—naturally I remain convinced that it'd be for the best if we didn't distinguish between ''Classics'' and ''Cybertron'' at all in this case and just kept all the relevant information for each of those Mini-Cons on one page per; I think [[Liftor]] is proof that this is in fact perfectly fine and much, much less of a headache for readers. See whatever the hell is going on with the page for the [[Night Rescue Team]], which names the patrol car as "[[Strongarm (Classics)|Strongarm]]/[[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]]" as though that's something which makes any sense at all. Tangentially, I also reckon the material from these early bios (which evidently made it out via the official Hasbro website ''somehow'') should probably just be written up in fiction sections proper, along the lines of, say, cancelled Dreamwave issues...? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:03, 23 April 2023 (EDT)
:The Cybertron Primus pack-in guys had bios written by Sepelak and Troop (who also wrote the bios for the Classics guys) that deliberately made them different characters for the Club website with little in common besides their physical appearances. It's not a case of "old rules" at all, it was something specific done at the time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:28, 23 April 2023 (EDT)

==Wikia links still around?==
https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Smelting_pool&direction=prev&oldid=109505
Are other archived "intermediate / obsolete" edit pages still pointing to Wikia? Or have they been somehow neutralized? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:52, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
:Not exactly sure what you're asking? I mean, the link is literally part of the text in that edit, so it wouldn't be removed. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:25, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
::Is that page (and presumably any other intermediate edit page from those years) still directing search engines to Wikia? Some years ago it was seen as pretty urgent that every last such link be removed, regardless of location. Not "gone from current pages," gone from ''everything''. As I recall, there were even refs to Wikia pre-struck-out on pages so people could only see them in mid-edit, but they were still boosting Wikia's rankings, and an admin had to create a bot to scrape them out of everywhere. If they still persist on hundreds of intermediate edit pages from those years, should those pages be totally erased, as they would be when randos insert porn or hate speech here? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:10, 26 May 2023 (EDT)
:::Historic page revisions are not indexed by Google, so they won't boost Wikia rankings. Those links will be present on any revisions before March 2008, as those revisions are from a backup imported from when the site was on Wikia. We still do have some Wikia links on live pages ([[Miscolorings based on the Generation 1 cartoon]] is an example) but those links will be marked nofollow as all external links are, so they should, in theory, not be boosting Wikia's ranking either. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:04, 26 May 2023 (EDT)

== ROTB being a reboot - what should we do with that? ==

I don't necessarily hold an opinion on this issue, but according to an interview with the director of ROTB, Rise of the Beasts will be a reboot of the live-action movie franchise. Will this affect how existing articles are grouped and written? Or does the wiki just consider it a case of authorial intent? ([https://news.tfw2005.com/2023/05/27/transformers-rise-of-the-beasts-director-steven-caple-jr-confirms-rotb-set-in-a-rebooted-universe-484900 source]) [[User:Gigirassy|Gigirassy]] ([[User talk:Gigirassy|talk]]) 16:19, 27 May 2023 (EDT)
:The wiki is intentionally waiting for the movie's official release to make a stand on the matter. Regardless, even if the movie is a reboot it will not affect the wiki as much as you may be thinking it will; both movie series will simply be considered as two different continuities that are still part of the same continuity family overall (just like the multitude of G1 universes out there that are all in the same family). What may or may not happen is some characters may get splitted pages depending on if there's enough evidence for that, but for now all we can do is just wait and see. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:56, 27 May 2023 (EDT)

== Adaptation notes ==

Can we figure out a way to format this information that isn't an ugly and intrusive note that fucks up the formatting? Like, convert them into storylinks or references. Collapsible notes. Something. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:(also probably take a weed whacker to the insane number of images people try to stuff into those film sections but that's another discussion) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:09, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
::I second that. Though we would also have to find a place to put the extra information those notes sometimes provide about how the adaptation differs from the source material. Like how [[Optimus Prime (Movie)#Transformers film|Optimus Prime]]'s notes on the 07 movie mention he kills Barricade in the adaptations when that doesn't happen in the movie itself. Or the very recent example of how ROTB [[Wheeljack (ROTB)|Wheeljack]] appears [[Mission at the Museum|in a book based entirely on the half of the movie he wasn't supposed to appear in]]. So how will we deal with that? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:40, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Against this. When it comes to an informational wiki, utility should be a higher priority than aesthetic taste. Speaking of aesthetics, however… [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:We can be informative without haphazardly shoving "hey, here's some inconsequential adaptations you likely don't care about" into readers' faces. Not all information is created equal, as we've already established by hiding any VAs that the great majority of readers don't care about. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:41, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

I'd be against this. The notes make it clear that one thing is an adaptation of another, allow differences to be described succinctly without wholesale repetition of an entire story section, and I honestly think a mass of stoylyinks for every movie character in the first 3 Bay films after their write-up would be far more visually obtrusive and difficult to parse than the note that's already there, for example.[[User:AkibaSilver|AkibaSilver]] ([[User talk:AkibaSilver|talk]]) 22:31, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm gonna more or less agree with the above. Storylinks are ''absolutely'' a bad idea once you get beyond, like, two in a row. And I really don't feel like there's ever going to be enough adaptations of any one thing to justify a whole template, where "voice actors in a dozen languages" and "holy crap they redecoed/retooled/rereleased this toy THIS MANY TIMES" certainly can get hugely bulky. And honestly, if they're not a huge list, I like the easy discoverability of keeping them in a note below; hiding them whiffs of "we should de-prioritize the coloring books and not-current media on character pages" that we rejected from the get-go. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:56, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

== Images and formatting ==

Here’s something that baffles me; at least far back as the MP announcement of the Trainbots, there’s been a push by some to remove images from articles for reasons that mostly elude me. I agree that a lot of our older writeups have images that aren’t good, but what I don’t get is the removal of them from sections that only have one image. Sure, a lot of the time it’s for characters that have very minor roles in something, but I’ve always thought that McFeely’s way of making articles (by getting the best possible image of each character in every section whenever possible) is the gold standard for how we make articles. On a loosely related note; I’m not convinced by Sipher’s recent push to align images to the right; I think the alternating thing we usually have is much cleaner (aside from in toy sections). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:29, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
: Opening a section with a left-justified image almost invariably fucks up the normal "flow" of how your eyes move when you reach the end of a line: you move down and ''left'' to the next line. Most of the time, left-justified images at the top of the section push that next line of text to the ''right'' of the header. It may look "better" if you unfocus and just look at the page as a blur, but if you're actually ''reading'' the text, it's a subtle but very there stumbler. If it's a section where there's a "voice actors" bit or a note template ''above'' the image where the end of that is ''definitely'' going to end up beyond the rightmost border of the image, that's fair. ''Every'' image doesn't have to be on the right. Alternating is fine within longer sections. But opening with left should be used sparingly and judiciously. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

==Two things sandboxed a while ago maybe we might consider==
*[[User:M Sipher/Sandbox:ToysBullets]]
*[[User:M Sipher/sandbox:ToypageAltmodesAdded]]
I mean I'm not gonna lie, these are both in the "oh my grodd so many pages" realm, and worse, they're not something we can really get a bot to do. But, Iunno, something to consider.<br>
The insignia bullet point thing on individual character pages, only so many characters have toys across multiple factions (most would have G1/G2 variants), so this doesn't feel as "important" an addition, but, well. Could be useful. Adding altmodes to the toyline page listings, however, I think there's a decent case for, especially when dealing with obscure toy-only characters in lines loaded to the gills with toys. It'll certianly help the "man I remember I had this cool toy what was its name" searches. And it involves tweaking considerably fewer pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:09, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm in favor of the first from a readability standpoint. It just looks better. On the alt modes, I worry it might open the door to edit skirmishes on some of the more vague vehicle modes out there (thinking specifically of Devcon that just came out, or things that are just indeterminate like Cybertron Menasor or Protoform Optimus/Starscream), that just "Cybertronic car/jet/whatever" isn't a common term people outside the Wiki would really think to search, and how specific we'd need to get a la "truck" versus "longnose truck" versus "Peterbilt 379 truck". Hard to call, in my opinion.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 23:37, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
::The bullet points hit me a little weird at first but I could get used to them, I think it's a neat idea. And I can see the inclusion of alt modes in toy pages as something useful, though no doubt a lot of pages would have to be slightly rearranged to make room for them. Regardless, I'd gladly give a hand with some of the editing if either one gets approved. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 09:46, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
::: RE: altmodes on toyline pages... As far as "arguments" go, you get those ''anyway''. I think for these pages we can afford a bit of looseness ("red Lamborghini" for 1984 Sideswipe since there's a lot of sports cars (and two Lambos) in that line/assortment, "blue sports car" for Cyb Hot Shot since there are fewer "sports cars" in that line), giving enough for a quick ID'ing. Spacing... yeah, this will stretch the pages vertically a bit, but like, that's generally fine if the space has ''information'' in it. Plus it will likely mean we can add another pic to the right-hand side of many sections, letting us give a few more examples. And it'll beef up the absolutely anemic sections slightly. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 01:53, 29 June 2023 (EDT)
:So, anyone got any objections to these, other than "holy hell that's a lot of manual work"? If anything, it'd also be a good excuse to go in and find out what entries are in need of some sprucing up and getting to today's standards... properly sorting the features into cohesive paragraphs, moving release dates to bullet points, trimming excess or filling out light writeups, making sure links to other toys have the proper anchors, etc. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:32, 4 July 2023 (EDT)
::The faction symbols look neat, no issue there. ''Really'' dislike the alt-mode descriptions on the toyline pages; it's a huge amount of visual noise for very little informational gain, not even to mention the actual work involved. I honestly think they would be very error-prone as a rule, or at the very least lead to some extremely tiresome debates—for example, you've labelled Soundwave/Sideways as "Cybertronian" jets, but my understanding is that they're not Cybertronians at all...? Even until pretty recently, I often find myself clicking links on toy pages only to find that they've been broken by the epidemic of "/toys" splits (and then the subsequent merges now that that's being corrected!); so far as I'm concerned, if you're consistently able to click a link on a toyline page and immediately jump to a write-up with an actual image of the toy in question, that'd be far more useful than a brief indicator of alt-mode, especially considering most readers are going to know that Starscream probably turns into "a jet". Something else this has brought to mind for me, though—for the ''Cybertron'' toyline, could be nice to have extra faction bullets for the various Cyber Key types they came with! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:53, 6 July 2023 (EDT)
::: Late to the party, but I've seen some of the faction bullets have been implemented in some character articles and I really like how they look. I think it will also help in the long run with figures that are marketed as a certain faction on Hasbro's websites or packaging, but not on the toy itself or utilized in any fiction. Like, for example: ''Studio Series'' Sentinel Prime. His packaging features a Decepticon insignia, while his instructions feature an Autobot insignia, which means the toy is marketed as both factions, even if both insignia are absent on the toy itself. The alt-mode descriptors, on the other hand, are a no from me, better to leave those kinds of specifics to the toy write ups themselves, as some toy listings in toyline articles are already pretty cluttered as it is, due to all of the characters included in some sets. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:20, 5 August 2023 (EDT)

== Alternators/Binaltech headers on toy pages ==

It feels like something from the old days of the wiki that has become outdated by our modern standards. Binaltech is not its own toyline, it's just the Takara version of Alternators, as reflected by both lines [[Transformers: Alternators|sharing the same page]]. So I propose we stop using "Alternators/Binaltech" headers on toy pages. Keep "Binaltech" on characters that ''only'' have Takara toys and standardize to just "Alternators" on all pages with either only Hasbro toys or both Hasbro and Takara toys. To use similar examples, we only have "[[Fortress Maximus (RID)#Car Robots|Car Robots]]" and "[[Lockdown (RID)#Adventure|Adventure]]" headers on Takara-only toy pages, while all other pages have "Robots in Disguise (2001)" and "Robots in Disguise (2015)" regardless of if they have Takara toys or not. There's no "Robots in Disguise/Car Robots" or "Robots in Disguise/Adventure" headers. So can we please start using the same standard to Alternators? --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 14:58, 29 June 2023 (EDT)

== Energon Universe coverage ==

With Void Rivals #2 due out next week, I think we need to start a discussion about how much coverage we give non-TF issues in the Energon Universe. This isn't like IDW where the shared universe element came years later; we're starting out on the ground floor, with Transformers part of the universe from the very first released issue. It's going to be closely involved with all the comics going forward, so I think we need to figure out if we're going to cover everything, and if not, what qualifies for coverage. For example, it sounds like Energon is going to be a recurring element in both Void Rivals and G.I. Joe. Is that alone enough to qualify, or do there need to be actual Transformers characters? I think we need to start asking these sorts of questions so we can figure out the scope of our coverage. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:39, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I'm fine with covering everything. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 23:42, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I am also in favor of covering it all, the universe has established immediately that Transformers seem to be intrinsic to it, and this way we can keep all reading to one wiki. [[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 23:46, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
::Agreed. They are presenting it as a shared, intrinsically connected universe - and yeah it's called the Energon Universe so that's very clearly transformery to us unless energon moves on from here to be a generic hasbroverse term, which we doubt. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:52, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:Yeah. I think "cover everything" is the best approach to begin with, and then if we want to discuss splitting things off at a later date we can do that. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 00:00, 11 July 2023 (EDT)
:Nothing against a "cover everything" either. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 00:53, 12 July 2023 (EDT)

==Stock image sizes==
Okay, I wanted to bring this up before going on a revertathon but... is there ANY need for HD stock imagery here? Frankly, 4000x2000 images at nearly a meg each seems like absolute overkill and just adding incrementally to server load (good god various Optimuses' toy pages are bad enough as it is, we prolly shouldn't be doing things to make that worse). We just need images big enough to be clear, we're not here to archive print-quality images. I've been sticking to a general 600px vertical with the odd 700px for bigger/more involved toys when doing pics, and like, that sure seems more than fine. Once you hit 1000px it feels real excessive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:01, 3 August 2023 (EDT)

== Video game cameos ==

{{collist|2|
*[[Kunai]]
*[[Sawtooth (G1)]]
*[[Tricerashot (G1)]]
*[[Windstrike (G1)]]
*[[Zori (G1)]]
*[[Bashbreaker (G1)]]
*[[Baru (G1)]]
*[[Bido (G1)]]
*[[Gabu (G1)]]}}

I'm not seeing the point in being persnickety about continuity families when it comes to mobile game cameos, especially when said game already has established characters from other continuity families. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:52, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:If you bothered to do some due diligence, you would know these guys are selectable for individual play, not "cameos". As long as our continuity family policy remains in place, they merit pages just as ''Prime'' Knock Out's G1 transplant does. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:56, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
::Dude, they're support units without any real role in the story (which, again, includes multiversal travelers already). That's cameo level to me. It's not comparable to Knock Out. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:04, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:::Late, but they're definitely not cameos. The COMBAT bots frequently have their own dialogue and play a part in the event storylines. They're probably ''exactly'' the same situation as Knock Out, who so far as I can tell was introduced without any fanfare as to whether he's a native to the ''Earth Wars'' universe or a dimension-hopper. The same even appears true of "Breakdown Prime"! In the past, when characters from other continuities have shown up, there's always been lots of hullabaloo in the dialogues explaining where they've come from. It's silly to make definitive claims one way or another until we successfully scrape the scripts from the last couple of years and can read everything, so under current wiki policy unless someone can produce dialogues where Windstrike says "whoa, this Earth Wars universe is crazy, not at all like my home reality!" we just have to assume they're G1 versions of those characters and give them separate pages. Personally, I would actually ''agree'' that it's really silly to have created all of these tiny stub pages for these so-called "continuity transplants", and even brought up the fact earlier on the Portal that nobody had seemed to consider it problematic when they were all just lumped in on the Aligned pages, but if this is how it's gotta be then someone who feels strongly about the split oughta commit to having the coverage on the G1 pages, not the Aligned pages, and disambiguate between them properly. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:14, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Subcategory trimming ==

Looking at some of our character categories, such as the subcats under [[:Category:Generation 1 Autobots]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Decepticons]], I'm starting to wonder if all of these are strictly necessary. I think there's merit to having categories for whole franchises, but I'm unsure whether we necessarily need to add more categories for inclusion in specific media or toylines, like "G1 cartoon Autobots" or "G1 toy Decepticons"; after a while, it starts to feel a little excessive and perhaps even counterproductive. Thoughts? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:44, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:On the one hand, with "G1" being basically Brobdingnagian in scope, I think media/toyline subcategorization is definitely important... but I'm unsold in either direction on if the Autobot/Decep split in said subcats are necessary. I ''will'' put forward the argument ''for'' the subcategorization that categories are a very helpful method of quick-checking "who's in group x", especially with something as massive as "the Marvel comics cast". Looking for obscure comic Decepticons to maybe feature in something is a lot easier when you don't have to fish through a list that also includes every obscure comic-only Autobot. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:: I"m good for keeping "Generation 1 cartoon" and "Marvel comic" categories the way we do with Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 characters (although I think that the Marvel category should be merged with the preexisting [[:Category:Regeneration One Decepticons]] into a single "Marvel Comics continuity" category). "Generation 1 toy" seems... less necessary to me. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:31, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
::: The [[:Category:Generation 1 Seekers]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Aerialbots]] categories are good and useful categories to me, as the subgroup is the main thing, in these cases (IMO), and the subgroups have been divided on the franchise/continuity-family level.--[[User:Karanseraph|Karanseraph]] ([[User talk:Karanseraph|talk]]) 12:25, 25 August 2023 (EDT)
I would definitely dump the Regeneration One categories. It's just a miniseries, and not a very impactful one at that. Plus, 99% of those characters are already in Marvel G1 anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:30, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Wiki Format ==

I have a question regarding the set-up of this site. It is one of the only ones I've seen not using fandom and has a nice set up. The Gundam fandom users are talking about maybe moving off of fandom, and this site has shown promising to be a potential new site if a similar format can be created but changed to be Gundam style. I know of someone who "runs" the wiki, and would like to possibly get in contact with them to look at this and see if its plausible replacement for that. If anyone can do something like that, or if it's not possible to use this format like that, then please lmk, thnx! (PS: I'm on the discord, GrootimusPrime, if that would be easier contact as that's also how I'll probably get the Gundam wiki spokesperson to see.) [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 11:29, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
:The skin we use is just one of the standard skins that comes with Mediawiki (Monobook) with some styling applied. If they have someone who is expert at tweaking stylesheets, they should be fine doing that, though there are other standard skins they could also look at tweaking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:05, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
::Alright thanks, Ill look into that and relay to Iserlohn. Thanks! [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]])
What hosting service is used? While I'm not quite sure of preferences of admin, I'm just looking into cheaper hosts that can run this wiki to be good and useable for all editors, as they span most of the world, centering around Asia and America. (PS. If anyone knows Fandom gund-wiki users, please keep this on the low-down, we are attempting to keep this relatively low-key as there has been problems between ours and their teams. Thanks.) [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:55, 12 September 2023 (EDT)
:We're hosted by Linode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:04, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

== Include these? ==

I feel like on fiction related pages, we should include major event sections (so readers don't have to spend 10h scouring the page for info). And maybe we also should indicate some characters' debut (and also indicate when it is the first time a char appears on that continuity, like hot rod debuting in the movie, then state which ep he debuted in the show proper, and so on so forth).[[User:Poliwag06|Poliwag06]] ([[User talk:Poliwag06|talk]]) 19:26, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
:I feel like this would be more character based, as there are subcategories, mostly of continuities and such, but then major events would typically be character based, as outside of debuts, most characters major events are different than others and arent shared.[[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 10:15, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

== Gundam ==
So I've noticed a few references to Gundam here, and a few important people mentioned regarding it, but the links all go to the wiki page which isn't really that helpful, so I was wondering if I could possibly make a new page for it similar to like the go-bots where it gives a gist of it and directs to mentions of people related to it in here? [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:26, 21 September 2023 (EDT)
:No. Wiki pages are only made for other properties when they cross over ''directly'' with Transformers. Just sharing tropes or staff isn't enough. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 09:33, 21 September 2023 (EDT)
::Then second question, where does one email Hasbro to angrily complain about the fact there hasn't been a crossover on the most crossover-able series ever. Literally they are perfect for each other, and if Gundam can crossover with hello kitty I think tformers would be good.[[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:37, 21 September 2023 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2023-09-21T13:26:39Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Gundam */ new section

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. For less wide-reaching subjects, either use articles' individual talk pages or [https://discord.gg/tfwiki our Discord server].

Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Site Logo revamp ==

Up until now, our rotating logo on the main page tends to have a batch of logos pointing to pages from the most recent franchises and series, plus a few from older franchises that we forgot or didn't bother to remove. I'd like to rework this system a bit to have a more even balance franchise-wise. I think we should have one character for every franchise that has had a cartoon or movie (including the JG1 shows), plus one from each of the major English-language comic runs (Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 at the bare minimum). This would be a good way to demonstrate the breadth of the franchise scope of the wiki, and help drive new readers towards legacy content. (Of course, we'd still have a few extra banners based on whatever is currently running for the "Hey, I know that guy!" factor. Would love to get some thoughts on this, and potentially character suggestions for each franchise. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:59, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:I think this is a great idea! Though, I'm unsure on which characters from each show would be good to use. Like, would we go most popular/memorable characters or just some really random left field obscurities like G1 Skids who appeared in only two episodes of ''The Transformers'', just to get some more eyes on character articles from franchises newer fans may not be fully aware of? Also, would Japanese-exclusive shows include ''Go!'', ''Q-Transformers'' and ''Robotmasters''? If so, maybe even an image from ''Portal'' (the Russian show) would be worthwhile too. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:47, 18 December 2021 (EST)
::Obscure/minor stuff risks just being the GO! Boxes again, and we already have those. For the big logo, best to go with majorish characters from majorish media. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 07:19, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:This sounds like a great idea. We could break it down like this:
G1 Seasons 1 and 2 - Optimus Prime,
TFTM/G1 Seasons 3 and 4 - Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime,
G1 Marvel - Ratchet,
Headmasters - Fort Max,
Masterforce - Minerva,
Victory - Star Saber,
Idk if we would do Zone or any of the Japanese G1 stories that came after,
Beast Wars - Megatron,
Beast Wars II - Lio Convoy,
Beast Wars Neo - Magmatron,
RID/Car Robots - Side Burn,
I've never read Dreamwave so I don't know a good character that represents it,
Unicron Trilogy - Hot Shot,
IDW could be broken into a few character reps because of how long it went on,
IDW Furman Era - IDW Bumblebee,
IDW Post Furman - IDW Galvatron,
IDW MTMTE/LL - Nautica,
IDW RID/OP - IDW Optimus Prime,
Animated - Bulkhead,
Movies - Bumblebee,
WFC Games - Bruticus,
Prime - Starscream,
RID15 - Strongarm,
Cyberverse - Windblade,
WFC Trilogy - G1 Megatron,
And then we can have a few slots open for characters from the latest shows/movies. This list would give new readers an idea on how big the franchise truly is and how diverse the characters are. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Certainly if anyone's gonna represent CR/RiD'01, it's gonna be Sky-Byte, the breakout star of the show, and not Side Burn, the Autobot womanizer. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:26, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Funilly enough I meant to put him there lol. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 20:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Dreamwave, I'd pick War Within Grimlock. Certainly Shockwave should be part of 2005 IDW since he's responsible for the whole sha-bang.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] ([[User talk:MistaTee|talk]]) 18:40, 5 January 2022 (EST)

== Splitting Cloud characters ==

So now we have some sorta adequate translations, I'm being increasingly convinced that merging them just on the basis of AVP was a mistake and that the Cloud characters should be split out for simplicity and ease of explanation. Notably, the central conceit is far more similar to TransTech than G1—and more different to G1 than Cyberverse, for instance. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:44, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I was against it then and I'm against it now. They're nothing like the TransTech; they are practically nigh identical to the G1 guys, there's a war going on in their universe, and the "central conceit" of them being multiversal guardians is more akin to Alternity than it is to TransTech, who for the majority of their fiction were at most passive observers. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I am declining to weigh in personally until I finish first pass translations but please at least pretend to look over the translated material before repeating the same arguments. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:19, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::I have looked over it. Nothing is convincing me that it's all that separate from G1 stuff. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 12:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::"War going on" describes most of Transformer fiction. What makes Cyberverse "not G1", but Cloud G1, other than convenience for us editors? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:02, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::: As far as I can tell, there is no basic divergence, aside from Grimlock's origins, from the Cloud characters to the G1 counterparts. I could point to a fair few examples on the side of Cyberverse that rank higher than that (Grimlock's presenations, the origins of the Quintessons and Sharkticons, Skywarp, Acid Storm, etc etc.) [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:23, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::We can be here all day debating over character minutiae, but the point is that Cyberverse ultimately doesn't diverge that much from G1 in its general premise as opposed to Cloud. G1 is bloated enough as it is; it doesn't hurt to take out the one thing that doesn't really fit in and make it its own thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::: Well that just comes right back to my question: what actually makes Cloud World's core conceit any different from G1 beyond the fact that they have technology that allows them dimensional travel? Because if it is just that, I simply do not believe that is enough to justify a split for characters who are almost all made to look like and have the same personality as the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:51, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I agree for the sake of wiki presentation. *Cloud* is more like *TransTech* than it is like *Alternity*. *Cloud* characters got to travel to both the G1 and MD worlds as equally separate destinations. TakaraTomy used the *Generations War for Cybertron* moulds as the *United* series, which is G1 and not Aligned by our classification. *Cloud* recycling unused *Generations Fall of Cybertron* toys in a non-Aligned setting strikes me as more evidence that we can allow *Cloud* to live on its own rather than as another G1 setting. And *Cloud* was chosen by e-HOBBY over the competing proposal *Prime Shattered Glass* which would also have been on separate wiki pages despite employing purely redeco mould choiceis. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:08, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I'm not convinced by the idea that them saying "G1 World" is an indicator of separateness when there is also designations for "BW Spacetime" and "MF Spacetime." Brawn is depicted as practically identical in appearance to G1 Brawn before being upgraded. As for the Prime Shattered Glass choice, I think it's pretty obvious why that would be completely separate from this particular issue. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:25, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::The only reason Brawn is shown as the G1 body is if you take consideration that all Cloud members are drawn according to the latest toy or model available... he got no real toy before that, the only options were either G1 Sunbow, G1 toy or the tiny Universe 2.0 Legends. Now if you remove their appearance and focus on the story, Cloud is still more akin to Transtech than Alternity, Deadlock for example even got to visit the Legends World, a Aligned world (possibly the Adventure toyline) and the Ehobby spin-off dimension (now called Precursor World) -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 17:55, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::Yes, I am aware of how Cloud repurposings work. Nothing prevents one G1 universe from visiting another. And aside from that, Japan has had barely any non-JG1 cartoon related G1 fiction; of course Cloud World, which isn't directly JG1 related, would be indicated as different; that doesn't mean that it's not able to be categorized as G1. If it were an American storyline, where we have always had multiple G1 storylines, I feel that this would not nearly be as much of a point of contention. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I'm in favor of splitting Cloud from G1. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 19:32, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I haven't read any of the Cloud fiction myself, but I know that if our translation team collectively agrees on something based on the material available, then that's more than enough convincing for me to agree with them also. In other words, I agree with a split. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:52, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I'd vastly prefer if we could get someone like McFeely to weigh in on this. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:56, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::i'm in favour of the split. The cloud people have enough characteristics to distonguist them from theur jg1 counterpatts.--[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 20:14, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::Alright, seriously, what characteristics are there actually to distinguish them from G1? Because nobody has been able to give me a concrete example so far. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::::dinobot, heavy usage of aligned designs, hellwarp --[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 21:36, 28 December 2021 (EST)
Looks like Escargon is the only voice against the split thus far. Still, I suggest the discussion should remain open longer than usual, out of courtesy for people not checking the wiki as regularly given the holiday season. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:47, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:As the translations are still ongoing, I think the most we can suggest at this time is a note regarding its a classification as a Primax setting by AVP. As more information comes to light I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it was a decision made on shaky logic. Unlike the Alternity there doesn't seem to be any evidence of these guys being derived in-universe from G1 guys. And as fiction, it's about a bunch of super advanced parallel universe monitor guys who regularly travel to other universes. If it's literally just "the cast is mostly recolours of toys with G1 fiction" then maybe we need to start talking about listing the War for Cybertron games as G1 too. [[User:Star Spangled Sam|Star Spangled Sam]] ([[User talk:Star Spangled Sam|talk]]) 01:44, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::What exactly is super-advanced about them beyond SARA, who, as far as I can tell, is a gift from some being and not even their own creation? Because otherwise, they seem to be basic Transformers. Not a single person has been able to tell me that so far, and I'd be far more willing to listen if someone would just spell out what exactly makes them so distinct that means they can't be G1. It's not about in-universe stuff, because for all intents and purposes, the characters themselves are nigh-identical to the Generation 1 characters; you look at Cloud Megatron or Cloud Rodimus and it is obvious that, irregardless of whatever the fiction might say, they are being sold as new versions of the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 04:29, 29 December 2021 (EST)
:::By the same logic, then why not put the FOC and WFC games under the G1 banner since it heavly takes inspirations from it, same settings (war on cybertron, the resources are becoming low, escaping to another world), closest designs to G1.. hell they were more marketed towards G1 than the Movies and Prime in mind (let's face it.. that's what Hasbro always does).. but the further Hasbro tied them to Aligned and they became their own thing.. Cloud is about that, maybe marketed as G1 at first but they became their own thing at the end -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 13:20, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::::The WFC games are their own case that, despite what you say, were always clearly a part of Hasbro's ideas for the Aligned continuity, which is something that I'm not going to bother going into here. Nothing about Cloud registers to me as being somehow so separate that it requires us splitting off things into their own pages. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:24, 29 December 2021 (EST)
Bumping for more opinions. If there's no overall opposition to it by Friday or so, I'll start splitting. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:07, 4 January 2022 (EST)
:The Cloud fiction prominently features the Cloud characters interacting with their own G1 counterparts. If nothing else, it should be split on same basis as [[Galvatron II]]. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:50, 4 January 2022 (EST)
::We've seen that with other fiction. I'm not sure why it would justify them having their whole separate pages (Galvatron II is a unique case). If that's what it takes though to not go through some inane total split, though, then fine, whatever. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:If there is to be movement on this in the immediate future I suppose I should go ahead and weigh in. As the one doing the translation I broadly agree with Riptide. While I am unmoved by philosophical discussions on what constitutes "G1-ness" or "Transtech-ness," I believe it is important to return to our guiding principle of the end user experience. Given the already convoluted nature of the material as well as the cast's consistent interaction with both various Generation 1 continuities in general and their own incarnations in specific, I believe it will be in the best interests of intelligibility for the reader to split out Cloud from Generation 1. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:25, 5 January 2022 (EST)

We are not going to pretend that these are completely separate from the Generation 1 characters. Put up a suite or a "see [X] article for more information" because it is completely ridiculous to pretend that Cloud is it's own little continuity. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:38, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I disagree. Cloud should be split off entirely. So let's have an official vote and resolve this. I say '''Split'''. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:28, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::The articles have already been split. You'll forgive me if I don't show confidence in the decision from people who blew me off when I pointed out their original reason for splitting was incorrect (that supposedly the Almanac had come out before Cloud was truly explained, but in fact it had come after almost all of it had been published). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:35, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::This discussion has been open for twelve days. An unofficial tally shows at least 7-to-1 in favor of splitting. No one else has openly agreed with your position. Given that, and that Saix announced days in advance he would start splitting if there was no further discussion, it wasn't unreasonable for him to begin. But maybe there's a different split of opinions on the Discord or wherever, so it's certainly appropriate to ask for an official vote. Beyond that...the decision is just not up to you alone. The point of democracy is for all voices to be heard, not to leave every voice feeling satisfied with the outcome. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:08, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::I have no idea what's going on in the Discord server; I'm barred from it. I certainly hope there's not more discussion going on over there, because I was told that there would be a push to have these sorts of big discussions to be on the wiki. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:42, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::With all due respect: You need to stop putting so much emphasis on the in-universe designation, which AVP itself pointed out was ultimately arbitrary. I understand that AVP and the Almanacs are important to you, but Jim is not infallible, and while I'm sure he had good reasons for calling it "Primax" that's ultimately just ''his opinion''. Cloud being "its own thing" isn't some essential property; it's a matter of how to organise the wiki in order to make the fiction clear. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I also vote '''Split''' if only because of how better translations now has pointed out various past errors/assumptions/presumptions that needed correcting, and thus updating is needed so as to make things easier to categorize and organize here. Any wiki really worth their salt and wanting to do proper service to their respective franchises' fandoms would do the same. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 14:43, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::I ''still'' haven't got an answer for what makes Cloud so different that makes it ''need'' to be split. If there were a crossover between say, Marvel and Sunbow, nobody in their right mind we should completely separate, say, Huffer from Huffer. I'm willing to admit that I might just be missing something, but nothing in the stories themselves, as far as I can see, suggests it, beyond the aforementioned Cloud World classification, which for me is not enough of a justification. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:33, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::Neither Marvel nor Sunbow consists primarily of crossovers with another G1 continuity. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:20, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::If that's the main avenue of justification then frankly I don't think I'm ever going to agree with that line of reasoning, but I can clearly see I'm outvoted on this. I wish there would have been more people asked before the split was done, though, because I can see that this could very easily end up being another whole "retitling things to FSRLF" situation. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:00, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::We functionally split out Marvel and Sunbow versions for a lot of characters anyway. We're at the point where we draw lines based on how easy/hard it is for the information to be conveyed, not whether it's G1 enough or not. We think Cloud, as its own fullblown storyline/premise, falls on the side of "it's easier to read and parse it if they get their own shebang" instead of burying them in overlong G1 articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:11, 8 January 2022 (EST)

I'm not gonna argue further on this because I recognize it's a losing battle, but I think that the line of thought of "this one bit of media shouldn't be kept in an article because it won't get out there otherwise" sets a bad precedent that could easily be misused in the future. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:39, 8 January 2022 (EST)

Should the Cloud toys also be removed from the G1 character's pages? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 09:21, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:Yeah no, It vould be too convoluted, example look at the redirections [[Transformers_Cloud#Toys|there]]... where should each toy be redirected?? + the fiction regarding said toys has their own page now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 10:58, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::...What on earth are you talking about? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:16, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::Srry I misread his question.. I thought he meant "added" not "removed" from the G1 pages...
:Not entirely certain what you're asking, but the eight toys in the Cloud toyline (plus Deadlock) have already been moved to the Cloud pages in conjunction with the fiction, as they solely represent Cloud characters. The remaining Cloud characters repurpose existing toys. The writeups for those toys remain on the original pages with duplicates on the repurpose pages, as is standard practice. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:54, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::I mean, for example, [[Blaster_(G1)/toys#Generations|G1 Blaster's toy page]] has FOC Blaster on it, due to FOC Blaster being repurposed as Cloud Blaster. Should that repurposing be removed from G1 Blaster's page, since Cloud Blaster isn't considered to be G1 Blaster anymore? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:34, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::I believe yeah, the splitting between G1 and Cloud was recent (done last month) so there's still leftover traces on the wiki, if you can take your time to remove them why not -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 16:44, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::::Ok, good. I just wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 17:13, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::::Oh! Yes those should go, good eye! -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 10:52, 18 February 2022 (EST)

==Split Movie Character Toy lists?==
Just as what happened with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Megatron (G1)/toys]], I suggest we split certain Movie toy pages such as [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys]] as both pages have become excessively bloated. I suggest we separate them by having the original Bay film toylines (07, ROFT, DOTM, AOE, TLK, and any pre SS sub lines) have their own page and starting a new one that Contains SS, BB, and the upcoming ROTB toylines, alongside any future movie toylines until the new page itself becomes heavily bloated [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Sorry for being this late but given that ROTB toys are apparently coming this spring, I suggest you split like one part contains all 5 movies while the other starts with SS and BB until now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 15:26, 22 January 2022 (EST)

== Multi-part comic stories ==

For old Marvel UK multi-part stories like [[Target: 2006]] or [[Time Wars]], we put the whole thing under a single article, but for modern-day ones like each storyline in [[Transformers (2019 comic)]] we have a separate article for each issue. Is there a good reason for the discrepancy, or are the old ones just an artefact of a time in the wiki's history that didn't follow our current standards? --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 09:36, 22 January 2022 (EST)
:The thing with that is that it's a result of how the UK comic was written; there'd be about 8 or so pages per issue, meaning that we'd have a lot of little articles that are easier just grouped together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:16, 22 January 2022 (EST)
::Makes sense, although that's essentially what we have for [[The Transformers: Autocracy]] et al., which are also 8 pages per issue. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 15:38, 23 January 2022 (EST)
:::The difference with Autocracy lies mostly in that pretty much all of those issues have a beginning and end, and also have different titles. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:47, 23 January 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I always thought our headings on the Marvel UK story pages ''were'' the issue titles. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 01:21, 24 January 2022 (EST)

== Composite characters and page transclusion ==

This is something I've had the idea about for a while, but I've finally had a look at how the markup for it works and have come up with a proposal. The pages for [[Greatshot]] and [[Sixshot (G1)]] contain an entirely duplicated section set around the ''Victory'' cartoon owing to a retcon that occurred in the much later Legends manga. This is not an ideal solution because, among other reasons, any edits to Greatshot's cartoon section necessitates making the same edit to Sixshot's section.

Over in my sandbox, I've whipped up the page [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test]], containing only the events that happened to both Greatshot and the retconned Sixshot. By inserting <nowiki>{{:User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test}}</nowiki> into the relevant parts of Greatshot and Sixshot's pages (also sandboxed [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot|here]] and [[User:TheLastGherkin/Sixshot|here]]), the same information is automatically transcluded. And clicking "Edit" on, for example, the Legends manga section on Sixshot's page automatically redirects the user to editing that portion of Greatshot-test, thus updating all three pages at once.

If we go forward with this, I can see it being used for other characters in similar situations, like BWU [[Wolfang (Maximal)#Beast Wars: Uprising|Wolfang]], or Unite Warriors [[Roller (IDW)#Unite Warriors|Roller]], or putting the lion's share (pun intended) of [[Victory Leo]]'s fictional appearances back onto Victory Leo's page. With refinements, like say a <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> explanation for what each subpage is for the layperson ("This page covers the events of the Japanese Generation 1 continuity, where Greatshot and Sixshot are the same individual...") and maybe a [[:Category:Transcluded pages]], I could see this really working, and it could probably be bent into shape for repurposed toys as well. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 12:48, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:If we cannot avoid this sort of duplicated information entirely, this does seem like a pretty ideal solve to mitigate the constant peril of copy editing flubs maintaining multiple copies of one write-up entails. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:56, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Is there any way to get rid of the "This section is transcluded from another page. To edit it, please edit the transcluded page." notice? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:::There is! I just put that there manually while experimenting and also to make clear where the transcluded section is. In practice, since clicking "Edit" on a transcluded section takes you to the source page, a notice like that can be relegated to a commented-out note for editors who click to Edit the entire page (or a larger section). [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 16:16, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I thought it was automatic software stuff. Whoops, never mind. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:22, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Also, this works for fiction, but I see it running into issues when it comes to toys. (Thinking of Sixshot/Greatshot, Sixshot always gets toys first with Greatshot as the retool later in the same line.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:14, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:I've made some tweaks to my sandboxes, including standardising the transcluded page. Are there any objections before I start implementing this (in fiction sections)? [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 07:10, 12 February 2022 (EST)
::I sense that there could be an issue in the future where, for whatever reason, these sorts of characters diverge back into separate ones, whether it be through alternate continuities or whatever. Also, in the case of Greatshot, I feel like at the very beginning of his entry, there has to be something different to set up the Sixshot retcon, and just having the same opening text doesn't do that. 08:57, 12 February 2022 (EST)
:::His toy bio that mentions Sixshot as a separate person could go there. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:21, 16 February 2022 (EST)
:This could also be applied to Primus and Vector Sigma for their 3H comics sections since they are one and the same in that continuity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 26 February 2022 (EST)

== What makes a franchise? Or, does "Precursor World" exist? ==

So, browsing around the wiki, as one does, and came across this: [[Precursor World continuity|Precursor World (franchise)]]

Now, I'm not as well-versed in the Legends + Selects comics, so maybe this is incorrect, but to the best of my understanding, the branding "Precursor World" doesn't exist — this story was told across Generations Selects and Legends, and no toy or story was ever released branded as "Precursor World". It doesn't seem like the name even existed until pretty recently.

This...isn't a franchise, right? It's a long-running story told across various medium, but it's not a franchise, and calling it such implies something that isn't true.

Particularly, the idea that there is a "toyline" seems a bit of a stretch. There are only three listed "official" toys, but none of them were released under the "Precursor World" branding (which near as I can tell does not exist) and the list of "repurposings" seems almost entirely just "this toy/characters showed up in this story" which doesn't seem like anything's been repurposed to me. The IDW comics used a bunch of existing/prior toys, but that doesn't create a toyline of that comic series.

Am I off base here? --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:16, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:Okay there's a lot to unpack here but to begin with every single one of those toys is being repurposed as a separate object/character in a separate setting a la, for example, [[Green Tender Convoy]] and the [[Matrix Buster|Red Matrix]]. Most of the unnamed crowdfillers are minimized to footnotes on existing articles to avoid generating a bazillion stubs. The closest analogue I can give you is the [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|toyline]] for the original ''Timelines'' iteration of Shattered Glass. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:35, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I'll grant that those indeed seem to be repurposings, but the vast majority of toys on this list merely link to the toy entry for the toy on the regular character's page. I don't think having a list of members of these groups is bad (it's good!) but I don't think this is a toyline. Again, crucially, Shattered Glass has a brand, with the official toys released under that brand, whereas precursor world does not. IDW repurposed WfC/FoC/aligned toys as G1 characters, but this didn't create a virtual toyline associated with that comic. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:46, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:::Arguably Shattered Glass toys weren't really released under their own brand either until the recent Hasbro Pulse stuff, until then the figures were all just released under the ''Timelines'' banner or whatever else Fun Pub used at the time - the idea of a singular "Shattered Glass toyline" was just as much of a constructed idea until like a year ago. I can't say "franchise" and "toyline" ''aren't'' slightly more non-literal labels than usual in this context, but I do think there's value in having the info collated like this, and I can't think of ''better'' labels that aren't something stupid like "(meta franchise)". [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:57, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::::To be honest, I'm inclined to agree re: Shattered Glass, and would not be opposed to restructuring the toyline page to delineate between the "Shatted Glass Collection" and "Shattered Glass toys released via Timelines" or something. Shattered Glass does, however, have a leg up on Precursor World given that every official SG toy was branded as "Shattered Glass" in some way, though perhaps not as a "franchise". The box set is called Shattered Glass, and every official toy was called "Shattered Glass". There's some nuance there, of course, as arguably those are part of the character's names ala "Prime Universe Bulkhead" is still a Legacy toy, not a Prime toy, but I'd be happy to have a debate around the best way to frame Shattered Glass stuff given those discrepancies. Allll that said, Shattered Glass is today a franchise, but there have been zero anythings released with Precursor World branding or labeling. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 13:06, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I don't think the page should be removed or even severely modified, but I do think the terminology is flawed. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 16:02, 3 March 2022 (EST)
Precursor World is definitely not a "franchise" and should not have that label. The model to look at here is the [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] article, which gives an overview of the thing, lists it's stories and toys, but does not use the "franchise" label, and doesn't ''need'' to use it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 15:07, 3 March 2022 (EST)

Yeah, no, this is not a "franchise", and the page should not be labeled as such. It is a ''setting''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:I like the solution that AzimuthAcolyte gave on Discord: move "Precursor World (franchise)" to "Precursor World continuity" (with all uses of the word "franchise" changed to "continuity") and "Precursor World (toyline)" to "List of Precursor World toys". Simple and elegant. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:55, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Seconded.[[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:::That seems reasonable to me. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::::I'm for that. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::That's fair. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:59, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Works for me, somewhat obviously! If there are no major objections over the next day or two I'll get those moved over. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:48, 4 March 2022 (EST)
::Ohhh, That works -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 18:19, 4 March 2022 (EST)
Alrighty as it's been a day or so with no objections I am proceeding with the moves away from (franchise) and (toyline). --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:06, 5 March 2022 (EST)

== Episode Order ==
It's come to my attention that all cartoons have been listed in production order '''except''' Beast Wars, RID01, RB, and RBA. While I understand production order is not available for the latter two I suggest we change the first two for consistency's sake - Unless I'm wrong and they are ''not'' all in production order. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:48, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:We're not touching Beast Wars. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
::Beast Wars and RiD'01 not being in production order are accepted exceptions to the norm. We leave them as they are for reasons specific to each. But as for RB and RBA, we do have an idea of the production orders for each, but we instead use a weird mixture of production order and airing order that is consistent with no other series we cover. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 13:53, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:OK quick correction to myself, turns out that it's all supposed to be chronological order; That just happens to be production order for everything but those four. Sorry! [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 14:09, 16 March 2022 (EDT)

==Help with statues / figurines==
I wrote up many of the [[Super7#Transformers ULTIMATES!|ULTIMATES!]] entries, simply because no one else had. I don't actually care about that sort of merch and it ended up being me paraphrasing from press releases and copying their pics. Just today I learned there are 3 waves of TF [[Minimates]] that have no coverage here at all. It definitely seems like a lot of high-end statues are falling through the cracks as well. Is there someone who is willing to make that stuff more of a project? If not, could we perhaps put out a call for submissions on our Twitter feed? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:47, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I fear this is just... going to continue to be an Issue. The wiki is a labor of love, and the brand is at a point where there's a lot of stuff out there... well, that a lot of people probably aren't gonna love. Hasbro's moichandized the everloving HELL out of TF over the years, with more and more niche "G1" stuff that seemingly would never appeal to people for whom G1 is the big center of their fandom. I mean I just found some Micro Figures merch at a Big Lots, I've never seen these before, and I don't know offhand if they're on the wiki. They're kind of a nothing. It's hard to keep up. Same for stuff like phone games.<br>
:I don't know if there's an actual solution. ''Someone'' certainly needs to step up, but I kinda got my plate overflowing with my own pet (ha ha) niche chunk of TF history to exhaustively document, never mind dealing with stuff I am almost aggressively disinterested in. (Seriously what little Minimates experience I have left me with a worse impression of them than I already had from their hideous aesthetic alone.) Asking Twitter for people more well-versed in this stuff might could help for phone games, but... IS there anyone into Minimates as a whole Brand and not just in a "I get the licenses I like" sense to fill in gaps? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:20, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::Once I had composed the thought "Hey, it's bad that there are a lot of Minimates out with us not covering them at all," it was too late, and I just had to burn 40 minutes on some cut-and-paste writups for the entire series. That's one "solution," I guess, but even ''my'' obsessive-compulsiveness can only go so far. Editing this site really should not feel like a job... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:18, 22 March 2022 (EDT)

==Implementing galleries==
I propose making galleries on character pages a wiki standard. The current mainpic + show screenshots format doesn't cover images like character models (Unless used as a mainpic), concept art, appearances in posters or toy murals, comic book covers, etc.
Other wikis have successfully implemented galleries, I think the Hololive Wiki galleries in particular work well as an example https://hololive.wiki/wiki/Tokino_Sora#Media.
This gallery header covers character models and has suites for concept art and even character uses in collaborative merch.[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:27, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Seconded. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:30, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I would say some version of this concept for a section has merit, if nothing else as a solve for major characters with several prominent character models, perhaps as a fairly unobtrusive method of documenting alt modes, etc etc. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:38, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::I'm for this. As a good example, the BotBots characters all look to have been radically redesigned for the show. By default the current standard is to keep the original stock art look will appear as the mainpic each page. Having a gallery option would be a good way to show both versions. [[User:ParadoxFactor|ParadoxFactor]] ([[User talk:ParadoxFactor|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Oppose. There is no reason for these to take up space on the character pages. Would not oppose separate "gallery" pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:57, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::If we are open to workshopping implementation I do agree a separate "gallery page" in the style we already use for more conceptual articles here and there would probably be cleaner. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 14:06, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I love the gallery idea. There's a question of how much to include, and the exact implementation details of how to portion out overflow if there's too many images. It's a shame there isn't some way to generate them automatically just by tagging images with the characters they depict. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::A separate page seems like it would be overkill for someone like [[Flamewar (G1)|Flamewar]], who would only take a few images to cover appearances not already covered by fiction section images. I assume if a small gallery was to be used on a character's page, it would be near the bottom at any rate? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:22, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Yes, at the bottom would be ideal, no different from any of the galleries on our artist pages. IMO, separate gallery pages should only be used in instances where the number of images can't be comfortably fit onto one or two lines. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:33, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::I agree with Cyberlink. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:29, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Fair; Using gallery sections for those with few images and gallery pages for those with many images might make sense. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 15:46, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::See [[Megatron (G1)/gallery|G1 Megatron]] and [[Megatron (BW)/gallery|BW Megatron]] for examples of characters with enough images to justify separate gallery pages. [[Rhinox (BW)/gallery|BW Rhinox]], as it is now, is probably right on the line between "split it off" and "stick it at the bottom of the page". -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
I think choosing between a header at the bottom or a suite depending on image amount is a good solution instead of sticking to just one method.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:29, 22 March 2022 (EDT)
:Yeah, I think that would be good, as has been pointed out earlier. I do have to ask - because sometimes the artistic difference between characters in comics is slight with details only a little different in shape or kibble - would those fall under gallery stuff? Because they're effectively different per artist interpretation. I would be inclined to say yes, because effectively a different artist's rendition is shown usually of the same character without having reformatted or taken up armor or so forth. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 10:56AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I am very much on board with this idea. Having a gallery section or page depending on the character would be great, especially for characters like Flamewar who have a extremely prominent new design that we can't use as a main pic and for characters who have tons of designs, especially in the case of IDW where some characters change bodies every Tuesday. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:35 AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I think artistic liberty vs. new design would have to be on a case by case basis. Burcham's art of the BW cast wouldn't count for gallery purposes, in my opinion. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:08, 27 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I think it would be cool to have art of the same designs in different artstyles, but I agree it should probably be on case by case basis. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 6:17 PM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I currently have a sandbox to test galleries using Tigatron https://tfwiki.net/wiki/User:MrRald/sandbox/Tigatron#Gallery. I'd appreciate any feedback on things to add or change! [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 23:44, 1 April 2022 (EDT)
::: I like what you have so far, I think we should maybe add a few more versions of Tigatron, like his different comic appearances and such. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]])

: Now that we're actually going ahead with this... I have to ask, what are the galleries actually ''for''? When we were discussing this I was under the impression that they were going to be for "behind-the-scenes" images that wouldn't otherwise have a place on the wiki, like out-of-universe character models, character concept art, or full-body renders from stuff like guidebooks. Right now, a lot of the galleries just feel redundant, given that they're just a bunch of cartoon and comic screengrabs taken from the relevant section and removed of all context... and a lot of them, like [[Blaster (G1)/gallery]] are just completely empty. The fact that every character ''can'' have a gallery does not mean that all of them ''should'', especially if most of them are just going to be redundant or mostly empty. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:57, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
::Agreed, I feel like this is bloating the wiki and toeing over the line of our vague remit. Despite having a LOT of images, we're not an image repository. Also, a lot of these could probably be done as a single subsection of the characters' mainpage under below "Notes" of whatever rather than as separate mostly-blank-space sub-pages full of sub-headers with like two images total in them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 06:11, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I didn't think they'd be separate pages. What I was expecting was whichever of the cartoon character model, Dreamwave profile art or package art weren't being used for the mainpic, plus behind-the-scenes stuff, plus maybe extra bits from artbooks, covers, or sources like that. Stuff that can't just be slotted into a fiction writeup—and I don't mean "comic crops we don't have room for because equivalent/better panels are already in the fiction section". —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:35, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
My intentions for the gallery pages were for users to actually do the work in uploading character models, renders, et al., not dumping whatever cartoon screencaps we already have in fiction sections. And separate pages would be on a case by case basis. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:46, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
I don't see the point, honestly. It seems like pretty much any significant body a significant enough character has will appear on the wiki at some point in a comic panel or a toy info image or a screenshot or something, somewhere. I'm not sure this is a problem that needs solving. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] ([[User talk:Hooper X|talk]]) 20:36, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

===G1 model images===
To branch off of this topic, how would we feel about using [https://www.allspark.com/forums/threads/the-most-accurately-coloured-g1-animation-models-online.301/ DM's coloured models] for the G1 cartoon model galleries? The last time I brought this topic up (on Discord), some people were against the idea, due to them being fan-colour works and not official, but a few newer developments have been made since I last brought it up.

To clarify, for those unaware of DM's works:

* All of the line art is original and unedited (unlike several of the models in ''The Ark'' books, which had been tweaked, altered and traced by Bill Forster to make them presentable for publishing).
* The models are the final ones used throughout the majority of the cartoon (in Toei-animated episodes at least). Note: several of the models in ''The Ark'' books we have also come to discover were unfinalized ones, due to the internet and more stuff being made public since what was originally found around 2007—not to discredit Jim and Bill's hard work in putting those books together, it's just some of what we knew then isn't entirely correct now.
* And finally, the colours (which was the big thing some people were against). Unlike the handful of fan-coloured models that were originally uploaded to the wiki in the past, which eye dropped colors straight from poor quality episode masters, DM's colours are based directly on Toei and Marvel Productions' model colour guides, colour codes, charts, colour chips found by a member of the ''Dragon Ball'' fandom (who has scanned and digitized said colour chips) and other original production materials, meaning that the colours DM has used are all coming from the ''original'' original source.

An alternative Mr. Rald had brought up on Discord is that we could possibly look at using the uncoloured model line art instead, if people feel strongly against using fan-coloured works, but I think in order to present the G1 character models fully as references, you kinda need the colours included, especially given how poor the cartoon production was, what with all the animation errors (even in Toei episodes) etc, making it hard to gather decent references for the characters, which is mostly what these galleries are for.

Also, for the record, DM has given us permission to use his colourings on the wiki.

Let me know you thoughts. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:39, 6 April 2022 (EDT)

: I personally think that we should use DM's coloured models, they are as official as coloured models are going to get, and it's not like DM just randomly picked and chose want colours to use as FOCS said. We could just have the model and the colour guide, but at that point, just have the model sheet coloured. I would however be in favour of the uncoloured models with colour guides and the sheets with the fully coloured models to cover all our bases. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:16 AM, 6 April 2022 (PDT)

== Making a page for the Unreal Engine? ==

War for Cybertron, Dark of the Moon (PS3/X360), Fall of Cybertron, and Rise of the Dark Spark all run on Unreal Engine, specifically Unreal Engine 3. Why isn't there a page for it. It could have good info on those wanting to mod those games.

Unrelated, but there's a server revival project being worked on for those games. Right now it's only on PC, and progress is slow, but should we include info for it in the pages for those games? It's not official btw, there's a Discord server for it and a few YouTube vids about it.[[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]]) 17:29, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not sure what information we could put on an Unreal Engine page that would be useful to modders. An Unreal Engine page would be general info on the engine and a list of games which use it. Diving into technical details isn't really something we do. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:52, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I think linking to {{W|Unreal Engine|Wikipedia}} should be sufficient. That's what I did when I ''unfortunately'' had to document the Funko NFTs. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:11, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I don't see what value there would be to this. Unreal warrants, at ''most'', a mention on the relevant game pages. We don't have pages for every program used to make every piece of TF media/product. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:33, 24 March 2022 (EDT)

== Category for characters with no established gender ==

So I just had this idea and decided to share it here because why not? We have categories for female characters and variable gender characters but not for characters with undetermined genders. Many BotBots for example don't have genders and I think this category could be a useful way of grouping them together. And who knows, maybe someday it could even help official creators specifically looking for genderless characters to establish a gender to them. Does anyone agree to implement this category? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:06, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:This concept has been discussed before in the past, and generally the feeling has been that this would be a bit too much like the wiki actively trying to shape canon. Don't get me wrong, creators taking advantage of characters with no official pronouns is neat and I'm all for it, but IMO the wiki shouldn't directly serve up them. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 19:26, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
::Interestingly, I can't seem to find a prior community portal discussion about this matter, though I know it has come up on the Discord server more than once, to the conclusion Jalaguy mentioned. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:35, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:::Just to clarify, I thought of "official creators using it" as a quick example in favor of the category, but now I can totally see how it sounded like trying to influence canon too much. Regardless, I'd still be down for having the category if we agreed on it being useful for any other reason. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:51, 3 April 2022 (EDT)

== Category for trans characters ==

We had a productive conversation about the no established gender thing on the wiki discord and it made me realize that there should be a transgender category for the five established trans characters that there are so far, Arcee (who has established trans characterization on two different pages), Howlback, Arcadis, Anode, and Lug. Jalaguy mentioned that this has been discussed and people thought it was a good idea but it hasn't happened, so I just thought I'd ask for go-ahead on this. I figured that transgender rather than just trans could be a good word to use for this, due to them all being people who have gender. The term trans is merely more broad and could cover different kinds of transness than that or aesthetic stuff that is similar to gender, but we have no confirmation of being there yet in canon. Thus I think transgender would be the most accurate and desirable term here, and the umbrella trans can always be tacked on later if we need to. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 5:40PM 3 April 2022 (PDT) (edited 5:48PM PDT for clarity)
:Seconded. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 5:53 PM, 3 April 2022 (PDT)
::Since there are no objections, I'll go ahead. :3 -- [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 4:19AM, 11 April 2022 (PDT)

==Streamlining disambig headers (revist)==
So I remember this conversation from last year about streamlining the disambiguation headers. I checked back on the talk page discussion (link to said discussion archive here https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive69#Streamlining_disambig_headers) to see what happened and even though there was a lot of people who liked the idea with some who did not, it did not seem like it went anywhere. I thought I'd see if anyone else would like to revisit this idea as I feel like this would streamline things more, especially for Movie and Aligned and maybe a bit of UT especially for the guys who show up in all 3 shows or those don't have other bots who are completely different sharing the same name within the trilogy. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 9:01 PM, 12 April 2022 (PDT)

== Disambig tags and suites for Masterforce paired pages ==

We need to balance out our page titles for ''Masterforce'' human + transtector character pairs. Right now we have among extant pages and tentative redlinks:

Bullhorn (G1), Cab (human), Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (human), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (robot), [something], Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (robot)

I propose either we do human gets no species tag with the robot getting a species tag as the splinter page:

Bullhorn (G1) | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

or the human does get a species tag to equally balance with the robot:

Bullhorn (G1)/human | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

This would eliminate the need to have any longer-within-parentheses tag like "Minerva (G1 robot)" which would be affected by future continuities which may not yet have happened. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:55, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
:I would prefer either the human gets the "default" continuity tag with no further disambiguation or (human)/(robot) (with needed variations for disambiguation). The slash system is ugly to me. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:59, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::I'm of the opinion that the slash option for both feels the most fair. While the human versions were the first and thus feel the most deserving of the "default" tag, the robot versions are likely to become more commonplace and relevant as newer fiction dips its toes into using more Japanese characters. On a similar note, it was decided not to give the "BW" tag to either BW Silverbolt out of fairness, so while a similar "human/robot" concept could be implemented, there is the problem with Minerva having an Animated counterpart who is also a robot, Cancer having an Animated counterpart who is also a human, there being a Kre-O Bullhorn who is also a robot, a G.I. Joe Lightfoot who is also a human, and an IDW Wilder who is also a human. "Minerva (Headmaster)" also doesn't work for the G1 robot since the human was a Headmaster too. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:29, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::The slash system may not be entirely visually pleasant, but I consider having "Minerva (G1 robot)" in parentheses worse. In my proposal, all transtector characters would be unified symmetrically as "(robot)". [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:47, 24 April 2022 (EDT)

Here are three proposals to unify the namespaces:

Possibility 1: humans get nothing and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1), Cab, Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai, Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (G1), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 2: both humans and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1)/human, Cab/human, Cancer (G1)/human, Clouder/human, Ginrai/human, Shūta Gō/human, Lightfoot (G1)/human, Minerva (G1)/human, Ranger/human, Road King/human, Wilder (G1)/human

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 3: both humans and robots get parentheses

Bullhorn (G1 human), Cab (human), Cancer (G1 human), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1 human), Minerva (G1 human), Ranger (human), Road King (human), Wilder (G1 human)

Bullhorn (G1 robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (G1 robot), Doubleclouder, Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1 robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (G1 robot)

Thoughts? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:12, 12 June 2022 (EDT)
:Isn't Option 1 one basically just a slightly different version of what we're already using and what you're proposing to change in the first place? Anyway, like I said above, Option 2 is the most fair between the human and robot depictions (as Option 1 feels like we're saying "The human versions are the more important versions" when it's the robot versions that are more likely to get any representation in future comic appearances), and it reduces the amount of multiple-word parentheses tags that we usually dislike using and try to avoid as best we can (which is the exact opposite of what Option 3 is proposing). Though, drop the "/human" from Clouder and Shūta Gō since their names already differ from "Doubleclouder" and "Goshooter". No need to complicate those two. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 08:45, 12 June 2022 (EDT)

==Transformers: Armada (Trading Card Collection)==
I recently discovered that Fleer published a Trading Card collection in 2003 for Transformers Armada.
I've documented everything I could find about it - including an Energon (preview) Scorponok card I got from a local retro game store.
[[Iacon0/Sandbox]]
Is it alright if I roll this out? [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 12:52, 1 May 2022 (EDT)

== WFC/FOC Reenergized Server Project info? ==

Info: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO5yzrWE9yVT56Rgxl9oqntVysxWr2k7e

Basically, it brings back the multiplayer servers for the Cybertron games, PC and PS3. Should this be talked about in the pages for those games? (ROTDS and ROTF aren't online at the moment, and 360 versions won't have support) [[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]])}
:It's not official, so no, it shouldn't. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:54, 27 June 2022 (EDT)

== Handling of "former GoBots" and "former Diaclone" characters on the wiki ==

So recently we've been seeing multiple characters that had previously been portrayed as dimension-hoppers from non-Transformers realities, but using Transformers designs — [[Bug Bite (GoBots)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]] and [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]] — appearing as "normal" Transformers ([[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]]). There's some heavy dispute over whether we should put them on the same page or split them out (e.g. "since the GoBots Bug Bite isn't ''originally'' from a G1 universe, he shouldn't go on the G1 Bug Bite page), so I thought we should probably have a centralised place to put together a comprehensive set of standards.

My take, personally, is that GoBots and Diaclone are *not* continuity families, they're their own properties that happen to cross over with Transformers, and so shouldn't be split on that basis. I feel that Burn Out and Lift-Ticket, regardless of them being portrayed as Diaclone mecha in their initial appearance, are the same basic concept as the likes of Road Rage and Tigertrack — "Transformers versions" of existing Diaclone toys and decoes. It helps that [[Spin-Out (G1)]] inherently blurs the lines, having first appeared as a "normal" Transformer ''before'' he was portrayed as a former Diaclone mech.

For the GoBots characters, I'd frankly be tempted to go even more radical and just merge ''all'' of them — put all the [[Cy-Kill (disambiguation)|Cy-Kill]] cameos on one page, like we do for other external property characters. Even in the edge cases like [[Fracture (Movie)|Fracture]], there's the precedent of her actually being intended as just ''being'' the GoBot. It feels a lot simpler to me than the headache of having Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, and Bug Bite, the ''other'' white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, having separate pages on a technicality. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:57, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Hard disagree on GoBots. By virtue of covering the Scioli comic in full, we have a GoBots continuity family to put them in. I say keep the ones who are explicitly GoBots at (GoBots), and put the ones who are Transformers (or ambiguous) at their respective continuity families. Basically, what we're doing for Bug Bite, do for all of them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:23, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:I don't agree on movie-Fracture in specific and the mass-merge of ''all'' GoBots-based characters in general. Fracture's a movie-universe character who premiered in a movie-based toyline and appeared in movie-timeline fiction. "The toy was originally conceived as" holds very little water there in light of all the rest of that. I'm not wild about merging characters from different continuity families (aka "major franchise umbrellas", the point of that divide was always less "fiction-detail based" and more "real-world Hasbro/Takara starting over based" as an organizational tool), as that leans heavily towards the Wikipedia style "just lump 'em all together" manner that... doesn't really work for our scope. There's SG Bug Bite and Crasher too, I don't think they should go under a giant singular page for the character concept.
: But ''in general'' I agree with keeping stuff like Lift-Ticket and Burn Out together because the distinction is really too nitpicky to be useful. If we get an EarthSpark Lift-Ticket who is a red Hoist-like bot, then they can go on a separate page because "new major franchise umbrella" gives a decent degree of separation. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:25, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: Oh, well, the SG GoBots are an obvious exception. If it's a "mirror universe" I feel like it should never share a page because the point is that it's the opposite.
:: That said, there are other nuances I admit I skimmed over — stuff like Wings Universe Cop-Tur, who's based on the original but is a secret genius and a good guy, I'm not sure he should be merged in. At the same time, though, splitting the Bug Bites feels disingenuous, and I'm not sure whether there's a good middle ground between "split 'em all" and "merge 'em all". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:44, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I also agree there isn't really a good middle ground. But here's the thing: If GoBots wasn't a factor and it was just G1 and Cyberverse, we wouldn't be having this conversation. At the end of the day, they're from another IP, but they're also genuine Transformers characters, and thus they should remain split like other Transformers characters. And that includes treating the genuine GoBot incarnations as separate entities. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:51, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I am, honestly, not sold either way on splitting/merging re: the "very distinctly the Tonka GoBots who originated from the Tonka GoBots franchise". I feel that there are '''''definitely''''' some bots that should not be merged with the Tonkas, by virtue of being from different continuity-families/hub-franchises (bots from the live action movies and Cyberverse, for example, should really stay separate). I'm less concerned about "in-fiction origin" because that's a clusterfuck all its own since 1984 best just left alone and we already disregard that for like Nebulans and stuff anyway, though I'd also argue that like, it should be taken into consideration the diff between an homage and an iteration (I'd argue ''Timelines'' Cop-Tur is the former and probably shouldn't be merged). But even just looking at them from the real-world staggered integration of the franchises, GoBots ARE a weird edge case (whaaat, something Scioli was involved in got weird? ''nnnoooOOOOOooooo'') and it kinda feels off to not treat them as a separate thing given their ultimate origins. But like, they are, functionally, "G1" characters as far as "how they were brought to TF" goes in the real world, and I'm not convinced that splitting out WFC Bug Bite is really a good idea or terribly helpful. So like, I dunno. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:06, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::::And then there's the ''very'' unique case of GoBots Stretch having been given a retroactive backstory of being born in the world of Transformers Animated before he crossed dimensions and became a GoBot. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:23, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::::If anything, Stretch is a Transformer pretending to be a GoBot.
:::::The criteria that keep this wiki running and readable have always had some smudgy bits, and if you stare too long at any of them pretty soon all one sees is the smudge, not the dividing line or even the story itself. Cyberverse and Prime are each ''basically'' a retelling of G1, and if they didn't have a few features we've accepted as clear dividers from "real" G1, they could have gone within G1 just as much as the IDW comics have. The divisions are necessary to keep information from being a useless, unstructured, unnavigable mess; hopefully we can draw the lines in a way that comes to require the fewest exceptions later. '''My thoughts''': when there's a Bug Bite whose origin is explicitly "I'm not a Transformer, I'm hiding among them, creatures like myself find Transformers to be nauseating uncanny valley aliens," then that's a pretty extreme division, more extreme than many others we've been holding up for years without controversy, and should stay very much separate from any other Bug Bites who are just plain ol' white car Transformers. The various Cy-Kill cameos in G1 and Armada should stay separate, just because that's how we handle other hi-and-die cameos across firm storyline borders (Animated Overlord, SG Krok). I agreed at first with splitting the Burnouts/Lift-Tickets, but if it is really causing a huge dilemma I do not object to re-merging them. Each pair exists within the G1 storytelling universe. It is not essential that we build 2 different pages for G1 universe Lift-Tickets where one of them is a Diaclone mech and the other looks just like it and comes from someplace called Diaclone. We could paper that over with a "Note" explanation. The really important part is that both the Burn-Out and Lift-Ticket cases must get the same resolution. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 05:10, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:I vote for split. I regret ever pushing for merging similar concepts around the time of ''Ask Vector Prime'' because a decade ago this wouldn't have been a question, it would have been settled with "obvious they're different characters." [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:38, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Strongly in favor of putting the Diaclones back together so long as they remain essentially G1 guys. Especially since we now have ''two nigh-identical Burn-Out pages that differ only by which sliver of fiction section they possess''. Moderately in favor of putting all the dumb Cy-Kill cameos together because, like, it's only moderately funny to split out Cy-Kill (Armada) on a technicality. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:47, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: I'm going to stay out of the Bugbite / Fracture question. I'm too involved on the creative side. I think Walky nails it about Burn-Out & Lift-Ticket. And probably the Cy-Kill cameos too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:11, 29 July 2022 (EDT)

:I have to ask: if this is a concern, why did we split out the Cloud articles a month ago. Because they also are clearly designed to look like G1 characters, and aside from some minor changes in personality and dimension hopping stuff (which also applies to these three examples here), are near-identical in fiction to their Generation 1 counterparts. What makes them different from Bug Bite, Burn Out, and Lift-Ticket? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:29, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Lead Cloud translator here. As we discussed in-depth at the time, the Cloud characters do nothing *but* dimension hop and frequently cross over with the Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity and their own G1 incarnations, rendering them nigh unintelligible when buried in A-list G1 articles. The Cloud issue was one of logistics and readability, not one on the philosophy of intrinsic "G1-ness," as I believe was said at the time. I would also argue something on the scale of Cloud is a different discussion entirely from the current topic of merging two one-paragraph articles.

::On a most practical level re-merging a thoroughly deliberated and reasonably large scale split from a couple months ago just strikes me as kind of a waste of community resources.

::For those that missed it the impetus was translating the other 80-90% of the prose and the discussion can be found [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Splitting_Cloud_characters|here]]. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

Had a brainwave about a potential way to handle the GoBots characters—as a compromise between "treating them like full Transformers characters" and "treating them like external properties", use the GoBots page as a "hub" for the others. I've mocked up a couple of sandboxes for [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Cy-Kill|Cy-Kill]] and [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Bug Bite|Bug Bite]]. Any thoughts? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:16, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:If we absolutely have to (which I still really don't agree with) I'd prefer this over full fledged merging. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:02, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:I think this is a good compromise. The important thing is that there's a clear delineation between the dimension-hopping GoBots and native Cybertronians, and I think this fits the bill. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:03, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
::I still don't like the idea of rolling in the ''Cyberverse'' Bug Bite or any other not-G1-franchise iterations on the GB character concepts (like movieverse Fracture), even in the proposed super-abridged-and-linked-to-main-article format. For the appearances within the franchise of TF-origin, sure, I think this works. Cy-Kill's multiverse of murder... ehn. I'm not really feeling strongly either way but like we got hi-then-die charcater micropages aplenty, I don't think Cy is something terribly unique to not get them. Like... we got a page for "the many deaths of Optimus Prime", I feel like "the many deaths of Cy-Kill" could probably stand to be its own thing if we REALLY wanted to hammer the point of how stupid and hack it is home. Which, come to think about it, I kinda DO. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:42, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Ah, see, Fracture was something I was specifically thinking of here — I thought it would work to accomodate both the original intent and how she's been tied back to Crasher in <s>Jim's nonsense</s> fan-targeted media while still respecting the practical reality of Fracture as her own, movieverse character. That said, I do understand your reluctance, so if the majority is against this I'm not too fussed. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:22, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, it feels like "Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee" is its own Transformers thing at this point. He may have originated as a GoBots transplant (both in real life and in fiction), but that doesn't automatically make every iteration of Bug Bite a GoBot, any more than every subsequent iteration of Lockdown or Lugnut is considered an Animated character. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:34, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::::I appreciate the work Riptide put into this and like the writing / presentation style employed... and I just still don't think it's necessary. Between disambigs and "You Look Familiar...", we already have ways to cope with characters who look alike across different continuities but who aren't the same character. Most of these transplanted GoBots are absolutely not the same characters as each other - most of the Cy-Kill cameos, Cyberverse Bug Bite. There is no need for us to build a new way to unite those cross-continuity characters when nothing unites them more than the "basic concepts" that we've kept separate on hundreds of other name / appearance reuses. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:43, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::I adore this brain blast, over and above what I proposed below (as it actually accommodates, in Cy-Kill's case, say, the ''Armada/TransTech/Animated'' cameos), and think the fact that people on both sides of this polarising issue aren't immediately opposed to it makes it strike me as a really good compromise. I still would prefer the ''Diaclone'' pages to be merged with their G1 counterparts, but whether or not it's a full merge or just the "main article" structure here, the intro phrasing proposed with Cy-Kill and Bug-Bite is perfect in my opinion. The key thing for me is that, when people look up info on Cy-Kill or Burn Out, they still find a pointer to the relevant information at the exact point they'd expect it to be, and not only that, but they can chart the entire conceptual history of the character on one page (I know the disambigs theoretically do the same, but in practise Jo's approach is much more effective). Assuming the same policy isn't applied to ''Uprising'' appearances, I still think something should be done about those—but otherwise I'd be very happy with this. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:16, 1 August 2022 (EDT)

So as I understand it, the consensus is that Diaclone characters should share a page with their G1 counterparts, and that — at least for the moment — GoBot characters should be left as-is, with White Bumblebee's G1 adventures split between the GoBot and G1 pages? Would appreciate some more input before we begin implementing this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:09, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:I still don't like the Diaclone thing but clearly I'm outvoted. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:More or less. I'm fine with rolling G1 WFC Bug Bite in with the explicitly-GoBots one in the manner test-bedded above on the same grounds as the whole "Nebulan/Cybertronian" deal with Targetmaster gun-bots we've done forever; I think the proposed format both works with the way we've handled disparate depictions between different fictions within the same franchise chunk for a very long time now while noting the important real-world issues with these transplanted characters. And it's not like the combo page would be anywhere near big enough to make a split-out necessary. But I'm willing to table that for the moment while moving ahead with rolling the Diaclones back in. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:15, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
::I agree with this completely. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:11, 3 August 2022 (EDT)
:Diaclone characters should share pages with G1 counterparts who are also canonically said to be Diaclone-y. If we ever get a "Gobots Universe Bug Bite" that would be merged too - but just "white car Bug Bite" should not. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:21, 3 August 2022 (EDT)

==Proposal re: G1 pages==
I'm not expecting anything other than a hard "no" on this from the vast majority of editors, but a few people impelled me to post it, so here goes. In particular, I think this perspective is one held by many casual readers of the wiki. As I said over on [[Talk:Burn Out (Diaclone)|Burn Out's talk page]], I think both camps feel a sense of "''obviously'' these are (not) the same character", depending on whether they're coming from a strictly in-universe perspective or not. I want to put that whole discussion into an even broader perspective. Plus, I think the list of characters below is an interesting resource in its own right.

For ages, the wiki's had it so G1 appearances of characters originating in ''Robots in Disguise''—such as [[Sky-Byte (RID)]]—just get put on those pages. My understanding is that RID was considered something of a special case, because of how it was originally conceived as an in-continuity G1 thing, and remained such in Japanese continuity. For a less-prominent example, see also ''[[Power Core Combiners]]'', which similarly lists the IDW G1 appearances of [[Smolder (PCC)]] and [[Steamhammer (PCC)]] just on those pages. Again, this was a special case, because PCC was never concretely established as being a live-action movieverse thing or a G1 thing (which makes sense, because in Hasbro's eyes at the time, that wasn't a distinction that mattered to them).

There are other areas on the wiki that take a continuity-agnostic approach; I think it's just character pages that are handled so strictly. Check out [[Noisemaze Mass Production Type Version]]—which honestly ''is'' a character page in every way that matters—for a recently-made-relevant-again example. For many bigger-picture concept pages, a similar approach is used to great effect: [[Transformation]], [[Scanning]], [[Energon]], [[Protoform]], [[Spark]], [[Living metal]], [[Mini-Con]], [[Energon mutation]], just to grab a few random examples.

To draw attention to one last point, which I predict will resonate a lot with people who already agree with me and not at all with people who don't: any and all ''Beast Wars'' or ''Beast Machines'' original characters are exempt from this issue—despite, on a real-world level, there not really being any difference between those franchises and the likes of ''Armada'' or ''Animated''. It's just the lore connection that keeps it tethered, despite the wiki treating it as its ''own'' continuity family in basically every other way that matters.

My specific proposal is this: '''for characters originating ''outside of G1'', don't keep separate G1 pages.''' Treat those characters as we do Sky-Byte, ignoring the "continuity family" divide, and put the appearances on the page where they're most relevant. Here are the salient benefits of this approach:
*Have all the information on many popular post-G1 characters in the place where most casual readers would expect to look.
*Cut the Gordian knot of the GoBots/Diaclone debate.
*Finally ditch all those (BWU) pages consisting of a single sentence and a duplicated toy entry.
*Fewer redundant toy writeups which need to be maintained in parallel.
*Far, far fewer awkward paragraphs in Notes sections talking about "continuity transplants" like those are a real thing.

Here is a list of pages which I think would be affected, sorted by continuity, just from an hour or so of searching:
*'''''Diaclone''''': [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]]
*'''''GoBots''''': [[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Crasher (G1)]], [[Cy-Kill (G1)]], [[Leader-1 (G1)]], [[Rest-Q (G1)]], [[Cop-Tur (G1)]] (!)
*'''''Armada''''': [[Hot Shot (G1)]], [[Red Alert (IDW)]], [[Demolisher (G1)]], [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Sideways (RM)]] (!), [[Treadshot (IDW)]]
*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Override (BWU)]], [[Ransack (IDW)]], [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Signal Lancer (G1)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Barricade (IDW)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Breacher (G1)]], [[Terradive (G1)]], [[Hailstorm (G1)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''Animated''''': [[Bulkhead (G1)]] (!), [[Lugnut (TF 2010)]], [[Lockdown (G1)]], [[Slipstream (G1)]] (!), [[Oil Slick (G1)]], [[Lightbright (G1)]], [[Lickety-Split (G1)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Breakdown (IDW)]], [[Airachnid (G1)]], [[Predaking (Kingdom)]], [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Rescue Bots''''': [[Medix (G1)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Scatterspike (G1)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Headlock (G1)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Transit (G1)]], [[Fracture (Cybertron)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Cyberverse''''': [[Shadow Striker (G1)]], [[Croaton (G1)]], [[Meteorfire (G1)]], [[Wildwheel (G1)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Doomwings (G1)]], [[Ursa Major (G1)]], [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': (deep breath) [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Twirl (G1)]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Sky Blast (G1)]], [[Sureshock (G1)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]
I assuredly missed some, so feel free to edit the lists above to add any other characters that would be affected by this proposal which are omitted!

Again, the vast majority of these are from ''Beast Wars Uprising'', which does have some weird lingering cases that would need further individual discussion, I think: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]]. But for the most part, I really don't see any reason why there should be all these tiny nothing pages; the only reason all those Mini-Cons were not called Mini-Cons is that in the ''Uprising'' universe, Mini-Cons are called Micromasters instead (which is the lore equivalent of "[[Barricade (G1)]] doesn't look like he's made of knives"). This is even ''less'' an irreconcilable lore detail than, for example, the organic/robotic split for Targetmasters and the like. My main goal with sharing this is to revisit the ''Uprising'' policy, because from where I'm sitting, it's resulted in exactly the same horribly inconvenient setup as the ''Diaclone'' stuff. A different, specific policy there would deal with most of the examples above, and I'd be very happy; what I've suggested is just a one-size-fits-all policy.

The weirdest victim of this stated policy, I think, is that of [[Bulkhead (G1)]], who technically originated with Animated, but whose appearances in G1 media have all drawn specifically from the ''Prime'' version. [[Slipstream (G1)]] is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: [[Slipstream (Animated)]], [[Slipstream (WFC)]] and [[Slipstream (Cyberverse)]], depending on which specific version is being depicted. That means all of the Bulkhead appearances would actually go on the ''Prime'' page. I really don't feel strongly on this detail, though. [[Cop-Tur (G1)]], as mentioned in the above discussion, is another edge case. One more strange case ''not'' listed above is that of [[Emissary (IDW)]], who homages the ''Robots in Disguise'' character but genuinely has what I'd consider to be a radically different portrayal, likely inspired as much by the ''Titans Return'' figure as anything.

To be clear, I consider G1 a special case because of how it's a catch-all label for anything that isn't Hasbro's newest ground-up reboot du jour. Like it or not, G1 usually doesn't actually mean "G1" any more, it just means ''Transformers''. I absolutely wouldn't want to start merging anything from other continuity families—that way pure madness lies. But I think this proposal has clear-cut criteria for inclusion, and would feel more consistent with other areas of existing wiki policy. To give a specific, relevant example: I don't think [[Fracture (Movie)]]'s appearances should be folded onto her merged ''GoBots'' page as some have suggested, ''but'' I do think her toy writeup should be on both without any "blah blah repurposed" hedging, and likewise for the other movieverse characters based on redecos designed by [[Joe Kyde]] contemporaneously with Classics and Universe with specific G1 characters (mostly Micromasters) in mind, some of which were even intended to be released as part of the ''Universe'' toyline. These being: [[Fracture (Movie)]], [[Big Daddy (Movie)]], [[Jolt (Movie)]], [[Grindcore (Movie)]], [[Breakaway (Movie)]], and [[Crankcase (Movie)]]. [[Mudflap (Movie)]] and [[Inferno (Movie)]] are basically the exact same but nobody ever talks about that.

Finally, I think [[Gigatron (G1)]]/[[Overlord (G1)]], [[Zaptrap]]/[[Kuwagatrer]], and [[Rotorbolt (Timelines)]]/[[Skyklik]]/[[Fumes]] should prrrooobably be revisited? In the former two cases, they exist due to niche media establishing them as separate individuals within the same continuity, but we already have precedent for dealing with that—see [[Hot Shot (G1)]]. I will concede that the Rotorbolt situation is quite funny.

I understand that the wiki is structured the way it is for good reasons, but the post-[[Evergreen]] state of the franchise is one where most writers are plucking characters from anywhere in the franchise's history without any significant changes to their depiction. The existing policy will only become more cumbersome as time goes on, in my eyes—I know for many editors, the list of pages above is a horrible scary list of Exceptions, but from where I'm sitting, they feel more like exceptions as they already stand? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 07:25, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:As someone who is basically sympathetic to your goals and not knee-jerk opposed to the idea, this:
:::"Slipstream (G1) is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: Slipstream (Animated), Slipstream (WFC) and Slipstream (Cyberverse), depending on which specific version is being depicted."
:is the worst thing I've ever read. Just, why? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I was mostly being glib, I don't have a good answer there! Just wanted to draw attention to the fact that it ''would'' be a problem with the proposal. It's also been pointed out that all of [[Lockdown (G1)|Lockdown]]'s appearances are visually based on the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' toy! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:56, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Absolutely not. There's so much here that's based on false assumptions/incorrect information that I absolutely refuse to take any of this seriously. Concepts are on the same page because they are just that: concepts. There's so much to pick apart here but because I have important things to do, I'll just say that right now, the only reason why there was ''ever'' any confusion over Power Core Combiners is because fans took behind the scenes information from the company overly literally. You actually look at the one piece of information about the toyline (the brief history provided directly by Hasbro the club) and it makes it abundantly clear that it was always meant to be movieverse; I even argued back at the time about Smoulder and Steamhammer being put on that page, and the only reason why it's still that way is because the argument just fizzled out. And once again, I really have to ask: why the hell are we pushing forward merges based on "vibes" when we still keep the Sideways' (someone who is actually said in fiction to all be the same guy) apart based on moronic, petty reasons? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:01, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Yeah, no, sorry, I think this is ultimately unhelpful and going to cause more accessibility issues than it solves. "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in" is perhaps a little confusing to new readers, but it's ultimately fairly self-consistent and easy to navigate once you understand the basic concept; "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in, with the exception of RID01 which shares its pages with G1, and any latter-day characters imported into G1, which go on the pages of their non-G1 incarnations" is very confusing and requires you to be deep in the sauce to understand which characters are and are not exceptions to the rule. I obviously think that flexibility of the system is a good thing — the RID/G1 merge, while less than ideal, is definitely the best way to solve a very unintuitive issue — but the more holes we poke in the tower the closer it comes to collapsing, if you catch my drift.
:Ultimately I think the occasional silliness of "Shadow Striker (G1) who is identical to Shadow Striker (Cyberverse)" and such is the price we pay for having any structure whatsoever. The more we make exceptions on the basis of ultimately arbitrary "well this one's SO similar" the less consistent the wiki overall gets, and the harder it gets to navigate. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Basically, this. And I don't even think that drawing the franchise-based chunk distinction is all that confusing given I think most people grok the idea that characters will pop up across sub-fictions of major multi-media franchises with varying levels of similarity to prior incarnations that are still "oh, it's a wholly separate storyline, okay". That's just how these things ''do''. (and like "multiverse" has kinda become a ''thing'' in other franchises the last several years) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 10:00, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:"We've always put RID guys appearing in G1 as still being the RID character, look at Sky Byte" - what other examples make this an "always"? There WERE two Sky Byte pages, for years. We only stopped having a Sky-Byte (G2) when its character model in the IDW G1 comic was explicitly based off the new T30 toy sculpt which wound up with like half of these separate articles duplicating each other. It was argued on that talk page for a long while. The only other case I can think of at all is Gigatron (G1), and we ''don't'' treat him like Megatron (RID).
:"We treat BW as a continuity family like Armada, it looks like we are showing favoritism to them" - we treat it like a franchise within G1, which is what it is. And we disambig by franchise, not by continuity family. "Chase (RB)", not "Chase (Aligned)" or "Chase (Prime)". This was one of the concerns I raised last year when we turned Victory, Masterforce et al into G1 because they had no separate box branding of their own, wait it turned out they did, welp whattaya gonna do, no backsies.
:'''Last but MOST''', I'd say that, yes, "lore connections" mean a great deal here, it is a feature not a bug. This is a fiction-centric wiki as surely as it's an English-centric one. We put character writeups first, above the toys. We give the toys the character names and say "his stickers", not "its stickers" and talk about how it represents the character, not about how many micrograms of silicon it contains. Separating characters because they come from different storyline eras / offerings is entirely normal and reasonable for us. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:43, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I don't disagree in general, but G1/IDW Gigatron DOES share a page with RID Megatron. [[Gigatron (G1)]] is the Overlord repurpose. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:49, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Oof. Don't know why I clearly remembered them as being separate, but in any case I regret the error. Thank you.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
There's no way to organize something like this place without something somewhere seeming arbitrary. I think the existing structure is arbitrary in the best way that makes the most sense, and trying to "mitigate" that arbitrariness just creates different arbitrariness. A lot of this "but what if we redid all this to fix this particular thing" shuffling just relitigates why we already do the stuff we already do. so, like: no --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 09:54, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

== The Discord ==

Alright, seriously, we need to talk about this. It is beyond frustrating that a greater than 50% chunk of discussion about what big edits will happen on the wiki are happening on an app that people either aren't on or (in my case) aren't allowed on. I was told it was going to just to get voices onto things but that clearly isn't how it's working out. We need either some sort of archival dump of all these posts or something because I'm tired of getting into arguments where half the responses haven't even happened on the main site itself. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:45, 17 August 2022 (EDT)
: I think you're drastically overestimating how much discussion about big edits is happening on the Discord. No actual big decisions are getting made there, and we make it a point to repeatedly remind people that discussion for major changes needs to happen here before anything gets decided. But we also can't stop anyone from simply talking about things there the same way we couldn't stop discussion on the AllSpark thread when that was a thing, and having a public log of discussions from the editing channel is both infeasible and frankly unnecessary. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 09:09, 17 August 2022 (EDT)

==Designer bylines on toy writeups==

As those of us who have been tuning in to the [[Hasbro Pulse#Livestreams|Hasbro Pulse livestreams]] have no doubt noticed, one side effect of the unprecedented transparency of the current team on the ''Generations'' franchise is that we are now pretty consistently being blasted with a fire hose of toy designer credits. While there's been a scramble to record them on the designers' pages as best we can, this rapidly growing body of information is not doing the average reader a whole lot of good sequestered away on pages that require them to already know the designers by name. As such, I've put together a template to act as a designer byline for relevant toy write-ups, largely following the formatting of our existing voice actor template.

Documentation for the prototype template which I've named '''<nowiki>{{toydesigner}}</nowiki>''' can be found here:

*[[:Template:Toydesigner]]

And a variety of examples of implementation can be found here:

*[[User:AzimuthAcolyte/Sandbox/Toy credits demo]]

Is this something we would be interested in implementing?

Questions, concerns, suggestions etc are welcome. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:33, 22 August 2022 (EDT)

:I support adding this template, it's valid information and helps put names and faces in a historically anonymous industry due to the lack of credits in the products themselves.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:38, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I think this is a great idea. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I really like it. The only possible negative is that unless a whole bunch of people are very dedicated to this (or one brave soul is ''extremely'' dedicated to it) we might end up seeing it only appear on a small handful of toy entries and most will never feature it. I vote for going ahead with it regardless.
:::While we are addressing the "designer credits" issue, can we also please find a better phrase to use on the designer pages than "Toys So-and-so is known to have had a hand in creating"? It's just so overwrought. I think "Design Team Credits Include:" gets the point across much more naturally.... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:54, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::::This is a fair point. Maybe something as blunt as "Known Design Work" mirroring the "Published Works" thing we use for writers/artists? -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Looks good to me. Hope we can scrounge together sources and lists for older design teams too. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 15:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I can't see any reason not to do this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not a toy person, but that looks really cool! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:23, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
Oh wow, I'm blown away by the universally positive reception here! If there are no concerns in the next few days I guess I'll get started rolling this out. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Alrighty it's been a fair bit with no further concerns, so I have pushed the template live to [[:Template:Toydesigner]] and will begin implementing it as I have time. Any and all help is appreciated, as this will of course be a huge job. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 16:13, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Wiki Toy Photo Quality Standards ==
So we know (and had long suspected anyway) that Hasbro designers are sometimes pulling Wiki photos for reference. That's great, but we've got some toy photography on here that's a good bit off from what the figures look like in reality for one reason or another. Is there any way to flag shots that are out of whack so that they might get tweaked or replaced? This issue comes to mind since, while I've been here more or less since the Wiki started, I don't recall there being a formal set of standards for photos since it just wasn't really a big deal before now. Oversaturation is my main complaint, since one user a long while ago was going through, taking existing shots into Photoshop and oversaturating the hell out of them without regard to the actual toy, and I've noticed some updated photography like [[Prowl (Magnaboss)]] that does basically the same. It's a larger photo, but that Prowl is definitely not blazing yellow in person. Apologies in advance and please disregard if this has already been discussed elsewhere or before.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:10, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:For the record, my lighting set up is very warm, hence why Prowl's colours appear so bright. I haven't figured out the right balance in Photoshop to get the colours of figures to look spot on so figures either appear too bright or too dull in the finished product. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:30, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::Oh, I'm not intending to put you on the spot, that's just the first example I had on hand of a wider issue that we probably need to start being careful about since it appears to be (hilariously) affecting actual figures now, like Titans Return PMOP or Legacy Iguanus. When it was the one guy tweaking things to be inaccurate "because it looked better", I could follow him and revert stuff, but I can't when there's nothing to revert in most cases.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 18:38, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::I recommend ring lights, you can get some pretty cheap, they've good at spreading light out rather than heavy-focus, and they have adjustable brightness and warm/cool light settings: use "cool" (aka white/blue-tinted). Even before I got ring lights, I used "cool" light bulbs in the lamps. The problem is these are nowhere as common as the "normal" yellow-tinted bulbs, thus, go with the ring lights.
::As for "standards"... well, good luck with that. Every camera's a little different. Every MONITOR is a little different. Hell, I have a double-monitor setup with different models and they have small but distinct differences in brightness & etc; honestly I'm good with it since it lets me check how things may look to different people. But I think maybe a tag for photos that we are CERTAIN are too far off from final product (be they user-made or stock images) may not be a bad idea. Assuming we notice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:44, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, a tag we can throw on to a photo just to make it at least visible that it's incorrect would be useful. And would probably prompt a deco designer to gather some secondary reference material, assuming the tag's obvious. I like the idea.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:29, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I've noticed that the quality of the UT stuff in the toys section flunctuates greatly-- for example, ML Starscream still uses the guidebook picture, and Superlink ver of the combining Optimus downright doesn't exist. I've started to collect UT toys since Hasbro has been updating UT stuff with more commitment and I have 0 faith in them doing it right, and most of the stuff I've gotten are the JP versions. For minor alterations like ML/ Armada Megs, is it worth uploading a completely new picture of ML Megatron onto his page? Another issue worth regarding discussing is "cartoon accuracy". Whilst Hasbro is indeed working on making more accurate figures, they obviously aren't 100% accurate, like 86 starscream using the commonly accepted G1 logo instead of the sunbow accurate one with the spike in the middle, and even from a sculpt and proportional standppint the ER mold is far from accurate compared to the sunbow model, let alone MP52. I actually cleaned up the page for TM2 Megatron because he deviates pretty heavily if you compare the CG model to the final toy, and changed the claim that Skids is "toon" accurate as he is blantently based on the original toy in deco. The same goes for Starscream, aside from the forearms and forehead hes blatently based on the T30 toy. I also had to edit that bit --[[User: Pixelmaster|Pixelmaster]] 3:31 HKT

==Reconsolidating some of our pages==
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, but I'd like to propose re-merging some of our excessively split articles back into something more manageable. It seems like that once a page is split out, a) we get a lot less editorial oversight, as the recent toy page trimming has revealed, b), stuff does not get updated nearly as often as they would be on their respective mainpages, and c) it makes information harder to find by pushing it behind a subpage that's not readily accessible.

Obviously I understand that splits are necessary for the really long pages like [[Optimus Prime (G1)]], [[Megatron (G1)]], and soforth, but when you get down to like, [[Mirage (G1)]] or [[Hound (G1)]] or [[Hot Shot (Armada)]], there's barely anything of any significance on their main pages beyond Dreamwave or the odd IDW cameo. Are, for instance, [[Ravage (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ravage]]'s Marvel adventures that major that they can't fit into the main page? Are [[Hook (G1)/toys|Hook]] or [[Warpath (G1)#Toys|Warpath]] really that inundated with toys that they need their own subpage? If it's a problem of just ''length'', then a lot of the subpaged articles or mainpage stuff like the storybooks could just be trimmed down into something more manageable—as I did with G1 Cliffjumper's Marvel section earlier this year. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 17:00, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:I 100% agree with this. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:04, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Fully in favour. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 17:20, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Sub-pages should, on their own, be significantly sizable pages to justify making readers link-jump. A dozen toys does not strike me as remotely enough to justify a subpage split. Being ''in'' a major long-running fiction but mostly having appearances in a minority of installments that can be summed up in two sentences doesn't justify a split. New editing tools are fun and all, but just 'cuz you gotta new hammer doesn't mean you have to go hunting for anything that looks vaguely nail-like. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:18, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Incoming maintenance ==

Just a heads up, our host is going to be doing some maintenance in about an hour that may cause problems with the site, so if you have trouble reaching it and therefore cannot read this message, that's what it is. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:11, 23 November 2022 (EST)

== Foreign names ==

A dispute came up recently on the [[Megatron (ES)]] page. User:Kiké Prime has been providing Hungarian names for all the characters, but this one apparently is just "Megatron". Cyberlink420 removed it. I disputed it, pointing out that not listing it leaves the implication that we do not know the name of the character in the language. Despite having my reversion again reverted, I still find deliberately leaving blanks in our name lists odd. I am thus bringing the matter here for further discussion. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:16, 5 December 2022 (EST)
:My understanding has always been that we only add foreign names if they are different from the English name. Per pages like [[Megatron (G1)]], this includes examples where the name is the same, but is spelled with a diacritic or using a different alphabet. So "Megatron" wouldn't be different enough to justify inclusion, but examples like Mégatron, Megatrón, Мегатрон and メガトロン would. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:10, 5 December 2022 (EST)

== Nonbinary Character Category ==

So, we now have another nonbinary character (who actually used their pronouns during the media no less), [[Nightshade (ES)|Nightshade]] from [[Transformers: EarthSpark (franchise)|Earthspark]] (Nightshade at time of posting doesn't have a page yet)! The other fully for certain fully intentional one is [[Screwball]] from [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] while [[Acid Storm (Cyberverse)|Acid Storm]] was at least an out of media by writer retcon of animation, and [[Overlord_(G1)#Ask_Vector_Prime|Overlord's]] gender is somewhat nebulous on where that fits beyond being gender expansive due to being [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#December 23, 2015|"what some would call genderfluid"]] but that at least puts us at three. Given that we have a trans category now we thought it best to at this point suggestion a nonbinary category for the sake of users (including gender expansive people) easily finding nonbinary characters on here. Obviously adding Nightshade will have to wait until they have a page but any thoughts on this yea or nay? [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 18:28, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:I forgot about Screwball. I think with three confirmed examples, even without the edge case of Overlord, that's probably enough to justify one. Care will have to be taken, however, to only include confirmed examples and not use it as a dumping ground for any character whose gender has never been explicitly identified. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:37, 8 December 2022 (EST)
::Authorial intent and all, but I can say that if I had the option to go back and rewrite it I would have used the term non binary for Overlord. I feel like Acid Storm is more of an edge case; it’s what one person said on their account to justify it. Whenever Acid Storm actually says something they’re animated with a female face; it’s not done at random.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:47, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::Acid Storm changes from masculine male to feminine female and back. Gender-fluid, sure, but definitely non-binary? As for Overlord, in the Legends manga Mega gives Overlord a female-presenting face - is there a pronoun change during that time? Would we have more candidates for inclusion in a Gender-fluid category first? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:17, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::::Thank for the notes folks, that does help to piece this together! Just want to note that a pronoun change is not necessary for a gender being experienced in fluidity to be the one expressed or what have you, so unless the Legends manga actually has some sort of statement about Overlord's fluidity that kind of puts us back with an umbrella term of nonbinary (which we are unsure as not having read the Legends manga if that would work for that Overlord so we can't speak to where/if Overlord falls under gender expansiveness beyond the fact that Overlord's presentation changes depending on the binary bond partner right?). Acid Storm is an edge case yes but if we do count the edge case that they are we think it is worth noting that for Acid Storm what Catt said was specifically that changing expression is just something they do, and "any pronouns" work for Acid Storm, no statement about the binary. Of course, we only see two faces which are the two different Seeker faces that were otherwise delineated by gender, but at this point we're getting into the opt-in thing of 'x person is genderfluid and thus considers themself nonbinary' or 'z person is genderfluid and only considers themself as under the multigender umbrella'. Which we don't have detail on really if Acid Storm is genderfluid as how they know themselves right? Because that's just a thing that was written in the Female Transformers page because of (no blame being given, it's understandable) the user finding that to be the term that fit best? Feel like we've ended up just pointing out an need for just a gender expansive category instead but ah well. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:46, 1 January 2023 (EST)
::::::We seem to have killed this with a non-solution for the nonbinary category by pointing out that gender expansive is more certain than saying genderfluid. If we count Nightshade, Overlord, and Screwball, is that a go on nonbinary, or should we just have a gender expansive category at this point that would also be one trans characters use? For people wondering what gender expansive means you can find a definition here https://www.diversitystyleguide.com/glossary/gender-expansive/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/08/gender-expansive-mean/ [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:18, 6 February 2023 (EST)
:::::::Respectfully, I think needing to invoke a glossary suggests the term is so little-used in common parlance that it would not be useful for our needs and style. We don't have a category tag at the bottom of a bunch of BW characters saying "tetrapods" or "perissodactyls" (we ''do'' talk like that on [[Popular beast alternate modes]], maybe a grouping ''page'' would be a better approach? Just a thought...). If we are looking for a category tag I think it would be better to find the term that unambiguously covers the largest number of candidates, without a need to rely on edge cases, maintaining both accuracy and readability. I see three characters that could sensibly go in a Gender-fluid tag, one that could go in a Non-binary tag (meaning we wouldn't make the latter). We may be facing a case where there are few enough disparate examples that there isn't one single category tag that usefully unites them. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:55, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::::::::With the most recent block of EarthSpark episodes having further explored Nightshade's character and introduced a new nonbinary character in the form of Sam (this also saw the term nonbinary used in the show for the first time), we have been discussing the topic of introducing a Nonbinary characters category on the Discord. Doing some research, AVP also confirmed the Tigerhawk of Primax 496.22 Alpha (the Beast Wars cartoon continuity) to be nonbinary, so that's another character to justify that category. It's been suggested by an expert on the matter that we could introduce a "Gender expansive characters" category as an umbrella category, with Genderfluid characters, Nonbinary characters, and Transgender characters existing as subcategories as a way of future-proofing our coverage of gender expansive characters, while also ensuring we don't lump every gender expansive character together into a single broad category and hopefully making these concepts easier to navigate for casual readers. - [[User:Archforce|Archforce]] ([[User talk:Archforce|talk]]) 17:26, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::In sequence you replied to my post of Feb 7 but seem to have side-stepped the part where I questioned the usefulness of a category tag that will not be widely understood. Also, creating such a category exactly ''is'' "lumping them all together into a single broad category." So is that approach desirable or not? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::: They said the word nonbinary in the show. In a show full of nonbinary rep. And then nonbinary characters exists outside of that show, and it would not be a dangerous bet to expect this to continue. But people are born with an innate understanding of what an Alpha Primax 9384u743 is, or Transmetals, or Powermasters, but not what a nonbinary person is so yeah maybe we are going too far on this website for nerds who want to learn more about things related to Transformers (like nonbinary characters). We have a category called council members. Literally for any character who has served on any council. I did not understand what "council members" actually refered to before I clicked on it, assumed it was more specific than it was, but in fact it took me two seconds to figure it out. A non-binary category and/or gender-expansive category would surely be the same. And as Archforce says, make these concepts easier to navigate. Or if that was too long, what Walky said. Seriously. You also appear to misunderstand what is meant by lumping together. Because putting all non-binary people in a non-binary category is accurate, and is something I and at least some others want, putting all non-binary people on a transgender page would be a misrepresentative "all of these are the same thing right?". Gender-expansive on the other hand comes from someone familiar with the matter, and as a non-binary person myself, as someone who has researched gender representation in media at an honours level (to flex some credentials that yeah I could be making up), I agree with what is being said on the Discord. Gender expansive as an umbrella provides the room to not lump everyone together while recognising yeah there is something shared in any act of gender that is not one of cisgender conformity. Having transgender and nonbinary characters on the same page while called out as two seperate subcategories I again think helps casual readers navigate based on this. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 18:40, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::Not using the best useful terms because they're not understood by enough people is extremely self-defeating. I reject that line of thinking. (also, like, c'mon, the first complete article for this wiki was gaddang Robot-Master, not Optimus Prime, so I think we can say the words "gender expansive" even if someone hasn't heard of them) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:49, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::Thank you all for the discussion! To clarify regarding aesthetics (because gender is aesthetics, we can give recommendations on stuff to read re that), the term gender expansive does not in fact cover everybody, merely all the bots we're talking about it in this instance and likely future unless we get canon transformers fiction that actually uses a variable alien aesthetic system that isn't gender but is something similar. To put this another way: not all human societies' aesthetic category concepts and formulation of individual and collective context for self such as pronouns, names, expressions, (to use Leslie Feinberg's words for navigating transness and gender itself, the 'poetics,' not just construction) etc. used or uses those in a way that neatly fits modern Western gender constructs with a large number of examples both from outside Europe and within it. In a similar vein some xeno aesthetic spectrum folks (like some of ourselves, and yes we're getting very obscure here the gender parallel is xenogender) and speculative fiction/sci-fi about aliens live or navigates the idea of aesthetic structures that are not gender at all but merely overlap or parallel.
:::::::::::Transformers fiction has really only touched on the subject of the alien aspect of the bots' gender or lack thereof when trying to portray that something is there by e.g.; parallel with the embodying and living of their various modes such as when Lodestar speaks to having weapon retrofit dysphoria in the 2021 annual (yes, the 'embodying and living' is something we're borrowing from Gayle Salamon on how she frames gender), their unique histories, the December 23rd 2015 AVP gender answer having a note about continuities where the concept of gender is barely relevant, and possibly that time 'gal' got put in quotations (it's still unclear what Maggs meant by that but that's okay). So rest assured that while gender expansive is a broad category- it only future proofs us until alien terminology or narrative that is clearly shown in replacement of when gender would otherwise be used in a story actually happens in canon. Which would be incredibly exciting, but isn't where we are right now. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:11, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::But we are nonetheless at a special point in time in the transformations of transformers, that the categories genderfluid, nonbinary, and gender expansive would be useful for. <3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:15, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::Gosh that felt good to dedicating an afternoon to doing, thank you for the help! We feel that [[Editor|Chief]] ought to be included in the gender expansive category, and given the entry regarding Tigerhawk that was mentioned here, Spittor arguably also could be [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#May_23.2C_2015|"In some universes where Spittor scans an organic alternate mode, his biological system conforms to female while his Cybertronian gender identity is male."]]. Chief seems fairly obvious? RE Spittor where his situation could be argued to break down is the cybertronian understanding of gender maybe not matching gender and anatomy as framed by humans but then that in itself still qualifies. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:32, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::: *shrugs* maybe the latter re Spittor and similar situations is just something to note in an eventual article rather than to throw in the category itself [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:45, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::I'm gonna say that I'm for Editor while Spittor is ultimately a way of just saying that his alt-mode is a female frog even though he's male. Ala Tigatron in the cartoon, Waspinator, etc. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:57, 5 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::::Thank you, that helps clarify things! :3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:47, 5 March 2023 (EST)

== Adding an informative table to each character page ==
I was thinking about it since it's striking.. lack.. There should be a way to tell people in which and how many episodes/issues/movies each character appears in the continuity they belong to, their debut episode/issue movie, what aliases they have had and nicknames they were given by other characters, a more centered area for the voice or live actors, a link to their gallery pages(if they have any) and one to their disambiguation pages etc. The kind of information that one would prefer to find with greater ease, especially if they aren't members. And talking about their appearances, that should prove quite useful for future page edits, since we'll know exactly where to look especially when it's about latecomers or characters that don't appear on a regular basis. I just think it'd be useful. [[User:Darthrone|Darthrone]] ([[User talk:Darthrone|talk]]) 15:44, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:This kind of infobox was discussed at the very earliest days of this wiki, and it was decided that there was just way, way too much information for it to work... and this was in 2006, BEFORE the franchise exploded. TF is such a fragmented kludge of fictions from multiple sources and creators spanning 40 years that any major character would end up with one ultra-massive thing of dubious use (can't say I see the value in a "number of appearances" tally, aside from the headache of keeping that accurate over time and arguing "what counts"), or a billion splintered ones spread across the page for the different fictions. And "nicknames" is always a minefield as those tend to turn into a massive list of "someone called them this once" which is... not helpful. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:46, 2 February 2023 (EST)
::Even if it had been a day-1 thing, I don't see how this is more informative than our current style. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:58, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:::I'm for infoboxes, but the information you're asking for is far too abstract and meaningless in this franchise. (We are absolutely not doing "nicknames". No.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:09, 2 February 2023 (EST)

==The (BWU) tag==
I understand the reasons why [[#Proposal re: G1 pages|my previous proposal]] regarding the proliferation of (G1) pages for random newer characters was soundly rejected. However, my main motivation for raising it was that I find the huge quantity of (BWU) pages for "repurposed" Mini-Cons and bestial Transformers to be reader-unfriendly, so I wanted to make a case for making an exception for ''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]'' cameos. ''Uprising'' was an obscure barely-canon multi-continuity-drifting web serial which we are very unlikely to get further instalments of, and most of the relevant characters are similarly very deep pulls who will assuredly not be appearing again in future stories, and who will otherwise be stuck with tiny stub-pages forever. Most of these are Mini-Cons (here Micromasters) or bestial Transformers (here Protoformers), with a few boats or Constructicons from "[[Derailment]]". In many cases, I perceive ''Uprising'' as having tried to give these toys a hint of fiction where previously they had none at all, much like [[Ask Vector Prime]] before it. It's a very different phenomenon to most so-called "continuity transplants" we've seen in other series (such as with, say, [[Hot Shot (G1)]]), which are instead rooted in the popularity of those characters.

I think the problem here is that strictly speaking ''Uprising'' is a "Primax" continuity, sure, but it lifts dozens of characters (let alone concepts) unchanged from later stories. Slavishly hewing to that label when it's such an intertextual melting pot has resulted in this unfriendly setup. It feels like a fair decision made at the time (was [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive64#Derailment & Uprising pages|this discussion]] the one?) but in my opinion the wiki's policy kinda fails here. If we get rid of the (BWU) tag, the (G1) back-ports remaining (a minority!) will be for more significant characters, often adapted more radically. Here's the list of tiny pages we could be rid of, just like that:

*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]

There's a handful of ''Uprising'' characters that need a (G1) page anyway for non-''Uprising'' reasons; I'm totally ambivalent about where the ''Uprising'' content ends up for these: [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Override (BWU)]] (!), [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Twirl (G1)]].

Finally there's a few weird cases that would merit individual discussion but would probably just need to keep their own pages: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]].

Here is a ([https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&redirs=1&profile=all&search=%22from+the%22+%22continuity+families%22 probably non-exhaustive]) list of existing cases of multi-continuity drifting you should probably consider before weighing in:
* [[Buckethead]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 31, 2015|this Ask Vector Prime answer]])
* [[Drydock (TF 2010)]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 13, 2015|this answer]] which explicitly has him travel from one continuity to another)
* [[Drelnar Feh'd]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 17, 2015|this one]])
* [[Scorpia (G2)]], [[Autoceptor]], [[Deceptor]], and [[Kaltor]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#June 12, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Clear Skies Team]], [[Rapid Intervention Team]], [[Prehistoric Team]], [[Demolition Team]], [[Dirt Digger Team]], [[Heavy Load (Universe)]] and the [[Mobile Fortification Team]], and [[Detectas]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]]).
**However, exceptions from these Mini-Con teams are [[Nightscream (Cybertron)|Nightscream]], [[Offshoot (Cybertron)|Offshoot]], [[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]] and [[Knockdown (Cybertron)|Knockdown]], who all have separate (Cybertron) basis on the basis of receiving separate bios after being packed in with ''Cybertron'' Primus...
**...but then [[Liftor]] is all on a single page, despite his ''Classics'' bio.
**[[Snarl (Classics)|Snarl]], [[Sledge (Classics)|Sledge]], [[Wideload (Classics)|Wideload]], [[Knockdown (Classics)|Knockdown]], and [[Steel Wind]] already have ''Uprising'' content on their pages, but that makes sense as these were originally ''Classics'' guys.
* The [[Saurian Strike Team]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Minicon 8 Pack]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 24, 2015|this one]])
* The ''Dark of the Moon'' Mini-Cons [[Dualor (DOTM)]], [[Triceradon (DOTM)]], [[Rav (DOTM)]], and [[Catilla (DOTM)]], plus [[Ironlunge]], [[Reptix]], [[Sling (AOE)]], [[Gnashteeth]], [[Wedge Shape]], [[Brimstone (Universe)]], [[Apexus]], [[Gredator]], and [[Dragoyell]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#August 13, 2015|this one]])
** Weirdly, we ''separately'' have a page for [[Rav (BWU)]], but Catilla has Unicron Trilogy, movie, and ''Uprising'' appearances covered all on the one page!
* [[Galadria]] and [[Ramak]] (because of [[Source:Transformers: Spacewarp's Log#December 5, 2015|this post]])
* Am I to understand that [[Wind Sheer (RID)]], [[Skyfire (RID)]] and the [[Dimensional Patrol]] each have just a single page because (RID) ''is'' part of the G1 continuity family sometimes...?
* And I understand that [[Primus Vanguard]] cameos just go on their original pages because that's a weird thing kinda outside of G1 anyway (at least from an in-universe perspective, if not a real-world one).
* ''Diaclone'' examples like [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], and [[Chifumi Takahashi]] have been discussed to death.
* [[Monsterous]] was retconned to originally be from an Aligned universe (in [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#October 21, 2015|this post]], though I can't actually find any mention of Uniend? EDIT: [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#November 7, 2015|found it]]!)
* [[Primacron]] was apparently mentioned in ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II| The AllSpark Almanac II]]''.
* And [[Sentinel Supreme]] is just an Easter egg that everyone seemed to shrug about at the time.

To those who say the exception I'm proposing would be confusing, I submit these existing examples where we've apparently neglected to split something out as evidence that the only people this confuses are wiki editors like me wondering why they're not all that way. Maybe I'm just unaware of some aspect of the existing policy which accounts for all these cases? But is it really helpful to anyone to have a given toy's associated fiction squirrelled away somewhere separate you have to go into the disambiguation to find? We recently merged [[Chromhorn]] (another Sorenson job) on the basis that "There's literally no reason for these to be on different pages. They are the same thing." Can we not do the same for these Sorenson-penned cases that are basically going "look, the exact same guy shows up in multiple universes, alright?" And if the answer is no, will someone go through and split all these out? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:27, 6 February 2023 (EST)

:I think my response to your earlier G1-import proposal still applies here: the more exceptions we make to our system for the sake of "accessibility", the harder the overall structure becomes to grok for a new reader, and thus ironically it all becomes ''less'' accessible. Why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steel Jaw]], but ''Uprising'' Bisk be at [[Bisk (RID)]]? Or, conversely, why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steeljaw (RID)]], but LBS Steeljaw be at [[Steel Jaw|Steeljaw (IDW)]]? Neither solution is good.
:As for the current list of exceptions, I'd argue everything you list from Buckethead to the DOTM Mini-Cons should probably be split. Galadria and Ramak are characters from outside media, so we don't split them across continuity lines. Wind Sheer and Skyfire have one page for consistency with the other RID guys. The source on Monsterous being Aligned is [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#November_7.2C_2015|here]], but I would argue that's just giving an origin to the GoBot and so they should share a page anyway.
:Lastly - I object to you bringing the Chromhorn thing into this, as I don't think it's a fair comparison. Chromhorn wasn't making any exception to our categorisation system; it was one page saying "Chromhorn is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT" and another saying "Chromhorn Forest Type is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT", and the former was somehow a "repurposing" of the fictionless latter. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:24, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::Totally get the Steeljaw example—although it ''is'' crazy that we're currently disambiguating G1 wolf Steeljaw simply by [[Steel Jaw]]. You should post about the disambiguation tag policy change you suggested on Discord, I think a lot of people were thinking along similar lines there. Agree with your interpretation of the current policy as to which of the examples listed should be split and which shouldn't—although the more I think about the Primus Vanguard, the more I think those should technically be split too. While I guess the [[Time Warrior (AVP)|Time Warrior]]s are multiversal travellers like Drydock. RE: Chromhorn, I understand why it's technically different; I brought it up because I think it speaks to the tenor of ''Ask Vector Prime'' answers—in spirit, I think its aim was exactly the same as with the Mini-Con examples I've given.
::What do I mean by that? To match your Steeljaw example, from the opposite angle: say I'm your typical fan scrolling [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)]], and I click on, say, [[Dualor (DOTM)]], wondering if he's ever shown up in anything. In their current state, I get my answer immediately. With the proposed split for consistency, I instead get a page telling me that Dualor (DOTM) is a dinosaur Mini-Con from ''Dark of the Moon'', some info about the toy, ''maybe'' ending with an inscrutable note about how he was "repurposed" as an identical guy. Now, there's ''already'' an unrelated [[Dualor (Armada)]], so we'd need to make a disambiguation page. We can see this already by looking at [[Snow Cat (Universe)]], which is barren (the very scenario AVP so often tried to address!), and doesn't even admit to the existence of [[Snow Cat (BWU)]] aside from a general Snow Cat disambiguation tag. In some existing cases like [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], we've mirrored a toy writeup, which needs upkeep in parallel; in others, like Snow Cat, we're asking the user to visit the other page to read about the toy ''anyway''. To my mind, this is inarguably less accessible. I don't understand arguments made about accessibility here which are predicated on readers having learned editing policy to begin with, and I don't think this proposal would actually make it any harder to learn the system.
::I regret not listing out all the individual members of those Mini-Con teams above, to better communicate the sheer number of pages that would need to be made (and pages that would need to be renamed, in case of conflicts) to create this inconvenience in service of a rule we've already been ignoring without issue. Nobody wants to do this work, and I think it's less that no-one cares, and more that some people think it'd actually make the wiki worse, and the rest don't particularly think it'd make the wiki better.
::What about just making an exception for Mini-Cons/Micromasters? I've talked about ''Uprising'', but obviously the vast majority of cases that theoretically need splitting aren't from ''Uprising'' at all. Could probably even do a generic template like "X exists in multiple continuity families, and is a Micromaster/Maximal/Predacon in those without Mini-Cons". Thus your Steeljaws and Bisks and Overrides go unchanged, no problems or ambiguity there! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
:Once upon a time, I probably would have pushed for something like this, but where we are now: I am not a fan of any push towards treating something differently based on how "relevant" something is or not. It goes against the very spirit this wiki was founded on, because that is what was happening to the Wikipedia coverage of Transformers where they were just getting rid of things wholesale because of "relevancy." I can understand the basic point behind this, but I feel that doing so would set a bad precedent that could be exploited in the future.
:I'd be fine with splitting most of these out. I've said it before elsewhere but by and large a lot of the inconsistencies were largely the result of different contributors adding stuff or splitting stuff without a general consensus, and they haven't been cleaned up afterwards. Also, a minor note, but the Liftor thing was mainly cause no one noticed at the time until I wrote up about the profile years after the fact. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:26, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::If I gave the impression "relevancy" was the main thrust of my argument here, I didn't mean to! Like, it goes both ways—would we be merging because ''Uprising'' is so irrelevant that we shouldn't devote all these random stub pages to it, ''or'' are we merging because it's sufficiently relevant that we shouldn't be hiding that content in stub pages nobody visits? Either is true! I'm arguing for convenience and clarity. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: This definitely feels like the strongest argument to the merge in my mind. The wiki is no stranger to niche pages, pages for nameless, fictionless, toyless nonentities. But I believe these fictionless toys and toyless fiction which are really the same thing would be a richer niche page for the merges. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 20:36, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: I really think that once again, this overrates the number of people who would be confused by this, and underrates the number of people who would be able to figure out where to go if they wish to find the information. Like, I hate to do the whole "I was able to figure it out" thing but I was a small child with a single-digit age when I first discovered the wiki and I was able to figure out pretty quick why it was laid out the way it was. I'm not saying there's no room for improvement; I think there's a lot of cases in which the way we have things set up now is kind of ridiculous. But in this particular case, I don't really see how merging things would be any more convenient than just leaving them the way they are and splitting out the cases that we never got around to. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:52, 7 February 2023 (EST)

Just found some more pages that would need splitting under current policy: [[Crystal Widow]], [[Seawave]], [[Cradon]], [[Freefall (Kre-O)]], [[Liftoff]], and [[Epsilon Holdings]]. All due to ''Uprising'' and ''The Allspark Almanac''. Really hoping someone can propose a solution here that doesn't involve creating a billion pages and disambigs. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 09:24, 18 February 2023 (EST)
:We don't split businesses/locations/organizations, so Epsilon Holdings isn't one we need to consider. Kre-O doesn't really occupy a continuity family in our organization and I would just split the rest, especially Crystal Widow. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:28, 18 February 2023 (EST)

Noticed the ''[[Transformers: Earth Wars| Earth Wars]]'' stub templates on Mini-Con pages for [[Wheeljack Kunai]] and [[Bido]]. The game had previously added [[Gabu]], [[Zori]], [[Baru]], [[Bashbreaker]], [[Windstrike]], and [[Tricerashot]]. Following policy, these should ''all'' be split—see [[Giza (POTP)]] and [[Giza (Prime)]], although to be fair they're not the same animal at least. As always, I think the fiction for those toys should go on the pages for those toys. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 12:39, 17 March 2023 (EDT)

Just finished going through documenting the preliminary bios for the [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Predator Attack Team]], and [[Mini-Con Council of Sages]], from when the ''Classics'' Mini-Cons were still going to be released as ''Cybertron'' two-packs, and it occurs to me that if ''all'' of those guys end up getting duplicate pages, the Unicron Trilogy pages would be where that information should probably end up. Right now it's all a bit of a mess, as some of those characters have (Cybertron) pages via the Primus bonus-pack-in, some don't, and others had their names changed from their would've-been ''Cybertron'' incarnations anyway. I've generally tried to stick to linking to the existing pages rather than redlinking—naturally I remain convinced that it'd be for the best if we didn't distinguish between ''Classics'' and ''Cybertron'' at all in this case and just kept all the relevant information for each of those Mini-Cons on one page per; I think [[Liftor]] is proof that this is in fact perfectly fine and much, much less of a headache for readers. See whatever the hell is going on with the page for the [[Night Rescue Team]], which names the patrol car as "[[Strongarm (Classics)|Strongarm]]/[[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]]" as though that's something which makes any sense at all. Tangentially, I also reckon the material from these early bios (which evidently made it out via the official Hasbro website ''somehow'') should probably just be written up in fiction sections proper, along the lines of, say, cancelled Dreamwave issues...? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:03, 23 April 2023 (EDT)
:The Cybertron Primus pack-in guys had bios written by Sepelak and Troop (who also wrote the bios for the Classics guys) that deliberately made them different characters for the Club website with little in common besides their physical appearances. It's not a case of "old rules" at all, it was something specific done at the time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:28, 23 April 2023 (EDT)

==Wikia links still around?==
https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Smelting_pool&direction=prev&oldid=109505
Are other archived "intermediate / obsolete" edit pages still pointing to Wikia? Or have they been somehow neutralized? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:52, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
:Not exactly sure what you're asking? I mean, the link is literally part of the text in that edit, so it wouldn't be removed. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:25, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
::Is that page (and presumably any other intermediate edit page from those years) still directing search engines to Wikia? Some years ago it was seen as pretty urgent that every last such link be removed, regardless of location. Not "gone from current pages," gone from ''everything''. As I recall, there were even refs to Wikia pre-struck-out on pages so people could only see them in mid-edit, but they were still boosting Wikia's rankings, and an admin had to create a bot to scrape them out of everywhere. If they still persist on hundreds of intermediate edit pages from those years, should those pages be totally erased, as they would be when randos insert porn or hate speech here? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:10, 26 May 2023 (EDT)
:::Historic page revisions are not indexed by Google, so they won't boost Wikia rankings. Those links will be present on any revisions before March 2008, as those revisions are from a backup imported from when the site was on Wikia. We still do have some Wikia links on live pages ([[Miscolorings based on the Generation 1 cartoon]] is an example) but those links will be marked nofollow as all external links are, so they should, in theory, not be boosting Wikia's ranking either. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:04, 26 May 2023 (EDT)

== ROTB being a reboot - what should we do with that? ==

I don't necessarily hold an opinion on this issue, but according to an interview with the director of ROTB, Rise of the Beasts will be a reboot of the live-action movie franchise. Will this affect how existing articles are grouped and written? Or does the wiki just consider it a case of authorial intent? ([https://news.tfw2005.com/2023/05/27/transformers-rise-of-the-beasts-director-steven-caple-jr-confirms-rotb-set-in-a-rebooted-universe-484900 source]) [[User:Gigirassy|Gigirassy]] ([[User talk:Gigirassy|talk]]) 16:19, 27 May 2023 (EDT)
:The wiki is intentionally waiting for the movie's official release to make a stand on the matter. Regardless, even if the movie is a reboot it will not affect the wiki as much as you may be thinking it will; both movie series will simply be considered as two different continuities that are still part of the same continuity family overall (just like the multitude of G1 universes out there that are all in the same family). What may or may not happen is some characters may get splitted pages depending on if there's enough evidence for that, but for now all we can do is just wait and see. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:56, 27 May 2023 (EDT)

== Adaptation notes ==

Can we figure out a way to format this information that isn't an ugly and intrusive note that fucks up the formatting? Like, convert them into storylinks or references. Collapsible notes. Something. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:(also probably take a weed whacker to the insane number of images people try to stuff into those film sections but that's another discussion) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:09, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
::I second that. Though we would also have to find a place to put the extra information those notes sometimes provide about how the adaptation differs from the source material. Like how [[Optimus Prime (Movie)#Transformers film|Optimus Prime]]'s notes on the 07 movie mention he kills Barricade in the adaptations when that doesn't happen in the movie itself. Or the very recent example of how ROTB [[Wheeljack (ROTB)|Wheeljack]] appears [[Mission at the Museum|in a book based entirely on the half of the movie he wasn't supposed to appear in]]. So how will we deal with that? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:40, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Against this. When it comes to an informational wiki, utility should be a higher priority than aesthetic taste. Speaking of aesthetics, however… [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:We can be informative without haphazardly shoving "hey, here's some inconsequential adaptations you likely don't care about" into readers' faces. Not all information is created equal, as we've already established by hiding any VAs that the great majority of readers don't care about. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:41, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

I'd be against this. The notes make it clear that one thing is an adaptation of another, allow differences to be described succinctly without wholesale repetition of an entire story section, and I honestly think a mass of stoylyinks for every movie character in the first 3 Bay films after their write-up would be far more visually obtrusive and difficult to parse than the note that's already there, for example.[[User:AkibaSilver|AkibaSilver]] ([[User talk:AkibaSilver|talk]]) 22:31, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm gonna more or less agree with the above. Storylinks are ''absolutely'' a bad idea once you get beyond, like, two in a row. And I really don't feel like there's ever going to be enough adaptations of any one thing to justify a whole template, where "voice actors in a dozen languages" and "holy crap they redecoed/retooled/rereleased this toy THIS MANY TIMES" certainly can get hugely bulky. And honestly, if they're not a huge list, I like the easy discoverability of keeping them in a note below; hiding them whiffs of "we should de-prioritize the coloring books and not-current media on character pages" that we rejected from the get-go. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:56, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

== Images and formatting ==

Here’s something that baffles me; at least far back as the MP announcement of the Trainbots, there’s been a push by some to remove images from articles for reasons that mostly elude me. I agree that a lot of our older writeups have images that aren’t good, but what I don’t get is the removal of them from sections that only have one image. Sure, a lot of the time it’s for characters that have very minor roles in something, but I’ve always thought that McFeely’s way of making articles (by getting the best possible image of each character in every section whenever possible) is the gold standard for how we make articles. On a loosely related note; I’m not convinced by Sipher’s recent push to align images to the right; I think the alternating thing we usually have is much cleaner (aside from in toy sections). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:29, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
: Opening a section with a left-justified image almost invariably fucks up the normal "flow" of how your eyes move when you reach the end of a line: you move down and ''left'' to the next line. Most of the time, left-justified images at the top of the section push that next line of text to the ''right'' of the header. It may look "better" if you unfocus and just look at the page as a blur, but if you're actually ''reading'' the text, it's a subtle but very there stumbler. If it's a section where there's a "voice actors" bit or a note template ''above'' the image where the end of that is ''definitely'' going to end up beyond the rightmost border of the image, that's fair. ''Every'' image doesn't have to be on the right. Alternating is fine within longer sections. But opening with left should be used sparingly and judiciously. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

==Two things sandboxed a while ago maybe we might consider==
*[[User:M Sipher/Sandbox:ToysBullets]]
*[[User:M Sipher/sandbox:ToypageAltmodesAdded]]
I mean I'm not gonna lie, these are both in the "oh my grodd so many pages" realm, and worse, they're not something we can really get a bot to do. But, Iunno, something to consider.<br>
The insignia bullet point thing on individual character pages, only so many characters have toys across multiple factions (most would have G1/G2 variants), so this doesn't feel as "important" an addition, but, well. Could be useful. Adding altmodes to the toyline page listings, however, I think there's a decent case for, especially when dealing with obscure toy-only characters in lines loaded to the gills with toys. It'll certianly help the "man I remember I had this cool toy what was its name" searches. And it involves tweaking considerably fewer pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:09, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm in favor of the first from a readability standpoint. It just looks better. On the alt modes, I worry it might open the door to edit skirmishes on some of the more vague vehicle modes out there (thinking specifically of Devcon that just came out, or things that are just indeterminate like Cybertron Menasor or Protoform Optimus/Starscream), that just "Cybertronic car/jet/whatever" isn't a common term people outside the Wiki would really think to search, and how specific we'd need to get a la "truck" versus "longnose truck" versus "Peterbilt 379 truck". Hard to call, in my opinion.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 23:37, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
::The bullet points hit me a little weird at first but I could get used to them, I think it's a neat idea. And I can see the inclusion of alt modes in toy pages as something useful, though no doubt a lot of pages would have to be slightly rearranged to make room for them. Regardless, I'd gladly give a hand with some of the editing if either one gets approved. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 09:46, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
::: RE: altmodes on toyline pages... As far as "arguments" go, you get those ''anyway''. I think for these pages we can afford a bit of looseness ("red Lamborghini" for 1984 Sideswipe since there's a lot of sports cars (and two Lambos) in that line/assortment, "blue sports car" for Cyb Hot Shot since there are fewer "sports cars" in that line), giving enough for a quick ID'ing. Spacing... yeah, this will stretch the pages vertically a bit, but like, that's generally fine if the space has ''information'' in it. Plus it will likely mean we can add another pic to the right-hand side of many sections, letting us give a few more examples. And it'll beef up the absolutely anemic sections slightly. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 01:53, 29 June 2023 (EDT)
:So, anyone got any objections to these, other than "holy hell that's a lot of manual work"? If anything, it'd also be a good excuse to go in and find out what entries are in need of some sprucing up and getting to today's standards... properly sorting the features into cohesive paragraphs, moving release dates to bullet points, trimming excess or filling out light writeups, making sure links to other toys have the proper anchors, etc. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:32, 4 July 2023 (EDT)
::The faction symbols look neat, no issue there. ''Really'' dislike the alt-mode descriptions on the toyline pages; it's a huge amount of visual noise for very little informational gain, not even to mention the actual work involved. I honestly think they would be very error-prone as a rule, or at the very least lead to some extremely tiresome debates—for example, you've labelled Soundwave/Sideways as "Cybertronian" jets, but my understanding is that they're not Cybertronians at all...? Even until pretty recently, I often find myself clicking links on toy pages only to find that they've been broken by the epidemic of "/toys" splits (and then the subsequent merges now that that's being corrected!); so far as I'm concerned, if you're consistently able to click a link on a toyline page and immediately jump to a write-up with an actual image of the toy in question, that'd be far more useful than a brief indicator of alt-mode, especially considering most readers are going to know that Starscream probably turns into "a jet". Something else this has brought to mind for me, though—for the ''Cybertron'' toyline, could be nice to have extra faction bullets for the various Cyber Key types they came with! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:53, 6 July 2023 (EDT)
::: Late to the party, but I've seen some of the faction bullets have been implemented in some character articles and I really like how they look. I think it will also help in the long run with figures that are marketed as a certain faction on Hasbro's websites or packaging, but not on the toy itself or utilized in any fiction. Like, for example: ''Studio Series'' Sentinel Prime. His packaging features a Decepticon insignia, while his instructions feature an Autobot insignia, which means the toy is marketed as both factions, even if both insignia are absent on the toy itself. The alt-mode descriptors, on the other hand, are a no from me, better to leave those kinds of specifics to the toy write ups themselves, as some toy listings in toyline articles are already pretty cluttered as it is, due to all of the characters included in some sets. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:20, 5 August 2023 (EDT)

== Alternators/Binaltech headers on toy pages ==

It feels like something from the old days of the wiki that has become outdated by our modern standards. Binaltech is not its own toyline, it's just the Takara version of Alternators, as reflected by both lines [[Transformers: Alternators|sharing the same page]]. So I propose we stop using "Alternators/Binaltech" headers on toy pages. Keep "Binaltech" on characters that ''only'' have Takara toys and standardize to just "Alternators" on all pages with either only Hasbro toys or both Hasbro and Takara toys. To use similar examples, we only have "[[Fortress Maximus (RID)#Car Robots|Car Robots]]" and "[[Lockdown (RID)#Adventure|Adventure]]" headers on Takara-only toy pages, while all other pages have "Robots in Disguise (2001)" and "Robots in Disguise (2015)" regardless of if they have Takara toys or not. There's no "Robots in Disguise/Car Robots" or "Robots in Disguise/Adventure" headers. So can we please start using the same standard to Alternators? --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 14:58, 29 June 2023 (EDT)

== Energon Universe coverage ==

With Void Rivals #2 due out next week, I think we need to start a discussion about how much coverage we give non-TF issues in the Energon Universe. This isn't like IDW where the shared universe element came years later; we're starting out on the ground floor, with Transformers part of the universe from the very first released issue. It's going to be closely involved with all the comics going forward, so I think we need to figure out if we're going to cover everything, and if not, what qualifies for coverage. For example, it sounds like Energon is going to be a recurring element in both Void Rivals and G.I. Joe. Is that alone enough to qualify, or do there need to be actual Transformers characters? I think we need to start asking these sorts of questions so we can figure out the scope of our coverage. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:39, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I'm fine with covering everything. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 23:42, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I am also in favor of covering it all, the universe has established immediately that Transformers seem to be intrinsic to it, and this way we can keep all reading to one wiki. [[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 23:46, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
::Agreed. They are presenting it as a shared, intrinsically connected universe - and yeah it's called the Energon Universe so that's very clearly transformery to us unless energon moves on from here to be a generic hasbroverse term, which we doubt. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:52, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:Yeah. I think "cover everything" is the best approach to begin with, and then if we want to discuss splitting things off at a later date we can do that. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 00:00, 11 July 2023 (EDT)
:Nothing against a "cover everything" either. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 00:53, 12 July 2023 (EDT)

==Stock image sizes==
Okay, I wanted to bring this up before going on a revertathon but... is there ANY need for HD stock imagery here? Frankly, 4000x2000 images at nearly a meg each seems like absolute overkill and just adding incrementally to server load (good god various Optimuses' toy pages are bad enough as it is, we prolly shouldn't be doing things to make that worse). We just need images big enough to be clear, we're not here to archive print-quality images. I've been sticking to a general 600px vertical with the odd 700px for bigger/more involved toys when doing pics, and like, that sure seems more than fine. Once you hit 1000px it feels real excessive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:01, 3 August 2023 (EDT)

== Video game cameos ==

{{collist|2|
*[[Kunai]]
*[[Sawtooth (G1)]]
*[[Tricerashot (G1)]]
*[[Windstrike (G1)]]
*[[Zori (G1)]]
*[[Bashbreaker (G1)]]
*[[Baru (G1)]]
*[[Bido (G1)]]
*[[Gabu (G1)]]}}

I'm not seeing the point in being persnickety about continuity families when it comes to mobile game cameos, especially when said game already has established characters from other continuity families. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:52, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:If you bothered to do some due diligence, you would know these guys are selectable for individual play, not "cameos". As long as our continuity family policy remains in place, they merit pages just as ''Prime'' Knock Out's G1 transplant does. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:56, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
::Dude, they're support units without any real role in the story (which, again, includes multiversal travelers already). That's cameo level to me. It's not comparable to Knock Out. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:04, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:::Late, but they're definitely not cameos. The COMBAT bots frequently have their own dialogue and play a part in the event storylines. They're probably ''exactly'' the same situation as Knock Out, who so far as I can tell was introduced without any fanfare as to whether he's a native to the ''Earth Wars'' universe or a dimension-hopper. The same even appears true of "Breakdown Prime"! In the past, when characters from other continuities have shown up, there's always been lots of hullabaloo in the dialogues explaining where they've come from. It's silly to make definitive claims one way or another until we successfully scrape the scripts from the last couple of years and can read everything, so under current wiki policy unless someone can produce dialogues where Windstrike says "whoa, this Earth Wars universe is crazy, not at all like my home reality!" we just have to assume they're G1 versions of those characters and give them separate pages. Personally, I would actually ''agree'' that it's really silly to have created all of these tiny stub pages for these so-called "continuity transplants", and even brought up the fact earlier on the Portal that nobody had seemed to consider it problematic when they were all just lumped in on the Aligned pages, but if this is how it's gotta be then someone who feels strongly about the split oughta commit to having the coverage on the G1 pages, not the Aligned pages, and disambiguate between them properly. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:14, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Subcategory trimming ==

Looking at some of our character categories, such as the subcats under [[:Category:Generation 1 Autobots]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Decepticons]], I'm starting to wonder if all of these are strictly necessary. I think there's merit to having categories for whole franchises, but I'm unsure whether we necessarily need to add more categories for inclusion in specific media or toylines, like "G1 cartoon Autobots" or "G1 toy Decepticons"; after a while, it starts to feel a little excessive and perhaps even counterproductive. Thoughts? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:44, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:On the one hand, with "G1" being basically Brobdingnagian in scope, I think media/toyline subcategorization is definitely important... but I'm unsold in either direction on if the Autobot/Decep split in said subcats are necessary. I ''will'' put forward the argument ''for'' the subcategorization that categories are a very helpful method of quick-checking "who's in group x", especially with something as massive as "the Marvel comics cast". Looking for obscure comic Decepticons to maybe feature in something is a lot easier when you don't have to fish through a list that also includes every obscure comic-only Autobot. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:: I"m good for keeping "Generation 1 cartoon" and "Marvel comic" categories the way we do with Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 characters (although I think that the Marvel category should be merged with the preexisting [[:Category:Regeneration One Decepticons]] into a single "Marvel Comics continuity" category). "Generation 1 toy" seems... less necessary to me. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:31, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
::: The [[:Category:Generation 1 Seekers]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Aerialbots]] categories are good and useful categories to me, as the subgroup is the main thing, in these cases (IMO), and the subgroups have been divided on the franchise/continuity-family level.--[[User:Karanseraph|Karanseraph]] ([[User talk:Karanseraph|talk]]) 12:25, 25 August 2023 (EDT)
I would definitely dump the Regeneration One categories. It's just a miniseries, and not a very impactful one at that. Plus, 99% of those characters are already in Marvel G1 anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:30, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Wiki Format ==

I have a question regarding the set-up of this site. It is one of the only ones I've seen not using fandom and has a nice set up. The Gundam fandom users are talking about maybe moving off of fandom, and this site has shown promising to be a potential new site if a similar format can be created but changed to be Gundam style. I know of someone who "runs" the wiki, and would like to possibly get in contact with them to look at this and see if its plausible replacement for that. If anyone can do something like that, or if it's not possible to use this format like that, then please lmk, thnx! (PS: I'm on the discord, GrootimusPrime, if that would be easier contact as that's also how I'll probably get the Gundam wiki spokesperson to see.) [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 11:29, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
:The skin we use is just one of the standard skins that comes with Mediawiki (Monobook) with some styling applied. If they have someone who is expert at tweaking stylesheets, they should be fine doing that, though there are other standard skins they could also look at tweaking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:05, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
::Alright thanks, Ill look into that and relay to Iserlohn. Thanks! [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]])
What hosting service is used? While I'm not quite sure of preferences of admin, I'm just looking into cheaper hosts that can run this wiki to be good and useable for all editors, as they span most of the world, centering around Asia and America. (PS. If anyone knows Fandom gund-wiki users, please keep this on the low-down, we are attempting to keep this relatively low-key as there has been problems between ours and their teams. Thanks.) [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:55, 12 September 2023 (EDT)
:We're hosted by Linode. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:04, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

== Include these? ==

I feel like on fiction related pages, we should include major event sections (so readers don't have to spend 10h scouring the page for info). And maybe we also should indicate some characters' debut (and also indicate when it is the first time a char appears on that continuity, like hot rod debuting in the movie, then state which ep he debuted in the show proper, and so on so forth).[[User:Poliwag06|Poliwag06]] ([[User talk:Poliwag06|talk]]) 19:26, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
:I feel like this would be more character based, as there are subcategories, mostly of continuities and such, but then major events would typically be character based, as outside of debuts, most characters major events are different than others and arent shared.[[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 10:15, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

== Gundam ==

So I've noticed a few references to Gundam here, and a few important people mentioned regarding it, but the links all go to the wiki page which isn't really that helpful, so I was wondering if I could possibly make a new page for it similar to like the go-bots where it gives a gist of it and directs to mentions of people related to it in here? [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:26, 21 September 2023 (EDT)

Talk:Fortress Maximus (G1)

2023-09-19T20:19:58Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Cog */ new section

==Untitled==
Could use an entry in the notes that collects all of Grimlock's comic-series malanyms like Forktongue Maxiface, in addition to the Fruitloop Multipuck mentioned in the body. [[User:Dvandom|Dvandom]] ([[User talk:Dvandom|talk]])

"Sadly, Galen's first view of view was also his last." Could someone rephrase that so it makes sense? [[User:68.190.81.14|68.190.81.14]] 20:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Much of the entry for Fort Max's Marvel section don't involve Fort Max much at all, and reads more like an extended summary of the first Headmasters comic issue. This should definitely be pared down. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
:Personally, I think it looks fine. After all, most of Fortress Maximus's character development was in the Headmasters mini-series, so naturally most of the info on the page would come from there. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 21:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
::The CURRENT entry in his Marvel Comics section is fine. The old entry on the wrong page, which is now at [[Ring of Hate!]], is more of a page-by-page summary of the comic, and not a good Fortress Maximus Marvel Comics entry, as it digresses too much into things other characters are doing. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:26, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
:::Ah, OK. Gotcha. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 21:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

== Too many Personalities. ==

The opening paragraph here, which is supposed to be continuity free, really only applies to Marvel comic (and maybe DW a little) Fort Max. As he has several distinct incarnations: Mindless Big-Smashy-thing (Cartoon), Warrior for Peace (Comic) and Confident starship commander and super-hero (Japanese. Should he not get an abbreviated first paragraph and one of those ''"He different in different places"'' notes like Blaster and Chromedome have? Yes?

:I think all versions of Fort Max, in some way, 'checked out' out the war. Marverl left for Nebulos, Dreamwave shut down, Headmasters led a colony to leave the war-town Cybertron... that's the constant core for Fort Max's character in all continuities- he's a cut-and-run Democrat.-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 16:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

== "Impenetrable fortress" ==

I'm a bit puzzled by the description of Fort Max's toy. [http://tfracetrack.com/instructions/g1/autobot/fortmax.jpg Here are his US instructions] - there's no mention an "impenetrable fortress" mode, and the "battle station" mode they describe ''is'' how he appeared in starship mode in the ''Headmasters'' anime. Did the Japanese instructions present a different transformation for the starship that the cartoon didn't use, or something? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
:1987 toy catalog. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 21:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

::Aaah! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 21:28, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

== Japanese names ==

I'm wanting to add a note that in Japan, the "Spike" figure was renamed "Cerebros", but don't know where to put it.

Also, can somebody who can read Japanese tell me if the specs have the Headmaster partners as the actual Transformer or a partner? I ask because in the Japanese boxes and instructions, the headmaster figures have the same names (or close enough) as the Hasbro releases.

[[Image:Japanese Weirdwolf Specs.jpg|250px|Optimus Prime. For reals.]]

[[Image:Japanese Snapdragon Specs.jpg|250px|Optimus Prime. For reals.]]

--[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 15:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh, yea the Headmaster's names are just wierd like that, some are changed to shortened versions of their Transecter's names but not all.
*Spike=Cerebros
*Stylor=Chrome
*Duros=Ros
*Gort=Gorter
*Arcana=Carna
*Lord Zarak=Scorponok
*Grax=Grax
*Monzo=Monzo
*Vorath=Vorath
*Spasma=Spasma
*Krunk=Krunk

IIRC When they weren't Bonded with their Transector in the Cartoon, they still went by it's name instead of their own, but I'm to 100% sure.

== "Crackhead"? ==

I personally think the word "crackhead" used on this page and others is overly harsh. Am I free to remove it?
[[User:JW|JW]] 21:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
:I guess I'm not opposed to the idea, but how is it overly harsh? You've seen these dubs, right? [[User:Chip|Chip]] 21:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
::I think it's wierd and awkward english. Elsewhere we call it the 'Cracked-out' Maylay dub, not the Crackhead Maylay dub. I'm changing it to reflect that. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
::No, I haven't seen them, but [shrug] it still seems kinda hostile. [[User:JW|JW]] 01:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
:::Well, are you willing to go through and remove EVERY "Crackhead Maylay" reference on the Headmasters, Masterforce, Victory, and Zone character? 'Cause its not like the word is just used on Fort Max.--[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 23:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
::::"Crackhead" only appears in 15 places in the wiki. Wouldn't take long to remove or rephrase. (But I want to get some kind of consensus first.) [[User:JW|JW]] 01:25, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
:::::I agree that "crackhead" is probably not such a good term to be using to describe that. Better to change it to something else. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 02:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Terminally insane? Completely whacked-out? Just spitballing.--[[User:Chiasaur11|Chiasaur11]]
:How does Kil feel about 'cracked-out'? (I wasn't aware anyone was using Crackhead for the RTM dub) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
:I'm pretty sure who originally wrote that had a brainfart and meant "crackpot". [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] ([[User talk:Takeshi357|talk]]) 22:00, 24 December 2015 (EST)

::You're replying to a conversation that took place roughly 8 years ago. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 22:09, 24 December 2015 (EST)
:::It's what I do. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] ([[User talk:Takeshi357|talk]]) 02:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)

== Things that connect ==

Shouldn't we list which robots can connect to Fort Max, like Motormaster or Megabolt?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 17:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

== Really ODD redirects? ==
"Fullstrength Motleypuss" and "Forktongue Maxiface"?! --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:09, 8 November 2009 (EST)
:[[Totaled!#Items of note]] :3 --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:15, 8 November 2009 (EST)
::Man, what were they drinking back then? I want some. Thanks, Jeysie. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:42, 8 November 2009 (EST)
:::Welcome! I always love how much weird crap there is in Transformers canon. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:47, 8 November 2009 (EST)

== UK Release? ==

I remember reading somewhere a long time ago (possibly on one of Rob Jung's list) that Fort Max was released in the UK in a very limited fashion - somewhere between 5 and 15 at either Hamley's or Harrods. Was there any truth to this, does anyone know? And if it is verified, is it worth a mention? It might also explain why he's strangely absent from Worlds Apart. [[User:Street Heat|Street Heat]] 10:14, 2 November 2011 (EDT)

:I definitely remember seeing him in Hamley's in early 1994 (and I suspect I'm the source for the list but remember nothing about being super limited) with one out of the box for kids to play with and pester their parents. But that was years later and part of the G2 display. Others have the same memory. [http://tmukhub.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=toysmerch&action=display&thread=5953&page=2] [http://forums.thedigitalfix.com/forums/showthread.php?s=13e39fc04fc0a7ee33e391e1d4cb029d&p=7383319#post7383319]
:As for Worlds Apart, Furman has since said in interviews that it was one of the few times Hasbro UK got their act together and specifically requested certain characters so it's probable that he had a specific list of who needed advertising. Some of the Targetmasters have their colours mixed up, suggesting working from pre-release materials. [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] 19:28, 27 November 2011 (EST)

== Alt Color Scheme origin? ==

There's a note about his weird red highlighted colors in a few Marvel issues. Did we not just recently see a prototype or something that showed where it came from? I could swear this just came to light recently but I can't recall where I saw it. Anyone? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 20:59, 19 April 2012 (EDT)

:Maybe it was this?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 12:23, 23 April 2012 (EDT)

http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/attach/4/0/5/9/7/Fortress-Maximus-Prototypes-2_1315944004.jpg

==Dai Atlas?==
How come Fort Max's new design in More than Meets the Eye seems so [[Dai Atlas (G1)| familiar?]] [[User:Ed|Ed]] 14:14, 11 July 2012 (EDT)
:Because you're blind? --[[User:Nu-Priest|Nu-Priest]] 14:21, 11 July 2012 (EDT)
:No, the Dai Atlas in The Transformers: Drift had a similar head design and chest as Fort Max. Right? [[User:Ed|Ed]] 16:26, 11 July 2012 (EDT)
::Wrong. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 19:14, 11 July 2012 (EDT)
:How? They look ''somewhat'' similar and he pulled off an Overlord once. [[User:Ed|Ed]] 13:47, 12 July 2012 (EDT)
::They don't. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 15:35, 12 July 2012 (EDT)

== ALTernity Today ==

''the Alt2Day website didn't undergo the Hasbro approval process so we haven't been counting it as canon for wiki purposes'' -McFeely
:But Hasbro approved the links to the website which appeared in the book, right? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 15:23, 23 July 2012 (EDT)

== Size ==
His toy has officially been beat out in terms of biggest Transformers toy ever, thanks to the upcoming FOC Metroplex toy. By a mere 2 inches, too. [[User:Zephyr79|Zephyr79]] 02:30, 10 February 2013 (EST)

== Super-God Masterforce cartoon ==

[[image:Masterforce ep23 FuzzyFortress.JPG|right|thumb|The disputed character]]
I'm pretty sure the character pictured and described under [[Fortress_Maximus_(G1)#Super-God_Masterforce_cartoon|Super-God Masterforce cartoon]] was supposed to be [[Grand Maximus]]. He has a blue tint to his face that Fortress didn't have. I can check the ending credits for verification if requested. [[User:Evan1975|Evan1975]] 15:29, 6 April 2013 (EDT)
:I just checked: He's listed in the end credits as "Grand"! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:21, 6 April 2013 (EDT)
:: I thought so! Thanks! [[User:Evan1975|Evan1975]] 21:47, 7 April 2013 (EDT)
::Have you made sure Grand's VA doesn't get credited in ''every'' episode? [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] ([[User talk:Takeshi357|talk]]) 09:18, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:::...What? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:05, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:::: It's simple enough; if every major recurring character gets voice credit in every episode regardless of whether they're actually in it, that alone is not sufficient evidence it's supposed to be Grand, since Grand actually appears in other episodes. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] ([[User talk:Takeshi357|talk]]) 04:58, 22 December 2015 (EST)
:::::Okay. He isn't. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:02, 22 December 2015 (EST)
::::::Fair 'nuff. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] ([[User talk:Takeshi357|talk]]) 22:01, 24 December 2015 (EST)

=="Unknown QC Issue" on Encore FortMax==

Can someone please mention about that "Quality control issue" on the Encore toy? [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 12:46, 18 February 2016 (EST)

== Cog ==

Is cog Fortress' toes in the intro photo or am I trippin? [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 16:19, 19 September 2023 (EDT)

Talk:Rung (G1)

2023-09-14T14:24:27Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Episodes */ new section

Hey, I've been rereading Eugenesis, and Rung is referenced by Soundwave in it as a psychologist. I was wondering what our policy is for a case like this, where a character originates in what is technically fanfiction and then graduates to official canon. Does this merit a mention? --[[User:Nu-Priest|Nu-Priest]] 11:56, 31 May 2010 (EDT)
:There is this: [[Fandom#Adopted_fan_terminology]]. However, I don't think that's exactly the case here, more like an author canonizing his own work. Maybe a trivia note on this page.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:00, 31 May 2010 (EDT)
==I found Rung elsewhere==
In Transformers: Drift issue 4, when Dai Atlas is sending the city to attack, Rung appears among the crowd. lobythelegend 21:39, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
:Rung was designed by Alex Milne. Alex Milne drew the Drift miniseries. Milne's designs tend to share certain elements. The end. - [[User:Cattleprod|Cattleprod]] 23:19, 2 July 2012 (EDT)
:So does this mean this should be added to the main article? Something like Sometime during the war, Rung was part of the Circle of Light and went to attack the alien slavers when Dai Atlas decided to? [[User:Ed|Ed]] 12:13, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
::No. Also, '''where''? I just checked the scene in question and have found no one who looks even ''remotely'' like Rung. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 12:40, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
::When Dai Atlas just got the city out of the ground and shouting "Cybertronians! For Crystal City!" [[User:Ed|Ed]] 12:52, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
:::Yeah, thanks Captain Obvious. I mean where in the scene. I looked it over and there is no sign of Rung or anyone that looks even slightly remotely close to being ressembling Rung even when you're half-blind and squinting and in the perfect light of the winter solstice. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:00, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
::The guy next to Dai Atlas' kneeling leg. One leg is bent, right? The one thats red and orange. [[User:Ed|Ed]] 13:05, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
:::...That guy doesn't look a damn thing like Rung. The head is completely different, the body construction is completely different, the kibble is completely different, the only things even remotely close to being similar are some aspects of the coloration and the circle in the chest. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 13:08, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
Detour is right, Drift issue 4 was out Oct 2010 and Milne's concept art is signed 2011. Milne also states on his Deviant Art page that this was for approval for James Roberts (i.e. for Chaos Theory/ MTMTE not the Drift mini-series). Besides that can't be Rung, he has no eyebrows!
::Ok, I guess I got the wrong guy. [[User:Ed|Ed]] 14:16, 3 July 2012 (EDT)

==Something's up==
Okay, I apologize for this if it's marked as speculation and therefore removed, but there's some details about Rung that aren't on the wiki that I think deserve to be, but I don't know where best to put them. The guy has an ID code of 1,000,000 exactly, something marked as impressive by Red Alert. He's somehow spent at least 6 million years healthy and safe until Cyclonus sliced his arm off miraculously clean, and Ratchet finds it remarkable. He seemingly has a brighter spark than ''Rodimus "Ex-Matrix Bearer" Prime''. Obviously, none of this stuff will be elaborated on until Roberts decides to elaborate on them, if ever. To me, it's all pretty darn weird put together like that. [[Special:Contributions/24.11.110.62|24.11.110.62]] 17:15, 3 July 2012 (EDT)
:I agree, Rung seems way too important just to kill off so quickly, I suspect there is more to the story yet to come. That is just speculation of course but the fact that he has been around so long, has been so lucky (up until MTMTE at least) makes me think these points are clues to something greater...[[User:Mister Jazzz|Mister Jazz]] 11:24, 8 July 2012 (EDT)

==Psy-ops?==
Where (other than this article) is he referred to as a psy-ops specialist? Looking back through his appearances, I'm constantly seeing him referred to as a psychologist or psychiatrist, not psy-ops - ie, he's concerned with the mental welfare of the Autobots, not with propagandizing Decepticons and Neutrals, or attempting to demoralize the Decepticons.[[User:Kamino Neko|Kamino Neko]] 06:31, 7 December 2012 (EST)
: I was just copying from the earlier version when I made the newer intro, so if there's no mention of him being psy-ops anywhere, feel free to change the hell out of it. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:56, 7 December 2012 (EST)
:: Yeah, since I can find no reference to Psy-ops in the book, or the linked material, I'm going to change that. [[User:Kamino Neko|Kamino Neko]] 09:36, 7 December 2012 (EST)

==Alt Mode==
The article makes mention of the uniqueness of Rung's alternate mode, but does nothing to demonstrate it. As I have neither the equipment to scan comics nor the familiarity with the IDW continuity to know where the best glimpse of Rung in his alt mode can be found, I leave the matter of dealing with this (or electing not to) to more capable hands. [[User:Nemesis Primal|Nemesis Primal]] ([[User talk:Nemesis Primal|talk]]) 01:08, 29 March 2014 (EDT)
:[[File:MTMTE22 Rung's alternate mode.jpg|thumb|250px]]The issue it appears in isn't covered by the article yet. I'll just leave this here anyway. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 01:25, 29 March 2014 (EDT)
::Thanks for handling that. Consider yourself lauded. [[User:Nemesis Primal|Nemesis Primal]] ([[User talk:Nemesis Primal|talk]]) 00:04, 31 March 2014 (EDT)

==New Main pic?==
There's gotta be a better full-body shot of Rung somewhere. Heck, that panel of him whistling on his scooter would make a better main pic than the "I just got strangled" pose. --[[User:Nu-Priest|Nu-Priest]] ([[User talk:Nu-Priest|talk]]) 15:21, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
:Just bringing this up again...there's gotta be a better shot of Rung somewhere. The current main pic feels like a placeholder. Any takers? --[[User:Nu-Priest|Nu-Priest]] ([[User talk:Nu-Priest|talk]]) 19:22, 5 February 2017 (EST)
:: The only full body picture is in MTMTE 38 when he's captured by the Functionalists. [[User:Shywarp|Shywarp]] ([[User talk:Shywarp|talk]]) 22:03, 12 February 2017 (EST)

==Duplicated Rung==
Rung's history currently states that when the Lost Light duplicated, Rung was not actually duplicated along with it due to being Primus. However, this isn't actually stated anywhere in the comics, isn't noted in the trivia for [[slaughterhouse]], and actually would seem to be contradicted by the fact that Rung vanishes along with the rest of the original Lost Light crew as they get close to the duplicate ship (not to mention the fact that explicitly both ships are the original and neither is the duplicate, because quantum). Is there a source for this that just isn't being cited, or is this speculation that worked its way into the page? -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 20:45, 8 March 2020 (EDT)
:Thanks to [[User:Grum|Grum]] for providing a source; I've updated the page to clarify what happened (or rather, what didn't happen) and include the proper citation. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 18:47, 12 March 2020 (EDT)

== Episodes ==

The formatting for the episodes/comics in Rungs page are formatted oddly, as being just links rather than in the small boxes they normally appear in, and I've seen this in a few other places. Is that a design choice or something that needs to be fixed?[[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 10:24, 14 September 2023 (EDT)

User:SkywarpsTwin

2023-09-12T14:17:19Z

SkywarpsTwin: Created page with "Discord:PrimeTarget01 I just like transformers yk. Gave me my discord and some other usernames lol. Also like Gundam, like a lot. Still relatively new to the whole wiki editin..."

Discord:PrimeTarget01
I just like transformers yk. Gave me my discord and some other usernames lol. Also like Gundam, like a lot. Still relatively new to the whole wiki editing stuff.

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2023-09-12T14:15:48Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Include these? */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. For less wide-reaching subjects, either use articles' individual talk pages or [https://discord.gg/tfwiki our Discord server].

Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Site Logo revamp ==

Up until now, our rotating logo on the main page tends to have a batch of logos pointing to pages from the most recent franchises and series, plus a few from older franchises that we forgot or didn't bother to remove. I'd like to rework this system a bit to have a more even balance franchise-wise. I think we should have one character for every franchise that has had a cartoon or movie (including the JG1 shows), plus one from each of the major English-language comic runs (Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 at the bare minimum). This would be a good way to demonstrate the breadth of the franchise scope of the wiki, and help drive new readers towards legacy content. (Of course, we'd still have a few extra banners based on whatever is currently running for the "Hey, I know that guy!" factor. Would love to get some thoughts on this, and potentially character suggestions for each franchise. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:59, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:I think this is a great idea! Though, I'm unsure on which characters from each show would be good to use. Like, would we go most popular/memorable characters or just some really random left field obscurities like G1 Skids who appeared in only two episodes of ''The Transformers'', just to get some more eyes on character articles from franchises newer fans may not be fully aware of? Also, would Japanese-exclusive shows include ''Go!'', ''Q-Transformers'' and ''Robotmasters''? If so, maybe even an image from ''Portal'' (the Russian show) would be worthwhile too. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:47, 18 December 2021 (EST)
::Obscure/minor stuff risks just being the GO! Boxes again, and we already have those. For the big logo, best to go with majorish characters from majorish media. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 07:19, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:This sounds like a great idea. We could break it down like this:
G1 Seasons 1 and 2 - Optimus Prime,
TFTM/G1 Seasons 3 and 4 - Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime,
G1 Marvel - Ratchet,
Headmasters - Fort Max,
Masterforce - Minerva,
Victory - Star Saber,
Idk if we would do Zone or any of the Japanese G1 stories that came after,
Beast Wars - Megatron,
Beast Wars II - Lio Convoy,
Beast Wars Neo - Magmatron,
RID/Car Robots - Side Burn,
I've never read Dreamwave so I don't know a good character that represents it,
Unicron Trilogy - Hot Shot,
IDW could be broken into a few character reps because of how long it went on,
IDW Furman Era - IDW Bumblebee,
IDW Post Furman - IDW Galvatron,
IDW MTMTE/LL - Nautica,
IDW RID/OP - IDW Optimus Prime,
Animated - Bulkhead,
Movies - Bumblebee,
WFC Games - Bruticus,
Prime - Starscream,
RID15 - Strongarm,
Cyberverse - Windblade,
WFC Trilogy - G1 Megatron,
And then we can have a few slots open for characters from the latest shows/movies. This list would give new readers an idea on how big the franchise truly is and how diverse the characters are. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Certainly if anyone's gonna represent CR/RiD'01, it's gonna be Sky-Byte, the breakout star of the show, and not Side Burn, the Autobot womanizer. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:26, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Funilly enough I meant to put him there lol. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 20:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Dreamwave, I'd pick War Within Grimlock. Certainly Shockwave should be part of 2005 IDW since he's responsible for the whole sha-bang.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] ([[User talk:MistaTee|talk]]) 18:40, 5 January 2022 (EST)

== Splitting Cloud characters ==

So now we have some sorta adequate translations, I'm being increasingly convinced that merging them just on the basis of AVP was a mistake and that the Cloud characters should be split out for simplicity and ease of explanation. Notably, the central conceit is far more similar to TransTech than G1—and more different to G1 than Cyberverse, for instance. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:44, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I was against it then and I'm against it now. They're nothing like the TransTech; they are practically nigh identical to the G1 guys, there's a war going on in their universe, and the "central conceit" of them being multiversal guardians is more akin to Alternity than it is to TransTech, who for the majority of their fiction were at most passive observers. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I am declining to weigh in personally until I finish first pass translations but please at least pretend to look over the translated material before repeating the same arguments. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:19, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::I have looked over it. Nothing is convincing me that it's all that separate from G1 stuff. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 12:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::"War going on" describes most of Transformer fiction. What makes Cyberverse "not G1", but Cloud G1, other than convenience for us editors? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:02, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::: As far as I can tell, there is no basic divergence, aside from Grimlock's origins, from the Cloud characters to the G1 counterparts. I could point to a fair few examples on the side of Cyberverse that rank higher than that (Grimlock's presenations, the origins of the Quintessons and Sharkticons, Skywarp, Acid Storm, etc etc.) [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:23, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::We can be here all day debating over character minutiae, but the point is that Cyberverse ultimately doesn't diverge that much from G1 in its general premise as opposed to Cloud. G1 is bloated enough as it is; it doesn't hurt to take out the one thing that doesn't really fit in and make it its own thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::: Well that just comes right back to my question: what actually makes Cloud World's core conceit any different from G1 beyond the fact that they have technology that allows them dimensional travel? Because if it is just that, I simply do not believe that is enough to justify a split for characters who are almost all made to look like and have the same personality as the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:51, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I agree for the sake of wiki presentation. *Cloud* is more like *TransTech* than it is like *Alternity*. *Cloud* characters got to travel to both the G1 and MD worlds as equally separate destinations. TakaraTomy used the *Generations War for Cybertron* moulds as the *United* series, which is G1 and not Aligned by our classification. *Cloud* recycling unused *Generations Fall of Cybertron* toys in a non-Aligned setting strikes me as more evidence that we can allow *Cloud* to live on its own rather than as another G1 setting. And *Cloud* was chosen by e-HOBBY over the competing proposal *Prime Shattered Glass* which would also have been on separate wiki pages despite employing purely redeco mould choiceis. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:08, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I'm not convinced by the idea that them saying "G1 World" is an indicator of separateness when there is also designations for "BW Spacetime" and "MF Spacetime." Brawn is depicted as practically identical in appearance to G1 Brawn before being upgraded. As for the Prime Shattered Glass choice, I think it's pretty obvious why that would be completely separate from this particular issue. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:25, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::The only reason Brawn is shown as the G1 body is if you take consideration that all Cloud members are drawn according to the latest toy or model available... he got no real toy before that, the only options were either G1 Sunbow, G1 toy or the tiny Universe 2.0 Legends. Now if you remove their appearance and focus on the story, Cloud is still more akin to Transtech than Alternity, Deadlock for example even got to visit the Legends World, a Aligned world (possibly the Adventure toyline) and the Ehobby spin-off dimension (now called Precursor World) -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 17:55, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::Yes, I am aware of how Cloud repurposings work. Nothing prevents one G1 universe from visiting another. And aside from that, Japan has had barely any non-JG1 cartoon related G1 fiction; of course Cloud World, which isn't directly JG1 related, would be indicated as different; that doesn't mean that it's not able to be categorized as G1. If it were an American storyline, where we have always had multiple G1 storylines, I feel that this would not nearly be as much of a point of contention. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I'm in favor of splitting Cloud from G1. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 19:32, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I haven't read any of the Cloud fiction myself, but I know that if our translation team collectively agrees on something based on the material available, then that's more than enough convincing for me to agree with them also. In other words, I agree with a split. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:52, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I'd vastly prefer if we could get someone like McFeely to weigh in on this. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:56, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::i'm in favour of the split. The cloud people have enough characteristics to distonguist them from theur jg1 counterpatts.--[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 20:14, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::Alright, seriously, what characteristics are there actually to distinguish them from G1? Because nobody has been able to give me a concrete example so far. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::::dinobot, heavy usage of aligned designs, hellwarp --[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 21:36, 28 December 2021 (EST)
Looks like Escargon is the only voice against the split thus far. Still, I suggest the discussion should remain open longer than usual, out of courtesy for people not checking the wiki as regularly given the holiday season. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:47, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:As the translations are still ongoing, I think the most we can suggest at this time is a note regarding its a classification as a Primax setting by AVP. As more information comes to light I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it was a decision made on shaky logic. Unlike the Alternity there doesn't seem to be any evidence of these guys being derived in-universe from G1 guys. And as fiction, it's about a bunch of super advanced parallel universe monitor guys who regularly travel to other universes. If it's literally just "the cast is mostly recolours of toys with G1 fiction" then maybe we need to start talking about listing the War for Cybertron games as G1 too. [[User:Star Spangled Sam|Star Spangled Sam]] ([[User talk:Star Spangled Sam|talk]]) 01:44, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::What exactly is super-advanced about them beyond SARA, who, as far as I can tell, is a gift from some being and not even their own creation? Because otherwise, they seem to be basic Transformers. Not a single person has been able to tell me that so far, and I'd be far more willing to listen if someone would just spell out what exactly makes them so distinct that means they can't be G1. It's not about in-universe stuff, because for all intents and purposes, the characters themselves are nigh-identical to the Generation 1 characters; you look at Cloud Megatron or Cloud Rodimus and it is obvious that, irregardless of whatever the fiction might say, they are being sold as new versions of the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 04:29, 29 December 2021 (EST)
:::By the same logic, then why not put the FOC and WFC games under the G1 banner since it heavly takes inspirations from it, same settings (war on cybertron, the resources are becoming low, escaping to another world), closest designs to G1.. hell they were more marketed towards G1 than the Movies and Prime in mind (let's face it.. that's what Hasbro always does).. but the further Hasbro tied them to Aligned and they became their own thing.. Cloud is about that, maybe marketed as G1 at first but they became their own thing at the end -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 13:20, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::::The WFC games are their own case that, despite what you say, were always clearly a part of Hasbro's ideas for the Aligned continuity, which is something that I'm not going to bother going into here. Nothing about Cloud registers to me as being somehow so separate that it requires us splitting off things into their own pages. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:24, 29 December 2021 (EST)
Bumping for more opinions. If there's no overall opposition to it by Friday or so, I'll start splitting. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:07, 4 January 2022 (EST)
:The Cloud fiction prominently features the Cloud characters interacting with their own G1 counterparts. If nothing else, it should be split on same basis as [[Galvatron II]]. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:50, 4 January 2022 (EST)
::We've seen that with other fiction. I'm not sure why it would justify them having their whole separate pages (Galvatron II is a unique case). If that's what it takes though to not go through some inane total split, though, then fine, whatever. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:If there is to be movement on this in the immediate future I suppose I should go ahead and weigh in. As the one doing the translation I broadly agree with Riptide. While I am unmoved by philosophical discussions on what constitutes "G1-ness" or "Transtech-ness," I believe it is important to return to our guiding principle of the end user experience. Given the already convoluted nature of the material as well as the cast's consistent interaction with both various Generation 1 continuities in general and their own incarnations in specific, I believe it will be in the best interests of intelligibility for the reader to split out Cloud from Generation 1. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:25, 5 January 2022 (EST)

We are not going to pretend that these are completely separate from the Generation 1 characters. Put up a suite or a "see [X] article for more information" because it is completely ridiculous to pretend that Cloud is it's own little continuity. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:38, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I disagree. Cloud should be split off entirely. So let's have an official vote and resolve this. I say '''Split'''. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:28, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::The articles have already been split. You'll forgive me if I don't show confidence in the decision from people who blew me off when I pointed out their original reason for splitting was incorrect (that supposedly the Almanac had come out before Cloud was truly explained, but in fact it had come after almost all of it had been published). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:35, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::This discussion has been open for twelve days. An unofficial tally shows at least 7-to-1 in favor of splitting. No one else has openly agreed with your position. Given that, and that Saix announced days in advance he would start splitting if there was no further discussion, it wasn't unreasonable for him to begin. But maybe there's a different split of opinions on the Discord or wherever, so it's certainly appropriate to ask for an official vote. Beyond that...the decision is just not up to you alone. The point of democracy is for all voices to be heard, not to leave every voice feeling satisfied with the outcome. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:08, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::I have no idea what's going on in the Discord server; I'm barred from it. I certainly hope there's not more discussion going on over there, because I was told that there would be a push to have these sorts of big discussions to be on the wiki. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:42, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::With all due respect: You need to stop putting so much emphasis on the in-universe designation, which AVP itself pointed out was ultimately arbitrary. I understand that AVP and the Almanacs are important to you, but Jim is not infallible, and while I'm sure he had good reasons for calling it "Primax" that's ultimately just ''his opinion''. Cloud being "its own thing" isn't some essential property; it's a matter of how to organise the wiki in order to make the fiction clear. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I also vote '''Split''' if only because of how better translations now has pointed out various past errors/assumptions/presumptions that needed correcting, and thus updating is needed so as to make things easier to categorize and organize here. Any wiki really worth their salt and wanting to do proper service to their respective franchises' fandoms would do the same. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 14:43, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::I ''still'' haven't got an answer for what makes Cloud so different that makes it ''need'' to be split. If there were a crossover between say, Marvel and Sunbow, nobody in their right mind we should completely separate, say, Huffer from Huffer. I'm willing to admit that I might just be missing something, but nothing in the stories themselves, as far as I can see, suggests it, beyond the aforementioned Cloud World classification, which for me is not enough of a justification. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:33, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::Neither Marvel nor Sunbow consists primarily of crossovers with another G1 continuity. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:20, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::If that's the main avenue of justification then frankly I don't think I'm ever going to agree with that line of reasoning, but I can clearly see I'm outvoted on this. I wish there would have been more people asked before the split was done, though, because I can see that this could very easily end up being another whole "retitling things to FSRLF" situation. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:00, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::We functionally split out Marvel and Sunbow versions for a lot of characters anyway. We're at the point where we draw lines based on how easy/hard it is for the information to be conveyed, not whether it's G1 enough or not. We think Cloud, as its own fullblown storyline/premise, falls on the side of "it's easier to read and parse it if they get their own shebang" instead of burying them in overlong G1 articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:11, 8 January 2022 (EST)

I'm not gonna argue further on this because I recognize it's a losing battle, but I think that the line of thought of "this one bit of media shouldn't be kept in an article because it won't get out there otherwise" sets a bad precedent that could easily be misused in the future. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:39, 8 January 2022 (EST)

Should the Cloud toys also be removed from the G1 character's pages? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 09:21, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:Yeah no, It vould be too convoluted, example look at the redirections [[Transformers_Cloud#Toys|there]]... where should each toy be redirected?? + the fiction regarding said toys has their own page now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 10:58, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::...What on earth are you talking about? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:16, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::Srry I misread his question.. I thought he meant "added" not "removed" from the G1 pages...
:Not entirely certain what you're asking, but the eight toys in the Cloud toyline (plus Deadlock) have already been moved to the Cloud pages in conjunction with the fiction, as they solely represent Cloud characters. The remaining Cloud characters repurpose existing toys. The writeups for those toys remain on the original pages with duplicates on the repurpose pages, as is standard practice. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:54, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::I mean, for example, [[Blaster_(G1)/toys#Generations|G1 Blaster's toy page]] has FOC Blaster on it, due to FOC Blaster being repurposed as Cloud Blaster. Should that repurposing be removed from G1 Blaster's page, since Cloud Blaster isn't considered to be G1 Blaster anymore? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:34, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::I believe yeah, the splitting between G1 and Cloud was recent (done last month) so there's still leftover traces on the wiki, if you can take your time to remove them why not -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 16:44, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::::Ok, good. I just wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 17:13, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::::Oh! Yes those should go, good eye! -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 10:52, 18 February 2022 (EST)

==Split Movie Character Toy lists?==
Just as what happened with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Megatron (G1)/toys]], I suggest we split certain Movie toy pages such as [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys]] as both pages have become excessively bloated. I suggest we separate them by having the original Bay film toylines (07, ROFT, DOTM, AOE, TLK, and any pre SS sub lines) have their own page and starting a new one that Contains SS, BB, and the upcoming ROTB toylines, alongside any future movie toylines until the new page itself becomes heavily bloated [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Sorry for being this late but given that ROTB toys are apparently coming this spring, I suggest you split like one part contains all 5 movies while the other starts with SS and BB until now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 15:26, 22 January 2022 (EST)

== Multi-part comic stories ==

For old Marvel UK multi-part stories like [[Target: 2006]] or [[Time Wars]], we put the whole thing under a single article, but for modern-day ones like each storyline in [[Transformers (2019 comic)]] we have a separate article for each issue. Is there a good reason for the discrepancy, or are the old ones just an artefact of a time in the wiki's history that didn't follow our current standards? --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 09:36, 22 January 2022 (EST)
:The thing with that is that it's a result of how the UK comic was written; there'd be about 8 or so pages per issue, meaning that we'd have a lot of little articles that are easier just grouped together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:16, 22 January 2022 (EST)
::Makes sense, although that's essentially what we have for [[The Transformers: Autocracy]] et al., which are also 8 pages per issue. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 15:38, 23 January 2022 (EST)
:::The difference with Autocracy lies mostly in that pretty much all of those issues have a beginning and end, and also have different titles. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:47, 23 January 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I always thought our headings on the Marvel UK story pages ''were'' the issue titles. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 01:21, 24 January 2022 (EST)

== Composite characters and page transclusion ==

This is something I've had the idea about for a while, but I've finally had a look at how the markup for it works and have come up with a proposal. The pages for [[Greatshot]] and [[Sixshot (G1)]] contain an entirely duplicated section set around the ''Victory'' cartoon owing to a retcon that occurred in the much later Legends manga. This is not an ideal solution because, among other reasons, any edits to Greatshot's cartoon section necessitates making the same edit to Sixshot's section.

Over in my sandbox, I've whipped up the page [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test]], containing only the events that happened to both Greatshot and the retconned Sixshot. By inserting <nowiki>{{:User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test}}</nowiki> into the relevant parts of Greatshot and Sixshot's pages (also sandboxed [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot|here]] and [[User:TheLastGherkin/Sixshot|here]]), the same information is automatically transcluded. And clicking "Edit" on, for example, the Legends manga section on Sixshot's page automatically redirects the user to editing that portion of Greatshot-test, thus updating all three pages at once.

If we go forward with this, I can see it being used for other characters in similar situations, like BWU [[Wolfang (Maximal)#Beast Wars: Uprising|Wolfang]], or Unite Warriors [[Roller (IDW)#Unite Warriors|Roller]], or putting the lion's share (pun intended) of [[Victory Leo]]'s fictional appearances back onto Victory Leo's page. With refinements, like say a <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> explanation for what each subpage is for the layperson ("This page covers the events of the Japanese Generation 1 continuity, where Greatshot and Sixshot are the same individual...") and maybe a [[:Category:Transcluded pages]], I could see this really working, and it could probably be bent into shape for repurposed toys as well. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 12:48, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:If we cannot avoid this sort of duplicated information entirely, this does seem like a pretty ideal solve to mitigate the constant peril of copy editing flubs maintaining multiple copies of one write-up entails. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:56, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Is there any way to get rid of the "This section is transcluded from another page. To edit it, please edit the transcluded page." notice? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:::There is! I just put that there manually while experimenting and also to make clear where the transcluded section is. In practice, since clicking "Edit" on a transcluded section takes you to the source page, a notice like that can be relegated to a commented-out note for editors who click to Edit the entire page (or a larger section). [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 16:16, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I thought it was automatic software stuff. Whoops, never mind. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:22, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Also, this works for fiction, but I see it running into issues when it comes to toys. (Thinking of Sixshot/Greatshot, Sixshot always gets toys first with Greatshot as the retool later in the same line.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:14, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:I've made some tweaks to my sandboxes, including standardising the transcluded page. Are there any objections before I start implementing this (in fiction sections)? [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 07:10, 12 February 2022 (EST)
::I sense that there could be an issue in the future where, for whatever reason, these sorts of characters diverge back into separate ones, whether it be through alternate continuities or whatever. Also, in the case of Greatshot, I feel like at the very beginning of his entry, there has to be something different to set up the Sixshot retcon, and just having the same opening text doesn't do that. 08:57, 12 February 2022 (EST)
:::His toy bio that mentions Sixshot as a separate person could go there. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:21, 16 February 2022 (EST)
:This could also be applied to Primus and Vector Sigma for their 3H comics sections since they are one and the same in that continuity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 26 February 2022 (EST)

== What makes a franchise? Or, does "Precursor World" exist? ==

So, browsing around the wiki, as one does, and came across this: [[Precursor World continuity|Precursor World (franchise)]]

Now, I'm not as well-versed in the Legends + Selects comics, so maybe this is incorrect, but to the best of my understanding, the branding "Precursor World" doesn't exist — this story was told across Generations Selects and Legends, and no toy or story was ever released branded as "Precursor World". It doesn't seem like the name even existed until pretty recently.

This...isn't a franchise, right? It's a long-running story told across various medium, but it's not a franchise, and calling it such implies something that isn't true.

Particularly, the idea that there is a "toyline" seems a bit of a stretch. There are only three listed "official" toys, but none of them were released under the "Precursor World" branding (which near as I can tell does not exist) and the list of "repurposings" seems almost entirely just "this toy/characters showed up in this story" which doesn't seem like anything's been repurposed to me. The IDW comics used a bunch of existing/prior toys, but that doesn't create a toyline of that comic series.

Am I off base here? --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:16, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:Okay there's a lot to unpack here but to begin with every single one of those toys is being repurposed as a separate object/character in a separate setting a la, for example, [[Green Tender Convoy]] and the [[Matrix Buster|Red Matrix]]. Most of the unnamed crowdfillers are minimized to footnotes on existing articles to avoid generating a bazillion stubs. The closest analogue I can give you is the [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|toyline]] for the original ''Timelines'' iteration of Shattered Glass. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:35, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I'll grant that those indeed seem to be repurposings, but the vast majority of toys on this list merely link to the toy entry for the toy on the regular character's page. I don't think having a list of members of these groups is bad (it's good!) but I don't think this is a toyline. Again, crucially, Shattered Glass has a brand, with the official toys released under that brand, whereas precursor world does not. IDW repurposed WfC/FoC/aligned toys as G1 characters, but this didn't create a virtual toyline associated with that comic. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:46, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:::Arguably Shattered Glass toys weren't really released under their own brand either until the recent Hasbro Pulse stuff, until then the figures were all just released under the ''Timelines'' banner or whatever else Fun Pub used at the time - the idea of a singular "Shattered Glass toyline" was just as much of a constructed idea until like a year ago. I can't say "franchise" and "toyline" ''aren't'' slightly more non-literal labels than usual in this context, but I do think there's value in having the info collated like this, and I can't think of ''better'' labels that aren't something stupid like "(meta franchise)". [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:57, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::::To be honest, I'm inclined to agree re: Shattered Glass, and would not be opposed to restructuring the toyline page to delineate between the "Shatted Glass Collection" and "Shattered Glass toys released via Timelines" or something. Shattered Glass does, however, have a leg up on Precursor World given that every official SG toy was branded as "Shattered Glass" in some way, though perhaps not as a "franchise". The box set is called Shattered Glass, and every official toy was called "Shattered Glass". There's some nuance there, of course, as arguably those are part of the character's names ala "Prime Universe Bulkhead" is still a Legacy toy, not a Prime toy, but I'd be happy to have a debate around the best way to frame Shattered Glass stuff given those discrepancies. Allll that said, Shattered Glass is today a franchise, but there have been zero anythings released with Precursor World branding or labeling. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 13:06, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I don't think the page should be removed or even severely modified, but I do think the terminology is flawed. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 16:02, 3 March 2022 (EST)
Precursor World is definitely not a "franchise" and should not have that label. The model to look at here is the [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] article, which gives an overview of the thing, lists it's stories and toys, but does not use the "franchise" label, and doesn't ''need'' to use it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 15:07, 3 March 2022 (EST)

Yeah, no, this is not a "franchise", and the page should not be labeled as such. It is a ''setting''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:I like the solution that AzimuthAcolyte gave on Discord: move "Precursor World (franchise)" to "Precursor World continuity" (with all uses of the word "franchise" changed to "continuity") and "Precursor World (toyline)" to "List of Precursor World toys". Simple and elegant. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:55, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Seconded.[[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:::That seems reasonable to me. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::::I'm for that. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::That's fair. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:59, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Works for me, somewhat obviously! If there are no major objections over the next day or two I'll get those moved over. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:48, 4 March 2022 (EST)
::Ohhh, That works -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 18:19, 4 March 2022 (EST)
Alrighty as it's been a day or so with no objections I am proceeding with the moves away from (franchise) and (toyline). --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:06, 5 March 2022 (EST)

== Episode Order ==
It's come to my attention that all cartoons have been listed in production order '''except''' Beast Wars, RID01, RB, and RBA. While I understand production order is not available for the latter two I suggest we change the first two for consistency's sake - Unless I'm wrong and they are ''not'' all in production order. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:48, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:We're not touching Beast Wars. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
::Beast Wars and RiD'01 not being in production order are accepted exceptions to the norm. We leave them as they are for reasons specific to each. But as for RB and RBA, we do have an idea of the production orders for each, but we instead use a weird mixture of production order and airing order that is consistent with no other series we cover. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 13:53, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:OK quick correction to myself, turns out that it's all supposed to be chronological order; That just happens to be production order for everything but those four. Sorry! [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 14:09, 16 March 2022 (EDT)

==Help with statues / figurines==
I wrote up many of the [[Super7#Transformers ULTIMATES!|ULTIMATES!]] entries, simply because no one else had. I don't actually care about that sort of merch and it ended up being me paraphrasing from press releases and copying their pics. Just today I learned there are 3 waves of TF [[Minimates]] that have no coverage here at all. It definitely seems like a lot of high-end statues are falling through the cracks as well. Is there someone who is willing to make that stuff more of a project? If not, could we perhaps put out a call for submissions on our Twitter feed? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:47, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I fear this is just... going to continue to be an Issue. The wiki is a labor of love, and the brand is at a point where there's a lot of stuff out there... well, that a lot of people probably aren't gonna love. Hasbro's moichandized the everloving HELL out of TF over the years, with more and more niche "G1" stuff that seemingly would never appeal to people for whom G1 is the big center of their fandom. I mean I just found some Micro Figures merch at a Big Lots, I've never seen these before, and I don't know offhand if they're on the wiki. They're kind of a nothing. It's hard to keep up. Same for stuff like phone games.<br>
:I don't know if there's an actual solution. ''Someone'' certainly needs to step up, but I kinda got my plate overflowing with my own pet (ha ha) niche chunk of TF history to exhaustively document, never mind dealing with stuff I am almost aggressively disinterested in. (Seriously what little Minimates experience I have left me with a worse impression of them than I already had from their hideous aesthetic alone.) Asking Twitter for people more well-versed in this stuff might could help for phone games, but... IS there anyone into Minimates as a whole Brand and not just in a "I get the licenses I like" sense to fill in gaps? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:20, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::Once I had composed the thought "Hey, it's bad that there are a lot of Minimates out with us not covering them at all," it was too late, and I just had to burn 40 minutes on some cut-and-paste writups for the entire series. That's one "solution," I guess, but even ''my'' obsessive-compulsiveness can only go so far. Editing this site really should not feel like a job... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:18, 22 March 2022 (EDT)

==Implementing galleries==
I propose making galleries on character pages a wiki standard. The current mainpic + show screenshots format doesn't cover images like character models (Unless used as a mainpic), concept art, appearances in posters or toy murals, comic book covers, etc.
Other wikis have successfully implemented galleries, I think the Hololive Wiki galleries in particular work well as an example https://hololive.wiki/wiki/Tokino_Sora#Media.
This gallery header covers character models and has suites for concept art and even character uses in collaborative merch.[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:27, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Seconded. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:30, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I would say some version of this concept for a section has merit, if nothing else as a solve for major characters with several prominent character models, perhaps as a fairly unobtrusive method of documenting alt modes, etc etc. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:38, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::I'm for this. As a good example, the BotBots characters all look to have been radically redesigned for the show. By default the current standard is to keep the original stock art look will appear as the mainpic each page. Having a gallery option would be a good way to show both versions. [[User:ParadoxFactor|ParadoxFactor]] ([[User talk:ParadoxFactor|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Oppose. There is no reason for these to take up space on the character pages. Would not oppose separate "gallery" pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:57, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::If we are open to workshopping implementation I do agree a separate "gallery page" in the style we already use for more conceptual articles here and there would probably be cleaner. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 14:06, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I love the gallery idea. There's a question of how much to include, and the exact implementation details of how to portion out overflow if there's too many images. It's a shame there isn't some way to generate them automatically just by tagging images with the characters they depict. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::A separate page seems like it would be overkill for someone like [[Flamewar (G1)|Flamewar]], who would only take a few images to cover appearances not already covered by fiction section images. I assume if a small gallery was to be used on a character's page, it would be near the bottom at any rate? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:22, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Yes, at the bottom would be ideal, no different from any of the galleries on our artist pages. IMO, separate gallery pages should only be used in instances where the number of images can't be comfortably fit onto one or two lines. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:33, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::I agree with Cyberlink. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:29, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Fair; Using gallery sections for those with few images and gallery pages for those with many images might make sense. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 15:46, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::See [[Megatron (G1)/gallery|G1 Megatron]] and [[Megatron (BW)/gallery|BW Megatron]] for examples of characters with enough images to justify separate gallery pages. [[Rhinox (BW)/gallery|BW Rhinox]], as it is now, is probably right on the line between "split it off" and "stick it at the bottom of the page". -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
I think choosing between a header at the bottom or a suite depending on image amount is a good solution instead of sticking to just one method.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:29, 22 March 2022 (EDT)
:Yeah, I think that would be good, as has been pointed out earlier. I do have to ask - because sometimes the artistic difference between characters in comics is slight with details only a little different in shape or kibble - would those fall under gallery stuff? Because they're effectively different per artist interpretation. I would be inclined to say yes, because effectively a different artist's rendition is shown usually of the same character without having reformatted or taken up armor or so forth. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 10:56AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I am very much on board with this idea. Having a gallery section or page depending on the character would be great, especially for characters like Flamewar who have a extremely prominent new design that we can't use as a main pic and for characters who have tons of designs, especially in the case of IDW where some characters change bodies every Tuesday. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:35 AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I think artistic liberty vs. new design would have to be on a case by case basis. Burcham's art of the BW cast wouldn't count for gallery purposes, in my opinion. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:08, 27 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I think it would be cool to have art of the same designs in different artstyles, but I agree it should probably be on case by case basis. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 6:17 PM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I currently have a sandbox to test galleries using Tigatron https://tfwiki.net/wiki/User:MrRald/sandbox/Tigatron#Gallery. I'd appreciate any feedback on things to add or change! [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 23:44, 1 April 2022 (EDT)
::: I like what you have so far, I think we should maybe add a few more versions of Tigatron, like his different comic appearances and such. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]])

: Now that we're actually going ahead with this... I have to ask, what are the galleries actually ''for''? When we were discussing this I was under the impression that they were going to be for "behind-the-scenes" images that wouldn't otherwise have a place on the wiki, like out-of-universe character models, character concept art, or full-body renders from stuff like guidebooks. Right now, a lot of the galleries just feel redundant, given that they're just a bunch of cartoon and comic screengrabs taken from the relevant section and removed of all context... and a lot of them, like [[Blaster (G1)/gallery]] are just completely empty. The fact that every character ''can'' have a gallery does not mean that all of them ''should'', especially if most of them are just going to be redundant or mostly empty. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:57, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
::Agreed, I feel like this is bloating the wiki and toeing over the line of our vague remit. Despite having a LOT of images, we're not an image repository. Also, a lot of these could probably be done as a single subsection of the characters' mainpage under below "Notes" of whatever rather than as separate mostly-blank-space sub-pages full of sub-headers with like two images total in them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 06:11, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I didn't think they'd be separate pages. What I was expecting was whichever of the cartoon character model, Dreamwave profile art or package art weren't being used for the mainpic, plus behind-the-scenes stuff, plus maybe extra bits from artbooks, covers, or sources like that. Stuff that can't just be slotted into a fiction writeup—and I don't mean "comic crops we don't have room for because equivalent/better panels are already in the fiction section". —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:35, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
My intentions for the gallery pages were for users to actually do the work in uploading character models, renders, et al., not dumping whatever cartoon screencaps we already have in fiction sections. And separate pages would be on a case by case basis. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:46, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
I don't see the point, honestly. It seems like pretty much any significant body a significant enough character has will appear on the wiki at some point in a comic panel or a toy info image or a screenshot or something, somewhere. I'm not sure this is a problem that needs solving. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] ([[User talk:Hooper X|talk]]) 20:36, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

===G1 model images===
To branch off of this topic, how would we feel about using [https://www.allspark.com/forums/threads/the-most-accurately-coloured-g1-animation-models-online.301/ DM's coloured models] for the G1 cartoon model galleries? The last time I brought this topic up (on Discord), some people were against the idea, due to them being fan-colour works and not official, but a few newer developments have been made since I last brought it up.

To clarify, for those unaware of DM's works:

* All of the line art is original and unedited (unlike several of the models in ''The Ark'' books, which had been tweaked, altered and traced by Bill Forster to make them presentable for publishing).
* The models are the final ones used throughout the majority of the cartoon (in Toei-animated episodes at least). Note: several of the models in ''The Ark'' books we have also come to discover were unfinalized ones, due to the internet and more stuff being made public since what was originally found around 2007—not to discredit Jim and Bill's hard work in putting those books together, it's just some of what we knew then isn't entirely correct now.
* And finally, the colours (which was the big thing some people were against). Unlike the handful of fan-coloured models that were originally uploaded to the wiki in the past, which eye dropped colors straight from poor quality episode masters, DM's colours are based directly on Toei and Marvel Productions' model colour guides, colour codes, charts, colour chips found by a member of the ''Dragon Ball'' fandom (who has scanned and digitized said colour chips) and other original production materials, meaning that the colours DM has used are all coming from the ''original'' original source.

An alternative Mr. Rald had brought up on Discord is that we could possibly look at using the uncoloured model line art instead, if people feel strongly against using fan-coloured works, but I think in order to present the G1 character models fully as references, you kinda need the colours included, especially given how poor the cartoon production was, what with all the animation errors (even in Toei episodes) etc, making it hard to gather decent references for the characters, which is mostly what these galleries are for.

Also, for the record, DM has given us permission to use his colourings on the wiki.

Let me know you thoughts. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:39, 6 April 2022 (EDT)

: I personally think that we should use DM's coloured models, they are as official as coloured models are going to get, and it's not like DM just randomly picked and chose want colours to use as FOCS said. We could just have the model and the colour guide, but at that point, just have the model sheet coloured. I would however be in favour of the uncoloured models with colour guides and the sheets with the fully coloured models to cover all our bases. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:16 AM, 6 April 2022 (PDT)

== Making a page for the Unreal Engine? ==

War for Cybertron, Dark of the Moon (PS3/X360), Fall of Cybertron, and Rise of the Dark Spark all run on Unreal Engine, specifically Unreal Engine 3. Why isn't there a page for it. It could have good info on those wanting to mod those games.

Unrelated, but there's a server revival project being worked on for those games. Right now it's only on PC, and progress is slow, but should we include info for it in the pages for those games? It's not official btw, there's a Discord server for it and a few YouTube vids about it.[[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]]) 17:29, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not sure what information we could put on an Unreal Engine page that would be useful to modders. An Unreal Engine page would be general info on the engine and a list of games which use it. Diving into technical details isn't really something we do. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:52, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I think linking to {{W|Unreal Engine|Wikipedia}} should be sufficient. That's what I did when I ''unfortunately'' had to document the Funko NFTs. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:11, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I don't see what value there would be to this. Unreal warrants, at ''most'', a mention on the relevant game pages. We don't have pages for every program used to make every piece of TF media/product. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:33, 24 March 2022 (EDT)

== Category for characters with no established gender ==

So I just had this idea and decided to share it here because why not? We have categories for female characters and variable gender characters but not for characters with undetermined genders. Many BotBots for example don't have genders and I think this category could be a useful way of grouping them together. And who knows, maybe someday it could even help official creators specifically looking for genderless characters to establish a gender to them. Does anyone agree to implement this category? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:06, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:This concept has been discussed before in the past, and generally the feeling has been that this would be a bit too much like the wiki actively trying to shape canon. Don't get me wrong, creators taking advantage of characters with no official pronouns is neat and I'm all for it, but IMO the wiki shouldn't directly serve up them. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 19:26, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
::Interestingly, I can't seem to find a prior community portal discussion about this matter, though I know it has come up on the Discord server more than once, to the conclusion Jalaguy mentioned. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:35, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:::Just to clarify, I thought of "official creators using it" as a quick example in favor of the category, but now I can totally see how it sounded like trying to influence canon too much. Regardless, I'd still be down for having the category if we agreed on it being useful for any other reason. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:51, 3 April 2022 (EDT)

== Category for trans characters ==

We had a productive conversation about the no established gender thing on the wiki discord and it made me realize that there should be a transgender category for the five established trans characters that there are so far, Arcee (who has established trans characterization on two different pages), Howlback, Arcadis, Anode, and Lug. Jalaguy mentioned that this has been discussed and people thought it was a good idea but it hasn't happened, so I just thought I'd ask for go-ahead on this. I figured that transgender rather than just trans could be a good word to use for this, due to them all being people who have gender. The term trans is merely more broad and could cover different kinds of transness than that or aesthetic stuff that is similar to gender, but we have no confirmation of being there yet in canon. Thus I think transgender would be the most accurate and desirable term here, and the umbrella trans can always be tacked on later if we need to. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 5:40PM 3 April 2022 (PDT) (edited 5:48PM PDT for clarity)
:Seconded. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 5:53 PM, 3 April 2022 (PDT)
::Since there are no objections, I'll go ahead. :3 -- [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 4:19AM, 11 April 2022 (PDT)

==Streamlining disambig headers (revist)==
So I remember this conversation from last year about streamlining the disambiguation headers. I checked back on the talk page discussion (link to said discussion archive here https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive69#Streamlining_disambig_headers) to see what happened and even though there was a lot of people who liked the idea with some who did not, it did not seem like it went anywhere. I thought I'd see if anyone else would like to revisit this idea as I feel like this would streamline things more, especially for Movie and Aligned and maybe a bit of UT especially for the guys who show up in all 3 shows or those don't have other bots who are completely different sharing the same name within the trilogy. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 9:01 PM, 12 April 2022 (PDT)

== Disambig tags and suites for Masterforce paired pages ==

We need to balance out our page titles for ''Masterforce'' human + transtector character pairs. Right now we have among extant pages and tentative redlinks:

Bullhorn (G1), Cab (human), Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (human), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (robot), [something], Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (robot)

I propose either we do human gets no species tag with the robot getting a species tag as the splinter page:

Bullhorn (G1) | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

or the human does get a species tag to equally balance with the robot:

Bullhorn (G1)/human | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

This would eliminate the need to have any longer-within-parentheses tag like "Minerva (G1 robot)" which would be affected by future continuities which may not yet have happened. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:55, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
:I would prefer either the human gets the "default" continuity tag with no further disambiguation or (human)/(robot) (with needed variations for disambiguation). The slash system is ugly to me. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:59, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::I'm of the opinion that the slash option for both feels the most fair. While the human versions were the first and thus feel the most deserving of the "default" tag, the robot versions are likely to become more commonplace and relevant as newer fiction dips its toes into using more Japanese characters. On a similar note, it was decided not to give the "BW" tag to either BW Silverbolt out of fairness, so while a similar "human/robot" concept could be implemented, there is the problem with Minerva having an Animated counterpart who is also a robot, Cancer having an Animated counterpart who is also a human, there being a Kre-O Bullhorn who is also a robot, a G.I. Joe Lightfoot who is also a human, and an IDW Wilder who is also a human. "Minerva (Headmaster)" also doesn't work for the G1 robot since the human was a Headmaster too. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:29, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::The slash system may not be entirely visually pleasant, but I consider having "Minerva (G1 robot)" in parentheses worse. In my proposal, all transtector characters would be unified symmetrically as "(robot)". [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:47, 24 April 2022 (EDT)

Here are three proposals to unify the namespaces:

Possibility 1: humans get nothing and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1), Cab, Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai, Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (G1), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 2: both humans and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1)/human, Cab/human, Cancer (G1)/human, Clouder/human, Ginrai/human, Shūta Gō/human, Lightfoot (G1)/human, Minerva (G1)/human, Ranger/human, Road King/human, Wilder (G1)/human

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 3: both humans and robots get parentheses

Bullhorn (G1 human), Cab (human), Cancer (G1 human), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1 human), Minerva (G1 human), Ranger (human), Road King (human), Wilder (G1 human)

Bullhorn (G1 robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (G1 robot), Doubleclouder, Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1 robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (G1 robot)

Thoughts? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:12, 12 June 2022 (EDT)
:Isn't Option 1 one basically just a slightly different version of what we're already using and what you're proposing to change in the first place? Anyway, like I said above, Option 2 is the most fair between the human and robot depictions (as Option 1 feels like we're saying "The human versions are the more important versions" when it's the robot versions that are more likely to get any representation in future comic appearances), and it reduces the amount of multiple-word parentheses tags that we usually dislike using and try to avoid as best we can (which is the exact opposite of what Option 3 is proposing). Though, drop the "/human" from Clouder and Shūta Gō since their names already differ from "Doubleclouder" and "Goshooter". No need to complicate those two. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 08:45, 12 June 2022 (EDT)

==Transformers: Armada (Trading Card Collection)==
I recently discovered that Fleer published a Trading Card collection in 2003 for Transformers Armada.
I've documented everything I could find about it - including an Energon (preview) Scorponok card I got from a local retro game store.
[[Iacon0/Sandbox]]
Is it alright if I roll this out? [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 12:52, 1 May 2022 (EDT)

== WFC/FOC Reenergized Server Project info? ==

Info: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO5yzrWE9yVT56Rgxl9oqntVysxWr2k7e

Basically, it brings back the multiplayer servers for the Cybertron games, PC and PS3. Should this be talked about in the pages for those games? (ROTDS and ROTF aren't online at the moment, and 360 versions won't have support) [[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]])}
:It's not official, so no, it shouldn't. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:54, 27 June 2022 (EDT)

== Handling of "former GoBots" and "former Diaclone" characters on the wiki ==

So recently we've been seeing multiple characters that had previously been portrayed as dimension-hoppers from non-Transformers realities, but using Transformers designs — [[Bug Bite (GoBots)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]] and [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]] — appearing as "normal" Transformers ([[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]]). There's some heavy dispute over whether we should put them on the same page or split them out (e.g. "since the GoBots Bug Bite isn't ''originally'' from a G1 universe, he shouldn't go on the G1 Bug Bite page), so I thought we should probably have a centralised place to put together a comprehensive set of standards.

My take, personally, is that GoBots and Diaclone are *not* continuity families, they're their own properties that happen to cross over with Transformers, and so shouldn't be split on that basis. I feel that Burn Out and Lift-Ticket, regardless of them being portrayed as Diaclone mecha in their initial appearance, are the same basic concept as the likes of Road Rage and Tigertrack — "Transformers versions" of existing Diaclone toys and decoes. It helps that [[Spin-Out (G1)]] inherently blurs the lines, having first appeared as a "normal" Transformer ''before'' he was portrayed as a former Diaclone mech.

For the GoBots characters, I'd frankly be tempted to go even more radical and just merge ''all'' of them — put all the [[Cy-Kill (disambiguation)|Cy-Kill]] cameos on one page, like we do for other external property characters. Even in the edge cases like [[Fracture (Movie)|Fracture]], there's the precedent of her actually being intended as just ''being'' the GoBot. It feels a lot simpler to me than the headache of having Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, and Bug Bite, the ''other'' white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, having separate pages on a technicality. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:57, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Hard disagree on GoBots. By virtue of covering the Scioli comic in full, we have a GoBots continuity family to put them in. I say keep the ones who are explicitly GoBots at (GoBots), and put the ones who are Transformers (or ambiguous) at their respective continuity families. Basically, what we're doing for Bug Bite, do for all of them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:23, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:I don't agree on movie-Fracture in specific and the mass-merge of ''all'' GoBots-based characters in general. Fracture's a movie-universe character who premiered in a movie-based toyline and appeared in movie-timeline fiction. "The toy was originally conceived as" holds very little water there in light of all the rest of that. I'm not wild about merging characters from different continuity families (aka "major franchise umbrellas", the point of that divide was always less "fiction-detail based" and more "real-world Hasbro/Takara starting over based" as an organizational tool), as that leans heavily towards the Wikipedia style "just lump 'em all together" manner that... doesn't really work for our scope. There's SG Bug Bite and Crasher too, I don't think they should go under a giant singular page for the character concept.
: But ''in general'' I agree with keeping stuff like Lift-Ticket and Burn Out together because the distinction is really too nitpicky to be useful. If we get an EarthSpark Lift-Ticket who is a red Hoist-like bot, then they can go on a separate page because "new major franchise umbrella" gives a decent degree of separation. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:25, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: Oh, well, the SG GoBots are an obvious exception. If it's a "mirror universe" I feel like it should never share a page because the point is that it's the opposite.
:: That said, there are other nuances I admit I skimmed over — stuff like Wings Universe Cop-Tur, who's based on the original but is a secret genius and a good guy, I'm not sure he should be merged in. At the same time, though, splitting the Bug Bites feels disingenuous, and I'm not sure whether there's a good middle ground between "split 'em all" and "merge 'em all". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:44, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I also agree there isn't really a good middle ground. But here's the thing: If GoBots wasn't a factor and it was just G1 and Cyberverse, we wouldn't be having this conversation. At the end of the day, they're from another IP, but they're also genuine Transformers characters, and thus they should remain split like other Transformers characters. And that includes treating the genuine GoBot incarnations as separate entities. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:51, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I am, honestly, not sold either way on splitting/merging re: the "very distinctly the Tonka GoBots who originated from the Tonka GoBots franchise". I feel that there are '''''definitely''''' some bots that should not be merged with the Tonkas, by virtue of being from different continuity-families/hub-franchises (bots from the live action movies and Cyberverse, for example, should really stay separate). I'm less concerned about "in-fiction origin" because that's a clusterfuck all its own since 1984 best just left alone and we already disregard that for like Nebulans and stuff anyway, though I'd also argue that like, it should be taken into consideration the diff between an homage and an iteration (I'd argue ''Timelines'' Cop-Tur is the former and probably shouldn't be merged). But even just looking at them from the real-world staggered integration of the franchises, GoBots ARE a weird edge case (whaaat, something Scioli was involved in got weird? ''nnnoooOOOOOooooo'') and it kinda feels off to not treat them as a separate thing given their ultimate origins. But like, they are, functionally, "G1" characters as far as "how they were brought to TF" goes in the real world, and I'm not convinced that splitting out WFC Bug Bite is really a good idea or terribly helpful. So like, I dunno. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:06, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::::And then there's the ''very'' unique case of GoBots Stretch having been given a retroactive backstory of being born in the world of Transformers Animated before he crossed dimensions and became a GoBot. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:23, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::::If anything, Stretch is a Transformer pretending to be a GoBot.
:::::The criteria that keep this wiki running and readable have always had some smudgy bits, and if you stare too long at any of them pretty soon all one sees is the smudge, not the dividing line or even the story itself. Cyberverse and Prime are each ''basically'' a retelling of G1, and if they didn't have a few features we've accepted as clear dividers from "real" G1, they could have gone within G1 just as much as the IDW comics have. The divisions are necessary to keep information from being a useless, unstructured, unnavigable mess; hopefully we can draw the lines in a way that comes to require the fewest exceptions later. '''My thoughts''': when there's a Bug Bite whose origin is explicitly "I'm not a Transformer, I'm hiding among them, creatures like myself find Transformers to be nauseating uncanny valley aliens," then that's a pretty extreme division, more extreme than many others we've been holding up for years without controversy, and should stay very much separate from any other Bug Bites who are just plain ol' white car Transformers. The various Cy-Kill cameos in G1 and Armada should stay separate, just because that's how we handle other hi-and-die cameos across firm storyline borders (Animated Overlord, SG Krok). I agreed at first with splitting the Burnouts/Lift-Tickets, but if it is really causing a huge dilemma I do not object to re-merging them. Each pair exists within the G1 storytelling universe. It is not essential that we build 2 different pages for G1 universe Lift-Tickets where one of them is a Diaclone mech and the other looks just like it and comes from someplace called Diaclone. We could paper that over with a "Note" explanation. The really important part is that both the Burn-Out and Lift-Ticket cases must get the same resolution. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 05:10, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:I vote for split. I regret ever pushing for merging similar concepts around the time of ''Ask Vector Prime'' because a decade ago this wouldn't have been a question, it would have been settled with "obvious they're different characters." [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:38, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Strongly in favor of putting the Diaclones back together so long as they remain essentially G1 guys. Especially since we now have ''two nigh-identical Burn-Out pages that differ only by which sliver of fiction section they possess''. Moderately in favor of putting all the dumb Cy-Kill cameos together because, like, it's only moderately funny to split out Cy-Kill (Armada) on a technicality. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:47, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: I'm going to stay out of the Bugbite / Fracture question. I'm too involved on the creative side. I think Walky nails it about Burn-Out & Lift-Ticket. And probably the Cy-Kill cameos too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:11, 29 July 2022 (EDT)

:I have to ask: if this is a concern, why did we split out the Cloud articles a month ago. Because they also are clearly designed to look like G1 characters, and aside from some minor changes in personality and dimension hopping stuff (which also applies to these three examples here), are near-identical in fiction to their Generation 1 counterparts. What makes them different from Bug Bite, Burn Out, and Lift-Ticket? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:29, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Lead Cloud translator here. As we discussed in-depth at the time, the Cloud characters do nothing *but* dimension hop and frequently cross over with the Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity and their own G1 incarnations, rendering them nigh unintelligible when buried in A-list G1 articles. The Cloud issue was one of logistics and readability, not one on the philosophy of intrinsic "G1-ness," as I believe was said at the time. I would also argue something on the scale of Cloud is a different discussion entirely from the current topic of merging two one-paragraph articles.

::On a most practical level re-merging a thoroughly deliberated and reasonably large scale split from a couple months ago just strikes me as kind of a waste of community resources.

::For those that missed it the impetus was translating the other 80-90% of the prose and the discussion can be found [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Splitting_Cloud_characters|here]]. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

Had a brainwave about a potential way to handle the GoBots characters—as a compromise between "treating them like full Transformers characters" and "treating them like external properties", use the GoBots page as a "hub" for the others. I've mocked up a couple of sandboxes for [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Cy-Kill|Cy-Kill]] and [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Bug Bite|Bug Bite]]. Any thoughts? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:16, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:If we absolutely have to (which I still really don't agree with) I'd prefer this over full fledged merging. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:02, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:I think this is a good compromise. The important thing is that there's a clear delineation between the dimension-hopping GoBots and native Cybertronians, and I think this fits the bill. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:03, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
::I still don't like the idea of rolling in the ''Cyberverse'' Bug Bite or any other not-G1-franchise iterations on the GB character concepts (like movieverse Fracture), even in the proposed super-abridged-and-linked-to-main-article format. For the appearances within the franchise of TF-origin, sure, I think this works. Cy-Kill's multiverse of murder... ehn. I'm not really feeling strongly either way but like we got hi-then-die charcater micropages aplenty, I don't think Cy is something terribly unique to not get them. Like... we got a page for "the many deaths of Optimus Prime", I feel like "the many deaths of Cy-Kill" could probably stand to be its own thing if we REALLY wanted to hammer the point of how stupid and hack it is home. Which, come to think about it, I kinda DO. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:42, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Ah, see, Fracture was something I was specifically thinking of here — I thought it would work to accomodate both the original intent and how she's been tied back to Crasher in <s>Jim's nonsense</s> fan-targeted media while still respecting the practical reality of Fracture as her own, movieverse character. That said, I do understand your reluctance, so if the majority is against this I'm not too fussed. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:22, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, it feels like "Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee" is its own Transformers thing at this point. He may have originated as a GoBots transplant (both in real life and in fiction), but that doesn't automatically make every iteration of Bug Bite a GoBot, any more than every subsequent iteration of Lockdown or Lugnut is considered an Animated character. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:34, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::::I appreciate the work Riptide put into this and like the writing / presentation style employed... and I just still don't think it's necessary. Between disambigs and "You Look Familiar...", we already have ways to cope with characters who look alike across different continuities but who aren't the same character. Most of these transplanted GoBots are absolutely not the same characters as each other - most of the Cy-Kill cameos, Cyberverse Bug Bite. There is no need for us to build a new way to unite those cross-continuity characters when nothing unites them more than the "basic concepts" that we've kept separate on hundreds of other name / appearance reuses. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:43, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::I adore this brain blast, over and above what I proposed below (as it actually accommodates, in Cy-Kill's case, say, the ''Armada/TransTech/Animated'' cameos), and think the fact that people on both sides of this polarising issue aren't immediately opposed to it makes it strike me as a really good compromise. I still would prefer the ''Diaclone'' pages to be merged with their G1 counterparts, but whether or not it's a full merge or just the "main article" structure here, the intro phrasing proposed with Cy-Kill and Bug-Bite is perfect in my opinion. The key thing for me is that, when people look up info on Cy-Kill or Burn Out, they still find a pointer to the relevant information at the exact point they'd expect it to be, and not only that, but they can chart the entire conceptual history of the character on one page (I know the disambigs theoretically do the same, but in practise Jo's approach is much more effective). Assuming the same policy isn't applied to ''Uprising'' appearances, I still think something should be done about those—but otherwise I'd be very happy with this. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:16, 1 August 2022 (EDT)

So as I understand it, the consensus is that Diaclone characters should share a page with their G1 counterparts, and that — at least for the moment — GoBot characters should be left as-is, with White Bumblebee's G1 adventures split between the GoBot and G1 pages? Would appreciate some more input before we begin implementing this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:09, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:I still don't like the Diaclone thing but clearly I'm outvoted. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:More or less. I'm fine with rolling G1 WFC Bug Bite in with the explicitly-GoBots one in the manner test-bedded above on the same grounds as the whole "Nebulan/Cybertronian" deal with Targetmaster gun-bots we've done forever; I think the proposed format both works with the way we've handled disparate depictions between different fictions within the same franchise chunk for a very long time now while noting the important real-world issues with these transplanted characters. And it's not like the combo page would be anywhere near big enough to make a split-out necessary. But I'm willing to table that for the moment while moving ahead with rolling the Diaclones back in. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:15, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
::I agree with this completely. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:11, 3 August 2022 (EDT)
:Diaclone characters should share pages with G1 counterparts who are also canonically said to be Diaclone-y. If we ever get a "Gobots Universe Bug Bite" that would be merged too - but just "white car Bug Bite" should not. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:21, 3 August 2022 (EDT)

==Proposal re: G1 pages==
I'm not expecting anything other than a hard "no" on this from the vast majority of editors, but a few people impelled me to post it, so here goes. In particular, I think this perspective is one held by many casual readers of the wiki. As I said over on [[Talk:Burn Out (Diaclone)|Burn Out's talk page]], I think both camps feel a sense of "''obviously'' these are (not) the same character", depending on whether they're coming from a strictly in-universe perspective or not. I want to put that whole discussion into an even broader perspective. Plus, I think the list of characters below is an interesting resource in its own right.

For ages, the wiki's had it so G1 appearances of characters originating in ''Robots in Disguise''—such as [[Sky-Byte (RID)]]—just get put on those pages. My understanding is that RID was considered something of a special case, because of how it was originally conceived as an in-continuity G1 thing, and remained such in Japanese continuity. For a less-prominent example, see also ''[[Power Core Combiners]]'', which similarly lists the IDW G1 appearances of [[Smolder (PCC)]] and [[Steamhammer (PCC)]] just on those pages. Again, this was a special case, because PCC was never concretely established as being a live-action movieverse thing or a G1 thing (which makes sense, because in Hasbro's eyes at the time, that wasn't a distinction that mattered to them).

There are other areas on the wiki that take a continuity-agnostic approach; I think it's just character pages that are handled so strictly. Check out [[Noisemaze Mass Production Type Version]]—which honestly ''is'' a character page in every way that matters—for a recently-made-relevant-again example. For many bigger-picture concept pages, a similar approach is used to great effect: [[Transformation]], [[Scanning]], [[Energon]], [[Protoform]], [[Spark]], [[Living metal]], [[Mini-Con]], [[Energon mutation]], just to grab a few random examples.

To draw attention to one last point, which I predict will resonate a lot with people who already agree with me and not at all with people who don't: any and all ''Beast Wars'' or ''Beast Machines'' original characters are exempt from this issue—despite, on a real-world level, there not really being any difference between those franchises and the likes of ''Armada'' or ''Animated''. It's just the lore connection that keeps it tethered, despite the wiki treating it as its ''own'' continuity family in basically every other way that matters.

My specific proposal is this: '''for characters originating ''outside of G1'', don't keep separate G1 pages.''' Treat those characters as we do Sky-Byte, ignoring the "continuity family" divide, and put the appearances on the page where they're most relevant. Here are the salient benefits of this approach:
*Have all the information on many popular post-G1 characters in the place where most casual readers would expect to look.
*Cut the Gordian knot of the GoBots/Diaclone debate.
*Finally ditch all those (BWU) pages consisting of a single sentence and a duplicated toy entry.
*Fewer redundant toy writeups which need to be maintained in parallel.
*Far, far fewer awkward paragraphs in Notes sections talking about "continuity transplants" like those are a real thing.

Here is a list of pages which I think would be affected, sorted by continuity, just from an hour or so of searching:
*'''''Diaclone''''': [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]]
*'''''GoBots''''': [[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Crasher (G1)]], [[Cy-Kill (G1)]], [[Leader-1 (G1)]], [[Rest-Q (G1)]], [[Cop-Tur (G1)]] (!)
*'''''Armada''''': [[Hot Shot (G1)]], [[Red Alert (IDW)]], [[Demolisher (G1)]], [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Sideways (RM)]] (!), [[Treadshot (IDW)]]
*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Override (BWU)]], [[Ransack (IDW)]], [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Signal Lancer (G1)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Barricade (IDW)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Breacher (G1)]], [[Terradive (G1)]], [[Hailstorm (G1)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''Animated''''': [[Bulkhead (G1)]] (!), [[Lugnut (TF 2010)]], [[Lockdown (G1)]], [[Slipstream (G1)]] (!), [[Oil Slick (G1)]], [[Lightbright (G1)]], [[Lickety-Split (G1)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Breakdown (IDW)]], [[Airachnid (G1)]], [[Predaking (Kingdom)]], [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Rescue Bots''''': [[Medix (G1)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Scatterspike (G1)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Headlock (G1)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Transit (G1)]], [[Fracture (Cybertron)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Cyberverse''''': [[Shadow Striker (G1)]], [[Croaton (G1)]], [[Meteorfire (G1)]], [[Wildwheel (G1)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Doomwings (G1)]], [[Ursa Major (G1)]], [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': (deep breath) [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Twirl (G1)]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Sky Blast (G1)]], [[Sureshock (G1)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]
I assuredly missed some, so feel free to edit the lists above to add any other characters that would be affected by this proposal which are omitted!

Again, the vast majority of these are from ''Beast Wars Uprising'', which does have some weird lingering cases that would need further individual discussion, I think: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]]. But for the most part, I really don't see any reason why there should be all these tiny nothing pages; the only reason all those Mini-Cons were not called Mini-Cons is that in the ''Uprising'' universe, Mini-Cons are called Micromasters instead (which is the lore equivalent of "[[Barricade (G1)]] doesn't look like he's made of knives"). This is even ''less'' an irreconcilable lore detail than, for example, the organic/robotic split for Targetmasters and the like. My main goal with sharing this is to revisit the ''Uprising'' policy, because from where I'm sitting, it's resulted in exactly the same horribly inconvenient setup as the ''Diaclone'' stuff. A different, specific policy there would deal with most of the examples above, and I'd be very happy; what I've suggested is just a one-size-fits-all policy.

The weirdest victim of this stated policy, I think, is that of [[Bulkhead (G1)]], who technically originated with Animated, but whose appearances in G1 media have all drawn specifically from the ''Prime'' version. [[Slipstream (G1)]] is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: [[Slipstream (Animated)]], [[Slipstream (WFC)]] and [[Slipstream (Cyberverse)]], depending on which specific version is being depicted. That means all of the Bulkhead appearances would actually go on the ''Prime'' page. I really don't feel strongly on this detail, though. [[Cop-Tur (G1)]], as mentioned in the above discussion, is another edge case. One more strange case ''not'' listed above is that of [[Emissary (IDW)]], who homages the ''Robots in Disguise'' character but genuinely has what I'd consider to be a radically different portrayal, likely inspired as much by the ''Titans Return'' figure as anything.

To be clear, I consider G1 a special case because of how it's a catch-all label for anything that isn't Hasbro's newest ground-up reboot du jour. Like it or not, G1 usually doesn't actually mean "G1" any more, it just means ''Transformers''. I absolutely wouldn't want to start merging anything from other continuity families—that way pure madness lies. But I think this proposal has clear-cut criteria for inclusion, and would feel more consistent with other areas of existing wiki policy. To give a specific, relevant example: I don't think [[Fracture (Movie)]]'s appearances should be folded onto her merged ''GoBots'' page as some have suggested, ''but'' I do think her toy writeup should be on both without any "blah blah repurposed" hedging, and likewise for the other movieverse characters based on redecos designed by [[Joe Kyde]] contemporaneously with Classics and Universe with specific G1 characters (mostly Micromasters) in mind, some of which were even intended to be released as part of the ''Universe'' toyline. These being: [[Fracture (Movie)]], [[Big Daddy (Movie)]], [[Jolt (Movie)]], [[Grindcore (Movie)]], [[Breakaway (Movie)]], and [[Crankcase (Movie)]]. [[Mudflap (Movie)]] and [[Inferno (Movie)]] are basically the exact same but nobody ever talks about that.

Finally, I think [[Gigatron (G1)]]/[[Overlord (G1)]], [[Zaptrap]]/[[Kuwagatrer]], and [[Rotorbolt (Timelines)]]/[[Skyklik]]/[[Fumes]] should prrrooobably be revisited? In the former two cases, they exist due to niche media establishing them as separate individuals within the same continuity, but we already have precedent for dealing with that—see [[Hot Shot (G1)]]. I will concede that the Rotorbolt situation is quite funny.

I understand that the wiki is structured the way it is for good reasons, but the post-[[Evergreen]] state of the franchise is one where most writers are plucking characters from anywhere in the franchise's history without any significant changes to their depiction. The existing policy will only become more cumbersome as time goes on, in my eyes—I know for many editors, the list of pages above is a horrible scary list of Exceptions, but from where I'm sitting, they feel more like exceptions as they already stand? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 07:25, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:As someone who is basically sympathetic to your goals and not knee-jerk opposed to the idea, this:
:::"Slipstream (G1) is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: Slipstream (Animated), Slipstream (WFC) and Slipstream (Cyberverse), depending on which specific version is being depicted."
:is the worst thing I've ever read. Just, why? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I was mostly being glib, I don't have a good answer there! Just wanted to draw attention to the fact that it ''would'' be a problem with the proposal. It's also been pointed out that all of [[Lockdown (G1)|Lockdown]]'s appearances are visually based on the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' toy! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:56, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Absolutely not. There's so much here that's based on false assumptions/incorrect information that I absolutely refuse to take any of this seriously. Concepts are on the same page because they are just that: concepts. There's so much to pick apart here but because I have important things to do, I'll just say that right now, the only reason why there was ''ever'' any confusion over Power Core Combiners is because fans took behind the scenes information from the company overly literally. You actually look at the one piece of information about the toyline (the brief history provided directly by Hasbro the club) and it makes it abundantly clear that it was always meant to be movieverse; I even argued back at the time about Smoulder and Steamhammer being put on that page, and the only reason why it's still that way is because the argument just fizzled out. And once again, I really have to ask: why the hell are we pushing forward merges based on "vibes" when we still keep the Sideways' (someone who is actually said in fiction to all be the same guy) apart based on moronic, petty reasons? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:01, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Yeah, no, sorry, I think this is ultimately unhelpful and going to cause more accessibility issues than it solves. "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in" is perhaps a little confusing to new readers, but it's ultimately fairly self-consistent and easy to navigate once you understand the basic concept; "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in, with the exception of RID01 which shares its pages with G1, and any latter-day characters imported into G1, which go on the pages of their non-G1 incarnations" is very confusing and requires you to be deep in the sauce to understand which characters are and are not exceptions to the rule. I obviously think that flexibility of the system is a good thing — the RID/G1 merge, while less than ideal, is definitely the best way to solve a very unintuitive issue — but the more holes we poke in the tower the closer it comes to collapsing, if you catch my drift.
:Ultimately I think the occasional silliness of "Shadow Striker (G1) who is identical to Shadow Striker (Cyberverse)" and such is the price we pay for having any structure whatsoever. The more we make exceptions on the basis of ultimately arbitrary "well this one's SO similar" the less consistent the wiki overall gets, and the harder it gets to navigate. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Basically, this. And I don't even think that drawing the franchise-based chunk distinction is all that confusing given I think most people grok the idea that characters will pop up across sub-fictions of major multi-media franchises with varying levels of similarity to prior incarnations that are still "oh, it's a wholly separate storyline, okay". That's just how these things ''do''. (and like "multiverse" has kinda become a ''thing'' in other franchises the last several years) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 10:00, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:"We've always put RID guys appearing in G1 as still being the RID character, look at Sky Byte" - what other examples make this an "always"? There WERE two Sky Byte pages, for years. We only stopped having a Sky-Byte (G2) when its character model in the IDW G1 comic was explicitly based off the new T30 toy sculpt which wound up with like half of these separate articles duplicating each other. It was argued on that talk page for a long while. The only other case I can think of at all is Gigatron (G1), and we ''don't'' treat him like Megatron (RID).
:"We treat BW as a continuity family like Armada, it looks like we are showing favoritism to them" - we treat it like a franchise within G1, which is what it is. And we disambig by franchise, not by continuity family. "Chase (RB)", not "Chase (Aligned)" or "Chase (Prime)". This was one of the concerns I raised last year when we turned Victory, Masterforce et al into G1 because they had no separate box branding of their own, wait it turned out they did, welp whattaya gonna do, no backsies.
:'''Last but MOST''', I'd say that, yes, "lore connections" mean a great deal here, it is a feature not a bug. This is a fiction-centric wiki as surely as it's an English-centric one. We put character writeups first, above the toys. We give the toys the character names and say "his stickers", not "its stickers" and talk about how it represents the character, not about how many micrograms of silicon it contains. Separating characters because they come from different storyline eras / offerings is entirely normal and reasonable for us. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:43, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I don't disagree in general, but G1/IDW Gigatron DOES share a page with RID Megatron. [[Gigatron (G1)]] is the Overlord repurpose. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:49, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Oof. Don't know why I clearly remembered them as being separate, but in any case I regret the error. Thank you.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
There's no way to organize something like this place without something somewhere seeming arbitrary. I think the existing structure is arbitrary in the best way that makes the most sense, and trying to "mitigate" that arbitrariness just creates different arbitrariness. A lot of this "but what if we redid all this to fix this particular thing" shuffling just relitigates why we already do the stuff we already do. so, like: no --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 09:54, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

== The Discord ==

Alright, seriously, we need to talk about this. It is beyond frustrating that a greater than 50% chunk of discussion about what big edits will happen on the wiki are happening on an app that people either aren't on or (in my case) aren't allowed on. I was told it was going to just to get voices onto things but that clearly isn't how it's working out. We need either some sort of archival dump of all these posts or something because I'm tired of getting into arguments where half the responses haven't even happened on the main site itself. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:45, 17 August 2022 (EDT)
: I think you're drastically overestimating how much discussion about big edits is happening on the Discord. No actual big decisions are getting made there, and we make it a point to repeatedly remind people that discussion for major changes needs to happen here before anything gets decided. But we also can't stop anyone from simply talking about things there the same way we couldn't stop discussion on the AllSpark thread when that was a thing, and having a public log of discussions from the editing channel is both infeasible and frankly unnecessary. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 09:09, 17 August 2022 (EDT)

==Designer bylines on toy writeups==

As those of us who have been tuning in to the [[Hasbro Pulse#Livestreams|Hasbro Pulse livestreams]] have no doubt noticed, one side effect of the unprecedented transparency of the current team on the ''Generations'' franchise is that we are now pretty consistently being blasted with a fire hose of toy designer credits. While there's been a scramble to record them on the designers' pages as best we can, this rapidly growing body of information is not doing the average reader a whole lot of good sequestered away on pages that require them to already know the designers by name. As such, I've put together a template to act as a designer byline for relevant toy write-ups, largely following the formatting of our existing voice actor template.

Documentation for the prototype template which I've named '''<nowiki>{{toydesigner}}</nowiki>''' can be found here:

*[[:Template:Toydesigner]]

And a variety of examples of implementation can be found here:

*[[User:AzimuthAcolyte/Sandbox/Toy credits demo]]

Is this something we would be interested in implementing?

Questions, concerns, suggestions etc are welcome. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:33, 22 August 2022 (EDT)

:I support adding this template, it's valid information and helps put names and faces in a historically anonymous industry due to the lack of credits in the products themselves.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:38, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I think this is a great idea. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I really like it. The only possible negative is that unless a whole bunch of people are very dedicated to this (or one brave soul is ''extremely'' dedicated to it) we might end up seeing it only appear on a small handful of toy entries and most will never feature it. I vote for going ahead with it regardless.
:::While we are addressing the "designer credits" issue, can we also please find a better phrase to use on the designer pages than "Toys So-and-so is known to have had a hand in creating"? It's just so overwrought. I think "Design Team Credits Include:" gets the point across much more naturally.... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:54, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::::This is a fair point. Maybe something as blunt as "Known Design Work" mirroring the "Published Works" thing we use for writers/artists? -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Looks good to me. Hope we can scrounge together sources and lists for older design teams too. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 15:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I can't see any reason not to do this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not a toy person, but that looks really cool! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:23, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
Oh wow, I'm blown away by the universally positive reception here! If there are no concerns in the next few days I guess I'll get started rolling this out. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Alrighty it's been a fair bit with no further concerns, so I have pushed the template live to [[:Template:Toydesigner]] and will begin implementing it as I have time. Any and all help is appreciated, as this will of course be a huge job. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 16:13, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Wiki Toy Photo Quality Standards ==
So we know (and had long suspected anyway) that Hasbro designers are sometimes pulling Wiki photos for reference. That's great, but we've got some toy photography on here that's a good bit off from what the figures look like in reality for one reason or another. Is there any way to flag shots that are out of whack so that they might get tweaked or replaced? This issue comes to mind since, while I've been here more or less since the Wiki started, I don't recall there being a formal set of standards for photos since it just wasn't really a big deal before now. Oversaturation is my main complaint, since one user a long while ago was going through, taking existing shots into Photoshop and oversaturating the hell out of them without regard to the actual toy, and I've noticed some updated photography like [[Prowl (Magnaboss)]] that does basically the same. It's a larger photo, but that Prowl is definitely not blazing yellow in person. Apologies in advance and please disregard if this has already been discussed elsewhere or before.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:10, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:For the record, my lighting set up is very warm, hence why Prowl's colours appear so bright. I haven't figured out the right balance in Photoshop to get the colours of figures to look spot on so figures either appear too bright or too dull in the finished product. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:30, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::Oh, I'm not intending to put you on the spot, that's just the first example I had on hand of a wider issue that we probably need to start being careful about since it appears to be (hilariously) affecting actual figures now, like Titans Return PMOP or Legacy Iguanus. When it was the one guy tweaking things to be inaccurate "because it looked better", I could follow him and revert stuff, but I can't when there's nothing to revert in most cases.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 18:38, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::I recommend ring lights, you can get some pretty cheap, they've good at spreading light out rather than heavy-focus, and they have adjustable brightness and warm/cool light settings: use "cool" (aka white/blue-tinted). Even before I got ring lights, I used "cool" light bulbs in the lamps. The problem is these are nowhere as common as the "normal" yellow-tinted bulbs, thus, go with the ring lights.
::As for "standards"... well, good luck with that. Every camera's a little different. Every MONITOR is a little different. Hell, I have a double-monitor setup with different models and they have small but distinct differences in brightness & etc; honestly I'm good with it since it lets me check how things may look to different people. But I think maybe a tag for photos that we are CERTAIN are too far off from final product (be they user-made or stock images) may not be a bad idea. Assuming we notice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:44, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, a tag we can throw on to a photo just to make it at least visible that it's incorrect would be useful. And would probably prompt a deco designer to gather some secondary reference material, assuming the tag's obvious. I like the idea.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:29, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I've noticed that the quality of the UT stuff in the toys section flunctuates greatly-- for example, ML Starscream still uses the guidebook picture, and Superlink ver of the combining Optimus downright doesn't exist. I've started to collect UT toys since Hasbro has been updating UT stuff with more commitment and I have 0 faith in them doing it right, and most of the stuff I've gotten are the JP versions. For minor alterations like ML/ Armada Megs, is it worth uploading a completely new picture of ML Megatron onto his page? Another issue worth regarding discussing is "cartoon accuracy". Whilst Hasbro is indeed working on making more accurate figures, they obviously aren't 100% accurate, like 86 starscream using the commonly accepted G1 logo instead of the sunbow accurate one with the spike in the middle, and even from a sculpt and proportional standppint the ER mold is far from accurate compared to the sunbow model, let alone MP52. I actually cleaned up the page for TM2 Megatron because he deviates pretty heavily if you compare the CG model to the final toy, and changed the claim that Skids is "toon" accurate as he is blantently based on the original toy in deco. The same goes for Starscream, aside from the forearms and forehead hes blatently based on the T30 toy. I also had to edit that bit --[[User: Pixelmaster|Pixelmaster]] 3:31 HKT

==Reconsolidating some of our pages==
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, but I'd like to propose re-merging some of our excessively split articles back into something more manageable. It seems like that once a page is split out, a) we get a lot less editorial oversight, as the recent toy page trimming has revealed, b), stuff does not get updated nearly as often as they would be on their respective mainpages, and c) it makes information harder to find by pushing it behind a subpage that's not readily accessible.

Obviously I understand that splits are necessary for the really long pages like [[Optimus Prime (G1)]], [[Megatron (G1)]], and soforth, but when you get down to like, [[Mirage (G1)]] or [[Hound (G1)]] or [[Hot Shot (Armada)]], there's barely anything of any significance on their main pages beyond Dreamwave or the odd IDW cameo. Are, for instance, [[Ravage (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ravage]]'s Marvel adventures that major that they can't fit into the main page? Are [[Hook (G1)/toys|Hook]] or [[Warpath (G1)#Toys|Warpath]] really that inundated with toys that they need their own subpage? If it's a problem of just ''length'', then a lot of the subpaged articles or mainpage stuff like the storybooks could just be trimmed down into something more manageable—as I did with G1 Cliffjumper's Marvel section earlier this year. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 17:00, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:I 100% agree with this. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:04, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Fully in favour. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 17:20, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Sub-pages should, on their own, be significantly sizable pages to justify making readers link-jump. A dozen toys does not strike me as remotely enough to justify a subpage split. Being ''in'' a major long-running fiction but mostly having appearances in a minority of installments that can be summed up in two sentences doesn't justify a split. New editing tools are fun and all, but just 'cuz you gotta new hammer doesn't mean you have to go hunting for anything that looks vaguely nail-like. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:18, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Incoming maintenance ==

Just a heads up, our host is going to be doing some maintenance in about an hour that may cause problems with the site, so if you have trouble reaching it and therefore cannot read this message, that's what it is. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:11, 23 November 2022 (EST)

== Foreign names ==

A dispute came up recently on the [[Megatron (ES)]] page. User:Kiké Prime has been providing Hungarian names for all the characters, but this one apparently is just "Megatron". Cyberlink420 removed it. I disputed it, pointing out that not listing it leaves the implication that we do not know the name of the character in the language. Despite having my reversion again reverted, I still find deliberately leaving blanks in our name lists odd. I am thus bringing the matter here for further discussion. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:16, 5 December 2022 (EST)
:My understanding has always been that we only add foreign names if they are different from the English name. Per pages like [[Megatron (G1)]], this includes examples where the name is the same, but is spelled with a diacritic or using a different alphabet. So "Megatron" wouldn't be different enough to justify inclusion, but examples like Mégatron, Megatrón, Мегатрон and メガトロン would. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:10, 5 December 2022 (EST)

== Nonbinary Character Category ==

So, we now have another nonbinary character (who actually used their pronouns during the media no less), [[Nightshade (ES)|Nightshade]] from [[Transformers: EarthSpark (franchise)|Earthspark]] (Nightshade at time of posting doesn't have a page yet)! The other fully for certain fully intentional one is [[Screwball]] from [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] while [[Acid Storm (Cyberverse)|Acid Storm]] was at least an out of media by writer retcon of animation, and [[Overlord_(G1)#Ask_Vector_Prime|Overlord's]] gender is somewhat nebulous on where that fits beyond being gender expansive due to being [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#December 23, 2015|"what some would call genderfluid"]] but that at least puts us at three. Given that we have a trans category now we thought it best to at this point suggestion a nonbinary category for the sake of users (including gender expansive people) easily finding nonbinary characters on here. Obviously adding Nightshade will have to wait until they have a page but any thoughts on this yea or nay? [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 18:28, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:I forgot about Screwball. I think with three confirmed examples, even without the edge case of Overlord, that's probably enough to justify one. Care will have to be taken, however, to only include confirmed examples and not use it as a dumping ground for any character whose gender has never been explicitly identified. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:37, 8 December 2022 (EST)
::Authorial intent and all, but I can say that if I had the option to go back and rewrite it I would have used the term non binary for Overlord. I feel like Acid Storm is more of an edge case; it’s what one person said on their account to justify it. Whenever Acid Storm actually says something they’re animated with a female face; it’s not done at random.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:47, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::Acid Storm changes from masculine male to feminine female and back. Gender-fluid, sure, but definitely non-binary? As for Overlord, in the Legends manga Mega gives Overlord a female-presenting face - is there a pronoun change during that time? Would we have more candidates for inclusion in a Gender-fluid category first? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:17, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::::Thank for the notes folks, that does help to piece this together! Just want to note that a pronoun change is not necessary for a gender being experienced in fluidity to be the one expressed or what have you, so unless the Legends manga actually has some sort of statement about Overlord's fluidity that kind of puts us back with an umbrella term of nonbinary (which we are unsure as not having read the Legends manga if that would work for that Overlord so we can't speak to where/if Overlord falls under gender expansiveness beyond the fact that Overlord's presentation changes depending on the binary bond partner right?). Acid Storm is an edge case yes but if we do count the edge case that they are we think it is worth noting that for Acid Storm what Catt said was specifically that changing expression is just something they do, and "any pronouns" work for Acid Storm, no statement about the binary. Of course, we only see two faces which are the two different Seeker faces that were otherwise delineated by gender, but at this point we're getting into the opt-in thing of 'x person is genderfluid and thus considers themself nonbinary' or 'z person is genderfluid and only considers themself as under the multigender umbrella'. Which we don't have detail on really if Acid Storm is genderfluid as how they know themselves right? Because that's just a thing that was written in the Female Transformers page because of (no blame being given, it's understandable) the user finding that to be the term that fit best? Feel like we've ended up just pointing out an need for just a gender expansive category instead but ah well. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:46, 1 January 2023 (EST)
::::::We seem to have killed this with a non-solution for the nonbinary category by pointing out that gender expansive is more certain than saying genderfluid. If we count Nightshade, Overlord, and Screwball, is that a go on nonbinary, or should we just have a gender expansive category at this point that would also be one trans characters use? For people wondering what gender expansive means you can find a definition here https://www.diversitystyleguide.com/glossary/gender-expansive/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/08/gender-expansive-mean/ [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:18, 6 February 2023 (EST)
:::::::Respectfully, I think needing to invoke a glossary suggests the term is so little-used in common parlance that it would not be useful for our needs and style. We don't have a category tag at the bottom of a bunch of BW characters saying "tetrapods" or "perissodactyls" (we ''do'' talk like that on [[Popular beast alternate modes]], maybe a grouping ''page'' would be a better approach? Just a thought...). If we are looking for a category tag I think it would be better to find the term that unambiguously covers the largest number of candidates, without a need to rely on edge cases, maintaining both accuracy and readability. I see three characters that could sensibly go in a Gender-fluid tag, one that could go in a Non-binary tag (meaning we wouldn't make the latter). We may be facing a case where there are few enough disparate examples that there isn't one single category tag that usefully unites them. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:55, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::::::::With the most recent block of EarthSpark episodes having further explored Nightshade's character and introduced a new nonbinary character in the form of Sam (this also saw the term nonbinary used in the show for the first time), we have been discussing the topic of introducing a Nonbinary characters category on the Discord. Doing some research, AVP also confirmed the Tigerhawk of Primax 496.22 Alpha (the Beast Wars cartoon continuity) to be nonbinary, so that's another character to justify that category. It's been suggested by an expert on the matter that we could introduce a "Gender expansive characters" category as an umbrella category, with Genderfluid characters, Nonbinary characters, and Transgender characters existing as subcategories as a way of future-proofing our coverage of gender expansive characters, while also ensuring we don't lump every gender expansive character together into a single broad category and hopefully making these concepts easier to navigate for casual readers. - [[User:Archforce|Archforce]] ([[User talk:Archforce|talk]]) 17:26, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::In sequence you replied to my post of Feb 7 but seem to have side-stepped the part where I questioned the usefulness of a category tag that will not be widely understood. Also, creating such a category exactly ''is'' "lumping them all together into a single broad category." So is that approach desirable or not? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::: They said the word nonbinary in the show. In a show full of nonbinary rep. And then nonbinary characters exists outside of that show, and it would not be a dangerous bet to expect this to continue. But people are born with an innate understanding of what an Alpha Primax 9384u743 is, or Transmetals, or Powermasters, but not what a nonbinary person is so yeah maybe we are going too far on this website for nerds who want to learn more about things related to Transformers (like nonbinary characters). We have a category called council members. Literally for any character who has served on any council. I did not understand what "council members" actually refered to before I clicked on it, assumed it was more specific than it was, but in fact it took me two seconds to figure it out. A non-binary category and/or gender-expansive category would surely be the same. And as Archforce says, make these concepts easier to navigate. Or if that was too long, what Walky said. Seriously. You also appear to misunderstand what is meant by lumping together. Because putting all non-binary people in a non-binary category is accurate, and is something I and at least some others want, putting all non-binary people on a transgender page would be a misrepresentative "all of these are the same thing right?". Gender-expansive on the other hand comes from someone familiar with the matter, and as a non-binary person myself, as someone who has researched gender representation in media at an honours level (to flex some credentials that yeah I could be making up), I agree with what is being said on the Discord. Gender expansive as an umbrella provides the room to not lump everyone together while recognising yeah there is something shared in any act of gender that is not one of cisgender conformity. Having transgender and nonbinary characters on the same page while called out as two seperate subcategories I again think helps casual readers navigate based on this. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 18:40, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::Not using the best useful terms because they're not understood by enough people is extremely self-defeating. I reject that line of thinking. (also, like, c'mon, the first complete article for this wiki was gaddang Robot-Master, not Optimus Prime, so I think we can say the words "gender expansive" even if someone hasn't heard of them) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:49, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::Thank you all for the discussion! To clarify regarding aesthetics (because gender is aesthetics, we can give recommendations on stuff to read re that), the term gender expansive does not in fact cover everybody, merely all the bots we're talking about it in this instance and likely future unless we get canon transformers fiction that actually uses a variable alien aesthetic system that isn't gender but is something similar. To put this another way: not all human societies' aesthetic category concepts and formulation of individual and collective context for self such as pronouns, names, expressions, (to use Leslie Feinberg's words for navigating transness and gender itself, the 'poetics,' not just construction) etc. used or uses those in a way that neatly fits modern Western gender constructs with a large number of examples both from outside Europe and within it. In a similar vein some xeno aesthetic spectrum folks (like some of ourselves, and yes we're getting very obscure here the gender parallel is xenogender) and speculative fiction/sci-fi about aliens live or navigates the idea of aesthetic structures that are not gender at all but merely overlap or parallel.
:::::::::::Transformers fiction has really only touched on the subject of the alien aspect of the bots' gender or lack thereof when trying to portray that something is there by e.g.; parallel with the embodying and living of their various modes such as when Lodestar speaks to having weapon retrofit dysphoria in the 2021 annual (yes, the 'embodying and living' is something we're borrowing from Gayle Salamon on how she frames gender), their unique histories, the December 23rd 2015 AVP gender answer having a note about continuities where the concept of gender is barely relevant, and possibly that time 'gal' got put in quotations (it's still unclear what Maggs meant by that but that's okay). So rest assured that while gender expansive is a broad category- it only future proofs us until alien terminology or narrative that is clearly shown in replacement of when gender would otherwise be used in a story actually happens in canon. Which would be incredibly exciting, but isn't where we are right now. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:11, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::But we are nonetheless at a special point in time in the transformations of transformers, that the categories genderfluid, nonbinary, and gender expansive would be useful for. <3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:15, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::Gosh that felt good to dedicating an afternoon to doing, thank you for the help! We feel that [[Editor|Chief]] ought to be included in the gender expansive category, and given the entry regarding Tigerhawk that was mentioned here, Spittor arguably also could be [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#May_23.2C_2015|"In some universes where Spittor scans an organic alternate mode, his biological system conforms to female while his Cybertronian gender identity is male."]]. Chief seems fairly obvious? RE Spittor where his situation could be argued to break down is the cybertronian understanding of gender maybe not matching gender and anatomy as framed by humans but then that in itself still qualifies. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:32, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::: *shrugs* maybe the latter re Spittor and similar situations is just something to note in an eventual article rather than to throw in the category itself [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:45, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::I'm gonna say that I'm for Editor while Spittor is ultimately a way of just saying that his alt-mode is a female frog even though he's male. Ala Tigatron in the cartoon, Waspinator, etc. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:57, 5 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::::Thank you, that helps clarify things! :3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:47, 5 March 2023 (EST)

== Adding an informative table to each character page ==
I was thinking about it since it's striking.. lack.. There should be a way to tell people in which and how many episodes/issues/movies each character appears in the continuity they belong to, their debut episode/issue movie, what aliases they have had and nicknames they were given by other characters, a more centered area for the voice or live actors, a link to their gallery pages(if they have any) and one to their disambiguation pages etc. The kind of information that one would prefer to find with greater ease, especially if they aren't members. And talking about their appearances, that should prove quite useful for future page edits, since we'll know exactly where to look especially when it's about latecomers or characters that don't appear on a regular basis. I just think it'd be useful. [[User:Darthrone|Darthrone]] ([[User talk:Darthrone|talk]]) 15:44, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:This kind of infobox was discussed at the very earliest days of this wiki, and it was decided that there was just way, way too much information for it to work... and this was in 2006, BEFORE the franchise exploded. TF is such a fragmented kludge of fictions from multiple sources and creators spanning 40 years that any major character would end up with one ultra-massive thing of dubious use (can't say I see the value in a "number of appearances" tally, aside from the headache of keeping that accurate over time and arguing "what counts"), or a billion splintered ones spread across the page for the different fictions. And "nicknames" is always a minefield as those tend to turn into a massive list of "someone called them this once" which is... not helpful. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:46, 2 February 2023 (EST)
::Even if it had been a day-1 thing, I don't see how this is more informative than our current style. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:58, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:::I'm for infoboxes, but the information you're asking for is far too abstract and meaningless in this franchise. (We are absolutely not doing "nicknames". No.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:09, 2 February 2023 (EST)

==The (BWU) tag==
I understand the reasons why [[#Proposal re: G1 pages|my previous proposal]] regarding the proliferation of (G1) pages for random newer characters was soundly rejected. However, my main motivation for raising it was that I find the huge quantity of (BWU) pages for "repurposed" Mini-Cons and bestial Transformers to be reader-unfriendly, so I wanted to make a case for making an exception for ''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]'' cameos. ''Uprising'' was an obscure barely-canon multi-continuity-drifting web serial which we are very unlikely to get further instalments of, and most of the relevant characters are similarly very deep pulls who will assuredly not be appearing again in future stories, and who will otherwise be stuck with tiny stub-pages forever. Most of these are Mini-Cons (here Micromasters) or bestial Transformers (here Protoformers), with a few boats or Constructicons from "[[Derailment]]". In many cases, I perceive ''Uprising'' as having tried to give these toys a hint of fiction where previously they had none at all, much like [[Ask Vector Prime]] before it. It's a very different phenomenon to most so-called "continuity transplants" we've seen in other series (such as with, say, [[Hot Shot (G1)]]), which are instead rooted in the popularity of those characters.

I think the problem here is that strictly speaking ''Uprising'' is a "Primax" continuity, sure, but it lifts dozens of characters (let alone concepts) unchanged from later stories. Slavishly hewing to that label when it's such an intertextual melting pot has resulted in this unfriendly setup. It feels like a fair decision made at the time (was [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive64#Derailment & Uprising pages|this discussion]] the one?) but in my opinion the wiki's policy kinda fails here. If we get rid of the (BWU) tag, the (G1) back-ports remaining (a minority!) will be for more significant characters, often adapted more radically. Here's the list of tiny pages we could be rid of, just like that:

*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]

There's a handful of ''Uprising'' characters that need a (G1) page anyway for non-''Uprising'' reasons; I'm totally ambivalent about where the ''Uprising'' content ends up for these: [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Override (BWU)]] (!), [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Twirl (G1)]].

Finally there's a few weird cases that would merit individual discussion but would probably just need to keep their own pages: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]].

Here is a ([https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&redirs=1&profile=all&search=%22from+the%22+%22continuity+families%22 probably non-exhaustive]) list of existing cases of multi-continuity drifting you should probably consider before weighing in:
* [[Buckethead]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 31, 2015|this Ask Vector Prime answer]])
* [[Drydock (TF 2010)]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 13, 2015|this answer]] which explicitly has him travel from one continuity to another)
* [[Drelnar Feh'd]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 17, 2015|this one]])
* [[Scorpia (G2)]], [[Autoceptor]], [[Deceptor]], and [[Kaltor]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#June 12, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Clear Skies Team]], [[Rapid Intervention Team]], [[Prehistoric Team]], [[Demolition Team]], [[Dirt Digger Team]], [[Heavy Load (Universe)]] and the [[Mobile Fortification Team]], and [[Detectas]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]]).
**However, exceptions from these Mini-Con teams are [[Nightscream (Cybertron)|Nightscream]], [[Offshoot (Cybertron)|Offshoot]], [[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]] and [[Knockdown (Cybertron)|Knockdown]], who all have separate (Cybertron) basis on the basis of receiving separate bios after being packed in with ''Cybertron'' Primus...
**...but then [[Liftor]] is all on a single page, despite his ''Classics'' bio.
**[[Snarl (Classics)|Snarl]], [[Sledge (Classics)|Sledge]], [[Wideload (Classics)|Wideload]], [[Knockdown (Classics)|Knockdown]], and [[Steel Wind]] already have ''Uprising'' content on their pages, but that makes sense as these were originally ''Classics'' guys.
* The [[Saurian Strike Team]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Minicon 8 Pack]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 24, 2015|this one]])
* The ''Dark of the Moon'' Mini-Cons [[Dualor (DOTM)]], [[Triceradon (DOTM)]], [[Rav (DOTM)]], and [[Catilla (DOTM)]], plus [[Ironlunge]], [[Reptix]], [[Sling (AOE)]], [[Gnashteeth]], [[Wedge Shape]], [[Brimstone (Universe)]], [[Apexus]], [[Gredator]], and [[Dragoyell]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#August 13, 2015|this one]])
** Weirdly, we ''separately'' have a page for [[Rav (BWU)]], but Catilla has Unicron Trilogy, movie, and ''Uprising'' appearances covered all on the one page!
* [[Galadria]] and [[Ramak]] (because of [[Source:Transformers: Spacewarp's Log#December 5, 2015|this post]])
* Am I to understand that [[Wind Sheer (RID)]], [[Skyfire (RID)]] and the [[Dimensional Patrol]] each have just a single page because (RID) ''is'' part of the G1 continuity family sometimes...?
* And I understand that [[Primus Vanguard]] cameos just go on their original pages because that's a weird thing kinda outside of G1 anyway (at least from an in-universe perspective, if not a real-world one).
* ''Diaclone'' examples like [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], and [[Chifumi Takahashi]] have been discussed to death.
* [[Monsterous]] was retconned to originally be from an Aligned universe (in [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#October 21, 2015|this post]], though I can't actually find any mention of Uniend? EDIT: [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#November 7, 2015|found it]]!)
* [[Primacron]] was apparently mentioned in ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II| The AllSpark Almanac II]]''.
* And [[Sentinel Supreme]] is just an Easter egg that everyone seemed to shrug about at the time.

To those who say the exception I'm proposing would be confusing, I submit these existing examples where we've apparently neglected to split something out as evidence that the only people this confuses are wiki editors like me wondering why they're not all that way. Maybe I'm just unaware of some aspect of the existing policy which accounts for all these cases? But is it really helpful to anyone to have a given toy's associated fiction squirrelled away somewhere separate you have to go into the disambiguation to find? We recently merged [[Chromhorn]] (another Sorenson job) on the basis that "There's literally no reason for these to be on different pages. They are the same thing." Can we not do the same for these Sorenson-penned cases that are basically going "look, the exact same guy shows up in multiple universes, alright?" And if the answer is no, will someone go through and split all these out? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:27, 6 February 2023 (EST)

:I think my response to your earlier G1-import proposal still applies here: the more exceptions we make to our system for the sake of "accessibility", the harder the overall structure becomes to grok for a new reader, and thus ironically it all becomes ''less'' accessible. Why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steel Jaw]], but ''Uprising'' Bisk be at [[Bisk (RID)]]? Or, conversely, why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steeljaw (RID)]], but LBS Steeljaw be at [[Steel Jaw|Steeljaw (IDW)]]? Neither solution is good.
:As for the current list of exceptions, I'd argue everything you list from Buckethead to the DOTM Mini-Cons should probably be split. Galadria and Ramak are characters from outside media, so we don't split them across continuity lines. Wind Sheer and Skyfire have one page for consistency with the other RID guys. The source on Monsterous being Aligned is [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#November_7.2C_2015|here]], but I would argue that's just giving an origin to the GoBot and so they should share a page anyway.
:Lastly - I object to you bringing the Chromhorn thing into this, as I don't think it's a fair comparison. Chromhorn wasn't making any exception to our categorisation system; it was one page saying "Chromhorn is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT" and another saying "Chromhorn Forest Type is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT", and the former was somehow a "repurposing" of the fictionless latter. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:24, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::Totally get the Steeljaw example—although it ''is'' crazy that we're currently disambiguating G1 wolf Steeljaw simply by [[Steel Jaw]]. You should post about the disambiguation tag policy change you suggested on Discord, I think a lot of people were thinking along similar lines there. Agree with your interpretation of the current policy as to which of the examples listed should be split and which shouldn't—although the more I think about the Primus Vanguard, the more I think those should technically be split too. While I guess the [[Time Warrior (AVP)|Time Warrior]]s are multiversal travellers like Drydock. RE: Chromhorn, I understand why it's technically different; I brought it up because I think it speaks to the tenor of ''Ask Vector Prime'' answers—in spirit, I think its aim was exactly the same as with the Mini-Con examples I've given.
::What do I mean by that? To match your Steeljaw example, from the opposite angle: say I'm your typical fan scrolling [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)]], and I click on, say, [[Dualor (DOTM)]], wondering if he's ever shown up in anything. In their current state, I get my answer immediately. With the proposed split for consistency, I instead get a page telling me that Dualor (DOTM) is a dinosaur Mini-Con from ''Dark of the Moon'', some info about the toy, ''maybe'' ending with an inscrutable note about how he was "repurposed" as an identical guy. Now, there's ''already'' an unrelated [[Dualor (Armada)]], so we'd need to make a disambiguation page. We can see this already by looking at [[Snow Cat (Universe)]], which is barren (the very scenario AVP so often tried to address!), and doesn't even admit to the existence of [[Snow Cat (BWU)]] aside from a general Snow Cat disambiguation tag. In some existing cases like [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], we've mirrored a toy writeup, which needs upkeep in parallel; in others, like Snow Cat, we're asking the user to visit the other page to read about the toy ''anyway''. To my mind, this is inarguably less accessible. I don't understand arguments made about accessibility here which are predicated on readers having learned editing policy to begin with, and I don't think this proposal would actually make it any harder to learn the system.
::I regret not listing out all the individual members of those Mini-Con teams above, to better communicate the sheer number of pages that would need to be made (and pages that would need to be renamed, in case of conflicts) to create this inconvenience in service of a rule we've already been ignoring without issue. Nobody wants to do this work, and I think it's less that no-one cares, and more that some people think it'd actually make the wiki worse, and the rest don't particularly think it'd make the wiki better.
::What about just making an exception for Mini-Cons/Micromasters? I've talked about ''Uprising'', but obviously the vast majority of cases that theoretically need splitting aren't from ''Uprising'' at all. Could probably even do a generic template like "X exists in multiple continuity families, and is a Micromaster/Maximal/Predacon in those without Mini-Cons". Thus your Steeljaws and Bisks and Overrides go unchanged, no problems or ambiguity there! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
:Once upon a time, I probably would have pushed for something like this, but where we are now: I am not a fan of any push towards treating something differently based on how "relevant" something is or not. It goes against the very spirit this wiki was founded on, because that is what was happening to the Wikipedia coverage of Transformers where they were just getting rid of things wholesale because of "relevancy." I can understand the basic point behind this, but I feel that doing so would set a bad precedent that could be exploited in the future.
:I'd be fine with splitting most of these out. I've said it before elsewhere but by and large a lot of the inconsistencies were largely the result of different contributors adding stuff or splitting stuff without a general consensus, and they haven't been cleaned up afterwards. Also, a minor note, but the Liftor thing was mainly cause no one noticed at the time until I wrote up about the profile years after the fact. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:26, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::If I gave the impression "relevancy" was the main thrust of my argument here, I didn't mean to! Like, it goes both ways—would we be merging because ''Uprising'' is so irrelevant that we shouldn't devote all these random stub pages to it, ''or'' are we merging because it's sufficiently relevant that we shouldn't be hiding that content in stub pages nobody visits? Either is true! I'm arguing for convenience and clarity. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: This definitely feels like the strongest argument to the merge in my mind. The wiki is no stranger to niche pages, pages for nameless, fictionless, toyless nonentities. But I believe these fictionless toys and toyless fiction which are really the same thing would be a richer niche page for the merges. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 20:36, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: I really think that once again, this overrates the number of people who would be confused by this, and underrates the number of people who would be able to figure out where to go if they wish to find the information. Like, I hate to do the whole "I was able to figure it out" thing but I was a small child with a single-digit age when I first discovered the wiki and I was able to figure out pretty quick why it was laid out the way it was. I'm not saying there's no room for improvement; I think there's a lot of cases in which the way we have things set up now is kind of ridiculous. But in this particular case, I don't really see how merging things would be any more convenient than just leaving them the way they are and splitting out the cases that we never got around to. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:52, 7 February 2023 (EST)

Just found some more pages that would need splitting under current policy: [[Crystal Widow]], [[Seawave]], [[Cradon]], [[Freefall (Kre-O)]], [[Liftoff]], and [[Epsilon Holdings]]. All due to ''Uprising'' and ''The Allspark Almanac''. Really hoping someone can propose a solution here that doesn't involve creating a billion pages and disambigs. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 09:24, 18 February 2023 (EST)
:We don't split businesses/locations/organizations, so Epsilon Holdings isn't one we need to consider. Kre-O doesn't really occupy a continuity family in our organization and I would just split the rest, especially Crystal Widow. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:28, 18 February 2023 (EST)

Noticed the ''[[Transformers: Earth Wars| Earth Wars]]'' stub templates on Mini-Con pages for [[Wheeljack Kunai]] and [[Bido]]. The game had previously added [[Gabu]], [[Zori]], [[Baru]], [[Bashbreaker]], [[Windstrike]], and [[Tricerashot]]. Following policy, these should ''all'' be split—see [[Giza (POTP)]] and [[Giza (Prime)]], although to be fair they're not the same animal at least. As always, I think the fiction for those toys should go on the pages for those toys. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 12:39, 17 March 2023 (EDT)

Just finished going through documenting the preliminary bios for the [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Predator Attack Team]], and [[Mini-Con Council of Sages]], from when the ''Classics'' Mini-Cons were still going to be released as ''Cybertron'' two-packs, and it occurs to me that if ''all'' of those guys end up getting duplicate pages, the Unicron Trilogy pages would be where that information should probably end up. Right now it's all a bit of a mess, as some of those characters have (Cybertron) pages via the Primus bonus-pack-in, some don't, and others had their names changed from their would've-been ''Cybertron'' incarnations anyway. I've generally tried to stick to linking to the existing pages rather than redlinking—naturally I remain convinced that it'd be for the best if we didn't distinguish between ''Classics'' and ''Cybertron'' at all in this case and just kept all the relevant information for each of those Mini-Cons on one page per; I think [[Liftor]] is proof that this is in fact perfectly fine and much, much less of a headache for readers. See whatever the hell is going on with the page for the [[Night Rescue Team]], which names the patrol car as "[[Strongarm (Classics)|Strongarm]]/[[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]]" as though that's something which makes any sense at all. Tangentially, I also reckon the material from these early bios (which evidently made it out via the official Hasbro website ''somehow'') should probably just be written up in fiction sections proper, along the lines of, say, cancelled Dreamwave issues...? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:03, 23 April 2023 (EDT)
:The Cybertron Primus pack-in guys had bios written by Sepelak and Troop (who also wrote the bios for the Classics guys) that deliberately made them different characters for the Club website with little in common besides their physical appearances. It's not a case of "old rules" at all, it was something specific done at the time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:28, 23 April 2023 (EDT)

==Wikia links still around?==
https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Smelting_pool&direction=prev&oldid=109505
Are other archived "intermediate / obsolete" edit pages still pointing to Wikia? Or have they been somehow neutralized? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:52, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
:Not exactly sure what you're asking? I mean, the link is literally part of the text in that edit, so it wouldn't be removed. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:25, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
::Is that page (and presumably any other intermediate edit page from those years) still directing search engines to Wikia? Some years ago it was seen as pretty urgent that every last such link be removed, regardless of location. Not "gone from current pages," gone from ''everything''. As I recall, there were even refs to Wikia pre-struck-out on pages so people could only see them in mid-edit, but they were still boosting Wikia's rankings, and an admin had to create a bot to scrape them out of everywhere. If they still persist on hundreds of intermediate edit pages from those years, should those pages be totally erased, as they would be when randos insert porn or hate speech here? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:10, 26 May 2023 (EDT)
:::Historic page revisions are not indexed by Google, so they won't boost Wikia rankings. Those links will be present on any revisions before March 2008, as those revisions are from a backup imported from when the site was on Wikia. We still do have some Wikia links on live pages ([[Miscolorings based on the Generation 1 cartoon]] is an example) but those links will be marked nofollow as all external links are, so they should, in theory, not be boosting Wikia's ranking either. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:04, 26 May 2023 (EDT)

== ROTB being a reboot - what should we do with that? ==

I don't necessarily hold an opinion on this issue, but according to an interview with the director of ROTB, Rise of the Beasts will be a reboot of the live-action movie franchise. Will this affect how existing articles are grouped and written? Or does the wiki just consider it a case of authorial intent? ([https://news.tfw2005.com/2023/05/27/transformers-rise-of-the-beasts-director-steven-caple-jr-confirms-rotb-set-in-a-rebooted-universe-484900 source]) [[User:Gigirassy|Gigirassy]] ([[User talk:Gigirassy|talk]]) 16:19, 27 May 2023 (EDT)
:The wiki is intentionally waiting for the movie's official release to make a stand on the matter. Regardless, even if the movie is a reboot it will not affect the wiki as much as you may be thinking it will; both movie series will simply be considered as two different continuities that are still part of the same continuity family overall (just like the multitude of G1 universes out there that are all in the same family). What may or may not happen is some characters may get splitted pages depending on if there's enough evidence for that, but for now all we can do is just wait and see. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:56, 27 May 2023 (EDT)

== Adaptation notes ==

Can we figure out a way to format this information that isn't an ugly and intrusive note that fucks up the formatting? Like, convert them into storylinks or references. Collapsible notes. Something. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:(also probably take a weed whacker to the insane number of images people try to stuff into those film sections but that's another discussion) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:09, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
::I second that. Though we would also have to find a place to put the extra information those notes sometimes provide about how the adaptation differs from the source material. Like how [[Optimus Prime (Movie)#Transformers film|Optimus Prime]]'s notes on the 07 movie mention he kills Barricade in the adaptations when that doesn't happen in the movie itself. Or the very recent example of how ROTB [[Wheeljack (ROTB)|Wheeljack]] appears [[Mission at the Museum|in a book based entirely on the half of the movie he wasn't supposed to appear in]]. So how will we deal with that? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:40, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Against this. When it comes to an informational wiki, utility should be a higher priority than aesthetic taste. Speaking of aesthetics, however… [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:We can be informative without haphazardly shoving "hey, here's some inconsequential adaptations you likely don't care about" into readers' faces. Not all information is created equal, as we've already established by hiding any VAs that the great majority of readers don't care about. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:41, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

I'd be against this. The notes make it clear that one thing is an adaptation of another, allow differences to be described succinctly without wholesale repetition of an entire story section, and I honestly think a mass of stoylyinks for every movie character in the first 3 Bay films after their write-up would be far more visually obtrusive and difficult to parse than the note that's already there, for example.[[User:AkibaSilver|AkibaSilver]] ([[User talk:AkibaSilver|talk]]) 22:31, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm gonna more or less agree with the above. Storylinks are ''absolutely'' a bad idea once you get beyond, like, two in a row. And I really don't feel like there's ever going to be enough adaptations of any one thing to justify a whole template, where "voice actors in a dozen languages" and "holy crap they redecoed/retooled/rereleased this toy THIS MANY TIMES" certainly can get hugely bulky. And honestly, if they're not a huge list, I like the easy discoverability of keeping them in a note below; hiding them whiffs of "we should de-prioritize the coloring books and not-current media on character pages" that we rejected from the get-go. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:56, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

== Images and formatting ==

Here’s something that baffles me; at least far back as the MP announcement of the Trainbots, there’s been a push by some to remove images from articles for reasons that mostly elude me. I agree that a lot of our older writeups have images that aren’t good, but what I don’t get is the removal of them from sections that only have one image. Sure, a lot of the time it’s for characters that have very minor roles in something, but I’ve always thought that McFeely’s way of making articles (by getting the best possible image of each character in every section whenever possible) is the gold standard for how we make articles. On a loosely related note; I’m not convinced by Sipher’s recent push to align images to the right; I think the alternating thing we usually have is much cleaner (aside from in toy sections). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:29, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
: Opening a section with a left-justified image almost invariably fucks up the normal "flow" of how your eyes move when you reach the end of a line: you move down and ''left'' to the next line. Most of the time, left-justified images at the top of the section push that next line of text to the ''right'' of the header. It may look "better" if you unfocus and just look at the page as a blur, but if you're actually ''reading'' the text, it's a subtle but very there stumbler. If it's a section where there's a "voice actors" bit or a note template ''above'' the image where the end of that is ''definitely'' going to end up beyond the rightmost border of the image, that's fair. ''Every'' image doesn't have to be on the right. Alternating is fine within longer sections. But opening with left should be used sparingly and judiciously. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

==Two things sandboxed a while ago maybe we might consider==
*[[User:M Sipher/Sandbox:ToysBullets]]
*[[User:M Sipher/sandbox:ToypageAltmodesAdded]]
I mean I'm not gonna lie, these are both in the "oh my grodd so many pages" realm, and worse, they're not something we can really get a bot to do. But, Iunno, something to consider.<br>
The insignia bullet point thing on individual character pages, only so many characters have toys across multiple factions (most would have G1/G2 variants), so this doesn't feel as "important" an addition, but, well. Could be useful. Adding altmodes to the toyline page listings, however, I think there's a decent case for, especially when dealing with obscure toy-only characters in lines loaded to the gills with toys. It'll certianly help the "man I remember I had this cool toy what was its name" searches. And it involves tweaking considerably fewer pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:09, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm in favor of the first from a readability standpoint. It just looks better. On the alt modes, I worry it might open the door to edit skirmishes on some of the more vague vehicle modes out there (thinking specifically of Devcon that just came out, or things that are just indeterminate like Cybertron Menasor or Protoform Optimus/Starscream), that just "Cybertronic car/jet/whatever" isn't a common term people outside the Wiki would really think to search, and how specific we'd need to get a la "truck" versus "longnose truck" versus "Peterbilt 379 truck". Hard to call, in my opinion.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 23:37, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
::The bullet points hit me a little weird at first but I could get used to them, I think it's a neat idea. And I can see the inclusion of alt modes in toy pages as something useful, though no doubt a lot of pages would have to be slightly rearranged to make room for them. Regardless, I'd gladly give a hand with some of the editing if either one gets approved. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 09:46, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
::: RE: altmodes on toyline pages... As far as "arguments" go, you get those ''anyway''. I think for these pages we can afford a bit of looseness ("red Lamborghini" for 1984 Sideswipe since there's a lot of sports cars (and two Lambos) in that line/assortment, "blue sports car" for Cyb Hot Shot since there are fewer "sports cars" in that line), giving enough for a quick ID'ing. Spacing... yeah, this will stretch the pages vertically a bit, but like, that's generally fine if the space has ''information'' in it. Plus it will likely mean we can add another pic to the right-hand side of many sections, letting us give a few more examples. And it'll beef up the absolutely anemic sections slightly. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 01:53, 29 June 2023 (EDT)
:So, anyone got any objections to these, other than "holy hell that's a lot of manual work"? If anything, it'd also be a good excuse to go in and find out what entries are in need of some sprucing up and getting to today's standards... properly sorting the features into cohesive paragraphs, moving release dates to bullet points, trimming excess or filling out light writeups, making sure links to other toys have the proper anchors, etc. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:32, 4 July 2023 (EDT)
::The faction symbols look neat, no issue there. ''Really'' dislike the alt-mode descriptions on the toyline pages; it's a huge amount of visual noise for very little informational gain, not even to mention the actual work involved. I honestly think they would be very error-prone as a rule, or at the very least lead to some extremely tiresome debates—for example, you've labelled Soundwave/Sideways as "Cybertronian" jets, but my understanding is that they're not Cybertronians at all...? Even until pretty recently, I often find myself clicking links on toy pages only to find that they've been broken by the epidemic of "/toys" splits (and then the subsequent merges now that that's being corrected!); so far as I'm concerned, if you're consistently able to click a link on a toyline page and immediately jump to a write-up with an actual image of the toy in question, that'd be far more useful than a brief indicator of alt-mode, especially considering most readers are going to know that Starscream probably turns into "a jet". Something else this has brought to mind for me, though—for the ''Cybertron'' toyline, could be nice to have extra faction bullets for the various Cyber Key types they came with! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:53, 6 July 2023 (EDT)
::: Late to the party, but I've seen some of the faction bullets have been implemented in some character articles and I really like how they look. I think it will also help in the long run with figures that are marketed as a certain faction on Hasbro's websites or packaging, but not on the toy itself or utilized in any fiction. Like, for example: ''Studio Series'' Sentinel Prime. His packaging features a Decepticon insignia, while his instructions feature an Autobot insignia, which means the toy is marketed as both factions, even if both insignia are absent on the toy itself. The alt-mode descriptors, on the other hand, are a no from me, better to leave those kinds of specifics to the toy write ups themselves, as some toy listings in toyline articles are already pretty cluttered as it is, due to all of the characters included in some sets. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:20, 5 August 2023 (EDT)

== Alternators/Binaltech headers on toy pages ==

It feels like something from the old days of the wiki that has become outdated by our modern standards. Binaltech is not its own toyline, it's just the Takara version of Alternators, as reflected by both lines [[Transformers: Alternators|sharing the same page]]. So I propose we stop using "Alternators/Binaltech" headers on toy pages. Keep "Binaltech" on characters that ''only'' have Takara toys and standardize to just "Alternators" on all pages with either only Hasbro toys or both Hasbro and Takara toys. To use similar examples, we only have "[[Fortress Maximus (RID)#Car Robots|Car Robots]]" and "[[Lockdown (RID)#Adventure|Adventure]]" headers on Takara-only toy pages, while all other pages have "Robots in Disguise (2001)" and "Robots in Disguise (2015)" regardless of if they have Takara toys or not. There's no "Robots in Disguise/Car Robots" or "Robots in Disguise/Adventure" headers. So can we please start using the same standard to Alternators? --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 14:58, 29 June 2023 (EDT)

== Energon Universe coverage ==

With Void Rivals #2 due out next week, I think we need to start a discussion about how much coverage we give non-TF issues in the Energon Universe. This isn't like IDW where the shared universe element came years later; we're starting out on the ground floor, with Transformers part of the universe from the very first released issue. It's going to be closely involved with all the comics going forward, so I think we need to figure out if we're going to cover everything, and if not, what qualifies for coverage. For example, it sounds like Energon is going to be a recurring element in both Void Rivals and G.I. Joe. Is that alone enough to qualify, or do there need to be actual Transformers characters? I think we need to start asking these sorts of questions so we can figure out the scope of our coverage. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:39, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I'm fine with covering everything. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 23:42, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I am also in favor of covering it all, the universe has established immediately that Transformers seem to be intrinsic to it, and this way we can keep all reading to one wiki. [[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 23:46, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
::Agreed. They are presenting it as a shared, intrinsically connected universe - and yeah it's called the Energon Universe so that's very clearly transformery to us unless energon moves on from here to be a generic hasbroverse term, which we doubt. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:52, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:Yeah. I think "cover everything" is the best approach to begin with, and then if we want to discuss splitting things off at a later date we can do that. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 00:00, 11 July 2023 (EDT)
:Nothing against a "cover everything" either. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 00:53, 12 July 2023 (EDT)

==Stock image sizes==
Okay, I wanted to bring this up before going on a revertathon but... is there ANY need for HD stock imagery here? Frankly, 4000x2000 images at nearly a meg each seems like absolute overkill and just adding incrementally to server load (good god various Optimuses' toy pages are bad enough as it is, we prolly shouldn't be doing things to make that worse). We just need images big enough to be clear, we're not here to archive print-quality images. I've been sticking to a general 600px vertical with the odd 700px for bigger/more involved toys when doing pics, and like, that sure seems more than fine. Once you hit 1000px it feels real excessive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:01, 3 August 2023 (EDT)

== Video game cameos ==

{{collist|2|
*[[Kunai]]
*[[Sawtooth (G1)]]
*[[Tricerashot (G1)]]
*[[Windstrike (G1)]]
*[[Zori (G1)]]
*[[Bashbreaker (G1)]]
*[[Baru (G1)]]
*[[Bido (G1)]]
*[[Gabu (G1)]]}}

I'm not seeing the point in being persnickety about continuity families when it comes to mobile game cameos, especially when said game already has established characters from other continuity families. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:52, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:If you bothered to do some due diligence, you would know these guys are selectable for individual play, not "cameos". As long as our continuity family policy remains in place, they merit pages just as ''Prime'' Knock Out's G1 transplant does. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:56, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
::Dude, they're support units without any real role in the story (which, again, includes multiversal travelers already). That's cameo level to me. It's not comparable to Knock Out. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:04, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:::Late, but they're definitely not cameos. The COMBAT bots frequently have their own dialogue and play a part in the event storylines. They're probably ''exactly'' the same situation as Knock Out, who so far as I can tell was introduced without any fanfare as to whether he's a native to the ''Earth Wars'' universe or a dimension-hopper. The same even appears true of "Breakdown Prime"! In the past, when characters from other continuities have shown up, there's always been lots of hullabaloo in the dialogues explaining where they've come from. It's silly to make definitive claims one way or another until we successfully scrape the scripts from the last couple of years and can read everything, so under current wiki policy unless someone can produce dialogues where Windstrike says "whoa, this Earth Wars universe is crazy, not at all like my home reality!" we just have to assume they're G1 versions of those characters and give them separate pages. Personally, I would actually ''agree'' that it's really silly to have created all of these tiny stub pages for these so-called "continuity transplants", and even brought up the fact earlier on the Portal that nobody had seemed to consider it problematic when they were all just lumped in on the Aligned pages, but if this is how it's gotta be then someone who feels strongly about the split oughta commit to having the coverage on the G1 pages, not the Aligned pages, and disambiguate between them properly. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:14, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Subcategory trimming ==

Looking at some of our character categories, such as the subcats under [[:Category:Generation 1 Autobots]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Decepticons]], I'm starting to wonder if all of these are strictly necessary. I think there's merit to having categories for whole franchises, but I'm unsure whether we necessarily need to add more categories for inclusion in specific media or toylines, like "G1 cartoon Autobots" or "G1 toy Decepticons"; after a while, it starts to feel a little excessive and perhaps even counterproductive. Thoughts? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:44, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:On the one hand, with "G1" being basically Brobdingnagian in scope, I think media/toyline subcategorization is definitely important... but I'm unsold in either direction on if the Autobot/Decep split in said subcats are necessary. I ''will'' put forward the argument ''for'' the subcategorization that categories are a very helpful method of quick-checking "who's in group x", especially with something as massive as "the Marvel comics cast". Looking for obscure comic Decepticons to maybe feature in something is a lot easier when you don't have to fish through a list that also includes every obscure comic-only Autobot. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:: I"m good for keeping "Generation 1 cartoon" and "Marvel comic" categories the way we do with Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 characters (although I think that the Marvel category should be merged with the preexisting [[:Category:Regeneration One Decepticons]] into a single "Marvel Comics continuity" category). "Generation 1 toy" seems... less necessary to me. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:31, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
::: The [[:Category:Generation 1 Seekers]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Aerialbots]] categories are good and useful categories to me, as the subgroup is the main thing, in these cases (IMO), and the subgroups have been divided on the franchise/continuity-family level.--[[User:Karanseraph|Karanseraph]] ([[User talk:Karanseraph|talk]]) 12:25, 25 August 2023 (EDT)
I would definitely dump the Regeneration One categories. It's just a miniseries, and not a very impactful one at that. Plus, 99% of those characters are already in Marvel G1 anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:30, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Wiki Format ==

I have a question regarding the set-up of this site. It is one of the only ones I've seen not using fandom and has a nice set up. The Gundam fandom users are talking about maybe moving off of fandom, and this site has shown promising to be a potential new site if a similar format can be created but changed to be Gundam style. I know of someone who "runs" the wiki, and would like to possibly get in contact with them to look at this and see if its plausible replacement for that. If anyone can do something like that, or if it's not possible to use this format like that, then please lmk, thnx! (PS: I'm on the discord, GrootimusPrime, if that would be easier contact as that's also how I'll probably get the Gundam wiki spokesperson to see.) [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 11:29, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
:The skin we use is just one of the standard skins that comes with Mediawiki (Monobook) with some styling applied. If they have someone who is expert at tweaking stylesheets, they should be fine doing that, though there are other standard skins they could also look at tweaking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:05, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
::Alright thanks, Ill look into that and relay to Iserlohn. Thanks! [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]])
What hosting service is used? While I'm not quite sure of preferences of admin, I'm just looking into cheaper hosts that can run this wiki to be good and useable for all editors, as they span most of the world, centering around Asia and America. (PS. If anyone knows Fandom gund-wiki users, please keep this on the low-down, we are attempting to keep this relatively low-key as there has been problems between ours and their teams. Thanks.) [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:55, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

== Include these? ==

I feel like on fiction related pages, we should include major event sections (so readers don't have to spend 10h scouring the page for info). And maybe we also should indicate some characters' debut (and also indicate when it is the first time a char appears on that continuity, like hot rod debuting in the movie, then state which ep he debuted in the show proper, and so on so forth).[[User:Poliwag06|Poliwag06]] ([[User talk:Poliwag06|talk]]) 19:26, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
:I feel like this would be more character based, as there are subcategories, mostly of continuities and such, but then major events would typically be character based, as outside of debuts, most characters major events are different than others and arent shared.[[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 10:15, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2023-09-12T13:55:31Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Wiki Format */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. For less wide-reaching subjects, either use articles' individual talk pages or [https://discord.gg/tfwiki our Discord server].

Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
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{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Site Logo revamp ==

Up until now, our rotating logo on the main page tends to have a batch of logos pointing to pages from the most recent franchises and series, plus a few from older franchises that we forgot or didn't bother to remove. I'd like to rework this system a bit to have a more even balance franchise-wise. I think we should have one character for every franchise that has had a cartoon or movie (including the JG1 shows), plus one from each of the major English-language comic runs (Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 at the bare minimum). This would be a good way to demonstrate the breadth of the franchise scope of the wiki, and help drive new readers towards legacy content. (Of course, we'd still have a few extra banners based on whatever is currently running for the "Hey, I know that guy!" factor. Would love to get some thoughts on this, and potentially character suggestions for each franchise. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:59, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:I think this is a great idea! Though, I'm unsure on which characters from each show would be good to use. Like, would we go most popular/memorable characters or just some really random left field obscurities like G1 Skids who appeared in only two episodes of ''The Transformers'', just to get some more eyes on character articles from franchises newer fans may not be fully aware of? Also, would Japanese-exclusive shows include ''Go!'', ''Q-Transformers'' and ''Robotmasters''? If so, maybe even an image from ''Portal'' (the Russian show) would be worthwhile too. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:47, 18 December 2021 (EST)
::Obscure/minor stuff risks just being the GO! Boxes again, and we already have those. For the big logo, best to go with majorish characters from majorish media. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 07:19, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:This sounds like a great idea. We could break it down like this:
G1 Seasons 1 and 2 - Optimus Prime,
TFTM/G1 Seasons 3 and 4 - Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime,
G1 Marvel - Ratchet,
Headmasters - Fort Max,
Masterforce - Minerva,
Victory - Star Saber,
Idk if we would do Zone or any of the Japanese G1 stories that came after,
Beast Wars - Megatron,
Beast Wars II - Lio Convoy,
Beast Wars Neo - Magmatron,
RID/Car Robots - Side Burn,
I've never read Dreamwave so I don't know a good character that represents it,
Unicron Trilogy - Hot Shot,
IDW could be broken into a few character reps because of how long it went on,
IDW Furman Era - IDW Bumblebee,
IDW Post Furman - IDW Galvatron,
IDW MTMTE/LL - Nautica,
IDW RID/OP - IDW Optimus Prime,
Animated - Bulkhead,
Movies - Bumblebee,
WFC Games - Bruticus,
Prime - Starscream,
RID15 - Strongarm,
Cyberverse - Windblade,
WFC Trilogy - G1 Megatron,
And then we can have a few slots open for characters from the latest shows/movies. This list would give new readers an idea on how big the franchise truly is and how diverse the characters are. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Certainly if anyone's gonna represent CR/RiD'01, it's gonna be Sky-Byte, the breakout star of the show, and not Side Burn, the Autobot womanizer. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:26, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Funilly enough I meant to put him there lol. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 20:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Dreamwave, I'd pick War Within Grimlock. Certainly Shockwave should be part of 2005 IDW since he's responsible for the whole sha-bang.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] ([[User talk:MistaTee|talk]]) 18:40, 5 January 2022 (EST)

== Splitting Cloud characters ==

So now we have some sorta adequate translations, I'm being increasingly convinced that merging them just on the basis of AVP was a mistake and that the Cloud characters should be split out for simplicity and ease of explanation. Notably, the central conceit is far more similar to TransTech than G1—and more different to G1 than Cyberverse, for instance. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:44, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I was against it then and I'm against it now. They're nothing like the TransTech; they are practically nigh identical to the G1 guys, there's a war going on in their universe, and the "central conceit" of them being multiversal guardians is more akin to Alternity than it is to TransTech, who for the majority of their fiction were at most passive observers. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I am declining to weigh in personally until I finish first pass translations but please at least pretend to look over the translated material before repeating the same arguments. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:19, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::I have looked over it. Nothing is convincing me that it's all that separate from G1 stuff. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 12:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::"War going on" describes most of Transformer fiction. What makes Cyberverse "not G1", but Cloud G1, other than convenience for us editors? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:02, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::: As far as I can tell, there is no basic divergence, aside from Grimlock's origins, from the Cloud characters to the G1 counterparts. I could point to a fair few examples on the side of Cyberverse that rank higher than that (Grimlock's presenations, the origins of the Quintessons and Sharkticons, Skywarp, Acid Storm, etc etc.) [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:23, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::We can be here all day debating over character minutiae, but the point is that Cyberverse ultimately doesn't diverge that much from G1 in its general premise as opposed to Cloud. G1 is bloated enough as it is; it doesn't hurt to take out the one thing that doesn't really fit in and make it its own thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::: Well that just comes right back to my question: what actually makes Cloud World's core conceit any different from G1 beyond the fact that they have technology that allows them dimensional travel? Because if it is just that, I simply do not believe that is enough to justify a split for characters who are almost all made to look like and have the same personality as the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:51, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I agree for the sake of wiki presentation. *Cloud* is more like *TransTech* than it is like *Alternity*. *Cloud* characters got to travel to both the G1 and MD worlds as equally separate destinations. TakaraTomy used the *Generations War for Cybertron* moulds as the *United* series, which is G1 and not Aligned by our classification. *Cloud* recycling unused *Generations Fall of Cybertron* toys in a non-Aligned setting strikes me as more evidence that we can allow *Cloud* to live on its own rather than as another G1 setting. And *Cloud* was chosen by e-HOBBY over the competing proposal *Prime Shattered Glass* which would also have been on separate wiki pages despite employing purely redeco mould choiceis. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:08, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I'm not convinced by the idea that them saying "G1 World" is an indicator of separateness when there is also designations for "BW Spacetime" and "MF Spacetime." Brawn is depicted as practically identical in appearance to G1 Brawn before being upgraded. As for the Prime Shattered Glass choice, I think it's pretty obvious why that would be completely separate from this particular issue. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:25, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::The only reason Brawn is shown as the G1 body is if you take consideration that all Cloud members are drawn according to the latest toy or model available... he got no real toy before that, the only options were either G1 Sunbow, G1 toy or the tiny Universe 2.0 Legends. Now if you remove their appearance and focus on the story, Cloud is still more akin to Transtech than Alternity, Deadlock for example even got to visit the Legends World, a Aligned world (possibly the Adventure toyline) and the Ehobby spin-off dimension (now called Precursor World) -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 17:55, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::Yes, I am aware of how Cloud repurposings work. Nothing prevents one G1 universe from visiting another. And aside from that, Japan has had barely any non-JG1 cartoon related G1 fiction; of course Cloud World, which isn't directly JG1 related, would be indicated as different; that doesn't mean that it's not able to be categorized as G1. If it were an American storyline, where we have always had multiple G1 storylines, I feel that this would not nearly be as much of a point of contention. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I'm in favor of splitting Cloud from G1. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 19:32, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I haven't read any of the Cloud fiction myself, but I know that if our translation team collectively agrees on something based on the material available, then that's more than enough convincing for me to agree with them also. In other words, I agree with a split. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:52, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I'd vastly prefer if we could get someone like McFeely to weigh in on this. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:56, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::i'm in favour of the split. The cloud people have enough characteristics to distonguist them from theur jg1 counterpatts.--[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 20:14, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::Alright, seriously, what characteristics are there actually to distinguish them from G1? Because nobody has been able to give me a concrete example so far. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::::dinobot, heavy usage of aligned designs, hellwarp --[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 21:36, 28 December 2021 (EST)
Looks like Escargon is the only voice against the split thus far. Still, I suggest the discussion should remain open longer than usual, out of courtesy for people not checking the wiki as regularly given the holiday season. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:47, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:As the translations are still ongoing, I think the most we can suggest at this time is a note regarding its a classification as a Primax setting by AVP. As more information comes to light I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it was a decision made on shaky logic. Unlike the Alternity there doesn't seem to be any evidence of these guys being derived in-universe from G1 guys. And as fiction, it's about a bunch of super advanced parallel universe monitor guys who regularly travel to other universes. If it's literally just "the cast is mostly recolours of toys with G1 fiction" then maybe we need to start talking about listing the War for Cybertron games as G1 too. [[User:Star Spangled Sam|Star Spangled Sam]] ([[User talk:Star Spangled Sam|talk]]) 01:44, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::What exactly is super-advanced about them beyond SARA, who, as far as I can tell, is a gift from some being and not even their own creation? Because otherwise, they seem to be basic Transformers. Not a single person has been able to tell me that so far, and I'd be far more willing to listen if someone would just spell out what exactly makes them so distinct that means they can't be G1. It's not about in-universe stuff, because for all intents and purposes, the characters themselves are nigh-identical to the Generation 1 characters; you look at Cloud Megatron or Cloud Rodimus and it is obvious that, irregardless of whatever the fiction might say, they are being sold as new versions of the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 04:29, 29 December 2021 (EST)
:::By the same logic, then why not put the FOC and WFC games under the G1 banner since it heavly takes inspirations from it, same settings (war on cybertron, the resources are becoming low, escaping to another world), closest designs to G1.. hell they were more marketed towards G1 than the Movies and Prime in mind (let's face it.. that's what Hasbro always does).. but the further Hasbro tied them to Aligned and they became their own thing.. Cloud is about that, maybe marketed as G1 at first but they became their own thing at the end -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 13:20, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::::The WFC games are their own case that, despite what you say, were always clearly a part of Hasbro's ideas for the Aligned continuity, which is something that I'm not going to bother going into here. Nothing about Cloud registers to me as being somehow so separate that it requires us splitting off things into their own pages. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:24, 29 December 2021 (EST)
Bumping for more opinions. If there's no overall opposition to it by Friday or so, I'll start splitting. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:07, 4 January 2022 (EST)
:The Cloud fiction prominently features the Cloud characters interacting with their own G1 counterparts. If nothing else, it should be split on same basis as [[Galvatron II]]. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:50, 4 January 2022 (EST)
::We've seen that with other fiction. I'm not sure why it would justify them having their whole separate pages (Galvatron II is a unique case). If that's what it takes though to not go through some inane total split, though, then fine, whatever. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:If there is to be movement on this in the immediate future I suppose I should go ahead and weigh in. As the one doing the translation I broadly agree with Riptide. While I am unmoved by philosophical discussions on what constitutes "G1-ness" or "Transtech-ness," I believe it is important to return to our guiding principle of the end user experience. Given the already convoluted nature of the material as well as the cast's consistent interaction with both various Generation 1 continuities in general and their own incarnations in specific, I believe it will be in the best interests of intelligibility for the reader to split out Cloud from Generation 1. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:25, 5 January 2022 (EST)

We are not going to pretend that these are completely separate from the Generation 1 characters. Put up a suite or a "see [X] article for more information" because it is completely ridiculous to pretend that Cloud is it's own little continuity. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:38, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I disagree. Cloud should be split off entirely. So let's have an official vote and resolve this. I say '''Split'''. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:28, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::The articles have already been split. You'll forgive me if I don't show confidence in the decision from people who blew me off when I pointed out their original reason for splitting was incorrect (that supposedly the Almanac had come out before Cloud was truly explained, but in fact it had come after almost all of it had been published). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:35, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::This discussion has been open for twelve days. An unofficial tally shows at least 7-to-1 in favor of splitting. No one else has openly agreed with your position. Given that, and that Saix announced days in advance he would start splitting if there was no further discussion, it wasn't unreasonable for him to begin. But maybe there's a different split of opinions on the Discord or wherever, so it's certainly appropriate to ask for an official vote. Beyond that...the decision is just not up to you alone. The point of democracy is for all voices to be heard, not to leave every voice feeling satisfied with the outcome. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:08, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::I have no idea what's going on in the Discord server; I'm barred from it. I certainly hope there's not more discussion going on over there, because I was told that there would be a push to have these sorts of big discussions to be on the wiki. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:42, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::With all due respect: You need to stop putting so much emphasis on the in-universe designation, which AVP itself pointed out was ultimately arbitrary. I understand that AVP and the Almanacs are important to you, but Jim is not infallible, and while I'm sure he had good reasons for calling it "Primax" that's ultimately just ''his opinion''. Cloud being "its own thing" isn't some essential property; it's a matter of how to organise the wiki in order to make the fiction clear. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I also vote '''Split''' if only because of how better translations now has pointed out various past errors/assumptions/presumptions that needed correcting, and thus updating is needed so as to make things easier to categorize and organize here. Any wiki really worth their salt and wanting to do proper service to their respective franchises' fandoms would do the same. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 14:43, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::I ''still'' haven't got an answer for what makes Cloud so different that makes it ''need'' to be split. If there were a crossover between say, Marvel and Sunbow, nobody in their right mind we should completely separate, say, Huffer from Huffer. I'm willing to admit that I might just be missing something, but nothing in the stories themselves, as far as I can see, suggests it, beyond the aforementioned Cloud World classification, which for me is not enough of a justification. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:33, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::Neither Marvel nor Sunbow consists primarily of crossovers with another G1 continuity. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:20, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::If that's the main avenue of justification then frankly I don't think I'm ever going to agree with that line of reasoning, but I can clearly see I'm outvoted on this. I wish there would have been more people asked before the split was done, though, because I can see that this could very easily end up being another whole "retitling things to FSRLF" situation. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:00, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::We functionally split out Marvel and Sunbow versions for a lot of characters anyway. We're at the point where we draw lines based on how easy/hard it is for the information to be conveyed, not whether it's G1 enough or not. We think Cloud, as its own fullblown storyline/premise, falls on the side of "it's easier to read and parse it if they get their own shebang" instead of burying them in overlong G1 articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:11, 8 January 2022 (EST)

I'm not gonna argue further on this because I recognize it's a losing battle, but I think that the line of thought of "this one bit of media shouldn't be kept in an article because it won't get out there otherwise" sets a bad precedent that could easily be misused in the future. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:39, 8 January 2022 (EST)

Should the Cloud toys also be removed from the G1 character's pages? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 09:21, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:Yeah no, It vould be too convoluted, example look at the redirections [[Transformers_Cloud#Toys|there]]... where should each toy be redirected?? + the fiction regarding said toys has their own page now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 10:58, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::...What on earth are you talking about? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:16, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::Srry I misread his question.. I thought he meant "added" not "removed" from the G1 pages...
:Not entirely certain what you're asking, but the eight toys in the Cloud toyline (plus Deadlock) have already been moved to the Cloud pages in conjunction with the fiction, as they solely represent Cloud characters. The remaining Cloud characters repurpose existing toys. The writeups for those toys remain on the original pages with duplicates on the repurpose pages, as is standard practice. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:54, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::I mean, for example, [[Blaster_(G1)/toys#Generations|G1 Blaster's toy page]] has FOC Blaster on it, due to FOC Blaster being repurposed as Cloud Blaster. Should that repurposing be removed from G1 Blaster's page, since Cloud Blaster isn't considered to be G1 Blaster anymore? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:34, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::I believe yeah, the splitting between G1 and Cloud was recent (done last month) so there's still leftover traces on the wiki, if you can take your time to remove them why not -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 16:44, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::::Ok, good. I just wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 17:13, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::::Oh! Yes those should go, good eye! -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 10:52, 18 February 2022 (EST)

==Split Movie Character Toy lists?==
Just as what happened with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Megatron (G1)/toys]], I suggest we split certain Movie toy pages such as [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys]] as both pages have become excessively bloated. I suggest we separate them by having the original Bay film toylines (07, ROFT, DOTM, AOE, TLK, and any pre SS sub lines) have their own page and starting a new one that Contains SS, BB, and the upcoming ROTB toylines, alongside any future movie toylines until the new page itself becomes heavily bloated [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Sorry for being this late but given that ROTB toys are apparently coming this spring, I suggest you split like one part contains all 5 movies while the other starts with SS and BB until now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 15:26, 22 January 2022 (EST)

== Multi-part comic stories ==

For old Marvel UK multi-part stories like [[Target: 2006]] or [[Time Wars]], we put the whole thing under a single article, but for modern-day ones like each storyline in [[Transformers (2019 comic)]] we have a separate article for each issue. Is there a good reason for the discrepancy, or are the old ones just an artefact of a time in the wiki's history that didn't follow our current standards? --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 09:36, 22 January 2022 (EST)
:The thing with that is that it's a result of how the UK comic was written; there'd be about 8 or so pages per issue, meaning that we'd have a lot of little articles that are easier just grouped together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:16, 22 January 2022 (EST)
::Makes sense, although that's essentially what we have for [[The Transformers: Autocracy]] et al., which are also 8 pages per issue. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 15:38, 23 January 2022 (EST)
:::The difference with Autocracy lies mostly in that pretty much all of those issues have a beginning and end, and also have different titles. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:47, 23 January 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I always thought our headings on the Marvel UK story pages ''were'' the issue titles. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 01:21, 24 January 2022 (EST)

== Composite characters and page transclusion ==

This is something I've had the idea about for a while, but I've finally had a look at how the markup for it works and have come up with a proposal. The pages for [[Greatshot]] and [[Sixshot (G1)]] contain an entirely duplicated section set around the ''Victory'' cartoon owing to a retcon that occurred in the much later Legends manga. This is not an ideal solution because, among other reasons, any edits to Greatshot's cartoon section necessitates making the same edit to Sixshot's section.

Over in my sandbox, I've whipped up the page [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test]], containing only the events that happened to both Greatshot and the retconned Sixshot. By inserting <nowiki>{{:User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test}}</nowiki> into the relevant parts of Greatshot and Sixshot's pages (also sandboxed [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot|here]] and [[User:TheLastGherkin/Sixshot|here]]), the same information is automatically transcluded. And clicking "Edit" on, for example, the Legends manga section on Sixshot's page automatically redirects the user to editing that portion of Greatshot-test, thus updating all three pages at once.

If we go forward with this, I can see it being used for other characters in similar situations, like BWU [[Wolfang (Maximal)#Beast Wars: Uprising|Wolfang]], or Unite Warriors [[Roller (IDW)#Unite Warriors|Roller]], or putting the lion's share (pun intended) of [[Victory Leo]]'s fictional appearances back onto Victory Leo's page. With refinements, like say a <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> explanation for what each subpage is for the layperson ("This page covers the events of the Japanese Generation 1 continuity, where Greatshot and Sixshot are the same individual...") and maybe a [[:Category:Transcluded pages]], I could see this really working, and it could probably be bent into shape for repurposed toys as well. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 12:48, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:If we cannot avoid this sort of duplicated information entirely, this does seem like a pretty ideal solve to mitigate the constant peril of copy editing flubs maintaining multiple copies of one write-up entails. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:56, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Is there any way to get rid of the "This section is transcluded from another page. To edit it, please edit the transcluded page." notice? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:::There is! I just put that there manually while experimenting and also to make clear where the transcluded section is. In practice, since clicking "Edit" on a transcluded section takes you to the source page, a notice like that can be relegated to a commented-out note for editors who click to Edit the entire page (or a larger section). [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 16:16, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I thought it was automatic software stuff. Whoops, never mind. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:22, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Also, this works for fiction, but I see it running into issues when it comes to toys. (Thinking of Sixshot/Greatshot, Sixshot always gets toys first with Greatshot as the retool later in the same line.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:14, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:I've made some tweaks to my sandboxes, including standardising the transcluded page. Are there any objections before I start implementing this (in fiction sections)? [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 07:10, 12 February 2022 (EST)
::I sense that there could be an issue in the future where, for whatever reason, these sorts of characters diverge back into separate ones, whether it be through alternate continuities or whatever. Also, in the case of Greatshot, I feel like at the very beginning of his entry, there has to be something different to set up the Sixshot retcon, and just having the same opening text doesn't do that. 08:57, 12 February 2022 (EST)
:::His toy bio that mentions Sixshot as a separate person could go there. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:21, 16 February 2022 (EST)
:This could also be applied to Primus and Vector Sigma for their 3H comics sections since they are one and the same in that continuity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 26 February 2022 (EST)

== What makes a franchise? Or, does "Precursor World" exist? ==

So, browsing around the wiki, as one does, and came across this: [[Precursor World continuity|Precursor World (franchise)]]

Now, I'm not as well-versed in the Legends + Selects comics, so maybe this is incorrect, but to the best of my understanding, the branding "Precursor World" doesn't exist — this story was told across Generations Selects and Legends, and no toy or story was ever released branded as "Precursor World". It doesn't seem like the name even existed until pretty recently.

This...isn't a franchise, right? It's a long-running story told across various medium, but it's not a franchise, and calling it such implies something that isn't true.

Particularly, the idea that there is a "toyline" seems a bit of a stretch. There are only three listed "official" toys, but none of them were released under the "Precursor World" branding (which near as I can tell does not exist) and the list of "repurposings" seems almost entirely just "this toy/characters showed up in this story" which doesn't seem like anything's been repurposed to me. The IDW comics used a bunch of existing/prior toys, but that doesn't create a toyline of that comic series.

Am I off base here? --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:16, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:Okay there's a lot to unpack here but to begin with every single one of those toys is being repurposed as a separate object/character in a separate setting a la, for example, [[Green Tender Convoy]] and the [[Matrix Buster|Red Matrix]]. Most of the unnamed crowdfillers are minimized to footnotes on existing articles to avoid generating a bazillion stubs. The closest analogue I can give you is the [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|toyline]] for the original ''Timelines'' iteration of Shattered Glass. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:35, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I'll grant that those indeed seem to be repurposings, but the vast majority of toys on this list merely link to the toy entry for the toy on the regular character's page. I don't think having a list of members of these groups is bad (it's good!) but I don't think this is a toyline. Again, crucially, Shattered Glass has a brand, with the official toys released under that brand, whereas precursor world does not. IDW repurposed WfC/FoC/aligned toys as G1 characters, but this didn't create a virtual toyline associated with that comic. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:46, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:::Arguably Shattered Glass toys weren't really released under their own brand either until the recent Hasbro Pulse stuff, until then the figures were all just released under the ''Timelines'' banner or whatever else Fun Pub used at the time - the idea of a singular "Shattered Glass toyline" was just as much of a constructed idea until like a year ago. I can't say "franchise" and "toyline" ''aren't'' slightly more non-literal labels than usual in this context, but I do think there's value in having the info collated like this, and I can't think of ''better'' labels that aren't something stupid like "(meta franchise)". [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:57, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::::To be honest, I'm inclined to agree re: Shattered Glass, and would not be opposed to restructuring the toyline page to delineate between the "Shatted Glass Collection" and "Shattered Glass toys released via Timelines" or something. Shattered Glass does, however, have a leg up on Precursor World given that every official SG toy was branded as "Shattered Glass" in some way, though perhaps not as a "franchise". The box set is called Shattered Glass, and every official toy was called "Shattered Glass". There's some nuance there, of course, as arguably those are part of the character's names ala "Prime Universe Bulkhead" is still a Legacy toy, not a Prime toy, but I'd be happy to have a debate around the best way to frame Shattered Glass stuff given those discrepancies. Allll that said, Shattered Glass is today a franchise, but there have been zero anythings released with Precursor World branding or labeling. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 13:06, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I don't think the page should be removed or even severely modified, but I do think the terminology is flawed. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 16:02, 3 March 2022 (EST)
Precursor World is definitely not a "franchise" and should not have that label. The model to look at here is the [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] article, which gives an overview of the thing, lists it's stories and toys, but does not use the "franchise" label, and doesn't ''need'' to use it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 15:07, 3 March 2022 (EST)

Yeah, no, this is not a "franchise", and the page should not be labeled as such. It is a ''setting''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:I like the solution that AzimuthAcolyte gave on Discord: move "Precursor World (franchise)" to "Precursor World continuity" (with all uses of the word "franchise" changed to "continuity") and "Precursor World (toyline)" to "List of Precursor World toys". Simple and elegant. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:55, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Seconded.[[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:::That seems reasonable to me. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::::I'm for that. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::That's fair. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:59, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Works for me, somewhat obviously! If there are no major objections over the next day or two I'll get those moved over. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:48, 4 March 2022 (EST)
::Ohhh, That works -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 18:19, 4 March 2022 (EST)
Alrighty as it's been a day or so with no objections I am proceeding with the moves away from (franchise) and (toyline). --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:06, 5 March 2022 (EST)

== Episode Order ==
It's come to my attention that all cartoons have been listed in production order '''except''' Beast Wars, RID01, RB, and RBA. While I understand production order is not available for the latter two I suggest we change the first two for consistency's sake - Unless I'm wrong and they are ''not'' all in production order. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:48, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:We're not touching Beast Wars. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
::Beast Wars and RiD'01 not being in production order are accepted exceptions to the norm. We leave them as they are for reasons specific to each. But as for RB and RBA, we do have an idea of the production orders for each, but we instead use a weird mixture of production order and airing order that is consistent with no other series we cover. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 13:53, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:OK quick correction to myself, turns out that it's all supposed to be chronological order; That just happens to be production order for everything but those four. Sorry! [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 14:09, 16 March 2022 (EDT)

==Help with statues / figurines==
I wrote up many of the [[Super7#Transformers ULTIMATES!|ULTIMATES!]] entries, simply because no one else had. I don't actually care about that sort of merch and it ended up being me paraphrasing from press releases and copying their pics. Just today I learned there are 3 waves of TF [[Minimates]] that have no coverage here at all. It definitely seems like a lot of high-end statues are falling through the cracks as well. Is there someone who is willing to make that stuff more of a project? If not, could we perhaps put out a call for submissions on our Twitter feed? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:47, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I fear this is just... going to continue to be an Issue. The wiki is a labor of love, and the brand is at a point where there's a lot of stuff out there... well, that a lot of people probably aren't gonna love. Hasbro's moichandized the everloving HELL out of TF over the years, with more and more niche "G1" stuff that seemingly would never appeal to people for whom G1 is the big center of their fandom. I mean I just found some Micro Figures merch at a Big Lots, I've never seen these before, and I don't know offhand if they're on the wiki. They're kind of a nothing. It's hard to keep up. Same for stuff like phone games.<br>
:I don't know if there's an actual solution. ''Someone'' certainly needs to step up, but I kinda got my plate overflowing with my own pet (ha ha) niche chunk of TF history to exhaustively document, never mind dealing with stuff I am almost aggressively disinterested in. (Seriously what little Minimates experience I have left me with a worse impression of them than I already had from their hideous aesthetic alone.) Asking Twitter for people more well-versed in this stuff might could help for phone games, but... IS there anyone into Minimates as a whole Brand and not just in a "I get the licenses I like" sense to fill in gaps? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:20, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::Once I had composed the thought "Hey, it's bad that there are a lot of Minimates out with us not covering them at all," it was too late, and I just had to burn 40 minutes on some cut-and-paste writups for the entire series. That's one "solution," I guess, but even ''my'' obsessive-compulsiveness can only go so far. Editing this site really should not feel like a job... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:18, 22 March 2022 (EDT)

==Implementing galleries==
I propose making galleries on character pages a wiki standard. The current mainpic + show screenshots format doesn't cover images like character models (Unless used as a mainpic), concept art, appearances in posters or toy murals, comic book covers, etc.
Other wikis have successfully implemented galleries, I think the Hololive Wiki galleries in particular work well as an example https://hololive.wiki/wiki/Tokino_Sora#Media.
This gallery header covers character models and has suites for concept art and even character uses in collaborative merch.[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:27, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Seconded. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:30, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I would say some version of this concept for a section has merit, if nothing else as a solve for major characters with several prominent character models, perhaps as a fairly unobtrusive method of documenting alt modes, etc etc. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:38, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::I'm for this. As a good example, the BotBots characters all look to have been radically redesigned for the show. By default the current standard is to keep the original stock art look will appear as the mainpic each page. Having a gallery option would be a good way to show both versions. [[User:ParadoxFactor|ParadoxFactor]] ([[User talk:ParadoxFactor|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Oppose. There is no reason for these to take up space on the character pages. Would not oppose separate "gallery" pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:57, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::If we are open to workshopping implementation I do agree a separate "gallery page" in the style we already use for more conceptual articles here and there would probably be cleaner. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 14:06, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I love the gallery idea. There's a question of how much to include, and the exact implementation details of how to portion out overflow if there's too many images. It's a shame there isn't some way to generate them automatically just by tagging images with the characters they depict. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::A separate page seems like it would be overkill for someone like [[Flamewar (G1)|Flamewar]], who would only take a few images to cover appearances not already covered by fiction section images. I assume if a small gallery was to be used on a character's page, it would be near the bottom at any rate? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:22, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Yes, at the bottom would be ideal, no different from any of the galleries on our artist pages. IMO, separate gallery pages should only be used in instances where the number of images can't be comfortably fit onto one or two lines. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:33, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::I agree with Cyberlink. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:29, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Fair; Using gallery sections for those with few images and gallery pages for those with many images might make sense. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 15:46, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::See [[Megatron (G1)/gallery|G1 Megatron]] and [[Megatron (BW)/gallery|BW Megatron]] for examples of characters with enough images to justify separate gallery pages. [[Rhinox (BW)/gallery|BW Rhinox]], as it is now, is probably right on the line between "split it off" and "stick it at the bottom of the page". -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
I think choosing between a header at the bottom or a suite depending on image amount is a good solution instead of sticking to just one method.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:29, 22 March 2022 (EDT)
:Yeah, I think that would be good, as has been pointed out earlier. I do have to ask - because sometimes the artistic difference between characters in comics is slight with details only a little different in shape or kibble - would those fall under gallery stuff? Because they're effectively different per artist interpretation. I would be inclined to say yes, because effectively a different artist's rendition is shown usually of the same character without having reformatted or taken up armor or so forth. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 10:56AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I am very much on board with this idea. Having a gallery section or page depending on the character would be great, especially for characters like Flamewar who have a extremely prominent new design that we can't use as a main pic and for characters who have tons of designs, especially in the case of IDW where some characters change bodies every Tuesday. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:35 AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I think artistic liberty vs. new design would have to be on a case by case basis. Burcham's art of the BW cast wouldn't count for gallery purposes, in my opinion. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:08, 27 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I think it would be cool to have art of the same designs in different artstyles, but I agree it should probably be on case by case basis. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 6:17 PM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I currently have a sandbox to test galleries using Tigatron https://tfwiki.net/wiki/User:MrRald/sandbox/Tigatron#Gallery. I'd appreciate any feedback on things to add or change! [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 23:44, 1 April 2022 (EDT)
::: I like what you have so far, I think we should maybe add a few more versions of Tigatron, like his different comic appearances and such. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]])

: Now that we're actually going ahead with this... I have to ask, what are the galleries actually ''for''? When we were discussing this I was under the impression that they were going to be for "behind-the-scenes" images that wouldn't otherwise have a place on the wiki, like out-of-universe character models, character concept art, or full-body renders from stuff like guidebooks. Right now, a lot of the galleries just feel redundant, given that they're just a bunch of cartoon and comic screengrabs taken from the relevant section and removed of all context... and a lot of them, like [[Blaster (G1)/gallery]] are just completely empty. The fact that every character ''can'' have a gallery does not mean that all of them ''should'', especially if most of them are just going to be redundant or mostly empty. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:57, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
::Agreed, I feel like this is bloating the wiki and toeing over the line of our vague remit. Despite having a LOT of images, we're not an image repository. Also, a lot of these could probably be done as a single subsection of the characters' mainpage under below "Notes" of whatever rather than as separate mostly-blank-space sub-pages full of sub-headers with like two images total in them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 06:11, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I didn't think they'd be separate pages. What I was expecting was whichever of the cartoon character model, Dreamwave profile art or package art weren't being used for the mainpic, plus behind-the-scenes stuff, plus maybe extra bits from artbooks, covers, or sources like that. Stuff that can't just be slotted into a fiction writeup—and I don't mean "comic crops we don't have room for because equivalent/better panels are already in the fiction section". —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:35, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
My intentions for the gallery pages were for users to actually do the work in uploading character models, renders, et al., not dumping whatever cartoon screencaps we already have in fiction sections. And separate pages would be on a case by case basis. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:46, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
I don't see the point, honestly. It seems like pretty much any significant body a significant enough character has will appear on the wiki at some point in a comic panel or a toy info image or a screenshot or something, somewhere. I'm not sure this is a problem that needs solving. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] ([[User talk:Hooper X|talk]]) 20:36, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

===G1 model images===
To branch off of this topic, how would we feel about using [https://www.allspark.com/forums/threads/the-most-accurately-coloured-g1-animation-models-online.301/ DM's coloured models] for the G1 cartoon model galleries? The last time I brought this topic up (on Discord), some people were against the idea, due to them being fan-colour works and not official, but a few newer developments have been made since I last brought it up.

To clarify, for those unaware of DM's works:

* All of the line art is original and unedited (unlike several of the models in ''The Ark'' books, which had been tweaked, altered and traced by Bill Forster to make them presentable for publishing).
* The models are the final ones used throughout the majority of the cartoon (in Toei-animated episodes at least). Note: several of the models in ''The Ark'' books we have also come to discover were unfinalized ones, due to the internet and more stuff being made public since what was originally found around 2007—not to discredit Jim and Bill's hard work in putting those books together, it's just some of what we knew then isn't entirely correct now.
* And finally, the colours (which was the big thing some people were against). Unlike the handful of fan-coloured models that were originally uploaded to the wiki in the past, which eye dropped colors straight from poor quality episode masters, DM's colours are based directly on Toei and Marvel Productions' model colour guides, colour codes, charts, colour chips found by a member of the ''Dragon Ball'' fandom (who has scanned and digitized said colour chips) and other original production materials, meaning that the colours DM has used are all coming from the ''original'' original source.

An alternative Mr. Rald had brought up on Discord is that we could possibly look at using the uncoloured model line art instead, if people feel strongly against using fan-coloured works, but I think in order to present the G1 character models fully as references, you kinda need the colours included, especially given how poor the cartoon production was, what with all the animation errors (even in Toei episodes) etc, making it hard to gather decent references for the characters, which is mostly what these galleries are for.

Also, for the record, DM has given us permission to use his colourings on the wiki.

Let me know you thoughts. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:39, 6 April 2022 (EDT)

: I personally think that we should use DM's coloured models, they are as official as coloured models are going to get, and it's not like DM just randomly picked and chose want colours to use as FOCS said. We could just have the model and the colour guide, but at that point, just have the model sheet coloured. I would however be in favour of the uncoloured models with colour guides and the sheets with the fully coloured models to cover all our bases. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:16 AM, 6 April 2022 (PDT)

== Making a page for the Unreal Engine? ==

War for Cybertron, Dark of the Moon (PS3/X360), Fall of Cybertron, and Rise of the Dark Spark all run on Unreal Engine, specifically Unreal Engine 3. Why isn't there a page for it. It could have good info on those wanting to mod those games.

Unrelated, but there's a server revival project being worked on for those games. Right now it's only on PC, and progress is slow, but should we include info for it in the pages for those games? It's not official btw, there's a Discord server for it and a few YouTube vids about it.[[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]]) 17:29, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not sure what information we could put on an Unreal Engine page that would be useful to modders. An Unreal Engine page would be general info on the engine and a list of games which use it. Diving into technical details isn't really something we do. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:52, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I think linking to {{W|Unreal Engine|Wikipedia}} should be sufficient. That's what I did when I ''unfortunately'' had to document the Funko NFTs. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:11, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I don't see what value there would be to this. Unreal warrants, at ''most'', a mention on the relevant game pages. We don't have pages for every program used to make every piece of TF media/product. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:33, 24 March 2022 (EDT)

== Category for characters with no established gender ==

So I just had this idea and decided to share it here because why not? We have categories for female characters and variable gender characters but not for characters with undetermined genders. Many BotBots for example don't have genders and I think this category could be a useful way of grouping them together. And who knows, maybe someday it could even help official creators specifically looking for genderless characters to establish a gender to them. Does anyone agree to implement this category? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:06, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:This concept has been discussed before in the past, and generally the feeling has been that this would be a bit too much like the wiki actively trying to shape canon. Don't get me wrong, creators taking advantage of characters with no official pronouns is neat and I'm all for it, but IMO the wiki shouldn't directly serve up them. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 19:26, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
::Interestingly, I can't seem to find a prior community portal discussion about this matter, though I know it has come up on the Discord server more than once, to the conclusion Jalaguy mentioned. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:35, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:::Just to clarify, I thought of "official creators using it" as a quick example in favor of the category, but now I can totally see how it sounded like trying to influence canon too much. Regardless, I'd still be down for having the category if we agreed on it being useful for any other reason. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:51, 3 April 2022 (EDT)

== Category for trans characters ==

We had a productive conversation about the no established gender thing on the wiki discord and it made me realize that there should be a transgender category for the five established trans characters that there are so far, Arcee (who has established trans characterization on two different pages), Howlback, Arcadis, Anode, and Lug. Jalaguy mentioned that this has been discussed and people thought it was a good idea but it hasn't happened, so I just thought I'd ask for go-ahead on this. I figured that transgender rather than just trans could be a good word to use for this, due to them all being people who have gender. The term trans is merely more broad and could cover different kinds of transness than that or aesthetic stuff that is similar to gender, but we have no confirmation of being there yet in canon. Thus I think transgender would be the most accurate and desirable term here, and the umbrella trans can always be tacked on later if we need to. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 5:40PM 3 April 2022 (PDT) (edited 5:48PM PDT for clarity)
:Seconded. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 5:53 PM, 3 April 2022 (PDT)
::Since there are no objections, I'll go ahead. :3 -- [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 4:19AM, 11 April 2022 (PDT)

==Streamlining disambig headers (revist)==
So I remember this conversation from last year about streamlining the disambiguation headers. I checked back on the talk page discussion (link to said discussion archive here https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive69#Streamlining_disambig_headers) to see what happened and even though there was a lot of people who liked the idea with some who did not, it did not seem like it went anywhere. I thought I'd see if anyone else would like to revisit this idea as I feel like this would streamline things more, especially for Movie and Aligned and maybe a bit of UT especially for the guys who show up in all 3 shows or those don't have other bots who are completely different sharing the same name within the trilogy. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 9:01 PM, 12 April 2022 (PDT)

== Disambig tags and suites for Masterforce paired pages ==

We need to balance out our page titles for ''Masterforce'' human + transtector character pairs. Right now we have among extant pages and tentative redlinks:

Bullhorn (G1), Cab (human), Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (human), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (robot), [something], Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (robot)

I propose either we do human gets no species tag with the robot getting a species tag as the splinter page:

Bullhorn (G1) | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

or the human does get a species tag to equally balance with the robot:

Bullhorn (G1)/human | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

This would eliminate the need to have any longer-within-parentheses tag like "Minerva (G1 robot)" which would be affected by future continuities which may not yet have happened. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:55, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
:I would prefer either the human gets the "default" continuity tag with no further disambiguation or (human)/(robot) (with needed variations for disambiguation). The slash system is ugly to me. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:59, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::I'm of the opinion that the slash option for both feels the most fair. While the human versions were the first and thus feel the most deserving of the "default" tag, the robot versions are likely to become more commonplace and relevant as newer fiction dips its toes into using more Japanese characters. On a similar note, it was decided not to give the "BW" tag to either BW Silverbolt out of fairness, so while a similar "human/robot" concept could be implemented, there is the problem with Minerva having an Animated counterpart who is also a robot, Cancer having an Animated counterpart who is also a human, there being a Kre-O Bullhorn who is also a robot, a G.I. Joe Lightfoot who is also a human, and an IDW Wilder who is also a human. "Minerva (Headmaster)" also doesn't work for the G1 robot since the human was a Headmaster too. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:29, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::The slash system may not be entirely visually pleasant, but I consider having "Minerva (G1 robot)" in parentheses worse. In my proposal, all transtector characters would be unified symmetrically as "(robot)". [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:47, 24 April 2022 (EDT)

Here are three proposals to unify the namespaces:

Possibility 1: humans get nothing and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1), Cab, Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai, Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (G1), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 2: both humans and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1)/human, Cab/human, Cancer (G1)/human, Clouder/human, Ginrai/human, Shūta Gō/human, Lightfoot (G1)/human, Minerva (G1)/human, Ranger/human, Road King/human, Wilder (G1)/human

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 3: both humans and robots get parentheses

Bullhorn (G1 human), Cab (human), Cancer (G1 human), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1 human), Minerva (G1 human), Ranger (human), Road King (human), Wilder (G1 human)

Bullhorn (G1 robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (G1 robot), Doubleclouder, Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1 robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (G1 robot)

Thoughts? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:12, 12 June 2022 (EDT)
:Isn't Option 1 one basically just a slightly different version of what we're already using and what you're proposing to change in the first place? Anyway, like I said above, Option 2 is the most fair between the human and robot depictions (as Option 1 feels like we're saying "The human versions are the more important versions" when it's the robot versions that are more likely to get any representation in future comic appearances), and it reduces the amount of multiple-word parentheses tags that we usually dislike using and try to avoid as best we can (which is the exact opposite of what Option 3 is proposing). Though, drop the "/human" from Clouder and Shūta Gō since their names already differ from "Doubleclouder" and "Goshooter". No need to complicate those two. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 08:45, 12 June 2022 (EDT)

==Transformers: Armada (Trading Card Collection)==
I recently discovered that Fleer published a Trading Card collection in 2003 for Transformers Armada.
I've documented everything I could find about it - including an Energon (preview) Scorponok card I got from a local retro game store.
[[Iacon0/Sandbox]]
Is it alright if I roll this out? [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 12:52, 1 May 2022 (EDT)

== WFC/FOC Reenergized Server Project info? ==

Info: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO5yzrWE9yVT56Rgxl9oqntVysxWr2k7e

Basically, it brings back the multiplayer servers for the Cybertron games, PC and PS3. Should this be talked about in the pages for those games? (ROTDS and ROTF aren't online at the moment, and 360 versions won't have support) [[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]])}
:It's not official, so no, it shouldn't. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:54, 27 June 2022 (EDT)

== Handling of "former GoBots" and "former Diaclone" characters on the wiki ==

So recently we've been seeing multiple characters that had previously been portrayed as dimension-hoppers from non-Transformers realities, but using Transformers designs — [[Bug Bite (GoBots)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]] and [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]] — appearing as "normal" Transformers ([[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]]). There's some heavy dispute over whether we should put them on the same page or split them out (e.g. "since the GoBots Bug Bite isn't ''originally'' from a G1 universe, he shouldn't go on the G1 Bug Bite page), so I thought we should probably have a centralised place to put together a comprehensive set of standards.

My take, personally, is that GoBots and Diaclone are *not* continuity families, they're their own properties that happen to cross over with Transformers, and so shouldn't be split on that basis. I feel that Burn Out and Lift-Ticket, regardless of them being portrayed as Diaclone mecha in their initial appearance, are the same basic concept as the likes of Road Rage and Tigertrack — "Transformers versions" of existing Diaclone toys and decoes. It helps that [[Spin-Out (G1)]] inherently blurs the lines, having first appeared as a "normal" Transformer ''before'' he was portrayed as a former Diaclone mech.

For the GoBots characters, I'd frankly be tempted to go even more radical and just merge ''all'' of them — put all the [[Cy-Kill (disambiguation)|Cy-Kill]] cameos on one page, like we do for other external property characters. Even in the edge cases like [[Fracture (Movie)|Fracture]], there's the precedent of her actually being intended as just ''being'' the GoBot. It feels a lot simpler to me than the headache of having Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, and Bug Bite, the ''other'' white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, having separate pages on a technicality. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:57, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Hard disagree on GoBots. By virtue of covering the Scioli comic in full, we have a GoBots continuity family to put them in. I say keep the ones who are explicitly GoBots at (GoBots), and put the ones who are Transformers (or ambiguous) at their respective continuity families. Basically, what we're doing for Bug Bite, do for all of them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:23, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:I don't agree on movie-Fracture in specific and the mass-merge of ''all'' GoBots-based characters in general. Fracture's a movie-universe character who premiered in a movie-based toyline and appeared in movie-timeline fiction. "The toy was originally conceived as" holds very little water there in light of all the rest of that. I'm not wild about merging characters from different continuity families (aka "major franchise umbrellas", the point of that divide was always less "fiction-detail based" and more "real-world Hasbro/Takara starting over based" as an organizational tool), as that leans heavily towards the Wikipedia style "just lump 'em all together" manner that... doesn't really work for our scope. There's SG Bug Bite and Crasher too, I don't think they should go under a giant singular page for the character concept.
: But ''in general'' I agree with keeping stuff like Lift-Ticket and Burn Out together because the distinction is really too nitpicky to be useful. If we get an EarthSpark Lift-Ticket who is a red Hoist-like bot, then they can go on a separate page because "new major franchise umbrella" gives a decent degree of separation. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:25, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: Oh, well, the SG GoBots are an obvious exception. If it's a "mirror universe" I feel like it should never share a page because the point is that it's the opposite.
:: That said, there are other nuances I admit I skimmed over — stuff like Wings Universe Cop-Tur, who's based on the original but is a secret genius and a good guy, I'm not sure he should be merged in. At the same time, though, splitting the Bug Bites feels disingenuous, and I'm not sure whether there's a good middle ground between "split 'em all" and "merge 'em all". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:44, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I also agree there isn't really a good middle ground. But here's the thing: If GoBots wasn't a factor and it was just G1 and Cyberverse, we wouldn't be having this conversation. At the end of the day, they're from another IP, but they're also genuine Transformers characters, and thus they should remain split like other Transformers characters. And that includes treating the genuine GoBot incarnations as separate entities. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:51, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I am, honestly, not sold either way on splitting/merging re: the "very distinctly the Tonka GoBots who originated from the Tonka GoBots franchise". I feel that there are '''''definitely''''' some bots that should not be merged with the Tonkas, by virtue of being from different continuity-families/hub-franchises (bots from the live action movies and Cyberverse, for example, should really stay separate). I'm less concerned about "in-fiction origin" because that's a clusterfuck all its own since 1984 best just left alone and we already disregard that for like Nebulans and stuff anyway, though I'd also argue that like, it should be taken into consideration the diff between an homage and an iteration (I'd argue ''Timelines'' Cop-Tur is the former and probably shouldn't be merged). But even just looking at them from the real-world staggered integration of the franchises, GoBots ARE a weird edge case (whaaat, something Scioli was involved in got weird? ''nnnoooOOOOOooooo'') and it kinda feels off to not treat them as a separate thing given their ultimate origins. But like, they are, functionally, "G1" characters as far as "how they were brought to TF" goes in the real world, and I'm not convinced that splitting out WFC Bug Bite is really a good idea or terribly helpful. So like, I dunno. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:06, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::::And then there's the ''very'' unique case of GoBots Stretch having been given a retroactive backstory of being born in the world of Transformers Animated before he crossed dimensions and became a GoBot. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:23, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::::If anything, Stretch is a Transformer pretending to be a GoBot.
:::::The criteria that keep this wiki running and readable have always had some smudgy bits, and if you stare too long at any of them pretty soon all one sees is the smudge, not the dividing line or even the story itself. Cyberverse and Prime are each ''basically'' a retelling of G1, and if they didn't have a few features we've accepted as clear dividers from "real" G1, they could have gone within G1 just as much as the IDW comics have. The divisions are necessary to keep information from being a useless, unstructured, unnavigable mess; hopefully we can draw the lines in a way that comes to require the fewest exceptions later. '''My thoughts''': when there's a Bug Bite whose origin is explicitly "I'm not a Transformer, I'm hiding among them, creatures like myself find Transformers to be nauseating uncanny valley aliens," then that's a pretty extreme division, more extreme than many others we've been holding up for years without controversy, and should stay very much separate from any other Bug Bites who are just plain ol' white car Transformers. The various Cy-Kill cameos in G1 and Armada should stay separate, just because that's how we handle other hi-and-die cameos across firm storyline borders (Animated Overlord, SG Krok). I agreed at first with splitting the Burnouts/Lift-Tickets, but if it is really causing a huge dilemma I do not object to re-merging them. Each pair exists within the G1 storytelling universe. It is not essential that we build 2 different pages for G1 universe Lift-Tickets where one of them is a Diaclone mech and the other looks just like it and comes from someplace called Diaclone. We could paper that over with a "Note" explanation. The really important part is that both the Burn-Out and Lift-Ticket cases must get the same resolution. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 05:10, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:I vote for split. I regret ever pushing for merging similar concepts around the time of ''Ask Vector Prime'' because a decade ago this wouldn't have been a question, it would have been settled with "obvious they're different characters." [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:38, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Strongly in favor of putting the Diaclones back together so long as they remain essentially G1 guys. Especially since we now have ''two nigh-identical Burn-Out pages that differ only by which sliver of fiction section they possess''. Moderately in favor of putting all the dumb Cy-Kill cameos together because, like, it's only moderately funny to split out Cy-Kill (Armada) on a technicality. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:47, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: I'm going to stay out of the Bugbite / Fracture question. I'm too involved on the creative side. I think Walky nails it about Burn-Out & Lift-Ticket. And probably the Cy-Kill cameos too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:11, 29 July 2022 (EDT)

:I have to ask: if this is a concern, why did we split out the Cloud articles a month ago. Because they also are clearly designed to look like G1 characters, and aside from some minor changes in personality and dimension hopping stuff (which also applies to these three examples here), are near-identical in fiction to their Generation 1 counterparts. What makes them different from Bug Bite, Burn Out, and Lift-Ticket? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:29, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Lead Cloud translator here. As we discussed in-depth at the time, the Cloud characters do nothing *but* dimension hop and frequently cross over with the Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity and their own G1 incarnations, rendering them nigh unintelligible when buried in A-list G1 articles. The Cloud issue was one of logistics and readability, not one on the philosophy of intrinsic "G1-ness," as I believe was said at the time. I would also argue something on the scale of Cloud is a different discussion entirely from the current topic of merging two one-paragraph articles.

::On a most practical level re-merging a thoroughly deliberated and reasonably large scale split from a couple months ago just strikes me as kind of a waste of community resources.

::For those that missed it the impetus was translating the other 80-90% of the prose and the discussion can be found [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Splitting_Cloud_characters|here]]. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

Had a brainwave about a potential way to handle the GoBots characters—as a compromise between "treating them like full Transformers characters" and "treating them like external properties", use the GoBots page as a "hub" for the others. I've mocked up a couple of sandboxes for [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Cy-Kill|Cy-Kill]] and [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Bug Bite|Bug Bite]]. Any thoughts? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:16, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:If we absolutely have to (which I still really don't agree with) I'd prefer this over full fledged merging. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:02, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:I think this is a good compromise. The important thing is that there's a clear delineation between the dimension-hopping GoBots and native Cybertronians, and I think this fits the bill. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:03, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
::I still don't like the idea of rolling in the ''Cyberverse'' Bug Bite or any other not-G1-franchise iterations on the GB character concepts (like movieverse Fracture), even in the proposed super-abridged-and-linked-to-main-article format. For the appearances within the franchise of TF-origin, sure, I think this works. Cy-Kill's multiverse of murder... ehn. I'm not really feeling strongly either way but like we got hi-then-die charcater micropages aplenty, I don't think Cy is something terribly unique to not get them. Like... we got a page for "the many deaths of Optimus Prime", I feel like "the many deaths of Cy-Kill" could probably stand to be its own thing if we REALLY wanted to hammer the point of how stupid and hack it is home. Which, come to think about it, I kinda DO. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:42, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Ah, see, Fracture was something I was specifically thinking of here — I thought it would work to accomodate both the original intent and how she's been tied back to Crasher in <s>Jim's nonsense</s> fan-targeted media while still respecting the practical reality of Fracture as her own, movieverse character. That said, I do understand your reluctance, so if the majority is against this I'm not too fussed. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:22, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, it feels like "Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee" is its own Transformers thing at this point. He may have originated as a GoBots transplant (both in real life and in fiction), but that doesn't automatically make every iteration of Bug Bite a GoBot, any more than every subsequent iteration of Lockdown or Lugnut is considered an Animated character. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:34, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::::I appreciate the work Riptide put into this and like the writing / presentation style employed... and I just still don't think it's necessary. Between disambigs and "You Look Familiar...", we already have ways to cope with characters who look alike across different continuities but who aren't the same character. Most of these transplanted GoBots are absolutely not the same characters as each other - most of the Cy-Kill cameos, Cyberverse Bug Bite. There is no need for us to build a new way to unite those cross-continuity characters when nothing unites them more than the "basic concepts" that we've kept separate on hundreds of other name / appearance reuses. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:43, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::I adore this brain blast, over and above what I proposed below (as it actually accommodates, in Cy-Kill's case, say, the ''Armada/TransTech/Animated'' cameos), and think the fact that people on both sides of this polarising issue aren't immediately opposed to it makes it strike me as a really good compromise. I still would prefer the ''Diaclone'' pages to be merged with their G1 counterparts, but whether or not it's a full merge or just the "main article" structure here, the intro phrasing proposed with Cy-Kill and Bug-Bite is perfect in my opinion. The key thing for me is that, when people look up info on Cy-Kill or Burn Out, they still find a pointer to the relevant information at the exact point they'd expect it to be, and not only that, but they can chart the entire conceptual history of the character on one page (I know the disambigs theoretically do the same, but in practise Jo's approach is much more effective). Assuming the same policy isn't applied to ''Uprising'' appearances, I still think something should be done about those—but otherwise I'd be very happy with this. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:16, 1 August 2022 (EDT)

So as I understand it, the consensus is that Diaclone characters should share a page with their G1 counterparts, and that — at least for the moment — GoBot characters should be left as-is, with White Bumblebee's G1 adventures split between the GoBot and G1 pages? Would appreciate some more input before we begin implementing this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:09, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:I still don't like the Diaclone thing but clearly I'm outvoted. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:More or less. I'm fine with rolling G1 WFC Bug Bite in with the explicitly-GoBots one in the manner test-bedded above on the same grounds as the whole "Nebulan/Cybertronian" deal with Targetmaster gun-bots we've done forever; I think the proposed format both works with the way we've handled disparate depictions between different fictions within the same franchise chunk for a very long time now while noting the important real-world issues with these transplanted characters. And it's not like the combo page would be anywhere near big enough to make a split-out necessary. But I'm willing to table that for the moment while moving ahead with rolling the Diaclones back in. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:15, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
::I agree with this completely. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:11, 3 August 2022 (EDT)
:Diaclone characters should share pages with G1 counterparts who are also canonically said to be Diaclone-y. If we ever get a "Gobots Universe Bug Bite" that would be merged too - but just "white car Bug Bite" should not. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:21, 3 August 2022 (EDT)

==Proposal re: G1 pages==
I'm not expecting anything other than a hard "no" on this from the vast majority of editors, but a few people impelled me to post it, so here goes. In particular, I think this perspective is one held by many casual readers of the wiki. As I said over on [[Talk:Burn Out (Diaclone)|Burn Out's talk page]], I think both camps feel a sense of "''obviously'' these are (not) the same character", depending on whether they're coming from a strictly in-universe perspective or not. I want to put that whole discussion into an even broader perspective. Plus, I think the list of characters below is an interesting resource in its own right.

For ages, the wiki's had it so G1 appearances of characters originating in ''Robots in Disguise''—such as [[Sky-Byte (RID)]]—just get put on those pages. My understanding is that RID was considered something of a special case, because of how it was originally conceived as an in-continuity G1 thing, and remained such in Japanese continuity. For a less-prominent example, see also ''[[Power Core Combiners]]'', which similarly lists the IDW G1 appearances of [[Smolder (PCC)]] and [[Steamhammer (PCC)]] just on those pages. Again, this was a special case, because PCC was never concretely established as being a live-action movieverse thing or a G1 thing (which makes sense, because in Hasbro's eyes at the time, that wasn't a distinction that mattered to them).

There are other areas on the wiki that take a continuity-agnostic approach; I think it's just character pages that are handled so strictly. Check out [[Noisemaze Mass Production Type Version]]—which honestly ''is'' a character page in every way that matters—for a recently-made-relevant-again example. For many bigger-picture concept pages, a similar approach is used to great effect: [[Transformation]], [[Scanning]], [[Energon]], [[Protoform]], [[Spark]], [[Living metal]], [[Mini-Con]], [[Energon mutation]], just to grab a few random examples.

To draw attention to one last point, which I predict will resonate a lot with people who already agree with me and not at all with people who don't: any and all ''Beast Wars'' or ''Beast Machines'' original characters are exempt from this issue—despite, on a real-world level, there not really being any difference between those franchises and the likes of ''Armada'' or ''Animated''. It's just the lore connection that keeps it tethered, despite the wiki treating it as its ''own'' continuity family in basically every other way that matters.

My specific proposal is this: '''for characters originating ''outside of G1'', don't keep separate G1 pages.''' Treat those characters as we do Sky-Byte, ignoring the "continuity family" divide, and put the appearances on the page where they're most relevant. Here are the salient benefits of this approach:
*Have all the information on many popular post-G1 characters in the place where most casual readers would expect to look.
*Cut the Gordian knot of the GoBots/Diaclone debate.
*Finally ditch all those (BWU) pages consisting of a single sentence and a duplicated toy entry.
*Fewer redundant toy writeups which need to be maintained in parallel.
*Far, far fewer awkward paragraphs in Notes sections talking about "continuity transplants" like those are a real thing.

Here is a list of pages which I think would be affected, sorted by continuity, just from an hour or so of searching:
*'''''Diaclone''''': [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]]
*'''''GoBots''''': [[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Crasher (G1)]], [[Cy-Kill (G1)]], [[Leader-1 (G1)]], [[Rest-Q (G1)]], [[Cop-Tur (G1)]] (!)
*'''''Armada''''': [[Hot Shot (G1)]], [[Red Alert (IDW)]], [[Demolisher (G1)]], [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Sideways (RM)]] (!), [[Treadshot (IDW)]]
*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Override (BWU)]], [[Ransack (IDW)]], [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Signal Lancer (G1)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Barricade (IDW)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Breacher (G1)]], [[Terradive (G1)]], [[Hailstorm (G1)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''Animated''''': [[Bulkhead (G1)]] (!), [[Lugnut (TF 2010)]], [[Lockdown (G1)]], [[Slipstream (G1)]] (!), [[Oil Slick (G1)]], [[Lightbright (G1)]], [[Lickety-Split (G1)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Breakdown (IDW)]], [[Airachnid (G1)]], [[Predaking (Kingdom)]], [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Rescue Bots''''': [[Medix (G1)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Scatterspike (G1)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Headlock (G1)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Transit (G1)]], [[Fracture (Cybertron)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Cyberverse''''': [[Shadow Striker (G1)]], [[Croaton (G1)]], [[Meteorfire (G1)]], [[Wildwheel (G1)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Doomwings (G1)]], [[Ursa Major (G1)]], [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': (deep breath) [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Twirl (G1)]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Sky Blast (G1)]], [[Sureshock (G1)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]
I assuredly missed some, so feel free to edit the lists above to add any other characters that would be affected by this proposal which are omitted!

Again, the vast majority of these are from ''Beast Wars Uprising'', which does have some weird lingering cases that would need further individual discussion, I think: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]]. But for the most part, I really don't see any reason why there should be all these tiny nothing pages; the only reason all those Mini-Cons were not called Mini-Cons is that in the ''Uprising'' universe, Mini-Cons are called Micromasters instead (which is the lore equivalent of "[[Barricade (G1)]] doesn't look like he's made of knives"). This is even ''less'' an irreconcilable lore detail than, for example, the organic/robotic split for Targetmasters and the like. My main goal with sharing this is to revisit the ''Uprising'' policy, because from where I'm sitting, it's resulted in exactly the same horribly inconvenient setup as the ''Diaclone'' stuff. A different, specific policy there would deal with most of the examples above, and I'd be very happy; what I've suggested is just a one-size-fits-all policy.

The weirdest victim of this stated policy, I think, is that of [[Bulkhead (G1)]], who technically originated with Animated, but whose appearances in G1 media have all drawn specifically from the ''Prime'' version. [[Slipstream (G1)]] is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: [[Slipstream (Animated)]], [[Slipstream (WFC)]] and [[Slipstream (Cyberverse)]], depending on which specific version is being depicted. That means all of the Bulkhead appearances would actually go on the ''Prime'' page. I really don't feel strongly on this detail, though. [[Cop-Tur (G1)]], as mentioned in the above discussion, is another edge case. One more strange case ''not'' listed above is that of [[Emissary (IDW)]], who homages the ''Robots in Disguise'' character but genuinely has what I'd consider to be a radically different portrayal, likely inspired as much by the ''Titans Return'' figure as anything.

To be clear, I consider G1 a special case because of how it's a catch-all label for anything that isn't Hasbro's newest ground-up reboot du jour. Like it or not, G1 usually doesn't actually mean "G1" any more, it just means ''Transformers''. I absolutely wouldn't want to start merging anything from other continuity families—that way pure madness lies. But I think this proposal has clear-cut criteria for inclusion, and would feel more consistent with other areas of existing wiki policy. To give a specific, relevant example: I don't think [[Fracture (Movie)]]'s appearances should be folded onto her merged ''GoBots'' page as some have suggested, ''but'' I do think her toy writeup should be on both without any "blah blah repurposed" hedging, and likewise for the other movieverse characters based on redecos designed by [[Joe Kyde]] contemporaneously with Classics and Universe with specific G1 characters (mostly Micromasters) in mind, some of which were even intended to be released as part of the ''Universe'' toyline. These being: [[Fracture (Movie)]], [[Big Daddy (Movie)]], [[Jolt (Movie)]], [[Grindcore (Movie)]], [[Breakaway (Movie)]], and [[Crankcase (Movie)]]. [[Mudflap (Movie)]] and [[Inferno (Movie)]] are basically the exact same but nobody ever talks about that.

Finally, I think [[Gigatron (G1)]]/[[Overlord (G1)]], [[Zaptrap]]/[[Kuwagatrer]], and [[Rotorbolt (Timelines)]]/[[Skyklik]]/[[Fumes]] should prrrooobably be revisited? In the former two cases, they exist due to niche media establishing them as separate individuals within the same continuity, but we already have precedent for dealing with that—see [[Hot Shot (G1)]]. I will concede that the Rotorbolt situation is quite funny.

I understand that the wiki is structured the way it is for good reasons, but the post-[[Evergreen]] state of the franchise is one where most writers are plucking characters from anywhere in the franchise's history without any significant changes to their depiction. The existing policy will only become more cumbersome as time goes on, in my eyes—I know for many editors, the list of pages above is a horrible scary list of Exceptions, but from where I'm sitting, they feel more like exceptions as they already stand? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 07:25, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:As someone who is basically sympathetic to your goals and not knee-jerk opposed to the idea, this:
:::"Slipstream (G1) is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: Slipstream (Animated), Slipstream (WFC) and Slipstream (Cyberverse), depending on which specific version is being depicted."
:is the worst thing I've ever read. Just, why? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I was mostly being glib, I don't have a good answer there! Just wanted to draw attention to the fact that it ''would'' be a problem with the proposal. It's also been pointed out that all of [[Lockdown (G1)|Lockdown]]'s appearances are visually based on the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' toy! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:56, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Absolutely not. There's so much here that's based on false assumptions/incorrect information that I absolutely refuse to take any of this seriously. Concepts are on the same page because they are just that: concepts. There's so much to pick apart here but because I have important things to do, I'll just say that right now, the only reason why there was ''ever'' any confusion over Power Core Combiners is because fans took behind the scenes information from the company overly literally. You actually look at the one piece of information about the toyline (the brief history provided directly by Hasbro the club) and it makes it abundantly clear that it was always meant to be movieverse; I even argued back at the time about Smoulder and Steamhammer being put on that page, and the only reason why it's still that way is because the argument just fizzled out. And once again, I really have to ask: why the hell are we pushing forward merges based on "vibes" when we still keep the Sideways' (someone who is actually said in fiction to all be the same guy) apart based on moronic, petty reasons? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:01, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Yeah, no, sorry, I think this is ultimately unhelpful and going to cause more accessibility issues than it solves. "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in" is perhaps a little confusing to new readers, but it's ultimately fairly self-consistent and easy to navigate once you understand the basic concept; "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in, with the exception of RID01 which shares its pages with G1, and any latter-day characters imported into G1, which go on the pages of their non-G1 incarnations" is very confusing and requires you to be deep in the sauce to understand which characters are and are not exceptions to the rule. I obviously think that flexibility of the system is a good thing — the RID/G1 merge, while less than ideal, is definitely the best way to solve a very unintuitive issue — but the more holes we poke in the tower the closer it comes to collapsing, if you catch my drift.
:Ultimately I think the occasional silliness of "Shadow Striker (G1) who is identical to Shadow Striker (Cyberverse)" and such is the price we pay for having any structure whatsoever. The more we make exceptions on the basis of ultimately arbitrary "well this one's SO similar" the less consistent the wiki overall gets, and the harder it gets to navigate. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Basically, this. And I don't even think that drawing the franchise-based chunk distinction is all that confusing given I think most people grok the idea that characters will pop up across sub-fictions of major multi-media franchises with varying levels of similarity to prior incarnations that are still "oh, it's a wholly separate storyline, okay". That's just how these things ''do''. (and like "multiverse" has kinda become a ''thing'' in other franchises the last several years) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 10:00, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:"We've always put RID guys appearing in G1 as still being the RID character, look at Sky Byte" - what other examples make this an "always"? There WERE two Sky Byte pages, for years. We only stopped having a Sky-Byte (G2) when its character model in the IDW G1 comic was explicitly based off the new T30 toy sculpt which wound up with like half of these separate articles duplicating each other. It was argued on that talk page for a long while. The only other case I can think of at all is Gigatron (G1), and we ''don't'' treat him like Megatron (RID).
:"We treat BW as a continuity family like Armada, it looks like we are showing favoritism to them" - we treat it like a franchise within G1, which is what it is. And we disambig by franchise, not by continuity family. "Chase (RB)", not "Chase (Aligned)" or "Chase (Prime)". This was one of the concerns I raised last year when we turned Victory, Masterforce et al into G1 because they had no separate box branding of their own, wait it turned out they did, welp whattaya gonna do, no backsies.
:'''Last but MOST''', I'd say that, yes, "lore connections" mean a great deal here, it is a feature not a bug. This is a fiction-centric wiki as surely as it's an English-centric one. We put character writeups first, above the toys. We give the toys the character names and say "his stickers", not "its stickers" and talk about how it represents the character, not about how many micrograms of silicon it contains. Separating characters because they come from different storyline eras / offerings is entirely normal and reasonable for us. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:43, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I don't disagree in general, but G1/IDW Gigatron DOES share a page with RID Megatron. [[Gigatron (G1)]] is the Overlord repurpose. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:49, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Oof. Don't know why I clearly remembered them as being separate, but in any case I regret the error. Thank you.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
There's no way to organize something like this place without something somewhere seeming arbitrary. I think the existing structure is arbitrary in the best way that makes the most sense, and trying to "mitigate" that arbitrariness just creates different arbitrariness. A lot of this "but what if we redid all this to fix this particular thing" shuffling just relitigates why we already do the stuff we already do. so, like: no --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 09:54, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

== The Discord ==

Alright, seriously, we need to talk about this. It is beyond frustrating that a greater than 50% chunk of discussion about what big edits will happen on the wiki are happening on an app that people either aren't on or (in my case) aren't allowed on. I was told it was going to just to get voices onto things but that clearly isn't how it's working out. We need either some sort of archival dump of all these posts or something because I'm tired of getting into arguments where half the responses haven't even happened on the main site itself. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:45, 17 August 2022 (EDT)
: I think you're drastically overestimating how much discussion about big edits is happening on the Discord. No actual big decisions are getting made there, and we make it a point to repeatedly remind people that discussion for major changes needs to happen here before anything gets decided. But we also can't stop anyone from simply talking about things there the same way we couldn't stop discussion on the AllSpark thread when that was a thing, and having a public log of discussions from the editing channel is both infeasible and frankly unnecessary. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 09:09, 17 August 2022 (EDT)

==Designer bylines on toy writeups==

As those of us who have been tuning in to the [[Hasbro Pulse#Livestreams|Hasbro Pulse livestreams]] have no doubt noticed, one side effect of the unprecedented transparency of the current team on the ''Generations'' franchise is that we are now pretty consistently being blasted with a fire hose of toy designer credits. While there's been a scramble to record them on the designers' pages as best we can, this rapidly growing body of information is not doing the average reader a whole lot of good sequestered away on pages that require them to already know the designers by name. As such, I've put together a template to act as a designer byline for relevant toy write-ups, largely following the formatting of our existing voice actor template.

Documentation for the prototype template which I've named '''<nowiki>{{toydesigner}}</nowiki>''' can be found here:

*[[:Template:Toydesigner]]

And a variety of examples of implementation can be found here:

*[[User:AzimuthAcolyte/Sandbox/Toy credits demo]]

Is this something we would be interested in implementing?

Questions, concerns, suggestions etc are welcome. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:33, 22 August 2022 (EDT)

:I support adding this template, it's valid information and helps put names and faces in a historically anonymous industry due to the lack of credits in the products themselves.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:38, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I think this is a great idea. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I really like it. The only possible negative is that unless a whole bunch of people are very dedicated to this (or one brave soul is ''extremely'' dedicated to it) we might end up seeing it only appear on a small handful of toy entries and most will never feature it. I vote for going ahead with it regardless.
:::While we are addressing the "designer credits" issue, can we also please find a better phrase to use on the designer pages than "Toys So-and-so is known to have had a hand in creating"? It's just so overwrought. I think "Design Team Credits Include:" gets the point across much more naturally.... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:54, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::::This is a fair point. Maybe something as blunt as "Known Design Work" mirroring the "Published Works" thing we use for writers/artists? -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Looks good to me. Hope we can scrounge together sources and lists for older design teams too. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 15:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I can't see any reason not to do this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not a toy person, but that looks really cool! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:23, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
Oh wow, I'm blown away by the universally positive reception here! If there are no concerns in the next few days I guess I'll get started rolling this out. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Alrighty it's been a fair bit with no further concerns, so I have pushed the template live to [[:Template:Toydesigner]] and will begin implementing it as I have time. Any and all help is appreciated, as this will of course be a huge job. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 16:13, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Wiki Toy Photo Quality Standards ==
So we know (and had long suspected anyway) that Hasbro designers are sometimes pulling Wiki photos for reference. That's great, but we've got some toy photography on here that's a good bit off from what the figures look like in reality for one reason or another. Is there any way to flag shots that are out of whack so that they might get tweaked or replaced? This issue comes to mind since, while I've been here more or less since the Wiki started, I don't recall there being a formal set of standards for photos since it just wasn't really a big deal before now. Oversaturation is my main complaint, since one user a long while ago was going through, taking existing shots into Photoshop and oversaturating the hell out of them without regard to the actual toy, and I've noticed some updated photography like [[Prowl (Magnaboss)]] that does basically the same. It's a larger photo, but that Prowl is definitely not blazing yellow in person. Apologies in advance and please disregard if this has already been discussed elsewhere or before.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:10, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:For the record, my lighting set up is very warm, hence why Prowl's colours appear so bright. I haven't figured out the right balance in Photoshop to get the colours of figures to look spot on so figures either appear too bright or too dull in the finished product. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:30, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::Oh, I'm not intending to put you on the spot, that's just the first example I had on hand of a wider issue that we probably need to start being careful about since it appears to be (hilariously) affecting actual figures now, like Titans Return PMOP or Legacy Iguanus. When it was the one guy tweaking things to be inaccurate "because it looked better", I could follow him and revert stuff, but I can't when there's nothing to revert in most cases.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 18:38, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::I recommend ring lights, you can get some pretty cheap, they've good at spreading light out rather than heavy-focus, and they have adjustable brightness and warm/cool light settings: use "cool" (aka white/blue-tinted). Even before I got ring lights, I used "cool" light bulbs in the lamps. The problem is these are nowhere as common as the "normal" yellow-tinted bulbs, thus, go with the ring lights.
::As for "standards"... well, good luck with that. Every camera's a little different. Every MONITOR is a little different. Hell, I have a double-monitor setup with different models and they have small but distinct differences in brightness & etc; honestly I'm good with it since it lets me check how things may look to different people. But I think maybe a tag for photos that we are CERTAIN are too far off from final product (be they user-made or stock images) may not be a bad idea. Assuming we notice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:44, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, a tag we can throw on to a photo just to make it at least visible that it's incorrect would be useful. And would probably prompt a deco designer to gather some secondary reference material, assuming the tag's obvious. I like the idea.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:29, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I've noticed that the quality of the UT stuff in the toys section flunctuates greatly-- for example, ML Starscream still uses the guidebook picture, and Superlink ver of the combining Optimus downright doesn't exist. I've started to collect UT toys since Hasbro has been updating UT stuff with more commitment and I have 0 faith in them doing it right, and most of the stuff I've gotten are the JP versions. For minor alterations like ML/ Armada Megs, is it worth uploading a completely new picture of ML Megatron onto his page? Another issue worth regarding discussing is "cartoon accuracy". Whilst Hasbro is indeed working on making more accurate figures, they obviously aren't 100% accurate, like 86 starscream using the commonly accepted G1 logo instead of the sunbow accurate one with the spike in the middle, and even from a sculpt and proportional standppint the ER mold is far from accurate compared to the sunbow model, let alone MP52. I actually cleaned up the page for TM2 Megatron because he deviates pretty heavily if you compare the CG model to the final toy, and changed the claim that Skids is "toon" accurate as he is blantently based on the original toy in deco. The same goes for Starscream, aside from the forearms and forehead hes blatently based on the T30 toy. I also had to edit that bit --[[User: Pixelmaster|Pixelmaster]] 3:31 HKT

==Reconsolidating some of our pages==
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, but I'd like to propose re-merging some of our excessively split articles back into something more manageable. It seems like that once a page is split out, a) we get a lot less editorial oversight, as the recent toy page trimming has revealed, b), stuff does not get updated nearly as often as they would be on their respective mainpages, and c) it makes information harder to find by pushing it behind a subpage that's not readily accessible.

Obviously I understand that splits are necessary for the really long pages like [[Optimus Prime (G1)]], [[Megatron (G1)]], and soforth, but when you get down to like, [[Mirage (G1)]] or [[Hound (G1)]] or [[Hot Shot (Armada)]], there's barely anything of any significance on their main pages beyond Dreamwave or the odd IDW cameo. Are, for instance, [[Ravage (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ravage]]'s Marvel adventures that major that they can't fit into the main page? Are [[Hook (G1)/toys|Hook]] or [[Warpath (G1)#Toys|Warpath]] really that inundated with toys that they need their own subpage? If it's a problem of just ''length'', then a lot of the subpaged articles or mainpage stuff like the storybooks could just be trimmed down into something more manageable—as I did with G1 Cliffjumper's Marvel section earlier this year. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 17:00, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:I 100% agree with this. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:04, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Fully in favour. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 17:20, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Sub-pages should, on their own, be significantly sizable pages to justify making readers link-jump. A dozen toys does not strike me as remotely enough to justify a subpage split. Being ''in'' a major long-running fiction but mostly having appearances in a minority of installments that can be summed up in two sentences doesn't justify a split. New editing tools are fun and all, but just 'cuz you gotta new hammer doesn't mean you have to go hunting for anything that looks vaguely nail-like. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:18, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Incoming maintenance ==

Just a heads up, our host is going to be doing some maintenance in about an hour that may cause problems with the site, so if you have trouble reaching it and therefore cannot read this message, that's what it is. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:11, 23 November 2022 (EST)

== Foreign names ==

A dispute came up recently on the [[Megatron (ES)]] page. User:Kiké Prime has been providing Hungarian names for all the characters, but this one apparently is just "Megatron". Cyberlink420 removed it. I disputed it, pointing out that not listing it leaves the implication that we do not know the name of the character in the language. Despite having my reversion again reverted, I still find deliberately leaving blanks in our name lists odd. I am thus bringing the matter here for further discussion. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:16, 5 December 2022 (EST)
:My understanding has always been that we only add foreign names if they are different from the English name. Per pages like [[Megatron (G1)]], this includes examples where the name is the same, but is spelled with a diacritic or using a different alphabet. So "Megatron" wouldn't be different enough to justify inclusion, but examples like Mégatron, Megatrón, Мегатрон and メガトロン would. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:10, 5 December 2022 (EST)

== Nonbinary Character Category ==

So, we now have another nonbinary character (who actually used their pronouns during the media no less), [[Nightshade (ES)|Nightshade]] from [[Transformers: EarthSpark (franchise)|Earthspark]] (Nightshade at time of posting doesn't have a page yet)! The other fully for certain fully intentional one is [[Screwball]] from [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] while [[Acid Storm (Cyberverse)|Acid Storm]] was at least an out of media by writer retcon of animation, and [[Overlord_(G1)#Ask_Vector_Prime|Overlord's]] gender is somewhat nebulous on where that fits beyond being gender expansive due to being [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#December 23, 2015|"what some would call genderfluid"]] but that at least puts us at three. Given that we have a trans category now we thought it best to at this point suggestion a nonbinary category for the sake of users (including gender expansive people) easily finding nonbinary characters on here. Obviously adding Nightshade will have to wait until they have a page but any thoughts on this yea or nay? [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 18:28, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:I forgot about Screwball. I think with three confirmed examples, even without the edge case of Overlord, that's probably enough to justify one. Care will have to be taken, however, to only include confirmed examples and not use it as a dumping ground for any character whose gender has never been explicitly identified. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:37, 8 December 2022 (EST)
::Authorial intent and all, but I can say that if I had the option to go back and rewrite it I would have used the term non binary for Overlord. I feel like Acid Storm is more of an edge case; it’s what one person said on their account to justify it. Whenever Acid Storm actually says something they’re animated with a female face; it’s not done at random.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:47, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::Acid Storm changes from masculine male to feminine female and back. Gender-fluid, sure, but definitely non-binary? As for Overlord, in the Legends manga Mega gives Overlord a female-presenting face - is there a pronoun change during that time? Would we have more candidates for inclusion in a Gender-fluid category first? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:17, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::::Thank for the notes folks, that does help to piece this together! Just want to note that a pronoun change is not necessary for a gender being experienced in fluidity to be the one expressed or what have you, so unless the Legends manga actually has some sort of statement about Overlord's fluidity that kind of puts us back with an umbrella term of nonbinary (which we are unsure as not having read the Legends manga if that would work for that Overlord so we can't speak to where/if Overlord falls under gender expansiveness beyond the fact that Overlord's presentation changes depending on the binary bond partner right?). Acid Storm is an edge case yes but if we do count the edge case that they are we think it is worth noting that for Acid Storm what Catt said was specifically that changing expression is just something they do, and "any pronouns" work for Acid Storm, no statement about the binary. Of course, we only see two faces which are the two different Seeker faces that were otherwise delineated by gender, but at this point we're getting into the opt-in thing of 'x person is genderfluid and thus considers themself nonbinary' or 'z person is genderfluid and only considers themself as under the multigender umbrella'. Which we don't have detail on really if Acid Storm is genderfluid as how they know themselves right? Because that's just a thing that was written in the Female Transformers page because of (no blame being given, it's understandable) the user finding that to be the term that fit best? Feel like we've ended up just pointing out an need for just a gender expansive category instead but ah well. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:46, 1 January 2023 (EST)
::::::We seem to have killed this with a non-solution for the nonbinary category by pointing out that gender expansive is more certain than saying genderfluid. If we count Nightshade, Overlord, and Screwball, is that a go on nonbinary, or should we just have a gender expansive category at this point that would also be one trans characters use? For people wondering what gender expansive means you can find a definition here https://www.diversitystyleguide.com/glossary/gender-expansive/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/08/gender-expansive-mean/ [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:18, 6 February 2023 (EST)
:::::::Respectfully, I think needing to invoke a glossary suggests the term is so little-used in common parlance that it would not be useful for our needs and style. We don't have a category tag at the bottom of a bunch of BW characters saying "tetrapods" or "perissodactyls" (we ''do'' talk like that on [[Popular beast alternate modes]], maybe a grouping ''page'' would be a better approach? Just a thought...). If we are looking for a category tag I think it would be better to find the term that unambiguously covers the largest number of candidates, without a need to rely on edge cases, maintaining both accuracy and readability. I see three characters that could sensibly go in a Gender-fluid tag, one that could go in a Non-binary tag (meaning we wouldn't make the latter). We may be facing a case where there are few enough disparate examples that there isn't one single category tag that usefully unites them. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:55, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::::::::With the most recent block of EarthSpark episodes having further explored Nightshade's character and introduced a new nonbinary character in the form of Sam (this also saw the term nonbinary used in the show for the first time), we have been discussing the topic of introducing a Nonbinary characters category on the Discord. Doing some research, AVP also confirmed the Tigerhawk of Primax 496.22 Alpha (the Beast Wars cartoon continuity) to be nonbinary, so that's another character to justify that category. It's been suggested by an expert on the matter that we could introduce a "Gender expansive characters" category as an umbrella category, with Genderfluid characters, Nonbinary characters, and Transgender characters existing as subcategories as a way of future-proofing our coverage of gender expansive characters, while also ensuring we don't lump every gender expansive character together into a single broad category and hopefully making these concepts easier to navigate for casual readers. - [[User:Archforce|Archforce]] ([[User talk:Archforce|talk]]) 17:26, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::In sequence you replied to my post of Feb 7 but seem to have side-stepped the part where I questioned the usefulness of a category tag that will not be widely understood. Also, creating such a category exactly ''is'' "lumping them all together into a single broad category." So is that approach desirable or not? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::: They said the word nonbinary in the show. In a show full of nonbinary rep. And then nonbinary characters exists outside of that show, and it would not be a dangerous bet to expect this to continue. But people are born with an innate understanding of what an Alpha Primax 9384u743 is, or Transmetals, or Powermasters, but not what a nonbinary person is so yeah maybe we are going too far on this website for nerds who want to learn more about things related to Transformers (like nonbinary characters). We have a category called council members. Literally for any character who has served on any council. I did not understand what "council members" actually refered to before I clicked on it, assumed it was more specific than it was, but in fact it took me two seconds to figure it out. A non-binary category and/or gender-expansive category would surely be the same. And as Archforce says, make these concepts easier to navigate. Or if that was too long, what Walky said. Seriously. You also appear to misunderstand what is meant by lumping together. Because putting all non-binary people in a non-binary category is accurate, and is something I and at least some others want, putting all non-binary people on a transgender page would be a misrepresentative "all of these are the same thing right?". Gender-expansive on the other hand comes from someone familiar with the matter, and as a non-binary person myself, as someone who has researched gender representation in media at an honours level (to flex some credentials that yeah I could be making up), I agree with what is being said on the Discord. Gender expansive as an umbrella provides the room to not lump everyone together while recognising yeah there is something shared in any act of gender that is not one of cisgender conformity. Having transgender and nonbinary characters on the same page while called out as two seperate subcategories I again think helps casual readers navigate based on this. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 18:40, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::Not using the best useful terms because they're not understood by enough people is extremely self-defeating. I reject that line of thinking. (also, like, c'mon, the first complete article for this wiki was gaddang Robot-Master, not Optimus Prime, so I think we can say the words "gender expansive" even if someone hasn't heard of them) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:49, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::Thank you all for the discussion! To clarify regarding aesthetics (because gender is aesthetics, we can give recommendations on stuff to read re that), the term gender expansive does not in fact cover everybody, merely all the bots we're talking about it in this instance and likely future unless we get canon transformers fiction that actually uses a variable alien aesthetic system that isn't gender but is something similar. To put this another way: not all human societies' aesthetic category concepts and formulation of individual and collective context for self such as pronouns, names, expressions, (to use Leslie Feinberg's words for navigating transness and gender itself, the 'poetics,' not just construction) etc. used or uses those in a way that neatly fits modern Western gender constructs with a large number of examples both from outside Europe and within it. In a similar vein some xeno aesthetic spectrum folks (like some of ourselves, and yes we're getting very obscure here the gender parallel is xenogender) and speculative fiction/sci-fi about aliens live or navigates the idea of aesthetic structures that are not gender at all but merely overlap or parallel.
:::::::::::Transformers fiction has really only touched on the subject of the alien aspect of the bots' gender or lack thereof when trying to portray that something is there by e.g.; parallel with the embodying and living of their various modes such as when Lodestar speaks to having weapon retrofit dysphoria in the 2021 annual (yes, the 'embodying and living' is something we're borrowing from Gayle Salamon on how she frames gender), their unique histories, the December 23rd 2015 AVP gender answer having a note about continuities where the concept of gender is barely relevant, and possibly that time 'gal' got put in quotations (it's still unclear what Maggs meant by that but that's okay). So rest assured that while gender expansive is a broad category- it only future proofs us until alien terminology or narrative that is clearly shown in replacement of when gender would otherwise be used in a story actually happens in canon. Which would be incredibly exciting, but isn't where we are right now. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:11, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::But we are nonetheless at a special point in time in the transformations of transformers, that the categories genderfluid, nonbinary, and gender expansive would be useful for. <3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:15, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::Gosh that felt good to dedicating an afternoon to doing, thank you for the help! We feel that [[Editor|Chief]] ought to be included in the gender expansive category, and given the entry regarding Tigerhawk that was mentioned here, Spittor arguably also could be [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#May_23.2C_2015|"In some universes where Spittor scans an organic alternate mode, his biological system conforms to female while his Cybertronian gender identity is male."]]. Chief seems fairly obvious? RE Spittor where his situation could be argued to break down is the cybertronian understanding of gender maybe not matching gender and anatomy as framed by humans but then that in itself still qualifies. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:32, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::: *shrugs* maybe the latter re Spittor and similar situations is just something to note in an eventual article rather than to throw in the category itself [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:45, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::I'm gonna say that I'm for Editor while Spittor is ultimately a way of just saying that his alt-mode is a female frog even though he's male. Ala Tigatron in the cartoon, Waspinator, etc. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:57, 5 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::::Thank you, that helps clarify things! :3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:47, 5 March 2023 (EST)

== Adding an informative table to each character page ==
I was thinking about it since it's striking.. lack.. There should be a way to tell people in which and how many episodes/issues/movies each character appears in the continuity they belong to, their debut episode/issue movie, what aliases they have had and nicknames they were given by other characters, a more centered area for the voice or live actors, a link to their gallery pages(if they have any) and one to their disambiguation pages etc. The kind of information that one would prefer to find with greater ease, especially if they aren't members. And talking about their appearances, that should prove quite useful for future page edits, since we'll know exactly where to look especially when it's about latecomers or characters that don't appear on a regular basis. I just think it'd be useful. [[User:Darthrone|Darthrone]] ([[User talk:Darthrone|talk]]) 15:44, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:This kind of infobox was discussed at the very earliest days of this wiki, and it was decided that there was just way, way too much information for it to work... and this was in 2006, BEFORE the franchise exploded. TF is such a fragmented kludge of fictions from multiple sources and creators spanning 40 years that any major character would end up with one ultra-massive thing of dubious use (can't say I see the value in a "number of appearances" tally, aside from the headache of keeping that accurate over time and arguing "what counts"), or a billion splintered ones spread across the page for the different fictions. And "nicknames" is always a minefield as those tend to turn into a massive list of "someone called them this once" which is... not helpful. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:46, 2 February 2023 (EST)
::Even if it had been a day-1 thing, I don't see how this is more informative than our current style. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:58, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:::I'm for infoboxes, but the information you're asking for is far too abstract and meaningless in this franchise. (We are absolutely not doing "nicknames". No.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:09, 2 February 2023 (EST)

==The (BWU) tag==
I understand the reasons why [[#Proposal re: G1 pages|my previous proposal]] regarding the proliferation of (G1) pages for random newer characters was soundly rejected. However, my main motivation for raising it was that I find the huge quantity of (BWU) pages for "repurposed" Mini-Cons and bestial Transformers to be reader-unfriendly, so I wanted to make a case for making an exception for ''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]'' cameos. ''Uprising'' was an obscure barely-canon multi-continuity-drifting web serial which we are very unlikely to get further instalments of, and most of the relevant characters are similarly very deep pulls who will assuredly not be appearing again in future stories, and who will otherwise be stuck with tiny stub-pages forever. Most of these are Mini-Cons (here Micromasters) or bestial Transformers (here Protoformers), with a few boats or Constructicons from "[[Derailment]]". In many cases, I perceive ''Uprising'' as having tried to give these toys a hint of fiction where previously they had none at all, much like [[Ask Vector Prime]] before it. It's a very different phenomenon to most so-called "continuity transplants" we've seen in other series (such as with, say, [[Hot Shot (G1)]]), which are instead rooted in the popularity of those characters.

I think the problem here is that strictly speaking ''Uprising'' is a "Primax" continuity, sure, but it lifts dozens of characters (let alone concepts) unchanged from later stories. Slavishly hewing to that label when it's such an intertextual melting pot has resulted in this unfriendly setup. It feels like a fair decision made at the time (was [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive64#Derailment & Uprising pages|this discussion]] the one?) but in my opinion the wiki's policy kinda fails here. If we get rid of the (BWU) tag, the (G1) back-ports remaining (a minority!) will be for more significant characters, often adapted more radically. Here's the list of tiny pages we could be rid of, just like that:

*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]

There's a handful of ''Uprising'' characters that need a (G1) page anyway for non-''Uprising'' reasons; I'm totally ambivalent about where the ''Uprising'' content ends up for these: [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Override (BWU)]] (!), [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Twirl (G1)]].

Finally there's a few weird cases that would merit individual discussion but would probably just need to keep their own pages: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]].

Here is a ([https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&redirs=1&profile=all&search=%22from+the%22+%22continuity+families%22 probably non-exhaustive]) list of existing cases of multi-continuity drifting you should probably consider before weighing in:
* [[Buckethead]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 31, 2015|this Ask Vector Prime answer]])
* [[Drydock (TF 2010)]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 13, 2015|this answer]] which explicitly has him travel from one continuity to another)
* [[Drelnar Feh'd]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 17, 2015|this one]])
* [[Scorpia (G2)]], [[Autoceptor]], [[Deceptor]], and [[Kaltor]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#June 12, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Clear Skies Team]], [[Rapid Intervention Team]], [[Prehistoric Team]], [[Demolition Team]], [[Dirt Digger Team]], [[Heavy Load (Universe)]] and the [[Mobile Fortification Team]], and [[Detectas]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]]).
**However, exceptions from these Mini-Con teams are [[Nightscream (Cybertron)|Nightscream]], [[Offshoot (Cybertron)|Offshoot]], [[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]] and [[Knockdown (Cybertron)|Knockdown]], who all have separate (Cybertron) basis on the basis of receiving separate bios after being packed in with ''Cybertron'' Primus...
**...but then [[Liftor]] is all on a single page, despite his ''Classics'' bio.
**[[Snarl (Classics)|Snarl]], [[Sledge (Classics)|Sledge]], [[Wideload (Classics)|Wideload]], [[Knockdown (Classics)|Knockdown]], and [[Steel Wind]] already have ''Uprising'' content on their pages, but that makes sense as these were originally ''Classics'' guys.
* The [[Saurian Strike Team]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Minicon 8 Pack]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 24, 2015|this one]])
* The ''Dark of the Moon'' Mini-Cons [[Dualor (DOTM)]], [[Triceradon (DOTM)]], [[Rav (DOTM)]], and [[Catilla (DOTM)]], plus [[Ironlunge]], [[Reptix]], [[Sling (AOE)]], [[Gnashteeth]], [[Wedge Shape]], [[Brimstone (Universe)]], [[Apexus]], [[Gredator]], and [[Dragoyell]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#August 13, 2015|this one]])
** Weirdly, we ''separately'' have a page for [[Rav (BWU)]], but Catilla has Unicron Trilogy, movie, and ''Uprising'' appearances covered all on the one page!
* [[Galadria]] and [[Ramak]] (because of [[Source:Transformers: Spacewarp's Log#December 5, 2015|this post]])
* Am I to understand that [[Wind Sheer (RID)]], [[Skyfire (RID)]] and the [[Dimensional Patrol]] each have just a single page because (RID) ''is'' part of the G1 continuity family sometimes...?
* And I understand that [[Primus Vanguard]] cameos just go on their original pages because that's a weird thing kinda outside of G1 anyway (at least from an in-universe perspective, if not a real-world one).
* ''Diaclone'' examples like [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], and [[Chifumi Takahashi]] have been discussed to death.
* [[Monsterous]] was retconned to originally be from an Aligned universe (in [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#October 21, 2015|this post]], though I can't actually find any mention of Uniend? EDIT: [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#November 7, 2015|found it]]!)
* [[Primacron]] was apparently mentioned in ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II| The AllSpark Almanac II]]''.
* And [[Sentinel Supreme]] is just an Easter egg that everyone seemed to shrug about at the time.

To those who say the exception I'm proposing would be confusing, I submit these existing examples where we've apparently neglected to split something out as evidence that the only people this confuses are wiki editors like me wondering why they're not all that way. Maybe I'm just unaware of some aspect of the existing policy which accounts for all these cases? But is it really helpful to anyone to have a given toy's associated fiction squirrelled away somewhere separate you have to go into the disambiguation to find? We recently merged [[Chromhorn]] (another Sorenson job) on the basis that "There's literally no reason for these to be on different pages. They are the same thing." Can we not do the same for these Sorenson-penned cases that are basically going "look, the exact same guy shows up in multiple universes, alright?" And if the answer is no, will someone go through and split all these out? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:27, 6 February 2023 (EST)

:I think my response to your earlier G1-import proposal still applies here: the more exceptions we make to our system for the sake of "accessibility", the harder the overall structure becomes to grok for a new reader, and thus ironically it all becomes ''less'' accessible. Why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steel Jaw]], but ''Uprising'' Bisk be at [[Bisk (RID)]]? Or, conversely, why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steeljaw (RID)]], but LBS Steeljaw be at [[Steel Jaw|Steeljaw (IDW)]]? Neither solution is good.
:As for the current list of exceptions, I'd argue everything you list from Buckethead to the DOTM Mini-Cons should probably be split. Galadria and Ramak are characters from outside media, so we don't split them across continuity lines. Wind Sheer and Skyfire have one page for consistency with the other RID guys. The source on Monsterous being Aligned is [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#November_7.2C_2015|here]], but I would argue that's just giving an origin to the GoBot and so they should share a page anyway.
:Lastly - I object to you bringing the Chromhorn thing into this, as I don't think it's a fair comparison. Chromhorn wasn't making any exception to our categorisation system; it was one page saying "Chromhorn is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT" and another saying "Chromhorn Forest Type is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT", and the former was somehow a "repurposing" of the fictionless latter. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:24, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::Totally get the Steeljaw example—although it ''is'' crazy that we're currently disambiguating G1 wolf Steeljaw simply by [[Steel Jaw]]. You should post about the disambiguation tag policy change you suggested on Discord, I think a lot of people were thinking along similar lines there. Agree with your interpretation of the current policy as to which of the examples listed should be split and which shouldn't—although the more I think about the Primus Vanguard, the more I think those should technically be split too. While I guess the [[Time Warrior (AVP)|Time Warrior]]s are multiversal travellers like Drydock. RE: Chromhorn, I understand why it's technically different; I brought it up because I think it speaks to the tenor of ''Ask Vector Prime'' answers—in spirit, I think its aim was exactly the same as with the Mini-Con examples I've given.
::What do I mean by that? To match your Steeljaw example, from the opposite angle: say I'm your typical fan scrolling [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)]], and I click on, say, [[Dualor (DOTM)]], wondering if he's ever shown up in anything. In their current state, I get my answer immediately. With the proposed split for consistency, I instead get a page telling me that Dualor (DOTM) is a dinosaur Mini-Con from ''Dark of the Moon'', some info about the toy, ''maybe'' ending with an inscrutable note about how he was "repurposed" as an identical guy. Now, there's ''already'' an unrelated [[Dualor (Armada)]], so we'd need to make a disambiguation page. We can see this already by looking at [[Snow Cat (Universe)]], which is barren (the very scenario AVP so often tried to address!), and doesn't even admit to the existence of [[Snow Cat (BWU)]] aside from a general Snow Cat disambiguation tag. In some existing cases like [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], we've mirrored a toy writeup, which needs upkeep in parallel; in others, like Snow Cat, we're asking the user to visit the other page to read about the toy ''anyway''. To my mind, this is inarguably less accessible. I don't understand arguments made about accessibility here which are predicated on readers having learned editing policy to begin with, and I don't think this proposal would actually make it any harder to learn the system.
::I regret not listing out all the individual members of those Mini-Con teams above, to better communicate the sheer number of pages that would need to be made (and pages that would need to be renamed, in case of conflicts) to create this inconvenience in service of a rule we've already been ignoring without issue. Nobody wants to do this work, and I think it's less that no-one cares, and more that some people think it'd actually make the wiki worse, and the rest don't particularly think it'd make the wiki better.
::What about just making an exception for Mini-Cons/Micromasters? I've talked about ''Uprising'', but obviously the vast majority of cases that theoretically need splitting aren't from ''Uprising'' at all. Could probably even do a generic template like "X exists in multiple continuity families, and is a Micromaster/Maximal/Predacon in those without Mini-Cons". Thus your Steeljaws and Bisks and Overrides go unchanged, no problems or ambiguity there! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
:Once upon a time, I probably would have pushed for something like this, but where we are now: I am not a fan of any push towards treating something differently based on how "relevant" something is or not. It goes against the very spirit this wiki was founded on, because that is what was happening to the Wikipedia coverage of Transformers where they were just getting rid of things wholesale because of "relevancy." I can understand the basic point behind this, but I feel that doing so would set a bad precedent that could be exploited in the future.
:I'd be fine with splitting most of these out. I've said it before elsewhere but by and large a lot of the inconsistencies were largely the result of different contributors adding stuff or splitting stuff without a general consensus, and they haven't been cleaned up afterwards. Also, a minor note, but the Liftor thing was mainly cause no one noticed at the time until I wrote up about the profile years after the fact. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:26, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::If I gave the impression "relevancy" was the main thrust of my argument here, I didn't mean to! Like, it goes both ways—would we be merging because ''Uprising'' is so irrelevant that we shouldn't devote all these random stub pages to it, ''or'' are we merging because it's sufficiently relevant that we shouldn't be hiding that content in stub pages nobody visits? Either is true! I'm arguing for convenience and clarity. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: This definitely feels like the strongest argument to the merge in my mind. The wiki is no stranger to niche pages, pages for nameless, fictionless, toyless nonentities. But I believe these fictionless toys and toyless fiction which are really the same thing would be a richer niche page for the merges. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 20:36, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: I really think that once again, this overrates the number of people who would be confused by this, and underrates the number of people who would be able to figure out where to go if they wish to find the information. Like, I hate to do the whole "I was able to figure it out" thing but I was a small child with a single-digit age when I first discovered the wiki and I was able to figure out pretty quick why it was laid out the way it was. I'm not saying there's no room for improvement; I think there's a lot of cases in which the way we have things set up now is kind of ridiculous. But in this particular case, I don't really see how merging things would be any more convenient than just leaving them the way they are and splitting out the cases that we never got around to. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:52, 7 February 2023 (EST)

Just found some more pages that would need splitting under current policy: [[Crystal Widow]], [[Seawave]], [[Cradon]], [[Freefall (Kre-O)]], [[Liftoff]], and [[Epsilon Holdings]]. All due to ''Uprising'' and ''The Allspark Almanac''. Really hoping someone can propose a solution here that doesn't involve creating a billion pages and disambigs. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 09:24, 18 February 2023 (EST)
:We don't split businesses/locations/organizations, so Epsilon Holdings isn't one we need to consider. Kre-O doesn't really occupy a continuity family in our organization and I would just split the rest, especially Crystal Widow. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:28, 18 February 2023 (EST)

Noticed the ''[[Transformers: Earth Wars| Earth Wars]]'' stub templates on Mini-Con pages for [[Wheeljack Kunai]] and [[Bido]]. The game had previously added [[Gabu]], [[Zori]], [[Baru]], [[Bashbreaker]], [[Windstrike]], and [[Tricerashot]]. Following policy, these should ''all'' be split—see [[Giza (POTP)]] and [[Giza (Prime)]], although to be fair they're not the same animal at least. As always, I think the fiction for those toys should go on the pages for those toys. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 12:39, 17 March 2023 (EDT)

Just finished going through documenting the preliminary bios for the [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Predator Attack Team]], and [[Mini-Con Council of Sages]], from when the ''Classics'' Mini-Cons were still going to be released as ''Cybertron'' two-packs, and it occurs to me that if ''all'' of those guys end up getting duplicate pages, the Unicron Trilogy pages would be where that information should probably end up. Right now it's all a bit of a mess, as some of those characters have (Cybertron) pages via the Primus bonus-pack-in, some don't, and others had their names changed from their would've-been ''Cybertron'' incarnations anyway. I've generally tried to stick to linking to the existing pages rather than redlinking—naturally I remain convinced that it'd be for the best if we didn't distinguish between ''Classics'' and ''Cybertron'' at all in this case and just kept all the relevant information for each of those Mini-Cons on one page per; I think [[Liftor]] is proof that this is in fact perfectly fine and much, much less of a headache for readers. See whatever the hell is going on with the page for the [[Night Rescue Team]], which names the patrol car as "[[Strongarm (Classics)|Strongarm]]/[[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]]" as though that's something which makes any sense at all. Tangentially, I also reckon the material from these early bios (which evidently made it out via the official Hasbro website ''somehow'') should probably just be written up in fiction sections proper, along the lines of, say, cancelled Dreamwave issues...? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:03, 23 April 2023 (EDT)
:The Cybertron Primus pack-in guys had bios written by Sepelak and Troop (who also wrote the bios for the Classics guys) that deliberately made them different characters for the Club website with little in common besides their physical appearances. It's not a case of "old rules" at all, it was something specific done at the time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:28, 23 April 2023 (EDT)

==Wikia links still around?==
https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Smelting_pool&direction=prev&oldid=109505
Are other archived "intermediate / obsolete" edit pages still pointing to Wikia? Or have they been somehow neutralized? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:52, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
:Not exactly sure what you're asking? I mean, the link is literally part of the text in that edit, so it wouldn't be removed. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:25, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
::Is that page (and presumably any other intermediate edit page from those years) still directing search engines to Wikia? Some years ago it was seen as pretty urgent that every last such link be removed, regardless of location. Not "gone from current pages," gone from ''everything''. As I recall, there were even refs to Wikia pre-struck-out on pages so people could only see them in mid-edit, but they were still boosting Wikia's rankings, and an admin had to create a bot to scrape them out of everywhere. If they still persist on hundreds of intermediate edit pages from those years, should those pages be totally erased, as they would be when randos insert porn or hate speech here? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:10, 26 May 2023 (EDT)
:::Historic page revisions are not indexed by Google, so they won't boost Wikia rankings. Those links will be present on any revisions before March 2008, as those revisions are from a backup imported from when the site was on Wikia. We still do have some Wikia links on live pages ([[Miscolorings based on the Generation 1 cartoon]] is an example) but those links will be marked nofollow as all external links are, so they should, in theory, not be boosting Wikia's ranking either. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:04, 26 May 2023 (EDT)

== ROTB being a reboot - what should we do with that? ==

I don't necessarily hold an opinion on this issue, but according to an interview with the director of ROTB, Rise of the Beasts will be a reboot of the live-action movie franchise. Will this affect how existing articles are grouped and written? Or does the wiki just consider it a case of authorial intent? ([https://news.tfw2005.com/2023/05/27/transformers-rise-of-the-beasts-director-steven-caple-jr-confirms-rotb-set-in-a-rebooted-universe-484900 source]) [[User:Gigirassy|Gigirassy]] ([[User talk:Gigirassy|talk]]) 16:19, 27 May 2023 (EDT)
:The wiki is intentionally waiting for the movie's official release to make a stand on the matter. Regardless, even if the movie is a reboot it will not affect the wiki as much as you may be thinking it will; both movie series will simply be considered as two different continuities that are still part of the same continuity family overall (just like the multitude of G1 universes out there that are all in the same family). What may or may not happen is some characters may get splitted pages depending on if there's enough evidence for that, but for now all we can do is just wait and see. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:56, 27 May 2023 (EDT)

== Adaptation notes ==

Can we figure out a way to format this information that isn't an ugly and intrusive note that fucks up the formatting? Like, convert them into storylinks or references. Collapsible notes. Something. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:(also probably take a weed whacker to the insane number of images people try to stuff into those film sections but that's another discussion) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:09, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
::I second that. Though we would also have to find a place to put the extra information those notes sometimes provide about how the adaptation differs from the source material. Like how [[Optimus Prime (Movie)#Transformers film|Optimus Prime]]'s notes on the 07 movie mention he kills Barricade in the adaptations when that doesn't happen in the movie itself. Or the very recent example of how ROTB [[Wheeljack (ROTB)|Wheeljack]] appears [[Mission at the Museum|in a book based entirely on the half of the movie he wasn't supposed to appear in]]. So how will we deal with that? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:40, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Against this. When it comes to an informational wiki, utility should be a higher priority than aesthetic taste. Speaking of aesthetics, however… [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:We can be informative without haphazardly shoving "hey, here's some inconsequential adaptations you likely don't care about" into readers' faces. Not all information is created equal, as we've already established by hiding any VAs that the great majority of readers don't care about. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:41, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

I'd be against this. The notes make it clear that one thing is an adaptation of another, allow differences to be described succinctly without wholesale repetition of an entire story section, and I honestly think a mass of stoylyinks for every movie character in the first 3 Bay films after their write-up would be far more visually obtrusive and difficult to parse than the note that's already there, for example.[[User:AkibaSilver|AkibaSilver]] ([[User talk:AkibaSilver|talk]]) 22:31, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm gonna more or less agree with the above. Storylinks are ''absolutely'' a bad idea once you get beyond, like, two in a row. And I really don't feel like there's ever going to be enough adaptations of any one thing to justify a whole template, where "voice actors in a dozen languages" and "holy crap they redecoed/retooled/rereleased this toy THIS MANY TIMES" certainly can get hugely bulky. And honestly, if they're not a huge list, I like the easy discoverability of keeping them in a note below; hiding them whiffs of "we should de-prioritize the coloring books and not-current media on character pages" that we rejected from the get-go. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:56, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

== Images and formatting ==

Here’s something that baffles me; at least far back as the MP announcement of the Trainbots, there’s been a push by some to remove images from articles for reasons that mostly elude me. I agree that a lot of our older writeups have images that aren’t good, but what I don’t get is the removal of them from sections that only have one image. Sure, a lot of the time it’s for characters that have very minor roles in something, but I’ve always thought that McFeely’s way of making articles (by getting the best possible image of each character in every section whenever possible) is the gold standard for how we make articles. On a loosely related note; I’m not convinced by Sipher’s recent push to align images to the right; I think the alternating thing we usually have is much cleaner (aside from in toy sections). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:29, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
: Opening a section with a left-justified image almost invariably fucks up the normal "flow" of how your eyes move when you reach the end of a line: you move down and ''left'' to the next line. Most of the time, left-justified images at the top of the section push that next line of text to the ''right'' of the header. It may look "better" if you unfocus and just look at the page as a blur, but if you're actually ''reading'' the text, it's a subtle but very there stumbler. If it's a section where there's a "voice actors" bit or a note template ''above'' the image where the end of that is ''definitely'' going to end up beyond the rightmost border of the image, that's fair. ''Every'' image doesn't have to be on the right. Alternating is fine within longer sections. But opening with left should be used sparingly and judiciously. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

==Two things sandboxed a while ago maybe we might consider==
*[[User:M Sipher/Sandbox:ToysBullets]]
*[[User:M Sipher/sandbox:ToypageAltmodesAdded]]
I mean I'm not gonna lie, these are both in the "oh my grodd so many pages" realm, and worse, they're not something we can really get a bot to do. But, Iunno, something to consider.<br>
The insignia bullet point thing on individual character pages, only so many characters have toys across multiple factions (most would have G1/G2 variants), so this doesn't feel as "important" an addition, but, well. Could be useful. Adding altmodes to the toyline page listings, however, I think there's a decent case for, especially when dealing with obscure toy-only characters in lines loaded to the gills with toys. It'll certianly help the "man I remember I had this cool toy what was its name" searches. And it involves tweaking considerably fewer pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:09, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm in favor of the first from a readability standpoint. It just looks better. On the alt modes, I worry it might open the door to edit skirmishes on some of the more vague vehicle modes out there (thinking specifically of Devcon that just came out, or things that are just indeterminate like Cybertron Menasor or Protoform Optimus/Starscream), that just "Cybertronic car/jet/whatever" isn't a common term people outside the Wiki would really think to search, and how specific we'd need to get a la "truck" versus "longnose truck" versus "Peterbilt 379 truck". Hard to call, in my opinion.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 23:37, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
::The bullet points hit me a little weird at first but I could get used to them, I think it's a neat idea. And I can see the inclusion of alt modes in toy pages as something useful, though no doubt a lot of pages would have to be slightly rearranged to make room for them. Regardless, I'd gladly give a hand with some of the editing if either one gets approved. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 09:46, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
::: RE: altmodes on toyline pages... As far as "arguments" go, you get those ''anyway''. I think for these pages we can afford a bit of looseness ("red Lamborghini" for 1984 Sideswipe since there's a lot of sports cars (and two Lambos) in that line/assortment, "blue sports car" for Cyb Hot Shot since there are fewer "sports cars" in that line), giving enough for a quick ID'ing. Spacing... yeah, this will stretch the pages vertically a bit, but like, that's generally fine if the space has ''information'' in it. Plus it will likely mean we can add another pic to the right-hand side of many sections, letting us give a few more examples. And it'll beef up the absolutely anemic sections slightly. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 01:53, 29 June 2023 (EDT)
:So, anyone got any objections to these, other than "holy hell that's a lot of manual work"? If anything, it'd also be a good excuse to go in and find out what entries are in need of some sprucing up and getting to today's standards... properly sorting the features into cohesive paragraphs, moving release dates to bullet points, trimming excess or filling out light writeups, making sure links to other toys have the proper anchors, etc. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:32, 4 July 2023 (EDT)
::The faction symbols look neat, no issue there. ''Really'' dislike the alt-mode descriptions on the toyline pages; it's a huge amount of visual noise for very little informational gain, not even to mention the actual work involved. I honestly think they would be very error-prone as a rule, or at the very least lead to some extremely tiresome debates—for example, you've labelled Soundwave/Sideways as "Cybertronian" jets, but my understanding is that they're not Cybertronians at all...? Even until pretty recently, I often find myself clicking links on toy pages only to find that they've been broken by the epidemic of "/toys" splits (and then the subsequent merges now that that's being corrected!); so far as I'm concerned, if you're consistently able to click a link on a toyline page and immediately jump to a write-up with an actual image of the toy in question, that'd be far more useful than a brief indicator of alt-mode, especially considering most readers are going to know that Starscream probably turns into "a jet". Something else this has brought to mind for me, though—for the ''Cybertron'' toyline, could be nice to have extra faction bullets for the various Cyber Key types they came with! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:53, 6 July 2023 (EDT)
::: Late to the party, but I've seen some of the faction bullets have been implemented in some character articles and I really like how they look. I think it will also help in the long run with figures that are marketed as a certain faction on Hasbro's websites or packaging, but not on the toy itself or utilized in any fiction. Like, for example: ''Studio Series'' Sentinel Prime. His packaging features a Decepticon insignia, while his instructions feature an Autobot insignia, which means the toy is marketed as both factions, even if both insignia are absent on the toy itself. The alt-mode descriptors, on the other hand, are a no from me, better to leave those kinds of specifics to the toy write ups themselves, as some toy listings in toyline articles are already pretty cluttered as it is, due to all of the characters included in some sets. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:20, 5 August 2023 (EDT)

== Alternators/Binaltech headers on toy pages ==

It feels like something from the old days of the wiki that has become outdated by our modern standards. Binaltech is not its own toyline, it's just the Takara version of Alternators, as reflected by both lines [[Transformers: Alternators|sharing the same page]]. So I propose we stop using "Alternators/Binaltech" headers on toy pages. Keep "Binaltech" on characters that ''only'' have Takara toys and standardize to just "Alternators" on all pages with either only Hasbro toys or both Hasbro and Takara toys. To use similar examples, we only have "[[Fortress Maximus (RID)#Car Robots|Car Robots]]" and "[[Lockdown (RID)#Adventure|Adventure]]" headers on Takara-only toy pages, while all other pages have "Robots in Disguise (2001)" and "Robots in Disguise (2015)" regardless of if they have Takara toys or not. There's no "Robots in Disguise/Car Robots" or "Robots in Disguise/Adventure" headers. So can we please start using the same standard to Alternators? --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 14:58, 29 June 2023 (EDT)

== Energon Universe coverage ==

With Void Rivals #2 due out next week, I think we need to start a discussion about how much coverage we give non-TF issues in the Energon Universe. This isn't like IDW where the shared universe element came years later; we're starting out on the ground floor, with Transformers part of the universe from the very first released issue. It's going to be closely involved with all the comics going forward, so I think we need to figure out if we're going to cover everything, and if not, what qualifies for coverage. For example, it sounds like Energon is going to be a recurring element in both Void Rivals and G.I. Joe. Is that alone enough to qualify, or do there need to be actual Transformers characters? I think we need to start asking these sorts of questions so we can figure out the scope of our coverage. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:39, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I'm fine with covering everything. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 23:42, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I am also in favor of covering it all, the universe has established immediately that Transformers seem to be intrinsic to it, and this way we can keep all reading to one wiki. [[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 23:46, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
::Agreed. They are presenting it as a shared, intrinsically connected universe - and yeah it's called the Energon Universe so that's very clearly transformery to us unless energon moves on from here to be a generic hasbroverse term, which we doubt. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:52, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:Yeah. I think "cover everything" is the best approach to begin with, and then if we want to discuss splitting things off at a later date we can do that. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 00:00, 11 July 2023 (EDT)
:Nothing against a "cover everything" either. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 00:53, 12 July 2023 (EDT)

==Stock image sizes==
Okay, I wanted to bring this up before going on a revertathon but... is there ANY need for HD stock imagery here? Frankly, 4000x2000 images at nearly a meg each seems like absolute overkill and just adding incrementally to server load (good god various Optimuses' toy pages are bad enough as it is, we prolly shouldn't be doing things to make that worse). We just need images big enough to be clear, we're not here to archive print-quality images. I've been sticking to a general 600px vertical with the odd 700px for bigger/more involved toys when doing pics, and like, that sure seems more than fine. Once you hit 1000px it feels real excessive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:01, 3 August 2023 (EDT)

== Video game cameos ==

{{collist|2|
*[[Kunai]]
*[[Sawtooth (G1)]]
*[[Tricerashot (G1)]]
*[[Windstrike (G1)]]
*[[Zori (G1)]]
*[[Bashbreaker (G1)]]
*[[Baru (G1)]]
*[[Bido (G1)]]
*[[Gabu (G1)]]}}

I'm not seeing the point in being persnickety about continuity families when it comes to mobile game cameos, especially when said game already has established characters from other continuity families. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:52, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:If you bothered to do some due diligence, you would know these guys are selectable for individual play, not "cameos". As long as our continuity family policy remains in place, they merit pages just as ''Prime'' Knock Out's G1 transplant does. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:56, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
::Dude, they're support units without any real role in the story (which, again, includes multiversal travelers already). That's cameo level to me. It's not comparable to Knock Out. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:04, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:::Late, but they're definitely not cameos. The COMBAT bots frequently have their own dialogue and play a part in the event storylines. They're probably ''exactly'' the same situation as Knock Out, who so far as I can tell was introduced without any fanfare as to whether he's a native to the ''Earth Wars'' universe or a dimension-hopper. The same even appears true of "Breakdown Prime"! In the past, when characters from other continuities have shown up, there's always been lots of hullabaloo in the dialogues explaining where they've come from. It's silly to make definitive claims one way or another until we successfully scrape the scripts from the last couple of years and can read everything, so under current wiki policy unless someone can produce dialogues where Windstrike says "whoa, this Earth Wars universe is crazy, not at all like my home reality!" we just have to assume they're G1 versions of those characters and give them separate pages. Personally, I would actually ''agree'' that it's really silly to have created all of these tiny stub pages for these so-called "continuity transplants", and even brought up the fact earlier on the Portal that nobody had seemed to consider it problematic when they were all just lumped in on the Aligned pages, but if this is how it's gotta be then someone who feels strongly about the split oughta commit to having the coverage on the G1 pages, not the Aligned pages, and disambiguate between them properly. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:14, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Subcategory trimming ==

Looking at some of our character categories, such as the subcats under [[:Category:Generation 1 Autobots]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Decepticons]], I'm starting to wonder if all of these are strictly necessary. I think there's merit to having categories for whole franchises, but I'm unsure whether we necessarily need to add more categories for inclusion in specific media or toylines, like "G1 cartoon Autobots" or "G1 toy Decepticons"; after a while, it starts to feel a little excessive and perhaps even counterproductive. Thoughts? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:44, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:On the one hand, with "G1" being basically Brobdingnagian in scope, I think media/toyline subcategorization is definitely important... but I'm unsold in either direction on if the Autobot/Decep split in said subcats are necessary. I ''will'' put forward the argument ''for'' the subcategorization that categories are a very helpful method of quick-checking "who's in group x", especially with something as massive as "the Marvel comics cast". Looking for obscure comic Decepticons to maybe feature in something is a lot easier when you don't have to fish through a list that also includes every obscure comic-only Autobot. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:: I"m good for keeping "Generation 1 cartoon" and "Marvel comic" categories the way we do with Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 characters (although I think that the Marvel category should be merged with the preexisting [[:Category:Regeneration One Decepticons]] into a single "Marvel Comics continuity" category). "Generation 1 toy" seems... less necessary to me. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:31, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
::: The [[:Category:Generation 1 Seekers]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Aerialbots]] categories are good and useful categories to me, as the subgroup is the main thing, in these cases (IMO), and the subgroups have been divided on the franchise/continuity-family level.--[[User:Karanseraph|Karanseraph]] ([[User talk:Karanseraph|talk]]) 12:25, 25 August 2023 (EDT)
I would definitely dump the Regeneration One categories. It's just a miniseries, and not a very impactful one at that. Plus, 99% of those characters are already in Marvel G1 anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:30, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Wiki Format ==

I have a question regarding the set-up of this site. It is one of the only ones I've seen not using fandom and has a nice set up. The Gundam fandom users are talking about maybe moving off of fandom, and this site has shown promising to be a potential new site if a similar format can be created but changed to be Gundam style. I know of someone who "runs" the wiki, and would like to possibly get in contact with them to look at this and see if its plausible replacement for that. If anyone can do something like that, or if it's not possible to use this format like that, then please lmk, thnx! (PS: I'm on the discord, GrootimusPrime, if that would be easier contact as that's also how I'll probably get the Gundam wiki spokesperson to see.) [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 11:29, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
:The skin we use is just one of the standard skins that comes with Mediawiki (Monobook) with some styling applied. If they have someone who is expert at tweaking stylesheets, they should be fine doing that, though there are other standard skins they could also look at tweaking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:05, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
::Alright thanks, Ill look into that and relay to Iserlohn. Thanks! [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]])
What hosting service is used? While I'm not quite sure of preferences of admin, I'm just looking into cheaper hosts that can run this wiki to be good and useable for all editors, as they span most of the world, centering around Asia and America. (PS. If anyone knows Fandom gund-wiki users, please keep this on the low-down, we are attempting to keep this relatively low-key as there has been problems between ours and their teams. Thanks.) [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:55, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

== Include these? ==

I feel like on fiction related pages, we should include major event sections (so readers don't have to spend 10h scouring the page for info). And maybe we also should indicate some characters' debut (and also indicate when it is the first time a char appears on that continuity, like hot rod debuting in the movie, then state which ep he debuted in the show proper, and so on so forth).[[User:Poliwag06|Poliwag06]] ([[User talk:Poliwag06|talk]]) 19:26, 7 September 2023 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2023-09-11T16:32:49Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Wiki Format */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. For less wide-reaching subjects, either use articles' individual talk pages or [https://discord.gg/tfwiki our Discord server].

Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Site Logo revamp ==

Up until now, our rotating logo on the main page tends to have a batch of logos pointing to pages from the most recent franchises and series, plus a few from older franchises that we forgot or didn't bother to remove. I'd like to rework this system a bit to have a more even balance franchise-wise. I think we should have one character for every franchise that has had a cartoon or movie (including the JG1 shows), plus one from each of the major English-language comic runs (Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 at the bare minimum). This would be a good way to demonstrate the breadth of the franchise scope of the wiki, and help drive new readers towards legacy content. (Of course, we'd still have a few extra banners based on whatever is currently running for the "Hey, I know that guy!" factor. Would love to get some thoughts on this, and potentially character suggestions for each franchise. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:59, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:I think this is a great idea! Though, I'm unsure on which characters from each show would be good to use. Like, would we go most popular/memorable characters or just some really random left field obscurities like G1 Skids who appeared in only two episodes of ''The Transformers'', just to get some more eyes on character articles from franchises newer fans may not be fully aware of? Also, would Japanese-exclusive shows include ''Go!'', ''Q-Transformers'' and ''Robotmasters''? If so, maybe even an image from ''Portal'' (the Russian show) would be worthwhile too. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:47, 18 December 2021 (EST)
::Obscure/minor stuff risks just being the GO! Boxes again, and we already have those. For the big logo, best to go with majorish characters from majorish media. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 07:19, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:This sounds like a great idea. We could break it down like this:
G1 Seasons 1 and 2 - Optimus Prime,
TFTM/G1 Seasons 3 and 4 - Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime,
G1 Marvel - Ratchet,
Headmasters - Fort Max,
Masterforce - Minerva,
Victory - Star Saber,
Idk if we would do Zone or any of the Japanese G1 stories that came after,
Beast Wars - Megatron,
Beast Wars II - Lio Convoy,
Beast Wars Neo - Magmatron,
RID/Car Robots - Side Burn,
I've never read Dreamwave so I don't know a good character that represents it,
Unicron Trilogy - Hot Shot,
IDW could be broken into a few character reps because of how long it went on,
IDW Furman Era - IDW Bumblebee,
IDW Post Furman - IDW Galvatron,
IDW MTMTE/LL - Nautica,
IDW RID/OP - IDW Optimus Prime,
Animated - Bulkhead,
Movies - Bumblebee,
WFC Games - Bruticus,
Prime - Starscream,
RID15 - Strongarm,
Cyberverse - Windblade,
WFC Trilogy - G1 Megatron,
And then we can have a few slots open for characters from the latest shows/movies. This list would give new readers an idea on how big the franchise truly is and how diverse the characters are. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Certainly if anyone's gonna represent CR/RiD'01, it's gonna be Sky-Byte, the breakout star of the show, and not Side Burn, the Autobot womanizer. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:26, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Funilly enough I meant to put him there lol. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 20:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Dreamwave, I'd pick War Within Grimlock. Certainly Shockwave should be part of 2005 IDW since he's responsible for the whole sha-bang.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] ([[User talk:MistaTee|talk]]) 18:40, 5 January 2022 (EST)

== Splitting Cloud characters ==

So now we have some sorta adequate translations, I'm being increasingly convinced that merging them just on the basis of AVP was a mistake and that the Cloud characters should be split out for simplicity and ease of explanation. Notably, the central conceit is far more similar to TransTech than G1—and more different to G1 than Cyberverse, for instance. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:44, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I was against it then and I'm against it now. They're nothing like the TransTech; they are practically nigh identical to the G1 guys, there's a war going on in their universe, and the "central conceit" of them being multiversal guardians is more akin to Alternity than it is to TransTech, who for the majority of their fiction were at most passive observers. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I am declining to weigh in personally until I finish first pass translations but please at least pretend to look over the translated material before repeating the same arguments. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:19, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::I have looked over it. Nothing is convincing me that it's all that separate from G1 stuff. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 12:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::"War going on" describes most of Transformer fiction. What makes Cyberverse "not G1", but Cloud G1, other than convenience for us editors? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:02, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::: As far as I can tell, there is no basic divergence, aside from Grimlock's origins, from the Cloud characters to the G1 counterparts. I could point to a fair few examples on the side of Cyberverse that rank higher than that (Grimlock's presenations, the origins of the Quintessons and Sharkticons, Skywarp, Acid Storm, etc etc.) [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:23, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::We can be here all day debating over character minutiae, but the point is that Cyberverse ultimately doesn't diverge that much from G1 in its general premise as opposed to Cloud. G1 is bloated enough as it is; it doesn't hurt to take out the one thing that doesn't really fit in and make it its own thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::: Well that just comes right back to my question: what actually makes Cloud World's core conceit any different from G1 beyond the fact that they have technology that allows them dimensional travel? Because if it is just that, I simply do not believe that is enough to justify a split for characters who are almost all made to look like and have the same personality as the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:51, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I agree for the sake of wiki presentation. *Cloud* is more like *TransTech* than it is like *Alternity*. *Cloud* characters got to travel to both the G1 and MD worlds as equally separate destinations. TakaraTomy used the *Generations War for Cybertron* moulds as the *United* series, which is G1 and not Aligned by our classification. *Cloud* recycling unused *Generations Fall of Cybertron* toys in a non-Aligned setting strikes me as more evidence that we can allow *Cloud* to live on its own rather than as another G1 setting. And *Cloud* was chosen by e-HOBBY over the competing proposal *Prime Shattered Glass* which would also have been on separate wiki pages despite employing purely redeco mould choiceis. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:08, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I'm not convinced by the idea that them saying "G1 World" is an indicator of separateness when there is also designations for "BW Spacetime" and "MF Spacetime." Brawn is depicted as practically identical in appearance to G1 Brawn before being upgraded. As for the Prime Shattered Glass choice, I think it's pretty obvious why that would be completely separate from this particular issue. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:25, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::The only reason Brawn is shown as the G1 body is if you take consideration that all Cloud members are drawn according to the latest toy or model available... he got no real toy before that, the only options were either G1 Sunbow, G1 toy or the tiny Universe 2.0 Legends. Now if you remove their appearance and focus on the story, Cloud is still more akin to Transtech than Alternity, Deadlock for example even got to visit the Legends World, a Aligned world (possibly the Adventure toyline) and the Ehobby spin-off dimension (now called Precursor World) -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 17:55, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::Yes, I am aware of how Cloud repurposings work. Nothing prevents one G1 universe from visiting another. And aside from that, Japan has had barely any non-JG1 cartoon related G1 fiction; of course Cloud World, which isn't directly JG1 related, would be indicated as different; that doesn't mean that it's not able to be categorized as G1. If it were an American storyline, where we have always had multiple G1 storylines, I feel that this would not nearly be as much of a point of contention. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I'm in favor of splitting Cloud from G1. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 19:32, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I haven't read any of the Cloud fiction myself, but I know that if our translation team collectively agrees on something based on the material available, then that's more than enough convincing for me to agree with them also. In other words, I agree with a split. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:52, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I'd vastly prefer if we could get someone like McFeely to weigh in on this. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:56, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::i'm in favour of the split. The cloud people have enough characteristics to distonguist them from theur jg1 counterpatts.--[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 20:14, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::Alright, seriously, what characteristics are there actually to distinguish them from G1? Because nobody has been able to give me a concrete example so far. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::::dinobot, heavy usage of aligned designs, hellwarp --[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 21:36, 28 December 2021 (EST)
Looks like Escargon is the only voice against the split thus far. Still, I suggest the discussion should remain open longer than usual, out of courtesy for people not checking the wiki as regularly given the holiday season. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:47, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:As the translations are still ongoing, I think the most we can suggest at this time is a note regarding its a classification as a Primax setting by AVP. As more information comes to light I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it was a decision made on shaky logic. Unlike the Alternity there doesn't seem to be any evidence of these guys being derived in-universe from G1 guys. And as fiction, it's about a bunch of super advanced parallel universe monitor guys who regularly travel to other universes. If it's literally just "the cast is mostly recolours of toys with G1 fiction" then maybe we need to start talking about listing the War for Cybertron games as G1 too. [[User:Star Spangled Sam|Star Spangled Sam]] ([[User talk:Star Spangled Sam|talk]]) 01:44, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::What exactly is super-advanced about them beyond SARA, who, as far as I can tell, is a gift from some being and not even their own creation? Because otherwise, they seem to be basic Transformers. Not a single person has been able to tell me that so far, and I'd be far more willing to listen if someone would just spell out what exactly makes them so distinct that means they can't be G1. It's not about in-universe stuff, because for all intents and purposes, the characters themselves are nigh-identical to the Generation 1 characters; you look at Cloud Megatron or Cloud Rodimus and it is obvious that, irregardless of whatever the fiction might say, they are being sold as new versions of the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 04:29, 29 December 2021 (EST)
:::By the same logic, then why not put the FOC and WFC games under the G1 banner since it heavly takes inspirations from it, same settings (war on cybertron, the resources are becoming low, escaping to another world), closest designs to G1.. hell they were more marketed towards G1 than the Movies and Prime in mind (let's face it.. that's what Hasbro always does).. but the further Hasbro tied them to Aligned and they became their own thing.. Cloud is about that, maybe marketed as G1 at first but they became their own thing at the end -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 13:20, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::::The WFC games are their own case that, despite what you say, were always clearly a part of Hasbro's ideas for the Aligned continuity, which is something that I'm not going to bother going into here. Nothing about Cloud registers to me as being somehow so separate that it requires us splitting off things into their own pages. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:24, 29 December 2021 (EST)
Bumping for more opinions. If there's no overall opposition to it by Friday or so, I'll start splitting. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:07, 4 January 2022 (EST)
:The Cloud fiction prominently features the Cloud characters interacting with their own G1 counterparts. If nothing else, it should be split on same basis as [[Galvatron II]]. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:50, 4 January 2022 (EST)
::We've seen that with other fiction. I'm not sure why it would justify them having their whole separate pages (Galvatron II is a unique case). If that's what it takes though to not go through some inane total split, though, then fine, whatever. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:If there is to be movement on this in the immediate future I suppose I should go ahead and weigh in. As the one doing the translation I broadly agree with Riptide. While I am unmoved by philosophical discussions on what constitutes "G1-ness" or "Transtech-ness," I believe it is important to return to our guiding principle of the end user experience. Given the already convoluted nature of the material as well as the cast's consistent interaction with both various Generation 1 continuities in general and their own incarnations in specific, I believe it will be in the best interests of intelligibility for the reader to split out Cloud from Generation 1. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:25, 5 January 2022 (EST)

We are not going to pretend that these are completely separate from the Generation 1 characters. Put up a suite or a "see [X] article for more information" because it is completely ridiculous to pretend that Cloud is it's own little continuity. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:38, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I disagree. Cloud should be split off entirely. So let's have an official vote and resolve this. I say '''Split'''. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:28, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::The articles have already been split. You'll forgive me if I don't show confidence in the decision from people who blew me off when I pointed out their original reason for splitting was incorrect (that supposedly the Almanac had come out before Cloud was truly explained, but in fact it had come after almost all of it had been published). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:35, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::This discussion has been open for twelve days. An unofficial tally shows at least 7-to-1 in favor of splitting. No one else has openly agreed with your position. Given that, and that Saix announced days in advance he would start splitting if there was no further discussion, it wasn't unreasonable for him to begin. But maybe there's a different split of opinions on the Discord or wherever, so it's certainly appropriate to ask for an official vote. Beyond that...the decision is just not up to you alone. The point of democracy is for all voices to be heard, not to leave every voice feeling satisfied with the outcome. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:08, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::I have no idea what's going on in the Discord server; I'm barred from it. I certainly hope there's not more discussion going on over there, because I was told that there would be a push to have these sorts of big discussions to be on the wiki. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:42, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::With all due respect: You need to stop putting so much emphasis on the in-universe designation, which AVP itself pointed out was ultimately arbitrary. I understand that AVP and the Almanacs are important to you, but Jim is not infallible, and while I'm sure he had good reasons for calling it "Primax" that's ultimately just ''his opinion''. Cloud being "its own thing" isn't some essential property; it's a matter of how to organise the wiki in order to make the fiction clear. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I also vote '''Split''' if only because of how better translations now has pointed out various past errors/assumptions/presumptions that needed correcting, and thus updating is needed so as to make things easier to categorize and organize here. Any wiki really worth their salt and wanting to do proper service to their respective franchises' fandoms would do the same. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 14:43, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::I ''still'' haven't got an answer for what makes Cloud so different that makes it ''need'' to be split. If there were a crossover between say, Marvel and Sunbow, nobody in their right mind we should completely separate, say, Huffer from Huffer. I'm willing to admit that I might just be missing something, but nothing in the stories themselves, as far as I can see, suggests it, beyond the aforementioned Cloud World classification, which for me is not enough of a justification. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:33, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::Neither Marvel nor Sunbow consists primarily of crossovers with another G1 continuity. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:20, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::If that's the main avenue of justification then frankly I don't think I'm ever going to agree with that line of reasoning, but I can clearly see I'm outvoted on this. I wish there would have been more people asked before the split was done, though, because I can see that this could very easily end up being another whole "retitling things to FSRLF" situation. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:00, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::We functionally split out Marvel and Sunbow versions for a lot of characters anyway. We're at the point where we draw lines based on how easy/hard it is for the information to be conveyed, not whether it's G1 enough or not. We think Cloud, as its own fullblown storyline/premise, falls on the side of "it's easier to read and parse it if they get their own shebang" instead of burying them in overlong G1 articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:11, 8 January 2022 (EST)

I'm not gonna argue further on this because I recognize it's a losing battle, but I think that the line of thought of "this one bit of media shouldn't be kept in an article because it won't get out there otherwise" sets a bad precedent that could easily be misused in the future. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:39, 8 January 2022 (EST)

Should the Cloud toys also be removed from the G1 character's pages? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 09:21, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:Yeah no, It vould be too convoluted, example look at the redirections [[Transformers_Cloud#Toys|there]]... where should each toy be redirected?? + the fiction regarding said toys has their own page now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 10:58, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::...What on earth are you talking about? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:16, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::Srry I misread his question.. I thought he meant "added" not "removed" from the G1 pages...
:Not entirely certain what you're asking, but the eight toys in the Cloud toyline (plus Deadlock) have already been moved to the Cloud pages in conjunction with the fiction, as they solely represent Cloud characters. The remaining Cloud characters repurpose existing toys. The writeups for those toys remain on the original pages with duplicates on the repurpose pages, as is standard practice. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:54, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::I mean, for example, [[Blaster_(G1)/toys#Generations|G1 Blaster's toy page]] has FOC Blaster on it, due to FOC Blaster being repurposed as Cloud Blaster. Should that repurposing be removed from G1 Blaster's page, since Cloud Blaster isn't considered to be G1 Blaster anymore? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:34, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::I believe yeah, the splitting between G1 and Cloud was recent (done last month) so there's still leftover traces on the wiki, if you can take your time to remove them why not -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 16:44, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::::Ok, good. I just wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 17:13, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::::Oh! Yes those should go, good eye! -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 10:52, 18 February 2022 (EST)

==Split Movie Character Toy lists?==
Just as what happened with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Megatron (G1)/toys]], I suggest we split certain Movie toy pages such as [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys]] as both pages have become excessively bloated. I suggest we separate them by having the original Bay film toylines (07, ROFT, DOTM, AOE, TLK, and any pre SS sub lines) have their own page and starting a new one that Contains SS, BB, and the upcoming ROTB toylines, alongside any future movie toylines until the new page itself becomes heavily bloated [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Sorry for being this late but given that ROTB toys are apparently coming this spring, I suggest you split like one part contains all 5 movies while the other starts with SS and BB until now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 15:26, 22 January 2022 (EST)

== Multi-part comic stories ==

For old Marvel UK multi-part stories like [[Target: 2006]] or [[Time Wars]], we put the whole thing under a single article, but for modern-day ones like each storyline in [[Transformers (2019 comic)]] we have a separate article for each issue. Is there a good reason for the discrepancy, or are the old ones just an artefact of a time in the wiki's history that didn't follow our current standards? --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 09:36, 22 January 2022 (EST)
:The thing with that is that it's a result of how the UK comic was written; there'd be about 8 or so pages per issue, meaning that we'd have a lot of little articles that are easier just grouped together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:16, 22 January 2022 (EST)
::Makes sense, although that's essentially what we have for [[The Transformers: Autocracy]] et al., which are also 8 pages per issue. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 15:38, 23 January 2022 (EST)
:::The difference with Autocracy lies mostly in that pretty much all of those issues have a beginning and end, and also have different titles. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:47, 23 January 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I always thought our headings on the Marvel UK story pages ''were'' the issue titles. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 01:21, 24 January 2022 (EST)

== Composite characters and page transclusion ==

This is something I've had the idea about for a while, but I've finally had a look at how the markup for it works and have come up with a proposal. The pages for [[Greatshot]] and [[Sixshot (G1)]] contain an entirely duplicated section set around the ''Victory'' cartoon owing to a retcon that occurred in the much later Legends manga. This is not an ideal solution because, among other reasons, any edits to Greatshot's cartoon section necessitates making the same edit to Sixshot's section.

Over in my sandbox, I've whipped up the page [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test]], containing only the events that happened to both Greatshot and the retconned Sixshot. By inserting <nowiki>{{:User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test}}</nowiki> into the relevant parts of Greatshot and Sixshot's pages (also sandboxed [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot|here]] and [[User:TheLastGherkin/Sixshot|here]]), the same information is automatically transcluded. And clicking "Edit" on, for example, the Legends manga section on Sixshot's page automatically redirects the user to editing that portion of Greatshot-test, thus updating all three pages at once.

If we go forward with this, I can see it being used for other characters in similar situations, like BWU [[Wolfang (Maximal)#Beast Wars: Uprising|Wolfang]], or Unite Warriors [[Roller (IDW)#Unite Warriors|Roller]], or putting the lion's share (pun intended) of [[Victory Leo]]'s fictional appearances back onto Victory Leo's page. With refinements, like say a <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> explanation for what each subpage is for the layperson ("This page covers the events of the Japanese Generation 1 continuity, where Greatshot and Sixshot are the same individual...") and maybe a [[:Category:Transcluded pages]], I could see this really working, and it could probably be bent into shape for repurposed toys as well. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 12:48, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:If we cannot avoid this sort of duplicated information entirely, this does seem like a pretty ideal solve to mitigate the constant peril of copy editing flubs maintaining multiple copies of one write-up entails. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:56, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Is there any way to get rid of the "This section is transcluded from another page. To edit it, please edit the transcluded page." notice? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:::There is! I just put that there manually while experimenting and also to make clear where the transcluded section is. In practice, since clicking "Edit" on a transcluded section takes you to the source page, a notice like that can be relegated to a commented-out note for editors who click to Edit the entire page (or a larger section). [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 16:16, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I thought it was automatic software stuff. Whoops, never mind. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:22, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Also, this works for fiction, but I see it running into issues when it comes to toys. (Thinking of Sixshot/Greatshot, Sixshot always gets toys first with Greatshot as the retool later in the same line.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:14, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:I've made some tweaks to my sandboxes, including standardising the transcluded page. Are there any objections before I start implementing this (in fiction sections)? [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 07:10, 12 February 2022 (EST)
::I sense that there could be an issue in the future where, for whatever reason, these sorts of characters diverge back into separate ones, whether it be through alternate continuities or whatever. Also, in the case of Greatshot, I feel like at the very beginning of his entry, there has to be something different to set up the Sixshot retcon, and just having the same opening text doesn't do that. 08:57, 12 February 2022 (EST)
:::His toy bio that mentions Sixshot as a separate person could go there. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:21, 16 February 2022 (EST)
:This could also be applied to Primus and Vector Sigma for their 3H comics sections since they are one and the same in that continuity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 26 February 2022 (EST)

== What makes a franchise? Or, does "Precursor World" exist? ==

So, browsing around the wiki, as one does, and came across this: [[Precursor World continuity|Precursor World (franchise)]]

Now, I'm not as well-versed in the Legends + Selects comics, so maybe this is incorrect, but to the best of my understanding, the branding "Precursor World" doesn't exist — this story was told across Generations Selects and Legends, and no toy or story was ever released branded as "Precursor World". It doesn't seem like the name even existed until pretty recently.

This...isn't a franchise, right? It's a long-running story told across various medium, but it's not a franchise, and calling it such implies something that isn't true.

Particularly, the idea that there is a "toyline" seems a bit of a stretch. There are only three listed "official" toys, but none of them were released under the "Precursor World" branding (which near as I can tell does not exist) and the list of "repurposings" seems almost entirely just "this toy/characters showed up in this story" which doesn't seem like anything's been repurposed to me. The IDW comics used a bunch of existing/prior toys, but that doesn't create a toyline of that comic series.

Am I off base here? --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:16, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:Okay there's a lot to unpack here but to begin with every single one of those toys is being repurposed as a separate object/character in a separate setting a la, for example, [[Green Tender Convoy]] and the [[Matrix Buster|Red Matrix]]. Most of the unnamed crowdfillers are minimized to footnotes on existing articles to avoid generating a bazillion stubs. The closest analogue I can give you is the [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|toyline]] for the original ''Timelines'' iteration of Shattered Glass. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:35, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I'll grant that those indeed seem to be repurposings, but the vast majority of toys on this list merely link to the toy entry for the toy on the regular character's page. I don't think having a list of members of these groups is bad (it's good!) but I don't think this is a toyline. Again, crucially, Shattered Glass has a brand, with the official toys released under that brand, whereas precursor world does not. IDW repurposed WfC/FoC/aligned toys as G1 characters, but this didn't create a virtual toyline associated with that comic. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:46, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:::Arguably Shattered Glass toys weren't really released under their own brand either until the recent Hasbro Pulse stuff, until then the figures were all just released under the ''Timelines'' banner or whatever else Fun Pub used at the time - the idea of a singular "Shattered Glass toyline" was just as much of a constructed idea until like a year ago. I can't say "franchise" and "toyline" ''aren't'' slightly more non-literal labels than usual in this context, but I do think there's value in having the info collated like this, and I can't think of ''better'' labels that aren't something stupid like "(meta franchise)". [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:57, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::::To be honest, I'm inclined to agree re: Shattered Glass, and would not be opposed to restructuring the toyline page to delineate between the "Shatted Glass Collection" and "Shattered Glass toys released via Timelines" or something. Shattered Glass does, however, have a leg up on Precursor World given that every official SG toy was branded as "Shattered Glass" in some way, though perhaps not as a "franchise". The box set is called Shattered Glass, and every official toy was called "Shattered Glass". There's some nuance there, of course, as arguably those are part of the character's names ala "Prime Universe Bulkhead" is still a Legacy toy, not a Prime toy, but I'd be happy to have a debate around the best way to frame Shattered Glass stuff given those discrepancies. Allll that said, Shattered Glass is today a franchise, but there have been zero anythings released with Precursor World branding or labeling. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 13:06, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I don't think the page should be removed or even severely modified, but I do think the terminology is flawed. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 16:02, 3 March 2022 (EST)
Precursor World is definitely not a "franchise" and should not have that label. The model to look at here is the [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] article, which gives an overview of the thing, lists it's stories and toys, but does not use the "franchise" label, and doesn't ''need'' to use it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 15:07, 3 March 2022 (EST)

Yeah, no, this is not a "franchise", and the page should not be labeled as such. It is a ''setting''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:I like the solution that AzimuthAcolyte gave on Discord: move "Precursor World (franchise)" to "Precursor World continuity" (with all uses of the word "franchise" changed to "continuity") and "Precursor World (toyline)" to "List of Precursor World toys". Simple and elegant. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:55, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Seconded.[[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:::That seems reasonable to me. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::::I'm for that. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::That's fair. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:59, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Works for me, somewhat obviously! If there are no major objections over the next day or two I'll get those moved over. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:48, 4 March 2022 (EST)
::Ohhh, That works -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 18:19, 4 March 2022 (EST)
Alrighty as it's been a day or so with no objections I am proceeding with the moves away from (franchise) and (toyline). --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:06, 5 March 2022 (EST)

== Episode Order ==
It's come to my attention that all cartoons have been listed in production order '''except''' Beast Wars, RID01, RB, and RBA. While I understand production order is not available for the latter two I suggest we change the first two for consistency's sake - Unless I'm wrong and they are ''not'' all in production order. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:48, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:We're not touching Beast Wars. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
::Beast Wars and RiD'01 not being in production order are accepted exceptions to the norm. We leave them as they are for reasons specific to each. But as for RB and RBA, we do have an idea of the production orders for each, but we instead use a weird mixture of production order and airing order that is consistent with no other series we cover. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 13:53, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:OK quick correction to myself, turns out that it's all supposed to be chronological order; That just happens to be production order for everything but those four. Sorry! [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 14:09, 16 March 2022 (EDT)

==Help with statues / figurines==
I wrote up many of the [[Super7#Transformers ULTIMATES!|ULTIMATES!]] entries, simply because no one else had. I don't actually care about that sort of merch and it ended up being me paraphrasing from press releases and copying their pics. Just today I learned there are 3 waves of TF [[Minimates]] that have no coverage here at all. It definitely seems like a lot of high-end statues are falling through the cracks as well. Is there someone who is willing to make that stuff more of a project? If not, could we perhaps put out a call for submissions on our Twitter feed? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:47, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I fear this is just... going to continue to be an Issue. The wiki is a labor of love, and the brand is at a point where there's a lot of stuff out there... well, that a lot of people probably aren't gonna love. Hasbro's moichandized the everloving HELL out of TF over the years, with more and more niche "G1" stuff that seemingly would never appeal to people for whom G1 is the big center of their fandom. I mean I just found some Micro Figures merch at a Big Lots, I've never seen these before, and I don't know offhand if they're on the wiki. They're kind of a nothing. It's hard to keep up. Same for stuff like phone games.<br>
:I don't know if there's an actual solution. ''Someone'' certainly needs to step up, but I kinda got my plate overflowing with my own pet (ha ha) niche chunk of TF history to exhaustively document, never mind dealing with stuff I am almost aggressively disinterested in. (Seriously what little Minimates experience I have left me with a worse impression of them than I already had from their hideous aesthetic alone.) Asking Twitter for people more well-versed in this stuff might could help for phone games, but... IS there anyone into Minimates as a whole Brand and not just in a "I get the licenses I like" sense to fill in gaps? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:20, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::Once I had composed the thought "Hey, it's bad that there are a lot of Minimates out with us not covering them at all," it was too late, and I just had to burn 40 minutes on some cut-and-paste writups for the entire series. That's one "solution," I guess, but even ''my'' obsessive-compulsiveness can only go so far. Editing this site really should not feel like a job... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:18, 22 March 2022 (EDT)

==Implementing galleries==
I propose making galleries on character pages a wiki standard. The current mainpic + show screenshots format doesn't cover images like character models (Unless used as a mainpic), concept art, appearances in posters or toy murals, comic book covers, etc.
Other wikis have successfully implemented galleries, I think the Hololive Wiki galleries in particular work well as an example https://hololive.wiki/wiki/Tokino_Sora#Media.
This gallery header covers character models and has suites for concept art and even character uses in collaborative merch.[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:27, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Seconded. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:30, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I would say some version of this concept for a section has merit, if nothing else as a solve for major characters with several prominent character models, perhaps as a fairly unobtrusive method of documenting alt modes, etc etc. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:38, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::I'm for this. As a good example, the BotBots characters all look to have been radically redesigned for the show. By default the current standard is to keep the original stock art look will appear as the mainpic each page. Having a gallery option would be a good way to show both versions. [[User:ParadoxFactor|ParadoxFactor]] ([[User talk:ParadoxFactor|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Oppose. There is no reason for these to take up space on the character pages. Would not oppose separate "gallery" pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:57, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::If we are open to workshopping implementation I do agree a separate "gallery page" in the style we already use for more conceptual articles here and there would probably be cleaner. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 14:06, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I love the gallery idea. There's a question of how much to include, and the exact implementation details of how to portion out overflow if there's too many images. It's a shame there isn't some way to generate them automatically just by tagging images with the characters they depict. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::A separate page seems like it would be overkill for someone like [[Flamewar (G1)|Flamewar]], who would only take a few images to cover appearances not already covered by fiction section images. I assume if a small gallery was to be used on a character's page, it would be near the bottom at any rate? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:22, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Yes, at the bottom would be ideal, no different from any of the galleries on our artist pages. IMO, separate gallery pages should only be used in instances where the number of images can't be comfortably fit onto one or two lines. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:33, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::I agree with Cyberlink. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:29, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Fair; Using gallery sections for those with few images and gallery pages for those with many images might make sense. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 15:46, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::See [[Megatron (G1)/gallery|G1 Megatron]] and [[Megatron (BW)/gallery|BW Megatron]] for examples of characters with enough images to justify separate gallery pages. [[Rhinox (BW)/gallery|BW Rhinox]], as it is now, is probably right on the line between "split it off" and "stick it at the bottom of the page". -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
I think choosing between a header at the bottom or a suite depending on image amount is a good solution instead of sticking to just one method.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:29, 22 March 2022 (EDT)
:Yeah, I think that would be good, as has been pointed out earlier. I do have to ask - because sometimes the artistic difference between characters in comics is slight with details only a little different in shape or kibble - would those fall under gallery stuff? Because they're effectively different per artist interpretation. I would be inclined to say yes, because effectively a different artist's rendition is shown usually of the same character without having reformatted or taken up armor or so forth. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 10:56AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I am very much on board with this idea. Having a gallery section or page depending on the character would be great, especially for characters like Flamewar who have a extremely prominent new design that we can't use as a main pic and for characters who have tons of designs, especially in the case of IDW where some characters change bodies every Tuesday. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:35 AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I think artistic liberty vs. new design would have to be on a case by case basis. Burcham's art of the BW cast wouldn't count for gallery purposes, in my opinion. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:08, 27 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I think it would be cool to have art of the same designs in different artstyles, but I agree it should probably be on case by case basis. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 6:17 PM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I currently have a sandbox to test galleries using Tigatron https://tfwiki.net/wiki/User:MrRald/sandbox/Tigatron#Gallery. I'd appreciate any feedback on things to add or change! [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 23:44, 1 April 2022 (EDT)
::: I like what you have so far, I think we should maybe add a few more versions of Tigatron, like his different comic appearances and such. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]])

: Now that we're actually going ahead with this... I have to ask, what are the galleries actually ''for''? When we were discussing this I was under the impression that they were going to be for "behind-the-scenes" images that wouldn't otherwise have a place on the wiki, like out-of-universe character models, character concept art, or full-body renders from stuff like guidebooks. Right now, a lot of the galleries just feel redundant, given that they're just a bunch of cartoon and comic screengrabs taken from the relevant section and removed of all context... and a lot of them, like [[Blaster (G1)/gallery]] are just completely empty. The fact that every character ''can'' have a gallery does not mean that all of them ''should'', especially if most of them are just going to be redundant or mostly empty. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:57, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
::Agreed, I feel like this is bloating the wiki and toeing over the line of our vague remit. Despite having a LOT of images, we're not an image repository. Also, a lot of these could probably be done as a single subsection of the characters' mainpage under below "Notes" of whatever rather than as separate mostly-blank-space sub-pages full of sub-headers with like two images total in them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 06:11, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I didn't think they'd be separate pages. What I was expecting was whichever of the cartoon character model, Dreamwave profile art or package art weren't being used for the mainpic, plus behind-the-scenes stuff, plus maybe extra bits from artbooks, covers, or sources like that. Stuff that can't just be slotted into a fiction writeup—and I don't mean "comic crops we don't have room for because equivalent/better panels are already in the fiction section". —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:35, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
My intentions for the gallery pages were for users to actually do the work in uploading character models, renders, et al., not dumping whatever cartoon screencaps we already have in fiction sections. And separate pages would be on a case by case basis. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:46, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
I don't see the point, honestly. It seems like pretty much any significant body a significant enough character has will appear on the wiki at some point in a comic panel or a toy info image or a screenshot or something, somewhere. I'm not sure this is a problem that needs solving. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] ([[User talk:Hooper X|talk]]) 20:36, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

===G1 model images===
To branch off of this topic, how would we feel about using [https://www.allspark.com/forums/threads/the-most-accurately-coloured-g1-animation-models-online.301/ DM's coloured models] for the G1 cartoon model galleries? The last time I brought this topic up (on Discord), some people were against the idea, due to them being fan-colour works and not official, but a few newer developments have been made since I last brought it up.

To clarify, for those unaware of DM's works:

* All of the line art is original and unedited (unlike several of the models in ''The Ark'' books, which had been tweaked, altered and traced by Bill Forster to make them presentable for publishing).
* The models are the final ones used throughout the majority of the cartoon (in Toei-animated episodes at least). Note: several of the models in ''The Ark'' books we have also come to discover were unfinalized ones, due to the internet and more stuff being made public since what was originally found around 2007—not to discredit Jim and Bill's hard work in putting those books together, it's just some of what we knew then isn't entirely correct now.
* And finally, the colours (which was the big thing some people were against). Unlike the handful of fan-coloured models that were originally uploaded to the wiki in the past, which eye dropped colors straight from poor quality episode masters, DM's colours are based directly on Toei and Marvel Productions' model colour guides, colour codes, charts, colour chips found by a member of the ''Dragon Ball'' fandom (who has scanned and digitized said colour chips) and other original production materials, meaning that the colours DM has used are all coming from the ''original'' original source.

An alternative Mr. Rald had brought up on Discord is that we could possibly look at using the uncoloured model line art instead, if people feel strongly against using fan-coloured works, but I think in order to present the G1 character models fully as references, you kinda need the colours included, especially given how poor the cartoon production was, what with all the animation errors (even in Toei episodes) etc, making it hard to gather decent references for the characters, which is mostly what these galleries are for.

Also, for the record, DM has given us permission to use his colourings on the wiki.

Let me know you thoughts. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:39, 6 April 2022 (EDT)

: I personally think that we should use DM's coloured models, they are as official as coloured models are going to get, and it's not like DM just randomly picked and chose want colours to use as FOCS said. We could just have the model and the colour guide, but at that point, just have the model sheet coloured. I would however be in favour of the uncoloured models with colour guides and the sheets with the fully coloured models to cover all our bases. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:16 AM, 6 April 2022 (PDT)

== Making a page for the Unreal Engine? ==

War for Cybertron, Dark of the Moon (PS3/X360), Fall of Cybertron, and Rise of the Dark Spark all run on Unreal Engine, specifically Unreal Engine 3. Why isn't there a page for it. It could have good info on those wanting to mod those games.

Unrelated, but there's a server revival project being worked on for those games. Right now it's only on PC, and progress is slow, but should we include info for it in the pages for those games? It's not official btw, there's a Discord server for it and a few YouTube vids about it.[[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]]) 17:29, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not sure what information we could put on an Unreal Engine page that would be useful to modders. An Unreal Engine page would be general info on the engine and a list of games which use it. Diving into technical details isn't really something we do. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:52, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I think linking to {{W|Unreal Engine|Wikipedia}} should be sufficient. That's what I did when I ''unfortunately'' had to document the Funko NFTs. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:11, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I don't see what value there would be to this. Unreal warrants, at ''most'', a mention on the relevant game pages. We don't have pages for every program used to make every piece of TF media/product. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:33, 24 March 2022 (EDT)

== Category for characters with no established gender ==

So I just had this idea and decided to share it here because why not? We have categories for female characters and variable gender characters but not for characters with undetermined genders. Many BotBots for example don't have genders and I think this category could be a useful way of grouping them together. And who knows, maybe someday it could even help official creators specifically looking for genderless characters to establish a gender to them. Does anyone agree to implement this category? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:06, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:This concept has been discussed before in the past, and generally the feeling has been that this would be a bit too much like the wiki actively trying to shape canon. Don't get me wrong, creators taking advantage of characters with no official pronouns is neat and I'm all for it, but IMO the wiki shouldn't directly serve up them. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 19:26, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
::Interestingly, I can't seem to find a prior community portal discussion about this matter, though I know it has come up on the Discord server more than once, to the conclusion Jalaguy mentioned. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:35, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:::Just to clarify, I thought of "official creators using it" as a quick example in favor of the category, but now I can totally see how it sounded like trying to influence canon too much. Regardless, I'd still be down for having the category if we agreed on it being useful for any other reason. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:51, 3 April 2022 (EDT)

== Category for trans characters ==

We had a productive conversation about the no established gender thing on the wiki discord and it made me realize that there should be a transgender category for the five established trans characters that there are so far, Arcee (who has established trans characterization on two different pages), Howlback, Arcadis, Anode, and Lug. Jalaguy mentioned that this has been discussed and people thought it was a good idea but it hasn't happened, so I just thought I'd ask for go-ahead on this. I figured that transgender rather than just trans could be a good word to use for this, due to them all being people who have gender. The term trans is merely more broad and could cover different kinds of transness than that or aesthetic stuff that is similar to gender, but we have no confirmation of being there yet in canon. Thus I think transgender would be the most accurate and desirable term here, and the umbrella trans can always be tacked on later if we need to. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 5:40PM 3 April 2022 (PDT) (edited 5:48PM PDT for clarity)
:Seconded. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 5:53 PM, 3 April 2022 (PDT)
::Since there are no objections, I'll go ahead. :3 -- [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 4:19AM, 11 April 2022 (PDT)

==Streamlining disambig headers (revist)==
So I remember this conversation from last year about streamlining the disambiguation headers. I checked back on the talk page discussion (link to said discussion archive here https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive69#Streamlining_disambig_headers) to see what happened and even though there was a lot of people who liked the idea with some who did not, it did not seem like it went anywhere. I thought I'd see if anyone else would like to revisit this idea as I feel like this would streamline things more, especially for Movie and Aligned and maybe a bit of UT especially for the guys who show up in all 3 shows or those don't have other bots who are completely different sharing the same name within the trilogy. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 9:01 PM, 12 April 2022 (PDT)

== Disambig tags and suites for Masterforce paired pages ==

We need to balance out our page titles for ''Masterforce'' human + transtector character pairs. Right now we have among extant pages and tentative redlinks:

Bullhorn (G1), Cab (human), Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (human), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (robot), [something], Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (robot)

I propose either we do human gets no species tag with the robot getting a species tag as the splinter page:

Bullhorn (G1) | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

or the human does get a species tag to equally balance with the robot:

Bullhorn (G1)/human | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

This would eliminate the need to have any longer-within-parentheses tag like "Minerva (G1 robot)" which would be affected by future continuities which may not yet have happened. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:55, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
:I would prefer either the human gets the "default" continuity tag with no further disambiguation or (human)/(robot) (with needed variations for disambiguation). The slash system is ugly to me. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:59, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::I'm of the opinion that the slash option for both feels the most fair. While the human versions were the first and thus feel the most deserving of the "default" tag, the robot versions are likely to become more commonplace and relevant as newer fiction dips its toes into using more Japanese characters. On a similar note, it was decided not to give the "BW" tag to either BW Silverbolt out of fairness, so while a similar "human/robot" concept could be implemented, there is the problem with Minerva having an Animated counterpart who is also a robot, Cancer having an Animated counterpart who is also a human, there being a Kre-O Bullhorn who is also a robot, a G.I. Joe Lightfoot who is also a human, and an IDW Wilder who is also a human. "Minerva (Headmaster)" also doesn't work for the G1 robot since the human was a Headmaster too. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:29, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::The slash system may not be entirely visually pleasant, but I consider having "Minerva (G1 robot)" in parentheses worse. In my proposal, all transtector characters would be unified symmetrically as "(robot)". [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:47, 24 April 2022 (EDT)

Here are three proposals to unify the namespaces:

Possibility 1: humans get nothing and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1), Cab, Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai, Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (G1), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 2: both humans and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1)/human, Cab/human, Cancer (G1)/human, Clouder/human, Ginrai/human, Shūta Gō/human, Lightfoot (G1)/human, Minerva (G1)/human, Ranger/human, Road King/human, Wilder (G1)/human

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 3: both humans and robots get parentheses

Bullhorn (G1 human), Cab (human), Cancer (G1 human), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1 human), Minerva (G1 human), Ranger (human), Road King (human), Wilder (G1 human)

Bullhorn (G1 robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (G1 robot), Doubleclouder, Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1 robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (G1 robot)

Thoughts? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:12, 12 June 2022 (EDT)
:Isn't Option 1 one basically just a slightly different version of what we're already using and what you're proposing to change in the first place? Anyway, like I said above, Option 2 is the most fair between the human and robot depictions (as Option 1 feels like we're saying "The human versions are the more important versions" when it's the robot versions that are more likely to get any representation in future comic appearances), and it reduces the amount of multiple-word parentheses tags that we usually dislike using and try to avoid as best we can (which is the exact opposite of what Option 3 is proposing). Though, drop the "/human" from Clouder and Shūta Gō since their names already differ from "Doubleclouder" and "Goshooter". No need to complicate those two. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 08:45, 12 June 2022 (EDT)

==Transformers: Armada (Trading Card Collection)==
I recently discovered that Fleer published a Trading Card collection in 2003 for Transformers Armada.
I've documented everything I could find about it - including an Energon (preview) Scorponok card I got from a local retro game store.
[[Iacon0/Sandbox]]
Is it alright if I roll this out? [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 12:52, 1 May 2022 (EDT)

== WFC/FOC Reenergized Server Project info? ==

Info: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO5yzrWE9yVT56Rgxl9oqntVysxWr2k7e

Basically, it brings back the multiplayer servers for the Cybertron games, PC and PS3. Should this be talked about in the pages for those games? (ROTDS and ROTF aren't online at the moment, and 360 versions won't have support) [[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]])}
:It's not official, so no, it shouldn't. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:54, 27 June 2022 (EDT)

== Handling of "former GoBots" and "former Diaclone" characters on the wiki ==

So recently we've been seeing multiple characters that had previously been portrayed as dimension-hoppers from non-Transformers realities, but using Transformers designs — [[Bug Bite (GoBots)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]] and [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]] — appearing as "normal" Transformers ([[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]]). There's some heavy dispute over whether we should put them on the same page or split them out (e.g. "since the GoBots Bug Bite isn't ''originally'' from a G1 universe, he shouldn't go on the G1 Bug Bite page), so I thought we should probably have a centralised place to put together a comprehensive set of standards.

My take, personally, is that GoBots and Diaclone are *not* continuity families, they're their own properties that happen to cross over with Transformers, and so shouldn't be split on that basis. I feel that Burn Out and Lift-Ticket, regardless of them being portrayed as Diaclone mecha in their initial appearance, are the same basic concept as the likes of Road Rage and Tigertrack — "Transformers versions" of existing Diaclone toys and decoes. It helps that [[Spin-Out (G1)]] inherently blurs the lines, having first appeared as a "normal" Transformer ''before'' he was portrayed as a former Diaclone mech.

For the GoBots characters, I'd frankly be tempted to go even more radical and just merge ''all'' of them — put all the [[Cy-Kill (disambiguation)|Cy-Kill]] cameos on one page, like we do for other external property characters. Even in the edge cases like [[Fracture (Movie)|Fracture]], there's the precedent of her actually being intended as just ''being'' the GoBot. It feels a lot simpler to me than the headache of having Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, and Bug Bite, the ''other'' white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, having separate pages on a technicality. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:57, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Hard disagree on GoBots. By virtue of covering the Scioli comic in full, we have a GoBots continuity family to put them in. I say keep the ones who are explicitly GoBots at (GoBots), and put the ones who are Transformers (or ambiguous) at their respective continuity families. Basically, what we're doing for Bug Bite, do for all of them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:23, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:I don't agree on movie-Fracture in specific and the mass-merge of ''all'' GoBots-based characters in general. Fracture's a movie-universe character who premiered in a movie-based toyline and appeared in movie-timeline fiction. "The toy was originally conceived as" holds very little water there in light of all the rest of that. I'm not wild about merging characters from different continuity families (aka "major franchise umbrellas", the point of that divide was always less "fiction-detail based" and more "real-world Hasbro/Takara starting over based" as an organizational tool), as that leans heavily towards the Wikipedia style "just lump 'em all together" manner that... doesn't really work for our scope. There's SG Bug Bite and Crasher too, I don't think they should go under a giant singular page for the character concept.
: But ''in general'' I agree with keeping stuff like Lift-Ticket and Burn Out together because the distinction is really too nitpicky to be useful. If we get an EarthSpark Lift-Ticket who is a red Hoist-like bot, then they can go on a separate page because "new major franchise umbrella" gives a decent degree of separation. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:25, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: Oh, well, the SG GoBots are an obvious exception. If it's a "mirror universe" I feel like it should never share a page because the point is that it's the opposite.
:: That said, there are other nuances I admit I skimmed over — stuff like Wings Universe Cop-Tur, who's based on the original but is a secret genius and a good guy, I'm not sure he should be merged in. At the same time, though, splitting the Bug Bites feels disingenuous, and I'm not sure whether there's a good middle ground between "split 'em all" and "merge 'em all". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:44, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I also agree there isn't really a good middle ground. But here's the thing: If GoBots wasn't a factor and it was just G1 and Cyberverse, we wouldn't be having this conversation. At the end of the day, they're from another IP, but they're also genuine Transformers characters, and thus they should remain split like other Transformers characters. And that includes treating the genuine GoBot incarnations as separate entities. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:51, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I am, honestly, not sold either way on splitting/merging re: the "very distinctly the Tonka GoBots who originated from the Tonka GoBots franchise". I feel that there are '''''definitely''''' some bots that should not be merged with the Tonkas, by virtue of being from different continuity-families/hub-franchises (bots from the live action movies and Cyberverse, for example, should really stay separate). I'm less concerned about "in-fiction origin" because that's a clusterfuck all its own since 1984 best just left alone and we already disregard that for like Nebulans and stuff anyway, though I'd also argue that like, it should be taken into consideration the diff between an homage and an iteration (I'd argue ''Timelines'' Cop-Tur is the former and probably shouldn't be merged). But even just looking at them from the real-world staggered integration of the franchises, GoBots ARE a weird edge case (whaaat, something Scioli was involved in got weird? ''nnnoooOOOOOooooo'') and it kinda feels off to not treat them as a separate thing given their ultimate origins. But like, they are, functionally, "G1" characters as far as "how they were brought to TF" goes in the real world, and I'm not convinced that splitting out WFC Bug Bite is really a good idea or terribly helpful. So like, I dunno. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:06, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::::And then there's the ''very'' unique case of GoBots Stretch having been given a retroactive backstory of being born in the world of Transformers Animated before he crossed dimensions and became a GoBot. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:23, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::::If anything, Stretch is a Transformer pretending to be a GoBot.
:::::The criteria that keep this wiki running and readable have always had some smudgy bits, and if you stare too long at any of them pretty soon all one sees is the smudge, not the dividing line or even the story itself. Cyberverse and Prime are each ''basically'' a retelling of G1, and if they didn't have a few features we've accepted as clear dividers from "real" G1, they could have gone within G1 just as much as the IDW comics have. The divisions are necessary to keep information from being a useless, unstructured, unnavigable mess; hopefully we can draw the lines in a way that comes to require the fewest exceptions later. '''My thoughts''': when there's a Bug Bite whose origin is explicitly "I'm not a Transformer, I'm hiding among them, creatures like myself find Transformers to be nauseating uncanny valley aliens," then that's a pretty extreme division, more extreme than many others we've been holding up for years without controversy, and should stay very much separate from any other Bug Bites who are just plain ol' white car Transformers. The various Cy-Kill cameos in G1 and Armada should stay separate, just because that's how we handle other hi-and-die cameos across firm storyline borders (Animated Overlord, SG Krok). I agreed at first with splitting the Burnouts/Lift-Tickets, but if it is really causing a huge dilemma I do not object to re-merging them. Each pair exists within the G1 storytelling universe. It is not essential that we build 2 different pages for G1 universe Lift-Tickets where one of them is a Diaclone mech and the other looks just like it and comes from someplace called Diaclone. We could paper that over with a "Note" explanation. The really important part is that both the Burn-Out and Lift-Ticket cases must get the same resolution. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 05:10, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:I vote for split. I regret ever pushing for merging similar concepts around the time of ''Ask Vector Prime'' because a decade ago this wouldn't have been a question, it would have been settled with "obvious they're different characters." [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:38, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Strongly in favor of putting the Diaclones back together so long as they remain essentially G1 guys. Especially since we now have ''two nigh-identical Burn-Out pages that differ only by which sliver of fiction section they possess''. Moderately in favor of putting all the dumb Cy-Kill cameos together because, like, it's only moderately funny to split out Cy-Kill (Armada) on a technicality. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:47, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: I'm going to stay out of the Bugbite / Fracture question. I'm too involved on the creative side. I think Walky nails it about Burn-Out & Lift-Ticket. And probably the Cy-Kill cameos too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:11, 29 July 2022 (EDT)

:I have to ask: if this is a concern, why did we split out the Cloud articles a month ago. Because they also are clearly designed to look like G1 characters, and aside from some minor changes in personality and dimension hopping stuff (which also applies to these three examples here), are near-identical in fiction to their Generation 1 counterparts. What makes them different from Bug Bite, Burn Out, and Lift-Ticket? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:29, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Lead Cloud translator here. As we discussed in-depth at the time, the Cloud characters do nothing *but* dimension hop and frequently cross over with the Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity and their own G1 incarnations, rendering them nigh unintelligible when buried in A-list G1 articles. The Cloud issue was one of logistics and readability, not one on the philosophy of intrinsic "G1-ness," as I believe was said at the time. I would also argue something on the scale of Cloud is a different discussion entirely from the current topic of merging two one-paragraph articles.

::On a most practical level re-merging a thoroughly deliberated and reasonably large scale split from a couple months ago just strikes me as kind of a waste of community resources.

::For those that missed it the impetus was translating the other 80-90% of the prose and the discussion can be found [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Splitting_Cloud_characters|here]]. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

Had a brainwave about a potential way to handle the GoBots characters—as a compromise between "treating them like full Transformers characters" and "treating them like external properties", use the GoBots page as a "hub" for the others. I've mocked up a couple of sandboxes for [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Cy-Kill|Cy-Kill]] and [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Bug Bite|Bug Bite]]. Any thoughts? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:16, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:If we absolutely have to (which I still really don't agree with) I'd prefer this over full fledged merging. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:02, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:I think this is a good compromise. The important thing is that there's a clear delineation between the dimension-hopping GoBots and native Cybertronians, and I think this fits the bill. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:03, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
::I still don't like the idea of rolling in the ''Cyberverse'' Bug Bite or any other not-G1-franchise iterations on the GB character concepts (like movieverse Fracture), even in the proposed super-abridged-and-linked-to-main-article format. For the appearances within the franchise of TF-origin, sure, I think this works. Cy-Kill's multiverse of murder... ehn. I'm not really feeling strongly either way but like we got hi-then-die charcater micropages aplenty, I don't think Cy is something terribly unique to not get them. Like... we got a page for "the many deaths of Optimus Prime", I feel like "the many deaths of Cy-Kill" could probably stand to be its own thing if we REALLY wanted to hammer the point of how stupid and hack it is home. Which, come to think about it, I kinda DO. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:42, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Ah, see, Fracture was something I was specifically thinking of here — I thought it would work to accomodate both the original intent and how she's been tied back to Crasher in <s>Jim's nonsense</s> fan-targeted media while still respecting the practical reality of Fracture as her own, movieverse character. That said, I do understand your reluctance, so if the majority is against this I'm not too fussed. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:22, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, it feels like "Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee" is its own Transformers thing at this point. He may have originated as a GoBots transplant (both in real life and in fiction), but that doesn't automatically make every iteration of Bug Bite a GoBot, any more than every subsequent iteration of Lockdown or Lugnut is considered an Animated character. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:34, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::::I appreciate the work Riptide put into this and like the writing / presentation style employed... and I just still don't think it's necessary. Between disambigs and "You Look Familiar...", we already have ways to cope with characters who look alike across different continuities but who aren't the same character. Most of these transplanted GoBots are absolutely not the same characters as each other - most of the Cy-Kill cameos, Cyberverse Bug Bite. There is no need for us to build a new way to unite those cross-continuity characters when nothing unites them more than the "basic concepts" that we've kept separate on hundreds of other name / appearance reuses. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:43, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::I adore this brain blast, over and above what I proposed below (as it actually accommodates, in Cy-Kill's case, say, the ''Armada/TransTech/Animated'' cameos), and think the fact that people on both sides of this polarising issue aren't immediately opposed to it makes it strike me as a really good compromise. I still would prefer the ''Diaclone'' pages to be merged with their G1 counterparts, but whether or not it's a full merge or just the "main article" structure here, the intro phrasing proposed with Cy-Kill and Bug-Bite is perfect in my opinion. The key thing for me is that, when people look up info on Cy-Kill or Burn Out, they still find a pointer to the relevant information at the exact point they'd expect it to be, and not only that, but they can chart the entire conceptual history of the character on one page (I know the disambigs theoretically do the same, but in practise Jo's approach is much more effective). Assuming the same policy isn't applied to ''Uprising'' appearances, I still think something should be done about those—but otherwise I'd be very happy with this. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:16, 1 August 2022 (EDT)

So as I understand it, the consensus is that Diaclone characters should share a page with their G1 counterparts, and that — at least for the moment — GoBot characters should be left as-is, with White Bumblebee's G1 adventures split between the GoBot and G1 pages? Would appreciate some more input before we begin implementing this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:09, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:I still don't like the Diaclone thing but clearly I'm outvoted. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:More or less. I'm fine with rolling G1 WFC Bug Bite in with the explicitly-GoBots one in the manner test-bedded above on the same grounds as the whole "Nebulan/Cybertronian" deal with Targetmaster gun-bots we've done forever; I think the proposed format both works with the way we've handled disparate depictions between different fictions within the same franchise chunk for a very long time now while noting the important real-world issues with these transplanted characters. And it's not like the combo page would be anywhere near big enough to make a split-out necessary. But I'm willing to table that for the moment while moving ahead with rolling the Diaclones back in. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:15, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
::I agree with this completely. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:11, 3 August 2022 (EDT)
:Diaclone characters should share pages with G1 counterparts who are also canonically said to be Diaclone-y. If we ever get a "Gobots Universe Bug Bite" that would be merged too - but just "white car Bug Bite" should not. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:21, 3 August 2022 (EDT)

==Proposal re: G1 pages==
I'm not expecting anything other than a hard "no" on this from the vast majority of editors, but a few people impelled me to post it, so here goes. In particular, I think this perspective is one held by many casual readers of the wiki. As I said over on [[Talk:Burn Out (Diaclone)|Burn Out's talk page]], I think both camps feel a sense of "''obviously'' these are (not) the same character", depending on whether they're coming from a strictly in-universe perspective or not. I want to put that whole discussion into an even broader perspective. Plus, I think the list of characters below is an interesting resource in its own right.

For ages, the wiki's had it so G1 appearances of characters originating in ''Robots in Disguise''—such as [[Sky-Byte (RID)]]—just get put on those pages. My understanding is that RID was considered something of a special case, because of how it was originally conceived as an in-continuity G1 thing, and remained such in Japanese continuity. For a less-prominent example, see also ''[[Power Core Combiners]]'', which similarly lists the IDW G1 appearances of [[Smolder (PCC)]] and [[Steamhammer (PCC)]] just on those pages. Again, this was a special case, because PCC was never concretely established as being a live-action movieverse thing or a G1 thing (which makes sense, because in Hasbro's eyes at the time, that wasn't a distinction that mattered to them).

There are other areas on the wiki that take a continuity-agnostic approach; I think it's just character pages that are handled so strictly. Check out [[Noisemaze Mass Production Type Version]]—which honestly ''is'' a character page in every way that matters—for a recently-made-relevant-again example. For many bigger-picture concept pages, a similar approach is used to great effect: [[Transformation]], [[Scanning]], [[Energon]], [[Protoform]], [[Spark]], [[Living metal]], [[Mini-Con]], [[Energon mutation]], just to grab a few random examples.

To draw attention to one last point, which I predict will resonate a lot with people who already agree with me and not at all with people who don't: any and all ''Beast Wars'' or ''Beast Machines'' original characters are exempt from this issue—despite, on a real-world level, there not really being any difference between those franchises and the likes of ''Armada'' or ''Animated''. It's just the lore connection that keeps it tethered, despite the wiki treating it as its ''own'' continuity family in basically every other way that matters.

My specific proposal is this: '''for characters originating ''outside of G1'', don't keep separate G1 pages.''' Treat those characters as we do Sky-Byte, ignoring the "continuity family" divide, and put the appearances on the page where they're most relevant. Here are the salient benefits of this approach:
*Have all the information on many popular post-G1 characters in the place where most casual readers would expect to look.
*Cut the Gordian knot of the GoBots/Diaclone debate.
*Finally ditch all those (BWU) pages consisting of a single sentence and a duplicated toy entry.
*Fewer redundant toy writeups which need to be maintained in parallel.
*Far, far fewer awkward paragraphs in Notes sections talking about "continuity transplants" like those are a real thing.

Here is a list of pages which I think would be affected, sorted by continuity, just from an hour or so of searching:
*'''''Diaclone''''': [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]]
*'''''GoBots''''': [[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Crasher (G1)]], [[Cy-Kill (G1)]], [[Leader-1 (G1)]], [[Rest-Q (G1)]], [[Cop-Tur (G1)]] (!)
*'''''Armada''''': [[Hot Shot (G1)]], [[Red Alert (IDW)]], [[Demolisher (G1)]], [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Sideways (RM)]] (!), [[Treadshot (IDW)]]
*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Override (BWU)]], [[Ransack (IDW)]], [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Signal Lancer (G1)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Barricade (IDW)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Breacher (G1)]], [[Terradive (G1)]], [[Hailstorm (G1)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''Animated''''': [[Bulkhead (G1)]] (!), [[Lugnut (TF 2010)]], [[Lockdown (G1)]], [[Slipstream (G1)]] (!), [[Oil Slick (G1)]], [[Lightbright (G1)]], [[Lickety-Split (G1)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Breakdown (IDW)]], [[Airachnid (G1)]], [[Predaking (Kingdom)]], [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Rescue Bots''''': [[Medix (G1)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Scatterspike (G1)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Headlock (G1)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Transit (G1)]], [[Fracture (Cybertron)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Cyberverse''''': [[Shadow Striker (G1)]], [[Croaton (G1)]], [[Meteorfire (G1)]], [[Wildwheel (G1)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Doomwings (G1)]], [[Ursa Major (G1)]], [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': (deep breath) [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Twirl (G1)]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Sky Blast (G1)]], [[Sureshock (G1)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]
I assuredly missed some, so feel free to edit the lists above to add any other characters that would be affected by this proposal which are omitted!

Again, the vast majority of these are from ''Beast Wars Uprising'', which does have some weird lingering cases that would need further individual discussion, I think: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]]. But for the most part, I really don't see any reason why there should be all these tiny nothing pages; the only reason all those Mini-Cons were not called Mini-Cons is that in the ''Uprising'' universe, Mini-Cons are called Micromasters instead (which is the lore equivalent of "[[Barricade (G1)]] doesn't look like he's made of knives"). This is even ''less'' an irreconcilable lore detail than, for example, the organic/robotic split for Targetmasters and the like. My main goal with sharing this is to revisit the ''Uprising'' policy, because from where I'm sitting, it's resulted in exactly the same horribly inconvenient setup as the ''Diaclone'' stuff. A different, specific policy there would deal with most of the examples above, and I'd be very happy; what I've suggested is just a one-size-fits-all policy.

The weirdest victim of this stated policy, I think, is that of [[Bulkhead (G1)]], who technically originated with Animated, but whose appearances in G1 media have all drawn specifically from the ''Prime'' version. [[Slipstream (G1)]] is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: [[Slipstream (Animated)]], [[Slipstream (WFC)]] and [[Slipstream (Cyberverse)]], depending on which specific version is being depicted. That means all of the Bulkhead appearances would actually go on the ''Prime'' page. I really don't feel strongly on this detail, though. [[Cop-Tur (G1)]], as mentioned in the above discussion, is another edge case. One more strange case ''not'' listed above is that of [[Emissary (IDW)]], who homages the ''Robots in Disguise'' character but genuinely has what I'd consider to be a radically different portrayal, likely inspired as much by the ''Titans Return'' figure as anything.

To be clear, I consider G1 a special case because of how it's a catch-all label for anything that isn't Hasbro's newest ground-up reboot du jour. Like it or not, G1 usually doesn't actually mean "G1" any more, it just means ''Transformers''. I absolutely wouldn't want to start merging anything from other continuity families—that way pure madness lies. But I think this proposal has clear-cut criteria for inclusion, and would feel more consistent with other areas of existing wiki policy. To give a specific, relevant example: I don't think [[Fracture (Movie)]]'s appearances should be folded onto her merged ''GoBots'' page as some have suggested, ''but'' I do think her toy writeup should be on both without any "blah blah repurposed" hedging, and likewise for the other movieverse characters based on redecos designed by [[Joe Kyde]] contemporaneously with Classics and Universe with specific G1 characters (mostly Micromasters) in mind, some of which were even intended to be released as part of the ''Universe'' toyline. These being: [[Fracture (Movie)]], [[Big Daddy (Movie)]], [[Jolt (Movie)]], [[Grindcore (Movie)]], [[Breakaway (Movie)]], and [[Crankcase (Movie)]]. [[Mudflap (Movie)]] and [[Inferno (Movie)]] are basically the exact same but nobody ever talks about that.

Finally, I think [[Gigatron (G1)]]/[[Overlord (G1)]], [[Zaptrap]]/[[Kuwagatrer]], and [[Rotorbolt (Timelines)]]/[[Skyklik]]/[[Fumes]] should prrrooobably be revisited? In the former two cases, they exist due to niche media establishing them as separate individuals within the same continuity, but we already have precedent for dealing with that—see [[Hot Shot (G1)]]. I will concede that the Rotorbolt situation is quite funny.

I understand that the wiki is structured the way it is for good reasons, but the post-[[Evergreen]] state of the franchise is one where most writers are plucking characters from anywhere in the franchise's history without any significant changes to their depiction. The existing policy will only become more cumbersome as time goes on, in my eyes—I know for many editors, the list of pages above is a horrible scary list of Exceptions, but from where I'm sitting, they feel more like exceptions as they already stand? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 07:25, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:As someone who is basically sympathetic to your goals and not knee-jerk opposed to the idea, this:
:::"Slipstream (G1) is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: Slipstream (Animated), Slipstream (WFC) and Slipstream (Cyberverse), depending on which specific version is being depicted."
:is the worst thing I've ever read. Just, why? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I was mostly being glib, I don't have a good answer there! Just wanted to draw attention to the fact that it ''would'' be a problem with the proposal. It's also been pointed out that all of [[Lockdown (G1)|Lockdown]]'s appearances are visually based on the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' toy! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:56, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Absolutely not. There's so much here that's based on false assumptions/incorrect information that I absolutely refuse to take any of this seriously. Concepts are on the same page because they are just that: concepts. There's so much to pick apart here but because I have important things to do, I'll just say that right now, the only reason why there was ''ever'' any confusion over Power Core Combiners is because fans took behind the scenes information from the company overly literally. You actually look at the one piece of information about the toyline (the brief history provided directly by Hasbro the club) and it makes it abundantly clear that it was always meant to be movieverse; I even argued back at the time about Smoulder and Steamhammer being put on that page, and the only reason why it's still that way is because the argument just fizzled out. And once again, I really have to ask: why the hell are we pushing forward merges based on "vibes" when we still keep the Sideways' (someone who is actually said in fiction to all be the same guy) apart based on moronic, petty reasons? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:01, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Yeah, no, sorry, I think this is ultimately unhelpful and going to cause more accessibility issues than it solves. "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in" is perhaps a little confusing to new readers, but it's ultimately fairly self-consistent and easy to navigate once you understand the basic concept; "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in, with the exception of RID01 which shares its pages with G1, and any latter-day characters imported into G1, which go on the pages of their non-G1 incarnations" is very confusing and requires you to be deep in the sauce to understand which characters are and are not exceptions to the rule. I obviously think that flexibility of the system is a good thing — the RID/G1 merge, while less than ideal, is definitely the best way to solve a very unintuitive issue — but the more holes we poke in the tower the closer it comes to collapsing, if you catch my drift.
:Ultimately I think the occasional silliness of "Shadow Striker (G1) who is identical to Shadow Striker (Cyberverse)" and such is the price we pay for having any structure whatsoever. The more we make exceptions on the basis of ultimately arbitrary "well this one's SO similar" the less consistent the wiki overall gets, and the harder it gets to navigate. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Basically, this. And I don't even think that drawing the franchise-based chunk distinction is all that confusing given I think most people grok the idea that characters will pop up across sub-fictions of major multi-media franchises with varying levels of similarity to prior incarnations that are still "oh, it's a wholly separate storyline, okay". That's just how these things ''do''. (and like "multiverse" has kinda become a ''thing'' in other franchises the last several years) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 10:00, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:"We've always put RID guys appearing in G1 as still being the RID character, look at Sky Byte" - what other examples make this an "always"? There WERE two Sky Byte pages, for years. We only stopped having a Sky-Byte (G2) when its character model in the IDW G1 comic was explicitly based off the new T30 toy sculpt which wound up with like half of these separate articles duplicating each other. It was argued on that talk page for a long while. The only other case I can think of at all is Gigatron (G1), and we ''don't'' treat him like Megatron (RID).
:"We treat BW as a continuity family like Armada, it looks like we are showing favoritism to them" - we treat it like a franchise within G1, which is what it is. And we disambig by franchise, not by continuity family. "Chase (RB)", not "Chase (Aligned)" or "Chase (Prime)". This was one of the concerns I raised last year when we turned Victory, Masterforce et al into G1 because they had no separate box branding of their own, wait it turned out they did, welp whattaya gonna do, no backsies.
:'''Last but MOST''', I'd say that, yes, "lore connections" mean a great deal here, it is a feature not a bug. This is a fiction-centric wiki as surely as it's an English-centric one. We put character writeups first, above the toys. We give the toys the character names and say "his stickers", not "its stickers" and talk about how it represents the character, not about how many micrograms of silicon it contains. Separating characters because they come from different storyline eras / offerings is entirely normal and reasonable for us. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:43, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I don't disagree in general, but G1/IDW Gigatron DOES share a page with RID Megatron. [[Gigatron (G1)]] is the Overlord repurpose. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:49, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Oof. Don't know why I clearly remembered them as being separate, but in any case I regret the error. Thank you.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
There's no way to organize something like this place without something somewhere seeming arbitrary. I think the existing structure is arbitrary in the best way that makes the most sense, and trying to "mitigate" that arbitrariness just creates different arbitrariness. A lot of this "but what if we redid all this to fix this particular thing" shuffling just relitigates why we already do the stuff we already do. so, like: no --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 09:54, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

== The Discord ==

Alright, seriously, we need to talk about this. It is beyond frustrating that a greater than 50% chunk of discussion about what big edits will happen on the wiki are happening on an app that people either aren't on or (in my case) aren't allowed on. I was told it was going to just to get voices onto things but that clearly isn't how it's working out. We need either some sort of archival dump of all these posts or something because I'm tired of getting into arguments where half the responses haven't even happened on the main site itself. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:45, 17 August 2022 (EDT)
: I think you're drastically overestimating how much discussion about big edits is happening on the Discord. No actual big decisions are getting made there, and we make it a point to repeatedly remind people that discussion for major changes needs to happen here before anything gets decided. But we also can't stop anyone from simply talking about things there the same way we couldn't stop discussion on the AllSpark thread when that was a thing, and having a public log of discussions from the editing channel is both infeasible and frankly unnecessary. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 09:09, 17 August 2022 (EDT)

==Designer bylines on toy writeups==

As those of us who have been tuning in to the [[Hasbro Pulse#Livestreams|Hasbro Pulse livestreams]] have no doubt noticed, one side effect of the unprecedented transparency of the current team on the ''Generations'' franchise is that we are now pretty consistently being blasted with a fire hose of toy designer credits. While there's been a scramble to record them on the designers' pages as best we can, this rapidly growing body of information is not doing the average reader a whole lot of good sequestered away on pages that require them to already know the designers by name. As such, I've put together a template to act as a designer byline for relevant toy write-ups, largely following the formatting of our existing voice actor template.

Documentation for the prototype template which I've named '''<nowiki>{{toydesigner}}</nowiki>''' can be found here:

*[[:Template:Toydesigner]]

And a variety of examples of implementation can be found here:

*[[User:AzimuthAcolyte/Sandbox/Toy credits demo]]

Is this something we would be interested in implementing?

Questions, concerns, suggestions etc are welcome. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:33, 22 August 2022 (EDT)

:I support adding this template, it's valid information and helps put names and faces in a historically anonymous industry due to the lack of credits in the products themselves.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:38, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I think this is a great idea. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I really like it. The only possible negative is that unless a whole bunch of people are very dedicated to this (or one brave soul is ''extremely'' dedicated to it) we might end up seeing it only appear on a small handful of toy entries and most will never feature it. I vote for going ahead with it regardless.
:::While we are addressing the "designer credits" issue, can we also please find a better phrase to use on the designer pages than "Toys So-and-so is known to have had a hand in creating"? It's just so overwrought. I think "Design Team Credits Include:" gets the point across much more naturally.... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:54, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::::This is a fair point. Maybe something as blunt as "Known Design Work" mirroring the "Published Works" thing we use for writers/artists? -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Looks good to me. Hope we can scrounge together sources and lists for older design teams too. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 15:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I can't see any reason not to do this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not a toy person, but that looks really cool! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:23, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
Oh wow, I'm blown away by the universally positive reception here! If there are no concerns in the next few days I guess I'll get started rolling this out. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Alrighty it's been a fair bit with no further concerns, so I have pushed the template live to [[:Template:Toydesigner]] and will begin implementing it as I have time. Any and all help is appreciated, as this will of course be a huge job. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 16:13, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Wiki Toy Photo Quality Standards ==
So we know (and had long suspected anyway) that Hasbro designers are sometimes pulling Wiki photos for reference. That's great, but we've got some toy photography on here that's a good bit off from what the figures look like in reality for one reason or another. Is there any way to flag shots that are out of whack so that they might get tweaked or replaced? This issue comes to mind since, while I've been here more or less since the Wiki started, I don't recall there being a formal set of standards for photos since it just wasn't really a big deal before now. Oversaturation is my main complaint, since one user a long while ago was going through, taking existing shots into Photoshop and oversaturating the hell out of them without regard to the actual toy, and I've noticed some updated photography like [[Prowl (Magnaboss)]] that does basically the same. It's a larger photo, but that Prowl is definitely not blazing yellow in person. Apologies in advance and please disregard if this has already been discussed elsewhere or before.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:10, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:For the record, my lighting set up is very warm, hence why Prowl's colours appear so bright. I haven't figured out the right balance in Photoshop to get the colours of figures to look spot on so figures either appear too bright or too dull in the finished product. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:30, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::Oh, I'm not intending to put you on the spot, that's just the first example I had on hand of a wider issue that we probably need to start being careful about since it appears to be (hilariously) affecting actual figures now, like Titans Return PMOP or Legacy Iguanus. When it was the one guy tweaking things to be inaccurate "because it looked better", I could follow him and revert stuff, but I can't when there's nothing to revert in most cases.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 18:38, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::I recommend ring lights, you can get some pretty cheap, they've good at spreading light out rather than heavy-focus, and they have adjustable brightness and warm/cool light settings: use "cool" (aka white/blue-tinted). Even before I got ring lights, I used "cool" light bulbs in the lamps. The problem is these are nowhere as common as the "normal" yellow-tinted bulbs, thus, go with the ring lights.
::As for "standards"... well, good luck with that. Every camera's a little different. Every MONITOR is a little different. Hell, I have a double-monitor setup with different models and they have small but distinct differences in brightness & etc; honestly I'm good with it since it lets me check how things may look to different people. But I think maybe a tag for photos that we are CERTAIN are too far off from final product (be they user-made or stock images) may not be a bad idea. Assuming we notice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:44, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, a tag we can throw on to a photo just to make it at least visible that it's incorrect would be useful. And would probably prompt a deco designer to gather some secondary reference material, assuming the tag's obvious. I like the idea.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:29, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I've noticed that the quality of the UT stuff in the toys section flunctuates greatly-- for example, ML Starscream still uses the guidebook picture, and Superlink ver of the combining Optimus downright doesn't exist. I've started to collect UT toys since Hasbro has been updating UT stuff with more commitment and I have 0 faith in them doing it right, and most of the stuff I've gotten are the JP versions. For minor alterations like ML/ Armada Megs, is it worth uploading a completely new picture of ML Megatron onto his page? Another issue worth regarding discussing is "cartoon accuracy". Whilst Hasbro is indeed working on making more accurate figures, they obviously aren't 100% accurate, like 86 starscream using the commonly accepted G1 logo instead of the sunbow accurate one with the spike in the middle, and even from a sculpt and proportional standppint the ER mold is far from accurate compared to the sunbow model, let alone MP52. I actually cleaned up the page for TM2 Megatron because he deviates pretty heavily if you compare the CG model to the final toy, and changed the claim that Skids is "toon" accurate as he is blantently based on the original toy in deco. The same goes for Starscream, aside from the forearms and forehead hes blatently based on the T30 toy. I also had to edit that bit --[[User: Pixelmaster|Pixelmaster]] 3:31 HKT

==Reconsolidating some of our pages==
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, but I'd like to propose re-merging some of our excessively split articles back into something more manageable. It seems like that once a page is split out, a) we get a lot less editorial oversight, as the recent toy page trimming has revealed, b), stuff does not get updated nearly as often as they would be on their respective mainpages, and c) it makes information harder to find by pushing it behind a subpage that's not readily accessible.

Obviously I understand that splits are necessary for the really long pages like [[Optimus Prime (G1)]], [[Megatron (G1)]], and soforth, but when you get down to like, [[Mirage (G1)]] or [[Hound (G1)]] or [[Hot Shot (Armada)]], there's barely anything of any significance on their main pages beyond Dreamwave or the odd IDW cameo. Are, for instance, [[Ravage (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ravage]]'s Marvel adventures that major that they can't fit into the main page? Are [[Hook (G1)/toys|Hook]] or [[Warpath (G1)#Toys|Warpath]] really that inundated with toys that they need their own subpage? If it's a problem of just ''length'', then a lot of the subpaged articles or mainpage stuff like the storybooks could just be trimmed down into something more manageable—as I did with G1 Cliffjumper's Marvel section earlier this year. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 17:00, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:I 100% agree with this. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:04, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Fully in favour. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 17:20, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Sub-pages should, on their own, be significantly sizable pages to justify making readers link-jump. A dozen toys does not strike me as remotely enough to justify a subpage split. Being ''in'' a major long-running fiction but mostly having appearances in a minority of installments that can be summed up in two sentences doesn't justify a split. New editing tools are fun and all, but just 'cuz you gotta new hammer doesn't mean you have to go hunting for anything that looks vaguely nail-like. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:18, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Incoming maintenance ==

Just a heads up, our host is going to be doing some maintenance in about an hour that may cause problems with the site, so if you have trouble reaching it and therefore cannot read this message, that's what it is. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:11, 23 November 2022 (EST)

== Foreign names ==

A dispute came up recently on the [[Megatron (ES)]] page. User:Kiké Prime has been providing Hungarian names for all the characters, but this one apparently is just "Megatron". Cyberlink420 removed it. I disputed it, pointing out that not listing it leaves the implication that we do not know the name of the character in the language. Despite having my reversion again reverted, I still find deliberately leaving blanks in our name lists odd. I am thus bringing the matter here for further discussion. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:16, 5 December 2022 (EST)
:My understanding has always been that we only add foreign names if they are different from the English name. Per pages like [[Megatron (G1)]], this includes examples where the name is the same, but is spelled with a diacritic or using a different alphabet. So "Megatron" wouldn't be different enough to justify inclusion, but examples like Mégatron, Megatrón, Мегатрон and メガトロン would. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:10, 5 December 2022 (EST)

== Nonbinary Character Category ==

So, we now have another nonbinary character (who actually used their pronouns during the media no less), [[Nightshade (ES)|Nightshade]] from [[Transformers: EarthSpark (franchise)|Earthspark]] (Nightshade at time of posting doesn't have a page yet)! The other fully for certain fully intentional one is [[Screwball]] from [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] while [[Acid Storm (Cyberverse)|Acid Storm]] was at least an out of media by writer retcon of animation, and [[Overlord_(G1)#Ask_Vector_Prime|Overlord's]] gender is somewhat nebulous on where that fits beyond being gender expansive due to being [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#December 23, 2015|"what some would call genderfluid"]] but that at least puts us at three. Given that we have a trans category now we thought it best to at this point suggestion a nonbinary category for the sake of users (including gender expansive people) easily finding nonbinary characters on here. Obviously adding Nightshade will have to wait until they have a page but any thoughts on this yea or nay? [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 18:28, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:I forgot about Screwball. I think with three confirmed examples, even without the edge case of Overlord, that's probably enough to justify one. Care will have to be taken, however, to only include confirmed examples and not use it as a dumping ground for any character whose gender has never been explicitly identified. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:37, 8 December 2022 (EST)
::Authorial intent and all, but I can say that if I had the option to go back and rewrite it I would have used the term non binary for Overlord. I feel like Acid Storm is more of an edge case; it’s what one person said on their account to justify it. Whenever Acid Storm actually says something they’re animated with a female face; it’s not done at random.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:47, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::Acid Storm changes from masculine male to feminine female and back. Gender-fluid, sure, but definitely non-binary? As for Overlord, in the Legends manga Mega gives Overlord a female-presenting face - is there a pronoun change during that time? Would we have more candidates for inclusion in a Gender-fluid category first? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:17, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::::Thank for the notes folks, that does help to piece this together! Just want to note that a pronoun change is not necessary for a gender being experienced in fluidity to be the one expressed or what have you, so unless the Legends manga actually has some sort of statement about Overlord's fluidity that kind of puts us back with an umbrella term of nonbinary (which we are unsure as not having read the Legends manga if that would work for that Overlord so we can't speak to where/if Overlord falls under gender expansiveness beyond the fact that Overlord's presentation changes depending on the binary bond partner right?). Acid Storm is an edge case yes but if we do count the edge case that they are we think it is worth noting that for Acid Storm what Catt said was specifically that changing expression is just something they do, and "any pronouns" work for Acid Storm, no statement about the binary. Of course, we only see two faces which are the two different Seeker faces that were otherwise delineated by gender, but at this point we're getting into the opt-in thing of 'x person is genderfluid and thus considers themself nonbinary' or 'z person is genderfluid and only considers themself as under the multigender umbrella'. Which we don't have detail on really if Acid Storm is genderfluid as how they know themselves right? Because that's just a thing that was written in the Female Transformers page because of (no blame being given, it's understandable) the user finding that to be the term that fit best? Feel like we've ended up just pointing out an need for just a gender expansive category instead but ah well. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:46, 1 January 2023 (EST)
::::::We seem to have killed this with a non-solution for the nonbinary category by pointing out that gender expansive is more certain than saying genderfluid. If we count Nightshade, Overlord, and Screwball, is that a go on nonbinary, or should we just have a gender expansive category at this point that would also be one trans characters use? For people wondering what gender expansive means you can find a definition here https://www.diversitystyleguide.com/glossary/gender-expansive/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/08/gender-expansive-mean/ [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:18, 6 February 2023 (EST)
:::::::Respectfully, I think needing to invoke a glossary suggests the term is so little-used in common parlance that it would not be useful for our needs and style. We don't have a category tag at the bottom of a bunch of BW characters saying "tetrapods" or "perissodactyls" (we ''do'' talk like that on [[Popular beast alternate modes]], maybe a grouping ''page'' would be a better approach? Just a thought...). If we are looking for a category tag I think it would be better to find the term that unambiguously covers the largest number of candidates, without a need to rely on edge cases, maintaining both accuracy and readability. I see three characters that could sensibly go in a Gender-fluid tag, one that could go in a Non-binary tag (meaning we wouldn't make the latter). We may be facing a case where there are few enough disparate examples that there isn't one single category tag that usefully unites them. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:55, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::::::::With the most recent block of EarthSpark episodes having further explored Nightshade's character and introduced a new nonbinary character in the form of Sam (this also saw the term nonbinary used in the show for the first time), we have been discussing the topic of introducing a Nonbinary characters category on the Discord. Doing some research, AVP also confirmed the Tigerhawk of Primax 496.22 Alpha (the Beast Wars cartoon continuity) to be nonbinary, so that's another character to justify that category. It's been suggested by an expert on the matter that we could introduce a "Gender expansive characters" category as an umbrella category, with Genderfluid characters, Nonbinary characters, and Transgender characters existing as subcategories as a way of future-proofing our coverage of gender expansive characters, while also ensuring we don't lump every gender expansive character together into a single broad category and hopefully making these concepts easier to navigate for casual readers. - [[User:Archforce|Archforce]] ([[User talk:Archforce|talk]]) 17:26, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::In sequence you replied to my post of Feb 7 but seem to have side-stepped the part where I questioned the usefulness of a category tag that will not be widely understood. Also, creating such a category exactly ''is'' "lumping them all together into a single broad category." So is that approach desirable or not? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::: They said the word nonbinary in the show. In a show full of nonbinary rep. And then nonbinary characters exists outside of that show, and it would not be a dangerous bet to expect this to continue. But people are born with an innate understanding of what an Alpha Primax 9384u743 is, or Transmetals, or Powermasters, but not what a nonbinary person is so yeah maybe we are going too far on this website for nerds who want to learn more about things related to Transformers (like nonbinary characters). We have a category called council members. Literally for any character who has served on any council. I did not understand what "council members" actually refered to before I clicked on it, assumed it was more specific than it was, but in fact it took me two seconds to figure it out. A non-binary category and/or gender-expansive category would surely be the same. And as Archforce says, make these concepts easier to navigate. Or if that was too long, what Walky said. Seriously. You also appear to misunderstand what is meant by lumping together. Because putting all non-binary people in a non-binary category is accurate, and is something I and at least some others want, putting all non-binary people on a transgender page would be a misrepresentative "all of these are the same thing right?". Gender-expansive on the other hand comes from someone familiar with the matter, and as a non-binary person myself, as someone who has researched gender representation in media at an honours level (to flex some credentials that yeah I could be making up), I agree with what is being said on the Discord. Gender expansive as an umbrella provides the room to not lump everyone together while recognising yeah there is something shared in any act of gender that is not one of cisgender conformity. Having transgender and nonbinary characters on the same page while called out as two seperate subcategories I again think helps casual readers navigate based on this. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 18:40, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::Not using the best useful terms because they're not understood by enough people is extremely self-defeating. I reject that line of thinking. (also, like, c'mon, the first complete article for this wiki was gaddang Robot-Master, not Optimus Prime, so I think we can say the words "gender expansive" even if someone hasn't heard of them) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:49, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::Thank you all for the discussion! To clarify regarding aesthetics (because gender is aesthetics, we can give recommendations on stuff to read re that), the term gender expansive does not in fact cover everybody, merely all the bots we're talking about it in this instance and likely future unless we get canon transformers fiction that actually uses a variable alien aesthetic system that isn't gender but is something similar. To put this another way: not all human societies' aesthetic category concepts and formulation of individual and collective context for self such as pronouns, names, expressions, (to use Leslie Feinberg's words for navigating transness and gender itself, the 'poetics,' not just construction) etc. used or uses those in a way that neatly fits modern Western gender constructs with a large number of examples both from outside Europe and within it. In a similar vein some xeno aesthetic spectrum folks (like some of ourselves, and yes we're getting very obscure here the gender parallel is xenogender) and speculative fiction/sci-fi about aliens live or navigates the idea of aesthetic structures that are not gender at all but merely overlap or parallel.
:::::::::::Transformers fiction has really only touched on the subject of the alien aspect of the bots' gender or lack thereof when trying to portray that something is there by e.g.; parallel with the embodying and living of their various modes such as when Lodestar speaks to having weapon retrofit dysphoria in the 2021 annual (yes, the 'embodying and living' is something we're borrowing from Gayle Salamon on how she frames gender), their unique histories, the December 23rd 2015 AVP gender answer having a note about continuities where the concept of gender is barely relevant, and possibly that time 'gal' got put in quotations (it's still unclear what Maggs meant by that but that's okay). So rest assured that while gender expansive is a broad category- it only future proofs us until alien terminology or narrative that is clearly shown in replacement of when gender would otherwise be used in a story actually happens in canon. Which would be incredibly exciting, but isn't where we are right now. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:11, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::But we are nonetheless at a special point in time in the transformations of transformers, that the categories genderfluid, nonbinary, and gender expansive would be useful for. <3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:15, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::Gosh that felt good to dedicating an afternoon to doing, thank you for the help! We feel that [[Editor|Chief]] ought to be included in the gender expansive category, and given the entry regarding Tigerhawk that was mentioned here, Spittor arguably also could be [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#May_23.2C_2015|"In some universes where Spittor scans an organic alternate mode, his biological system conforms to female while his Cybertronian gender identity is male."]]. Chief seems fairly obvious? RE Spittor where his situation could be argued to break down is the cybertronian understanding of gender maybe not matching gender and anatomy as framed by humans but then that in itself still qualifies. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:32, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::: *shrugs* maybe the latter re Spittor and similar situations is just something to note in an eventual article rather than to throw in the category itself [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:45, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::I'm gonna say that I'm for Editor while Spittor is ultimately a way of just saying that his alt-mode is a female frog even though he's male. Ala Tigatron in the cartoon, Waspinator, etc. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:57, 5 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::::Thank you, that helps clarify things! :3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:47, 5 March 2023 (EST)

== Adding an informative table to each character page ==
I was thinking about it since it's striking.. lack.. There should be a way to tell people in which and how many episodes/issues/movies each character appears in the continuity they belong to, their debut episode/issue movie, what aliases they have had and nicknames they were given by other characters, a more centered area for the voice or live actors, a link to their gallery pages(if they have any) and one to their disambiguation pages etc. The kind of information that one would prefer to find with greater ease, especially if they aren't members. And talking about their appearances, that should prove quite useful for future page edits, since we'll know exactly where to look especially when it's about latecomers or characters that don't appear on a regular basis. I just think it'd be useful. [[User:Darthrone|Darthrone]] ([[User talk:Darthrone|talk]]) 15:44, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:This kind of infobox was discussed at the very earliest days of this wiki, and it was decided that there was just way, way too much information for it to work... and this was in 2006, BEFORE the franchise exploded. TF is such a fragmented kludge of fictions from multiple sources and creators spanning 40 years that any major character would end up with one ultra-massive thing of dubious use (can't say I see the value in a "number of appearances" tally, aside from the headache of keeping that accurate over time and arguing "what counts"), or a billion splintered ones spread across the page for the different fictions. And "nicknames" is always a minefield as those tend to turn into a massive list of "someone called them this once" which is... not helpful. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:46, 2 February 2023 (EST)
::Even if it had been a day-1 thing, I don't see how this is more informative than our current style. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:58, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:::I'm for infoboxes, but the information you're asking for is far too abstract and meaningless in this franchise. (We are absolutely not doing "nicknames". No.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:09, 2 February 2023 (EST)

==The (BWU) tag==
I understand the reasons why [[#Proposal re: G1 pages|my previous proposal]] regarding the proliferation of (G1) pages for random newer characters was soundly rejected. However, my main motivation for raising it was that I find the huge quantity of (BWU) pages for "repurposed" Mini-Cons and bestial Transformers to be reader-unfriendly, so I wanted to make a case for making an exception for ''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]'' cameos. ''Uprising'' was an obscure barely-canon multi-continuity-drifting web serial which we are very unlikely to get further instalments of, and most of the relevant characters are similarly very deep pulls who will assuredly not be appearing again in future stories, and who will otherwise be stuck with tiny stub-pages forever. Most of these are Mini-Cons (here Micromasters) or bestial Transformers (here Protoformers), with a few boats or Constructicons from "[[Derailment]]". In many cases, I perceive ''Uprising'' as having tried to give these toys a hint of fiction where previously they had none at all, much like [[Ask Vector Prime]] before it. It's a very different phenomenon to most so-called "continuity transplants" we've seen in other series (such as with, say, [[Hot Shot (G1)]]), which are instead rooted in the popularity of those characters.

I think the problem here is that strictly speaking ''Uprising'' is a "Primax" continuity, sure, but it lifts dozens of characters (let alone concepts) unchanged from later stories. Slavishly hewing to that label when it's such an intertextual melting pot has resulted in this unfriendly setup. It feels like a fair decision made at the time (was [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive64#Derailment & Uprising pages|this discussion]] the one?) but in my opinion the wiki's policy kinda fails here. If we get rid of the (BWU) tag, the (G1) back-ports remaining (a minority!) will be for more significant characters, often adapted more radically. Here's the list of tiny pages we could be rid of, just like that:

*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]

There's a handful of ''Uprising'' characters that need a (G1) page anyway for non-''Uprising'' reasons; I'm totally ambivalent about where the ''Uprising'' content ends up for these: [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Override (BWU)]] (!), [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Twirl (G1)]].

Finally there's a few weird cases that would merit individual discussion but would probably just need to keep their own pages: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]].

Here is a ([https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&redirs=1&profile=all&search=%22from+the%22+%22continuity+families%22 probably non-exhaustive]) list of existing cases of multi-continuity drifting you should probably consider before weighing in:
* [[Buckethead]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 31, 2015|this Ask Vector Prime answer]])
* [[Drydock (TF 2010)]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 13, 2015|this answer]] which explicitly has him travel from one continuity to another)
* [[Drelnar Feh'd]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 17, 2015|this one]])
* [[Scorpia (G2)]], [[Autoceptor]], [[Deceptor]], and [[Kaltor]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#June 12, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Clear Skies Team]], [[Rapid Intervention Team]], [[Prehistoric Team]], [[Demolition Team]], [[Dirt Digger Team]], [[Heavy Load (Universe)]] and the [[Mobile Fortification Team]], and [[Detectas]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]]).
**However, exceptions from these Mini-Con teams are [[Nightscream (Cybertron)|Nightscream]], [[Offshoot (Cybertron)|Offshoot]], [[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]] and [[Knockdown (Cybertron)|Knockdown]], who all have separate (Cybertron) basis on the basis of receiving separate bios after being packed in with ''Cybertron'' Primus...
**...but then [[Liftor]] is all on a single page, despite his ''Classics'' bio.
**[[Snarl (Classics)|Snarl]], [[Sledge (Classics)|Sledge]], [[Wideload (Classics)|Wideload]], [[Knockdown (Classics)|Knockdown]], and [[Steel Wind]] already have ''Uprising'' content on their pages, but that makes sense as these were originally ''Classics'' guys.
* The [[Saurian Strike Team]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Minicon 8 Pack]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 24, 2015|this one]])
* The ''Dark of the Moon'' Mini-Cons [[Dualor (DOTM)]], [[Triceradon (DOTM)]], [[Rav (DOTM)]], and [[Catilla (DOTM)]], plus [[Ironlunge]], [[Reptix]], [[Sling (AOE)]], [[Gnashteeth]], [[Wedge Shape]], [[Brimstone (Universe)]], [[Apexus]], [[Gredator]], and [[Dragoyell]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#August 13, 2015|this one]])
** Weirdly, we ''separately'' have a page for [[Rav (BWU)]], but Catilla has Unicron Trilogy, movie, and ''Uprising'' appearances covered all on the one page!
* [[Galadria]] and [[Ramak]] (because of [[Source:Transformers: Spacewarp's Log#December 5, 2015|this post]])
* Am I to understand that [[Wind Sheer (RID)]], [[Skyfire (RID)]] and the [[Dimensional Patrol]] each have just a single page because (RID) ''is'' part of the G1 continuity family sometimes...?
* And I understand that [[Primus Vanguard]] cameos just go on their original pages because that's a weird thing kinda outside of G1 anyway (at least from an in-universe perspective, if not a real-world one).
* ''Diaclone'' examples like [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], and [[Chifumi Takahashi]] have been discussed to death.
* [[Monsterous]] was retconned to originally be from an Aligned universe (in [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#October 21, 2015|this post]], though I can't actually find any mention of Uniend? EDIT: [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#November 7, 2015|found it]]!)
* [[Primacron]] was apparently mentioned in ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II| The AllSpark Almanac II]]''.
* And [[Sentinel Supreme]] is just an Easter egg that everyone seemed to shrug about at the time.

To those who say the exception I'm proposing would be confusing, I submit these existing examples where we've apparently neglected to split something out as evidence that the only people this confuses are wiki editors like me wondering why they're not all that way. Maybe I'm just unaware of some aspect of the existing policy which accounts for all these cases? But is it really helpful to anyone to have a given toy's associated fiction squirrelled away somewhere separate you have to go into the disambiguation to find? We recently merged [[Chromhorn]] (another Sorenson job) on the basis that "There's literally no reason for these to be on different pages. They are the same thing." Can we not do the same for these Sorenson-penned cases that are basically going "look, the exact same guy shows up in multiple universes, alright?" And if the answer is no, will someone go through and split all these out? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:27, 6 February 2023 (EST)

:I think my response to your earlier G1-import proposal still applies here: the more exceptions we make to our system for the sake of "accessibility", the harder the overall structure becomes to grok for a new reader, and thus ironically it all becomes ''less'' accessible. Why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steel Jaw]], but ''Uprising'' Bisk be at [[Bisk (RID)]]? Or, conversely, why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steeljaw (RID)]], but LBS Steeljaw be at [[Steel Jaw|Steeljaw (IDW)]]? Neither solution is good.
:As for the current list of exceptions, I'd argue everything you list from Buckethead to the DOTM Mini-Cons should probably be split. Galadria and Ramak are characters from outside media, so we don't split them across continuity lines. Wind Sheer and Skyfire have one page for consistency with the other RID guys. The source on Monsterous being Aligned is [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#November_7.2C_2015|here]], but I would argue that's just giving an origin to the GoBot and so they should share a page anyway.
:Lastly - I object to you bringing the Chromhorn thing into this, as I don't think it's a fair comparison. Chromhorn wasn't making any exception to our categorisation system; it was one page saying "Chromhorn is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT" and another saying "Chromhorn Forest Type is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT", and the former was somehow a "repurposing" of the fictionless latter. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:24, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::Totally get the Steeljaw example—although it ''is'' crazy that we're currently disambiguating G1 wolf Steeljaw simply by [[Steel Jaw]]. You should post about the disambiguation tag policy change you suggested on Discord, I think a lot of people were thinking along similar lines there. Agree with your interpretation of the current policy as to which of the examples listed should be split and which shouldn't—although the more I think about the Primus Vanguard, the more I think those should technically be split too. While I guess the [[Time Warrior (AVP)|Time Warrior]]s are multiversal travellers like Drydock. RE: Chromhorn, I understand why it's technically different; I brought it up because I think it speaks to the tenor of ''Ask Vector Prime'' answers—in spirit, I think its aim was exactly the same as with the Mini-Con examples I've given.
::What do I mean by that? To match your Steeljaw example, from the opposite angle: say I'm your typical fan scrolling [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)]], and I click on, say, [[Dualor (DOTM)]], wondering if he's ever shown up in anything. In their current state, I get my answer immediately. With the proposed split for consistency, I instead get a page telling me that Dualor (DOTM) is a dinosaur Mini-Con from ''Dark of the Moon'', some info about the toy, ''maybe'' ending with an inscrutable note about how he was "repurposed" as an identical guy. Now, there's ''already'' an unrelated [[Dualor (Armada)]], so we'd need to make a disambiguation page. We can see this already by looking at [[Snow Cat (Universe)]], which is barren (the very scenario AVP so often tried to address!), and doesn't even admit to the existence of [[Snow Cat (BWU)]] aside from a general Snow Cat disambiguation tag. In some existing cases like [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], we've mirrored a toy writeup, which needs upkeep in parallel; in others, like Snow Cat, we're asking the user to visit the other page to read about the toy ''anyway''. To my mind, this is inarguably less accessible. I don't understand arguments made about accessibility here which are predicated on readers having learned editing policy to begin with, and I don't think this proposal would actually make it any harder to learn the system.
::I regret not listing out all the individual members of those Mini-Con teams above, to better communicate the sheer number of pages that would need to be made (and pages that would need to be renamed, in case of conflicts) to create this inconvenience in service of a rule we've already been ignoring without issue. Nobody wants to do this work, and I think it's less that no-one cares, and more that some people think it'd actually make the wiki worse, and the rest don't particularly think it'd make the wiki better.
::What about just making an exception for Mini-Cons/Micromasters? I've talked about ''Uprising'', but obviously the vast majority of cases that theoretically need splitting aren't from ''Uprising'' at all. Could probably even do a generic template like "X exists in multiple continuity families, and is a Micromaster/Maximal/Predacon in those without Mini-Cons". Thus your Steeljaws and Bisks and Overrides go unchanged, no problems or ambiguity there! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
:Once upon a time, I probably would have pushed for something like this, but where we are now: I am not a fan of any push towards treating something differently based on how "relevant" something is or not. It goes against the very spirit this wiki was founded on, because that is what was happening to the Wikipedia coverage of Transformers where they were just getting rid of things wholesale because of "relevancy." I can understand the basic point behind this, but I feel that doing so would set a bad precedent that could be exploited in the future.
:I'd be fine with splitting most of these out. I've said it before elsewhere but by and large a lot of the inconsistencies were largely the result of different contributors adding stuff or splitting stuff without a general consensus, and they haven't been cleaned up afterwards. Also, a minor note, but the Liftor thing was mainly cause no one noticed at the time until I wrote up about the profile years after the fact. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:26, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::If I gave the impression "relevancy" was the main thrust of my argument here, I didn't mean to! Like, it goes both ways—would we be merging because ''Uprising'' is so irrelevant that we shouldn't devote all these random stub pages to it, ''or'' are we merging because it's sufficiently relevant that we shouldn't be hiding that content in stub pages nobody visits? Either is true! I'm arguing for convenience and clarity. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: This definitely feels like the strongest argument to the merge in my mind. The wiki is no stranger to niche pages, pages for nameless, fictionless, toyless nonentities. But I believe these fictionless toys and toyless fiction which are really the same thing would be a richer niche page for the merges. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 20:36, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: I really think that once again, this overrates the number of people who would be confused by this, and underrates the number of people who would be able to figure out where to go if they wish to find the information. Like, I hate to do the whole "I was able to figure it out" thing but I was a small child with a single-digit age when I first discovered the wiki and I was able to figure out pretty quick why it was laid out the way it was. I'm not saying there's no room for improvement; I think there's a lot of cases in which the way we have things set up now is kind of ridiculous. But in this particular case, I don't really see how merging things would be any more convenient than just leaving them the way they are and splitting out the cases that we never got around to. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:52, 7 February 2023 (EST)

Just found some more pages that would need splitting under current policy: [[Crystal Widow]], [[Seawave]], [[Cradon]], [[Freefall (Kre-O)]], [[Liftoff]], and [[Epsilon Holdings]]. All due to ''Uprising'' and ''The Allspark Almanac''. Really hoping someone can propose a solution here that doesn't involve creating a billion pages and disambigs. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 09:24, 18 February 2023 (EST)
:We don't split businesses/locations/organizations, so Epsilon Holdings isn't one we need to consider. Kre-O doesn't really occupy a continuity family in our organization and I would just split the rest, especially Crystal Widow. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:28, 18 February 2023 (EST)

Noticed the ''[[Transformers: Earth Wars| Earth Wars]]'' stub templates on Mini-Con pages for [[Wheeljack Kunai]] and [[Bido]]. The game had previously added [[Gabu]], [[Zori]], [[Baru]], [[Bashbreaker]], [[Windstrike]], and [[Tricerashot]]. Following policy, these should ''all'' be split—see [[Giza (POTP)]] and [[Giza (Prime)]], although to be fair they're not the same animal at least. As always, I think the fiction for those toys should go on the pages for those toys. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 12:39, 17 March 2023 (EDT)

Just finished going through documenting the preliminary bios for the [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Predator Attack Team]], and [[Mini-Con Council of Sages]], from when the ''Classics'' Mini-Cons were still going to be released as ''Cybertron'' two-packs, and it occurs to me that if ''all'' of those guys end up getting duplicate pages, the Unicron Trilogy pages would be where that information should probably end up. Right now it's all a bit of a mess, as some of those characters have (Cybertron) pages via the Primus bonus-pack-in, some don't, and others had their names changed from their would've-been ''Cybertron'' incarnations anyway. I've generally tried to stick to linking to the existing pages rather than redlinking—naturally I remain convinced that it'd be for the best if we didn't distinguish between ''Classics'' and ''Cybertron'' at all in this case and just kept all the relevant information for each of those Mini-Cons on one page per; I think [[Liftor]] is proof that this is in fact perfectly fine and much, much less of a headache for readers. See whatever the hell is going on with the page for the [[Night Rescue Team]], which names the patrol car as "[[Strongarm (Classics)|Strongarm]]/[[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]]" as though that's something which makes any sense at all. Tangentially, I also reckon the material from these early bios (which evidently made it out via the official Hasbro website ''somehow'') should probably just be written up in fiction sections proper, along the lines of, say, cancelled Dreamwave issues...? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:03, 23 April 2023 (EDT)
:The Cybertron Primus pack-in guys had bios written by Sepelak and Troop (who also wrote the bios for the Classics guys) that deliberately made them different characters for the Club website with little in common besides their physical appearances. It's not a case of "old rules" at all, it was something specific done at the time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:28, 23 April 2023 (EDT)

==Wikia links still around?==
https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Smelting_pool&direction=prev&oldid=109505
Are other archived "intermediate / obsolete" edit pages still pointing to Wikia? Or have they been somehow neutralized? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:52, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
:Not exactly sure what you're asking? I mean, the link is literally part of the text in that edit, so it wouldn't be removed. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:25, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
::Is that page (and presumably any other intermediate edit page from those years) still directing search engines to Wikia? Some years ago it was seen as pretty urgent that every last such link be removed, regardless of location. Not "gone from current pages," gone from ''everything''. As I recall, there were even refs to Wikia pre-struck-out on pages so people could only see them in mid-edit, but they were still boosting Wikia's rankings, and an admin had to create a bot to scrape them out of everywhere. If they still persist on hundreds of intermediate edit pages from those years, should those pages be totally erased, as they would be when randos insert porn or hate speech here? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:10, 26 May 2023 (EDT)
:::Historic page revisions are not indexed by Google, so they won't boost Wikia rankings. Those links will be present on any revisions before March 2008, as those revisions are from a backup imported from when the site was on Wikia. We still do have some Wikia links on live pages ([[Miscolorings based on the Generation 1 cartoon]] is an example) but those links will be marked nofollow as all external links are, so they should, in theory, not be boosting Wikia's ranking either. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:04, 26 May 2023 (EDT)

== ROTB being a reboot - what should we do with that? ==

I don't necessarily hold an opinion on this issue, but according to an interview with the director of ROTB, Rise of the Beasts will be a reboot of the live-action movie franchise. Will this affect how existing articles are grouped and written? Or does the wiki just consider it a case of authorial intent? ([https://news.tfw2005.com/2023/05/27/transformers-rise-of-the-beasts-director-steven-caple-jr-confirms-rotb-set-in-a-rebooted-universe-484900 source]) [[User:Gigirassy|Gigirassy]] ([[User talk:Gigirassy|talk]]) 16:19, 27 May 2023 (EDT)
:The wiki is intentionally waiting for the movie's official release to make a stand on the matter. Regardless, even if the movie is a reboot it will not affect the wiki as much as you may be thinking it will; both movie series will simply be considered as two different continuities that are still part of the same continuity family overall (just like the multitude of G1 universes out there that are all in the same family). What may or may not happen is some characters may get splitted pages depending on if there's enough evidence for that, but for now all we can do is just wait and see. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:56, 27 May 2023 (EDT)

== Adaptation notes ==

Can we figure out a way to format this information that isn't an ugly and intrusive note that fucks up the formatting? Like, convert them into storylinks or references. Collapsible notes. Something. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:(also probably take a weed whacker to the insane number of images people try to stuff into those film sections but that's another discussion) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:09, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
::I second that. Though we would also have to find a place to put the extra information those notes sometimes provide about how the adaptation differs from the source material. Like how [[Optimus Prime (Movie)#Transformers film|Optimus Prime]]'s notes on the 07 movie mention he kills Barricade in the adaptations when that doesn't happen in the movie itself. Or the very recent example of how ROTB [[Wheeljack (ROTB)|Wheeljack]] appears [[Mission at the Museum|in a book based entirely on the half of the movie he wasn't supposed to appear in]]. So how will we deal with that? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:40, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Against this. When it comes to an informational wiki, utility should be a higher priority than aesthetic taste. Speaking of aesthetics, however… [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:We can be informative without haphazardly shoving "hey, here's some inconsequential adaptations you likely don't care about" into readers' faces. Not all information is created equal, as we've already established by hiding any VAs that the great majority of readers don't care about. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:41, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

I'd be against this. The notes make it clear that one thing is an adaptation of another, allow differences to be described succinctly without wholesale repetition of an entire story section, and I honestly think a mass of stoylyinks for every movie character in the first 3 Bay films after their write-up would be far more visually obtrusive and difficult to parse than the note that's already there, for example.[[User:AkibaSilver|AkibaSilver]] ([[User talk:AkibaSilver|talk]]) 22:31, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm gonna more or less agree with the above. Storylinks are ''absolutely'' a bad idea once you get beyond, like, two in a row. And I really don't feel like there's ever going to be enough adaptations of any one thing to justify a whole template, where "voice actors in a dozen languages" and "holy crap they redecoed/retooled/rereleased this toy THIS MANY TIMES" certainly can get hugely bulky. And honestly, if they're not a huge list, I like the easy discoverability of keeping them in a note below; hiding them whiffs of "we should de-prioritize the coloring books and not-current media on character pages" that we rejected from the get-go. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:56, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

== Images and formatting ==

Here’s something that baffles me; at least far back as the MP announcement of the Trainbots, there’s been a push by some to remove images from articles for reasons that mostly elude me. I agree that a lot of our older writeups have images that aren’t good, but what I don’t get is the removal of them from sections that only have one image. Sure, a lot of the time it’s for characters that have very minor roles in something, but I’ve always thought that McFeely’s way of making articles (by getting the best possible image of each character in every section whenever possible) is the gold standard for how we make articles. On a loosely related note; I’m not convinced by Sipher’s recent push to align images to the right; I think the alternating thing we usually have is much cleaner (aside from in toy sections). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:29, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
: Opening a section with a left-justified image almost invariably fucks up the normal "flow" of how your eyes move when you reach the end of a line: you move down and ''left'' to the next line. Most of the time, left-justified images at the top of the section push that next line of text to the ''right'' of the header. It may look "better" if you unfocus and just look at the page as a blur, but if you're actually ''reading'' the text, it's a subtle but very there stumbler. If it's a section where there's a "voice actors" bit or a note template ''above'' the image where the end of that is ''definitely'' going to end up beyond the rightmost border of the image, that's fair. ''Every'' image doesn't have to be on the right. Alternating is fine within longer sections. But opening with left should be used sparingly and judiciously. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

==Two things sandboxed a while ago maybe we might consider==
*[[User:M Sipher/Sandbox:ToysBullets]]
*[[User:M Sipher/sandbox:ToypageAltmodesAdded]]
I mean I'm not gonna lie, these are both in the "oh my grodd so many pages" realm, and worse, they're not something we can really get a bot to do. But, Iunno, something to consider.<br>
The insignia bullet point thing on individual character pages, only so many characters have toys across multiple factions (most would have G1/G2 variants), so this doesn't feel as "important" an addition, but, well. Could be useful. Adding altmodes to the toyline page listings, however, I think there's a decent case for, especially when dealing with obscure toy-only characters in lines loaded to the gills with toys. It'll certianly help the "man I remember I had this cool toy what was its name" searches. And it involves tweaking considerably fewer pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:09, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm in favor of the first from a readability standpoint. It just looks better. On the alt modes, I worry it might open the door to edit skirmishes on some of the more vague vehicle modes out there (thinking specifically of Devcon that just came out, or things that are just indeterminate like Cybertron Menasor or Protoform Optimus/Starscream), that just "Cybertronic car/jet/whatever" isn't a common term people outside the Wiki would really think to search, and how specific we'd need to get a la "truck" versus "longnose truck" versus "Peterbilt 379 truck". Hard to call, in my opinion.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 23:37, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
::The bullet points hit me a little weird at first but I could get used to them, I think it's a neat idea. And I can see the inclusion of alt modes in toy pages as something useful, though no doubt a lot of pages would have to be slightly rearranged to make room for them. Regardless, I'd gladly give a hand with some of the editing if either one gets approved. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 09:46, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
::: RE: altmodes on toyline pages... As far as "arguments" go, you get those ''anyway''. I think for these pages we can afford a bit of looseness ("red Lamborghini" for 1984 Sideswipe since there's a lot of sports cars (and two Lambos) in that line/assortment, "blue sports car" for Cyb Hot Shot since there are fewer "sports cars" in that line), giving enough for a quick ID'ing. Spacing... yeah, this will stretch the pages vertically a bit, but like, that's generally fine if the space has ''information'' in it. Plus it will likely mean we can add another pic to the right-hand side of many sections, letting us give a few more examples. And it'll beef up the absolutely anemic sections slightly. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 01:53, 29 June 2023 (EDT)
:So, anyone got any objections to these, other than "holy hell that's a lot of manual work"? If anything, it'd also be a good excuse to go in and find out what entries are in need of some sprucing up and getting to today's standards... properly sorting the features into cohesive paragraphs, moving release dates to bullet points, trimming excess or filling out light writeups, making sure links to other toys have the proper anchors, etc. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:32, 4 July 2023 (EDT)
::The faction symbols look neat, no issue there. ''Really'' dislike the alt-mode descriptions on the toyline pages; it's a huge amount of visual noise for very little informational gain, not even to mention the actual work involved. I honestly think they would be very error-prone as a rule, or at the very least lead to some extremely tiresome debates—for example, you've labelled Soundwave/Sideways as "Cybertronian" jets, but my understanding is that they're not Cybertronians at all...? Even until pretty recently, I often find myself clicking links on toy pages only to find that they've been broken by the epidemic of "/toys" splits (and then the subsequent merges now that that's being corrected!); so far as I'm concerned, if you're consistently able to click a link on a toyline page and immediately jump to a write-up with an actual image of the toy in question, that'd be far more useful than a brief indicator of alt-mode, especially considering most readers are going to know that Starscream probably turns into "a jet". Something else this has brought to mind for me, though—for the ''Cybertron'' toyline, could be nice to have extra faction bullets for the various Cyber Key types they came with! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:53, 6 July 2023 (EDT)
::: Late to the party, but I've seen some of the faction bullets have been implemented in some character articles and I really like how they look. I think it will also help in the long run with figures that are marketed as a certain faction on Hasbro's websites or packaging, but not on the toy itself or utilized in any fiction. Like, for example: ''Studio Series'' Sentinel Prime. His packaging features a Decepticon insignia, while his instructions feature an Autobot insignia, which means the toy is marketed as both factions, even if both insignia are absent on the toy itself. The alt-mode descriptors, on the other hand, are a no from me, better to leave those kinds of specifics to the toy write ups themselves, as some toy listings in toyline articles are already pretty cluttered as it is, due to all of the characters included in some sets. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:20, 5 August 2023 (EDT)

== Alternators/Binaltech headers on toy pages ==

It feels like something from the old days of the wiki that has become outdated by our modern standards. Binaltech is not its own toyline, it's just the Takara version of Alternators, as reflected by both lines [[Transformers: Alternators|sharing the same page]]. So I propose we stop using "Alternators/Binaltech" headers on toy pages. Keep "Binaltech" on characters that ''only'' have Takara toys and standardize to just "Alternators" on all pages with either only Hasbro toys or both Hasbro and Takara toys. To use similar examples, we only have "[[Fortress Maximus (RID)#Car Robots|Car Robots]]" and "[[Lockdown (RID)#Adventure|Adventure]]" headers on Takara-only toy pages, while all other pages have "Robots in Disguise (2001)" and "Robots in Disguise (2015)" regardless of if they have Takara toys or not. There's no "Robots in Disguise/Car Robots" or "Robots in Disguise/Adventure" headers. So can we please start using the same standard to Alternators? --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 14:58, 29 June 2023 (EDT)

== Energon Universe coverage ==

With Void Rivals #2 due out next week, I think we need to start a discussion about how much coverage we give non-TF issues in the Energon Universe. This isn't like IDW where the shared universe element came years later; we're starting out on the ground floor, with Transformers part of the universe from the very first released issue. It's going to be closely involved with all the comics going forward, so I think we need to figure out if we're going to cover everything, and if not, what qualifies for coverage. For example, it sounds like Energon is going to be a recurring element in both Void Rivals and G.I. Joe. Is that alone enough to qualify, or do there need to be actual Transformers characters? I think we need to start asking these sorts of questions so we can figure out the scope of our coverage. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:39, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I'm fine with covering everything. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 23:42, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I am also in favor of covering it all, the universe has established immediately that Transformers seem to be intrinsic to it, and this way we can keep all reading to one wiki. [[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 23:46, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
::Agreed. They are presenting it as a shared, intrinsically connected universe - and yeah it's called the Energon Universe so that's very clearly transformery to us unless energon moves on from here to be a generic hasbroverse term, which we doubt. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:52, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:Yeah. I think "cover everything" is the best approach to begin with, and then if we want to discuss splitting things off at a later date we can do that. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 00:00, 11 July 2023 (EDT)
:Nothing against a "cover everything" either. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 00:53, 12 July 2023 (EDT)

==Stock image sizes==
Okay, I wanted to bring this up before going on a revertathon but... is there ANY need for HD stock imagery here? Frankly, 4000x2000 images at nearly a meg each seems like absolute overkill and just adding incrementally to server load (good god various Optimuses' toy pages are bad enough as it is, we prolly shouldn't be doing things to make that worse). We just need images big enough to be clear, we're not here to archive print-quality images. I've been sticking to a general 600px vertical with the odd 700px for bigger/more involved toys when doing pics, and like, that sure seems more than fine. Once you hit 1000px it feels real excessive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:01, 3 August 2023 (EDT)

== Video game cameos ==

{{collist|2|
*[[Kunai]]
*[[Sawtooth (G1)]]
*[[Tricerashot (G1)]]
*[[Windstrike (G1)]]
*[[Zori (G1)]]
*[[Bashbreaker (G1)]]
*[[Baru (G1)]]
*[[Bido (G1)]]
*[[Gabu (G1)]]}}

I'm not seeing the point in being persnickety about continuity families when it comes to mobile game cameos, especially when said game already has established characters from other continuity families. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:52, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:If you bothered to do some due diligence, you would know these guys are selectable for individual play, not "cameos". As long as our continuity family policy remains in place, they merit pages just as ''Prime'' Knock Out's G1 transplant does. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:56, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
::Dude, they're support units without any real role in the story (which, again, includes multiversal travelers already). That's cameo level to me. It's not comparable to Knock Out. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:04, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:::Late, but they're definitely not cameos. The COMBAT bots frequently have their own dialogue and play a part in the event storylines. They're probably ''exactly'' the same situation as Knock Out, who so far as I can tell was introduced without any fanfare as to whether he's a native to the ''Earth Wars'' universe or a dimension-hopper. The same even appears true of "Breakdown Prime"! In the past, when characters from other continuities have shown up, there's always been lots of hullabaloo in the dialogues explaining where they've come from. It's silly to make definitive claims one way or another until we successfully scrape the scripts from the last couple of years and can read everything, so under current wiki policy unless someone can produce dialogues where Windstrike says "whoa, this Earth Wars universe is crazy, not at all like my home reality!" we just have to assume they're G1 versions of those characters and give them separate pages. Personally, I would actually ''agree'' that it's really silly to have created all of these tiny stub pages for these so-called "continuity transplants", and even brought up the fact earlier on the Portal that nobody had seemed to consider it problematic when they were all just lumped in on the Aligned pages, but if this is how it's gotta be then someone who feels strongly about the split oughta commit to having the coverage on the G1 pages, not the Aligned pages, and disambiguate between them properly. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:14, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Subcategory trimming ==

Looking at some of our character categories, such as the subcats under [[:Category:Generation 1 Autobots]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Decepticons]], I'm starting to wonder if all of these are strictly necessary. I think there's merit to having categories for whole franchises, but I'm unsure whether we necessarily need to add more categories for inclusion in specific media or toylines, like "G1 cartoon Autobots" or "G1 toy Decepticons"; after a while, it starts to feel a little excessive and perhaps even counterproductive. Thoughts? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:44, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:On the one hand, with "G1" being basically Brobdingnagian in scope, I think media/toyline subcategorization is definitely important... but I'm unsold in either direction on if the Autobot/Decep split in said subcats are necessary. I ''will'' put forward the argument ''for'' the subcategorization that categories are a very helpful method of quick-checking "who's in group x", especially with something as massive as "the Marvel comics cast". Looking for obscure comic Decepticons to maybe feature in something is a lot easier when you don't have to fish through a list that also includes every obscure comic-only Autobot. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:: I"m good for keeping "Generation 1 cartoon" and "Marvel comic" categories the way we do with Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 characters (although I think that the Marvel category should be merged with the preexisting [[:Category:Regeneration One Decepticons]] into a single "Marvel Comics continuity" category). "Generation 1 toy" seems... less necessary to me. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:31, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
::: The [[:Category:Generation 1 Seekers]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Aerialbots]] categories are good and useful categories to me, as the subgroup is the main thing, in these cases (IMO), and the subgroups have been divided on the franchise/continuity-family level.--[[User:Karanseraph|Karanseraph]] ([[User talk:Karanseraph|talk]]) 12:25, 25 August 2023 (EDT)
I would definitely dump the Regeneration One categories. It's just a miniseries, and not a very impactful one at that. Plus, 99% of those characters are already in Marvel G1 anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:30, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Wiki Format ==

I have a question regarding the set-up of this site. It is one of the only ones I've seen not using fandom and has a nice set up. The Gundam fandom users are talking about maybe moving off of fandom, and this site has shown promising to be a potential new site if a similar format can be created but changed to be Gundam style. I know of someone who "runs" the wiki, and would like to possibly get in contact with them to look at this and see if its plausible replacement for that. If anyone can do something like that, or if it's not possible to use this format like that, then please lmk, thnx! (PS: I'm on the discord, GrootimusPrime, if that would be easier contact as that's also how I'll probably get the Gundam wiki spokesperson to see.) [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 11:29, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
:The skin we use is just one of the standard skins that comes with Mediawiki (Monobook) with some styling applied. If they have someone who is expert at tweaking stylesheets, they should be fine doing that, though there are other standard skins they could also look at tweaking. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:05, 7 September 2023 (EDT)
::Alright thanks, Ill look into that and relay to Iserlohn. Thanks! [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]])

== Include these? ==

I feel like on fiction related pages, we should include major event sections (so readers don't have to spend 10h scouring the page for info). And maybe we also should indicate some characters' debut (and also indicate when it is the first time a char appears on that continuity, like hot rod debuting in the movie, then state which ep he debuted in the show proper, and so on so forth).[[User:Poliwag06|Poliwag06]] ([[User talk:Poliwag06|talk]]) 19:26, 7 September 2023 (EDT)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2023-09-07T15:31:11Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Wiki Format */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2023-09-07T15:29:39Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Wiki Format */ new section

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. For less wide-reaching subjects, either use articles' individual talk pages or [https://discord.gg/tfwiki our Discord server].

Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== Site Logo revamp ==

Up until now, our rotating logo on the main page tends to have a batch of logos pointing to pages from the most recent franchises and series, plus a few from older franchises that we forgot or didn't bother to remove. I'd like to rework this system a bit to have a more even balance franchise-wise. I think we should have one character for every franchise that has had a cartoon or movie (including the JG1 shows), plus one from each of the major English-language comic runs (Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 at the bare minimum). This would be a good way to demonstrate the breadth of the franchise scope of the wiki, and help drive new readers towards legacy content. (Of course, we'd still have a few extra banners based on whatever is currently running for the "Hey, I know that guy!" factor. Would love to get some thoughts on this, and potentially character suggestions for each franchise. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:59, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:I think this is a great idea! Though, I'm unsure on which characters from each show would be good to use. Like, would we go most popular/memorable characters or just some really random left field obscurities like G1 Skids who appeared in only two episodes of ''The Transformers'', just to get some more eyes on character articles from franchises newer fans may not be fully aware of? Also, would Japanese-exclusive shows include ''Go!'', ''Q-Transformers'' and ''Robotmasters''? If so, maybe even an image from ''Portal'' (the Russian show) would be worthwhile too. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 02:47, 18 December 2021 (EST)
::Obscure/minor stuff risks just being the GO! Boxes again, and we already have those. For the big logo, best to go with majorish characters from majorish media. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 07:19, 18 December 2021 (EST)
:This sounds like a great idea. We could break it down like this:
G1 Seasons 1 and 2 - Optimus Prime,
TFTM/G1 Seasons 3 and 4 - Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime,
G1 Marvel - Ratchet,
Headmasters - Fort Max,
Masterforce - Minerva,
Victory - Star Saber,
Idk if we would do Zone or any of the Japanese G1 stories that came after,
Beast Wars - Megatron,
Beast Wars II - Lio Convoy,
Beast Wars Neo - Magmatron,
RID/Car Robots - Side Burn,
I've never read Dreamwave so I don't know a good character that represents it,
Unicron Trilogy - Hot Shot,
IDW could be broken into a few character reps because of how long it went on,
IDW Furman Era - IDW Bumblebee,
IDW Post Furman - IDW Galvatron,
IDW MTMTE/LL - Nautica,
IDW RID/OP - IDW Optimus Prime,
Animated - Bulkhead,
Movies - Bumblebee,
WFC Games - Bruticus,
Prime - Starscream,
RID15 - Strongarm,
Cyberverse - Windblade,
WFC Trilogy - G1 Megatron,
And then we can have a few slots open for characters from the latest shows/movies. This list would give new readers an idea on how big the franchise truly is and how diverse the characters are. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Certainly if anyone's gonna represent CR/RiD'01, it's gonna be Sky-Byte, the breakout star of the show, and not Side Burn, the Autobot womanizer. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:26, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Funilly enough I meant to put him there lol. [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 20:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
::Dreamwave, I'd pick War Within Grimlock. Certainly Shockwave should be part of 2005 IDW since he's responsible for the whole sha-bang.--[[User:MistaTee|MistaTee]] ([[User talk:MistaTee|talk]]) 18:40, 5 January 2022 (EST)

== Splitting Cloud characters ==

So now we have some sorta adequate translations, I'm being increasingly convinced that merging them just on the basis of AVP was a mistake and that the Cloud characters should be split out for simplicity and ease of explanation. Notably, the central conceit is far more similar to TransTech than G1—and more different to G1 than Cyberverse, for instance. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:44, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I was against it then and I'm against it now. They're nothing like the TransTech; they are practically nigh identical to the G1 guys, there's a war going on in their universe, and the "central conceit" of them being multiversal guardians is more akin to Alternity than it is to TransTech, who for the majority of their fiction were at most passive observers. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I am declining to weigh in personally until I finish first pass translations but please at least pretend to look over the translated material before repeating the same arguments. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:19, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::I have looked over it. Nothing is convincing me that it's all that separate from G1 stuff. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 12:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::"War going on" describes most of Transformer fiction. What makes Cyberverse "not G1", but Cloud G1, other than convenience for us editors? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:02, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::: As far as I can tell, there is no basic divergence, aside from Grimlock's origins, from the Cloud characters to the G1 counterparts. I could point to a fair few examples on the side of Cyberverse that rank higher than that (Grimlock's presenations, the origins of the Quintessons and Sharkticons, Skywarp, Acid Storm, etc etc.) [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:23, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::We can be here all day debating over character minutiae, but the point is that Cyberverse ultimately doesn't diverge that much from G1 in its general premise as opposed to Cloud. G1 is bloated enough as it is; it doesn't hurt to take out the one thing that doesn't really fit in and make it its own thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:29, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::: Well that just comes right back to my question: what actually makes Cloud World's core conceit any different from G1 beyond the fact that they have technology that allows them dimensional travel? Because if it is just that, I simply do not believe that is enough to justify a split for characters who are almost all made to look like and have the same personality as the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:51, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I agree for the sake of wiki presentation. *Cloud* is more like *TransTech* than it is like *Alternity*. *Cloud* characters got to travel to both the G1 and MD worlds as equally separate destinations. TakaraTomy used the *Generations War for Cybertron* moulds as the *United* series, which is G1 and not Aligned by our classification. *Cloud* recycling unused *Generations Fall of Cybertron* toys in a non-Aligned setting strikes me as more evidence that we can allow *Cloud* to live on its own rather than as another G1 setting. And *Cloud* was chosen by e-HOBBY over the competing proposal *Prime Shattered Glass* which would also have been on separate wiki pages despite employing purely redeco mould choiceis. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:08, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I'm not convinced by the idea that them saying "G1 World" is an indicator of separateness when there is also designations for "BW Spacetime" and "MF Spacetime." Brawn is depicted as practically identical in appearance to G1 Brawn before being upgraded. As for the Prime Shattered Glass choice, I think it's pretty obvious why that would be completely separate from this particular issue. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:25, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::The only reason Brawn is shown as the G1 body is if you take consideration that all Cloud members are drawn according to the latest toy or model available... he got no real toy before that, the only options were either G1 Sunbow, G1 toy or the tiny Universe 2.0 Legends. Now if you remove their appearance and focus on the story, Cloud is still more akin to Transtech than Alternity, Deadlock for example even got to visit the Legends World, a Aligned world (possibly the Adventure toyline) and the Ehobby spin-off dimension (now called Precursor World) -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 17:55, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::Yes, I am aware of how Cloud repurposings work. Nothing prevents one G1 universe from visiting another. And aside from that, Japan has had barely any non-JG1 cartoon related G1 fiction; of course Cloud World, which isn't directly JG1 related, would be indicated as different; that doesn't mean that it's not able to be categorized as G1. If it were an American storyline, where we have always had multiple G1 storylines, I feel that this would not nearly be as much of a point of contention. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:05, 28 December 2021 (EST)
I'm in favor of splitting Cloud from G1. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 19:32, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:I haven't read any of the Cloud fiction myself, but I know that if our translation team collectively agrees on something based on the material available, then that's more than enough convincing for me to agree with them also. In other words, I agree with a split. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:52, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::I'd vastly prefer if we could get someone like McFeely to weigh in on this. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:56, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::i'm in favour of the split. The cloud people have enough characteristics to distonguist them from theur jg1 counterpatts.--[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 20:14, 28 December 2021 (EST)
::::Alright, seriously, what characteristics are there actually to distinguish them from G1? Because nobody has been able to give me a concrete example so far. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:::::dinobot, heavy usage of aligned designs, hellwarp --[[User:ZacAttack|ZacAttack]] ([[User talk:ZacAttack|talk]]) 21:36, 28 December 2021 (EST)
Looks like Escargon is the only voice against the split thus far. Still, I suggest the discussion should remain open longer than usual, out of courtesy for people not checking the wiki as regularly given the holiday season. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:47, 28 December 2021 (EST)
:As the translations are still ongoing, I think the most we can suggest at this time is a note regarding its a classification as a Primax setting by AVP. As more information comes to light I'm becoming increasingly convinced that it was a decision made on shaky logic. Unlike the Alternity there doesn't seem to be any evidence of these guys being derived in-universe from G1 guys. And as fiction, it's about a bunch of super advanced parallel universe monitor guys who regularly travel to other universes. If it's literally just "the cast is mostly recolours of toys with G1 fiction" then maybe we need to start talking about listing the War for Cybertron games as G1 too. [[User:Star Spangled Sam|Star Spangled Sam]] ([[User talk:Star Spangled Sam|talk]]) 01:44, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::What exactly is super-advanced about them beyond SARA, who, as far as I can tell, is a gift from some being and not even their own creation? Because otherwise, they seem to be basic Transformers. Not a single person has been able to tell me that so far, and I'd be far more willing to listen if someone would just spell out what exactly makes them so distinct that means they can't be G1. It's not about in-universe stuff, because for all intents and purposes, the characters themselves are nigh-identical to the Generation 1 characters; you look at Cloud Megatron or Cloud Rodimus and it is obvious that, irregardless of whatever the fiction might say, they are being sold as new versions of the G1 characters. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 04:29, 29 December 2021 (EST)
:::By the same logic, then why not put the FOC and WFC games under the G1 banner since it heavly takes inspirations from it, same settings (war on cybertron, the resources are becoming low, escaping to another world), closest designs to G1.. hell they were more marketed towards G1 than the Movies and Prime in mind (let's face it.. that's what Hasbro always does).. but the further Hasbro tied them to Aligned and they became their own thing.. Cloud is about that, maybe marketed as G1 at first but they became their own thing at the end -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 13:20, 29 December 2021 (EST)
::::The WFC games are their own case that, despite what you say, were always clearly a part of Hasbro's ideas for the Aligned continuity, which is something that I'm not going to bother going into here. Nothing about Cloud registers to me as being somehow so separate that it requires us splitting off things into their own pages. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:24, 29 December 2021 (EST)
Bumping for more opinions. If there's no overall opposition to it by Friday or so, I'll start splitting. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:07, 4 January 2022 (EST)
:The Cloud fiction prominently features the Cloud characters interacting with their own G1 counterparts. If nothing else, it should be split on same basis as [[Galvatron II]]. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:50, 4 January 2022 (EST)
::We've seen that with other fiction. I'm not sure why it would justify them having their whole separate pages (Galvatron II is a unique case). If that's what it takes though to not go through some inane total split, though, then fine, whatever. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:03, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:If there is to be movement on this in the immediate future I suppose I should go ahead and weigh in. As the one doing the translation I broadly agree with Riptide. While I am unmoved by philosophical discussions on what constitutes "G1-ness" or "Transtech-ness," I believe it is important to return to our guiding principle of the end user experience. Given the already convoluted nature of the material as well as the cast's consistent interaction with both various Generation 1 continuities in general and their own incarnations in specific, I believe it will be in the best interests of intelligibility for the reader to split out Cloud from Generation 1. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:25, 5 January 2022 (EST)

We are not going to pretend that these are completely separate from the Generation 1 characters. Put up a suite or a "see [X] article for more information" because it is completely ridiculous to pretend that Cloud is it's own little continuity. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:38, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I disagree. Cloud should be split off entirely. So let's have an official vote and resolve this. I say '''Split'''. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:28, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::The articles have already been split. You'll forgive me if I don't show confidence in the decision from people who blew me off when I pointed out their original reason for splitting was incorrect (that supposedly the Almanac had come out before Cloud was truly explained, but in fact it had come after almost all of it had been published). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:35, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::This discussion has been open for twelve days. An unofficial tally shows at least 7-to-1 in favor of splitting. No one else has openly agreed with your position. Given that, and that Saix announced days in advance he would start splitting if there was no further discussion, it wasn't unreasonable for him to begin. But maybe there's a different split of opinions on the Discord or wherever, so it's certainly appropriate to ask for an official vote. Beyond that...the decision is just not up to you alone. The point of democracy is for all voices to be heard, not to leave every voice feeling satisfied with the outcome. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:08, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::I have no idea what's going on in the Discord server; I'm barred from it. I certainly hope there's not more discussion going on over there, because I was told that there would be a push to have these sorts of big discussions to be on the wiki. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:42, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::With all due respect: You need to stop putting so much emphasis on the in-universe designation, which AVP itself pointed out was ultimately arbitrary. I understand that AVP and the Almanacs are important to you, but Jim is not infallible, and while I'm sure he had good reasons for calling it "Primax" that's ultimately just ''his opinion''. Cloud being "its own thing" isn't some essential property; it's a matter of how to organise the wiki in order to make the fiction clear. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:47, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:I also vote '''Split''' if only because of how better translations now has pointed out various past errors/assumptions/presumptions that needed correcting, and thus updating is needed so as to make things easier to categorize and organize here. Any wiki really worth their salt and wanting to do proper service to their respective franchises' fandoms would do the same. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 14:43, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::I ''still'' haven't got an answer for what makes Cloud so different that makes it ''need'' to be split. If there were a crossover between say, Marvel and Sunbow, nobody in their right mind we should completely separate, say, Huffer from Huffer. I'm willing to admit that I might just be missing something, but nothing in the stories themselves, as far as I can see, suggests it, beyond the aforementioned Cloud World classification, which for me is not enough of a justification. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:33, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::Neither Marvel nor Sunbow consists primarily of crossovers with another G1 continuity. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:20, 8 January 2022 (EST)
::::If that's the main avenue of justification then frankly I don't think I'm ever going to agree with that line of reasoning, but I can clearly see I'm outvoted on this. I wish there would have been more people asked before the split was done, though, because I can see that this could very easily end up being another whole "retitling things to FSRLF" situation. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:00, 8 January 2022 (EST)
:::We functionally split out Marvel and Sunbow versions for a lot of characters anyway. We're at the point where we draw lines based on how easy/hard it is for the information to be conveyed, not whether it's G1 enough or not. We think Cloud, as its own fullblown storyline/premise, falls on the side of "it's easier to read and parse it if they get their own shebang" instead of burying them in overlong G1 articles. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:11, 8 January 2022 (EST)

I'm not gonna argue further on this because I recognize it's a losing battle, but I think that the line of thought of "this one bit of media shouldn't be kept in an article because it won't get out there otherwise" sets a bad precedent that could easily be misused in the future. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:39, 8 January 2022 (EST)

Should the Cloud toys also be removed from the G1 character's pages? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 09:21, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:Yeah no, It vould be too convoluted, example look at the redirections [[Transformers_Cloud#Toys|there]]... where should each toy be redirected?? + the fiction regarding said toys has their own page now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 10:58, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::...What on earth are you talking about? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:16, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::Srry I misread his question.. I thought he meant "added" not "removed" from the G1 pages...
:Not entirely certain what you're asking, but the eight toys in the Cloud toyline (plus Deadlock) have already been moved to the Cloud pages in conjunction with the fiction, as they solely represent Cloud characters. The remaining Cloud characters repurpose existing toys. The writeups for those toys remain on the original pages with duplicates on the repurpose pages, as is standard practice. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:54, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::I mean, for example, [[Blaster_(G1)/toys#Generations|G1 Blaster's toy page]] has FOC Blaster on it, due to FOC Blaster being repurposed as Cloud Blaster. Should that repurposing be removed from G1 Blaster's page, since Cloud Blaster isn't considered to be G1 Blaster anymore? [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 12:34, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::I believe yeah, the splitting between G1 and Cloud was recent (done last month) so there's still leftover traces on the wiki, if you can take your time to remove them why not -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 16:44, 17 February 2022 (EST)
::::Ok, good. I just wanted to check I wasn't missing anything. [[User:Omegatron|Omegatron]] ([[User talk:Omegatron|talk]]) 17:13, 17 February 2022 (EST)
:::::Oh! Yes those should go, good eye! -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 10:52, 18 February 2022 (EST)

==Split Movie Character Toy lists?==
Just as what happened with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Megatron (G1)/toys]], I suggest we split certain Movie toy pages such as [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys]] as both pages have become excessively bloated. I suggest we separate them by having the original Bay film toylines (07, ROFT, DOTM, AOE, TLK, and any pre SS sub lines) have their own page and starting a new one that Contains SS, BB, and the upcoming ROTB toylines, alongside any future movie toylines until the new page itself becomes heavily bloated [[User:Paladin Denn|Paladin Denn]] ([[User talk:Paladin Denn|talk]]) 18:43, 5 January 2022 (EST)
:Sorry for being this late but given that ROTB toys are apparently coming this spring, I suggest you split like one part contains all 5 movies while the other starts with SS and BB until now -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 15:26, 22 January 2022 (EST)

== Multi-part comic stories ==

For old Marvel UK multi-part stories like [[Target: 2006]] or [[Time Wars]], we put the whole thing under a single article, but for modern-day ones like each storyline in [[Transformers (2019 comic)]] we have a separate article for each issue. Is there a good reason for the discrepancy, or are the old ones just an artefact of a time in the wiki's history that didn't follow our current standards? --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 09:36, 22 January 2022 (EST)
:The thing with that is that it's a result of how the UK comic was written; there'd be about 8 or so pages per issue, meaning that we'd have a lot of little articles that are easier just grouped together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 10:16, 22 January 2022 (EST)
::Makes sense, although that's essentially what we have for [[The Transformers: Autocracy]] et al., which are also 8 pages per issue. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 15:38, 23 January 2022 (EST)
:::The difference with Autocracy lies mostly in that pretty much all of those issues have a beginning and end, and also have different titles. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:47, 23 January 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I always thought our headings on the Marvel UK story pages ''were'' the issue titles. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 01:21, 24 January 2022 (EST)

== Composite characters and page transclusion ==

This is something I've had the idea about for a while, but I've finally had a look at how the markup for it works and have come up with a proposal. The pages for [[Greatshot]] and [[Sixshot (G1)]] contain an entirely duplicated section set around the ''Victory'' cartoon owing to a retcon that occurred in the much later Legends manga. This is not an ideal solution because, among other reasons, any edits to Greatshot's cartoon section necessitates making the same edit to Sixshot's section.

Over in my sandbox, I've whipped up the page [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test]], containing only the events that happened to both Greatshot and the retconned Sixshot. By inserting <nowiki>{{:User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot-test}}</nowiki> into the relevant parts of Greatshot and Sixshot's pages (also sandboxed [[User:TheLastGherkin/Greatshot|here]] and [[User:TheLastGherkin/Sixshot|here]]), the same information is automatically transcluded. And clicking "Edit" on, for example, the Legends manga section on Sixshot's page automatically redirects the user to editing that portion of Greatshot-test, thus updating all three pages at once.

If we go forward with this, I can see it being used for other characters in similar situations, like BWU [[Wolfang (Maximal)#Beast Wars: Uprising|Wolfang]], or Unite Warriors [[Roller (IDW)#Unite Warriors|Roller]], or putting the lion's share (pun intended) of [[Victory Leo]]'s fictional appearances back onto Victory Leo's page. With refinements, like say a <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> explanation for what each subpage is for the layperson ("This page covers the events of the Japanese Generation 1 continuity, where Greatshot and Sixshot are the same individual...") and maybe a [[:Category:Transcluded pages]], I could see this really working, and it could probably be bent into shape for repurposed toys as well. [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 12:48, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:If we cannot avoid this sort of duplicated information entirely, this does seem like a pretty ideal solve to mitigate the constant peril of copy editing flubs maintaining multiple copies of one write-up entails. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:56, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Is there any way to get rid of the "This section is transcluded from another page. To edit it, please edit the transcluded page." notice? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:::There is! I just put that there manually while experimenting and also to make clear where the transcluded section is. In practice, since clicking "Edit" on a transcluded section takes you to the source page, a notice like that can be relegated to a commented-out note for editors who click to Edit the entire page (or a larger section). [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 16:16, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::::Oh, I thought it was automatic software stuff. Whoops, never mind. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:22, 10 February 2022 (EST)
::Also, this works for fiction, but I see it running into issues when it comes to toys. (Thinking of Sixshot/Greatshot, Sixshot always gets toys first with Greatshot as the retool later in the same line.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:14, 10 February 2022 (EST)
:I've made some tweaks to my sandboxes, including standardising the transcluded page. Are there any objections before I start implementing this (in fiction sections)? [[User:TheLastGherkin|TheLastGherkin]] ([[User talk:TheLastGherkin|talk]]) 07:10, 12 February 2022 (EST)
::I sense that there could be an issue in the future where, for whatever reason, these sorts of characters diverge back into separate ones, whether it be through alternate continuities or whatever. Also, in the case of Greatshot, I feel like at the very beginning of his entry, there has to be something different to set up the Sixshot retcon, and just having the same opening text doesn't do that. 08:57, 12 February 2022 (EST)
:::His toy bio that mentions Sixshot as a separate person could go there. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:21, 16 February 2022 (EST)
:This could also be applied to Primus and Vector Sigma for their 3H comics sections since they are one and the same in that continuity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 26 February 2022 (EST)

== What makes a franchise? Or, does "Precursor World" exist? ==

So, browsing around the wiki, as one does, and came across this: [[Precursor World continuity|Precursor World (franchise)]]

Now, I'm not as well-versed in the Legends + Selects comics, so maybe this is incorrect, but to the best of my understanding, the branding "Precursor World" doesn't exist — this story was told across Generations Selects and Legends, and no toy or story was ever released branded as "Precursor World". It doesn't seem like the name even existed until pretty recently.

This...isn't a franchise, right? It's a long-running story told across various medium, but it's not a franchise, and calling it such implies something that isn't true.

Particularly, the idea that there is a "toyline" seems a bit of a stretch. There are only three listed "official" toys, but none of them were released under the "Precursor World" branding (which near as I can tell does not exist) and the list of "repurposings" seems almost entirely just "this toy/characters showed up in this story" which doesn't seem like anything's been repurposed to me. The IDW comics used a bunch of existing/prior toys, but that doesn't create a toyline of that comic series.

Am I off base here? --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:16, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:Okay there's a lot to unpack here but to begin with every single one of those toys is being repurposed as a separate object/character in a separate setting a la, for example, [[Green Tender Convoy]] and the [[Matrix Buster|Red Matrix]]. Most of the unnamed crowdfillers are minimized to footnotes on existing articles to avoid generating a bazillion stubs. The closest analogue I can give you is the [[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|toyline]] for the original ''Timelines'' iteration of Shattered Glass. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 12:35, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I'll grant that those indeed seem to be repurposings, but the vast majority of toys on this list merely link to the toy entry for the toy on the regular character's page. I don't think having a list of members of these groups is bad (it's good!) but I don't think this is a toyline. Again, crucially, Shattered Glass has a brand, with the official toys released under that brand, whereas precursor world does not. IDW repurposed WfC/FoC/aligned toys as G1 characters, but this didn't create a virtual toyline associated with that comic. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 12:46, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:::Arguably Shattered Glass toys weren't really released under their own brand either until the recent Hasbro Pulse stuff, until then the figures were all just released under the ''Timelines'' banner or whatever else Fun Pub used at the time - the idea of a singular "Shattered Glass toyline" was just as much of a constructed idea until like a year ago. I can't say "franchise" and "toyline" ''aren't'' slightly more non-literal labels than usual in this context, but I do think there's value in having the info collated like this, and I can't think of ''better'' labels that aren't something stupid like "(meta franchise)". [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:57, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::::To be honest, I'm inclined to agree re: Shattered Glass, and would not be opposed to restructuring the toyline page to delineate between the "Shatted Glass Collection" and "Shattered Glass toys released via Timelines" or something. Shattered Glass does, however, have a leg up on Precursor World given that every official SG toy was branded as "Shattered Glass" in some way, though perhaps not as a "franchise". The box set is called Shattered Glass, and every official toy was called "Shattered Glass". There's some nuance there, of course, as arguably those are part of the character's names ala "Prime Universe Bulkhead" is still a Legacy toy, not a Prime toy, but I'd be happy to have a debate around the best way to frame Shattered Glass stuff given those discrepancies. Allll that said, Shattered Glass is today a franchise, but there have been zero anythings released with Precursor World branding or labeling. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] ([[User talk:Spectre|talk]]) 13:06, 3 March 2022 (EST)

::I don't think the page should be removed or even severely modified, but I do think the terminology is flawed. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 16:02, 3 March 2022 (EST)
Precursor World is definitely not a "franchise" and should not have that label. The model to look at here is the [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] article, which gives an overview of the thing, lists it's stories and toys, but does not use the "franchise" label, and doesn't ''need'' to use it. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 15:07, 3 March 2022 (EST)

Yeah, no, this is not a "franchise", and the page should not be labeled as such. It is a ''setting''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)

:I like the solution that AzimuthAcolyte gave on Discord: move "Precursor World (franchise)" to "Precursor World continuity" (with all uses of the word "franchise" changed to "continuity") and "Precursor World (toyline)" to "List of Precursor World toys". Simple and elegant. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:55, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Seconded.[[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
:::That seems reasonable to me. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::::I'm for that. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 19:04, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::That's fair. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:59, 3 March 2022 (EST)
::Works for me, somewhat obviously! If there are no major objections over the next day or two I'll get those moved over. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:48, 4 March 2022 (EST)
::Ohhh, That works -[[User:MahXyme|MahXyme/MahXymal]] ([[User talk:MahXyme|talk]]) 18:19, 4 March 2022 (EST)
Alrighty as it's been a day or so with no objections I am proceeding with the moves away from (franchise) and (toyline). --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 18:06, 5 March 2022 (EST)

== Episode Order ==
It's come to my attention that all cartoons have been listed in production order '''except''' Beast Wars, RID01, RB, and RBA. While I understand production order is not available for the latter two I suggest we change the first two for consistency's sake - Unless I'm wrong and they are ''not'' all in production order. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:48, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:We're not touching Beast Wars. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
::Beast Wars and RiD'01 not being in production order are accepted exceptions to the norm. We leave them as they are for reasons specific to each. But as for RB and RBA, we do have an idea of the production orders for each, but we instead use a weird mixture of production order and airing order that is consistent with no other series we cover. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 13:53, 16 March 2022 (EDT)
:OK quick correction to myself, turns out that it's all supposed to be chronological order; That just happens to be production order for everything but those four. Sorry! [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 14:09, 16 March 2022 (EDT)

==Help with statues / figurines==
I wrote up many of the [[Super7#Transformers ULTIMATES!|ULTIMATES!]] entries, simply because no one else had. I don't actually care about that sort of merch and it ended up being me paraphrasing from press releases and copying their pics. Just today I learned there are 3 waves of TF [[Minimates]] that have no coverage here at all. It definitely seems like a lot of high-end statues are falling through the cracks as well. Is there someone who is willing to make that stuff more of a project? If not, could we perhaps put out a call for submissions on our Twitter feed? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:47, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I fear this is just... going to continue to be an Issue. The wiki is a labor of love, and the brand is at a point where there's a lot of stuff out there... well, that a lot of people probably aren't gonna love. Hasbro's moichandized the everloving HELL out of TF over the years, with more and more niche "G1" stuff that seemingly would never appeal to people for whom G1 is the big center of their fandom. I mean I just found some Micro Figures merch at a Big Lots, I've never seen these before, and I don't know offhand if they're on the wiki. They're kind of a nothing. It's hard to keep up. Same for stuff like phone games.<br>
:I don't know if there's an actual solution. ''Someone'' certainly needs to step up, but I kinda got my plate overflowing with my own pet (ha ha) niche chunk of TF history to exhaustively document, never mind dealing with stuff I am almost aggressively disinterested in. (Seriously what little Minimates experience I have left me with a worse impression of them than I already had from their hideous aesthetic alone.) Asking Twitter for people more well-versed in this stuff might could help for phone games, but... IS there anyone into Minimates as a whole Brand and not just in a "I get the licenses I like" sense to fill in gaps? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:20, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::Once I had composed the thought "Hey, it's bad that there are a lot of Minimates out with us not covering them at all," it was too late, and I just had to burn 40 minutes on some cut-and-paste writups for the entire series. That's one "solution," I guess, but even ''my'' obsessive-compulsiveness can only go so far. Editing this site really should not feel like a job... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:18, 22 March 2022 (EDT)

==Implementing galleries==
I propose making galleries on character pages a wiki standard. The current mainpic + show screenshots format doesn't cover images like character models (Unless used as a mainpic), concept art, appearances in posters or toy murals, comic book covers, etc.
Other wikis have successfully implemented galleries, I think the Hololive Wiki galleries in particular work well as an example https://hololive.wiki/wiki/Tokino_Sora#Media.
This gallery header covers character models and has suites for concept art and even character uses in collaborative merch.[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:27, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Seconded. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 13:30, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:I would say some version of this concept for a section has merit, if nothing else as a solve for major characters with several prominent character models, perhaps as a fairly unobtrusive method of documenting alt modes, etc etc. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:38, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::I'm for this. As a good example, the BotBots characters all look to have been radically redesigned for the show. By default the current standard is to keep the original stock art look will appear as the mainpic each page. Having a gallery option would be a good way to show both versions. [[User:ParadoxFactor|ParadoxFactor]] ([[User talk:ParadoxFactor|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:Oppose. There is no reason for these to take up space on the character pages. Would not oppose separate "gallery" pages. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:57, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::If we are open to workshopping implementation I do agree a separate "gallery page" in the style we already use for more conceptual articles here and there would probably be cleaner. --[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 14:06, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I love the gallery idea. There's a question of how much to include, and the exact implementation details of how to portion out overflow if there's too many images. It's a shame there isn't some way to generate them automatically just by tagging images with the characters they depict. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:24, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::A separate page seems like it would be overkill for someone like [[Flamewar (G1)|Flamewar]], who would only take a few images to cover appearances not already covered by fiction section images. I assume if a small gallery was to be used on a character's page, it would be near the bottom at any rate? --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:22, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Yes, at the bottom would be ideal, no different from any of the galleries on our artist pages. IMO, separate gallery pages should only be used in instances where the number of images can't be comfortably fit onto one or two lines. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:33, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::I agree with Cyberlink. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:29, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
:::Fair; Using gallery sections for those with few images and gallery pages for those with many images might make sense. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 15:46, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
::::See [[Megatron (G1)/gallery|G1 Megatron]] and [[Megatron (BW)/gallery|BW Megatron]] for examples of characters with enough images to justify separate gallery pages. [[Rhinox (BW)/gallery|BW Rhinox]], as it is now, is probably right on the line between "split it off" and "stick it at the bottom of the page". -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 15:58, 21 March 2022 (EDT)
I think choosing between a header at the bottom or a suite depending on image amount is a good solution instead of sticking to just one method.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 11:29, 22 March 2022 (EDT)
:Yeah, I think that would be good, as has been pointed out earlier. I do have to ask - because sometimes the artistic difference between characters in comics is slight with details only a little different in shape or kibble - would those fall under gallery stuff? Because they're effectively different per artist interpretation. I would be inclined to say yes, because effectively a different artist's rendition is shown usually of the same character without having reformatted or taken up armor or so forth. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 10:56AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I am very much on board with this idea. Having a gallery section or page depending on the character would be great, especially for characters like Flamewar who have a extremely prominent new design that we can't use as a main pic and for characters who have tons of designs, especially in the case of IDW where some characters change bodies every Tuesday. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:35 AM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I think artistic liberty vs. new design would have to be on a case by case basis. Burcham's art of the BW cast wouldn't count for gallery purposes, in my opinion. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:08, 27 March 2022 (EDT)
:::I think it would be cool to have art of the same designs in different artstyles, but I agree it should probably be on case by case basis. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 6:17 PM 27 March 2022 (PDT)
::I currently have a sandbox to test galleries using Tigatron https://tfwiki.net/wiki/User:MrRald/sandbox/Tigatron#Gallery. I'd appreciate any feedback on things to add or change! [[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 23:44, 1 April 2022 (EDT)
::: I like what you have so far, I think we should maybe add a few more versions of Tigatron, like his different comic appearances and such. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]])

: Now that we're actually going ahead with this... I have to ask, what are the galleries actually ''for''? When we were discussing this I was under the impression that they were going to be for "behind-the-scenes" images that wouldn't otherwise have a place on the wiki, like out-of-universe character models, character concept art, or full-body renders from stuff like guidebooks. Right now, a lot of the galleries just feel redundant, given that they're just a bunch of cartoon and comic screengrabs taken from the relevant section and removed of all context... and a lot of them, like [[Blaster (G1)/gallery]] are just completely empty. The fact that every character ''can'' have a gallery does not mean that all of them ''should'', especially if most of them are just going to be redundant or mostly empty. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 18:57, 4 August 2022 (EDT)
::Agreed, I feel like this is bloating the wiki and toeing over the line of our vague remit. Despite having a LOT of images, we're not an image repository. Also, a lot of these could probably be done as a single subsection of the characters' mainpage under below "Notes" of whatever rather than as separate mostly-blank-space sub-pages full of sub-headers with like two images total in them. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 06:11, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, I didn't think they'd be separate pages. What I was expecting was whichever of the cartoon character model, Dreamwave profile art or package art weren't being used for the mainpic, plus behind-the-scenes stuff, plus maybe extra bits from artbooks, covers, or sources like that. Stuff that can't just be slotted into a fiction writeup—and I don't mean "comic crops we don't have room for because equivalent/better panels are already in the fiction section". —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:35, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
My intentions for the gallery pages were for users to actually do the work in uploading character models, renders, et al., not dumping whatever cartoon screencaps we already have in fiction sections. And separate pages would be on a case by case basis. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:46, 5 August 2022 (EDT)
I don't see the point, honestly. It seems like pretty much any significant body a significant enough character has will appear on the wiki at some point in a comic panel or a toy info image or a screenshot or something, somewhere. I'm not sure this is a problem that needs solving. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] ([[User talk:Hooper X|talk]]) 20:36, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

===G1 model images===
To branch off of this topic, how would we feel about using [https://www.allspark.com/forums/threads/the-most-accurately-coloured-g1-animation-models-online.301/ DM's coloured models] for the G1 cartoon model galleries? The last time I brought this topic up (on Discord), some people were against the idea, due to them being fan-colour works and not official, but a few newer developments have been made since I last brought it up.

To clarify, for those unaware of DM's works:

* All of the line art is original and unedited (unlike several of the models in ''The Ark'' books, which had been tweaked, altered and traced by Bill Forster to make them presentable for publishing).
* The models are the final ones used throughout the majority of the cartoon (in Toei-animated episodes at least). Note: several of the models in ''The Ark'' books we have also come to discover were unfinalized ones, due to the internet and more stuff being made public since what was originally found around 2007—not to discredit Jim and Bill's hard work in putting those books together, it's just some of what we knew then isn't entirely correct now.
* And finally, the colours (which was the big thing some people were against). Unlike the handful of fan-coloured models that were originally uploaded to the wiki in the past, which eye dropped colors straight from poor quality episode masters, DM's colours are based directly on Toei and Marvel Productions' model colour guides, colour codes, charts, colour chips found by a member of the ''Dragon Ball'' fandom (who has scanned and digitized said colour chips) and other original production materials, meaning that the colours DM has used are all coming from the ''original'' original source.

An alternative Mr. Rald had brought up on Discord is that we could possibly look at using the uncoloured model line art instead, if people feel strongly against using fan-coloured works, but I think in order to present the G1 character models fully as references, you kinda need the colours included, especially given how poor the cartoon production was, what with all the animation errors (even in Toei episodes) etc, making it hard to gather decent references for the characters, which is mostly what these galleries are for.

Also, for the record, DM has given us permission to use his colourings on the wiki.

Let me know you thoughts. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:39, 6 April 2022 (EDT)

: I personally think that we should use DM's coloured models, they are as official as coloured models are going to get, and it's not like DM just randomly picked and chose want colours to use as FOCS said. We could just have the model and the colour guide, but at that point, just have the model sheet coloured. I would however be in favour of the uncoloured models with colour guides and the sheets with the fully coloured models to cover all our bases. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 11:16 AM, 6 April 2022 (PDT)

== Making a page for the Unreal Engine? ==

War for Cybertron, Dark of the Moon (PS3/X360), Fall of Cybertron, and Rise of the Dark Spark all run on Unreal Engine, specifically Unreal Engine 3. Why isn't there a page for it. It could have good info on those wanting to mod those games.

Unrelated, but there's a server revival project being worked on for those games. Right now it's only on PC, and progress is slow, but should we include info for it in the pages for those games? It's not official btw, there's a Discord server for it and a few YouTube vids about it.[[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]]) 17:29, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not sure what information we could put on an Unreal Engine page that would be useful to modders. An Unreal Engine page would be general info on the engine and a list of games which use it. Diving into technical details isn't really something we do. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:52, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I think linking to {{W|Unreal Engine|Wikipedia}} should be sufficient. That's what I did when I ''unfortunately'' had to document the Funko NFTs. [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 19:11, 24 March 2022 (EDT)
:I don't see what value there would be to this. Unreal warrants, at ''most'', a mention on the relevant game pages. We don't have pages for every program used to make every piece of TF media/product. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:33, 24 March 2022 (EDT)

== Category for characters with no established gender ==

So I just had this idea and decided to share it here because why not? We have categories for female characters and variable gender characters but not for characters with undetermined genders. Many BotBots for example don't have genders and I think this category could be a useful way of grouping them together. And who knows, maybe someday it could even help official creators specifically looking for genderless characters to establish a gender to them. Does anyone agree to implement this category? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:06, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:This concept has been discussed before in the past, and generally the feeling has been that this would be a bit too much like the wiki actively trying to shape canon. Don't get me wrong, creators taking advantage of characters with no official pronouns is neat and I'm all for it, but IMO the wiki shouldn't directly serve up them. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 19:26, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
::Interestingly, I can't seem to find a prior community portal discussion about this matter, though I know it has come up on the Discord server more than once, to the conclusion Jalaguy mentioned. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:35, 3 April 2022 (EDT)
:::Just to clarify, I thought of "official creators using it" as a quick example in favor of the category, but now I can totally see how it sounded like trying to influence canon too much. Regardless, I'd still be down for having the category if we agreed on it being useful for any other reason. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 19:51, 3 April 2022 (EDT)

== Category for trans characters ==

We had a productive conversation about the no established gender thing on the wiki discord and it made me realize that there should be a transgender category for the five established trans characters that there are so far, Arcee (who has established trans characterization on two different pages), Howlback, Arcadis, Anode, and Lug. Jalaguy mentioned that this has been discussed and people thought it was a good idea but it hasn't happened, so I just thought I'd ask for go-ahead on this. I figured that transgender rather than just trans could be a good word to use for this, due to them all being people who have gender. The term trans is merely more broad and could cover different kinds of transness than that or aesthetic stuff that is similar to gender, but we have no confirmation of being there yet in canon. Thus I think transgender would be the most accurate and desirable term here, and the umbrella trans can always be tacked on later if we need to. --[[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 5:40PM 3 April 2022 (PDT) (edited 5:48PM PDT for clarity)
:Seconded. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 5:53 PM, 3 April 2022 (PDT)
::Since there are no objections, I'll go ahead. :3 -- [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 4:19AM, 11 April 2022 (PDT)

==Streamlining disambig headers (revist)==
So I remember this conversation from last year about streamlining the disambiguation headers. I checked back on the talk page discussion (link to said discussion archive here https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal/Archive69#Streamlining_disambig_headers) to see what happened and even though there was a lot of people who liked the idea with some who did not, it did not seem like it went anywhere. I thought I'd see if anyone else would like to revisit this idea as I feel like this would streamline things more, especially for Movie and Aligned and maybe a bit of UT especially for the guys who show up in all 3 shows or those don't have other bots who are completely different sharing the same name within the trilogy. -- [[User:ComfyBlanket|ComfyBlanket]] ([[User:ComfyBlanket|talk]]) 9:01 PM, 12 April 2022 (PDT)

== Disambig tags and suites for Masterforce paired pages ==

We need to balance out our page titles for ''Masterforce'' human + transtector character pairs. Right now we have among extant pages and tentative redlinks:

Bullhorn (G1), Cab (human), Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (human), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (robot), [something], Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (robot)

I propose either we do human gets no species tag with the robot getting a species tag as the splinter page:

Bullhorn (G1) | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

or the human does get a species tag to equally balance with the robot:

Bullhorn (G1)/human | Bullhorn (G1)/robot

This would eliminate the need to have any longer-within-parentheses tag like "Minerva (G1 robot)" which would be affected by future continuities which may not yet have happened. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 15:55, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
:I would prefer either the human gets the "default" continuity tag with no further disambiguation or (human)/(robot) (with needed variations for disambiguation). The slash system is ugly to me. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:59, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::I'm of the opinion that the slash option for both feels the most fair. While the human versions were the first and thus feel the most deserving of the "default" tag, the robot versions are likely to become more commonplace and relevant as newer fiction dips its toes into using more Japanese characters. On a similar note, it was decided not to give the "BW" tag to either BW Silverbolt out of fairness, so while a similar "human/robot" concept could be implemented, there is the problem with Minerva having an Animated counterpart who is also a robot, Cancer having an Animated counterpart who is also a human, there being a Kre-O Bullhorn who is also a robot, a G.I. Joe Lightfoot who is also a human, and an IDW Wilder who is also a human. "Minerva (Headmaster)" also doesn't work for the G1 robot since the human was a Headmaster too. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 16:29, 22 April 2022 (EDT)
::The slash system may not be entirely visually pleasant, but I consider having "Minerva (G1 robot)" in parentheses worse. In my proposal, all transtector characters would be unified symmetrically as "(robot)". [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:47, 24 April 2022 (EDT)

Here are three proposals to unify the namespaces:

Possibility 1: humans get nothing and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1), Cab, Cancer (G1), Clouder, Ginrai, Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1), Minerva (G1), Ranger, Road King, Wilder (G1)

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 2: both humans and robots get slashes

Bullhorn (G1)/human, Cab/human, Cancer (G1)/human, Clouder/human, Ginrai/human, Shūta Gō/human, Lightfoot (G1)/human, Minerva (G1)/human, Ranger/human, Road King/human, Wilder (G1)/human

Bullhorn (G1)/robot, Cab/robot, Cancer (G1)/robot, Doubleclouder, Ginrai/robot, Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1)/robot, Minerva (G1)/robot, Ranger/robot, Road King/robot, Wilder (G1)/robot

Possibility 3: both humans and robots get parentheses

Bullhorn (G1 human), Cab (human), Cancer (G1 human), Clouder, Ginrai (human), Shūta Gō, Lightfoot (G1 human), Minerva (G1 human), Ranger (human), Road King (human), Wilder (G1 human)

Bullhorn (G1 robot), Cab (robot), Cancer (G1 robot), Doubleclouder, Ginrai (robot), Goshooter, Lightfoot (G1 robot), Minerva (G1 robot), Ranger (robot), Road King (robot), Wilder (G1 robot)

Thoughts? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:12, 12 June 2022 (EDT)
:Isn't Option 1 one basically just a slightly different version of what we're already using and what you're proposing to change in the first place? Anyway, like I said above, Option 2 is the most fair between the human and robot depictions (as Option 1 feels like we're saying "The human versions are the more important versions" when it's the robot versions that are more likely to get any representation in future comic appearances), and it reduces the amount of multiple-word parentheses tags that we usually dislike using and try to avoid as best we can (which is the exact opposite of what Option 3 is proposing). Though, drop the "/human" from Clouder and Shūta Gō since their names already differ from "Doubleclouder" and "Goshooter". No need to complicate those two. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 08:45, 12 June 2022 (EDT)

==Transformers: Armada (Trading Card Collection)==
I recently discovered that Fleer published a Trading Card collection in 2003 for Transformers Armada.
I've documented everything I could find about it - including an Energon (preview) Scorponok card I got from a local retro game store.
[[Iacon0/Sandbox]]
Is it alright if I roll this out? [[User:Iacon0|Iacon0]] ([[User talk:Iacon0|talk]]) 12:52, 1 May 2022 (EDT)

== WFC/FOC Reenergized Server Project info? ==

Info: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO5yzrWE9yVT56Rgxl9oqntVysxWr2k7e

Basically, it brings back the multiplayer servers for the Cybertron games, PC and PS3. Should this be talked about in the pages for those games? (ROTDS and ROTF aren't online at the moment, and 360 versions won't have support) [[User:Trashatron|Trashatron]] ([[User talk:Trashatron|talk]])}
:It's not official, so no, it shouldn't. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:54, 27 June 2022 (EDT)

== Handling of "former GoBots" and "former Diaclone" characters on the wiki ==

So recently we've been seeing multiple characters that had previously been portrayed as dimension-hoppers from non-Transformers realities, but using Transformers designs — [[Bug Bite (GoBots)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]] and [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]] — appearing as "normal" Transformers ([[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]]). There's some heavy dispute over whether we should put them on the same page or split them out (e.g. "since the GoBots Bug Bite isn't ''originally'' from a G1 universe, he shouldn't go on the G1 Bug Bite page), so I thought we should probably have a centralised place to put together a comprehensive set of standards.

My take, personally, is that GoBots and Diaclone are *not* continuity families, they're their own properties that happen to cross over with Transformers, and so shouldn't be split on that basis. I feel that Burn Out and Lift-Ticket, regardless of them being portrayed as Diaclone mecha in their initial appearance, are the same basic concept as the likes of Road Rage and Tigertrack — "Transformers versions" of existing Diaclone toys and decoes. It helps that [[Spin-Out (G1)]] inherently blurs the lines, having first appeared as a "normal" Transformer ''before'' he was portrayed as a former Diaclone mech.

For the GoBots characters, I'd frankly be tempted to go even more radical and just merge ''all'' of them — put all the [[Cy-Kill (disambiguation)|Cy-Kill]] cameos on one page, like we do for other external property characters. Even in the edge cases like [[Fracture (Movie)|Fracture]], there's the precedent of her actually being intended as just ''being'' the GoBot. It feels a lot simpler to me than the headache of having Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, and Bug Bite, the ''other'' white Bumblebee who appeared in G1 stories, having separate pages on a technicality. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:57, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Hard disagree on GoBots. By virtue of covering the Scioli comic in full, we have a GoBots continuity family to put them in. I say keep the ones who are explicitly GoBots at (GoBots), and put the ones who are Transformers (or ambiguous) at their respective continuity families. Basically, what we're doing for Bug Bite, do for all of them. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:23, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:I don't agree on movie-Fracture in specific and the mass-merge of ''all'' GoBots-based characters in general. Fracture's a movie-universe character who premiered in a movie-based toyline and appeared in movie-timeline fiction. "The toy was originally conceived as" holds very little water there in light of all the rest of that. I'm not wild about merging characters from different continuity families (aka "major franchise umbrellas", the point of that divide was always less "fiction-detail based" and more "real-world Hasbro/Takara starting over based" as an organizational tool), as that leans heavily towards the Wikipedia style "just lump 'em all together" manner that... doesn't really work for our scope. There's SG Bug Bite and Crasher too, I don't think they should go under a giant singular page for the character concept.
: But ''in general'' I agree with keeping stuff like Lift-Ticket and Burn Out together because the distinction is really too nitpicky to be useful. If we get an EarthSpark Lift-Ticket who is a red Hoist-like bot, then they can go on a separate page because "new major franchise umbrella" gives a decent degree of separation. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:25, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: Oh, well, the SG GoBots are an obvious exception. If it's a "mirror universe" I feel like it should never share a page because the point is that it's the opposite.
:: That said, there are other nuances I admit I skimmed over — stuff like Wings Universe Cop-Tur, who's based on the original but is a secret genius and a good guy, I'm not sure he should be merged in. At the same time, though, splitting the Bug Bites feels disingenuous, and I'm not sure whether there's a good middle ground between "split 'em all" and "merge 'em all". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:44, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I also agree there isn't really a good middle ground. But here's the thing: If GoBots wasn't a factor and it was just G1 and Cyberverse, we wouldn't be having this conversation. At the end of the day, they're from another IP, but they're also genuine Transformers characters, and thus they should remain split like other Transformers characters. And that includes treating the genuine GoBot incarnations as separate entities. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:51, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:::I am, honestly, not sold either way on splitting/merging re: the "very distinctly the Tonka GoBots who originated from the Tonka GoBots franchise". I feel that there are '''''definitely''''' some bots that should not be merged with the Tonkas, by virtue of being from different continuity-families/hub-franchises (bots from the live action movies and Cyberverse, for example, should really stay separate). I'm less concerned about "in-fiction origin" because that's a clusterfuck all its own since 1984 best just left alone and we already disregard that for like Nebulans and stuff anyway, though I'd also argue that like, it should be taken into consideration the diff between an homage and an iteration (I'd argue ''Timelines'' Cop-Tur is the former and probably shouldn't be merged). But even just looking at them from the real-world staggered integration of the franchises, GoBots ARE a weird edge case (whaaat, something Scioli was involved in got weird? ''nnnoooOOOOOooooo'') and it kinda feels off to not treat them as a separate thing given their ultimate origins. But like, they are, functionally, "G1" characters as far as "how they were brought to TF" goes in the real world, and I'm not convinced that splitting out WFC Bug Bite is really a good idea or terribly helpful. So like, I dunno. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 02:06, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::::And then there's the ''very'' unique case of GoBots Stretch having been given a retroactive backstory of being born in the world of Transformers Animated before he crossed dimensions and became a GoBot. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:23, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::::If anything, Stretch is a Transformer pretending to be a GoBot.
:::::The criteria that keep this wiki running and readable have always had some smudgy bits, and if you stare too long at any of them pretty soon all one sees is the smudge, not the dividing line or even the story itself. Cyberverse and Prime are each ''basically'' a retelling of G1, and if they didn't have a few features we've accepted as clear dividers from "real" G1, they could have gone within G1 just as much as the IDW comics have. The divisions are necessary to keep information from being a useless, unstructured, unnavigable mess; hopefully we can draw the lines in a way that comes to require the fewest exceptions later. '''My thoughts''': when there's a Bug Bite whose origin is explicitly "I'm not a Transformer, I'm hiding among them, creatures like myself find Transformers to be nauseating uncanny valley aliens," then that's a pretty extreme division, more extreme than many others we've been holding up for years without controversy, and should stay very much separate from any other Bug Bites who are just plain ol' white car Transformers. The various Cy-Kill cameos in G1 and Armada should stay separate, just because that's how we handle other hi-and-die cameos across firm storyline borders (Animated Overlord, SG Krok). I agreed at first with splitting the Burnouts/Lift-Tickets, but if it is really causing a huge dilemma I do not object to re-merging them. Each pair exists within the G1 storytelling universe. It is not essential that we build 2 different pages for G1 universe Lift-Tickets where one of them is a Diaclone mech and the other looks just like it and comes from someplace called Diaclone. We could paper that over with a "Note" explanation. The really important part is that both the Burn-Out and Lift-Ticket cases must get the same resolution. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 05:10, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:I vote for split. I regret ever pushing for merging similar concepts around the time of ''Ask Vector Prime'' because a decade ago this wouldn't have been a question, it would have been settled with "obvious they're different characters." [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:38, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:Strongly in favor of putting the Diaclones back together so long as they remain essentially G1 guys. Especially since we now have ''two nigh-identical Burn-Out pages that differ only by which sliver of fiction section they possess''. Moderately in favor of putting all the dumb Cy-Kill cameos together because, like, it's only moderately funny to split out Cy-Kill (Armada) on a technicality. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:47, 29 July 2022 (EDT)
:: I'm going to stay out of the Bugbite / Fracture question. I'm too involved on the creative side. I think Walky nails it about Burn-Out & Lift-Ticket. And probably the Cy-Kill cameos too. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 21:11, 29 July 2022 (EDT)

:I have to ask: if this is a concern, why did we split out the Cloud articles a month ago. Because they also are clearly designed to look like G1 characters, and aside from some minor changes in personality and dimension hopping stuff (which also applies to these three examples here), are near-identical in fiction to their Generation 1 counterparts. What makes them different from Bug Bite, Burn Out, and Lift-Ticket? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 11:29, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Lead Cloud translator here. As we discussed in-depth at the time, the Cloud characters do nothing *but* dimension hop and frequently cross over with the Japanese Generation 1 cartoon continuity and their own G1 incarnations, rendering them nigh unintelligible when buried in A-list G1 articles. The Cloud issue was one of logistics and readability, not one on the philosophy of intrinsic "G1-ness," as I believe was said at the time. I would also argue something on the scale of Cloud is a different discussion entirely from the current topic of merging two one-paragraph articles.

::On a most practical level re-merging a thoroughly deliberated and reasonably large scale split from a couple months ago just strikes me as kind of a waste of community resources.

::For those that missed it the impetus was translating the other 80-90% of the prose and the discussion can be found [[Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal#Splitting_Cloud_characters|here]]. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

Had a brainwave about a potential way to handle the GoBots characters—as a compromise between "treating them like full Transformers characters" and "treating them like external properties", use the GoBots page as a "hub" for the others. I've mocked up a couple of sandboxes for [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Cy-Kill|Cy-Kill]] and [[User:Riptide/Sandbox:Bug Bite|Bug Bite]]. Any thoughts? --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:16, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:If we absolutely have to (which I still really don't agree with) I'd prefer this over full fledged merging. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:02, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:I think this is a good compromise. The important thing is that there's a clear delineation between the dimension-hopping GoBots and native Cybertronians, and I think this fits the bill. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 20:03, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
::I still don't like the idea of rolling in the ''Cyberverse'' Bug Bite or any other not-G1-franchise iterations on the GB character concepts (like movieverse Fracture), even in the proposed super-abridged-and-linked-to-main-article format. For the appearances within the franchise of TF-origin, sure, I think this works. Cy-Kill's multiverse of murder... ehn. I'm not really feeling strongly either way but like we got hi-then-die charcater micropages aplenty, I don't think Cy is something terribly unique to not get them. Like... we got a page for "the many deaths of Optimus Prime", I feel like "the many deaths of Cy-Kill" could probably stand to be its own thing if we REALLY wanted to hammer the point of how stupid and hack it is home. Which, come to think about it, I kinda DO. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:42, 31 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Ah, see, Fracture was something I was specifically thinking of here — I thought it would work to accomodate both the original intent and how she's been tied back to Crasher in <s>Jim's nonsense</s> fan-targeted media while still respecting the practical reality of Fracture as her own, movieverse character. That said, I do understand your reluctance, so if the majority is against this I'm not too fussed. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:22, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, it feels like "Bug Bite, the white Bumblebee" is its own Transformers thing at this point. He may have originated as a GoBots transplant (both in real life and in fiction), but that doesn't automatically make every iteration of Bug Bite a GoBot, any more than every subsequent iteration of Lockdown or Lugnut is considered an Animated character. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] ([[User talk:Dark T Zeratul|talk]]) 04:34, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::::I appreciate the work Riptide put into this and like the writing / presentation style employed... and I just still don't think it's necessary. Between disambigs and "You Look Familiar...", we already have ways to cope with characters who look alike across different continuities but who aren't the same character. Most of these transplanted GoBots are absolutely not the same characters as each other - most of the Cy-Kill cameos, Cyberverse Bug Bite. There is no need for us to build a new way to unite those cross-continuity characters when nothing unites them more than the "basic concepts" that we've kept separate on hundreds of other name / appearance reuses. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:43, 1 August 2022 (EDT)
::I adore this brain blast, over and above what I proposed below (as it actually accommodates, in Cy-Kill's case, say, the ''Armada/TransTech/Animated'' cameos), and think the fact that people on both sides of this polarising issue aren't immediately opposed to it makes it strike me as a really good compromise. I still would prefer the ''Diaclone'' pages to be merged with their G1 counterparts, but whether or not it's a full merge or just the "main article" structure here, the intro phrasing proposed with Cy-Kill and Bug-Bite is perfect in my opinion. The key thing for me is that, when people look up info on Cy-Kill or Burn Out, they still find a pointer to the relevant information at the exact point they'd expect it to be, and not only that, but they can chart the entire conceptual history of the character on one page (I know the disambigs theoretically do the same, but in practise Jo's approach is much more effective). Assuming the same policy isn't applied to ''Uprising'' appearances, I still think something should be done about those—but otherwise I'd be very happy with this. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 06:16, 1 August 2022 (EDT)

So as I understand it, the consensus is that Diaclone characters should share a page with their G1 counterparts, and that — at least for the moment — GoBot characters should be left as-is, with White Bumblebee's G1 adventures split between the GoBot and G1 pages? Would appreciate some more input before we begin implementing this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 19:09, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:I still don't like the Diaclone thing but clearly I'm outvoted. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:48, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
:More or less. I'm fine with rolling G1 WFC Bug Bite in with the explicitly-GoBots one in the manner test-bedded above on the same grounds as the whole "Nebulan/Cybertronian" deal with Targetmaster gun-bots we've done forever; I think the proposed format both works with the way we've handled disparate depictions between different fictions within the same franchise chunk for a very long time now while noting the important real-world issues with these transplanted characters. And it's not like the combo page would be anywhere near big enough to make a split-out necessary. But I'm willing to table that for the moment while moving ahead with rolling the Diaclones back in. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:15, 2 August 2022 (EDT)
::I agree with this completely. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:11, 3 August 2022 (EDT)
:Diaclone characters should share pages with G1 counterparts who are also canonically said to be Diaclone-y. If we ever get a "Gobots Universe Bug Bite" that would be merged too - but just "white car Bug Bite" should not. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:21, 3 August 2022 (EDT)

==Proposal re: G1 pages==
I'm not expecting anything other than a hard "no" on this from the vast majority of editors, but a few people impelled me to post it, so here goes. In particular, I think this perspective is one held by many casual readers of the wiki. As I said over on [[Talk:Burn Out (Diaclone)|Burn Out's talk page]], I think both camps feel a sense of "''obviously'' these are (not) the same character", depending on whether they're coming from a strictly in-universe perspective or not. I want to put that whole discussion into an even broader perspective. Plus, I think the list of characters below is an interesting resource in its own right.

For ages, the wiki's had it so G1 appearances of characters originating in ''Robots in Disguise''—such as [[Sky-Byte (RID)]]—just get put on those pages. My understanding is that RID was considered something of a special case, because of how it was originally conceived as an in-continuity G1 thing, and remained such in Japanese continuity. For a less-prominent example, see also ''[[Power Core Combiners]]'', which similarly lists the IDW G1 appearances of [[Smolder (PCC)]] and [[Steamhammer (PCC)]] just on those pages. Again, this was a special case, because PCC was never concretely established as being a live-action movieverse thing or a G1 thing (which makes sense, because in Hasbro's eyes at the time, that wasn't a distinction that mattered to them).

There are other areas on the wiki that take a continuity-agnostic approach; I think it's just character pages that are handled so strictly. Check out [[Noisemaze Mass Production Type Version]]—which honestly ''is'' a character page in every way that matters—for a recently-made-relevant-again example. For many bigger-picture concept pages, a similar approach is used to great effect: [[Transformation]], [[Scanning]], [[Energon]], [[Protoform]], [[Spark]], [[Living metal]], [[Mini-Con]], [[Energon mutation]], just to grab a few random examples.

To draw attention to one last point, which I predict will resonate a lot with people who already agree with me and not at all with people who don't: any and all ''Beast Wars'' or ''Beast Machines'' original characters are exempt from this issue—despite, on a real-world level, there not really being any difference between those franchises and the likes of ''Armada'' or ''Animated''. It's just the lore connection that keeps it tethered, despite the wiki treating it as its ''own'' continuity family in basically every other way that matters.

My specific proposal is this: '''for characters originating ''outside of G1'', don't keep separate G1 pages.''' Treat those characters as we do Sky-Byte, ignoring the "continuity family" divide, and put the appearances on the page where they're most relevant. Here are the salient benefits of this approach:
*Have all the information on many popular post-G1 characters in the place where most casual readers would expect to look.
*Cut the Gordian knot of the GoBots/Diaclone debate.
*Finally ditch all those (BWU) pages consisting of a single sentence and a duplicated toy entry.
*Fewer redundant toy writeups which need to be maintained in parallel.
*Far, far fewer awkward paragraphs in Notes sections talking about "continuity transplants" like those are a real thing.

Here is a list of pages which I think would be affected, sorted by continuity, just from an hour or so of searching:
*'''''Diaclone''''': [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]]
*'''''GoBots''''': [[Bug Bite (G1)]], [[Crasher (G1)]], [[Cy-Kill (G1)]], [[Leader-1 (G1)]], [[Rest-Q (G1)]], [[Cop-Tur (G1)]] (!)
*'''''Armada''''': [[Hot Shot (G1)]], [[Red Alert (IDW)]], [[Demolisher (G1)]], [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Sideways (RM)]] (!), [[Treadshot (IDW)]]
*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Override (BWU)]], [[Ransack (IDW)]], [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Signal Lancer (G1)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Barricade (IDW)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Breacher (G1)]], [[Terradive (G1)]], [[Hailstorm (G1)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''Animated''''': [[Bulkhead (G1)]] (!), [[Lugnut (TF 2010)]], [[Lockdown (G1)]], [[Slipstream (G1)]] (!), [[Oil Slick (G1)]], [[Lightbright (G1)]], [[Lickety-Split (G1)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Breakdown (IDW)]], [[Airachnid (G1)]], [[Predaking (Kingdom)]], [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Rescue Bots''''': [[Medix (G1)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Scatterspike (G1)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Headlock (G1)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Transit (G1)]], [[Fracture (Cybertron)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Cyberverse''''': [[Shadow Striker (G1)]], [[Croaton (G1)]], [[Meteorfire (G1)]], [[Wildwheel (G1)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Doomwings (G1)]], [[Ursa Major (G1)]], [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': (deep breath) [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Twirl (G1)]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Sky Blast (G1)]], [[Sureshock (G1)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]
I assuredly missed some, so feel free to edit the lists above to add any other characters that would be affected by this proposal which are omitted!

Again, the vast majority of these are from ''Beast Wars Uprising'', which does have some weird lingering cases that would need further individual discussion, I think: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]]. But for the most part, I really don't see any reason why there should be all these tiny nothing pages; the only reason all those Mini-Cons were not called Mini-Cons is that in the ''Uprising'' universe, Mini-Cons are called Micromasters instead (which is the lore equivalent of "[[Barricade (G1)]] doesn't look like he's made of knives"). This is even ''less'' an irreconcilable lore detail than, for example, the organic/robotic split for Targetmasters and the like. My main goal with sharing this is to revisit the ''Uprising'' policy, because from where I'm sitting, it's resulted in exactly the same horribly inconvenient setup as the ''Diaclone'' stuff. A different, specific policy there would deal with most of the examples above, and I'd be very happy; what I've suggested is just a one-size-fits-all policy.

The weirdest victim of this stated policy, I think, is that of [[Bulkhead (G1)]], who technically originated with Animated, but whose appearances in G1 media have all drawn specifically from the ''Prime'' version. [[Slipstream (G1)]] is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: [[Slipstream (Animated)]], [[Slipstream (WFC)]] and [[Slipstream (Cyberverse)]], depending on which specific version is being depicted. That means all of the Bulkhead appearances would actually go on the ''Prime'' page. I really don't feel strongly on this detail, though. [[Cop-Tur (G1)]], as mentioned in the above discussion, is another edge case. One more strange case ''not'' listed above is that of [[Emissary (IDW)]], who homages the ''Robots in Disguise'' character but genuinely has what I'd consider to be a radically different portrayal, likely inspired as much by the ''Titans Return'' figure as anything.

To be clear, I consider G1 a special case because of how it's a catch-all label for anything that isn't Hasbro's newest ground-up reboot du jour. Like it or not, G1 usually doesn't actually mean "G1" any more, it just means ''Transformers''. I absolutely wouldn't want to start merging anything from other continuity families—that way pure madness lies. But I think this proposal has clear-cut criteria for inclusion, and would feel more consistent with other areas of existing wiki policy. To give a specific, relevant example: I don't think [[Fracture (Movie)]]'s appearances should be folded onto her merged ''GoBots'' page as some have suggested, ''but'' I do think her toy writeup should be on both without any "blah blah repurposed" hedging, and likewise for the other movieverse characters based on redecos designed by [[Joe Kyde]] contemporaneously with Classics and Universe with specific G1 characters (mostly Micromasters) in mind, some of which were even intended to be released as part of the ''Universe'' toyline. These being: [[Fracture (Movie)]], [[Big Daddy (Movie)]], [[Jolt (Movie)]], [[Grindcore (Movie)]], [[Breakaway (Movie)]], and [[Crankcase (Movie)]]. [[Mudflap (Movie)]] and [[Inferno (Movie)]] are basically the exact same but nobody ever talks about that.

Finally, I think [[Gigatron (G1)]]/[[Overlord (G1)]], [[Zaptrap]]/[[Kuwagatrer]], and [[Rotorbolt (Timelines)]]/[[Skyklik]]/[[Fumes]] should prrrooobably be revisited? In the former two cases, they exist due to niche media establishing them as separate individuals within the same continuity, but we already have precedent for dealing with that—see [[Hot Shot (G1)]]. I will concede that the Rotorbolt situation is quite funny.

I understand that the wiki is structured the way it is for good reasons, but the post-[[Evergreen]] state of the franchise is one where most writers are plucking characters from anywhere in the franchise's history without any significant changes to their depiction. The existing policy will only become more cumbersome as time goes on, in my eyes—I know for many editors, the list of pages above is a horrible scary list of Exceptions, but from where I'm sitting, they feel more like exceptions as they already stand? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 07:25, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:As someone who is basically sympathetic to your goals and not knee-jerk opposed to the idea, this:
:::"Slipstream (G1) is in a similar situation. I guess my proposal here would be to actually split the G1 content across the various pages: Slipstream (Animated), Slipstream (WFC) and Slipstream (Cyberverse), depending on which specific version is being depicted."
:is the worst thing I've ever read. Just, why? --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 08:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I was mostly being glib, I don't have a good answer there! Just wanted to draw attention to the fact that it ''would'' be a problem with the proposal. It's also been pointed out that all of [[Lockdown (G1)|Lockdown]]'s appearances are visually based on the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' toy! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:56, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Absolutely not. There's so much here that's based on false assumptions/incorrect information that I absolutely refuse to take any of this seriously. Concepts are on the same page because they are just that: concepts. There's so much to pick apart here but because I have important things to do, I'll just say that right now, the only reason why there was ''ever'' any confusion over Power Core Combiners is because fans took behind the scenes information from the company overly literally. You actually look at the one piece of information about the toyline (the brief history provided directly by Hasbro the club) and it makes it abundantly clear that it was always meant to be movieverse; I even argued back at the time about Smoulder and Steamhammer being put on that page, and the only reason why it's still that way is because the argument just fizzled out. And once again, I really have to ask: why the hell are we pushing forward merges based on "vibes" when we still keep the Sideways' (someone who is actually said in fiction to all be the same guy) apart based on moronic, petty reasons? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:01, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:Yeah, no, sorry, I think this is ultimately unhelpful and going to cause more accessibility issues than it solves. "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in" is perhaps a little confusing to new readers, but it's ultimately fairly self-consistent and easy to navigate once you understand the basic concept; "The wiki sorts the brand into broad franchise-based chunks (G1/BW, UT, movie, etc), and characters are split up by which of those chunks they appeared in, with the exception of RID01 which shares its pages with G1, and any latter-day characters imported into G1, which go on the pages of their non-G1 incarnations" is very confusing and requires you to be deep in the sauce to understand which characters are and are not exceptions to the rule. I obviously think that flexibility of the system is a good thing — the RID/G1 merge, while less than ideal, is definitely the best way to solve a very unintuitive issue — but the more holes we poke in the tower the closer it comes to collapsing, if you catch my drift.
:Ultimately I think the occasional silliness of "Shadow Striker (G1) who is identical to Shadow Striker (Cyberverse)" and such is the price we pay for having any structure whatsoever. The more we make exceptions on the basis of ultimately arbitrary "well this one's SO similar" the less consistent the wiki overall gets, and the harder it gets to navigate. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:40, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::Basically, this. And I don't even think that drawing the franchise-based chunk distinction is all that confusing given I think most people grok the idea that characters will pop up across sub-fictions of major multi-media franchises with varying levels of similarity to prior incarnations that are still "oh, it's a wholly separate storyline, okay". That's just how these things ''do''. (and like "multiverse" has kinda become a ''thing'' in other franchises the last several years) --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 10:00, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

:"We've always put RID guys appearing in G1 as still being the RID character, look at Sky Byte" - what other examples make this an "always"? There WERE two Sky Byte pages, for years. We only stopped having a Sky-Byte (G2) when its character model in the IDW G1 comic was explicitly based off the new T30 toy sculpt which wound up with like half of these separate articles duplicating each other. It was argued on that talk page for a long while. The only other case I can think of at all is Gigatron (G1), and we ''don't'' treat him like Megatron (RID).
:"We treat BW as a continuity family like Armada, it looks like we are showing favoritism to them" - we treat it like a franchise within G1, which is what it is. And we disambig by franchise, not by continuity family. "Chase (RB)", not "Chase (Aligned)" or "Chase (Prime)". This was one of the concerns I raised last year when we turned Victory, Masterforce et al into G1 because they had no separate box branding of their own, wait it turned out they did, welp whattaya gonna do, no backsies.
:'''Last but MOST''', I'd say that, yes, "lore connections" mean a great deal here, it is a feature not a bug. This is a fiction-centric wiki as surely as it's an English-centric one. We put character writeups first, above the toys. We give the toys the character names and say "his stickers", not "its stickers" and talk about how it represents the character, not about how many micrograms of silicon it contains. Separating characters because they come from different storyline eras / offerings is entirely normal and reasonable for us. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:43, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
::I don't disagree in general, but G1/IDW Gigatron DOES share a page with RID Megatron. [[Gigatron (G1)]] is the Overlord repurpose. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 09:49, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
:::Oof. Don't know why I clearly remembered them as being separate, but in any case I regret the error. Thank you.--[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 10:14, 30 July 2022 (EDT)
There's no way to organize something like this place without something somewhere seeming arbitrary. I think the existing structure is arbitrary in the best way that makes the most sense, and trying to "mitigate" that arbitrariness just creates different arbitrariness. A lot of this "but what if we redid all this to fix this particular thing" shuffling just relitigates why we already do the stuff we already do. so, like: no --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 09:54, 30 July 2022 (EDT)

== The Discord ==

Alright, seriously, we need to talk about this. It is beyond frustrating that a greater than 50% chunk of discussion about what big edits will happen on the wiki are happening on an app that people either aren't on or (in my case) aren't allowed on. I was told it was going to just to get voices onto things but that clearly isn't how it's working out. We need either some sort of archival dump of all these posts or something because I'm tired of getting into arguments where half the responses haven't even happened on the main site itself. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 07:45, 17 August 2022 (EDT)
: I think you're drastically overestimating how much discussion about big edits is happening on the Discord. No actual big decisions are getting made there, and we make it a point to repeatedly remind people that discussion for major changes needs to happen here before anything gets decided. But we also can't stop anyone from simply talking about things there the same way we couldn't stop discussion on the AllSpark thread when that was a thing, and having a public log of discussions from the editing channel is both infeasible and frankly unnecessary. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 09:09, 17 August 2022 (EDT)

==Designer bylines on toy writeups==

As those of us who have been tuning in to the [[Hasbro Pulse#Livestreams|Hasbro Pulse livestreams]] have no doubt noticed, one side effect of the unprecedented transparency of the current team on the ''Generations'' franchise is that we are now pretty consistently being blasted with a fire hose of toy designer credits. While there's been a scramble to record them on the designers' pages as best we can, this rapidly growing body of information is not doing the average reader a whole lot of good sequestered away on pages that require them to already know the designers by name. As such, I've put together a template to act as a designer byline for relevant toy write-ups, largely following the formatting of our existing voice actor template.

Documentation for the prototype template which I've named '''<nowiki>{{toydesigner}}</nowiki>''' can be found here:

*[[:Template:Toydesigner]]

And a variety of examples of implementation can be found here:

*[[User:AzimuthAcolyte/Sandbox/Toy credits demo]]

Is this something we would be interested in implementing?

Questions, concerns, suggestions etc are welcome. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 13:33, 22 August 2022 (EDT)

:I support adding this template, it's valid information and helps put names and faces in a historically anonymous industry due to the lack of credits in the products themselves.
[[User:MrRald|MrRald]] ([[User talk:MrRald|talk]]) 13:38, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I think this is a great idea. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:52, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I really like it. The only possible negative is that unless a whole bunch of people are very dedicated to this (or one brave soul is ''extremely'' dedicated to it) we might end up seeing it only appear on a small handful of toy entries and most will never feature it. I vote for going ahead with it regardless.
:::While we are addressing the "designer credits" issue, can we also please find a better phrase to use on the designer pages than "Toys So-and-so is known to have had a hand in creating"? It's just so overwrought. I think "Design Team Credits Include:" gets the point across much more naturally.... --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:54, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::::This is a fair point. Maybe something as blunt as "Known Design Work" mirroring the "Published Works" thing we use for writers/artists? -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Looks good to me. Hope we can scrounge together sources and lists for older design teams too. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 15:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
::I can't see any reason not to do this. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:05, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
:I'm not a toy person, but that looks really cool! --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 16:23, 22 August 2022 (EDT)
Oh wow, I'm blown away by the universally positive reception here! If there are no concerns in the next few days I guess I'll get started rolling this out. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 11:17, 25 August 2022 (EDT)
:Alrighty it's been a fair bit with no further concerns, so I have pushed the template live to [[:Template:Toydesigner]] and will begin implementing it as I have time. Any and all help is appreciated, as this will of course be a huge job. -[[User:AzimuthAcolyte|AzimuthAcolyte]] ([[User talk:AzimuthAcolyte|talk]]) 16:13, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Wiki Toy Photo Quality Standards ==
So we know (and had long suspected anyway) that Hasbro designers are sometimes pulling Wiki photos for reference. That's great, but we've got some toy photography on here that's a good bit off from what the figures look like in reality for one reason or another. Is there any way to flag shots that are out of whack so that they might get tweaked or replaced? This issue comes to mind since, while I've been here more or less since the Wiki started, I don't recall there being a formal set of standards for photos since it just wasn't really a big deal before now. Oversaturation is my main complaint, since one user a long while ago was going through, taking existing shots into Photoshop and oversaturating the hell out of them without regard to the actual toy, and I've noticed some updated photography like [[Prowl (Magnaboss)]] that does basically the same. It's a larger photo, but that Prowl is definitely not blazing yellow in person. Apologies in advance and please disregard if this has already been discussed elsewhere or before.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:10, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:For the record, my lighting set up is very warm, hence why Prowl's colours appear so bright. I haven't figured out the right balance in Photoshop to get the colours of figures to look spot on so figures either appear too bright or too dull in the finished product. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 17:30, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::Oh, I'm not intending to put you on the spot, that's just the first example I had on hand of a wider issue that we probably need to start being careful about since it appears to be (hilariously) affecting actual figures now, like Titans Return PMOP or Legacy Iguanus. When it was the one guy tweaking things to be inaccurate "because it looked better", I could follow him and revert stuff, but I can't when there's nothing to revert in most cases.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 18:38, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
::I recommend ring lights, you can get some pretty cheap, they've good at spreading light out rather than heavy-focus, and they have adjustable brightness and warm/cool light settings: use "cool" (aka white/blue-tinted). Even before I got ring lights, I used "cool" light bulbs in the lamps. The problem is these are nowhere as common as the "normal" yellow-tinted bulbs, thus, go with the ring lights.
::As for "standards"... well, good luck with that. Every camera's a little different. Every MONITOR is a little different. Hell, I have a double-monitor setup with different models and they have small but distinct differences in brightness & etc; honestly I'm good with it since it lets me check how things may look to different people. But I think maybe a tag for photos that we are CERTAIN are too far off from final product (be they user-made or stock images) may not be a bad idea. Assuming we notice. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:44, 24 August 2022 (EDT)
:::Yeah, a tag we can throw on to a photo just to make it at least visible that it's incorrect would be useful. And would probably prompt a deco designer to gather some secondary reference material, assuming the tag's obvious. I like the idea.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 16:29, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:::I've noticed that the quality of the UT stuff in the toys section flunctuates greatly-- for example, ML Starscream still uses the guidebook picture, and Superlink ver of the combining Optimus downright doesn't exist. I've started to collect UT toys since Hasbro has been updating UT stuff with more commitment and I have 0 faith in them doing it right, and most of the stuff I've gotten are the JP versions. For minor alterations like ML/ Armada Megs, is it worth uploading a completely new picture of ML Megatron onto his page? Another issue worth regarding discussing is "cartoon accuracy". Whilst Hasbro is indeed working on making more accurate figures, they obviously aren't 100% accurate, like 86 starscream using the commonly accepted G1 logo instead of the sunbow accurate one with the spike in the middle, and even from a sculpt and proportional standppint the ER mold is far from accurate compared to the sunbow model, let alone MP52. I actually cleaned up the page for TM2 Megatron because he deviates pretty heavily if you compare the CG model to the final toy, and changed the claim that Skids is "toon" accurate as he is blantently based on the original toy in deco. The same goes for Starscream, aside from the forearms and forehead hes blatently based on the T30 toy. I also had to edit that bit --[[User: Pixelmaster|Pixelmaster]] 3:31 HKT

==Reconsolidating some of our pages==
This is something I've been thinking about for a while, but I'd like to propose re-merging some of our excessively split articles back into something more manageable. It seems like that once a page is split out, a) we get a lot less editorial oversight, as the recent toy page trimming has revealed, b), stuff does not get updated nearly as often as they would be on their respective mainpages, and c) it makes information harder to find by pushing it behind a subpage that's not readily accessible.

Obviously I understand that splits are necessary for the really long pages like [[Optimus Prime (G1)]], [[Megatron (G1)]], and soforth, but when you get down to like, [[Mirage (G1)]] or [[Hound (G1)]] or [[Hot Shot (Armada)]], there's barely anything of any significance on their main pages beyond Dreamwave or the odd IDW cameo. Are, for instance, [[Ravage (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ravage]]'s Marvel adventures that major that they can't fit into the main page? Are [[Hook (G1)/toys|Hook]] or [[Warpath (G1)#Toys|Warpath]] really that inundated with toys that they need their own subpage? If it's a problem of just ''length'', then a lot of the subpaged articles or mainpage stuff like the storybooks could just be trimmed down into something more manageable—as I did with G1 Cliffjumper's Marvel section earlier this year. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 17:00, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
:I 100% agree with this. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:04, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Fully in favour. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 17:20, 29 August 2022 (EDT)
: Sub-pages should, on their own, be significantly sizable pages to justify making readers link-jump. A dozen toys does not strike me as remotely enough to justify a subpage split. Being ''in'' a major long-running fiction but mostly having appearances in a minority of installments that can be summed up in two sentences doesn't justify a split. New editing tools are fun and all, but just 'cuz you gotta new hammer doesn't mean you have to go hunting for anything that looks vaguely nail-like. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:18, 29 August 2022 (EDT)

== Incoming maintenance ==

Just a heads up, our host is going to be doing some maintenance in about an hour that may cause problems with the site, so if you have trouble reaching it and therefore cannot read this message, that's what it is. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:11, 23 November 2022 (EST)

== Foreign names ==

A dispute came up recently on the [[Megatron (ES)]] page. User:Kiké Prime has been providing Hungarian names for all the characters, but this one apparently is just "Megatron". Cyberlink420 removed it. I disputed it, pointing out that not listing it leaves the implication that we do not know the name of the character in the language. Despite having my reversion again reverted, I still find deliberately leaving blanks in our name lists odd. I am thus bringing the matter here for further discussion. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:16, 5 December 2022 (EST)
:My understanding has always been that we only add foreign names if they are different from the English name. Per pages like [[Megatron (G1)]], this includes examples where the name is the same, but is spelled with a diacritic or using a different alphabet. So "Megatron" wouldn't be different enough to justify inclusion, but examples like Mégatron, Megatrón, Мегатрон and メガトロン would. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 13:10, 5 December 2022 (EST)

== Nonbinary Character Category ==

So, we now have another nonbinary character (who actually used their pronouns during the media no less), [[Nightshade (ES)|Nightshade]] from [[Transformers: EarthSpark (franchise)|Earthspark]] (Nightshade at time of posting doesn't have a page yet)! The other fully for certain fully intentional one is [[Screwball]] from [[Beast Wars: Uprising]] while [[Acid Storm (Cyberverse)|Acid Storm]] was at least an out of media by writer retcon of animation, and [[Overlord_(G1)#Ask_Vector_Prime|Overlord's]] gender is somewhat nebulous on where that fits beyond being gender expansive due to being [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#December 23, 2015|"what some would call genderfluid"]] but that at least puts us at three. Given that we have a trans category now we thought it best to at this point suggestion a nonbinary category for the sake of users (including gender expansive people) easily finding nonbinary characters on here. Obviously adding Nightshade will have to wait until they have a page but any thoughts on this yea or nay? [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 18:28, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:I forgot about Screwball. I think with three confirmed examples, even without the edge case of Overlord, that's probably enough to justify one. Care will have to be taken, however, to only include confirmed examples and not use it as a dumping ground for any character whose gender has never been explicitly identified. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 18:37, 8 December 2022 (EST)
::Authorial intent and all, but I can say that if I had the option to go back and rewrite it I would have used the term non binary for Overlord. I feel like Acid Storm is more of an edge case; it’s what one person said on their account to justify it. Whenever Acid Storm actually says something they’re animated with a female face; it’s not done at random.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:47, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::Acid Storm changes from masculine male to feminine female and back. Gender-fluid, sure, but definitely non-binary? As for Overlord, in the Legends manga Mega gives Overlord a female-presenting face - is there a pronoun change during that time? Would we have more candidates for inclusion in a Gender-fluid category first? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:17, 8 December 2022 (EST)
:::::Thank for the notes folks, that does help to piece this together! Just want to note that a pronoun change is not necessary for a gender being experienced in fluidity to be the one expressed or what have you, so unless the Legends manga actually has some sort of statement about Overlord's fluidity that kind of puts us back with an umbrella term of nonbinary (which we are unsure as not having read the Legends manga if that would work for that Overlord so we can't speak to where/if Overlord falls under gender expansiveness beyond the fact that Overlord's presentation changes depending on the binary bond partner right?). Acid Storm is an edge case yes but if we do count the edge case that they are we think it is worth noting that for Acid Storm what Catt said was specifically that changing expression is just something they do, and "any pronouns" work for Acid Storm, no statement about the binary. Of course, we only see two faces which are the two different Seeker faces that were otherwise delineated by gender, but at this point we're getting into the opt-in thing of 'x person is genderfluid and thus considers themself nonbinary' or 'z person is genderfluid and only considers themself as under the multigender umbrella'. Which we don't have detail on really if Acid Storm is genderfluid as how they know themselves right? Because that's just a thing that was written in the Female Transformers page because of (no blame being given, it's understandable) the user finding that to be the term that fit best? Feel like we've ended up just pointing out an need for just a gender expansive category instead but ah well. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:46, 1 January 2023 (EST)
::::::We seem to have killed this with a non-solution for the nonbinary category by pointing out that gender expansive is more certain than saying genderfluid. If we count Nightshade, Overlord, and Screwball, is that a go on nonbinary, or should we just have a gender expansive category at this point that would also be one trans characters use? For people wondering what gender expansive means you can find a definition here https://www.diversitystyleguide.com/glossary/gender-expansive/ https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2022/08/gender-expansive-mean/ [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:18, 6 February 2023 (EST)
:::::::Respectfully, I think needing to invoke a glossary suggests the term is so little-used in common parlance that it would not be useful for our needs and style. We don't have a category tag at the bottom of a bunch of BW characters saying "tetrapods" or "perissodactyls" (we ''do'' talk like that on [[Popular beast alternate modes]], maybe a grouping ''page'' would be a better approach? Just a thought...). If we are looking for a category tag I think it would be better to find the term that unambiguously covers the largest number of candidates, without a need to rely on edge cases, maintaining both accuracy and readability. I see three characters that could sensibly go in a Gender-fluid tag, one that could go in a Non-binary tag (meaning we wouldn't make the latter). We may be facing a case where there are few enough disparate examples that there isn't one single category tag that usefully unites them. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:55, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::::::::With the most recent block of EarthSpark episodes having further explored Nightshade's character and introduced a new nonbinary character in the form of Sam (this also saw the term nonbinary used in the show for the first time), we have been discussing the topic of introducing a Nonbinary characters category on the Discord. Doing some research, AVP also confirmed the Tigerhawk of Primax 496.22 Alpha (the Beast Wars cartoon continuity) to be nonbinary, so that's another character to justify that category. It's been suggested by an expert on the matter that we could introduce a "Gender expansive characters" category as an umbrella category, with Genderfluid characters, Nonbinary characters, and Transgender characters existing as subcategories as a way of future-proofing our coverage of gender expansive characters, while also ensuring we don't lump every gender expansive character together into a single broad category and hopefully making these concepts easier to navigate for casual readers. - [[User:Archforce|Archforce]] ([[User talk:Archforce|talk]]) 17:26, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::In sequence you replied to my post of Feb 7 but seem to have side-stepped the part where I questioned the usefulness of a category tag that will not be widely understood. Also, creating such a category exactly ''is'' "lumping them all together into a single broad category." So is that approach desirable or not? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:43, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::: They said the word nonbinary in the show. In a show full of nonbinary rep. And then nonbinary characters exists outside of that show, and it would not be a dangerous bet to expect this to continue. But people are born with an innate understanding of what an Alpha Primax 9384u743 is, or Transmetals, or Powermasters, but not what a nonbinary person is so yeah maybe we are going too far on this website for nerds who want to learn more about things related to Transformers (like nonbinary characters). We have a category called council members. Literally for any character who has served on any council. I did not understand what "council members" actually refered to before I clicked on it, assumed it was more specific than it was, but in fact it took me two seconds to figure it out. A non-binary category and/or gender-expansive category would surely be the same. And as Archforce says, make these concepts easier to navigate. Or if that was too long, what Walky said. Seriously. You also appear to misunderstand what is meant by lumping together. Because putting all non-binary people in a non-binary category is accurate, and is something I and at least some others want, putting all non-binary people on a transgender page would be a misrepresentative "all of these are the same thing right?". Gender-expansive on the other hand comes from someone familiar with the matter, and as a non-binary person myself, as someone who has researched gender representation in media at an honours level (to flex some credentials that yeah I could be making up), I agree with what is being said on the Discord. Gender expansive as an umbrella provides the room to not lump everyone together while recognising yeah there is something shared in any act of gender that is not one of cisgender conformity. Having transgender and nonbinary characters on the same page while called out as two seperate subcategories I again think helps casual readers navigate based on this. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 18:40, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::Not using the best useful terms because they're not understood by enough people is extremely self-defeating. I reject that line of thinking. (also, like, c'mon, the first complete article for this wiki was gaddang Robot-Master, not Optimus Prime, so I think we can say the words "gender expansive" even if someone hasn't heard of them) --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 17:49, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::Thank you all for the discussion! To clarify regarding aesthetics (because gender is aesthetics, we can give recommendations on stuff to read re that), the term gender expansive does not in fact cover everybody, merely all the bots we're talking about it in this instance and likely future unless we get canon transformers fiction that actually uses a variable alien aesthetic system that isn't gender but is something similar. To put this another way: not all human societies' aesthetic category concepts and formulation of individual and collective context for self such as pronouns, names, expressions, (to use Leslie Feinberg's words for navigating transness and gender itself, the 'poetics,' not just construction) etc. used or uses those in a way that neatly fits modern Western gender constructs with a large number of examples both from outside Europe and within it. In a similar vein some xeno aesthetic spectrum folks (like some of ourselves, and yes we're getting very obscure here the gender parallel is xenogender) and speculative fiction/sci-fi about aliens live or navigates the idea of aesthetic structures that are not gender at all but merely overlap or parallel.
:::::::::::Transformers fiction has really only touched on the subject of the alien aspect of the bots' gender or lack thereof when trying to portray that something is there by e.g.; parallel with the embodying and living of their various modes such as when Lodestar speaks to having weapon retrofit dysphoria in the 2021 annual (yes, the 'embodying and living' is something we're borrowing from Gayle Salamon on how she frames gender), their unique histories, the December 23rd 2015 AVP gender answer having a note about continuities where the concept of gender is barely relevant, and possibly that time 'gal' got put in quotations (it's still unclear what Maggs meant by that but that's okay). So rest assured that while gender expansive is a broad category- it only future proofs us until alien terminology or narrative that is clearly shown in replacement of when gender would otherwise be used in a story actually happens in canon. Which would be incredibly exciting, but isn't where we are right now. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:11, 4 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::But we are nonetheless at a special point in time in the transformations of transformers, that the categories genderfluid, nonbinary, and gender expansive would be useful for. <3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 19:15, 4 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::Gosh that felt good to dedicating an afternoon to doing, thank you for the help! We feel that [[Editor|Chief]] ought to be included in the gender expansive category, and given the entry regarding Tigerhawk that was mentioned here, Spittor arguably also could be [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#May_23.2C_2015|"In some universes where Spittor scans an organic alternate mode, his biological system conforms to female while his Cybertronian gender identity is male."]]. Chief seems fairly obvious? RE Spittor where his situation could be argued to break down is the cybertronian understanding of gender maybe not matching gender and anatomy as framed by humans but then that in itself still qualifies. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:32, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::: *shrugs* maybe the latter re Spittor and similar situations is just something to note in an eventual article rather than to throw in the category itself [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 20:45, 5 March 2023 (EST)
:::::::::::::I'm gonna say that I'm for Editor while Spittor is ultimately a way of just saying that his alt-mode is a female frog even though he's male. Ala Tigatron in the cartoon, Waspinator, etc. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:57, 5 March 2023 (EST)
::::::::::::::Thank you, that helps clarify things! :3 [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 21:47, 5 March 2023 (EST)

== Adding an informative table to each character page ==
I was thinking about it since it's striking.. lack.. There should be a way to tell people in which and how many episodes/issues/movies each character appears in the continuity they belong to, their debut episode/issue movie, what aliases they have had and nicknames they were given by other characters, a more centered area for the voice or live actors, a link to their gallery pages(if they have any) and one to their disambiguation pages etc. The kind of information that one would prefer to find with greater ease, especially if they aren't members. And talking about their appearances, that should prove quite useful for future page edits, since we'll know exactly where to look especially when it's about latecomers or characters that don't appear on a regular basis. I just think it'd be useful. [[User:Darthrone|Darthrone]] ([[User talk:Darthrone|talk]]) 15:44, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:This kind of infobox was discussed at the very earliest days of this wiki, and it was decided that there was just way, way too much information for it to work... and this was in 2006, BEFORE the franchise exploded. TF is such a fragmented kludge of fictions from multiple sources and creators spanning 40 years that any major character would end up with one ultra-massive thing of dubious use (can't say I see the value in a "number of appearances" tally, aside from the headache of keeping that accurate over time and arguing "what counts"), or a billion splintered ones spread across the page for the different fictions. And "nicknames" is always a minefield as those tend to turn into a massive list of "someone called them this once" which is... not helpful. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:46, 2 February 2023 (EST)
::Even if it had been a day-1 thing, I don't see how this is more informative than our current style. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:58, 2 February 2023 (EST)
:::I'm for infoboxes, but the information you're asking for is far too abstract and meaningless in this franchise. (We are absolutely not doing "nicknames". No.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:09, 2 February 2023 (EST)

==The (BWU) tag==
I understand the reasons why [[#Proposal re: G1 pages|my previous proposal]] regarding the proliferation of (G1) pages for random newer characters was soundly rejected. However, my main motivation for raising it was that I find the huge quantity of (BWU) pages for "repurposed" Mini-Cons and bestial Transformers to be reader-unfriendly, so I wanted to make a case for making an exception for ''[[Beast Wars: Uprising]]'' cameos. ''Uprising'' was an obscure barely-canon multi-continuity-drifting web serial which we are very unlikely to get further instalments of, and most of the relevant characters are similarly very deep pulls who will assuredly not be appearing again in future stories, and who will otherwise be stuck with tiny stub-pages forever. Most of these are Mini-Cons (here Micromasters) or bestial Transformers (here Protoformers), with a few boats or Constructicons from "[[Derailment]]". In many cases, I perceive ''Uprising'' as having tried to give these toys a hint of fiction where previously they had none at all, much like [[Ask Vector Prime]] before it. It's a very different phenomenon to most so-called "continuity transplants" we've seen in other series (such as with, say, [[Hot Shot (G1)]]), which are instead rooted in the popularity of those characters.

I think the problem here is that strictly speaking ''Uprising'' is a "Primax" continuity, sure, but it lifts dozens of characters (let alone concepts) unchanged from later stories. Slavishly hewing to that label when it's such an intertextual melting pot has resulted in this unfriendly setup. It feels like a fair decision made at the time (was [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Archive64#Derailment & Uprising pages|this discussion]] the one?) but in my opinion the wiki's policy kinda fails here. If we get rid of the (BWU) tag, the (G1) back-ports remaining (a minority!) will be for more significant characters, often adapted more radically. Here's the list of tiny pages we could be rid of, just like that:

*'''''Energon''''': [[Steam Hammer]], [[Doom-Lock (BWU)]], [[Avalon (BWU)]]
*'''''Cybertron''''': [[Wing Saber (BWU)]], [[Shortround (BWU)]]
*'''Movies''': [[Reckage]], [[Hatchet (BWU)]], [[Skipjack (BWU)]], [[Sea Spray (BWU)]], [[Fearswoop (BWU)]], [[Depthcharge (BWU)]], [[Rav (BWU)]], [[Evac (BWU)]], [[Drydock (BWU)]], [[Photon (BWU)]]
*'''''TransTech''''': [[Ego (BWU)]]
*'''''War for Cybertron''''': [[Contrail (BWU)]], [[Sigil (BWU)]], [[Gauntlet (BWU)]]
*'''''Prime''''': [[Ser-Ket (BWU)]], [[Rot Gut (BWU)]], [[Twinstrike (BWU)]], [[Budora (BWU)]], [[Darksteel (BWU)]], [[Vertebreak (BWU)]], [[Grimwing (BWU)]], [[Blackbeak (BWU)]], [[Judora (BWU)]]
*'''''Robots in Disguise''''': [[Bisk (BWU)]], [[Paralon (BWU)]], [[Quillfire (BWU)]], [[Ped (BWU)]], [[Psychobat (BWU)]], [[Springload (BWU)]], [[Snitch (BWU)]], [[Razorgrille (BWU)]]
*'''''Transformers Online''''': [[Astral Knight (BWU)]], [[Psychic Shortstop (BWU)]], [[Wrath Thunder (BWU)]], [[Deep Blue (BWU)]]
*'''Mini-Cons''': [[Synapse (BWU)]], [[Black Out]], [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], [[Flat-Out (BWU)]], [[Six-Speed (BWU)]], [[Zapmaster (BWU)]], [[Crumplezone (BWU)]], [[Cannon (BWU)]], [[Bulge (BWU)]], [[Bomb (BWU)]], [[Shot (BWU)]], [[Crack (BWU)]], [[Thunderblast (BWU)]], [[Wreckage (BWU)]], [[Bonecrusher (BWU)]], [[Broadside (BWU)]], [[Tankor (BWU)]], [[Caliburn (BWU)]], [[Torque (BWU)]], [[Bilge (BWU)]], [[Search (BWU)]], [[Refute (BWU)]], [[Kingbolt (BWU)]], [[Starcatcher (BWU)]], [[Clench (BWU)]], [[Run-Over (BWU)]], [[Deepdive (BWU)]], [[Astro-Sinker (BWU)]], [[Snow Cat (BWU)]], [[Draft (BWU)]], [[Screw (BWU)]], [[Aston (BWU)]] (deep sigh)
*'''Other''': [[Terrastar (BWU)]], [[Hyperborea (BWU)]], [[Alchemor (BWU)]], [[Minion of Unicron (BWU)]]

There's a handful of ''Uprising'' characters that need a (G1) page anyway for non-''Uprising'' reasons; I'm totally ambivalent about where the ''Uprising'' content ends up for these: [[Tidal Wave (G1)]], [[Override (BWU)]] (!), [[Cannonball (G1)]], [[Black-Out]], [[Halogen (G1)]], [[Knock Out (G1)]], [[Gaidora (BWU)]], [[Strongarm (G1)]], [[Thunderhoof (BWU)]], [[Twirl (G1)]].

Finally there's a few weird cases that would merit individual discussion but would probably just need to keep their own pages: [[Clobber (BWU)]], [[Apex (BWU)]], [[Offshoot (BWU)]], [[Cybaxx (BWU)]], [[Overbite (BWU)]], and [[Terrorcon (BWU)]].

Here is a ([https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=500&offset=0&redirs=1&profile=all&search=%22from+the%22+%22continuity+families%22 probably non-exhaustive]) list of existing cases of multi-continuity drifting you should probably consider before weighing in:
* [[Buckethead]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 31, 2015|this Ask Vector Prime answer]])
* [[Drydock (TF 2010)]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 13, 2015|this answer]] which explicitly has him travel from one continuity to another)
* [[Drelnar Feh'd]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 17, 2015|this one]])
* [[Scorpia (G2)]], [[Autoceptor]], [[Deceptor]], and [[Kaltor]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#June 12, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Clear Skies Team]], [[Rapid Intervention Team]], [[Prehistoric Team]], [[Demolition Team]], [[Dirt Digger Team]], [[Heavy Load (Universe)]] and the [[Mobile Fortification Team]], and [[Detectas]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]]).
**However, exceptions from these Mini-Con teams are [[Nightscream (Cybertron)|Nightscream]], [[Offshoot (Cybertron)|Offshoot]], [[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]] and [[Knockdown (Cybertron)|Knockdown]], who all have separate (Cybertron) basis on the basis of receiving separate bios after being packed in with ''Cybertron'' Primus...
**...but then [[Liftor]] is all on a single page, despite his ''Classics'' bio.
**[[Snarl (Classics)|Snarl]], [[Sledge (Classics)|Sledge]], [[Wideload (Classics)|Wideload]], [[Knockdown (Classics)|Knockdown]], and [[Steel Wind]] already have ''Uprising'' content on their pages, but that makes sense as these were originally ''Classics'' guys.
* The [[Saurian Strike Team]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#September 28, 2015|this one]])
* The [[Minicon 8 Pack]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#July 24, 2015|this one]])
* The ''Dark of the Moon'' Mini-Cons [[Dualor (DOTM)]], [[Triceradon (DOTM)]], [[Rav (DOTM)]], and [[Catilla (DOTM)]], plus [[Ironlunge]], [[Reptix]], [[Sling (AOE)]], [[Gnashteeth]], [[Wedge Shape]], [[Brimstone (Universe)]], [[Apexus]], [[Gredator]], and [[Dragoyell]] (because of [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Facebook#August 13, 2015|this one]])
** Weirdly, we ''separately'' have a page for [[Rav (BWU)]], but Catilla has Unicron Trilogy, movie, and ''Uprising'' appearances covered all on the one page!
* [[Galadria]] and [[Ramak]] (because of [[Source:Transformers: Spacewarp's Log#December 5, 2015|this post]])
* Am I to understand that [[Wind Sheer (RID)]], [[Skyfire (RID)]] and the [[Dimensional Patrol]] each have just a single page because (RID) ''is'' part of the G1 continuity family sometimes...?
* And I understand that [[Primus Vanguard]] cameos just go on their original pages because that's a weird thing kinda outside of G1 anyway (at least from an in-universe perspective, if not a real-world one).
* ''Diaclone'' examples like [[Burn Out (Diaclone)]], [[Lift-Ticket (Diaclone)]], and [[Chifumi Takahashi]] have been discussed to death.
* [[Monsterous]] was retconned to originally be from an Aligned universe (in [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#October 21, 2015|this post]], though I can't actually find any mention of Uniend? EDIT: [[Source:Ask Vector Prime/Guest column#November 7, 2015|found it]]!)
* [[Primacron]] was apparently mentioned in ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II| The AllSpark Almanac II]]''.
* And [[Sentinel Supreme]] is just an Easter egg that everyone seemed to shrug about at the time.

To those who say the exception I'm proposing would be confusing, I submit these existing examples where we've apparently neglected to split something out as evidence that the only people this confuses are wiki editors like me wondering why they're not all that way. Maybe I'm just unaware of some aspect of the existing policy which accounts for all these cases? But is it really helpful to anyone to have a given toy's associated fiction squirrelled away somewhere separate you have to go into the disambiguation to find? We recently merged [[Chromhorn]] (another Sorenson job) on the basis that "There's literally no reason for these to be on different pages. They are the same thing." Can we not do the same for these Sorenson-penned cases that are basically going "look, the exact same guy shows up in multiple universes, alright?" And if the answer is no, will someone go through and split all these out? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:27, 6 February 2023 (EST)

:I think my response to your earlier G1-import proposal still applies here: the more exceptions we make to our system for the sake of "accessibility", the harder the overall structure becomes to grok for a new reader, and thus ironically it all becomes ''less'' accessible. Why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steel Jaw]], but ''Uprising'' Bisk be at [[Bisk (RID)]]? Or, conversely, why should ''Uprising'' Steel Jaw be at [[Steeljaw (RID)]], but LBS Steeljaw be at [[Steel Jaw|Steeljaw (IDW)]]? Neither solution is good.
:As for the current list of exceptions, I'd argue everything you list from Buckethead to the DOTM Mini-Cons should probably be split. Galadria and Ramak are characters from outside media, so we don't split them across continuity lines. Wind Sheer and Skyfire have one page for consistency with the other RID guys. The source on Monsterous being Aligned is [[Source:Ask_Vector_Prime/Facebook#November_7.2C_2015|here]], but I would argue that's just giving an origin to the GoBot and so they should share a page anyway.
:Lastly - I object to you bringing the Chromhorn thing into this, as I don't think it's a fair comparison. Chromhorn wasn't making any exception to our categorisation system; it was one page saying "Chromhorn is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT" and another saying "Chromhorn Forest Type is a green variant of Insecticon from the UT", and the former was somehow a "repurposing" of the fictionless latter. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 20:24, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::Totally get the Steeljaw example—although it ''is'' crazy that we're currently disambiguating G1 wolf Steeljaw simply by [[Steel Jaw]]. You should post about the disambiguation tag policy change you suggested on Discord, I think a lot of people were thinking along similar lines there. Agree with your interpretation of the current policy as to which of the examples listed should be split and which shouldn't—although the more I think about the Primus Vanguard, the more I think those should technically be split too. While I guess the [[Time Warrior (AVP)|Time Warrior]]s are multiversal travellers like Drydock. RE: Chromhorn, I understand why it's technically different; I brought it up because I think it speaks to the tenor of ''Ask Vector Prime'' answers—in spirit, I think its aim was exactly the same as with the Mini-Con examples I've given.
::What do I mean by that? To match your Steeljaw example, from the opposite angle: say I'm your typical fan scrolling [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)]], and I click on, say, [[Dualor (DOTM)]], wondering if he's ever shown up in anything. In their current state, I get my answer immediately. With the proposed split for consistency, I instead get a page telling me that Dualor (DOTM) is a dinosaur Mini-Con from ''Dark of the Moon'', some info about the toy, ''maybe'' ending with an inscrutable note about how he was "repurposed" as an identical guy. Now, there's ''already'' an unrelated [[Dualor (Armada)]], so we'd need to make a disambiguation page. We can see this already by looking at [[Snow Cat (Universe)]], which is barren (the very scenario AVP so often tried to address!), and doesn't even admit to the existence of [[Snow Cat (BWU)]] aside from a general Snow Cat disambiguation tag. In some existing cases like [[Steamhammer (BWU)]], we've mirrored a toy writeup, which needs upkeep in parallel; in others, like Snow Cat, we're asking the user to visit the other page to read about the toy ''anyway''. To my mind, this is inarguably less accessible. I don't understand arguments made about accessibility here which are predicated on readers having learned editing policy to begin with, and I don't think this proposal would actually make it any harder to learn the system.
::I regret not listing out all the individual members of those Mini-Con teams above, to better communicate the sheer number of pages that would need to be made (and pages that would need to be renamed, in case of conflicts) to create this inconvenience in service of a rule we've already been ignoring without issue. Nobody wants to do this work, and I think it's less that no-one cares, and more that some people think it'd actually make the wiki worse, and the rest don't particularly think it'd make the wiki better.
::What about just making an exception for Mini-Cons/Micromasters? I've talked about ''Uprising'', but obviously the vast majority of cases that theoretically need splitting aren't from ''Uprising'' at all. Could probably even do a generic template like "X exists in multiple continuity families, and is a Micromaster/Maximal/Predacon in those without Mini-Cons". Thus your Steeljaws and Bisks and Overrides go unchanged, no problems or ambiguity there! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
:Once upon a time, I probably would have pushed for something like this, but where we are now: I am not a fan of any push towards treating something differently based on how "relevant" something is or not. It goes against the very spirit this wiki was founded on, because that is what was happening to the Wikipedia coverage of Transformers where they were just getting rid of things wholesale because of "relevancy." I can understand the basic point behind this, but I feel that doing so would set a bad precedent that could be exploited in the future.
:I'd be fine with splitting most of these out. I've said it before elsewhere but by and large a lot of the inconsistencies were largely the result of different contributors adding stuff or splitting stuff without a general consensus, and they haven't been cleaned up afterwards. Also, a minor note, but the Liftor thing was mainly cause no one noticed at the time until I wrote up about the profile years after the fact. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:26, 6 February 2023 (EST)
::If I gave the impression "relevancy" was the main thrust of my argument here, I didn't mean to! Like, it goes both ways—would we be merging because ''Uprising'' is so irrelevant that we shouldn't devote all these random stub pages to it, ''or'' are we merging because it's sufficiently relevant that we shouldn't be hiding that content in stub pages nobody visits? Either is true! I'm arguing for convenience and clarity. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 17:09, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: This definitely feels like the strongest argument to the merge in my mind. The wiki is no stranger to niche pages, pages for nameless, fictionless, toyless nonentities. But I believe these fictionless toys and toyless fiction which are really the same thing would be a richer niche page for the merges. [[User:Bumblebee2000|Bumblebee2000]] ([[User talk:Bumblebee2000|talk]]) 20:36, 7 February 2023 (EST)
::: I really think that once again, this overrates the number of people who would be confused by this, and underrates the number of people who would be able to figure out where to go if they wish to find the information. Like, I hate to do the whole "I was able to figure it out" thing but I was a small child with a single-digit age when I first discovered the wiki and I was able to figure out pretty quick why it was laid out the way it was. I'm not saying there's no room for improvement; I think there's a lot of cases in which the way we have things set up now is kind of ridiculous. But in this particular case, I don't really see how merging things would be any more convenient than just leaving them the way they are and splitting out the cases that we never got around to. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:52, 7 February 2023 (EST)

Just found some more pages that would need splitting under current policy: [[Crystal Widow]], [[Seawave]], [[Cradon]], [[Freefall (Kre-O)]], [[Liftoff]], and [[Epsilon Holdings]]. All due to ''Uprising'' and ''The Allspark Almanac''. Really hoping someone can propose a solution here that doesn't involve creating a billion pages and disambigs. --[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 09:24, 18 February 2023 (EST)
:We don't split businesses/locations/organizations, so Epsilon Holdings isn't one we need to consider. Kre-O doesn't really occupy a continuity family in our organization and I would just split the rest, especially Crystal Widow. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:28, 18 February 2023 (EST)

Noticed the ''[[Transformers: Earth Wars| Earth Wars]]'' stub templates on Mini-Con pages for [[Wheeljack Kunai]] and [[Bido]]. The game had previously added [[Gabu]], [[Zori]], [[Baru]], [[Bashbreaker]], [[Windstrike]], and [[Tricerashot]]. Following policy, these should ''all'' be split—see [[Giza (POTP)]] and [[Giza (Prime)]], although to be fair they're not the same animal at least. As always, I think the fiction for those toys should go on the pages for those toys. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 12:39, 17 March 2023 (EDT)

Just finished going through documenting the preliminary bios for the [[Night Rescue Team]], [[Predator Attack Team]], and [[Mini-Con Council of Sages]], from when the ''Classics'' Mini-Cons were still going to be released as ''Cybertron'' two-packs, and it occurs to me that if ''all'' of those guys end up getting duplicate pages, the Unicron Trilogy pages would be where that information should probably end up. Right now it's all a bit of a mess, as some of those characters have (Cybertron) pages via the Primus bonus-pack-in, some don't, and others had their names changed from their would've-been ''Cybertron'' incarnations anyway. I've generally tried to stick to linking to the existing pages rather than redlinking—naturally I remain convinced that it'd be for the best if we didn't distinguish between ''Classics'' and ''Cybertron'' at all in this case and just kept all the relevant information for each of those Mini-Cons on one page per; I think [[Liftor]] is proof that this is in fact perfectly fine and much, much less of a headache for readers. See whatever the hell is going on with the page for the [[Night Rescue Team]], which names the patrol car as "[[Strongarm (Classics)|Strongarm]]/[[Strongarm (Cybertron)|Strongarm]]" as though that's something which makes any sense at all. Tangentially, I also reckon the material from these early bios (which evidently made it out via the official Hasbro website ''somehow'') should probably just be written up in fiction sections proper, along the lines of, say, cancelled Dreamwave issues...? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 18:03, 23 April 2023 (EDT)
:The Cybertron Primus pack-in guys had bios written by Sepelak and Troop (who also wrote the bios for the Classics guys) that deliberately made them different characters for the Club website with little in common besides their physical appearances. It's not a case of "old rules" at all, it was something specific done at the time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:28, 23 April 2023 (EDT)

==Wikia links still around?==
https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Smelting_pool&direction=prev&oldid=109505
Are other archived "intermediate / obsolete" edit pages still pointing to Wikia? Or have they been somehow neutralized? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:52, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
:Not exactly sure what you're asking? I mean, the link is literally part of the text in that edit, so it wouldn't be removed. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:25, 25 May 2023 (EDT)
::Is that page (and presumably any other intermediate edit page from those years) still directing search engines to Wikia? Some years ago it was seen as pretty urgent that every last such link be removed, regardless of location. Not "gone from current pages," gone from ''everything''. As I recall, there were even refs to Wikia pre-struck-out on pages so people could only see them in mid-edit, but they were still boosting Wikia's rankings, and an admin had to create a bot to scrape them out of everywhere. If they still persist on hundreds of intermediate edit pages from those years, should those pages be totally erased, as they would be when randos insert porn or hate speech here? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:10, 26 May 2023 (EDT)
:::Historic page revisions are not indexed by Google, so they won't boost Wikia rankings. Those links will be present on any revisions before March 2008, as those revisions are from a backup imported from when the site was on Wikia. We still do have some Wikia links on live pages ([[Miscolorings based on the Generation 1 cartoon]] is an example) but those links will be marked nofollow as all external links are, so they should, in theory, not be boosting Wikia's ranking either. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 18:04, 26 May 2023 (EDT)

== ROTB being a reboot - what should we do with that? ==

I don't necessarily hold an opinion on this issue, but according to an interview with the director of ROTB, Rise of the Beasts will be a reboot of the live-action movie franchise. Will this affect how existing articles are grouped and written? Or does the wiki just consider it a case of authorial intent? ([https://news.tfw2005.com/2023/05/27/transformers-rise-of-the-beasts-director-steven-caple-jr-confirms-rotb-set-in-a-rebooted-universe-484900 source]) [[User:Gigirassy|Gigirassy]] ([[User talk:Gigirassy|talk]]) 16:19, 27 May 2023 (EDT)
:The wiki is intentionally waiting for the movie's official release to make a stand on the matter. Regardless, even if the movie is a reboot it will not affect the wiki as much as you may be thinking it will; both movie series will simply be considered as two different continuities that are still part of the same continuity family overall (just like the multitude of G1 universes out there that are all in the same family). What may or may not happen is some characters may get splitted pages depending on if there's enough evidence for that, but for now all we can do is just wait and see. -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:56, 27 May 2023 (EDT)

== Adaptation notes ==

Can we figure out a way to format this information that isn't an ugly and intrusive note that fucks up the formatting? Like, convert them into storylinks or references. Collapsible notes. Something. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:06, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:(also probably take a weed whacker to the insane number of images people try to stuff into those film sections but that's another discussion) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:09, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
::I second that. Though we would also have to find a place to put the extra information those notes sometimes provide about how the adaptation differs from the source material. Like how [[Optimus Prime (Movie)#Transformers film|Optimus Prime]]'s notes on the 07 movie mention he kills Barricade in the adaptations when that doesn't happen in the movie itself. Or the very recent example of how ROTB [[Wheeljack (ROTB)|Wheeljack]] appears [[Mission at the Museum|in a book based entirely on the half of the movie he wasn't supposed to appear in]]. So how will we deal with that? -- [[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 16:40, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Against this. When it comes to an informational wiki, utility should be a higher priority than aesthetic taste. Speaking of aesthetics, however… [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:We can be informative without haphazardly shoving "hey, here's some inconsequential adaptations you likely don't care about" into readers' faces. Not all information is created equal, as we've already established by hiding any VAs that the great majority of readers don't care about. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:41, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

I'd be against this. The notes make it clear that one thing is an adaptation of another, allow differences to be described succinctly without wholesale repetition of an entire story section, and I honestly think a mass of stoylyinks for every movie character in the first 3 Bay films after their write-up would be far more visually obtrusive and difficult to parse than the note that's already there, for example.[[User:AkibaSilver|AkibaSilver]] ([[User talk:AkibaSilver|talk]]) 22:31, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm gonna more or less agree with the above. Storylinks are ''absolutely'' a bad idea once you get beyond, like, two in a row. And I really don't feel like there's ever going to be enough adaptations of any one thing to justify a whole template, where "voice actors in a dozen languages" and "holy crap they redecoed/retooled/rereleased this toy THIS MANY TIMES" certainly can get hugely bulky. And honestly, if they're not a huge list, I like the easy discoverability of keeping them in a note below; hiding them whiffs of "we should de-prioritize the coloring books and not-current media on character pages" that we rejected from the get-go. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 00:56, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

== Images and formatting ==

Here’s something that baffles me; at least far back as the MP announcement of the Trainbots, there’s been a push by some to remove images from articles for reasons that mostly elude me. I agree that a lot of our older writeups have images that aren’t good, but what I don’t get is the removal of them from sections that only have one image. Sure, a lot of the time it’s for characters that have very minor roles in something, but I’ve always thought that McFeely’s way of making articles (by getting the best possible image of each character in every section whenever possible) is the gold standard for how we make articles. On a loosely related note; I’m not convinced by Sipher’s recent push to align images to the right; I think the alternating thing we usually have is much cleaner (aside from in toy sections). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:29, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
: Opening a section with a left-justified image almost invariably fucks up the normal "flow" of how your eyes move when you reach the end of a line: you move down and ''left'' to the next line. Most of the time, left-justified images at the top of the section push that next line of text to the ''right'' of the header. It may look "better" if you unfocus and just look at the page as a blur, but if you're actually ''reading'' the text, it's a subtle but very there stumbler. If it's a section where there's a "voice actors" bit or a note template ''above'' the image where the end of that is ''definitely'' going to end up beyond the rightmost border of the image, that's fair. ''Every'' image doesn't have to be on the right. Alternating is fine within longer sections. But opening with left should be used sparingly and judiciously. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:24, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

==Two things sandboxed a while ago maybe we might consider==
*[[User:M Sipher/Sandbox:ToysBullets]]
*[[User:M Sipher/sandbox:ToypageAltmodesAdded]]
I mean I'm not gonna lie, these are both in the "oh my grodd so many pages" realm, and worse, they're not something we can really get a bot to do. But, Iunno, something to consider.<br>
The insignia bullet point thing on individual character pages, only so many characters have toys across multiple factions (most would have G1/G2 variants), so this doesn't feel as "important" an addition, but, well. Could be useful. Adding altmodes to the toyline page listings, however, I think there's a decent case for, especially when dealing with obscure toy-only characters in lines loaded to the gills with toys. It'll certianly help the "man I remember I had this cool toy what was its name" searches. And it involves tweaking considerably fewer pages. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 23:09, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
:I'm in favor of the first from a readability standpoint. It just looks better. On the alt modes, I worry it might open the door to edit skirmishes on some of the more vague vehicle modes out there (thinking specifically of Devcon that just came out, or things that are just indeterminate like Cybertron Menasor or Protoform Optimus/Starscream), that just "Cybertronic car/jet/whatever" isn't a common term people outside the Wiki would really think to search, and how specific we'd need to get a la "truck" versus "longnose truck" versus "Peterbilt 379 truck". Hard to call, in my opinion.--[[User:MCRG|MCRG]] ([[User talk:MCRG|talk]]) 23:37, 27 June 2023 (EDT)
::The bullet points hit me a little weird at first but I could get used to them, I think it's a neat idea. And I can see the inclusion of alt modes in toy pages as something useful, though no doubt a lot of pages would have to be slightly rearranged to make room for them. Regardless, I'd gladly give a hand with some of the editing if either one gets approved. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 09:46, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
::: RE: altmodes on toyline pages... As far as "arguments" go, you get those ''anyway''. I think for these pages we can afford a bit of looseness ("red Lamborghini" for 1984 Sideswipe since there's a lot of sports cars (and two Lambos) in that line/assortment, "blue sports car" for Cyb Hot Shot since there are fewer "sports cars" in that line), giving enough for a quick ID'ing. Spacing... yeah, this will stretch the pages vertically a bit, but like, that's generally fine if the space has ''information'' in it. Plus it will likely mean we can add another pic to the right-hand side of many sections, letting us give a few more examples. And it'll beef up the absolutely anemic sections slightly. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 01:53, 29 June 2023 (EDT)
:So, anyone got any objections to these, other than "holy hell that's a lot of manual work"? If anything, it'd also be a good excuse to go in and find out what entries are in need of some sprucing up and getting to today's standards... properly sorting the features into cohesive paragraphs, moving release dates to bullet points, trimming excess or filling out light writeups, making sure links to other toys have the proper anchors, etc. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 21:32, 4 July 2023 (EDT)
::The faction symbols look neat, no issue there. ''Really'' dislike the alt-mode descriptions on the toyline pages; it's a huge amount of visual noise for very little informational gain, not even to mention the actual work involved. I honestly think they would be very error-prone as a rule, or at the very least lead to some extremely tiresome debates—for example, you've labelled Soundwave/Sideways as "Cybertronian" jets, but my understanding is that they're not Cybertronians at all...? Even until pretty recently, I often find myself clicking links on toy pages only to find that they've been broken by the epidemic of "/toys" splits (and then the subsequent merges now that that's being corrected!); so far as I'm concerned, if you're consistently able to click a link on a toyline page and immediately jump to a write-up with an actual image of the toy in question, that'd be far more useful than a brief indicator of alt-mode, especially considering most readers are going to know that Starscream probably turns into "a jet". Something else this has brought to mind for me, though—for the ''Cybertron'' toyline, could be nice to have extra faction bullets for the various Cyber Key types they came with! —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 14:53, 6 July 2023 (EDT)
::: Late to the party, but I've seen some of the faction bullets have been implemented in some character articles and I really like how they look. I think it will also help in the long run with figures that are marketed as a certain faction on Hasbro's websites or packaging, but not on the toy itself or utilized in any fiction. Like, for example: ''Studio Series'' Sentinel Prime. His packaging features a Decepticon insignia, while his instructions feature an Autobot insignia, which means the toy is marketed as both factions, even if both insignia are absent on the toy itself. The alt-mode descriptors, on the other hand, are a no from me, better to leave those kinds of specifics to the toy write ups themselves, as some toy listings in toyline articles are already pretty cluttered as it is, due to all of the characters included in some sets. -- [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 01:20, 5 August 2023 (EDT)

== Alternators/Binaltech headers on toy pages ==

It feels like something from the old days of the wiki that has become outdated by our modern standards. Binaltech is not its own toyline, it's just the Takara version of Alternators, as reflected by both lines [[Transformers: Alternators|sharing the same page]]. So I propose we stop using "Alternators/Binaltech" headers on toy pages. Keep "Binaltech" on characters that ''only'' have Takara toys and standardize to just "Alternators" on all pages with either only Hasbro toys or both Hasbro and Takara toys. To use similar examples, we only have "[[Fortress Maximus (RID)#Car Robots|Car Robots]]" and "[[Lockdown (RID)#Adventure|Adventure]]" headers on Takara-only toy pages, while all other pages have "Robots in Disguise (2001)" and "Robots in Disguise (2015)" regardless of if they have Takara toys or not. There's no "Robots in Disguise/Car Robots" or "Robots in Disguise/Adventure" headers. So can we please start using the same standard to Alternators? --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 14:58, 29 June 2023 (EDT)

== Energon Universe coverage ==

With Void Rivals #2 due out next week, I think we need to start a discussion about how much coverage we give non-TF issues in the Energon Universe. This isn't like IDW where the shared universe element came years later; we're starting out on the ground floor, with Transformers part of the universe from the very first released issue. It's going to be closely involved with all the comics going forward, so I think we need to figure out if we're going to cover everything, and if not, what qualifies for coverage. For example, it sounds like Energon is going to be a recurring element in both Void Rivals and G.I. Joe. Is that alone enough to qualify, or do there need to be actual Transformers characters? I think we need to start asking these sorts of questions so we can figure out the scope of our coverage. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 23:39, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I'm fine with covering everything. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 23:42, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:I am also in favor of covering it all, the universe has established immediately that Transformers seem to be intrinsic to it, and this way we can keep all reading to one wiki. [[User:McBaggins|McBaggins]] ([[User talk:McBaggins|talk]]) 23:46, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
::Agreed. They are presenting it as a shared, intrinsically connected universe - and yeah it's called the Energon Universe so that's very clearly transformery to us unless energon moves on from here to be a generic hasbroverse term, which we doubt. [[User:Causeway|Causeway]] ([[User talk:Causeway|talk]]) 23:52, 10 July 2023 (EDT)
:Yeah. I think "cover everything" is the best approach to begin with, and then if we want to discuss splitting things off at a later date we can do that. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 00:00, 11 July 2023 (EDT)
:Nothing against a "cover everything" either. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] ([[User talk:Lonegamer78|talk]]) 00:53, 12 July 2023 (EDT)

==Stock image sizes==
Okay, I wanted to bring this up before going on a revertathon but... is there ANY need for HD stock imagery here? Frankly, 4000x2000 images at nearly a meg each seems like absolute overkill and just adding incrementally to server load (good god various Optimuses' toy pages are bad enough as it is, we prolly shouldn't be doing things to make that worse). We just need images big enough to be clear, we're not here to archive print-quality images. I've been sticking to a general 600px vertical with the odd 700px for bigger/more involved toys when doing pics, and like, that sure seems more than fine. Once you hit 1000px it feels real excessive. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:01, 3 August 2023 (EDT)

== Video game cameos ==

{{collist|2|
*[[Kunai]]
*[[Sawtooth (G1)]]
*[[Tricerashot (G1)]]
*[[Windstrike (G1)]]
*[[Zori (G1)]]
*[[Bashbreaker (G1)]]
*[[Baru (G1)]]
*[[Bido (G1)]]
*[[Gabu (G1)]]}}

I'm not seeing the point in being persnickety about continuity families when it comes to mobile game cameos, especially when said game already has established characters from other continuity families. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 16:52, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:If you bothered to do some due diligence, you would know these guys are selectable for individual play, not "cameos". As long as our continuity family policy remains in place, they merit pages just as ''Prime'' Knock Out's G1 transplant does. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:56, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
::Dude, they're support units without any real role in the story (which, again, includes multiversal travelers already). That's cameo level to me. It's not comparable to Knock Out. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:04, 6 August 2023 (EDT)
:::Late, but they're definitely not cameos. The COMBAT bots frequently have their own dialogue and play a part in the event storylines. They're probably ''exactly'' the same situation as Knock Out, who so far as I can tell was introduced without any fanfare as to whether he's a native to the ''Earth Wars'' universe or a dimension-hopper. The same even appears true of "Breakdown Prime"! In the past, when characters from other continuities have shown up, there's always been lots of hullabaloo in the dialogues explaining where they've come from. It's silly to make definitive claims one way or another until we successfully scrape the scripts from the last couple of years and can read everything, so under current wiki policy unless someone can produce dialogues where Windstrike says "whoa, this Earth Wars universe is crazy, not at all like my home reality!" we just have to assume they're G1 versions of those characters and give them separate pages. Personally, I would actually ''agree'' that it's really silly to have created all of these tiny stub pages for these so-called "continuity transplants", and even brought up the fact earlier on the Portal that nobody had seemed to consider it problematic when they were all just lumped in on the Aligned pages, but if this is how it's gotta be then someone who feels strongly about the split oughta commit to having the coverage on the G1 pages, not the Aligned pages, and disambiguate between them properly. —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 08:14, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Subcategory trimming ==

Looking at some of our character categories, such as the subcats under [[:Category:Generation 1 Autobots]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Decepticons]], I'm starting to wonder if all of these are strictly necessary. I think there's merit to having categories for whole franchises, but I'm unsure whether we necessarily need to add more categories for inclusion in specific media or toylines, like "G1 cartoon Autobots" or "G1 toy Decepticons"; after a while, it starts to feel a little excessive and perhaps even counterproductive. Thoughts? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:44, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:On the one hand, with "G1" being basically Brobdingnagian in scope, I think media/toyline subcategorization is definitely important... but I'm unsold in either direction on if the Autobot/Decep split in said subcats are necessary. I ''will'' put forward the argument ''for'' the subcategorization that categories are a very helpful method of quick-checking "who's in group x", especially with something as massive as "the Marvel comics cast". Looking for obscure comic Decepticons to maybe feature in something is a lot easier when you don't have to fish through a list that also includes every obscure comic-only Autobot. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
:: I"m good for keeping "Generation 1 cartoon" and "Marvel comic" categories the way we do with Dreamwave, IDW1, and IDW2 characters (although I think that the Marvel category should be merged with the preexisting [[:Category:Regeneration One Decepticons]] into a single "Marvel Comics continuity" category). "Generation 1 toy" seems... less necessary to me. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:31, 23 August 2023 (EDT)
::: The [[:Category:Generation 1 Seekers]] and [[:Category:Generation 1 Aerialbots]] categories are good and useful categories to me, as the subgroup is the main thing, in these cases (IMO), and the subgroups have been divided on the franchise/continuity-family level.--[[User:Karanseraph|Karanseraph]] ([[User talk:Karanseraph|talk]]) 12:25, 25 August 2023 (EDT)
I would definitely dump the Regeneration One categories. It's just a miniseries, and not a very impactful one at that. Plus, 99% of those characters are already in Marvel G1 anyway. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:30, 25 August 2023 (EDT)

== Wiki Format ==

I have a question regarding the set-up of this site. It is one of the only ones I've seen not using fandom and has a nice set up. The Gundam fandom users are talking about maybe moving off of fandom, and this site has shown promising to be a potential new site if a similar format can be created but changed to be Gundam style. I know of someone who "runs" the wiki, and would like to possibly get in contact with them to look at this and see if its plausible replacement for that. If anyone can do something like that, or if it's not possible to use this format like that, then please lmk, thnx! [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 11:29, 7 September 2023 (EDT)

User talk:FigureGunplaFan

2023-09-07T14:30:04Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Siege Soundwave photos */

We need photos of opened toys in all their modes for toy sections, not packaged toy photos, sorry. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:28, 4 March 2014 (EST)
: Apologies, Walky. I'll won't make the same mistake next time. I'll just try to look some official images (with no packaging) '''if possible'''. Oh wait, I already have them. (but not that much.) --[[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 4th of March, 2014

== User images ==

Please pick only one userpage-specific image to keep. You're only allowed one. The rest have to go. Thank you. --[[User:Inkblot|Inkblot]] ([[User talk:Inkblot|talk]]) 09:44, 27 April 2014 (EDT)
: Done. =3= --[[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 27th of April, 2014
::Um, not exactly. Allow me to try and clarify: These images (cut deleted links) are used ''solely'' in your userpage. You're only allowed to keep one. The rest will be deleted. Hope this clears thigs up. --[[User:Inkblot|Inkblot]] ([[User talk:Inkblot|talk]]) 15:11, 27 April 2014 (EDT)
:::OK, fixed. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 28th of April, 2014

==Norio Wakamoto==

Just curious where you got the info on Wakamoto as AOE Galvatron. I couldn't find anything on Japanese language pages re; Wakamoto amd Age of Extinction. Recently, a different user added numerous erroneous credits to Wakamoto's article, which is why I'm curious, as there seems to be a font of misinformation regarding his Transformers credits out there somewhere. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:02, 15 July 2014 (EDT)

:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvatron#Transformers:_Age_of_Extinction Here.] [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:26, 15 July 2014

::Well, that was added by an anonymous user on Wikipedia who didn't cite any sources. I've researched the Japanese sites using various permutations of Wakamoto's name and related Transformers terms and haven't found any evidence confirming his casting as Galvatron. While it may very well turn out to be true once the film is released in Japan this August, at this juncture there isn't any solid evidence confirming such casting. This isn't any knock against you, we've just been having trouble lately with uncited voice acting credits being attributed to actors and an unreferenced credit on a Wikipedia article isn't a reliable source. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:40, 15 July 2014 (EDT)

==Robots in Disguise (2001) images==
Why are you uploading ''Robots in Disguise'' episode screencaps that are identical to ones that are already uploaded, but are smaller and have worse color balance? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 07:30, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
:Well...those reuploaded screencaps are from the DVD release of Car Robots, so I thought the picture quality of the episodes are good, so I reupload them. You can undo the pictures if you don't like it. Sorry for the trouble.--[[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 08:00pm, 1 April 2015 (MYT)
::You took them as a PrintScreen cap, rather than saving the image directly using something like VLC, didn't you? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 11:19, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
:::FigureG, going through your other Car Robots/RID uploads, some of them ARE quality improvements, such as Hightower, Heavy Load, and Sky-Byte at sunset. As such, I left those alone. However, the random laser beam in the Heavy Load shot is not appropriate for a main image. That will need to be retaken/replaced.
:::Regarding any future screencap replacements... depending on the software you're using to screenshot, you're not going to get the best quality out of a given image, even if it's taken from a DVD source. I usually use Photoshop to adjust the "levels"/color balance of an image so it appears more vibrant. If you could provide more info on the process you use to take your screenshots, we can make sure things flow better going forward. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 00:51, 2 April 2015 (EDT)

=={{tl|stock}}==
If there's no series-specific tag, please use {{tl|toystock}} for toy stock images. (or, if it would go in the Merchandise section of a page, {{tl|merchandisestock}}) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 11:19, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
:OK, got it. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 10:50a.m, (MYT)

==Images of ''Unite Warriors'' toys==
I just made a category for ''[[Transformers Unite Warriors|Unite Warriors]]'' toys yesterday. If you upload any more images of ''Unite Warriors'' toys, I'd appreciate it if you place them in [[:Category:Unite Warriors toy images]]. Thanks! -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:19, 9 February 2016 (EST)

:Understood. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:04, 9 February 2016 (EST)

==BotCon Magnaboss==
A quick note since you seem to be misinformed - there's no BotCon-exclusive versions of Silverbolt, Prowl and Ironhide. They're just selling sticker sheets to go on the retail versions of those figures. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 08:43, 9 April 2016 (EDT)
:Oh...sorry, mate. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 09:05, 9 April 2016 (EDT)

==Mold templates==
Stop removing the non-breaking spaces from them. They are there so that a specific toy doesn't have its information broken along multiple lines. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:32, 10 April 2016 (EDT)
:Oh, understood...=3= [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:27, 10 April 2016 (EDT)
::And please stop putting the templates at the top of sections. That is painfully ugly. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:07, 12 April 2016 (EDT)
:::Oops. Ok. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]])
::::Once again, ''stop'' removing nonbreaking spaces. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:57, 18 April 2016 (EDT)

== Titans Return images ==

Could you also splice robot mode and head mode images together for Monxo, Furos, Grax, Hyperfire, Sovereign, Nucleon? I would like to, but my photoshop skills are nonexistent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 23:35, 7 September 2016 (EDT)
:On it. (On the other hand, I've used the copy and paste + select and transparent section + resizing from MS Paint.) Unfortunately, it seems that Furos, Hyperfire, Grax, & Nucleon doesn't have a pic of their own respective heads. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 18:35, 8 September 2016 (EDT)

== Bwahahaha! ==

Always happy to help out. You generally have good content to add, so it's not that big a deal to edit it for you. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:58, 29 November 2016 (EST)

== Cogman and Nitro Zeus ==

You do not need to add this to every single Titan Master/Headmaster article. It's pedantic, cluttering, and annoying. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:06, 30 August 2017 (EDT)
:Sorry. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 20:07, 30 August 2017 (EDT)

== Ironjam caption ==

i have [[Ironjam#Toys|augmented]] the [[Ironjam|Iron]][[jaAm]] joke. Request permission to change the main pic caption to ''Keep [[JaAm|that]] Hot Shot away from me!!!''

What do you say?

--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 18:15, 10 December 2017 (EST)

:Go ahead. Alterations are allowed. (even though you're already changed it) [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 21:52, 10 December 2017 (EST)

== Deluxe and Legion Hot Rod general retail release? ==

Hey, what evidence do you have of Deluxe and Legion Hot Rod seeing a general retail release besides the exclusive Autobots Unite versions? I know they're listed at several retailers' websites, but to my knowledge they were never actually stocked and I've also never come across an actual sighting.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 06:13, 27 January 2018 (EST)
:OK, I'm pretty much misinformed. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 06:23, 27 January 2018 (EST)
::You claimed they were released a month after the Walmart versions. Where did you get this information?--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 06:25, 27 January 2018 (EST)
:::I found this at TFW2005's news section. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 09:57, 27 January 2018 (EST)
::::P.S.: IF this was misinformation, I can edit it. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 09:57, 27 January 2018 (EST)

== Authentics vs. Cyberverse ==

FYI, Authentics and Cyberverse are two separate toylines. They draw on the same base character designs, but each have their own art style and branding. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:23, 15 February 2018 (EST)
:Alright, noted. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 13:03, 15 February 2018 (EST)

== Stinger pic ==

"TakaraTomy (Robot Mode) and Hasbro (Vehicle Mode) Stock photos of Studio Series Deluxe Decepticon Stinger, with the bordered pic depicts a vehicle mode stock photography from Takara that is missing two rear view mirror pieces. " The file you uploaded doesn't have any "bordered pic"and the vehicle mode does not have rear view mirrors. Is the vehicle mode pic the Hasbro or the Takara version? Did you perhaps upload the wrong version of the file? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:27, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
Nevermind, it appears to have been a cache issue on my end. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:34, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

== Godbomber ==

You do not need to mention every single combination possible in every toy writeup. A note in Godbomber's own section about his CW compatibility is sufficient. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 12 September 2018 (EDT)
:OK. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 13:44, 12 September 2018 (EDT)

== Image categories ==

Remember that when you update and remove stock image templates, you have to manually add in the relevant category for the toy series. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:16, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
:Ah yes, I didn't think about that. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:45, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

== Please clarify ==

"Meanwhile, Repugnus & Grotusque are re-released without changes and the Scorponok Titan Master included in Grotusque." The part about the Scorponok Titan Master doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to say here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 07:34, 4 October 2018 (EDT)
:Apologies. I was meant to say that this set doesn't come with that Titan Master. I'll fix it right away. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 08:02, 4 October 2018 (EDT)

== ele.me Optimus Prime ==

Dunno if this is official or not, but when their is an announcment, you mind putting this on the relevant pages? https://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/155525-eleme-delivery-blue-mp-10-convoy-sqweeks/ [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:18, 28 October 2018 (EDT)
:I have to check it's box art first, to determine whether this had the Takara logo. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 23:05, 28 October 2018 (EDT)

== DOTM Blaster ==

Hey what's the source of [[:File:TF-DOTM-Deluxe-Blaster-Prototype.jpg|this image]]? Thanks. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 15:48, 27 January 2019 (EST)
:Very likely to be from BWTF. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 20:25, 27 January 2019 (EST)
::Okay, confirmed it. I'll add it to the image. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 21:49, 31 January 2019 (EST)

== Please correctly categorize your images ==

While the images you photograph are really good, you should categorize them better. Often times, you forget to put the proper category for their respective toyline, or you just put no categories at all. I fixed some, but I won't bother with the rest. So, in the future, when you upload more, please keep this in mind, thanks. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 22:46, 2 March 2019 (EST)

:Noted. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 23:18, 2 March 2019 (EST)

== Jetfire (G1)/toys - Generations Silver Jetfire ==

For the Lucky Draw Silver Jetfire, the description mentions "answers" without the actual question. Could you please elaborate on this? What was the original question, did you have to answer it to enter or to claim the prize if chosen, etc. --[[User:King Starscream|King Starscream]] ([[User talk:King Starscream|talk]]) 11:40, 10 July 2019 (EDT)
:Ah yes. I forgot. [[https://news.tfw2005.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/09/Transformers-Generations-Silver-Jetfire_1410768633.jpg The question is about which alt mode Jetfire turns into]]. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 11:49, 10 July 2019 (EDT)

== Generations stock images ==

This adds on to what I said earlier this year. You've been posting stock images just with the <nowiki>{{generationsstock}}</nowiki> template. For a while now, we have had specific stock image templates for sublines of ''Generations''. Check [[:Category:Stock_image_templates]] if you're uploading a ''Generations'' stock image, since it would likely have a specific template for it's subline. For all the ''Siege'' stock images you've uploaded, you would use <nowiki>{{WFCSstock}}</nowiki>. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 15:06, 19 July 2019 (EDT)
:Noted. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:55, 19 July 2019 (EDT)
::I fixed the rest of the Siege toy pics you uploaded to use the Siege template, rather than Generations. It's just easier if you use to the correct template when you upload it, rather than someone else fixing it after, so please please start using those templates. Though, I understand why not for Earthrise, since it doesn't have a template yet. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 13:38, 5 October 2019 (EDT)
:::Understood. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 21:28, 5 October 2019 (EDT)
::::Thanks! [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 00:16, 6 October 2019 (EDT)

== TFTM Screencaps ==

Thanks for replacing those movie screenshots! If you get the chance, could you also get the others listed in the [[:Category:Images_to_be_replaced|"To be replaced" category]]? My version is unfortunately widescreen, so I can't do it myself. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:55, 14 June 2020 (EDT)
:No prob. I'm working on it. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 01:04, 14 June 2020 (EDT)

== Alternate version of RID 2015 commercial ==
Hi, I see you added an entry to the commercial page for an alternate version of the One Step and Three Step Changers ad from RID 2015, that includes [[:File:Transformers-RID2015-spring-CM-ver-2-Optimus-Prime.jpg|this shot]] of a kid holding Optimus Prime. Would you happen to still have a link or the video itself saved? I've not been able to find it anywhere myself. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:01, 3 August 2020 (EDT)
:Sadly, even though I remembered that I saved this video a few years ago, I think it's forever lost. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 23:45, 6 August 2020 (EDT)

== That caption's a whopper. ==

Hi, trying not to step on anyone's toes. [https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hot_Rod_(G1)/toys&diff=prev&oldid=1374508 In this edit,] did you intend to quote Hot Rod's line from [[TFTM]], or did you deliberately alter it? (i think the exact quote is, "Yep, it's a whopper, all right.")

Maybe a link to [[Burger King]] or [[Robert Stack|Robert]] [[Stackticon]]? ...No, didn't think so.

[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 00:30, 22 December 2020 (EST)

:Yes, I altered it. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 02:45, 22 December 2020 (EST)

== ''Siege'' Soundwave photos ==

Hey, just wanted to point out that the the waist should be rotated 180 degrees for the lamp post mode, so that the legs are backwards and the cockpit is facing forward. I actually kept the box flap to keep as a reference for myself when messing with the figure. Aside from that the photos look great! [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:52, 4 January 2021 (EST)
:I see. And thanks! [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:14, 4 January 2021 (EST)
:Wait, you take those photos? I thought they were officials! You're good. [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 10:30, 7 September 2023 (EDT)

== Scourge image ==

Please upload that Scourge image as its own image. The file you replaced was used by one of the FunPub Facebook pages, and should remain how it looked in 2016 for accuracy. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:48, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
:Alright. (But I didn't know it was a similar one used by FunPub's FB page, since I made that restoration by myself before you acknowledged it) [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 10:51, 24 September 2021 (EDT)

== Unrelated ==

Not related to tformers but idk if theres a spot for it, but have you finished Witch from Mercury, cause damn. Fellow gundam fan here, lol. [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:28, 5 September 2023 (EDT)

Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers Again

2023-09-06T17:03:12Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Toys */

{{nav-bwa}}

'''''Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers Again''''' (ビーストウォーズ超生命体トランスフォーマーアゲイン) is a [[TakaraTomy]] franchise beginning in [[2023]]. ''Beast Wars Again'' features molds from ''[[War for Cybertron: Kingdom]]'' and ''[[Transformers: Legacy|Legacy]]'' [[redeco]]ed to be [[show-accuracy|show-accurate]], and was done to tie into the appearance of ''Beast Wars''-original characters in ''[[Transformers: Rise of the Beasts (franchise)|Rise of the Beasts]]''.

''Beast Wars Again'' product is sold in packs of two replicating the old "VS sets" from the original [[Transformers: Beast Wars (Japanese toyline)|Japanese ''Beast Wars'' toyline]]. The retro packaging duplicating said VS sets is in turn packed in a plainer brown cardboard box and comes with a sleeve cover that has a more modern visual design.

==Cartoon==
[[File:BW Again poster.jpg|upright=1.4|right|thumb|We're back! For the [[Beast Machines: Transformers (franchise)#Beast Wars Returns|very]] [[Beast Wars Reborn|first]] [[Transformers: Beast Wars Telemocha Series|time!]]]]
{{main|Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)#Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers}}
The ''Beast Wars Again'' toyline is accompanied by a re-airing of "selected episodes" of the [[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)#Beast Wars: Super Lifeform Transformers|original ''Beast Wars cartoon'']] broadcast on [[TV Tokyo]] and on the TakaraTomy YouTube channel, now carved up into fifteen minute chunks and featuring new narration by [[Kappei Yamaguchi]] in-character as [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]].
{{collist|3|
# "[[Beast Wars (Part 1)|Enter the Super Lifeform Transformers (Part 1)]]"
# "[[Beast Wars (Part 1)|Enter the Super Lifeform Transformers (Part 2)]]"
# "[[Beast Wars (Part 2)|Beat the Destrons]]"
# "[[Beast Wars (Part 2)|Beat the Destrons (Part 2)]]"
# "[[The Web|Cheetus's Crisis]]"
# "[[The Web|Cheetus's Crisis (Part 2)]]"
# "[[Fallen Comrades|The Solitary Warrior Tigatron]]"
# "[[Fallen Comrades|The Solitary Warrior Tigatron (Part 2)]]"
# "[[Double Jeopardy|Kick of the Spider Woman]]"
# "[[Double Jeopardy|Kick of the Spider Woman (Part 2)]]"
# "[[The Spark|The Falcon Warrior Airazor]]"
# "[[The Spark|The Falcon Warrior Airazor (Part 2)]]"
# "[[Victory (episode)|The Destrons' Dramatic Finish]]"
# "[[Victory (episode)|The Destrons' Dramatic Finish (Part 2)]]"
# "[[Double Dinobot|Two Dinobots?]]"
# "[[Double Dinobot|Two Dinobots? (Part 2)]]"
# "[[Spider's Game|The Ant Warrior from Hell, Inferno]]"
# "[[Spider's Game|The Ant Warrior from Hell, Inferno (Part 2)]]"
# "[[Call of the Wild|Revive, Beast Power!]]"
# "[[Call of the Wild|Revive, Beast Power! (Part 2)]]"
# "[[The Low Road|Stop the Sneezing]]"
# "[[The Low Road|Stop the Sneezing (Part 2)]]"
# "[[Law of the Jungle|Fare Thee Well, Tigatron]]"
}}

{{--}}

==Toys==
{| style="margin-left:1em;" width="100%"
|width="25%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 1''' ([[August 26]], [[2023]])</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-m1p1|BWVS-01 Eternal Beast Showdown:<br>[[Optimus Primal (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Again|Convoy]] VS [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Again|Megatron]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="25%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 2''' ([[September 30]], 2023)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-m1p1|BWVS-02 Tough Showdown:<br>[[Rhinox (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Again|Rhinox]] VS [[Scorponok (BW)#Beast Wars Again|Scorpos]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="25%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 3''' ([[October 28]], 2023)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-m1p1|BWVS-03 Instant Showdown:<br>[[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Again|Cheetus]] VS [[Waspinator (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Again|Waspeeter]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="25%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 4''' ([[November 25]], 2023)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-m1p1|BWVS-04 Tenacious Showdown:<br>[[Tigatron#Beast Wars Again|Tigatron]] VS [[Blackarachnia (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Again|Blackwidow]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="25%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 5''' ([[December 30]], 2023)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-m1p1|BWVS-05 Screaming Showdown:<br>[[Rattrap (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Again|Rattle]] VS [[Terrorsaur (BW)#Beast Wars Again|Terrorsaurer]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="25%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 6''' ([[January 27]], 2024)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-m1p1|BWVS-06 Treacherous Showdown:<br>[[Dinobot (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Again|Dinobot]] VS [[Tarantulas (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Again|Tarans]]}}
</ul>
|
|width="25%" valign="top"|<u>'''Wave 7''' ([[February 24]], 2024)</u>
<ul class="iconlist">
{{Bp-m1p1|BWVS-07 Loyal Retainer Showdown:<br>[[Airazor (BW)#Beast Wars Again|Airazor]] VS [[Inferno (BW)#Beast Wars Again|Inferno]]}}
</ul>
|width="20%" valign="top"|
|}

{{comingsoontoy|Wave 2 onwards}}

==Merchandise==
*''[[Beast Wars Transformers Songs Best ~Again~]]'', a rerelease of the 1999 compilation soundtrack ''[[Beast Wars Transformer Songs Best]]'' with the additional song of "[[CAN WE PLAY OFF]]."

==External links==
*[https://tf.takaratomy.co.jp/tf_bwagain/ ''Beast Wars Again''] on the TakaraTomy website
*[https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhWipIfRhqz3PrXMjzbUzML4fDJLdGEYO ''Beast Wars Again''] on the TakaraTomy YouTube channel
*[https://columbia.jp/prod-info/COCX-42064/ ''Beast Wars Transformers Songs Best ~Again~''] at the website of Japanese record label {{w|Nippon Columbia}}.

==See also==
*[[Beast Wars Reborn]]
*[[Transformers: Beast Wars Telemocha Series]]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Beast Wars Again}}
[[Category:Beast Wars toylines|Again]]
[[Category:Beast Wars Again| ]]
[[Category:Japanese toylines]]
[[Category:Reissue toylines]]

User talk:FigureGunplaFan

2023-09-05T13:28:34Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Unrelated */ new section

We need photos of opened toys in all their modes for toy sections, not packaged toy photos, sorry. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 00:28, 4 March 2014 (EST)
: Apologies, Walky. I'll won't make the same mistake next time. I'll just try to look some official images (with no packaging) '''if possible'''. Oh wait, I already have them. (but not that much.) --[[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 4th of March, 2014

== User images ==

Please pick only one userpage-specific image to keep. You're only allowed one. The rest have to go. Thank you. --[[User:Inkblot|Inkblot]] ([[User talk:Inkblot|talk]]) 09:44, 27 April 2014 (EDT)
: Done. =3= --[[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 27th of April, 2014
::Um, not exactly. Allow me to try and clarify: These images (cut deleted links) are used ''solely'' in your userpage. You're only allowed to keep one. The rest will be deleted. Hope this clears thigs up. --[[User:Inkblot|Inkblot]] ([[User talk:Inkblot|talk]]) 15:11, 27 April 2014 (EDT)
:::OK, fixed. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 28th of April, 2014

==Norio Wakamoto==

Just curious where you got the info on Wakamoto as AOE Galvatron. I couldn't find anything on Japanese language pages re; Wakamoto amd Age of Extinction. Recently, a different user added numerous erroneous credits to Wakamoto's article, which is why I'm curious, as there seems to be a font of misinformation regarding his Transformers credits out there somewhere. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:02, 15 July 2014 (EDT)

:[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvatron#Transformers:_Age_of_Extinction Here.] [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:26, 15 July 2014

::Well, that was added by an anonymous user on Wikipedia who didn't cite any sources. I've researched the Japanese sites using various permutations of Wakamoto's name and related Transformers terms and haven't found any evidence confirming his casting as Galvatron. While it may very well turn out to be true once the film is released in Japan this August, at this juncture there isn't any solid evidence confirming such casting. This isn't any knock against you, we've just been having trouble lately with uncited voice acting credits being attributed to actors and an unreferenced credit on a Wikipedia article isn't a reliable source. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:40, 15 July 2014 (EDT)

==Robots in Disguise (2001) images==
Why are you uploading ''Robots in Disguise'' episode screencaps that are identical to ones that are already uploaded, but are smaller and have worse color balance? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 07:30, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
:Well...those reuploaded screencaps are from the DVD release of Car Robots, so I thought the picture quality of the episodes are good, so I reupload them. You can undo the pictures if you don't like it. Sorry for the trouble.--[[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 08:00pm, 1 April 2015 (MYT)
::You took them as a PrintScreen cap, rather than saving the image directly using something like VLC, didn't you? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 11:19, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
:::FigureG, going through your other Car Robots/RID uploads, some of them ARE quality improvements, such as Hightower, Heavy Load, and Sky-Byte at sunset. As such, I left those alone. However, the random laser beam in the Heavy Load shot is not appropriate for a main image. That will need to be retaken/replaced.
:::Regarding any future screencap replacements... depending on the software you're using to screenshot, you're not going to get the best quality out of a given image, even if it's taken from a DVD source. I usually use Photoshop to adjust the "levels"/color balance of an image so it appears more vibrant. If you could provide more info on the process you use to take your screenshots, we can make sure things flow better going forward. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 00:51, 2 April 2015 (EDT)

=={{tl|stock}}==
If there's no series-specific tag, please use {{tl|toystock}} for toy stock images. (or, if it would go in the Merchandise section of a page, {{tl|merchandisestock}}) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 11:19, 1 April 2015 (EDT)
:OK, got it. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] 10:50a.m, (MYT)

==Images of ''Unite Warriors'' toys==
I just made a category for ''[[Transformers Unite Warriors|Unite Warriors]]'' toys yesterday. If you upload any more images of ''Unite Warriors'' toys, I'd appreciate it if you place them in [[:Category:Unite Warriors toy images]]. Thanks! -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 12:19, 9 February 2016 (EST)

:Understood. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:04, 9 February 2016 (EST)

==BotCon Magnaboss==
A quick note since you seem to be misinformed - there's no BotCon-exclusive versions of Silverbolt, Prowl and Ironhide. They're just selling sticker sheets to go on the retail versions of those figures. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 08:43, 9 April 2016 (EDT)
:Oh...sorry, mate. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 09:05, 9 April 2016 (EDT)

==Mold templates==
Stop removing the non-breaking spaces from them. They are there so that a specific toy doesn't have its information broken along multiple lines. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:32, 10 April 2016 (EDT)
:Oh, understood...=3= [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:27, 10 April 2016 (EDT)
::And please stop putting the templates at the top of sections. That is painfully ugly. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 11:07, 12 April 2016 (EDT)
:::Oops. Ok. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]])
::::Once again, ''stop'' removing nonbreaking spaces. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 08:57, 18 April 2016 (EDT)

== Titans Return images ==

Could you also splice robot mode and head mode images together for Monxo, Furos, Grax, Hyperfire, Sovereign, Nucleon? I would like to, but my photoshop skills are nonexistent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 23:35, 7 September 2016 (EDT)
:On it. (On the other hand, I've used the copy and paste + select and transparent section + resizing from MS Paint.) Unfortunately, it seems that Furos, Hyperfire, Grax, & Nucleon doesn't have a pic of their own respective heads. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 18:35, 8 September 2016 (EDT)

== Bwahahaha! ==

Always happy to help out. You generally have good content to add, so it's not that big a deal to edit it for you. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 12:58, 29 November 2016 (EST)

== Cogman and Nitro Zeus ==

You do not need to add this to every single Titan Master/Headmaster article. It's pedantic, cluttering, and annoying. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:06, 30 August 2017 (EDT)
:Sorry. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 20:07, 30 August 2017 (EDT)

== Ironjam caption ==

i have [[Ironjam#Toys|augmented]] the [[Ironjam|Iron]][[jaAm]] joke. Request permission to change the main pic caption to ''Keep [[JaAm|that]] Hot Shot away from me!!!''

What do you say?

--[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 18:15, 10 December 2017 (EST)

:Go ahead. Alterations are allowed. (even though you're already changed it) [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 21:52, 10 December 2017 (EST)

== Deluxe and Legion Hot Rod general retail release? ==

Hey, what evidence do you have of Deluxe and Legion Hot Rod seeing a general retail release besides the exclusive Autobots Unite versions? I know they're listed at several retailers' websites, but to my knowledge they were never actually stocked and I've also never come across an actual sighting.--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 06:13, 27 January 2018 (EST)
:OK, I'm pretty much misinformed. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 06:23, 27 January 2018 (EST)
::You claimed they were released a month after the Walmart versions. Where did you get this information?--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 06:25, 27 January 2018 (EST)
:::I found this at TFW2005's news section. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 09:57, 27 January 2018 (EST)
::::P.S.: IF this was misinformation, I can edit it. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 09:57, 27 January 2018 (EST)

== Authentics vs. Cyberverse ==

FYI, Authentics and Cyberverse are two separate toylines. They draw on the same base character designs, but each have their own art style and branding. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:23, 15 February 2018 (EST)
:Alright, noted. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 13:03, 15 February 2018 (EST)

== Stinger pic ==

"TakaraTomy (Robot Mode) and Hasbro (Vehicle Mode) Stock photos of Studio Series Deluxe Decepticon Stinger, with the bordered pic depicts a vehicle mode stock photography from Takara that is missing two rear view mirror pieces. " The file you uploaded doesn't have any "bordered pic"and the vehicle mode does not have rear view mirrors. Is the vehicle mode pic the Hasbro or the Takara version? Did you perhaps upload the wrong version of the file? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:27, 21 May 2018 (EDT)
Nevermind, it appears to have been a cache issue on my end. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:34, 21 May 2018 (EDT)

== Godbomber ==

You do not need to mention every single combination possible in every toy writeup. A note in Godbomber's own section about his CW compatibility is sufficient. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:43, 12 September 2018 (EDT)
:OK. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 13:44, 12 September 2018 (EDT)

== Image categories ==

Remember that when you update and remove stock image templates, you have to manually add in the relevant category for the toy series. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:16, 24 September 2018 (EDT)
:Ah yes, I didn't think about that. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:45, 24 September 2018 (EDT)

== Please clarify ==

"Meanwhile, Repugnus & Grotusque are re-released without changes and the Scorponok Titan Master included in Grotusque." The part about the Scorponok Titan Master doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to say here? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 07:34, 4 October 2018 (EDT)
:Apologies. I was meant to say that this set doesn't come with that Titan Master. I'll fix it right away. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 08:02, 4 October 2018 (EDT)

== ele.me Optimus Prime ==

Dunno if this is official or not, but when their is an announcment, you mind putting this on the relevant pages? https://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/155525-eleme-delivery-blue-mp-10-convoy-sqweeks/ [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:18, 28 October 2018 (EDT)
:I have to check it's box art first, to determine whether this had the Takara logo. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 23:05, 28 October 2018 (EDT)

== DOTM Blaster ==

Hey what's the source of [[:File:TF-DOTM-Deluxe-Blaster-Prototype.jpg|this image]]? Thanks. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 15:48, 27 January 2019 (EST)
:Very likely to be from BWTF. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 20:25, 27 January 2019 (EST)
::Okay, confirmed it. I'll add it to the image. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 21:49, 31 January 2019 (EST)

== Please correctly categorize your images ==

While the images you photograph are really good, you should categorize them better. Often times, you forget to put the proper category for their respective toyline, or you just put no categories at all. I fixed some, but I won't bother with the rest. So, in the future, when you upload more, please keep this in mind, thanks. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 22:46, 2 March 2019 (EST)

:Noted. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 23:18, 2 March 2019 (EST)

== Jetfire (G1)/toys - Generations Silver Jetfire ==

For the Lucky Draw Silver Jetfire, the description mentions "answers" without the actual question. Could you please elaborate on this? What was the original question, did you have to answer it to enter or to claim the prize if chosen, etc. --[[User:King Starscream|King Starscream]] ([[User talk:King Starscream|talk]]) 11:40, 10 July 2019 (EDT)
:Ah yes. I forgot. [[https://news.tfw2005.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2014/09/Transformers-Generations-Silver-Jetfire_1410768633.jpg The question is about which alt mode Jetfire turns into]]. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 11:49, 10 July 2019 (EDT)

== Generations stock images ==

This adds on to what I said earlier this year. You've been posting stock images just with the <nowiki>{{generationsstock}}</nowiki> template. For a while now, we have had specific stock image templates for sublines of ''Generations''. Check [[:Category:Stock_image_templates]] if you're uploading a ''Generations'' stock image, since it would likely have a specific template for it's subline. For all the ''Siege'' stock images you've uploaded, you would use <nowiki>{{WFCSstock}}</nowiki>. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 15:06, 19 July 2019 (EDT)
:Noted. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:55, 19 July 2019 (EDT)
::I fixed the rest of the Siege toy pics you uploaded to use the Siege template, rather than Generations. It's just easier if you use to the correct template when you upload it, rather than someone else fixing it after, so please please start using those templates. Though, I understand why not for Earthrise, since it doesn't have a template yet. [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 13:38, 5 October 2019 (EDT)
:::Understood. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 21:28, 5 October 2019 (EDT)
::::Thanks! [[User:Notirishman|--notirishman]] ([[User talk:Notirishman|talk]]) 00:16, 6 October 2019 (EDT)

== TFTM Screencaps ==

Thanks for replacing those movie screenshots! If you get the chance, could you also get the others listed in the [[:Category:Images_to_be_replaced|"To be replaced" category]]? My version is unfortunately widescreen, so I can't do it myself. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 00:55, 14 June 2020 (EDT)
:No prob. I'm working on it. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 01:04, 14 June 2020 (EDT)

== Alternate version of RID 2015 commercial ==
Hi, I see you added an entry to the commercial page for an alternate version of the One Step and Three Step Changers ad from RID 2015, that includes [[:File:Transformers-RID2015-spring-CM-ver-2-Optimus-Prime.jpg|this shot]] of a kid holding Optimus Prime. Would you happen to still have a link or the video itself saved? I've not been able to find it anywhere myself. --[[User:Tigerpaw28|Tigerpaw28]] ([[User talk:Tigerpaw28|talk]]) 23:01, 3 August 2020 (EDT)
:Sadly, even though I remembered that I saved this video a few years ago, I think it's forever lost. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 23:45, 6 August 2020 (EDT)

== That caption's a whopper. ==

Hi, trying not to step on anyone's toes. [https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Hot_Rod_(G1)/toys&diff=prev&oldid=1374508 In this edit,] did you intend to quote Hot Rod's line from [[TFTM]], or did you deliberately alter it? (i think the exact quote is, "Yep, it's a whopper, all right.")

Maybe a link to [[Burger King]] or [[Robert Stack|Robert]] [[Stackticon]]? ...No, didn't think so.

[[User:Rhymus|Rhymus]] ([[User talk:Rhymus|talk]]) 00:30, 22 December 2020 (EST)

:Yes, I altered it. [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 02:45, 22 December 2020 (EST)

== ''Siege'' Soundwave photos ==

Hey, just wanted to point out that the the waist should be rotated 180 degrees for the lamp post mode, so that the legs are backwards and the cockpit is facing forward. I actually kept the box flap to keep as a reference for myself when messing with the figure. Aside from that the photos look great! [[User:Fanofcoolstuff27|Fanofcoolstuff27]] ([[User talk:Fanofcoolstuff27|talk]]) 18:52, 4 January 2021 (EST)
:I see. And thanks! [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 22:14, 4 January 2021 (EST)

== Scourge image ==

Please upload that Scourge image as its own image. The file you replaced was used by one of the FunPub Facebook pages, and should remain how it looked in 2016 for accuracy. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:48, 24 September 2021 (EDT)
:Alright. (But I didn't know it was a similar one used by FunPub's FB page, since I made that restoration by myself before you acknowledged it) [[User:FigureGunplaFan|FigureGunplaFan]] ([[User talk:FigureGunplaFan|talk]]) 10:51, 24 September 2021 (EDT)

== Unrelated ==

Not related to tformers but idk if theres a spot for it, but have you finished Witch from Mercury, cause damn. Fellow gundam fan here, lol. [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:28, 5 September 2023 (EDT)

Talk:Airwave (facility)

2023-09-05T13:23:32Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Airwave Earthrise */ new section

I will pay 10 TFWiki Funbux if the persons responsible for the [[Greasepit (facility)|Gas station]] and [[Stratotronic Jet]] rewrite this entire article in-universe like it was some kind of half-assed airport with a SECRET. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 14:46, 2 April 2009 (EDT)
:The offer still stands. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 18:30, 16 June 2009 (EDT)
I want my funbux [[User:Grimlock140|Grimlock140]] 00:37, 18 September 2012 (EDT)

== Airwave Earthrise ==

Is there anything behind the Earthrise Airwave toy looking like the Metrotitan style titans? Like it looks like they're trying to convey it to be a titan but the size of a normal bot. [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 09:23, 5 September 2023 (EDT)

User talk:SkywarpsTwin

2023-08-31T16:29:01Z

SkywarpsTwin: Created page with "What is this for?"

What is this for?

Optimus Prime (Movie)

2023-08-31T16:28:05Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Transformers */

{{factions|autobotfilm|{{factions/icons|custom=Cyberglyphics Prime Symbol.png|cLink=Dynasty of Primes|cPretty=Prime}}|NEST|hofsilver}}
{{disambigm|Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Nemesis Prime (disambiguation)}}
{{suite}}
:''Optimus Prime is the [[Autobot]] leader from the [[Movie continuity family]].''
[[File:Movieprime meettheautobots.jpg|upright=1.67|thumb|Hello, pretty bird. GIVE ME YOUR FACE.]]
'''Optimus Prime''' is the leader of the [[Autobot]]s. Long ago, he was the humble leader of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]]'s science division, which studied the [[AllSpark]], and were protected by [[Lord High Protector]] [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]]'s military. When Megatron was corrupted by [[The Fallen]], Optimus discovered that he was the last of the [[Dynasty of Primes]], hidden away when The Fallen destroyed their lineage. In response to Megatron's attempts to seize the AllSpark and conquer other worlds, Optimus assumed his proper [[Prime (rank)|title]] and rallied the Autobots to stand against the [[Decepticon]]s.

As obsessively as Megatron strives to achieve his objective, Optimus is equally as dedicated to stopping him, even at the cost of his life, his world, and—if necessary—his own people. It was on his order that the AllSpark was jettisoned into space, dooming Cybertron to a slow death and his people to a nomadic life. The sacrifices he has made weigh heavily on his [[spark]], but they must be done, for there is no other choice. He knows the ambitions that lurk in Megatron's spark, and they must never see the light of day. Lives must be kept free from the threat of Megatron's tyranny, no matter the cost. This obsession with the defeat of Megatron has robbed Optimus of some of his early idealism. This has created a certain ruthlessness beneath his otherwise honest and caring personality. Prime is not one for second chances and is willing to consider any action that might lead to victory, short of directly sacrificing those he cares about.

{{bigquote|You just wanna die for the guy! That's leadership… or brainwashin', or somethin'.}}
{{bigquote|No… that's ''Optimus Prime.''|[[Crosshairs (AOE)|Crosshairs]] and [[Drift (AOE)|Drift]] on their leader|''[[Transformers: Age of Extinction (film)|Age of Extinction]]''}}

==Fiction==
===Movies===
{{note|The seven movies are the primary component of the live-action movie continuity family. Their events should be taken as canon for all other pieces of fiction listed below, unless otherwise specified.}}
====''Transformers'' film====
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Cullen]] (English), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japanese)|[[Wang Kai]] (Chinese), [[Andrei Yaroslavtsev]] (Russian), [[Guilherme Briggs]] (Portuguese), [[Jacques Frantz]] (European French), [[Guy Nadon]] (Canadian French), [[Reiner Schöne]] (German), [[Alessandro Rossi]] (Italian), [[Jung Goo Lee]] (Korean), [[Blas Garcia]] (Latin-American Spanish), [[Jordi Boixaderas]] (Spain-Spanish), [[Zdeněk Maryška]] (Czech), [[Shailendra Pandey]] (Hindi), [[Tibor Kristóf]] (Hungarian), [[Thongchai Chanchamni]] (Thai), [[Ayhan Kahya]] (Turkish, theatrical and home media), [[Payidar Tüfekçioğlu]] (Turkish, VOD)}}

[[File:TF2007 optimus meets sam.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.85|"I will peer into your spark..." Wait wait wrong line. <br> CUT, TAPE 4, ACTION... <br>
"I will peer into your aplahds" sorry sorry. <br> CUT, read the script, you're supposed to say "I am Optimus Prime" <br> "Okay okay I got it"...]]
Optimus Prime and his Autobots were forced to depart their homeworld of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] thousands of years ago, after the life-giving [[AllSpark]] was lost to the far reaches of space. In the year 2007, having received word from [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] that the AllSpark was on the planet [[Earth]], Optimus brought his troops to the small, blue world. After descending through Earth's atmosphere in his [[transition form]], Optimus [[Trans-scan|scanned]] a passing truck, then quickly learned the planet's languages via the [[internet]]. Meeting up with Bumblebee, Prime and his men were introduced to [[Sam Witwicky]] and [[Mikaela Banes]], with whom Prime shared their history and their reason for being on Earth.

[[File:TF2007 optimus truckmode.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5|Like a Boss.]]
Prime and the Autobots returned with Sam to his house, so that he could obtain for them [[Archibald Witwicky's glasses|a family heirloom]]: a pair of [[glasses]] belonging to his ancestor [[Archibald Witwicky]], which contained the location of the AllSpark encoded across its lenses. Prime had his troops wait outside while Sam and Mikaela searched for the glasses, but the Autobot leader's thunderous footsteps, clumsy attempts to hide, and general impatience made the whole experience quite a trial. Nevertheless, the Autobots managed to keep themselves hidden from Sam's parents long enough for Sam to find the glasses—at which point, the forces of [[Sector Seven]] arrived to take Sam and Mikaela into custody. Prime intercepted the S7 convoy, tearing the roof off the SUV containing the two kids and demanding that the organization's director [[Seymour Simmons]] release them. Sector Seven back-up soon arrived, however, forcing Prime to hide beneath a bridge, carrying Sam and Mikaela on his shoulders. When the humans slipped, Bumblebee was forced to break cover to rescue them, which resulted in all three of them being captured by S7. Now in possession of the glasses which could tell him the location of the AllSpark, Optimus remorsefully left Bumblebee in Sector Seven's hands despite protestations from [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] and [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]]; Prime was unwilling to employ the deadly force he knew would be required to save their teammate, as he knew humanity held the potential to be something great.

[[File:Movie2007 Prime sword.jpg|left|upright=1.85|thumb|Swiss army Prime.]]
Using the glasses to trace the AllSpark to the [[Hoover Dam]], Prime led his men there, but while they were en route, the [[Decepticon]]s who were also in hiding on the planet launched an attack on the facility. Sam, Mikaela, Bumblebee and the forces of Sector Seven met up with Prime and his team on the road, and they all headed for nearby [[Mission City]] to hide the AllSpark. On the way, Prime was attacked by [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]]; a brief but brutal struggle followed, concluding when Prime succeeded in decapitating the hate-filled Decepticon. Joining his men in the streets of Mission City, Prime was met in battle by his ancient enemy Megatron, who quickly proved to be superior both in physical strength and in terms of firepower. [[File:TF2007 optimus vs megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.85|"You, Kakarot. I choose you to be the first of my victims."]] Realizing that there was only one way to end the fighting, Optimus instructed Sam to push the AllSpark into his chest if all hope seemed lost, which would merge the cube with his own [[spark]], destroying both it and himself. As it turned out, Sam did just the opposite, instead thrusting it into ''Megatron's'' chest, killing the Decepticon leader and destroying the AllSpark. Prime regretted the necessity of the action, but knew there had been no other choice.

Though the Decepticons were defeated and their bodies dumped in the [[Laurentian Abyss]] by the military, the loss of the AllSpark meant the Autobots were unable to use its power to restore their homeworld. Electing to remain on Earth, Prime sent a message into deep space to any surviving Autobots in the galaxy to come to join them there. {{storylink|Transformers (film)|Transformers}}

{{note|Optimus Prime's involvement in the preceding events, or events mostly similar, were also chronicled in the novels "[[Transformers (novel)|Transformers]]," "[[Transformers: The Junior Novel]]" and "[[The Quest for the AllSpark]]";
the "[[Transformers: Movie Adaptation]]" and "[[Movie Trilogy]]" comics; the activity book "[[Look and Find Transformers]]"; and the storybooks "[[Optimus Prime Versus Megatron]]," "[[Sam's New Car]]," "[[Transformers (interactive Play-a-Sound Storybook)|Transformers Play-a-Sound]]," "[[Transformers Mix & Match]]," "[[Meet the Autobots]]," "[[Meet the Decepticons]]," and "[[Transformers: The Movie Storybook]]." In the comic book and novel adaptations of the film, Prime also kills [[Barricade (Movie)|Barricade]] after his altercation with Bonecrusher.}}
{{--}}

====''Revenge of the Fallen'' film====
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Cullen]] (English), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japanese)|[[Wang Kai]] (Chinese), [[Guilherme Briggs]] (Portuguese), [[Jacques Frantz]] (European French), [[Guy Nadon]] (Canadian French), [[Reiner Schöne]] (German), [[Alessandro Rossi]] (Italian), [[Jung Goo Lee]] (Korean), [[Andrei Yaroslavtsev]] (Russian), [[Blas Garcia]] (Latin-American Spanish), [[Jordi Boixaderas]] (Spain-Spanish), [[Zdeněk Maryška]] (Czech), [[Shailendra Pandey]] (Hindi), [[Imre Szélyes]] (Hungarian), [[Thongchai Chanchamni]] (Thai), [[Ayhan Kahya]] (Turkish, theatrical and home media), [[Volkan Ateş Akyılmaz]] (Turkish, VOD)}}

[[File:ROTF optimus takes aim.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|''My OptiPrime don't want none<br>Unless he's got GUNS<br>Hun'']]
In the two years which followed the events in Mission City, Optimus Prime and the Autobots—including a group of new arrivals who had responded to Prime's message—became part of a Transformer/human military group called [[NEST]]. Together, they hunted down the remaining Decepticons in hiding across Earth. After a destructive clash with [[Demolishor (ROTF)|Demolishor]] in [[Shanghai]] went awry, Optimus was air-dropped onto a highway and crippled the Decepticon. Demolishor taunted Optimus about the mysterious force known as "[[The Fallen]]", who would rise again. Prime ensured that Demolishor would not be around to see it, as he unceremoniously executed him.

[[File:ROTF Prime blades.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|Optimus' rampage through the Hundred Acre Wood left no survivors.]]
When the Decepticon [[Ravage (ROTF)|Ravage]] stole the remaining shard of the AllSpark from NEST's [[Diego Garcia]] base, Optimus Prime arranged a meeting with Sam Witwicky, who had since left home to go to college, hoping for the boy's help. Sam, unfortunately, was presently focused on having some semblance of a normal life, and was not receptive Optimus's pleas, but Optimus feared that the choice to be involved would soon be taken out of Sam's hands. This soon proved true when Megatron—resurrected by the AllSpark shard—abducted Sam to draw out the wisdom of the AllSpark that was hidden within the human's mind. Optimus and Bumblebee ambushed the Decepticons in the [[Broadwater Metal Works|abandoned industrial complex]] where Sam was being held and managed to whisk the boy away, but Megatron, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] and [[Grindor (ROTF)|Grindor]] gave chase, resulting in a ferocious three-on-one battle between Prime and the Decepticons in the depths of the nearby forest. Prime held his own, even managing to kill Grindor, but the underhanded Megatron was able to impale him on his pincer-blade and blast him open with point-blank shot. Although the rest of the Autobots soon arrived and drove off Megatron and Starscream, Optimus Prime was [[The many deaths of Optimus Prime|dead]].

[[File:ROTF optimus dead body.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|This is what happens when you get close to [[Stephanie Sheh|Nui Harime]].]]
Prime's body was brought back to Diego Garcia, but was soon covertly transported to [[Egypt]] by [[William Lennox]] and [[Robert Epps]] when they got word from Sam that he had discovered a possible means of restoring the Autobot leader to life: the [[Matrix of Leadership]]. In the midst of a battle between the Autobots and The Fallen's Decepticons in the Egyptian desert, Sam plunged the Matrix into Optimus's chest, and his gamble proved successful, as Optimus Prime lived again. To help Prime defeat The Fallen and destroy his [[Star Harvester|sun-harvesting weapon]] hidden within the [[Great Pyramid of Giza]], the turncoat Decepticon [[Jetfire (Movie)|Jetfire]] sacrificed his life, entreating Prime to use his parts to gain "a power he had never known". [[File:ROTF movie Powered-Up Optimus Prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|I'm bringing sexy back.]] [[Ratchet (Movie)|Ratchet]] and [[Jolt (ROTF)|Jolt]] transplanted Jetfire's remains onto Prime's body, upgrading him into a heavily armed, flight-capable powerhouse. Prime immediately took flight and disabled the harvester, after which he engaged The Fallen in battle. Megatron attempted to intervene, but Optimus overpowered his old enemy and used his own fusion cannon to shoot half his face off. Resuming his fight with The Fallen, Optimus tore the ancient Decepticon's face off, and when the villain attempted to flee, Prime punched through his abdomen and crushed his spark, finally killing him.

On the return voyage home, Optimus thanked Sam for saving his life, as the boy thanked the Autobot leader for believing in him. Following this, Optimus Prime sent another transmission into space, detailing recent events so that the pasts of both races would be remembered, and also declaring that Humanity and the Autobots would face the future together. {{storylink|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}

{{note|Optimus Prime's involvement in the preceding events, or events mostly similar, were also chronicled in the novels "[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (novel)|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen]]," "[[Revenge of the Fallen: The Junior Novel]]" and "[[The Last Prime]]"; the "[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Official Movie Adaptation]]" and "[[Movie Trilogy]]" comics; and the storybooks "[[I Am Optimus Prime (ROTF)|I Am Optimus Prime]]," "[[Operation Autobot]]," "[[Rise of the Decepticons]]," "[[When Robots Attack!]]," "[[Ratchet to the Rescue]]," "[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Electronic Voice Changer]]" and "[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Mix & Match]]." The publications targeted at younger readers tending to downplay Optimus's ferocity—in several, he defeats The Fallen not by killing him, but by [[:File:TheFallen-thrownintospace.jpg|hurling him into space]]. In the [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (novel)|novelization]] of the film, Prime is not killed by Megatron's attack, but rather sent into [[stasis lock]], and would have stayed that way for years if not for Sam's intervention.}}

====''Dark of the Moon'' film====
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Cullen]] (English), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japanese)|[[Wang Kai]] (Chinese), [[Reiner Schöne]] (German), [[Alessandro Rossi]] (Italian), [[Jacques Frantz]] (European French), [[Guy Nadon]] (Canadian French), [[Andrei Yaroslavtsev]] (Russian), [[Blas Garcia]] (Latin American-Spanish), [[Arturo Casanova]] (Latin American-Spanish, one line error), [[Jordi Boixaderas]] (Spain-Spanish), [[Zdeněk Maryška]] (Czech), [[Akshay Kumar]] (Hindi), [[Imre Szélyes]] (Hungarian), [[Guilherme Briggs]] (Portuguese), [[Srinivasa Moorthy]] (Telugu), [[Thongchai Chanchamni]] (Thai), [[Ayhan Kahya]] (Turkish, theatrical and home media), [[Volkan Ateş Akyılmaz]] (Turkish, VOD)}}
[[File:DOTM optimus armored weapons platform.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|Chevron seven locked.]]
Three years after the defeat of The Fallen, the Autobots and NEST took to dealing with human conflicts in the absence of the Decepticons. Optimus's vehicle mode was now complemented by a [[Armored Weapons Platform|large transformable trailer]], containing an armory of various weapons and flight equipment. While investigating a tip that a piece of Cybertronian technology could be found in the ruins of the [[Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant]], Optimus and his NEST allies were attacked by [[Shockwave (Movie)|Shockwave]] and his pet [[Driller]], who attempted to steal the component. Optimus drove off Shockwave and his monstrous "pet", but was perturbed to discover that the recovered Cybertronian tech was a piece of the ancient Autobot spacecraft known as the ''[[Ark (DOTM)|Ark]]''—flagship of his mentor and predecessor, [[Sentinel Prime (ROTF)|Sentinel Prime]], and believed destroyed during the war on Cybertron millennia beforehand.
[[File:DOTM optimus with trailer.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|"Callin' all trucks, this here's the duck. We're about to go a-huntin' bear."]]
Demanding an explanation from National Intelligence Director [[Charlotte Mearing]], Prime learned from both her and astronaut [[Buzz Aldrin]] that humanity had discovered the ruins of the ''Ark'' on Earth's [[Moon (moon)|moon]] in the 1960s. Travelling to the moon with Ratchet aboard the ''[[Xantium (DOTM)|Xantium]]'', Prime discovered the comatose form of Sentinel within the ''Ark''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s crash vault, along with a small fraction of the special cargo the ''Ark'' had been carrying—five [[pillar]]s capable of opening a [[space bridge]]. Optimus brought his old mentor back to Earth and used the Matrix of Leadership to reactivate him; showing him the peace and beauty of Earth, Optimus expressed his willingness to cede leadership back to Sentinel once more, but Sentinel refused.

[[File:DOTMSentinelOptimus.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|Sentinel, can you put that sword somewhere else so we can talk?]]
Unfortunately, it would soon transpire that Sentinel was in league with Megatron, when he murdered Ironhide and brought the pillars to [[Washington, D.C.]]. A shocked Optimus confronted his mentor at the National Mall reflecting pool, pleading with him to stop, but Sentinel was unmoved, and opened a space bridge through which at 200 Decepticon troops launched a vicious assault on the city. In the chaos that followed, Optimus tried to fight Sentinel; Sentinel defeated him, but spared his life in the belief he would come around to his side eventually. Naturally, Optimus refused, which led to Sentinel publicly denouncing him and his Autobots as rebels, falsely leading humanity to believe that their planet would be spared if they exiled Optimus's team into space aboard the ''Xantium''. Appearing to willingly comply, Optimus suspected Decepticon treachery—and he was right, as Starscream fired upon the ''Xantium'' soon after launch, destroying it. To all watching, it appeared Optimus and the Autobots had been destroyed, but in actuality, Prime had had his men hide within one of the ship's booster rockets, which had detached before the vessel's destruction.
[[File:DOTM optimus with flight tech.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|"That's my secret, Captain. I ''always'' want faces."]]
Optimus's team headed for [[Chicago]], which had been conquered by the Decepticons in their absence, and arrived just in time to rescue Sam, Epps and a team of former NEST soldiers from a Decepticon [[Orbital Assault Carrier|fighter ship]]. Venturing into the heart of the city, the Autobots were ambushed by Shockwave and the Driller, and Prime was separated from his trailer in the brawl. Leaving his Autobots to battle on without him, Prime quickly recovered the trailer and donned the flight tech within, which he used to slay the Driller. Unfortunately, he was then blasted by Shockwave and wound up tangled in the cables of a construction crane, temporarily taking him out of the fight.

By the time the [[Wreckers]] cut Optimus free, Sentinel had activated his space bridge and begun teleporting Cybertron itself into Earth's [[Solar System]]. Prime went on a rampage, scything through the Decepticons on the main battlefield on his way to a final confrontation with Shockwave; after killing the cyclopean Decepticon, he used Shockwave's own cannon to blast the space bridge's control pillar, stalling Cybertron's transportation. [[File:DOTM optimus executes sentinel.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|Hey, you guys remember when Optimus Prime used to crack jokes and play basketball? Good times.]] Optimus then demanded that Sentinel face him; his one-time mentor complied, and the pair engaged one another in a battle which Optimus initially dominated, but in which Sentinel eventually got the upper hand when he sliced off Prime's right arm. Before Sentinel could deliver a killing blow, however, Megatron himself intervened, attacking the elder Prime from behind and heavily damaging him. Megatron proposed a truce to Optimus, wishing only to be in charge of the Decepticons again; Optimus's response was to plunge his energon axe into Megatron's head and tear it from his shoulders, killing his eternal foe once more. The damaged and helpless Sentinel begged for mercy, claiming that all he ever wanted was their race's survival, but Optimus refused, claiming Sentinel didn't betray the Autobots, but rather ''himself.'' With bitter regret, Optimus executed his treacherous master with Megatron's shotgun. With Cybertron now apparently destroyed by the deactivation of the space bridge, Prime and the Autobots accepted Earth as their new home, and Optimus declared that the Autobots would never forsake the defense of the planet or its people. {{storylink|Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Dark of the Moon}}

{{note|Optimus Prime's involvement in the preceding events, or events mostly similar, were also chronicled in the novels "[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (novel)|Transformers: Dark of the Moon]]" and "[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon: The Junior Novel]]"; the "[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon Movie Adaptation]]" and "[[Movie Trilogy]]" comics; and the storybooks "[[Autobots Versus Decepticons]]," "[[The Lost Autobot]]," "[[Optimus Prime's Friends and Foes]]," "[[Bumblebee's Best Friend]]," "[[Dark of the Moon: Action Pop-ups!]]" and "[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon Mix & Match]]." Numerous adaptations targeted at younger readers scaled back the film's violence. In the [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon Movie Adaptation|comic book]] and [[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (novel)|novel]] adaptations of the film, Optimus accepts Megatron's truce and allows him to leave, and he kills Sentinel not with Megatron's gun, but with Sentinel's own [[Cosmic Rust (disease)|Cosmic Rust]] cannon.}}
{{--}}

====''Age of Extinction'' film====
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Cullen]] (English), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japanese)|[[Wang Kai]] (Chinese), [[Andrei Yaroslavtsev]] (Russian), [[Reiner Schöne]] (German), [[Alessandro Rossi]] (Italian), [[Jacques Frantz]] (European French), [[Guy Nadon]] (Canadian French), [[Alfonso Ramírez]] (Latin American Spanish), [[Jordi Boixaderas]] (Spain - Spanish), [[Zdeněk Maryška]] (Czech), [[Shailendra Pandey]] (Hindi), [[Imre Szélyes]] (Hungarian), [[Sławomir Pacek]] (Polish), [[Guilherme Briggs]] (Portuguese), [[Arun Alexander]] (Tamil), [[Srinivasa Moorthy]] (Telugu), [[Thongchai Chanchamni]] (Thai), [[Ayhan Kahya]] (Turkish)}}
[[File:AoE-junkeroptimus.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|Optimus' years of hard drinking and wild partying had finally caught up with him.]]
Following the battle in Chicago and the dissolution of NEST, the US government continued granting Optimus and the other Autobots asylum on Earth, in spite of the negative reputation the Autobots had gained. The White House believed that [[Harold Attinger]] was working alongside Optimus Prime to hunt down the last of the Decepticon fugitives; what the President didn't know was that Attinger's [[Cemetery Wind]] taskforce had began hunting down Autobots and terminating them. Learning of the betrayal, Optimus broadcast an urgent message to the Autobots on Earth, ordering his troops to cut off all contact with humans and go into hiding. Optimus successfully evaded Cemetery Wind for several years, but was eventually pinned down in [[Mexico]], caught in an ambush set by Attinger's lieutenant [[James Savoy]] and their Cybertronian ally, the bounty hunter [[Lockdown (ROTF)|Lockdown]]. Though badly wounded, Prime threw off his pursuers by scanning a dilapidated cab-over truck, and fled north to Paris, [[Texas]], where he hid in an abandoned movie theater and succumbed to stasis lock induced by his grevious injuries.

[[File:AOE-injuredoptimus.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|Cade Yeager was able to rebuild Optimus in a BARN! [[Iron Man|With a BOX OF SCRAPS!]]]]
Prime remained inert until aspiring roboticist [[Cade Yeager]] visited the theater for salvage. Hoping to strip the seemingly ordinary truck and sell the parts, he purchased Optimus and towed him home to his workshop, whereupon his examination of the truck's unusual inner workings led him to realize he had discovered a Transformer. Though Cade's daughter [[Tessa Yeager|Tessa]] and partner [[Lucas Flannery|Lucas]] wanted to turn Optimus in for a cash reward, Cade argued against it, wanting to increase his technical expertise by studying Optimus's systems further. To prove that the Transformer was "dead" and unable to retaliate, Cade opened the truck up and discovered a live missile from the truck's inner workings. When the missile was removed, Optimus suddenly awoke and transformed into robot mode. Confused and disoriented, Optimus threatened the humans, but Cade was able to calm him down, and offered to help repair him as best he could. Before he could get very far, Savoy's forces stormed the farm, forcing Optimus to hide underneath the barn, but when Savoy threatened Tessa's life, Optimus burst from concealment to aid his new human friends. A running battle with Lockdown ensued, culminating in an abandoned factory, where Prime regrouped with the Yaegers and Tessa's boyfriend [[Shane Dyson]] and escaped.

[[File:AOE optimus new altmode.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|Cemetery Wind would never think to go after a red and blue truck covered in flames!]]
After confirming that they had shaken their pursuers, Optimus summoned the surviving Autobots to a rendezvous point in the desert, scanning a passing truck on the way to adopt a new alternate mode and repair his injuries. Reuniting with Bumblebee, [[Drift (AOE)|Drift]], [[Crosshairs (AOE)|Crosshairs]], and [[Hound (Movie)|Hound]], an angry and embittered Prime announced his intent to break his long-held vow and kill the humans responsible for the Autobots' suffering. With Cade's help, the Autobots learned that the bodies of their fallen comrades were being taken to [[Kinetic Solutions Incorporated]] in [[Chicago]], where they were being melted down for [[Living metal|raw material]] to produce KSI's own Transformers. Enraged to learn that Ratchet had recently suffered this gruesome fate, Optimus led the Autobots in a furious attack on KSI, but stopped short of killing company head [[Joshua Joyce]] when the human shamed him by declaring the mankind had advanced past the Transformers. [[File:AOE optimus reformatted.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.6|I need a face. '''AND I'M LOOKIN' AT YOURS!''']] The Autobots pulled out, but Attinger ordered KSI creations "Galvatron" and [[Stinger (AOE)|Stinger]] to be sent after them; Optimus faced off against Galvatron, but before the battle could conclude, Lockdown shot down Optimus and dragged him away.

Imprisoned aboard Lockdown's ship, Optimus learned that the bounty hunter had been hired by the Transformers' mysterious [[Creator]]s to round up their renegade creations, starting with the ancient "knights" to whom the ship had once belonged, a group that Optimus himself had apparently once been part of. Optimus was soon rescued by his fellow Autobots, and they escaped by detaching the section of the ship they were in from the main body without Lockdown's notice. After the team regrouped, [[Brains]] revealed that Galvatron was, in fact, a rebuilt Megatron, and was planning to detonate a cyberforming [[seed]]—given to Attinger by Lockdown—in [[Hong Kong]]. Though Prime lacked a strong reason to defend humankind after his recent experiences, Cade petitioned him to have faith, in if not humanity itself, then in their potential to be better.

[[File:AOEOptimusRidingGrimlock.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|I have a giant robot dinosaur. Your argument is invalid.]]
Arriving in Hong Kong, the Autobots' stolen ship was shot down by Galvatron's forces and crashed in the Wulong Valley. In need of reinforcements, Optimus took a shield and sword from the ship's armory and freed the other captive knights aboard the ship, the [[Dinobot (AOE)|Dinobots]], and proposed that they let him lead them into battle. Their leader [[Grimlock (AOE)|Grimlock]] was not receptive to this idea, and challenged Optimus, but the Autobot leader triumphed over him, and offered Grimlock freedom under his leadership, or death under his foot. Grimlock conceded defeat, and allowed Optimus to ride him into battle in his massive ''Tyrannosaurus rex'' mode. The Autobot-Dinobot alliance decimated Galvatron's army, forcing the Decepticon to retreat, but just when it seemed the day was won, Lockdown returned. Optimus disabled Lockdown's ship's tractor beam in order to allow his comrades to pull back while he faced the bounty hunter alone; during the course of their one-on-one fight, Optimus was forced to briefly break away to save Cade's life by shooting Attinger. [[File:OptimusPrimeleavesAOE.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8| ''So if you care to find me'' <br> ''Look to the western sky!'' <br> ''As someone told me lately'' <br> ''Everyone deserves a chance to fly!'']] Unfortunately, this distraction allowed Lockdown to impale Optimus on his own sword, immobilizing him, but Bumblebee and Cade intervened to hold off Lockdown while Shane and Tessa freed Optimus, enabling him to finally kill Lockdown. Optimus set off one of Lockdown's grenades to finish off Galvatron's remaining drones, and flew the humans to safety as it detonated.

After releasing the Dinobots from his command, Optimus prepared to depart into space, to both remove the seed from Earth, and to investigate the mystery of his creators, who still had a price on his head. His innate faith in humanity reignited by Cade and his family and friends, Optimus entreated the humans to think of one of the stars as his soul, and instructed the Autobots to guard the Yaegers, their allies, and all the humans they could.

As he left the planet, Optimus sent a message to the creators: leave Earth alone, because he was coming for them... {{storylink|Transformers: Age of Extinction (film)|Age of Extinction}}
{{--}}

====''The Last Knight'' film====
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Cullen]] (English), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japanese)|[[Wang Kai]] (Chinese), [[Andrei Yaroslavtsev]] (Russian), [[Reiner Schöne]] (German), [[Alessandro Rossi]] (Italian), [[Jacques Frantz]] (European French), [[Guy Nadon]] (Canadian French), [[Blas Garcia]] (Latin American Spanish), [[Jordi Boixaderas]] (Spain - Spanish), [[Zdeněk Maryška]] (Czech), [[Shailendra Pandey]] (Hindi), [[Imre Szélyes]] (Hungarian), [[Sławomir Pacek]] (Polish), [[Guilherme Briggs]] (Portuguese), [[Thongchai Chanchamni]] (Thai), [[Ayhan Kahya]] (Turkish)}}

[[File:TLK-history-Optimus-Prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|If Prime was a redcoat in 1815, he probably didn't like Americans very much...]]
In 1815, Optimus Prime participated in the {{w|Battle of Waterloo}} during the {{w|Napoleonic Wars}}. His early presence on Earth was covered up by the [[Order of the Witwiccans]].

After the battle of Hong Kong, Optimus exhausted his Energon in the vicinity of [[Jupiter]] and fell into [[stasis lock]], drifting through space. When [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] entered the Sol system, its gravitational pull affected Optimus and caused him to crash land on his homeworld, its atmosphere reviving him. Optimus awoke and despaired at the state of Cybertron. It was at this point that [[Quintessa (TLK)|Quintessa]] made herself known to Optimus, claiming to be his creator. Optimus cared very little for that and demanded to know what she'd done to Cybertron, trying to attack her when she refused to answer him, only to be overwhelmed by her powers and her [[Infernocon]]s. Quintessa accused Optimus of destroying Cybertron, but Optimus protested that Megatron had started the Great War. Quintessa however, retorted Optimus was responsible for Cybertron's state as he had been the one to launch the [[AllSpark]].

[[File:TLK Optimus chained.jpg|thumb|left|300px|Such folly and futility in the grand design.]]
With the Prime in chains, Quintessa explained her plan to him and why she needed him. She revealed to him that the Earth had formed around the body of [[Unicron]] and that she wanted Optimus to retrieve [[Staff of Merlin|her staff]] from the [[Guardian Knight|Knights of Iacon]] on Earth. With the staff, Quintessa would drain the life out of Unicron and use his energy to revive Cybertron. Brainwashing Optimus into "'''Nemesis Prime'''", she sent him back to Earth to complete the task.

[[File:TLK Optimus confronts Viviane.jpg|thumb|300px|Happy birthday, Kryptonian. I give you oblivion.]]
Nemesis Prime arrived back on Earth in the Knights' ship and slew two of their number before demanding that [[Viviane Wembly]] hand over the staff. His former ally Cade Yeager tried to reason with Optimus but Nemesis Prime reasserted his identity and claimed to fight only for Cybertron and its people. Once Viviane had handed over the staff, [[Santos]] (futilely) opened fire on Nemesis, who swatted the [[Transformers Reaction Force|TRF]] aside with his [[Quad Barrel Shotgun|shotgun]] and exited the ship. On the surface, Nemesis was assaulted by Bumblebee, whom the Prime easily bested in combat before the sound of Bumblebee's true voice allowed Optimus Prime to return.

[[File:TLKOptimusVsBumblebee.jpg|thumb|left|300px|It was at this point that Optimus' obsession with faces went too far.]]
The moment was short lived, as [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] flew in to steal the staff and the Knights arrived to slay Optimus for serving "Quintessa the Deceiver". While Optimus offered no resistance, viewing his execution as proper atonement, Cade managed to activate the [[Talisman (TLK)|Talisman]] and call off the Knights. Optimus then allied with the Knights and they flew off in the [[Knight Ship]] to confront Megatron and Quintessa on Cybertron. Arriving on [[Dragonstorm]], Optimus finally destroyed Infernocus by [[decapitation|decapitating]] all six Infernocons in a single mighty swing of his sword, reminding them that he is Optimus Prime. [[File:TLK Optimus decapitates Infernocons.jpg|thumb|300px|"Yeeart!"]]

In the [[ignition chamber]], Optimus engaged his old foe once again who tried to reignite their old friendship and offered Optimus the chance to stand beside them as they restored Cybertron. Optimus rebuked him, and was forced on the defensive before his fellow Autobots intervened and the Prime kicked Megatron out the side of the chamber.. Optimus then distracted Quintessa so Bumblebee could slay her when her defences were down as Vivian removed the staff, stopping Cybertron's destruction of Earth but leaving the two planets connected to one another. Optimus saved Cade and Vivian from falling to their death and, to the relief of their human allies, emerged from the destruction of the ignition chamber in his alternate mode with the two humans in his cab.

Despite the destruction of Earth being stopped, enough of Unicron's life force had been transmitted to Cybertron that it could again support its people. Optimus reflected that both humans and Cybertronians would have to work together to rebuild both their worlds before he sent out a call for all Autobots across the galaxy to return to Cybertron so they could begin rebuilding.
{{storylink|Transformers: The Last Knight (film)|The Last Knight}}
{{--}}

====''Bumblebee'' film====
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Cullen]] (English), [[Jon Bailey]] (English international trailers), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japanese)|[[Wang Kai]] (Chinese), [[Jacques Frantz]] (European French), [[Guy Nadon]] (Canadian French), [[Alessandro Rossi]] (Italian), [[Jordi Boixaderas]] (Spain-Spanish), [[Blas Garcia]] (Latin-American Spanish), [[Reiner Schöne]] (German), [[Zdeněk Maryška]] (Czech), [[Shailendra Pandey]] (Hindi), [[Imre Szélyes]] (Hungarian), [[Sławomir Pacek]] (Polish), [[Guilherme Briggs]] (Portuguese), [[Andrei Yaroslavtsev]] (Russian), [[Thongchai Chanchamni]] (Thai), [[Ahyan Kahya]] (Turkish)}}
{{note|''Bumblebee'' takes place before the other films (supposedly), but was released later. As such, it is placed here after ''The Last Knight''.}}
[[File:BBfilm-Optimus-Bumblebee-Earth.jpg|left|thumb|300px|"Wanna take our war here? Seems like it'd be fun."]]
Leader of the Autobot rebels during the war for [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], Optimus Prime took part in the final battle for Cybertron against the Decepticons. Though he dispatched numerous [[Seeker (Movie)|Seeker]]s in the fight, he soon concluded that the Autobots were on the brink of being overrun by the Decepticon advance. As the Autobot rearguard battled [[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]], [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]], and [[Shockwave (Movie)|Shockwave]], Optimus explained to his troops that they would need to abandon Cybertron and regroup elsewhere in the galaxy, and as they headed to a nearby launchpad. Prime explained to his scout, [[Bumblebee (Movie)|B-127]], that he had selected [[Earth]] as the site of a new Autobot base, instructing him to reconnoiter the planet while he and the other refugees gathered Autobots throughout the galaxy to rendezvous at Earth.

As the other Autobots evacuated via escape pods, Optimus Prime stayed behind to delay any pursuit, leaping from the launchpad just as the Decepticons brought it down and fighting on alone. Soundwave confronted him, forcing Optimus to struggle briefly against Ravage. Though Optimus fought Ravage off, the distraction cost him his gun and allowed the Decepticons to surround him. Together, they advanced on the outnumbered and defenseless Autobot leader.

[[File:TF-BB-Optimus-Prime-and-Bumblebee-Earth-modes.jpg|thumb|300px|"Good work Bumblebee, I'm sure this mission won't result in a continuity nightmare."]]
Prime was somehow able to escape the Decepticons and leave Cybertron; at some point afterward, the Decepticons [[Shatter]] and [[Dropkick (Movie)|Dropkick]] fruitlessly attempted to interrogate [[Cliffjumper (Movie)|Cliffjumper]] about Prime's whereabouts. A memory-hazy B-127, while being repaired by [[Charlie Watson]] in a forest, unintentionally played a glitched hologram message from Optimus Prime, triggering a memory in the yellow soldier. Later the message played clearly, once again unintentionally by B-127 when he was beaten by Dropkick at [[Sector Seven]]. The message revealed to Shatter and Dropkick that Optimus and the Autobots were coming to join B-127 on Earth, prompting them to attempt to summon the larger Decepticon armada to Earth and destroy the planet before Optimus could arrive.

Prime arrived on Earth and adopted a cab-over truck mode as a terrestrial disguise, then met up with B-127—now calling himself "Bumblebee"—on the [[Golden Gate Bridge]] after Bumblebee and [[Charlie Watson]] parted ways. That night, Prime and Bumblebee took refuge in a nearby forest, with Optimus thanking the scout for his efforts and commending his bravery as they watched more Autobot escape crafts descend to Earth. {{storylink|Bumblebee (film)|Bumblebee}}
{{note|Optimus Prime's involvement in the preceding events, or events mostly similar, were also chronicled in the novel "[[Transformers: Bumblebee: The Junior Novel]]".}}

====''Rise of the Beasts'' film====
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Cullen]] (English), [[Tesshō Genda]] (Japanese)|[[Patrick Messe]] (European French), [[Guy Nadon]] (Canadian French), [[Reiner Schöne]] (German, Main Voice), [[Klaus-Dieter Klebsch]] (German, Second Trailer), [[László Horányi]] (Hungarian), [[Blas Garcia]] (Latin American Spanish), [[Víctor Hugo Aguilar]] (Latin American Spanish, Second Trailer), [[Guilherme Briggs]] (Brazilian Portuguese)}}

[[File:TF-ROTB-Optimus-Sees-Transwarp-Signal.jpg|thumb|left|300px|"Is this for that ''{{w|Stargate (film)|Stargate}}'' movie I heard Bumblebee was excited to see?"]]
Seven years after his arrival on Earth, Optimus Prime, stranded on Earth after his arrival, updated his alternate mode to have a bulbar and sun visors. He became mentally worn down from being unable to leave and laid low in New York for the time being, up until the [[Transwarp Key]] activated, sending a transmission into the sky. Optimus Prime immediately signaled for Bumblebee, [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], and [[Mirage (Movie)|Mirage]] to rendezvous at a warehouse to make plans to retrieve the key and finally return home to Cybertron. Arriving last at the location, he noticed that Mirage had brought a human, revealed by Arcee to be [[Noah Díaz]], to their location. Optimus initially dismissed Noah and talked with the other Autobots to come up with a plan in order to retrieve the Transwarp Key. Mirage offered the idea of Noah to retrieve the key for them, as he was the ideal size in order for them to be able to sneak around into the location. Initially against the idea, Optimus eventually agreed to the plan.

[[File:TF-ROTB-Optimus-Prime-Confronts-Noah.jpg|thumb|300px|"Are you John Laurens in the place to be, two pints of Sam Adams, but working on three?"]]
Optimus waited on standby alongside Bumblebee and Arcee, the Autobot Leader still untrusting of Noah's capability to assist them. Bumblebee tried to say that the human race was not that bad, and while Optimus acknowledged that Bumblebee was treated kindly by [[Charlie Watson|another human]], he stood firm with his belief, and grew annoyed while waiting. The wait was shortened, however, as the [[Terrorcon (ROTB)|Terrorcons]] arrived on the scene, and Optimus headed into the battlefield with the other Autobots by his side. Optimus was overpowered by the Terrorcon leader, [[Scourge (ROTB)|Scourge]], and pinned to the floor via [[Battletrap (ROTB)|Battletrap]]. Before Scourge could deal the finishing blow to Optimus, Scourge redirected his attack towards Bumblebee, and Optimus had to watch his old friend be blasted by the Terrorcon leader, and was forced to retreat with Noah and another human, [[Elena Wallace]], after being rescued by the [[Maximal]] [[Airazor (ROTB)|Airazor]].

Wounded emotionally by the loss of Bumblebee, Optimus tried to pin the blame of the situation onto Noah, with the human placing the blame back on Optimus. Initially believing for all hope to be lost with Scourge holding the Transwarp Key and being able to summon [[Unicron]], Airazor clarified that Scourge had only half of the Transwarp Key, with Elena stating that the remaining half is in Peru. Optimus then changed their objective to getting both halves of the Transwarp Key and to kill Scourge. Realizing that the entire Autobot Team and the humans would need a means to travel to Peru, Optimus enlisted the help of [[Stratosphere]] to fly the team, remaining mostly silent in the flight to Peru, while hoping that Bumblebee could be revived with an Energon transfusion.

Upon arrival in Peru, Optimus and his team were guided by [[Wheeljack (ROTB)|Wheeljack]] to the city of [[Cusco]] in order to reach the location of the remaining half of the Transwarp Key, though they would not be able to traverse due to there being a festival held in the city at the time. Optimus reluctantly accepted the assistance of Noah and Elena to reach the temple while he and the other Autobots laid low in vehicle mode throughout the city for reinforcement. Upon the transmission received by Noah, Optimus and the other Autobots moved out towards their location to the jungle, with Scourge and the other Terrorcons following suit. Optimus transformed once out the city, telling Mirage he would get the half of the key from Scourge, as well as remove his head. Optimus shot at the Terrorcon leader, but Scourge tackled Optimus down the cliffside. Their fight was cut short by Airazor, Optimus then moved ahead towards the other Autobots and humans. Optimus then jumped into a standoff between the Autobots and humans against the other Maximals in the area. Airazor broke the tension between him and [[Optimus Primal (ROTB)|Optimus Primal]], the latter revealing to Optimus he was his namesake.

Resting in a nearby village that was aware of the existence of the Maximals, Optimus looked over the lifeless body of Bumblebee once more, with Primal stating that there was raw Energon in the area, but it was inert and would not be able to restore Bumblebee in the state it was in. Optimus then discussed the matter of the humans with Optimus Primal, the Maximal leader stating that all life mattered to them, while also finding that the humans are able to be trusted.

The day after this conversation, however, Airazor, corrupted by an attack from Scourge, stole both the Transwarp Key and Elena, and while ready to shoot down the infected Maximal, Primal stopped him from doing so. Optimus arrived to the location of both Elena and Noah, and noticed the latter was ready to destroy the half of the Transwarp Key with his blaster, but Optimus pleaded with Noah to not destroy it, the Key being his only way to get himself and the Autobots home. The Transwarp Key however was stolen once more and placed into the hand of Scourge, Optimus coming in shortly after Primal was forced to kill Airazor.

Left with little options, but also weighing Primal's belief in the humans alongside the efforts of Elena and Noah willing to not destroy the Key, Optimus made a plan to directly go after Scourge with the Maximals and Autobots, deciding to fight for Earth, and if necessary, die fighting to protect the planet no matter the cost. He joined in the plan to get the attention of the Terrorcons and Scourge while Elena and Noah sneaked up to the control panel of the Transwarp Drive and Elena could use the shutdown code in order to prevent Unicron's arrival. Optimus then partook in the final battle, taking on the Terrorcon [[Sweep (ROTB)|Sweep]]s as well as Battletrap, both him and Primal working together to dismantle the Terrorcon, with Optimus expressing annoyance with Primal doing the finishing blow.

Optimus soon made his way to the bridge in order to take on Scourge and assisted in the effort to stop the arrival of Unicron and protect Noah, but Optimus was soon be overwhelmed by the Terrorcon leader once more as well as an army of Sweeps. Optimus was saved however, by Bumblebee, who was revived via the Energon pulse given off by the Energon being ignited through the Transwarp Tower's activation. Upon being freed, Optimus gained the upper hand against Scourge. Though Scourge ended up destroying the control panel to the Transwarp Drive, Optimus emerged victorious in their final fight, removing Scourge's head from his body, and took back the Autobot insignia Scourge had taken from Bumblebee in their first encounter.

Left with no options to stop Unicron, Optimus was forced to take another action and planned to destroy the Transwarp Key. Optimus ordered the other Autobots to leave immediately, giving Bumblebee his insignia back, before readying himself. Unicron tried to bargain with the Autobot leader in order to preserve the Key, but Optimus refused to listen, destroying the Key and causing the platform to explode. Optimus tried to save himself from the transwarp vortex sucking him into the closing portal, only to be helped by Noah grabbing his axe. The human refused to let Optimus die, and then they were rescued by Optimus Primal, the Maximal Leader throwing him towards a road for him to drive both himself and Noah to safety, the latter giving him a boost while in vehicle mode.

Optimus then returned to America in Stratosphere with the other Autobots and the humans, having found the ability to trust in them should they face any future threats.
{{storylink|Transformers: Rise of the Beasts (film)|Rise of the Beasts}}
{{note|Optimus Prime's involvement in the preceding events, or events mostly similar, were also chronicled in the books "[[Mission at the Museum]]" and "[[The Search Is On]]".}}
{{--}}

===Novels===
====''Ghosts of Yesterday''====
Before coming to Earth, Optimus Prime led the search for the AllSpark in the transport vessel, the ''[[Ark (Movie)|Ark]]''. In 1969, Earth-time, in an abandoned solar system, Prime and the crew discovered [[Ghost 1|a vessel]] of strangely Cybertronian design, which they pursued to a nearby planet. Prime dispatched Bumblebee to the surface to investigate the ship while he and the other Autobots battled Decepticons from the ''[[Nemesis (Movie)|Nemesis]]''; Prime personally took on and defeated [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]], and [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]]. Contact having been lost with Bumblebee during the fight, Prime headed down to the planet to join him, where a joint attack by Starscream and the alien ship sent the two Autobots tumbling into a subterranean cavern network.

Fleeing an attack by [[Worm-thing|indigenous worm-creatures]], Optimus Prime and Bumblebee came across the alien vessel, which Prime deduced was trying to surrender. Lines of communication were opened, and Prime realized that Starscream had duped the little aliens into attacking him. However, the creatures, who called themselves "[[human]]s", explained that they held Megatron, whom they called the Ice Man, on their home world, [[Earth]]. Realizing the destruction Megatron would wreak upon the defenseless humans if he escaped, Prime vowed to see them return to their world to warn it.

Prime blasted a way out of the caverns, but on the way back to the ''Ark'', the Decepticons attacked again, and Prime found himself in the difficult position of fighting Starscream and protecting the human ship. Speared by Bonecrusher's tail, Optimus seemed doomed to perish at Starscream's hand until the humans interceded, opening fire on Starscream. The Decepticon destroyed the humans and their ship in retaliation, but Optimus Prime, inspired by their courage and sacrifice, resolved to locate Earth—and the AllSpark which he speculated had come to rest there—before the Decepticons did... and hopefully before Megatron came back online. {{storylink|Transformers: Ghosts of Yesterday|Ghosts of Yesterday}}

====''The Veiled Threat''====
{{bigquote|I know Megatron. I know all of you. You would not have taken the AllSpark and left this world in peace. You would have subdued it and made slaves of its people. Even in the absence of the AllSpark, my conscience and that of my friends could not have allowed that.|Optimus Prime to [[Macerator (ROTF)|Macerator]]}}
Following the battle for the AllSpark in Mission City and the formation of NEST, Optimus and Lennox led a team of Autobots to investigate a Decepticon sighting in [[Zambia]]. They found a trap waiting for them, which resulted in Optimus being dragged over [[Victoria Falls]] by the Decepticon [[Macerator (ROTF)|Macerator]]; Prime saved himself by grabbing an outcropping and was hauled to safety by rookie Autobot [[Beachbreak]]'s tow line, but Starscream then killed Beachbreak in retaliation. Prime took the Autobot's death personally, regarding it as a failure of his leadership. The team proceeded to hunt down their Decepticons prey, and after a lengthy fight at the [[Kariba dam]], Optimus decapitated Macerator. The other Decepticons escaped however, and Optimus prevented Ironhide from firing after [[Dropkick (Movie)|Dropkick]] for fear of harming nearby humans.

Another mission to [[Australia]] saw Optimus and his team spend days searching the outback for Decepticons, during which they discussed the possibility that the Decepticons might be hunting for energy to resurrect Megatron. Optimus doubted there was an energy source on the planet that could do so. They eventually encountered [[Kickback (ROTF)|Kickback]], [[Trample]] and [[Tread]], three [[Constructicon (ROTF)|Constructicon]]s mining for minerals. Optimus found Kickback's sonic charge weapon to be a challenge, but with some help from Lennox, killed the Decepticon.

The narrow streets of [[Rome]] proved a challenge for Optimus's truck mode to navigate when NEST travelled there to hunt down [[Jolt (Movie)|Deadend]] and [[Swindle (Movie)|Swindle]]. After [[Knock Out (ROTF)|Knockout]] dealt to the two Decepticons, a furious Starscream challenged Optimus to one-on-one combat in the nearby [[Colosseum]]. Naturally it was a trap — Starscream had allied himself with a human, [[Bruno Carrera]], and together they trapped Optimus in a pit and set Barricade on him. With the help of four humans, Optimus broke free, threw Barricade into the pit and sealed him there. He then had only to show his face outside to where Starscream was fighting Ironhide, Ratchet and [[Salvage (Movie)|Salvage]], and the would-be Decepticon leader fled. {{storylink|Transformers: The Veiled Threat|The Veiled Threat}}

====''Classified''====
[[File:Tfc-battlemountain.jpg|thumb|upright=1]]
After the massive battle in Egypt and the defeat of The Fallen, NEST continued to hunt Decepticons around the Earth. When a trio of Decepticons
attacked the [[United States Air Force]] [[Nevada Test and Training Range]], Optimus Prime and Ironhide responded; Optimus attempted to talk [[Dropshot (Classified)|Dropshot]] into abandoning the Decepticon cause, but was forced to kill him when he attempted to kill some human soldiers. Likewise, when [[Bombshock (PCC)|Bombshock]] threatened to blow up some humans, Optimus and Ironhide took him down with a pincer movement they had practised during the war back on Cybertron, in the [[Battle of Polyhex]]. Returning to base, Optimus took part in a meeting of some generals, though he had to talk his way into doing so, as they were initially reluctant to include the aliens. Optimus disagreed that the Decepticons' target was [[Area 51]] and correctly deduced it to be [[Hawthorne Army Depot]]. When he arrived there with Ironhide, Bumblebee and Ratchet were already engaged in a battle with [[Reverb (ROTF)|Reverb]], however the Decepticon's personal [[force field]] made him impossible to hit and he did substantial damage to Prime. Once the shield was eliminated, Optimus defeated Reverb. Though Reverb asked Optimus to finish him off, Optimus instead took him prisoner. He also talked [[Marcus|General Marcus]] into allowing [[Kevin Bowman]] to join NEST. {{storylink|Transformers Classified: Switching Gears|Switching Gears}}

After supervising a test of a prototype [[Hyperdynamix]] tank, Optimus returned to the [[NEST Rapid Response Base]] for a briefing on a new Cybertronian storehouse detected at [[Battle Mountain]]. Before they had a chance to investigate, Optimus was forced to go defend Hyperdynamix against Decepticon attackers and was kept busy there trying to find the three aggressors. {{storylink|Transformers Classified: Battle Mountain|Battle Mountain}}

During a visit to Hyperdynamix Aerospace to learn about the [[Hyperdynamix Orbital Debris Disposal Initiative Station|HODDIS]] station intended to track incoming Cybertronians, and the satellite with which [[Alexander Porter|Dr. Porter]] intended to wipe out the Decepticons, incoming meteoroids were detected. Optimus and his team went to the crash site in [[Idaho]], and found themselves having to fight the giant [[robo-pede|robot centipedes]] which came out of the meteoroids. Despite suffering major damage, Optimus was able to dispatch two of them on his own. {{storylink|Transformers Classified: Satellite of Doom|Satellite of Doom}}
{{-}}

===IDW movie comics===
[[File:Foundation1 optimus and sentinel.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.5|'''Optimus:''' Hey Sentinel! Wouldn't it be funny if you died on a ship, came back to life using the Matrix, betrayed your own kin, aided Megatron and killed my right-hand man? '''Sentinel:''' Heh, heh, heh. That'll never happen!]]
Optimus Prime was the last surviving descendant of the [[Dynasty of Primes]], orphaned and hidden away to protect him from the evil of The Fallen. {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen issue 3|Revenge of the Fallen #3}} Optimus grew up with no knowledge of who he was, and was eventually found by Sentinel Prime, who claimed to be descended from [[Primus]] himself. Joining Sentinel's tribe of "Autobots", Optimus worked with his teacher and other pupils Megatron and [[Elita-One (Movie)|Elita-One]] to restore order to an energy-starved Cybertron by helping to locate the lost AllSpark, buried far beneath Cybertron's surface. Re-energized by a star harnessed by the science of [[Wheeljack (Movie)|Wheeljack]], the AllSpark restored life and energy to Cybertron, unifying the planet once more, but the old and weary Sentinel Prime had no desire to lead this new, united populace. At last, he revealed to Optimus the secret of his heritage, and that he, as "Optimus Prime", ought to succeed him as leader. {{storylink|Foundation issue 1|Foundation #1}} Unable to believe that he was a [[Prime (rank)|Prime]], Optimus turned the role down, proposing instead that he investigate Cybertron's history, in an attempt to bring some of the good the Primes created back to the world. Accordingly, Sentinel redrew his plans for Cybertron, having Optimus lead the archaeological [[Science Division]], while placing Megatron in charge of Cybertron's [[Defense Force]]. {{storylink|Foundation issue 2|Foundation #2}} Alas, neither Sentinel nor Optimus realized that Megatron had eavesdropped on their conversation. {{storylink|Foundation issue 1|Foundation #1}} Megatron was consumed with anger and jealousy at the knowledge that he was Sentinel's second choice, and further lost all respect for Prime because he had turned down an incredible birthright. {{storylink|Foundation issue 2|Foundation #2}} Nevertheless, the pair were able to govern Cybertron together for two generations, their two personalities creating a balance; Prime was fair while Megatron was firm. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 1|Movie Prequel #1}} When [[Malcontent]] activity opposing Sentinel's order began escalating, however, Megatron intimidated Optimus into giving him supreme power in defense of the planet. {{storylink|Foundation issue 2|Foundation #2}}

[[File:Defiance1 Megs Prime argument.jpg|upright=2|thumb|"Hey, I wanted a mouthplate!"]]
When ''Lord'' High Protector Megatron toured a Science Division excavation site near the AllSpark [[Simfur Temple|temple]] at [[Simfur]], he and Optimus clashed over several issues; all Megatron cared about was whether the site contained power similar to the AllSpark, while Optimus insisted on taking things slowly with the reminder that it was ''his'' division was in charge of the proceedings. Subsequently, after the dig uncovered a mysterious [[sarcophagus|relic]], Optimus and Megatron's argument over what should be done with it was interrupted by an attack from [[Ejoornian|aliens]] from the neighbouring [[Eshems Nebula]]. Megatron ordered that the relic be taken to his personal quarters for protection during the battle, and Optimus could not argue. {{storylink|Defiance issue 1|Defiance #1}} After the aliens were repelled, Optimus ordered his science teams to help the survivors of the attack while he went to confer with Megatron, only to nearly come to blows with the High Protector when he demanded that Optimus marshal the Science Division for war against the aliens. Fear that Megatron sought to divide Cybertron, Optimus called a meeting of the Science Division and appealed to all those who served under him not to join Megatron on his crusade, asking them instead to stay by his side and continue on with their mission of peaceful research. {{storylink|Defiance issue 2|Defiance #2}} With help from closest confidants [[Prowl (Movie)|Prowl]] and [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]], Optimus broke into Megatron's quarters in search of some clue to his brother-in-arms' sudden compulsion towards war, but only had time to observe that the enigmatic relic had somehow been restored to pristine condition before he was forced to leave to avoid detection. {{storylink|Defiance issue 3|Defiance #3}}

[[File:Defiance3 optimus cybertron alt mode.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.8|Guys, stop look'n at me! I'm transforming here!]]
Returning to Science Division headquarters, Optimus was greeted with a stunning discovery: Ratchet, Elita-One and Arcee had uncovered other ancient artefacts, each of which bore a symbol that matched one on Optimus's helmet: a symbol that proved Optimus was indeed a descendant of the Dynasty of Primes. Prime went with Arcee and Ratchet to the excavation site, where they discussed the ramifications of this new information, only for the group to be apprehended for treason by an unwilling Prowl, forced to do so on the orders of Megatron. This turned out to be a trap, however: while they were being escorted to the city of [[Metrotitan (ROTF)|Metrotitan]], Megatron's forces ambushed them with intent to kill. Optimus bested Starscream and collapsed [[Metrotitan (ROTF)|Metrotitan]] on top of the attackers, {{storylink|Defiance issue 3|Defiance #3}} then raced back to the embattled excavation site to usher Elite-One, Sentinel Prime and Wheeljack to safety, with a little help from Elita's sister [[Chromia (ROTF)|Chromia]]. Optimus informed Sentinel of the marking on his head that proved his mentor had been right all along: now, he was Optimus ''Prime''. {{storylink|Foundation issue 3|Foundation #3}} All those loyal to Optimus regrouped at [[Burthov]], where Optimus was recognized as the leader of the group, with Prowl serving as his lieutenant. [[File:Foundation1 optimus is mad.jpg|thumb|upright=1.3| If I had a face everytime I got angry, I'd be rich.]] Captain Ironhide—a former member of Megatron's Defense Force, who had now christened themselves the "Decepticons"—informed Optimus of the huge starship ''[[Nemesis (ROTF)|Nemesis]]'' that Megatron was building, and the newly christened Prime began working toward equipping his own side with similar vessels. Though the Autobots found themselves at an advantage when the ''Nemesis'' left Cybertron with the balance of the Decepticon forces, it was then that ''true'' war finally broke out between Optimus's and Megatron's forces. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4|Defiance #4}}

The war raged for thousands of years, with no end in sight until Sentinel came up with a solution: a "torch" that could bring the conflict to an end without the mass murder of the Decepticons. Contact with the AllSpark was required to activate it, so the Autobots made for Simfur Temple, {{storylink|Foundation issue 3|Foundation #3}} where Optimus held off Megatron so that Elita-One could activate the torch and deliver it to Sentinel. Sentinel loaded the torch aboard the Autobots' ship, the ''[[Ark (DOTM)|Ark]]'', but to Optimus and Megatron's disbelief, Starscream blew the ship out of the air. Consumed with grief and rage at the apparent death of his mentor, Optimus ordered Wheeljack to use the second, remaining ''[[Ark (Movie)|Ark]]'' to transport the AllSpark away Simfur, then declared he would be going on a suicide mission to kill Megatron. {{storylink|Foundation issue 4|Foundation #4}} Concerned for their friend, Ironhide and Elita-One stayed by Prime's side as he made his way through the soldiers guarding Megatron's [[Lord High Protector citadel|citadel]]. {{storylink|Foundation issue 1|Foundation #1}} {{storylink|Foundation issue 2|Foundation #2}} Optimus demanded Megatron face him, but the Decepticon leader responded by dropping the [[smelting pool]] on him. Ironhide saved Prime from the fiery rain, and Optimus then entered Megatron's chamber alone, to discover his former ally surrounded by hungry [[hatchling]]s, confident that the "weak" Optimus would not harm the infants to get to him. {{storylink|Foundation issue 3|Foundation #3}} At that point, Wheeljack's team removed the AllSpark from its temple, plunging Cybertron into darkness. Optimus escaped, leaving Megatron to fend off his ravenous hatchlings, and joined Ironhide in fending off Starscream and Shockwave. Returning to oversee the AllSpark's transportation, Optimus recognized that the drastic actions he had taken had forever fractured his relationship with Elita-One, and observed he still had a long way to go to being a great leader. {{storylink|Foundation issue 4|Foundation #4}}

[[File:Ark Bridge Defiance4.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.5|"Who ''are'' all you people?"]]
To put the AllSpark's power beyond Megatron's reach, Optimus Prime made preparations to send it off-planet. Allowing word to reach the Decepticons that the cube was being held at Simfur, Prime and the main force of his Autobots occupied their enemies in battle there, while a small team led by Bumblebee guarded the AllSpark's true hiding place, [[Tyger Pax]]. The cube was launched into space, and Megatron immediately gave chase. {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 1|Movie Prequel #1}} {{storylink|Movie Prequel issue 2|Movie Prequel #2}} Optimus was immediately regretful of his decision, feeling that in buying the Autobots some time in the war, he had sentenced their world to death, but Prowl insisted he had made the right choice, and that he had turned death into a fighting chance to live. Bolstered by Prowl's words, Prime and his Autobots took off after the AllSpark and Megatron aboard the ''Ark'', hopeful that they could defeat the Decepticon leader while he was alone, and bring the cube back to heal their homeworld. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream issue 1|The Reign of Starscream #1}}

[[File:AllianceOptimusHoloDriver.jpg|upright=1.8|thumb|[[Peter Cullen|Optimus Prime]] driving Optimus Prime! Sheer awesomeness!]]
Following Optimus and the Autobots' arrival on Earth, and the subsequent battle of [[Mission City]] and the destruction of Megatron and the AllSpark, {{storylink|Transformers: Movie Adaptation}} Optimus Prime helped eliminate the remaining [[AllSpark Mutation]]s skittering around the city, then requested the help of William Lennox and his men in getting the Autobots out of the city before other, less trustworthy humans could arrive. They located a trailer that Prime could use to transport the deceased body of his first lieutenant [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]], and, equipped with a hologrammatic driver to avoid suspicion on the road, Prime led his Autobots in rolling out. Sector Seven's Seymour Simmons would later exploit this friendship between Prime and Lennox when, a month later, he convinced Lennox to request assistance from Prime and the Autobots in transporting the Decepticons' remains. {{storylink|Alliance issue 1|Alliance #1}} Prime's team was to escort a Sector Seven convoy from their Nevada base to a naval base at [[California|San Diego, California]], from whence the Decepticons and Jazz's remains would be buried at sea. Before departing Nevada, he entrusted the remaining AllSpark fragment to [[Vine|Professor Vine]] for safekeeping, but had second thoughts soon after leaving, and ordered Bumblebee and Ironhide to turn around and retrieve it. {{storylink|Alliance issue 2|Alliance #2}} The two returned to discover that the base had been attacked in their absence by Decepticons [[Wreckage (Movie)|Wreckage]] and Starscream; Prime soon arrived back to retake ownership of the shard. {{storylink|Alliance issue 3|Alliance #3}}

[[File:Alliance4 angryLennox Prime.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8| Did I ever tell you about my unhealthy addiction?]]
Weeks later, following the aquatic interment of Jazz and the Decepticons, Optimus and Lennox agreed to a formal [[NEST|alliance between the Autobots and humans]] as the first line of offense and defense against the Decepticons. The team trained on the island of Diego Garcia, their mutual respect for one another growing, and soon word came in of new Decepticon sightings around Earth. {{storylink|Alliance issue 3|Alliance #3}} For their first mission, NEST was deployed to [[San Francisco]] to take out the Decepticons Deadend and Swindle, the former of whom was quickly dispatched by Prime via a head-on collision. Swindle's last words caused Prime concern, as they suggested more Decepticons would soon be coming to search the Earth for something; Lennox feared it might be Sam Witwicky, and Prime, sadly convinced the boy was destined to be a part of the conflict, decided to send Bumblebee to resume his role as Sam's guardian. {{storylink|Alliance issue 4|Alliance #4}}

[[File:Alliance4 Prime killingspree.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|Freedom is the right of all '''non-Decepticon''' sentient beings.]]
Knowing that Lennox's superiors held little trust in the Autobots, Optimus Prime dedicated himself and his Autobots to working harder to prove their goodwill through continued success. NEST proceeded to hunt for Decepticons around the world over the next year, with Optimus Prime personally destroying [[Jetstorm (Movie)|Jetstorm]], [[Dropkick (Movie)|Dropkick]] and [[Incinerator (Movie)|Incinerator]]. NEST's ranks continued to grow, with Autobot refugees even arriving on Earth in response to the message Optimus had sent into space, including Prime's old friend Elita-One. {{storylink|Alliance issue 4|Alliance #4}} One particular new arrival proved a little troublesome, however: in November 2008, [[Sideswipe (Movie)|Sideswipe]] caused chaos in [[Uruguay]] when he recklessly pursued his old Decepticon foe [[Demolishor (ROTF)|Demolishor]] towards [[Buenos Aires]]. Prime assured [[Morshower|Admiral Morshower]] that they would forcibly bring Sideswipe in if necessary, but fortunately, Ironhide was able to calm the rampaging Autobot down. {{storylink|Tales of the Fallen issue 2|Tales of the Fallen #2}} Demolishor escaped, but was tracked to Shanghai by NEST the following year, and Prime's team headed out to finally take the giant Decepticon down. {{storylink|Alliance issue 4|Alliance #4}}

[[File:Nefarious2 Prime on Soundwave.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.95|Ass-whooping. Noun. To have your posterior presented to you with overwhelming force.]]
After Optimus's death and rebirth during the conflict with The Fallen, {{storylink|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Official Movie Adaptation|Revenge of the Fallen movie adaptation}} NEST resumed its day-to-day business of hunting down rogue Decepticons. Optimus was dissatisfied with their present reactive state, however, insisting that they begin proactively rooting out Decepticons before they struck. With NEST low on resources, Optimus deployed several new Autobot arrivals to deal with a Decepticon attack on [[Kingdom Petrochemicals]]. {{storylink|Nefarious issue 1|Nefarious #1}} The presence of [[Initiative|unknown humans]] at the petrochemical plant gave Prime and Lennox something to puzzle over, and soon after, when NEST was tipped off to Decepticon activity in [[Utah]], the pair believed things to be connected. Optimus went to Ironhide and Sideswipe's aid in Utah, besting [[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]] and taking him into Autobot custody in order to learn everything he knew about the enigmatic human organization. {{storylink|Nefarious issue 2|Nefarious #2}} Optimus oversaw the preparations of the facilities for holding Soundwave, rather than face having to tell Major Lennox what they'd done, but this proved the wrong choice: when the plane carrying Soundwave was shot down by [[Buzzsaw (ROTF)|Buzzsaw]], Prime's off-the-record actions meant that Lennox was unable to call in any help. {{storylink|Nefarious issue 3|Nefarious #3}}

[[File:Nefarious6 Optimus must feed allspark.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|I hope [[Rubik's Cube#Revenge of the Fallen|this cube]] isn't like the ones you find in [[Walgreens]].]]
When [[Theodore Galloway]] got too close to discovering the actions of the [[Initiative]], the mysterious human group, they sent the mind-controlled Decepticon [[Ransack (ROTF)|Ransack]] to eliminate him. Optimus sent [[Skids (ROTF)|Skids]] and [[Mudflap (ROTF)|Mudflap]] to help him, after which Soundwave returned and proposed an alliance between himself and the Autobots to stop the Initiative for good. {{storylink|Nefarious issue 4|Nefarious #4}} Soundwave led the Autobots to the location of the [[Initiative base]] in [[California]], but the mobile headquarters had moved on by the time they arrived. Following its trail to Utah, Optimus sensed the power of something very like the [[AllSpark]] upon approach, and began to realize what they were up against—though he did not expect that the Autobots would then find themselves facing brainwashed Transformers, including [[Armorhide (Movie)|some]] [[Blazemaster|of]] [[Brawn (ROTF)|their]] [[Smokescreen (Movie)|own]] comrades! {{storylink|Nefarious issue 5|Nefarious #5}}

During the battle, Optimus demanded their foe surrender the [[Project Nefarious|artificial AllSpark]] they possessed, but [[Carter Newell]], head of the Initiative, responded by trying to use the artifact to terminate all Cybertronian life. An injury courtesy of [[Reedman]] aborted the attempt, and Newell tried to flee, forcing Optimus to ram the truck he was in. From the wreck, Optimus pulled the rapidly-destabilizing faux-AllSpark, and was ready to feed it his own [[spark]] to stop the deadly chain reaction building within it. Luckily that turned out to be unnecessary, as [[Fortress (ROTF)|Fortress]]—a [[Seeker (ROTF)|Seeker]] who had long been the Initiative's captive—took the AllSpark from him and carried it into space, where it exploded safely. In the aftermath, Optimus noted that the Initiative databanks had been picked clean by Soundwave, and feared the possibility that anyone else might attempt to recreate the AllSpark. {{storylink|Nefarious issue 6|Nefarious #6}}

[[File:RisingStorm1 ElitaandOptimus.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.5|Optimus, you don't wanna know.]]
The Autobot refugees rescued from the Initiative were eager to get back in the field, but Optimus encouraged them to take more time to recuperate, as they were clearly not fully healed. The havoc the Initiative wrought had convinced Optimus that the Autobots had to refocus their efforts on a new objective: ensuring that no other humans could exploit Cybertronian technology. A team inducing Elita-One and her sisters was deployed to recover Cybertronian weapons from an arms dealer; upon their return to Diego Garcia, Prime shared a quiet moment with Elita, learning more about the new symbiotic bond that had recently been forged between her and her sisters, and growing fearful of the violent streak she had developed. {{storylink|Rising Storm issue 1|Rising Storm #1}}

When word reached NEST that Sam Witwicky had come under attack from Decepticons in [[Philadelphia]], Optimus mobilized the Autobots to respond. With Arcee having been injured on the previous mission, he initially wanted her and her sisters to stay behind, but they insisted on going. {{storylink|Rising Storm issue 2|Rising Storm #2}}

During the flight to Philadelphia, Optimus tried once more to have Arcee sit out of the mission, but Elita reinforced her need for revenge—a sentiment that only opened old wounds between her and Prime, reminding both of the time in the past when Prime let his rage get the better of him. Elita's anger over Prime's abandonment of her on Cybertron, and the fact that her death and reunion with him had only led to more fighting and killing, boiled over, and she and her sisters angrily departed on their own mission: to infiltrate what the Autobots believe to be the Decepticons' base of operations in upstate New York. {{storylink|Rising Storm issue 3|Rising Storm #3}}

[[File:RisingStorm4 shockers vs prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|Shockwave threatens his face collection.]]
Optimus and the rest of the team proceeded on to Philadelphia, where they engaged and contained the Decepticons, but after a while, Elita reappeared, attempting to warn them that the whole thing was a trap laid by Shockwave. No sooner had she spoken his name, the cyclopean Decepticon himself rocketed down out of the air and crushed the life out of her. Driven into a rage by her death, Optimus Prime took Shockwave on one-on-one, and would have killed him had Shockwave's pet [[Driller]] not came to save his master. {{storylink|Rising Storm issue 4|Rising Storm #4}}

Shockwave had also ravaged the Diego Garcia base and killed all the Autobots stationed there, requiring it to be shut down and NEST operations moved to Washington, D.C. Optimus oversaw the decommissioning of the facility, {{storylink|Dark of the Moon issue 1|Dark of the Moon #1}} which was soon followed by the return and betrayal of Sentinel Prime. {{storylink|Transformers: Dark of the Moon Movie Adaptation|Dark of the Moon adaptation}}
{{--}}

====''Transformers: Beginnings''====
[[File:Optimusprimemovieprequel.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|Black and white is edgy and cool, so we use it Bumbles.]]
{{voiceactor|[[Peter Cullen]] (English)}}
Bumblebee remembered Optimus Prime's orders that they must launch the AllSpark into space, for it was better to lose it to the depths of space than allow Lord Megatron to corrupt it with his evil. For wherever there is hope, there is life. {{storylink|Transformers: Beginnings (Movie)|Transformers: Beginnings}}

{{note|Transformers: Beginnings is a condensed, flash-animated retelling of the events of the [[Transformers: Movie Prequel|Movie Prequel]], described in the above section.}}
{{-}}

====''Schick Hydrobot and the Transformers''====
[[File:OptimusMegatronSchickComic.jpeg|thumb|300px|No Megatron! '''THAT FACE IS MINE!''']]
While searching for Decepticons, who had plans to build an Energon converter to create a massive army and enslave the Earth, Optimus Prime, Bumblebee, and Hound came across [[Hydrobot (TLK)|Hydrobot]] and mistook him for a [[Decepticon]]. Before they could catch him, Hydrobot escaped from the Autobots' clutches. The trio started to realize that they might have judged the small 'bot wrongly when Hound found out that the [[H-Boostium|substance]] Hydrobot left behind was nothing like something a Decepticon would use. Optimus requested Hound to trace its source, which led the Autobots to a [[Schick]] R&D department. They gained access into it in vehicle mode by fooling the guard into believing that the vehicles modes they were using was ordered by the scientist Dr. [[Hiroshi Benson]] himself. Upon gaining access to the laboratory, they confronted Hiroshi in robot mode, which left the human scientist baffled.

Shortly after the scientist finished explaining the origin of the substance and Hydrobot, a squadron of Decepticons led by Megatron suddenly bursted through the wall, explaining their intent to use the devices inside Hiroshi's laboratory to build the Energon converter. Luckily, Hydrobot arrived at the scene to help the Autobots. Just before Megatron and Optimus could dish it out, Megatron grabbed a hold of Hiroshi but failed to stop the human from explaining how to use the [[Energy-field razor|control set]] against Decepticons. A surprise punch from Optimus staggered Megatron and gave Hydrobot enough time to snitch the device away and use it to release a shock burst through Bumblebee towards the Decepticons, prompting them to retreat. After all was said and done, Optimus apologised to Hydrobot for the misunderstanding. The trio and Hiroshi later realised that Hydrobot had forged a new life for himself. The trio then gave Hydrobot a lift and bid their farewells. {{storylink|A New Friend|A New Friend}}
{{-}}

===Titan movie comics===
[[File:OptimusMovie GeoffSenior.JPG|upright=1.4|left|thumb|Starting as he means to go on.]]
When war broke out, Optimus Prime studied the entire history of intergalactic warfare from any datatrack he could find—he studied whole campaigns to desperate last stands, gaining a focused "playbook" of warfare strategy. He understands warfare on a practical and psychological level, and in desperate battles knows to show no mercy to opponents beyond a swift death. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 4|Autobot VS Decepticon Smackdown!}}

While preparing to launch the AllSpark into space, Optimus hesitated before pressing the fateful button, fearful that he was condemning his world to a slow death. Before he could reach a conclusion, Prime came under attack from a drone sent by Megatron to kill him, and instructed his assistant [[Arctus]] to launch the AllSpark if he had not returned from the fight within ten cycles. When Prime's battle with the drone carried them both into the AllSpark chamber, the drone attempted to alert Megatron to the cube's location, forcing a desperate Prime to transform into his cometary protoform and cannonball directly into his opponent. The drone was successfully blown it pieces, but Prime was knocked out by the impact, and experienced a prophetic vision of [[Mission City|a battle on another world]]. Realizing that the AllSpark's ejection could spread the Transformers' war to other planets, Prime awoke too late to change the course of fate, and could only watch as the AllSpark rocketed off into the sky... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 1|Prelude: Optimus Prime}}

Prime and his Autobots pursued the AllSpark to Earth and battled the Decepticons for it. Almost immediately after triumphing over their foes, however, Optimus and his men had to face them ''again'' when they somehow rose as [[zombie]]s. Despite having no idea how they could be stopped and having had his power drained by fighting Megatron, Optimus continued to fight the monsters rather than let them run amok. Fortunately, Ratchet deduced that they had been reanimated by energies scavenged from the AllSpark by Starscream, enabling the Autobots to target their power sources and slay them once more. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 7|Starscream's Militia}}

[[File:Titan5 Optimustwins.jpg|thumb|upright=1.6|"Your slang is bad and you should ''feel'' bad!"]]
With the formation of NEST, Optimus found he had to strive daily to gain credibility with the human powers-that-be. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.5|Reversal of Fortune}} Working diligently to root out Decepticon threats around the globe, Prime was too busy to meet with new Autobot arrivals Skids and Mudflap, who claimed to have important information for him, though Ironhide noted that the twins had cried wolf so many times, even Optimus had trouble believing their stories these days. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.3|Learning Curve}} While in [[Australia]] on NEST business, Prime went into action alongside Arcee to apprehend [[Sideways (ROTF)|Sideways]]; the two Autobots found the terrain down under to be a challenge, while Sideways was in his element, so Prime elect to just ''blow up'' the terrain instead. Taking the captive Sideways back to Diego Garcia, Prime was greeted on arrival with the sight of Skids and Mudflap brawling on the runway. He bawled them out over improper conduct, but before he could go further, Scorponok made an attack. In the firefight that followed, Optimus tripped over Skids, and by the time he had righted himself, Scorponok and Sideways had both escaped. Knowing that the enemy could ''not'' have got this close without NEST security being compromised, Optimus was convinced by Sideswipe's argument that the twins had turned traitor and had them taken away for questioning. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.5|Reversal of Fortune}}

When the twins were sprung by Decepticons, Prime agreed with Theodore Galloway that the Autobots would make finding the twins a number one priority. However, Optimus was left suspicious when a [[Soundwave (ROTF)|mysterious "friend"]] tipped the Autobots off about the twins. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.6|Outlaw Blues}} [[File:Titan10 Optimusgetsout.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|Never had a human face before. GIVE ME IT ANYWAY!]] Soon, it came out that the twins were being framed and by tracking the two, Optimus and his men found out about a Decepticon base near [[Mars (planet)|Mars]]. Optimus led a raid on it, taking down the [[Purple generic drone|drone army]] stationed there. But he never did get to hear Skids and Mudflap's intel, about a mysterious threat known as The Fallen... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.8|Back-to-Back}}

Following The Fallen's attack on Earth, Optimus continued operations against the Decepticons. [[Jolt (ROTF)|Jolt's]] over-enthusiasm began to muck that up, causing damage and getting NEST into trouble, despite Optimus's attempts to point this out to him. Optimus had to confine him to base. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.9|Culture Shock}} Soon after that, he was drawn out into a trap by [[Trophy White]] and the [[Free Men]], who wanted to take his head as a trophy. Optimus worked out their plan and allowed himself to be captured by the deranged hunter, in order to keep the fight away from civilians. He pretended to be securely chained down and listened to White's sociopathic ravings, before (at the moment he considered funniest) breaking free and taking White prisoner. Shockingly, he found keeping the severed heads of animals as trophies to be ''bad'', and destroyed Trophy's trophies. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.10| Bring Me the Head of Optimus Prime}}

[[File:DividedLoyalties prime striketeam.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8]]
When several Decepticons escaped from NEST's [[Bloemfontein]], [[South Africa]] holding facility, Optimus ordered his men to let the prisoners flee: a battle outside [[World Cup|a major sports event]] would cause unacceptable civilian casualties. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.13|Inside Out!}} This led to a major collapse in Autobot popularity, and open battles with Decepticons in cities were just risking further alienation. In response, Prime created a secret covert unit (even under NEST's radar) that would monitor the Decepticons, wait for windows of opportunity out of the public eye, and then hit hard and fast. While this worked, Optimus was left disquieted: the tactics he was using were too akin to the Decepticons, and a fine line was being walked. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.18|Shadow War}} Tracking the Decepticons, led by [[Bludgeon (ROTF)|Bludgeon]], to a base in [[Russia]], Optimus led a strike team in, unaware that [[Wheelie (ROTF)|Wheelie]] had sold them all out to Bludgeon and that they were walking into an ambush. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.20|Divided Loyalties}} "Luckily," Megatron arrived to destroy Bludgeon in punishment for running a rival faction; rather than engage Optimus, Megatron departed with the ominous warning that a day of reckoning was coming soon. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 2.21|A Short, Sharp Lesson!}}

[[File:Titan3-3 OpSoundwavefaceoff.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.8|"Sorry Soundwave, you're going to need braces."]]
When a relic of [[Ark (DOTM)|an unknown UFO]] was discovered in Fiesole, [[Italy]], Optimus led a NEST team to secure the find. Starscream launched a surprise attack to claim it: Optimus ordered the human archaeologist to keep digging and fought the Decepticon, taking two blows before overpowering and thrashing him. But Starscream kept fighting, asking Optimus if there were things worth dying for. Optimus agreed and said he was willing to die to save Earth from Decepticons... at which point Starscream suckerpunched him and stole the artifact. Optimus was left concerned about what the 'cons were up to {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 3.1|Fight for Fiesole}} but found himself distract by other plots hatched by Soundwave. After intel from Bumblebee led NEST to the Laguna De Guatavita, Optimus and Ratchet tracked down Soundwave working alongside the [[Tanto Gang]]. After the Decepticon and his allies had uncovered [[El Dorado]], Soundwave turned on the Tanto Gang, and the Autobots swooped in the middle of the carnage. Optimus beat down the Decepticon, and forced him to explain his motives: using El Dorado's gold, Soundwave planned on crashing the Earth's economy. Though the Autobots foiled the plot, both Soundwave and the Tanto Gang escaped when the latter triggered a bomb to cover their retreat. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 3.2|Blood And Gold}} Optimus then encountered Soundwave in [[Spain]] after he'd drawn [[Robert Epps]] and Bumblebee into an ambush. With Bumblebee near death, Optimus agreed to fight Soundwave without weapons if it would mean his comrade's survived, and he was nearly sent plummeting off the mountaintop in the resulting fight. However, he managed to use Soundwave's sonic blasts and the local environment against his foe; by locating a fissure, he snuck behind Soundwave, and shoved him into an avalanche triggered by the Decepticon's attacks. Soundwave was swept away and Optimus emerged victorious. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 3.3|Dealing with the Devil}}

When Ratchet contacted NEST to let them know there was trouble at the [[Tech Museum of Innovation]], Optimus himself turned out to help chase off Starscream and Barricade. He later tried to convince the anti-[[Transformer|Cybertronian]] protesters that the Autobots were here to help, but Ratchet and Ironhide's actions during the fight had already convinced them of that, and their leader, [[Marcus Castor]], was already producing anti-Decepticon T-shirts. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 3.4|Automatic for the People}}

[[File:ThousandIslandFight prime shield.jpg|thumb|upright=2]]
In the aftermath of the battle for Chicago, Optimus and Decepticon defector [[Drift (AOE)|Drift]] were cleaning up ''Ark'' debris on the Moon. Optimus was bemused that Drift would rather be hunting down Decepticons instead, asking if he really wanted to fight his former allies, and pointing out this was necessary work. Soon after, Drift was horrified to find the corpse of his old comrade [[Knucklehead]]. He recounted a story involving them and the murderer, [[Lockdown (ROTF)|Lockdown]], and Prime said he was sorry for the loss. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 5.1|Adrift in Space and Time}}

A while later, Optimus, Bumblebee, and [[Crosshairs (AOE)|Crosshairs]] engaged a trio of Decepticon survivors in [[Jakarta]], [[Indonesia]]. When their charges retreated, Optimus suggested that the three Autobots follow together, but Crosshairs insisted that he go it alone. After giving permission for this action, Prime commanded Bumblebee to keep a watchful eye on the new arrival and relay any findings back to him. With the three Decepticons located and single-handedly defeated by Crosshairs on the island of [[Pulau Bidadari]], Optimus informed Crosshairs that he was more than combat ready, but he had the feeling that they may have missed [[Lockdown (ROTF)|something...]] {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 5.2|Thousand Island Fight}}

[[File:AcceptNoSubstitute prime vs stinger.jpg|left|thumb|upright=2]]
When [[Stinger (AOE)|Stinger]] impersonated Bumblebee, Optimus found himself training his weapons on both of the 'bots, confident that the true Bumblebee would be able to prove his identity. He did not have long to wait, as Bumblebee saved a human who had fallen from a nearby burning building, and Optimus quickly overpowered Stinger and ordered him to get out of his sight, repulsed by his artificial nature. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 5.3|Accept No Substitutes!}}

Hearing a news report suggesting a potential Transformer threat in the town of [[Cullum]], Optimus Prime investigated alongside Crosshairs, and discovered that the area was being menaced by a powerful [[turbofox]]. Crosshairs had once lost an entire platoon to a pack of turbofoxes and struggled to overcome his fears in order to help Prime battle the creature, but fortunately, just as Prime was about to become fox-food, Crosshairs got his head in order and blasted the beast. Optimus congratulated him on conquering his fear, and hoped that humankind would be able to do the same and become allies of the Autobots' once again. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 5.5|Creature of Chaos}}
{{-}}

====Alternate timeline====
[[File:TitanUK9 frozen prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5|The Prime Who Came In From The Cold]]
In a parallel universe, the battle of Mission City turned out very differently—Optimus was defeated and captured by Megatron, and the AllSpark fell into Decepticon hands. The Decepticons proceeded to conquer North America, and by the start of 2008, had begun a plan to cyberform the Earth using the AllSpark's energies. Working with Mikaela Banes and [[Tom Banachek]], the Autobots staged a plan to rescue Prime, who they knew was being held in Sector Seven's old Hoover Dam base, repurposed by the Decepticons as their new headquarters... but when Bumblebee and Mikaela infiltrated the base, they did not expect to find Prime frozen solid by the liquid nitrogen cooling system previously used to imprison Megatron. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 9|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 1}} While Bumblebee distracted Megatron, Mikaela began her attempt to deactivate the system, {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 10|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 2}} but soon came under attack herself by [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]]. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 10|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 3}} Fortunately, she was able to dupe Frenzy into rupturing the liquid nitrogen tanks with his blades, damaging the system to the point where Prime began to thaw out. The revived Prime challenged Megatron to a duel, {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 12|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 4}} but as they fought, Optimus learned that Megatron's link to the AllSpark allowed his old enemy to instantly heal any damage Prime managed to inflict. Luckily, Bumblebee and Mikaela saved the day, hitting the distracted Megatron with an old [[Sector Seven]] nanovirus, which destroyed him from within. Simultaneously, Autobots elsewhere destroyed the AllSpark to halt its cyberforming of Earth, but despite this success and the death of Megatron, Prime could take no satisfaction in victory: this battle was won, but the war remained... {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 13|Twilight's Last Gleaming, Part: 5}}

[[File:Aftermathpt2 prime attacked by NATO.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.5|Proportions? Never heard of it!]]
Surveying the damage done to Earth, Prime became resigned to the fact that Humanity, battered by Decepticon occupation, would view both Autobot and Decepticon as hostile invaders. Worse yet, although a fragment of the AllSpark had survived the cube's destruction, Optimus feared its contact with Megatron had corrupted it beyond all hope. In spite of these concerns, Prime was quick to order his men to protect a human shelter against Decepticon attack, but the Autobots' defense was misinterpreted as hostile action, and they came under attack from a [[NATO]] unit. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 14|Aftermath, Part 1}} Optimus refused to allow his men to return fire, but fortunately, the crisis soon passed when the human who had ordered the attack was freed from the Decepticon mind-control that had guided his actions. Optimus surrendered to the humans, beginning an alliance between the Autobots and the United States government. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 15|Aftermath Part 2}}

After examining a particularly volatile spot of geological flux brought on by the AllSpark's energy in [[Okeechobee]], [[Florida]] alongside Tom Banachek and recently appointed [[Theodore Allen|President Theodore Allen]], Optimus Prime returned to the Autobots' base in [[Savannah]], [[Georgia]], where he was shocked to discover that Ratchet had used the AllSpark fragment that Prime had entrusted to him to resurrect Jazz. Prime assigned Ratchet and Jazz to monitor the Okeechobee situation, but warned Ratchet to keep a close eye on Jazz, fearing what the potentially-tainted AllSpark had done to him. Unfortunately, Prime's fears proved true, and Jazz soon revealed himself to have been left corrupted and amoral by the shard's power. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 16|Dark Spark}}

[[File:ReturntoCybertron optimus allies with stockade.jpg|thumb|upright=1.6|"Don't worry, readers, I'll just leave him to starve to death in #25." <br> "What was that?"<br>"I SAID I'M GONNA KILL YA"]]
Optimus Prime soon worked out that while the AllSpark's transformation of Earth had been halted, the damage had been done: the infection had reached [[Earth's core|the planet's core]], and the organic Earth and the technological transformation were now fighting for supremacy, killing the planet in the process. While he arranged for a specialist team to investigate and limit the damage, Prime reported his findings to President Allen, but refrained from telling him of the back-up plan he was putting into action lest humanity's hopes be unduly raised: a team led by Ironhide was to retrieve [[Nucleon (substance)|Nucleon]] from the dead Cybertron in the hope it could be used to save Earth. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 17|Return to Cybertron, Part 1}} Planetary surveyor [[Camshaft (Movie)|Camshaft]] was appalled when Prime revealed the plan to him, knowing how unstable Nucleon could be, {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 18|Return to Cybertron, Part 2}} and the bad news continued to pour in when a distress call from Ironhide's team reported that a band of Decepticons led by [[Stockade (Movie)|Stockade's]] already had control of Cybertron's Nucleon. Optimus led the entirety of the Earth-bound Autobots (save Camshaft's team) to Cybertron as back-up, but was surprised to see Cybertron coming to ''them'', possessed by the evil entity [[Unicron]]. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 19|Return to Cybertron, Part 3}} Shot down by Unicron, Prime's team abandoned ship and made it to Cybertron using their cometary protoforms. Forming an alliance with Stockade, Prime formed a plan to drain off the Nucleon so Unicron couldn't use it as a power source, while the bulk of the Transformers provided a distraction by going underground and shooting up Unicron's body. The plan worked, Nucleon was secured for Earth, and Optimus extended an offer for Stockade to join them on Earth whenever he wished. Optimus was left optimistic that Autobots and Decepticons had come together in a common cause. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 20|Return to Cybertron: Part 4}}

[[File:Optimus Titan22.JPG|upright=1.6|left|thumb|Freedom is not dispensed here, sentient fools, only DEATH!]]
On returning to Earth, Prime found the Decepticons had seized the Autobot base and surrounding area; he made the decision to withdraw to [[Washington, D.C.]], knowing that this meant leaving Mikaela in Decepticon hands. Upon landing at an air base, the Decepticon-controlled President Allen lured him into a trap, and he found himself fighting Jazz, now a Decepticon hired gun. Optimus lured him away from humans and prepared to engage him, but when a second assassin named [[Kullt]] turned up, Jazz gunned it down out of annoyance. Optimus had viewed Jazz as a lost cause but now stated there was still some Autobot in him: he ''could'' have let Kullt do the work for him and then killed him, but he saved Prime instead. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 21|Hard Target}} Prime then took the Autobots to rescue Mikaela; he himself went first, launching himself in protoform mode to land in Savannah like a bomb and tearing his way through [[Swindle (Movie)|drone hordes]]. He was quickly gunned down by aerial units and about to be killed by Starscream, but this whole flashy attack had been a diversion—allowing other Autobots a chance to hit the distracted air forces and nab Mikaela. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 22|The Decepticon Who Haunted Himself}}

[[File:Revolutionpt3 optimus vs megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.6]]
Optimus seemed to quickly bond with [[Seward|General Seward]], his military liaison at Andrews Air Base, but that didn't help when the mind-controlled President Allen had the government order the Autobots out of America. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 23|Revolution, Part One}} However, having deduced that Allen was under Decepticon control following his clash with Jazz, Prime had anticipated this. As expected, Allen attempted to [[Nuclear weapon|nuke]] the Autobots' ship as it departed, but he only succeeded in blowing up a decoy ship Prime had had Ironhide and Bumblebee prepare. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 25|Revolution, Part Three}} Believed dead, the Autobots went undercover on Cybertron, making another deal with Stockade to have his team protect Earth in their absence, kicking off a [[Decepticon Civil War]]. Optimus didn't trust Stockade to not renege on the deal and just take control of Earth for himself, {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 24|Revolution, Part Two}} but he ensured the Decepticons were set up for the Autobot's final strike: forcibly teleporting all of the enemy to Cybertron via Unicron's leftover teleportational engines, then stranding Cybertron in a remote solar system. Optimus led the troops to Earth and witnessed Megatron's return from the dead, but this proved no impediment to the Autobots' plan: Prime briefly distracted Megatron so he could be tagged with a teleporter like the other Decepticons, and the next minute, both Megatron, Stockade, and their entire armies were all teleported away. This left the Autobots stranded on Earth and with a lot of clean-up to do... but at long last, Optimus Prime had finally brought the war to an end. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 25|Revolution, Part Three}}

===Toy bios===
[[File:FireBlastOptimusart.jpg|thumb|left|250px]]
Orion Pax used to be a humble data scientist, however, he would eventually receive the Matrix of Leadership and become the universe's greatest protector Optimus Prime. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Tribute|Evolution Pack Optimus Prime & Orion Pax}}

The truck Optimus Prime [[trans-scan]]ned upon arrival on Earth was ''the coolest thing he ever saw''. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Voyager Class toys|Robo-Vision Optimus Prime}}

When the AllSpark was destroyed in Mission City, Optimus was bathed in its power and became a living receptacle: he could destroy or heal with the merest thought. He still remained dedicated to peace and altered his exterior decorations to match the ones he bore as a young leader, before the beginning of the war. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Voyager Class toys|First Strike Optimus Prime}} When Starscream came out of hiding, Prime teamed with Arcee to hunt him down. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Voyager Class toys|Arcee, Starscream & Optimus Prime}}

However, as more Decepticons under Starscream's command began appearing on Earth, Prime had to use the AllSpark power within him to alter his body into a new sensor-transparent, super-silent form for stealth missions. Prime considered it dishonorable but knew had to be done. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Leader Class toys|Nightwatch Optimus Prime}} Unfortunately, Starscream followed his lead and also modified himself for stealth so he could target Prime personally. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Legends Class toys|Nightwatch Optimus Prime vs. Stealth Starscream}}

[[File:Evasion-Mode-Optimus-Prime-art.jpeg|thumb|200px]]
Once the Decepticons were beaten on Earth, Optimus was provided with intelligence by [[Sector Seven]] about Decepticon bases on Mars. After assuming new colors, he headed to the red planet. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Fast Action Battlers|Fire Blast Optimus Prime}} As it turned out, though, the Decepticons would soon strike at Earth again; Prime upgraded his sensor suite and trained with Ironhide to better track their enemies. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#ROTFvoyager|''Revenge of the Fallen'' Voyager Optimus Prime}}

Following the battle with The Fallen in Egypt, Optimus made a particular point of tracking down Starscream, {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#HFTDleader|''Hunt for the Decepticons'' Leader Optimus Prime}} and enhanced his arsenal with weapons designed to take on airborne Decepticons. Unfortunately, these new weapons were not a great help in battling hypnotic Decepticon [[Mindwipe (ROTF)|Mindwipe]], who prevented Prime from opening fire by attacking him with mind-controlled humans. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#VoyagerDefender|Defender Optimus Prime}}

Prime had more luck against [[Banzaitron (TF 2010)|Banzaitron]], who mistakenly believed that Optimus won his fights through raw power. In actuality, Prime's decades of training made him one of Cybertron's most skilled fighters, and Banzaitron held little of a challenge for him. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#BattleBlades|Battle Blades Optimus Prime}}

Optimus was known to team up with [[Comettor (DOTM)|Comettor]] for lunar missions. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#OptimusComettor|Optimus Prime & Comettor}} It was on the lunar surface that lost Autobot leader Sentinel Prime was found, and the team-up of these two Primes meant the Decepticons didn't stand a chance! {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#walmartdlx|Walmart Deluxe Optimus Prime}}

Optimus continued to combat threats to the Autobots with various new upgrades like armor reinforced with [[Cybertanium]] {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Lunarfire|Lunarfire Optimus Prime}} and [[Tritanium]]. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#TritaniumPrime|Tritanium Optimus Prime}} He also got to use a variety of [[MechTech]] weapons, including a powerful Cybertanium battle axe {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#DOTMVoyFireburst|Fireburst Optimus Prime}} and the combining [[Mega Striker]] cannon, {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#StrikerOptimus|Striker Optimus}} and the incredible [[Omega Combat Armor]]. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#UltimatePrime|Ultimate Optimus Prime}}

Following the battle of Chicago, Optimus Prime was faced with a new kind of war, as once-strong alliances now stand in doubt. As Earth still needed him, Optimus altered his form so he could move around unrecognized and commit covert strikes on Decepticons. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Voyager Class toys 5|Evasion Mode Optimus Prime}}

As the sense of justice within Optimus Prime grew stronger, "Black Knight Optimus Prime", the reversed being that lived deep within him, also grew stronger. Optimus Prime was forced to face this being, whenever he tried to have a dialogue with his inner self. With the Nemesis Sword that could reverse time of substances with it's antimatter energy and the Sphere Shield, a transfer device, Black Knight Optimus Prime revealed itself as darkness in a world filled with light. {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#BlackKnightLeader|Black Knight Optimus Prime}}

===''Beast Wars Diorama Story''===
[[File:BWDS 11.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5]]
Under mysterious circumstances, Optimus Prime, Ironhide, Jazz, Ratchet, and Starscream were transported through a warp in space and time and deposited on the prehistoric Earth of another universe, smack into the middle of the [[Beast Wars (event)|"Beast Wars"]] between [[Optimus Primal (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Optimus Primal]]'s [[Maximal]]s and [[Megatron (BW)/Beast Wars cartoon continuity|Megatron]]'s [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]]. Prime made fast friends with Primal; they joined their forces and double-teamed the injured [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]], who had just taken a blast to the face from [[Tigatron]]. The two Optimuses commemorated their accomplishment of teamwork by shaking hands, while the Maximals and Ratchet looked on in approval. {{storylink|Tigatron Chapter}}

Starscream allied with the Predacons, and was soon joined by Blackout, his own Megatron, {{storylink|Gimlet Chapter}} and [[Brawl (Movie)|Brawl]] who all also travelled through the warp. The two Megatrons combined their troops into a fearsome force against the Autobots and Maximals. Fortunately for the Autobots and Maximals, [[Motorarm (BW)|Motorarm]] arrived to assist. The two factions then took formation against each other with the intention of combining their energies to attack the opposing side. With [[Motorarm (BW)|Motorarm]] leading the charge, the Maximals and the Autobots attacked first. {{storylink|Motorarm Chapter}}
{{-}}

===''The Real Effing Deal'' website===
[[File:TheRealEffingDealOptimusonMissionCity.jpeg|thumb|left|100px]]
During the Mission City "incident", a huge robot with flames on it was photographed by an anonymous person, and the photograph was sent to the [[The Real Effing Deal]] website by a mysterious [[Agent X|X]] with a short message stating that the photo was taken on [[July]], [[2007]] and that it was legitimate.

On [[July 4]], [[2008]], [[Leo Spitz]] made a post on it titled "''PROOF!!!! EXCLUSIVE IMAGE EXPOSES THE LIES OF MISSION CITY!!!!''" proclaiming that it was indeed legit and that this was the proof for the alien robots' existence on Earth. He concluded that the robot was an intelligent being based on its position and/or motion in the picture (especially noting that "the ball thing" on top of the robot's head was looking right at the camera person) and held its flame deco as proof that it was alien instead of manmade, saying that the government wouldn't put flames on a robot. [http://web.archive.org/web/20111019021624/http://www.therealeffingdeal.com/blog/proof/] {{storylink|The Real Effing Deal}}

===''Cyber Missions''===
{{voiceactor|[[Eric Edwards]] (English)|[[Blas Garcia]] (Latin-American Spanish), [[Sérgio Fortuna]] (Brazilian Portuguese)}}
[[File:CyberMissions1 Optimus.jpg|thumb|upright=1.6|Yes, I know, I'm scary.]]
During NEST's ongoing hunt for the Decepticons after the death of The Fallen, Optimus Prime recorded some information on the Autobot-Decepticon war for preservation in [[Vector Sigma]]. Bumblebee and Ironhide were reviewing the data when Bludgeon and Soundwave launched an attack on NEST command. {{storylink|Cyber Missions 1}} The next morning, Optimus had been informed of the attack and Soundwave's capture, and he ordered Ironhide to wait for reinforcements to assist in pursuing Bludgeon. Bludgeon made that difficult for Ironhide. {{storylink|Cyber Missions 2}} Later, Optimus contacted Ratchet to inform him that [[Lockdown (ROTF)|Lockdown]] was causing chaos in [[Mission City]], and he reminded the Autobot medic to be careful. {{storylink|Cyber Missions 3}}

Optimus and Sideswipe tracked Megatron to a disused factory, but the Decepticon leader eluded them by cloaking his spark signature. The hidden Megatron ambushed the two Autobots, and Optimus brought his swords to bear in battle, though he tried appealing to Megatron to surrender. Megatron's response came in the form of a blast that brought the fatory's roof down on the two Autobots, and though Megatron escaped, Optimus promised that he would no longer be able to hide. {{storylink|Cyber Missions 4}}

When Ironhide went missing after the incident with Bludgeon, Optimus searched for him, following directions from Bumblebee to a cave loaded with [[Energon]]. That cave turned out to be the hiding place of Decepticon hypnotist Mindwipe, who had Ironhide in his thrall, and tried to do the same to Optimus. The Autobot leader was able to resist Mindwipe's mesmerizing powers with a little help from his blaring truck horns, and defeated him, leaving a confused Ironhide to wonder what was going on. {{storylink|Cyber Missions 5}}

[[File:Cybermissions12 optimus faces megatron.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.6]]
Reports of [[Smolder (PCC)|Smolder]] attacking a building in [[Scramble City (city)|Scramble City]] resulted in Optimus dispatching Bumblebee and Ratchet to investigate. He filled them in on the situation en route. {{storylink|Cyber Missions 9}} During another mission, Optimus warned Sideswipe and Ratchet that they were being tracked, moments before the pair were attacked by Starscream and Mindwipe. {{storylink|Cyber Missions 10}}

Bumblebee reported to Optimus that he'd managed to pinpoint the location where Megatron and Starscream were meeting, leading Optimus to confront the two Decepticons in an Arctic region. When Megatron expressed surprise that he'd come to fight them without backup, Optimus assured him that the Autobots were never far from their leader's side. While Starscream went to attack the others, Optimus and Megatron continued to fight, with Optimus emerging the eventual victor. As Megatron tried to goad him into finishing the fight, Optimus announced that the Autobots protected all sentient life, and that included the Decepticons. He subsequently allowed Megatron to flee. {{storylink|Cyber Missions 12}}

[[File:Cybermissions GTFO.jpg|thumb|upright=1.6]]
{{quote|By showing even one such as him the power of mercy, Megatron might realize that we'll never give up, no matter the cost.|Optimus Prime|''Cyber Missions'' #12}}

Prime set up an elaborate trap involving a hologram of Soundwave to lure the Decepticons to a spot in the wilderness. The ploy worked, and Optimus attacked Megatron while his men attacked Megatron's troops. At one point during the battle, Megatron threw a train car at him, and he simply somersaulted along its length. Though Megatron boasted that the Decepticons would win through sheer determination, Optimus knocked him to the ground and gave a speech about building alliances, which was the cue for the [[human]]s to turn up in force and surround the Decepticons. Optimus informed Megatron that he could either leave the planet peacefully or be destroyed. Once the rest of the Decepticons fled, Megatron delivered a final threat before taking off. Prime celebrated with another speech, before admiring the huge Autobot [[insignia]] Bumblebee had stomped into the ground. {{storylink|Decepticons Attack}}
{{-}}

===Transformers Annual 2011===
During NEST's global hunt for Decepticons in the time period between the battle of Mission City and The Fallen's attack on Earth, an alert of Decepticon activity in [[Tokyo]] sent Optimus, Ironhide, Ratchet and Sideswipe to investigate. Prime intervened in Sideswipe and Barricade's battle to lift the Decepticon into the air, only to find himself under attack by Grindor. Ordering Sideswipe and Ratchet to cover him, Optimus scaled the side of a nearby office block so he could punch the helicopter out of the air. Standing over the two Decepticons, Optimus was surprised when they informed him that they were simply providing a diversion. Optimus realised that Sam was in danger, and rushed back to America in time to find Starscream attempting to abduct the boy. He jumped on Starscream's back, causing the Decepticon to flee and saving Sam from a kidnapping. {{storylink|Sam in Danger}}

===''I Can Read!'' books===
[[File:OptimusandIronhide-TrainingDay.jpeg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
Optimus met up with Ironhide, Sideswipe and Bumblebee in a desert to train. He and Ironhide tackled a rough off-road trail, only for their training to be interrupted by a nearby dam bursting open. The two Autobots sealed up the dam using rocks from a nearby quarry. They met back up with Bumblebee and Sideswipe afterwards, who admitted to have encountered their own "natural disaster." The source of the disturbances soon revealed itself to be Megatron and Starscream tunneling underground. Though the two Decepticons attempted to ambush the Autobots, Optimus and the others were able to send them running thanks to the training they had gone through that day. {{storylink|Training Day (book)|Training Day}}

[[File:OptimusKOsStarscream-BuddyBrawl.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.4|And that's terrible]]
Optimus came upon Starscream attacking Sam and Mikaela, while Bumblebee and Wheelie argued with one another nearby on how to defeat the Decepticon. Optimus knocked out Starscream with a single punch before chastising both his subordinates for allowing their feelings get in the way of their mission to protect the humans. Sam and Mikaela attempted to have Wheelie and Bumblebee reconcile, but the two Autobots were too stubborn to apologize to one another. Optimus suggested that the humans give Bumblebee and Wheelie time to work things out. But Starscream suddenly regained consciousness, prompting Optimus to order Wheelie and Bumblebee to work together to defeat him while he protected the humans. The two Autobots managed to put their differences aside and accomplished their task. Optimus looked on with pride as the two friends thanked each other afterwards. {{storylink|Buddy Brawl}}
{{-}}

===''Hunt for the Decepticons'' storybooks===
[[File:OptimusgetsSamsmessage-PrimeTarget.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Optimus "likes" Sam's status before going back to looking at cat videos.]]
Optimus had assigned Skids and Mudflap to watch over Sam while Bumblebee was away on a mission. When he asked the Twins for their report on the situation, they informed him that they suspected the [[new lab assistant]] working at Sam's university to be a Decepticon spy. Optimus ordered the two Autobots to continue their vigil over Sam. The Twins' hunch turned out to be correct, and the Decepticon spy sent Optimus a false distress signal through Sam's computer. Optimus sped to meet Sam at his university, where he encountered Megatron. Using a supermagnet within the university lab, Megatron was able to lock Optimus in his vehicle mode. Megatron would have destroyed Optimus if not for Sam's timely intervention. Sam used the supermagnet on Megatron, allowing Optimus to escape, and get repaired by Ratchet. {{storylink|Prime Target (book)|Prime Target}}

[[File:AutobotsthankSam-SatelliteMeltdown.jpeg|thumb|left|upright=1.1|May I ''please'' take your face?]]
Optimus received word from human authorities that [[Buzzsaw (ROTF)|Buzzsaw]] and [[Ratbat (ROTF)|Ratbat]] were causing trouble. But thanks to Soundwave's tampering with communications, he and his Autobots wound up driving to an empty warehouse miles away instead of the location of the conflict. Upon arriving at the warehouse, Optimus and his troops quickly realized that they had been tricked. Thankfull, Sam and Bumblebee met them there, and led them to the correct location. Optimus took care of both Decepticons by himself, sending them fleeing. Optimus then met with the human military, and informed them of Soundwave in Earth orbit. Together, they managed to have the satellite to which Soundwave was attached to self-destruct, sending the Decepticon tumbling off into outer space. Sam later thanked Sam for his help in the mission. {{storylink|Satellite Meltdown}}
{{-}}

===''Spot the 'Bots''===
While on a mission to find Decepticons, Optimus found Megatron hiding behind a tree. Megatron tried to scamper away, but Optimus and his Autobots gave chase. A small group of both factions then met at an old warehouse, and they began to duke it out for the fate of the Earth! {{storylink|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen Spot the 'Bots}}
{{-}}

===''Unite for the Universe''===
[[File:Project Unite.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5]]
In the wake of The Fallen's defeat, NEST initiated [[Project Unite]] to find a way of modifying Jetfire's parts so that Optimus could use them again. Unaware of the project's objective, but knowing that it held a great power, Starscream attacked the Unite facility to try stealing its fruits for himself, only to find a successfully powered-up Optimus Prime ready and waiting to take him on. {{storylink|Unite for the Universe issue 1|The Secret of Project: Unite}} Starscream fled, but immediately began plotting on how he could take Optimus's new power for himself. {{storylink|Unite for the Universe issue 1|Ambition Instigated}}

When word came in of another Starscream sighting on the [[Greece|Greek]] island of Delos, Optimus used his new abilities to fly there personally, where Sideswipe briefed him on what the Autobots had deduced: Starscream had managed to replicate the Unite process using the bodies of dead Decepticons, and was making a play for power. Knowing that Starscream did not have the necessary neural interface protocols to handle the Unite upgrade and would soon be driven mad, Optimus led the Autobots in tracking him to [[Taipei]], [[Taiwan]] for a confrontation... only for Megatron himself to show up, also dedicated to bring Starscream to heel! {{storylink|Unite for the Universe issue 2|On the Road of Destruction}} Tempting as it was to stand back and watch Megatron and Starscream duke it out, Optimus could not risk the Unite technology falling into Megatron's hands, and soon interceded in the Decepticons' battle. While Optimus kept Megatron busy, Ratchet hit Starscream with a scrambler weapon that burned out Starscream's new cyber-genetic sequencing, rending the Unite tech useless; Megatron departed, vowing vengeance. Optimus sadly reflected that in striving to create new and better weapons, the Autobots had almost handed the Decepticons victory, and swore that fortitude and valour would be the only weapons he relied on henceforth. {{storylink|The Strongest Weapon}}
{{-}}

===The Creation Revoltech!===
[[File:The Creation Revoltech.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|From about this point on, things get progressively sillier. You've been warned.]]
At the mercy of Megatron and the powerful [[Revocube]], Optimus Prime, at Ratchet's urging, called upon the power of the [[Revoltech]] universal joint. As the Wreckers watched, Prime surged with energy—and guns!—and prepared to renew the fight. {{storylink|The Creation Revoltech!}}
{{-}}

===''How to Ride Your Dinobot''===
====Cartoon====
[[File:Htryd-chapter-2-optimus-grimlock.jpg|upright=1.8|thumb|We all did this with our toys as kids. Now Optimus hates us for it.]]
Optimus found trying to ride [[Grimlock (AOE)|Grimlock]] was far from an easy task, which wasn't helped by his notably impatient attitude. First, Grimlock flung him into a wall when he first tried to get him to move. After [[Humanization|receiving a cast on his leg]] following the incident, he again lost his patience when trying to get his steed to move. However, it was all for naught, as now it was time for Grimlock to ride on Optimus's shoulders. Optimus could only groan in pain as he carried the massive Dinobot around, who was having a much better day than he was. {{storylink|How to Ride Your Dinobot Chapter 2: How to Ride|How to Ride}}

====Comic====
[[File:HowtoRide prime is an expert.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.5]]
Intending to teach his Autobots the fine art of Dinobot-riding, Optimus Prime led his men through a Chinese forest to the Dinobots' stomping ground—though he refrained from ''telling'' the Autobots where he was taking them, so they couldn't say no! Hound and Bumblebee had little luck taming [[Slash (AOE)|Slash]] and [[Strafe (AOE)|Strafe]], but when Drift and Crosshairs managed to saddle up atop [[Slug (AOE)|Slug]] and [[Scorn]], Optimus cautioned them against overconfidence, but suggested they try practising combat scenario. It did not go well. Bruised and tired, Hound pointed out that Optimus hadn't done any riding, but Optimus professed that he didn't ''need'' to, since he was already an expert. Grimlock evidently didn't get the message, as he flipped the unsuspecting Optimus onto his back, then took off running. Optimus called to the Autobots that Grimlock had picked up the scent of Decepticons, and instructed them all to RIDE OUT! {{storylink|How to Ride a Dinobot!}}
{{-}}

===Yokohama Decepticon Secret Base===
[[File:YokohamaBase movie primes vs nemesis.jpg|thumb|upright=0.75]]
''Two'' versions of Optimus Prime were hanging out at the [[Transformers Expo]] in [[Yokohama]] at the same time—one in his original Earth body, the other in his ''Age of Extinction'' form—when the evil clone of a ''different'' Optimus Prime, [[Yokohama Convoy|Nemesis Prime]], came crashing into the building. The Primes attacked him alongside Bumblebee, at which point Nemesis was backed up by some of the other Expo attendees: a ''second'' [[Nemesis Prime (AOE)|Nemesis Prime]] (this one Optimus's ''own'' evil duplicate) and [[Nemesis Grimlock]]! They glared at each other a bit, until suddenly, the combined energies of the AllSpark, the Matrix of Leadership and the [[seed]]—all on display at the Expo, naturally—began reacting with the [[Dark Energon]] within the first Nemesis Prime. This was all part of a complicated plot by [[Unicron]], but fortunately, Nemesis resisted the dark urges within himself, and channelled all the Dark Energon into the stickers his creator [[Doctor Arkeville]] had used to make him evil. Nemesis ripped the stickers off and hurled them into the air, where all the Autobots and Decepticons—and even the Expo's human attendees, using their cell phones—blasted them and stopped the chain reaction.

It was a ''super'' weird day. {{storylink|Yokohama Decepticon Secret Base}}
{{-}}

===''Cheetos/Age of Extinction'' comic===
[[File:CheetosAOE optimusprime.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8]]
Discovering that the Decepticons were increasing their strength through artifacts from the [[Cheetos (galaxy)|Cheetos galaxy]], Optimus Prime and the Autobots recruited [[you]]r help to acquire the power-enhancing objects. {{storylink|Cheetos/Transformers: Age of Extinction}}
{{-}}

===''Q-Transformers'' cartoon===
{{voiceactor|[[Yoshimasa Hosoya]] (Japanese)}}
[[File:QTransformers the cast.jpg|thumb|upright=2]]
In this world, Optimus Prime, Bumblebee and Lockdown were aware that they were toys: specifically, ''Q-Transformers'', a new line of cute-looking ''Transformers'' merchandise produced to tie-in with the 30th anniversary of the [[Transformers brand|''Transformers'' brand]]. Optimus sometimes changed his look to match other Optimus Prime toys, but his "default" form was that of a toy based on his ''Age of Extinction'' look. They hanged out at different famous service areas on Japanese expressways, and talked about the ''[[Transformers: Mystery of Convoy|Mystery of Convoy]]'' video game, and the remake produced as a tie-in with their toyline, ''[[Q-Transformers: Mystery of Convoy Returns (mobile game)|Mystery of Convoy Returns]]''.

Discussing the ins and outs of their cute designs, Optimus and his pals explained that they were created for the purpose of appealing to non-Transformers fans; Optimus suggested plush Transformers could be another way of tapping that market. {{storylink|Mystery of the 30th Anniversary Merchandise}} When the trio talked about and how terrible ''Mystery of Convoy'' was, Optimus huffed, insisting that, at the very least, it wasn't ''unbeatable''. Discussing traits that they thought made games bad, Optimus voiced a dislike for games without different difficulty settings. {{storylink|Mystery of Reliably Crappy Games}}

[[File:Qtransformers optimus on underwear.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.8|See? We weren't lying.]]
Lockdown suggested that re-releasing such a terrible game was like rubbing salt in a wound; Bumblebee didn't understand the expression, since, as Optimus pointed out, they were robots, and it didn't mean anything to them. While trying to come up with situations the phrase was applicable to, Lockdown suggested "accidentally sending your father an "I love you" text instead of your boyfriend or girlfriend"; the trio joked about what sort of response the father would send, and Optimus silenced everyone with the thoughtful answer: "I know". {{storylink|Mystery of Smearing Salt in the Open Wound}} The group then talked about the rubbish stage bosses in ''Mystery of Convoy'', particularly the [[Destron Mark|floating Decepticon insignia]], and wondered what sort of fictional scenarios it could be used in. {{storylink|Mystery of the Stage Bosses}}

[[File:Qtransformers optimus on psychics.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8]]
Prime and company began being joined by their friends to discuss facets of the game. [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] participated in a talk about the differences between the original and the remake, {{storylink|Mystery of the Wittily Similar Circumstances}} while [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] highlighted the tonal "gap" between the cute character designs and the very ''un''-cute action in the game. Everyone tried to think of examples of similar "gaps": Optimus suggested a stylish young dude wearing unfashionable underwear, and started sweating when everyone laughed. {{storylink|Mystery of the Gap of Unpopular Men}} [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] and [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] joined them to talk about classic terrible games, which turned into a discussion about adventure and exploring, and the comforts an explorer might like to have with them on such a journey. {{storylink|Mystery of a Certain Explorer}} [[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]] and [[Smokescreen (G1)|Smokescreen]] also talked about some famously awful old games, seguing into a discussion about psychokinetic powers; Optimus remembered seeing a guy on TV who had the power to magnetize cutlery to his body. {{storylink|Mystery of a Certain Psychic}}

[[File:Qtransformers gtoptimus copenbee.jpg|left|thumb|upright=2]]
When [[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]] came along to share his thoughts on points of commonality among famously awful games, the group talked about the technical advancements of video games, but when Optimus wanted to talk about motion capture technology, he got confused and mixed it up with a CAT scan! {{storylink|Mystery of Game Balance}} [[Red Alert (G1)|Red Alert]] also had some opinions on the common themes of bad games, but Bumblebee and Optimus's willingness to settle for less frustrated Lockdown. {{storylink|Mystery of the Lowest Possible Standards}}

[[File:Qtransformers g1 convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.8|Only you, could prevent wild fires.]]
Optimus had changed his look to match that of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#GTR|his ''Transformers GT'' incarnation]] when [[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] dropped in. They talked about the changing faces of Optimus Prime through history, and how he used to be called "Convoy" in Japan, then Lockdown compared "Optimus Prime" and "Convoy" to the Mario Brothers. Everyone had a good chuckle when Jazz specified that Optimus would be the "Luigi" of the pair. {{storylink|Mystery of Convoy}} Bumblebee later told [[Hot Rod (G1)|Hot Rod]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] about Optimus's fondness for ''Mystery of Convoy''. {{storylink|Mystery of Mystery of Convoy}}

When [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] turned up to join the argument over just how bad ''Mystery of Convoy'' was, the shocked Optimus quickly switched bodies, taking on the form of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|his Generation 1 self]]. They argued back and forth for a bit, discussing other ways the game could have been remade, until Optimus proposed the most drastic rebranding he could think of: calling it "Mysteryvoy of Con". {{storylink|Mystery of Return of Convoy}}

Tiring of talking about ''Mystery of Convoy'', Optimus noted the unexpected popularity of ''Q-Transformers'' itself and steered the towards other ways to reach a wider audience for ''Transformers''. His own suggestion was to make the franchise more like ''[[w:Mito Kōmon|Mito Kōmon]]''. {{storylink|The Road to Winning a New Fanbase}} The three decided to go over previous ''Transformers'' series to make sure they'd stay within established rules, but Optimus and Bumblebee immediately ran into an argument with Lockdown when they refused to acknowledge anything bad about [[The Transformers (cartoon)|the original cartoon]]. Lockdown argued that it was hard to tell the difference between Autobots and Decepticons, so the three discussed ways of making it more obvious. {{storylink|The Road to Easy Identification}}

Introducing a new "Q-Transformers Radio" segment, the trio invited Tracks to talk about popularity, and he brought along [[Yukimura Sanada]] from ''[[w:Sengoku Basara|Sengoku Basara]]''. After interviewing their guest on his franchise of origin, they struck upon the idea of having Transformers appear in ''Basara'' games, and Optimus failed to impress by imagining his in-game super move would be a car horn. {{storylink|The Road to Borrowing Popularity from Sengoku Basara}}
{{-}}

===Legends World===
[[File:TFLegends optimus rides grimlock.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.2]]
In the [[Legends World]], Optimus Prime was just a fictional character featured in a series of popular movies and toylines. When the newest film, ''Age of Extinction'' came out, [[Rattrap (BW)|Rattrap]] and the other employees of the [[Axalon Trading Company]] went crazy for the new toys. [[Silverbolt (Fuzor)|Silverbolt]] got the Leader-class figure, {{storylink|TF4 Toy Party#Part 1|TF4 Toy Party Part 1}} while [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]], being more of a fan of the Generation 1 series, instead opted for the "Evasion Mode" figure, with its Generation 1-inspired alternate mode. He was disgusted to discover that such a classic, '80s-looking toy transformed into Optimus's movie-based robot mode design, and was even more put out when Silverbolt had the figure ride the new Grimlock toy. {{storylink|TF4 Toy Party#Part 2|TF4 Toy Party Part 2}}

A new Optimus Prime toy was on show when the Axalon gang went to the 2014 Tokyo Toy Show during the summer. {{storylink|Tokyo Toy Show 2014 Report#Part 2|Tokyo Toy Show 2014 Report Part 2}} Six months later, [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] spent [[Christmas]] enjoying Prime's exploits in the new ''Age of Extinction'' DVD. {{storylink|Merry X'mas!!}} When Rhinox turned into [[Tankor (BM)|Tankor]] and tried to revert the world back to how it was in the '80s, Rattrap attempted to stop him by singing the praises of modern-day Transformers, including the movie incarnation of Optimus. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 5|Bonus Edition Vol. 5}}

When [[Sky-Byte (RID)|Gelshark]] arrived in the Legends World and found that "Optimus Prime" was the English name of his enemy, [[Optimus Prime (RID)|Fire Convoy]], he sought to ruin his reputation by dressing up as the ''Age of Extinction'' version of the character. The masses of adoring young fans that showed up made Gelshark unable to bring himself to crush their dreams. {{Storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 6|Bonus Edition Vol. 6}}

At [[Tokyo Toy Show|Tokyo Toy Show 2015]], [[Scourge (RID)|Black Convoy]] appeared and took down somebody in an Optimus Prime costume. {{storylink|Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. EX (Black Convoy)|Bonus Edition Vol. EX}}
{{-}}

===Bot on the Street===
Optimus was asked if Frenzy was red or blue, but as far as he was concerned, [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]] was silver. {{storylink|Bot on the Street}}

===''Timelines''===
In one reality, Megatron suddenly shifted position during the Battle of Chicago and thus took advantage of his mysteriously good luck to kill both Optimus Prime and Sentinel Prime. Eventually, though, a new Prime arose, [[Hot Rod (DOTM)|Rodimus Prime]]. {{storylink|Megatron (Movie)/toys#Timelines|BotCon 2015 Megatron profile card}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
In [[Tyran 609.23-PX Kappa]], Megatron defeated [[The Fallen]] and returned to space to gather the Decepticon army, beginning new engagements which sent the Autobots on the defensive. Optimus Prime rose to the bait planted by Soundwave for Sam Witwicky and took the ''[[Xantium (DOTM)|Xantium]]'' to the Moon to revive [[Sentinel Prime (ROTF)|Sentinel Prime]]. Backed into a corner by the Decepticon offensive, Optimus revived Sentinel on the lunar surface, and Sentinel helped Megatron capture Optimus. The Decepticons gained control of Earth and brought Cybertron to Earth orbit. Sentinel spent time unsuccessfully trying to turn Optimus over to his way of thinking.

Everything changed with the arrival of [[Lockdown (ROTF)|Lockdown]] to Decepticon-controlled Earth. The bounty hunter demanded that Optimus be handed over to him; Megatron refused out of pride while Sentinel refused out of loyalty. While Sentinel debated over Lockdown's offer of a protomatter [[seed]], Optimus used the opportunity to reignite Sentinel's cold spark. Sentinel thus tricked Lockdown to seize control of [[Knight Ship|Lockdown's ship]]. Allying themselves with the [[Dinobot (AOE)|Dinobot]]s, Optimus and Sentinel waged a long guerrilla war against the Decepticons. After the long struggle, they managed to liberate Earth and revitalize Cybertron with the seed. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime, 2015/07/22}}

In [[Tyran 511.0 Kappa]], once [[Cade Yeager]] had revived Optimus Prime, Optimus put out the call to all surviving Autobots. Bumblebee, [[Bulkhead (DOTM)|Bulkhead]], and [[Backtrack (Movie)|Backtrack]] joined...and so did the desperate Decepticons [[Axor|Axel]] and [[Wild Rider]]! The Autobots were initially skeptical of them but learned to appreciate Wild Rider, who remained loyal even in the face of Megatron's return as Galvatron. Axel on the other hand attempted to sell out the Autobots to Lockdown only to be killed by Lockdown. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime, 2015/09/16}}

===''Age of Time''===
[[File:Prime1StudioSuperiorOptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|300px]]
Like at least some of the other Transformers of his dimension, Optimus Prime was somehow amalgamated with his [[Optimus Prime (G1)#Age of Time|counterpart]] from an [[The Transformers (franchise)|alternate dimension]], who came to this dimension through a wormhole; together, they formed a superior version of themselves.<ref>[https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1395741837139121.1073741971.371066602939988 TRANSFORMERS: AGE OF TIME - SUPERIOR OPTIMUS PRIME] by [[Prime 1 Studio]] on Facebook: "The story began when the Ark carrying G1 Optimus Prime and his fellow Autobots was attacked on their route to Earth from Cybertron by Megatron and his evil Decepticons. Both spaceships were sucked into a wormhole and ended up in an alternate dimension. This dimension is the cinematic Transformers universe. Different yet the same, both transformers from the different dimension amalgamated and formed the Superior version of their old self. Hence the New Generation Transformers was formed. To be continued..."</ref> {{storylink|Optimus Prime (Movie)/merchandise#Prime 1 Studio|Transformers: Age of Time statue bios}}

===''Mission to Cybertron'' comic===
While searching for the Creator, Optimus arrived on [[Paradron]] to refuel on Energon, but was denied by a [[Gyronian Sentry]] and his pet Guard Cats. Optimus explained his past to the Sentry, who was not impressed, demanding a passcode. The passcode was written in Old Cybertronian, but the gate didn't open even with a decoder. Prime and Sentry's egos clashed, causing a fight to break out. Optimus tried directly inserting the decoder into the door, with the passcode: "In Primus We Trust". The door opened, allowing Optimus to drink half of the Energon, giving the other half to Sentry. Optimus told Sentry he did a good job, relieved him of his guard duties, and flew off into space.
{{storylink|Mission to Cybertron}}
{{-}}

===Gathering of the Strongest Robots DVD===
{{storylink|Gathering of the Strongest Robots}}

===''Bumblebee's First Life on Earth''===
[[File:TF-BB-Movie-Bumblebee's-First-Life-Episode-2.jpg|thumb|250px]]
A hologram of Optimus Prime made a brief appearance when [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] was learning how to transform, prompting Bumblebee's human friend [[Charlie Watson|Charlie]] to wonder who he was. {{storylink|Hiding in the Park!}}
{{-}}

==Games==
{{main|Optimus Prime (Movie)/games}}

==Commercial appearances==
*As part of the hype buildup to the first movie's release, Optimus Prime made a brief cameo at the {{w|2007 MTV Movie Awards}}, interacting with host Sarah Silverman. The scene spliced Silverman into pre-existing movie footage, but featured new dialogue recorded for the event by Peter Cullen. Prime heavily hinted that he wanted to present an award, but was rejected for a regular MTV fan.
*According to a tie-in advertisement for [[Burger King]], Prime likes his Whoppers with no onions, no cheese, extra pickles, with a side of ????. However, due to a cruel twist of fate, he can never enjoy the sweet taste of beefy victory (and all because he needed a driver for him to receive his order). He saved the world from the Decepticons, and still he can't even have it his way? Where's the justice? {{storylink|Commercial/Transformers (2007)#Burger King|Transformers Burger King tie-in commercial}}
*Optimus fell on some guy's car, smashing it to scrap. The car's owner was rather upset about this development, but Optimus could only respond with "My bad..." {{storylink|Commercial/Transformers (2007)#General Motors|Transformers Chevy tie-in commercial}}
*Optimus Prime (in truck mode) made an appearance at [[BotCon 2007]], alongside the [[Sector Seven Mobile Command Unit]]. He was available for pictures all weekend. He made a second appearance at [[BotCon 2009]].
*Optimus was convinced that a man's new LG Versa was really a Decepticon in disguise. The phone's owner vehemently denied this, despite the phone demonstrating transformation capabilities. He laughed off Optimus's apparent fixation with Decepticons...until one dropped down behind him, sending him running. {{storylink|Commercial/Revenge of the Fallen#LG Versa|Revenge of the Fallen LG Versa tie-in commercial}}
*Optimus was tasked with delivering trailers of Strawberry and Peanut Butter [[M&M's]]. Instead of hauling them in his truck mode, he picked one up and threw it into the distance, clipping some power lines in the process. This earned him some sarcastic clapping from [[Red (M&M)|Red]]. {{storylink|Commercial/Revenge of the Fallen#M&Ms|Revenge of the Fallen M&Ms tie-in commercial}}
*Optimus was seen sporting an [[Robot Powered Machines|RPMs]] logo as a grill ornament. {{storylink|Commercial/Revenge of the Fallen#RPMs|Robot Powered Machines toy commercial}}
*During the 2009 NBA Finals, a commercial aired where [[The Master Builders (episode)|Optimus made a slam dunk]] and shattered the backboard.
*On [[July 6]], 2009, Optimus appeared on ''The {{w|Late Show With David Letterman}}'' to declare the "Top Ten Things That Sound Cool When Said By A Giant Robot". Optimus said it was nice to be there, although David was ''clearly'' concerned with having a 28-foot tall robot in the studio because of a bad history of robots messing up the place, and during the presentation Letterman decided there was something about Prime he didn't like. Anyway, the top ten was:
<ol>
<li value="10">"Jergens lotion leaves my hands silky smooth."</li>
<li value="9">"Do you have these khakis in a Size 114?"</li>
<li value="8">"My perfect night involves a pint of Häagen-Dazs and season three of ''Sex and the City''."</li>
<li value="7">"Man, do I love me some 'taters."</li>
<li value="6">"It was so hot in Central Park today, I saw a squirrel rubbing sunblock on his nuts."</li>
<li value="5">"You seemed a little pitchy, dawg."</li>
<li value="4">"Brody Jenner has added you as a friend on Facebook."</li>
<li value="3">"Live from New York...it's Saturday night!"</li>
<li value="2">"My parents wanted me to be a Rabbi."</li>
<li value="1">"All the slammin' shorties in the house say 'Yeah'!"<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v-P5x1Mp00 Archive video of Optimus's guest spot.]</ref></li>
</ol>
*To promote the DVD and Blu-ray release of ''Revenge of the Fallen'', Paramount set up a website where US fans could request Optimus call up their friends, warning them of Starscream's attempts to recruit human civilian allies.
*In the Discovery Channel promo, "The World Is Just Awesome," Optimus made a brief cameo, singing the words "boom-de-ya-da, boom-de-ya-da."<ref>[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0jZzBEKIMc Discovery commercial] on YouTube.</ref>
*Prime (voiced by Cullen, but not animated by ILM) appeared to promote a NASA competition to vote for videos made by children about NASA's impact on commonplace technology.<ref>[http://ipp.gsfc.nasa.gov/optimus/ NASA Optimus Prime]</ref>
*Optimus appeared in truck mode at [[Toy Fair 2011]]. He got a $115 parking ticket.<ref>[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357327/Transformers-truck-gets-parking-ticket-toy-fair.html ''Daily Mail'' article on Prime's fine.]</ref>
*Optimus duked it out with [[Shockwave (Movie)|Shockwave]] in front of a [[Burger King]] restaurant, while some of the patrons inside were too enraptured with savoring their Bacon Cheddar Ranch Tendercrisp sandwiches to notice. {{storylink|Commercial/Dark of the Moon#Burger King|Dark of the Moon Burger King tie-in commercial}}
*Optimus was seen firing a [[basketball]] from his blaster in an ESPN commercial with [[Mark Cuban]]. {{storylink|Commercial/Dark of the Moon#Burger King|Dark of the Moon ESPN commercial}}
*Optimus Prime joined Bumblebee on the road as part of the "[[Win A Ride To School With The Autobots]]" contest. He also delivered $1000 worth of Transformers toys to a lucky winner. {{storylink|Commercial/Dark of the Moon#Win A Ride|Win A Ride To School With The Autobots contest and commercial}}
*To promote Age Of Extinction, Optimus appeared on screen during the 2014 [[Nickelodeon]] Kids Choice Awards to warn Mark Wahlberg that he was in danger of being slimed.
*Both Optimus and Bumblebee could be seen driving around the [[Speed Stars]] logo in vehicle mode. {{storylink|Commercial#Speed Stars|Speed Stars commercials}}
*Optimus acted as goalkeeper as Diego Poyet, Gor Grigoryan and Patrick Otte practiced for the World Cup. After stopping a goal, he deflated the ball with his hand and commented that Diego was "Not bad... for a human." {{storylink|Commercial/Age of Extinction#ESPN|"The Future of Soccer" Age of Extinction tie-in commercial}}
*After Optimus was injured by a shot, a little boy come over to him and offered him an Oreo cookie. The generous act somehow gave Optimus the strength to go on, and he thanked the child before running off to do whatever heroic thing he was in the middle of. {{storylink|Commercial/Age of Extinction#Oreo|Age of Extinction Oreo tie-in commercial}}
*Optimus happened upon an excavation site, where several children were unearthing Grimlock. Soon after his arrival, Grimlock awakened, prompting Prime to hop on his back and order his mount to "Roll Out!" {{storylink|Commercial/Age of Extinction#Mega|Mega 1-Step Bumblebee toy commercial}}
*After helping some guy shave, Hydrobot immediately transformed to robot mode to fist bump Optimus, who destroyed the wall of the man's bathroom while trying to do so. Optimus then accidentally destroyed the man's daughter's personal playground, trying to use it as a stand. {{storylink|Commercial/The Last Knight#Schick|The Last Knight Schick commercial}}
*Optimus Prime's voice also narrated some commercials:
**A Revenge of the Fallen toy commercial for the figures of the main cast. {{storylink|Commercial/Revenge of the Fallen#Movie Characters|Revenge of the Fallen movie characters toy commercial}}
**A [[Power Bots]] and [[Gravity Bot]]s toy commercial. {{storylink|Commercial/Revenge of the Fallen#Power Bots and Gravity Bots|Power Bots and Gravity Bots toy commercial}}
**The Bumblebee Voice Mixer and Plasma Cannon toy commercial. {{storylink|Commercial/Revenge of the Fallen#Voice Mixer and Plasma Cannon|Bumblebee Voice Mixer and Plasma Cannon commercial}}
**An ad for the Supreme [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]] set. {{storylink|Commercial/Revenge of the Fallen#Supreme Devastator|Supreme Devastator commercial}}
**The N.E.S.T. Global Alliance figures. {{storylink|Commercial/Revenge of the Fallen#Global Alliance|N.E.S.T. Global Alliance toy commercial}}
**The Double Your Action Giveaway ad. {{storylink|Commercial/Revenge of the Fallen#Double|Double Your Action Giveaway commercial}}
*During his time off, Optimus went on a road trip across the UK with a hitchhiker. {{storylink|Commercial/International#Live Action Movie Era|Direct Line commercial}}

==Toys==
{{main|Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys}}

==Merchandise==
{{Main|Optimus Prime (Movie)/merchandise}}

==Notes==
===''Transformers''===
[[File:Movie Primetruck before.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb|8:30 pm: "Trick My Truck". Tonight's guest: [[Alpha Trion (disambiguation)|Alpha Trion]].]]
[[File:Movie OptimusPrime truckrear.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb]]
[[File:Movie Prime Trucklogomistake.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb|In the darkness, a PA will misread "Truck A" as "Truck B", and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth — Revelation 11:7.]]
[[File:MBMovieOptimusAttacks.jpg|thumb|upright=0.85]]
*When Optimus's design was first revealed, [[GEEWUN|many fans of the Generation 1 series objected to the flames seen on Prime's body]]. When asked in an interview why he put the flames on, [[Michael Bay]] claimed he liked them because it was "cool". It was later revealed on a special featurette on the DVD that the flames were added because, apparently, red is not very good to film on camera, so Bay chose a blue truck but used the flames so that when Optimus transformed, the layout would result in maintaining his iconic red chest.
*In the director's commentary of the 2007 Transformers DVD, Michael Bay said that he had told the animators to seek inspiration from Liam Neeson in creating Optimus Prime's body language. ''Awesome.''
*Optimus Prime's truck mode is apparently intended to haul a flatbed trailer, based on the presence of the large silver "headache rack", a piece of optional equipment that protects the driver in case a flatbed load breaks free during braking. It is generally not installed on trucks hauling enclosed container trailers.
*[[TakaraTomy]] officially recognizes Optimus Prime's [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]] as a Kenworth W900 truck, even though the vehicle used for filming was a modified Peterbilt 379, a different model from a different brand, although both are made by the PACCAR company.<ref>[http://web.archive.org/web/20070809065140/http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=121424 Article at Edmunds.com on some of the vehicles used in the movie]</ref>
*When Optimus Prime scans a truck for his new body, the passing truck has what appears to be an Autobot sigil on its grill, but the actual truck that Prime turns into at the end of the scene has a much wider, flatter symbol on the grill, which looks rather more like that of Peterbilt. Then, Prime has an Autobot sigil on his grill while driving to meet the other Autobots.
*According to the free trading cards from the Boston Globe, Optimus is 28 feet tall, weighs 4.3 metric tons, and his primary weapon is an [[ion blaster]]. (Considering Optimus's height, however, this weight would seem implausible. It's also roughly half of the actual weight of the truck he's based on.)
*The [[Milton Bradley]] [[Transformers Battling Card Game]] depicts Prime with a unique magnetic grapple attack, fired from the side of his arm. It also declares his forearm gun to be a chain gun (it's an ion blaster in other sources), and has him using a "judo kick", which... while it may not be out of the realm of plausibility for Prime to have learned an Earth martial art, judo does not actually '''use''' kicks, being focused on throwing moves. Oops.
*The Optimus Prime computer generated model consisted of 10,108 individual parts, 1,830,898 polygons, 27,744 rig nodes, and 2336 texture maps. The volume of all pieces combined came to 5445 cubic feet.<ref>Robertson, Barbara (2007). Heavy Metal. ''Computer Graphics, 30''(7), 12-17.</ref>
*The [[Transformers Autobots/Decepticons|''Autobots'' DS game]] notes that Megatron killed Optimus's father. Considering several pieces of movie tie-in fiction treat Optimus and Megatron as brothers, it's entirely possible that he killed his ''own'' father too. ''Dark of the Moon'' may have unintentionally (given the obscurity of the four-year-old tie-in game) retconned this, as Optimus believed [[Sentinel Prime (ROTF)|Sentinel Prime]], the mentor figure to both of them, had perished during a Decepticon attack as he tried to escape from Cybertron.
*During Optimus Prime's transformation from vehicle into robot in Mission City, a piece of Chevrolet intake manifold can be seen on Optimus Prime's left collar.
* After he left the screen following ''Dark of the Moon'' and returned with a new form, the truck was sold at the Barret Jackson Auction in 2016 for $110,000. Another prop was kept around for attraction purposes, while another sold prop was converted into a tow truck.
{{--}}

===Other films===
[[File:ROTF Optimus trailer super mode.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|"One shall be scrawny...One shall be brawny"]]
*Optimus was supposed to combine with a trailer for ''Revenge of the Fallen'', something for which [[Ben Procter]] and [[Josh Nizzi]] drew up designs. In the end, Nizzi designed the combination with Jetfire. However, the idea of Optimus combining with his trailer was not forgotten, and showed up on screen in ''Dark of the Moon''.
*In ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Dark of the Moon]]'', Optimus has ''[[Kibble#.22Faux-parts.22|Faux-parts]]'', when he transforms inside of the NEST base facing [[Charlotte Mearing|Mearing]] and [[William Lennox|Lennox]]. It is noticeable that the Optimus robot truck parts are not the same as that of the actual truck mode body parts (or at least not all of them). Notice the red chest panels are in fact hidden under the truck nose panels and his arm appears (God knows from where) already with its red/blue flames parts; meanwhile the rest of the front of the vehicle fragments and hides into the robot. This is the only Optimus transformation that occurs this way. In the other in-movie conversions some of his alternate mode's appearances seem to be absorbed into his body or outright disappear.
[[File:AOEOptimusComparison.jpg|thumb|upright=1.95|Fear is freedom! Subjugation is liberation! Contradiction is truth! Those are the facts of this world, and you will all surrender to them. You pigs in human clothing!|left]]
*The overwhelming majority of ''Age of Extinction'' toys and promotional images for Optimus, not to mention his RotDS in-game model, are based on a preliminary design for the character, not used in the final film. The differences are most noticeable on the chest, although there are minor design variations across pretty much the entire body. [[TakaraTomy]]'s later release schedule for their version of the line allowed them to somewhat remedy this situation – their Battle Command Optimus Prime toy appears to have had its chest and feet retooled before release to match the newer design, and their 'Armor Knight' re-release of the Leader Class toy features extensive retooling to similar effect.
*Optimus's "evasion mode" body possesses one of the more cheatsy transformation schemes in the series. Not only does Optimus manage to turn into a fairly small truck while retaining his normal [[robot mode]] height and mass, his windows and grille rather conspicuously change size whenever he transforms. The paint job is still Optimus Prime as in the first three films, but heavily saturated in brown rust.
[[File:BBfilm-Optimus-Prime-model.jpg|thumb|200px|Boxy and blocky is the new sexy.]]
*On [[September 30]], [[2014]], Optimus Prime was immortalized on the Hollywood Walk of Fame with a cement printing ceremony outside [[Grauman's Chinese Theatre]]. In lieu of hand prints, Optimus provided tire prints. [[Peter Cullen]] was also in attendance and provided handprints alongside his alter ego.
*The red "scar" on Optimus/Nemesis Prime's face in ''The Last Knight'' came about one day when Michael Bay went into [[Industrial Light & Magic|ILM]] and asked the animators to add red markings to Optimus Prime and Megatron's faces and come up with an explanation for them. Visual effects artist Chris Zammit came up with the idea that the markings were the use of [[Dark Energon]] due to its mind-control abilities and the presence of Unicron in the film.<ref name="MegatronScar">[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mke7biooPA4&ab_channel=TFcon The Explanation for Megatron's Red Face Paint in Transformers The Last Knight Discussion at TFcon]</ref>
**In an early version of the fight between Nemesis Prime and Bumblebee, a canister filled with normal [[Energon]] (much like the jars Izabella used on the TRF Sentinels) could have been tossed onto Nemesis Prime to release him from Quintessa's control.<ref name="MegatronScar" /> The idea was scrapped, leaving the red markings as some kind of "paint" and Bumblebee's voice used as the device to restore Optimus Prime.
*Optimus Prime's design in ''Bumblebee'' is heavily influenced by his Generation 1 [[Optimus Prime (G1)|namesake]], which is especially seen with his Earth-mode body. The truck used as Prime was actually a rental, but given a new coat of G1-influenced paint for the role.
*Optimus Prime was to have an extended role in the opening scene of ''Bumblebee'', having a Cybertronian vehicle mode, though it was cut for time. Concept art for a more Cybertronian robot mode and vehicle mode was created by [[Alex Jaeger]], though the film ultimately uses a model closer to his Earthen robot form.<ref>[https://www.ilm.com/art-department/bumblebee-developing-an-epic-set-piece/ BUMBLEBEE: DEVELOPING AN EPIC SET PIECE] at ILM</ref>
*Optimus Prime's right leg from the then yet-to-be-released ''Rise of the Beasts'' was featured in a Hasbro-sanctioned cameo in the 2022 direct-to-streaming film ''{{w|Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers (film)|Chip 'n Dale: Rescue Rangers}}''.<ref>[https://news.tfw2005.com/2022/05/20/possible-transformers-rise-of-the-beasts-cameo-on-the-new-chip-n-dale-rescue-rangers-movie-456697]</ref>
{{--}}

===Other notes===
*According to [[TakaraTomy]] marketing director [[Masahiko Yamazaki]], for the Japanese dub of ''[[Transformers Animated (cartoon)|Transformers Animated]]'', the [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]] featured in that show would become a young version of this one. Ultimately, this didn't make it into the end product as the show went largely unchanged.
*According to [[Steven Caple Jr.]] Optimus Prime's facial features are based on his voice actor Peter Cullen.<ref>[https://twitter.com/ROTBTrailer/status/1652158917588267009/photo/1]</ref>

===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Optimus Prime''' (オプティマスプライム ''Oputimasu Puraimu''), '''Nemesis Prime''' (ネメシスプライム ''Nemeshisu Puraimu''), '''Orion Pax''' (''Tribute'', オライオンパックス ''Oraion Pakkusu'')
*''Cantonese:'' '''O Baak Man''' (Hong Kong, 柯柏文)
*''Hungarian:'' '''Optimusz Fővezér''' ("Prime Leader Optimus"), '''Nemezis Fővezér'''
*''Indonesian:'' '''Optimus Prime''' ('''Sang Ketujuh''' ("The Seventh") (In Indonesian Optimus is known as the seventh Prime) or '''Pemimpin Para Autobot''' ("The Leader of the Autobots")
*''Korean:'' '''Optimus Prime''' (옵티머스 프라임 ''Obtimeoseu Peulaim''), '''Nemesis Prime''' (네메시스프라임 ''Nemesisu Peulaim'')
*''Mandarin:'' '''Kēbówén''' (Taiwan, 柯博文), '''Qíngtīanzhù''' (China, 擎天柱, "Pillar that Supports the Sky")
*''Ukrainian:'' '''Optimus Naikrashchiy''' (Оптимус Найкращий, "Optimus the Best")
{{--}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Autobot leaders]]
[[Category:Age of Extinction Autobots]]
[[Category:Beast Wars Autobots]]
[[Category:Bumblebee Autobots]]
[[Category:Classified Autobots]]
[[Category:Convention guests]]
[[Category:Cyber Missions characters]]
[[Category:Dark of the Moon Autobots]]
[[Category:Hall of Fame characters]]
[[Category:Knights]]
[[Category:Legends Autobots]]
[[Category:Live-action film ARG characters]]
[[Category:Matrix bearers]]
[[Category:Movie Autobots]]
[[Category:NEST]]
[[Category:Primes]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen Autobots]]
[[Category:Rise of the Beasts Autobots]]
[[Category:Rulers of Cybertron]]
[[Category:The Last Knight Autobots]]

Armored Weapons Platform

2023-08-31T16:17:20Z

SkywarpsTwin:

{{faction|autobotfilm}}
:''The Armored Weapons Platform is a kick-ass piece of hardware from the [[live-action film series]] continuity family.
[[File:DOTM optimus armored weapons platform.jpg|thumb|400px]]

[[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]]'s [[trailer]] can convert into an '''Armored Weapons Platform''' and stores the wearable, flight-capable '''Omega Combat Armor'''.

It's kinda awesome.

==Fiction==
===''Dark of the Moon'' film===
[[File:DOTM optimus with trailer.jpg|thumb|right|300px]]
Optimus Prime took his trailer with him on an investigative mission to the [[Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant]]. When [[Shockwave (Movie)|Shockwave]] and his [[Driller]] attacked, the trailer transformed into a weapons bay from which Prime retrieved an [[Dual Energon Swords|Energon Sword]] and a shield.

[[File:DOTM-Wreckers-Prime-Cables.jpg|thumb|left|upright=1.66|"Wreckers! Get the wire cutters!"]]
Optimus later took the trailer with him for the [[Autobot]]s' staged exile from [[Earth]], and then to the city of [[Chicago]], which had been fortified by the [[Decepticon]]s. As they rolled into the city, the Driller attacked once more, separating Prime from the trailer. Eventually, he was able to reach it, and equipped himself with the jetpack and large weapons stored inside. With the additional power granted by his jetpack, he punched through the Driller that was assaulting [[Sam Witwicky|Sam]], [[Carly Spencer|Carly]], [[Robert Epps|Epps]], and his soldiers, killing it. Enraged by the destruction of his pet, Shockwave shot at Optimus from the street and Optimus fell through a nearby unfinished building, with him and his jetpack getting caught up in the wires of a construction crane. The [[Wreckers]] eventually freed him.

[[File:DOTM-LongHaul.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.66|Optimus wants his own [[Igor|dismembered head assistant]].]]
Later, Optimus flew into battle against Shockwave and several Decepticons, producing guns and a sword before he discarded his jetpack. {{storylink|Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Dark of the Moon}}
{{-}}

==Games==
===''Transformers: Dark of the Moon - The Game''===
[[File:Dotmgame trailer.jpg|thumb|right|250px]]
====(Xbox 360/PS3)====
Optimus Prime took his trailer with him on the assault of the Decepticon base in [[Siberia]]. When he eventually found [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], Prime used the trailer to smash his opponent. The trailer then transformed into a weapons bay, from which Optimus retrieved a chainsaw, a shoulder-mounted rocket launcher, and four Energon Armor Field Generators. After the Field Generators were destroyed, this equipment then transformed into a flight pack. {{storylink|Transformers: Dark of the Moon (Xbox 360/PS3)|Dark of the Moon}}
===''Cyberverse Battle Builder''===
Optimus joined his Autobot troops in combating the Autobots on battlefields on Earth, the Earth's Moon and on Cybertron. Sometimes he was armed with the Armored Weapons Platform. {{storylink|Cyberverse Battle Builder}}
{{-}}

==Toys==
===''Dark of the Moon''===
====''Cyberverse''====
{{anchor|CyberverseActionSet}}
[[File:DOTM CyberverseActionSet OptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Optimus Prime / Armored Weapons Platform''' (Cyberverse Action Set, 2011)
**''Series:'' '''1'''
**''Number:'' '''004'''
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''CV12'''
**''Accessories:'' Missile, missile launcher, [[NEST]]
{{toydesigner|[[Joe Kyde]] (Hasbro)}}

:This flameless redeco of [[Cyberverse (toyline)|Cyberverse]] [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#CyberverseActionSet|Optimus Prime]] comes with a clip on trailer, sporting movie-style Autobot emblems, that can transform into a “Battle Base”/Strike Base and an “Assault Vehicle”/Mechanical Exosuit. Several Mech Tech ports are available on the trailer, and the removable missile launcher has handles for it to be held by smaller Cyberverse figures as well as a 5 mm post for it to attach to larger figures.

:The Battle Base [[stock photography|stock photo]]s and instructions oddly do not match. The stock photos show a different configuration, with the trailer panels facing forward and not being connected to the sides of the "turret". Also, the cannon itself is connected upside-down onto the turret base's hinge instead of being pegged right-side up onto the base's peg-hole, and the base of the turret is lowered enough that Optimus has to kneel to man the cannon. The picture seen to the right depicts the configuration of the instructions.

:Thanks to the fortuitous position of the base connectors on the trailer sides, said panels can connect for a pair of makeshift wings for the base if so desired.

:Like other action sets, Optimus Prime comes with a cardboard backdrop. In his case, it's the human-sized [[AllSpark]] containment room in [[Diego Garcia]], with three soldiers guarding said [[sacred treasure]]. With Optimus being dwarfed by the soldiers, it should not be necessary to mention that this is ''extremely'' out-of-[[scale]].

{{-}}
{{anchor|Battleinthemoonlight}}
[[File:DOTMBITMCVACOptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Almost ''Generation 2''!]]
*'''Battle in the Moonlight''' (Cyberverse multi-pack, 2011)
**''Accessories:'' Missile

:This [[Walmart]] exclusive set features a color-swapped [[redeco]] of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Battleinthemoonlight|Optimus Prime]], with his trailer in dark "night sky" themed colors. The trailer itself has starry night stickers running down the sides and red paint applications running along the top trailer edges.

:The set also includes redecoes of [[Ratchet (Movie)/toys#Battleinthemoonlight|Ratchet]] and [[Crankcase (DOTM)#Battleinthemoonlight|Crankcase]], as well as a large, badly photoshopped diorama featuring a photo of a daytime city with a night backdrop and a ruined Dodge Neon on the right side, complete with Dodge insignia.

:Not only does the [[stock photography]] show the trailer with an intentional defacement mark that does not appear on the retail release, the Battle Base is ''still'' depicted with the alternate configuration. Oops.

{{-}}

====Voyager Class toys====
{{anchor|VoyagerTrailer}}
[[File:TF-DOTM-DA-03-MechTech-Trailer.jpg|thumb|upright=3|Shockwave will be surprised if he finds out that the trailer is completely empty during his theft.]]
*'''Optimus Prime / MechTech Trailer''' (MechTech Voyager, [[May 14]], 2011)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''DA03'''
**''Accessories:'' MechTech Ion Blaster/Energy Blade, MechTech trailer

:This [[retool]] of Hasbro's Voyager [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#VoyagerTrailer|Optimus Prime toy]] includes his 'MechTech Trailer', which opens up much like the Generation 1 [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Optimus Prime]] toy's trailer (as well as being able to stand up to harken back to the Generation 1 [[Combat Deck (G1)|Combat Deck]]'s upright mode), and features a working landing gear. The trailer features storage for many MechTech weapons inside and out and is able to transport up to two Deluxe class Autobots. The circular panels that cover the ports are gravity-dependent. The trailer can also be flipped upside down to form some kind of a battle base.

:Unlike most MechTech ports included in the trailer, The sideways ports are slightly smaller and due to the fact that they are painted, most of the weapons can be slightly tight when attached to said ports. It's worse for the ones with painted hilts (notably the included Ion blaster), as they are prone to chipping if rotated when attached.

{{-}}

{{anchor|TritaniumPrime}}
[[File:DOTM Voyager LuckyDraw TritaniumOptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|He won't even find anything in this gold mine, either!]]
*'''Tritanium Optimus Prime''' (MechTech Voyager, 2011)
**''Accessories:'' MechTech Ion Blaster/Energy Blade, MechTech trailer

:This gold [[Vacuum metallizing|vacuum metallized]] version of Voyager class ''Dark of the Moon'' [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#TritaniumPrime|Optimus Prime]], including his MechTech Trailer, is a prize in [[TakaraTomy]]'s ''Dark of the Moon'' [[Lucky Draw figure|Lucky Draw]] campaign. To go into the entry for this toy, one needs to have entered all three ''Dark of the Moon'' campaigns (beginning on [[May 14]] 2011). This toy is limited to 100 pieces.

:Good luck mounting the 5 mm-compatible handles on the MechTech ports, as said ports are insanely tight due to being chromed.

{{-}}

====Ultimate====
{{anchor|UltimatePrime}}
[[File:DOTM UltimateOptimusPrime toy.jpg|thumb|300px]]
*'''Ultimate Optimus Prime''' (MechTech Ultimate, 2011)
**''Japanese ID number:''
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/Omega Combat Armor, MechTech Ultimax Super Cannon

:Coming with [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#UltimatePrime|a different Voyager-sized Optimus Prime]], this version of the trailer transforms into the colossal Omega Combat Armor, featuring nearly two feet of limb extensions, armor, and wings for Optimus to combine with. The armor remains completely integrated (except for the Ultimax Super Cannon) during transformation, with no [[Partformer|partsforming]], although this, along with stability concerns, renders the final power-up robot mode somewhat limited in articulation - the whole shebang has seven points of articulation (head, shoulders, hips, and ankles) excluding the wings, and the hips and ankles can only move laterally. The trailer on its own has twelve 5 mm ports, while transforming it into the armor adds six 5 mm ports of dubious utility around the feet, retains the eight from the trailer (on the backs of the wings), and has its own pair of 5 mm fist holes.
{{-}}

{{anchor|SDCCUltimatePrime}}
[[File:SDCCUltimateOptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|300px]]
*'''Ultimate Optimus Prime''' (MechTech Ultimate, 2011)
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/Omega Combat Armor, MechTech Ultimax Super Cannon

:Available exclusively at [[Hasbro Toy Shop]] and their booth at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2011, this version of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#SDCCUltimatePrime|Ultimate Optimus Prime]] is presented in vehicle mode, packaged into a large, foil-embossed bubble packaging (similar to late ''[[Transformers: Alternators|Alternators]]'' packaging) styled after Optimus Prime's trailer, with an additional foil-embossed sleeve styled after the hood of Optimus Prime's truck. Exclusive to this release is a set of stickers one can apply to the trailer. The toy itself is otherwise identical to the regular retail release.

{{picsneeded|Stickers}}
{{-}}

{{anchor|YOTDPrime}}
[[File:DOTMtoy-UltimateOptimusPrimeYOTD.jpg|thumb|225px]]
*'''Ultimate Optimus Prime''' (MechTech Ultimate, 2012)
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/Omega Combat Armor, MechTech Ultimax Super Cannon
:This red redeco of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#YOTDPrime|Ultimate Optimus Prime]] comes with a similarly redecoed red trailer with a golden Chinese dragon on it. The toy was released as a "{{w|Dragon (zodiac)|Year of the Dragon}}" Special Edition in [[2012]], since the Chinese Zodiac sign for that year is the Dragon.

{{-}}

===''Chronicle''===
[[File:Chronicle ehobby primes.jpg|upright=1.77|thumb|Evolution takes place!!! Oh... [[Optimus Primal (BW)|wait]]...]]
*'''G1 Optimus Prime & Movie Optimus Prime''' (multi-pack, 2011)
**''ID number:'' '''CH01'''
**''Accessories:'' [[Ion blaster|Laser rifle]], trailer

:This e-Hobby two-pack of a reissue of the original ''[[The Transformers (toyline)|Generation 1]]'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#G1MoviePrime|Optimus Prime figure]] and the Deluxe-Class ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)|Dark of the Moon]]'' [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Chronicle|Optimus Prime figure]] comes with a new deluxe-scaled trailer based on the one towed by Prime in ''Dark of the Moon'' not available with any other figure.

:The trailer is compatible with both figures, and sports [[5 mm post]]-holes that will hold (among many other things) G1 Prime's laser rifle and the [[MechTech]] weapon Movie Prime is armed with. The door also folds down to become a ramp, and the inside of the trailer is big enough for several Legion or Commander Cyberverse toys, or one smaller-end Deluxe figure. Two [[C joint]] bars also run along the bottom of both sides. In its base are three hidden ports designed to accommodate the three Japanese-exclusive ''[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)|Prime]]'' "Foodstrap" toys available from [[List of Transformers restaurant promotions|McDonald's]], which can only be accessed by removing the screws from the bottom of the trailer section, flipping said pieces, and then reassembling the trailer.

{{-}}

===''Movie Trilogy Series''===
[[File:MovieTrilogyOptimusPrime.jpg|upright=1.77|thumb]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2012)
**''Accessories:'' Trailer

:The trailer was reissued again for this release of Optimus Prime with several changes for the trailer: The red-and-white Autobot symbol from the front end of the trailer is slightly moved from the right, and an additional red insignia is tampographed at the right side of the trailer. The wheels' rims were unpainted.

{{--}}

===''Studio Series''===
[[File:TF-Studio-Series-SS44-Armored-Weapons-Platform.jpg|upright=2.66|thumb|Wait, you bought the 3rd Party trailer already?]]
* '''Optimus Prime''' (Leader Class, 2019)
**''ID number'': '''44'''
**''Japanese name'': '''Jetwing Optimus Prime'''
**''Japanese ID number'': '''SS-39'''
**''Japanese release date'': '''[[August 31]], 2019'''
:This [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#SS44|Optimus Prime]] comes with a new trailer that converts into his weapons platform and combat armor. He also comes with his Ion Blaster, two cannons, an energon axe, a shield, and an energon sword.

:In weapons platform mode, the trailer relies on a pair of curved frames to maintain its shape. Like the ''Cyberverse'' (2011) Action set, the trailer is completely incapable of carrying vehicles.
{{-}}

==Notes==
*Initially, Hasbro's toy designers did not know the purpose of the trailer in the film, so they created a trailer that opened up to reveal a rotating cannon that Optimus would sit in. Once it was revealed to become a jetpack, the designers had to rush to redesign the toy, which would become [[#UltimatePrime|Ultimate Optimus Prime]]. Takara's take became [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Supreme Class toys|Jetwing Optimus Prime]], though it is currently unknown if theirs was also a last minute change.<ref>[https://twitter.com/playwiththistoo/status/1595146431534600199?s=46&t=VjjZuzu_z9bqdTf2qZrMvQ Twitter thread] where [[Rik Alvarez]] talks about Ultimate Optimus Prime's development.</ref>
*Despite Optimus requiring the jet pack to fly in ''Dark of the Moon'', he possessed boosters on his feet in ''Age of Extinction'' and ''The Last Knight'' that allow him to fly unaided.

==References==
{{Reflist}}

[[Category:Cyberverse]]
[[Category:Dark of the Moon]]
[[Category:Studio Series]]

Star Harvester

2023-08-27T22:17:20Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Dark of the Moon film */

{{disambigr|Harvester|other meanings of the term|Harvester (disambiguation)}}
[[Image:ROTF-Solarharvester.jpg|thumb|right|350px|Honeycomb's big—yeah, yeah, yeah.]]

When the [[AllSpark]] runs low on energy, only the destruction of a star can replenish it. In order to harness the power of stars, [[Transformer|workers]] in service to the AllSpark built great machines called '''Star Harvesters'''.

{{quote|It harvests Energon...by destroying suns.|[[Jetfire (Movie)|Jetfire]] explains the importance of the Star Harvester|[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)]]}}

==Fiction==
===Live-action film series===
====IDW movie comics====
[[Image:Harvester Defiance4.jpg|left|thumb|150px|[[Ark (G1)|And no one on Earth discovered this for millions of years]].]]
In the distant past, the mysterious relic known as the AllSpark cube created life on the planet [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and terraformed its surface to make the world suitable for habitation for its creations, the [[Thirteen|Thirteen Primes]]. However, this effort depleted the AllSpark, and the power from a star was the one thing that could re-energize it. The Thirteen could travel dimensions, but they needed help locating stars and properly utilizing stellar energy. The cube created a servant race of transforming workers who would seek out stars and build devices called Star Harvesters to aid in collecting the solar energy. The Thirteen ruled these "[[Transformer]]s" with their descendants, known as the [[Dynasty of Primes]], protecting Cybertron and the AllSpark while exploring the galaxy and searching for stars to harvest. The Primes recognized that the Star Harvesters could have devastating consequences for worlds without stars, so they set out with a single rule: Never take a star from a life-giving world. To further prevent misuse, the Primes guarded the [[Matrix of Leadership]] created by the AllSpark, which would serve as the key for the Harvesters.

One "[[Jetfire (Movie)|Seeker]]" discovered [[Sun|a suitable star]] for their purpose and led his masters and the [[Constructicon (ROTF)|builders]] to the [[Earth|third planet]] of its star system. The builders constructed the Harvester and prepared to drain the Sun's energy, but it was discovered that this world contained life. Twelve of the Primes refused to utilize the Harvester, for the process would destroy this world. However, the remaining being felt no such obligation to protect life and merely wanted all of the AllSpark's energy for himself. The Prime killed eleven of his brothers, but the last stole the Matrix and hid it in a tomb. The rogue Prime, now known as [[The Fallen]], then returned to Cybertron and destroyed the rest of the Dynasty, along with the [[sarcophagus|sarcophagi]] of his brothers to prevent their return, but he expended much of his energy and withdrew to his own sarcophagus to heal. It was here that he discovered that his twelve brothers could still act, for they sealed him in his sarcophagus. The Dynasty of Primes passed into the realm of myth, while the Harvester left on Earth was eventually hidden by the [[human|native sentient inhabitants]]. When [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] launched the AllSpark into space, the Cube began searching for a planet with a Harvester. {{storylink|Defiance issue 4|Defiance #4}} {{storylink|Revenge of the Fallen issue 3|Revenge of the Fallen #3}}

Thousands of years later, [[Decepticon]]s under the command of [[Soundwave (ROTF)|Soundwave]] arrived on Earth in search of the Harvester. {{Storylink|Alliance issue 2|Alliance #2}}

====''Revenge of the Fallen'' film====
The [[Dynasty of Primes|Seven Primes]] came to [[Earth]] around 17,000 BC. Although they had sworn never to take a life in their pursuit of [[energon]], one of their kind hated the [[human]] inhabitants of the planet and was going to activate the Great Machine until his brothers stopped him by stealing the [[Matrix of Leadership]] needed to power it. They sealed it in a [[Tomb of the Primes|tomb]] made of their own bodies.

[[Image:ROTF Optimus destroys harvester.jpg|thumb|right|250px|And historians, archaeologists and treasure seekers across the world go nuts.]]
In 2009 AD, [[The Fallen]] Prime returned to Earth, seeking to use his machine two years after the [[AllSpark]]'s apparent destruction. [[Sam Witwicky]] uncovered the tomb and recovered the Matrix, which he intended to use to resurrect [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]], the only one who could kill The Fallen. [[Devastator (ROTF)|Devastator]] excavated the machine from the [[Great Pyramid of Giza]] before he was destroyed, and The Fallen snatched the Matrix to activate his machine, but Optimus had returned, and he combined with [[Jetfire (Movie)|Jetfire]] to destroy the Harvester. {{storylink|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen}}

====''The Last Knight'' film====
The remains of the machine along with the [[Great Pyramid of Giza]] were destroyed by a moving fragment of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] when it crashed into the pyramid. {{storylink|Transformers: The Last Knight (film)|The Last Knight}}

===2005 IDW continuity===
A team led by [[Skyquake (G1)|Skyquake]] was sent to the [[Skomiloch Territories]] to put down local resistance to the Decepticons' solar-harvesting efforts. {{storylink|The Transformers: Last Stand of the Wreckers|Snare's personnel evaluation}}

===''Beast Wars: Uprising''===
The Book of Logos mentioned a Prime finding "both Cube and Harvester" on the third planet of an unidentified system. {{storylink|Derailment}}

[[Deluge (G2)|Deluge]] cited the Star Harvester as being one of the historical examples of Cybertronians being "noisy". {{storylink|The Inexorable March}}

==Games==
===Transformers: Battle for the Matrix===
{{Note|Battle for the Matrix is a simplified retelling of the events of [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)|Revenge of the Fallen]]. It can be played from the perspective of either Bumblebee or Optimus Prime. The final battle is against Megatron and the Fallen at the Star Harvester.}}
[[Image:Solarharvester battleforthematrix.jpg|thumb|200px|left|Ancient Egyptian Laser Beams!]]
{{storylink|Transformers: Battle for the Matrix}}
{{-}}

===''Revenge of the Fallen'' mobile game===
The Decepticons sought the Matrix of Leadership so they could reactivate the "Great Machine". {{storylink|Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (Glu)|Revenge of the Fallen (Glu)}}

==Notes==
*The Star Harvester is never actually referred to by name in the ''Revenge of the Fallen'' movie or any of the films released after it. It is only ever referred to, by Jetfire, as "a great machine", "that deadly machine", or simply "that machine". Likewise, the movie's [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (novel)|novelization]] names it as the "'''Great Machine'''", uppercased properly like so. The more formal name of "Star Harvester" originates from the tie-in comics released for ''Revenge of the Fallen'' by [[IDW Publishing]].
*Yeah, it's the same idea as the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 cartoon]]'s [[Solar Needle]]. ''That doesn't make it a reference!''

[[Category:Beast Wars: Uprising technology]]
[[Category:IDW (2005) technology]]
[[Category:Revenge of the Fallen technology]]
[[Category:The Last Knight technology]]

Talk:Star Harvester

2023-08-27T01:16:24Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* DOTM Tent */ new section

Why? Aren't they called different names and have completely different origins? Yeah, the Harvester is cribbed from the Solar Needle, but I think merging them begins journey down a slippery slope. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 13:24, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
:Goood lord, no, that's about as silly a proposal for a merge as I've ever seen. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 13:30, 9 June 2009 (EDT)
::Anyone else but me notice it kinda looks like that Vox house in Beast Wars, in which they conversed with Optimus? (signed by an uncreated acount at 8:57 PM, Mountain time)
== Move? ==

In the last two issues of the movie adaptation comic, they call it "the star harvester" about fifty times.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 16:36, 13 June 2009 (EDT)
:<s>The movie used the term "Solar Harvester". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:06, 25 June 2009 (EDT)</s>
::No it didn't. Re-watched the movie a few times and it's name wasn't mentioned. My bad. Don't know ''where on Earth'' I heard "solar" from. :S --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 15:46, 10 March 2010 (EST)

== Energon Source and Other Stuff ==

Exactly where are they going to put all that energon? Also, wouldn't the blast of the sun cause it to go supernova and destroy Earth? Then again, the Fallen can telepo........bah, open a space bridge. [[Special:Contributions/69.230.74.60|69.230.74.60]] 22:18, 9 February 2010 (EST)
:In the official prequel comics the harvester recharged the AllSpark. I think that was the same plan when the Earth harvester originally built. How was the Fallen going to store the Energy in the film where the AllSpark was destroyed? Umm... Good question. I don't think it would necessarily make the sun go supernova, unless that was stated somewhere in fiction. It is draining energy from the sun, so maybe it wouldn't have enough energy left to go supernova. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 22:58, 9 February 2010 (EST)
:Do you want to put a trivia bullet about where the Fallen would store energy? [[Special:Contributions/69.230.74.60|69.230.74.60]] 23:52, 9 February 2010 (EST)
:I know I'm late to this discussion but I think I have an explanation that can satisfy all of us. Considering that the Fallen can lift hundreds of tons worth of matter telekinetically with no visible effort, spew fireballs from nowhere, unmake reality by thinking hard, and can teleport at will I think it's safe to assume that the technology of the Primes/Original Thirteen sneers at such things as space limits. It's almost a given that they use some kind of space folding or pocket dimension flubdudgery. As for Supernova stuff, the Sun isn't big enough to go Supernova in the first place, and the Sun Harvester would probably only leave a cold dead mass, like how a giant monster leech would only leave a dessicated husk. So no risk of sun kaboominess. - [[User:Tyrannolodon|Tyrannolodon]] 10:47, 27 May 2011 (EDT)

== DOTM Tent ==

So this page mentions that the firing tip of the harvester is used as a tent pole in Meg's camp but its not. That is actually an con fighters cannon barrel, and we can even see a second on the ground. Theorymus brought it to my attention but yeah, that needs to be changed but im not all too in for the editing yet to just straight up do that (out of fear of being banned or sm). If someone would wanna do that or give me a go ahead would be appreciated.

Talk:Wreck-Gar (G1)

2022-01-05T17:13:07Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Name */

"relationship with Junkion named Nancy"... I'm not so sure we should refer to her by name here, if indeed she's referred to at all. I checked the "Nancy" page, which sources the name as from a Japanese Guidebook. I'm willing to bet that "Nancy" isn't a real name, but along the lines of the "Lucy" quote with which Wreck-Gar addresses her in "Big Broadcast," i.e. a name that fit a TV reference (not that I know which one).--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 20:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
: If a guidebook says her name is Nancy, and we have no other source that definitively gives her a name, I say her name is Nancy, regardless of the original intent. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::Do the Junkions actually make television references in Japan? I thought they just had Chinese accents. -LV!
:::I recall hearing that too, now that you mention it. If that's the case, it's extremely unlikely Nancy's name is anything but literal.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::::I'd still like to know the context of this mysterious "Japanese guidebook" better. That's an awfully lame name!--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 04:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Hey, we're keeping "Rodimus Prime." I don't think "lame name" is a criteria here. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::Takara gave a character a terrible name? HOLY SHIT STOP THE PRESSES! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 06:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::::No need to be insulting....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 15:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/firstcomp/Nancy01b.jpg]

::::This is from Transformers First Series Complete. Despite it saying "Junkion Lady" in English, the katakana reads "Nanshii", or, well, "Nancy". There's also a sidenote on her in the TF Character Archive book.

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/g1-archive/Archive-Nancy01b.jpg]

::::The "Nanshii" katakana is also there, although I'm admittedly not sure what the rest of the text is. I've been told the First Series Complete book says something generic like "this is Wreck-Gar's girlfriend".

::::(Interesting, it doesn't look like the "Nancy" Lithone character model was USED in the final version of TFTM, although there's one that ''sorta'' looks like her with a lot of details omitted...)

::::Also, about the Junkion race itself - the S3 Autobot history trailer says:

::::''... and Wreck-Gar, the leader of a tribe of Autobots that dwells on the planet Junkion.''

::::Within the context (the narration was going on about off-Earth allies who recently rejoined the main Autobot force), I would say the Junkions were definitely Transformers. Maybe one of the Autobot groups who fled during the war (like those on Paradron or Antilla), but that'd be conjecture. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 16:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Stereotypical chinece accents! [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 22:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

== Fridge Logic. ==

Has it ever occurred to anyone that Wreck-Gar would be a truly huge motorcycle? I mean he's taller than quite a few of the Autobots...
:And the other Junkions can ride him. The only answer is mass shifting.[[User:Monty Prime|Monty Prime]] 14:03, 24 July 2009 (EDT)

==Possible main image==
[[Image:Wreck-Gar-MTMTE.jpg|thumb]]
Ugh no. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:32, 27 December 2010 (EST)
:Not my favorite art, but it does show a clearer perspective. My problem with it is that I think we already use a lot of images from this source, more variety would be better. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:35, 27 December 2010 (EST)
Now that I've cleaned up the long-standing main image, a few errors stand out to me. He's missing his left nipple for some reason, as well as the hip-pouch on his left side. And I guess the motorcycle windshield was left off his head. Oh, the things one notices when there's not so much distraction going on. But hey, at least Wrecky's still reaching for your purse. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:59, 28 December 2010 (EST)

==Name==
"''It's more likely the name is simply a portmanteau of the words "Wreckage" and "Garbage", though''" - I've always assumed the name was a mangled version of the word ''wrecker'', in a Go-Bot style. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.17.64|87.114.17.64]] 18:37, 7 March 2012 (EST)
:This could also work with Rum-maj being a play on rummage. [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 12:11, 5 January 2022 (EST)

==Writing style==
After seeing the articles for Wheelie, Sky-Lynx and many other characters with a quirky personality, words cannot express my disappointment upon reading this one and discovering it was not written in TV. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] 20:40, 3 November 2012 (EDT)

== Reveal the Shield Wreck-Gar ==

I've removed a section in RTS Wreck-Gar's toy writeup based around [[:File:OriginalRtSWreck-Gar.jpg|this image]] wholesale. First of all, those photos were used to illustrate the ''TakaraTomy'' toy, so they should not be used as the sole evidence for a presumed different original ''Hasbro'' deco, especially not when all the actual official ''Hasbro'' stock photos (seen [http://toys.tfw2005.com/wreck-gar-7-5103 here]) depict the toy in its standard colors.

Secondly, those photos are very grainy, upscaled poor quality edits with overdone hue/saturation settings. The original versions (with unedited backgrounds) can be found [http://news.tfw2005.com/2010/10/13/transformers-generations-kup-170734 here] and show standard Hasbro colors. So the only thing taken from this should be "Preorders for the TakaraTomy figure were originally illustrated with photos depicting a sample in the Hasbro version's deco before the deco for the TakaraTomy version was finalized."--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 16:52, 16 October 2016 (EDT)

== You talk TV? ==

I kinda want a translation of this page in TV. Not as a replacement of this page, maybe just in somebody's sandbox. [[User:Cosmos1|Waverod ✈️]] ([[User talk:Cosmos1|talk]]) 16:43, 16 April 2021 (EDT)

== New main pic ==

I'm sorry but I'm not fond of that new mainpic. The old one was bad but it was also based on his original body; this one is based on the 2010 toy. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:13, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
: The new one isn't a 1-1 match for his cartoon form, but I thought that it did incorporate most of the recognizable cartoon traits (horns on his helmet, nipple thingies) better than the old one did. I guess I can change it back if people think otherwise?[[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:20, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: In general "most-recognizable" body has been our standard for a long time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:22, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: It doesn't need to be the old pic, mind, but it shouldn't be this one either. I wish again that there would have been actual discussion about this on the talk page instead of just going ahead and doing it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:36, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
::: ''Is'' that specific image his most recognizable body, though? It's definitely based of this toy body, but when you scroll down to the first section cartoon Wreck-Gar is totally different--different head shape, different colors, wheels, torso pattern, the fact that his beard is grey in the mainpic... I mean, again, I know that it's not based on the original G1 toy but I did think it was a happier medium between the different interpretations than the previous pic. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:19, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::: It's closer to his original toy than the new pic. Again, it's not a good image, but neither is this for mainpic purposes. And again, there should have been a discussion beforehand. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:24, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::I think maybe his new Studio Series art might make for a good mainpic? It's mostly cartoon accurate and literally represents his very first appearance. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 00:16, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: I agree that the new picture plainly draws from the ''Reveal the Shield'' toy in a way that doesn't feel great, but I also think the old one on the page was barely better. Both belong in a gallery, if we ever get those working, but there must be something closer to the original character model that can be used, surely? Mixed feelings on the Studio Series idea. Do we even have a non-cropped version of that? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 10:25, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: Studio Series is the ideal but as far as I know it's only ever shown up on that one T-shirt, which isn't really wiki-quality. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 10:28, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::::There's the image further up the page that's far more accurate than either. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:04, 31 May 2021 (EDT)

Talk:Wreck-Gar (G1)

2022-01-05T17:12:33Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Name */

"relationship with Junkion named Nancy"... I'm not so sure we should refer to her by name here, if indeed she's referred to at all. I checked the "Nancy" page, which sources the name as from a Japanese Guidebook. I'm willing to bet that "Nancy" isn't a real name, but along the lines of the "Lucy" quote with which Wreck-Gar addresses her in "Big Broadcast," i.e. a name that fit a TV reference (not that I know which one).--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 20:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
: If a guidebook says her name is Nancy, and we have no other source that definitively gives her a name, I say her name is Nancy, regardless of the original intent. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::Do the Junkions actually make television references in Japan? I thought they just had Chinese accents. -LV!
:::I recall hearing that too, now that you mention it. If that's the case, it's extremely unlikely Nancy's name is anything but literal.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::::I'd still like to know the context of this mysterious "Japanese guidebook" better. That's an awfully lame name!--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 04:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Hey, we're keeping "Rodimus Prime." I don't think "lame name" is a criteria here. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::Takara gave a character a terrible name? HOLY SHIT STOP THE PRESSES! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 06:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::::No need to be insulting....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 15:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/firstcomp/Nancy01b.jpg]

::::This is from Transformers First Series Complete. Despite it saying "Junkion Lady" in English, the katakana reads "Nanshii", or, well, "Nancy". There's also a sidenote on her in the TF Character Archive book.

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/g1-archive/Archive-Nancy01b.jpg]

::::The "Nanshii" katakana is also there, although I'm admittedly not sure what the rest of the text is. I've been told the First Series Complete book says something generic like "this is Wreck-Gar's girlfriend".

::::(Interesting, it doesn't look like the "Nancy" Lithone character model was USED in the final version of TFTM, although there's one that ''sorta'' looks like her with a lot of details omitted...)

::::Also, about the Junkion race itself - the S3 Autobot history trailer says:

::::''... and Wreck-Gar, the leader of a tribe of Autobots that dwells on the planet Junkion.''

::::Within the context (the narration was going on about off-Earth allies who recently rejoined the main Autobot force), I would say the Junkions were definitely Transformers. Maybe one of the Autobot groups who fled during the war (like those on Paradron or Antilla), but that'd be conjecture. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 16:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Stereotypical chinece accents! [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 22:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

== Fridge Logic. ==

Has it ever occurred to anyone that Wreck-Gar would be a truly huge motorcycle? I mean he's taller than quite a few of the Autobots...
:And the other Junkions can ride him. The only answer is mass shifting.[[User:Monty Prime|Monty Prime]] 14:03, 24 July 2009 (EDT)

==Possible main image==
[[Image:Wreck-Gar-MTMTE.jpg|thumb]]
Ugh no. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:32, 27 December 2010 (EST)
:Not my favorite art, but it does show a clearer perspective. My problem with it is that I think we already use a lot of images from this source, more variety would be better. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:35, 27 December 2010 (EST)
Now that I've cleaned up the long-standing main image, a few errors stand out to me. He's missing his left nipple for some reason, as well as the hip-pouch on his left side. And I guess the motorcycle windshield was left off his head. Oh, the things one notices when there's not so much distraction going on. But hey, at least Wrecky's still reaching for your purse. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:59, 28 December 2010 (EST)

==Name==
"''It's more likely the name is simply a portmanteau of the words "Wreckage" and "Garbage", though''" - I've always assumed the name was a mangled version of the word ''wrecker'', in a Go-Bot style. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.17.64|87.114.17.64]] 18:37, 7 March 2012 (EST)

This could also work with Rum-maj being a play on rummage. [[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 12:11, 5 January 2022 (EST)

==Writing style==
After seeing the articles for Wheelie, Sky-Lynx and many other characters with a quirky personality, words cannot express my disappointment upon reading this one and discovering it was not written in TV. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] 20:40, 3 November 2012 (EDT)

== Reveal the Shield Wreck-Gar ==

I've removed a section in RTS Wreck-Gar's toy writeup based around [[:File:OriginalRtSWreck-Gar.jpg|this image]] wholesale. First of all, those photos were used to illustrate the ''TakaraTomy'' toy, so they should not be used as the sole evidence for a presumed different original ''Hasbro'' deco, especially not when all the actual official ''Hasbro'' stock photos (seen [http://toys.tfw2005.com/wreck-gar-7-5103 here]) depict the toy in its standard colors.

Secondly, those photos are very grainy, upscaled poor quality edits with overdone hue/saturation settings. The original versions (with unedited backgrounds) can be found [http://news.tfw2005.com/2010/10/13/transformers-generations-kup-170734 here] and show standard Hasbro colors. So the only thing taken from this should be "Preorders for the TakaraTomy figure were originally illustrated with photos depicting a sample in the Hasbro version's deco before the deco for the TakaraTomy version was finalized."--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 16:52, 16 October 2016 (EDT)

== You talk TV? ==

I kinda want a translation of this page in TV. Not as a replacement of this page, maybe just in somebody's sandbox. [[User:Cosmos1|Waverod ✈️]] ([[User talk:Cosmos1|talk]]) 16:43, 16 April 2021 (EDT)

== New main pic ==

I'm sorry but I'm not fond of that new mainpic. The old one was bad but it was also based on his original body; this one is based on the 2010 toy. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:13, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
: The new one isn't a 1-1 match for his cartoon form, but I thought that it did incorporate most of the recognizable cartoon traits (horns on his helmet, nipple thingies) better than the old one did. I guess I can change it back if people think otherwise?[[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:20, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: In general "most-recognizable" body has been our standard for a long time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:22, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: It doesn't need to be the old pic, mind, but it shouldn't be this one either. I wish again that there would have been actual discussion about this on the talk page instead of just going ahead and doing it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:36, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
::: ''Is'' that specific image his most recognizable body, though? It's definitely based of this toy body, but when you scroll down to the first section cartoon Wreck-Gar is totally different--different head shape, different colors, wheels, torso pattern, the fact that his beard is grey in the mainpic... I mean, again, I know that it's not based on the original G1 toy but I did think it was a happier medium between the different interpretations than the previous pic. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:19, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::: It's closer to his original toy than the new pic. Again, it's not a good image, but neither is this for mainpic purposes. And again, there should have been a discussion beforehand. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:24, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::I think maybe his new Studio Series art might make for a good mainpic? It's mostly cartoon accurate and literally represents his very first appearance. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 00:16, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: I agree that the new picture plainly draws from the ''Reveal the Shield'' toy in a way that doesn't feel great, but I also think the old one on the page was barely better. Both belong in a gallery, if we ever get those working, but there must be something closer to the original character model that can be used, surely? Mixed feelings on the Studio Series idea. Do we even have a non-cropped version of that? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 10:25, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: Studio Series is the ideal but as far as I know it's only ever shown up on that one T-shirt, which isn't really wiki-quality. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 10:28, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::::There's the image further up the page that's far more accurate than either. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:04, 31 May 2021 (EDT)

Talk:Wreck-Gar (G1)

2022-01-05T17:11:13Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Name */

"relationship with Junkion named Nancy"... I'm not so sure we should refer to her by name here, if indeed she's referred to at all. I checked the "Nancy" page, which sources the name as from a Japanese Guidebook. I'm willing to bet that "Nancy" isn't a real name, but along the lines of the "Lucy" quote with which Wreck-Gar addresses her in "Big Broadcast," i.e. a name that fit a TV reference (not that I know which one).--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 20:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
: If a guidebook says her name is Nancy, and we have no other source that definitively gives her a name, I say her name is Nancy, regardless of the original intent. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::Do the Junkions actually make television references in Japan? I thought they just had Chinese accents. -LV!
:::I recall hearing that too, now that you mention it. If that's the case, it's extremely unlikely Nancy's name is anything but literal.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::::I'd still like to know the context of this mysterious "Japanese guidebook" better. That's an awfully lame name!--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 04:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Hey, we're keeping "Rodimus Prime." I don't think "lame name" is a criteria here. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::Takara gave a character a terrible name? HOLY SHIT STOP THE PRESSES! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 06:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::::No need to be insulting....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 15:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/firstcomp/Nancy01b.jpg]

::::This is from Transformers First Series Complete. Despite it saying "Junkion Lady" in English, the katakana reads "Nanshii", or, well, "Nancy". There's also a sidenote on her in the TF Character Archive book.

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/g1-archive/Archive-Nancy01b.jpg]

::::The "Nanshii" katakana is also there, although I'm admittedly not sure what the rest of the text is. I've been told the First Series Complete book says something generic like "this is Wreck-Gar's girlfriend".

::::(Interesting, it doesn't look like the "Nancy" Lithone character model was USED in the final version of TFTM, although there's one that ''sorta'' looks like her with a lot of details omitted...)

::::Also, about the Junkion race itself - the S3 Autobot history trailer says:

::::''... and Wreck-Gar, the leader of a tribe of Autobots that dwells on the planet Junkion.''

::::Within the context (the narration was going on about off-Earth allies who recently rejoined the main Autobot force), I would say the Junkions were definitely Transformers. Maybe one of the Autobot groups who fled during the war (like those on Paradron or Antilla), but that'd be conjecture. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 16:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Stereotypical chinece accents! [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 22:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

== Fridge Logic. ==

Has it ever occurred to anyone that Wreck-Gar would be a truly huge motorcycle? I mean he's taller than quite a few of the Autobots...
:And the other Junkions can ride him. The only answer is mass shifting.[[User:Monty Prime|Monty Prime]] 14:03, 24 July 2009 (EDT)

==Possible main image==
[[Image:Wreck-Gar-MTMTE.jpg|thumb]]
Ugh no. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:32, 27 December 2010 (EST)
:Not my favorite art, but it does show a clearer perspective. My problem with it is that I think we already use a lot of images from this source, more variety would be better. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:35, 27 December 2010 (EST)
Now that I've cleaned up the long-standing main image, a few errors stand out to me. He's missing his left nipple for some reason, as well as the hip-pouch on his left side. And I guess the motorcycle windshield was left off his head. Oh, the things one notices when there's not so much distraction going on. But hey, at least Wrecky's still reaching for your purse. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:59, 28 December 2010 (EST)

==Name==
"''It's more likely the name is simply a portmanteau of the words "Wreckage" and "Garbage", though''" - I've always assumed the name was a mangled version of the word ''wrecker'', in a Go-Bot style. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.17.64|87.114.17.64]] 18:37, 7 March 2012 (EST)
This could also work with Rum-maj being a play on rummage.[[User:SkywarpsTwin|SkywarpsTwin]] ([[User talk:SkywarpsTwin|talk]]) 12:11, 5 January 2022 (EST)

==Writing style==
After seeing the articles for Wheelie, Sky-Lynx and many other characters with a quirky personality, words cannot express my disappointment upon reading this one and discovering it was not written in TV. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] 20:40, 3 November 2012 (EDT)

== Reveal the Shield Wreck-Gar ==

I've removed a section in RTS Wreck-Gar's toy writeup based around [[:File:OriginalRtSWreck-Gar.jpg|this image]] wholesale. First of all, those photos were used to illustrate the ''TakaraTomy'' toy, so they should not be used as the sole evidence for a presumed different original ''Hasbro'' deco, especially not when all the actual official ''Hasbro'' stock photos (seen [http://toys.tfw2005.com/wreck-gar-7-5103 here]) depict the toy in its standard colors.

Secondly, those photos are very grainy, upscaled poor quality edits with overdone hue/saturation settings. The original versions (with unedited backgrounds) can be found [http://news.tfw2005.com/2010/10/13/transformers-generations-kup-170734 here] and show standard Hasbro colors. So the only thing taken from this should be "Preorders for the TakaraTomy figure were originally illustrated with photos depicting a sample in the Hasbro version's deco before the deco for the TakaraTomy version was finalized."--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 16:52, 16 October 2016 (EDT)

== You talk TV? ==

I kinda want a translation of this page in TV. Not as a replacement of this page, maybe just in somebody's sandbox. [[User:Cosmos1|Waverod ✈️]] ([[User talk:Cosmos1|talk]]) 16:43, 16 April 2021 (EDT)

== New main pic ==

I'm sorry but I'm not fond of that new mainpic. The old one was bad but it was also based on his original body; this one is based on the 2010 toy. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:13, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
: The new one isn't a 1-1 match for his cartoon form, but I thought that it did incorporate most of the recognizable cartoon traits (horns on his helmet, nipple thingies) better than the old one did. I guess I can change it back if people think otherwise?[[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:20, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: In general "most-recognizable" body has been our standard for a long time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:22, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: It doesn't need to be the old pic, mind, but it shouldn't be this one either. I wish again that there would have been actual discussion about this on the talk page instead of just going ahead and doing it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:36, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
::: ''Is'' that specific image his most recognizable body, though? It's definitely based of this toy body, but when you scroll down to the first section cartoon Wreck-Gar is totally different--different head shape, different colors, wheels, torso pattern, the fact that his beard is grey in the mainpic... I mean, again, I know that it's not based on the original G1 toy but I did think it was a happier medium between the different interpretations than the previous pic. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:19, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::: It's closer to his original toy than the new pic. Again, it's not a good image, but neither is this for mainpic purposes. And again, there should have been a discussion beforehand. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:24, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::I think maybe his new Studio Series art might make for a good mainpic? It's mostly cartoon accurate and literally represents his very first appearance. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 00:16, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: I agree that the new picture plainly draws from the ''Reveal the Shield'' toy in a way that doesn't feel great, but I also think the old one on the page was barely better. Both belong in a gallery, if we ever get those working, but there must be something closer to the original character model that can be used, surely? Mixed feelings on the Studio Series idea. Do we even have a non-cropped version of that? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 10:25, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: Studio Series is the ideal but as far as I know it's only ever shown up on that one T-shirt, which isn't really wiki-quality. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 10:28, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::::There's the image further up the page that's far more accurate than either. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:04, 31 May 2021 (EDT)

Talk:Wreck-Gar (G1)

2022-01-05T17:07:34Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Name */

"relationship with Junkion named Nancy"... I'm not so sure we should refer to her by name here, if indeed she's referred to at all. I checked the "Nancy" page, which sources the name as from a Japanese Guidebook. I'm willing to bet that "Nancy" isn't a real name, but along the lines of the "Lucy" quote with which Wreck-Gar addresses her in "Big Broadcast," i.e. a name that fit a TV reference (not that I know which one).--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 20:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
: If a guidebook says her name is Nancy, and we have no other source that definitively gives her a name, I say her name is Nancy, regardless of the original intent. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::Do the Junkions actually make television references in Japan? I thought they just had Chinese accents. -LV!
:::I recall hearing that too, now that you mention it. If that's the case, it's extremely unlikely Nancy's name is anything but literal.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::::I'd still like to know the context of this mysterious "Japanese guidebook" better. That's an awfully lame name!--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 04:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Hey, we're keeping "Rodimus Prime." I don't think "lame name" is a criteria here. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::Takara gave a character a terrible name? HOLY SHIT STOP THE PRESSES! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 06:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::::No need to be insulting....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 15:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/firstcomp/Nancy01b.jpg]

::::This is from Transformers First Series Complete. Despite it saying "Junkion Lady" in English, the katakana reads "Nanshii", or, well, "Nancy". There's also a sidenote on her in the TF Character Archive book.

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/g1-archive/Archive-Nancy01b.jpg]

::::The "Nanshii" katakana is also there, although I'm admittedly not sure what the rest of the text is. I've been told the First Series Complete book says something generic like "this is Wreck-Gar's girlfriend".

::::(Interesting, it doesn't look like the "Nancy" Lithone character model was USED in the final version of TFTM, although there's one that ''sorta'' looks like her with a lot of details omitted...)

::::Also, about the Junkion race itself - the S3 Autobot history trailer says:

::::''... and Wreck-Gar, the leader of a tribe of Autobots that dwells on the planet Junkion.''

::::Within the context (the narration was going on about off-Earth allies who recently rejoined the main Autobot force), I would say the Junkions were definitely Transformers. Maybe one of the Autobot groups who fled during the war (like those on Paradron or Antilla), but that'd be conjecture. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 16:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Stereotypical chinece accents! [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 22:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

== Fridge Logic. ==

Has it ever occurred to anyone that Wreck-Gar would be a truly huge motorcycle? I mean he's taller than quite a few of the Autobots...
:And the other Junkions can ride him. The only answer is mass shifting.[[User:Monty Prime|Monty Prime]] 14:03, 24 July 2009 (EDT)

==Possible main image==
[[Image:Wreck-Gar-MTMTE.jpg|thumb]]
Ugh no. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:32, 27 December 2010 (EST)
:Not my favorite art, but it does show a clearer perspective. My problem with it is that I think we already use a lot of images from this source, more variety would be better. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:35, 27 December 2010 (EST)
Now that I've cleaned up the long-standing main image, a few errors stand out to me. He's missing his left nipple for some reason, as well as the hip-pouch on his left side. And I guess the motorcycle windshield was left off his head. Oh, the things one notices when there's not so much distraction going on. But hey, at least Wrecky's still reaching for your purse. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:59, 28 December 2010 (EST)

==Name==
"''It's more likely the name is simply a portmanteau of the words "Wreckage" and "Garbage", though''" - I've always assumed the name was a mangled version of the word ''wrecker'', in a Go-Bot style. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.17.64|87.114.17.64]] 18:37, 7 March 2012 (EST)

==Writing style==
After seeing the articles for Wheelie, Sky-Lynx and many other characters with a quirky personality, words cannot express my disappointment upon reading this one and discovering it was not written in TV. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] 20:40, 3 November 2012 (EDT)

== Reveal the Shield Wreck-Gar ==

I've removed a section in RTS Wreck-Gar's toy writeup based around [[:File:OriginalRtSWreck-Gar.jpg|this image]] wholesale. First of all, those photos were used to illustrate the ''TakaraTomy'' toy, so they should not be used as the sole evidence for a presumed different original ''Hasbro'' deco, especially not when all the actual official ''Hasbro'' stock photos (seen [http://toys.tfw2005.com/wreck-gar-7-5103 here]) depict the toy in its standard colors.

Secondly, those photos are very grainy, upscaled poor quality edits with overdone hue/saturation settings. The original versions (with unedited backgrounds) can be found [http://news.tfw2005.com/2010/10/13/transformers-generations-kup-170734 here] and show standard Hasbro colors. So the only thing taken from this should be "Preorders for the TakaraTomy figure were originally illustrated with photos depicting a sample in the Hasbro version's deco before the deco for the TakaraTomy version was finalized."--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 16:52, 16 October 2016 (EDT)

== You talk TV? ==

I kinda want a translation of this page in TV. Not as a replacement of this page, maybe just in somebody's sandbox. [[User:Cosmos1|Waverod ✈️]] ([[User talk:Cosmos1|talk]]) 16:43, 16 April 2021 (EDT)

== New main pic ==

I'm sorry but I'm not fond of that new mainpic. The old one was bad but it was also based on his original body; this one is based on the 2010 toy. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:13, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
: The new one isn't a 1-1 match for his cartoon form, but I thought that it did incorporate most of the recognizable cartoon traits (horns on his helmet, nipple thingies) better than the old one did. I guess I can change it back if people think otherwise?[[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:20, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: In general "most-recognizable" body has been our standard for a long time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:22, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: It doesn't need to be the old pic, mind, but it shouldn't be this one either. I wish again that there would have been actual discussion about this on the talk page instead of just going ahead and doing it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:36, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
::: ''Is'' that specific image his most recognizable body, though? It's definitely based of this toy body, but when you scroll down to the first section cartoon Wreck-Gar is totally different--different head shape, different colors, wheels, torso pattern, the fact that his beard is grey in the mainpic... I mean, again, I know that it's not based on the original G1 toy but I did think it was a happier medium between the different interpretations than the previous pic. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:19, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::: It's closer to his original toy than the new pic. Again, it's not a good image, but neither is this for mainpic purposes. And again, there should have been a discussion beforehand. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:24, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::I think maybe his new Studio Series art might make for a good mainpic? It's mostly cartoon accurate and literally represents his very first appearance. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 00:16, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: I agree that the new picture plainly draws from the ''Reveal the Shield'' toy in a way that doesn't feel great, but I also think the old one on the page was barely better. Both belong in a gallery, if we ever get those working, but there must be something closer to the original character model that can be used, surely? Mixed feelings on the Studio Series idea. Do we even have a non-cropped version of that? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 10:25, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: Studio Series is the ideal but as far as I know it's only ever shown up on that one T-shirt, which isn't really wiki-quality. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 10:28, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::::There's the image further up the page that's far more accurate than either. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:04, 31 May 2021 (EDT)

Talk:Wreck-Gar (G1)

2022-01-05T17:05:24Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Name */ new section

"relationship with Junkion named Nancy"... I'm not so sure we should refer to her by name here, if indeed she's referred to at all. I checked the "Nancy" page, which sources the name as from a Japanese Guidebook. I'm willing to bet that "Nancy" isn't a real name, but along the lines of the "Lucy" quote with which Wreck-Gar addresses her in "Big Broadcast," i.e. a name that fit a TV reference (not that I know which one).--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 20:42, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
: If a guidebook says her name is Nancy, and we have no other source that definitively gives her a name, I say her name is Nancy, regardless of the original intent. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:02, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::Do the Junkions actually make television references in Japan? I thought they just had Chinese accents. -LV!
:::I recall hearing that too, now that you mention it. If that's the case, it's extremely unlikely Nancy's name is anything but literal.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:56, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
::::I'd still like to know the context of this mysterious "Japanese guidebook" better. That's an awfully lame name!--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 04:13, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::Hey, we're keeping "Rodimus Prime." I don't think "lame name" is a criteria here. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
::::::Takara gave a character a terrible name? HOLY SHIT STOP THE PRESSES! --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 06:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
:::::::No need to be insulting....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 15:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/firstcomp/Nancy01b.jpg]

::::This is from Transformers First Series Complete. Despite it saying "Junkion Lady" in English, the katakana reads "Nanshii", or, well, "Nancy". There's also a sidenote on her in the TF Character Archive book.

::::[http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/tfscans/g1-archive/Archive-Nancy01b.jpg]

::::The "Nanshii" katakana is also there, although I'm admittedly not sure what the rest of the text is. I've been told the First Series Complete book says something generic like "this is Wreck-Gar's girlfriend".

::::(Interesting, it doesn't look like the "Nancy" Lithone character model was USED in the final version of TFTM, although there's one that ''sorta'' looks like her with a lot of details omitted...)

::::Also, about the Junkion race itself - the S3 Autobot history trailer says:

::::''... and Wreck-Gar, the leader of a tribe of Autobots that dwells on the planet Junkion.''

::::Within the context (the narration was going on about off-Earth allies who recently rejoined the main Autobot force), I would say the Junkions were definitely Transformers. Maybe one of the Autobot groups who fled during the war (like those on Paradron or Antilla), but that'd be conjecture. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 16:52, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Stereotypical chinece accents! [[User:X-BoB58|X-BoB58]] 22:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

== Fridge Logic. ==

Has it ever occurred to anyone that Wreck-Gar would be a truly huge motorcycle? I mean he's taller than quite a few of the Autobots...
:And the other Junkions can ride him. The only answer is mass shifting.[[User:Monty Prime|Monty Prime]] 14:03, 24 July 2009 (EDT)

==Possible main image==
[[Image:Wreck-Gar-MTMTE.jpg|thumb]]
Ugh no. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 14:32, 27 December 2010 (EST)
:Not my favorite art, but it does show a clearer perspective. My problem with it is that I think we already use a lot of images from this source, more variety would be better. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:35, 27 December 2010 (EST)
Now that I've cleaned up the long-standing main image, a few errors stand out to me. He's missing his left nipple for some reason, as well as the hip-pouch on his left side. And I guess the motorcycle windshield was left off his head. Oh, the things one notices when there's not so much distraction going on. But hey, at least Wrecky's still reaching for your purse. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:59, 28 December 2010 (EST)

==Name==
"''It's more likely the name is simply a portmanteau of the words "Wreckage" and "Garbage", though''" - I've always assumed the name was a mangled version of the word ''wrecker'', in a Go-Bot style. [[Special:Contributions/87.114.17.64|87.114.17.64]] 18:37, 7 March 2012 (EST)

==Writing style==
After seeing the articles for Wheelie, Sky-Lynx and many other characters with a quirky personality, words cannot express my disappointment upon reading this one and discovering it was not written in TV. [[User:Takeshi357|Takeshi357]] 20:40, 3 November 2012 (EDT)

== Reveal the Shield Wreck-Gar ==

I've removed a section in RTS Wreck-Gar's toy writeup based around [[:File:OriginalRtSWreck-Gar.jpg|this image]] wholesale. First of all, those photos were used to illustrate the ''TakaraTomy'' toy, so they should not be used as the sole evidence for a presumed different original ''Hasbro'' deco, especially not when all the actual official ''Hasbro'' stock photos (seen [http://toys.tfw2005.com/wreck-gar-7-5103 here]) depict the toy in its standard colors.

Secondly, those photos are very grainy, upscaled poor quality edits with overdone hue/saturation settings. The original versions (with unedited backgrounds) can be found [http://news.tfw2005.com/2010/10/13/transformers-generations-kup-170734 here] and show standard Hasbro colors. So the only thing taken from this should be "Preorders for the TakaraTomy figure were originally illustrated with photos depicting a sample in the Hasbro version's deco before the deco for the TakaraTomy version was finalized."--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 16:52, 16 October 2016 (EDT)

== You talk TV? ==

I kinda want a translation of this page in TV. Not as a replacement of this page, maybe just in somebody's sandbox. [[User:Cosmos1|Waverod ✈️]] ([[User talk:Cosmos1|talk]]) 16:43, 16 April 2021 (EDT)

== New main pic ==

I'm sorry but I'm not fond of that new mainpic. The old one was bad but it was also based on his original body; this one is based on the 2010 toy. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:13, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
: The new one isn't a 1-1 match for his cartoon form, but I thought that it did incorporate most of the recognizable cartoon traits (horns on his helmet, nipple thingies) better than the old one did. I guess I can change it back if people think otherwise?[[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 22:20, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: In general "most-recognizable" body has been our standard for a long time. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:22, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:: It doesn't need to be the old pic, mind, but it shouldn't be this one either. I wish again that there would have been actual discussion about this on the talk page instead of just going ahead and doing it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:36, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
::: ''Is'' that specific image his most recognizable body, though? It's definitely based of this toy body, but when you scroll down to the first section cartoon Wreck-Gar is totally different--different head shape, different colors, wheels, torso pattern, the fact that his beard is grey in the mainpic... I mean, again, I know that it's not based on the original G1 toy but I did think it was a happier medium between the different interpretations than the previous pic. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 23:19, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::: It's closer to his original toy than the new pic. Again, it's not a good image, but neither is this for mainpic purposes. And again, there should have been a discussion beforehand. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:24, 30 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::I think maybe his new Studio Series art might make for a good mainpic? It's mostly cartoon accurate and literally represents his very first appearance. --[[User:Fritz|Fritz]] ([[User talk:Fritz|talk]]) 00:16, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: I agree that the new picture plainly draws from the ''Reveal the Shield'' toy in a way that doesn't feel great, but I also think the old one on the page was barely better. Both belong in a gallery, if we ever get those working, but there must be something closer to the original character model that can be used, surely? Mixed feelings on the Studio Series idea. Do we even have a non-cropped version of that? —[[User:The Wadapan|The Wadapan]] ([[User talk:The Wadapan|talk]]) 10:25, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::: Studio Series is the ideal but as far as I know it's only ever shown up on that one T-shirt, which isn't really wiki-quality. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 10:28, 31 May 2021 (EDT)
:::::::There's the image further up the page that's far more accurate than either. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:04, 31 May 2021 (EDT)

== Name ==

I always thought his name was a splitting of the word "wrecker". Like wreck-er, wreck-gar, but they just threw in the "G" cause that is soemthing they would do. This would also work with others, like rum-maj being a play on rummage.

Cyber Caliber

2021-12-21T15:21:27Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Notes */

{{factions|nexusprime}}
The '''Cyber Caliber''' is one of [[Artifacts of the Primes|the relics]] of the [[Thirteen]], and a creation of [[Solus Prime]]. Much like its intended wielder [[Nexus Prime]], the sword could split apart into five separate weapons for his components to wield, or merge into a single exceedingly sharp blade. The sword was said to be able to repair or disassemble any device.

==Fiction==
===''The Covenant of Primus''===
The Cyber Caliber was created by Solus Prime after the defeat of [[Unicron]]. After Solus Prime's death, Nexus Prime hid the sword inside his component robots, and scattered them among the stars. Eons later, a reconstituted Nexus Prime gifted it to [[Optimus Prime (WFC)|Optimus Prime]] on the planet [[Junkion (planet)|Junkion]]; Optimus used the sword to duel against [[Megatron (WFC)|Megatron]]. {{storylink|Transformers: The Covenant of Primus|The Covenant of Primus}}

===Aligned novels===
The Cyber Caliber was created by Solus Prime. After the defeat of [[Liege Maximo]], Nexus Prime took custody of the relic and decided it must be hidden away till it could not be done without. He separated himself into five beings, each carrying and guarding a fragment of the Cyber Caliber. Much later, a newly reformed Nexus Prime granted it to Optimus Prime, who used it to fight Megatron to a standstill on the planet Junkion. After the [[Requiem Blaster (Megatronus)|Requiem Blaster]] was fired from the ''[[Trypticon (WFC)|Nemesis]]'', the Cyber Caliber had disappeared, blown away by the explosion. After the battle, each of Nexus Prime's components once again took a piece of the sword as they split up and headed out into space in different directions. {{Storylink|Transformers: Exiles|Exiles}}

===Ask Vector Prime===
[[Mogahn the Mass]] wielded a version of the Cyber Caliber. During a battle with the [[Time Warrior (AVP)|Time Warrior]]s, [[Vector Prime]], who had recovered his memories as one of the [[Thirteen]], wrested the Cyber Caliber from Mogahn's grasp. He then reformatted the sword into [[Rhisling|one that could cut through time]], and defeated Mogahn. {{storylink|Ask Vector Prime#Facebook|Ask Vector Prime, 12/7/2015}}

==Notes==
*"Cyber Caliber" was once believed to be an obscure alternate name for ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (franchise)|Cybertron]]''-era [[Vector Prime]]'s sword, "[[Rhisling]]".<ref>Previous revisions of the [[Rhisling]] page on {{SITENAME SHORT}} reported this fact variously citing instruction sheets or Japanese sources.</ref> That may have been true, but if so, the source of the information currently remains lost to the fog of time—or vanishing online content.
*The name may have been originally inspired by the famous fictional sword, [[Talisman (TLK)|Excalibur]]. If the original source of the name was Japanese, the English spelling of "Cyber Caliber" (as opposed to "Cyber Calib'''u'''r") may have come down to a transliteration choice.
*The name of this sword from ''Exiles'' is presumably a homage to Vector Prime's sword, which, as stated above, may or may not have actually been called "Cyber Caliber".
*The Facebook edition of ''Ask Vector Prime'' told how the Cyber Caliber was reformatted into the Rhisling, homaging the confusion surrounding the origin of the term "Cyber Caliber".

==Footnotes==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Artifacts of the Primes]]
[[Category:Prime weapons]]

Firetrap

2021-11-05T00:51:21Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Notes */

{{faction|autobotfilm}}
:''Firetrap is an [[Autobot]] from the [[live-action film series]] [[continuity family]] (via the [[Transformers (2010 toyline)|2010 Transformers toyline]]).''

[[Image:TF2010_scout_Firetrap.jpg|thumb|300px|Pay no attention to the colors, I'm not [[Brawn (ROTF)|Brawn]]. Really!]]

'''Firetrap''' is enormously enthusiastic about ammunition—the more specialized, the better. And as far as he's concerned, the best way to enjoy himself is to use said specialist ammo to take out [[Sunspot|unsuspecting]] [[Decepticon]]s.<ref>''Hunt for the Decepticons'' Scout Class Firetrap packaging bio</ref>

==Toys==
===''Transformers'' (2010)===
*'''Firetrap''' (Scout, 2010)

:''[[Transformers (2010 toyline)#HFTD|Transformers: Hunt for the Decepticons]]'' Firetrap is a [[redeco]] of ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Scout Class [[Scattorshot (ROTF)#Toys|Scattorshot]], transforming into an anti-aircraft truck with a forward ramming plow. In robot mode, the dual roof-mounted cannons become hand-held rifles.

:This mold was also used to make [[Flak (TF 2010)#Toys|Flak]] in the same toyline.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2010/Autobot/Firetrap/firetrap.htm More information on Firetrap at TFU.info]''

==Notes==
* He is likely a homage to [[Brawn (G1)|Generation 1 Brawn]].

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Live-action film series Autobots]]
[[Category:Toy-only characters]]
[[Category:Transformers (2010) Autobots]]

Windblade (Cyberverse)

2021-10-31T00:06:14Z

SkywarpsTwin: /* Cyberverse cartoon */

{{factions|autobot}}
{{disambig3|Windblade}}
:''Windblade is a [[Caminus (planet)|Camien]] [[Autobot]] from the [[Transformers: Cyberverse (franchise)|Cyberverse]] [[continuity family]].''
[[File:CyberverseWindblade.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Sailor [[Caminus (planet)|Caminus]].]]
'''Windblade''' has put herself in charge of keeping her best friend [[Bumblebee (Cyberverse)|Bumblebee]] out of trouble, which isn't easy now that he's lost his memories on Earth. It's lucky that this [[Caminus (planet)|Camien]] has the skills to back up her stubborn determination and give the [[Decepticon]] [[Seeker (Cyberverse)|Seekers]] a fly for their money! <ref>[https://transformers.hasbro.com/en-us/brands/cyberverse Character bios] at the official ''Cyberverse'' website</ref>

==Fiction==
===''Cyberverse'' cartoon===
{{voiceactor|[[Sophia Isabella]] (English), [[Aoi Yuki]] (Japanese)|[[Alice Bauer]] (German, first voice), [[Melanie Isakowitz]] (German, second voice), [[Cristiana Rossi]] (Italian), [[Andrea Makay]] (Hungarian), [[Ludivine Deworst]] (French), [[Amalia Cantarero]] (Castilian Spanish), [[Jahel Morga]] (Latin-American Spanish)}}
An immigrant to Cybertron from [[Caminus (planet)|Caminus]], Windblade's [[Cityspeaker]] talents gave her the ability to telepathically contact and communicate with other Transformers through her mind. {{storylink|Cube (episode)|Cube}} Windblade was good friends with [[Chromia (Cyberverse)|Chromia]] before she left Caminus, {{storylink|Maccadam's}} and upon arriving on Cybertron she initially fell in with the egotistical [[Starscream (Cyberverse)|Starscream]] and his [[Seeker (Cyberverse)|Seeker]] friends. The group attended a [[Cube (sport)|cube]] match in [[Iacon (polity)|Iacon]], where Windblade first met [[Bumblebee (Cyberverse)|Bumblebee]] after the yellow 'bot disguised himself to get into the stadium. After Bumblebee ran afoul of stadium security, Windblade contacted him telepathically and helped him sneak back into the stadium. After helping Bumblebee foil Starscream's plan to ruin the game with a tampered cube, Bumblebee invited her to meet some of his friends at his favorite bar, [[Maccadam's Old Oil House|Maccadam's]]. {{storylink|Cube (episode)|Cube}} After rubbing shoulders with both [[Optimus Prime (Cyberverse)|Optimus]] and [[Megatron (Cyberverse)|Megatron]], Windblade met the [[Maccadam|bartender]], who baffled both her and Bumblebee with some cryptic advice. {{storylink|Maccadam's}} During these early times on Cybertron, Windblade came to see [[Mount Helix]] as one of her favorite places to be. {{storylink|Ghost Town}}

Some time later, following the rise of Megatron and his [[Decepticon]]s early and the start of the war, {{storylink|Megatron Is My Hero}} Windblade — now an Autobot — visited Maccadam's, where Chromia unsuccessfully tried to convince her to return to Caminus. Windblade was skeptical when Bumblebee introduced her to [[Drift (Cyberverse)|a potential Decepticon deserter]], though the conversation was cut short when Megatron broke into the bar. {{storylink|Maccadam's}}

At some point after the loss of Bumblebee's voice, it became clear that Megatron sought to seize control of the [[AllSpark]]. Windblade was one of the Autobots who took part in the battle to eject the artifact from Cybertron, taking down both Starscream and [[Shadow Striker (Cyberverse)|Shadow Striker]] and opening the path for Bumblebee to activate the [[space bridge]] that would take the AllSpark offworld. {{storylink|Allspark (Cyberverse)|Allspark}} Optimus soon announced his intention to leave Cybertron and recover the artifact, and though Windblade tried to persuade Bumblebee to stay with her on Cybertron, he too joined the crew of the ''[[Ark (Cyberverse)|Ark]]''. {{storylink|Memory (Cyberverse)|Memory}} On the day of Bumblebee's departure, the two friends visited the ruins of Maccadam's, and were surprised to find that the bar was still open. Maccadam poured them a drink and told the pair that, although they would be separated, they would always remain friends... and informed them that, one day in the future, they would need to find "the king of the dinosaurs." {{storylink|Maccadam's}} Feeling reassured about her friendship with Bumblebee, she then joined him when [[Grimlock (Cyberverse)|Grimlock]] called the yellow 'bot to the ''Ark'''s launch site. There, Windblade finally bade her friend farewell. {{storylink|Memory (Cyberverse)|Memory}} However, she remained in touch long enough to learn that [[Ratchet (Cyberverse)|Ratchet]] had been able to repair Bumblebee's damaged [[voice box]].

[[File:Cyberverse-s1e1-Fractured-Windblade-hugs-Bumblebee.jpg|thumb|left|300px|[[:File:Primebumblebeehug.jpg|She isn't the first Autobot to hug him.]]]]

In Prime's absence, Windblade and the other Autobot stragglers fought on, though it soon became clear that the heroes were outnumbered by the Decepticons. Eventually, it became clear that the ''Ark'' itself had been lost, and when Megatron realized that the ''Ark'' had tracked the AllSpark to the distant world of [[Earth]], the Autobots soon caught word of this revelation. [[Perceptor (Cyberverse)|Perceptor]] was eventually able to repair Cybertron's space bridge, and Windblade travelled to Earth to search for the Autobot starship — a one-way trip, as the space bridge exploded behind her.

Windblade spent a long time on Earth, fruitlessly searching for the AllSpark or the ''Ark,'' until she eventually chanced across [[Bumblebee (Cyberverse)|Bumblebee]] on Earth, rescuing him from almost falling off a cliff. She soon learned that Bumblebee had suffered damage, and was unable to remember her or his mission on Earth. The [[Decepticon]] [[Thundercracker (Cyberverse)|Thundercracker]] soon showed up to rain on their parade, and bested Windblade with ease. The [[Seeker (Cyberverse)|Seeker]] then tried to kill Bumblebee using Windblade's sword, but failed thanks to Bumblebee momentarily paralyzing him with his [[Stinger (weapon)|stinger]]. Windblade then blew the Decepticon off to parts unknown with her fans. She then attempted to connect with Bumblebee's mind and jog his memories with a [[cortical psychic patch]], but this procedure failed and left the two [[Autobot]]s unconscious after subjecting them to severe pain. {{storylink|Fractured}}
[[File:Cyberverse-s1e2-Memory-Windblade-in-Bumblebee's-mind.jpg|thumb|300px|I will tolerate no reenactment, whether it's ironic or sincere, of the Patrick Swayze/Demi Moore pottery scene in ''Ghost''.]]
The cortical psyshic patch also released a powerful energy pulse, alerting the Decepticons Thundercracker and [[Nova Storm (Cyberverse)|Nova Storm]] to their location. Windblade, after coming to, immediately took to the skies to engage Nova Storm in a dogfight. She then instructed [[Stinger (weapon)|stinger]]-deprived Bumblebee to retreat to a nearby mineshaft, after which she used her detachable turbines to bury both Decepticons under a large pile of rubble. She then set off to found the Decepticons' ship, which she thought could be used as additional computing power for the cortical patch procedure, but discovered that Bumblebee had rushed in without listening to her carefully detailed plan about how to infiltrate the ship. Entering the bridge, she set up the cortical patch again to enter Bumblebee's memories, using her [[Cityspeaker]] skills to guide him through the process. While Windblade hoped to recover the current location of the Ark, Bumblebee only managed to recover a small fragmented memory detailing the ship's launch... and memories of Windblade herself, finally recognizing her as his old friend. The happy moment was unexpectedly cut short when [[Starscream (Cyberverse)|Starscream]] contacted the ship to know how his scouts were doing... only for Bumblebee to immediately seize the communicator and blow their cover, to Windblade's chagrin. {{storylink|Memory (Cyberverse)|Memory}}

After their cover was blown, Windblade and Bumblebee hijacked the [[Decepticon scout ship]] to get away, setting a course through a nearby mountain range. Bumblebee's piloting skills were so bad the scout ship nearly crashed into two mountains and caused the [[decapitation]] of a tree so Windblade told Bumblebee to land near some radio towers, even though there was only one visible. She also told Bumblebee that she would do all of the flying which made the little scout a bit sad. Later, she once again set up the cortical patch. She told Bumblebee to access the memory of the Allspark to help him remember what it was. Windblade confirmed Bumblebee's assessment that the Allspark contains infinite life before directing him to a memory which showed how they lost the Allspark. After the memory ended, Windblade reminded Bumblebee that the "awesome guy" was Optimus Prime. Windblade commented on how Bumblebee's memory was repairing itself. {{storylink|Allspark (Cyberverse)|Allspark}}

After the memory had ended, Windblade and Bumblebee had a chat about the other [[Autobot]]s. Windblade tells Bumblebee that they might not have woken up and were still on the Ark.{{storylink|The Journey}}

[[File:Cyberverse-s1e5-Whiteout-Windblade-knocked-down-by-seekers.jpg|thumb|left|300px|"We want your lunch money!"]]

After going through Bumblebee's memory, Windblade noticed the mountains in the background and after coming to the conclusion that it was in the Himalayas, decided to check it out without Bumblebee. She found the stasis pod Bumblebee had emerged from and his blaster, but was ambushed by three [[Seeker (Cyberverse)|Seekers]] and captured. She was interrogated for information on the location of Optimus Prime and the other Autobots, but managed to defeat Thundercracker, Nova Storm and Slipstream before returning to the ship and giving Bumblebee back his blaster.{{storylink|Whiteout}}

Windblade was in Bumblebee's memories, trying to convince the young scout that Megatron wasn't a hero, telling Bumblebee that he was lying about what he said. Windblade did not want Bumblebee to relive a memory in which Megatron tore his voice box but he did so anyway. Bumblebee did seem fine after watching the memory, talking about how Megatron couldn't stop him from talking, Repeatedly saying the word 'talk'. This got Windblade laughing a bit, and she jokingly told him to in response. {{storylink|Megatron Is My Hero}}

While Windblade was trying to find some Decepticon intel on the ship's computer, Bumblebee discovered a glowing cube that he couldn't identify. Windblade decided to help the young scout remember the game by patching into his mind and showing him the memory. After the memory ended, Bumblebee suggested that they should play a round of Cube on Earth. Unfortunately, neither of them remembered how to play the sport.{{storylink|Cube (episode)|Cube}}

Another failed search to Windblade retreating to the shuttle after contacting Bumblebee... only to find Acid Storm and Thrust attempting to board. Fighting off the seekers, she found Bee exploring his memories, forcing her to pilot the shuttle in a dogfight against the seekers and an ever-relentless Slipstream. She escaped by moving into orbit just as Bee woke up. {{storylink|Terminal Velocity}} After failing to help Bumblebee rediscover some of his wartime prowess the physical way, Windblade decided to help him by jogging his memory. After looking through two memories, the two friends returned to their sparring. {{storylink|Shadowstriker (episode)|Shadowstriker}}

During an outer space battle with Slipstream and two Deception warships, Windblade was surprised when Bumblebee mentioned visiting Maccadam's. After landing nearby [[Bumblebee Cave|a Bumblebee looking mountain cave]], she entered Bumblebee's mindscape. She was baffled after the memory as in that memory as Maccadam had predicted the two of them hiding in a cave. The next memory also baffled her as in that memory, Maccadam had predicted Bumblebee shooting down a Deception warship. After the final memory, Windblade and Bumblebee concluded that they had to find the "king of the dinosaurs". {{storylink|Maccadam's}}

[[File:Cyberverse - Sabotage - It's all Shockwave's fault.jpg|thumb|right|300px|"Just pretend my hand's a chestburster, I'll use some CGI during post-production
to make my hand look like a chestburster."]]

While trying to find the "king of the dinosaurs", Windblade was ejected out of Bumblebee's mindscape by Shockwave who masqueraded as her. She attempted to salvage the connection, only for the ship's autopilot to suddenly turn on and start flying to an abandoned air hanger. She endd up getting captured by Slipstream and her seekers, though she was able to outsmart Thundercracker and Nova Storm, she couldn't escape the ship which was being controlled by Slipstream. After Bumblebee escaped his mind and arrived at the ship, Windblade told him to press the red button, which caused the ship to fly into the hanger and self destruct. While fleeing from Slipstream and her seekers, Windblade lamented at how they no longer had a way to enter Bumblebee's memories though Bumblebee himself was just happy to be alive. {{storylink|Sabotage}}

The Cybertronians eventually became known to humankind, but not before Windblade tried to blend in by transforming into her jet mode on a public road. She later fought with Megatron, a battle that involved Megatron being caught on camera tripping over a powerline. {{storylink|Sea of Tranquility}}

{{Charfictionstub| {{storylink|Teletraan-X (episode)|Teletraan-X}} {{storylink|Matrix of Leadership (episode)|Matrix of Leadership}} {{storylink|Siloed}} {{storylink|The Extinction Event}} {{storylink|Awaken Sleeping Giants}} {{storylink|Eruption}} {{storylink|Sea of Tranquility}} {{storylink|Bad Moon Rising}} {{storylink|The Visitor}} {{storylink|Trials}} {{storylink|Dark Birth}} {{storylink|Parley}} {{storylink|Starscream's Children}} {{storylink|Spotted}} {{storylink|Secret Science}} {{storylink|Infinite Vendetta}} {{storylink|I Am The Allspark}} {{storylink|Escape From Earth}} {{storylink|Party Down}} {{storylink|Wiped Out}} {{storylink|Ghost Town}} {{storylink|Perfect Storm}} {{storylink|The Crossroads}}}}

====Alternate universe====
{{charstubfiction|{{storylink|The Crossroads}}}}
{{--}}

==Games==
===''Transformers: Battlegrounds''===
{{voiceactor|[[Jessica DiGiovanni]] (English)|[[Simona Pahl]] (German), [[Valentina Favazza]] (Italian), [[Susana Leis]] (Spanish)}}
{{charfictionstub|{{storylink|Transformers: Battlegrounds}}}}

==Toys==
===''Cyberverse''===
[[File:Cyberverse-Scout-Class-Windblade.jpg|thumb|300px|How the hell are the jets from Macross okay with this, I can't see diddly!]]
*'''Windblade''' (Scout Class, 2018)
**''Action Attack'': "Turbine Thrash"
:Scout Class Windblade is a Legends-sized mold that transforms from robot into a <s>Gerwalk mode</s> "transformational mode" jet. She also features a "Turbine Thrash" Action Attack gimmick, which pops out light blue effects when activated.

{{-}}{{anchor|Warrior}}
[[File:Cyberverse-Warrior-Windblade.jpg|thumb|300px]]
*'''Windblade''' (Warrior Class, 2018)
**''TakaraTomy name'': '''Wing Slicer Windblade'''
**''TakaraTomy release date'': July ??? [[2019]]
**''TakaraTomy ID number'': '''TCV-03'''
**''Action Attack'': "Cyclone Strike"

:Released as part of the second wave of Cyberverse Warrior Class lineup, Windblade is a Deluxe-sized figure that converts from robot to jet and back. Her "Cyclone Strike" Action Attack gimmick is activated by sliding the nosecone assembly on her back up and down, which, if done quickly enough, causes the front half of her wings to swing upwards. This triggers a mechanism that spins the front halves of the turbines on the wings.

:Care must be taken to position her arms properly, however, or they might impede movement of the turbines. Unlike most Warrior Class toys, and despite the depiction in her stock photo, Windblade's head cannot swivel to any great degree without trimming her collar, which allows it to freely pivot on a loose mushroom joint.

:Windblade sports 5mm compatible hands and a 3mm hole behind her waist, though as a panel from jet mode blocks it in robot mode (without rotating it), it mainly serves to mount the jet mode.

:Windblade is the first and only Warrior Class figure released for TakaraTomy's Japanese markets.
{{--}}

==Merchandise==
===''Nezha: Transformers''===
[[File:Nezha-toy WindbladeBrickset.jpg|thumb|300px]]
*'''Wind Blade''' {{sic}} (Building brick set, 2019)
**''Set number'': '''QL1677'''
**''Pieces'': '''427'''
:Released by [[Xiaomi]] as part of the Chinese-centric ''[[Nezha: Transformers (toyline)|Nezha: Transformers]]'' toyline, this Windblade is a Lego-style building kit that can be assembled into either an approximately 10-inch tall poseable robot mode or a jet mode. Similar to how most ''[[Kre-O]]'' figures work, Windblade must be disassembled and reassembled in order to change from one mode to the next.
{{--}}

==Notes==
[[File:Quidd-evergreen-Windblade-robot-mode.jpg|thumb|upright=1.3|]]
*As with some of the ''Cyberverse'' cast, Windblade's design draws on the [[evergreen]] design (at right) also used for her [[Windblade (G1)|Generation 1 counterpart]]. However, the design has a ''lot'' of changes to the point where it is not immediately obvious that it is based on the evergreen design more than one of the other, similar Windblade designs. Among the changes include a color-blocked paint job, larger optics, and retractable wings.
*Sophia Isabella's portrayal of Windblade is an imitation of [[Kristy Wu]]'s performance as [[Windblade (RID)|''Robots in Disguise'' Windblade]].

===Foreign names===
*''Japanese:'' '''Windblade''' (ウインドブレード ''Uindoburēdo'')
*''Mandarin:'' '''Fēngrèn''' (China, 风刃, "Windblade")

==See also==
{{OtherVersions
|charname=Windblade
|disambig=Windblade (disambiguation)
|body=
*[[Windblade (G1)|Windblade]], the fan-built Autobot [[cityspeaker]] from [[The Transformers (franchise)|Generation 1]].
*[[Windblade (RID)|Windblade]], the Autobot on a mission from [[Primus|God]] from the [[Aligned continuity family]].}}

==References==
{{reflist}}

[[Category:Caminus]]
[[Category:Cityspeakers]]
[[Category:Cyberverse Autobots]]
[[Category:Female Transformers]]
[[Category:Nezha Autobots]]