MediaWiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Megatron (WFC)

2020-08-04T22:09:21Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: /* Page name */ new section

==Name==
I haven't read Exodus, so I don't know if this is in there, but the Transformers.com timeline says that in addition to being a gladiator, Megatron's standard job was laboring in the mines as a worker designated D-16. http://www.hasbro.com/transformers/en_US/play/details.cfm?guid=7fd5ecd9-19b9-f369-1041-a7635be83172
: Yes, that's in ''Exodus.'' Everything in the timeline is either from the book or what the book was written from, depending on whichever came first. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:38, 3 July 2010 (EDT)

== Autobot? ==

If he was once good, shouldn't there be an Autobot simbol on the top of the page?—[[User:TOM|TOM]] 15:26, 13 January 2011 (EST)
: No where on this page does it describe Megatron as a former Autobot. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:40, 13 January 2011 (EST)
:: He fought along side Optimus Prime during the Great War against Decepticons, before he became one himself. Sounds like an Autobot.--[[User:TOM|TOM]] 18:59, 20 March 2011 (EDT)
:::I recalthat they fought together, but not that they fought "Decepticons" together. A very important distinction. Goingby WfC they both fought the corrupt system together, then split when Megs formed the Cons and Prime formed the Autobots. Don't recal Prime contridicting that.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:16, 20 March 2011 (EDT)

== Paring it down ==

I should probably say something here about the edit I just made. I've said it in the past, but I often feel that any fiction sections that are created as the fiction is being produced (so, for the wiki, that's basically the Animated and Prime cartoons) have a great tendency to be overlong, not through anyone's fault, but simply because they're built up week on week, with isolated, perhaps-a-bit-too-detailed episode summaries being added one after the other. Megatron has one of the smallest Prime cartoon sections, since he's only been in like two-thirds of the episodes, but it still seemed ''really'' long for a single 26-episode season with potentially three or four more seasons to be added to it yet as time goes by, and it's nothing compared to some of the Animated ones - and that just sort of sticks out to me, when series of greater length that are written up retroactively after they're done tend to read more quickly and concisely. Obviously, if what I've done offends society and the children, we can revert and I won't object... but frankly, I'm annoyed I couldn't shave off more than 2500 characters. (That WFC section is pretty gigantic too, honestly.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 09:32, 13 October 2011 (EDT)
: We are twins who share a mind. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:53, 13 October 2011 (EDT)

== Cyberverse commander ==

Have the CV Commander infront of me. I see no pack-in file card. A few other things; his swordy bladey thingy doesn't peg in to his vehicle mode as per the instructions- hole is too small on the engine/ fusion cannon. This may be just on mine but i'm bringing it up as a potential mold problem if others have it too. Also, the side of the box has 2/004 printed on it. Does this denote that he is the 2nd out of 4 in the CV Commander line? Surely there'll be more than 4 of them? [[User:Durge|Durge]] 17:56, 2 February 2012 (EST)
:He is number 004 in series 2 of Cyberverse, in all likelihood. Either series 1 is the Legions, or series 1 was DOTM. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:34, 2 February 2012 (EST)

== Trivia update? ==
I was just wondering, is this:

''"Optimus Prime's recollections in Darkness Rising have him and Megatron fighting side-by-side at the start of the Great War. This is the first time a Megatron has been involved in a Great War that he didn't start, never mind one where he used to be a goodie."''

...strictly accurate anymore?

I'm not saying that I'm actually sure it ''isn't'', and I freely admit that I've not read the two novels, but based on what is said in [[One Shall Rise, Part 3]] and what this page seems to be saying further up, my impression is that Megatron pretty much DID start the war, and was only ever rather debatably a "goodie", depending on how one views his early political idealism. The extent to which Orion/Optimus and Megs fought side-by-side still appears a bit murky to my understanding, and it seems likewise debatable as to whether any such unity was during the Great War proper. Doesn't Ratchet seem to indicate that this took place before either faction really existed, ergo likely before the Great War ''per se''? But yeah, I'm quite unclear on this, so I didn't want to just go ahead and delete/alter it myself.
- [[User:TrapRat|TrapRat]] 02:59, 26 February 2012 (EST)

== Possible Trivia ==

Anyone else think the ''Transformers Prime'' Megatron's jet mode resembles a K-Wing from the Star Wars Expanded Universe?

Jet Mode: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:Tfprimemegatronjet.jpg
K-Wing: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:K-Wing_NEGVV.jpg

[[User:DS14A|DS14A]] 01:56, 23 March 2012 (EDT)
:Not especially. It's a pretty generic design, it resembles several Klingon vessels as much as it does that K-Wing. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 10:12, 23 March 2012 (EDT)

== galvatron ==

do you guys think this megatron will be reborn into galvatron?

==Edits==

True, my edit to this page may have been a little lengthy. I was trying to describe Megatron's personality though. Since it probably was too long, I shortened it somewhat; there's no need to revert it entirely.
[[User:Harley Quinn hyenaholic|Harley Quinn hyenaholic]] 10:40, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
==Source of inspiration==
Should we add that Megy kinda looks like [http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Marauder-class_corvette this ship?] [[Special:Contributions/178.66.21.88|178.66.21.88]] 12:15, 30 September 2012 (EDT)
:No, because he also "kinda looks like" half a dozen different ships from the Star Trek franchise. This isn't a particularly distinctive design, LOTS of scifi ships have this general appearance. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:36, 30 September 2012 (EDT)

== Bird of Prey ==

You all do know that his vehicle mode totally is a Romulan/Klingon Bird of Prey. {{unsigned|Burningsirius}}
:Er, no, it doesn't look like a Bird of Prey to me. I mean, it has an elongated nose section and downward-pointing wings, but that's about it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 23:49, 15 December 2012 (EST)

== Page name ==

I may be missing information on this, but should this page not be called Megatron (Aligned) instead? I wish to also propose an administrative sweep fixing all (a Prime), (WFC), (FOC), (Exodus), etc into (Aligned), although with certain expeditions. [[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]])

Talk:Nexus Prime

2020-04-12T03:53:34Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: /* Link */ new section

==Naming Issues==
I wouldn't mind not increasing traffic to that, um, non-Transformers related website. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 20:18, 30 May 2009 (EDT)
:Well, Critical Name Research Failure ''is'' the sort of thing we tend to find news-worthy, and I'm not sure how else to cite it... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 20:27, 30 May 2009 (EDT)
::As a side note, at least as of today this wiki page has pulled ahead of the, shall we say, "original" Nexus Maximus page. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 05:24, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

So..... ummm in the Club comics he is a Prime now (Nexus Prime) ....... there goes all the jokes.... ho huh........ [[User:Protoman|Protoman]] 12:07, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
: Source please. Let's make this better, £5 if it's not leaked.[[User:Metal Gear NOIZE|Metal Gear NOIZE]] 14:26, 27 September 2009 (EDT)
::Er, his source is probably just what he said it was: the club comics. Specifically Reunification: Part 5, which according to the TFCC webpage the first-class subscribers should be getting right now. (As a lowly third-classer, I have to wait.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:30, 27 September 2009 (EDT)

::::Yup 's from the mag. And to officially raise the question, didn't we establish that "in fiction" names trump "on package" names for the wiki? That would mean this should move, Yes? (Or does unintentionally hilarious names trump in fiction names?) --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 07:29, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::I'd speculate that, hilarious name or no, they were probably always intending to call him "Nexus Prime" in the story itself (since being one of the 13, he should ''be'' a Prime), and just had to make a concession for the toy since Hasbro are persnickity about what "Prime" gets put on. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 08:29, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

:::::I always thought it was the other way around... toy trumps fiction as the official name. (Or is that only for which franchise to put people in?) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 09:05, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::Naw, it's always been fiction-first. "Beast Changer", and all that. I don't think we have anyone at their toy-name if they have a different in fiction. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 10:19, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::Yup, fiction trumps toys for us, always has. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:19, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::That's... not true, really, otherwise we wouldn't have "[[Brawl (Movie)]]" or "[[Jolt (Movie)]]", neither of which I think should be moved. It's just exceedingly rare for the circumstances to arise where a toy is named first then the later fiction decides to name them something else (or, well, Brawl's bizarre case). In almost every instance, the fiction goes with the names pre-set by the toys, since ''in most instances'' the toys come first and fiction is crafted around it. Toys of characters developed for fiction first are a fairly recent and still pretty rare occurrence, and obviously, they're going to shoot for the name the character was given first when they name the toy. Nexus here, we know the backstory that they always wanted "Nexus Prime", and Hasbro's recent reluctance to "water down" the Prime designation, so the current name here I'm okay with. It's not a 100% every-time rule... it's just ''generally'' the way naming works in this franchise based on real-world chronology... which I consider the bigger trump card, and even that's not absolute. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 13:06, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::You are of course correct. I guess the actual policy is something more akin to 'the most prominent name for the character,' taking toys and fiction and out of universe info into account.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 22:19, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::Not particularly - surely, to pick one example, [[Overhaul (Cybertron)]] would be at [[Leobreaker]] if that was the case, yes? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 23:34, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::What if the wiki were more flexible where you didn't have to pick one name to be the most prominent to be the name of the article. There would be a list of valid names and whatever one you searched for or linked from would appear at the top of the article with a list of other valid names directly below it. That would be cool. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 23:59, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::You mean like, if there were some way where if you typed in "Leobreaker" you were somehow... redirected... to Overhaul? My god, it's brilliant. :D [[User:Hooper X|Hooper_X]] 10:42, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I believe he's looking more for something like typing in "Leobreaker" and you'd be directed to Overhaul's page, but "Leobreaker" would still show as the page title, with "Overhaul" and any other redirects listed below it. Having the page title change like that isn't really that good an idea, though. When you get redirected, there's already a note at the top saying so, indicating that the wiki didn't ignore what you typed. As for having all the page redirects listed...well, what for? If you've already found the page, you don't need them. They'd just take up space, I'd think.--[[User:Apcog|Apcog]] 11:07, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Uh, no, I meant what I said. Meaning "if we went purely on prominence, surely the Overhaul page should be moved to Leobreaker" (and I was using that as '''an''' example, not as the only example. There are other pages at perhaps less-prominent-but-later names). - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 17:25, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

::::::::::::::Yes, there is a little note saying that you were redirected, like from "Leobreaker" to "Overhaul" but that doesn't stop big discussions as to the all-important big name at the top of the article. It forces the wiki to take a stance as to which name is more prominent. The list of other names is to immediately let the reader who is on the "Leobreaker" page know that there is not also a separate "Overhaul" page. It might not be practical, but it would allow the wiki to be more neutral to such things. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 11:40, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::I don't know what possible benefit we would get from this.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 12:50, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I do. We'd never have to argue about which name takes primacy. Do we file Animated [[Wasp]] under Wasp or Waspinator? Doesn't matter, whichever you type in is what the name on the top of the page says. Nexus Prime or Nexus Maximus? Doesn't matter. Elita-1 or Blackarachnia? V.V.H. or Variable Voltage Harness? Brigadoon or Flying island? Optimus Prime or Orion Pax or Optronix? As long as there's no debate about whether a name is valid or not, then we can avoid a lot of handwringing by making a little code. I think it's a great idea. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:05, 30 September 2009 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Regardless of how beneficial or not it would be, I don't think it would even be possible, since the wiki database uses the title of an article in storing it, and I doubt there's any way to feasibly tie redirects to a main article in terms of rewriting the HTML. I have a feeling it'd be a lot more than just "a little code". You'd pretty much have to rewrite the database schema itself to enable it to store aliases of some sort for a page. And then I'm not sure how you could make it so that redirects=stored as aliases.
:::::::::::::::::But IANAP (I Am Not a Programmer), so take this with a few grains of salt. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 18:22, 30 September 2009 (EDT)

Nexus Prime seems to be his true form, does that mean he is like the opposite of a combiner, a disassemble-er? Instead of the minds of several Transformers gestalting into one, his mind fractures into five? Oh, and I vote for the move. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 12:14, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

Remember, we have a 30-day grace period enforced before we add Club Magazine material. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:06, 28 September 2009 (EDT)
:Correct, but surely this doesn't extend to something as simple as rectifying a name?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 21:15, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

The link at the bottom, "posted an image" leads to a password protected site. [[Special:Contributions/76.252.60.224|76.252.60.224]] 01:16, 19 June 2010 (EDT)
: We are well aware. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:26, 19 June 2010 (EDT)

==Official Configuration==
"Fun Publications stated at BotCon 2009 that the official limb arrangement for Nexus Prime is that of the configuration in his instructions. With Landquake as the right arm, Topspin as the left arm, Breakaway as the right leg, and Skyfall as the left leg. Why he was depicted in a different arrangement in the caverns around the Caretaker no one knows."

Considering that his comic setup ended up being Landquake=right arm, Topspin=right leg, Breakaway=left arm, Skyfall=left leg, and I don't have access to his instructions or BotCon 09 info, I have no idea if this is an editing goof on our part (and the BotCon 09/instruction info needs fixing), or if ''both'' the BotCon 09/instruction setup and the Caretaker setup ended up not matching the comic. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 12:47, 11 February 2010 (EST)
:Wouldn't this note be better put in the toy description? Not to mention redoing the photo to actually match it. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 12:50, 11 February 2010 (EST)

== Link ==

I really think the link to the site the "orriginal" Nexus Maximus is sold should be removed. Any child could come here and click it.--[[User:Primo|Primo]] 18:46, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
: Any young child on the Internet should be under direct supervision. If not, then they get to learn something neat. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:54, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
:There's a disclaimer. That should suffice. What are you, the morality police? First Knock Out, now this. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:55, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
::I can't wait for them to find the Kiss Player stuff! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:57, 10 April 2011 (EDT)
:::I believe I actually bolded the "not safe for work" part a few weeks ago due to similar concerns. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 03:56, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
::::I have absolutely no way of saying this without incriminating myself, but the, erm, item in question is discontinued anyway. --[[User:King Starscream|King Starscream]] 14:50, 18 February 2013 (EST)

== HOW Do We Work This? ==

So... Exiles/Aligned Nexus has a lot of Facets of his appearance, nature, components and all that DO NOT match up to the version we see in the Fun Pub stuff. I know we're keeping the Thirteen to the one page cause of the singularity stuff. (Even if that doesn't apply to Aligned). So my question is... Is everyone OK if I pull all the Fun Pub Specific stuff down from the opening to the appropriate fiction section and then add the Exiles stuff to that fiction section. That seems the way we'll have to go if we want to keep them one page AND want the opening bio to be universal and continuity non-specific which is what we shoot for. Yes?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 15:10, 11 October 2011 (EDT)
:I'm wondering if we need separate pages for (Prime) Clocker, Mainspring, Chaindrive, Pinion, and Cannonspring. I mean, [[Skyfall (Cybertron)|Skyfall]] and friends had several years worth of Fun Pub stories to develop as individuals, not to mention their own toys / images that could fill up their pages. Nexus Prime's (Prime) components, though, only appeared in this single novel, as varying levels of background character, with little to no description of their appearances or even alt modes. Is there anything about them that couldn't just be contained in the ''Exiles'' fiction section, with some redirects? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] 16:20, 18 November 2011 (EST)
::The individual components have their own names and they did things in fiction. I think they deserve their own pages. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:29, 18 November 2011 (EST)

==Split==
Nexus Prime from the pre-Aligned multiverse and Nexus Prime from Exiles are different characters and should have been split long ago. Just because it took us forever to concede that Alpha Trion needed to be split doesn't mean splitting Nexus Prime should be dragged out forever. -[[User:LV|LV]] ([[User talk:LV|talk]]) 10:43, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
:Where would IDW Nexus go in that case, though? He (obviously) couldn't go on the Aligned article, but yet he's also not a multiversal demi-god directly born to Primus. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 11:33, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
::The real answer is "then probably none of them are actually multiversal singularities and without Aaron in charge that will continue to be the case", but the softer, less-feelings-hurty version is "there are separate Nexus-Prime-the-singularity and Nexus-Prime-the-early-combiner-leader-guy" characters, much like there are two Megatrons in the G1 continuity, one from long before the other. -[[User:LV|LV]] ([[User talk:LV|talk]]) 12:01, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
:::Yeah, this is most likely the best approach at this point. Although I would really hate to see this impact Unicron and Primus' articles too, mostly because they're concepts like Energon and the Matrix that exist throughout TF history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 12:07, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
::::Yeah, in this post-Archer era, I'd be happy with splitting every member of the Thirteen by continuity family (as Alpha Trion is now), and just noting how the multiversal singularity thing used to be true. The only complication would be the ones like Nexus where their multiversal-ness was actually embraced in fiction and you couldn't easily say "this is the Nexus Prime from the ____ continuity family." [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 12:17, 25 October 2014 (EDT)

::::@Escargon: Not really. There are years before any of those bar energon showed up (note even the infamous scan of Optimus' internals in the pre-TFTM G1 cartoon that so clearly failed to show the Matrix), and there was the cartoon origin for the TFs that so clearly had no Primus, and an entirely unrelated origin for Unicron. Even energon was initially just the Decepticons fuel of choice in the cartoon that could be made from anything (Autobots didn't use it until TFTM, and had never heard of it at first! It was ages before any form of it showed up in the Marvel Comics, and even then it never became predominant). Everything else is retcon that tries to prevail some current idea over what was actually said at the time.
::::<nowiki>*is slightly</nowiki> surprised that, in that spirit, no-one tried to link [[energy crystal]]s and [[energon crystal]]s post-Beast Wars...* - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 12:35, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
:::::Well, yeah, I know that, I was attempting to say in reference to that they're importance and relevance to the history of the brand has been mostly unchanged throughout their duration of it, beyond examples like the ones you mentioned. Unicron and Primus still have the same basic concept in Aligned as they do in most of everything else and it seems unecessary to me to split them. Hopefully that makes some kind of sense. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:11, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
::::::Has they stayed the same any more than ''any other'' thing which Keeps Turning Up? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 15:04, 25 October 2014 (EDT)

I just want to say that with the exception of slightly problematic issue of Alpha Trion's inclusion, I see absolutely no conflict between the way the IDW Thirteen have been presented and their being the same ol' multiversal singularities. No, they are not presented as "multiversal demi-gods directly born to Primus," but that is no different than how any of the singularities are presented in stories that aren't ''about'' the multiverse. I see no reason not to think "this is what the Thirteen did when they came to this particular dimension." --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 14:18, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
:"...with the exception of..." In other word, you do see a conflict. - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 15:04, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
::Not in the overall presentation of IDW's 13, is the main point. Alpha Trion being a singularity yet somehow having a Shattered Glass counterpart is a Thing That Would Need Explaining Hint Hint FunPub Writers, but that's it --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 17:22, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
:::I hope Jim Sorenson is making notes of all this. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 17:25, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
::::Who's a whatsis now?--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 11:29, 28 October 2014 (EDT)
:::::Escargon is the biggest fan (say that in Syndrome's voice) of the multiularity singuversal thing. To an extent that would be disturbing if focused on a real person... say, you ;) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 14:17, 28 October 2014 (EDT)

:Indeed. I feel like the IDW 13, presenting a version of the "multiverse 13" that is so clearly drawn from the "Aligned 13" is more evidence than ever for ''not'' splitting them. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:05, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
::The "Aligned 13" are gods, the first Cybertronians. The IDW 13 are not - Alpha Trion explicitly rejects that the term applies to them - and are the ''third'' generation after the Guiding Hand and the Knights of Cybertron. Other than that, how is IDW Nexus any more similar to Club Nexus or Aligned Nexus than Optimus Prime A is from Optimus Prime B? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 15:47, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
:::Seems like it would be more of a case of "Marvel Blaster vs. Sunbow Blaster" than anything to me. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 15:57, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
::::Then at what point do we merge Every Optimus Prime Ever? (Because you know this is where it's heading. Remember the "one true Prime" bit where Optimus woke the Necrotitan?) - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] ([[User talk:SanityOrMadness|talk]]) 16:35, 25 October 2014 (EDT)
I had originally categorized Nexus here as a Classics toy, mistakenly remembering Skyfall first showing up in an FP Classics comic. It was correctly pointed out to me that it was actually a Cybertron story. Regardless, Nexus Prime, in his combined form, first showed up in a Shattered Glass story. This talk page should be moved to that article and this one deleted. -- [[User:Shellspark|Shellspark]] ([[User talk:Shellspark|talk]]) 02:08, 28 October 2014 (EDT)
:The carving—the first fictional indication of Nexus Prime—was in a Classics story. That's what I assumed you were working off. Either way, the history is on this page, so the (SG) one should be deleted and this moved over if we decide to do so. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] ([[User talk:Mimi|talk]]) 02:11, 28 October 2014 (EDT)

== Disambig parenthetical ==

Why's this at (SG)? Surely in the carving in the Classics comic is Nexus's first appearance? Yes, it's not an appearance of the actual guy, but, for instance, movie Sentinel Prime is at (ROTF) because his name was mentioned in ROTF. Is this not an analogous situation? I mean, the first storylink on the article is to the Classics comic, y'know? [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 05:30, 28 October 2014 (EDT)
:Personally, I just feel an article with the SG parenthetical that ISN'T about a negative-polarity evil-universe version of someone is disingenuous and misleading. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:40, 28 October 2014 (EDT)
::And yeah, that too. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 06:51, 28 October 2014 (EDT)
:::This should absolutely be at (Classics) or (Timelines). --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 08:20, 28 October 2014 (EDT)
::::I agree. There's enough justification to support either move, and Classics just makes more sense. Though I'm still not sure I understand why he needs more than one article, given the singularity thing.--[[User:Blackrock|Blackrock]] ([[User talk:Blackrock|talk]]) 09:52, 28 October 2014 (EDT)

== Link ==

"How often does that happen?" should like to Orthia. [[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 23:53, 11 April 2020 (EDT)

Talk:Megatron (G1)/toys

2020-04-02T20:22:11Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: /* Netflix Siege Megatron */ new section

Hi guys.

In addition to my first contribution a while back (the Masterpiece Megs write-up), I've just added a bunch of new stuff I noticed wasn't in there, like Sport Label and also the nontransforming Megatron gunmode accessories included with Masterpiece Prime and Reissue Starscream. I know they're not actual transforming toys per se, but my argument is that:

a] They're official Takara products explicity identified as Megatron, and:

b] since we list nontransforming representations of Megs in ''robot'' mode (revoltech, heroes etc.), it'd be kinda "form-ist" to omit these. Plus, they do technically have moving parts. Kinda...

Hope you guys find it all kosher.

Cheers, [[User:PacifistPrime|PacifistPrime]].

==Question about Megatron toys==

Did anyone know that the G1 Megatron toys were banned in Australia because it looked too much like a real gun? --[[User:Wavage|Wavage]] 8:28 PM, 30 December 2014

== The looks on Henkei Megatron ==

Saw it today, and it has a dull white repaint, save for some silver which probably flakes. It's looks very bland and metaphorically cheap; people are better off with the American version. --[[User:akindofdrifter|akindofdrifter]]

== Optimus Prime Vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle set ==

I saw several of the 'OPVM:TUB' box sets, minus the DVD, this evening at the Dollar General store where I work at. It still has the same packaging as last year's offering; possibly leftovers from Hasbro's warehouse. Still, not a bad idea to send out in light of the soon release of 'TF:ROTF'. - [[User:Zadok Rox|Zadok Rox]] 23:05, 17 May 2009 (EDT)

== "Safety/Lava Bath Megatron" ==

From the [[For safety reasons]] page:
:''As such, it is entirely legal for dealers to sell original G1 Megatron figures, as they are grandfathered in; but any later American release of the toy WOULD have to meet these standards, hence the "Safety/Lava Bath Megatron" toy, which STILL failed to meet these guidelines, as the entire external surface was not (and likely could not be) made from a single color of plastic.''

Any more info on this, since it's not mentioned here (even as a {{tl|canceledtoy}})? - [[User:SanityOrMadness|SanityOrMadness]] 13:25, 23 September 2009 (EDT)
: It was a slide on Hasbro's presentation for one BotCon or another. We weren't allowed to take pictures that year. It was a bright orange and blue-chromed G1 Megatron. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 15:44, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

== Hasbro not re-using Classics Megatron? ==

I've seen a few people on a forum off-handedly mention that Hasbro won't re-use Classics Megatron because even it doesn't meet safety standards any longer. Has this actually been said anywhere, or are these people wackos? -- [[User:Arborday|Arborday]] 23:28, 3 May 2010 (EDT)
* Wow man, if that ''is'' true, then I frakkin' despair. How can NERF guns be legal and Classics Megsy not be ''when he's based on a goddamn NERF gun''..?!? [[User:Rattrapping|Rattrapping]] 21:08, 12 March 2011 (EST)
: Not the mold, the colors. Hasbro said that reissuing Classics Megatron in the colors he originally came out in is no longer feasible. He'd have to be more dayglo and neon. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:09, 12 March 2011 (EST)
:: Well, to answer my original question, where was this said? I've only seen it mentioned a few times, with no one ever questioning the source. It seems something like that would be a bigger deal/more common knowledge, but I don't recall hearing it in a Botcon Q&A or anything like that [[User:Arborday|Arborday]] 00:42, 3 April 2011 (EDT)

== AM Radio ==

Not to spoil anyone's fun, but I've heard rumors that the gun contains a mic in the back of the ''scope'', not the front of the barrel. Could this be verified, debunked, or what? [[User:TheMZone|TheMZone]] 03:31, 21 October 2010 (EDT)

== G2 colour scheme ==
Just spotted this article and was struck by the resemblance to Megatron's G2 colours - http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/02/language-lesson-anglo-french-forces - I don't know if green and purple camo is specifically a French thing or whether it's more common than that? -- Emvee (not signed in at work)
:Wha? That tank is in greens, blacks and browns. I think your monitor needs adjusting. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 09:32, 3 November 2010 (EDT)

== Page edit lock? ==
Why is the toy page locked from editing? {{unsigned|110.33.205.174}} 23:25, 5 November 2010 (EDT)
:It's to prevent it from being vandalized by anonymous users. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 23:40, 5 November 2010 (EDT)
::Sorry, forgot to sign before. Why is this page particularly prone to vandalization?[[Special:Contributions/110.33.205.174|110.33.205.174]] 00:12, 6 November 2010 (EDT)
:::It was locked back in July because someone kept adding WFC Megatron's toy to the page, even though it's a representation of Prime Megatron. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 18:01, 6 November 2010 (EDT)

== ATB Megatron ==
I was just wondering if the unreleased G2 Megs stealth bomber shouldn't be listed as "ATB Megatron", or at least contain some acknowledgment that this is the name most commonly recognized for this toy? I'm pretty sure it even lists "ATB" as part of his name on the toy packaging. Speaking of which, shouldn't this entry also contain some mention of the fact that very limited boxed samples of this toy were actually produced (and pictures exist), even though it wasn't actually "released"...? Given the obscure nature of this info, I didn't want to just add it without asking first, though. [[User:Rattrapping|Rattrapping]] 21:21, 12 March 2011 (EST)

== Masterpiece face ==

Does the brow of the toy move? Pictures of his face vary from him looking more or less menacing. [[User:Sarujo|Sarujo]] 16:19, 21 May 2011 (EDT)

== Microphone Megs. ==

I don't wanna be a wetblanket here, and I love the humor of the "barrel in mouth" microphone as much as the next guy, but I do not believe that the mic on Radio Megs was on the barrel. From what I've heard, it was located on the back, near where the hammer would be. [[User:TheMZone|TheMZone]] 12:23, 2 September 2011 (EDT)

== You guys are TOTALLY missing a version here. ==

There was, around the time of the Transformers original animated movie, a mailaway "Movie Edition Megatron", as well as Optimus Prime.
It appears to have been the same 1984 released Megatron by Hasbro, except it came in a cardboard box with absolutely no other packaging but its styrofoam. However, exclusively included inside was a certificate where you could write your name on it saying you followed the code (lol?) as well as a Movie Edition circular sticker. Optimus Prime had these identical things as well.

Here's some pics and scans of this version:
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/JINZONINGEN73/JINZO/TRANSFORMERS/NONTOY/tftmcert.jpg
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/JINZONINGEN73/JINZO/TRANSFORMERS/NONTOY/tftmsticker.jpg
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/JINZONINGEN73/JINZO/TRANSFORMERS/NONTOY/tftmsticker002.jpg
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/JINZONINGEN73/JINZO/TRANSFORMERS/NONTOY/megatronbox003.jpg
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/JINZONINGEN73/JINZO/TRANSFORMERS/NONTOY/optimusmegatronbox001.jpg

Oddly enough, it included the red tech specs decoder lens, even though it came to me in the mail with nothing but the cardboard box where tech specs would normally have been. {{unsigned|Nyancatron}}
:Sounds like you ordered it from [[The Autobots Have a Special Mission for:|this]] flyer? You're right in that it isn't mentioned on the toy page, which implies he was first offered as a mailaway with the later '[[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]]' flyer. Feel free to add info about the releases into the listings for the original toys (I don't think they're different enough to warrant a separate listing) - the bonus material doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere on here, and it's always nice to find out new stuff! [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 07:41, 12 February 2013 (EST)

== Purple Megaligator ==

[http://www.soundwavesoblivion.com/techspecs/techsbeastwars.html A translation of his bio] says he "evolved from a Walther P-38 Pistol", so, yes, we know which Megatron he is. I dunno how we want to incorporate that into the articles for the G1 and BW Megatrons, though. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 00:43, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

== Calvin Johnson Megatron Toy Entry ==

Where is the entry for Nike's Calvin Johnson Megatron Figure?
It came exclusively with Purple Nike Football shoes and it was redeco of IDW's Generations Megatron.
[[User:Hyruk | User:Hyruk ]]

== Masterpiece 2.0 ==

This may just be me seeing things, but I'm pretty sure that the Decepticon insignia used on Megatron's second MP is one pulled from the cartoon. All -if not most- Decepticon Masterpiece figures use the 'modern' design rather than the squatter, three-pronged design of the cartoon - so Megs 2.0 is an exception.

I ''think'' --[[User:Nuclearxpotato|Nuclearxpotato]] ([[User talk:Nuclearxpotato|talk]]) 01:50, 25 October 2016 (EDT)
: MP Shockwave came with stickers that included an optional cartoon-Decepticon-logo set. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 02:39, 25 October 2016 (EDT)

== Double Pretender Megatron ==

Reading the entry for the TFSS Pretender, I think there needs to be an edit that the linked ways of getting Megatron and Spacewarp into the shell are not limited to those in the links. When I got my own, I didn't use either method, and it works fine. I think it should just be edited to say "Two possible ways of fitting Megatron and Spacewarp into the shell are . . ." with a note that there are other ways of fitting them inside rather than implying that there are only two ways.

== Gunn not Tenkk Text Change Request ==

I would like to request that someone change all instances referencing "Trukk not munky" as "Gunn not Tankk" for Megatron changed from "Tankk" to "Tenkk", as well as all other "Gunn not X"s change the "X" to a form more resembling the pronunciation like in "munky". For example, "X" in this case would be changed to "Echs". I don't care how unnecessary these changes are and how little the changes would affect the style, I would like them changed. [[User:LucarioNeedsNosecone|LucarioNeedsNosecone]] ([[User talk:LucarioNeedsNosecone|talk]]) 01:45, 30 May 2017 (EDT)

== Stress marks on Titans Return Megatron? ==

Anyone else have some of the peg joints on their TR Megatrons showing stress marks and whitened plastic out of the box? Mine's got a particularly 'good' example of it on his right ankle. The foot is also unfortunately loose as well, perhaps due to the joint. --[[User:NewtypeS3|NewtypeS3]] ([[User talk:NewtypeS3|talk]]) 18:54, 22 November 2017 (EST)

== Netflix Siege Megatron ==

The article says that Megatron and other Netflix series characters are only found in Walmart in Canada and the USA. However, in Canada, I have also seen him in EB Games. [[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 16:22, 2 April 2020 (EDT)

Talk:Decepticon supersoldier

2020-03-22T22:22:17Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

== Appearance ==

I shall be uploading a screenshot for this. I understand it is of subpar quality, but till a better one is seen, I am sure this will suffice and people will understand. I also do not know the proper formatting, feel free to edit it to the normal way.[[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 17:58, 22 March 2020 (EDT)

Update: So I did as much as I could. Again, feel free to tweak it up or remove the picture if subpar, whether in general or by comparison. [[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 18:21, 22 March 2020 (EDT)

Talk:Decepticon supersoldier

2020-03-22T22:21:16Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: /* Appearance */ new section

Picture:
I shall be uploading a screenshot for this. I understand it is of subpar quality, but till a better one is seen, I am sure this will suffice and people will understand. I also do not know the proper formatting, feel free to edit it to the normal way.[[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 17:58, 22 March 2020 (EDT)

== Appearance ==

So I did as much as I could. [[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 18:21, 22 March 2020 (EDT)

Decepticon supersoldier

2020-03-22T22:20:22Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

{{factions|decepticon}}
[[File:The Perfect Decepticons.jpeg |thumb|upright=1.3]]
:''The "Perfect Decepticons" are a [[Decepticon]] group from the [[Transformers: Cyberverse (franchise)|Cyberverse]] [[continuity family]].''
Through [[Vector Sigma]], it is possible to program the [[AllSpark]] to produce a custom designed [[Transformer]] or indeed multiple Transformers. And there is no better example of this than the '''Perfect Decepticons'''. An elite breed of super soldiers, these unflinching, unquestioning and almost animalistic troops live only to serve their master, having no desires of their own.

==Fiction==
===''Cyberverse'' cartoon===
During the [[Great War (Cyberverse)|Great War]], Vector Sigma was seized by the Decepticons with [[Shockwave (Cyberverse)|Shockwave]] being tasked with hacking through its security. When [[Bumblebee (Cyberverse)|Bumblebee]] was caught spying on the scientist, he was brought to [[Megatron (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] revealed that he intended to have the AllSpark produce him a new Decepticon race. {{storylink|Megatron Is My Hero}}

Some 66 million years later, after the [[Ark (Cyberverse)|''Ark'']] had been destroyed by a [[laser snare]], {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron I}} Megatron planned to fish the AllSpark out of the wreckage and create his warriors only for it to be revealed that the [[Autobot]]s had abandoned ship before the attack. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron II}} The later destruction of Vector Sigma throughly undid any chance of Megatron creating his perfect soldiers. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron IV}}

====Alternate universe====
In another reality, [[Megatron X (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] killed [[Optimus Prime (Cyberverse)|Optimus Prime]] in the early stages of the war and claimed the [[Matrix of Leadership]] for himself before he wiped away the Autobots. Once all resistance had been wiped away, Megatron created his perfect race of warriors. Once he had his unquestioning army, Megatron rid himself of all "unnecessary" Decepticons, only [[Astrotrain (Cyberverse)|Astrotrain]] and the [[Insecticon (Cyberverse)|Insecticons]] being known to remain. {{storylink|The Other One}}

After an alternate Megatron had stolen the Matrix, the Perfect Decepticons were sent to the other reality as an advanced guard. {{storylink|Silent Strike}} Proving more than a match for the Autobots and Decepticons, they were defeated only by [[Multiverse|multiversal energy]]. A second wave was sent soon afterwards but they were unceremoniously blasted into [[Transwarp|unspace]] by the native Megatron before Megatron X teleported in and reclaimed his Matrix. Before he could re-insert it into himself, the talisman was plucked by Bumblebee who flew off. Several Perfect Decepticons teleported in to try and retrieve the artifact only to be tackled down by the native Cybertronians. {{storylink|The Other One}}

==Notes==
*The design for the Perfect Decepticons is a homage to [[Tarn (DJD)|Tarn]], the fanatic [[Megatron (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Megatron]] loyalist and leader of the [[Decepticon Justice Division]] in the [[2005 IDW continuity]].

[[Category:Cyberverse Decepticons]]
[[Category:Cyberverse subgroups]]
[[Category:Decepticon subgroups]]
[[Category:Dimension hoppers]]

Decepticon supersoldier

2020-03-22T22:20:02Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

{{factions|decepticon}}
{Noname-designation}
[[File:The Perfect Decepticons.jpeg |thumb|upright=1.3]]
:''The "Perfect Decepticons" are a [[Decepticon]] group from the [[Transformers: Cyberverse (franchise)|Cyberverse]] [[continuity family]].''
Through [[Vector Sigma]], it is possible to program the [[AllSpark]] to produce a custom designed [[Transformer]] or indeed multiple Transformers. And there is no better example of this than the '''Perfect Decepticons'''. An elite breed of super soldiers, these unflinching, unquestioning and almost animalistic troops live only to serve their master, having no desires of their own.

==Fiction==
===''Cyberverse'' cartoon===
During the [[Great War (Cyberverse)|Great War]], Vector Sigma was seized by the Decepticons with [[Shockwave (Cyberverse)|Shockwave]] being tasked with hacking through its security. When [[Bumblebee (Cyberverse)|Bumblebee]] was caught spying on the scientist, he was brought to [[Megatron (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] revealed that he intended to have the AllSpark produce him a new Decepticon race. {{storylink|Megatron Is My Hero}}

Some 66 million years later, after the [[Ark (Cyberverse)|''Ark'']] had been destroyed by a [[laser snare]], {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron I}} Megatron planned to fish the AllSpark out of the wreckage and create his warriors only for it to be revealed that the [[Autobot]]s had abandoned ship before the attack. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron II}} The later destruction of Vector Sigma throughly undid any chance of Megatron creating his perfect soldiers. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron IV}}

====Alternate universe====
In another reality, [[Megatron X (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] killed [[Optimus Prime (Cyberverse)|Optimus Prime]] in the early stages of the war and claimed the [[Matrix of Leadership]] for himself before he wiped away the Autobots. Once all resistance had been wiped away, Megatron created his perfect race of warriors. Once he had his unquestioning army, Megatron rid himself of all "unnecessary" Decepticons, only [[Astrotrain (Cyberverse)|Astrotrain]] and the [[Insecticon (Cyberverse)|Insecticons]] being known to remain. {{storylink|The Other One}}

After an alternate Megatron had stolen the Matrix, the Perfect Decepticons were sent to the other reality as an advanced guard. {{storylink|Silent Strike}} Proving more than a match for the Autobots and Decepticons, they were defeated only by [[Multiverse|multiversal energy]]. A second wave was sent soon afterwards but they were unceremoniously blasted into [[Transwarp|unspace]] by the native Megatron before Megatron X teleported in and reclaimed his Matrix. Before he could re-insert it into himself, the talisman was plucked by Bumblebee who flew off. Several Perfect Decepticons teleported in to try and retrieve the artifact only to be tackled down by the native Cybertronians. {{storylink|The Other One}}

==Notes==
*The design for the Perfect Decepticons is a homage to [[Tarn (DJD)|Tarn]], the fanatic [[Megatron (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Megatron]] loyalist and leader of the [[Decepticon Justice Division]] in the [[2005 IDW continuity]].

[[Category:Cyberverse Decepticons]]
[[Category:Cyberverse subgroups]]
[[Category:Decepticon subgroups]]
[[Category:Dimension hoppers]]

Decepticon supersoldier

2020-03-22T22:19:11Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

{{factions|decepticon}}
{Noname-designation}
[[File:The Perfect Decepticons.jpeg]]
:''The "Perfect Decepticons" are a [[Decepticon]] group from the [[Transformers: Cyberverse (franchise)|Cyberverse]] [[continuity family]].''
Through [[Vector Sigma]], it is possible to program the [[AllSpark]] to produce a custom designed [[Transformer]] or indeed multiple Transformers. And there is no better example of this than the '''Perfect Decepticons'''. An elite breed of super soldiers, these unflinching, unquestioning and almost animalistic troops live only to serve their master, having no desires of their own.

==Fiction==
===''Cyberverse'' cartoon===
During the [[Great War (Cyberverse)|Great War]], Vector Sigma was seized by the Decepticons with [[Shockwave (Cyberverse)|Shockwave]] being tasked with hacking through its security. When [[Bumblebee (Cyberverse)|Bumblebee]] was caught spying on the scientist, he was brought to [[Megatron (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] revealed that he intended to have the AllSpark produce him a new Decepticon race. {{storylink|Megatron Is My Hero}}

Some 66 million years later, after the [[Ark (Cyberverse)|''Ark'']] had been destroyed by a [[laser snare]], {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron I}} Megatron planned to fish the AllSpark out of the wreckage and create his warriors only for it to be revealed that the [[Autobot]]s had abandoned ship before the attack. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron II}} The later destruction of Vector Sigma throughly undid any chance of Megatron creating his perfect soldiers. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron IV}}

====Alternate universe====
In another reality, [[Megatron X (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] killed [[Optimus Prime (Cyberverse)|Optimus Prime]] in the early stages of the war and claimed the [[Matrix of Leadership]] for himself before he wiped away the Autobots. Once all resistance had been wiped away, Megatron created his perfect race of warriors. Once he had his unquestioning army, Megatron rid himself of all "unnecessary" Decepticons, only [[Astrotrain (Cyberverse)|Astrotrain]] and the [[Insecticon (Cyberverse)|Insecticons]] being known to remain. {{storylink|The Other One}}

After an alternate Megatron had stolen the Matrix, the Perfect Decepticons were sent to the other reality as an advanced guard. {{storylink|Silent Strike}} Proving more than a match for the Autobots and Decepticons, they were defeated only by [[Multiverse|multiversal energy]]. A second wave was sent soon afterwards but they were unceremoniously blasted into [[Transwarp|unspace]] by the native Megatron before Megatron X teleported in and reclaimed his Matrix. Before he could re-insert it into himself, the talisman was plucked by Bumblebee who flew off. Several Perfect Decepticons teleported in to try and retrieve the artifact only to be tackled down by the native Cybertronians. {{storylink|The Other One}}

==Notes==
*The design for the Perfect Decepticons is a homage to [[Tarn (DJD)|Tarn]], the fanatic [[Megatron (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Megatron]] loyalist and leader of the [[Decepticon Justice Division]] in the [[2005 IDW continuity]].

[[Category:Cyberverse Decepticons]]
[[Category:Cyberverse subgroups]]
[[Category:Decepticon subgroups]]
[[Category:Dimension hoppers]]

Decepticon supersoldier

2020-03-22T22:17:51Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

{{factions|decepticon}}
{Noname-designation}
{{The Perfect Decepticons.jpeg}}
:''The "Perfect Decepticons" are a [[Decepticon]] group from the [[Transformers: Cyberverse (franchise)|Cyberverse]] [[continuity family]].''
Through [[Vector Sigma]], it is possible to program the [[AllSpark]] to produce a custom designed [[Transformer]] or indeed multiple Transformers. And there is no better example of this than the '''Perfect Decepticons'''. An elite breed of super soldiers, these unflinching, unquestioning and almost animalistic troops live only to serve their master, having no desires of their own.

==Fiction==
===''Cyberverse'' cartoon===
During the [[Great War (Cyberverse)|Great War]], Vector Sigma was seized by the Decepticons with [[Shockwave (Cyberverse)|Shockwave]] being tasked with hacking through its security. When [[Bumblebee (Cyberverse)|Bumblebee]] was caught spying on the scientist, he was brought to [[Megatron (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] revealed that he intended to have the AllSpark produce him a new Decepticon race. {{storylink|Megatron Is My Hero}}

Some 66 million years later, after the [[Ark (Cyberverse)|''Ark'']] had been destroyed by a [[laser snare]], {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron I}} Megatron planned to fish the AllSpark out of the wreckage and create his warriors only for it to be revealed that the [[Autobot]]s had abandoned ship before the attack. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron II}} The later destruction of Vector Sigma throughly undid any chance of Megatron creating his perfect soldiers. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron IV}}

====Alternate universe====
In another reality, [[Megatron X (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] killed [[Optimus Prime (Cyberverse)|Optimus Prime]] in the early stages of the war and claimed the [[Matrix of Leadership]] for himself before he wiped away the Autobots. Once all resistance had been wiped away, Megatron created his perfect race of warriors. Once he had his unquestioning army, Megatron rid himself of all "unnecessary" Decepticons, only [[Astrotrain (Cyberverse)|Astrotrain]] and the [[Insecticon (Cyberverse)|Insecticons]] being known to remain. {{storylink|The Other One}}

After an alternate Megatron had stolen the Matrix, the Perfect Decepticons were sent to the other reality as an advanced guard. {{storylink|Silent Strike}} Proving more than a match for the Autobots and Decepticons, they were defeated only by [[Multiverse|multiversal energy]]. A second wave was sent soon afterwards but they were unceremoniously blasted into [[Transwarp|unspace]] by the native Megatron before Megatron X teleported in and reclaimed his Matrix. Before he could re-insert it into himself, the talisman was plucked by Bumblebee who flew off. Several Perfect Decepticons teleported in to try and retrieve the artifact only to be tackled down by the native Cybertronians. {{storylink|The Other One}}

==Notes==
*The design for the Perfect Decepticons is a homage to [[Tarn (DJD)|Tarn]], the fanatic [[Megatron (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Megatron]] loyalist and leader of the [[Decepticon Justice Division]] in the [[2005 IDW continuity]].

[[Category:Cyberverse Decepticons]]
[[Category:Cyberverse subgroups]]
[[Category:Decepticon subgroups]]
[[Category:Dimension hoppers]]

Decepticon supersoldier

2020-03-22T22:17:23Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

{{factions|decepticon}}
{{Noname-designation}}
{{The Perfect Decepticons.jpeg}}
:''The "Perfect Decepticons" are a [[Decepticon]] group from the [[Transformers: Cyberverse (franchise)|Cyberverse]] [[continuity family]].''
Through [[Vector Sigma]], it is possible to program the [[AllSpark]] to produce a custom designed [[Transformer]] or indeed multiple Transformers. And there is no better example of this than the '''Perfect Decepticons'''. An elite breed of super soldiers, these unflinching, unquestioning and almost animalistic troops live only to serve their master, having no desires of their own.

==Fiction==
===''Cyberverse'' cartoon===
During the [[Great War (Cyberverse)|Great War]], Vector Sigma was seized by the Decepticons with [[Shockwave (Cyberverse)|Shockwave]] being tasked with hacking through its security. When [[Bumblebee (Cyberverse)|Bumblebee]] was caught spying on the scientist, he was brought to [[Megatron (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] revealed that he intended to have the AllSpark produce him a new Decepticon race. {{storylink|Megatron Is My Hero}}

Some 66 million years later, after the [[Ark (Cyberverse)|''Ark'']] had been destroyed by a [[laser snare]], {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron I}} Megatron planned to fish the AllSpark out of the wreckage and create his warriors only for it to be revealed that the [[Autobot]]s had abandoned ship before the attack. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron II}} The later destruction of Vector Sigma throughly undid any chance of Megatron creating his perfect soldiers. {{storylink|Battle For Cybertron IV}}

====Alternate universe====
In another reality, [[Megatron X (Cyberverse)|Megatron]] killed [[Optimus Prime (Cyberverse)|Optimus Prime]] in the early stages of the war and claimed the [[Matrix of Leadership]] for himself before he wiped away the Autobots. Once all resistance had been wiped away, Megatron created his perfect race of warriors. Once he had his unquestioning army, Megatron rid himself of all "unnecessary" Decepticons, only [[Astrotrain (Cyberverse)|Astrotrain]] and the [[Insecticon (Cyberverse)|Insecticons]] being known to remain. {{storylink|The Other One}}

After an alternate Megatron had stolen the Matrix, the Perfect Decepticons were sent to the other reality as an advanced guard. {{storylink|Silent Strike}} Proving more than a match for the Autobots and Decepticons, they were defeated only by [[Multiverse|multiversal energy]]. A second wave was sent soon afterwards but they were unceremoniously blasted into [[Transwarp|unspace]] by the native Megatron before Megatron X teleported in and reclaimed his Matrix. Before he could re-insert it into himself, the talisman was plucked by Bumblebee who flew off. Several Perfect Decepticons teleported in to try and retrieve the artifact only to be tackled down by the native Cybertronians. {{storylink|The Other One}}

==Notes==
*The design for the Perfect Decepticons is a homage to [[Tarn (DJD)|Tarn]], the fanatic [[Megatron (G1)/2005 IDW continuity|Megatron]] loyalist and leader of the [[Decepticon Justice Division]] in the [[2005 IDW continuity]].

[[Category:Cyberverse Decepticons]]
[[Category:Cyberverse subgroups]]
[[Category:Decepticon subgroups]]
[[Category:Dimension hoppers]]

File:The Perfect Decepticons.jpeg

2020-03-22T22:13:33Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: Sonatronus, they new Galvatron uploaded a new version of "File:The Perfect Decepticons.jpeg": Cropped Black Space.

Screenshot of the Perfect ‘Cons fromCyberverse.

File:The Perfect Decepticons.jpeg

2020-03-22T22:12:37Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: Screenshot of the Perfect ‘Cons fromCyberverse.

Screenshot of the Perfect ‘Cons fromCyberverse.

Talk:Decepticon supersoldier

2020-03-22T22:00:05Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

Talk:Decepticon supersoldier

2020-03-22T21:58:58Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: Created page with "I shall be uploading a screenshot for this. I understand it is of subpar quality, but till a better one is seen, I am sure this will suffice and people will understand. ~~~~"

I shall be uploading a screenshot for this. I understand it is of subpar quality, but till a better one is seen, I am sure this will suffice and people will understand. [[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 17:58, 22 March 2020 (EDT)

Talk:Superstring spacebridge

2020-03-21T20:08:47Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: Created page with "Is this probably another name for a Space ridge? ~~~~"

Is this probably another name for a Space ridge? [[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 16:08, 21 March 2020 (EDT)

Talk:Predacon (Prime)

2020-01-13T09:43:26Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: /* Round 2 */

== Kreon Predacons? ==

We count Kreons as their own continuity. But I really feel like the Kreon Predacons are meant to flesh out the Pred numbers. I suppose they don't go here unless they're in aligned? Or can we put all Preds with this faction symbol on the same page, like the Wreckers are. Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
:That's a good question. These guys are explicitly Beast Hunters-branded, but I doubt Hasbro will make a distinction between BH and non-BH Kre-O fiction. My inclination is to leave them off, but it's an imperfect answer necessitated by our wiki's entire way of handling continuities. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:59, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
::Most of our factional pages are cross-continuity. We only have one Decepticon and Autobot page, instead of Autobot (G1), Autobot (Armada), etc, because they're all really the same entity. But unlike how "Autobot" always means the same thing, the "Predacon" faction often means something different, depending on continuity family, whether it's G1, BW, or (now) Aligned. The Autobot and Decepticon pages are lucky enough to not have to have a "franchise-of-origin" disambiguation parenthetical, but Predacon (Prime) is not. ....long story short, I think Kre-O Predacons can go on this page, because this is the page for This Cross-Continuity Iteration Of Predacons. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

::Since it's all evidently under the Beast Hunters umbrella, why not just "Predacon (Beast Hunters)"?--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 21:48, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
:::Because Beast Hunters is a sub-franchise of Prime. The full title is "Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters". -- [[User:Spydersix|spyder]][[User Talk:Spydersix|Use this!]] 22:33, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
::::Except that these new Kre-O sets also sport the Beast Hunters sub-franchise logo. And they said at the NYCC panel that it's gonna be the 2013 theme of not just the Prime franschise but the whole Transformers brand itself. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:42, 16 October 2012 (EDT)

== Members and plot ==

I'm not real clear on what the preferred format is for subgroup pages, so would it be appropriate to have a list of members as they appear in the show/books, and would info on the Predacon's goals that would be spoilers for recent materials be appropriate for the lead, or does it need to remain within a synopsis until the spoilers expire?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:56, 4 December 2012 (EST)
:Well, I went ahead and added the stuff that's already mentioned on the wiki, figuring that can't be too bad. Should Swoop count as a temporary member?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:27, 12 February 2013 (EST)
::I still think we're artificially merging the concepts of the Predacons and the Forged. Being turned into one of the Forged didn't make Swoop a Predacon, nor were the Forged ever stated to all be Predacons. All of the Forged have been modified to be loyal to Shockwave, but we don't really know what else. Ser-Ket and Backbite are the only two that have displayed beast modes.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:40, 12 February 2013 (EST)
:::Oh, I guess I misunderstood the comic book, then. I ''am'' missing #2, so...yeah. Oops!
:::Also, apparently there's some kind of Beast Hunters guidebook written from Shockwave's point of view that's been published. Anyone know if (1) that's kosher for inclusion and (2) the character mentioned within it who is not already on this page is okay to be added? (I don't want to spoil anything that's not already on the wiki)[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:52, 12 February 2013 (EST)
::::That was a pamphlet handed out to folks at ToyFair to hype upcoming releases. As far as I know it's entirely kosher.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:01, 12 February 2013 (EST)
:::::When I asked about that pamphlet, one of the Hasbro presenters said that it was an internal document that was meant to pump the team up for Beast Hunters, and that later it was apparently used as a giveaway in Hong Kong, which they didn't find out about it until it hit the internet. We did not receive it for attending US Toy Fair 2013. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 01:19, 12 February 2013 (EST)
::If...it's not meant to ever be given out in English, and was released officially in Hong Kong...does it loophole back to usable?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 02:30, 12 February 2013 (EST)
:::Well with this information it was certainly intended to be given out in English, just not in North America. Hasbro Asia is still an official channel, and thus it ought to still be kosher. It's not a leak.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 03:14, 12 February 2013 (EST)

In regards to the Forged, the latest description of Rage of the Dinobots seems to indicate that they are Predacons, ''possibly'' that Shockwave is one as well. (Of course, the blurb holds no water next to the comic, but just bringing this up).
:''DINOBOT WAR! GRIMLOCK leads the '''DINOBOTS against SHOCKWAVE's troops'''-and the results won't be pretty! With SWOOP under SER-KET's control, it's an all-or-nothing battle of '''DINOBOT versus PREDACON'''-with the fate of CYBERTRON hanging on every punch, blast, jab, and bite! Don't miss the senses-shattering conclusion to this mind-blowing miniseries!''

== Go! Predacon subgroup name ==

The grouping of Bakudora, Budora, Gaidora, and Judora is referred to as 四鬼衆 (''Shikishū''). The first two kanji are easily translatable as "Four Demon", but [http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E8%A1%86 the last one] leaves me scratching my head. I'm not really sure how to translate it in conjunction to the "Four Demon" part. (In case you're wondering, the Goraadora components are [http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E9%82%AA%E9%AC%BC&eng=&dict=edict Jaki].) [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 23:12, 6 July 2013 (EDT)

: Hmm, pretending no language/translation knowledge but "masses" "great numbers" would the English word "Horde" work at all? "Four Demon Horde" sounds like a thing...--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 00:06, 7 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Oni Army Predacons" is a term I've seen relatively often. With the surfacing of the above other term, I'm now questioning this one's validity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:59, 7 July 2013 (EDT)
:"鬼" is more often used to portray a ferocious ogre rather than what would be called a demon in the West, so I don't think "demon" is going to be the best here. Maybe "monster" or "ogre"?
:Also, "四衆" is the "four orders of Buddhist followers" or "four assemblies", which this seems to me to be a play on. "The Four Monstrous Assemblies", maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:07, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Oni" are pretty well known of in the Western World, so I'd say it'd be safe to keep that. After all, the word does refer to a specific kind of monster rather than just generic "ogres" or "demons". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 16:58, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
::They aren't assemblies, though. They're just four guys. I assume the use of a group word here is modified by containing four guys, not being multiplied by four. -[[User:LV|LV]] 17:25, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
:::So, they're the "Four Oni Predacons", then? Or should the word "Predacon" come first since it's written as such in Japanese? Something like the "Predacon Four Oni Army"? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 17:55, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
::::If "衆" reads as "army", then, yeah, that'd be what I would go with. I certainly think "oni" in the context of Go! in particular makes more sense than genericizing it. They are clearly oni; making them "monsters" would be like renaming the Swordbots the Knight Team and the Assassin Team. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:08, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I'm actually unsure if "衆" can be read as "army", since I only got that from other people rather than from a fully proper translation. Though, I do think "Four Oni Predacons" sounds nicer and not as clunky as "Predacon Four Oni (whatever)". But, if we must find a word for "衆", I'd hope for a way to make it sound good enough in English. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:11, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
::I'm a bit unclear on how the Predacons work in Go!, but it sounded like that they could make multiples of the Abominus-repaint. Are we sure they're not doing something similar with the four deluxe/voyager predacons, could they be templates or something?
::"鬼" on its own refers to a specific type of yokai, but is often used in compounds to mean something not quite demonic but merely unfettered and monstrous, like the "Kishin" or "Fierce Deity" Link. "衆" isn't "army", though. It has no military connotation, it means "masses of people". Furthermore, it turns out the "Four Assemblies" thing isn't even the closest match! There is in fact a "[https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%AB%E9%83%A8%E9%AC%BC%E8%A1%86 Hachibukishuu]" where the number is 8 rather than 4.
:"ちなみに八部鬼衆は、乾闥婆・毘舎闍・鳩槃荼・薛茘多・那伽（龍）・富單那・夜叉・羅刹の名を挙げる。"
:"Incidentally, Hachibukishu include Kendatsuba, Bishaja, Kuhanda, Heireita, Naga, Futanna, Yasha and Rasetsu (Rakshasa)."
::The way it's described, it seems to be describing races of oni or other Buddhist demons/monsters.
::A somewhat similar construction, "鬼道衆" (which is given as "Demon'''iac''' horde, rather than Demon horde) appears in Tokyo Majin.
::Based on all that, I'd have to say the most accurate translations are either "The Four (Predacon) Hordes" (if there's more than one of each bodyform - this matches the form of the Buddhist analogy) or "The (Predacon) Horde of Four" (if we're absolutely sure there's only one of each).
::On a side note, I'm confused as to how they are clearly Oni rather than just generic yokai or dragons. Can anyone help me out with that?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:16, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Because the episode itself calls them "Oni".
:::It also shows Gaidora, Judora, Budora, and Bakudora to be individuals while the Jaki are just generic fodder that Gaidora can seemingly make at will.
:::So, with "horde" in mind, I guess they'd be the "Predacon Four Oni Horde" or something? Or, if we go by how we refer to "Transformer Daisakusen" as "The Great Transformer War", maybe they'd be the "Four Predacon Oni Horde" or the "Four Oni Predacon Horde"? Actually, that last one kinda sounds like the best option. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:26, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Ah, okay, that context clarifies things immensely! Thanks.
::::"Horde", from what I've found, would be the compound kishuu, rather than just the shuu.
::::"Four Oni Predacon Horde" sounds kind of awkward to me, and sounds like it would confuse whether it's four individuals or four tribes. I'd reocmmend something like the "(Predacon) (Oni) Horde of Four", which flows a bit more naturally and communicates that the horde consists of four members, rather than beings four hordes. Or, if necessary, the "(Predacon) Four-Oni Horde".[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 16:57, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Also, "Horde of Four" sounds faintly like "hors d'oeuvres", which makes me giggle.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 16:58, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I think it would be best to avoid as much of a mouthful title as possible. Though, I'm still skeptical on "Horde" for "shū", and if you say it's more for "kishū" instead of just "shū", then we might wanna think up something else. Out of curiosity, couldn't it just be the "Four Oni Predacons" if the "masses"/"multitude" connotation of "shū" could possibly translate out to just the plurality of the subject (which in this case would be the word "Predacon")? Or, does "shū" have to have its own word? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::It does seem reasonable to leave it out if it just means "group", because in English we don't normally have to specify that a number of related people are a group. "Four Oni Predacons" conveys the same sense as "Predacon Four Oni Group" when used as a proper noun. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

:The "Predacon Oni Quartet". It will save time if they later go into barbershop too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:52, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::I like that more than "Four Oni Predacons" or whatever. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 02:06, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Wait, abates ''wasn't'' just making a joke?
:::Anyway, here's a new, but related question. How do we go about handling the components of Goradora? When Gaidora creates them, he speaks (what at least sounds like) the phrase, "Yami no Jaki domo" which Walruslaw subbed as "Jaki minions". On [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%82%E4%B9%97%E5%90%88%E4%BD%93_%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BCGo! Japanese Wikipedia], the "Yami no Jaki" part is there too. But, what would the "domo" bit imply? And if we're to keep "Jaki" as is, what of the "Yami no" part? "Dark Jaki"? "Jaki of Darkness"? Would the "domo" part affect the translation in any manner? Did I even spell "domo" right? Could there be a macron above one or maybe both of the O's in "domo"? ''Gah'', too many questions! --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 02:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::The implication that I was getting from the words used compared to historical usage of those components is that shu is not there just to imply plurality - simply having "shiki" would have had that meaning. I got the impression that they're trying to communicate that just these four guys together are like a rampaging horde of demons. Again, I've not seen the anime at all so if "Four-Oni Horde" is not an implication given by the material, then "Four Oni Predacons" would be fine...it's just a ''really odd'' construction to use for that.
:"-domo" is usually a second or third-person plural implying ''seriously'' lower status of the subject respective to the speaker, so it's talking to them like they're the cannonfodder. "Yami no Jaki" is "Dark Devils/Imps/Evil Spirits"; with the banality implied by using "-domo", I'd suggest "Dark Imps" or some similar "demon-thing-what-gets-no-respect", like goblin or boogeyman.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:58, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::The episode, unsubbed, is on YouTube to watch. Walruslaw's subbed version, however, can be downloaded from his Google docs account.
:::The four Preds in the anime are really not much of a horde, since the episode has only two of them taking part in the mission, despite all four having awakened together and being simultaneously active (the other two likely went on a different mission to be covered in the Swordbot Shinobi Team episode).
:::As for the Jaki, how well does the "Jaki minions" translation from the fansub work? It seems to be preferable to keep the word "Jaki" since, like "Oni", the episode called them that. Though, while "Dark Jaki" kinda sounds a little iffy, I get the impression that it's the most accurate sounding. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::What I meant in regards to horde was that it sounds like it's implying that each member is a "One-man horde", more ferocious than your average <s>bear</s> Oni. I mean, they are eons-old alien robot dragons, after all.
:::-domo is just a suffix like -sama. It indicates the level of respect given (in this case, none), and does not actually "mean" minion..it's more like "hey, you Jaki bastards over there, go do what I say". The name of the entities sounds like it's just "Yami no Jaki". My own style is that, if there's a reason to leave part of a Japanese name unWesternized, leave the kanji and hiragana parts as Romaji and only translate the katakana, so I would leave it as "Yami no Jaki" as the name and note the disrespectful usage in notes.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:35, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I think what might help us out the best would be for you to see the episode for yourself. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVOtTVbDovI Here] it is in raw form, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUQSq10LTtw here] it is with Chinese subtitles (if they're of any use to you), and [https://docs.google.com/a/unicron.com/file/d/0B4a6PRwcFIjwOUV1blB4YUk5YVU/edit here] is the downloadable first fansubbed version from Walruslaw (he's done a revision of the subtitle script since, but it hasn't been finalized yet). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 17:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
So, after Sipher's firm speech about not needing to be fancy and being utilitarian in our name translations, "Four Oni Predacons" works well enough to get the point across without needing to beautify the term.
But, there's still the matter of "Yami no Jaki" to deal with for the Goradora components. Are we to keep it as it is, or go with something like "Dark Jaki", "Jaki of Darkness", etc.? (This is important for the fansub) --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 23:24, 11 July 2013 (EDT)
:My opinion is that "Jaki" is primarily a word that doesn't have a good English analogue, but the modifier does. It therefore makes the most sense to me to render it as "Dark Jaki". I can't say I have an overly strong opinion on it, though. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:10, 12 July 2013 (EDT)
::I'll try to watch the video today, Sabrblade, I'm sorry for the delay.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:25, 13 July 2013 (EDT)

The kanji "衆" is also used sometimes to indicate someone's "public" - IE, retainers, attendants, entourage. Such as the word "男衆". Given their role in the series, I think the best translation here is "Four Predacon Demon Attendants" or something along those lines.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 05:59, 14 July 2013 (EDT)
:But they're not just ordinary "demons", they're called "Oni" by the episode (we even use the word on the franchise page's notes section). Again, we've no need to make this look more pretty than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacons" is fine. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:31, 14 July 2013 (EDT)
::Yeah, leaving it "Oni" is pointless. Sure, most people into Anime know the term, and it may have originated as a specific type of Youkai (which, it's worth noting, was not a "type of demon" so much as something wholly unrelated - "youkai" doesn't mean "demon"), but it's a lot more general in common usage these days. I doubt they really intend anything more than just "demons/evil spirits/ogres". If you want to be super accurate, translate it "Ogre". Also, "Four Oni Predacons" leaves out the "衆" part of the meaning entirely. It should still be "Four Predacon Oni Attendants" or "Four Oni Predacon Attendants" or something like that even if you insist on keeping "Oni" for whatever reason. They're clearly meant to be Dragotron's right-hand henchmen.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 20:48, 14 July 2013 (EDT)
:::[http://tinypic.com/r/10ol1z5/5 The robot mode's heads are clearly designed to look like Oni,] for whatever that's worth. I think "Oni" in this case might actually ''mean'' Oni, not merely a generic for "evil spirit" as is increasingly common. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
::::You're missing the point again. Oni is easily translatable. So why leave it untranslated? Hasn't this wiki demonstrated a virulent dislike of leaving naked Japanese words in play? Also - my main point is the sub group name. Not whether we call them Onis/Ogres/Demons/Frank/Barrack Obama.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 04:08, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::And I tend to agree -- naked Japanese is ''bad'', it usually represents an inability to reach a consensus, so everyone "agrees" to just render the name non-useful.
:::::However one of the features of this debate is whether or not the term "oni" is being used to in the specific sense or the generic sense... as it has become common to use "Oni" to mean "Demon" in recent years. I was pointing out that the heads of the toys actually do seem to resemble Oni, which is a tic in favor of the word. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:04, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:I think what we have here is basically a play on "Four Man Army," and whatever translation we settle on should reflect that.
:Honestly I'd go with "Four Cardinal Terrors" as capturing the spirit of the original without cleaving to the actual words. Translation isn't a word-for-word thing... these words are a venn-diagram whose overlap contains the intended meaning. The question is how to express that.
:"Cardinal" because... hell, I don't know...! Cardinal directions, north, south, east and west? Army isn't right, horde isn't quite right... I think there's a "completeness unto itself" going on here that expresses the idea that these for, collectively, are some sort of prime exemplar -- '''The''' Four Demon Army, the definitive article, with each unit contributing to a greater whole.
:Four 'Mon Army. It's punny in a way that captures the core idea in a way that translates well to western sensibilities. If this were an episode title, I honestyly think we'd render it this way.
:Alas it is not, so we won't. I'm still advocating "Four Cardinal Terrors," or that we at least consider that "basic, fundamental, greatest, highest..." is somewhere int he mix of the idea being expressed even though no individual word translates that way.
:(Derik has ideas about Transformers.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:39, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
::I really don't think we need to make this any more fancy than it needs to be. Keeping it as simple and basic as it can be would help the masses understand it better. Now, if we really do need to find a term for 衆 beyond a mere pluralization of "Predacons", then how about "Unit"? Or "Force(s)"? Something to keep the whole thing from being more of a mouthful than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacon Unit/Force(s)", "Predacon Four Oni Unit/Force(s)", "Four Predacon Oni Unit/Force(s)"? Though, not in the use of a military connotation (as Kryten noted above that 衆 has none--which also throws "army" right out), but simply of them being part of the same group/team. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Okay, watched it.
#It could possibly be Regen Disc, I dunno.
#Erg...flashbacks to Digimon Xros Wars. ''Especially'' based on that, I would not picture "Predacon" as part of the name (see [http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/File:6-09_01.png this similar intro screen]). 衆 means "people" in the most general way - no implication beyond masses. That being said, they are clearly called "Oni" and their helmets are styled after traditional Oni, so yeah, "Four-Oni Horde" or "Four Onis" would both be accurate translations.
#He drops the "Yami no" and "-dono" later, so I'm not sure the official name is anything other than "Jaki". Gaidora is just using language-toward-an-inferior each time he calls on them, so I think "Dark Jaki" would be best, to fit with the "Four Onis".
[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 22:49, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Predacon" is in the title since the full text above the names of both Budora and Gaidora reads as プレダコン四鬼衆 (''Puredacon Shikishū''). So... "Four Oni Predacons", after all?
::As for "Yami no Jaki-dono", I just figured his dropping the rest of it was to refer to "Jaki Gattai" as its own term. As in "The Yami no Jaki-dono were brought together in a Jaki Gattai." Sorta like how one could say "The Swordbots were brought together in a Sanjou Gattai." --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 23:23, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:::"Predacon ''Four Demon Unit''." Or possibly "''Four Demon Force''" are my recommendation. Simple, to the point. Rather than winge about what best conveys some admittedly ambiguous meaning you just go for the most neutral term possible. Or "Four Oni Band," "Four Demons Crew" (I think the pluralization of demons there actually helps the name hold together better)
:::Is there a reason we can't just use "''Demon Quartet''"? Folding four+group into one word makes it read way, ''waaay'' better in English. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:15, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
:What I meant in regards to "Predacon" is that this format is exactly the same as in Digimon Xros Wars, in which they would say something like "Bagra Army Death General: Apollomon" or "Bagra Army Mysterious Assassin: Baalmon", with the post-Army bit being the actual name of that group. It doesn't seem to be a necessity to shoehorn "Predacon" in there, so I recommend we don't.
:For Jaki, I heard "Jaki Gattai da," which sounds like a command for the Jaki to Gattai, using informal speech (as with -dono), rather than a counterpart to Swordbot Fusion. I have bad hearing, though, so I won't fight that point.
:The character's grandpa clearly calls the Predacons "Oni", so I have to retract my earlier claims that it could be translated into English as "Ogre" or "Monster". "Oni Quartet" would fit, though.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:49, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
::You are right that he does say "Gattai da". I hadn't caught that until now. So, First "Dark Jaki" and then just "Jaki", right?
::Even in the subs of Xros Wars, the "Bagra Army" part of the title was subbed. And, the difference between that and this is that the Bagra Army titles referred to specific unique individuals, whereas this title refers to a group of individuals. A better argument could be made if Tactimon's title read as "Bagra Army Three Head Officers", but it instead reads as "Bagra Army Head Officer". If the "Four" part wasn't here, then the comparison would hold more weight, but it is here so it makes a difference.
::Plus, not every Bagra Army member's titled even had the "Bagra Army" part written in it. Dorbickmon's title in episode 32 was just "Death General", Apollomon's in episode 45 was just "Sun General" (?), and some are just "Bagra Army" ''without'' their personal titles. Very inconsistent, if you ask me. Whereas the titles of both Gaidora and Budora consistently make use of "Predacon" each time.
::Not to mention that, on [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%82%E4%B9%97%E5%90%88%E4%BD%93_%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BCGo! Japanese Wikipedia]'s page for the series, the full title of the group ("Predacon" and all) is repeated for each member, and even for Goradora, never shortening it to remove the "Predacon" part even though it's been stated clearly that they are Predacons. Whereas, Japanese Wikipedia's [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%87%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B9%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA%E3%81%AE%E7%99%BB%E5%A0%B4%E4%BA%BA%E7%89%A9%E3%83%BB%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C#.E3.83.90.E3.82.B0.E3.83.A9.E5.B8.9D.E5.9B.BD Xros Wars character page] ''doesn't'' repeat "Bagra Army" for each member's title like the "Predacon" part of "Predacon Shikishū". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:32, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
:::However, I can think of a reasonable compromise that let's "Predacon" able to be kept or dropped depending on the situation. If we put the word at the beginning, we could say "the Predacon Four Oni 衆" or "the Four Oni 衆". Over on Allspark, Derik suggested "Clan" for 衆, but does it fit? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:53, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
::::"Clan" is a terrible translation. It's nearly always 一族 (''ichizoku''). I still think "Predacon Oni Quartet" sounds better. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 01:02, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::"Quartet" just doesn't sound right for these guys, as the connotations related to it evoke something as silly as a barbershop quartet. It sounds less intimidating and powerful than the more universal/neutral term of just "Four". "Quartet" works more for a non-threatening group, which these guys are meant to be anything but. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:18, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:Just pluralizing Oni is totally acceptable. "shu" really doesn't mean anything beyond "we got more than a few people here, bro." We don't need to get fancy with it if we don't want to.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:56, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
::Alrighty, then. Though, after looking up all those "Bagra Army" mentions and lacks thereof, I'm actually now curious as to whether プレダコン四鬼衆 has ever been rendered as just 四鬼衆 in any official medium, or always fully as プレダコン四鬼衆 (like the Japanese Wikipedia gave the impression of it being). If there is a mention anywhere of the title that lacks the "Predacon" part, then I think we could go with "Predacon Four Oni"/"Four Oni" (or maybe even "Predacon Oni Four"/"Oni Four"). But if it's always rendered with "Predacon" included, then I'd opt for "Four Oni Predacons". I found [http://s21.postimg.org/hnvybr8rr/2408_2.jpg a photo of Gaidora's packaging bio], and [http://s16.postimg.org/o9edq1qrp/1369271664_4.jpg a magazine scan with a description of Gaidora]. Can you make out if the title is mentioned in either of these at all and if it does or doesn't include "Predacon"? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:18, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:::In both cases there are parts where 四鬼衆 is used without prefacing it with "Predacon". That being said... From a Japanese perspective, there's no reason to include "衆" at the end if it doesn't impart meaning - it's grammatically unnecessary. I think you're missing something by just going with "Oni Quartet". At this point, though, I should think I've made my preferred translation quite clear: www.metasubs.net.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 02:21, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::::There's a historical example of the ''exact same compound'' but with different numbers, which translates as "The Eight Legions". The only compounds I can find with an attendant implication are those that use it euphemistically, as a rich man would have "his men". Furthermore, they fight for Dragotron, they aren't shown attending to him.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:49, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::Dragotron isn't even fully awake yet. It's clear that they're doing his bidding/attempting to awaken him. Also, Gaidora is referred to on his packaging as "one" of the 四鬼衆. So... What... He's one of the four legions? That translation makes no sense. We have evidence of FOUR Oni Predacons - not four legions of them.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 23:04, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::I'm not suggesting it be "four legions", just pointing at the relevant translations ''also'' just focusing on plurality of people, not any specific role for them. Gaidora is one of the Four Onis, there's no need to incorporate connotations that aren't present in similar words or the fiction itself. "Attendant" generally doesn't imply "someone who's doing things for you", it's connotation is more someone who focuses on making you comfortable. Your soldiers generally aren't described as your attendants.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:53, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::As an aside, "Oni" is both singular and plural. "Onis" is an improper use of the word. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:46, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::As Sabrblade pointed out, Japanese grammar doesn't work that way. There IS no plural in Japanese in most cases. Adding an "s" at the end of Japanese words or words translated from Japanese is an affectation from people translating to English, which DOES have plurals. If they wanted it to be "The four oni", they would have made the title "四鬼". That "衆" cannot simply "pluralize" the term. It MUST impart some additional meaning to "鬼" here. The only valid point of discussion is what that additional meaning is. As "鬼衆" isn't an extant compound (as far as any of us have found), it must be one TakaraTomy made up, and it must be reasonably easy for the audience to guess the meaning for. So, we're simply looking at the most likely meanings of the compound. The meaning "Oni legions" or "Oni populace" doesn't make sense (given that they tell us up front that there are only 4 of them), but having them be Dragotron's footmen or servants DOES. Especially as an honorary title. Regardless of what they actually do, they might be viewed by the rest of the army has his attendants or servants. His "right-hand men".--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 23:15, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::::Watching an old episode of Digimon Tamers, I noticed that the word was used to refer to a "people" (which the subs correctly translated it as). However "Four Oni People" sounds wonky enough to leave the "people" part redundant and unecessary since Oni can already be viewed as a people without needing the word to tell us such, so... yeah. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:49, 20 July 2013 (EDT)
::Pretty sure that's not what Sabrblade was pointing out (merely that I had misspelled Oni as "Onis"). And...I've said a ''lot'' of times that it's an extant compound. I've provided historical usages of the compound where the only thing that differs is the number at the front. Dude, the kanji simply doesn't imply "role", it implies a mass of people. Using it as a pluralizer (which Japanese ''does'' use kanji for, in several cases) is absolutely normal and acceptable.
::In addition, using the "legions" translation, our term would just be "The Four Legions", not "Oni legions" or anything. Again, the historical usage of the compound gives a faint connotation of one-men armies, but simply pluralizing it as "Four Oni" gets the same point across.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 13:02, 20 July 2013 (EDT)
:::You've provided ONE historical usage of the compound "鬼衆". "八部鬼衆", right? It refers to 8 legions of "fierce god" servants of the Shitennou. That compound is using "部" (division, section) and "衆" to indicate "legions" (divided masses). You and I both know that kanji often have multiple shades of meaning, but generally mean similar things when put into similar conjunctions. If TakaraTomy wanted to make these the "4 oni legions" or "four oni legionnaires", why not finish out the pattern? Why not "四部鬼衆"? If anything, following that logic this title should be "Four demon horde". IE, a horde comprised of four demons. But even in the examples you provided (and in similar ones from Buddhism - "四部衆" and "八部衆") we're talking about groups of SERVANTS and protectors. They're attendants, essentially. I'd argue that connotation makes a lot more sense than them simply being a "four demon horde". As for pluralization via kanji... It happens in specific and limited instances, such as when you need to specify that information applies to ALL of ____. Generally not to simply add an "s" onto something like we would in English, and especially not when it's a simple counter. IE, you might say "Sensei-tachi" (Because you specifically want to include ALL of the teachers in your comment), but you'd never say "Sensei Yon-nin-tachi".--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 09:02, 21 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Since you mention the Shitennou, I've been told (well, it felt more like being "lectured", really) that an alternate translation to refer to the "Four Heavenly Kings" would be as the "Four Generals". In a sense, these four Predacons feel sort of like to Dragotron what the Shitennou were to their master, as in, they'd be something like Dragotron's "Four Oni Generals". But, that's probably not an accurate translation that we could use (man, this is tricky). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:21, 21 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I already suggested all of that earlier in the thread, and modified my suggestion based on the discussion you can read above. What I've been trying to explain with the "attendant" thing is that there's neither fictional context nor historical precedent to highlight it as the ''best'' choice, and it's not a literal translation so we don't have to choose it. You can view the characters as attendants if you squint, but if you had to pick a word off the top of your head, "attendant" wouldn't be it, and the title doesn't require it either. We can cover historical precedent, literal translation, and fictional context sufficiently with "Four Oni", in my mind, plus it fits well with "Dark Jaki".[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 02:11, 22 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::Well - I feel like we've both made out points clear. I don't think we're going to agree on this. Personally, I kind of feel like we need a higher authority to settle this. For me, that means asking around to some of my English-speaking Japanese friends. Another option that's been mentioned is asking Hydra ;)--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 06:11, 23 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::Houston, we have some answers! I talked to Hydra about both this and several Transformers Go! terms, to which he gave [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=94490&view=findpost&p=2364068 the following responses]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:02, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

::So:
*Predacon Four Oni/Fearsome Four
*Dark Imps/Dark Goblins
*Triple Combination/Threefold Combination
*Legendisc
*Emergency Dualblade Style
*Super-aero Longblade Style*
*Firefighting Assault Style
*Zan, Jin, Gin

:Regarding the first three, I suggest Four Oni, Dark Imps, and Threefold Combination, per the reasons I'd discussed elsewhere. Regarding Super-aero, WWWJDIC lists that Choukuukan and Choukuudou (超空''間'' and 超空''洞'', respectively) are "hyperspace" and "void"...while Jinbu is a jet, he is pretty spaceshippy and I think "Hyperspace Longblade Style" might capture that, as well as the super-speed Hydra mentioned. If not that, then perhaps wiggle it a bit to "Machspeed Longblade Style"?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:18, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Triple" is what's been chosen, works, is most recognizable, and therefore seems to be what this Wiki is going to stick with.
::"Four Oni" suffices. "Fearsome Four" was just what Hydra said he would call them if he, personally, were to localize the name in an English version, but we're not localizing, we're translating.
::For GoJinbu's attack, Jinbu's meant to be a fighter jet. The "Hyperspace" suggestion has been considered, but rejected as explained better [http://www.metasubs.net/?p=26#more-26 here]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 16:21, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:In my opinion, metasubs does not give a satisfying rationale on this matter at all, as it seems to amount to ignoring the available context. Especially if we're going for a "literal" translation, "High-flying" is, well, not it. (That being said, although I acknowledged earlier that Jinbu is based on a fighter jet, he is still first and foremost a space alien, nevermind that tons of characters in anime get "Meteor" etc. attacks without being spacefaring.)
:Since the discussion on Sanjou is closed, I'll not push it, although I maintain that Threefold was the better choice.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 18:36, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::Which is why it'll probably be changed to something more fitting than "High-flying". I've asked BraveMax to chime in about it, so let's wait and see. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 19:07, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:::"Oni" and frankly, I'd stick with "Jaki" over "imps" or "goblins" since this series is hyper-damn-Japanesey. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:52, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::::After my conversing with Hydra on the matter, he spelled out how "Jaki" is far more generic and non-special than "Oni" are, pretty much just referring to any ordinary minor demon or evil spirit ("Imps" and "Goblins" were his suggestions), rather than any specific breed of creature from Japanese folklore. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 19:04, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::Actually, I've got no intention of changing "High-flying" just yet. "超空" is used in some space-related compounds, but I just haven't found anything that I like that remotely fits with the samurai theme or Jinbu's character. Regardless of whether or not they're space aliens, they react like they've never seen modern vehicles before when they make their initial appearance - it doesn't make sense to say he uses a "hyperspace" based style when he barely knows what a jet is. Hydra's suggestion of "super-aero" is probably the best alternative so far, but I think he's wrong about it relating more to high-speed than high-altitude. Superaerodynamics refers to the study of aerodynamics at high altitudes, so without the "dynamics", "super-aero" just means "high-altitude flight" - "High-flying". The other two examples I provide ("Universe", essentially, and "Hyperspace") both basically refer to higher and higher levels of flight, not necessarily speed. I do get what he's saying, and certainly a speed-related translation would fit Jinbu's motif, but "super-aero" doesn't do it for me, and neither does "hyperspace". Until I find something better with the right nuance... I'm sticking with "High-flying".--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 21:01, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:::How about just... "Soaring"? As, it refers to flying at a decently high altitude. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 22:11, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Yes... But it's also utterly unrelated to speed :-p--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 22:41, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::No, "soaring" is a pretty standard synonym for "moving pretty damn fast".[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 10:23, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::Webster's disagrees: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soar--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 10:30, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::It confuses me that Webster disagrees, because the usage is pretty common: see [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/soar Wiktionary's (4)]. I suppose Webster approximates that with their (2), though.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:58, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

== Top list ==

Should the list at the top include the BS and Kre-O alternate continuity versions listed lower on the page? Should we even consider those separate continuity versions? Should we at least include the Kre-O Stormrazor and Corhada, since those don't appear in the normal continuity?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 10:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:Also the Kre-O versions of the G1 Predacons seem to be regarded as Kre-O Predacons (The Predacon skin on kre-o-nation.com features Predaking and Headlock). Though Rampage,the blindpack dude, is named "Decepticon Rampage", so I don't know where that leaves him. Maybe we need to have a Predacon (Kre-O) article. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:32, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

== Dragotron ==

Is Dragotron ''definitely'' the same being as Predaking, just in a separate continuity? With every other Predacon being a new character, I feel like Dragotron should be one too.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 10:00, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:Everything has presented him as Predaking. We're even told Go! starts after the defeat of Dragotron during Beast Hunters. I don't expect BH to actually end with Predaking buried in a mountain in Japan in the form of FOC Frenzy, but if we're lucky, it'll be vague enough to kinda-sorta line up. Of course, if we later find that Dragotron in Go! has been in that mountain since the twelfth century, and the early writeups were confused or wrong, then it's probably time to make him a new guy. -[[User:LV|LV]] 10:24, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
::I think the issue comes with how Predaking in Beast Hunters has been revealed to be a noble and compassionate villain, instead of the monstrous tyrant bent on destruction that his toy bios have made him out to be. Since the Go! backstory was likely conceived well before the season 3 cartoon was completed, Takara was likewise likely unaware of the cartoon making Predaking out to be not as evil as his bios made him seem. At best, I think we can assume that Dragotron may evoke the Toy Bio/Tales of the Beast Hunters portrayal of Predaking rather than the cartoon portrayal. But, if enough people think we ought to split the two a la the characters from Masterforce and Beast Wars II vs. their Hasbro counterparts, then I would not object to such a split. As of now, though, I'm content either way. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:59, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:::I find it pointless to split two guys who look exactly the same and serve the same function as leader of the Predacons. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 04:36, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::I am unwilling to make a split now. Let's wait to see what else ''Go!'' has in store for us as far as "Dragotron" is concerned. Not that I expect a hell of a lot of depth... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:13, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

I was wondering about this too, and it's connected with a question I have that I realised I didn't know the answer to when watching Go - are the Predaons that appear in Go some of Shockwave's clones, left over from ''Beast Hunters'', or are they some of the original Earthbound Predacons that have survived into the present day, awakening from stasis at the start of the episode? The connections to the ancient past that the existence of the Legendisc seems to weave into the show made me think it was the latter, and if that's the case, then Dragotron is presumably one of those survivors too, and not Predaking. I mean, isn't the idea that Predaking was sealed into a Legendisc by Optimus in the pre-Go/BH-finale backstory? Not buried in a mountain. And even if he was, there's something supremely undramatic about being buried in a mountain for basically a long weekend before a kid wakes you up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:52, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:Very good points. It's mostly a "wait and see" deal, at this point. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:08, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:There's also the whole ''oni'' connection with the Predacons, which looks to me to be implying that these guys are the original inspiration for the mythical creatures, much like how the ''Prime'' cartoon was saying dragon myths are inspired by Predacons. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 12:13, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:"Beast Hunters" didn't happen in Japan, right? They ceased broadcast after the end of Season 2? That means that Predacons haven't appeared at all in the Japanese Prime Continuity until TF: Go!. Maybe we're trying too hard to connect this show to something it was never meant to be connected to. For all we know, these are the ONLY Predacons in the Japanese Prime Continuity.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 20:07, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
::Agreed. This looks like another Rebirth/''The Headmasters'' situation where we get two different interpretations of the same characters. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 20:21, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
:::That's something I've been thinking about, yes. Is Dragotron a case like Chromedome, whose American and Japanese portrayals are so wildly different yet each is regarded here as being two versions of the same character; or is Dragotron a case like the cast of Masterforce whose portrayals are just as wildly diverse between the Western and Eastern versions as Chromedome's are and yet are treated as completely separate characters between each version? There is also the difference in the names of "Predaking" and "Dragotron" when Takara has mostly fully converted to using the same names that Hasbro uses. I mean, in terms based on the "[[Character]]" page, what we have here is a case of "Virtually the same toy, different company, same continuity family, different continuity, different name, different background/history, same role (i.e. - Predacon leader), ??? character". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 21:46, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
::::So the question, then, is is that enough to make him a different character? Unfortunately, we might not get an official word on that until we get some kind of confirmation on whether or not the events of BH happened in the TF: GO! continuity. Not that there's really enough characterization to him at the moment for him to really be worth a separate page... Are there any other examples of the same toy being released as two separate things by T-T and Hasbro?--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 01:17, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::EDIT: It seems like the Energon upgrade characters provide SOME precedence for splitting Dragotron from Predaking: [[Overcast_(Energon)]]--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 01:27, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::It seems like a given that Japan will eventually get BH. If and when they do, it ought to clear this up. In the meantime, I don't think we have enough to bother splitting the page. The Energon Energon redecoes were a much more open-and-shut case, because the appearances in the show were incontrovertibly the old guys, and the tech spec characters were incontrovertibly new characters. -[[User:LV|LV]] 09:38, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::A better example of what you asked about, BraveMax, would be like [[Landmine (G1)|Landmine]] and [[Lander|Lander]], [[Cloudburst]] and [[Phoenix (Masterforce)|Phoenix]], [[Getaway]] and [[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]], [[Slapdash (G1)|Slapdash]] and [[Road King]], [[Hosehead (G1)|Hosehead]] and [[Cab (human)|Cab]], [[Apex Bomber]] and [[Godbomber]], [[Bomb-Burst (G1)|Bomb-Burst]] and [[Blood]], [[Skullgrin]] and [[Dauros]], [[Submarauder (G1)|Submarauder]] and [[Gilmer]], [[Fangry (G1)|Fangry]] and [[Wilder (Masterforce)|Wilder]], [[Horri-Bull|Horri-Bull]] and [[Bullhorn (Masterforce)|Bullhorn]], [[Squeezeplay (G1)|Squeezeplay]] and [[Cancer (Masterforce)|Cancer]], the [[Seacon (G1)|G1 Seacons]] and the [[Seacon (Masterforce)|Masterforce Seacons]], [[B'Boom]] and [[Apache]], [[Snarl (BW)|Snarl]] and [[Tasmania Kid]], [[Powerpinch]] and [[Scissor Boy]], [[Injector]] and [[Rartorata]], etc. All pairs share the same toy with identical decos, but are considered separate characters. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:20, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::Thanks Sabr! LV - what makes you say "it seems like Japan will get BH"? They're releasing the toys NOW, and Takara has clearly bet the farm on TFGO! (It's all you really see around here, aside from the dregs of Prime, these days). What's more, there's new "easy product" coming next year in the form of the 4th movie and whatever the next American TF show is... So... Has there been any evidence that they're considering releasing BH? It's not like other shows where they could dub it over later and act like it's a totally unrelated show - it picks up from the ending of Prime Season 2, which was heavily edited for the Japanese broadcast in such a way that it may not even fit the events of Season 3, and it's not like they're going to re-release the toys. I think there's much more evidence that Prime simply flopped in Japan, and Takara didn't want to prolong a failed experiment.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 21:21, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::On the other hand (from what I was saying before), there are cases like the aforementioned [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] who seem to get a new backstory/characterization with each new portrayal. I mean... just ''look'' at that intro paragraph of his. >_< --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 22:10, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::What was the last TV fiction Hasbro paid for that Takara didn't find a way to use? I can't think of anything but Rescue Bots and Go-Bots since Rebirth. -[[User:LV|LV]] 22:47, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::::True, and true. But we've never quite faced circumstances like these either. I suppose this is another thing we'll just have to wait and see on :-p--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 23:56, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::Which is all I was saying. I suspect we ''will'' end up having to split them, because like the Energon recolors, and unlike the Headmasters, Predaking and Dragotron exist in what is more or less the same continuity. But if Dragotron's information is retroactively incorrectly on Predaking's page for six months, I'm pretty sure it's not the end of th world. (FWIW, I definitely don't think Takara started out intending to make them different guys, because otherwise I assume Predaking's new name would have been Somethingdora.) -[[User:LV|LV]] 08:32, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't see why Takara didn't just call him "Predaking" in the first place if they did want him to be the same guy. After all, he's still the leader, or "king", of the Predacons in Go!, anyway. What purpose his being renaming "Dragotron" serves if he is supposed to be the same guy, ''and'' in an age of Takara using Hasbro names, is completely beyond me. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:24, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::::It wouldn't be TakaraTomy without a "what the hell?" move. There's always something small but baffling going on there. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:03, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::::But in all seriousness... for whatever reason, ''Go!'' is clearly meant to be a complete style/tone-shift away from What America Is Doing. They can't really change the returning characters' names (well they ''could'' like they did in ''Super Link'' but aren't), but anyone who wasn't in the first two seasons of ''Prime'' is fair game. And one can't help but notice that despite the toyline being full of ''Prime'' show-characters... the fiction? Not so much. Or at all. And they're certainly getting just kinda quietly shoved out there toyline-wise... all the big promo stuff is on the NEW NEW NEW guys. Yeah, I don't get why "Dragotron" doesn't have a more Japanesey name like the rest of the Preds, but that might just be a holdover from early development that never got changed. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:27, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
::Personality-wise, Predaking and Dragotron don't seem to be the same. Predaking is almost totally focused on resurrecting his race, and doesn't give a damn about conquering anything; Dragotron does, unless there's supposed to be some subtext about resurrecting the rest of the Predacons. Add that to their incompatible plotlines and how all the other Go! Predacons are distinct, and I really think we can justify a split already, even before the movie comes out.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 18:33, 18 September 2013 (EDT)
:::On the other hand, "Tales of the Beast Hunters" has Predaking being the ruthless tyrant his toy bios describe him as being, which is reflected in Dragotron's character. I guess it depends on how much we want to regard the toy bios and "Tales" stories vs. the Prime cartoon itself.
:::Like I mentioned above, in terms based on the "[[Character]]" page, what we have here is a case of "Virtually the same toy, different company, same continuity family, different continuity, different name, different background/history, same basic role (i.e. - Predacon leader), ??? character". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:40, 18 September 2013 (EDT)

===Round 2===
Now that we've had more info about Dragotron and the ''Go!'' series itself, I think we have enough information to make an educated decision as to whether Dragotron should or shouldn't be considered the same character as Predaking. And I'm putting my vote into splitting the two, based on how we have the Masterforce and Beast Wars II characters being separate from their Hasbro counterparts. While this make sense for the characters of those series whose are portrayed significantly different from the Hasbro versions, there are still those like [[Blood]] and [[Bomb-Burst (G1)|Bomb-Burst]] who aren't all that memorably different aside from their backstories, but are still considered separate on here. But if their minute differences are enough to warrant separate pages, I see no reason why Dragotron can't also be separated from Predaking, as Dragotron's similarities to Predaking are only basic and generic. What's more is that, up until recently, it seemed like the main reason for keeping the two together was the presumption that ''Go!'' would be a sequel to ''Prime Beast Hunters'', with the latter ending in a way that could possibly set things up for the former. However, with the ''Go!'' fiction virtually ignoring ''Beast Hunters'' altogether, as the third season of the ''Prime'' cartoon never came to Japan, the new backstory created for Dragotron is nigh-irreconcilable with Hasbro's backstory for Predaking, with the only similarity between the two character origins being "Shockwave created him" while all other specifics [[Triple Combination: Transformers Go! (cartoon)#Overview|differ drastically]]. Dragotron's official toy bio even specifies that he possesses the ability to transcend time and space, and that his power is connected to the Earthlings, neither of which qualify for Predaking as established by Hasbro. Now, while one could say that this is all just a case similar to, say, ''G1'' [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]]'s differing American and Japanese portrayals, the fact that Takara even went as far as giving Dragotron his own name (in an age where Takara now almost firmly uses Hasbro names) along with his new identity (rather than just recycling and reapplying the name "Predaking" to this new portrayal) suggests that they intended for Dragotron to be his own entity separate from Hasbro's Predaking character, not unlike the aforementioned Masterforce and Beast Wars II characters that we likewise treat as their own characters. Also helps that every single one of Dragotron's minions were likewise given new names and identities (and ''heads'', in four cases), so it would make sense for him to follow in suit. And, really, do we honestly want another character page like Chromedome's that requires us to use multiversal <s>excuses</s> explanations to reconcile the stark differences between the American and Japanese versions of the character? The fact that season 3 of ''Prime'' doesn't exist in ''Go!'''s continuity is also a big indicator here since Predaking is inherently tied to ''Beast Hunters'' and, aside from him and Dragotron sharing the same toy mold and a similar Predacon leader role, it makes little sense to connect the two together when Dragotron exists in a continuity that willfully ignores and contradicts the ''entire reason'' for Predaking's very existence as a character, and which established him as a noble patriot rather than the "Demon Emperor" Dragotron has been set up to be. (As an aside, the absence of season 3 also nullifies [[Project Predacon|episode 57's]] "Predaclones being on Earth in the past" plot point from existing in the Japanese ''Prime'' continuity, as well.) So, yeah, I vote "Yes" to splitting the two. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 22:03, 22 October 2013 (EDT)
:I have no opposition at this point. -[[User:LV|LV]] 23:40, 22 October 2013 (EDT)
::Basically. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:35, 23 October 2013 (EDT)
:::That was a wall of text, wasn't it? I agree, though. We're beyond "Headmasters" vs "Rebirth" territory on this one. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 10:28, 23 October 2013 (EDT)
:I've gone and started the [[Dragotron]] page, but I can't continue with further edits to links and such at the moment since I have to be going. Anyone willing to pitch in is free to do so. I shall return in about five hours. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:45, 23 October 2013 (EDT)
:'Bout time! W00t!--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 01:13, 24 October 2013 (EDT)

A new theory, but possibly too late. Considering that BH says that Shockwave made Predacons for prehistoric Earth, is it possible that Dragatron is the first cloned Predaking, thus being more like the original savage one? I understand this doesn’t help the name section, but as has been said before, it’s Takara Tomy we are talking about. The event would be before RID and after Predacons Rising. Lost to time, but with the power of the lLegend Discs they were able to survive. Since it’ isn’t known whether the OG Earth Predacons could transform, Iwould say they could, their beast modes inspiring various dragons, and their robot modes the Oni in Japan, and possibly (this is somewhat offtopic) the Minotaur Of Greece, and things as such. [[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 04:38, 13 January 2020 (EST)

== Are Goradora/his components actually Predacons? ==

Okay, so the Go! show makes it clear that the little jaki/imp guys who form Goradora are generic minion things that the oni Predacons can magic up from cars and stuff. In which case, do they actually count as Predacons in the sense of being members of an ancient species of dragon guys? Are they ever described as such on the show or their packaging? [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 07:40, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
:For the show portrayal, I don't think episode 1 is enough to go by, so we'll have to wait for more episodes to surface. For the packaging, it hasn't come out yet so we've yet to see any pics of it or the bio. So... I guess it's simply to early to tell either way at this point. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:01, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
:If lab-born clones can be Predacons... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:38, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
::I think the idea that they wouldn't be described as Predacons on the toy packaging is a little ridiculous. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 01:33, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
::[https://twitter.com/TFYUKI/status/369766996528742400] <- Link to his package art. He's a Predacon :)--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 08:19, 22 August 2013 (EDT)

== Corhada and Stormrazor ==
Are those referring to the ''Kre-O'' guys, or am I missing something?

On a related note, I'm pretty sure ''Kre-O'' Stormrazor is the ''Kre-O'' version of Skystalker, since early solicits for BH Deluxe Wave 3 named ''Stormrazor'', Ratchet and Dreadwing. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 04:17, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
:Yeah, I'm not sure who moved them up or why, but they probably do belong on the top list. After all, this isn't really "Predacons from Prime", it's "Predacons in the sense of Prime, where they're a third faction of dragons". Also, Kre-O Stormrazor was called Skystalker in the original PowerPoint slide. That seems to be a name that Hasbro was real indecisive about until the very end. That being said, Backbite is also identical to Skystalker, so what's one more? -[[User:LV|LV]] 22:03, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
:This combination of Prime and Kre-O characters on one page really doesn't seem right to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:36, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
::I have been wondering if we should change the title to "Predacon (species)". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:00, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
:::If we do that and have clear subsections for Prime and Kre-O it could work. As is, it's a mess. --18:28, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
:::Aren't the Predacons from Beast Wars also a species? I mean, we've seen no evidence that Maximal/Predacon breeding could produce viable offspring. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:32, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
::::Possibly, but the fact that they can make Predacons from Maximal protoforms, plus the numerous cases of faction switching simply by changing insignias and transformation codes, seem to suggest that Maximal and Predacon are factions rather than separate species. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:38, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron

2020-01-13T09:39:32Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: Created page with "Hello there, person on my page. I am a person. Or maybe I’m a Predacon. Or maybe I’m some5ing else that pretends to be Galvatron. You’ll never know, boo-hoo!"

Hello there, person on my page. I am a person. Or maybe I’m a Predacon. Or maybe I’m some5ing else that pretends to be Galvatron. You’ll never know, boo-hoo!

Talk:Predacon (Prime)

2020-01-13T09:38:06Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: /* Round 2 */

== Kreon Predacons? ==

We count Kreons as their own continuity. But I really feel like the Kreon Predacons are meant to flesh out the Pred numbers. I suppose they don't go here unless they're in aligned? Or can we put all Preds with this faction symbol on the same page, like the Wreckers are. Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
:That's a good question. These guys are explicitly Beast Hunters-branded, but I doubt Hasbro will make a distinction between BH and non-BH Kre-O fiction. My inclination is to leave them off, but it's an imperfect answer necessitated by our wiki's entire way of handling continuities. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:59, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
::Most of our factional pages are cross-continuity. We only have one Decepticon and Autobot page, instead of Autobot (G1), Autobot (Armada), etc, because they're all really the same entity. But unlike how "Autobot" always means the same thing, the "Predacon" faction often means something different, depending on continuity family, whether it's G1, BW, or (now) Aligned. The Autobot and Decepticon pages are lucky enough to not have to have a "franchise-of-origin" disambiguation parenthetical, but Predacon (Prime) is not. ....long story short, I think Kre-O Predacons can go on this page, because this is the page for This Cross-Continuity Iteration Of Predacons. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

::Since it's all evidently under the Beast Hunters umbrella, why not just "Predacon (Beast Hunters)"?--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 21:48, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
:::Because Beast Hunters is a sub-franchise of Prime. The full title is "Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters". -- [[User:Spydersix|spyder]][[User Talk:Spydersix|Use this!]] 22:33, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
::::Except that these new Kre-O sets also sport the Beast Hunters sub-franchise logo. And they said at the NYCC panel that it's gonna be the 2013 theme of not just the Prime franschise but the whole Transformers brand itself. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:42, 16 October 2012 (EDT)

== Members and plot ==

I'm not real clear on what the preferred format is for subgroup pages, so would it be appropriate to have a list of members as they appear in the show/books, and would info on the Predacon's goals that would be spoilers for recent materials be appropriate for the lead, or does it need to remain within a synopsis until the spoilers expire?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:56, 4 December 2012 (EST)
:Well, I went ahead and added the stuff that's already mentioned on the wiki, figuring that can't be too bad. Should Swoop count as a temporary member?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:27, 12 February 2013 (EST)
::I still think we're artificially merging the concepts of the Predacons and the Forged. Being turned into one of the Forged didn't make Swoop a Predacon, nor were the Forged ever stated to all be Predacons. All of the Forged have been modified to be loyal to Shockwave, but we don't really know what else. Ser-Ket and Backbite are the only two that have displayed beast modes.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:40, 12 February 2013 (EST)
:::Oh, I guess I misunderstood the comic book, then. I ''am'' missing #2, so...yeah. Oops!
:::Also, apparently there's some kind of Beast Hunters guidebook written from Shockwave's point of view that's been published. Anyone know if (1) that's kosher for inclusion and (2) the character mentioned within it who is not already on this page is okay to be added? (I don't want to spoil anything that's not already on the wiki)[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:52, 12 February 2013 (EST)
::::That was a pamphlet handed out to folks at ToyFair to hype upcoming releases. As far as I know it's entirely kosher.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:01, 12 February 2013 (EST)
:::::When I asked about that pamphlet, one of the Hasbro presenters said that it was an internal document that was meant to pump the team up for Beast Hunters, and that later it was apparently used as a giveaway in Hong Kong, which they didn't find out about it until it hit the internet. We did not receive it for attending US Toy Fair 2013. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 01:19, 12 February 2013 (EST)
::If...it's not meant to ever be given out in English, and was released officially in Hong Kong...does it loophole back to usable?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 02:30, 12 February 2013 (EST)
:::Well with this information it was certainly intended to be given out in English, just not in North America. Hasbro Asia is still an official channel, and thus it ought to still be kosher. It's not a leak.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 03:14, 12 February 2013 (EST)

In regards to the Forged, the latest description of Rage of the Dinobots seems to indicate that they are Predacons, ''possibly'' that Shockwave is one as well. (Of course, the blurb holds no water next to the comic, but just bringing this up).
:''DINOBOT WAR! GRIMLOCK leads the '''DINOBOTS against SHOCKWAVE's troops'''-and the results won't be pretty! With SWOOP under SER-KET's control, it's an all-or-nothing battle of '''DINOBOT versus PREDACON'''-with the fate of CYBERTRON hanging on every punch, blast, jab, and bite! Don't miss the senses-shattering conclusion to this mind-blowing miniseries!''

== Go! Predacon subgroup name ==

The grouping of Bakudora, Budora, Gaidora, and Judora is referred to as 四鬼衆 (''Shikishū''). The first two kanji are easily translatable as "Four Demon", but [http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E8%A1%86 the last one] leaves me scratching my head. I'm not really sure how to translate it in conjunction to the "Four Demon" part. (In case you're wondering, the Goraadora components are [http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E9%82%AA%E9%AC%BC&eng=&dict=edict Jaki].) [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 23:12, 6 July 2013 (EDT)

: Hmm, pretending no language/translation knowledge but "masses" "great numbers" would the English word "Horde" work at all? "Four Demon Horde" sounds like a thing...--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 00:06, 7 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Oni Army Predacons" is a term I've seen relatively often. With the surfacing of the above other term, I'm now questioning this one's validity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:59, 7 July 2013 (EDT)
:"鬼" is more often used to portray a ferocious ogre rather than what would be called a demon in the West, so I don't think "demon" is going to be the best here. Maybe "monster" or "ogre"?
:Also, "四衆" is the "four orders of Buddhist followers" or "four assemblies", which this seems to me to be a play on. "The Four Monstrous Assemblies", maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:07, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Oni" are pretty well known of in the Western World, so I'd say it'd be safe to keep that. After all, the word does refer to a specific kind of monster rather than just generic "ogres" or "demons". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 16:58, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
::They aren't assemblies, though. They're just four guys. I assume the use of a group word here is modified by containing four guys, not being multiplied by four. -[[User:LV|LV]] 17:25, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
:::So, they're the "Four Oni Predacons", then? Or should the word "Predacon" come first since it's written as such in Japanese? Something like the "Predacon Four Oni Army"? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 17:55, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
::::If "衆" reads as "army", then, yeah, that'd be what I would go with. I certainly think "oni" in the context of Go! in particular makes more sense than genericizing it. They are clearly oni; making them "monsters" would be like renaming the Swordbots the Knight Team and the Assassin Team. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:08, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I'm actually unsure if "衆" can be read as "army", since I only got that from other people rather than from a fully proper translation. Though, I do think "Four Oni Predacons" sounds nicer and not as clunky as "Predacon Four Oni (whatever)". But, if we must find a word for "衆", I'd hope for a way to make it sound good enough in English. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:11, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
::I'm a bit unclear on how the Predacons work in Go!, but it sounded like that they could make multiples of the Abominus-repaint. Are we sure they're not doing something similar with the four deluxe/voyager predacons, could they be templates or something?
::"鬼" on its own refers to a specific type of yokai, but is often used in compounds to mean something not quite demonic but merely unfettered and monstrous, like the "Kishin" or "Fierce Deity" Link. "衆" isn't "army", though. It has no military connotation, it means "masses of people". Furthermore, it turns out the "Four Assemblies" thing isn't even the closest match! There is in fact a "[https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%AB%E9%83%A8%E9%AC%BC%E8%A1%86 Hachibukishuu]" where the number is 8 rather than 4.
:"ちなみに八部鬼衆は、乾闥婆・毘舎闍・鳩槃荼・薛茘多・那伽（龍）・富單那・夜叉・羅刹の名を挙げる。"
:"Incidentally, Hachibukishu include Kendatsuba, Bishaja, Kuhanda, Heireita, Naga, Futanna, Yasha and Rasetsu (Rakshasa)."
::The way it's described, it seems to be describing races of oni or other Buddhist demons/monsters.
::A somewhat similar construction, "鬼道衆" (which is given as "Demon'''iac''' horde, rather than Demon horde) appears in Tokyo Majin.
::Based on all that, I'd have to say the most accurate translations are either "The Four (Predacon) Hordes" (if there's more than one of each bodyform - this matches the form of the Buddhist analogy) or "The (Predacon) Horde of Four" (if we're absolutely sure there's only one of each).
::On a side note, I'm confused as to how they are clearly Oni rather than just generic yokai or dragons. Can anyone help me out with that?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:16, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Because the episode itself calls them "Oni".
:::It also shows Gaidora, Judora, Budora, and Bakudora to be individuals while the Jaki are just generic fodder that Gaidora can seemingly make at will.
:::So, with "horde" in mind, I guess they'd be the "Predacon Four Oni Horde" or something? Or, if we go by how we refer to "Transformer Daisakusen" as "The Great Transformer War", maybe they'd be the "Four Predacon Oni Horde" or the "Four Oni Predacon Horde"? Actually, that last one kinda sounds like the best option. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:26, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Ah, okay, that context clarifies things immensely! Thanks.
::::"Horde", from what I've found, would be the compound kishuu, rather than just the shuu.
::::"Four Oni Predacon Horde" sounds kind of awkward to me, and sounds like it would confuse whether it's four individuals or four tribes. I'd reocmmend something like the "(Predacon) (Oni) Horde of Four", which flows a bit more naturally and communicates that the horde consists of four members, rather than beings four hordes. Or, if necessary, the "(Predacon) Four-Oni Horde".[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 16:57, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Also, "Horde of Four" sounds faintly like "hors d'oeuvres", which makes me giggle.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 16:58, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I think it would be best to avoid as much of a mouthful title as possible. Though, I'm still skeptical on "Horde" for "shū", and if you say it's more for "kishū" instead of just "shū", then we might wanna think up something else. Out of curiosity, couldn't it just be the "Four Oni Predacons" if the "masses"/"multitude" connotation of "shū" could possibly translate out to just the plurality of the subject (which in this case would be the word "Predacon")? Or, does "shū" have to have its own word? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::It does seem reasonable to leave it out if it just means "group", because in English we don't normally have to specify that a number of related people are a group. "Four Oni Predacons" conveys the same sense as "Predacon Four Oni Group" when used as a proper noun. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

:The "Predacon Oni Quartet". It will save time if they later go into barbershop too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:52, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::I like that more than "Four Oni Predacons" or whatever. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 02:06, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Wait, abates ''wasn't'' just making a joke?
:::Anyway, here's a new, but related question. How do we go about handling the components of Goradora? When Gaidora creates them, he speaks (what at least sounds like) the phrase, "Yami no Jaki domo" which Walruslaw subbed as "Jaki minions". On [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%82%E4%B9%97%E5%90%88%E4%BD%93_%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BCGo! Japanese Wikipedia], the "Yami no Jaki" part is there too. But, what would the "domo" bit imply? And if we're to keep "Jaki" as is, what of the "Yami no" part? "Dark Jaki"? "Jaki of Darkness"? Would the "domo" part affect the translation in any manner? Did I even spell "domo" right? Could there be a macron above one or maybe both of the O's in "domo"? ''Gah'', too many questions! --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 02:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::The implication that I was getting from the words used compared to historical usage of those components is that shu is not there just to imply plurality - simply having "shiki" would have had that meaning. I got the impression that they're trying to communicate that just these four guys together are like a rampaging horde of demons. Again, I've not seen the anime at all so if "Four-Oni Horde" is not an implication given by the material, then "Four Oni Predacons" would be fine...it's just a ''really odd'' construction to use for that.
:"-domo" is usually a second or third-person plural implying ''seriously'' lower status of the subject respective to the speaker, so it's talking to them like they're the cannonfodder. "Yami no Jaki" is "Dark Devils/Imps/Evil Spirits"; with the banality implied by using "-domo", I'd suggest "Dark Imps" or some similar "demon-thing-what-gets-no-respect", like goblin or boogeyman.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:58, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::The episode, unsubbed, is on YouTube to watch. Walruslaw's subbed version, however, can be downloaded from his Google docs account.
:::The four Preds in the anime are really not much of a horde, since the episode has only two of them taking part in the mission, despite all four having awakened together and being simultaneously active (the other two likely went on a different mission to be covered in the Swordbot Shinobi Team episode).
:::As for the Jaki, how well does the "Jaki minions" translation from the fansub work? It seems to be preferable to keep the word "Jaki" since, like "Oni", the episode called them that. Though, while "Dark Jaki" kinda sounds a little iffy, I get the impression that it's the most accurate sounding. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::What I meant in regards to horde was that it sounds like it's implying that each member is a "One-man horde", more ferocious than your average <s>bear</s> Oni. I mean, they are eons-old alien robot dragons, after all.
:::-domo is just a suffix like -sama. It indicates the level of respect given (in this case, none), and does not actually "mean" minion..it's more like "hey, you Jaki bastards over there, go do what I say". The name of the entities sounds like it's just "Yami no Jaki". My own style is that, if there's a reason to leave part of a Japanese name unWesternized, leave the kanji and hiragana parts as Romaji and only translate the katakana, so I would leave it as "Yami no Jaki" as the name and note the disrespectful usage in notes.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:35, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I think what might help us out the best would be for you to see the episode for yourself. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVOtTVbDovI Here] it is in raw form, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUQSq10LTtw here] it is with Chinese subtitles (if they're of any use to you), and [https://docs.google.com/a/unicron.com/file/d/0B4a6PRwcFIjwOUV1blB4YUk5YVU/edit here] is the downloadable first fansubbed version from Walruslaw (he's done a revision of the subtitle script since, but it hasn't been finalized yet). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 17:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
So, after Sipher's firm speech about not needing to be fancy and being utilitarian in our name translations, "Four Oni Predacons" works well enough to get the point across without needing to beautify the term.
But, there's still the matter of "Yami no Jaki" to deal with for the Goradora components. Are we to keep it as it is, or go with something like "Dark Jaki", "Jaki of Darkness", etc.? (This is important for the fansub) --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 23:24, 11 July 2013 (EDT)
:My opinion is that "Jaki" is primarily a word that doesn't have a good English analogue, but the modifier does. It therefore makes the most sense to me to render it as "Dark Jaki". I can't say I have an overly strong opinion on it, though. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:10, 12 July 2013 (EDT)
::I'll try to watch the video today, Sabrblade, I'm sorry for the delay.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:25, 13 July 2013 (EDT)

The kanji "衆" is also used sometimes to indicate someone's "public" - IE, retainers, attendants, entourage. Such as the word "男衆". Given their role in the series, I think the best translation here is "Four Predacon Demon Attendants" or something along those lines.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 05:59, 14 July 2013 (EDT)
:But they're not just ordinary "demons", they're called "Oni" by the episode (we even use the word on the franchise page's notes section). Again, we've no need to make this look more pretty than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacons" is fine. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:31, 14 July 2013 (EDT)
::Yeah, leaving it "Oni" is pointless. Sure, most people into Anime know the term, and it may have originated as a specific type of Youkai (which, it's worth noting, was not a "type of demon" so much as something wholly unrelated - "youkai" doesn't mean "demon"), but it's a lot more general in common usage these days. I doubt they really intend anything more than just "demons/evil spirits/ogres". If you want to be super accurate, translate it "Ogre". Also, "Four Oni Predacons" leaves out the "衆" part of the meaning entirely. It should still be "Four Predacon Oni Attendants" or "Four Oni Predacon Attendants" or something like that even if you insist on keeping "Oni" for whatever reason. They're clearly meant to be Dragotron's right-hand henchmen.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 20:48, 14 July 2013 (EDT)
:::[http://tinypic.com/r/10ol1z5/5 The robot mode's heads are clearly designed to look like Oni,] for whatever that's worth. I think "Oni" in this case might actually ''mean'' Oni, not merely a generic for "evil spirit" as is increasingly common. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
::::You're missing the point again. Oni is easily translatable. So why leave it untranslated? Hasn't this wiki demonstrated a virulent dislike of leaving naked Japanese words in play? Also - my main point is the sub group name. Not whether we call them Onis/Ogres/Demons/Frank/Barrack Obama.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 04:08, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::And I tend to agree -- naked Japanese is ''bad'', it usually represents an inability to reach a consensus, so everyone "agrees" to just render the name non-useful.
:::::However one of the features of this debate is whether or not the term "oni" is being used to in the specific sense or the generic sense... as it has become common to use "Oni" to mean "Demon" in recent years. I was pointing out that the heads of the toys actually do seem to resemble Oni, which is a tic in favor of the word. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:04, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:I think what we have here is basically a play on "Four Man Army," and whatever translation we settle on should reflect that.
:Honestly I'd go with "Four Cardinal Terrors" as capturing the spirit of the original without cleaving to the actual words. Translation isn't a word-for-word thing... these words are a venn-diagram whose overlap contains the intended meaning. The question is how to express that.
:"Cardinal" because... hell, I don't know...! Cardinal directions, north, south, east and west? Army isn't right, horde isn't quite right... I think there's a "completeness unto itself" going on here that expresses the idea that these for, collectively, are some sort of prime exemplar -- '''The''' Four Demon Army, the definitive article, with each unit contributing to a greater whole.
:Four 'Mon Army. It's punny in a way that captures the core idea in a way that translates well to western sensibilities. If this were an episode title, I honestyly think we'd render it this way.
:Alas it is not, so we won't. I'm still advocating "Four Cardinal Terrors," or that we at least consider that "basic, fundamental, greatest, highest..." is somewhere int he mix of the idea being expressed even though no individual word translates that way.
:(Derik has ideas about Transformers.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:39, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
::I really don't think we need to make this any more fancy than it needs to be. Keeping it as simple and basic as it can be would help the masses understand it better. Now, if we really do need to find a term for 衆 beyond a mere pluralization of "Predacons", then how about "Unit"? Or "Force(s)"? Something to keep the whole thing from being more of a mouthful than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacon Unit/Force(s)", "Predacon Four Oni Unit/Force(s)", "Four Predacon Oni Unit/Force(s)"? Though, not in the use of a military connotation (as Kryten noted above that 衆 has none--which also throws "army" right out), but simply of them being part of the same group/team. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Okay, watched it.
#It could possibly be Regen Disc, I dunno.
#Erg...flashbacks to Digimon Xros Wars. ''Especially'' based on that, I would not picture "Predacon" as part of the name (see [http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/File:6-09_01.png this similar intro screen]). 衆 means "people" in the most general way - no implication beyond masses. That being said, they are clearly called "Oni" and their helmets are styled after traditional Oni, so yeah, "Four-Oni Horde" or "Four Onis" would both be accurate translations.
#He drops the "Yami no" and "-dono" later, so I'm not sure the official name is anything other than "Jaki". Gaidora is just using language-toward-an-inferior each time he calls on them, so I think "Dark Jaki" would be best, to fit with the "Four Onis".
[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 22:49, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Predacon" is in the title since the full text above the names of both Budora and Gaidora reads as プレダコン四鬼衆 (''Puredacon Shikishū''). So... "Four Oni Predacons", after all?
::As for "Yami no Jaki-dono", I just figured his dropping the rest of it was to refer to "Jaki Gattai" as its own term. As in "The Yami no Jaki-dono were brought together in a Jaki Gattai." Sorta like how one could say "The Swordbots were brought together in a Sanjou Gattai." --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 23:23, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:::"Predacon ''Four Demon Unit''." Or possibly "''Four Demon Force''" are my recommendation. Simple, to the point. Rather than winge about what best conveys some admittedly ambiguous meaning you just go for the most neutral term possible. Or "Four Oni Band," "Four Demons Crew" (I think the pluralization of demons there actually helps the name hold together better)
:::Is there a reason we can't just use "''Demon Quartet''"? Folding four+group into one word makes it read way, ''waaay'' better in English. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:15, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
:What I meant in regards to "Predacon" is that this format is exactly the same as in Digimon Xros Wars, in which they would say something like "Bagra Army Death General: Apollomon" or "Bagra Army Mysterious Assassin: Baalmon", with the post-Army bit being the actual name of that group. It doesn't seem to be a necessity to shoehorn "Predacon" in there, so I recommend we don't.
:For Jaki, I heard "Jaki Gattai da," which sounds like a command for the Jaki to Gattai, using informal speech (as with -dono), rather than a counterpart to Swordbot Fusion. I have bad hearing, though, so I won't fight that point.
:The character's grandpa clearly calls the Predacons "Oni", so I have to retract my earlier claims that it could be translated into English as "Ogre" or "Monster". "Oni Quartet" would fit, though.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:49, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
::You are right that he does say "Gattai da". I hadn't caught that until now. So, First "Dark Jaki" and then just "Jaki", right?
::Even in the subs of Xros Wars, the "Bagra Army" part of the title was subbed. And, the difference between that and this is that the Bagra Army titles referred to specific unique individuals, whereas this title refers to a group of individuals. A better argument could be made if Tactimon's title read as "Bagra Army Three Head Officers", but it instead reads as "Bagra Army Head Officer". If the "Four" part wasn't here, then the comparison would hold more weight, but it is here so it makes a difference.
::Plus, not every Bagra Army member's titled even had the "Bagra Army" part written in it. Dorbickmon's title in episode 32 was just "Death General", Apollomon's in episode 45 was just "Sun General" (?), and some are just "Bagra Army" ''without'' their personal titles. Very inconsistent, if you ask me. Whereas the titles of both Gaidora and Budora consistently make use of "Predacon" each time.
::Not to mention that, on [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%82%E4%B9%97%E5%90%88%E4%BD%93_%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BCGo! Japanese Wikipedia]'s page for the series, the full title of the group ("Predacon" and all) is repeated for each member, and even for Goradora, never shortening it to remove the "Predacon" part even though it's been stated clearly that they are Predacons. Whereas, Japanese Wikipedia's [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%87%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B9%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA%E3%81%AE%E7%99%BB%E5%A0%B4%E4%BA%BA%E7%89%A9%E3%83%BB%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C#.E3.83.90.E3.82.B0.E3.83.A9.E5.B8.9D.E5.9B.BD Xros Wars character page] ''doesn't'' repeat "Bagra Army" for each member's title like the "Predacon" part of "Predacon Shikishū". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:32, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
:::However, I can think of a reasonable compromise that let's "Predacon" able to be kept or dropped depending on the situation. If we put the word at the beginning, we could say "the Predacon Four Oni 衆" or "the Four Oni 衆". Over on Allspark, Derik suggested "Clan" for 衆, but does it fit? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:53, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
::::"Clan" is a terrible translation. It's nearly always 一族 (''ichizoku''). I still think "Predacon Oni Quartet" sounds better. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 01:02, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::"Quartet" just doesn't sound right for these guys, as the connotations related to it evoke something as silly as a barbershop quartet. It sounds less intimidating and powerful than the more universal/neutral term of just "Four". "Quartet" works more for a non-threatening group, which these guys are meant to be anything but. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:18, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:Just pluralizing Oni is totally acceptable. "shu" really doesn't mean anything beyond "we got more than a few people here, bro." We don't need to get fancy with it if we don't want to.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:56, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
::Alrighty, then. Though, after looking up all those "Bagra Army" mentions and lacks thereof, I'm actually now curious as to whether プレダコン四鬼衆 has ever been rendered as just 四鬼衆 in any official medium, or always fully as プレダコン四鬼衆 (like the Japanese Wikipedia gave the impression of it being). If there is a mention anywhere of the title that lacks the "Predacon" part, then I think we could go with "Predacon Four Oni"/"Four Oni" (or maybe even "Predacon Oni Four"/"Oni Four"). But if it's always rendered with "Predacon" included, then I'd opt for "Four Oni Predacons". I found [http://s21.postimg.org/hnvybr8rr/2408_2.jpg a photo of Gaidora's packaging bio], and [http://s16.postimg.org/o9edq1qrp/1369271664_4.jpg a magazine scan with a description of Gaidora]. Can you make out if the title is mentioned in either of these at all and if it does or doesn't include "Predacon"? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:18, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:::In both cases there are parts where 四鬼衆 is used without prefacing it with "Predacon". That being said... From a Japanese perspective, there's no reason to include "衆" at the end if it doesn't impart meaning - it's grammatically unnecessary. I think you're missing something by just going with "Oni Quartet". At this point, though, I should think I've made my preferred translation quite clear: www.metasubs.net.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 02:21, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::::There's a historical example of the ''exact same compound'' but with different numbers, which translates as "The Eight Legions". The only compounds I can find with an attendant implication are those that use it euphemistically, as a rich man would have "his men". Furthermore, they fight for Dragotron, they aren't shown attending to him.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:49, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::Dragotron isn't even fully awake yet. It's clear that they're doing his bidding/attempting to awaken him. Also, Gaidora is referred to on his packaging as "one" of the 四鬼衆. So... What... He's one of the four legions? That translation makes no sense. We have evidence of FOUR Oni Predacons - not four legions of them.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 23:04, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::I'm not suggesting it be "four legions", just pointing at the relevant translations ''also'' just focusing on plurality of people, not any specific role for them. Gaidora is one of the Four Onis, there's no need to incorporate connotations that aren't present in similar words or the fiction itself. "Attendant" generally doesn't imply "someone who's doing things for you", it's connotation is more someone who focuses on making you comfortable. Your soldiers generally aren't described as your attendants.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:53, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::As an aside, "Oni" is both singular and plural. "Onis" is an improper use of the word. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:46, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::As Sabrblade pointed out, Japanese grammar doesn't work that way. There IS no plural in Japanese in most cases. Adding an "s" at the end of Japanese words or words translated from Japanese is an affectation from people translating to English, which DOES have plurals. If they wanted it to be "The four oni", they would have made the title "四鬼". That "衆" cannot simply "pluralize" the term. It MUST impart some additional meaning to "鬼" here. The only valid point of discussion is what that additional meaning is. As "鬼衆" isn't an extant compound (as far as any of us have found), it must be one TakaraTomy made up, and it must be reasonably easy for the audience to guess the meaning for. So, we're simply looking at the most likely meanings of the compound. The meaning "Oni legions" or "Oni populace" doesn't make sense (given that they tell us up front that there are only 4 of them), but having them be Dragotron's footmen or servants DOES. Especially as an honorary title. Regardless of what they actually do, they might be viewed by the rest of the army has his attendants or servants. His "right-hand men".--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 23:15, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::::Watching an old episode of Digimon Tamers, I noticed that the word was used to refer to a "people" (which the subs correctly translated it as). However "Four Oni People" sounds wonky enough to leave the "people" part redundant and unecessary since Oni can already be viewed as a people without needing the word to tell us such, so... yeah. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:49, 20 July 2013 (EDT)
::Pretty sure that's not what Sabrblade was pointing out (merely that I had misspelled Oni as "Onis"). And...I've said a ''lot'' of times that it's an extant compound. I've provided historical usages of the compound where the only thing that differs is the number at the front. Dude, the kanji simply doesn't imply "role", it implies a mass of people. Using it as a pluralizer (which Japanese ''does'' use kanji for, in several cases) is absolutely normal and acceptable.
::In addition, using the "legions" translation, our term would just be "The Four Legions", not "Oni legions" or anything. Again, the historical usage of the compound gives a faint connotation of one-men armies, but simply pluralizing it as "Four Oni" gets the same point across.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 13:02, 20 July 2013 (EDT)
:::You've provided ONE historical usage of the compound "鬼衆". "八部鬼衆", right? It refers to 8 legions of "fierce god" servants of the Shitennou. That compound is using "部" (division, section) and "衆" to indicate "legions" (divided masses). You and I both know that kanji often have multiple shades of meaning, but generally mean similar things when put into similar conjunctions. If TakaraTomy wanted to make these the "4 oni legions" or "four oni legionnaires", why not finish out the pattern? Why not "四部鬼衆"? If anything, following that logic this title should be "Four demon horde". IE, a horde comprised of four demons. But even in the examples you provided (and in similar ones from Buddhism - "四部衆" and "八部衆") we're talking about groups of SERVANTS and protectors. They're attendants, essentially. I'd argue that connotation makes a lot more sense than them simply being a "four demon horde". As for pluralization via kanji... It happens in specific and limited instances, such as when you need to specify that information applies to ALL of ____. Generally not to simply add an "s" onto something like we would in English, and especially not when it's a simple counter. IE, you might say "Sensei-tachi" (Because you specifically want to include ALL of the teachers in your comment), but you'd never say "Sensei Yon-nin-tachi".--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 09:02, 21 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Since you mention the Shitennou, I've been told (well, it felt more like being "lectured", really) that an alternate translation to refer to the "Four Heavenly Kings" would be as the "Four Generals". In a sense, these four Predacons feel sort of like to Dragotron what the Shitennou were to their master, as in, they'd be something like Dragotron's "Four Oni Generals". But, that's probably not an accurate translation that we could use (man, this is tricky). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:21, 21 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I already suggested all of that earlier in the thread, and modified my suggestion based on the discussion you can read above. What I've been trying to explain with the "attendant" thing is that there's neither fictional context nor historical precedent to highlight it as the ''best'' choice, and it's not a literal translation so we don't have to choose it. You can view the characters as attendants if you squint, but if you had to pick a word off the top of your head, "attendant" wouldn't be it, and the title doesn't require it either. We can cover historical precedent, literal translation, and fictional context sufficiently with "Four Oni", in my mind, plus it fits well with "Dark Jaki".[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 02:11, 22 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::Well - I feel like we've both made out points clear. I don't think we're going to agree on this. Personally, I kind of feel like we need a higher authority to settle this. For me, that means asking around to some of my English-speaking Japanese friends. Another option that's been mentioned is asking Hydra ;)--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 06:11, 23 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::Houston, we have some answers! I talked to Hydra about both this and several Transformers Go! terms, to which he gave [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=94490&view=findpost&p=2364068 the following responses]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:02, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

::So:
*Predacon Four Oni/Fearsome Four
*Dark Imps/Dark Goblins
*Triple Combination/Threefold Combination
*Legendisc
*Emergency Dualblade Style
*Super-aero Longblade Style*
*Firefighting Assault Style
*Zan, Jin, Gin

:Regarding the first three, I suggest Four Oni, Dark Imps, and Threefold Combination, per the reasons I'd discussed elsewhere. Regarding Super-aero, WWWJDIC lists that Choukuukan and Choukuudou (超空''間'' and 超空''洞'', respectively) are "hyperspace" and "void"...while Jinbu is a jet, he is pretty spaceshippy and I think "Hyperspace Longblade Style" might capture that, as well as the super-speed Hydra mentioned. If not that, then perhaps wiggle it a bit to "Machspeed Longblade Style"?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:18, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Triple" is what's been chosen, works, is most recognizable, and therefore seems to be what this Wiki is going to stick with.
::"Four Oni" suffices. "Fearsome Four" was just what Hydra said he would call them if he, personally, were to localize the name in an English version, but we're not localizing, we're translating.
::For GoJinbu's attack, Jinbu's meant to be a fighter jet. The "Hyperspace" suggestion has been considered, but rejected as explained better [http://www.metasubs.net/?p=26#more-26 here]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 16:21, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:In my opinion, metasubs does not give a satisfying rationale on this matter at all, as it seems to amount to ignoring the available context. Especially if we're going for a "literal" translation, "High-flying" is, well, not it. (That being said, although I acknowledged earlier that Jinbu is based on a fighter jet, he is still first and foremost a space alien, nevermind that tons of characters in anime get "Meteor" etc. attacks without being spacefaring.)
:Since the discussion on Sanjou is closed, I'll not push it, although I maintain that Threefold was the better choice.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 18:36, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::Which is why it'll probably be changed to something more fitting than "High-flying". I've asked BraveMax to chime in about it, so let's wait and see. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 19:07, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:::"Oni" and frankly, I'd stick with "Jaki" over "imps" or "goblins" since this series is hyper-damn-Japanesey. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:52, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::::After my conversing with Hydra on the matter, he spelled out how "Jaki" is far more generic and non-special than "Oni" are, pretty much just referring to any ordinary minor demon or evil spirit ("Imps" and "Goblins" were his suggestions), rather than any specific breed of creature from Japanese folklore. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 19:04, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::Actually, I've got no intention of changing "High-flying" just yet. "超空" is used in some space-related compounds, but I just haven't found anything that I like that remotely fits with the samurai theme or Jinbu's character. Regardless of whether or not they're space aliens, they react like they've never seen modern vehicles before when they make their initial appearance - it doesn't make sense to say he uses a "hyperspace" based style when he barely knows what a jet is. Hydra's suggestion of "super-aero" is probably the best alternative so far, but I think he's wrong about it relating more to high-speed than high-altitude. Superaerodynamics refers to the study of aerodynamics at high altitudes, so without the "dynamics", "super-aero" just means "high-altitude flight" - "High-flying". The other two examples I provide ("Universe", essentially, and "Hyperspace") both basically refer to higher and higher levels of flight, not necessarily speed. I do get what he's saying, and certainly a speed-related translation would fit Jinbu's motif, but "super-aero" doesn't do it for me, and neither does "hyperspace". Until I find something better with the right nuance... I'm sticking with "High-flying".--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 21:01, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:::How about just... "Soaring"? As, it refers to flying at a decently high altitude. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 22:11, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Yes... But it's also utterly unrelated to speed :-p--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 22:41, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::No, "soaring" is a pretty standard synonym for "moving pretty damn fast".[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 10:23, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::Webster's disagrees: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soar--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 10:30, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::It confuses me that Webster disagrees, because the usage is pretty common: see [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/soar Wiktionary's (4)]. I suppose Webster approximates that with their (2), though.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:58, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

== Top list ==

Should the list at the top include the BS and Kre-O alternate continuity versions listed lower on the page? Should we even consider those separate continuity versions? Should we at least include the Kre-O Stormrazor and Corhada, since those don't appear in the normal continuity?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 10:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:Also the Kre-O versions of the G1 Predacons seem to be regarded as Kre-O Predacons (The Predacon skin on kre-o-nation.com features Predaking and Headlock). Though Rampage,the blindpack dude, is named "Decepticon Rampage", so I don't know where that leaves him. Maybe we need to have a Predacon (Kre-O) article. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:32, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

== Dragotron ==

Is Dragotron ''definitely'' the same being as Predaking, just in a separate continuity? With every other Predacon being a new character, I feel like Dragotron should be one too.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 10:00, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:Everything has presented him as Predaking. We're even told Go! starts after the defeat of Dragotron during Beast Hunters. I don't expect BH to actually end with Predaking buried in a mountain in Japan in the form of FOC Frenzy, but if we're lucky, it'll be vague enough to kinda-sorta line up. Of course, if we later find that Dragotron in Go! has been in that mountain since the twelfth century, and the early writeups were confused or wrong, then it's probably time to make him a new guy. -[[User:LV|LV]] 10:24, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
::I think the issue comes with how Predaking in Beast Hunters has been revealed to be a noble and compassionate villain, instead of the monstrous tyrant bent on destruction that his toy bios have made him out to be. Since the Go! backstory was likely conceived well before the season 3 cartoon was completed, Takara was likewise likely unaware of the cartoon making Predaking out to be not as evil as his bios made him seem. At best, I think we can assume that Dragotron may evoke the Toy Bio/Tales of the Beast Hunters portrayal of Predaking rather than the cartoon portrayal. But, if enough people think we ought to split the two a la the characters from Masterforce and Beast Wars II vs. their Hasbro counterparts, then I would not object to such a split. As of now, though, I'm content either way. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:59, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:::I find it pointless to split two guys who look exactly the same and serve the same function as leader of the Predacons. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 04:36, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::I am unwilling to make a split now. Let's wait to see what else ''Go!'' has in store for us as far as "Dragotron" is concerned. Not that I expect a hell of a lot of depth... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:13, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

I was wondering about this too, and it's connected with a question I have that I realised I didn't know the answer to when watching Go - are the Predaons that appear in Go some of Shockwave's clones, left over from ''Beast Hunters'', or are they some of the original Earthbound Predacons that have survived into the present day, awakening from stasis at the start of the episode? The connections to the ancient past that the existence of the Legendisc seems to weave into the show made me think it was the latter, and if that's the case, then Dragotron is presumably one of those survivors too, and not Predaking. I mean, isn't the idea that Predaking was sealed into a Legendisc by Optimus in the pre-Go/BH-finale backstory? Not buried in a mountain. And even if he was, there's something supremely undramatic about being buried in a mountain for basically a long weekend before a kid wakes you up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:52, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:Very good points. It's mostly a "wait and see" deal, at this point. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:08, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:There's also the whole ''oni'' connection with the Predacons, which looks to me to be implying that these guys are the original inspiration for the mythical creatures, much like how the ''Prime'' cartoon was saying dragon myths are inspired by Predacons. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 12:13, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:"Beast Hunters" didn't happen in Japan, right? They ceased broadcast after the end of Season 2? That means that Predacons haven't appeared at all in the Japanese Prime Continuity until TF: Go!. Maybe we're trying too hard to connect this show to something it was never meant to be connected to. For all we know, these are the ONLY Predacons in the Japanese Prime Continuity.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 20:07, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
::Agreed. This looks like another Rebirth/''The Headmasters'' situation where we get two different interpretations of the same characters. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 20:21, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
:::That's something I've been thinking about, yes. Is Dragotron a case like Chromedome, whose American and Japanese portrayals are so wildly different yet each is regarded here as being two versions of the same character; or is Dragotron a case like the cast of Masterforce whose portrayals are just as wildly diverse between the Western and Eastern versions as Chromedome's are and yet are treated as completely separate characters between each version? There is also the difference in the names of "Predaking" and "Dragotron" when Takara has mostly fully converted to using the same names that Hasbro uses. I mean, in terms based on the "[[Character]]" page, what we have here is a case of "Virtually the same toy, different company, same continuity family, different continuity, different name, different background/history, same role (i.e. - Predacon leader), ??? character". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 21:46, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
::::So the question, then, is is that enough to make him a different character? Unfortunately, we might not get an official word on that until we get some kind of confirmation on whether or not the events of BH happened in the TF: GO! continuity. Not that there's really enough characterization to him at the moment for him to really be worth a separate page... Are there any other examples of the same toy being released as two separate things by T-T and Hasbro?--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 01:17, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::EDIT: It seems like the Energon upgrade characters provide SOME precedence for splitting Dragotron from Predaking: [[Overcast_(Energon)]]--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 01:27, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::It seems like a given that Japan will eventually get BH. If and when they do, it ought to clear this up. In the meantime, I don't think we have enough to bother splitting the page. The Energon Energon redecoes were a much more open-and-shut case, because the appearances in the show were incontrovertibly the old guys, and the tech spec characters were incontrovertibly new characters. -[[User:LV|LV]] 09:38, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::A better example of what you asked about, BraveMax, would be like [[Landmine (G1)|Landmine]] and [[Lander|Lander]], [[Cloudburst]] and [[Phoenix (Masterforce)|Phoenix]], [[Getaway]] and [[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]], [[Slapdash (G1)|Slapdash]] and [[Road King]], [[Hosehead (G1)|Hosehead]] and [[Cab (human)|Cab]], [[Apex Bomber]] and [[Godbomber]], [[Bomb-Burst (G1)|Bomb-Burst]] and [[Blood]], [[Skullgrin]] and [[Dauros]], [[Submarauder (G1)|Submarauder]] and [[Gilmer]], [[Fangry (G1)|Fangry]] and [[Wilder (Masterforce)|Wilder]], [[Horri-Bull|Horri-Bull]] and [[Bullhorn (Masterforce)|Bullhorn]], [[Squeezeplay (G1)|Squeezeplay]] and [[Cancer (Masterforce)|Cancer]], the [[Seacon (G1)|G1 Seacons]] and the [[Seacon (Masterforce)|Masterforce Seacons]], [[B'Boom]] and [[Apache]], [[Snarl (BW)|Snarl]] and [[Tasmania Kid]], [[Powerpinch]] and [[Scissor Boy]], [[Injector]] and [[Rartorata]], etc. All pairs share the same toy with identical decos, but are considered separate characters. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:20, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::Thanks Sabr! LV - what makes you say "it seems like Japan will get BH"? They're releasing the toys NOW, and Takara has clearly bet the farm on TFGO! (It's all you really see around here, aside from the dregs of Prime, these days). What's more, there's new "easy product" coming next year in the form of the 4th movie and whatever the next American TF show is... So... Has there been any evidence that they're considering releasing BH? It's not like other shows where they could dub it over later and act like it's a totally unrelated show - it picks up from the ending of Prime Season 2, which was heavily edited for the Japanese broadcast in such a way that it may not even fit the events of Season 3, and it's not like they're going to re-release the toys. I think there's much more evidence that Prime simply flopped in Japan, and Takara didn't want to prolong a failed experiment.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 21:21, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::On the other hand (from what I was saying before), there are cases like the aforementioned [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] who seem to get a new backstory/characterization with each new portrayal. I mean... just ''look'' at that intro paragraph of his. >_< --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 22:10, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::What was the last TV fiction Hasbro paid for that Takara didn't find a way to use? I can't think of anything but Rescue Bots and Go-Bots since Rebirth. -[[User:LV|LV]] 22:47, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::::True, and true. But we've never quite faced circumstances like these either. I suppose this is another thing we'll just have to wait and see on :-p--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 23:56, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::Which is all I was saying. I suspect we ''will'' end up having to split them, because like the Energon recolors, and unlike the Headmasters, Predaking and Dragotron exist in what is more or less the same continuity. But if Dragotron's information is retroactively incorrectly on Predaking's page for six months, I'm pretty sure it's not the end of th world. (FWIW, I definitely don't think Takara started out intending to make them different guys, because otherwise I assume Predaking's new name would have been Somethingdora.) -[[User:LV|LV]] 08:32, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't see why Takara didn't just call him "Predaking" in the first place if they did want him to be the same guy. After all, he's still the leader, or "king", of the Predacons in Go!, anyway. What purpose his being renaming "Dragotron" serves if he is supposed to be the same guy, ''and'' in an age of Takara using Hasbro names, is completely beyond me. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:24, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::::It wouldn't be TakaraTomy without a "what the hell?" move. There's always something small but baffling going on there. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:03, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::::But in all seriousness... for whatever reason, ''Go!'' is clearly meant to be a complete style/tone-shift away from What America Is Doing. They can't really change the returning characters' names (well they ''could'' like they did in ''Super Link'' but aren't), but anyone who wasn't in the first two seasons of ''Prime'' is fair game. And one can't help but notice that despite the toyline being full of ''Prime'' show-characters... the fiction? Not so much. Or at all. And they're certainly getting just kinda quietly shoved out there toyline-wise... all the big promo stuff is on the NEW NEW NEW guys. Yeah, I don't get why "Dragotron" doesn't have a more Japanesey name like the rest of the Preds, but that might just be a holdover from early development that never got changed. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:27, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
::Personality-wise, Predaking and Dragotron don't seem to be the same. Predaking is almost totally focused on resurrecting his race, and doesn't give a damn about conquering anything; Dragotron does, unless there's supposed to be some subtext about resurrecting the rest of the Predacons. Add that to their incompatible plotlines and how all the other Go! Predacons are distinct, and I really think we can justify a split already, even before the movie comes out.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 18:33, 18 September 2013 (EDT)
:::On the other hand, "Tales of the Beast Hunters" has Predaking being the ruthless tyrant his toy bios describe him as being, which is reflected in Dragotron's character. I guess it depends on how much we want to regard the toy bios and "Tales" stories vs. the Prime cartoon itself.
:::Like I mentioned above, in terms based on the "[[Character]]" page, what we have here is a case of "Virtually the same toy, different company, same continuity family, different continuity, different name, different background/history, same basic role (i.e. - Predacon leader), ??? character". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:40, 18 September 2013 (EDT)

===Round 2===
Now that we've had more info about Dragotron and the ''Go!'' series itself, I think we have enough information to make an educated decision as to whether Dragotron should or shouldn't be considered the same character as Predaking. And I'm putting my vote into splitting the two, based on how we have the Masterforce and Beast Wars II characters being separate from their Hasbro counterparts. While this make sense for the characters of those series whose are portrayed significantly different from the Hasbro versions, there are still those like [[Blood]] and [[Bomb-Burst (G1)|Bomb-Burst]] who aren't all that memorably different aside from their backstories, but are still considered separate on here. But if their minute differences are enough to warrant separate pages, I see no reason why Dragotron can't also be separated from Predaking, as Dragotron's similarities to Predaking are only basic and generic. What's more is that, up until recently, it seemed like the main reason for keeping the two together was the presumption that ''Go!'' would be a sequel to ''Prime Beast Hunters'', with the latter ending in a way that could possibly set things up for the former. However, with the ''Go!'' fiction virtually ignoring ''Beast Hunters'' altogether, as the third season of the ''Prime'' cartoon never came to Japan, the new backstory created for Dragotron is nigh-irreconcilable with Hasbro's backstory for Predaking, with the only similarity between the two character origins being "Shockwave created him" while all other specifics [[Triple Combination: Transformers Go! (cartoon)#Overview|differ drastically]]. Dragotron's official toy bio even specifies that he possesses the ability to transcend time and space, and that his power is connected to the Earthlings, neither of which qualify for Predaking as established by Hasbro. Now, while one could say that this is all just a case similar to, say, ''G1'' [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]]'s differing American and Japanese portrayals, the fact that Takara even went as far as giving Dragotron his own name (in an age where Takara now almost firmly uses Hasbro names) along with his new identity (rather than just recycling and reapplying the name "Predaking" to this new portrayal) suggests that they intended for Dragotron to be his own entity separate from Hasbro's Predaking character, not unlike the aforementioned Masterforce and Beast Wars II characters that we likewise treat as their own characters. Also helps that every single one of Dragotron's minions were likewise given new names and identities (and ''heads'', in four cases), so it would make sense for him to follow in suit. And, really, do we honestly want another character page like Chromedome's that requires us to use multiversal <s>excuses</s> explanations to reconcile the stark differences between the American and Japanese versions of the character? The fact that season 3 of ''Prime'' doesn't exist in ''Go!'''s continuity is also a big indicator here since Predaking is inherently tied to ''Beast Hunters'' and, aside from him and Dragotron sharing the same toy mold and a similar Predacon leader role, it makes little sense to connect the two together when Dragotron exists in a continuity that willfully ignores and contradicts the ''entire reason'' for Predaking's very existence as a character, and which established him as a noble patriot rather than the "Demon Emperor" Dragotron has been set up to be. (As an aside, the absence of season 3 also nullifies [[Project Predacon|episode 57's]] "Predaclones being on Earth in the past" plot point from existing in the Japanese ''Prime'' continuity, as well.) So, yeah, I vote "Yes" to splitting the two. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 22:03, 22 October 2013 (EDT)
:I have no opposition at this point. -[[User:LV|LV]] 23:40, 22 October 2013 (EDT)
::Basically. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:35, 23 October 2013 (EDT)
:::That was a wall of text, wasn't it? I agree, though. We're beyond "Headmasters" vs "Rebirth" territory on this one. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 10:28, 23 October 2013 (EDT)
:I've gone and started the [[Dragotron]] page, but I can't continue with further edits to links and such at the moment since I have to be going. Anyone willing to pitch in is free to do so. I shall return in about five hours. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:45, 23 October 2013 (EDT)
:'Bout time! W00t!--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 01:13, 24 October 2013 (EDT)

A new theory, but possibly too late. Considering that BH says that Shockwave made Predacons for prehistoric Cybertron, is it possible that Dragatron is the first cloned Predaking, thus being more like the original savage one? I understand this doesn’t help the name section, but as has been said before, it’s Takara Tomy we are talking about. [[User:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|Sonatronus, they new Galvatron]] ([[User talk:Sonatronus, they new Galvatron|talk]]) 04:38, 13 January 2020 (EST)

== Are Goradora/his components actually Predacons? ==

Okay, so the Go! show makes it clear that the little jaki/imp guys who form Goradora are generic minion things that the oni Predacons can magic up from cars and stuff. In which case, do they actually count as Predacons in the sense of being members of an ancient species of dragon guys? Are they ever described as such on the show or their packaging? [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 07:40, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
:For the show portrayal, I don't think episode 1 is enough to go by, so we'll have to wait for more episodes to surface. For the packaging, it hasn't come out yet so we've yet to see any pics of it or the bio. So... I guess it's simply to early to tell either way at this point. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:01, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
:If lab-born clones can be Predacons... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:38, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
::I think the idea that they wouldn't be described as Predacons on the toy packaging is a little ridiculous. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 01:33, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
::[https://twitter.com/TFYUKI/status/369766996528742400] <- Link to his package art. He's a Predacon :)--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 08:19, 22 August 2013 (EDT)

== Corhada and Stormrazor ==
Are those referring to the ''Kre-O'' guys, or am I missing something?

On a related note, I'm pretty sure ''Kre-O'' Stormrazor is the ''Kre-O'' version of Skystalker, since early solicits for BH Deluxe Wave 3 named ''Stormrazor'', Ratchet and Dreadwing. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 04:17, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
:Yeah, I'm not sure who moved them up or why, but they probably do belong on the top list. After all, this isn't really "Predacons from Prime", it's "Predacons in the sense of Prime, where they're a third faction of dragons". Also, Kre-O Stormrazor was called Skystalker in the original PowerPoint slide. That seems to be a name that Hasbro was real indecisive about until the very end. That being said, Backbite is also identical to Skystalker, so what's one more? -[[User:LV|LV]] 22:03, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
:This combination of Prime and Kre-O characters on one page really doesn't seem right to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:36, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
::I have been wondering if we should change the title to "Predacon (species)". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:00, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
:::If we do that and have clear subsections for Prime and Kre-O it could work. As is, it's a mess. --18:28, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
:::Aren't the Predacons from Beast Wars also a species? I mean, we've seen no evidence that Maximal/Predacon breeding could produce viable offspring. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:32, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
::::Possibly, but the fact that they can make Predacons from Maximal protoforms, plus the numerous cases of faction switching simply by changing insignias and transformation codes, seem to suggest that Maximal and Predacon are factions rather than separate species. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:38, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

Talk:Predacon (Prime)

2020-01-13T09:37:36Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron: /* Round 2 */

== Kreon Predacons? ==

We count Kreons as their own continuity. But I really feel like the Kreon Predacons are meant to flesh out the Pred numbers. I suppose they don't go here unless they're in aligned? Or can we put all Preds with this faction symbol on the same page, like the Wreckers are. Thoughts?--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 19:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
:That's a good question. These guys are explicitly Beast Hunters-branded, but I doubt Hasbro will make a distinction between BH and non-BH Kre-O fiction. My inclination is to leave them off, but it's an imperfect answer necessitated by our wiki's entire way of handling continuities. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:59, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
::Most of our factional pages are cross-continuity. We only have one Decepticon and Autobot page, instead of Autobot (G1), Autobot (Armada), etc, because they're all really the same entity. But unlike how "Autobot" always means the same thing, the "Predacon" faction often means something different, depending on continuity family, whether it's G1, BW, or (now) Aligned. The Autobot and Decepticon pages are lucky enough to not have to have a "franchise-of-origin" disambiguation parenthetical, but Predacon (Prime) is not. ....long story short, I think Kre-O Predacons can go on this page, because this is the page for This Cross-Continuity Iteration Of Predacons. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:53, 11 October 2012 (EDT)

::Since it's all evidently under the Beast Hunters umbrella, why not just "Predacon (Beast Hunters)"?--[[User:Carrion|Carrion]] 21:48, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
:::Because Beast Hunters is a sub-franchise of Prime. The full title is "Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters". -- [[User:Spydersix|spyder]][[User Talk:Spydersix|Use this!]] 22:33, 11 October 2012 (EDT)
::::Except that these new Kre-O sets also sport the Beast Hunters sub-franchise logo. And they said at the NYCC panel that it's gonna be the 2013 theme of not just the Prime franschise but the whole Transformers brand itself. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:42, 16 October 2012 (EDT)

== Members and plot ==

I'm not real clear on what the preferred format is for subgroup pages, so would it be appropriate to have a list of members as they appear in the show/books, and would info on the Predacon's goals that would be spoilers for recent materials be appropriate for the lead, or does it need to remain within a synopsis until the spoilers expire?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:56, 4 December 2012 (EST)
:Well, I went ahead and added the stuff that's already mentioned on the wiki, figuring that can't be too bad. Should Swoop count as a temporary member?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:27, 12 February 2013 (EST)
::I still think we're artificially merging the concepts of the Predacons and the Forged. Being turned into one of the Forged didn't make Swoop a Predacon, nor were the Forged ever stated to all be Predacons. All of the Forged have been modified to be loyal to Shockwave, but we don't really know what else. Ser-Ket and Backbite are the only two that have displayed beast modes.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 00:40, 12 February 2013 (EST)
:::Oh, I guess I misunderstood the comic book, then. I ''am'' missing #2, so...yeah. Oops!
:::Also, apparently there's some kind of Beast Hunters guidebook written from Shockwave's point of view that's been published. Anyone know if (1) that's kosher for inclusion and (2) the character mentioned within it who is not already on this page is okay to be added? (I don't want to spoil anything that's not already on the wiki)[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:52, 12 February 2013 (EST)
::::That was a pamphlet handed out to folks at ToyFair to hype upcoming releases. As far as I know it's entirely kosher.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 01:01, 12 February 2013 (EST)
:::::When I asked about that pamphlet, one of the Hasbro presenters said that it was an internal document that was meant to pump the team up for Beast Hunters, and that later it was apparently used as a giveaway in Hong Kong, which they didn't find out about it until it hit the internet. We did not receive it for attending US Toy Fair 2013. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 01:19, 12 February 2013 (EST)
::If...it's not meant to ever be given out in English, and was released officially in Hong Kong...does it loophole back to usable?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 02:30, 12 February 2013 (EST)
:::Well with this information it was certainly intended to be given out in English, just not in North America. Hasbro Asia is still an official channel, and thus it ought to still be kosher. It's not a leak.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|Talk]] 03:14, 12 February 2013 (EST)

In regards to the Forged, the latest description of Rage of the Dinobots seems to indicate that they are Predacons, ''possibly'' that Shockwave is one as well. (Of course, the blurb holds no water next to the comic, but just bringing this up).
:''DINOBOT WAR! GRIMLOCK leads the '''DINOBOTS against SHOCKWAVE's troops'''-and the results won't be pretty! With SWOOP under SER-KET's control, it's an all-or-nothing battle of '''DINOBOT versus PREDACON'''-with the fate of CYBERTRON hanging on every punch, blast, jab, and bite! Don't miss the senses-shattering conclusion to this mind-blowing miniseries!''

== Go! Predacon subgroup name ==

The grouping of Bakudora, Budora, Gaidora, and Judora is referred to as 四鬼衆 (''Shikishū''). The first two kanji are easily translatable as "Four Demon", but [http://jisho.org/kanji/details/%E8%A1%86 the last one] leaves me scratching my head. I'm not really sure how to translate it in conjunction to the "Four Demon" part. (In case you're wondering, the Goraadora components are [http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E9%82%AA%E9%AC%BC&eng=&dict=edict Jaki].) [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 23:12, 6 July 2013 (EDT)

: Hmm, pretending no language/translation knowledge but "masses" "great numbers" would the English word "Horde" work at all? "Four Demon Horde" sounds like a thing...--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 00:06, 7 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Oni Army Predacons" is a term I've seen relatively often. With the surfacing of the above other term, I'm now questioning this one's validity. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:59, 7 July 2013 (EDT)
:"鬼" is more often used to portray a ferocious ogre rather than what would be called a demon in the West, so I don't think "demon" is going to be the best here. Maybe "monster" or "ogre"?
:Also, "四衆" is the "four orders of Buddhist followers" or "four assemblies", which this seems to me to be a play on. "The Four Monstrous Assemblies", maybe?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:07, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Oni" are pretty well known of in the Western World, so I'd say it'd be safe to keep that. After all, the word does refer to a specific kind of monster rather than just generic "ogres" or "demons". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 16:58, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
::They aren't assemblies, though. They're just four guys. I assume the use of a group word here is modified by containing four guys, not being multiplied by four. -[[User:LV|LV]] 17:25, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
:::So, they're the "Four Oni Predacons", then? Or should the word "Predacon" come first since it's written as such in Japanese? Something like the "Predacon Four Oni Army"? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 17:55, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
::::If "衆" reads as "army", then, yeah, that'd be what I would go with. I certainly think "oni" in the context of Go! in particular makes more sense than genericizing it. They are clearly oni; making them "monsters" would be like renaming the Swordbots the Knight Team and the Assassin Team. -[[User:LV|LV]] 19:08, 8 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I'm actually unsure if "衆" can be read as "army", since I only got that from other people rather than from a fully proper translation. Though, I do think "Four Oni Predacons" sounds nicer and not as clunky as "Predacon Four Oni (whatever)". But, if we must find a word for "衆", I'd hope for a way to make it sound good enough in English. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:11, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
::I'm a bit unclear on how the Predacons work in Go!, but it sounded like that they could make multiples of the Abominus-repaint. Are we sure they're not doing something similar with the four deluxe/voyager predacons, could they be templates or something?
::"鬼" on its own refers to a specific type of yokai, but is often used in compounds to mean something not quite demonic but merely unfettered and monstrous, like the "Kishin" or "Fierce Deity" Link. "衆" isn't "army", though. It has no military connotation, it means "masses of people". Furthermore, it turns out the "Four Assemblies" thing isn't even the closest match! There is in fact a "[https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%85%AB%E9%83%A8%E9%AC%BC%E8%A1%86 Hachibukishuu]" where the number is 8 rather than 4.
:"ちなみに八部鬼衆は、乾闥婆・毘舎闍・鳩槃荼・薛茘多・那伽（龍）・富單那・夜叉・羅刹の名を挙げる。"
:"Incidentally, Hachibukishu include Kendatsuba, Bishaja, Kuhanda, Heireita, Naga, Futanna, Yasha and Rasetsu (Rakshasa)."
::The way it's described, it seems to be describing races of oni or other Buddhist demons/monsters.
::A somewhat similar construction, "鬼道衆" (which is given as "Demon'''iac''' horde, rather than Demon horde) appears in Tokyo Majin.
::Based on all that, I'd have to say the most accurate translations are either "The Four (Predacon) Hordes" (if there's more than one of each bodyform - this matches the form of the Buddhist analogy) or "The (Predacon) Horde of Four" (if we're absolutely sure there's only one of each).
::On a side note, I'm confused as to how they are clearly Oni rather than just generic yokai or dragons. Can anyone help me out with that?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:16, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Because the episode itself calls them "Oni".
:::It also shows Gaidora, Judora, Budora, and Bakudora to be individuals while the Jaki are just generic fodder that Gaidora can seemingly make at will.
:::So, with "horde" in mind, I guess they'd be the "Predacon Four Oni Horde" or something? Or, if we go by how we refer to "Transformer Daisakusen" as "The Great Transformer War", maybe they'd be the "Four Predacon Oni Horde" or the "Four Oni Predacon Horde"? Actually, that last one kinda sounds like the best option. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:26, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Ah, okay, that context clarifies things immensely! Thanks.
::::"Horde", from what I've found, would be the compound kishuu, rather than just the shuu.
::::"Four Oni Predacon Horde" sounds kind of awkward to me, and sounds like it would confuse whether it's four individuals or four tribes. I'd reocmmend something like the "(Predacon) (Oni) Horde of Four", which flows a bit more naturally and communicates that the horde consists of four members, rather than beings four hordes. Or, if necessary, the "(Predacon) Four-Oni Horde".[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 16:57, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Also, "Horde of Four" sounds faintly like "hors d'oeuvres", which makes me giggle.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 16:58, 9 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I think it would be best to avoid as much of a mouthful title as possible. Though, I'm still skeptical on "Horde" for "shū", and if you say it's more for "kishū" instead of just "shū", then we might wanna think up something else. Out of curiosity, couldn't it just be the "Four Oni Predacons" if the "masses"/"multitude" connotation of "shū" could possibly translate out to just the plurality of the subject (which in this case would be the word "Predacon")? Or, does "shū" have to have its own word? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::It does seem reasonable to leave it out if it just means "group", because in English we don't normally have to specify that a number of related people are a group. "Four Oni Predacons" conveys the same sense as "Predacon Four Oni Group" when used as a proper noun. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

:The "Predacon Oni Quartet". It will save time if they later go into barbershop too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 01:52, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::I like that more than "Four Oni Predacons" or whatever. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 02:06, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Wait, abates ''wasn't'' just making a joke?
:::Anyway, here's a new, but related question. How do we go about handling the components of Goradora? When Gaidora creates them, he speaks (what at least sounds like) the phrase, "Yami no Jaki domo" which Walruslaw subbed as "Jaki minions". On [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%82%E4%B9%97%E5%90%88%E4%BD%93_%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BCGo! Japanese Wikipedia], the "Yami no Jaki" part is there too. But, what would the "domo" bit imply? And if we're to keep "Jaki" as is, what of the "Yami no" part? "Dark Jaki"? "Jaki of Darkness"? Would the "domo" part affect the translation in any manner? Did I even spell "domo" right? Could there be a macron above one or maybe both of the O's in "domo"? ''Gah'', too many questions! --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 02:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
::The implication that I was getting from the words used compared to historical usage of those components is that shu is not there just to imply plurality - simply having "shiki" would have had that meaning. I got the impression that they're trying to communicate that just these four guys together are like a rampaging horde of demons. Again, I've not seen the anime at all so if "Four-Oni Horde" is not an implication given by the material, then "Four Oni Predacons" would be fine...it's just a ''really odd'' construction to use for that.
:"-domo" is usually a second or third-person plural implying ''seriously'' lower status of the subject respective to the speaker, so it's talking to them like they're the cannonfodder. "Yami no Jaki" is "Dark Devils/Imps/Evil Spirits"; with the banality implied by using "-domo", I'd suggest "Dark Imps" or some similar "demon-thing-what-gets-no-respect", like goblin or boogeyman.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:58, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::The episode, unsubbed, is on YouTube to watch. Walruslaw's subbed version, however, can be downloaded from his Google docs account.
:::The four Preds in the anime are really not much of a horde, since the episode has only two of them taking part in the mission, despite all four having awakened together and being simultaneously active (the other two likely went on a different mission to be covered in the Swordbot Shinobi Team episode).
:::As for the Jaki, how well does the "Jaki minions" translation from the fansub work? It seems to be preferable to keep the word "Jaki" since, like "Oni", the episode called them that. Though, while "Dark Jaki" kinda sounds a little iffy, I get the impression that it's the most accurate sounding. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:26, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::What I meant in regards to horde was that it sounds like it's implying that each member is a "One-man horde", more ferocious than your average <s>bear</s> Oni. I mean, they are eons-old alien robot dragons, after all.
:::-domo is just a suffix like -sama. It indicates the level of respect given (in this case, none), and does not actually "mean" minion..it's more like "hey, you Jaki bastards over there, go do what I say". The name of the entities sounds like it's just "Yami no Jaki". My own style is that, if there's a reason to leave part of a Japanese name unWesternized, leave the kanji and hiragana parts as Romaji and only translate the katakana, so I would leave it as "Yami no Jaki" as the name and note the disrespectful usage in notes.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:35, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I think what might help us out the best would be for you to see the episode for yourself. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVOtTVbDovI Here] it is in raw form, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUQSq10LTtw here] it is with Chinese subtitles (if they're of any use to you), and [https://docs.google.com/a/unicron.com/file/d/0B4a6PRwcFIjwOUV1blB4YUk5YVU/edit here] is the downloadable first fansubbed version from Walruslaw (he's done a revision of the subtitle script since, but it hasn't been finalized yet). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 17:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
So, after Sipher's firm speech about not needing to be fancy and being utilitarian in our name translations, "Four Oni Predacons" works well enough to get the point across without needing to beautify the term.
But, there's still the matter of "Yami no Jaki" to deal with for the Goradora components. Are we to keep it as it is, or go with something like "Dark Jaki", "Jaki of Darkness", etc.? (This is important for the fansub) --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 23:24, 11 July 2013 (EDT)
:My opinion is that "Jaki" is primarily a word that doesn't have a good English analogue, but the modifier does. It therefore makes the most sense to me to render it as "Dark Jaki". I can't say I have an overly strong opinion on it, though. -[[User:LV|LV]] 00:10, 12 July 2013 (EDT)
::I'll try to watch the video today, Sabrblade, I'm sorry for the delay.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:25, 13 July 2013 (EDT)

The kanji "衆" is also used sometimes to indicate someone's "public" - IE, retainers, attendants, entourage. Such as the word "男衆". Given their role in the series, I think the best translation here is "Four Predacon Demon Attendants" or something along those lines.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 05:59, 14 July 2013 (EDT)
:But they're not just ordinary "demons", they're called "Oni" by the episode (we even use the word on the franchise page's notes section). Again, we've no need to make this look more pretty than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacons" is fine. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:31, 14 July 2013 (EDT)
::Yeah, leaving it "Oni" is pointless. Sure, most people into Anime know the term, and it may have originated as a specific type of Youkai (which, it's worth noting, was not a "type of demon" so much as something wholly unrelated - "youkai" doesn't mean "demon"), but it's a lot more general in common usage these days. I doubt they really intend anything more than just "demons/evil spirits/ogres". If you want to be super accurate, translate it "Ogre". Also, "Four Oni Predacons" leaves out the "衆" part of the meaning entirely. It should still be "Four Predacon Oni Attendants" or "Four Oni Predacon Attendants" or something like that even if you insist on keeping "Oni" for whatever reason. They're clearly meant to be Dragotron's right-hand henchmen.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 20:48, 14 July 2013 (EDT)
:::[http://tinypic.com/r/10ol1z5/5 The robot mode's heads are clearly designed to look like Oni,] for whatever that's worth. I think "Oni" in this case might actually ''mean'' Oni, not merely a generic for "evil spirit" as is increasingly common. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
::::You're missing the point again. Oni is easily translatable. So why leave it untranslated? Hasn't this wiki demonstrated a virulent dislike of leaving naked Japanese words in play? Also - my main point is the sub group name. Not whether we call them Onis/Ogres/Demons/Frank/Barrack Obama.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 04:08, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::And I tend to agree -- naked Japanese is ''bad'', it usually represents an inability to reach a consensus, so everyone "agrees" to just render the name non-useful.
:::::However one of the features of this debate is whether or not the term "oni" is being used to in the specific sense or the generic sense... as it has become common to use "Oni" to mean "Demon" in recent years. I was pointing out that the heads of the toys actually do seem to resemble Oni, which is a tic in favor of the word. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:04, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:I think what we have here is basically a play on "Four Man Army," and whatever translation we settle on should reflect that.
:Honestly I'd go with "Four Cardinal Terrors" as capturing the spirit of the original without cleaving to the actual words. Translation isn't a word-for-word thing... these words are a venn-diagram whose overlap contains the intended meaning. The question is how to express that.
:"Cardinal" because... hell, I don't know...! Cardinal directions, north, south, east and west? Army isn't right, horde isn't quite right... I think there's a "completeness unto itself" going on here that expresses the idea that these for, collectively, are some sort of prime exemplar -- '''The''' Four Demon Army, the definitive article, with each unit contributing to a greater whole.
:Four 'Mon Army. It's punny in a way that captures the core idea in a way that translates well to western sensibilities. If this were an episode title, I honestyly think we'd render it this way.
:Alas it is not, so we won't. I'm still advocating "Four Cardinal Terrors," or that we at least consider that "basic, fundamental, greatest, highest..." is somewhere int he mix of the idea being expressed even though no individual word translates that way.
:(Derik has ideas about Transformers.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:39, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
::I really don't think we need to make this any more fancy than it needs to be. Keeping it as simple and basic as it can be would help the masses understand it better. Now, if we really do need to find a term for 衆 beyond a mere pluralization of "Predacons", then how about "Unit"? Or "Force(s)"? Something to keep the whole thing from being more of a mouthful than it needs to be. "Four Oni Predacon Unit/Force(s)", "Predacon Four Oni Unit/Force(s)", "Four Predacon Oni Unit/Force(s)"? Though, not in the use of a military connotation (as Kryten noted above that 衆 has none--which also throws "army" right out), but simply of them being part of the same group/team. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 14:26, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:::Okay, watched it.
#It could possibly be Regen Disc, I dunno.
#Erg...flashbacks to Digimon Xros Wars. ''Especially'' based on that, I would not picture "Predacon" as part of the name (see [http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/File:6-09_01.png this similar intro screen]). 衆 means "people" in the most general way - no implication beyond masses. That being said, they are clearly called "Oni" and their helmets are styled after traditional Oni, so yeah, "Four-Oni Horde" or "Four Onis" would both be accurate translations.
#He drops the "Yami no" and "-dono" later, so I'm not sure the official name is anything other than "Jaki". Gaidora is just using language-toward-an-inferior each time he calls on them, so I think "Dark Jaki" would be best, to fit with the "Four Onis".
[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 22:49, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Predacon" is in the title since the full text above the names of both Budora and Gaidora reads as プレダコン四鬼衆 (''Puredacon Shikishū''). So... "Four Oni Predacons", after all?
::As for "Yami no Jaki-dono", I just figured his dropping the rest of it was to refer to "Jaki Gattai" as its own term. As in "The Yami no Jaki-dono were brought together in a Jaki Gattai." Sorta like how one could say "The Swordbots were brought together in a Sanjou Gattai." --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 23:23, 15 July 2013 (EDT)
:::"Predacon ''Four Demon Unit''." Or possibly "''Four Demon Force''" are my recommendation. Simple, to the point. Rather than winge about what best conveys some admittedly ambiguous meaning you just go for the most neutral term possible. Or "Four Oni Band," "Four Demons Crew" (I think the pluralization of demons there actually helps the name hold together better)
:::Is there a reason we can't just use "''Demon Quartet''"? Folding four+group into one word makes it read way, ''waaay'' better in English. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:15, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
:What I meant in regards to "Predacon" is that this format is exactly the same as in Digimon Xros Wars, in which they would say something like "Bagra Army Death General: Apollomon" or "Bagra Army Mysterious Assassin: Baalmon", with the post-Army bit being the actual name of that group. It doesn't seem to be a necessity to shoehorn "Predacon" in there, so I recommend we don't.
:For Jaki, I heard "Jaki Gattai da," which sounds like a command for the Jaki to Gattai, using informal speech (as with -dono), rather than a counterpart to Swordbot Fusion. I have bad hearing, though, so I won't fight that point.
:The character's grandpa clearly calls the Predacons "Oni", so I have to retract my earlier claims that it could be translated into English as "Ogre" or "Monster". "Oni Quartet" would fit, though.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:49, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
::You are right that he does say "Gattai da". I hadn't caught that until now. So, First "Dark Jaki" and then just "Jaki", right?
::Even in the subs of Xros Wars, the "Bagra Army" part of the title was subbed. And, the difference between that and this is that the Bagra Army titles referred to specific unique individuals, whereas this title refers to a group of individuals. A better argument could be made if Tactimon's title read as "Bagra Army Three Head Officers", but it instead reads as "Bagra Army Head Officer". If the "Four" part wasn't here, then the comparison would hold more weight, but it is here so it makes a difference.
::Plus, not every Bagra Army member's titled even had the "Bagra Army" part written in it. Dorbickmon's title in episode 32 was just "Death General", Apollomon's in episode 45 was just "Sun General" (?), and some are just "Bagra Army" ''without'' their personal titles. Very inconsistent, if you ask me. Whereas the titles of both Gaidora and Budora consistently make use of "Predacon" each time.
::Not to mention that, on [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%82%E4%B9%97%E5%90%88%E4%BD%93_%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BCGo! Japanese Wikipedia]'s page for the series, the full title of the group ("Predacon" and all) is repeated for each member, and even for Goradora, never shortening it to remove the "Predacon" part even though it's been stated clearly that they are Predacons. Whereas, Japanese Wikipedia's [http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%87%E3%82%B8%E3%83%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AD%E3%82%B9%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA%E3%81%AE%E7%99%BB%E5%A0%B4%E4%BA%BA%E7%89%A9%E3%83%BB%E4%B8%96%E7%95%8C#.E3.83.90.E3.82.B0.E3.83.A9.E5.B8.9D.E5.9B.BD Xros Wars character page] ''doesn't'' repeat "Bagra Army" for each member's title like the "Predacon" part of "Predacon Shikishū". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:32, 16 July 2013 (EDT)
:::However, I can think of a reasonable compromise that let's "Predacon" able to be kept or dropped depending on the situation. If we put the word at the beginning, we could say "the Predacon Four Oni 衆" or "the Four Oni 衆". Over on Allspark, Derik suggested "Clan" for 衆, but does it fit? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 00:53, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
::::"Clan" is a terrible translation. It's nearly always 一族 (''ichizoku''). I still think "Predacon Oni Quartet" sounds better. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 01:02, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::"Quartet" just doesn't sound right for these guys, as the connotations related to it evoke something as silly as a barbershop quartet. It sounds less intimidating and powerful than the more universal/neutral term of just "Four". "Quartet" works more for a non-threatening group, which these guys are meant to be anything but. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:18, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:Just pluralizing Oni is totally acceptable. "shu" really doesn't mean anything beyond "we got more than a few people here, bro." We don't need to get fancy with it if we don't want to.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 00:56, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
::Alrighty, then. Though, after looking up all those "Bagra Army" mentions and lacks thereof, I'm actually now curious as to whether プレダコン四鬼衆 has ever been rendered as just 四鬼衆 in any official medium, or always fully as プレダコン四鬼衆 (like the Japanese Wikipedia gave the impression of it being). If there is a mention anywhere of the title that lacks the "Predacon" part, then I think we could go with "Predacon Four Oni"/"Four Oni" (or maybe even "Predacon Oni Four"/"Oni Four"). But if it's always rendered with "Predacon" included, then I'd opt for "Four Oni Predacons". I found [http://s21.postimg.org/hnvybr8rr/2408_2.jpg a photo of Gaidora's packaging bio], and [http://s16.postimg.org/o9edq1qrp/1369271664_4.jpg a magazine scan with a description of Gaidora]. Can you make out if the title is mentioned in either of these at all and if it does or doesn't include "Predacon"? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:18, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:::In both cases there are parts where 四鬼衆 is used without prefacing it with "Predacon". That being said... From a Japanese perspective, there's no reason to include "衆" at the end if it doesn't impart meaning - it's grammatically unnecessary. I think you're missing something by just going with "Oni Quartet". At this point, though, I should think I've made my preferred translation quite clear: www.metasubs.net.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 02:21, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::::There's a historical example of the ''exact same compound'' but with different numbers, which translates as "The Eight Legions". The only compounds I can find with an attendant implication are those that use it euphemistically, as a rich man would have "his men". Furthermore, they fight for Dragotron, they aren't shown attending to him.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:49, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::Dragotron isn't even fully awake yet. It's clear that they're doing his bidding/attempting to awaken him. Also, Gaidora is referred to on his packaging as "one" of the 四鬼衆. So... What... He's one of the four legions? That translation makes no sense. We have evidence of FOUR Oni Predacons - not four legions of them.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 23:04, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::I'm not suggesting it be "four legions", just pointing at the relevant translations ''also'' just focusing on plurality of people, not any specific role for them. Gaidora is one of the Four Onis, there's no need to incorporate connotations that aren't present in similar words or the fiction itself. "Attendant" generally doesn't imply "someone who's doing things for you", it's connotation is more someone who focuses on making you comfortable. Your soldiers generally aren't described as your attendants.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 11:53, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::As an aside, "Oni" is both singular and plural. "Onis" is an improper use of the word. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:46, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::As Sabrblade pointed out, Japanese grammar doesn't work that way. There IS no plural in Japanese in most cases. Adding an "s" at the end of Japanese words or words translated from Japanese is an affectation from people translating to English, which DOES have plurals. If they wanted it to be "The four oni", they would have made the title "四鬼". That "衆" cannot simply "pluralize" the term. It MUST impart some additional meaning to "鬼" here. The only valid point of discussion is what that additional meaning is. As "鬼衆" isn't an extant compound (as far as any of us have found), it must be one TakaraTomy made up, and it must be reasonably easy for the audience to guess the meaning for. So, we're simply looking at the most likely meanings of the compound. The meaning "Oni legions" or "Oni populace" doesn't make sense (given that they tell us up front that there are only 4 of them), but having them be Dragotron's footmen or servants DOES. Especially as an honorary title. Regardless of what they actually do, they might be viewed by the rest of the army has his attendants or servants. His "right-hand men".--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 23:15, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::::Watching an old episode of Digimon Tamers, I noticed that the word was used to refer to a "people" (which the subs correctly translated it as). However "Four Oni People" sounds wonky enough to leave the "people" part redundant and unecessary since Oni can already be viewed as a people without needing the word to tell us such, so... yeah. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 01:49, 20 July 2013 (EDT)
::Pretty sure that's not what Sabrblade was pointing out (merely that I had misspelled Oni as "Onis"). And...I've said a ''lot'' of times that it's an extant compound. I've provided historical usages of the compound where the only thing that differs is the number at the front. Dude, the kanji simply doesn't imply "role", it implies a mass of people. Using it as a pluralizer (which Japanese ''does'' use kanji for, in several cases) is absolutely normal and acceptable.
::In addition, using the "legions" translation, our term would just be "The Four Legions", not "Oni legions" or anything. Again, the historical usage of the compound gives a faint connotation of one-men armies, but simply pluralizing it as "Four Oni" gets the same point across.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 13:02, 20 July 2013 (EDT)
:::You've provided ONE historical usage of the compound "鬼衆". "八部鬼衆", right? It refers to 8 legions of "fierce god" servants of the Shitennou. That compound is using "部" (division, section) and "衆" to indicate "legions" (divided masses). You and I both know that kanji often have multiple shades of meaning, but generally mean similar things when put into similar conjunctions. If TakaraTomy wanted to make these the "4 oni legions" or "four oni legionnaires", why not finish out the pattern? Why not "四部鬼衆"? If anything, following that logic this title should be "Four demon horde". IE, a horde comprised of four demons. But even in the examples you provided (and in similar ones from Buddhism - "四部衆" and "八部衆") we're talking about groups of SERVANTS and protectors. They're attendants, essentially. I'd argue that connotation makes a lot more sense than them simply being a "four demon horde". As for pluralization via kanji... It happens in specific and limited instances, such as when you need to specify that information applies to ALL of ____. Generally not to simply add an "s" onto something like we would in English, and especially not when it's a simple counter. IE, you might say "Sensei-tachi" (Because you specifically want to include ALL of the teachers in your comment), but you'd never say "Sensei Yon-nin-tachi".--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 09:02, 21 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Since you mention the Shitennou, I've been told (well, it felt more like being "lectured", really) that an alternate translation to refer to the "Four Heavenly Kings" would be as the "Four Generals". In a sense, these four Predacons feel sort of like to Dragotron what the Shitennou were to their master, as in, they'd be something like Dragotron's "Four Oni Generals". But, that's probably not an accurate translation that we could use (man, this is tricky). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:21, 21 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::I already suggested all of that earlier in the thread, and modified my suggestion based on the discussion you can read above. What I've been trying to explain with the "attendant" thing is that there's neither fictional context nor historical precedent to highlight it as the ''best'' choice, and it's not a literal translation so we don't have to choose it. You can view the characters as attendants if you squint, but if you had to pick a word off the top of your head, "attendant" wouldn't be it, and the title doesn't require it either. We can cover historical precedent, literal translation, and fictional context sufficiently with "Four Oni", in my mind, plus it fits well with "Dark Jaki".[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 02:11, 22 July 2013 (EDT)
::::::Well - I feel like we've both made out points clear. I don't think we're going to agree on this. Personally, I kind of feel like we need a higher authority to settle this. For me, that means asking around to some of my English-speaking Japanese friends. Another option that's been mentioned is asking Hydra ;)--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 06:11, 23 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::::Houston, we have some answers! I talked to Hydra about both this and several Transformers Go! terms, to which he gave [http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=94490&view=findpost&p=2364068 the following responses]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:02, 31 July 2013 (EDT)

::So:
*Predacon Four Oni/Fearsome Four
*Dark Imps/Dark Goblins
*Triple Combination/Threefold Combination
*Legendisc
*Emergency Dualblade Style
*Super-aero Longblade Style*
*Firefighting Assault Style
*Zan, Jin, Gin

:Regarding the first three, I suggest Four Oni, Dark Imps, and Threefold Combination, per the reasons I'd discussed elsewhere. Regarding Super-aero, WWWJDIC lists that Choukuukan and Choukuudou (超空''間'' and 超空''洞'', respectively) are "hyperspace" and "void"...while Jinbu is a jet, he is pretty spaceshippy and I think "Hyperspace Longblade Style" might capture that, as well as the super-speed Hydra mentioned. If not that, then perhaps wiggle it a bit to "Machspeed Longblade Style"?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 14:18, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::"Triple" is what's been chosen, works, is most recognizable, and therefore seems to be what this Wiki is going to stick with.
::"Four Oni" suffices. "Fearsome Four" was just what Hydra said he would call them if he, personally, were to localize the name in an English version, but we're not localizing, we're translating.
::For GoJinbu's attack, Jinbu's meant to be a fighter jet. The "Hyperspace" suggestion has been considered, but rejected as explained better [http://www.metasubs.net/?p=26#more-26 here]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 16:21, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:In my opinion, metasubs does not give a satisfying rationale on this matter at all, as it seems to amount to ignoring the available context. Especially if we're going for a "literal" translation, "High-flying" is, well, not it. (That being said, although I acknowledged earlier that Jinbu is based on a fighter jet, he is still first and foremost a space alien, nevermind that tons of characters in anime get "Meteor" etc. attacks without being spacefaring.)
:Since the discussion on Sanjou is closed, I'll not push it, although I maintain that Threefold was the better choice.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 18:36, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::Which is why it'll probably be changed to something more fitting than "High-flying". I've asked BraveMax to chime in about it, so let's wait and see. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 19:07, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:::"Oni" and frankly, I'd stick with "Jaki" over "imps" or "goblins" since this series is hyper-damn-Japanesey. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 18:52, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::::After my conversing with Hydra on the matter, he spelled out how "Jaki" is far more generic and non-special than "Oni" are, pretty much just referring to any ordinary minor demon or evil spirit ("Imps" and "Goblins" were his suggestions), rather than any specific breed of creature from Japanese folklore. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 19:04, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::Actually, I've got no intention of changing "High-flying" just yet. "超空" is used in some space-related compounds, but I just haven't found anything that I like that remotely fits with the samurai theme or Jinbu's character. Regardless of whether or not they're space aliens, they react like they've never seen modern vehicles before when they make their initial appearance - it doesn't make sense to say he uses a "hyperspace" based style when he barely knows what a jet is. Hydra's suggestion of "super-aero" is probably the best alternative so far, but I think he's wrong about it relating more to high-speed than high-altitude. Superaerodynamics refers to the study of aerodynamics at high altitudes, so without the "dynamics", "super-aero" just means "high-altitude flight" - "High-flying". The other two examples I provide ("Universe", essentially, and "Hyperspace") both basically refer to higher and higher levels of flight, not necessarily speed. I do get what he's saying, and certainly a speed-related translation would fit Jinbu's motif, but "super-aero" doesn't do it for me, and neither does "hyperspace". Until I find something better with the right nuance... I'm sticking with "High-flying".--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 21:01, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:::How about just... "Soaring"? As, it refers to flying at a decently high altitude. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 22:11, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
::::Yes... But it's also utterly unrelated to speed :-p--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 22:41, 31 July 2013 (EDT)
:::::No, "soaring" is a pretty standard synonym for "moving pretty damn fast".[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 10:23, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::Webster's disagrees: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soar--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 10:30, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::It confuses me that Webster disagrees, because the usage is pretty common: see [http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/soar Wiktionary's (4)]. I suppose Webster approximates that with their (2), though.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 09:58, 2 August 2013 (EDT)

== Top list ==

Should the list at the top include the BS and Kre-O alternate continuity versions listed lower on the page? Should we even consider those separate continuity versions? Should we at least include the Kre-O Stormrazor and Corhada, since those don't appear in the normal continuity?[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 10:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)
:Also the Kre-O versions of the G1 Predacons seem to be regarded as Kre-O Predacons (The Predacon skin on kre-o-nation.com features Predaking and Headlock). Though Rampage,the blindpack dude, is named "Decepticon Rampage", so I don't know where that leaves him. Maybe we need to have a Predacon (Kre-O) article. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:32, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

== Dragotron ==

Is Dragotron ''definitely'' the same being as Predaking, just in a separate continuity? With every other Predacon being a new character, I feel like Dragotron should be one too.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 10:00, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:Everything has presented him as Predaking. We're even told Go! starts after the defeat of Dragotron during Beast Hunters. I don't expect BH to actually end with Predaking buried in a mountain in Japan in the form of FOC Frenzy, but if we're lucky, it'll be vague enough to kinda-sorta line up. Of course, if we later find that Dragotron in Go! has been in that mountain since the twelfth century, and the early writeups were confused or wrong, then it's probably time to make him a new guy. -[[User:LV|LV]] 10:24, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
::I think the issue comes with how Predaking in Beast Hunters has been revealed to be a noble and compassionate villain, instead of the monstrous tyrant bent on destruction that his toy bios have made him out to be. Since the Go! backstory was likely conceived well before the season 3 cartoon was completed, Takara was likewise likely unaware of the cartoon making Predaking out to be not as evil as his bios made him seem. At best, I think we can assume that Dragotron may evoke the Toy Bio/Tales of the Beast Hunters portrayal of Predaking rather than the cartoon portrayal. But, if enough people think we ought to split the two a la the characters from Masterforce and Beast Wars II vs. their Hasbro counterparts, then I would not object to such a split. As of now, though, I'm content either way. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:59, 17 July 2013 (EDT)
:::I find it pointless to split two guys who look exactly the same and serve the same function as leader of the Predacons. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 04:36, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::I am unwilling to make a split now. Let's wait to see what else ''Go!'' has in store for us as far as "Dragotron" is concerned. Not that I expect a hell of a lot of depth... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 05:13, 18 July 2013 (EDT)

I was wondering about this too, and it's connected with a question I have that I realised I didn't know the answer to when watching Go - are the Predaons that appear in Go some of Shockwave's clones, left over from ''Beast Hunters'', or are they some of the original Earthbound Predacons that have survived into the present day, awakening from stasis at the start of the episode? The connections to the ancient past that the existence of the Legendisc seems to weave into the show made me think it was the latter, and if that's the case, then Dragotron is presumably one of those survivors too, and not Predaking. I mean, isn't the idea that Predaking was sealed into a Legendisc by Optimus in the pre-Go/BH-finale backstory? Not buried in a mountain. And even if he was, there's something supremely undramatic about being buried in a mountain for basically a long weekend before a kid wakes you up. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:52, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:Very good points. It's mostly a "wait and see" deal, at this point. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:08, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:There's also the whole ''oni'' connection with the Predacons, which looks to me to be implying that these guys are the original inspiration for the mythical creatures, much like how the ''Prime'' cartoon was saying dragon myths are inspired by Predacons. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 12:13, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
:"Beast Hunters" didn't happen in Japan, right? They ceased broadcast after the end of Season 2? That means that Predacons haven't appeared at all in the Japanese Prime Continuity until TF: Go!. Maybe we're trying too hard to connect this show to something it was never meant to be connected to. For all we know, these are the ONLY Predacons in the Japanese Prime Continuity.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 20:07, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
::Agreed. This looks like another Rebirth/''The Headmasters'' situation where we get two different interpretations of the same characters. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 20:21, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
:::That's something I've been thinking about, yes. Is Dragotron a case like Chromedome, whose American and Japanese portrayals are so wildly different yet each is regarded here as being two versions of the same character; or is Dragotron a case like the cast of Masterforce whose portrayals are just as wildly diverse between the Western and Eastern versions as Chromedome's are and yet are treated as completely separate characters between each version? There is also the difference in the names of "Predaking" and "Dragotron" when Takara has mostly fully converted to using the same names that Hasbro uses. I mean, in terms based on the "[[Character]]" page, what we have here is a case of "Virtually the same toy, different company, same continuity family, different continuity, different name, different background/history, same role (i.e. - Predacon leader), ??? character". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 21:46, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
::::So the question, then, is is that enough to make him a different character? Unfortunately, we might not get an official word on that until we get some kind of confirmation on whether or not the events of BH happened in the TF: GO! continuity. Not that there's really enough characterization to him at the moment for him to really be worth a separate page... Are there any other examples of the same toy being released as two separate things by T-T and Hasbro?--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 01:17, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::EDIT: It seems like the Energon upgrade characters provide SOME precedence for splitting Dragotron from Predaking: [[Overcast_(Energon)]]--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 01:27, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::It seems like a given that Japan will eventually get BH. If and when they do, it ought to clear this up. In the meantime, I don't think we have enough to bother splitting the page. The Energon Energon redecoes were a much more open-and-shut case, because the appearances in the show were incontrovertibly the old guys, and the tech spec characters were incontrovertibly new characters. -[[User:LV|LV]] 09:38, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::A better example of what you asked about, BraveMax, would be like [[Landmine (G1)|Landmine]] and [[Lander|Lander]], [[Cloudburst]] and [[Phoenix (Masterforce)|Phoenix]], [[Getaway]] and [[Lightfoot (Masterforce)|Lightfoot]], [[Slapdash (G1)|Slapdash]] and [[Road King]], [[Hosehead (G1)|Hosehead]] and [[Cab (human)|Cab]], [[Apex Bomber]] and [[Godbomber]], [[Bomb-Burst (G1)|Bomb-Burst]] and [[Blood]], [[Skullgrin]] and [[Dauros]], [[Submarauder (G1)|Submarauder]] and [[Gilmer]], [[Fangry (G1)|Fangry]] and [[Wilder (Masterforce)|Wilder]], [[Horri-Bull|Horri-Bull]] and [[Bullhorn (Masterforce)|Bullhorn]], [[Squeezeplay (G1)|Squeezeplay]] and [[Cancer (Masterforce)|Cancer]], the [[Seacon (G1)|G1 Seacons]] and the [[Seacon (Masterforce)|Masterforce Seacons]], [[B'Boom]] and [[Apache]], [[Snarl (BW)|Snarl]] and [[Tasmania Kid]], [[Powerpinch]] and [[Scissor Boy]], [[Injector]] and [[Rartorata]], etc. All pairs share the same toy with identical decos, but are considered separate characters. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:20, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::Thanks Sabr! LV - what makes you say "it seems like Japan will get BH"? They're releasing the toys NOW, and Takara has clearly bet the farm on TFGO! (It's all you really see around here, aside from the dregs of Prime, these days). What's more, there's new "easy product" coming next year in the form of the 4th movie and whatever the next American TF show is... So... Has there been any evidence that they're considering releasing BH? It's not like other shows where they could dub it over later and act like it's a totally unrelated show - it picks up from the ending of Prime Season 2, which was heavily edited for the Japanese broadcast in such a way that it may not even fit the events of Season 3, and it's not like they're going to re-release the toys. I think there's much more evidence that Prime simply flopped in Japan, and Takara didn't want to prolong a failed experiment.--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 21:21, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::On the other hand (from what I was saying before), there are cases like the aforementioned [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] who seem to get a new backstory/characterization with each new portrayal. I mean... just ''look'' at that intro paragraph of his. >_< --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 22:10, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::What was the last TV fiction Hasbro paid for that Takara didn't find a way to use? I can't think of anything but Rescue Bots and Go-Bots since Rebirth. -[[User:LV|LV]] 22:47, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::::True, and true. But we've never quite faced circumstances like these either. I suppose this is another thing we'll just have to wait and see on :-p--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 23:56, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::Which is all I was saying. I suspect we ''will'' end up having to split them, because like the Energon recolors, and unlike the Headmasters, Predaking and Dragotron exist in what is more or less the same continuity. But if Dragotron's information is retroactively incorrectly on Predaking's page for six months, I'm pretty sure it's not the end of th world. (FWIW, I definitely don't think Takara started out intending to make them different guys, because otherwise I assume Predaking's new name would have been Somethingdora.) -[[User:LV|LV]] 08:32, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::::::I don't see why Takara didn't just call him "Predaking" in the first place if they did want him to be the same guy. After all, he's still the leader, or "king", of the Predacons in Go!, anyway. What purpose his being renaming "Dragotron" serves if he is supposed to be the same guy, ''and'' in an age of Takara using Hasbro names, is completely beyond me. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 11:24, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::::It wouldn't be TakaraTomy without a "what the hell?" move. There's always something small but baffling going on there. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:03, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::::But in all seriousness... for whatever reason, ''Go!'' is clearly meant to be a complete style/tone-shift away from What America Is Doing. They can't really change the returning characters' names (well they ''could'' like they did in ''Super Link'' but aren't), but anyone who wasn't in the first two seasons of ''Prime'' is fair game. And one can't help but notice that despite the toyline being full of ''Prime'' show-characters... the fiction? Not so much. Or at all. And they're certainly getting just kinda quietly shoved out there toyline-wise... all the big promo stuff is on the NEW NEW NEW guys. Yeah, I don't get why "Dragotron" doesn't have a more Japanesey name like the rest of the Preds, but that might just be a holdover from early development that never got changed. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 12:27, 15 August 2013 (EDT)
::Personality-wise, Predaking and Dragotron don't seem to be the same. Predaking is almost totally focused on resurrecting his race, and doesn't give a damn about conquering anything; Dragotron does, unless there's supposed to be some subtext about resurrecting the rest of the Predacons. Add that to their incompatible plotlines and how all the other Go! Predacons are distinct, and I really think we can justify a split already, even before the movie comes out.[[User:KrytenKoro|KrytenKoro]] 18:33, 18 September 2013 (EDT)
:::On the other hand, "Tales of the Beast Hunters" has Predaking being the ruthless tyrant his toy bios describe him as being, which is reflected in Dragotron's character. I guess it depends on how much we want to regard the toy bios and "Tales" stories vs. the Prime cartoon itself.
:::Like I mentioned above, in terms based on the "[[Character]]" page, what we have here is a case of "Virtually the same toy, different company, same continuity family, different continuity, different name, different background/history, same basic role (i.e. - Predacon leader), ??? character". --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 18:40, 18 September 2013 (EDT)

===Round 2===
Now that we've had more info about Dragotron and the ''Go!'' series itself, I think we have enough information to make an educated decision as to whether Dragotron should or shouldn't be considered the same character as Predaking. And I'm putting my vote into splitting the two, based on how we have the Masterforce and Beast Wars II characters being separate from their Hasbro counterparts. While this make sense for the characters of those series whose are portrayed significantly different from the Hasbro versions, there are still those like [[Blood]] and [[Bomb-Burst (G1)|Bomb-Burst]] who aren't all that memorably different aside from their backstories, but are still considered separate on here. But if their minute differences are enough to warrant separate pages, I see no reason why Dragotron can't also be separated from Predaking, as Dragotron's similarities to Predaking are only basic and generic. What's more is that, up until recently, it seemed like the main reason for keeping the two together was the presumption that ''Go!'' would be a sequel to ''Prime Beast Hunters'', with the latter ending in a way that could possibly set things up for the former. However, with the ''Go!'' fiction virtually ignoring ''Beast Hunters'' altogether, as the third season of the ''Prime'' cartoon never came to Japan, the new backstory created for Dragotron is nigh-irreconcilable with Hasbro's backstory for Predaking, with the only similarity between the two character origins being "Shockwave created him" while all other specifics [[Triple Combination: Transformers Go! (cartoon)#Overview|differ drastically]]. Dragotron's official toy bio even specifies that he possesses the ability to transcend time and space, and that his power is connected to the Earthlings, neither of which qualify for Predaking as established by Hasbro. Now, while one could say that this is all just a case similar to, say, ''G1'' [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]]'s differing American and Japanese portrayals, the fact that Takara even went as far as giving Dragotron his own name (in an age where Takara now almost firmly uses Hasbro names) along with his new identity (rather than just recycling and reapplying the name "Predaking" to this new portrayal) suggests that they intended for Dragotron to be his own entity separate from Hasbro's Predaking character, not unlike the aforementioned Masterforce and Beast Wars II characters that we likewise treat as their own characters. Also helps that every single one of Dragotron's minions were likewise given new names and identities (and ''heads'', in four cases), so it would make sense for him to follow in suit. And, really, do we honestly want another character page like Chromedome's that requires us to use multiversal <s>excuses</s> explanations to reconcile the stark differences between the American and Japanese versions of the character? The fact that season 3 of ''Prime'' doesn't exist in ''Go!'''s continuity is also a big indicator here since Predaking is inherently tied to ''Beast Hunters'' and, aside from him and Dragotron sharing the same toy mold and a similar Predacon leader role, it makes little sense to connect the two together when Dragotron exists in a continuity that willfully ignores and contradicts the ''entire reason'' for Predaking's very existence as a character, and which established him as a noble patriot rather than the "Demon Emperor" Dragotron has been set up to be. (As an aside, the absence of season 3 also nullifies [[Project Predacon|episode 57's]] "Predaclones being on Earth in the past" plot point from existing in the Japanese ''Prime'' continuity, as well.) So, yeah, I vote "Yes" to splitting the two. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 22:03, 22 October 2013 (EDT)
:I have no opposition at this point. -[[User:LV|LV]] 23:40, 22 October 2013 (EDT)
::Basically. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:35, 23 October 2013 (EDT)
:::That was a wall of text, wasn't it? I agree, though. We're beyond "Headmasters" vs "Rebirth" territory on this one. [[User:Hooper X|-hx]] 10:28, 23 October 2013 (EDT)
:I've gone and started the [[Dragotron]] page, but I can't continue with further edits to links and such at the moment since I have to be going. Anyone willing to pitch in is free to do so. I shall return in about five hours. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 12:45, 23 October 2013 (EDT)
:'Bout time! W00t!--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 01:13, 24 October 2013 (EDT)

A new theory, but possibly too late. Considering that BH says that Shockwave made Predacons for prehistoric Cybertron, is it possible that Dragatron is the first cloned Predaking, thus being more like the original savage one? I understand this doesn’t help the name section, but as has been said before, it’s Takara Tomy we are talking about.

== Are Goradora/his components actually Predacons? ==

Okay, so the Go! show makes it clear that the little jaki/imp guys who form Goradora are generic minion things that the oni Predacons can magic up from cars and stuff. In which case, do they actually count as Predacons in the sense of being members of an ancient species of dragon guys? Are they ever described as such on the show or their packaging? [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 07:40, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
:For the show portrayal, I don't think episode 1 is enough to go by, so we'll have to wait for more episodes to surface. For the packaging, it hasn't come out yet so we've yet to see any pics of it or the bio. So... I guess it's simply to early to tell either way at this point. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] 10:01, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
:If lab-born clones can be Predacons... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 15:38, 26 July 2013 (EDT)
::I think the idea that they wouldn't be described as Predacons on the toy packaging is a little ridiculous. [[User:Mimi|Mimi]] 01:33, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
::[https://twitter.com/TFYUKI/status/369766996528742400] <- Link to his package art. He's a Predacon :)--[[User:BraveMax|BraveMax]] 08:19, 22 August 2013 (EDT)

== Corhada and Stormrazor ==
Are those referring to the ''Kre-O'' guys, or am I missing something?

On a related note, I'm pretty sure ''Kre-O'' Stormrazor is the ''Kre-O'' version of Skystalker, since early solicits for BH Deluxe Wave 3 named ''Stormrazor'', Ratchet and Dreadwing. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] 04:17, 1 August 2013 (EDT)
:Yeah, I'm not sure who moved them up or why, but they probably do belong on the top list. After all, this isn't really "Predacons from Prime", it's "Predacons in the sense of Prime, where they're a third faction of dragons". Also, Kre-O Stormrazor was called Skystalker in the original PowerPoint slide. That seems to be a name that Hasbro was real indecisive about until the very end. That being said, Backbite is also identical to Skystalker, so what's one more? -[[User:LV|LV]] 22:03, 13 August 2013 (EDT)
:This combination of Prime and Kre-O characters on one page really doesn't seem right to me. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:36, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
::I have been wondering if we should change the title to "Predacon (species)". --[[User:Abates|abates]] 17:00, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
:::If we do that and have clear subsections for Prime and Kre-O it could work. As is, it's a mess. --18:28, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
:::Aren't the Predacons from Beast Wars also a species? I mean, we've seen no evidence that Maximal/Predacon breeding could produce viable offspring. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 18:32, 5 September 2013 (EDT)
::::Possibly, but the fact that they can make Predacons from Maximal protoforms, plus the numerous cases of faction switching simply by changing insignias and transformation codes, seem to suggest that Maximal and Predacon are factions rather than separate species. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:38, 5 September 2013 (EDT)

CHUG

2018-12-15T16:51:39Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

[[File:ClassicsPrime Voyager.jpg|thumb|310px|"A bogstandard retail toyline targeted towards adult collectors? How silly! Like that's ever going to sell..."]]
'''CHUG''' is a common fan [[Abbreviations|acronym]] derived from the ''[[Transformers: Classics|'''C'''lassics]]'', ''[[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (toyline)|'''H'''enkei]]'', ''[[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|'''U'''niverse]]'', and ''[[Transformers: Generations|'''G'''enerations]]'' toylines, although it also designates later series following the same aesthetic and design philosophy. If we were to be pedantic, the complete terminology should be "'''CHUGRtSUT30LCWUWTRPotPS'''" but, since it doesn't roll off the tongue all that well, distinctive sublines of ''Generations'' series are often just contained within the term.

These are all unified and generally considered as one singular toyline by being modern re-imaginations of classic ''Transformers'' characters, most often from [[The Transformers (toyline)|Generation 1]] but also occasionally including later eras like ''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]]'', ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'', ''[[Beast Machines: Transformers (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'', ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'', and ''[[Transformers: Armada (toyline)|Armada]]''. Sculpts and engineering are also shared between these lines, with groups like the [[Seeker (body-type)|Seeker]]s and the [[Insecticon (G1)|Insecticon]]s having their individual characters being sequentially released across the span of different CHUG series. Prior to the launch of what is now known as the ''[[Prime Wars Trilogy]]'', these lines didn't really have any line-wide gimmicks, unlike most mainline ''Transformers'' series.

If seen as a single unified toyline, CHUG can be considered the longest running series in the Transformers franchise, lasting from 2006 up until today.

==Toylines generally accepted as CHUG==
*''[[Transformers: Classics|Classics]]'' (2006 - 2007)
:Initially conceived as a brief filler line between [[Transformers: Cybertron (toyline)|Cybertron]] and [[Transformers (2007 toyline)|the first live action film]], ''Classics'' was Hasbro's first attempt at producing a series consisting entirely of modernized Generation 1 characters in Deluxe and Voyager sizes. Despite its short run, it proved to be successful enough to lay the foundations for the later ''Universe'' and ''Generations'' toylines. As an homage to the original toys, most figures featured [[rubsign]]s.

*''[[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]]'' (2008 - 2009)
:Directly following up on the success of ''Classics'', ''Universe'' was a substantially bigger and more intricate toyline, heavily expanding on the original concept of modernized G1 characters with various new molds and also expanding its scope in its second year--the 25th anniversary of the [[Transformers brand|brand]]--with the introduction of some figures based around ''[[Transformers: Armada (toyline)|Armada]]'' and the [[Beast Era]]. These figures were generally more complex than those introduced in ''Classics'', a design choice which is commonly attributed to the concurrent [[Live-action film series|live-action movie]] toylines. This line was also supplemented by redecoes of various molds from older lines, particularly ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (toyline)| Cybertron]]''. Every figure was labelled to indicate which 'sub-series' it was a part of - for instance, [[Dropshot (G1)#Universe (2008)|Dropshot]] was labelled 'Classics Series' while [[Overload (Armada)#Universe (2008)|Overload]] was labelled 'Cybertron Series' - despite both being redecoes of [[Scattorshot (Cybertron)|the same mold]]!

*''[[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (toyline)|Henkei! Henkei!]]'' (2008 - 2009)
:Concurrently available with Hasbro's ''Universe'' line, ''Henkei! Henkei!'' was [[TakaraTomy]]'s Japanese equivalent for both ''Classics'' and ''Universe'', featuring more cartoon-accurate paintjobs and pack-in mangas. These figures all had various areas cast in [[Vacuum metallizing|vacuum-metalized plastic]], whether it made much sense or not. Some exclusive Takara releases would be sold under the name ''[[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (toyline)#Gentei! Gentei!|Gentei! Gentei!]]'' instead, a small subline that is generally considered to be part of the ''Henkei'' range.

*''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' (2010 - Present day and continuing]
:From 2010 on, ''Generations'' became Hasbro's umbrella term to designate all upcoming releases based on the same concept. Initally limited to the Deluxe price point, it was later expanded to include figures in other sizes as well. Most of the following lines are directly branched from this one.

*''[[Reveal the Shield]]'' (2010 - 2011)
:Concurrently available with the original run of ''Generations'', ''Reveal the Shield'' was a confusing [[subline imprint]] by Hasbro that incorporated both figures originally intended for the ''Generations'' line (with some sculpts shared between both lines) and Movie-verse characters under the same label. Most notably, these all featured [[rubsign]]s, hence the title of the toyline.

*''[[Transformers United|United]]'' (2010 - 2012)
:In the style of ''Henkei'', ''United'' would be Takara's primary equivalent for Japaneses releases of ''Generations'' figures for a while. Much like ''Henkei'', these would also go on to feature more show-accurate paintjobs.

*''[[Thrilling 30]]'' (2013-2014)
:For the 30th anniversary of the [[Transformers brand|''Transformers'' brand]], the ''Generations'' line was rebranded. This toyline included characters from all across the franchise, notably including ''Generation 2'', ''Beast Wars'' and ''Armada'' for the first time since ''Universe'', and new molds of ''Diaclone'', ''Beast Machines'', and ''Robots in Disguise'' characters for the first time. The designs of the figures shifted to incorporate more elements of IDW's designs for those characters, and every Deluxe Class figure was packaged with an issue of IDW's ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Dark Cybertron]]'' event. This line included [[Windblade (G1)|Windblade]], the first ''Transformers'' designed based on the results of a [[Fan polls|fan poll]], [[Jetfire (G1)/toys|Jetfire]], the first Leader Class CHUG figure, and [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]], the first Titan Class figure.

*''[[Transformers Legends (franchise)|Legends]]'' (2014 - 2018)
:From 2014 on, ''Legends'' became Takara's own umbrella term to designate its ''Generations''-based releases, also following in the same show-accurate tradition of ''Henkei'' and ''United''.[[File:TR_Trypticon_Robot.jpg|thumb|320px|right|"... Well, damn."]]

*''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]'' (2015 - 2016)
:The first of the ''[[Prime Wars Trilogy]]'', ''Combiner Wars'' was a subline entirely centred around [[combiner]]s, simplifying the Deluxe and Voyager figures to incorporate a ''[[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers (toyline)#1986 (Scramble City and Transformers 2010)|Scramble City]]'' style of combination. Significantly more figures were released for ''Combiner Wars'' than any other CHUG line until then, including [[Dead End (G1)|a significantly larger amount of repaints]]. Some new Legends Class and Leader Class molds were released, along with redecoes and retools of various ''Thrilling 30'' figures. This line's Titan Class figure was [[Devastator (G1)#Generations|Devastator]], and another fan poll resulted in the creation of [[Victorion]]. Box sets, containing a whole combiner each, were released for the first time.

*''[[Transformers Unite Warriors|Unite Warriors]]'' (2015 - 2017)
:Takara's equivalent for the Deluxe and Voyager combiner teams of ''Combiner Wars'', strangely enough being released as their own individual line. The Leader molds were simply sold as regular ''Legends'' figures.

*''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'' (2016 - 2017)
:The second subline in the ''Prime Wars Trilogy'', ''Titans Return'' focused around the titular [[Titan Master]] robots, most of them being directly based off the 1987 Generation 1 [[Headmaster (technology)#Generation 1|Headmaster]]s. Various [[Targetmaster (technology)|Targetmaster]] and [[Powermaster]] figures became Titan Masters too, along with some characters which had never been "-masters" in the first place. Two box sets were released for this line, generally including more obscure characters. The two Titan Class figures for this subline were [[Fortress Maximus (G1)/toys#Generations|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Trypticon (G1)#Titans Return|Trypticon]].

*''[[Power of the Primes (toyline)|Power of the Primes]]'' (2017 - 2018)
:''Power of the Primes'' is the third and final installment in the ''Prime Wars Trilogy'', spotlighting [[Prime (rank)|Prime]]s and using [[Prime Master]]s (loosely inspired by [[Powermaster]]s) as a unified play pattern. The combiner mechanic of ''Combiner Wars'' also returns. As an additional gimmick, Leader Class figures are formed by a Deluxe-sized robot representing the character before getting the Matrix, plus an armor that turns them in the proper Leader character. The Titan Class figure for the subline is [[Predaking (G1)#Power of the Primes|Predaking]].

*''[[War for Cybertron: Siege (toyline)|Siege]]'' (2019 - 20??)
:''Siege'' is the first installment in the ''[[War for Cybertron Trilogy]]'', with its defining characteristics being the presence of battle-damaged paintjobs across most figures. The series also features the return of [[Targetmaster (technology)|Targetmaster]]s and [[Micromaster]]s, under the names [[Battle Master]]s and Micro Masters. The Titan Class figure for the subline will be [[Omega Supreme (G1)#Generations|Omega Supreme]].

===Gallery===
<gallery>
File:ClassicsStarscream_toy.jpg|''Classics'' [[Starscream (G1)/toys|Starscream]], a figure which would get redecoed for many other CHUG toylines. Note the rubsign.
File:Sunstreakeruniverse2008toy.jpg|''Universe'' [[Sunstreaker (G1)/toys|Sunstreaker]], cleverly designed to function back-to-front as his brother [[Sideswipe (G1)/toys|Sideswipe]].
File:Henkei_Starscream_toy.jpg|''Henkei! Henkei!'' [[Starscream (G1)/toys|Starscream]]. Note the chrome.
File:Generations_Drift_toy.jpg‎|''Generations'' [[Drift (G1)|Drift]], the first CHUG figure based definitively on an IDW-original character.
File:TF2010_deluxe_SpecialOpsJazz.jpg‎|''Reveal the Shield'' [[Jazz (G1)/toys|Jazz]]. Note the rubsign.
File:Unitedtoy-AutobotJazz.jpg|''United'' [[Jazz (G1)/toys|Jazz]]. Note the metallic plastic.
File:Generationstoy-VoyagerSpringer.jpg|''Thrilling 30'' [[Springer (G1)/toys|Springer]], one of the first Voyager Class CHUG [[Triple Changer]]s released. Based on [[Nick Roche]]'s ''[[The Transformers: Last Stand of the Wreckers|Last Stand of the Wreckers]]'' design.
File:TF-Legends-LG-19-Springer.jpg|''Legends'' [[Springer (G1)/toys|Springer]], featuring a more cartoon-accurate colour scheme
File:Defensor Combiner Wars.jpg|''Combiner Wars'' [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]], made up of [[Groove (G1)|one Legends Class figure,]] [[First Aid (G1)|four]] [[Streetwise (G1)|Deluxe]] [[Rook (Generations)|Class]] [[Blades (G1)|figures]], and [[Hot Spot (G1)|one Voyager Class figure.]] '''EACH SOLD SEPARATELY.'''
File:Unite-Warriors-UW-03-Guardian.jpg|''Unite Warriors'' [[Defensor (G1)|Guardian]], released exclusively through [[TakaraTomy Mall]].
File:TitansReturntoy-Hardhead.jpg|''Titans Return'' [[Hardhead (G1)|Hardhead]] and [[Duros|Furos]].
File:PowerOfThePrimestoy-Jazz.jpg|''Power of the Primes'' [[Jazz (G1)/toys|Jazz]]. Note the combiner peg peeking out from underneath his chest.
</gallery>

==Toylines loosely considered as CHUG==
[[File:PCC-toy Huffer.jpg|thumb|200px|upright=2.2|CHUG or Bayverse? Guess it's up to [[you]] to decide!]]
*''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]]'' (2003 - 2005)
:Although debuting a good three years before ''Classics''', the 2003 ''Universe'' toyline could be seen as a very early version of what would become CHUG, featuring various attempts at replicating characters from previous eras in a regular retail line - these were, however, limited to redecos instead of actual original sculpts, hence why the line is often disregarded as not necessarily being a part of the abbreviation. Still, considering how some of the released toys do match the aesthetics of early ''Classics'' and 2008 ''Universe'' figures, it sounds fair to say they aren't completely negligible either.
[[File:Masterpiece Soundwave.jpg|200px|upright=2.2|thumb]]
*''[[The Transformers: Masterpiece|Masterpiece]]'' (2004 - )
:This toyline is aimed at older adult collectors, with most products made by Hasbro being released as store exclusives, and others made by TakaraTomy being very expensive and aimed at the Japanese market. However, these saw infrequent releases and got off to a rough start with inconsistent scale, but was rebooted to include more characters.

*''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' (2005 - 2017)
:Being the umbrella name for Botcon and Fun Publications exclusives, Timelines does encompass some sets and figures that fit in with the regular CHUG toylines (particularly as most of the molds used to come from those toylines). However, it also often goes for direct tie-ins with other continuities, such as ''Beast Wars'', ''[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (franchise)|Shattered Glass]]'' and ''Animated''.

*''[[Power Core Combiners]]'' (2010 - 2011)
:The ''Power Core Combiners'' hold a strange place in terms of continuity, with Hasbro themselves admitting they aren't particularly tied to any specific series. On one hand, the line follows the CHUG premise of reinventing classic characters (mostly combiners) with modern designs and packaging like that of the concurrently released ''Generations'' figures. On the other hand, most of the characters were exclusively featured in Movie tie-in media, like [[Smolder]] in ''[[Transformers: Cyber Missions]]'' and [[Bombshock (PCC)|Bombshock]] in ''[[Transformers Classified]]''. Complicating matters further, they were released as ''United'' figures in Japan, under the ''United EX'' label, making them CHUG derivatives in that region but not explicitly so in the rest of the world.

*''[[Transformers Cloud|Cloud]]'' (2014 - 2015)
:Much like PCC, ''Cloud'' is a somewhat confusing toyline to pin down. It was released as a separate series from ''Legends'' with its own story and continuity, but it also tries to reinvent the classic G1 characters... By mostly reusing the ''Generations'' sculpts of other previously reinvented classic characters, like by turning [[Doubledealer#Generations|Doubledealer]] into [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Cloud|Starscream]] and [[Springer (G1)#Voyager|Springer]] into [[Hot Rod (G1)/toys#Cloud|Hot Rodimus]]. Still, its aesthetic is certainly compatible with most of CHUG.

*''[[Transformers (2014 toyline)|Transformers]]'' (2014 - 2015)
:This small line, with the generic title ''Transformers'' (though it was named "Classic" and "Generation One" on Hasbro's website), included redecos from some of the "CHUG" toylines listed above, most of them being released alongside the [[Transformers: Age of Extinction (toyline)|Age of Extinction]] figures. It also included some redecos of ''Movieverse'' and ''Prime'' toys. However, it had no new molds and an odd release cycle, which made it unknown to a good amount of fans.

*''[[Transformers: Generations#Asian market exclusives ("GDO") 2|Cyber Series]]'' (2015-2018)
:Technically speaking, the ''Cyber Series'' can be understood as a ''Generations'' subline of sorts, however, the fact that it existed independently of the ''Prime Wars Trilogy'' and had an incredibly limited release mostly relegated to Asian and Latin American markets, coupled with the unusual scope of the series, radically sets it apart from what most collectors would define as "CHUG". Rather than featuring standard Deluxe / Voyager / Leader figures, the ''Cyber Series'' was instead based around large and chunky simplified toys mostly oriented towards younger kids, featuring designs strongly influenced by the original Generation 1 versions of the most prominent ''Transformers'' characters. Its compatibility with CHUG is often debated, as most toys do have relatively rudimentary engineering in comparison to the more intricate mainline figures, but the G1-based designs of characters like [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Cyber Series|Megatron]] and [[Shockwave (G1)/toys#Cyber Series|Shockwave]], coupled with the fact that they generally scale well enough with regular CHUG figures and might provide a solid basis for [[Customizing|customization]], has resulted in some of them being surprisingly desirable for collectors.

*''[[Transformers Authentics|Authentics]]'' (2017 -)
:Following in the footsteps of the two toylines above, Hasbro created a dedicated "[[evergreen]]" design series for for merchandise and budget markets, also based around the most popular characters that can be easily marketed without the necessity of any attached tie-in media. The series also had a couple of unique molds released under the ''Authentics'' subline, all of which are even simpler and more rudimentary than those of ''Cyber Series'' - though, regardless, they still fit into the niche of customizers and collectors of smaller ''[[Transformers: Cyberverse (toyline)|Cyberverse]]''-scaled CHUG figures. The [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Power of the Primes|''Power of the Primes'' version of Starscream]] is also directly based on his evergreen design.

===Gallery===
<gallery>
File:TFU03-toy Skywarp.jpg|''Universe'' [[Skywarp (G1)|Skywarp]]
File:TL Sunstorm-toy.jpg|''Timelines'' [[Sunstorm (G1)|Sunstorm]], redecoed from the aforementioned ''Classics'' Starscream.
File:TF-Timelines-Descent-into-Evil-Ironhide.jpg|''Timelines'' [[Ironhide (G1)/toys|Ironhide]], redecoed from a [[Unicron Trilogy]] toy.
File:TL-toy Cheetor-BC06.jpg|''Timelines'' [[Cheetor (BW)/toys|Cheetor]]. This is a ''Beast Era'' character represented as CHUG.
File:BotCon2014-Scorponok.jpg|''Timelines'' Scorponok, retooled to accommodate a [[Headmaster]] gimmick.
File:PCC-toy Combaticons.jpg|''Power Core Combiners'' [[Bombshock (PCC)|Bombshock]] with [[Combaticon (PCC)|Combaticons]]
File:Takaratomy-cloud-Starscream.jpg|''Cloud'' [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]
File:Cyber-Battalion-Shockwave.jpg|''Cyber Series'' [[Shockwave (G1)/toys#Cyber Series|Shockwave]]. Despite its rudimentary articulation and engineering, it was cherished as the closest to a CHUG Shockwave [[Shockwave (G1)/toys#War for Cybertron: Siege|for a short while]].
File:TF2014toy-LegionStrafe.jpg|''Transformers'' [[Swoop (G1)|"Strafe"]]
File:Authentics 5inch Optimus.jpg|''Authentics'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]
</gallery>

[[Category:Fan terminology]]
[[Category:Toys]]

Mega-Dinobot

2018-12-08T22:30:22Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

{{factions|autobot}}
{{disambig2|the combined robot from Energon|other uses of "Dinobot"|Dinobot (disambiguation)}}
:''Mega-Dinobot is an [[Autobot]] [[combiner]] (more accurately a Powerlinx) from the [[Transformers: Energon (franchise)|Energon]] portion of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] [[continuity family]].''

[[Image:Energon-toy_MegaDinobot.JPG|right|thumb|300px|"There never was a Dinobot combiner."]]
'''Mega-Dinobot''' is the combined form of the heavy-assault Autobots [[Grimlock (Energon)|Grimlock]] and [[Swoop (Energon)|Swoop]]. Though the two greatly enjoy splitting up to confuse and crush the [[Decepticon|Decepticons]], Mega-Dinobot mode is perfect for taking out anyone who managed to survive the initial onslaught.

==Toys==
===Energon===
*'''Grimlock & Swoop''' (Mega, 2005)

: ''[[Transformers: Energon (toyline)|Energon]]'' Mega-Dinobot combines the individuals Grimlock and Swoop into a single robot mode. Both components came in a single Mega-class multi-pack.

:This set suffers from a minor [[design flaw]]; the clip that connects Grimlock to Swoop is shaped incorrectly for holding up Grimlock, which causes the torso to slump back when in combined mode. Furthermore, the combined mode head is restricted from turning by a single small block molded on to an otherwise fully functional neck swivel; slicing it out will restore Mega-Dinobot's ability to look around.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Autobot/Mega-Dinobot/mega-dinobot.htm More information on Mega-Dinobot at TFU.info]''

==Notes==
* The Grimlock/Swoop set was originally intended to be released in the 2003 ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]]'' line, as the [[Dinobot (G1)|original Generation 1 incarnations]]. However, a variety of factors shuffled the set into ''Energon'' and new-character-dom on this wiki.
* This set was not "mech-designed" or engineered by [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] employees, being created from start to finish by Hasbro, a rarity for normal-series ''Transformers'' toys.
* Mega-Dinobot's robot mode face has molded-in teeth similar to ''[[Transformers: The War Within|War Within]]'' Grimlock's.
* This set mercifully bears no relation to the ''other'' Dinobot-combiner storyline, "[[The Beast Within]]".

[[Category:Combined forms]]
[[Category:Energon Autobots]]
[[Category:Toy-only characters]]

Solaris particle collider

2018-11-22T01:36:50Z

Sonatronus, they new Galvatron:

[[File:MinusOne Solaris particle collider.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Presumably the hole in the side isn't normal.]]
The '''Solaris particle collider''' is an [[United States of America|American]] scientific installation in [[Antarctica]]. It can possibly generate enough power to create a [[black hole]].

==Fiction==
===''Prime'' cartoon===
During their pursuit of technology to repair the [[Omega Lock]], [[Shockwave (WFC)|Shockwave]] and a team of [[Vehicon (Prime)|Vehicons]] invaded the base. News soon reached the [[Autobot]]s, and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)|Optimus Prime]] and his team arrived to investigate. While Prime himself was kept busy outside battling [[Predaking (Prime)|Predaking]], [[Ultra Magnus (WFC)|Ultra Magnus]] and the other Autobots ventured inside, where they were attacked by Vehicon guards. {{storylink|Minus One}} Though the Autobots managed to catch up with Shockwave and defeat him, Predaking rescued the [[Decepticon]] and took off with the technology they'd been after. {{storylink|Persuasion}}
It seems to be a cartoon version of the God particle/Hardon Particle Collider.

[[Category:Antarctica]]
[[Category:Power plants]]
[[Category:Prime locations]]