https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=TFfan1MediaWiki - User contributions [en]2026-05-21T19:38:13ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.45.3https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:Unknown_Generation_1_animation_studios&diff=1400443Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios2020-03-29T18:12:26Z<p>TFfan1: /* Ashi Productions */</p>
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<div>I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
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The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
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== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==<br />
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Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)<br />
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)<br />
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)<br />
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)<br />
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".<br />
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::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".<br />
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::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.<br />
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::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
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== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==<br />
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Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
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==Identification criteria?==<br />
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I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)<br />
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==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==<br />
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}<br />
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== I might have cracked it ==<br />
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If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":<br />
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[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]<br />
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I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
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:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])<br />
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").<br />
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.<br />
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.<br />
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!<br />
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".<br />
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There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.<br />
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It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.<br />
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Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.<br />
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Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?<br />
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::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).<br />
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::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.<br />
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."<br />
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.<br />
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).<br />
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!<br />
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.<br />
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::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).<br />
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::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.<br />
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::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").<br />
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::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".<br />
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::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.<br />
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::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".<br />
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::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.<br />
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)<br />
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.<br />
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense... <br />
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
===A sudden twist!===<br />
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."<br />
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?<br />
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).<br />
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".<br />
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.<br />
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.<br />
<br />
(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
==That's some good work, Lou==<br />
<br />
I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Carnage in C-Minor ==<br />
<br />
Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==<br />
<br />
Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.<br />
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Ashi Productions ==<br />
<br />
The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions]]? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:Unknown_Generation_1_animation_studios&diff=1400442Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios2020-03-29T18:12:08Z<p>TFfan1: </p>
<hr />
<div>I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==<br />
<br />
Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)<br />
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)<br />
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)<br />
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)<br />
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".<br />
<br />
::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".<br />
<br />
::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.<br />
<br />
::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==<br />
<br />
Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Identification criteria?==<br />
<br />
I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==<br />
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}<br />
<br />
== I might have cracked it ==<br />
<br />
If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":<br />
<br />
[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]<br />
<br />
I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])<br />
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").<br />
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.<br />
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.<br />
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!<br />
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".<br />
<br />
There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.<br />
<br />
It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.<br />
<br />
Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.<br />
<br />
Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?<br />
<br />
::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).<br />
<br />
::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.<br />
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."<br />
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.<br />
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).<br />
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!<br />
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.<br />
<br />
::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).<br />
<br />
::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.<br />
<br />
::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").<br />
<br />
::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".<br />
<br />
::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.<br />
<br />
::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".<br />
<br />
::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.<br />
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)<br />
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.<br />
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense... <br />
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
===A sudden twist!===<br />
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."<br />
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?<br />
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).<br />
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".<br />
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.<br />
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.<br />
<br />
(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
==That's some good work, Lou==<br />
<br />
I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Carnage in C-Minor ==<br />
<br />
Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==<br />
<br />
Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.<br />
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Ashi Productions ==<br />
<br />
The page for "[[Call of the Primitives]]" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions}}? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]], March 29 2020, 11:09 PST</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:Unknown_Generation_1_animation_studios&diff=1400440Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios2020-03-29T18:09:09Z<p>TFfan1: /* Ashi Productions */</p>
<hr />
<div>I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==<br />
<br />
Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)<br />
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)<br />
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)<br />
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)<br />
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".<br />
<br />
::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".<br />
<br />
::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.<br />
<br />
::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==<br />
<br />
Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Identification criteria?==<br />
<br />
I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==<br />
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}<br />
<br />
== I might have cracked it ==<br />
<br />
If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":<br />
<br />
[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]<br />
<br />
I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])<br />
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").<br />
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.<br />
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.<br />
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!<br />
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".<br />
<br />
There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.<br />
<br />
It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.<br />
<br />
Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.<br />
<br />
Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?<br />
<br />
::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).<br />
<br />
::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.<br />
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."<br />
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.<br />
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).<br />
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!<br />
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.<br />
<br />
::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).<br />
<br />
::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.<br />
<br />
::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").<br />
<br />
::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".<br />
<br />
::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.<br />
<br />
::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".<br />
<br />
::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.<br />
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)<br />
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.<br />
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense... <br />
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
===A sudden twist!===<br />
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."<br />
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?<br />
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).<br />
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".<br />
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.<br />
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.<br />
<br />
(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
==That's some good work, Lou==<br />
<br />
I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Carnage in C-Minor ==<br />
<br />
Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==<br />
<br />
Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.<br />
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Ashi Productions ==<br />
<br />
The page for Call of the Primitives says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - TFfan1, March 29 2020, 11:09 PST</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:Unknown_Generation_1_animation_studios&diff=1400439Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios2020-03-29T18:08:28Z<p>TFfan1: /* Ashi Productions */ new section</p>
<hr />
<div>I did wonder about [http://www.philippinebusiness.com.ph/archives/magazine/vol9-2002/9-3/industry_p2.htm this news item] which [[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] linked to on the [[Talk:Toei Animation|Talk:Toei]] page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --[[User:Abates|abates]] 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
::Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)<br />
<br />
The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Maybe it was Burbank Animation? ==<br />
<br />
Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--[[Special:Contributions/71.142.249.86|71.142.249.86]] 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::[http://www.burbankanimation.com/ Burbank's official website] doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. [http://asianjournal.wordpress.com/2007/11/14/filipinos-on-top-of-hollywood-animation/ This article] says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::: I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::::Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even ''harder'' to figure out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:::::Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::::::Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
::If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found [http://www.cristofani.com/resume.html a couple] [http://www.linkedin.com/in/jocelynsy so far], though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:::Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)<br />
:I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found [http://dirp3.pids.gov.ph/ris/taps/tapspp0102.pdf this PDF document] which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)<br />
Ok, '''definitely not Burbank'''. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". [[User:Danja|Danja]] 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)<br />
:Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. [[User:Danja|Danja]] 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)<br />
::Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --[[User:Flicky1991|flicky]][[User talk:Flicky1991|1991]] 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)<br />
:::I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in ''November'' 1986 - ''well'' after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".<br />
<br />
::::Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".<br />
<br />
::::Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.<br />
<br />
::::Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== [[Hasbro Q&A]] ==<br />
<br />
Anyone tried the [[Hasbro Q&A]] yet? Maybe that ''might'' help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? [[User:Item42|Item42]] 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
:Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much ''anything'' whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. [[User:Item42|Item42]] 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Identification criteria?==<br />
<br />
I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)<br />
<br />
==Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?==<br />
We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R ([[wikipedia:ja:アニメアール|アニメアール]]) as working on the show and also Korean studio [[Dai Won Animation Co.|Daewon Animation]] ([[wikipedia:ja:テウォンメディア|大元動画]]); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.{{unsigned|Evan1975}}<br />
<br />
== I might have cracked it ==<br />
<br />
If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "[[Auto Berserk]]" and "[[Kremzeek!]]", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "[[Make Tracks]]" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "[[Triple Takeover]]" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":<br />
<br />
[[File:Cheekbonescomparison.jpg|300px]]<br />
<br />
I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "[[A Prime Problem]]", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "[[Auto Berserk]]", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
:I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]])<br />
::::::OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").<br />
:::::::Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" and "[[Starscream's Brigade]]"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.<br />
:::::::That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.<br />
:::::::From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
::::::::I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!<br />
::::::::Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::::For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::::::::I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)<br />
I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".<br />
<br />
There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.<br />
<br />
It's from 2012, but Zob [https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.toys.transformers/ro0LGSJfMD4/5M6uQVXqtqIJ| posted a list] on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.<br />
<br />
Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.<br />
<br />
Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can ''sort'' of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?<br />
<br />
::Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).<br />
<br />
::And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.<br />
:::Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."<br />
:::From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.<br />
:::So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear ''correctly'' in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).<br />
:::That leaves our only ''possible'' contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely ''way'' too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in ''every'' one of them animated by AKOM, which ''screams'' "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!<br />
:::Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.<br />
<br />
::::Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).<br />
<br />
::::One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.<br />
<br />
::::Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").<br />
<br />
::::Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".<br />
<br />
::::Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.<br />
<br />
::::And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".<br />
<br />
::::From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.<br />
<br />
::::Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They ''always'' use the early ''colors'', though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.<br />
:::::(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I ''think'' he might spend ''all'' of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)<br />
:::::The Perceptor thing might not be ''that'' unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I ''feeeeel'' like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.<br />
:::::It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio'''s'''", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an ''aaaaawful'' lot of sense... <br />
:::::I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM ''also'' used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)<br />
===A sudden twist!===<br />
But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that ''Hoist'' also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... '''aaaand'''... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking [[Skids (G1)|Skids]]'s appearance in [[Triple Takeover]] for differences with his other appearance in [[Quest for Survival]]? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."<br />
:::Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that ''does'' mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::::Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?<br />
::::There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).<br />
::::If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".<br />
::::With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - [[User:Jon T|Jon T]] ([[User talk:Jon T|talk]]) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
:::::Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.<br />
:::::Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does ''that'' in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.<br />
<br />
(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
==That's some good work, Lou==<br />
<br />
I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
::Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Carnage in C-Minor ==<br />
<br />
Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's ''so'' bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the ''finished'' model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)<br />
<br />
==Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com==<br />
<br />
Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.<br />
:Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. [[User:Wiffletron|Wiffletron]] ([[User talk:Wiffletron|talk]]) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)<br />
<br />
== Ashi Productions ==<br />
<br />
The page for Call of the Primitives says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio?</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Shockwave_(G1)/toys&diff=686257Shockwave (G1)/toys2012-02-12T18:46:51Z<p>TFfan1: /* Generations */</p>
<hr />
<div>{{suite}}<br />
<br />
'''[[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]]''' has many toys, so logic dictates that they should receive a page. Logic also dictates that they should be awesome.<br />
<br />
==Toys==<br />
===Generation 1===<br />
[[Image:G1Shockwave toy.jpg|thumb|250px|You can try to play Duck Hunt with him all day long, but it just doesn't work.]]<br />
*'''Shockwave''' (Decepticon, 1985)<br />
**''Japanese ID number'': '''49'''<br />
**''Accessories'': "Magnetic impulse defuser" barrel<br />
: Sold boxed, Shockwave was one of the very first 1985 toys to see release, if not ''the'' first. Shockwave transforms into a large Cybertronian handgun. He has light and sound electronics activated by his gun-mode trigger and powered by a 9-volt battery. The sound effects can be switched between two (fairly generic) blaster-sound frequencies with a small toggle on his battery pack. As a robot, he has a large, if not the most, amount of articulation for the era. <br />
<br />
: Shockwave was initially sold without a rub sign; one was later added to the side of his torso.<br />
<br />
:The rubber hose covering the wires connecting his torso and arm's electronics is particularly prone to dry-rotting. Be careful!<br />
<br />
::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1985/Decepticon/Shockwave/shockwave.htm More information on Shockwave at TFU.info]''<br />
<br />
<br />
[[Image:ActionMaster Shockwave.jpg|thumb|Small and deadly.]]<br />
<br />
* '''Shockwave with Fistfight''' (Action Master, 1990)<br />
** ''Accessories'': Double-barreled "Turbo Rifle"<br />
<br />
: As an [[Action Master]], Shockwave is a non-transforming action figure who combines elements of his cartoon model and original toy, with a few more details. He is compatible with any other Action Master weapon or vehicle. Part of the third wave of individually-carded Action Master figures, He came with his small robot [[Action Master partner|partner]] [[Fistfight (G1)|Fistfight]], who combines with Shockwave's handgun to form a "Lightning Gun" cannon.<br />
<br />
: Reportedly, early "test market" releases came with a rubber hose that connects from his gun-arm to his back, like the original toy. There are holes in the toy's gun-arm and backpack; the black hoses found in many old ''[[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]]'' toys can fit in the holes.<br />
<br />
::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1990/Decepticon/Shockwave/shockwave.htm More information on Shockwave at TFU.info]''<br />
<br />
<br clear="all"><br />
<br />
===Alternators===<br />
[[Image:AlternatorsShockblast toy.jpg|thumb|250px|Guns akimbo.]]<br />
*'''Shockblast''' (Alternator, 2004)<br />
**''Alternator ID number:'' '''12'''<br />
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''BT-13'''<br />
**''Accessories'': Muffler-blaster<br />
<br />
: A [[Retool|retooling]] of the "[[Jazz (G1)/toys|Meister]]" Alternator, "Shockblast" ([[trademark]] problems...) transforms into a 1:24-scale fully-licensed Mazdaspeed-modified RX-8 sports car. He features working car doors, hood, and trunk. His muffler unfolds to become a hand-held blaster; the mounting peg for car-mode actually pegs into the holes on his forearms by the elbow joints quite snugly, letting you mount the blaster there if you wish. While the box has the name "Shockblast", the car's actual license plate is "SHKWAV".<br />
<br />
: Aside from the new head, color change and the laser cannon replacing his left hand, other differences between Shockblast and Meister are that Shockblast has new front and rear fenders, doors, side skirts and a spoiler.<br />
<br />
: The original Meister mold was also used to make the [[Autorooper]] and [[Zoom-Zoom]].<br />
<br />
::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Decepticon/AltShockblast/shockblast.htm More information on Shockblast at TFU.info]''<br />
<br />
<br clear="all"><br />
<br />
===Titanium Series===<br />
[[Image:Shockwavetitanium.jpg|thumb|150px|Cancelling me is illogical.]]<br />
*'''Shockwave'''<br />
<br />
: A 6" transforming Shockwave toy was designed and displayed at [[BotCon]] 2007, but [[Titanium Series]] was canceled before its tooling could be completed.<br />
{{Canceledtoy}}{{-}}<br />
<br />
===Attacktix===<br />
* '''Shockwave''' (unreleased)<br />
<br />
: Shockwave was likely to have been one of several ''Transformers [[Attacktix]]'' Booster pieces, using a wide, powerful, spring-loaded "blaster" missile launcher attack. He was to be a 40-point Leader-class piece. Though displayed as part of the ''Attacktix'' display at the [[Star Wars]] "Celebration IV" convention, Shockwave was ultimately never released as the ''Attacktix'' toyline was put on ice.<br />
<br />
{{Canceledattacktix}}<br />
<br clear="all"><br />
<br />
===Generations===<br />
[[Image:Generationstoy-Shockwave.jpg|right|thumb|300px| This repurposing is very logical indeed. ]]<br />
*'''Cybertronian Shockwave''' (Deluxe, 2012)<br />
: Part of the first wave of [[2012]] ''[[Generations (toyline)|Generations]]'' Deluxe Class toys, [[Shockwave (WFC)|Shockwave]] is based on his ''[[War for Cybertron]]'' design and transforms from a robot to a spaceship and back. The front center fuselage of the spaceship may become a handheld weapon. <br />
: This toy was repurposed as ''Generation 1'' Shockwave in [[IDW Publishing]]'s ''[[The Transformers: Robots in Disguise|Robots in Disguise]]'' comics.<br />
{{comingsoontoy}}<br />
{{-}}<br />
<br />
==Merchandise==<br />
===Transformers Milk Caramel===<br />
[[Image:Caramel_shockwave.jpg|right|thumb]]<br />
*'''Laserwave''' (1985)<br />
:A soft rubber figurine—known in Japan as a ''keshigomu''— of Shockwave was released as part of the second wave of [[Kabaya]]'s ''[[Transformers Milk Caramel]]'' [[candy toy]] range. He came packaged with chocolate-covered caramel candies, and was available in red, blue and yellow.<br />
{{-}}<br />
<br />
===Decoy===<br />
{{anchor|TakaraDecoy}} [[Image:Decoy_shockwave.jpg|right|thumb]]<br />
*'''Destron Hero Collection 22''' (multi-pack, 1986)<br />
:Shockwave was among the many characters rendered by [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] as part of their series of 1.5" ''keshigomu'' figurines. Like all the Decepticons in the series, Shockwave was molded in soft purple rubber, and featured a number sculpted into his back that was the sum total of his [[Tech Spec]]s, for use in the various games that could be played with the figurines. Shockwave was available as part of a 22-piece box set of Autobot figures, and later, in a peach coloration randomly packed as part of various other box sets.<br />
<br />
{{anchor|HasbroDecoy}}<br />
*'''Shockwave''' (Decoy, 1987)<br />
**''Decoy number'': '''51'''<br />
<br />
:The figurine was later brought over to [[Hasbro]] markets as part of the [[Decoy]] promotion, largely identical to the Japanese release except for the fact that the number on his back was replaced with a simple "checklist" number (51, in Shockwave's case). Like all Decepticon Decoys, Shockwave was a randomly-chosen pack-in available with the carded [[Throttlebot]]s, [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbots]], [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] and [[Technobot (G1)|Technobots]] and was, very early on in the promotion, available in an alternate red coloration that was only packed in with the Throttlebots. Unsurprisingly, this red figurine is much rarer. <br />
::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1986/Decepticon/Decoys/Shockwave/shockwave.htm More information on Decoy Shockwave at TFU.info]''<br />
{{-}}<br />
===Bust===<br />
[[Image:Shockwave bust.jpg|thumb|right|150px|Shockwave reminisces back to when he had two hands.]]<br />
* '''Shockwave''' (Bust, 2003)<br />
<br />
: In 2003, [[Hard Hero]] released a six-inches tall polystone bust of Shockwave, based upon his Generation 1 cartoon appearance. It was limited to 2500 pieces worldwide, with an additional 100 specially signed by the sculptor.<br />
<br />
{{-}}<br />
[[Image:HardHero_MetallicShockwave.jpg|thumb|right|150px|]]<br />
* '''Shockwave Metallic Exclusive''' (Bust, 2003)<br />
<br />
: Hard Hero's Shockwave was also released in shiny "metallic" coloration. This version was in even shorter supply, limited to only 500 copies.<br />
<br />
{{-}}<br />
<br />
===Mini Bust===<br />
[[Image:Shockwave statue.jpg|thumb|"Yeah, I had to sell the trigger and most of the handle to feed my family."]]<br />
* '''Shockwave''' (Diamond Select, 2008)<br />
:Released by Diamond Select Toys in 2008, Shockwave was sculpted by [[Mark Wong]] of [[Art Asylum]] and limited to 1,000 pieces. Both his fist and "gun hand" are translucent to better match his toy incarnation.<br />
<br />
{{-}}<br />
===Mini Statue===<br />
[[Image:Shockwaveministatue.jpg|thumb|150px|Meet me in the bank... it's going down...]]<br />
* '''Shockwave''' (Mini statue, 2005)<br />
: Diamond Comics Distributors also released a small, six-inch polystone statue of Shockwave made by [[Palisades Toys]], based upon [[Pat Lee]]'s rendition of the character in [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]]'s Transformers comic books.<br />
<br />
{{-}}<br />
<br />
===Robot Heroes===<br />
[[Image:G1 RobotHeroes ShockwaveVsGrimlock.jpg|200px|thumb|right|He's logical ''and'' cute.]]<br />
* '''Grimlock & Shockwave''' (Robot Heroes, 2007)<br />
<br />
: The most adorablest Shockwave ever, ''[[Robot Heroes (toyline)|Robot Heroes]]'' Shockwave is a stumpy PVC figurine that combines toy and animation model details into a single package. He has limited articulation (neck and shoulder swivels only), but he's so cute it doesn't matter. He was available in a two-pack with a similarly lovable version of [[Grimlock (G1)/toys|Grimlock]].<br />
<br />
{{-}}<br />
===Mighty Muggs===<br />
[[Image:MightyMuggs_Shockwave.jpg|right|thumb|150px|Cute ''and'' frightening plus angry about my big head]]<br />
*'''Shockwave''' (Mighty Mugg, 2009)<br />
<br />
: Part of the third wave of [[Mighty Muggs]], Shockwave is a [[super deformed]], non-transformable PVC figure with articulated arms and head. As all Mighty Muggs are made from the same mold, he has a really weird-looking round head. His left arm, however, is [[retool]]ed to include his trademark gun hand.<br />
<br />
: Shockwave was briefly believed to be canceled, but Hasbro revealed at San Diego Comic-Con 2009 that his wave would be released. Along with the rest of his wave, Shockwave was eventually released as an exclusive at Diamond Distributors and [[Toys"R"Us]] stores.<br />
<br />
{{-}}<br />
<br />
==Notes==<br />
[[Image:ToyCoAstroMagnum.jpg|230px|thumb|"Shackwave"? '''"Shackwave"?!''' RADIOWAVE, [[fandom|you]] idiots!]]<br />
* Although Shockwave was depicted in the very first episode of the original cartoon series, he did not receive a toy release until early in 1985. Unlike the bulk of early Transformers that drew their molds from [[TakaraTomy|Takara]]'s ''[[Diaclone]]'' and ''[[Micro Change|Microchange]]'' toys, Shockwave's original form was first produced by ToyCo as the "[http://www.robot-japan.com/Gallery/Takara/Transformers/G1/AstroMagnum/Toybox-Astro-Magnum.asp 4 Changeable Astro Magnum]". As such, similar non-Transformer toys using the same mold were released in 1985, including a [[RadioShack]] exclusive called "Galactic Man". A minor but amusing difference between the Radio Shack version, humorously called "Shackwave" by fans, and the [[Hasbro]] version, is that Shockwave's inconveniently placed trigger was remolded and appears less... inconvenient.<br />
** A 1985 Hasbro briefing binder gives Shockwave's toy the name "Spark Man," which probably was a name attached to the toy, considering its similarity to Radio Shack's "Galactic Man," rather than being an early name for the Hasbro character. <ref>http://boltax.blogspot.com/2010/12/ron-friedman-auction-hasbro-briefing_15.html</ref> He still hadn't settled into his finalized name at the time the script for "[[More than Meets the Eye (episode)|More than Meets the Eye]]" was written; in it, he is referred to as '''Flash Beam'''. <ref>http://boltax.blogspot.com/2011/02/ron-friedman-auctions-scripts-part-3-of.html</ref><br />
* The Astro Magnum mold also appears to have been licensed to a small company called Village Toys in the 1980s, where it showed up in their [http://counter-x.net/footnotes/convert-a-bots/index.html Convert-A-Bots] line under the name "N-4-SR" (..."Enforcer", get it?). This release was [http://plasticcrack.net/archives/2009/04/convert-a-bot_shockwave_that_is_not_shockwave dark grey, with purple highlights].<br />
[[Image:Starbrigade.jpg|125px|thumb|Product and colors (and franchise) may vary.]]<br />
* Shockwave bears the rather strange distinction of receiving a number of particularly high quality [[Knockoff|knockoffs]], all of which known retain the electronics and some even having odd [[wikipedia:Flash Gordon|Flash Gordonesque]] [[retool]]s.<br />
* One of the earliest pictured versions of Action Master Shockwave features some awkward proportions and Fistfight with reversed colors. Another oddity of this version is that Shockwave's right hand is sculpted in an open position.<br />
* A silhouette of Action Master Shockwave's card art appears on the back of the [[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]] Star Brigade packaging... as [[Hawk (G.I. Joe)|Hawk]]!<br />
<br />
[[Category:Action Masters]]<br />
[[Category:Alternators Decepticons]]<br />
[[Category:Attacktix]]<br />
[[Category:Decoys]]<br />
[[Category:Generation 1 Decepticons]]<br />
[[Category:Robot Heroes]]<br />
[[Category:Toys "R" Us exclusives]]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:TransFormersfan1&diff=685110User talk:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T03:22:34Z<p>TFfan1: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{preview bastard}}<br />
<br />
Please focus your energies on editing articles, not your user page. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:07, 7 February 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
Sorry, I'm fairly new and I've seen other pages with personal canon, I just wanted to share my own thoughts. Won't happen again. [[User: TFfan1|-TFfan1]] [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]] 22:22, 7 February 2012 (EST)</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User_talk:TransFormersfan1&diff=685108User talk:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T03:16:18Z<p>TFfan1: </p>
<hr />
<div>{{preview bastard}}<br />
<br />
Please focus your energies on editing articles, not your user page. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 22:07, 7 February 2012 (EST)<br />
<br />
Sorry, I'm fairly new and I've seen other pages with personal canon, I just wanted to share my own thoughts. [[User: TFfan1|-TFfan1]] 7:15, 7 February 2012 (PST)</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685107User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T03:13:00Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
*Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain module|brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode, also creating a military race. They create a false religion in [[Covenant of Primus| Primal Pentateuch]] about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The Primus geode, having already developed a god complex, went on to believe all this, and Unicron shared a mental link with Primus, also coming to believe the lies. The [[Covenant]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
*The [[Covenant]] are [[The Thirteen]], who led the Rebellion after abandoning their original forms for designs based off the zodiac of the Quintesson's sworn ememies the [[Vestial Imperium]]. Believing the Primus/Unicron mythos, they forgot their true identities and left for [[Protos]] after reading the epilouge of the Pentateuch which speaks of [[J'nwan]] and [[Shokaract]]. Revised versions of the Pentateuch( written by Quintesson sleeper agents post-Rebellion) had no mention of the Thirteen, instead claiming Primon and his kin were the First Ones. Libras and Taurotron were the replacements for [[Alpha Trion (G1)| Alpha Trion ]](who chose to stay on Cybertron) and [[ Liege Maximo| Maximo]](who went insane and recieved a god complex from attempting to interface with the Matrix). [[The Fallen]] wasn't replaced after he too interfaced with the Matrix while it was connected to Unicron, causing him to betray his brothers and sister.<br />
<br />
* Solution to Primon coming before Prima on the cartoon and Marvel timeline. [[Prima]], who became [[Leonicus]], held the Matrix briefly after its costodian, Primon(who came after Prima, who Primus wanted to have the Matrix), so Prima only briefly had it after Primon, despited being destined. Once the Covenant left, Primon held it for a while before passing it on.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685101User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T03:05:29Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
*Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain module|brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode, also creating a military race. They create a false religion in [[Covenant of Primus| Primal Pentateuch]] about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The Primus geode, having already developed a god complex, went on to believe all this, and Unicron shared a mental link with Primus, also coming to believe the lies. The [[Covenant]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
*The [[Covenant]] are [[The Thirteen]], who led the Rebellion after abandoning their original forms for designs based off the zodiac of the Quintesson's sworn ememies the [[Vestial Imperium]]. Believing the Primus/Unicron mythos, they forgot their true identities and left for [[Protos]] after reading the epilouge of the Pentateuch which speaks of [[J'nwan]] and [[Shokaract]]. Libras and Taurotron were the replacements for [[Alpha Trion (G1)| Alpha Trion ]](who chose to stay on Cybertron) and [[ Liege Maximo| Maximo]](who went insane and recieved a god complex from attempting to interface with the Matrix). [[The Fallen]] wasn't replaced after he too interfaced with the Matrix while it was connected to Unicron, causing him to betray his brothers and sister. [[Prima]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685100User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T03:04:57Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
*Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain module|brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode, also creating a military race. They create a false religion in [[Covenant of Primus| Primal Pentateuch]] about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The Primus geode, having already developed a god complex, went on to believe all this, and Unicron shared a mental link with Primus, also coming to believe the lies. The [[Covenant]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
*The [[Covenant]] are [[The Thirteen]], who led the Rebellion after abandoning their original forms for designs based off the zodiac of the Quintesson's sworn ememies the [[Vestial Imperium]]. Believing the Primus/Unicron mythos, they forgot their true identities and left for [[Protos]] after reading the epilouge of the Pentateuch which speaks of [[J'nwan]] and [[Shokaract]]. Libras and Taurotron were the replacements for [[Alpha Trion| Alpha Trion (G1)]](who chose to stay on Cybertron) and [[ Liege Maximo| Maximo]](who went insane and recieved a god complex from attempting to interface with the Matrix). [[The Fallen]] wasn't replaced after he too interfaced with the Matrix while it was connected to Unicron, causing him to betray his brothers and sister. [[Prima]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685099User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T03:04:41Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
*Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain module|brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode, also creating a military race. They create a false religion in [[Covenant of Primus| Primal Pentateuch]] about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The Primus geode, having already developed a god complex, went on to believe all this, and Unicron shared a mental link with Primus, also coming to believe the lies. The [[Covenant]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
*The [[Covenant]] are [[The Thirteen]], who led the Rebellion after abandoning their original forms for designs based off the zodiac of the Quintesson's sworn ememies the [[Vestial Imperium]]. Believing the Primus/Unicron mythos, they forgot their true identities and left for [[Protos]] after reading the epilouge of the Pentateuch which speaks of [[J'nwan]] and [[Shokaract]]. Libras and Taurotron were the replacements for [[Alpha Trion| Alpha Trion (G1)]](who chose to stay on Cybertron) and [[Maximo|Liege Maximo]](who went insane and recieved a god complex from attempting to interface with the Matrix). [[The Fallen]] wasn't replaced after he too interfaced with the Matrix while it was connected to Unicron, causing him to betray his brothers and sister. [[Prima]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685098User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T03:04:16Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
*Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain module|brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode, also creating a military race. They create a false religion in [[Covenan of Primus| Primal Pentateuch]] about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The Primus geode, having already developed a god complex, went on to believe all this, and Unicron shared a mental link with Primus, also coming to believe the lies. The [[Covenant]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
*The [[Covenant]] are [[The Thirteen]], who led the Rebellion after abandoning their original forms for designs based off the zodiac of the Quintesson's sworn ememies the [[Vestial Imperium]]. Believing the Primus/Unicron mythos, they forgot their true identities and left for [[Protos]] after reading the epilouge of the Pentateuch which speaks of [[J'nwan]] and [[Shokaract]]. Libras and Taurotron were the replacements for [[Alpha Trion| Alpha Trion (G1)]](who chose to stay on Cybertron) and [[Maximo|Leige Maximo]](who went insane and recieved a god complex from attempting to interface with the Matrix). [[The Fallen]] wasn't replaced after he too interfaced with the Matrix while it was connected to Unicron, causing him to betray his brothers and sister. [[Prima]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685090User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:54:52Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
*Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain module|brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode, also creating a military race. They create a false religion in [[Covenan of Primus| Primal Pentateuch]] about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The Primus geode, having already developed a god complex, went on to believe all this, and Unicron shared a mental link with Primus, also coming to believe the lies. The [[Covenant]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
*The [[Covenant]] are [[The Thirteen]], who led the Rebellion after abandoning their original forms for designs based off the zodiac of the Quintesson's sworn ememies the [[Vestial Imperium]]. Believing the Primus/Unicron mythos, they forgot their true identities and left for [[Protos]] after reading the epilouge of the Pentateuch which speaks of [[J'nwan]] and [[Shokaract]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685086User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:51:35Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
*Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain module|brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode, also creating a military race. They create a false religion about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The Primus geode, having already developed a god complex, went on to believe all this, and Unicron shared a mental link with Primus, also coming to believe the lies. The [[Covenant]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
*The [[Covenant]] are [[The Thirteen]], who lead the Rebellion after abandoning their original forms for designs based off the zodiac of the Quintesson's sworn ememies the [[Vestial Imperium]].<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685084User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:45:33Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
*Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain module|brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode. They create a false religion about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The [[Covenant]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
*The [[Covenant]] are [[The Thirteen]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685083User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:43:32Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain module|brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode. They create a false religion about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The [[Covenant]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685081User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:43:03Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief(sorta) synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on two sentient [[Primus|P.R.I.M.U.S.]] software geode crystals, that contain the Lifecode, which is capable of bringing machines to life, which they place in two planets for safekeeping. The first geode transforms its lush world into a cybernetic world, the other(which was damaged, releasing a [[Unicron|failsafe virus]] which became sentient trying to purge the Lifecode and wound up believing that its mission was to destroy all life in the universe) becomes a giant planet eating monster. The squids create [[brain modules]], and begin creating a slave race using the geode. They create a false religion about gods known as Primus and Unicron, who represent Order and Chaos, claiming the geode(now the Creation Matrix) was the conduit of Primus' lifeforce. The [[Covanent]] led a rebellion and [[Primon]] got the geode, which was passed down as a holy relic.<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685075User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:33:47Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief synopsis- [[Quintessons]] get their hands on [[P.R.I.M.U.S.| Primus]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685074User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:32:54Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief synopsis- [[Quintessons]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685073User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:32:43Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
Eugenesis origin is canon. Brief synopsis- [[Quintesson]]<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685070User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:31:38Z<p>TFfan1: /* Personal Canon */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal canon]]==<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=685069User:TransFormersfan12012-02-08T02:31:03Z<p>TFfan1: /* Fun Facts */</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==[[Personal Canon]]==<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:Liege_Maximo&diff=651864Talk:Liege Maximo2011-10-27T01:29:38Z<p>TFfan1: </p>
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<div>Umm.... I dunno but if I recall Unicron is eviller than the leige max, making this guy a little short of ultimate evil.<br />
: Everyone who reads comics knows that there's, at the very least, a few dozen ultimate evils all existing simultaneously. That's why the phrasing doesn't bother me much, since I'm used to such nonsensical hyperbole, but I'll see how I can reword it.--[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:24, 20 October 2006 (UTC)<br />
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I think an ish in parenthesies on the end of ultimate with a link to unicron might be good, but that's just me.<br />
: Thing is, there's an ultimate evil beyond Unicron. Furman's only ever gotten a chance to hint at it, but it exists. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:49, 20 October 2006 (UTC)<br />
::Is unicron really all that evil? He just embodies the need for destruction, he was created to do just that. I do not think he is inherently evil, I think that others give him a label that doesn't completely adhere to his job. As for the methods that he uses to execute his job, that's another story. --[[User:LokitheGrammarNazi|LokitheGrammarNazi]] 13:12, 18 September 2010 (EDT)<br />
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==Alignment==<br />
Does ''Alignment'' count as official fiction, or is it just over-glorified fanfiction? [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 22:02, 20 October 2006 (UTC)<br />
: It's fanfiction. The Ultimate Guide, written by Furman, reinforces this. It should get a trivia mention at the very least, though. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 22:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)<br />
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::On the other hand Ichikawa's "The History of Galvatron II" mentions Alignment, and convieniently forgets to mention that it's a Fanfic, Galvatron II's fleet of battleships might be a reference to his Fleet of War-Worlds in Alignment.<br />
:::We're pretty sure it is a reference. That doesn't really change the story's canonical status. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)<br />
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:::It mentions alignment- but IIRC it also places it in Japanese g2- meaning cartoon continuity, not comic-continuity. An analogous set of events. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)<br />
::::Galvatron II's bio is entirely just a description of the character from the Marvel Comics and his specific circumstances, even coming with a green Creation Matrix. Laser Magnus' bio is what connects GII to the fleet of warworlds, which are what Magnus comes out of the Matrix to destroy. But this Magnus apparently had the Matrix before and was dead, both which contradict the Marvel stuff. So, yeah, it's a murky area. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:29, 10 June 2007 (UTC)<br />
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== Adding from Exiles, could use advice... ==<br />
Just checking. The whole begining of this article is very G1 focused. I would like to add more info on the Aligned version of the Leige here, but as the begining is supposed to be continuity neutral that would necessitate moving the G2 specific stuff down to that fiction section... and I'm not sure what to replace it with. Other than "That Liege Maximo is one bad ancient robot." Everything else I can think to say about him is only specific to G2 OR Aligned but not necissarily both. Thoughts? --[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 11:05, 12 October 2011 (EDT)<br />
:"...wait until I've finished Exiles and I'll happily help?" -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 11:13, 12 October 2011 (EDT)<br />
::The first paragraph of the intro is vaguely continuity-neutral enough. It's only the mention of the Hub and the Liege being the ruler of the Cybertronian Emprie that needs to be moved. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 12:00, 12 October 2011 (EDT)<br />
:::AND the part about Megs and the Cons desending from him. AND The part about being created as the ultimate evil counterforce. That Doesn't leave much there.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 12:44, 12 October 2011 (EDT)::<br />
::::Given the apparent separation of the new Aligned continuity from the previous multiverse, I'm afraid it's starting to look like there may be need to split the Thirteeners articles in two, and create Liege Maximo (Aligned) or something. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 15:55, 12 October 2011 (EDT)<br />
:::::I've felt the same trying to add in conflicting Exiles info to very Multiverse focused pages. I just didn't want to be the one to suggest it.--[[Special:Contributions/76.28.76.206|76.28.76.206]] 16:04, 12 October 2011 (EDT)<br />
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Should someone cut and put the image of who is likely Maximo from the One Shall Rise Thirteen pic? If we're putting up the bearded Thirteen as Prime A3, then wouldn't the big, horned bot on the right with what looks like a beehive for the back of his head be Maximo? Just sayin'- TFfan1 6:29 26 october 2011 (EDT)</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=648028User:TransFormersfan12011-10-16T03:43:26Z<p>TFfan1: </p>
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<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==Fun Facts==<br />
*First figure-Armada Smokescreen<br />
*Favorite character-G1 Shockwave(with MASER tank altmode in the Generations line(if only))/WFC Shockwave(needs toy)<br />
*RIBFIR(enough said)<br />
*wishes he had Superlink Laserwave(not Shockblast)<br />
*favorite character who gets no love-G1 Punch(working on custom using Generation Drift/Blurr)<br />
*hopes to draw/write for IDW someday(or anywere that produces TF comics)<br />
*is not fond of Pat Lee's existance and history<br />
*right to create a whole page devoted to him:none whatsoever<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=User:TransFormersfan1&diff=648016User:TransFormersfan12011-10-16T03:16:54Z<p>TFfan1: New page: Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland. ==Fun Facts== *First figure-Armada Smokescreen *Favorite character-G1 Shockwave(with MASER tank altmode in the Generations line(if only))/WFC...</p>
<hr />
<div>Hi. '''TFfan1''' is a Transfan from Ireland.<br />
<br />
==Fun Facts==<br />
*First figure-Armada Smokescreen<br />
*Favorite character-G1 Shockwave(with MASER tank altmode in the Generations line(if only))/WFC Shockwave(needs toy)<br />
*RIBFIR(enough said)<br />
*wishes he had Superlink Laserwave(not Shockblast)<br />
*favorite character who gets no love-G1 Punch(working on custom using Generation Drift/Blurr)<br />
*hopes to draw/write for IDW someday(or anywere that produces TF comics)<br />
*is not fond of Pat Lee's existance and history<br />
*right to create a whole page devoted to him:none whatsoeer<br />
<br />
==External links==<br />
*[http://tffan1.deviantart.com/ TFfan1 on DeviantART]</div>TFfan1https://tfwiki.duckdns.org/index.php?title=Talk:One_Shall_Rise,_Part_3&diff=648006Talk:One Shall Rise, Part 32011-10-16T03:02:55Z<p>TFfan1: </p>
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-->As with the previous one, is it worth saying that this episode was shown today in Singapore? [[User:Daughter-of-Myou|daughter-of-Myou]] 12:26, 4 October 2011 (EDT)<br />
::Yes. {{unsigned|209.51.184.13}}<br />
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Should It be mentioned that this is the first time an autobot says soundwave's name? {{unsigned|76.117.9.216}}<br />
:I don't think someone saying someone else's name is particularly notable, unless it's a continuity error or something. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 18:20, 10 October 2011 (EDT)<br />
:It's just he's never been referred or even mentioned by the autobots at all. I thought it was kind of interesting.<br />
::Raf calls Soundwave by name in "Deus ex Machina", so I think it's safe to say the Autobots told the kids about him. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 21:50, 10 October 2011 (EDT)<br />
:::Still the autobots never directly mention him at all. Just kind of interesting since every other con's (not counting vehicons) name has been said by the autobots on screen. Just something interesting to point out.<br />
Since sections such as the trivia have been added to already, some points giving spoilers, would anyone like me to write up a synopsis for the episode? [[User:Daughter-of-Myou|daughter-of-Myou]] 05:09, 11 October 2011 (EDT)<br />
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When Optimus Prime opened the Matrix of Leadership, it looks as though it contains/contained a crystal shard of some kind. Should this be mentioned here? {{unsigned|Ultra Magnotron}}<!--<br />
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Should it be mentioned that Megatronus has red armor in place of purple in the flashhbacks? [[User:TFfan1|TFfan1]] 8:02 October 15 2011 (EDT)</div>TFfan1