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Death/Archive

2009-06-14T00:31:50Z

Werthead: /* Marvel comics continuity */

[[Image:Battleofautobotcity.jpg|right|300px|thumb|And the sounds of a million fanboys' cries were heard across the land.]]
Unusually for something that started as a children's toy and an '80s cartoon, '''death''' of important characters is a prominent feature in [[Transformer|Transformers]]. The reasons for it vary from plot development to the arrival of [[To sell toys|new toys]]. However, the fact that the majority of characters are machines means that death isn't automatically an absolute in the various Transformers universes—various characters that appear to have been killed have been known to pop up alive again at a later date, or go through some sort of revival. However, it's not unheard of for death to sometimes be permanent in Transformers.

{{quote|"How can you all be so cold and unfeeling? He died a hero!"<br>
"Don't you even have mechanical hearts?"<br>
"The humans don't understand! Our form of life is vastly different from theirs!"|[[Spider-Man]], [[Sparkplug Witwicky]], and [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]|"[[Prisoner of War!]]"}}

==Generation 1==
===Marvel comics continuity===
The first time the concept of death was addressed in Transformers was when [[Gears]] appeared to fall to his death while he and [[Spider-Man]] were rescuing [[Sparkplug Witwicky]]. The Autobots coldly gathered up Gears's parts, which creeped out Spidey and Sparkplug, who were expecting some show of sadness for the Autobots' fallen comrade. Gears was rebuilt and back in tip-top shape without a problem. {{storylink|Prisoner of War!}} This easy cheating of death would be seen again in the storyline that followed, where [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] would viciously injure all Autobots bar [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]], only for them to be up and running later on (bar [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]]).

The first confirmed human death was in Marvel UK's #45, where [[Professor Morris]] used a brainwashed [[Swoop (G1)|Swoop]] to murder a security guard. {{storylink|The Icarus Theory}} However, [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] did run a car off the road causing it to explode with its driver screaming in UK# 14, whilst in the same issue [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] blew up several human jets in mid-air. {{storylink|The Enemy Within!}}

Outright Transformer death would be seen in the first story set on Cybertron. The story opens with a Decepticon killing civilians only for [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] to kill ''it''; [[Straxus (G1)|Straxus]], current commander of the Decepticons, was constantly throwing hordes of Transformers to their deaths in his [[smelting pool]]; and Blaster's ally [[Scrounge]] died a quite brutal death. {{storylink|The Smelting Pool!}} Furman notably pre-empted this some time earlier with the deaths of [[Earthquake]] and [[Tornado]] in a flashback sequence, {{storylink|The Enemy Within!}} whilst the [[Man of Iron]] and [[Navigator]] died even earlier. {{storylink|Man of Iron!}}

Soon death would be seen again and again, particularly in Furman's UK strips—generally these deaths would be of original characters who lacked toys, such as [[Impactor]]. {{storylink|Target: 2006}} This was a useful way of getting across a sense of genuine war and build reader tension, while simultaneously leaving the toy characters untouched.

[[Image:Newyorkunderbase.jpg|left|175px|thumb|Gears died as he lived—not being on-panel.]]
[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] himself would end up outright dying to clear the way for new characters—following immediately on, [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] was killed in a [[Space Bridge]] accident. {{storylink|Afterdeath!}} {{storylink|Gone but Not Forgotten!}} The following issue would have the Transformers holding a funeral for Optimus, {{storylink|Funeral For A Friend!}} while a crossover story unceremoniously bumped off [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]]. {{storylink|Ashes, Ashes...}} This kill-spree was slightly undermined by [[Bob Budiansky]] leaving himself a get-out clause, and showing the reader that a back-up copy of Optimus Prime's mind could exist. Megatron, meanwhile, would turn up alive in Marvel UK so they could sneak around the US stories without contradicting their plots (he'd later be retconned as a clone). {{storylink|Ancient Relics!}}

Marvel UK stories set in the post-movie future got to be even more kill-happy—as they didn't have to bother meshing with the present day continuity, any character could be killed off. As well as minor ones such as [[Inferno (G1)|Inferno]], this would also include major character Shockwave. {{storylink|The Legacy of Unicron!}}

Soon, Transformers was saddled with a large number of characters who no longer had toys—to thin the crowd, both [[Simon Furman]] and Budiansky began repeated cullings so the newer toys could get more "screen time". In Marvel UK, most of the [[Wrecker|Wreckers]], [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] (and previously [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]]), and a few little-seen Decepticons would all be slaughtered. {{storylink|Time Wars}} That paled before the most grandiose of slaughters, the [[Underbase Saga]], where a super powered [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] destroyed/deactivated dozens of Transformers, [[Autobot]] and [[Decepticon]] alike. ''Conveniently'', only those with organic bits ([[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]], [[Pretender|Pretenders]] et al) could survive the [[Underbase]]. {{storylink|Dark Star (issue)|Dark Star}} Many of these characters would remain dead until the climax of the Unicron saga, when they were revived by [[Nucleon]]; at the same time, the Unicron battle would kill off scores of characters who'd survived the Underbase! {{storylink|On the Edge of Extinction!}}

The experience of having been dead does not seem to bother most Transformers who were resurrected. One exception is Optimus Prime; due to his time spent as a computer-game character (no, really), he was separated emotionally from his past life and lost interest in Earth. This was soon cured. {{storylink|Cold Comfort and Joy!}} Another exception is if a Transformer has suffered a humiliating death or rebirth; their confidence will end up weakened. {{storylink|Fallen Star!}}

===American cartoon continuity===
[[Image:Tftm1986a.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Who knew Autobots could be killed by shooting their [[shoulder]]s?]]

''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'' is infamous for the slaughter of a large number of season 1 and 2 characters, especially the likes of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Starscream (G1)| Starscream]]. The reason for this was the upcoming season 3 toy line. Some would die without getting a chance to say anything or even being ''named''.

In this continuity, dead Transformers can still exist as ghosts. These ghosts are capable of possessing the forms of living Transformers. {{storylink|Starscream's Ghost}} Or at least Starscream can; there's no evidence of any other Transformers being able to do the same.

When [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]] bearers die, their wisdom and spirits remain within the Matrix. A near-death experience allows the current Matrix bearer to make contact with these spirits. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4}}

===Japanese cartoon continuity===
The Japanese continuity did not skimp on showing death as a part of war. Aside from numerous generic robots (for example, the prison guards from ''[[Victory (cartoon)|Victory]]''), notable characters were also killed. The most famous victim of this tendency was [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], who died in battle against [[Sixshot]] in ''[[The Headmasters (cartoon)|The Headmasters]]''. In ''[[Super-God Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]'', [[Sixknight]] was killed by [[Devil Z]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|BlackZarak]] perished in the finale along with the Decepticon Emperor.

However, Transformers that have been mortally wounded can be rebuilt into new forms, as happened with [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave/Soundblaster]] and [[Ginrai]]/[[Victory Leo]]. Also, because of a different approach to censorship, human death was not unheard of. While not present in the first two seasons (which were simply translated from the American version) nor the following ''Headmasters'' cartoon, plenty of humans became unlucky collateral damage from ''Masterforce'' onwards. Besides victims such as [[Professor Gō]] early in the series, the Decepticons often slaughtered people in the course of their activities. [[Giga]], for example, destroyed a passing airliner (presumably killing all aboard) simply to test his new [[Deathball]] toys. In ''Victory'', Earth was spared much destruction until the latter half of the series, when [[Deathsaurus]]'s forces began attacking in earnest (killing countless human soldiers in the process). In addition, [[Star Saber (Victory)|Star Saber]]'s adopted son, [[Jean Minakaze]], was the sole survivor of a Decepticon attack.

At the same time, supernatural forces irrefutably exist in this universe and are capable of reversing the process of death. Optimus Prime died a second time {{storylink|Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime}} but was brought back by [[Zodiac]] energy as Star Convoy {{storylink|The Battlestars}}; the evil entity [[Dark Nova]] took Galvatron's remains and reformatted them as Super Megatron. The demonic being [[Violen Jygar]] was composed of the "angry souls" of dead Decepticons, and seemingly resurrected BlackZarak to serve as one of his Demon-Generals. {{storylink|Enter the New Supreme Commander, Dai Atlas!}}

The [[Kiss Player|Kiss Players]], infected by Galvatron's cells, are capable of resurrecting dead Transformers like Optimus by kissing him and channelling the cells into him; however, once the cells were taken out, Optimus died again. {{storylink|Kiss Players (fiction)|Kiss Players}}

==Generation 2==
The ''Generation 2'' comic had less oversight from Hasbro, a whole lot of inherited characters that didn't have toys, and an existence in the ''extreeeeeme'' and violent 1990s US comic industry. The result was the Transformer equivalent of the Battle of the Somme—almost every issue would have a known Transformer or three being killed off. Even the crossover with [[G.I. Joe]], setting up Megatron's new toy, killed off four. {{storylink|Final Transformations|Final Transformations}}

[[Image:Blades1.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Blades in Generation 2: a violent, gritty, pointlessly graphic nightmare… in Generation 2.]]
Even characters who had previously been major ones in the Marvel Comics would be killed, with [[Nightbeat (G1)|Nightbeat]], [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]], [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] and [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] all dying alongside lesser-seen characters like [[Skullgrin]] and [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]]. Amusingly, some of these characters (such as Dirge, [[Joyride (Autobot)|Joyride]] and [[Quake (G1)|Quake]]) had died in earlier G1 issues and had returned from the dead without explanation ''solely to be bumped off''. [[Red Alert (G1)|Red Alert]], a 1985 Autobot car, even made his ''very first'' clear appearance in the US comics in one issue, only to be immediately killed off after giving his first (and last) line of dialogue. {{storylink|Devices and Desires!|Devices and Desires!}}

In addition, the Transformers would slaughter large numbers of [[Cybertronian Empire]] soldiers, and many alien planets were shown being exterminated. [[Earth]] didn't escape unscathed either, with widespread devastation, open slaughter of humans and the obliteration of [[San Francisco]]. Oh, and Prime dies and comes back ''again''.
{{-}}
==Beast Wars==
[[Image:BW Scorponok Terrorsaur deaths.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Even having a new toy couldn't save Terrorsaur!]]
''[[Beast Wars]]'', being a CGI cartoon, could not afford to have too many characters in the show at any one time—once they reached seven-a-side by Season 1, any new character coming in would mean an old one going out. This led to some quite arbitrary deaths, such as [[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] falling into lava and going unmourned, or [[Tigatron]] and [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] suddenly being dragged into space by the [[Vok]]. [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], by contrast, had an episode devoted to his heroic sacrifice and his death served as the end to his plot arc for that season, and has become one of the most popular episodes. {{storylink|Code of Hero|Code of Hero}}

One problem ''Beast Wars'' had with killing characters is that every character on the show would be blown up real good during the series, only to be put back together again—this would mean when they were actually being killed, they'd sometimes be suffering less damage than they had in battles where they lived. In addition, [[Optimus Primal]] and [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] both died and came back with brand new bodies, showing death to be a potential revolving door. At one point, [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] was clearly vaporised in an explosion—but, because it was decided not to kill him when Season 3 started, he was suddenly merely a bit singed. {{storylink|Optimal Situation|Optimal Situation}}

[[Image:Dinobot2beastmode.JPG|left|200px|thumb|We're not using the Z word!]]
The character of [[Dinobot II]] presents interesting questions about Transformer death. While cloned from the original Dinobot and possessing the same voice, same look (albeit an eerie skeletal version) and same skills, he had a different personality & memories and was clearly a different character, even carrying a different Spark (half of [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]]'s). However, in the season finale, the destruction of Rampage caused him to gain an increasing number of Dinobot's memories that he could not have and start gaining Dinobot's personality. He also viewed his Spark as being "different… at last complete". {{storylink|Nemesis Part 2|Nemesis Part 2}} How all this occurred was not explained; based on the visual of him turning into the original Dinobot & back again when Rampage was destroyed, {{storylink|Nemesis Part 1|Nemesis Part 1}} it could be assumed the original was influencing him.

The final three episodes would kill seven characters, including the majority of the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] and two of the Maximals—including [[Tigerhawk]], who only appeared two episodes before his death—to pave the way for ''[[Beast Machines]]''.

===IDW comics continuity===
IDW's ''Beast Wars'' comics would introduce a large number of unused toys into the fiction—a large number of which were then massacred in the second miniseries. Many of them had hardly got a chance to show any characterization. The exception is [[Razorbeast]], who had been the main character in the previous story and had to be euthanised by one of his friends. {{storylink|The Ascending|The Ascending}}

==Beast Machines==
[[Image:Fallout title.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Primal's diet had gone horribly wrong.]]
The premise of ''[[Beast Machines]]'' was that [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] had taken over Cybertron and removed the [[Spark|Sparks]] from everyone, leaving massive graveyards across the planet. However, this hadn't actually ''killed'' anyone—as long as the Sparks survived, they could be put in a new body and live again, and everyone was restored at the end of the series. {{storylink|Endgame Pt. III: Seeds of the Future|Endgame Pt. III: Seeds of the Future}}

The series would also introduce the concept of the [[Allspark]]—a dimension composed of Transformer Sparks, the home of every one that will or can ever be. When a Transformer dies, their Spark returns to it and all of their knowledge and life experience is added to the Allspark. [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]]'s spirit would be seen within in it, advising Optimus Primal to move on.

Optimus Primal was outright killed, but would come back to life again after deciding not to join with the Allspark but continue his mission {{storylink|Fallout|Fallout}}; this could be seen an in-universe explanation for why some Transformers return to life while others stay dead. Primal would die ''properly'' later on, taking Megatron with him.

The original [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]] generals contained the Sparks of existing ''Beast Wars'' characters but possessed completely different personalities—most notably [[Thrust (BM)|Thrust]], the brooding, loyal and fearless general who had ''[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]]'s'' Spark. Overriding the general's shell programs to bring back the original characters could be seen as killing the Vehicons.

===Singularity Ablyss===
Megatron would also have the opportunity to allow himself to pass on and rejoin the Allspark. However, his repeated returns to life (during "[[Spark of Darkness]]") convinced him he could still achieve godhood and so he rejected passing on. He also ''erased Rhinox's Spark'', showing that even the dead can be killed. {{storylink|Singularity Ablyss}}<ref>However, due to an editorial caveat in the foreword, all the prose stories in ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' are "What If?" stories that are not to be considered as actually occurring in the continuities they are based on. As a result, the events depicted in "[[Singularity Ablyss]]" technically belong to a [[Micro-continuity]] and are therefore not canon for the mainstream ''Beast Machines'' continuity.</ref>

==Robots in Disguise==
The ''Robots in Disguise'' franchise is unique in that almost nobody dies. The exception is [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]]—he was completely destroyed, but then reborn as Galvatron due to the [[Orb of Sigma]] and energy drained from Predacon [[sparks]]. {{storylink|Peril from the Past|Peril from the Past}} While possessing the same voice, personality and general form of Megatron, Galvatron declares himself to be a different person and his former self to be dead. {{storylink|Maximus Emerges|Maximus Emerges}}

==Universe==
[[Image:Wreckers Mutants.jpg|left|150px|thumb|The shocking death of the barely-seen guys with hardly any lines!]]
The [[BotCon]] comic ''The Wreckers'' would use death quite a lot in its second issue, for one very specific reason—they'd brought in too many bloody characters in the ''first'' issue. A few massacres later and the cast was down to a more manageable level. {{storylink|Betrayal|Betrayal}}

''Universe'''s multiverse-spanning story allows for a lot of death in character backstories—[[Smokescreen (G1)|Smokescreen]] is killed by [[Smokescreen (Armada)|another Smokescreen]], Unicron's generals all killed [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] in their home dimensions, and [[Megazarak]] has killed everyone on his Cybertron. {{storylink|Shell Game|Shell Game}} Conversely, it also allowed for a whole load of character ''resurrections''—[[Optimus Primal]], [[Depth Charge]], [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] and [[Tarantulas]] all returned from the dead. One of the Wreckers, meanwhile, is a revived [[Tigatron]].

==Unicron Trilogy==
===Cartoon===
Optimus died holding back the [[Hydra Cannon]], the damage causing him to [[:Image:Sshot-arm-39-4.jpg|crumble to dust]]. {{storylink|Crisis|Crisis}} Through the power of the [[Matrix]], he was resurrected by the [[Mini-Cons]] shortly afterward. {{storylink|Miracle|Miracle}}

[[Image:ArmadaGalvatron Prime hangon.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Galvatron died to save everyone and came back ''twice''—you lose, [[Jesus]]!]]

Both [[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] {{storylink|Mortal Combat|Mortal Combat}} and [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] {{storylink|Cramp|Cramp}} would make heroic sacrifices in ''Armada'' to stop Unicron—only to return from the dead for the ''Energon'' cartoon. And then sacrificed themselves again at the end of that one {{storylink|The Sun|The Sun}}—and came back again for the next cartoon!

Some characters would be severely injured and seemingly killed, but would survive by being rebuilt into a new character—[[Smokescreen (Armada)|Smokescreen]] became Hoist, [[Tidal Wave]] became Mirage, etc.

[[Alpha Quintesson]] and Unicron possessed the ability to create new Transformers—[[Terrorcon (Energon)|Terrorcons]] and [[Scorponok (Energon)|Scorponok]]—out of the remains of the dead. Scorponok was an odd case: it was originally presented that he was a recreated version of an inhabitant of Alpha Q's homeworld, but later retconned that he was, in fact, merely created in that being's image, and actually animated by the Spark of a dead Decepticon. This retcon, however, did not make it into the ''[[Energon (cartoon)|Energon]]'', since the [[Return! Our Scorponok|episode]] featuring it was not dubbed. Scorponok was later killed, but in both the fan club comics and ''Cybertron'' toy tech specs, he became an undead monster.

In the Unicron Trilogy cartoons, resurrection often altered the basic personality of a Transformer. Tidal Wave became more intelligent as Mirage, as well as gaining a crush on Galvatron; [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] devolved in intelligence and became more ape-like; the morally conflicted Starscream, who sacrificed himself for the greater good, would became an ambitious power-hungry traitor like [[Starscream (G1)|those]] [[Starscream (Animated)|other]] Starscreams. This has not occurred in other canons, where death and rebirth rarely seems to cause any real problems for anyone.

===Comic===
While it can be safely assumed people ''did'' die in the Autobot-Decepticon war, it was only shown on panel when the [[Unicron]] plotline took over. {{storylink|Worlds Collide|Worlds Collide}} In addition, Unicron was shown to be able to kill and rebuild Transformers into his loyal servants, doing it to [[Rhinox (Armada)|Rhinox]] and his [[Terrorsaur (Armada)|fellow]] [[Airazor (Armada)|Beast]] [[Cheetor (Armada)|Warriors]]. {{storylink|This Evil Reborn|This Evil Reborn}} While his body had died, Megatron's consciousness remained within Unicron's spark core, and from here was able to return to life with a new body.

==Transformers (2007) movie==
The live-action movie would feature death galore in its climactic battle scenes, with almost every [[Decepticon]] being wiped out and [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] being killed in battle. Not to mention the humans; almost an entire military base is wiped out by [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]]; [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]]'s enjoyment of stabbing; possible demises caused by [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]] on [[Air Force One]]; [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]] hatefully sweeping away traffic; and countless possible casualties in [[Mission City]]. {{storylink|Transformers (2007)|Transformers (2007)}}

===IDW Publishing===
[[Image:RoS2Salazarpopt.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Comic books can get away with this, while PG-13 movies can't]]
[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] blew up an [[F-22 Raptor]] to obtain his alternate mode. {{storylink|Prime Directive (IDW) issue 4|Prime Directive (IDW) issue 4}} He kills countless [[Sector 7]] soldiers when searching for [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]]'s body in the [[Hoover Dam]], and takes a [[Salazar|human]] along while leaving Earth to see if he can survive the trip. He doesn't. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream issue 2|The Reign of Starscream issue 2}}

On the Transformers side, a whole lot of toys die bloody in "The Reign of Starscream Issue Number Three"—coincidentally after they'd been on the shelves for a while. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream issue 3|The Reign of Starscream issue 3}}

===Titan Magazines===
{{notetitantlg}}
From [[Transformers Comic issue 9|the ninth issue]] of ''Transformers Comic'', the movie-based comic strip took place in an alternate universe where the Decepticons won in the film. As a result, human casualties are quite high; thousands of [[NATO]] sailors are killed in battle, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] bombs humans to spread terror, and [[Sam Witwicky]] is established to have died.

Shockingly for a [[Rhythms of Darkness!|Furman-written alternate universe]], Transformer deaths have so far been few. No Autobots are yet confirmed as dead, while Decepticon casualties so far include [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]], [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]] and [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] following the initial story. Many Decepticon drones, however, are wiped out by the heroes.

[[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] actually came ''back'' from the dead, resurrection being a property of the All Spark. However, anything done to the All Spark will affect the resurrectee; corrupt the All Spark, as Megatron did, and you end up with a corrupt, amoral Transformer. {{storylink|Dark Spark|Dark Spark}}

Megatron also came back from the dead (of ''course'' he did) by having downloaded his consciousness into another vessel, showing that (ala ''Afterdeath!'' and ''Rock and Roll Out!'') Transformers can be backed up. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 22|The Decepticon Who Haunted Himself}}

==Animated==
[[Image:TFAnimated transformandrollout DEATH.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Death — the Optimus version of a power nap.]]
Severe physical damage does not kill Transformers in the ''Animated'' universe — [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] survived despite being reduced to a severed head, while [[Lugnut]] and [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]] remained conscious despite being in bits {{storylink|Lost and Found (episode)|Lost and Found}} and the dismembered [[Soundwave (Animated)|Soundwave]] has been hinted to still function. {{storylink|Sound and Fury|Sound and Fury}}

Transformer death is, however, possible — a combination of physical damage and AllSpark energy outright killed [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]]. He was resurrected immediately afterward by the [[Key]], which, uniquely, channelled the energy of the AllSpark directly (as opposed to the energy stored inside it) for the purpose. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out|Transform and Roll Out}}

Starscream also was killed {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 2}} only to be brought back to life by AllSpark energy. In his case, despite his Spark being extinguished, an AllSpark shard has embedded in his head and makes him immortal — kill him, and he'll just come back two minutes later. This has possibly made him the most tenacious (and annoying) Starscream to date. To [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]], anyway. {{storylink|Mission Accomplished|Mission Accomplished}}

[[Image:Afterburn_GOOOOOMPH.JPG|right|200px|thumb|But how can Bumblebee ''see it''?]]

Similarly, [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]] had died long ago saving Cybertron in the Great War, but with AllSpark energy he was able to be revived. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part II}} To prevent him dying, he was placed into modified stasis in his spaceship mode in order to stave off ''total'' death until a cure could be found. In an interesting look at [[Transformer funerary practices]], the Autobots then used him ''as'' a spaceship with seemingly no qualms. {{storylink|Transwarped}}

It is possible to be a living Transformer ''without'' a Spark. Two [[Starscream clone|of the Starscream clones]] lacked Sparks, as did [[Afterburn]] in spin-off material. When they ''die'', however, their being Spark-less means nobody cares. Nobody even commented on the demise of the clones {{storylink|A Fistful of Energon|A Fistful of Energon}} and both Megatron ''and'' Optimus outright stated that Afterburn wasn't a ''real'' person because he'd lacked a Spark {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 24|Megatron's Revenge}}.

It is possible to avert death by transferring a spark into a [[blank]] [[protoform]]. A number of robots, however, view this as appalling as it sacrifices everything that protoform could have been. {{storylink|Five Servos of Doom}}

[[Lockdown]] has a habit of scavenging parts of his victims to use as "upgrades", a habit that sickens other Transformers.

==Footnotes==
<references />

==See also==

* [[Endspark]]

* [[Transformer funerary practices]]

* Those who die a lot
** [[The many deaths of Optimus Prime]]
** [[Dirge (G1)]] — the unlucky guy who gets [[:Image:Dirge DeathSerpentor.jpg|killed]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathSwarm.jpg|off]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathTimelines.jpg|in]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathUnicron.jpg|many]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathArmada.jpg|continuities]] (but less than [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]]).
** [[Quake (G1)|Quake]] — the unlucky guy who gets killed over and over in the same continuity, but doesn't seem to mind.
** [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] — the unlucky guy from ''[[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]]'' who gets sliced, diced, and fricasseed every other episode only to be fully functional in time to get [[Slag (slang)|slagged]] ''again''.
** [[Cy-Kill (disambiguation)|Cy-Kill]], a Go-Bots character transferred to many Transformers comics just to be killed off violently. For no other reason than the lolz of ending his toyline, his universe, and finally his life...repeatedly.
** [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]] — the unlucky [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] [[:Image:Sentinel prime lou.jpg|who]] [[:Image:Sentinel prime dw.jpg|must]] [[Megatron Origin issue 4|die]].

* [[To sell toys]]

[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Transformer anatomy]]

Death/Archive

2009-06-14T00:31:22Z

Werthead: /* Marvel comics continuity */

[[Image:Battleofautobotcity.jpg|right|300px|thumb|And the sounds of a million fanboys' cries were heard across the land.]]
Unusually for something that started as a children's toy and an '80s cartoon, '''death''' of important characters is a prominent feature in [[Transformer|Transformers]]. The reasons for it vary from plot development to the arrival of [[To sell toys|new toys]]. However, the fact that the majority of characters are machines means that death isn't automatically an absolute in the various Transformers universes—various characters that appear to have been killed have been known to pop up alive again at a later date, or go through some sort of revival. However, it's not unheard of for death to sometimes be permanent in Transformers.

{{quote|"How can you all be so cold and unfeeling? He died a hero!"<br>
"Don't you even have mechanical hearts?"<br>
"The humans don't understand! Our form of life is vastly different from theirs!"|[[Spider-Man]], [[Sparkplug Witwicky]], and [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]|"[[Prisoner of War!]]"}}

==Generation 1==
===Marvel comics continuity===
The first time the concept of death was addressed in Transformers was when [[Gears]] appeared to fall to his death while he and [[Spider-Man]] were rescuing [[Sparkplug Witwicky]]. The Autobots coldly gathered up Gears's parts, which creeped out Spidey and Sparkplug, who were expecting some show of sadness for the Autobots' fallen comrade. Gears was rebuilt and back in tip-top shape without a problem. {{storylink|Prisoner of War!}} This easy cheating of death would be seen again in the storyline that followed, where [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] would viciously injure all Autobots bar [[Ratchet (G1)|Ratchet]], only for them to be up and running later on (bar [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]]).

The first confirmed human death was in Marvel UK's #45, where [[Professor Morris]] used a brainwashed [[Swoop (G1)|Swoop]] to murder a security guard. {{storylink|The Icarus Theory}} However, [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] did run a car off the road causing it to explode with its driver screaming in UK# 14, whilst in the same issue [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] blew up several human jets in mid-air. {{storylink|The Enemy Within!}}

Outright Transformer death would be seen in the first story set on Cybertron. The story opens with a Decepticon killing civilians only for [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]] to kill ''it''; [[Straxus (G1)|Straxus]], current commander of the Decepticons, was constantly throwing hordes of Transformers to their deaths in his [[smelting pool]]; and Blaster's ally [[Scrounge]] died a quite brutal death. {{storylink|The Smelting Pool!}} Furman notably pre-empted this some time earlier with the deaths of [[Whirlwind]] and [[Tornado]] in a flashback sequence, {{storylink|The Enemy Within!}} whilst the [[Man of Iron]] and [[Navigator]] died even earlier. {{storylink|Man of Iron!}}

Soon death would be seen again and again, particularly in Furman's UK strips—generally these deaths would be of original characters who lacked toys, such as [[Impactor]]. {{storylink|Target: 2006}} This was a useful way of getting across a sense of genuine war and build reader tension, while simultaneously leaving the toy characters untouched.

[[Image:Newyorkunderbase.jpg|left|175px|thumb|Gears died as he lived—not being on-panel.]]
[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] himself would end up outright dying to clear the way for new characters—following immediately on, [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] was killed in a [[Space Bridge]] accident. {{storylink|Afterdeath!}} {{storylink|Gone but Not Forgotten!}} The following issue would have the Transformers holding a funeral for Optimus, {{storylink|Funeral For A Friend!}} while a crossover story unceremoniously bumped off [[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]]. {{storylink|Ashes, Ashes...}} This kill-spree was slightly undermined by [[Bob Budiansky]] leaving himself a get-out clause, and showing the reader that a back-up copy of Optimus Prime's mind could exist. Megatron, meanwhile, would turn up alive in Marvel UK so they could sneak around the US stories without contradicting their plots (he'd later be retconned as a clone). {{storylink|Ancient Relics!}}

Marvel UK stories set in the post-movie future got to be even more kill-happy—as they didn't have to bother meshing with the present day continuity, any character could be killed off. As well as minor ones such as [[Inferno (G1)|Inferno]], this would also include major character Shockwave. {{storylink|The Legacy of Unicron!}}

Soon, Transformers was saddled with a large number of characters who no longer had toys—to thin the crowd, both [[Simon Furman]] and Budiansky began repeated cullings so the newer toys could get more "screen time". In Marvel UK, most of the [[Wrecker|Wreckers]], [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]] (and previously [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]]), and a few little-seen Decepticons would all be slaughtered. {{storylink|Time Wars}} That paled before the most grandiose of slaughters, the [[Underbase Saga]], where a super powered [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] destroyed/deactivated dozens of Transformers, [[Autobot]] and [[Decepticon]] alike. ''Conveniently'', only those with organic bits ([[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]], [[Pretender|Pretenders]] et al) could survive the [[Underbase]]. {{storylink|Dark Star (issue)|Dark Star}} Many of these characters would remain dead until the climax of the Unicron saga, when they were revived by [[Nucleon]]; at the same time, the Unicron battle would kill off scores of characters who'd survived the Underbase! {{storylink|On the Edge of Extinction!}}

The experience of having been dead does not seem to bother most Transformers who were resurrected. One exception is Optimus Prime; due to his time spent as a computer-game character (no, really), he was separated emotionally from his past life and lost interest in Earth. This was soon cured. {{storylink|Cold Comfort and Joy!}} Another exception is if a Transformer has suffered a humiliating death or rebirth; their confidence will end up weakened. {{storylink|Fallen Star!}}

===American cartoon continuity===
[[Image:Tftm1986a.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Who knew Autobots could be killed by shooting their [[shoulder]]s?]]

''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'' is infamous for the slaughter of a large number of season 1 and 2 characters, especially the likes of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] and [[Starscream (G1)| Starscream]]. The reason for this was the upcoming season 3 toy line. Some would die without getting a chance to say anything or even being ''named''.

In this continuity, dead Transformers can still exist as ghosts. These ghosts are capable of possessing the forms of living Transformers. {{storylink|Starscream's Ghost}} Or at least Starscream can; there's no evidence of any other Transformers being able to do the same.

When [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]] bearers die, their wisdom and spirits remain within the Matrix. A near-death experience allows the current Matrix bearer to make contact with these spirits. {{storylink|Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4}}

===Japanese cartoon continuity===
The Japanese continuity did not skimp on showing death as a part of war. Aside from numerous generic robots (for example, the prison guards from ''[[Victory (cartoon)|Victory]]''), notable characters were also killed. The most famous victim of this tendency was [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], who died in battle against [[Sixshot]] in ''[[The Headmasters (cartoon)|The Headmasters]]''. In ''[[Super-God Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]'', [[Sixknight]] was killed by [[Devil Z]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|BlackZarak]] perished in the finale along with the Decepticon Emperor.

However, Transformers that have been mortally wounded can be rebuilt into new forms, as happened with [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave/Soundblaster]] and [[Ginrai]]/[[Victory Leo]]. Also, because of a different approach to censorship, human death was not unheard of. While not present in the first two seasons (which were simply translated from the American version) nor the following ''Headmasters'' cartoon, plenty of humans became unlucky collateral damage from ''Masterforce'' onwards. Besides victims such as [[Professor Gō]] early in the series, the Decepticons often slaughtered people in the course of their activities. [[Giga]], for example, destroyed a passing airliner (presumably killing all aboard) simply to test his new [[Deathball]] toys. In ''Victory'', Earth was spared much destruction until the latter half of the series, when [[Deathsaurus]]'s forces began attacking in earnest (killing countless human soldiers in the process). In addition, [[Star Saber (Victory)|Star Saber]]'s adopted son, [[Jean Minakaze]], was the sole survivor of a Decepticon attack.

At the same time, supernatural forces irrefutably exist in this universe and are capable of reversing the process of death. Optimus Prime died a second time {{storylink|Birth of the Fantastic Double Prime}} but was brought back by [[Zodiac]] energy as Star Convoy {{storylink|The Battlestars}}; the evil entity [[Dark Nova]] took Galvatron's remains and reformatted them as Super Megatron. The demonic being [[Violen Jygar]] was composed of the "angry souls" of dead Decepticons, and seemingly resurrected BlackZarak to serve as one of his Demon-Generals. {{storylink|Enter the New Supreme Commander, Dai Atlas!}}

The [[Kiss Player|Kiss Players]], infected by Galvatron's cells, are capable of resurrecting dead Transformers like Optimus by kissing him and channelling the cells into him; however, once the cells were taken out, Optimus died again. {{storylink|Kiss Players (fiction)|Kiss Players}}

==Generation 2==
The ''Generation 2'' comic had less oversight from Hasbro, a whole lot of inherited characters that didn't have toys, and an existence in the ''extreeeeeme'' and violent 1990s US comic industry. The result was the Transformer equivalent of the Battle of the Somme—almost every issue would have a known Transformer or three being killed off. Even the crossover with [[G.I. Joe]], setting up Megatron's new toy, killed off four. {{storylink|Final Transformations|Final Transformations}}

[[Image:Blades1.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Blades in Generation 2: a violent, gritty, pointlessly graphic nightmare… in Generation 2.]]
Even characters who had previously been major ones in the Marvel Comics would be killed, with [[Nightbeat (G1)|Nightbeat]], [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]], [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] and [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] all dying alongside lesser-seen characters like [[Skullgrin]] and [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]]. Amusingly, some of these characters (such as Dirge, [[Joyride (Autobot)|Joyride]] and [[Quake (G1)|Quake]]) had died in earlier G1 issues and had returned from the dead without explanation ''solely to be bumped off''. [[Red Alert (G1)|Red Alert]], a 1985 Autobot car, even made his ''very first'' clear appearance in the US comics in one issue, only to be immediately killed off after giving his first (and last) line of dialogue. {{storylink|Devices and Desires!|Devices and Desires!}}

In addition, the Transformers would slaughter large numbers of [[Cybertronian Empire]] soldiers, and many alien planets were shown being exterminated. [[Earth]] didn't escape unscathed either, with widespread devastation, open slaughter of humans and the obliteration of [[San Francisco]]. Oh, and Prime dies and comes back ''again''.
{{-}}
==Beast Wars==
[[Image:BW Scorponok Terrorsaur deaths.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Even having a new toy couldn't save Terrorsaur!]]
''[[Beast Wars]]'', being a CGI cartoon, could not afford to have too many characters in the show at any one time—once they reached seven-a-side by Season 1, any new character coming in would mean an old one going out. This led to some quite arbitrary deaths, such as [[Terrorsaur (BW)|Terrorsaur]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] falling into lava and going unmourned, or [[Tigatron]] and [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] suddenly being dragged into space by the [[Vok]]. [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]], by contrast, had an episode devoted to his heroic sacrifice and his death served as the end to his plot arc for that season, and has become one of the most popular episodes. {{storylink|Code of Hero|Code of Hero}}

One problem ''Beast Wars'' had with killing characters is that every character on the show would be blown up real good during the series, only to be put back together again—this would mean when they were actually being killed, they'd sometimes be suffering less damage than they had in battles where they lived. In addition, [[Optimus Primal]] and [[Blackarachnia (BW)|Blackarachnia]] both died and came back with brand new bodies, showing death to be a potential revolving door. At one point, [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] was clearly vaporised in an explosion—but, because it was decided not to kill him when Season 3 started, he was suddenly merely a bit singed. {{storylink|Optimal Situation|Optimal Situation}}

[[Image:Dinobot2beastmode.JPG|left|200px|thumb|We're not using the Z word!]]
The character of [[Dinobot II]] presents interesting questions about Transformer death. While cloned from the original Dinobot and possessing the same voice, same look (albeit an eerie skeletal version) and same skills, he had a different personality & memories and was clearly a different character, even carrying a different Spark (half of [[Rampage (BW)|Rampage]]'s). However, in the season finale, the destruction of Rampage caused him to gain an increasing number of Dinobot's memories that he could not have and start gaining Dinobot's personality. He also viewed his Spark as being "different… at last complete". {{storylink|Nemesis Part 2|Nemesis Part 2}} How all this occurred was not explained; based on the visual of him turning into the original Dinobot & back again when Rampage was destroyed, {{storylink|Nemesis Part 1|Nemesis Part 1}} it could be assumed the original was influencing him.

The final three episodes would kill seven characters, including the majority of the [[Predacon (BW)|Predacons]] and two of the Maximals—including [[Tigerhawk]], who only appeared two episodes before his death—to pave the way for ''[[Beast Machines]]''.

===IDW comics continuity===
IDW's ''Beast Wars'' comics would introduce a large number of unused toys into the fiction—a large number of which were then massacred in the second miniseries. Many of them had hardly got a chance to show any characterization. The exception is [[Razorbeast]], who had been the main character in the previous story and had to be euthanised by one of his friends. {{storylink|The Ascending|The Ascending}}

==Beast Machines==
[[Image:Fallout title.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Primal's diet had gone horribly wrong.]]
The premise of ''[[Beast Machines]]'' was that [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] had taken over Cybertron and removed the [[Spark|Sparks]] from everyone, leaving massive graveyards across the planet. However, this hadn't actually ''killed'' anyone—as long as the Sparks survived, they could be put in a new body and live again, and everyone was restored at the end of the series. {{storylink|Endgame Pt. III: Seeds of the Future|Endgame Pt. III: Seeds of the Future}}

The series would also introduce the concept of the [[Allspark]]—a dimension composed of Transformer Sparks, the home of every one that will or can ever be. When a Transformer dies, their Spark returns to it and all of their knowledge and life experience is added to the Allspark. [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]]'s spirit would be seen within in it, advising Optimus Primal to move on.

Optimus Primal was outright killed, but would come back to life again after deciding not to join with the Allspark but continue his mission {{storylink|Fallout|Fallout}}; this could be seen an in-universe explanation for why some Transformers return to life while others stay dead. Primal would die ''properly'' later on, taking Megatron with him.

The original [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicon]] generals contained the Sparks of existing ''Beast Wars'' characters but possessed completely different personalities—most notably [[Thrust (BM)|Thrust]], the brooding, loyal and fearless general who had ''[[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]]'s'' Spark. Overriding the general's shell programs to bring back the original characters could be seen as killing the Vehicons.

===Singularity Ablyss===
Megatron would also have the opportunity to allow himself to pass on and rejoin the Allspark. However, his repeated returns to life (during "[[Spark of Darkness]]") convinced him he could still achieve godhood and so he rejected passing on. He also ''erased Rhinox's Spark'', showing that even the dead can be killed. {{storylink|Singularity Ablyss}}<ref>However, due to an editorial caveat in the foreword, all the prose stories in ''[[Transformers Legends]]'' are "What If?" stories that are not to be considered as actually occurring in the continuities they are based on. As a result, the events depicted in "[[Singularity Ablyss]]" technically belong to a [[Micro-continuity]] and are therefore not canon for the mainstream ''Beast Machines'' continuity.</ref>

==Robots in Disguise==
The ''Robots in Disguise'' franchise is unique in that almost nobody dies. The exception is [[Megatron (RID)|Megatron]]—he was completely destroyed, but then reborn as Galvatron due to the [[Orb of Sigma]] and energy drained from Predacon [[sparks]]. {{storylink|Peril from the Past|Peril from the Past}} While possessing the same voice, personality and general form of Megatron, Galvatron declares himself to be a different person and his former self to be dead. {{storylink|Maximus Emerges|Maximus Emerges}}

==Universe==
[[Image:Wreckers Mutants.jpg|left|150px|thumb|The shocking death of the barely-seen guys with hardly any lines!]]
The [[BotCon]] comic ''The Wreckers'' would use death quite a lot in its second issue, for one very specific reason—they'd brought in too many bloody characters in the ''first'' issue. A few massacres later and the cast was down to a more manageable level. {{storylink|Betrayal|Betrayal}}

''Universe'''s multiverse-spanning story allows for a lot of death in character backstories—[[Smokescreen (G1)|Smokescreen]] is killed by [[Smokescreen (Armada)|another Smokescreen]], Unicron's generals all killed [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] in their home dimensions, and [[Megazarak]] has killed everyone on his Cybertron. {{storylink|Shell Game|Shell Game}} Conversely, it also allowed for a whole load of character ''resurrections''—[[Optimus Primal]], [[Depth Charge]], [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] and [[Tarantulas]] all returned from the dead. One of the Wreckers, meanwhile, is a revived [[Tigatron]].

==Unicron Trilogy==
===Cartoon===
Optimus died holding back the [[Hydra Cannon]], the damage causing him to [[:Image:Sshot-arm-39-4.jpg|crumble to dust]]. {{storylink|Crisis|Crisis}} Through the power of the [[Matrix]], he was resurrected by the [[Mini-Cons]] shortly afterward. {{storylink|Miracle|Miracle}}

[[Image:ArmadaGalvatron Prime hangon.jpg|right|180px|thumb|Galvatron died to save everyone and came back ''twice''—you lose, [[Jesus]]!]]

Both [[Megatron (Armada)|Galvatron]] {{storylink|Mortal Combat|Mortal Combat}} and [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]] {{storylink|Cramp|Cramp}} would make heroic sacrifices in ''Armada'' to stop Unicron—only to return from the dead for the ''Energon'' cartoon. And then sacrificed themselves again at the end of that one {{storylink|The Sun|The Sun}}—and came back again for the next cartoon!

Some characters would be severely injured and seemingly killed, but would survive by being rebuilt into a new character—[[Smokescreen (Armada)|Smokescreen]] became Hoist, [[Tidal Wave]] became Mirage, etc.

[[Alpha Quintesson]] and Unicron possessed the ability to create new Transformers—[[Terrorcon (Energon)|Terrorcons]] and [[Scorponok (Energon)|Scorponok]]—out of the remains of the dead. Scorponok was an odd case: it was originally presented that he was a recreated version of an inhabitant of Alpha Q's homeworld, but later retconned that he was, in fact, merely created in that being's image, and actually animated by the Spark of a dead Decepticon. This retcon, however, did not make it into the ''[[Energon (cartoon)|Energon]]'', since the [[Return! Our Scorponok|episode]] featuring it was not dubbed. Scorponok was later killed, but in both the fan club comics and ''Cybertron'' toy tech specs, he became an undead monster.

In the Unicron Trilogy cartoons, resurrection often altered the basic personality of a Transformer. Tidal Wave became more intelligent as Mirage, as well as gaining a crush on Galvatron; [[Demolishor (Armada)|Demolishor]] devolved in intelligence and became more ape-like; the morally conflicted Starscream, who sacrificed himself for the greater good, would became an ambitious power-hungry traitor like [[Starscream (G1)|those]] [[Starscream (Animated)|other]] Starscreams. This has not occurred in other canons, where death and rebirth rarely seems to cause any real problems for anyone.

===Comic===
While it can be safely assumed people ''did'' die in the Autobot-Decepticon war, it was only shown on panel when the [[Unicron]] plotline took over. {{storylink|Worlds Collide|Worlds Collide}} In addition, Unicron was shown to be able to kill and rebuild Transformers into his loyal servants, doing it to [[Rhinox (Armada)|Rhinox]] and his [[Terrorsaur (Armada)|fellow]] [[Airazor (Armada)|Beast]] [[Cheetor (Armada)|Warriors]]. {{storylink|This Evil Reborn|This Evil Reborn}} While his body had died, Megatron's consciousness remained within Unicron's spark core, and from here was able to return to life with a new body.

==Transformers (2007) movie==
The live-action movie would feature death galore in its climactic battle scenes, with almost every [[Decepticon]] being wiped out and [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] being killed in battle. Not to mention the humans; almost an entire military base is wiped out by [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]]; [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]]'s enjoyment of stabbing; possible demises caused by [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]] on [[Air Force One]]; [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]] hatefully sweeping away traffic; and countless possible casualties in [[Mission City]]. {{storylink|Transformers (2007)|Transformers (2007)}}

===IDW Publishing===
[[Image:RoS2Salazarpopt.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Comic books can get away with this, while PG-13 movies can't]]
[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] blew up an [[F-22 Raptor]] to obtain his alternate mode. {{storylink|Prime Directive (IDW) issue 4|Prime Directive (IDW) issue 4}} He kills countless [[Sector 7]] soldiers when searching for [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]]'s body in the [[Hoover Dam]], and takes a [[Salazar|human]] along while leaving Earth to see if he can survive the trip. He doesn't. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream issue 2|The Reign of Starscream issue 2}}

On the Transformers side, a whole lot of toys die bloody in "The Reign of Starscream Issue Number Three"—coincidentally after they'd been on the shelves for a while. {{storylink|The Reign of Starscream issue 3|The Reign of Starscream issue 3}}

===Titan Magazines===
{{notetitantlg}}
From [[Transformers Comic issue 9|the ninth issue]] of ''Transformers Comic'', the movie-based comic strip took place in an alternate universe where the Decepticons won in the film. As a result, human casualties are quite high; thousands of [[NATO]] sailors are killed in battle, [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]] bombs humans to spread terror, and [[Sam Witwicky]] is established to have died.

Shockingly for a [[Rhythms of Darkness!|Furman-written alternate universe]], Transformer deaths have so far been few. No Autobots are yet confirmed as dead, while Decepticon casualties so far include [[Bonecrusher (Movie)|Bonecrusher]], [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]] and [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]] following the initial story. Many Decepticon drones, however, are wiped out by the heroes.

[[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] actually came ''back'' from the dead, resurrection being a property of the All Spark. However, anything done to the All Spark will affect the resurrectee; corrupt the All Spark, as Megatron did, and you end up with a corrupt, amoral Transformer. {{storylink|Dark Spark|Dark Spark}}

Megatron also came back from the dead (of ''course'' he did) by having downloaded his consciousness into another vessel, showing that (ala ''Afterdeath!'' and ''Rock and Roll Out!'') Transformers can be backed up. {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 22|The Decepticon Who Haunted Himself}}

==Animated==
[[Image:TFAnimated transformandrollout DEATH.jpg|left|150px|thumb|Death — the Optimus version of a power nap.]]
Severe physical damage does not kill Transformers in the ''Animated'' universe — [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]] survived despite being reduced to a severed head, while [[Lugnut]] and [[Blitzwing (Animated)|Blitzwing]] remained conscious despite being in bits {{storylink|Lost and Found (episode)|Lost and Found}} and the dismembered [[Soundwave (Animated)|Soundwave]] has been hinted to still function. {{storylink|Sound and Fury|Sound and Fury}}

Transformer death is, however, possible — a combination of physical damage and AllSpark energy outright killed [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus Prime]]. He was resurrected immediately afterward by the [[Key]], which, uniquely, channelled the energy of the AllSpark directly (as opposed to the energy stored inside it) for the purpose. {{storylink|Transform and Roll Out|Transform and Roll Out}}

Starscream also was killed {{storylink|Megatron Rising - Part 2}} only to be brought back to life by AllSpark energy. In his case, despite his Spark being extinguished, an AllSpark shard has embedded in his head and makes him immortal — kill him, and he'll just come back two minutes later. This has possibly made him the most tenacious (and annoying) Starscream to date. To [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]], anyway. {{storylink|Mission Accomplished|Mission Accomplished}}

[[Image:Afterburn_GOOOOOMPH.JPG|right|200px|thumb|But how can Bumblebee ''see it''?]]

Similarly, [[Omega Supreme (Animated)|Omega Supreme]] had died long ago saving Cybertron in the Great War, but with AllSpark energy he was able to be revived. {{storylink|A Bridge Too Close, Part II}} To prevent him dying, he was placed into modified stasis in his spaceship mode in order to stave off ''total'' death until a cure could be found. In an interesting look at [[Transformer funerary practices]], the Autobots then used him ''as'' a spaceship with seemingly no qualms. {{storylink|Transwarped}}

It is possible to be a living Transformer ''without'' a Spark. Two [[Starscream clone|of the Starscream clones]] lacked Sparks, as did [[Afterburn]] in spin-off material. When they ''die'', however, their being Spark-less means nobody cares. Nobody even commented on the demise of the clones {{storylink|A Fistful of Energon|A Fistful of Energon}} and both Megatron ''and'' Optimus outright stated that Afterburn wasn't a ''real'' person because he'd lacked a Spark {{storylink|Transformers Comic issue 24|Megatron's Revenge}}.

It is possible to avert death by transferring a spark into a [[blank]] [[protoform]]. A number of robots, however, view this as appalling as it sacrifices everything that protoform could have been. {{storylink|Five Servos of Doom}}

[[Lockdown]] has a habit of scavenging parts of his victims to use as "upgrades", a habit that sickens other Transformers.

==Footnotes==
<references />

==See also==

* [[Endspark]]

* [[Transformer funerary practices]]

* Those who die a lot
** [[The many deaths of Optimus Prime]]
** [[Dirge (G1)]] — the unlucky guy who gets [[:Image:Dirge DeathSerpentor.jpg|killed]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathSwarm.jpg|off]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathTimelines.jpg|in]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathUnicron.jpg|many]] [[:Image:Dirge DeathArmada.jpg|continuities]] (but less than [[Optimus Prime (disambiguation)|Optimus Prime]]).
** [[Quake (G1)|Quake]] — the unlucky guy who gets killed over and over in the same continuity, but doesn't seem to mind.
** [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] — the unlucky guy from ''[[Beast Wars (franchise)|Beast Wars]]'' who gets sliced, diced, and fricasseed every other episode only to be fully functional in time to get [[Slag (slang)|slagged]] ''again''.
** [[Cy-Kill (disambiguation)|Cy-Kill]], a Go-Bots character transferred to many Transformers comics just to be killed off violently. For no other reason than the lolz of ending his toyline, his universe, and finally his life...repeatedly.
** [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]] — the unlucky [[Prime (rank)|Prime]] [[:Image:Sentinel prime lou.jpg|who]] [[:Image:Sentinel prime dw.jpg|must]] [[Megatron Origin issue 4|die]].

* [[To sell toys]]

[[Category:Biology]]
[[Category:Transformer anatomy]]

Talk:Death

2009-06-14T00:14:56Z

Werthead: /* Some inaccuracies */

Erm... what does this article accomplish that isn't already covered by [[life cycle]] and [[to sell toys]]? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 16:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
: I'd have to give it an in-depth reading to answer that, which I really shouldn't while at work. Someone might want to compare the two... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Oh don't be so negative.

Also, what's the Z word joke about[[User:GWolfv2]]

::I believe it's a reference to Shaun of the Dead. --[[User:Professor Icepick|Professor Icepick]] 19:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

==Lists of Deaths==
I remember when I first discovered that Transformers had this huge online fandom there was a page that give a list of ALL the G1 Comic deaths. As I never completed the original run I was somewhat shocked to have seen Scorponok was killed. He was for such a long time the main Big Bad (arguably he was in that role longer than Megatron ever was), I could not believe it that TPTB killed him off.

Would there be scope for extending this article (or creating another) for a list of deaths by continuity? I appreciate that this wiki takes a strong stance against exhaustive lists, but how else could all the death information be collated? I imagine all of them are in the various character entries. However to use my example of 1st discovering online TF, I would not have found out that Scorponok died unless I specifically read his article. Even a link to such an page would probably do I suppose. [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 19:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

:My personal guide to the G1 comics lists every single Transformer death. I'd be happy to expand the article with such a list if others thought it acceptable.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 20:14, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

==Some inaccuracies==
The first verified Transformer deaths, aside from the nameless generics on Cybertron in the opening panels of issue 1, were the Man of Iron and Navigator in the ''Man of Iron'' UK story, and then Tornado and Quake in ''The Enemy Within'' that immediately followed it, both a long time before ''The Smelting Pool''. The first verified human death was the driver of a car run off the road by the crazed Autobot Brawn, also in ''Enemy Within''. His car slammed into another parked car complete with an explosion of Michael Bay proportions and a scream of "NOOOOOOOOO!!!" which ended suddenly. Also, Starscream blew apart human jet fighters in the same story.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 20:14, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

Talk:Death

2009-06-14T00:14:25Z

Werthead:

Erm... what does this article accomplish that isn't already covered by [[life cycle]] and [[to sell toys]]? -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 16:09, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
: I'd have to give it an in-depth reading to answer that, which I really shouldn't while at work. Someone might want to compare the two... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
:::Oh don't be so negative.

Also, what's the Z word joke about[[User:GWolfv2]]

::I believe it's a reference to Shaun of the Dead. --[[User:Professor Icepick|Professor Icepick]] 19:33, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

==Lists of Deaths==
I remember when I first discovered that Transformers had this huge online fandom there was a page that give a list of ALL the G1 Comic deaths. As I never completed the original run I was somewhat shocked to have seen Scorponok was killed. He was for such a long time the main Big Bad (arguably he was in that role longer than Megatron ever was), I could not believe it that TPTB killed him off.

Would there be scope for extending this article (or creating another) for a list of deaths by continuity? I appreciate that this wiki takes a strong stance against exhaustive lists, but how else could all the death information be collated? I imagine all of them are in the various character entries. However to use my example of 1st discovering online TF, I would not have found out that Scorponok died unless I specifically read his article. Even a link to such an page would probably do I suppose. [[User:Drmick|Drmick]] 19:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

:My personal guide to the G1 comics lists every single Transformer death. I'd be happy to expand the article with such a list if others thought it acceptable.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 20:14, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

==Some inaccuracies==
The first verified Transformer deaths, aside from the nameless generics on Cybertron in the opening panels of issue 1, were the Man of Iron and Navigator in the ''Man of Iron'' UK story, and then Tornado and Quake in ''The Enemy Within'' that immediately followed it, both a long time before ''The Smelting Pool''. The first verified human death was the driver of a car run off the road by the crazed Autobot Brawn, also in ''Enemy Within''. His car slammed into another parked car complete with an explosion of Michael Bay proportions and a scream of "NOOOOOOOOO!!!" which ended suddenly. Also, Starscream blew apart fighters in the same story.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 20:14, 13 June 2009 (EDT)

Talk:The Transformers (Marvel comic)

2009-04-27T03:07:46Z

Werthead: /* Annual years and releases */

==Issue Numbers, Issue Titles==
This is a very useful page, what with having all the issues linked by number. Unfortunately, it's also a somewhat difficult page to find. Few if any of the individual issues link back to it. Instead, they link back to http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Marvel_US_issues , which lo and behold doesn't list the issue numbers.

So if you're browsing along, and suddenly find yourself on, say, [[Trial by Fire!]], good luck finding the page about the next issue. Shouldn't the issue titles in the category also mention a number, and shouldn't there be a sequential listing that all the issues link back to?

OR OR OR, as Sipher just mentioned, there's a "Next issue/Previous issue" box floating around on a few issues' pages. That'd at least provide continuity if it got worked onto all the pages. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 07:14, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

== ==

(snipping a lot of stuff that's probably not of any further interest. People can get them back out with "history" if they disagree....)

I wonder if, especially for UK comics, we should change the links so that each UK issue links to a separate "issue" page, with the separate stories being linked as they currently are (all current comic pages are organized by story title). Besides the "back-up" features you mention, later UK TF comics often have TWO TF stories running concurrently, and the current system does not account for this well. But I'm not the best person to suggest an alternative. My expertise is in the US comic, which tended to have just one story per issue, and little else. The US comic even tended to break up story arcs into individual titles for each issue more often than not....

Shouldn't we have talked about merging the UK and US comics into one entry before actually doing it?....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 23:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

:Should we have? It's easily fixed if that's deemed not acceptable. The real big change here was making [[Generation 1 (comic)]] be a disambiguation rather than blurb on the Marvel US comic, because that is most certainly ''not'' the only Generation 1 comic, and it's probably not even the one that most people would be interested in.
:I decided to just fold the content in that article into Marvel UK, because do we ''really'' need two seperate pages on the two Marvel comics? If we actually do get enough content to warrant two articles, it's easy enough to split the two. But like I said, the major change her isn't the merge, it's putting a proper disambiguation page at the G1 comic link.
:Apologies for the alleged "UK bias" in the little blurb. I've never actually read any significant part of either Marvel comic, and know next to nothing about either, so I can say that definitely was not intended. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 00:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not a big deal to have them merged, and the way it was done (leaving the US and UK sections separate within the same page) I can live with. I'm absolutely opposed to folding all the US stuff into the UK page, though, as I've said elsewhere. I do ''not'' see these two as the same entity, but rather as two distinct, yet often similar and occasionally overlapping, entities. I just would have liked to be aware of the change beforehand, is all.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 00:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I've written a bit more on the UK comic, trying to explain its format and its relationship with the US comic. I think I'm right in identifying the 'Perchance to Dream' storyline as the point where US and UK separate, but I can't remember when the original UK material dried up. Was it around #290? --[[User:Tribimat|Tribimat]] 02:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:Actually, I see it differently. I don't see the US and the UK as "separating," because I see them as ''already separate.'' They may look the same in many cases, but they're separate. This is borne out by the few, but significant, differences between them, such as how Bumblebee is turned into Goldbug. Clearly, there is room for differences of opinion on how individuals look at the canon, but the fact that there ARE these distinctions are part of why I oppose any attempt to force US stories ''into'' the UK continuity on this Wiki, which should essentially present the facts as they appear. (Incidentally, the way you describe the UK version in the actual article is fine with me)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 03:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Seperating the UK and US comics would give legitimate space to discuss the various special features the UK comic had which had no counterpart in the US comic. Things like the letters pages answered by Transformer characters, fact files (which, in the early days weren't straight reprints of Transformers: The Universe), back up strips, competitions, humourous strips (Robo Capers, Matt and the Cat, Combat Colin - some of which had directly Transformer-related content). Sorry, can't sign this comment as I'm just a visitor.

==How to deal with UK issues with multiple stories==
I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with the issues in the UK (especially around the late-200s) that have more than one story contained therein. The current set-up probably won't continue to work for these issues. How's this for an option?

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">Marvel UK issues (lead stories):</font>'''
|-
|| [[Kings of the Wild Frontier|#284]] | [[Kings of the Wild Frontier|#285]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#286]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#287]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#288]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#289]]
|}

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">Marvel UK issues (back-up stories):</font>'''
|-
|| [[Assassins|#284]] | [[External Forces|#285]] | [[The Lesser Evil|#286]] | [[Inside Story|#287]] | [[Frontline|#288]] | [[End of the Road! (UK)|#289]]
|}
Note that the back-up to UK #289 is a different "End of the Road" than US #80 (Which is actually entitled "The End of the Road," which may or may not seem significant.)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
: Looks good to me. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 22:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

: Is there a way to get all information on a particular issue onto an entry for that issue? For instance, issue 213 will have a "US Story" link that refers to the relevant US strip (which will be identical for 214-216), a "UK Story" section that gives a full account of the UK strip (in this instance, I think it's Megatron's return to Cybertron with Ravage), and a "Back-up Story" section that gives a brief account of the back-up strip. I realise that the back-up stories in most cases aren't TF-related, but they were an integral part of the UK comic experience. I'll try to put an example entry together this week and you can see what you think.

: Incidentally, I take the point about the UK and US continuities not being the same. I'm not at all hung up on "canon" and am much more interested in detailing the things as stories. I just wanted to say that #255-60 is where the two parallel continuities go in completely and irreconcilably different directions. At some point I'd also like to write something about how Furman used his knowledge of what was happening in the US stories to foreshadow later events - the story 'Prey' and the return to Cybertron (UK #97-104) is a classic example, featuring both Optimus Prime's "death" and Megatron's madness.

: Now that I think about it, the letters page was often used as a vehicle for explaining how the US and UK stories fitted together. They should be an excellent resource for this sort of thing. When I've got access to the original issues again, I'll see what comes up.--[[User:Tribimat|Tribimat]] 00:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

::Actually, my preference (other things being equal) would be to have the comics entries organized by issue number, but it was decided early on that it would be redundant to have separate pages for issues of the UK comic that were largely already duplicated on the US page for the similar story. (US stories tend to be 1-per-issue. This not often the case in the UK comic.) A compromise position was to make the pages story-specific, rather than issue-specific. This is working for now, but as I've already noted, appears as though it may be unwieldy as we look at UK issues in the future. I could do this issue-by-issue for the entire US series with no trouble at all, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that the US is the only, or even the "most correct," way of looking at it. I've argued fairly strongly for US comic integrity, but have tried to stop short of giving it "supremacy." It's just that the US comic is what I know. I know it fairly well. But I don't have the background to say much about the UK comic beyond what I know from the Internet.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 02:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I've come across some issues of the UK comic that have two TF-related stories, but the "lead" story is just a reprint, while the "back-up" black-and-white story is new. (So far, I've only put links for #221-228 that fit this description) Under the rubric I proposed above, I've felt compelled to make the link in the main (i.e. "lead story") UK chart go to the reprinted story, while the new story is relegated to the "back-up" chart. This technically seems to work, but seems rather unsatisfying. Thoughts?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 20:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

:I've decided that it would be simpler to only put 2nd stories in the bottom grid in the cases where one of the two TF stories contained has not already been printed in the UK previously. This means that some "back up" black and whites are actually in the top grid, but since these tend to be the stories featured on the front cover (since the "main" color story is a reprint), that makes more sense, I think.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 02:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

==The UK Annuals==
Hi. I was just wondering if there should be a space on this page for the UK Annuals and if so what format it should take? There were a couple of annual stories that linked heavily into the main UK strip so it seems like something that is needed for the sake of completion.

As each annual contains several stories and there are only a few of them I was going to suggest a seperate table for each annual with links to individual stories. Does anyone have any opinions/guidance on this?--[[User:Omnisvalidus|Omnisvalidus]] 18:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

:As nobody has comented on this I have added the annuals in. [[User:Omnisvalidus|Omnisvalidus]] 18:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

==Annual years and releases==

(I'm raising this here as there isn't a generic article for the annuals and it could affect all of them.)

It's my recollection that the annuals released 1985-1987 were always referenced as being the annual for the year of publication (e.g. issue #65, printed in 1986, has a caption referring to "this year's annual"), but from 1988 onwards the annuals are referred to as the next's years, even though the books themselves don't give specific dates (whereas other Marvel UK annuals for Action Force, Thundercats and Visionaries released in 1988 all explicitly say they're the 1989 annual). This has led to quite a bit of confusion over the years as to which annual is which. [[Transformers Annual 1986#Items of Note]] currently states:

''This was the first annual, published for Christmas 1985. Due to the 1985 print date in the cover it is frequently mistakenly referred to as the 1985 annual, however annuals are always printed at the end of the year before.''

Whilst this is the main practice, is there any evidence it specifically applied to Marvel UK in 1985-1987?

Also most of the annuals state they were released in December, but I recall the announcements and adverts for them tended to be in the summer. Further to this the annual released in 1987 is explicitly followed up in stories printed that autumn (issues 135-138) which would have been awkward if the annual wasn't yet on sale. [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] 21:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

:The annuals usually appeared in the shops in August or September, believe it or not, so the 1987 annual appeared before ''Grudge Match'' did, and only a few weeks after ''Fire on High'' (the story to which it concluded). What confuses the issue for a lot of people who were kids at the time is that traditionally they didn't get the annuals until Christmas, whilst the comics seemed to often assume that kids would rush out and get them the second they came out. As for which album came out in which year, going by the copyright date seems to be a fairly accurate way of doing it, as that refers to the year in which it was physically published.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 23:07, 26 April 2009 (EDT)

==Somes changes to the UK section==

I adjusted the UK section with more accurate information on the comic's format changes, which were more complex than originally stated. Most notably, the comic returned to a fortnightly schedule from issue 309 onwards, which is also when they ditched the three-strip structure and returned to the 'classic' format of one Transformers story and one back-up strip. Since I still have almost the whole run of Transformers UK comics in fairly good condition (issues #24-#332), I might take a look at going through the UK comics and adding in any missing information. On the issue of how 'canon' the UK/USA intermingling of stories are, my assessment is that the combined UK/US run is the 'correct' one, given that the later Furman comics refer to events in the UK continuity (Deathbringer, Xaaron, the UK 'creation myth' which appeared many years before in the US etc), with a nod at the headache-inducing Goldbug-creation issue.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 21:58, 26 April 2009 (EDT)

Talk:The Transformers (Marvel comic)

2009-04-27T01:58:14Z

Werthead:

==Issue Numbers, Issue Titles==
This is a very useful page, what with having all the issues linked by number. Unfortunately, it's also a somewhat difficult page to find. Few if any of the individual issues link back to it. Instead, they link back to http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Marvel_US_issues , which lo and behold doesn't list the issue numbers.

So if you're browsing along, and suddenly find yourself on, say, [[Trial by Fire!]], good luck finding the page about the next issue. Shouldn't the issue titles in the category also mention a number, and shouldn't there be a sequential listing that all the issues link back to?

OR OR OR, as Sipher just mentioned, there's a "Next issue/Previous issue" box floating around on a few issues' pages. That'd at least provide continuity if it got worked onto all the pages. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] 07:14, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

== ==

(snipping a lot of stuff that's probably not of any further interest. People can get them back out with "history" if they disagree....)

I wonder if, especially for UK comics, we should change the links so that each UK issue links to a separate "issue" page, with the separate stories being linked as they currently are (all current comic pages are organized by story title). Besides the "back-up" features you mention, later UK TF comics often have TWO TF stories running concurrently, and the current system does not account for this well. But I'm not the best person to suggest an alternative. My expertise is in the US comic, which tended to have just one story per issue, and little else. The US comic even tended to break up story arcs into individual titles for each issue more often than not....

Shouldn't we have talked about merging the UK and US comics into one entry before actually doing it?....--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 23:35, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

:Should we have? It's easily fixed if that's deemed not acceptable. The real big change here was making [[Generation 1 (comic)]] be a disambiguation rather than blurb on the Marvel US comic, because that is most certainly ''not'' the only Generation 1 comic, and it's probably not even the one that most people would be interested in.
:I decided to just fold the content in that article into Marvel UK, because do we ''really'' need two seperate pages on the two Marvel comics? If we actually do get enough content to warrant two articles, it's easy enough to split the two. But like I said, the major change her isn't the merge, it's putting a proper disambiguation page at the G1 comic link.
:Apologies for the alleged "UK bias" in the little blurb. I've never actually read any significant part of either Marvel comic, and know next to nothing about either, so I can say that definitely was not intended. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 00:24, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

It's not a big deal to have them merged, and the way it was done (leaving the US and UK sections separate within the same page) I can live with. I'm absolutely opposed to folding all the US stuff into the UK page, though, as I've said elsewhere. I do ''not'' see these two as the same entity, but rather as two distinct, yet often similar and occasionally overlapping, entities. I just would have liked to be aware of the change beforehand, is all.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 00:46, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I've written a bit more on the UK comic, trying to explain its format and its relationship with the US comic. I think I'm right in identifying the 'Perchance to Dream' storyline as the point where US and UK separate, but I can't remember when the original UK material dried up. Was it around #290? --[[User:Tribimat|Tribimat]] 02:08, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

:Actually, I see it differently. I don't see the US and the UK as "separating," because I see them as ''already separate.'' They may look the same in many cases, but they're separate. This is borne out by the few, but significant, differences between them, such as how Bumblebee is turned into Goldbug. Clearly, there is room for differences of opinion on how individuals look at the canon, but the fact that there ARE these distinctions are part of why I oppose any attempt to force US stories ''into'' the UK continuity on this Wiki, which should essentially present the facts as they appear. (Incidentally, the way you describe the UK version in the actual article is fine with me)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 03:34, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Seperating the UK and US comics would give legitimate space to discuss the various special features the UK comic had which had no counterpart in the US comic. Things like the letters pages answered by Transformer characters, fact files (which, in the early days weren't straight reprints of Transformers: The Universe), back up strips, competitions, humourous strips (Robo Capers, Matt and the Cat, Combat Colin - some of which had directly Transformer-related content). Sorry, can't sign this comment as I'm just a visitor.

==How to deal with UK issues with multiple stories==
I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with the issues in the UK (especially around the late-200s) that have more than one story contained therein. The current set-up probably won't continue to work for these issues. How's this for an option?

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">Marvel UK issues (lead stories):</font>'''
|-
|| [[Kings of the Wild Frontier|#284]] | [[Kings of the Wild Frontier|#285]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#286]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#287]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#288]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#289]]
|}

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">Marvel UK issues (back-up stories):</font>'''
|-
|| [[Assassins|#284]] | [[External Forces|#285]] | [[The Lesser Evil|#286]] | [[Inside Story|#287]] | [[Frontline|#288]] | [[End of the Road! (UK)|#289]]
|}
Note that the back-up to UK #289 is a different "End of the Road" than US #80 (Which is actually entitled "The End of the Road," which may or may not seem significant.)--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 18:48, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
: Looks good to me. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 22:18, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

: Is there a way to get all information on a particular issue onto an entry for that issue? For instance, issue 213 will have a "US Story" link that refers to the relevant US strip (which will be identical for 214-216), a "UK Story" section that gives a full account of the UK strip (in this instance, I think it's Megatron's return to Cybertron with Ravage), and a "Back-up Story" section that gives a brief account of the back-up strip. I realise that the back-up stories in most cases aren't TF-related, but they were an integral part of the UK comic experience. I'll try to put an example entry together this week and you can see what you think.

: Incidentally, I take the point about the UK and US continuities not being the same. I'm not at all hung up on "canon" and am much more interested in detailing the things as stories. I just wanted to say that #255-60 is where the two parallel continuities go in completely and irreconcilably different directions. At some point I'd also like to write something about how Furman used his knowledge of what was happening in the US stories to foreshadow later events - the story 'Prey' and the return to Cybertron (UK #97-104) is a classic example, featuring both Optimus Prime's "death" and Megatron's madness.

: Now that I think about it, the letters page was often used as a vehicle for explaining how the US and UK stories fitted together. They should be an excellent resource for this sort of thing. When I've got access to the original issues again, I'll see what comes up.--[[User:Tribimat|Tribimat]] 00:22, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

::Actually, my preference (other things being equal) would be to have the comics entries organized by issue number, but it was decided early on that it would be redundant to have separate pages for issues of the UK comic that were largely already duplicated on the US page for the similar story. (US stories tend to be 1-per-issue. This not often the case in the UK comic.) A compromise position was to make the pages story-specific, rather than issue-specific. This is working for now, but as I've already noted, appears as though it may be unwieldy as we look at UK issues in the future. I could do this issue-by-issue for the entire US series with no trouble at all, but I'm not arrogant enough to think that the US is the only, or even the "most correct," way of looking at it. I've argued fairly strongly for US comic integrity, but have tried to stop short of giving it "supremacy." It's just that the US comic is what I know. I know it fairly well. But I don't have the background to say much about the UK comic beyond what I know from the Internet.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 02:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I've come across some issues of the UK comic that have two TF-related stories, but the "lead" story is just a reprint, while the "back-up" black-and-white story is new. (So far, I've only put links for #221-228 that fit this description) Under the rubric I proposed above, I've felt compelled to make the link in the main (i.e. "lead story") UK chart go to the reprinted story, while the new story is relegated to the "back-up" chart. This technically seems to work, but seems rather unsatisfying. Thoughts?--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 20:41, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

:I've decided that it would be simpler to only put 2nd stories in the bottom grid in the cases where one of the two TF stories contained has not already been printed in the UK previously. This means that some "back up" black and whites are actually in the top grid, but since these tend to be the stories featured on the front cover (since the "main" color story is a reprint), that makes more sense, I think.--[[User:G.B. Blackrock|G.B. Blackrock]] 02:49, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

==The UK Annuals==
Hi. I was just wondering if there should be a space on this page for the UK Annuals and if so what format it should take? There were a couple of annual stories that linked heavily into the main UK strip so it seems like something that is needed for the sake of completion.

As each annual contains several stories and there are only a few of them I was going to suggest a seperate table for each annual with links to individual stories. Does anyone have any opinions/guidance on this?--[[User:Omnisvalidus|Omnisvalidus]] 18:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

:As nobody has comented on this I have added the annuals in. [[User:Omnisvalidus|Omnisvalidus]] 18:33, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

==Annual years and releases==

(I'm raising this here as there isn't a generic article for the annuals and it could affect all of them.)

It's my recollection that the annuals released 1985-1987 were always referenced as being the annual for the year of publication (e.g. issue #65, printed in 1986, has a caption referring to "this year's annual"), but from 1988 onwards the annuals are referred to as the next's years, even though the books themselves don't give specific dates (whereas other Marvel UK annuals for Action Force, Thundercats and Visionaries released in 1988 all explicitly say they're the 1989 annual). This has led to quite a bit of confusion over the years as to which annual is which. [[Transformers Annual 1986#Items of Note]] currently states:

''This was the first annual, published for Christmas 1985. Due to the 1985 print date in the cover it is frequently mistakenly referred to as the 1985 annual, however annuals are always printed at the end of the year before.''

Whilst this is the main practice, is there any evidence it specifically applied to Marvel UK in 1985-1987?

Also most of the annuals state they were released in December, but I recall the announcements and adverts for them tended to be in the summer. Further to this the annual released in 1987 is explicitly followed up in stories printed that autumn (issues 135-138) which would have been awkward if the annual wasn't yet on sale. [[User:Timrollpickering|Timrollpickering]] 21:48, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

==Somes changes to the UK section==

I adjusted the UK section with more accurate information on the comic's format changes, which were more complex than originally stated. Most notably, the comic returned to a fortnightly schedule from issue 309 onwards, which is also when they ditched the three-strip structure and returned to the 'classic' format of one Transformers story and one back-up strip. Since I still have almost the whole run of Transformers UK comics in fairly good condition (issues #24-#332), I might take a look at going through the UK comics and adding in any missing information. On the issue of how 'canon' the UK/USA intermingling of stories are, my assessment is that the combined UK/US run is the 'correct' one, given that the later Furman comics refer to events in the UK continuity (Deathbringer, Xaaron, the UK 'creation myth' which appeared many years before in the US etc), with a nod at the headache-inducing Goldbug-creation issue.--[[User:Werthead|Werthead]] 21:58, 26 April 2009 (EDT)

The Transformers (Marvel comic)

2009-04-27T01:47:24Z

Werthead: /* Publication and format */

{{disambig2|the [[Marvel Comics]] series|other uses of ''The Transformers''|Transformers (disambiguation)}}

{{nav-G1}}

{{bigquote|Four million years ago, they came from '''Cybertron''', a world composed entirely of machinery... a world torn by an age-old war between the heroic '''Autobots''' and the evil '''Decepticons'''. These incredibly powerful living robots, capable of converting themselves into land and air vehicles, weapons and other mechanical forms, continue their conflict here on '''Earth'''. They are...'''THE TRANSFORMERS'''|Marvel US introductory blurb}}
{{-}}

[[Image:MarvelUS-01.jpg|right|250px|thumb|The heroic Autobots fight to crush Earth's highways.]]
'''''The Transformers''''', the monthly comic book published in the U.S. by [[Marvel Comics]], was the very first original fiction to feature the famous robots in disguise, as well as the longest-running. It started life as a four-issue, bimonthly limited series in 1984, but proved so popular that it continued publication as an ongoing monthly until spring of 1991. The series ultimately reached 80 issues and spun off several miniseries.

The series established the [[Marvel Comics continuity]], which would form the basis for several successor stories over the years.

Nearly all of the U.S. stories were later published by Marvel UK, along with new stories that fit between the gaps of the U.S. tales. See [[#Marvel UK|Marvel UK]] below.

==Marvel U.S.==
{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">Marvel US issues:</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[The Transformers (comic issue)|#1]] | [[Power Play!|#2]] | [[Prisoner of War!|#3]] | [[The Last Stand|#4]] | [[The New Order|#5]] | [[The Worse of Two Evils!|#6]] | [[Warrior School!|#7]] | [[Repeat Performance!|#8]] | [[DIS-Integrated Circuits!|#9]] | [[The Next Best Thing to Being There!|#10]] | [[Brainstorm!|#11]] | [[Prime Time!|#12]] | [[Shooting Star!|#13]] | [[Rock and Roll-Out!|#14]] | [[I, Robot-Master!|#15]] | [[Plight of the Bumblebee!|#16]] | [[The Smelting Pool!|#17]] | [[The Bridge to Nowhere!|#18]] | [[Command Performances!|#19]] | [[Showdown!|#20]] | [[Aerialbots over America!|#21]] | [[Heavy Traffic!|#22]] | [[Decepticon Graffiti!|#23]] | [[Afterdeath!|#24]] | [[Gone but Not Forgotten!|#25]] | [[Funeral for a Friend!|#26]] | [[King of the Hill!|#27]] | [[Mechanical Difficulties!|#28]] | [[Crater Critters|#29]] | [[The Cure!|#30]] | [[Buster Witwicky and the Car Wash of Doom|#31]] | [[Used Autobots|#32]] | [[Man of Iron!|#33]] | [[Man of Iron!|#34]] | [[Child's Play (comic issue)|#35]] | [[Spacehikers!|#36]] | [[Toy Soldiers!|#37]] | [[Trial by Fire!|#38]] | [[The Desert Island of Space!|#39]] | [[Pretender to the Throne!|#40]] | [[Totaled!|#41]] | [[People Power!|#42]] | [[The Big Broadcast of 2006!|#43]] | [[The Cosmic Carnival!|#44]] | [[Monstercon from Mars!|#45]] | [[Ca$h and Car-nage!|#46]] | [[Club Con!|#47]] | [[The Flames of Boltax!|#48]] | [[Cold War!|#49]] | [[Dark Star|#50]] | [[The Man in the Machine!|#51]] | [[Guess Who the Mecannibals Are Having for Dinner?|#52]] | [[Recipe for Disaster!|#53]] | [[King Con!|#54]] | [[The Interplanetary Wrestling Championship!|#55]] | [[Back from the Dead!|#56]] | [[The Resurrection Gambit!|#57]] | [[All the Familiar Faces!|#58]] | [[Skin Deep|#59]] | [[Yesterday's Heroes!|#60]] | [[Primal Scream|#61]] | [[Bird of Prey!|#62]] | [[Kings of the Wild Frontier|#63]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#64]] | [[Dark Creation|#65]] | [[All Fall Down (comic issue)|#66]] | [[Rhythms of Darkness!|#67]] | [[The Human Factor!|#68]] | [[Eye of the Storm!|#69]] | [[The Price of Life!|#70]] | [[Surrender!|#71]] | [[...All This and Civil War 2|#72]] | [[Out of Time!|#73]] | [[The Void! (US)|#74]] | [[On the Edge of Extinction!|#75]] | [[Still Life!|#76]] | [[Exodus!|#77]] | [[A Savage Circle|#78]] | [[The Last Autobot?|#79]] | [[End of the Road! (US)|#80]]
|}

===Related mini-series===
* ''[[G.I. Joe and the Transformers]]''
* ''[[Headmasters (comic)|Headmasters]]''
* ''[[Transformers Universe (Marvel comic)|Transformers Universe]]''
* ''[[Transformers: The Movie (Marvel Comics)|Transformers: The Movie]]'' (Though published by Marvel in the US and UK, is only related in the UK canon)

===Overview===
[[Image:Autobotline.gif|left|250px|thumb|After watching traffic reports for an hour, they finally decided to just stay home.]]
The story begins with a brief history of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] and its [[Great War (G1)|civil war]], which eventually causes the planet to become lost in space. Battling aboard the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], the original 28 characters crash-land on [[Earth]] four million years ago and awaken in the (then-)present day of 1984. The quest for [[Energon (G1)|fuel]] becomes their initial goal, driving the first several issues.

As the first fiction in the entire [[Generation 1 (franchise)|franchise]], the initial issues of ''Transformers'' were breaking completely new ground. Early issues contain a variety of plot points and conventions, some of which would go on to shape the very mythos... and others that would fall by the wayside, forgotten and hilariously quaint. The concept of the life-giving [[Matrix of Leadership|Creation Matrix]] is a good example of the former group; "[[Atechnogenesis|naturally occurring gears, levers and pulleys]]" comes to mind for the latter.

[[Image:Newyorkunderbase.jpg|right|150px|thumb|With a single wave of Starscream's hand, Hound, Bluestreak, Mirage, Hoist, Brawn, and Gears cease to occupy valuable page space!]]
The book soon built its own elaborate and wide-reaching universe, including hundreds of characters—[[Transformer]]s, [[human]]s, [[alien]]s—on Earth, Cybertron, and beyond. Late in the series, a long-running plot brought in the sinister menace of [[Unicron]], giving him a backstory and build-up that for many fans surpassed his original appearance in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'' for storytelling and gravitas. This backstory would eventually go on to eclipse the origin given in the [[Generation 1 (cartoon)|cartoon]].

Because it was a book intended [[to sell toys]], ''Transformers'' featured an ever-rotating cast. New Transformers were often hastily brought in to meet the demands of [[Hasbro]], and older "product" was often swept aside or killed off ''en masse'' in [[Dark Star|epic, climactic battles]].

After some troubled times and steadily declining readership, the series was finally canceled at issue #80. A combination of factors was likely responsible: the Transformers toyline had become yesterday's fad, the core readership had grown older and moved on, and Hasbro seems to have pulled the plug.

Several subsequent series would build upon the series; see ''[[Marvel Comics continuity]]'' for more information.
{{-}}

===Creative team===
[[Image:MarvelUS-75.jpg|left|150px|thumb|He's authorized to devour anyone not in the current product line.]]
The book featured two primary writers: [[Bob Budiansky]] edited the original 4-part limited series and wrote the book from issue #5 to issue #55. After that, [[Simon Furman]], already heavily experienced from his work on the UK book, took up the reins until the book was cancelled at issue #80.

''Transformers'' is a bit notorious for wild swings in writing quality, as serious plots alternated with such strange concepts as [[The Interplanetary Wrestling Championship!|Micromaster wrestling]] and [[Ca$h and Car-nage!|ridiculous bounty hunters]]. Some of this may be attributed to Bob Budiansky's eventual burn-out; after years of having to warp his stories around to meet the latest toy-appearance demands from Hasbro, his later writing on the book showed a decline in quality. Among Transfans, he is sometimes remembered unfavourably because of this period, perhaps unfairly so considering his fundamental role in shaping the Transformers universe and most of its characters, as well as some of the book's [[Warrior School!|most gripping early stories]]. Still, even such oddball stories as "[[Buster Witwicky and the Car Wash of Doom]]" and "[[Guess Who the Mecannibals Are Having for Dinner?]]" have both their merits and their fans.

Budiansky himself proposed that Simon Furman take over as the U.S. series writer.<ref name="steveo otfcc2004">[http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~sstoneb/tf/tidbits/otfcc2004.txt Steve-o's OTFCC 2004 notes]</ref> With the changeover, the stories took on a more serious tone, relying on character conflict more than outlandish plot devices. Many fans regard Furman's run on the original book as one of the high points of all Transformers fiction.

The comic was written in "Marvel Style", where the writer gives the artist a plot outline instead of a full script. The artist then lays out the pages himself; afterward the writer comes back in and scripts the dialog based on the artist's work. This approach gives the artist a larger role in telling the story than simply drawing what the writer tells them to.<ref name="steveo otfcc2004" />

A number of artists worked on ''Transformers'', but the most frequent pencilers included [[Frank Springer]], [[Don Perlin]], [[Jose Delbo]], [[Geoff Senior]], and [[Andrew Wildman]]. Also of particular note is colorist [[Nel Yomtov]], who colored every single issue of the book, as well as all of the related mini-series.
{{-}}

===Publication and format===
As ''The Transformers'' title began life as a limited series, it was subject to the conventions Marvel had established for limited series at the time of its publication. "Standard" Marvel comics released concurrently in 1984 cost 60 cents and were printed on newsprint; in contrast, ''The Transformers'' sold for 75 cents and was printed on a whiter, higher-quality stock (for the time) known as "[[Mando paper]]".

Evidently considered a "deluxe format" book by Marvel, ''Transformers'' continued to be printed on Mando paper even after it became an ongoing series. <ref>''Marvel Age'' #23, November 1984</ref> It also remained at 75 cents—at least until [[King of the Hill!|issue 28]], when the price of the book rose to 1 dollar. With the exception of the double-sized [[Dark Star|issue 50]] and [[On the Edge of Extinction!|issue 75]], which were both priced at $1.50, ''The Transformers'' would remain at 1 dollar for the remainder of its original run.
{{-}}

===Cover dates===
There is some confusion over when issues first appeared, due to changing practices regarding the cover dates. When the comic began in 1984, Marvel issues were normally cover dated four months ahead of their going on sale. This was partially a hangover from the days of fierce newsstand competition when each company tried to make its comics look newer than its rivals and partially a mechanism to compensate for slower distribution on newsstands and overseas sales.

As a result of this, although [[The Transformers (comic issue)|issue #1]] is cover dated September, it went on sale in May. This is supported by the first Usenet post about Transformers which was posted by Ted Nolan to net.comics on May 22 1984.<ref>Ted Nolan, "[http://groups.google.com/group/net.comics/msg/1cdaf7df610e0376?dmode=source&hl=en Year's worst?] in net.comics, 22-May-84 02:07:22 EDT</ref>

In 1989, Marvel decided to rationalize things by moving to a system where the cover date was only two months in advance. In order to achieve this, issues released in August 1989 have the cover date "Mid November", those in September 1989 have "December" and those in October "Mid December". The relevant ''Transformers'' issues were [[Skin Deep|#59]], [[Yesterday's Heroes!|#60]] and [[Primal Scream|#61]].
{{-}}

==Marvel UK==
'''Marvel UK''' produced a G1 comic which ran for 332 issues, reprinting the American stories and adding in many new stories built around them.

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">Marvel UK issues:</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[The Transformers (comic issue)|#1]] | [[The Transformers (comic issue)|#2]] | [[Power Play!|#3]] | [[Power Play!|#4]] | [[Prisoner of War!|#5]] | [[Prisoner of War!|#6]] | [[The Last Stand|#7]] | [[The Last Stand|#8]] | [[Man of Iron!|#9]] | [[Man of Iron!|#10]] | [[Man of Iron!|#11]] | [[Man of Iron!|#12]] | [[The Enemy Within!|#13]] | [[The Enemy Within!|#14]] | [[The Enemy Within!|#15]] | [[The Enemy Within!|#16]] | [[The Enemy Within!|#17]] | [[Raiders of the Last Ark|#18]] | [[Raiders of the Last Ark|#19]] | [[Raiders of the Last Ark|#20]] | [[Raiders of the Last Ark|#21]] | [[The New Order|#22]] | [[The New Order|#23]] | [[The Worse of Two Evils!|#24]] | [[The Worse of Two Evils!|#25]] | [[Warrior School!|#26]] | [[Repeat Performance!|#27]] | [[Repeat Performance!|#28]] | [[Decepticon Dam-Busters!|#29]] | [[Decepticon Dam-Busters!|#30]] | [[The Wrath of Guardian!|#31]] | [[The Wrath of Grimlock!|#32]] | [[DIS-Integrated Circuits!|#33]] | [[DIS-Integrated Circuits!|#34]] | [[The Next Best Thing to Being There!|#35]] | [[The Next Best Thing to Being There!|#36]] | [[Brainstorm!|#37]] | [[Brainstorm!|#38]] | [[Prime Time!|#39]] | [[Prime Time!|#40]] | [[Christmas Breaker!|#41]] | [[Crisis of Command!|#42]] | [[Crisis of Command!|#43]] | [[Crisis of Command!|#44]] | [[The Icarus Theory|#45]] | [[The Icarus Theory|#46]] | [[Dinobot Hunt!|#47]] | [[Dinobot Hunt!|#48]] | [[Dinobot Hunt!|#49]] | [[Dinobot Hunt!|#50]] | [[Shooting Star!|#51]] | [[Shooting Star!|#52]] | [[Rock and Roll-Out!|#53]] | [[Rock and Roll-Out!|#54]] | [[I, Robot-Master!|#55]] | [[I, Robot-Master!|#56]] | [[Plight of the Bumblebee!|#57]] | [[Plight of the Bumblebee!|#58]] | [[Robot Buster!|#59]] | [[Robot Buster!|#60]] | [[Devastation Derby!|#61]] | [[Devastation Derby!|#62]] | [[Second Generation!|#63]] | [[Second Generation!|#64]] | [[Second Generation!|#65]] | [[The Smelting Pool!|#66]] | [[The Smelting Pool!|#67]] | [[The Bridge to Nowhere!|#68]] | [[The Bridge to Nowhere!|#69]] | [[Command Performances!|#70]] | [[Command Performances!|#71]] | [[Showdown!|#72]] | [[Showdown!|#73]] | [[In the National Interest|#74]] | [[In the National Interest|#75]] | [[In the National Interest|#76]] | [[In the National Interest|#77]] | [[Target: 2006|#78]] | [[Target: 2006|#79]] | [[Target: 2006|#80]] | [[Target: 2006|#81]] | [[Target: 2006|#82]] | [[Target: 2006|#83]] | [[Target: 2006|#84]] | [[Target: 2006|#85]] | [[Target: 2006|#86]] | [[Target: 2006|#87]] | [[Target: 2006|#88]] | [[Aerialbots over America!|#89]] | [[Aerialbots over America!|#90]] | [[Heavy Traffic!|#91]] | [[Heavy Traffic!|#92]] | [[The Gift|#93]] | [[Decepticon Graffiti!|#94]] | [[Decepticon Graffiti!|#95]] | [[Prey!|#96]] | [[Prey!|#97]] | [[The Harder They Die!|#98]] | [[Under Fire!|#99]] | [[Distant Thunder!|#100]] | [[Fallen Angel|#101]] | [[Fallen Angel|#102]] | [[Resurrection!|#103]] | [[Resurrection!|#104]] | [[Afterdeath!|#105]] | [[Afterdeath!|#106]] | [[Gone But Not Forgotten!|#107]] | [[Gone But Not Forgotten!|#108]] | [[Funeral for a Friend!|#109]] | [[Funeral for a Friend!|#110]] | [[King of the Hill!|#111]] | [[King of the Hill!|#112]] | [[Wanted:Galvatron — Dead or Alive!|#113]] | [[Wanted:Galvatron — Dead or Alive!|#114]] | [[Burning Sky!|#115]] | [[Burning Sky!|#116]] | [[Hunters!|#117]] | [[Hunters!|#118]] | [[Fire on High!|#119]] | [[Fire on High!|#120]] | [[Mechanical Difficulties!|#121]] | [[Mechanical Difficulties!|#122]] | [[Crater Critters|#123]] | [[Crater Critters|#124]] | [[Ancient Relics!|#125]] | [[The Cure!|#126]] | [[The Cure!|#127]] | [[Buster Witwicky and the Car Wash of Doom|#128]] | [[Buster Witwicky and the Car Wash of Doom|#129]] | [[Worlds Apart!|#130]] | [[Worlds Apart!|#131]] | [[Kup's Story!|#132]] | [[Headhunt|#133]] | [[Headhunt|#134]] | [[Grudge Match!|#135]] | [[Grudge Match!|#136]] | [[Ladies' Night|#137]] | [[Ladies' Night|#138]] | [[Used Autobots|#139]] | [[Used Autobots|#140]] | [[Child's Play (comic issue)|#141]] | [[Child's Play (comic issue)|#142]] | [[Spacehikers!|#143]] | [[Spacehikers!|#144]] | [[Stargazing|#145]] | [[The Legacy of Unicron!|#146]] | [[The Legacy of Unicron!|#147]] | [[The Legacy of Unicron!|#148]] | [[The Legacy of Unicron!|#149]] | [[The Legacy of Unicron!|#150]] | [[The Legacy of Unicron!|#151]] | [[Enemy Action!|#152]] | [[Enemy Action!|#153]] | [[Toy Soldiers!|#154]] | [[Toy Soldiers!|#155]] | [[Trial by Fire!|#156]] | [[Trial by Fire!|#157]] | [[The Desert Island of Space!|#158]] | [[The Desert Island of Space!|#159]] | [[Salvage!|#160]] | [[Salvage!|#161]] | [[Pretender to the Throne!|#162]] | [[Pretender to the Throne!|#163]] | [[City of Fear!|#164]] | [[City of Fear!|#165]] | [[Legion of the Lost!|#166]] | [[Legion of the Lost!|#167]] | [[Meltdown!|#168]] | [[Meltdown!|#169]] | [[Deadly Games!|#170]] | [[Deadly Games!|#171]] | [[Wrecking Havoc|#172]] | [[Wrecking Havoc|#173]] | [[Totaled!|#174]] | [[Totaled!|#175]] | [[People Power!|#176]] | [[People Power!|#177]] | [[The Cosmic Carnival!|#178]] | [[The Cosmic Carnival!|#179]] | [[The Big Broadcast of 2006!|#180]] | [[The Big Broadcast of 2006!|#181]] | [[Space Pirates!|#182]] | [[Space Pirates!|#183]] | [[Space Pirates!|#184]] | [[Space Pirates!|#185]] | [[Space Pirates!|#186]] | [[Space Pirates!|#187]] | [[Firebug!|#188]] | [[Dry Run!|#189]] | [[Monstercon from Mars!|#190]] | [[Monstercon from Mars!|#191]] | [[Ca$h and Car-nage!|#192]] | [[Ca$h and Car-nage!|#193]] | [[Club Con!|#194]] | [[Club Con!|#195]] | [[The Flames of Boltax!|#196]] | [[The Flames of Boltax!|#197]] | [[Cold Comfort and Joy!|#198]] | [[Time Wars|#199]] | [[Time Wars|#200]] | [[Time Wars|#201]] | [[Time Wars|#202]] | [[Time Wars|#203]] | [[Time Wars|#204]] | [[Time Wars|#205]] | [[Cold War!|#206]] | [[Cold War!|#207]] | [[Dark Star|#208]] | [[Dark Star|#209]] | [[Dark Star|#210]] | [[The Man in the Machine!|#211]] | [[The Man in the Machine!|#212]] | [[Guess Who the Mecannibals Are Having for Dinner?|#213]] | [[Guess Who the Mecannibals Are Having for Dinner?|#214]] | [[Guess Who the Mecannibals Are Having for Dinner?|#215]] | [[Guess Who the Mecannibals Are Having for Dinner?|#216]] | [[Recipe for Disaster!|#217]] | [[Recipe for Disaster!|#218]] | [[Recipe for Disaster!|#219]] | [[Recipe for Disaster!|#220]] | [[Survivors!|#221]] | [[Survivors!|#222]] | [[Aspects of Evil!|#223]] | [[Aspects of Evil!|#224]] | [[Aspects of Evil!|#225]] | [[Aspects of Evil!|#226]] | [[Aspects of Evil!|#227]] | [[(Double) Deal of the Century!|#228]] | [[Hunting Party!|#229]] | [[The Big Shutdown!|#230]] | [[The Big Shutdown!|#231]] | [[King Con!|#232]] | [[King Con!|#233]] | [[King Con!|#234]] | [[King Con!|#235]] | [[The Interplanetary Wrestling Championship!|#236]] | [[The Interplanetary Wrestling Championship!|#237]] | [[The Interplanetary Wrestling Championship!|#238]] | [[The Interplanetary Wrestling Championship!|#239]] | [[Back from the Dead!|#240]] | [[Back from the Dead!|#241]] | [[Back from the Dead!|#242]] | [[The Resurrection Gambit!|#243]] | [[The Resurrection Gambit!|#244]] | [[The Resurrection Gambit!|#245]] | [[All the Familiar Faces!|#246]] | [[All the Familiar Faces!|#247]] | [[All the Familiar Faces!|#248]] | [[Skin Deep|#249]] | [[Skin Deep|#250]] | [[Skin Deep|#251]] | [[Yesterday's Heroes!|#252]] | [[Yesterday's Heroes!|#253]] | [[Yesterday's Heroes!|#254]] | [[Perchance to Dream|#255]] | [[Perchance to Dream|#256]] | [[Perchance to Dream|#257]] | [[Perchance to Dream|#258]] | [[Primal Scream|#259]] | [[Primal Scream|#260]] | [[Primal Scream|#261]] | [[Bird of Prey!|#262]] | [[Bird of Prey!|#263]] | [[Bird of Prey!|#264]] | [[Once Upon a Time...|#265]] | [[Life in the Slow Lane|#266]] | [[Snow Fun!|#267]] | [[Flashback!|#268]] | [[Mystery!|#269]] | [[The Bad Guy's Ball!|#270]] | [[The Living Nightlights!|#271]] | [[Cry Wolf!|#272]] | [[Wolf in the Fold!|#273]] | [[Where Wolf?|#274]] | [[Secrets|#275]] | [[Bugged!|#276]] | [[Internal Affairs!|#277]] | [[The House that Wheeljack Built!|#278]] | [[Divide and Conquer!|#279]] | [[The 4,000,000 Year Itch!|#280]] | [[Makin' Tracks!|#281]] | [[Kings of the Wild Frontier|#282]] | [[Kings of the Wild Frontier|#283]] | [[Kings of the Wild Frontier|#284]] | [[Kings of the Wild Frontier|#285]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#286]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#287]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#288]] | [[Deadly Obsession|#289]] | [[Dark Creation|#290]] | [[Dark Creation|#291]] | [[Dark Creation|#292]] | [[Dark Creation|#293]] | [[All Fall Down (comic issue)|#294]] | [[All Fall Down (comic issue)|#295]] | [[All Fall Down (comic issue)|#296]] | [[All Fall Down (comic issue)|#297]] | [[Rhythms of Darkness!|#298]] | [[Rhythms of Darkness!|#299]] | [[Rhythms of Darkness!|#300]] | [[Rhythms of Darkness!|#301]] | [[The Human Factor!|#302]] | [[The Human Factor!|#303]] | [[The Human Factor!|#304]] | [[The Human Factor!|#305]] | [[Eye of the Storm!|#306]] | [[Eye of the Storm!|#307]] | [[Eye of the Storm!|#308]] | [[The Price of Life!|#309]] | [[The Price of Life!|#310]] | [[Surrender!|#311]] | [[Surrender!|#312]] | [[...All This and Civil War 2|#313]] | [[...All This and Civil War 2|#314]] | [[Out of Time!|#315]] | [[Out of Time!|#316]] | [[The Void! (US)|#317]] | [[The Void! (US)|#318]] | [[On the Edge of Extinction!|#319]] | [[On the Edge of Extinction!|#320]] | [[On the Edge of Extinction!|#321]] | [[On the Edge of Extinction!|#322]] | [[Still Life!|#323]] | [[Still Life!|#324]] | [[Exodus!|#325]] | [[Exodus!|#326]] | [[A Savage Circle|#327]] | [[A Savage Circle|#328]] | [[The Last Autobot?|#329]] | [[The Last Autobot?|#330]] | [[End of the Road! (US)|#331]] | [[End of the Road! (US)|#332]]
|}

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">Marvel UK issues (2nd story for issues with two non-reprint TF stories):</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[Ring of Hate!|#130]] | [[Ring of Hate!|#131]] | [[Ring of Hate!|#132]] | [[Ring of Hate!|#133]] | [[Broken Glass!|#134]] | [[Broken Glass!|#135]] | [[Broken Glass!|#136]] | [[Broken Glass!|#137]] | [[Love and Steel!|#138]] | [[Love and Steel!|#139]] | [[Love and Steel!|#140]] | [[Love and Steel!|#141]] | [[Brothers in Armor!!|#142]] | [[Brothers in Armor!!|#143]] | [[Brothers in Armor!!|#144]] | [[Brothers in Armor!!|#145]] | ... | [[The Fall and Rise of the Decepticon Empire|#213]] | [[The Fall and Rise of the Decepticon Empire|#214]] | [[Race with the Devil|#215]] | [[Race with the Devil|#216]] | [[Race with the Devil|#217]] | [[Race with the Devil|#218]] | [[Survivors!|#219]] | [[Survivors!|#220]] | ... | [[A Small War!|#232]] | [[A Small War!|#233]] | [[Prime's Rib!|#234]] | [[Deathbringer (comic issue)|#235]] | [[Deathbringer (comic issue)|#236]] | [[Way of the Warrior|#237]] | [[Survival Run|#238]] | [[A Savage Place!|#239]] | [[Out to Lunch!|#240]] | [[Rage!|#241]] | [[Assault on the Ark!|#242]] | [[Mind Games|#243]] | [[Two Megatrons!|#244]] | [[Underworld!|#245]] | [[Demons!|#246]] | [[Dawn of Darkness|#247]] | [[Fallen Star!|#248]] | [[Whose Lifeforce is it Anyway?|#249]] | [[The Greatest Gift of All!|#250]] | [[The Void! (UK)|#251]] | [[Edge of Impact|#252]] | [[Shadow of Evil|#253]] | [[White Fire|#254]] | ... | [[Perchance to Dream|#259]] | [[Perchance to Dream|#260]] | [[Starting Over!|#261]] | [[Two Steps Back!|#262]] | [[Break-Away!|#263]] | [[Desert Island Risks!|#264]] | ... | [[Shut Up!|#282]] | [[Manoeuvres!|#283]] | [[Assassins|#284]] | [[External Forces!|#285]] | [[The Lesser Evil|#286]] | [[Inside Story!|#287]] | [[Front Line!|#288]] | [[End of the Road! (UK)|#289]]
|}

===Overview===
[[Image:MarvelUK-244.jpg|right|200px|thumb|This is the best Cracker Jack prize ever!]]
Though not without contradiction, the Marvel UK book managed to weave a number of highly complex stories "behind the scenes" of the Marvel U.S. tales. Topics included expanded stories and battles in the early days of the war (before [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave's]] arrival), more intrigue among the [[Decepticon]] commanders on Earth, the [[Autobot]] resistance on Cybertron, and the time-travelling exploits of [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], who arrives directly from the future world of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''.

The UK book's weekly schedule and shorter format meant splitting stories into parts, often right in the middle of the action. Like the U.S. book, Marvel UK featured a regular column of letters from readers; however, these were supposedly answered by various Transformers, including [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]], [[Dreadwind (G1)|Dreadwind]], and others. ''See [[Letters page (Marvel UK)]]''.

===Creative team===
[[Image:Megatron-timewars-comparison.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Change of artists? Eh, who'll notice?]]
Most UK-specific stories were written by [[Simon Furman]], who was later assigned to write for the U.S. comic as well. Curiously, it was from this point that the divergences between the UK and U.S. stories became more pronounced.

Regular artists included [[Will Simpson]], [[Robin Smith]], [[Dan Reed]], [[Jeff Anderson]], [[Lee Sullivan]], [[Geoff Senior]], and [[Andrew Wildman]]. The large stable of artists resulted in some extreme contrasts of style throughout the book, such as Reed's highly organic art being followed by the clean, mechanical precision of Sullivan or Senior. Sometimes these changes occurred within the context of a single story.

===Complexity and contradiction in continuity===
[[Image:Goldbugorigins.jpg|right|200px|thumb|In no continuity was his face damaged. Maybe Bumblebee was just really ugly by Transformer standards.]]
Making the new stories align with the U.S. book occasionally involved some bending over backwards in storytelling terms. [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], for example, winds up with partial amnesia at the end of [[Resurrection!|one story]], explaining why he doesn't remember the [[Predacon (G1)|Predacons]] when he encounters them again in a [[Gone but Not Forgotten!|later U.S. story]]. U.S. reprints were sometimes physically edited as well; for example, a UK story has [[Skids (G1)|Skids]] being transported to [[Limbo]] after the events of U.S. #23, necessitating the removal of his occasional background appearances thereafter.

Another major change was the exclusion of the ''[[G.I. Joe and the Transformers]]'' crossover, which featured [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee's]] destruction and subsequent restoration as Goldbug. UK continuity accounted for the reformatting by showing Bumblebee destroyed by [[Death's Head]] and rebuilt by [[Wreck-Gar (G1)|Wreck-Gar]] during "[[Hunters!]]". Also, the UK comic continued to feature Megatron and Shockwave after their apparent deaths in the U.S. comic. While Megatron's appearance was eventually [[Two Megatrons!|reconciled]] (sort of, if you squint) with the U.S. continuity, Shockwave's was not.

The "[[Perchance to Dream]]" story in UK #255-260 began the [[Earthforce]] storyline and heralded a nigh-irreconcilable division between U.S. and UK stories. This was in part a deliberate decision to not try to maintain continuity due to past problems,<ref name="furint1">[http://transfans.net/interviews_furman.php TransFans.net - Interviews: Simon Furman - Part 1 'The Past'].<br />'''Question''' Why do you feel continuity suffered more instead of less, between Marvel UK and US when you took over the US book?<br />"The problem was, we were badly out of synch with the US material reprints by the time I was also writing the US comic. I was trying my hardest to craft semi-crossover stories (like the [[Deathbringer (comic issue)|Deathbringer two-parter]] with [[Dark Creation|US #65]]) and then the UK comic would run a batch of old UK reprint material and completely throw it out. I realised I was making matters worse (and more confusing) and not better, and pretty much stopped trying to directly tie the two together. </ref><ref name="furint2">[http://transfans.net/interviews_furman.php]; "...because (if I’m brutally honest) I didn't try too hard to make it work in the first place. By that point, I was just trying to tell a bunch of fun UK stories that didn’t necessarily impact on the larger (US) storyline. How was I to know 15 or so years later people would be trying to reconcile it all?"</ref>

===Publication and format===
The Marvel UK book was published fortnightly from #1 to #26, weekly from #27 to #308, and fortnightly again from #309 to its conclusion in #332. These issues used a larger, magazine-sized format, compared to the traditional size for modern U.S. comic books. They contained 23 pages, numbered inclusive of advertising (unlike the U.S. comic). The color and paper quality was better than that of the U.S. comic, resulting in much whiter whites and, in UK-exclusive stories, no ugly dot artifacts in the colored regions.

Typically, 11 pages would be devoted to a U.S. or UK Transformers story, while the remaining pages were divided between a back-up strip, a letters page, small humorous comic strips (most notably ''[[Robo-Capers]]'' and ''[[Combat Colin]]''), and advertisements. Between issues #213 and #289 the format was changed to accomodate three five-page strips: the US reprint (published in colour), a new UK story (published in black and white) and a back-up strip. Issue #289 was the last to contain new UK Transformers stories.

In issue #290 there was another format change, with the comic returning to full colour throughout and reprints of classic UK stories taking the place of new black and white material. The three-strip structure was then dropped for good with issue #309, which returned to the traditional format of an 11-page US reprint and a back-up strip, albeit published fortnightly once more.

UK children's comics typically have a weekly or fortnightly publication schedule, and monthly publication is the preserve of more substantial magazines aimed at older readers. The decision to publish fortnightly necessitated the division of the U.S. storylines between two or more UK comics, otherwise the UK comic would run out of material. The back-up strip then bulked out the issue to an acceptable size. When the comic began to be published weekly, this required still more Transformers material, which led to longer runs of original UK stories.

The Marvel UK series ran for about a year longer than its American counterpart and altogether had about twice as many stories.

===Cover dates===
Similarly to the U.S. comic, there is also some confusion over when issues of the UK comic were published. The date on a British weekly during ''Transformers'''s run was normally the ''off''-sale date when it would be replaced by the next issue. For example [[Manoeuvres!|issue #283]] has a cover date of 18th August 1990 but was released on the 11th August 1990. During at least most of the run, the norm was for weekly comics to come out on a Saturday.

Occasionally, an issue was seen arriving on the Friday before it was "due", with such sightings usually during the Christmas/New Year period when distribution can be unsettled and overcompensated for, but it is hard to verify individual sightings.

===Marvel UK Annuals===
'''Marvel UK Annuals''' were published every year, just before Christmas, for the life of the comic. Each annual was made up of a combination of a comic strip, text stories and editorial content. Some annuals also contained crossover stories with the main weekly comic in an attempt to boost sales. Due to falling sales, later annuals mainly contained reprinted stories from the comic. (Reprinted stories are not listed below.) These reprints are still of interest, as they present formerly black-and-white works in full colour.

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">[[Transformers Annual 1986|Marvel UK Annual 1986]]</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[Hunted!]] | [[Missing in Action]] | [[Plague of the Insecticons!]] | [[And There Shall Come...a Leader!]]
|}

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">[[Transformers Annual 1987|Marvel UK Annual 1987]]</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[In the Beginning...]] | [[The Return of the Transformers]] | [[State Games]] | [[The Mission]] | [[To a Power Unknown!]] |[[Victory!]]
|}

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">[[Transformers Annual 1988|Marvel UK Annual 1988]]</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[Ark Duty]] | [[Doomsday for Nebulos]] | [[Stylor's Story]] | [[The Final Conflict]] |[[Vicious Circle!]] | [[What's in a Name?]]
|}

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">[[Transformers Annual 1989|Marvel UK Annual 1989]]</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[All in the Minds!]] | [[Altered Image!]] | [[Peace]] | [[Prime Bomb!]] | [[The Saga Of The Transformers - So Far!]]
|}

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">[[Transformers Annual 1990|Marvel UK Annual 1990]]</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[Chain Gang!]] | [[Destiny of the Dinobots!]] | [[Dreadwing Down!]] | [[The Quest!]] |[[Trigger-Happy!]]
|}

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">[[Transformers Annual 1991|Marvel UK Annual 1991]]</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[The Magnificent Six!]]
|}

{|style="margin:0 auto;padding:0 auto" align=center id=toc
!align=center bgcolor=#6699CC|'''<font color="white">[[Transformers Annual 1992|Marvel UK Annual 1992]]</font>'''
|- align="center"
|| [[Another Time and Place]]
|}

==Trivia==
[[Image:TransformersGoesMonthly.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Gor strewth kippers chips milk float!]]
* The inside cover infobox in Marvel UK #330 revealed that there were plans for the UK ''Transformers'' comic to continue after #332, albeit with a format change. The book was intended to have become a monthly with issue #333, and would have featured ten pages of recolored Transformers reprints, ten pages of ''[[G.I. Joe]]'', and a new five-page story per issue. However, by the publication of issue #332, Marvel UK evidently dropped this plan—although the news did not reach ''[[Combat Colin]]'' in time.
* According to the third issue of ''All-New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z'''s entries on [[Death's Head]], the events of the Marvel UK Generation 1 comics take place on Marvel [[Earth-120185]]. The universe is named after the publication date of the first Marvel UK-exclusive story, "[[Man of Iron!]]".

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

==External links==
* [http://www.oneshallstand.com/articles/overview.html Guide to TF UK by Crespo99]
* [http://groups.google.com/group/net.comics/browse_thread/thread/4eeba9a9b0fe0817/1cdaf7df610e0376 May, 1984 net.comics review]

[[Category:Comics]]
[[Category:Continuities]]

Scale

2009-03-29T02:32:49Z

Werthead: /* Citybots */

[[Image:OptimusSnakeEyes.jpg|right|300px|thumb|And the truck's how big...?]]
'''Scale''' in ''Transformers'' is, not to put too fine a point on it, screwed.

Virtually no era, franchise, fiction, [[Toy|toyline]] or other incarnation of ''Transformers'' has presented scale in a logical or believable fashion. (The only exceptions are the 1:24 toys for ''[[Alternators]]'' and ''[[Kiss Players (toyline)|Kiss Players]]'', but they [[Atari Hitotonari|have their own problems]].) Most fans agree that one must either ignore it or accept it, lest they be tempted to explain these problems and in the process fanwank themselves into oblivion.

However, the scale problems of ''Transformers'' still merit description.

==Scale within toylines==
===Toys out of scale with others in the same line===
[[Image:DiacloneScale.jpg|right|350px|thumb|That little guy — who comes from the same toyline as all those vehicles — is supposed to be a normal-sized human. Yeeeah.]]
The early [[The Transformers (toyline)|Generation 1 toyline]], especially the pre-[[The Transformers: The Movie|movie]] lines, were repackaged and [[Redeco|redecoed]] toys from several different Japanese toylines. The crucial point is that the toylines were initially unrelated. The characters ''should'' be in scale to each other as they all have real-world altmodes that (should) pass for real vehicles. However, since ''[[Diaclone]]'' toys were not part of the same line as ''[[Microman]]'' toys, scale issues arose. ''Diaclone'' figures such as [[Optimus Prime (G1) toys|Optimus Prime]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] are more-or-less in correct scale to each other (though problems already arise with [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] and [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]], whose [[Alternate mode|alternate modes]] are based on ''the same car'' yet are not quite the same size), but many of the [[Mini Vehicle|Mini Vehicles]] from the ''New Microman'' line are clearly far too small by comparison. Even aside from their deformed penny-racer proportions, a [[Bumblebee (G1)|Volkswagen Beetle]] Microman toy is disproportionately tiny when compared to a [[Jazz (G1)|Porsche 935]] Diaclone toy. The disparity becomes even more obvious with [[Minibot|Minibots]] such as [[Warpath (G1)|Warpath]] (a tank) and [[Seaspray]] (a hovercraft), who should be many times their actual size.

Another glaring scale problem comes in the form of the [[Seeker|Seekers]], who turn into F-15 Eagles which, in real life, are 19.4 m (63.8 feet) long. Correctly scaled, this would make their robot modes ''colossal'' compared to most Autobots. Similarly, the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], despite also coming from the ''Diaclone'' line, are too small. Far worse is the other ''Diaclone'' combiner team, the [[Trainbot|Trainbots]], who have train engine altmodes, yet their toys are among the ''smallest'' of the ''Diaclone'' releases.

===Toys out of scale within teams===
Even toys specifically designed to interact with each other suffer from this problem. The [[Combaticon|Combaticons]] are wildly out of scale to each other—[[Blast Off]]'s space shuttle mode should dwarf [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]], with the others somewhere in between. Instead, they're about the same size. Among the Constructicons, [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] is designed to look like a gigantic <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Liebherr_t282_1.jpg" class="extiw" title="wikipedia:Image:Liebherr_t282_1.jpg">"earth-mover" mining truck</a>. He should be able to carry all his teammates in his bed, with some crowding. Similarly, [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]] (a Concorde jet) is dramatically undersized compared to his fighter-jet [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbot]] teammates. These scale problems are necessary to avoid misproportioned gestalt forms.

Don't even ask about the Protectobots with their [[Groove (G1)|motorcycle]] and [[Blades|helicopter]] limbs...

===Same altmode, different sizes===
Other scale problems come from characters who transform into the same (or similar) altmodes but whose toys are different sizes. For example [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] transforms into an F-15 Eagle, but his toy is half the size of [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]]'s. The same can be said for the Lamborghini Countach [[Breakdown]], who should be the same size as [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] and [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]], not significantly smaller. These discrepancies are also seen in the other [[Scramble City]] combiners with Earth altmodes, whose toys are all smaller than similar earlier toys.

===Multiple scales of same character===
Although it was never really a problem in G1 (later retro-iterations of [[Optimus Prime (G1)|G1 Prime]] e.g. [[Masterpiece]] don't count), later franchises sometimes released multiple versions of the same character in different [[Size class|size classes]] ''within the same product line'', usually limited to the leader characters. Multiple versions of [[Optimus Primal]] and [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] in ''[[Beast Wars (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' weren't exactly an example of this, as they represented different bodies, but ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'' began the problem in earnest with three different [[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] toys released over the course of the line. With one toy at the Supreme size point, one at the Mega point, and a third slight variant at the Deluxe point, there was no real indication of which size if any was the "correct" one. The same line also released two different [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]] toys and two different Optimus Primals.

[[Image:TFAnimated RolloutCommand OptimusPrime toy.jpg|right|230px|thumb|Hooray. I'm in scale with nobody.]]
''[[Robots in Disguise (toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'' continued the trend, with several prominent characters receiving a smaller [[spychanger]] toy in addition to their larger toy, such as [[Scourge (RiD)|Scourge]] and [[X-Brawn]]. The ''[[Armada (toyline)|Armada]]'' line featured both a Super-Con and Super-Base version of [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] featuring the same design at different size-classes, an issue repeated with [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] in ''[[Energon (toyline)|Energon]]''. The introduction of the "Legends of Cybertron" size class in ''[[Cybertron (toyline)|Cybertron]]'' only compounded matters, as a plethora of different characters were released at a size wildly out of scale with any of their contemporaries. ''Cybertron'' also featured the first notable case of out-of-scale toys being at least partially explained in the fiction with [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]], who did change size over the course of the series.

With the explosion of toys for the [[Movie (toyline)|Movie]], even more scale problems erupted. The line offered both Voyager and Leader-class iterations of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Prime]] and [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], not to mention nearly all of the movie's onscreen cast getting a Fast Action Battler toy which introduces scale problems between the toys and one another. The fact that [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] came with a small Scorponok, and a separate Deluxe class [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]] was released, only expands the scale problems when one realizes that the Blackout and Deluxe Scorponok toys are meant to interact. Blackout can carry the small Scorponok ''while'' clipped on to the larger one as well, effectively transporting ''both'' at the same time, which makes the entire assembly a nightmare of scaling problems.

This mishmash has expanded even further in the ''[[Transformers Animated (toyline)|Animated]]'' line, with Deluxe, Voyager, and even Supreme-class versions of [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]]. [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]], has a Voyager, Deluxe, and a leader mode. And there's even two different sizes for poor [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]].

Originally, the intent was apparently to make the popular [[Optimus (disambiguation)|Optimus]] and [[Megatron (disambiguation)|Megatron]] characters available at lower price points than just "leader" class so that children with less money would not miss out, while also forcing [[completist]] [[User:ItsWalky|collectors]] to buy multiple versions of one character. The result, however, is that it creates further confusion about scale within the toyline, as the contradictory sizes of these toys leave it [[Personal canon|up to the fans]] to determine which is the "correct" version, either using apparent [[show-accuracy]] or other criteria. Sometimes this creates even further problems, though—if one assumes that the Voyager-class Movie Prime is the "correct" version, then he either has comically small seats for human passengers or [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] has absurdly large seats.

===Toys out of scale with themselves===
[[Image:G1 Broadside toy.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Kill me. Just... kill me now.]]
[[Triple Changer|Triple Changers]] create a whole new set of problems. [[Octane]] transforms from a 20 m (60') tanker truck into a 65 m (200') jumbo jet. [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] transforms from an Earth jet into an entire ''aircraft carrier.''

Even a two-mode toy can have this problem. Twentieth Anniversary Optimus Prime has wheels which are pretty tiny for a Freightliner truck, while his rear hitch section is too thick. These out-of-proportion vehicle parts were necessary to give his robot mode [[Show-accuracy|show-accurate]] proportions.

===Toys with roleplay altmodes===
The characters with roleplay altmodes such as Generation 1 [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]], [[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]], [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]], or [[Laserbeak (Armada)|''Armada'' Laserbeak]] are scaled to be human-scale (well, kid-scale). Since the [[size changing]] seen in the fiction is not possible for real toys (at least, that's what [[Takara]] ''wants'' us to think), this human-scaling makes in some cases for inordinately large robot modes. E.g., [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]]'s toy, in robot mode, is taller than most other Transformers.

The opposite problem is seen with [[Megatron (G1) toys|Masterpiece Megatron]], whose robot mode is in scale with Masterpiece Optimus Prime. The result is that, while he may transform into a very accurately-proportioned handgun, it's unmistakably much larger than the real thing. (Not that this has stopped him being widely banned as a "realistic firearm replica"...)

===Fanciful altmodes===
Most post-[[The Transformers: The Movie|movie]] Generation 1 characters (for that matter, most post-Generation 1 lines) are difficult to accurately scale, as they generally transform into futuristic or Cybertronian vehicles whose size we don't really know. (Or, indeed, they don't transform into vehicles at all.) The scale of characters such as [[Hot Rod]] or [[Leobreaker]] is fairly arbitrary and can only be estimated by their relative size to other characters in the fiction (although most fiction is highly inconsistent in this regard, see below). Nevertheless, if one assumes that most vehicle altmodes are intended for human-sized passengers, comparing toys such as [[Chromedome]] and [[Lightspeed (Technobot)|Lightspeed]] suggests the combiner scale problem continues.

===Big toys===
It goes without saying that the [[city-bot]] and planetbot toys (such as [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Unicron]]) are not remotely to scale with normal Transformer toys. While they are indeed ''large'' toys, they're only two to five times bigger than typical Transformer toys, and thus transform into "cities" and "planets" about the (relative) size of a bungalow. The scale problems extend to the details. Some of the citybot toys have visible windows, which are too large for a city, suggesting instead a medium-sized building.

However, it's hard to begrudge Hasbro not offering us a [[Primus]] toy the size of an asteroid. Where would we keep it?

===An exception===
There has only been one notable exception to all of this scale weirdness in the toys: the ''[[Alternators]]'' toyline, where every toy is a 1:24-scale representation of a real car, and thus they are in perfect scale with each other. Unfortunately, for practical reasons this limits the choice of altmodes. A Blast Off (space shuttle) toy in scale with the Alternators toys would be 1.6 m (5.1') long, while a Broadside (aircraft carrier) toy at that scale would be over 12 m (40'). (Hasbro actually displayed [[Prototype|mock-ups]] for an unproduced line of "military" Transformers in scale with the Alternators during the BotCon 2007 Hasbro Tour; two of them recycled parts of [[Armada (toyline)|Armada]] [[Unicron]], and were thus [[Size class|Supreme-sized]], which made said potential toyline not particularly commercially viable for Hasbro.)

== Scale within fictions ==
Scale issues abound within the fiction, especially the [[:Image:Tinybluestreak.jpg|1]][[:Image:Huge Ironhide and Small Ratchet.jpg|2]][[:Image:CarnageMiniBlaster.jpg|3]]</sup> but some "errors" were deliberate choices, for a variety of reasons.

===Fictional scale vs. toy scale===
[[Image:TeenyCliff.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Frighteningly toy-accurate.]]
[[Image:Powerglide Astoria Marygoaround.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Actually, disturbing fiction is probably more of a concern than scale issues.]]
G1 ''Transformers'' fiction often depicts characters to the same relative scale as the toys, which duplicates the intra-toyline problems described above. The cartoon, for example, shows Prime, Megatron and Soundwave as about the same height, Seekers and Autobot cars as slightly shorter (though not as much as the toys are), and [[Minibot|Minibots]] as smaller yet. This scale was carried over to their vehicle forms, resulting in differently-sized cars that, based on real world measurements, should be virtually the same size.

[[Image:Omegasupreme astrotrain.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I know he's meant to be big, but holy crap, dude!]]
For another example, the Marvel Comics portrayed the Pretenders as literal interpretations of their toys: 60-foot humans with full scale Transformers inside. The "disguise" aspect of this was later explained by having Landmine and Cloudburst encounter giant, transformer-sized humanoids on an alien planet which made them appear to be of a "normal" scale.

Transformers fiction commonly shrinks or inflates characters, relative to their toy sizes. "Giant" characters such as [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] are, even aside from any [[size changing]] for transport purposes, clearly not in the same scale in toy form as they are depicted on screen. [[Mini-Cassette|Cassette characters]] such as [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]'s toys are roughly the same height as most [[Minibot|Minibots]], while in the show they are usually portrayed as human-sized.

[[Hot Rod|Rodimus Prime]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] are usually shown to be of a fairly similar height (although Magnus is much bulkier), whereas there is a considerable difference between the size of their toys. By the same token, Rodimus is always depicted as being an equal stature to his opposing leader [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], whereas the toy Galvatron is instead the same size as Magnus. Optimus Prime is also usually shown as only a head or so shorter than Magnus (if that), which gets very strange when you realise that a [[redeco]] of Prime's toy forms but a small part of Magnus' robot mode.

[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Airazor picks the Ultra-class figure.]]
The cast of ''[[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' were size-tweaked quite a bit, relative to the toyline. The most noticeable problem is Optimus Primal, who has an Ultra toy (the "level four" size, almost twice the size of the "level three" Mega next-largest Maximal toys), but is shorter than both Dinobot and Rhinox (both of whom are "level two" Deluxe sized toys). Further, Cheetor and Tigatron's toys use the same (Deluxe) mold, but Tigatron is a head taller in the show (both because tigers are larger than cheetahs, and because Cheetor is "a kid"). New and altered characters in later seasons were generally more consistent in size (and appearance) with the toys.

The ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]''' toyline was ''far'' worse in size discrepancies with the cartoon. Of the Maximals featured in the show, the tallest character, [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]], is the ''shortest'' toy, while the diminutive [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] is a massive Ultra-class toy. And, sadly, the most show-accurate toy, Air Attack [[Optimus Primal]], is a ''ginormous'' Supreme figure, towering over the other toys. (Weirdly, the King Kong-like size of this toy became canon in one specific [[micro-continuity]]. {{storylink|Prime Spark|Prime Spark}})
{{-}}

[[Image:ShrinkingHeavy.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I lost thirty tons, thanks to the Jump-Cut! Thank you, Jump-Cut!]]
In the otherwise fairly toy-scale-savvy ''[[Unicron Trilogy]]'', [[Metroplex (Cybertron)|''Cybertron'' Metroplex]] and the other citizens of [[Gigantion]] are depicted as gargantuan in animation, whereas the toys are merely among the normal boxed size-classes. Within the animation, this causes problems with their Mini-Con partners, who are depicted as human-sized in robot mode by themselves, but when shown directly interacting with their larger partners, are scaled up right along with their partner... resulting in some temporarily gigantic Mini-Cons!

The Japanese ''[[Galaxy Force]]'' release of Metroplex, dubbed "Megalo Convoy", included an exclusive [[redeco]] of the [[Legends of Cybertron]] [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime]] toy to indicate the "correct" scale.

The ''[[Transformers: Animated|Animated]]'' franchise has its share of scale problems when comparing its toyline to the cartoon (not helped by multiple releases of some characters in different sizes - see above), with several characters seeming roughly one [[size class]] too small, such as the [[Dinobots (Animated)|Dinobots]] being a mix of one Voyager size and two Deluxes, [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] looking rather diminutive as a Deluxe, and, most egregiously, [[Lugnut]] as a ''very'' squat Voyager who's shorter than even some Deluxes. (As with Voyager-class Bulkhead, more of his mass went into his width, plus his weapon takes away some from his robot mode.) Conversely, the traditionally stunted [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] is marginally too tall and bulky to be in correct scale to his otherwise fairly accurate core teammates, assuming one includes Voyager [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]] and Leader [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] in their lineup. In fact, Animated is one of those toylines where you're not quite sure who you're supposed to base correct scale on.

===Inconsistent portrayal===
[[Image:OmegaSupremeintro.jpg|left|175px|thumb|No! Don't wash him in hot water! He'll...]]
[[Image:Omegasupreme-blasterandgrimlock.jpg|right|200px|thumb|...too late.]]
Even if a size was decided on, it often didn't remain consistent. The height of the cartoon's [[Jetfire (G1)|Skyfire]], just to name one, frequently varied between episodes.

The [[The Transformers (Marvel Comics)|Generation 1 Marvel comic]] is notorious for changing the relative sizes of various characters. A single Transformer's size is rarely consistent between artists. For example, Rumble and Frenzy vary in height relative to Soundwave. A panel in the [[Time Wars]] shows [[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]], [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]], [[Scattershot]], and [[Swoop (G1)|Swoop]] all the same height. [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]], titanic in his original appearance, {{storylink|Command Performances|Command Performances}} shrunk steadily in subsequent issues until he was not much taller than the average Transformer. Fortress Maximus suffered a similar problem, shrinking in size even though he was explicitly rebuilt to be twice as tall as the average Transformer.

[[Image:Beastwarriors scale.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Beast Megatron's size vs. Optimus Prime in America... and Japan. Looks like the Blasty Zone adds on a few tons to Beast Era characters.]]
Between the [[Great War]] and the [[Beast Era]], the majority of the Cybertronian race considerably downgraded in size at the [[Great Upgrade]]. When entering the [[Ark (G1)|''Ark'']], the Beast Warriors are quite small compared to the dormant Generation 1 characters, especially [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]—but just ''how'' much bigger varies quite a bit from scene to scene and episode to episode. When interacting with the Autobot technology of the ''Ark'' and the [[Autobot shuttle]], the Maximals are often dealing with equipment grossly oversized for them (standing on the chairs to reach the controls, turning knobs the size of their heads); yet the ''Ark'' also seems to feature some human-sized computer control panels. {{storylink|Master Blaster|Master Blaster}} Without any height booster, Blackarachnia can interface well with these controls.

On the other hand, ''[[Robot Masters]]'' depicted Generation 1 and ''Beast Wars'' characters like Optimus Prime and Optimus Primal as being exactly the same size. Lovely. It's possible that passage through the [[Blasty Zone]] may somehow <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boom_tube#Later_Additions_to_the_Concept" class="extiw" title="wikipedia:Boom_tube">account for this discrepancy</a>.

===Explicit size changes===
:<div class="noprint">''Main article: [[size changing]]''</div>

Numerous characters are explicitly shown to shrink or expand at various times.

====Human-scaled alternate modes====
Blaster becomes a human-size radio; Megatron shrinks into a Transformer-scaled handgun. The cartoons and comics typically show this without explanation, leaving the reader to attribute it to advanced alien technology.

====Pretenders====
Some versions of the Pretenders are shown to explicitly shrink when hiding in their human-sized outer shells. In the U.S. toy commercials, Grimlock, Bumblebee, and Jazz in their new Pretender forms were small enough to fit in Powermaster Optimus Prime's hand. So, at least in that [[micro-continuity]], they were human-sized. ''[[Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]'' featured Pretenders who did not have outer shells but rather an ill-defined holistic transformation which explicitly involved size changing. A vaguely similar explanation appeared in [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave's]] ''[[More Than Meets The Eye (G1)|More Than Meets The Eye]]'' encyclopedia.

===Implicit size changes===
Characters often change size when transforming in a less explicit fashion. These changes in scale are usually attributed to size changing by that portion of the fanbase who like to find explanations for things. The other explanation is that the artists hoped the audience wouldn't notice.

====Transport characters====
In the original cartoon, Transformers that act as transport for other Transformers, such as [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]], Skyfire, and [[Cosmos (G1)|Cosmos]], will often dramatically change size relative to their compatriots between one shot and the next. For example, Cosmos is ''much'' shorter than Blaster in robot form; yet Blaster easily fits within his spacecraft mode. Likewise, a whole squad of Decepticons can fit into Astrotrain's shuttle mode easily, yet he's an ordinary-sized trooper in his robot form.

Sometimes the cartoon would show ordinarily-scaled characters such as Cyclonus, Thrust or Huffer carrying another Transformer in their cockpit, implying either a tiny passenger or a huge vehicle. Even Omega Supreme, who is supposed to be huge, would have to have a greatly expanded scale for his rocket ship component to accommodate passengers as shown on the cartoon.

The Marvel comics commonly sidestepped this issue by not using Transformers as transport characters, or else requiring the passengers to transform into their explicitly smaller forms to be carried. Yet they were not immune to this problem. In one story, the Pretender [[Cloudburst]] exited his shell, transformed into jet mode, and then his shell (and [[Landmine (G1)|Landmine]]) boarded him as a passenger. The fact that his ''outer'' shell was now much smaller than the ''inner'' robot was quietly ignored. {{storylink|Guess Who the Mecannibals are Having for Dinner?|Guess Who the Mecannibals are Having for Dinner?}}

Dreamwave's ''More than Meets the Eye'' series of bio comics tried to explain this for characters such as Astrotrain and Broadside by saying they're able to expand themselves to increase cargo space in vehicle mode, though their armor becomes thinner as it is spread out more. Conversely, the series notes, in robot mode, all that armor and structure being compressed into a smaller form makes that mode stronger and more durable for combat.

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<div class="thumb" style="padding: 33px 0; width: 150px;"><div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 120px;">[[MakeHoistHuffer.jpg|<img alt="" src="/w2/images2/thumb/c/c4/MakeHoistHuffer.jpg/120px-MakeHoistHuffer.jpg" width="120" height="80" border="0" />]]</div></div>
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Definitely ''not'' toy-accurate.

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<div class="thumb" style="padding: 27px 0; width: 150px;"><div style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; width: 120px;">[[Ironhide carried into Ratchet.jpg|<img alt="" src="/w2/images2/thumb/f/f0/Ironhide_carried_into_Ratchet.jpg/120px-Ironhide_carried_into_Ratchet.jpg" width="120" height="91" border="0" />]]</div></div>
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...And not to mention [[Ironhide (G1)|th]][[Ratchet (G1)|is]].

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====Combiner characters====
[[Image:DreamwaveCover6.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Since when is a sedan nine stories tall?]]
[[Combiner]] characters are often depicted as far larger than the sum of their parts. Characters such as [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] and [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] are frequently shown as [[That big green, fire-snortin' lizard|Godzilla]]-sized. Given that their limbs are mere cars and construction vehicles, this is patently absurd. ([[Superion (G1)|Superion]], by contrast, ''would'' be building-sized, given that his torso is a 100-seat jetliner.)

Combiners are also often out-of-scale with other Transformers; a combiner with cars for legs and another car for its torso should be only twice as tall as a one-car Transformer, but they are routinely drawn as five to dozens of times taller than their comrades.

====Scale problems and size-changing====
Some fans interpret the many otherwise-unexplained scale issues above to all be the result of [[size changing]], but this is debatable. If virtually all characters use mass-shifting (or whatever) to gain or drop a few feet of height for no logical reason, the technology would be pointlessly mundane. There's also no known reason for (e.g.) the Seekers to choose to get ''shorter'' when going into battle. A to-scale Starscream in robot mode could kick Bumblebee around like a soccer ball. There's simply no positive evidence that size-changing is so widespread.

===Undersized alternate modes===
Many Transformers are portrayed in fiction as having alternate modes that are smaller than the real-life objects they are imitating. Sometimes this is deliberate, allowing them to match their toy scale and/or be of a similar size to other characters; in other cases, it is essentially an artistic error.

Toys at the lowest price points usually include "mini" or "micro" in their name. [[Mini Vehicle|Mini Vehicles]] [[Warpath (G1)|Warpath]], [[Seaspray]], and [[Powerglide]] are usually depicted as smaller than other Transformers in fiction, even though their alternate modes should have them towering over other characters. This often results in minuscule vehicle forms; Seaspray is a tiny hovercraft, despite being covered with doors and windows.

[[Image:Hotrodpatrolcommercial.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Do you have change for four hot rods?]]
The [[Micromaster|Micromasters]] are explicitly downsized Transformers, roughly the size of a human in the comics, meaning that they ''should'' have explicitly tiny vehicle modes... which wouldn't make for very convincing disguises. The Micromasters are about the same height in robot mode, but they transform into equally tiny cars, trucks, planes, tanks, and other vehicles that should be vastly different sizes.

Despite this, the Marvel comic featured [[Roadhandler (G1)|Roadhandler]] carrying a human passenger in his vehicle form, as though he were a full-sized car. The Dreamwave miniseries ''[[Micromasters]]'' suggested that the Micromasters were scaled down to interact more easily with "smaller beings". Whether that meant creatures of human scale or even smaller stature is never clarified, but the Micromasters' passenger compartments are presumably too small to accommodate human passengers.

The [[Mini-Con|Mini-Cons]] of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] are another race of small robots who stand approximately the same height as humans and, like the Micromasters before them, are clearly modeled to carry passengers. Really teeny passengers. (Notable exceptions are [[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]] (in his original body), [[Sureshock (Armada)|Sureshock]], and [[High Wire (Armada)|High Wire]], who become small one-man conveyances.) This results from the Mini-Cons scanning normal vehicles and then resizing them to fit, retaining now-useless passenger compartments. In the [[Cybertron (cartoon)|''Cybertron'' cartoon]], the [[Recon Mini-Con Team]] have slightly-larger-than-human robot modes, but their alternate modes are large enough for a single human passenger, implying either a little size-changing or that their cockpits are kinda cramped. Though the Recon Team all originate from Gigantion, and seeing how partnered Minicons seem to change size to fit their larger companions, a little size shift to accomidate a passenger doesn't seem too far-fetched compared to other scale issues.

Likewise, the [[Beast Era]] Maximals and Predacons possess roughly human-size bodies; yet when portrayed as vehicles on Cybertron ("[[Dawn of Future's Past]]", the Vehicons in [[Beast Machines]]), they feature seats and cockpits that, at their size, should be basically useless.

====Citybots====
[[Image:EarlyGalvatronTVMagazine1.jpg|right|200px|thumb|If you were ever this big in the cartoon, then we might call you a city.]]
The characters [[Metroplex (G1)|Metroplex]], [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]], [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Scorponok (G1)|Scorponok]] have "city" alternate modes. As actual real-life cities can sprawl for many miles, a [[city-bot]] that can notionally house a population of humans, ''let alone'' Transformers, should have a robot-mode that'd make [[Hojoni|Godzilla]] look like a gecko. Suffice to say, almost no fiction even ''begins'' to approximate the logical size of a true "city-bot". In the American and Japanese cartoons, all four were shown as massive robots capable of housing many normal-sized Transformers. Even so, it would take something along the lines of the grossly undersized depictions of [[Unicron]] (see below) even to begin to represent reasonably the colossal size of a transformed city; so in the context of Transformers, "city" is perhaps better read as "building" or "fortress".

These city-bots often have "small" robots forming vital components. Scorponok has a "human-sized" being forming his head. [[Full-Tilt]], [[Six-Gun]], and [[Slammer]] must logically be building-sized in robot-mode to be in-scale with Trypticon and Metroplex, but, again, are not drawn as such.

The Marvel Generation 1 comic sidestepped this issue by depicting Trypticon, Fortress Maximus and Scorponok as merely "large-standard" characters. However, Metroplex, during his one, brief appearance, was depicted as being immensely larger, crushing Quintesson attack cruisers under foot without batting an eyelid. He was still considerably smaller than a city, however, but this was justified by him merely serving as the 'transformation core' for Autobot City: Earth, not the actual city itself.
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====Planets and planetbots====
[[Image:Cybertronplanet.jpg|left|250px|thumb|If we're generous and assume Cybertron is only the size of Earth's moon, then the larger visible buildings are roughly the size of Massachusetts stood on end, and you could wedge France into that gash. (Which would probably improve both Cybertron and France.)]]
Scale when it comes to planets is so fraught it's painful. The problems of describing citybots as "cities" is a thousand times worse if [[Unicron]] is supposed to have a planet alternate mode, and [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] is in turn supposed to be of similar size. Though different stories have compared Cybertron/Primus and Unicron to drastically different real planets, the fact remains that they are ''planets'', and yet are shown in such insane scale to characters as to suggest they are the size of a ''very'' small moon (or [[Darth Vader|space station]]).

To start with, Cybertron was shown throughout ''Generation 1'' with buildings visible from space. Although this was intended to show that the planet was technological in nature, it makes little sense, as the structures would have to be the size of small ''nations'' to be visible. If the buildings were in fact supposed to be skyscrapers (or even ''2000 A.D.''-style arcologies) sized for 10 m (30') robots, Cybertron would still be less than 150km (100 miles) across. By comparison, the rather [http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/index.html Coruscant]-like shots of Cybertron in ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'' may be less distinctive or "Cybertronian", but are ''far'' more believable. Some people let this go by reasoning that Transformers being larger than humans, don't need to breathe, and all that technology meaning buildings CAN be that big.

Unicron is a more extreme problem. Assuming no [[size changing]] occurs during his transformation (and really, what possible reason would he have to become ''smaller''?), in robot mode he would be so massive that any shot featuring a recognizable ''part'' of his body, let alone the whole thing, would be on a scale such that no normal Transformer would even be visible. [[Image:UnicronEatsGalvyMmmm.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Either Galvy is humungo, or Lithone is tiiinyyy!!!]]Scenes in the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie|Movie]]'' in which he directly interacts with normal Cybertronians are blatantly absurd (though totally phat-looking). Shots such as the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] fleeing his grasping hand, a starship penetrating his eye, impaling [[Brainstorm]] on his fingernail, {{storylink|On the Edge of Extinction|On the Edge of Extinction}} or ''especially'' him picking up Galvatron between his fingers before swallowing him, break any concept of "planetary" scale. If Unicron is the size of a planet, his hands would be the size of continents. This would make Galvatron (in the image to the right) the size of Great Britain.
There is no explanation for any of this. Just go with it.

The depiction of Unicron's scale in ''[[Armada (franchise)|Armada]]'' was (debatably) a slight improvement, in that physical interaction with normal beings was not attempted. He preferred instead to communicate with normal Transformers by possessing one of them. {{storylink|Sideways|Sideways}} Nevertheless, shots featuring [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] and [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] standing on his neck are still ''farcically'' out of scale.

===Oversized alternate modes===
[[Image:RattrapLOVEScheetor.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I'm tellin' ya, all da rats in Brooklyn are dis big!]]
Much less common are instances of a Transformer turning into an overscaled real-world object. Most such instances occur in the ''Beast Wars'' era.

Although the Beast Warriors are consistent day-to-day in their relative size to each other, their scale in relation to their real-world animal equivalents is more complex. While the bug characters such as [[Waspinator]] and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] are obviously scaled-up, other characters are more subtly not quite the right size.

[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Tigatron]] are shown standing next to real members of their species, and they are both the same size as the animals in question. {{storylink|Beast Wars (Part 1)|Beast Wars (Part 1)}} {{storylink|Law of the Jungle|Law of the Jungle}} This makes them (and Cheetor in particular, since he's around more) the measuring sticks for the other characters. Therefore, [[Rattrap]] is a monstrously huge rat, the size of a large dog (indeed, the writers stated<sup id="cite_ref-0" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-0" title="">[1]</a></sup> that Season 1 Rattrap was 5' (1.5 m) tall). [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] is considerably larger than a real velociraptor, closer in size to a ''<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utahraptor" class="extiw" title="wikipedia:Utahraptor">Utahraptor</a>''. [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] is a rather small rhinoceros, and [[Optimus Primal]] is a roughly normal (or female) gorilla. However, [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] is a tiny specimen of T. rex (Perhaps a ''<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotyrannus" class="extiw" title="wikipedia:Nanotyrannus">Nanotyrannus</a>''? ).

In their interactions with adult [[Protohuman|protohumans]], the Transformer characters seem between twice and three times their height. Considering our ancestors really were smaller than modern humans, this is not extremely wrong, but it deserves noting.

===Artistic license===
====Variation for characterization====
[[Image:Prime has a huge head.jpg|left|150px|thumb|With 20th Anniversary Prime and Smallest Transformers Bumblebee, you can actually recreate this scene.]]
Some scale problems are for the sake of characterization. For example, Optimus Prime is routinely shown as thoroughly gargantuan, several stories in height, and capable of cradling humans in his palm. If he's the size of a real truck, Prime in robot mode should be 8–10 m (25'–30') tall, at best. He's drawn large because he's a leader character.

Conversely, [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] is sometimes shown only a few feet taller than an average human, while in reality he would be 3–5 m (10'–15') tall (the Marvel comic actually states he's 15' tall {{storylink|Plight of the Bumblebee!|Plight of the Bumblebee!}}). He's drawn small because he's a human-friendly character, and a junior member of the Autobots.

With fighter jet alternate modes, the [[Seeker|Seekers]] should be among the largest everyday Transformers and would ''tower'' over their Autobot adversaries; instead, the animation depicts characters such as [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] as about the same height. Though jets are much larger than cars, they're drawn the same height so the battles appear fair. (And also to make it easier to animate; blocking a shot where characters differ radically in height is difficult.)

In a related vein, sometimes Transformers are able to enter human buildings, fitting through their doors and able to run up their staircases without crashing through. {{storylink|B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.}} A cast that couldn't enter buildings would be grossly inconvenient for telling some stories, so the animators fudge things.

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====Intentionally strange scale====
[[Image:MarvelUS-01.jpg|right|200px|thumb|One side makes you larger, one side makes you small. (Op's been noshing on the first side too much.)]]
Sometimes artists draw a character at a different size [[Author intent|intentionally]]. For example, on the cover of the [[The Transformers (comic issue)|first issue]] of [[The Transformers (Marvel Comics)|the original ''Transformers'' comics series]], Optimus Prime is extremely huge compared to the highway, bridge, and normal cars. ([[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] is bigger than usual, too.) This is purely for dramatic effect.

Another notable example is the splash screen for the "[http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html World of the TRANSFORMERS]" website, which depicts [[Optimus Primal]] (in his original gorilla body) as the same size as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|G1 Optimus Prime]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Movie Optimus Prime]], directly contradicting the size difference seen in "[[Optimal Situation]]" and elsewhere (except for [[Robot Masters]]).

Artwork for the ''[[:Image:VaderVsPrime.jpg|strange]] [[:Image:Megatronvsluke.jpg|images]], with humans and Transformers standing the same height.

[[Image:World of the Transformers ent.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Meet the Supreme class Munky Optimus Primal.]]
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===The 2007 ''Transformers'' movie===
[[Image:Moviescale1.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Scale is absolutely not an issue in the movie. Riiight.]]
The creators of the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]] took great pains to avoid out-of-scale issues. (Well, greater than previous franchises.) This is sometimes reflected in the choice of vehicle or the design of their robot mode. E.g., [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] is an extended-hood cab in order to have more mass with which to make a taller robot mode. [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]'s robot mode is nearly as wide as it is tall, with shorter, digitigrade legs, so the massive jet-former won't end up twice as tall as Optimus. In the case of [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], his huge alternate mode simply results in a hulking, towering robot mode.

There are still minor scale issues to be found, though. For example, Optimus Prime can hold both [[Sam Witwicky|Sam]] and [[Mikaela Banes|Mikaela]] in one hand. Comparing this shot with when he picks up [[Archibald Witwicky]]'s glasses a few minutes later, it seems the glasses have lenses a foot (30cm) in diameter. This is a visual cheat so the glasses are visible to the audience. There's also debate about whether [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]]'s head could compact itself into a slim mobile phone. The [[Movie (toyline)|movie-franchise toys]], meanwhile, are only intermittently consistent (particularly since some of the secondary ones are redecos of toys from previous lines), with the largest contrast among the "primary" toys being between Deluxe Class [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], a motorcycle, and Voyager Class Decepticons with helicopters as their [[Alternate mode|alternate modes]], such as [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] and [[Incinerator (Movie)|Incinerator]]. However, many of the wheeled vehicles are close to 1:35 scale, although Deluxe Class [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] and 1977 [[Bumblebee (Movie)|Bumblebee]] are ''obviously'' not the same scale.
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==Official scale guides ==
[[Image:Tfcartoonscaleguideic1.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Official Scale Guides]]
[[Image:Beastwarsscalepreliminary.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Beast Wars Season 1 scale guide]]
Animators and comic book artists received official scale guides showing relative and (in some cases) absolute heights. Some of these were published in the character model guides ''[[Transformers: The Ark|The Ark]]'' and ''[[The Ark II — A Compendium of Japanese Character Designs| The Ark II]].'' Though they were sometimes ignored, they still give insight into the official scale of characters in Generation 1. However, even here, there are problems. Devastator in the Season One scale guide was approximately 2.5 times the height of Optimus Prime, but by Season Two he was somewhat less than twice Prime's height.

''Beast Wars'' likewise had an official scale guide, which appeared as a bonus on the DVD set of Season 2. Despite this guide, the series writers have indicated some measure of disregard for relative scale, when it suits the needs of dramatic tension. <sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference"><a href="#cite_note-1" title="">[2]</a></sup>. Thus, Optimal Optimus is ''ungodly'' tall in his first appearance, later reduced to perhaps two times the height of the rest of the cast.
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==External links==
*[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/6db411e03e75a342?dmode=source Estimated "real-life" heights for several Transformers, derived from the size of their alt-modes, archived from alt.toys.transformers on groups.google.com]

==References==
<ol class="references"><li id="cite_note-0">[#cite_ref-0" title="">↑</a> <a href="http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/8227a6ca84c0238d Bob Forward gives Rattrap's height from the show bible]
<li id="cite_note-1">[#cite_ref-1" title="">↑</a> <a href="http://www.electric-escape.net/tf/conventions/BotCon-98/Robert-Powers?PHPSESSID=a5442542eb8ff33b34a2fcd4127bd978 BotCon 98 report]</ol>
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