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The Transformers (issue)

2025-06-14T07:02:37Z

Zackmak: /* Production notes */

{{disambig2|the first comic issue of the first comic series about Transformers|other uses of ''The Transformers''|Transformers (disambiguation)}}
{{comicstory|
|seriesissue=[[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|''The Transformers'' (US)]] #1
|next=Power Play!
|seriesissue2=[[The Transformers (Marvel comic)#Marvel UK|''The Transformers'' (UK)]] #1–2
|next2=Power Play!
|image=MarvelUS-01.jpg
|caption=[[Smallest Transforming Transformers|Largest Transforming Transformers]] Optimus Prime! One of six blind-packed $500,000,000 toys!
|title="The Transformers"
|publisher=[[Marvel Comics]]
|date=[[May 8]], [[1984]] ("on sale" [[May 29]], 1984)
|coverdate=September 1984
|plot=[[Bill Mantlo]]
|script=[[Ralph Macchio]]
|pencils=[[Frank Springer]]
|inks=[[Kim DeMulder]]
|colors=[[Nelson Yomtov]]
|lettering=[[Michael Higgins]], [[Rick Parker]]
|editor=[[Bob Budiansky]]
|continuity=[[Marvel Comics continuity]]
|packaged with=|packaged with=[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Universe (2008)|Optimus Prime]]
}}

'''A group of sentient warring robots crash-lands on Earth four million years ago. When they awake in the present day, their battle begins anew.'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Marvel issue 1 Cybertron.jpg|left|thumb|upright=1.66]]
On the [[Saturn]]-sized mechanical world of [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], life has evolved not through carbon bonding, but via "[[Atechnogenesis|naturally-occurring gears, levers, and pulleys]]". The resultant sentient robots, the [[Autobot]]s, live in peace for many eons, until some of their number fall victim to a lust for power. Rallying behind the banner of the powerful [[Megatron (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Megatron]], these "[[Decepticon]]s" rebuild their bodies, allowing them to [[transformation|transform]] into vehicles and weapons of destruction, and declare war on the Autobots, intending to conquer the planet and rebuild it as a cosmic dreadnought. The Autobots adopt the ability of transformation as well, but struggle to repel the Decepticon onslaught until a leader emerges from the city of [[Iacon (polity)|Iacon]]: the wise and powerful [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]]. Under his leadership, the scattered Autobots are successfully united to become an effective fighting force... and thus, an [[Great War (G1)|all-consuming war]] rages across the planet for a thousand years, while the planet itself—dislodged from its orbit by the titanic battles—spins out of control through the cosmos.

Eventually, the Autobots learn that an [[asteroid belt]] lies in Cybertron's path, threatening the planet with destruction. Optimus Prime and a specially-chosen group of Autobots set out aboard a huge spacecraft dubbed the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]] to clear a path through the asteroids... but their preparations are observed by the Decepticon spy [[Ravage (G1)|Ravage]], allowing the Decepticons to plot against them. The Autobots go on to successfully complete their mission, after which the Decepticons launch an attack against them, boarding the Ark and easily overwhelming the weakened warriors. Facing inevitable defeat, Optimus Prime sets the Ark on a suicide course towards the third planet of the solar system: prehistoric [[Earth]]. The ship crashes into a [[Mount St. Hilary|volcano]], and all aboard are knocked offline.

[[File:Combat deck marvel 1.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Combat Deck bought a junker lot from eBay.]]
Four million years later, the volcano erupts, reactivating the Ark's dormant [[Aunty|computer]]. Launching a probe to scan the planet, the computer proves unable to detect Earth's carbon-based [[human]] and animal life, believing instead that humanity's vehicles and machines are its dominant "life form." Under this mistaken belief, the computer sets about rebuilding and reactivating the ship's occupants, reconfiguring their alternate modes to match Earth's machines. Damaged, the computer is unable to tell friend from foe, and restores both Autobots and Decepticons alike. After [[Introdump|checking themselves over]], the Decepticons make a hasty exist to search for sources of [[Transformer fuel|fuel]], leaving the Autobots to set about attempting to repair the Ark. Reviewing the footage the ship's probe has gathered from across the planet, the Autobots learn of Earth's machines, and—still labouring under the misconception that they are living beings—Optimus Prime vows to protect these "lifeforms" and their planet from the Decepticon menaces he has accidentally unleashed upon them.

In a [[Portland|nearby city]], human teenager [[Buster Witwicky (G1)|Buster Witwicky]] returns home from school late, having stayed behind to catch up on the library work involved in his literary scholarship. His father, mechanic [[Sparkplug Witwicky]], despairs; he loves his son, but the Witwicky patriarch is a blue-collar guy who sees little value in literature and the arts, and wishes Buster would learn a manual trade so that he'll be able to make a living with his hands. Though a little annoyed that Buster has arrived home too late to help with work in the family auto-shop, Sparkplug gives the boy permission to head out and meet his friends at the [[Community Drive-In|drive-in theater]].

[[File:TheTransformers drivein battle.jpg|left|thumb|upright=2.25]]

As night falls, Optimus Prime sends a team of five Autobots, under the command of [[Prowl (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Prowl]], to scout out the new world and make contact with the natives. The group comes upon the drive-in theater, and, mistaking it for some kind of religious ritual, heads in to make contact with the "natives"—unaware that their movements have been spotted by Decepticon [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] and reported back to Megatron. Eager to be the first to greet an Earthling, the young [[Bumblebee (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Bumblebee]] over-enthusiastically nudges the car in which Buster, his girlfiend [[Jesse (G1)|Jesse]], and his best friend [["O"]] are sitting, and just as the three kids climb out to see what has happened, the Decepticons attack, intent on keeping their foes from establishing an alliance with the planet's natives. The villains' opening salvo injures Bumblebee, and the other Autobots reluctantly transform and defend themselves, turning the drive-in into a battlefield. During the battle, Prowl realizes that the automobiles are not alive at all, but the humans fleeing from them are; the Autobots retreat to draw the Decepticons' fire away from the apparently defenseless fleshlings, forced to leave Bumblebee behind.

Having heard the damaged Bumblebee cry out in pain when struck, a confused Buster tries to help, and ends up "driving" him away from the battlefield, back to the Witwicky garage. The noise of their arrival awakens Sparkplug, who is at first delighted to find Buster apparently showing an interest in auto-repair... but not so amused when the car cries out that it needs help, because it is dying...

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
{{collist|2|
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Optimus Prime]] (4)
* [[Council of Autobot Elders|Autobot elder]] (5)
* [[Prowl (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Prowl]] (11)
* [[Ironhide (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ironhide]] (14)
* [[Cliffjumper (G1)|Cliffjumper]] (15)
* [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]] (16)
* [[Huffer (G1)|Huffer]] (17)
* [[Bumblebee (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Bumblebee]] (18)
* [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] (19)
* [[Brawn (G1)|Brawn]] (20)
* [[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (21)
* [[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]] (22)
* [[Jazz (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Jazz]] (23)
* [[Gears (G1)|Gears]] (24)
* [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] (25)
* [[Windcharger (G1)|Windcharger]] (26)
* [[Ratchet (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ratchet]] (27)
* [[Wheeljack (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Wheeljack]] (28)
* [[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] (29)
}}

|c2=
* [[Ravage (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Ravage]] (1)
* [[Megatron (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Megatron]] (2)
* [[Soundwave (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Soundwave]] (3)
* [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]] (6)
* [[Skywarp (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Skywarp]] (7)
* [[Frenzy (G1)|Frenzy]] (8)
* [[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] (9)
* [[Starscream (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Starscream]] (10)
* [[Thundercracker (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Thundercracker]] (12)
* [[Buzzsaw (G1)|Buzzsaw]] (13)

|c3=
* [[Buster Witwicky (G1)|Buster Witwicky]] (30)
* [[Sparkplug Witwicky]] (31)
* [[Hitchhiker]] (32)
* Cashier (33)
* [[Jesse (G1)|Jesse]] (34)
* [["O"]] (35)
}}

==Quotes==
[[File:TheTransformers decepticon boarding party.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.66]]
[[File:TheTransformers suicidal heading.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.66|"Uh, Prime, are you sure you've thought this through?"<br>"SORRY, WHAT? CAN'T HEAR YOU, PROWL! TOO BUSY SACRIFICING MYSELF!"<br>"* sigh* "]]
[[File:Glassgas.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.66]]

"We have lived peacefully with the Autobots for eons, slowly, '''secretly''' gathering our strength and pursuing our technology. Now we shall strike at those who have brought the stagnation of peace and plenty to Cybertron. They shall learn the way of conflict... the way of war... the way of Megatron."
:—'''Megatron''', have you thought this through?

"'''Strike! Strike!''' With all the might at our command! Death to the Autobots and the decay they stand for!"
:—'''Megatron''' launches his war

"The Ark and its secrets must never fall into enemy hands, so I plotted an alternate course that would take us on a suicidal heading... directly into the third planet of this system. Farewell, my friend. Though we die, at least our enemies are taken with us."
:—'''Optimus Prime''' pushes the fatal button

"Let us never forget our primary purpose -- to spare this world from the scourge we have unwittingly unleashed upon it!"
:—'''Optimus Prime''''s "we" is more of an "I"

"Bumblebee, come back! We must reconnoiter first!"<br>
"You can't check the exuberance of youth, Prowl!"
:—'''Prowl''' and '''Hound'''

"I had hoped to Optimus we could avoid this, but... it seems our adversaries have left us little choice. Assume defensive configurations."<br>
"Now yer talkin' my lingo."
:—'''Prowl''' and '''Brawn'''

"So, '''Starscream''', you strike at me because you think isolation makes me vulnerable? You have obviously never flown in the face of my glass-gas gun!"<br>
"Yarrgh! The gas coats me, making my metal brittle and breakable as glass!"
:—'''Cliffjumper''' and '''Starscream''' team up to tell the reader how CJ's special gun works

==Notes==
===Production notes===
[[File:Generic autobots marvel 1.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.5|Generic robots use the color schemes of Bumblebee, Trailbreaker, Sunstreaker, Hound, and Optimus Prime; the last of these, in the bottom right, bears a resemblance to Optimus and might be intended to represent a "pre-war" incarnation of him.]]
[[File:Generics marvel 1.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.5|Since he's called out in the caption box, it's probably fair to assume that the robot armed with the [[ion blaster]] represents Optimus Prime, albeit miscolored. On his right is a robot using Sideswipe's design, apparently armed with a [[fusion cannon]].]]
* ''The Transformers'' was initially conceived as a [[The Transformers Four-Issue Limited Series|four-issue limited series]]. At the start of its production, [[character model]]s had not been finalized for the majority of the cast; as such, for the first two issues of the series, the appearances of the Autobots and Decepticons is quite variable, based either on early designs created for the first animated commercials (Optimus Prime, Sideswipe, Prowl, Jazz, Megatron, the three Decepticon jets, Soundwave, Laserbeak and Buzzsaw) or on the toys themselves, and their [[package art]] (most evident on characters like Ironhide and Ratchet). The finalized models were ready in time for [[Prisoner of War!|issue #3]], but the early color schemes used in these issues for certain characters—like Optimus Prime's lack of a silver stripe on his torso, Megatron's black helmet, Starscream's blue chest-vents, and the entirely-purple Soundwave—would persist throughout most if not all of the comic's run, in some cases becoming hallmarks of the characters' Marvel appearances.
* In addition to these teething troubles, artist [[Frank Springer]] and colorist [[Nelson Yomtov]] played fast and loose with what robot and technology designs they ''did'' have. Multiples of Optimus Prime's [[Combat Deck (G1)|Combat Deck]] are used to represent the "revival drones" that rebuilt the Ark's crew on pages 11–12, while a [[Onebox component]] like that used by Ironhide and Ratchet appears mounted to the hull of the Ark, firing on the asteroids, on page 6. Further, a range broad of [[generic]] Transformers appear throughout the issue; some are wholly original (such as the one prominently displayed on the title page that fans would go on to dub "[[Big Red (G1)|Big Red]]"), but others use and abuse existing characters' designs and/or color schemes (as seen in the images at right). As the brand was in its infancy at this stage, some of these might have been [[authorial intent|intended]] to represent actual characters, but whether they do so is probably best left [[Personal canon|up to you]].
* Both an early advertisement featured in comic news magazines (such as "David Anthony Kraft's Comics Interview #11, May issue; and ''The Comic Reader'' #218, June issue) and the announcement for the miniseries in ''Marvel Age'' #17 (August cover date) stated ''The Transformers'' would begin in April 1984 ('''possibly''' intended to ship April 3 and be "on sale" April 24, working backwards from other titles in the ''Marvel Age'' #17 checklist). However, the U.S. copyright office filing for the issue places its publication at May 8, which in turn puts its "on sale" date at May 29. '''Why''' the series apparently launched a whole month after it was '''supposed''' to come out, we dunno...

===Continuity notes===
[[File:Introdump decepticons marvelus01.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.5|It's never too early in the morning to infodump!]]
* Along with the [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1|first episode of the cartoon]], this issue establishes several iconic aspects of the cartoon and the entire [[Transformers brand]]. The planet Cybertron and its city Iacon both appear in many other media and continuities. The crash of the Ark and the four-million-year slumber of its inhabitants likewise recur in several other versions of the Generation 1 story.
* As is only natural, some of this issue's early details would be retconned away or simply ignored as the series progressed and expanded its mythology, including the idea of Cybertron as "Saturn-sized," and the idea that the Transformers had "naturally evolved". In particular, this origin would be source of much mockery in the earlier days of online fandom, but modern media went on to dub the idea of spontaneously evolving mechanical life "[[atechnogenesis]]" and offer it up as one of several possible-but-unverified origins for the Transformers, who ''themselves'' did not know if it was true or not.
* Megatron's reason for starting the whole dang war is made pretty explicit in the text: He's bored. However, many years down the line, toward the end of the series' run Simon Furman would raise the claim that ''actually'' the Decepticons are a sub-species of Cybertronian with a built-in need for war, and further still in ''Generation 2'' that all Decepticons are descendants of the ''evil'' Liege Maximo.
* Megatron's plan to turn the planet into a "cosmic dreadnought" would be further explored in the Marvel UK story "[[Legion of the Lost!]]".
* Megatron's statement that "one of our mightiest is missing" plants the seed for [[Shockwave (G1)/Marvel Comics continuity|Shockwave]]'s debut in [[The Last Stand|issue #4]]. This brief mention parallels the character's cameo appearance in cartoon's [[More than Meets the Eye, Part 1|pilot episode]], which likewise set the stage for his full-fledged appearance in the [[Transport to Oblivion (episode)|first regular episode]] of the series proper. Shockwave was among the first, if not ''the'' first, of the second-year toys to be released.

===Real-life references===
* [[Mount St. Hilary]] is obviously inspired by the 1980 eruption of [[Mount St. Helens]].
* Unlike the contemporaneous cartoon, which was always shy about specifics, the comic immediately lets us know that the action is set in the state of [[Oregon]]. Issues #5 and #7 will later name [[Portland]] as the location of Sparkplug's garage, presumably making it the unnamed city we see here and elsewhere in the next few issues.
* A [[hitchhiker]] compares the sound of a team of Autobots driving down the highway to the [[Indy 500]].
* The Autobots visit a drive-in movie theater, which in the early 80s were still a thing.
* The cover for the Marvel UK ''Transformers'' #2 edition is an homage to the famous cover of EC's [https://www.comics.org/issue/10134/cover/4/ ''Weird Science'' #16]. The [[Martian]]s of ''[[Mars Attacks: The Transformers|Mars Attacks]]'' were inspired by the same cover.

===Continuity and plotting errors===
* It's said in this issue that the war between the Transformers ''knocked Cybertron out of its orbit'', which sounds...very improbable because of the sheer magnitude of force required for something like that to happen; Cybertron would have likely been completely obliterated before it would've been knocked out of its orbit.
* Numerous [[generic]]s show up aboard the Ark, when per story continuity, it should only have the 18 crew members shown here (plus, according to [[The Last Stand|issue #4]], the future Dinobots, whose characters presumably didn't exist yet in real-life terms). That said, the art on page 12 seems to provide a possible "out" for this by showing what looks to be a huge pile of unrepaired Transformers between behind Optimus and Megatron as they re-awaken.
* Page 10: "The drone swiftly plots its return to the Ark"—it's not clear from context if "it" is the jet scanned by the probe, or the probe itself. Neither makes a lot of sense.
* A solitary reference is made to "Aunty" as the name of the Ark's computer. This was an early name conceived by [[Jim Shooter]] when he wrote the original treatment for the Transformers backstory, at a time when the spaceship itself did not yet have a name. During hand-written re-writes of his treatment, Shooter replaced the name "Aunty" with "The Ark," which came to be treated as the name of the ship itself, with the apparent intent being to make the computer and ship synonymous with one another. Consequently, the inclusion of the outdated "Aunty" name in this issue appears to be in error; it would never be used in the US series again, but did reoccur in [[Raiders of the Last Ark|one early UK-original story]].

===Artwork and technical errors===
Hoo-boy.
[[File:Contentedfools.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5]]
* The iconic cover of this issue depicts Optimus Prime in a design that appears to have been based on a reference image in an early [[character model|model sheet]] that was offered on [[eBay]] in 2016, <ref name="modelsheets">[https://web.archive.org/web/20160805095324/http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/93711-more-unseen-tftm-designs-plus-some-early-colors-and-some-show-design/page-11#entry3191211 D.M on The Allspark Forums, 01 April 2016 (via the Internet Archive)]</ref> which in turn is based on an early [[prototype]] or mock-up for his original toy's ''[[Diaclone]]'' predecessor depicted in an early ''Diaclone'' catalog. <ref name="diaclonecatalogs">[https://web.archive.org/web/20151017201739/http://1501bc.com/pretf/pictures/tfdiac6b.jpg Diaclone catalog scan, formerly at 1501bc.com (via the Internet Archive)]</ref>
* Page 1: The third sentence has an "its/it's" typo: "It's content was entirely--mechanical."
* Page 2: In his very first appearance, parts of Soundwave's backpack, arms and legs are colored red.
[[File:M01 tomaandi.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5|Jazz experimented with [[electrum]] before [[The Golden Lagoon (episode)|it was cool]].]]
* Page 5: As he and Optimus Prime report to the Autobot Elders, Jazz is colored like Bumblebee. Additionally, he is drawn to be ''extremely'' toy-based, complete with Earthly car parts, right down to having the toy's conjoined uni-feet, and has two missile launchers instead of one.
[[File:Generic decepticons marvel 1.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5|...[[Nemesis Prime (G1)|Nemesis Prime]], is that you?]]
* Page 7:
** Panel 3: As the Decepticons first strike the Ark, Optimus Prime is colored almost entirely red.
** Panel 5: A blue-chested, red-legged Optimus Prime is among the invading Decepticons! In the same panel, Optimus himself is colored entirely red and is missing his chest windows. Prime's thought "Our firepower - no match" is missing its punctuation.
** None of the invading Decepticons resemble the ten Decepticons later shown to compose Megatron's crew.
* Page 8: Prowl is missing his door/wings, though one could retcon this as being his "Cybertronian" body.
* Page 12:
** The robots undergoing repair don't really correspond to any Transformer known to be present.
** The speech bubble beginning "The Autobots, too" is pointing to Optimus, but it seems to be being said by Megatron: it refers to the Autobots as if the speaker is not one, and the line continues into Megatron's line at the start of the next page.
* Page 13: Soundwave converts to his tape player form and flies off with the jets! Or starts to, at least—he's not shown in the next panel as the Decepticons flee the volcano.
* In the giant two-page Autobot spread:
** Sideswipe seems to have a made-up or at least off-model head.
** Wheeljack's "ears" are kind of folded up against his head.
** Bluestreak is missing his door/wings and shoulder rockets.
** Gears is a strange alternate model bearing almost no resemblance to his toy or later design.
** Hound, Wheeljack, and Sideswipe are all missing their shoulder launchers.
** Trailbreaker is missing his force field projector.
** Due to the overhead perspective, Windcharger looks taller than Hound.
[[File:Gearsg1firstappearance.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5|"Follow your dreams, you can reach your goals; I'm living proof. Beefcake. Beefcake!"]]
* Page 16:
** Panel 1: Bluestreak is colored like Prowl.
** Panel 1: Sideswipe is colored like Sunstreaker.
** Panel 1: Gears seems to have an entirely new, entirely different model.
** Panel 2: Bumblebee suddenly has the toy-based "backing plate" behind his head, whereas before he didn't.
** Panel 3: Not all of the silhouettes correspond to actual characters.
** Panel 4: Sunstreaker's "ears" are misshapen.
* Page 17:
** Panel 5: Sparkplug's "okay" is missing a period at the end.
** Panel 6: Sparkplug is meant to say "learnin'," to parallel the way he drops the g from the end of "readin'" in the first half of his sentence, but the word is written with the g... ''and'' the apostrophe meant to signify its absence.
* Page 19: When an Autobot asks Prowl "why would machines worship moving pictures of strange objects?", Prowl identifies the speaker as Bumblebee, but the art shows the speech bubble emanating from Brawn. It's not clear which is in error.
* Page 21: Buster refers to Bumblebee as a Volkswag'''o'''n; that should be [[Volkswagen|Volkswag'''e'''n]].
* Page 22: Starscream's entire cockpit cowling is colored as though it were a canopy.
* Page 23:
** Panel 2: When Ravage confronts him, Hound has ''two'' shoulder launchers.
** Panels 5-6: Soundwave is colored like Megatron as he attacks Prowl and Cliffjumper. His gun is missing its narrow tip, looking more like Megatron's fusion cannon, which is likely what caused the coloring error.
* Page 24: Cliffjumper's arms are colored white as Prowl orders the retreat.

===UK printing===
[[File:TheTransformers action transfers.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.5]]

'''Issue #1:'''
* '''Published:''' [[September 20|20th September]], 1984
* '''[[Back-up strips]]:''' ''Machine Man'' ({{TFUK|Introducing Machine Man|"Introducing Machine Man"}} & {{TFUK|Byte of the Binary Bug!|"Byte of the Binary Bug!"}} part 1)
* '''Free gift:''' "Action Transfers"; page 16 of the comic is a full-page pin-up of a street featuring Sparkplug's garage that the transfers can be stuck on to create action scenes ''(right)''
* '''Other features:''' Spot-the-difference contest to win a Jazz figure; pin-up of Prowl, Jazz, and Sideswipe, made using a screengrab from the original ''Transformers'' comic book animated commercial; "Robot Round-Up," a two-page text feature looking at modern advancements in robotics
* The letters printed in issue #1 of the UK comic were provided by pupils from Greycourt School (in Ham, near Richmond in South West London) who were visiting the Marvel UK offices. Their visit was written up in a magazine published at the school. The teacher who arranged the visit was Stephen Payne, former president of the [[Doctor Who]] Appreciation Society and soon to be publisher of Visual Imagination Magazines (Starburst & TV Zone). <ref>Extract from Greycourt school 1984 sci fi mag detailing visit to the Marvel UK comics offices that resulted in comments appearing in the letters page of Marvel UK Transformers #1 https://www.flickr.com/photos/48819633@N05/5297859701/</ref>
[[File:TheTransformers autobot introdump.jpg|thumb|upright=1.5]]

'''Issue #2:'''
* '''Published:''' [[October 4|4th October]], 1984
* '''Backup strips:''' ''Machine Man'' ("Byte of the Binary Bug!" part 2)
* '''Free Gift:''' More "Action Transfers"
* '''Other features:''' "Design a Decepticon" contest to win a Decepticon jet figure; "Robot Round-Up"
* While the first issue was published in full-colour, this issue introudces the half-colour, half-black-and-white format the UK series will adhere to until [[Repeat Performance!|issue #27]]. Almost the entire ''Transformers'' strip is in black-and-white, with only the two pages of Buster returning home after school, and the Autobots departing on their survey mission, appearing in colour.
* The two-page spread of the Autobots introducing themselves ''(right)'' is omitted from the story, probably because the way the comic is laid out would have resulted in half of it being in black and white, and half in colour. New text captions added to the end of the preceding page and the start of the next to link them together. The spread ''is'' included in the issue, however, repurposed to become a full-colour pull-out poster, with the Transformers logo pasted over the two panels in the top-left corner (showing the Decepticons escapsing, and Prowl and Optimus watching them go). The spread would also be printed in this edited form in the [[Transformers Annual 1985|the 1985 annual]]. In a sense, this means the early UK continuity initially lacks an in-story list of the Autobots originally on Earth, making appearances by [[Red Alert (G1)|Red Alert]] in "[[The Enemy Within!]]" and [[Inferno (G1)|Inferno]] in "[[Decepticon Dam-Busters!]]" a ''weeeee'' bit easier to reconcile.

===Other trivia===
* This mini-series was printed on high-quality [[Mando paper]].
* On [[May 22]], the [https://groups.google.com/g/net.comics/c/TuupqbD-CBc/m/dgMOYd_32hwJ?hl=en first Usenet post about Transformers] is posted by Ted Nolan to net.comics, regarding this issue. Capsule review? "Worst comic of the year."
** In 2018, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AKb1Xw0ZbA&t=1633s TFU.INFO interviewed Ted Nolan about the post].
* The cover price is 75 cents, which would be about $1.80 when adjusted for inflation to 2017 dollars. Comics as an industry are rather notorious for their price increases over and above standard inflation; today, a standard [[IDW Publishing]] ''Transformers'' comic costs $3.99.
* The cover corner box, a staple of Marvel's covers from the 1970s through the mid-1990s, features a [[character model]] of Optimus Prime. A new, more dramatic pose would debut with the first ongoing issue ([[The New Order|issue #5]]).
* The cover banner that promotes this issue as "#1 IN A FOUR ISSUE LIMITED SERIES" would be spoofed for the [[End of the Road! (US)|final issue of the series]] ("#80 IN A FOUR ISSUE LIMITED SERIES"), and again for the [[The War to End All Wars, Part 5|final issue]] of the modern-day sequel ''[[The Transformers: Regeneration One|Regeneration One]]'' ("#100 IN A FOUR ISSUE LIMITED SERIES").
* Other latter-day references to this issue include:
** A loving homage in IDW's ''Robots in Disguise'' [[Primus: All Good Things|2012 Annual]]
** Various parodies and homages to its distinctly surreal cover art including an [[:File:TDOOP cvrRIA.jpg|incentive cover]] of "[[Transformers: The Death of Optimus Prime|The Death of Optimus Prime]]", [[:File:RG1 100 cvrB.jpg|Cover B]] of the [[The War to End All Wars, Part 5|final issue]] of ''[[The Transformers: Regeneration One|Regeneration One]]'', a [[:File:TAAO1 cvrREB.jpg|convention exclusive cover]] for ''[[The Transformers: Till All Are One|Till All Are One]]'' [[07:00:00|#1]], the "cover" for "[[The Inexorable March]]", and a [[:File:TFUnicron1 cvrRIC.jpg|retailer incentive cover]] to ''[[Transformers: Unicron|Unicron]]'' [[Last Stand (Unicron)|#1]].

===Bot Roster===
* Autobots: 18 active.
* Decepticons: 10 active; Shockwave missing in action.

===Courtesy of my...===
[[File:Tellhimwhodefeatedyouthisday.jpg|thumb|upright=1.2]]
* Laserbeak mentions his [[Optic weaponry|optical lasers]].
* Sunstreaker boasts about his ground-to-air [[missile]]s.
* Cliffjumper talks up his [[glass gas]], later using it to damage Starscream and Thundercracker.
* Jazz says he's ready to fight with his [[photon rifle]] and overhead [[flamethrower]]s.
* Trailbreaker mentions having to use his [[Force field|force-field]] projector to protect himself from Wheeljack's [[shrapnel shell]]s.
* Hound scares away Ravage with a [[Hologram|holographic missile]] projected from his [[turret gun]].
* Soundwave shoots at Prowl and Cliffjumper with his [[Concussion weapon|concussion cannon]].

===Covers (3)===
* '''US issue #1:''' gigantic Optimus Prime, tiny Starscream, Gears, Laserbeak and the Witwickys, by [[Bill Sienkiewicz]].
* '''UK issue #1:''' Soundwave and Buzzsaw kick Prime's ass, by [[Jerry Paris]].
* '''UK issue #2:''' the Autobots depart the Ark, by [[John Ridgway]]; inspired by the cover of ''{{w|Weird Science (comics)|Weird Science}}'' [[wikia:eccomics:Weird Science Vol 1 16|issue #16]] (November, 1952)

<gallery>
File:MarvelUS-01.jpg|'''US issue #1''' – First he will crush the planes, then he will crush the giant floating heads.
File:MarvelUK-001.jpg|'''UK issue #1''' – Is Soundwave on [[Ore-13|Ultra-Energon]]?
File:MarvelUK-002.jpg|'''UK issue #2''' – Is this girl '''that''' into her doll that she didn't see the [[Michael Bay|giant f* cking robots]]?
</gallery>

===Reprints===
<gallery>
File:Tfcolcom01.jpg|'''[[Transformers Collected Comics|Collected Comics]] #1'''<br>(Marvel UK, 1985)
File:TFUSCollectedComics1StoryBegins.jpg|[[The Transformers: Collected Comics 1 - The Story Begins...|'''''Collected Comics'' #1: ''The Story Begins...''''']]<br>(Marvel US, 1985)
File:FederalSuperSpecial.jpg|'''''The Transformers: A Federal Super Special'''''<br>(Federal Publishing Company, 1985)
File:Complete works 1 cover.jpg|'''[[The Transformers: The Complete Works Part 1|''The Transformers: The Complete Works'' Part 1]]'''<br>(Marvel UK, 1986)
File:Die tf 01.jpg|'''[[Die Transformer issue 1|''Die Transformer'' #1]]'''<br>(Condor Verlag, 1986)
File:Transformers Digest 01-cover.jpg|'''[[The Transformers Comics Magazine issue 1|''The Transformers Comics Magazine'' #1]]'''<br>(Marvel US, 1986)
File:Titan-BeginningsSC.jpg|'''''[[Transformers: Beginnings (G1)|Transformers: Beginnings]]'' TPB'''<br>(Titan Books, 2003)
File:Titan-BeginningsHC.jpg|'''''Transformers: Beginnings'' HC'''<br>(Titan Books, 2003)
File:MarvelUS-01-25years.jpg|Pack-in with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Universe (2008)|25th Anniversary Optimus Prime]] toy<br>(Hasbro, 2009)
File:Classic Transformers Vol1.jpg|'''''[[Classic Transformers]] [[Classic Transformers Volume 1|Volume 1]]'''''<br>(IDW Publishing, 2008)
File:TFClassicsVol1.JPG|'''''[[The Transformers Classics]], [[The Transformers Classics, Vol. 1|Vol. 1]]'''''<br>(IDW Publishing, 2011)
File:TF 30thAnniversaryColl.jpg|'''''[[The Transformers 30th Anniversary Collection]]'''''<br>(IDW Publishing, 2013)
File:TF1 100PennyPress.jpg|'''''One Hundred Penny Press Edition'''''<br>(IDW Publishing, 2014)
File:ClassicComicCollection1.jpg|'''''Transformers: Classic Comic Collection Volume 1'''''<br>(Chrirpy Bird, 2015)
File:DefinitiveG1Collection v1.jpg|'''''[[Transformers: The Definitive G1 Collection]] Volume 1: Power Play'''''<br>(Hachette Partworks Ltd, 2017)
File:HXClassicsVol1.jpg|'''''[[The Transformers Classics#Japanese reprints|The Transformers: Classics]] Vol. 1'''''<br>(Hero-X, 2018)
File:TF1 40th Cover A.jpg|'''''Transformers'' #1 40th Anniversary Edition<br>Cover A'''<br>(Image Comics & Skybound Entertainment, 2024)
File:TF 1 40th Cover B.jpg|'''''Transformers'' #1 40th Anniversary Edition<br>Cover B'''<br>(Image Comics & Skybound Entertainment, 2024)
File:TF 1 40th Cover C.jpg|'''''Transformers'' #1 40th Anniversary Edition<br>Cover C'''<br>(Image Comics & Skybound Entertainment, 2024)
File:TF 1 40th Big Time Collectibles Cover A.jpg|'''''Transformers'' #1 40th Anniversary Edition<br>Big Time Collectibles exclusive A'''<br>(Image Comics & Skybound Entertainment, 2024)
File:TF 1 40th Big Time Collectibles Cover B.jpg|'''''Transformers'' #1 40th Anniversary Edition<br>Big Time Collectibles exclusive B'''<br>(Image Comics & Skybound Entertainment, 2024)
File:TF 1 40th Maximus Books N' More Cover.jpg|'''''Transformers'' #1 40th Anniversary Edition<br>Maximus Books N' More exclusive'''<br>(Image Comics & Skybound Entertainment, 2024)
File:TF 1 40th SuperManila Comic Con Cover.jpg|'''''Transformers'' #1 40th Anniversary Edition<br>SuperManila Comic Con exclusive'''<br>(Image Comics & Skybound Entertainment, 2024)
File:TF Compendium V1.jpg|'''''The Transformers Compendium Volume 1'''''<br>(Image Comics & Skybound Entertainment, 2025)
</gallery>

====Reprint notes====
* The UK ''Collected Comics'' #1 omits the double-page Autobot roll-call scene, as the original UK printing of the issue did (see [[#UK printing|UK printing]], above).
* ''The Complete Works'' reinstates the Autobot roll-call spread, but replaces the two panels in the corner with a single exterior shot of the Ark, re-used from [[Crisis of Command!|UK issue #42]], drawn by [[Geoff Senior]]. Presumably, this had to be done because Marvel UK either damaged or lost the original panels after removing them to edit the page into a poster for their original printing of the issue (again, see [[#UK printing|UK printing]]).
* The 2024 Image Comics facsimile reprint uses the IDW ''Transformers Classics'' version of the comic.

====IDW ''Transformers Classics'' edits====
For ''[[The Transformers Classics]]'' series of trade paperbacks, IDW Publishing "remastered" the coloring of the series with varying degrees of success. These changes were sometimes to fix errors, but often to alter characters' color schemes to make them resemble their toy and/or cartoon selves, and were rarely applied with consistency. IDW's recolored version was also used for Hachette's ''[[Transformers: The Definitive G1 Collection|The Definitive G1 Collection]]'' and Skybound's Transformers Compendium.
* Soundwave is recolored blue throughout the issue, erasing his standard Marvel purple color scheme, as well as correcting the coloring errors on pages 2 and 23.
* Page 1, panel 5: The blue thighs of the generic red robot (second from the left) are recolored to also be red.
* Page 3: Haphazard text recreation for the IDW reprint results in [[Michael Higgins]]' last name being misspelled "Hissins".
* Page 5: Jazz's colors are corrected as best they can be, changing him from incorrect yellow to white and blue.
* Page 7: Optimus's colors in panels 3 and 5 are largely corrected, though his pelvis remains blue.
* Page 15: Wheeljack is recolored to add a patch of green to his chest.
* Page 22, panel 4 and page 23, panel 1: For these two panels alone, Starscream is recolored into his finalized, predominantly white color scheme, as opposed to the early blue scheme he has in the rest of the issue.
* Page 23-24: For these two pages, Hound's legs are recolored from their standard Marvel solid blue to green with white thighs.

===Advertisements===
====US====
* ''The Last Starfighter'' (Inside front cover)
* Free [[Spider-Man]] Comic from Fig Newtons - between pages 4 & 5
* Olympic Sales Club - between pages 5 & 6
* Mile High Comics (2-page spread) - between pages 13 & 14
* Block of various Sketchy Things (I.E. Charles Atlas) - between pages 16 & 17
* Helen of Toy mail-in military scenes - between pages 22 & 23
* Marvel bonus certificate
* ''Muppets Take Manhattan'' storybook & record (Inside rear cover)
* ''[[Star Wars (franchise)|Star Wars]]'' home console video arcade cassette (Rear cover)

====UK====
'''Issue #1'''
* The ''Transformers'' toyline, spotlighting the [[Autobot Cars]], Autobot [[Mini-Vehicle]]s, [[Decepticon Planes]], and [[Mini-Cassette]]s.
* ''Indiana Jones'' #1
* ''The Savage Sword of Conan'' #85
* ''The Best Pals Club''

'''Issue #2'''
* Mail-away "[[Autobot (G2)|Robot Watch]]" offer
* Weetabix cereal home computer competition
* Grandreams 1985 hardback annuals
* The ''Transformers'' toyline
* Mail-away [[Spider-Man]] watches offer

==References==
{{reflist|2}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Transformers (issue)}}
[[Category:Marvel US issues]]
[[Category:Marvel UK issues]]
[[Category:Pack-in material]]
[[Category:Universe (2008)]]

Family Home Entertainment

2021-11-17T02:37:17Z

Zackmak: /* Notes */

{{factions|vhs|betamax|laserdisc|usa}}
{{picsneeded|missing covers}}
[[Image:Family Home Entertainment logo.jpg|frame|]]
[[Image:Avid Home Entertainment logo.jpg|frame|]]
'''Family Home Entertainment''' (also known as '''F.H.E.''') is an American [[home video]] distributor that released a number of [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1]] episodes on video (both VHS and Beta) during the 1980s, and was also responsible for the first home video release of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''. In addition to ''Transformers'', F.H.E. also released home video collections of other [[Sunbow Productions|Sunbow]] cartoons, including ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero]]''.

The company changed its name to ''International Video Entertainment'' in the mid '80s, and then again to ''Live Home Video'' in 1990, but all the while kept the F.H.E. brand working for them as a sub-division of the larger company. In 1991, '''Avid Home Entertainment''', another imprint of Live Home Video (dedicated for releasing budget titles from the archives of Live/IVE, Vestron Video, Carolco Pictures, and ITC Entertainment), released their own VHS of ''The Transformers: The Movie''. The company then changed its name again in 1995 to ''Live Entertainment'', then in 1998 to ''{{w|Artisan Entertainment}}'', and was eventually folded into {{w|Lionsgate Home Entertainment}} in 2003.

Perhaps the most memorable thing about the F.H.E. video releases was that the back of each box featured a comic strip summarizing the episode rather than a one paragraph plot description. With the strips being so extremely truncated, their coverage of the episode's plot was sometimes downright ''perplexing'' if the reader had no knowledge of the episode's content ("Why is Ravage mauling that guy in the wheelchair?"). They also had a memorable logo for all their video releases, featuring the company's "child's handwriting" logo and an INCREDIBLY LOUD "bwaaaaannnnnnnng" noise followed by a series of tones.
{{-}}

[[Image:VHSadvert.jpg|center|thumb|300px|You can own all these character models on VHS, for the low price of $24.95!]]

==Releases==
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 1: "[[More than Meets the Eye (mini-series)|More than Meets the Eye]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 2: "[[The Ultimate Doom]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 3: "[[S.O.S. Dinobots]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 4: "[[Fire in the Sky]]"''' (1985)
<center><gallery>
Image:FHE-MTMTE.jpg|'''Volume 1'''
Image:FHE-UltimateDoom.jpg|'''Volume 2'''
Image:FHE-SOSDinobots.jpg|'''Volume 3'''
Image:FHE-FireInTheSky.jpg|'''Volume 4'''
</gallery></center>
{{-}}

*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 5: "[[Divide and Conquer]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 6: "[[Roll for It]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 7: "[[Transport to Oblivion (episode)|Transport to Oblivion]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 8: "[[Fire on the Mountain (episode)|Fire on the Mountain]]"''' (1985)
<center><gallery>
Image:FHE-DivideAndConquer.jpg|'''Volume 5'''
Image:FHE-RollForIt.jpg|'''Volume 6'''
Image:FHE-TransportToOblivion.jpg|'''Volume 7'''
Image:FHE-FireOnTheMountain.jpg|'''Volume 8'''
</gallery></center>
{{-}}

*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 9: "[[War of the Dinobots]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 10: "[[Heavy Metal War]]"''' (1986)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 11: "[[Countdown to Extinction (episode)|Countdown to Extinction]]"''' (1986)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 12: "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]", "[[A Plague of Insecticons]]"''' (1986)
<center><gallery>
Image:FHE-WarOfTheDinobots.jpg|'''Volume 9'''
Image:FHE-HeavyMetalWar.jpg|'''Volume 10'''
Image:FHE-CountdownToExtinction.jpg|'''Volume 11'''
Image:FHE-SecretOfOmegaSupreme.jpg|'''Volume 12'''
</gallery></center>
{{-}}

*'''''The Transformers'' — [[The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 1|The Return of]] [[The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 2|Optimus Prime]]''' ([[September 17|9/17]]/1987<ref>http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat=19870911&id=YhAuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Ls8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3198,2881581</ref>)
*'''''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''''' ([[September 17|9/17/]]1987<ref>http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat=19870911&id=YhAuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Ls8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3198,2881581</ref>)
*'''''The Transformers'' — [[Five Faces of Darkness]]''' (1990, also available on laserdisc)
*'''''The Transformers: The Movie''''' (Avid Home Entertainment, 1991)
<center><gallery>
Image:FHE-ReturnOfOptimusPrime.jpg|'''The Return of Optimus Prime'''
Image:FHE-TFTM.jpg|'''''The Transformers: The Movie''''' (1987 release)
Image:FHE-FFoD.jpg|'''Five Faces of Darkness'''
Image:Avid-TFTM.jpg|'''''The Transformers: The Movie''''' (1991 Avid release)
</gallery></center>
{{-}}

== Notes ==
* The VHS releases of Volumes 3 through 11 came in two different types of packaging. The first releases came in larger red and black boxes which were close to the size of a plastic clam shell case, typical for early VHS releases. Later on the packaging was changed to a light gray sleeve with shrunk down versions of the front and back panels from the corresponding earlier box. At least one tape, "S.O.S. Dinobots", even has a third version with a black sleeve that has the artwork and comic strip taking up the entire front and back panels.
* Volumes 1 and 2 display an "Award of Excellence" from the {{w|Film Advisory Board}}, an organization which, by its own admission, does not judge the quality of material, looking instead for "family-friendly" fare (most other FAB award winners are direct-to-video).
* The entire box art, including the comic panels found on the back, were not from Marvel, even though the show was a Marvel production and the comic license was theirs, too. The artist was an independent, named Steve Vance, while another independent – Bill Black (from AC Comics) – helped. Steve would send him pencilled, lettered art with a copy marked up with color instructions, and he’d ink it and do the color separations.
* Quite possibly the very first Transformers and GIjoe crossover in ANY form, came from Steve Vance's mini-comic pamphlet promoting FHE's two VHS series of Transformers and GIjoe. It was a promotional piece intended for video retailers in 1985. The story had the Autobots teaming up with GIjoe to battle the Decepticons and Cobra who were trying to foil the shipment of FHE VHS tapes to stores.

[https://twitter.com/tfwiki/status/1408936518459273217]

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
*{{w|Family Home Entertainment}} at Wikipedia
*[http://www.tfrid.com/pictures/US/usvideos.html Archive of F.H.E. comic strips]

{{stub}}
[[Category:Home entertainment]]

Family Home Entertainment

2021-11-17T02:32:30Z

Zackmak: /* Notes */

{{factions|vhs|betamax|laserdisc|usa}}
{{picsneeded|missing covers}}
[[Image:Family Home Entertainment logo.jpg|frame|]]
[[Image:Avid Home Entertainment logo.jpg|frame|]]
'''Family Home Entertainment''' (also known as '''F.H.E.''') is an American [[home video]] distributor that released a number of [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1]] episodes on video (both VHS and Beta) during the 1980s, and was also responsible for the first home video release of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''. In addition to ''Transformers'', F.H.E. also released home video collections of other [[Sunbow Productions|Sunbow]] cartoons, including ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero]]''.

The company changed its name to ''International Video Entertainment'' in the mid '80s, and then again to ''Live Home Video'' in 1990, but all the while kept the F.H.E. brand working for them as a sub-division of the larger company. In 1991, '''Avid Home Entertainment''', another imprint of Live Home Video (dedicated for releasing budget titles from the archives of Live/IVE, Vestron Video, Carolco Pictures, and ITC Entertainment), released their own VHS of ''The Transformers: The Movie''. The company then changed its name again in 1995 to ''Live Entertainment'', then in 1998 to ''{{w|Artisan Entertainment}}'', and was eventually folded into {{w|Lionsgate Home Entertainment}} in 2003.

Perhaps the most memorable thing about the F.H.E. video releases was that the back of each box featured a comic strip summarizing the episode rather than a one paragraph plot description. With the strips being so extremely truncated, their coverage of the episode's plot was sometimes downright ''perplexing'' if the reader had no knowledge of the episode's content ("Why is Ravage mauling that guy in the wheelchair?"). They also had a memorable logo for all their video releases, featuring the company's "child's handwriting" logo and an INCREDIBLY LOUD "bwaaaaannnnnnnng" noise followed by a series of tones.
{{-}}

[[Image:VHSadvert.jpg|center|thumb|300px|You can own all these character models on VHS, for the low price of $24.95!]]

==Releases==
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 1: "[[More than Meets the Eye (mini-series)|More than Meets the Eye]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 2: "[[The Ultimate Doom]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 3: "[[S.O.S. Dinobots]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 4: "[[Fire in the Sky]]"''' (1985)
<center><gallery>
Image:FHE-MTMTE.jpg|'''Volume 1'''
Image:FHE-UltimateDoom.jpg|'''Volume 2'''
Image:FHE-SOSDinobots.jpg|'''Volume 3'''
Image:FHE-FireInTheSky.jpg|'''Volume 4'''
</gallery></center>
{{-}}

*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 5: "[[Divide and Conquer]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 6: "[[Roll for It]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 7: "[[Transport to Oblivion (episode)|Transport to Oblivion]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 8: "[[Fire on the Mountain (episode)|Fire on the Mountain]]"''' (1985)
<center><gallery>
Image:FHE-DivideAndConquer.jpg|'''Volume 5'''
Image:FHE-RollForIt.jpg|'''Volume 6'''
Image:FHE-TransportToOblivion.jpg|'''Volume 7'''
Image:FHE-FireOnTheMountain.jpg|'''Volume 8'''
</gallery></center>
{{-}}

*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 9: "[[War of the Dinobots]]"''' (1985)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 10: "[[Heavy Metal War]]"''' (1986)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 11: "[[Countdown to Extinction (episode)|Countdown to Extinction]]"''' (1986)
*'''''The Transformers'' — Volume 12: "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]", "[[A Plague of Insecticons]]"''' (1986)
<center><gallery>
Image:FHE-WarOfTheDinobots.jpg|'''Volume 9'''
Image:FHE-HeavyMetalWar.jpg|'''Volume 10'''
Image:FHE-CountdownToExtinction.jpg|'''Volume 11'''
Image:FHE-SecretOfOmegaSupreme.jpg|'''Volume 12'''
</gallery></center>
{{-}}

*'''''The Transformers'' — [[The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 1|The Return of]] [[The Return of Optimus Prime, Part 2|Optimus Prime]]''' ([[September 17|9/17]]/1987<ref>http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat=19870911&id=YhAuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Ls8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3198,2881581</ref>)
*'''''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''''' ([[September 17|9/17/]]1987<ref>http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1964&dat=19870911&id=YhAuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Ls8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=3198,2881581</ref>)
*'''''The Transformers'' — [[Five Faces of Darkness]]''' (1990, also available on laserdisc)
*'''''The Transformers: The Movie''''' (Avid Home Entertainment, 1991)
<center><gallery>
Image:FHE-ReturnOfOptimusPrime.jpg|'''The Return of Optimus Prime'''
Image:FHE-TFTM.jpg|'''''The Transformers: The Movie''''' (1987 release)
Image:FHE-FFoD.jpg|'''Five Faces of Darkness'''
Image:Avid-TFTM.jpg|'''''The Transformers: The Movie''''' (1991 Avid release)
</gallery></center>
{{-}}

== Notes ==
* The VHS releases of Volumes 3 through 11 came in two different types of packaging. The first releases came in larger red and black boxes which were close to the size of a plastic clam shell case, typical for early VHS releases. Later on the packaging was changed to a light gray sleeve with shrunk down versions of the front and back panels from the corresponding earlier box. At least one tape, "S.O.S. Dinobots", even has a third version with a black sleeve that has the artwork and comic strip taking up the entire front and back panels.
* Volumes 1 and 2 display an "Award of Excellence" from the {{w|Film Advisory Board}}, an organization which, by its own admission, does not judge the quality of material, looking instead for "family-friendly" fare (most other FAB award winners are direct-to-video).
* The entire box art, including the comic panels found on the back, were not from Marvel, even though the show was a Marvel production and the comic license was theirs, too. The artist was an independent, named Steve Vance, while another independent – Bill Black – helped. Steve would send him pencilled, lettered art with a copy marked up with color instructions, and he’d ink it and do the color separations.
* Quite possibly the very first Transformers and GIjoe crossover in ANY form, came from Steve Vance's mini-comic pamphlet promoting FHE's two VHS series of Transformers and GIjoe. It was a promotional piece intended for video retailers in 1985. The story had the Autobots teaming up with GIjoe to battle the Decepticons and Cobra who were trying to foil the shipment of FHE VHS tapes to stores.

[https://twitter.com/tfwiki/status/1408936518459273217]

==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
*{{w|Family Home Entertainment}} at Wikipedia
*[http://www.tfrid.com/pictures/US/usvideos.html Archive of F.H.E. comic strips]

{{stub}}
[[Category:Home entertainment]]

Escalation

2018-12-24T14:49:42Z

Zackmak: /* Reprints */

{{disambig3|Escalation}}
{{comicstory|seriesissue=''[[Transformers: War Within: The Dark Ages|Transformers:<br />War Within:<br />The Dark Ages]]'' #2
|prev=Fragmentation (G1)
|next=Devastation
|title="Escalation"
|image=DW WW2 2.jpg
|caption=Who wrote "Don" on that pipe?
|publisher=[[Dreamwave Productions]]
|date=[[November 12]], 2003
|coverdate=November, 2003
|writer=[[Simon Furman]]
|pencils=[[Andrew Wildman]]
|inks=[[Erik Sander]]
|colors=[[Espen Grundetjern]], [[Rob Ruffolo]]
|letters=[[Ben Lee|Benjamin Lee]]
|editorinchief=[[Roger Lee]]
|chronology=[[Dreamwave timeline|The Dark Ages]]
|continuity=[[Dreamwave Generation One continuity|Dreamwave continuity]]
}}
'''On a divided Cybertron, the Tagan Heights are home to a battle that signifies the escalation of the war between the divided sides.'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Ratbatwarwithin.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Ratbat thinks the Wreckers are a superstitious and cowardly lot.]]
In the [[Well of All Sparks]], [[The Fallen]] is pleased with the [[Chaos Trinity]]'s preparations for the [[Unbinding]], saying they are reading to begin seizing those that they need. [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]], however, is more interested in the "dark powers" that The Fallen had promised. Deciding Bludgeon needs some motivation, The Fallen reaches into Bludgeon's mind and offers him a glimpse at forbidden secrets, ensuring the loyalty of Bludgeon and his cronies.

Away, in the [[Tagan Heights]], [[Springer (G1)|Springer]] and the [[Wrecker]]s start a patrol, to keep the area out of the hands of [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]]'s [[Ultracon]]s. Taking higher ground, he finds that Ratbat has unleashed [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]].

[[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]] and the rest of the [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] consider their alignment from the base they've made in the ruins of the [[High Council Pavilions]]. Hot Spot decides to take action in hopes of preventing escalation.

Springer orders the Wreckers not to engage Devastator, but the team disobeys the order to give Springer the opportunity to get clear. Springer falls away and ends up suspended upside down in some loose wires, where he's taunted by Ratbat.

Bludgeon considers the tasks The Fallen appointed to him, and he plots to manipulate [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]].

Devastator continues to battle the Wreckers, his limited intellect manifesting in the way he rampages without consideration. The [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] arrive and combine into [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]] in hopes of quelling the combined Constructicons. The rumbles of their clash allow Springer to fall out of his restraints.

While the situation in the Tagan Heights grows worse, the Autobase is left abandoned, except for a lonely [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]].

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters|c1=
*[[Springer (G1)|Springer]] (5)
*[[Roadbuster (G1)|Roadbuster]] (6)
*[[Whirl (G1)|Whirl]] (7)
*[[Twin Twist]] (8)
*[[Topspin (G1)|Topspin]] (9)
*[[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] (10)
*[[Sandstorm (G1)|Sandstorm]] (11)
*[[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]] (14)
*[[Blades (G1)|Blades]] (15)
*[[First Aid (G1)|First Aid]] (16)
*[[Streetwise (G1)|Streetwise]] (17)
*[[Groove (G1)|Groove]] (18)
*[[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] (hologram) (22)
*[[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]] (23)
*[[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] (28)
|c2=
*[[Bugly (G1)|Bugly]] (2)
*[[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] (3)
*[[Mindwipe (G1)|Mindwipe]] (4)
*[[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]] (12)
*[[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] (13)
*[[Chop Shop (G1)|Chop Shop]] (19)
*[[Venom (G1)|Venom]] (20)
*[[Ransack (G1)|Ransack]] (21)
*[[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] (24)
*[[Octane]] (25)
*[[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] (26)
|c4=
*[[The Fallen]] (1)
}}

==Quotes==
"I opened a door, into a realm within, a dark '''forgotten''' corner of every Transformer. A '''relic''' of what we once were. Serve me well, and next time I will leave the door... '''ajar'''."
:'''—The Fallen''' wants you to read that in [[Tony Todd]]'s voice.

'''Sandstorm:''' "You really '''were''' first off the production line, weren't you? Six of the sharpest minds on Cybertron '''mushed''' into 'Devastator smash'." <br>
'''Top-Spin:''' "Hey..." <br>
'''Whirl:''' "... that's '''progress''' for you."

==Notes==
*Springer springs. This ability was mentioned in his on-package [[bio]] but has rarely been used in any Transformers media.
*Jetfire's new design for the series is based on [[Don Figueroa]]'s scratch-build custom Transformer, [http://www.tfarchive.com/creative/kitbashes/maraudimus/image/strikefire_2.jpg Strikefire]. Eventually the design was released as a figure in the [[Titanium Series]].
*Combiners are treated as living weapons so powerful both sides signed treaties agreeing to limit their use. While not given much focus for the rest of Dreamwave's productions, the idea will go on to see more usage in IDW's own Transformers stories.

===Continuity notes===
*When the Fallen offers Bludgeon a taste of the forgotten realm, several demonic robots are seen (one similar to [[Unicron]]), as well as a human skull and swords. This may have given Bludgeon inspiration for his later [[Pretender]] shell.
*Ratbat is a talky humanoid. But in "[[Countdown to Extinction (issue)|Countdown to Extinction]]", he's silent. Ratbat would later be seen with an early "even more talky humanoid" form in [[IDW Publishing]]'s ''[[The Transformers: Megatron Origin|Megatron Origin]]''.
*In the time since the prior ''War Within'' series, the Constructicons, Combaticons, Stunticons, Aerialbots and Protectobots have all formed and became combiners.

===Real life references===
*Just as he sees Devastator, Springer starts saying "all quiet on the western front". Following on from that, he paraphrases the quote "we have met the enemy, and he is us".

===Other trivia===
*The "[[Wavelengths]]" section contain an article from the desk of [[Pat Lee]].
*The "Declarations of War" page has reader mail answered by [[Matt Moylan]].
*A print of this issue was included in the [[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe (2008)]] '''Battle Beneath the Streets''' toy 2 pack of Springer and Ratbat inspired by this issue. At least it was supposed to. Many, if not all, sets accidentally included the comic intended for the '''Autobot Ambush''' 2 pack.

===Errors===
*"The Dark Ages" is not on the cover under "The War Within", like all the other issues.
*Moments before combining into [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]], [[Blades (G1)|Blades]] refers to [[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]] as [[Hot Shot (disambiguation)|Hot Shot]].

===Covers (1)===
*Springer in the shadow of Ratbat, art by [[Don Figueroa]], [[Erik Sander]] and [[Saiko]].

===Advertisements===
*Video game, ''Viewtiful Joe''
*[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|''Beast Wars'', season 1]] DVD
*[[The Transformers (cartoon)|''Generation 1'', season 3]] DVD, part 1
*[[The End|''Armada'' #18]] (double-page sideways centerfold)
*[[Devastation|''The Dark Ages'' #3]]
*[[Generation 1 issue 0|''Generation One'' #0]] (back cover)

===Reprints===
<small>Other than [[Transformers: War Within: The Dark Ages#Collections|reprints of the full series]]</small>
*Reprints of this issue and [[Target: 2006|Marvel UK #82]] were included with thematically-relevant ''[[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]]'' (2008) two-packs... except each two-pack accidentally came with the comic intended for the other one. Whoops. Even worse, the Canadian releases of these two-packs completely lacked the comics despite advertising them on their packaging. It's worth noting that this issue was an exact duplicate of its original, with Dreamwave still labeled as the publisher - even though Dreamwave Productions went bankrupt in early 2005, and IDW was the current Transformers comic book licensee at the time. Since IDW took over in 2005, putting the 'IDW' branding all pre-2005 Transformers comics that were reprinted was standard practice...but for some reason, this War Within issue was left as-is.

[[Category:War Within issues]]
[[Category:Pack-in material]]

The War Within issue 5

2017-06-13T03:27:46Z

Zackmak: /* Reprints */

{{comicstory|seriesissue=''[[Transformers: The War Within]]'' #5
|prev=The War Within issue 4
|next=The War Within issue 6
|image=DW TWW 5.jpg
|caption=Me Grimlock say where Dinobots?
|publisher=[[Dreamwave Productions]]
|date=[[February 12]], [[2003]]
|coverdate=February, 2003
|story=[[Simon Furman]]
|pencils=[[Don Figueroa]]
|inks=[[Elaine To]]
|colors=[[Rob Ruffolo]]
|graphic design=[[Kevin Lee]]
|letters=[[Dreamer Design]]
|editorinchief=[[Roger Lee]]
|assistant editor=[[Matt Moylan]]
|chronology=[[Dreamwave timeline|Early war]]
|continuity=[[Dreamwave Generation One continuity]]
}}
'''Prime and Megatron see visions of the Matrix, while Starscream begins his destructive hijacking of Megatron's plan.'''

==Synopsis==
As [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]'s team descends deeper into [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], [[Kup (G1)|Kup]] makes casual conversation, questioning Grimlock's attitude. Grimlock, of course, just reasserts that he's a ''badass''. Following [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s [[energy signature]], they discover one of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s planetary turbines. Adapting the plan, Grimlock orders the rest of his team to sabotage whatever the Decepticons are up to.

[[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] delivers a killing blow to ''two'' [[Guardian robot]]s, giving the [[Decepticon]]s a clear path to the last remaining core of [[Iacon (polity)|Iacon]]. From their staging grounds in the [[Decagon]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and his teammates prepare to make their final stand.

Inside of a vision from the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], Optimus Prime and Megatron witness future incarnations of themselves battling at some [[Sherman Dam|alien location]]. When not-future Megatron continues his attack on not-future Optimus, the scenery again re-aligns itself further into the future, where [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]] and [[Targetmaster (technology)|Targetmasters]] continue the war. After another shift, the two arrive back in the present, but the Matrix teleports Optimus to Grimlock. Grimlock gives Optimus [[Energo weapon|his sword]], suggesting the Autobot leader take more active measures in dealing with Megatron.

[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]], planning to destroy everything on Cybertron's surface, disregards [[Scrapper (G1)|Scrapper]]'s warnings about how the turbines function. [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]], Kup, and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] overhear the plan, but are discovered by two other [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]]. With the plot discovered, Starscream activates the engine beneath Iacon. As Shockwave stands victorious, the Autobots' capital city is devastated by superheated plasma.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters|c1=
{{{!}}border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background:transparent"
{{!}}-
{{!}}style="background:transparent;border:0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] (2)
*[[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] (3)
*[[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] (4)
*[[Kup (G1)|Kup]] (5)
*[[Guardian robot]]s (6)
*[[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] (17)
*[[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]] (18)
*[[Skids (G1)|Skids]] (19)
*[[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (20)
*[[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]] (21)
*[[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] (22)
{{!}}style="background:transparent;border:0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] (23)
*[[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] (24)
*[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (27)
*[[Hound (G1)|Hound]] (28)
*[[Highbrow (G1)|Highbrow]] (33)
*[[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] (34)
*[[Firebolt (G1)|Firebolt]] (35)
*[[Hot Rod]] (36)
{{!}}}
|c2=
{{{!}}border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background:transparent"
{{!}}-
{{!}}style="background:transparent;border:0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] (1)
*[[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] (7)
*[[Blitzwing (G1)|Blitzwing]] (8)
*[[Brawl (G1)|Brawl]] (9)
*[[Ramjet (G1)|Ramjet]] (10)
*[[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]] (11)
*[[Vortex (G1)|Vortex]] (12)
*[[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] (13)
*[[Octane]] (14)
*[[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]] (15)
*[[Onslaught (G1)|Onslaught]] (16)
{{!}}style="background:transparent;border:0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Scrapper (G1)|Scrapper]] (25)
*[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] (26)
*[[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] (29)
*[[Motormaster (G1)|Motormaster]] (30)
*[[Bonecrusher (G1)|Bonecrusher]] (31)
*[[Mixmaster (G1)|Mixmaster]] (32)
*[[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] (37)
*[[Bombshell (G1)|Bombshell]] (38)
*[[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] (39)
*[[Thrust (G1)|Thrust]] (40)
*[[Enemy (G1)|Enemy]] (41)
{{!}}}
}}

==Quotes==
"I know it's the ''image,'' right? "Me Grimlock-- badass", but c'mon... there must have been someone you respected."
:'''—Kup''', on the subject of Grimlock

"Me, Grimlock — ''badass!''"
:—'''Grimlock''', on the same subject

"You don't think too much of our ''current'' Prime, I can see that. But ''Sentinel Prime?'' He had his head screwed on."<br>
"Eh. Not at end he didn't."
:'''—Kup''' and '''Grimlock'''

"I get a real bad feeling about this."
:'''—Kup''', doing a [[Han Solo]] impersonation

"''Hn.''<br>
''Hm?''<br>
''Fh!''<br>
''Tt.''<br>
''Ff!''<br>
''Hn.''"
:'''—Grimlock''' has [[Furmanism|FURMAN POWER]]!

==Notes==
*On the side of the massive turbine, the logo for the Transformers forum [http://www.allspark.com/ the Allspark] is visible. But while the turbine pumps hot boiling plasma that destroys cities, the forum has a mildly different function. Usually.
* The letters "BBTS" on one of the buildings at the [[Sherman Dam]] is a reference to online toy store [[BigBadToyStore]].

===Errors===
*Wheeljack has ''three'' typos within the same speech bubble: "There's a sub-planetary strata—a second skin—ready and waiting to force ''it's was'' to the surface." For the trade paperback collection, "was" was corrected to "way", but "it's" still features an apostrophe and the plural "strata" was not corrected to the singular "stratum".
*On the page of "Grimlock grunts", Grimlock's left knee is incorrectly-colored as part of his thigh in the panel where he descends deeper underground via his grappling gun.
*One of Megatron's speech bubbles also contains a typo: "It almost seems as if you have a ''gaurdian'' spirit, Prime..." Again, this was fixed for the TPB.

===Covers (2)===
*'''Regular cover:''' The [[Lightning Strike Coalition]] by Don Figueroa, Elaine To and Rob Ruffolo
*'''Incentive cover:''' Optimus Prime by [[Pat Lee]], [[Rob Armstrong]] and [[Espen Grundetjern]]

<gallery>
File:DW TWW 5.jpg|Me Grimlock say where Dinobots?
File:DW TWW 5 incentive.jpg|[[Pat Lee|The Transman]] makes Optronix a balloon-bot.
</gallery>

===Advertisements===
*[[The War Within issue 6|''The War Within'' #6]] (with the incentive cover by Pat Lee, which is actually the incentive cover for ''this'' issue)
*[[Brothers' Burden|''War and Peace'' #2]] (double page)
*[[Dreamwave Armada issue 10|''Armada'' #10]]
*[[Transformers: Armada (Dreamwave)|''Armada'' trade paperback]]
*[[Titan Books]] collections
*[[Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|''More Than Meets The Eye'' #1]] (back cover)

===Reprints===
{{issuestub}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:War Within issue 5}}
[[Category:War Within issues]]
*An IDW-labeled, variant-cover (War Within Optimus Prime fighting War Within Megatron in front of a yellow sky) of defunct Dreamwave's 2003 War Within #5, Vol. 1 comic, included with the 2007 'Battle Packs' 2-figure box release of this series' versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron. IDW also numbered this #5. Cover art by Don Figueroa, cover colors by Josh Burcham (employees of IDW at the time)

Pack-in material

2017-06-13T03:16:12Z

Zackmak: /* Full-sized comics */

[[File:Youhavebeenchosen.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|The besotted [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]] has chosen [[You|YOU]].]]
Since the very beginning of ''Transformers,'' [[Hasbro]] has been including '''pack-in material''' with toys. The first example was the [[Catalog|toy catalog]], simply advertising all the available Transformers. But soon these were accompanied with mail-order flyers for additional exclusive toys, then mini-comics, contests, and more. In more recent years, CD-ROMs and DVDs have come into vogue, containing cartoon episodes and various interactive features, though more "low-tech" items like stickers and collector cards are still common.
{{note|The term "pack-in material" is used here for lack of a better, official option. If Hasbro has a term for this kind of media, we are unaware of it.}}

==Catalogs==
{{main|Catalog}}
Hasbro has often used pack-in catalogs to advertise their range of available toys. In the days of ''Generation 1,'' they were expansive affairs that would document an entire year's worth of product. In more recent lines, they tend to have a more limited focus, though they do occasionally branch out into advertising for other toylines.

==Mail-order flyers==
In Generation 1, Hasbro sold certain toys exclusively via mail-order flyers included with retail toys. [[Reflector (G1)|Reflector]], the [[Omnibot (G1)|Omnibots]], and the [[Powerdasher]]s are probably the most well-known of these. Mail-order flyers were also used to sell a few other Transformers that had been discontinued from the main line. Membership in the [[S.T.A.R.S.]] fanclub was also available, and many flyers contained story material related to this that constituted a [[S.T.A.R.S. continuity|distinct micro-continuity]].

;1984
[[File:Lookinsideforaspecialoffer.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Reinforcements from Cybertron!]]"

;1985
*"[[The battle is far from over!]]"
*"[[Earthlings: THE S.T.A.R.S. need your help now!]]"
*"[[Look Inside for a Special Offer!]]"
*"[[Have the Decepticons defeated us once and for all?]]"

;1986
[[File:Decipherthedecepticon3a.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Can one boy, alone, hold back the evil Decepticons?]]"
*"[[Decipher the Decepticon]]" Sweepstakes (4 different [[posters]])
*"[[You Have Been Chosen.]]"
*"[[Inside...a Transformer Not Sold in Any Store!]]"

;1987
*"[[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]]"
*"[[Transformers Combat Data]]"

;1988
*"[[The Autobots Are Under Attack!]]"

==Mini-comics==
Hasbro and Takara have been known to include mini-comics with toys, sometimes to tie in with a specific promotion, and sometimes to augment the line as a whole.

;Generation 1
*"[[Start Your Own Decoy Collection]]", packed alongside [[decoy]]s on certain carded Transformers.
*"[[In the Transformers]]", included with toys distributed in Europe by [[Milton Bradley]].

;''Generation 2''
*A series of 16 [[Transformers: G-2 (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] by [[Hidetsugu Yoshioka]] were packaged with the instruction manuals by [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] for the line's Japanese release.

;''Beast Wars''
*"[[Optimus Primal vs Megatron!]]", included only with the two-pack of Basic-sized [[Megatron (BW)/toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]].

;''Armada''
*[[Transformers: Armada (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Armada'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Energon''
*[[Transformers: Energon (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Energon'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Rescue Hero Go-Bots''
*[[Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots (manga)|''Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots'' mini-manga]], nineteen issues were produced and distributed with the toys either in a booklet or on the box.

;''Robotmasters''
*A series of two [[Robotmasters (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] came packaged with early ''Robotmasters'' toys.

;''Henkei! Henkei!''
*Mini-[[manga]] were packaged with every toy in each wave, totaling [[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (pack-in manga)|12 volumes]].

;''Transformers: Dark of the Moon''
*The four Target exclusive Deluxe toys [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys|Bumblebee]], [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]], and [[Space Case (DOTM)|Space Case]], and two Voyager toys [[Ratchet (Movie)/toys|Ratchet]] and [[Starscream (Movie)/toys|Starscream]], each contained a character-specific mini-comic.

==Full-sized comics==
;"Titanium - War Within"
*An IDW-labeled variant-cover (War Within Optimus Prime fighting War Within Megatron in front of a yellow smoke-filled sky) of defunct Dreamwave's 2003 War Within #5, Vol. 1 comic, included with the 2007 'Battle Packs' 2-figure box release of this series' versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron. IDW also numbered this #5.
;''Universe (2008)''
*Reprints of Dreamwave-branded [[Escalation|''War Within: The Dark Ages'' #2]], and also an unbranded comic-cover issue retelling parts 5 and 6 of [[Marvel UK's Target: 2006]] story arc in original form, were included with thematically-relevant two-packs... except each two-pack accidentally came with the comic intended for the other one. Whoops. Even worse, the Canadian releases of these two-packs completely lacked the comics despite advertising them on their packaging.
*A reprint of [[Marvel Comics]]' [[The Transformers (issue)|''The Transformers'' #1]] was included with the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 Series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]. This time around, the bilingual English/French Canadian release ''didn't'' advertise the (English-only) comic on the packaging but included it nonetheless!
;"Reveal the Sheild"
*A new IDW comic titled Rodimus vs. Cyclonus was included in this 'Battle In Space' 2-pack which included Classics deluxe Rodimus and Universe deluxe Cyclonus with Nightstick. This comic takes place during the events of The Transformers: The Movie.

;''Animated''
*[[First (and Second) in Flight|The final issue]] of the ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]]'' comic series ''[[Transformers Animated: The Arrival]]'' was included with the [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] and [[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]] toy twin pack.

;''Generations''
[[File:T30 Trailcutter pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Thrilling 30'': English-only United States packaging with comic book (right), multilingual Canadian/Latin American "waste of space" version without comic book (center) and multilingual European "compact" version without comic book (right).]]
*The United States releases of the ''[[Thrilling 30]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of [[IDW Publishing|IDW]] comics (sporting new "Hasbro exclusive" covers) in which the respective character plays a (more or less) prominent part. The first two waves of ''Thrilling 30'' figures included reprints of the characters' ''[[The Transformers: Spotlight|Spotlight]]'' issues; the third wave included four issues that served as lead-ups to the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Dark Cybertron]]'' event; and the remaining four waves included the twelve-issue ''Dark Cybertron'' event itself in its entirety. These comics are generally bowdlerized versions of the original printings, removing overt references to weaponry and death and substituting them with more family-friendly turns of phrase such as "destroy" or "blaster" (though not always with 100% consistency), as well as various other inexplicable changes. While Australia, New Zealand and Hasbro's Asian markets received the same versions that were released in the United States (as per usual) including the comics, the [[multilingual packaging|multilingual]] Canadian/Latin American versions once again lacked the comics, as did the European versions (though only wave 1 of the ''Thrilling 30'' Deluxes actually saw a European release).
*Likewise, the ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of IDW comics as well, this time including the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Combiner Wars]]'' event and assorted issues that were retroactively declared "prequels". Since all other ''Combiner Wars'' price points included collector cards, Hasbro took the opportunity and included such collector cards with the Deluxes in those markets that wouldn't get comic books as well. Due to production schedule problems,<ref name="tf15jerry">[http://bwtf.com/events/toyfair2015/interview-part1 Interview with Jerry Jivoin at BWTF.com]</ref> the wave 1 Deluxes were initially only available in Canadian/Latin American packaging (with collector cards) in the U.S. and Australasia. Though a re-release of those figures including the comics was planned, only [[Drag Strip (G1)#Generations|Decepticon Dragstrip]] was actually re-released in this fashion.
{{-}}

==Collector's cards==
A common pack-in item, collector's cards are an easy way for Hasbro to give customers a little something extra with their purchases.

;''Generation 2''
{{main|Real Action Pop-Ups 3-D Transformer Trading Card}}
*Some toys in the ''Generation 2'' line came with a multi-fold card which featured the toy's [[bio]] and [[Tech Spec]] inside, and a pop-up version of the [[package art|character art]] on the outside.

;''Beast Wars''
*The Japanese editions of ''Beast Wars'' toys each came with a collector's card (alternately labeled a "DESTRON CARD" or "CYBERTRON CARD") featuring a faction symbol on one side, and character art, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars II''
*Toys from the ''Beast Wars II'' line each came with a collector's card featuring a rendering of the character on a photographic background on one side, and a toy photo, bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars Neo''
*The ''Beast Wars Neo'' toys each came with a collector's card featuring character art on one side, and toy photos, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Armada''
*''Armada'' toys came with a glossy, single-sided, playing card-sized sticker featuring character art by [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]].
*''Micron Legend'' toys came with a collector's card featuring package art on one side and toy photos, bios and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Heroes of Cybertron''
*Toys in the ''[[Heroes of Cybertron]]'' line each came with collector's card with the character's package art on one side, and a bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Energon''
[[File:CW Swindle pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Combiner Wars'' Deluxes in English-only packaging (left) included comic books, while those on multilingual Canadian/Latin American (center) or European (right) packaging included collector cards instead.]]
*Toys from the ''Energon'' franchise included a playing-card sized collector's card, with character art on one side, and tri-lingual Tech Spec ratings on the other.

;''Masterpiece''
*''Masterpiece'' toys each come with a collector's card featuring package art on one side with bios and Tech Specs on the reverse.

;''Generations''
*As mentioned above, collector cards were included with all ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]'' [[size class|price points]] that came in [[multilingual packaging]], except for the Deluxes which were available in English-only packaging in the United States, Australia and Hasbro's Asian markets (but ''did'' come with collector cards in Canada, Latin America and Europe).
*With ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'', English-only packaging and comic books were dropped entirely, thus ''all'' price points except for the single-pack [[Titan Master]]s were available in multilingual packaging with collector cards regardless of market. This time, the cards featured Tech Specs stats on their back.
{{-}}

==VHS Tapes==
{{main|Hasbro}}
In [[1998]], Hasbro included VHS tapes of ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' with [[redeco]]es of [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and [[Razorclaw (BW)|Razorclaw]] in the US and [[Claw Jaw]] and [[Spittor (BW)|Spittor]] in the UK.

==CD-ROMs and DVDs==
In the modern era, compact-disc storage has become an economical way to include promotional material with toys, from mini-comics to games to full TV episodes.

;''Universe (2003)'' / ''Armada''
{{main|Universe CD-ROM}}
*The ''Transformers: Universe'' CD-ROM was included with select ''Universe'' and ''Armada'' toys.

;''Robotmasters''
{{main|Robotmasters (cartoon)}}
*DVDs were packaged with redecoes of ''Robotmasters'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Robotmasters|G1 Convoy]], [[Optimus Primal/toys#Robotmasters|Beast Convoy]] and [[Lio Convoy#Robotmasters|Lio Convoy]].

;''Cybertron''
*A DVD of the ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (cartoon)|Cybertron]]'' episode "[[Hidden]]" was included with select ''Cybertron'' toys.
*In Australian retail stores, some Voyager-class figures (namely Cybertron Defense Scattorshot and Nemesis Breaker) came with a DVD which contained the first four episodes of the cartoon in airing order (Haven through Space).

;''Classics''
[[File:UltimateBattleUSEuro.jpg|right|thumb|European packaging for the "Ultimate Battle" boxset was noticeably smaller because it lacked the DVD case. In the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, the DVD was included only in a paper sleeve; in other European stores, it was given as a freebie separately.]]
{{main|Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle}}
*The ''Classics'' "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Classics|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Megatron]]" toy twin pack came with a DVD recounting the events of the [[Unicron Trilogy]].

;''Beast Wars 10th Anniversary''
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Beast Wars 10th Anniversary]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing an episode of ''Beast Wars''.
**"[[Equal Measures]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Cheetor]]
**"[[A Better Mousetrap]]" with [[Rattrap (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rattrap]].
**"[[The Spark]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rhinox]].
**"[[Spider's Game]]" with [[Tarantulas (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Predacon Tarantulus]].
**"[[Possession]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Waspinator]] or [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Optimus Primal]] vs. [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Megatron]].
**"[[Code of Hero]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Dinobot]].
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Beast Wars Telemocha Series]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing a Japanese-dubbed episode of ''Beast Wars'' and a commercial for the toyline, along with advertisements for the 2007 movie. The toys also came with a collector's card with show-based character art on one side, and toy photos, bio and specs on the other.
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 1)|Super Lifeform Transformers Appear]]" and "[[Victory (episode)|Make a Dramatic Comeback, Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Convoy]].
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 2)|Destroy the Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Convoy]].
**"[[The Web|Cheetus's Crisis]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Rhinox]].
**"[[Equal Measures|Operation: Time Bomb Transfer]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Megatron]].
**"[[Chain of Command (BW)|Convoy Disappeared]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cheetus]].
**"[[Power Surge (episode)|The Sky-Mountains Explode]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Waspeeter]].
**"[[Fallen Comrades|Solitary Warrior, Tigatron]]" with [[Tigatron#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Tigatron]].
**"[[Double Jeopardy|Kick of the Spider Woman]]" with [[Wolfang (Predacon)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Wolfang]].
**"[[The Probe|New Weapons of Terror!]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Dinobot]].
**"[[Gorilla Warfare|The Assassin Virus]]" with [[Blackarachnia (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Blackwidow]].
**"[[A Better Mousetrap|Goodbye, Rattle!?]]" with [[Cohrada#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cohrada]].
**"[[The Spark|Falcon Warrior, Airazor]]" with [[Gimlet#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Gimlet]].
**"[[The Trigger, Part 1|Floating Island Death Match, Part 1]]" and "[[The Trigger, Part 2|Floating Island Death Match, Part 2]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Megatron]].
**"[[Dark Voyage|Around and Around the Jungle]]" with [[Archadis#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Archadis]].
**"[[Possession|The Immortal Starscream]]" with [[Motorarm (BWII)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Motorarm]].

;Universe (2003)
{{main|The Transformers (cartoon)/home video}}
[[File:Universetoy 25th anniversary optimus prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|''Universe'' "25th Anniversary" Optimus Prime with all his accessories… that is, if you happen to live in the United States.]]
*A DVD of the three part episode "[[More than Meets the Eye (mini-series)|More than Meets the Eye]]" was included with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]… but only with the United States release. In Asia, Australia and Canada, the DVD was omitted (even though the comic book was still included).

;''Animated''
{{main|Transformers Animated (cartoon)/home video#Pack-in disc}}
*A DVD titled "The Battle Begins" was included with the ''Animated'' "[[Optimus Prime (Animated)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (Animated)#Toys|Megatron]]" Deluxe two-pack.

;''Prime''
*A DVD of the Transformers Prime episode titled "[[Masters & Students]]" was included in an "Entertainment Pack" with a deluxe [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]], as well as PVC figurines of [[Jack Darby]], [[Miko Nakadai]], and [[Raf Esquivel]]. The same episode was ''also'' included with special "DVD Edition" versions of the [[Cyberverse#Series 2|Cyberverse]] Commander Class [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Optimus Prime]], [[Bulkhead (Prime)#Cyberverse|Bulkhead]], [[Starscream (WFC)#Cyberverse|Starscream]] and [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Megatron]] figures.
{{-}}

==Contests==
Occasionally Hasbro has run contests based on pack-in material:

;Generation 1
{{main|Prizes in Disguise}}
*[[Iron-on patch]]es were included with the [[combiner]] limbs and 1986 [[Mini Vehicle]]s, promoting the Prizes in Disguise contest.

;''Cybertron''
{{main|Get Your Key To Cybertron}}
*Peel-off stickers and game pieces promoted the "Get Your Key To Cybertron" instant win game.

==References==
{{reflist}}
[[Category:Pack-in material| ]]

Pack-in material

2017-06-13T02:58:45Z

Zackmak: /* Full-sized comics */

[[File:Youhavebeenchosen.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|The besotted [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]] has chosen [[You|YOU]].]]
Since the very beginning of ''Transformers,'' [[Hasbro]] has been including '''pack-in material''' with toys. The first example was the [[Catalog|toy catalog]], simply advertising all the available Transformers. But soon these were accompanied with mail-order flyers for additional exclusive toys, then mini-comics, contests, and more. In more recent years, CD-ROMs and DVDs have come into vogue, containing cartoon episodes and various interactive features, though more "low-tech" items like stickers and collector cards are still common.
{{note|The term "pack-in material" is used here for lack of a better, official option. If Hasbro has a term for this kind of media, we are unaware of it.}}

==Catalogs==
{{main|Catalog}}
Hasbro has often used pack-in catalogs to advertise their range of available toys. In the days of ''Generation 1,'' they were expansive affairs that would document an entire year's worth of product. In more recent lines, they tend to have a more limited focus, though they do occasionally branch out into advertising for other toylines.

==Mail-order flyers==
In Generation 1, Hasbro sold certain toys exclusively via mail-order flyers included with retail toys. [[Reflector (G1)|Reflector]], the [[Omnibot (G1)|Omnibots]], and the [[Powerdasher]]s are probably the most well-known of these. Mail-order flyers were also used to sell a few other Transformers that had been discontinued from the main line. Membership in the [[S.T.A.R.S.]] fanclub was also available, and many flyers contained story material related to this that constituted a [[S.T.A.R.S. continuity|distinct micro-continuity]].

;1984
[[File:Lookinsideforaspecialoffer.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Reinforcements from Cybertron!]]"

;1985
*"[[The battle is far from over!]]"
*"[[Earthlings: THE S.T.A.R.S. need your help now!]]"
*"[[Look Inside for a Special Offer!]]"
*"[[Have the Decepticons defeated us once and for all?]]"

;1986
[[File:Decipherthedecepticon3a.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Can one boy, alone, hold back the evil Decepticons?]]"
*"[[Decipher the Decepticon]]" Sweepstakes (4 different [[posters]])
*"[[You Have Been Chosen.]]"
*"[[Inside...a Transformer Not Sold in Any Store!]]"

;1987
*"[[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]]"
*"[[Transformers Combat Data]]"

;1988
*"[[The Autobots Are Under Attack!]]"

==Mini-comics==
Hasbro and Takara have been known to include mini-comics with toys, sometimes to tie in with a specific promotion, and sometimes to augment the line as a whole.

;Generation 1
*"[[Start Your Own Decoy Collection]]", packed alongside [[decoy]]s on certain carded Transformers.
*"[[In the Transformers]]", included with toys distributed in Europe by [[Milton Bradley]].

;''Generation 2''
*A series of 16 [[Transformers: G-2 (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] by [[Hidetsugu Yoshioka]] were packaged with the instruction manuals by [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] for the line's Japanese release.

;''Beast Wars''
*"[[Optimus Primal vs Megatron!]]", included only with the two-pack of Basic-sized [[Megatron (BW)/toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]].

;''Armada''
*[[Transformers: Armada (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Armada'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Energon''
*[[Transformers: Energon (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Energon'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Rescue Hero Go-Bots''
*[[Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots (manga)|''Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots'' mini-manga]], nineteen issues were produced and distributed with the toys either in a booklet or on the box.

;''Robotmasters''
*A series of two [[Robotmasters (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] came packaged with early ''Robotmasters'' toys.

;''Henkei! Henkei!''
*Mini-[[manga]] were packaged with every toy in each wave, totaling [[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (pack-in manga)|12 volumes]].

;''Transformers: Dark of the Moon''
*The four Target exclusive Deluxe toys [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys|Bumblebee]], [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]], and [[Space Case (DOTM)|Space Case]], and two Voyager toys [[Ratchet (Movie)/toys|Ratchet]] and [[Starscream (Movie)/toys|Starscream]], each contained a character-specific mini-comic.

==Full-sized comics==
;"Titanium - War Within"
*An IDW-labeled variant-cover (War Within Optimus Prime fighting War Within Megatron in front of a yellow smoke-filled sky) of defunct Dreamwave's 2003 War Within #5, Vol. 1 comic, included with the 2007 'Battle Packs' 2-figure box release of this series' versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron. IDW also numbered this #5.
;''Universe (2008)''
*Reprints of Dreamwave cover-labeled [[Escalation|''War Within: The Dark Ages'' #2]] and unlabeled cover [[Target: 2006|Marvel UK #82]] were included with thematically-relevant two-packs... except each two-pack accidentally came with the comic intended for the other one. Whoops. Even worse, the Canadian releases of these two-packs completely lacked the comics despite advertising them on their packaging.
*A reprint of [[Marvel Comics]]' [[The Transformers (issue)|''The Transformers'' #1]] was included with the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 Series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]. This time around, the bilingual English/French Canadian release ''didn't'' advertise the (English-only) comic on the packaging but included it nonetheless!
;"Reveal the Sheild"
*A new IDW comic titled Rodimus vs. Cyclonus was included in this 'Battle In Space' 2-pack which included Classics deluxe Rodimus and Universe deluxe Cyclonus with Nightstick. This comic takes place during the events of The Transformers: The Movie.

;''Animated''
*[[First (and Second) in Flight|The final issue]] of the ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]]'' comic series ''[[Transformers Animated: The Arrival]]'' was included with the [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] and [[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]] toy twin pack.

;''Generations''
[[File:T30 Trailcutter pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Thrilling 30'': English-only United States packaging with comic book (right), multilingual Canadian/Latin American "waste of space" version without comic book (center) and multilingual European "compact" version without comic book (right).]]
*The United States releases of the ''[[Thrilling 30]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of [[IDW Publishing|IDW]] comics (sporting new "Hasbro exclusive" covers) in which the respective character plays a (more or less) prominent part. The first two waves of ''Thrilling 30'' figures included reprints of the characters' ''[[The Transformers: Spotlight|Spotlight]]'' issues; the third wave included four issues that served as lead-ups to the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Dark Cybertron]]'' event; and the remaining four waves included the twelve-issue ''Dark Cybertron'' event itself in its entirety. These comics are generally bowdlerized versions of the original printings, removing overt references to weaponry and death and substituting them with more family-friendly turns of phrase such as "destroy" or "blaster" (though not always with 100% consistency), as well as various other inexplicable changes. While Australia, New Zealand and Hasbro's Asian markets received the same versions that were released in the United States (as per usual) including the comics, the [[multilingual packaging|multilingual]] Canadian/Latin American versions once again lacked the comics, as did the European versions (though only wave 1 of the ''Thrilling 30'' Deluxes actually saw a European release).
*Likewise, the ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of IDW comics as well, this time including the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Combiner Wars]]'' event and assorted issues that were retroactively declared "prequels". Since all other ''Combiner Wars'' price points included collector cards, Hasbro took the opportunity and included such collector cards with the Deluxes in those markets that wouldn't get comic books as well. Due to production schedule problems,<ref name="tf15jerry">[http://bwtf.com/events/toyfair2015/interview-part1 Interview with Jerry Jivoin at BWTF.com]</ref> the wave 1 Deluxes were initially only available in Canadian/Latin American packaging (with collector cards) in the U.S. and Australasia. Though a re-release of those figures including the comics was planned, only [[Drag Strip (G1)#Generations|Decepticon Dragstrip]] was actually re-released in this fashion.
{{-}}

==Collector's cards==
A common pack-in item, collector's cards are an easy way for Hasbro to give customers a little something extra with their purchases.

;''Generation 2''
{{main|Real Action Pop-Ups 3-D Transformer Trading Card}}
*Some toys in the ''Generation 2'' line came with a multi-fold card which featured the toy's [[bio]] and [[Tech Spec]] inside, and a pop-up version of the [[package art|character art]] on the outside.

;''Beast Wars''
*The Japanese editions of ''Beast Wars'' toys each came with a collector's card (alternately labeled a "DESTRON CARD" or "CYBERTRON CARD") featuring a faction symbol on one side, and character art, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars II''
*Toys from the ''Beast Wars II'' line each came with a collector's card featuring a rendering of the character on a photographic background on one side, and a toy photo, bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars Neo''
*The ''Beast Wars Neo'' toys each came with a collector's card featuring character art on one side, and toy photos, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Armada''
*''Armada'' toys came with a glossy, single-sided, playing card-sized sticker featuring character art by [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]].
*''Micron Legend'' toys came with a collector's card featuring package art on one side and toy photos, bios and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Heroes of Cybertron''
*Toys in the ''[[Heroes of Cybertron]]'' line each came with collector's card with the character's package art on one side, and a bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Energon''
[[File:CW Swindle pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Combiner Wars'' Deluxes in English-only packaging (left) included comic books, while those on multilingual Canadian/Latin American (center) or European (right) packaging included collector cards instead.]]
*Toys from the ''Energon'' franchise included a playing-card sized collector's card, with character art on one side, and tri-lingual Tech Spec ratings on the other.

;''Masterpiece''
*''Masterpiece'' toys each come with a collector's card featuring package art on one side with bios and Tech Specs on the reverse.

;''Generations''
*As mentioned above, collector cards were included with all ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]'' [[size class|price points]] that came in [[multilingual packaging]], except for the Deluxes which were available in English-only packaging in the United States, Australia and Hasbro's Asian markets (but ''did'' come with collector cards in Canada, Latin America and Europe).
*With ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'', English-only packaging and comic books were dropped entirely, thus ''all'' price points except for the single-pack [[Titan Master]]s were available in multilingual packaging with collector cards regardless of market. This time, the cards featured Tech Specs stats on their back.
{{-}}

==VHS Tapes==
{{main|Hasbro}}
In [[1998]], Hasbro included VHS tapes of ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' with [[redeco]]es of [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and [[Razorclaw (BW)|Razorclaw]] in the US and [[Claw Jaw]] and [[Spittor (BW)|Spittor]] in the UK.

==CD-ROMs and DVDs==
In the modern era, compact-disc storage has become an economical way to include promotional material with toys, from mini-comics to games to full TV episodes.

;''Universe (2003)'' / ''Armada''
{{main|Universe CD-ROM}}
*The ''Transformers: Universe'' CD-ROM was included with select ''Universe'' and ''Armada'' toys.

;''Robotmasters''
{{main|Robotmasters (cartoon)}}
*DVDs were packaged with redecoes of ''Robotmasters'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Robotmasters|G1 Convoy]], [[Optimus Primal/toys#Robotmasters|Beast Convoy]] and [[Lio Convoy#Robotmasters|Lio Convoy]].

;''Cybertron''
*A DVD of the ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (cartoon)|Cybertron]]'' episode "[[Hidden]]" was included with select ''Cybertron'' toys.
*In Australian retail stores, some Voyager-class figures (namely Cybertron Defense Scattorshot and Nemesis Breaker) came with a DVD which contained the first four episodes of the cartoon in airing order (Haven through Space).

;''Classics''
[[File:UltimateBattleUSEuro.jpg|right|thumb|European packaging for the "Ultimate Battle" boxset was noticeably smaller because it lacked the DVD case. In the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, the DVD was included only in a paper sleeve; in other European stores, it was given as a freebie separately.]]
{{main|Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle}}
*The ''Classics'' "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Classics|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Megatron]]" toy twin pack came with a DVD recounting the events of the [[Unicron Trilogy]].

;''Beast Wars 10th Anniversary''
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Beast Wars 10th Anniversary]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing an episode of ''Beast Wars''.
**"[[Equal Measures]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Cheetor]]
**"[[A Better Mousetrap]]" with [[Rattrap (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rattrap]].
**"[[The Spark]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rhinox]].
**"[[Spider's Game]]" with [[Tarantulas (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Predacon Tarantulus]].
**"[[Possession]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Waspinator]] or [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Optimus Primal]] vs. [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Megatron]].
**"[[Code of Hero]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Dinobot]].
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Beast Wars Telemocha Series]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing a Japanese-dubbed episode of ''Beast Wars'' and a commercial for the toyline, along with advertisements for the 2007 movie. The toys also came with a collector's card with show-based character art on one side, and toy photos, bio and specs on the other.
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 1)|Super Lifeform Transformers Appear]]" and "[[Victory (episode)|Make a Dramatic Comeback, Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Convoy]].
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 2)|Destroy the Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Convoy]].
**"[[The Web|Cheetus's Crisis]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Rhinox]].
**"[[Equal Measures|Operation: Time Bomb Transfer]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Megatron]].
**"[[Chain of Command (BW)|Convoy Disappeared]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cheetus]].
**"[[Power Surge (episode)|The Sky-Mountains Explode]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Waspeeter]].
**"[[Fallen Comrades|Solitary Warrior, Tigatron]]" with [[Tigatron#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Tigatron]].
**"[[Double Jeopardy|Kick of the Spider Woman]]" with [[Wolfang (Predacon)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Wolfang]].
**"[[The Probe|New Weapons of Terror!]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Dinobot]].
**"[[Gorilla Warfare|The Assassin Virus]]" with [[Blackarachnia (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Blackwidow]].
**"[[A Better Mousetrap|Goodbye, Rattle!?]]" with [[Cohrada#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cohrada]].
**"[[The Spark|Falcon Warrior, Airazor]]" with [[Gimlet#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Gimlet]].
**"[[The Trigger, Part 1|Floating Island Death Match, Part 1]]" and "[[The Trigger, Part 2|Floating Island Death Match, Part 2]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Megatron]].
**"[[Dark Voyage|Around and Around the Jungle]]" with [[Archadis#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Archadis]].
**"[[Possession|The Immortal Starscream]]" with [[Motorarm (BWII)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Motorarm]].

;Universe (2003)
{{main|The Transformers (cartoon)/home video}}
[[File:Universetoy 25th anniversary optimus prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|''Universe'' "25th Anniversary" Optimus Prime with all his accessories… that is, if you happen to live in the United States.]]
*A DVD of the three part episode "[[More than Meets the Eye (mini-series)|More than Meets the Eye]]" was included with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]… but only with the United States release. In Asia, Australia and Canada, the DVD was omitted (even though the comic book was still included).

;''Animated''
{{main|Transformers Animated (cartoon)/home video#Pack-in disc}}
*A DVD titled "The Battle Begins" was included with the ''Animated'' "[[Optimus Prime (Animated)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (Animated)#Toys|Megatron]]" Deluxe two-pack.

;''Prime''
*A DVD of the Transformers Prime episode titled "[[Masters & Students]]" was included in an "Entertainment Pack" with a deluxe [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]], as well as PVC figurines of [[Jack Darby]], [[Miko Nakadai]], and [[Raf Esquivel]]. The same episode was ''also'' included with special "DVD Edition" versions of the [[Cyberverse#Series 2|Cyberverse]] Commander Class [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Optimus Prime]], [[Bulkhead (Prime)#Cyberverse|Bulkhead]], [[Starscream (WFC)#Cyberverse|Starscream]] and [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Megatron]] figures.
{{-}}

==Contests==
Occasionally Hasbro has run contests based on pack-in material:

;Generation 1
{{main|Prizes in Disguise}}
*[[Iron-on patch]]es were included with the [[combiner]] limbs and 1986 [[Mini Vehicle]]s, promoting the Prizes in Disguise contest.

;''Cybertron''
{{main|Get Your Key To Cybertron}}
*Peel-off stickers and game pieces promoted the "Get Your Key To Cybertron" instant win game.

==References==
{{reflist}}
[[Category:Pack-in material| ]]

The War Within issue 5

2017-06-13T01:04:22Z

Zackmak: /* Reprints */

Pack-in material

2017-06-13T01:03:11Z

Zackmak: /* Full-sized comics */

[[File:Youhavebeenchosen.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|The besotted [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]] has chosen [[You|YOU]].]]
Since the very beginning of ''Transformers,'' [[Hasbro]] has been including '''pack-in material''' with toys. The first example was the [[Catalog|toy catalog]], simply advertising all the available Transformers. But soon these were accompanied with mail-order flyers for additional exclusive toys, then mini-comics, contests, and more. In more recent years, CD-ROMs and DVDs have come into vogue, containing cartoon episodes and various interactive features, though more "low-tech" items like stickers and collector cards are still common.
{{note|The term "pack-in material" is used here for lack of a better, official option. If Hasbro has a term for this kind of media, we are unaware of it.}}

==Catalogs==
{{main|Catalog}}
Hasbro has often used pack-in catalogs to advertise their range of available toys. In the days of ''Generation 1,'' they were expansive affairs that would document an entire year's worth of product. In more recent lines, they tend to have a more limited focus, though they do occasionally branch out into advertising for other toylines.

==Mail-order flyers==
In Generation 1, Hasbro sold certain toys exclusively via mail-order flyers included with retail toys. [[Reflector (G1)|Reflector]], the [[Omnibot (G1)|Omnibots]], and the [[Powerdasher]]s are probably the most well-known of these. Mail-order flyers were also used to sell a few other Transformers that had been discontinued from the main line. Membership in the [[S.T.A.R.S.]] fanclub was also available, and many flyers contained story material related to this that constituted a [[S.T.A.R.S. continuity|distinct micro-continuity]].

;1984
[[File:Lookinsideforaspecialoffer.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Reinforcements from Cybertron!]]"

;1985
*"[[The battle is far from over!]]"
*"[[Earthlings: THE S.T.A.R.S. need your help now!]]"
*"[[Look Inside for a Special Offer!]]"
*"[[Have the Decepticons defeated us once and for all?]]"

;1986
[[File:Decipherthedecepticon3a.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Can one boy, alone, hold back the evil Decepticons?]]"
*"[[Decipher the Decepticon]]" Sweepstakes (4 different [[posters]])
*"[[You Have Been Chosen.]]"
*"[[Inside...a Transformer Not Sold in Any Store!]]"

;1987
*"[[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]]"
*"[[Transformers Combat Data]]"

;1988
*"[[The Autobots Are Under Attack!]]"

==Mini-comics==
Hasbro and Takara have been known to include mini-comics with toys, sometimes to tie in with a specific promotion, and sometimes to augment the line as a whole.

;Generation 1
*"[[Start Your Own Decoy Collection]]", packed alongside [[decoy]]s on certain carded Transformers.
*"[[In the Transformers]]", included with toys distributed in Europe by [[Milton Bradley]].

;''Generation 2''
*A series of 16 [[Transformers: G-2 (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] by [[Hidetsugu Yoshioka]] were packaged with the instruction manuals by [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] for the line's Japanese release.

;''Beast Wars''
*"[[Optimus Primal vs Megatron!]]", included only with the two-pack of Basic-sized [[Megatron (BW)/toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]].

;''Armada''
*[[Transformers: Armada (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Armada'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Energon''
*[[Transformers: Energon (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Energon'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Rescue Hero Go-Bots''
*[[Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots (manga)|''Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots'' mini-manga]], nineteen issues were produced and distributed with the toys either in a booklet or on the box.

;''Robotmasters''
*A series of two [[Robotmasters (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] came packaged with early ''Robotmasters'' toys.

;''Henkei! Henkei!''
*Mini-[[manga]] were packaged with every toy in each wave, totaling [[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (pack-in manga)|12 volumes]].

;''Transformers: Dark of the Moon''
*The four Target exclusive Deluxe toys [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys|Bumblebee]], [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]], and [[Space Case (DOTM)|Space Case]], and two Voyager toys [[Ratchet (Movie)/toys|Ratchet]] and [[Starscream (Movie)/toys|Starscream]], each contained a character-specific mini-comic.

==Full-sized comics==
;"Titanium - War Within"
*An IDW-labeled variant-cover (War Within Optimus Prime fighting War Within Megatron in front of a yellow smoke-filled sky) of defunct Dreamwave's 2003 War Within #5, Vol. 1 comic, included with the 2007 'Battle Packs' 2-figure box release of this series' versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron. IDW also numbered this #5.
;''Universe (2008)''
*Reprints of [[Escalation|''War Within: The Dark Ages'' #2]] and [[Target: 2006|Marvel UK #82]] were included with thematically-relevant two-packs... except each two-pack accidentally came with the comic intended for the other one. Whoops. Even worse, the Canadian releases of these two-packs completely lacked the comics despite advertising them on their packaging.
*A reprint of [[Marvel Comics]]' [[The Transformers (issue)|''The Transformers'' #1]] was included with the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 Series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]. This time around, the bilingual English/French Canadian release ''didn't'' advertise the (English-only) comic on the packaging but included it nonetheless!
;"Reveal the Sheild"
*A new IDW comic titled Rodimus vs. Cyclonus was included in this 'Battle In Space' 2-pack which included Classics deluxe Rodimus and Universe deluxe Cyclonus with Nightstick. This comic takes place during the events of The Transformers: The Movie.

;''Animated''
*[[First (and Second) in Flight|The final issue]] of the ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]]'' comic series ''[[Transformers Animated: The Arrival]]'' was included with the [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] and [[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]] toy twin pack.

;''Generations''
[[File:T30 Trailcutter pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Thrilling 30'': English-only United States packaging with comic book (right), multilingual Canadian/Latin American "waste of space" version without comic book (center) and multilingual European "compact" version without comic book (right).]]
*The United States releases of the ''[[Thrilling 30]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of [[IDW Publishing|IDW]] comics (sporting new "Hasbro exclusive" covers) in which the respective character plays a (more or less) prominent part. The first two waves of ''Thrilling 30'' figures included reprints of the characters' ''[[The Transformers: Spotlight|Spotlight]]'' issues; the third wave included four issues that served as lead-ups to the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Dark Cybertron]]'' event; and the remaining four waves included the twelve-issue ''Dark Cybertron'' event itself in its entirety. These comics are generally bowdlerized versions of the original printings, removing overt references to weaponry and death and substituting them with more family-friendly turns of phrase such as "destroy" or "blaster" (though not always with 100% consistency), as well as various other inexplicable changes. While Australia, New Zealand and Hasbro's Asian markets received the same versions that were released in the United States (as per usual) including the comics, the [[multilingual packaging|multilingual]] Canadian/Latin American versions once again lacked the comics, as did the European versions (though only wave 1 of the ''Thrilling 30'' Deluxes actually saw a European release).
*Likewise, the ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of IDW comics as well, this time including the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Combiner Wars]]'' event and assorted issues that were retroactively declared "prequels". Since all other ''Combiner Wars'' price points included collector cards, Hasbro took the opportunity and included such collector cards with the Deluxes in those markets that wouldn't get comic books as well. Due to production schedule problems,<ref name="tf15jerry">[http://bwtf.com/events/toyfair2015/interview-part1 Interview with Jerry Jivoin at BWTF.com]</ref> the wave 1 Deluxes were initially only available in Canadian/Latin American packaging (with collector cards) in the U.S. and Australasia. Though a re-release of those figures including the comics was planned, only [[Drag Strip (G1)#Generations|Decepticon Dragstrip]] was actually re-released in this fashion.
{{-}}

==Collector's cards==
A common pack-in item, collector's cards are an easy way for Hasbro to give customers a little something extra with their purchases.

;''Generation 2''
{{main|Real Action Pop-Ups 3-D Transformer Trading Card}}
*Some toys in the ''Generation 2'' line came with a multi-fold card which featured the toy's [[bio]] and [[Tech Spec]] inside, and a pop-up version of the [[package art|character art]] on the outside.

;''Beast Wars''
*The Japanese editions of ''Beast Wars'' toys each came with a collector's card (alternately labeled a "DESTRON CARD" or "CYBERTRON CARD") featuring a faction symbol on one side, and character art, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars II''
*Toys from the ''Beast Wars II'' line each came with a collector's card featuring a rendering of the character on a photographic background on one side, and a toy photo, bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars Neo''
*The ''Beast Wars Neo'' toys each came with a collector's card featuring character art on one side, and toy photos, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Armada''
*''Armada'' toys came with a glossy, single-sided, playing card-sized sticker featuring character art by [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]].
*''Micron Legend'' toys came with a collector's card featuring package art on one side and toy photos, bios and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Heroes of Cybertron''
*Toys in the ''[[Heroes of Cybertron]]'' line each came with collector's card with the character's package art on one side, and a bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Energon''
[[File:CW Swindle pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Combiner Wars'' Deluxes in English-only packaging (left) included comic books, while those on multilingual Canadian/Latin American (center) or European (right) packaging included collector cards instead.]]
*Toys from the ''Energon'' franchise included a playing-card sized collector's card, with character art on one side, and tri-lingual Tech Spec ratings on the other.

;''Masterpiece''
*''Masterpiece'' toys each come with a collector's card featuring package art on one side with bios and Tech Specs on the reverse.

;''Generations''
*As mentioned above, collector cards were included with all ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]'' [[size class|price points]] that came in [[multilingual packaging]], except for the Deluxes which were available in English-only packaging in the United States, Australia and Hasbro's Asian markets (but ''did'' come with collector cards in Canada, Latin America and Europe).
*With ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'', English-only packaging and comic books were dropped entirely, thus ''all'' price points except for the single-pack [[Titan Master]]s were available in multilingual packaging with collector cards regardless of market. This time, the cards featured Tech Specs stats on their back.
{{-}}

==VHS Tapes==
{{main|Hasbro}}
In [[1998]], Hasbro included VHS tapes of ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' with [[redeco]]es of [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and [[Razorclaw (BW)|Razorclaw]] in the US and [[Claw Jaw]] and [[Spittor (BW)|Spittor]] in the UK.

==CD-ROMs and DVDs==
In the modern era, compact-disc storage has become an economical way to include promotional material with toys, from mini-comics to games to full TV episodes.

;''Universe (2003)'' / ''Armada''
{{main|Universe CD-ROM}}
*The ''Transformers: Universe'' CD-ROM was included with select ''Universe'' and ''Armada'' toys.

;''Robotmasters''
{{main|Robotmasters (cartoon)}}
*DVDs were packaged with redecoes of ''Robotmasters'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Robotmasters|G1 Convoy]], [[Optimus Primal/toys#Robotmasters|Beast Convoy]] and [[Lio Convoy#Robotmasters|Lio Convoy]].

;''Cybertron''
*A DVD of the ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (cartoon)|Cybertron]]'' episode "[[Hidden]]" was included with select ''Cybertron'' toys.
*In Australian retail stores, some Voyager-class figures (namely Cybertron Defense Scattorshot and Nemesis Breaker) came with a DVD which contained the first four episodes of the cartoon in airing order (Haven through Space).

;''Classics''
[[File:UltimateBattleUSEuro.jpg|right|thumb|European packaging for the "Ultimate Battle" boxset was noticeably smaller because it lacked the DVD case. In the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, the DVD was included only in a paper sleeve; in other European stores, it was given as a freebie separately.]]
{{main|Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle}}
*The ''Classics'' "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Classics|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Megatron]]" toy twin pack came with a DVD recounting the events of the [[Unicron Trilogy]].

;''Beast Wars 10th Anniversary''
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Beast Wars 10th Anniversary]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing an episode of ''Beast Wars''.
**"[[Equal Measures]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Cheetor]]
**"[[A Better Mousetrap]]" with [[Rattrap (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rattrap]].
**"[[The Spark]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rhinox]].
**"[[Spider's Game]]" with [[Tarantulas (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Predacon Tarantulus]].
**"[[Possession]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Waspinator]] or [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Optimus Primal]] vs. [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Megatron]].
**"[[Code of Hero]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Dinobot]].
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Beast Wars Telemocha Series]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing a Japanese-dubbed episode of ''Beast Wars'' and a commercial for the toyline, along with advertisements for the 2007 movie. The toys also came with a collector's card with show-based character art on one side, and toy photos, bio and specs on the other.
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 1)|Super Lifeform Transformers Appear]]" and "[[Victory (episode)|Make a Dramatic Comeback, Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Convoy]].
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 2)|Destroy the Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Convoy]].
**"[[The Web|Cheetus's Crisis]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Rhinox]].
**"[[Equal Measures|Operation: Time Bomb Transfer]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Megatron]].
**"[[Chain of Command (BW)|Convoy Disappeared]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cheetus]].
**"[[Power Surge (episode)|The Sky-Mountains Explode]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Waspeeter]].
**"[[Fallen Comrades|Solitary Warrior, Tigatron]]" with [[Tigatron#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Tigatron]].
**"[[Double Jeopardy|Kick of the Spider Woman]]" with [[Wolfang (Predacon)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Wolfang]].
**"[[The Probe|New Weapons of Terror!]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Dinobot]].
**"[[Gorilla Warfare|The Assassin Virus]]" with [[Blackarachnia (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Blackwidow]].
**"[[A Better Mousetrap|Goodbye, Rattle!?]]" with [[Cohrada#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cohrada]].
**"[[The Spark|Falcon Warrior, Airazor]]" with [[Gimlet#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Gimlet]].
**"[[The Trigger, Part 1|Floating Island Death Match, Part 1]]" and "[[The Trigger, Part 2|Floating Island Death Match, Part 2]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Megatron]].
**"[[Dark Voyage|Around and Around the Jungle]]" with [[Archadis#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Archadis]].
**"[[Possession|The Immortal Starscream]]" with [[Motorarm (BWII)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Motorarm]].

;Universe (2003)
{{main|The Transformers (cartoon)/home video}}
[[File:Universetoy 25th anniversary optimus prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|''Universe'' "25th Anniversary" Optimus Prime with all his accessories… that is, if you happen to live in the United States.]]
*A DVD of the three part episode "[[More than Meets the Eye (mini-series)|More than Meets the Eye]]" was included with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]… but only with the United States release. In Asia, Australia and Canada, the DVD was omitted (even though the comic book was still included).

;''Animated''
{{main|Transformers Animated (cartoon)/home video#Pack-in disc}}
*A DVD titled "The Battle Begins" was included with the ''Animated'' "[[Optimus Prime (Animated)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (Animated)#Toys|Megatron]]" Deluxe two-pack.

;''Prime''
*A DVD of the Transformers Prime episode titled "[[Masters & Students]]" was included in an "Entertainment Pack" with a deluxe [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]], as well as PVC figurines of [[Jack Darby]], [[Miko Nakadai]], and [[Raf Esquivel]]. The same episode was ''also'' included with special "DVD Edition" versions of the [[Cyberverse#Series 2|Cyberverse]] Commander Class [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Optimus Prime]], [[Bulkhead (Prime)#Cyberverse|Bulkhead]], [[Starscream (WFC)#Cyberverse|Starscream]] and [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Megatron]] figures.
{{-}}

==Contests==
Occasionally Hasbro has run contests based on pack-in material:

;Generation 1
{{main|Prizes in Disguise}}
*[[Iron-on patch]]es were included with the [[combiner]] limbs and 1986 [[Mini Vehicle]]s, promoting the Prizes in Disguise contest.

;''Cybertron''
{{main|Get Your Key To Cybertron}}
*Peel-off stickers and game pieces promoted the "Get Your Key To Cybertron" instant win game.

==References==
{{reflist}}
[[Category:Pack-in material| ]]

Escalation

2017-06-13T00:13:41Z

Zackmak: /* Reprints */

{{disambig3|Escalation}}
{{comicstory|seriesissue=''[[Transformers: War Within: The Dark Ages|Transformers:<br />War Within:<br />The Dark Ages]]'' #2
|prev=Fragmentation (G1)
|next=Devastation
|title="Escalation"
|image=DW WW2 2.jpg
|caption=Who wrote "Don" on that pipe?
|publisher=[[Dreamwave Productions]]
|date=[[November 12]], 2003
|coverdate=November, 2003
|writer=[[Simon Furman]]
|pencils=[[Andrew Wildman]]
|inks=[[Erik Sander]]
|colors=[[Espen Grundetjern]], [[Rob Ruffolo]]
|letters=[[Ben Lee|Benjamin Lee]]
|editorinchief=[[Roger Lee]]
|chronology=[[Dreamwave timeline|The Dark Ages]]
|continuity=[[Dreamwave Generation One continuity|Dreamwave continuity]]
}}
'''On a divided Cybertron, the Tagan Heights are home to a battle that signifies the escalation of the war between the divided sides.'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:Ratbatwarwithin.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Ratbat thinks the Wreckers are a superstitious and cowardly lot.]]
In the [[Well of All Sparks]], [[The Fallen]] is pleased with the [[Chaos Trinity]]'s preparations for the [[Unbinding]], saying they are reading to begin seizing those that they need. [[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]], however, is more interested in the "dark powers" that The Fallen had promised. Deciding Bludgeon needs some motivation, The Fallen reaches into Bludgeon's mind and offers him a glimpse at forbidden secrets, ensuring the loyalty of Bludgeon and his cronies.

Away, in the [[Tagan Heights]], [[Springer (G1)|Springer]] and the [[Wrecker]]s start a patrol, to keep the area out of the hands of [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]]'s [[Ultracon]]s. Taking higher ground, he finds that Ratbat has unleashed [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]].

[[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]] and the rest of the [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] consider their alignment from the base they've made in the ruins of the [[High Council Pavilions]]. Hot Spot decides to take action in hopes of preventing escalation.

Springer orders the Wreckers not to engage Devastator, but the team disobeys the order to give Springer the opportunity to get clear. Springer falls away and ends up suspended upside down in some loose wires, where he's taunted by Ratbat.

Bludgeon considers the tasks The Fallen appointed to him, and he plots to manipulate [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]].

Devastator continues to battle the Wreckers, his limited intellect manifesting in the way he rampages without consideration. The [[Protectobot (G1)|Protectobots]] arrive and combine into [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]] in hopes of quelling the combined Constructicons. The rumbles of their clash allow Springer to fall out of his restraints.

While the situation in the Tagan Heights grows worse, the Autobase is left abandoned, except for a lonely [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]].

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters|c1=
*[[Springer (G1)|Springer]] (5)
*[[Roadbuster (G1)|Roadbuster]] (6)
*[[Whirl (G1)|Whirl]] (7)
*[[Twin Twist (G1)|Twin Twist]] (8)
*[[Topspin (G1)|Topspin]] (9)
*[[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] (10)
*[[Sandstorm (G1)|Sandstorm]] (11)
*[[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]] (14)
*[[Blades (G1)|Blades]] (15)
*[[First Aid (G1)|First Aid]] (16)
*[[Streetwise (G1)|Streetwise]] (17)
*[[Groove (G1)|Groove]] (18)
*[[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] (hologram) (22)
*[[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]] (23)
*[[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]] (28)
|c2=
*[[Bugly (G1)|Bugly]] (2)
*[[Bludgeon (G1)|Bludgeon]] (3)
*[[Mindwipe (G1)|Mindwipe]] (4)
*[[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]] (12)
*[[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] (13)
*[[Chop Shop (G1)|Chop Shop]] (19)
*[[Venom (G1)|Venom]] (20)
*[[Ransack (G1)|Ransack]] (21)
*[[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] (24)
*[[Octane]] (25)
*[[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] (26)
|c4=
*[[The Fallen]] (1)
}}

==Quotes==
"I opened a door, into a realm within, a dark '''forgotten''' corner of every Transformer. A '''relic''' of what we once were. Serve me well, and next time I will leave the door... '''ajar'''."
:'''—The Fallen''' wants you to read that in [[Tony Todd]]'s voice.

==Notes==
*Springer springs. This ability was mentioned in his on-package [[bio]] but has rarely been used in any Transformers media.
*Ratbat is a talky humanoid. But in "[[Countdown to Extinction (issue)|Countdown to Extinction]]", he's silent. Ratbat would later be seen with an early "even more talky humanoid" form in [[IDW Publishing]]'s ''[[The Transformers: Megatron Origin|Megatron Origin]]''.
*Jetfire's new design for the series is based on [[Don Figueroa]]'s scratch-build custom Transformer, [http://www.tfarchive.com/creative/kitbashes/maraudimus/image/strikefire_2.jpg Strikefire]. Eventually the design was released as a figure in the [[Titanium Series]].
*When the Fallen offers Bludgeon a taste of the forgotten realm, several demonic robots are seen (one similar to [[Unicron]]), as well as a human skull and swords. This may have given Bludgeon inspiration for his later [[Pretender]] shell.
*The "[[Wavelengths]]" section contain an article from the desk of [[Pat Lee]].
*The "Declarations of War" page has reader mail answered by [[Matt Moylan]].
*A print of this issue was included in the [[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe (2008)]] '''Battle Beneath the Streets''' toy 2 pack of Springer and Ratbat inspired by this issue. At least it was supposed to. Many, if not all, sets accidentally included the comic intended for the '''Autobot Ambush''' 2 pack.

===Errors===
*"The Dark Ages" is not on the cover under "The War Within", like all the other issues.
*Moments before combining into [[Defensor (G1)|Defensor]], [[Blades (G1)|Blades]] refers to [[Hot Spot (G1)|Hot Spot]] as [[Hot Shot (disambiguation)|Hot Shot]].

===Covers (1)===
*Springer in the shadow of Ratbat, art by [[Don Figueroa]], [[Erik Sander]] and [[Saiko]].

===Advertisements===
*Video game, ''Viewtiful Joe''
*[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|''Beast Wars'', season 1]] DVD
*[[The Transformers (cartoon)|''Generation 1'', season 3]] DVD, part 1
*[[The End|''Armada'' #18]] (double-page sideways centerfold)
*[[Devastation|''The Dark Ages'' #3]]
*[[Generation 1 issue 0|''Generation One'' #0]] (back cover)

===Reprints===
{{issuestub}}

[[Category:War Within issues]]
[[Category:Pack-in material]]
*Reprints of [[Escalation|''War Within: The Dark Ages'' #2]] and [[Target: 2006|Marvel UK #82]] were included with thematically-relevant Universe (2008) two-packs... except each two-pack accidentally came with the comic intended for the other one. Whoops. Even worse, the Canadian releases of these two-packs completely lacked the comics despite advertising them on their packaging.

The War Within issue 5

2017-06-13T00:10:09Z

Zackmak: /* Reprints */

{{comicstory|seriesissue=''[[Transformers: The War Within]]'' #5
|prev=The War Within issue 4
|next=The War Within issue 6
|image=DW TWW 5.jpg
|caption=Me Grimlock say where Dinobots?
|publisher=[[Dreamwave Productions]]
|date=[[February 12]], [[2003]]
|coverdate=February, 2003
|story=[[Simon Furman]]
|pencils=[[Don Figueroa]]
|inks=[[Elaine To]]
|colors=[[Rob Ruffolo]]
|graphic design=[[Kevin Lee]]
|letters=[[Dreamer Design]]
|editorinchief=[[Roger Lee]]
|assistant editor=[[Matt Moylan]]
|chronology=[[Dreamwave timeline|Early war]]
|continuity=[[Dreamwave Generation One continuity]]
}}
'''Prime and Megatron see visions of the Matrix, while Starscream begins his destructive hijacking of Megatron's plan.'''

==Synopsis==
As [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]]'s team descends deeper into [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]], [[Kup (G1)|Kup]] makes casual conversation, questioning Grimlock's attitude. Grimlock, of course, just reasserts that he's a ''badass''. Following [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]'s [[energy signature]], they discover one of [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s planetary turbines. Adapting the plan, Grimlock orders the rest of his team to sabotage whatever the Decepticons are up to.

[[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] delivers a killing blow to ''two'' [[Guardian robot]]s, giving the [[Decepticon]]s a clear path to the last remaining core of [[Iacon (polity)|Iacon]]. From their staging grounds in the [[Decagon]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and his teammates prepare to make their final stand.

Inside of a vision from the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], Optimus Prime and Megatron witness future incarnations of themselves battling at some [[Sherman Dam|alien location]]. When not-future Megatron continues his attack on not-future Optimus, the scenery again re-aligns itself further into the future, where [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmasters]] and [[Targetmaster (technology)|Targetmasters]] continue the war. After another shift, the two arrive back in the present, but the Matrix teleports Optimus to Grimlock. Grimlock gives Optimus [[Energo weapon|his sword]], suggesting the Autobot leader take more active measures in dealing with Megatron.

[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]], planning to destroy everything on Cybertron's surface, disregards [[Scrapper (G1)|Scrapper]]'s warnings about how the turbines function. [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]], Kup, and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] overhear the plan, but are discovered by two other [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]]. With the plot discovered, Starscream activates the engine beneath Iacon. As Shockwave stands victorious, the Autobots' capital city is devastated by superheated plasma.

==Featured characters==
{{featuredcharacters|c1=
{{{!}}border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background:transparent"
{{!}}-
{{!}}style="background:transparent;border:0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] (2)
*[[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]] (3)
*[[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] (4)
*[[Kup (G1)|Kup]] (5)
*[[Guardian robot]]s (6)
*[[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] (17)
*[[Bluestreak (G1)|Bluestreak]] (18)
*[[Skids (G1)|Skids]] (19)
*[[Mirage (G1)|Mirage]] (20)
*[[Tracks (G1)|Tracks]] (21)
*[[Jazz (G1)|Jazz]] (22)
{{!}}style="background:transparent;border:0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Trailbreaker (G1)|Trailbreaker]] (23)
*[[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] (24)
*[[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]] (27)
*[[Hound (G1)|Hound]] (28)
*[[Highbrow (G1)|Highbrow]] (33)
*[[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] (34)
*[[Firebolt (G1)|Firebolt]] (35)
*[[Hot Rod]] (36)
{{!}}}
|c2=
{{{!}}border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background:transparent"
{{!}}-
{{!}}style="background:transparent;border:0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] (1)
*[[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwave]] (7)
*[[Blitzwing (G1)|Blitzwing]] (8)
*[[Brawl (G1)|Brawl]] (9)
*[[Ramjet (G1)|Ramjet]] (10)
*[[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]] (11)
*[[Vortex (G1)|Vortex]] (12)
*[[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] (13)
*[[Octane]] (14)
*[[Dirge (G1)|Dirge]] (15)
*[[Onslaught (G1)|Onslaught]] (16)
{{!}}style="background:transparent;border:0px" valign="top"{{!}}
*[[Scrapper (G1)|Scrapper]] (25)
*[[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]] (26)
*[[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] (29)
*[[Motormaster (G1)|Motormaster]] (30)
*[[Bonecrusher (G1)|Bonecrusher]] (31)
*[[Mixmaster (G1)|Mixmaster]] (32)
*[[Soundwave (G1)|Soundwave]] (37)
*[[Bombshell (G1)|Bombshell]] (38)
*[[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] (39)
*[[Thrust (G1)|Thrust]] (40)
*[[Enemy (G1)|Enemy]] (41)
{{!}}}
}}

==Quotes==
"I know it's the ''image,'' right? "Me Grimlock-- badass", but c'mon... there must have been someone you respected."
:'''—Kup''', on the subject of Grimlock

"Me, Grimlock — ''badass!''"
:—'''Grimlock''', on the same subject

"You don't think too much of our ''current'' Prime, I can see that. But ''Sentinel Prime?'' He had his head screwed on."<br>
"Eh. Not at end he didn't."
:'''—Kup''' and '''Grimlock'''

"I get a real bad feeling about this."
:'''—Kup''', doing a [[Han Solo]] impersonation

"''Hn.''<br>
''Hm?''<br>
''Fh!''<br>
''Tt.''<br>
''Ff!''<br>
''Hn.''"
:'''—Grimlock''' has [[Furmanism|FURMAN POWER]]!

==Notes==
*On the side of the massive turbine, the logo for the Transformers forum [http://www.allspark.com/ the Allspark] is visible. But while the turbine pumps hot boiling plasma that destroys cities, the forum has a mildly different function. Usually.
* The letters "BBTS" on one of the buildings at the [[Sherman Dam]] is a reference to online toy store [[BigBadToyStore]].

===Errors===
*Wheeljack has ''three'' typos within the same speech bubble: "There's a sub-planetary strata—a second skin—ready and waiting to force ''it's was'' to the surface." For the trade paperback collection, "was" was corrected to "way", but "it's" still features an apostrophe and the plural "strata" was not corrected to the singular "stratum".
*On the page of "Grimlock grunts", Grimlock's left knee is incorrectly-colored as part of his thigh in the panel where he descends deeper underground via his grappling gun.
*One of Megatron's speech bubbles also contains a typo: "It almost seems as if you have a ''gaurdian'' spirit, Prime..." Again, this was fixed for the TPB.

===Covers (2)===
*'''Regular cover:''' The [[Lightning Strike Coalition]] by Don Figueroa, Elaine To and Rob Ruffolo
*'''Incentive cover:''' Optimus Prime by [[Pat Lee]], [[Rob Armstrong]] and [[Espen Grundetjern]]

<gallery>
File:DW TWW 5.jpg|Me Grimlock say where Dinobots?
File:DW TWW 5 incentive.jpg|[[Pat Lee|The Transman]] makes Optronix a balloon-bot.
</gallery>

===Advertisements===
*[[The War Within issue 6|''The War Within'' #6]] (with the incentive cover by Pat Lee, which is actually the incentive cover for ''this'' issue)
*[[Brothers' Burden|''War and Peace'' #2]] (double page)
*[[Dreamwave Armada issue 10|''Armada'' #10]]
*[[Transformers: Armada (Dreamwave)|''Armada'' trade paperback]]
*[[Titan Books]] collections
*[[Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|''More Than Meets The Eye'' #1]] (back cover)

===Reprints===
{{issuestub}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:War Within issue 5}}
[[Category:War Within issues]]
*An IDW-labeled, unnumbered variant-cover (War Within Optimus Prime fighting War Within Megatron in front of a yellow sky) of defunct Dreamwave's 2003 War Within #5, Vol. 1 comic, included with the 2007 'Battle Packs' 2-figure box release of this series' versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron.

Pack-in material

2017-06-13T00:08:53Z

Zackmak: /* Full-sized comics */

[[File:Youhavebeenchosen.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|The besotted [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]] has chosen [[You|YOU]].]]
Since the very beginning of ''Transformers,'' [[Hasbro]] has been including '''pack-in material''' with toys. The first example was the [[Catalog|toy catalog]], simply advertising all the available Transformers. But soon these were accompanied with mail-order flyers for additional exclusive toys, then mini-comics, contests, and more. In more recent years, CD-ROMs and DVDs have come into vogue, containing cartoon episodes and various interactive features, though more "low-tech" items like stickers and collector cards are still common.
{{note|The term "pack-in material" is used here for lack of a better, official option. If Hasbro has a term for this kind of media, we are unaware of it.}}

==Catalogs==
{{main|Catalog}}
Hasbro has often used pack-in catalogs to advertise their range of available toys. In the days of ''Generation 1,'' they were expansive affairs that would document an entire year's worth of product. In more recent lines, they tend to have a more limited focus, though they do occasionally branch out into advertising for other toylines.

==Mail-order flyers==
In Generation 1, Hasbro sold certain toys exclusively via mail-order flyers included with retail toys. [[Reflector (G1)|Reflector]], the [[Omnibot (G1)|Omnibots]], and the [[Powerdasher]]s are probably the most well-known of these. Mail-order flyers were also used to sell a few other Transformers that had been discontinued from the main line. Membership in the [[S.T.A.R.S.]] fanclub was also available, and many flyers contained story material related to this that constituted a [[S.T.A.R.S. continuity|distinct micro-continuity]].

;1984
[[File:Lookinsideforaspecialoffer.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Reinforcements from Cybertron!]]"

;1985
*"[[The battle is far from over!]]"
*"[[Earthlings: THE S.T.A.R.S. need your help now!]]"
*"[[Look Inside for a Special Offer!]]"
*"[[Have the Decepticons defeated us once and for all?]]"

;1986
[[File:Decipherthedecepticon3a.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Can one boy, alone, hold back the evil Decepticons?]]"
*"[[Decipher the Decepticon]]" Sweepstakes (4 different [[posters]])
*"[[You Have Been Chosen.]]"
*"[[Inside...a Transformer Not Sold in Any Store!]]"

;1987
*"[[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]]"
*"[[Transformers Combat Data]]"

;1988
*"[[The Autobots Are Under Attack!]]"

==Mini-comics==
Hasbro and Takara have been known to include mini-comics with toys, sometimes to tie in with a specific promotion, and sometimes to augment the line as a whole.

;Generation 1
*"[[Start Your Own Decoy Collection]]", packed alongside [[decoy]]s on certain carded Transformers.
*"[[In the Transformers]]", included with toys distributed in Europe by [[Milton Bradley]].

;''Generation 2''
*A series of 16 [[Transformers: G-2 (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] by [[Hidetsugu Yoshioka]] were packaged with the instruction manuals by [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] for the line's Japanese release.

;''Beast Wars''
*"[[Optimus Primal vs Megatron!]]", included only with the two-pack of Basic-sized [[Megatron (BW)/toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]].

;''Armada''
*[[Transformers: Armada (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Armada'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Energon''
*[[Transformers: Energon (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Energon'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Rescue Hero Go-Bots''
*[[Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots (manga)|''Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots'' mini-manga]], nineteen issues were produced and distributed with the toys either in a booklet or on the box.

;''Robotmasters''
*A series of two [[Robotmasters (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] came packaged with early ''Robotmasters'' toys.

;''Henkei! Henkei!''
*Mini-[[manga]] were packaged with every toy in each wave, totaling [[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (pack-in manga)|12 volumes]].

;''Transformers: Dark of the Moon''
*The four Target exclusive Deluxe toys [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys|Bumblebee]], [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]], and [[Space Case (DOTM)|Space Case]], and two Voyager toys [[Ratchet (Movie)/toys|Ratchet]] and [[Starscream (Movie)/toys|Starscream]], each contained a character-specific mini-comic.

==Full-sized comics==
;"Titanium - War Within"
*An IDW-labeled, unnumbered variant-cover (War Within Optimus Prime fighting War Within Megatron in front of a yellow sky) of defunct Dreamwave's 2003 War Within #5, Vol. 1 comic, included with the 2007 'Battle Packs' 2-figure box release of this series' versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron.
;''Universe (2008)''
*Reprints of [[Escalation|''War Within: The Dark Ages'' #2]] and [[Target: 2006|Marvel UK #82]] were included with thematically-relevant two-packs... except each two-pack accidentally came with the comic intended for the other one. Whoops. Even worse, the Canadian releases of these two-packs completely lacked the comics despite advertising them on their packaging.
*A reprint of [[Marvel Comics]]' [[The Transformers (issue)|''The Transformers'' #1]] was included with the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 Series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]. This time around, the bilingual English/French Canadian release ''didn't'' advertise the (English-only) comic on the packaging but included it nonetheless!
;"Reveal the Sheild"
*A new IDW comic titled Rodimus vs. Cyclonus was included in this 'Battle In Space' 2-pack which included Classics deluxe Rodimus and Universe deluxe Cyclonus with Nightstick. This comic takes place during the events of The Transformers: The Movie.

;''Animated''
*[[First (and Second) in Flight|The final issue]] of the ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]]'' comic series ''[[Transformers Animated: The Arrival]]'' was included with the [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] and [[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]] toy twin pack.

;''Generations''
[[File:T30 Trailcutter pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Thrilling 30'': English-only United States packaging with comic book (right), multilingual Canadian/Latin American "waste of space" version without comic book (center) and multilingual European "compact" version without comic book (right).]]
*The United States releases of the ''[[Thrilling 30]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of [[IDW Publishing|IDW]] comics (sporting new "Hasbro exclusive" covers) in which the respective character plays a (more or less) prominent part. The first two waves of ''Thrilling 30'' figures included reprints of the characters' ''[[The Transformers: Spotlight|Spotlight]]'' issues; the third wave included four issues that served as lead-ups to the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Dark Cybertron]]'' event; and the remaining four waves included the twelve-issue ''Dark Cybertron'' event itself in its entirety. These comics are generally bowdlerized versions of the original printings, removing overt references to weaponry and death and substituting them with more family-friendly turns of phrase such as "destroy" or "blaster" (though not always with 100% consistency), as well as various other inexplicable changes. While Australia, New Zealand and Hasbro's Asian markets received the same versions that were released in the United States (as per usual) including the comics, the [[multilingual packaging|multilingual]] Canadian/Latin American versions once again lacked the comics, as did the European versions (though only wave 1 of the ''Thrilling 30'' Deluxes actually saw a European release).
*Likewise, the ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of IDW comics as well, this time including the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Combiner Wars]]'' event and assorted issues that were retroactively declared "prequels". Since all other ''Combiner Wars'' price points included collector cards, Hasbro took the opportunity and included such collector cards with the Deluxes in those markets that wouldn't get comic books as well. Due to production schedule problems,<ref name="tf15jerry">[http://bwtf.com/events/toyfair2015/interview-part1 Interview with Jerry Jivoin at BWTF.com]</ref> the wave 1 Deluxes were initially only available in Canadian/Latin American packaging (with collector cards) in the U.S. and Australasia. Though a re-release of those figures including the comics was planned, only [[Drag Strip (G1)#Generations|Decepticon Dragstrip]] was actually re-released in this fashion.
{{-}}

==Collector's cards==
A common pack-in item, collector's cards are an easy way for Hasbro to give customers a little something extra with their purchases.

;''Generation 2''
{{main|Real Action Pop-Ups 3-D Transformer Trading Card}}
*Some toys in the ''Generation 2'' line came with a multi-fold card which featured the toy's [[bio]] and [[Tech Spec]] inside, and a pop-up version of the [[package art|character art]] on the outside.

;''Beast Wars''
*The Japanese editions of ''Beast Wars'' toys each came with a collector's card (alternately labeled a "DESTRON CARD" or "CYBERTRON CARD") featuring a faction symbol on one side, and character art, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars II''
*Toys from the ''Beast Wars II'' line each came with a collector's card featuring a rendering of the character on a photographic background on one side, and a toy photo, bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars Neo''
*The ''Beast Wars Neo'' toys each came with a collector's card featuring character art on one side, and toy photos, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Armada''
*''Armada'' toys came with a glossy, single-sided, playing card-sized sticker featuring character art by [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]].
*''Micron Legend'' toys came with a collector's card featuring package art on one side and toy photos, bios and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Heroes of Cybertron''
*Toys in the ''[[Heroes of Cybertron]]'' line each came with collector's card with the character's package art on one side, and a bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Energon''
[[File:CW Swindle pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Combiner Wars'' Deluxes in English-only packaging (left) included comic books, while those on multilingual Canadian/Latin American (center) or European (right) packaging included collector cards instead.]]
*Toys from the ''Energon'' franchise included a playing-card sized collector's card, with character art on one side, and tri-lingual Tech Spec ratings on the other.

;''Masterpiece''
*''Masterpiece'' toys each come with a collector's card featuring package art on one side with bios and Tech Specs on the reverse.

;''Generations''
*As mentioned above, collector cards were included with all ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]'' [[size class|price points]] that came in [[multilingual packaging]], except for the Deluxes which were available in English-only packaging in the United States, Australia and Hasbro's Asian markets (but ''did'' come with collector cards in Canada, Latin America and Europe).
*With ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'', English-only packaging and comic books were dropped entirely, thus ''all'' price points except for the single-pack [[Titan Master]]s were available in multilingual packaging with collector cards regardless of market. This time, the cards featured Tech Specs stats on their back.
{{-}}

==VHS Tapes==
{{main|Hasbro}}
In [[1998]], Hasbro included VHS tapes of ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' with [[redeco]]es of [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and [[Razorclaw (BW)|Razorclaw]] in the US and [[Claw Jaw]] and [[Spittor (BW)|Spittor]] in the UK.

==CD-ROMs and DVDs==
In the modern era, compact-disc storage has become an economical way to include promotional material with toys, from mini-comics to games to full TV episodes.

;''Universe (2003)'' / ''Armada''
{{main|Universe CD-ROM}}
*The ''Transformers: Universe'' CD-ROM was included with select ''Universe'' and ''Armada'' toys.

;''Robotmasters''
{{main|Robotmasters (cartoon)}}
*DVDs were packaged with redecoes of ''Robotmasters'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Robotmasters|G1 Convoy]], [[Optimus Primal/toys#Robotmasters|Beast Convoy]] and [[Lio Convoy#Robotmasters|Lio Convoy]].

;''Cybertron''
*A DVD of the ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (cartoon)|Cybertron]]'' episode "[[Hidden]]" was included with select ''Cybertron'' toys.
*In Australian retail stores, some Voyager-class figures (namely Cybertron Defense Scattorshot and Nemesis Breaker) came with a DVD which contained the first four episodes of the cartoon in airing order (Haven through Space).

;''Classics''
[[File:UltimateBattleUSEuro.jpg|right|thumb|European packaging for the "Ultimate Battle" boxset was noticeably smaller because it lacked the DVD case. In the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, the DVD was included only in a paper sleeve; in other European stores, it was given as a freebie separately.]]
{{main|Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle}}
*The ''Classics'' "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Classics|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Megatron]]" toy twin pack came with a DVD recounting the events of the [[Unicron Trilogy]].

;''Beast Wars 10th Anniversary''
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Beast Wars 10th Anniversary]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing an episode of ''Beast Wars''.
**"[[Equal Measures]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Cheetor]]
**"[[A Better Mousetrap]]" with [[Rattrap (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rattrap]].
**"[[The Spark]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rhinox]].
**"[[Spider's Game]]" with [[Tarantulas (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Predacon Tarantulus]].
**"[[Possession]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Waspinator]] or [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Optimus Primal]] vs. [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Megatron]].
**"[[Code of Hero]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Dinobot]].
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Beast Wars Telemocha Series]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing a Japanese-dubbed episode of ''Beast Wars'' and a commercial for the toyline, along with advertisements for the 2007 movie. The toys also came with a collector's card with show-based character art on one side, and toy photos, bio and specs on the other.
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 1)|Super Lifeform Transformers Appear]]" and "[[Victory (episode)|Make a Dramatic Comeback, Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Convoy]].
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 2)|Destroy the Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Convoy]].
**"[[The Web|Cheetus's Crisis]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Rhinox]].
**"[[Equal Measures|Operation: Time Bomb Transfer]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Megatron]].
**"[[Chain of Command (BW)|Convoy Disappeared]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cheetus]].
**"[[Power Surge (episode)|The Sky-Mountains Explode]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Waspeeter]].
**"[[Fallen Comrades|Solitary Warrior, Tigatron]]" with [[Tigatron#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Tigatron]].
**"[[Double Jeopardy|Kick of the Spider Woman]]" with [[Wolfang (Predacon)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Wolfang]].
**"[[The Probe|New Weapons of Terror!]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Dinobot]].
**"[[Gorilla Warfare|The Assassin Virus]]" with [[Blackarachnia (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Blackwidow]].
**"[[A Better Mousetrap|Goodbye, Rattle!?]]" with [[Cohrada#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cohrada]].
**"[[The Spark|Falcon Warrior, Airazor]]" with [[Gimlet#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Gimlet]].
**"[[The Trigger, Part 1|Floating Island Death Match, Part 1]]" and "[[The Trigger, Part 2|Floating Island Death Match, Part 2]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Megatron]].
**"[[Dark Voyage|Around and Around the Jungle]]" with [[Archadis#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Archadis]].
**"[[Possession|The Immortal Starscream]]" with [[Motorarm (BWII)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Motorarm]].

;Universe (2003)
{{main|The Transformers (cartoon)/home video}}
[[File:Universetoy 25th anniversary optimus prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|''Universe'' "25th Anniversary" Optimus Prime with all his accessories… that is, if you happen to live in the United States.]]
*A DVD of the three part episode "[[More than Meets the Eye (mini-series)|More than Meets the Eye]]" was included with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]… but only with the United States release. In Asia, Australia and Canada, the DVD was omitted (even though the comic book was still included).

;''Animated''
{{main|Transformers Animated (cartoon)/home video#Pack-in disc}}
*A DVD titled "The Battle Begins" was included with the ''Animated'' "[[Optimus Prime (Animated)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (Animated)#Toys|Megatron]]" Deluxe two-pack.

;''Prime''
*A DVD of the Transformers Prime episode titled "[[Masters & Students]]" was included in an "Entertainment Pack" with a deluxe [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]], as well as PVC figurines of [[Jack Darby]], [[Miko Nakadai]], and [[Raf Esquivel]]. The same episode was ''also'' included with special "DVD Edition" versions of the [[Cyberverse#Series 2|Cyberverse]] Commander Class [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Optimus Prime]], [[Bulkhead (Prime)#Cyberverse|Bulkhead]], [[Starscream (WFC)#Cyberverse|Starscream]] and [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Megatron]] figures.
{{-}}

==Contests==
Occasionally Hasbro has run contests based on pack-in material:

;Generation 1
{{main|Prizes in Disguise}}
*[[Iron-on patch]]es were included with the [[combiner]] limbs and 1986 [[Mini Vehicle]]s, promoting the Prizes in Disguise contest.

;''Cybertron''
{{main|Get Your Key To Cybertron}}
*Peel-off stickers and game pieces promoted the "Get Your Key To Cybertron" instant win game.

==References==
{{reflist}}
[[Category:Pack-in material| ]]

War Within (toyline)

2017-06-13T00:05:31Z

Zackmak: /* Exclusives */

{{nav-ww}}

The '''''War Within''''' toyline is spread across two umbrella [[franchise]]s, ''[[Titanium Series]]'' and the [[Transformers: Universe (2008 franchise)|2008 ''Universe'']]. Under the former, ''War Within'' toys are denoted with a "War Within" sub-label on the packaging. Likewise, the ''Universe'' toys are given a "War Within Series" mark.

==Titanium Series==
===Mass retail releases===
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Optimus Prime]]<ref name="box">Not sub-labeled "War Within"</ref>
* [[Jetfire (G1)|Jetfire]]<ref name="box" />
* [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys|Thundercracker]]<ref name="box" />
* [[Starscream (G1)/toys|Starscream]] ([[redeco]] of Thundercracker)
* [[The Fallen|Fallen]]
* [[Megatron (G1)/toys|Megatron]]
* [[Sunstorm (G1)|Sunstorm]] (redeco of Thundercracker)
* [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]] (redeco of Optimus Prime)

{{Note|Fallen was available in two [[variant]]s, alternatively sporting the single name "Fallen" or the longer name "War Within Fallen" on his base.}}

===Exclusives===
'''Hasbro Toy Shop'''
* [[Skywarp (G1)/toys|Skywarp]] (redeco of Thundercracker)

'''Toys"R"Us'''
* Megatron & Optimus Prime two-pack (unchanged from the single releases, including exclusive [[The War Within issue 1|''The War Within'' #5]] variant-cover comic by defunct publisher Dreamwave, but republished by IDW with no issue number)
* [[Grimlock (G1)/toys|Grimlock]]
* [[Prowl (G1)/toys|Prowl]]

==Universe==
*[[Springer (G1)|Springer]] vs. [[Ratbat (G1)|Ratbat]] "Battle Beneath the Streets" two-pack (including exclusive [[Escalation|''War Within: The Dark Ages'' #2]] comic)

{{Note|This two-pack was exclusive to [[Target]] in the US, Zellers in Canada, and Toys"R"US in Australia. In the initial run, the comic was accidentally swapped with the "[[Target: 2006]]" issue intended for a different two-pack.}}

==Footnotes==
<references/>

[[Category:Toylines]]

Pack-in material

2017-06-13T00:01:49Z

Zackmak: /* Full-sized comics */

[[File:Youhavebeenchosen.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|The besotted [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]] has chosen [[You|YOU]].]]
Since the very beginning of ''Transformers,'' [[Hasbro]] has been including '''pack-in material''' with toys. The first example was the [[Catalog|toy catalog]], simply advertising all the available Transformers. But soon these were accompanied with mail-order flyers for additional exclusive toys, then mini-comics, contests, and more. In more recent years, CD-ROMs and DVDs have come into vogue, containing cartoon episodes and various interactive features, though more "low-tech" items like stickers and collector cards are still common.
{{note|The term "pack-in material" is used here for lack of a better, official option. If Hasbro has a term for this kind of media, we are unaware of it.}}

==Catalogs==
{{main|Catalog}}
Hasbro has often used pack-in catalogs to advertise their range of available toys. In the days of ''Generation 1,'' they were expansive affairs that would document an entire year's worth of product. In more recent lines, they tend to have a more limited focus, though they do occasionally branch out into advertising for other toylines.

==Mail-order flyers==
In Generation 1, Hasbro sold certain toys exclusively via mail-order flyers included with retail toys. [[Reflector (G1)|Reflector]], the [[Omnibot (G1)|Omnibots]], and the [[Powerdasher]]s are probably the most well-known of these. Mail-order flyers were also used to sell a few other Transformers that had been discontinued from the main line. Membership in the [[S.T.A.R.S.]] fanclub was also available, and many flyers contained story material related to this that constituted a [[S.T.A.R.S. continuity|distinct micro-continuity]].

;1984
[[File:Lookinsideforaspecialoffer.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Reinforcements from Cybertron!]]"

;1985
*"[[The battle is far from over!]]"
*"[[Earthlings: THE S.T.A.R.S. need your help now!]]"
*"[[Look Inside for a Special Offer!]]"
*"[[Have the Decepticons defeated us once and for all?]]"

;1986
[[File:Decipherthedecepticon3a.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*"[[Can one boy, alone, hold back the evil Decepticons?]]"
*"[[Decipher the Decepticon]]" Sweepstakes (4 different [[posters]])
*"[[You Have Been Chosen.]]"
*"[[Inside...a Transformer Not Sold in Any Store!]]"

;1987
*"[[Rodimus Prime remembers the Transformers greatest battle on Earth.]]"
*"[[Transformers Combat Data]]"

;1988
*"[[The Autobots Are Under Attack!]]"

==Mini-comics==
Hasbro and Takara have been known to include mini-comics with toys, sometimes to tie in with a specific promotion, and sometimes to augment the line as a whole.

;Generation 1
*"[[Start Your Own Decoy Collection]]", packed alongside [[decoy]]s on certain carded Transformers.
*"[[In the Transformers]]", included with toys distributed in Europe by [[Milton Bradley]].

;''Generation 2''
*A series of 16 [[Transformers: G-2 (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] by [[Hidetsugu Yoshioka]] were packaged with the instruction manuals by [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] for the line's Japanese release.

;''Beast Wars''
*"[[Optimus Primal vs Megatron!]]", included only with the two-pack of Basic-sized [[Megatron (BW)/toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]].

;''Armada''
*[[Transformers: Armada (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Armada'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Energon''
*[[Transformers: Energon (mini-comic)|''Transformers: Energon'' mini-comics]], four issues printed as part of that line's toy catalogs.

;''Rescue Hero Go-Bots''
*[[Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots (manga)|''Kids' Transformers: Rescue Hero Go-Bots'' mini-manga]], nineteen issues were produced and distributed with the toys either in a booklet or on the box.

;''Robotmasters''
*A series of two [[Robotmasters (pack-in manga)|mini-comics]] came packaged with early ''Robotmasters'' toys.

;''Henkei! Henkei!''
*Mini-[[manga]] were packaged with every toy in each wave, totaling [[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (pack-in manga)|12 volumes]].

;''Transformers: Dark of the Moon''
*The four Target exclusive Deluxe toys [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys|Bumblebee]], [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]], and [[Space Case (DOTM)|Space Case]], and two Voyager toys [[Ratchet (Movie)/toys|Ratchet]] and [[Starscream (Movie)/toys|Starscream]], each contained a character-specific mini-comic.

==Full-sized comics==
;"Titanium - War Within"
*An IDW-labeled variant-cover (War Within Optimus Prime fighting War Within Megatron in front of a yellow sky) of defunct Dreamwave's 2003 War Within #5, Vol. 1 comic, included with the 2007 'Battle Packs' 2-figure box release of this series' versions of Optimus Prime and Megatron.
;''Universe (2008)''
*Reprints of [[Escalation|''War Within: The Dark Ages'' #2]] and [[Target: 2006|Marvel UK #82]] were included with thematically-relevant two-packs... except each two-pack accidentally came with the comic intended for the other one. Whoops. Even worse, the Canadian releases of these two-packs completely lacked the comics despite advertising them on their packaging.
*A reprint of [[Marvel Comics]]' [[The Transformers (issue)|''The Transformers'' #1]] was included with the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 Series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]. This time around, the bilingual English/French Canadian release ''didn't'' advertise the (English-only) comic on the packaging but included it nonetheless!
;"Reveal the Sheild"
*A new IDW comic titled Rodimus vs. Cyclonus was included in this 'Battle In Space' 2-pack which included Classics deluxe Rodimus and Universe deluxe Cyclonus with Nightstick. This comic takes place during the events of The Transformers: The Movie.

;''Animated''
*[[First (and Second) in Flight|The final issue]] of the ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]]'' comic series ''[[Transformers Animated: The Arrival]]'' was included with the [[Jetfire (Animated)|Jetfire]] and [[Jetstorm (Animated)|Jetstorm]] toy twin pack.

;''Generations''
[[File:T30 Trailcutter pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Thrilling 30'': English-only United States packaging with comic book (right), multilingual Canadian/Latin American "waste of space" version without comic book (center) and multilingual European "compact" version without comic book (right).]]
*The United States releases of the ''[[Thrilling 30]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of [[IDW Publishing|IDW]] comics (sporting new "Hasbro exclusive" covers) in which the respective character plays a (more or less) prominent part. The first two waves of ''Thrilling 30'' figures included reprints of the characters' ''[[The Transformers: Spotlight|Spotlight]]'' issues; the third wave included four issues that served as lead-ups to the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Dark Cybertron]]'' event; and the remaining four waves included the twelve-issue ''Dark Cybertron'' event itself in its entirety. These comics are generally bowdlerized versions of the original printings, removing overt references to weaponry and death and substituting them with more family-friendly turns of phrase such as "destroy" or "blaster" (though not always with 100% consistency), as well as various other inexplicable changes. While Australia, New Zealand and Hasbro's Asian markets received the same versions that were released in the United States (as per usual) including the comics, the [[multilingual packaging|multilingual]] Canadian/Latin American versions once again lacked the comics, as did the European versions (though only wave 1 of the ''Thrilling 30'' Deluxes actually saw a European release).
*Likewise, the ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]''-branded Deluxe Class figures came with reprints of IDW comics as well, this time including the ''[[Dark Cybertron (IDW)|Combiner Wars]]'' event and assorted issues that were retroactively declared "prequels". Since all other ''Combiner Wars'' price points included collector cards, Hasbro took the opportunity and included such collector cards with the Deluxes in those markets that wouldn't get comic books as well. Due to production schedule problems,<ref name="tf15jerry">[http://bwtf.com/events/toyfair2015/interview-part1 Interview with Jerry Jivoin at BWTF.com]</ref> the wave 1 Deluxes were initially only available in Canadian/Latin American packaging (with collector cards) in the U.S. and Australasia. Though a re-release of those figures including the comics was planned, only [[Drag Strip (G1)#Generations|Decepticon Dragstrip]] was actually re-released in this fashion.
{{-}}

==Collector's cards==
A common pack-in item, collector's cards are an easy way for Hasbro to give customers a little something extra with their purchases.

;''Generation 2''
{{main|Real Action Pop-Ups 3-D Transformer Trading Card}}
*Some toys in the ''Generation 2'' line came with a multi-fold card which featured the toy's [[bio]] and [[Tech Spec]] inside, and a pop-up version of the [[package art|character art]] on the outside.

;''Beast Wars''
*The Japanese editions of ''Beast Wars'' toys each came with a collector's card (alternately labeled a "DESTRON CARD" or "CYBERTRON CARD") featuring a faction symbol on one side, and character art, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars II''
*Toys from the ''Beast Wars II'' line each came with a collector's card featuring a rendering of the character on a photographic background on one side, and a toy photo, bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Beast Wars Neo''
*The ''Beast Wars Neo'' toys each came with a collector's card featuring character art on one side, and toy photos, a bio and Specs on the other.

;''Armada''
*''Armada'' toys came with a glossy, single-sided, playing card-sized sticker featuring character art by [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]].
*''Micron Legend'' toys came with a collector's card featuring package art on one side and toy photos, bios and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Heroes of Cybertron''
*Toys in the ''[[Heroes of Cybertron]]'' line each came with collector's card with the character's package art on one side, and a bio and Tech Specs on the other.

;''Energon''
[[File:CW Swindle pk US CALA EU.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.67|''Combiner Wars'' Deluxes in English-only packaging (left) included comic books, while those on multilingual Canadian/Latin American (center) or European (right) packaging included collector cards instead.]]
*Toys from the ''Energon'' franchise included a playing-card sized collector's card, with character art on one side, and tri-lingual Tech Spec ratings on the other.

;''Masterpiece''
*''Masterpiece'' toys each come with a collector's card featuring package art on one side with bios and Tech Specs on the reverse.

;''Generations''
*As mentioned above, collector cards were included with all ''[[Combiner Wars (toyline)|Combiner Wars]]'' [[size class|price points]] that came in [[multilingual packaging]], except for the Deluxes which were available in English-only packaging in the United States, Australia and Hasbro's Asian markets (but ''did'' come with collector cards in Canada, Latin America and Europe).
*With ''[[Titans Return (toyline)|Titans Return]]'', English-only packaging and comic books were dropped entirely, thus ''all'' price points except for the single-pack [[Titan Master]]s were available in multilingual packaging with collector cards regardless of market. This time, the cards featured Tech Specs stats on their back.
{{-}}

==VHS Tapes==
{{main|Hasbro}}
In [[1998]], Hasbro included VHS tapes of ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' with [[redeco]]es of [[Airazor (BW)|Airazor]] and [[Razorclaw (BW)|Razorclaw]] in the US and [[Claw Jaw]] and [[Spittor (BW)|Spittor]] in the UK.

==CD-ROMs and DVDs==
In the modern era, compact-disc storage has become an economical way to include promotional material with toys, from mini-comics to games to full TV episodes.

;''Universe (2003)'' / ''Armada''
{{main|Universe CD-ROM}}
*The ''Transformers: Universe'' CD-ROM was included with select ''Universe'' and ''Armada'' toys.

;''Robotmasters''
{{main|Robotmasters (cartoon)}}
*DVDs were packaged with redecoes of ''Robotmasters'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Robotmasters|G1 Convoy]], [[Optimus Primal/toys#Robotmasters|Beast Convoy]] and [[Lio Convoy#Robotmasters|Lio Convoy]].

;''Cybertron''
*A DVD of the ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (cartoon)|Cybertron]]'' episode "[[Hidden]]" was included with select ''Cybertron'' toys.
*In Australian retail stores, some Voyager-class figures (namely Cybertron Defense Scattorshot and Nemesis Breaker) came with a DVD which contained the first four episodes of the cartoon in airing order (Haven through Space).

;''Classics''
[[File:UltimateBattleUSEuro.jpg|right|thumb|European packaging for the "Ultimate Battle" boxset was noticeably smaller because it lacked the DVD case. In the United Kingdom and the Netherlands, the DVD was included only in a paper sleeve; in other European stores, it was given as a freebie separately.]]
{{main|Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle}}
*The ''Classics'' "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Classics|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Megatron]]" toy twin pack came with a DVD recounting the events of the [[Unicron Trilogy]].

;''Beast Wars 10th Anniversary''
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Beast Wars 10th Anniversary]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing an episode of ''Beast Wars''.
**"[[Equal Measures]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Cheetor]]
**"[[A Better Mousetrap]]" with [[Rattrap (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rattrap]].
**"[[The Spark]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Rhinox]].
**"[[Spider's Game]]" with [[Tarantulas (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Predacon Tarantulus]].
**"[[Possession]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Waspinator]] or [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Optimus Primal]] vs. [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Megatron]].
**"[[Code of Hero]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars 10th Anniversary|Dinobot]].
*The ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Beast Wars Telemocha Series]]'' toys each came with a DVD containing a Japanese-dubbed episode of ''Beast Wars'' and a commercial for the toyline, along with advertisements for the 2007 movie. The toys also came with a collector's card with show-based character art on one side, and toy photos, bio and specs on the other.
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 1)|Super Lifeform Transformers Appear]]" and "[[Victory (episode)|Make a Dramatic Comeback, Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Convoy]].
**"[[Beast Wars (Part 2)|Destroy the Destrons]]" with [[Optimus Primal/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Convoy]].
**"[[The Web|Cheetus's Crisis]]" with [[Rhinox (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Rhinox]].
**"[[Equal Measures|Operation: Time Bomb Transfer]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Megatron]].
**"[[Chain of Command (BW)|Convoy Disappeared]]" with [[Cheetor (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cheetus]].
**"[[Power Surge (episode)|The Sky-Mountains Explode]]" with [[Waspinator (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Waspeeter]].
**"[[Fallen Comrades|Solitary Warrior, Tigatron]]" with [[Tigatron#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Tigatron]].
**"[[Double Jeopardy|Kick of the Spider Woman]]" with [[Wolfang (Predacon)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Wolfang]].
**"[[The Probe|New Weapons of Terror!]]" with [[Dinobot (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Dinobot]].
**"[[Gorilla Warfare|The Assassin Virus]]" with [[Blackarachnia (BW)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Blackwidow]].
**"[[A Better Mousetrap|Goodbye, Rattle!?]]" with [[Cohrada#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Cohrada]].
**"[[The Spark|Falcon Warrior, Airazor]]" with [[Gimlet#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Gimlet]].
**"[[The Trigger, Part 1|Floating Island Death Match, Part 1]]" and "[[The Trigger, Part 2|Floating Island Death Match, Part 2]]" with [[Megatron (BW)/toys#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|DX Megatron]].
**"[[Dark Voyage|Around and Around the Jungle]]" with [[Archadis#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Archadis]].
**"[[Possession|The Immortal Starscream]]" with [[Motorarm (BWII)#Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Motorarm]].

;Universe (2003)
{{main|The Transformers (cartoon)/home video}}
[[File:Universetoy 25th anniversary optimus prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|''Universe'' "25th Anniversary" Optimus Prime with all his accessories… that is, if you happen to live in the United States.]]
*A DVD of the three part episode "[[More than Meets the Eye (mini-series)|More than Meets the Eye]]" was included with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1 series|"25th Anniversary" reissue of Optimus Prime]]… but only with the United States release. In Asia, Australia and Canada, the DVD was omitted (even though the comic book was still included).

;''Animated''
{{main|Transformers Animated (cartoon)/home video#Pack-in disc}}
*A DVD titled "The Battle Begins" was included with the ''Animated'' "[[Optimus Prime (Animated)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]] vs [[Megatron (Animated)#Toys|Megatron]]" Deluxe two-pack.

;''Prime''
*A DVD of the Transformers Prime episode titled "[[Masters & Students]]" was included in an "Entertainment Pack" with a deluxe [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Toys|Megatron]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Toys|Optimus Prime]], as well as PVC figurines of [[Jack Darby]], [[Miko Nakadai]], and [[Raf Esquivel]]. The same episode was ''also'' included with special "DVD Edition" versions of the [[Cyberverse#Series 2|Cyberverse]] Commander Class [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Optimus Prime]], [[Bulkhead (Prime)#Cyberverse|Bulkhead]], [[Starscream (WFC)#Cyberverse|Starscream]] and [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Cyberverse|Megatron]] figures.
{{-}}

==Contests==
Occasionally Hasbro has run contests based on pack-in material:

;Generation 1
{{main|Prizes in Disguise}}
*[[Iron-on patch]]es were included with the [[combiner]] limbs and 1986 [[Mini Vehicle]]s, promoting the Prizes in Disguise contest.

;''Cybertron''
{{main|Get Your Key To Cybertron}}
*Peel-off stickers and game pieces promoted the "Get Your Key To Cybertron" instant win game.

==References==
{{reflist}}
[[Category:Pack-in material| ]]

Megatron (G1)/toys

2016-03-15T02:52:02Z

Zackmak: /* Generation 1 */

{{suite}}
[[File:Instructionart-megatrong2combat.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4]]
Many toys have been made of '''[[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'''. So many, they have to get their own page!

==Generation 1==
{{anchor|G1v1}}[[File:G1Megatron toy.jpg|upright=1.95|thumb|This photo needs an orange cap or someone might shoot the wiki.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Decepticon Leader, 1984/1985)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''16'''
**''Accessories (Hasbro release)'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon"
**''Accessories (Takara release)'': Sword, "high-density infrared laser cannon", 20 bullets

: Released in the first year of the ''Transformers'' toyline, the original Megatron toy began life as the ''[[Microman]]'' figure "Gun Robo - P38", which transforms into an accurate replica of a Walther P-38 pistol. This ''Microman'' figure was available in two forms: a standard version in two color schemes (one grey, one black), and the "Gun Robo - P38 U.N.C.L.E.", outfitted with three distinctive accessories—a scope, a silencer and a stock—that replicate the appearance of the unique, specialized Walther pistol seen in the popular 1960s spy television series ''[[Wikipedia:The Man from U.N.C.L.E.|The Man from U.N.C.L.E.]]'' <ref>"U.N.C.L.E. Special" Carbine at CIA Museum, [http://web.archive.org/web/20100324191047/https://www.cia.gov/about-cia/cia-museum/spy-fi-archives/item08.html archived version]</ref> It was the "U.N.C.L.E." version, with all of its special accessories, that was released by Hasbro as Megatron. When the figure is in [[robot mode]], the sight doubles as his signature arm-mounted [[fusion cannon]], but can also be combined with the other attachments to form either a "Particle Beam Cannon" weapons emplacement that Megatron can man, or a "Telescopic Laser Cannon" that connects to the figure as an over-shoulder weapons array. The pieces can also form a turret that a ''Microman'' figure can sit on and operate (that's what the tiny handles on Megatron's fusion cannon are for), but this feature was naturally left out of the ''Transformers'' version's instructions. Megatron also came with a chromed silver "high-density infrared laser cannon" that plugs into his either of his hands.

: The original ''Microman'' release of the toy that would be Megatron featured a spring-loaded firing mechanism that allowed the toy to shoot ([[for safety reasons|dangerously small]]) plastic bullets one at a time from its barrel. A similar launching mechanism was also built into the stock piece, which could launch the bullets when the accessories were configured into their weapons emplacement mode, or attach to Megatron's hip when in robot mode and launch the bullets through his barrel. As with all missile-firing gimmicks, this feature was removed from the Hasbro release of the toy, though the ports into which the bullets were inserted are still present.

: Megatron has had several variations, reissues and [[redeco]]s released down through the years; this article strives to list each distinct edition of the toy under its own respective series. The earliest variation of the toy came in 1985, when (like all toys originally available in 1984) a factory-applied [[rubsign]] was added to Megatron's right arm while another version had the rub sign on his left hip guard. Then, the following year, when he was no longer a part of the toy assortment sold at retail, Megatron was made available as a mail-away item in the "[[Digital Doom on the Highway to Destruction (G1)|Digital Doom on the Highway to Destruction]]" flier packed in with boxed ''Transformers'' toys. He cost $21.50 and five [[Robot Point]]s. To coincide with the 1986 animated movie release, he was also offered in 'The Autobots Have A Special Mission For...' mail-away pamphlet and came with a special "Movie Edition Certificate" and a round sticker that read " Movie . Edition . Transformer" with the Autobot symbol in the middle. (This item is considered rare.)

: Perhaps the most significant variant of Megatron released in these early years was the version of the figure released by [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] in Japan (pictured below). Instead of using the ''Microman'' "U.N.C.L.E." figure as Hasbro had, Takara released the ''standard'' version of the Gun Robo P-38 ''Microman'' figure, in its grey color scheme, which featured flat grey plastic on the chest and arms (where Hasbro's toy was chromed), and blue plastic on the inner arms and legs (where Hasbro's was red). Most notably, like that standard ''Microman'' figure, Takara's Megatron did not come with the stock, silencer and scope accessories (lacking even the attachment point for his cannon on his right arm), but instead came with a silver-chromed sword and retained his original bullet-firing mechanism. Takara's [[package art]] for the figure was an entirely different illustration from the Hasbro version, showing this toy's accessories, but it still erroneously showed the figure with red plastic on its limbs. This coloration was later [[Repurposing|repurposed]] by [[e-HOBBY]] for a new character named [[Megaplex (MW)|Megaplex]].

: Megatron is probably the most troubled Transformer toy in all of Transformer history, due to being originally Japanese which had different toy laws, he is frequently [[For safety reasons|banned]] due to being a realistic gun while lacking an orange cap to indicate it's not a real gun. Some countries banned it or condemmed it illegal due to criminals/or kids misusing it as a real gun and terrorizing others, or law enforcement mistaking it as a real firearm and shooting innocent people dead (as has happened multiple times in the past). For you American fans, it may actually be easier to own a ''real'' Walther P-38 handgun than this original Megatron toy.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1984/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|VSX}}
[[File:G1toy japanese megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Convoy VS Megatron''' (Multi-pack, 1985)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''VSX'''
**''Accessories'': Sword, "high-density infrared laser cannon", 20 bullets

: In Japan, Megatron was also made available in a special two-pack with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Optimus Prime]]. Both toys were identical to their individual releases. In Megatron's case, that means unchromed gray plastic, blue instead of red, and a functional firing mechanism and sword, instead of the scope, silencer and stock. This box also used an altered version of the individual release's box-art, turning his head sideways to face Prime, as opposed to the original's camera-facing head position.

{{-}}{{anchor|GoodBye}}
[[File:G1toy gb megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|''The world can be one together, Cosmos without hatred. Stars like diamonds in your eyes...'']]
*'''Good Bye Megatron''' (Multi-pack, 1986)
**''Accessories'': Sword, "high-density infrared laser cannon", 20 bullets, targeting sight/fusion cannon

: Megatron was released again as part of a special "Good Bye" set to commemorate his passing ([[Galvatron (G1)|of sorts]]) in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', packaged with [[Starscream (G1)/toys|Starscream]] (who also was now no more). Although it still lacked the chrome seen on the Hasbro version of the toy, this edition of the figure replaced the blue plastic seen on previous Takara releases with Hasbro's show-accurate red, and included the fusion cannon accessory for the first time with a Takara release, complete with the mounting point now added to Megatron's right arm. Though still lacking the silencer and stock, the toy retained its Japanese-exclusive sword accessory and its bullet-firing mechanism, with one modification: The bullets, formerly blue, were now red.

: Despite the change to the toy's colors, the box art on this set, the same art used for the [[Hasbro]] releases, was recolored to match the blue of the ''previous'' releases. Whoops.

{{-}}
*'''Galvatron''' (Decepticon [[City Commander]], 1986)

{{main|Galvatron (G1)/toys}}

{{-}}{{anchor|ActionMaster}}
*'''Neutro-Fusion Tank with Megatron''' (Action Master, 1990)
**''Accessories'': Neutro-Fusion Tank, 4 missiles, "twin laser cannon"
[[File:Neutro-fusiontanktoy1.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Uh-oh! Visual interest!]]
: Megatron returned as an ''[[Action Master]]'' in 1990, and as with most ''Action Master'' figures, he could not transform. His sculpt was based heavily upon the character's animation model design. Megatron is compatible with all other Action Master accessories and vehicles.

: He came packaged with the [[Neutro-Fusion Tank]], a large tank vehicle whose hull could transform into a base/gun emplacement, with the turret forming a flight pod. Four "corrosive smoke shell" accessories mounted on both sides of the tank. There are seats for two Action Master figures on the front on either side of the barrel, another seat inside the turret, and four pegs on the back of the tank for standing additional Action Master figures.

:The tank's turret can detach and become a "jet throne," which features flip-out wings, and the body of the tank transforms into a missile-launcher battle station. The battle station has two seats on either side behind the missile launchers (non-firing) and a stowing bay in the center for an additional figure.

:In a fairly notable omission, ''Action Master'' Megatron did not come with the character's iconic fusion cannon accessory. In 1992, however, a Japanese fan sculpted his own cannon accessory, which could plug into the figure's arm using the shoulder screw-hole (seen in the image at right). In a surprising move, Takara gave this cannon their approval and allowed it to be officially sold with their copyright stamp at a Japanese convention {{fact|which one?}} for only one day, at the price of 2000 yen.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1990/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Action Master Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|2001reissue}}
[[File:G1toy 2000 megatron reissue.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron''' (reissue, 2001)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''16-S'''
**''Accessories'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets

:This reissue of the original Megatron figure combines the best aspects of the Hasbro and Takara versions into the most "complete" version of Megatron available at that point. The set features the chromed chest and arms and red plastic of the Hasbro release, and includes the silencer, stock and sight/cannon, while also coming with Takara's sword and functional bullet-firing mechanism.

:This reissue was redecoed to make the simultaneously available exclusive "Megatron Black Version" (see below).

{{-}}{{anchor|BlackG1}}
[[File:G1toy black megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|Blacktron, nemesis of the Space Police.]]
*'''Megatron Black Version''' (2001/2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''16-S'''
**''Accessories'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets

: Where the original Takara Megatron toy made use of one of the two color schemes of the original ''Microman'' Gun Robo P38 toy, this redeco of the 2000 reissue Megatron is an homage to the ''second'', black color scheme for the ''Microman'' toy. Available exclusively through e-Hobby and pre-orders at [[BotCon Japan 2000]], "Megatron Black Version" features dark gunmetal chrome, black plastic instead of grey, and distinctive brown gun handle-grips, fists and "inner helmet". The chrome replaces the flat black plastic of the original ''Microman'' toy, which also had blue plastic on its legs and arms that is here supplanted by Megatron's now-traditional red. The toy was limited to 1000 pieces.

: e-Hobby later reissued Megatron Black Version in February 2009, now in [[Collector's Edition]] packaging. This release includes a [[Destron Leader Megatron Black Ver.|mini-comic]] explaining the story behind the redeco.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2000/Destron/BlackMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Megatron Black Version at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Generation 2==
[[File:G2Megatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|G2 Megatron is always ready for tank combat in one of Earth's many green and purple jungles.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Decepticon, 1992)
**''Accessories'': Rifle, 6 missiles, sight

: Owing to Hasbro's [[for safety reasons|inability]] to re-release the original Megatron because that toy was a pistol, ''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]]'' instead saw the release of an entirely new Megatron toy in 1992, now as a large green M1A1 Abrams main battle tank. His main gimmick is his gravity-fed cannon, which holds four of his missiles at once (the remaining two can store in clips inside his legs) and can rapidly launch them one after the other. Pulling back on the cannon's tab drops a missile into the firing tube and triggers a "lock and load" sound effect, and pressing the launch button is accompanied by a firing sound effect. In tank mode, pressing a panel on his forward section trigger's the toy's infamous battle cry of '''"Megatron Attack!"''', while pressing down on the tank body while it is on a flat surface activates engine noises.

: In robot mode, Megatron is, by the standards of the time, a very large robot, towering over all ''Generation 2'' incarnations of Optimus Prime. His legs are immobile, but he has upper shoulder rotation and elbow joints; when raised, his left arm triggers an electronic laser sound effect. His cannon and all its sound effects still work in this mode, as does his "Megatron Attack!" sound effect, now triggered by pressing down on the figure's head.

: This sculpt was slightly [[redeco]]ed (with new stickers) as ''[[Beast Wars II (toyline)|Beast Wars II]]'' [[Megastorm]].

: Furthermore, a [[retool]]ed version of the toy's lock-and-load shoulder cannon (or a new sculpt heavily based on it) was used as the main cannon on the [http://www.yojoe.com/sgtsavage/panther.shtml I.R.O.N Panther Tank] in the very short-lived 1995 ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe]]'' line ''Sgt. Savage and his Screaming Eagles''.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1993/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Generation 2 Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Hero}}
[[File:G2 CombatHero Megatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|By this point, the purple had almost completely taken over his body.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Hero, 1995)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''TRF-2'''
**''Accessories'': Rifle, 2 air-launch missiles

:Megatron was released again the following year as [[Hero (G2)|Hero]] Megatron: a smaller, but similarly styled tank based off the M1 Abrams. This Megatron was purple and came with a bellows that fired an air-propelled missile. Both missiles could be kept on Megatron thanks to clips on his turret, which become his robot mode arms... conveniently kinda simulating the "classic" Megatron arm cannon to boot.

: Hero Megatron was designed with articulation in mind, so he was loaded with multiple swivel and universal joints, giving him far greater movement compared to his original ''Generation 2'' toy. However, it's really just friction that keeps his joints tight and his parts together in [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]] (no pegs or clips) so after a bit of time and play, he turns pretty floppy.

: This toy was released in Europe, albeit with a "MEGATRON RULES"-free blank chest sticker, as [[Archforce]]. It was also redecoed into [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'']] [[Bludgeon (RID 2001)|Bludgeon]] (which has since been [[Repurposing|repurposed]] to become "[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Bludgeon (SG)|Bludgeon]]), and retooled to become [[#reverseconvoy|Reverse Convoy]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1994/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Hero Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|Go-Bot}}
[[File:Megatron-G2GoBot.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|He'd be a better shot if he could only see over his hood-chest.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Go-Bot, 1995)
**''Accessories'': Rifle

: Part of the second assortment of [[Go-Bot (G2)|Go-Bots]], this version of Megatron is a mild [[redeco]] of the Autobot [[Blowout]], transforming into a 1:64-scale Porsche 959 sports car with through-axle construction. This not only makes him roll exceptionally fast in car mode, but also makes him largely compatible with playsets from the "Hot Wheels" and "Matchbox" toy-car lines. Megatron and Blowout share the same blue and black inner robot colors, but Megatron uses opaque silver plastic with a shiny metallic silver paint overcoat, as opposed to Blowout's smoky-clear plastic. (All of the toys from the first wave that had transparent plastics were released in this wave with opaques instead; Blowout and [[Firecracker]] became new versions of Megatron and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#GobotOptimusPrime|Optimus Prime]] respectively, while [[Gearhead]] and [[Motormouth]] stayed themselves.)

: In Japan, his hood was tampographed with a stylized "T" with the ''Transformers'' logo set within the top bar, the same deco that appears on Go-Bots [[Soundwave (G1)/toys|Soundwave]] and the Japanese release of Go-Bots Optimus Prime.

:This mold was also used to make Go-Bots [[Frenzy (G1)##Generation 2|Frenzy]] and [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'']] [[Hot Shot (RID)|Hot Shot]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1995/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Go-Bot Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|CombatHero}}
[[File:CombatHeroMegatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|I AM POWERED BY UNOBTAINIUM!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Combat Hero, unreleased)
**''Accessories'': rifle, 2 air-launch missiles

: This kinda-sorta "arctic"-camo version of the [[#Hero|Hero Megatron]] toy was solicited to numerous retailers, and is one of a great many ''Generation 2'' toys to never see the light of day. Precious few samples of this toy exist.

: At [[BotCon 1996]], a donated Combat Hero Megatron was one of the items in the charity auction, along with several other canceled ''Generation 2'' toys.

::*''[http://www.toyarchive.com/Transformers/Prototypes/Generation2/HeroMegatronProtoMOSC.html "Combat Hero" Megatron in packaging at Super Toy Archive]''
::*''[http://www.transformertoys.co.uk/resources/review/generation+2/camoflague+megatron/3725 Image gallery of a loose "Combat Hero" Megatron at Transformers @ The Moon]''
{{canceledtoy}}
{{-}}{{anchor|ATB}}
[[File:G2toy ATB megs and screamer.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Cancelled?! This is all YOUR fault, Starscream!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Decepticon, limited test market release)
**''Accessories'': 12 missiles, 2 missiles launchers

: A planned-but-more-or-less-canceled redeco of ''Generation 2'' [[Dreadwing (G2)|Dreadwing]], Megatron would have transformed into a "flying wing" Advanced Tactical Bomber (when combined with his smaller "partner" [[Starscream (G1)/toys#ATB|Starscream]]) with an under-slung six-missile gatling cannon. Each wing can store three more missiles, which can "carpet-bomb" targets below by pressing the pressure-launch buttons above each. He can also transform into a treaded "tank" mode, activated by removing Starscream from the jet mode and activating a spring-loaded [[Autotransformation|autotransform]] mechanism in his wings.

: This toy's deco was used to make ''[[Beast Wars II (toyline)|Beast Wars II]]''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s [[BB]] and [[Starscream (BWII)|Starscream]] out of the same mold-set. This mold was also used to make ''Robots in Disguise'' [[Dreadwind (RID)|Dreadwind]] and ''[[Robotmasters (franchise)|Robotmasters]]'' [[Gigant Bomb]].

: According to the Toy Fair 1995 Transformers presentation, the toy's missiles were intended to glow in the dark. This feature was not carried over to the Beast Wars II BB/Starscream set.

: This figure was only released to test markets in Ohio in very limited quantities. It was never available as a wide release.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/issue02/atbmegs.htm ATB Megatron in packaging at TFU.info]''
::*''[http://www.transformertoys.co.uk/resources/review/generation+2/+megatron+atb/3590 Image gallery of a loose ATB Megatron at Transformers @ The Moon]''
{{-}}

==Beast Wars==

[[File:BWtoy-MegatronBasic.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Go Gators!]]
* '''Optimus Primal VS Megatron''' (Basic 2-pack, 1996)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''VS-6'''
**''Accessories:'' Gun/tail

:Early on the life of the [[Beast Wars: Transformers (toyline)|''Beast Wars'' toyline]], before the debut of the [[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|''Beast Wars'' cartoon]] (which definitively established ''Beast Wars'' [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] as a separate, distinct character), packaging [[bio]]s and the [[Optimus Primal vs Megatron!|mini-comic]] sold with this first ''Beast Wars'' Megatron figure indicated that he was the same Megatron from Generation 1 and 2. As such, all the Megatron toys released in this early era of the ''Beast Wars'' line are listed here for completeness, representing a [[micro-continuity]] in which Generation 1 Megatron took on these forms.

:The initial version of ''Beast Wars'' Megatron transforms into a green alligator. The toy shares a mold with [[Iguanus (BW)|Iguanus]], sporting different beast and robot mode heads and lacking the lizard's frill (though the screw hole for the frill bracket remains); as the two toys were released at the same time, it is unknown if one is a [[retool]] of the other, or if the mold was designed for both simultaneously. Megatron transforms via a spring-loaded one-step process, and his removable [[beast mode]] tail hides a non-firing blaster cannon that becomes a hand-held weapon for his robot mode.

:This mold was redecoed into the purple Megaligator ([[#CDgator|see below]]), and a different redeco was proposed for the unproduced [[Albitron]]. The Iguanus version of the mold was redecoed into [[Crazybolt (BWN)|Crazybolt]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1996/Predacon/MegatronGator/megatron.htm More information on ''Beast Wars'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BWultra}}
[[File:Bwmegatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Don't call him Barney.]]
* '''Megatron''' (Ultra, 1996)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-1'''
**''Accessories:'' Two missiles, water squirter

: This version of Megatron transforms into a purple organic ''Tyrannosaurus rex'', and is loaded with multiple play features. His dinosaur head, which becomes his right hand in robot mode, features a [[water-squirting gimmick]] activated by opening the dinosaur's mouth, while his tail folds into a working plunger-operate pincer that forms his left arm. The outer shells of his dinosaur thighs conceal spring-loaded missile launchers that fire anchor-shaped projectiles, and like all larger ''Beast Wars'' figures of the era, he features a [[mutant head]], formed from two bat-like wing adornments that fold around his robot head.

: This mold was also used to make the ''[[Beast Machines: Transformers (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'' [[Dinobot (BM)|Dinobot]] [[T-Wrecks]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1996/Predacon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on ''T. rex'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|GatorJ}}
[[File:BWtoy takara megaligator.jpg|thumb]]
* '''Megaligator''' (Basic, 1997)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-6'''
**''Accessories:'' Gun/tail

: In Japan, the alligator Megatron toy was also sold individually, as well as in a two-pack with Optimus. Both Japanese releases of the figure are identical to the Hasbro version.

{{-}}{{anchor|CDgator}}
[[File:CDMegaligator.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Because a solid grey alligator would just be silly.]]
*'''Amazon Showdown''' (Basic 2-pack, 1997)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''VS-S1'''
**''Accessories:'' Gun/tail

:This figure is a purple [[redeco]] of Megatron's alligator form, and was sold with a red and blue redeco of the bat version of Optimus Primal. This may or may not be intended to be either Generation 1 Megatron or ''Beast Wars'' Megatron—we don't really know. The set also came with a CD-ROM featuring tech specs and video clips of the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon cast and images to color.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1997/Destron/MegagatorJapan/megatron.htm More information on Amazon Showdown Megaligator at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

==Machine Wars==
[[File:MWMegatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|And that's why Thundercracker turned green.]]
* '''Megatron''' (Basic, 1997)
**''Accessories'': 2-part rifle

: Sharing a mold with his concurrently-released ally [[Megaplex (MW)|Megaplex]] (which had been a canceled mold developed for ''Generation 2''), ''[[Machine Wars: Transformers|Machine Wars]]'' Megatron transforms from a [[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes|Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor fighter jet]] to robot mode with a spring-loaded one-step transformation. The two halves of his rifle store in the back of his robot mode legs.

: Oddly, the ''Machine Wars'' stock photos (and even the boxart) portray Megatron as the gray F-22 jet and Megaplex as the blue one, the ''opposite'' of the actual toys. This means that either the package designers made the mistake, or the toys were packaged on the wrong cards. The latter is more likely, since gray is more associated with Megatron than blue. Like most other toys in the line, the boxart was recycled from an earlier figure, in this case from the [[Predator (subgroup)|Predator]] [[Falcon (G1)|Falcon]].

: This mold was also used to make ''[[Beast Wars II (toyline)|Beast Wars II]]'' [[Thrust (BWII)|Thrust]], [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'']] [[Wind Sheer (RID)|Wind Sheer]], and ''[[Robotmasters (franchise)|Robotmasters]]'' [[Air Hunter]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1997/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Machine Wars Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
==Choro-Q Robo==
[[File:Choroq megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Megatron TV Version''' (2001)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''Q/03'''

:''[[Choro-Q|Choro-Q Robo]]'' Megatron is a small, cutesified transforming figure of the Decepticon leader. He is the only ''Choro-Q Robo'' Transformers figure that does not come with a weapon accessory, but after all, he does turn ''into'' a gun. In a bizarre and hilarious touch, Megatron has wheels on his base and barrel, so that he can share the common feature of the ''Choro-Q Robo'' figures: a pull-back motor!

:Sadly, Megatron's gray plastic is ''extremely'' prone to [[Photodegradation|yellowing]] even when not exposed to sunlight and becomes brittle just as quickly, shattering to bits easily. Thankfully, the black version has no such problem.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2001/Destron/ChoroQMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Choro-Q'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

* '''Megatron Black Version''' (2001)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''Q/04'''

:This version of ''Choro-Q Robo'' Megatron is a redeco of the first, decked out in a metallic color scheme based on the "Black Version" of the reissue of the Generation 1 figure released earlier that year.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2001/Destron/ChoroQBlackMegs/megatron.htm More information on ''Choro-Q'' Black Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Transformers Collection==
{{anchor|TFCMegatron}}
[[File:G1toy tfc megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron''' (2003)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''6'''
**''Accessories'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets, [[energon mace]]

:The original Generation 1 Megatron figure was again reissued in 2003 as part of Takara's ''[[The Transformers Collection]]'' series. This release was identical to the previous 2000 reissue, in that it featured the colors of the Hasbro release of the toy, and all the accessories of both the Hasbro and Takara versions, but this time, it also included a new [[energon mace]] weapon which plugs over Megatron's hand, as used by the Decepticon leader in the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|original ''The Transformers'' cartoon]] episode "[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 2]]". Much like the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|"New Year Special"]] version of Optimus Prime released the previous year, Megatron also came with a sheet of Decepticon [[insignia]] stickers of different sizes, and a Decepticon mouse pad.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1984/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Transformers Collection Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|TFCStarscream}}
[[File:TFC09ScreamerHoldingMegs.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Sometimes I just... want to be held.]]
* '''Starscream''' (Transformers Collection, 2002)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''9'''
: A diminutive version of Megatron in his Walther P-38 mode was included as a new accessory with the ''Transformers Collection'' release of Starscream. Needless to say, he doesn't transform, but can be held by Starscream in both modes. Megatron's handle disconnects to reveal a peg, which can then be inserted into either of Starscream's fists, which were specifically resculpted for this purpose. Each fist also features a tab on its underside, into which Megatron's handle can be inserted, completing the effect. Megatron can also attach to Starscream's jet mode; the right-hand side of Megatron's handle features a square peg which is designed to fit snugly in gaps in Starscream's pectorals, as in the Generation 1 episode, "[[S.O.S. Dinobots]]". Unfortunately, this peg has, for no fathomable reason, been cast in the same sky blue color as Starscream's hands, unnecessarily making it ''as obtrusive as humanly possible''. An additional tabbed right fist for [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1|Optimus Prime]] (complementing his then-upcoming ''Transformers Collection'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Transformers Collection|Convoy]] release) was included as well.

: Megatron's post is compatible with [[5mm post]] fist holes, provided there is sufficient clearance for both the trigger and the back of the gun, and if you don't mind not using the handle.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2003/Destron/AnimeStarscream/starscream.htm More information on Transformers Collection Starscream at TFU.info]''
{{--}}

==Commemorative Series==
*'''Megatron''' (unreleased)
**''Accessories:'' Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword

: Hasbro attempted to include the original Generation 1 Megatron toy in their [[The Transformers: Generation One Commemorative Series|Commemorative Series]] of reissues, but his realistic-gun-ness posed [[for safety reasons|a challenge]]. In an attempt to convince Toys R Us (the retailer through whom the line was exclusively available) to carry the toy, Hasbro proposed an extensive redeco of the figure, replacing its silver chrome with blue and its grey plastic with bright orange, including the tip of his silencer, in accordance with standard safety measures taken with toy guns. Even this was not enough to convince the chain to release the figure and it was shelved, but the design was shown to fans at [[BotCon 2002]], where it was noted that a potential way to the market the unusually-colored toy would have been to brand it as "Lava Megatron", depicting the Decepticon leader after his dunk in lava at the end of the cartoon episode, "[[Heavy Metal War]]". Fans, however, had another nickname for it that became better known: "Safety Megatron". Notably, this version of the toy would apparently have come with Megatron's Japanese-exclusive sword accessory.

:The same images were later shown at [[BotCon 2005]]. Sadly, photography was not allowed at either panel the toy was shown at.

:*''[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=177341559109628&set=a.129078730602578.24553.129076873936097&type=1&theater Images of "Safety Megatron" on The Spacebridge's facebook page]''

{{canceledtoy}}

==Smallest Transforming Transformers==
[[File:STFMegatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Not 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime's gun.]]
*'''Megatron''' (2004)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''GTF 07'''
**''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon/scope

: ''[[Smallest Transforming Transformers]]'' Megatron was released in the second wave of the diminutive Takara toyline, including only his fusion cannon. Easily the most complex of the ''Smallest Transforming'' figures, Megatron is a just-barely-simplified version of his original Generation 1 toy, possessing the same transformation scheme and retaining most of his articulation.

:Just as ''Smallest Transforming'' Optimus Prime's trailer was released as a separate figure in the line, so too were a set of silencer and stock attachments originally intended to be released for Megatron in the line's third wave. Unfortunately, this wave, and most of the other original figures it was set to contain, was cancelled, and so Megatron was left under-armed.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2004/Destron/SmallestMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Smallest Transforming Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

[[File:Wst vsx megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Convoy vs Megatron''' (multipack, 2004)
** ''Japanese ID Number:'' '''VSX'''
** ''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon/scope

:Available exclusively through [[Dengeki Hobby]] magazine, this ''Smallest Transforming Transformers'' two-pack contains both Optimus Prime and Megatron, in homage to the original 1984 "VSX" giftset containing the original versions of the two leaders. While Optimus is unaltered from his original release, Megatron takes the homage a little further, removing the swirled pattern from the original figure's chest and replacing the red plastic with blue to emulate the original Takara version of the full-size Generation 1 figure.
{{--}}

==Robotmasters==
{{anchor|reverseconvoy}}[[File:RMtoy reverse convoy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|My Convoy counterpart is nearby. Real nearby.]]
*'''Reverse Convoy''' (Deluxe, 2005)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RM-24'''
**''Accessories'': "Reverse Blaster", missile

: A [[retool]] of the ''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]]'' "Hero Megatron" toy, Rebirth Megatron transforms into a heavily modified blue and tan [[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes|M1 Abrams tank]]. In addition to a new "[[Reverse Convoy]]" head that flips out of the same compartment as the head on the original version of the mold, the toy features a brand new "Mega Blaster" cannon assembly that houses most of the toy's new features. The Mega Blaster fires a spring-loaded blue missile, and the rear of the cannon can be removed and transformed into the hand-held "Reverse Blaster" weapon, featuring twin barrels and a rack of six (non-removable) missiles. Once the Reverse Blaster is removed, the toy's "Rebirth Megatron" head can be rotated out from the back of the cannon to take the place of Reverse Convoy's head between the figure's shoulders.

: The original version of this mold was use to make [[Archforce]] and [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'']] [[Bludgeon (RID 2001)|Bludgeon]] (which has been [[Repurposing|repurposed]] to also be "[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Bludgeon (SG)|Bludgeon]]). The toy still retains the opening panels on its forearms, despite no longer featuring the large missiles they are designed to store.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Destron/ReverseConvoy/reverseconvoy.htm More information on Reverse Convoy at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

==20th Anniversary/Masterpiece==
[[File:GunmodeMegsMasterpieceConvoy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Bang bang! He shot me down! Bang bang! I hit the ground...]]
* '''Optimus Prime''' (2003/2004)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-1'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:''20th Anniversary'' Optimus Prime included an accessory of Megatron in his classic Walther P-38 altmode. Although non-transforming, it is quite detailed and includes the individually removable silencer / barrel extension, scope, and (hinged) stock. Although notionally [[scale]]d to be wielded by Prime, Megatron is really rather small, so a diagonal sliding joint is added to his handle, allowing it to be lengthened and narrowed enough so that Prime can actually hold it. Both the stock and the sliding butt-end of the handle are made of a soft, rubbery vinyl, compared to the hard plastic of the other pieces. The stock extension connecting clamp is prone to breakage, much to the chagrin of owners who keep theirs sealed and untouched.

:Needless to say, the later-released ''[[The Transformers: Masterpiece|Masterpiece]]'' [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|Starscream]] (and [[Skywarp (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|his]] [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|redecoes]]) can also hold this version of Megatron, and each include a small round clip that plugs in under their nosecones, allowing them to wield Megatron while in jet mode, as Starscream did in "[[S.O.S. Dinobots]]".

:As the ''Masterpiece'' Optimus Prime mold has been has re-released multiple times, so too has Megatron. He was made available again without changes as an accessory for Takara's MP-4, "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#mp4|Convoy Perfect Edition]]" and MP-1L, "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#lastshot|Convoy Last Production]]", and Hasbro's "[[#20thDVD|DVD Edition]]", but has also been redecoed several times: these distinct new versions of Megatron are listed below.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Autobot/20thPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|MPGold}}
[[File:MPtoy gold megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|This thing was bad ass in ''GoldenEye''.]]
*'''Convoy''' (Lucky Draw Figure, 2004)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-1'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:Offered as part of a Lucky Draw campaign in August 2004, this extremely rare version of ''Masterpiece'' Prime is almost entirely vacuum-metalized gold, lacking any other painted detail or stickers. The same is true of the Megatron accessory, who is all chromed golden save for the butt of his handle and his stock, which are metallic golden plastic.

::*''[http://www.goldoptimusprime.com/ More information on gold ''Masterpiece'' Convoy at GoldOptimusPrime.com]''
{{-}}{{anchor|MP2}}
[[File:MPtoy magnus megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Ultra Magnus''' (2004)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-2'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:When ''Masterpiece'' Optimus Prime was recolored to become [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]], Megatron received a new coat of paint as well: the black and brown color scheme of his ''Microchange'' progenitor, which had previously been used on the eHobby exclusive "Megatron Black Version".

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Cybertron/UltraMagnus/ultramagnus.htm More information on Masterpiece Ultra Magnus at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|MasterpieceMegs}}
[[File:MP05 megatron.jpg|upright=2.2|thumb|You will pay dearly for this. Literally and metaphorically...]]
*'''Megatron''' (2007)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-5'''
**''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon, energon mace, energy dagger, laser pistol, [[Kremzeek]] figure

: Scaled to the same height as ''20th Anniversary'' Optimus Prime and designed in only twelve days by [[Hisashi Yuki]],<ref name="mpmegsdev">[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/transformers-masterpiece-47/takaratomy-staff-interview-hisashi-yuki-on-masterpiece-180888/ TakaraTomy Staff Interview - Hisashi Yuki on Masterpiece]: - I hear the first Masterpiece figure you created was MP-5 Megatron and you hold the fastest development record with it.
[Yuki]: That is right. (*laughs) I was not assigned to be in charge of it initially, but due to the circumstance within the company I was unexpectedly handed down the project. The schedule came with it and I was stunned when I realised that I was only given 12 days, about 2 weeks...To make it worse, at the time of my receiving the task, even the product size wasn't decided. (*tears)</ref> ''Masterpiece'' Megatron is an incredibly complex figure—potentially one of, if not ''the'', most complicated ''Transformers'' toys to date—designed to depict a fairly [[Show-accuracy|show-accurate]] Megatron capable of transforming into a realistic (if oversized) Walther P-38. In achieving this seemingly impossible goal, Megatron winds up with the least articulation of the ''Masterpiece'' line, as well as a notably low percentage of die-cast metal.

: Like Prime before him, Megatron comes with several of his iconic accessories from the Generation 1 cartoon: his energon mace from "More than Meets the Eye, Part 2", the energy dagger and laser pistol used in his duel against Prime in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', and a tiny translucent [[Kremzeek]] figure. His fusion cannon also contains a powerful red LED activated when the round detailing on the side of his cannon is pressed.

: Due to concern surrounding updated realistic toy gun laws, some online importers modified ''Masterpiece'' Megatron in order to safely get the toy through United States customs. This customarily involved inserting plugs into the tip of the toy's barrel, from rounded red ones affixed by adhesive to [[:File:HLJplug.jpg|flat-tipped yellow ones]] that could be easily removed. Ultimately, there were no reports of problems with the toy making its way into America, but Australia was another matter. Considered a replica gun and therefore a "restricted import" by Australian Customs, both mass shipments and individual packages of the toy were seized, requiring buyers in some areas to obtain a special permit to own him.

: Given the relatively thin clips throughout the toy to hold it tightly together in gun mode, Megatron's plastic components are particularly prone to breakage, especially on the clips on the upper black grip plates and some of the silver sections near the trigger. Many owners of this figure have also reported rust and tarnish problems on what few metal pieces he has; if your Megatron is a sufferer, check out [http://seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=16106 this guide] for solutions.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2007/Destron/MPMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Masterpiece Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|MP1B}}
[[File:MPtoy eldedroid megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|... Don't suppose these are [[Megaplex (MW)#Generation 1|Megaplex]]es now, are they?]]
*'''Convoy Black Ver.''' (2010)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-1B'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:The version of Megatron included with this black redeco of Prime—representing a mass-produced [[Eldedroid]]—was much the same as the original accessory, but with dark metallic silver paint.

{{-}}{{anchor|MP4S}}
[[File:MPtoy sleep mode megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Now even ''more'' breakable!]]
*'''Convoy Sleep Mode''' (2010)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-4S'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:Just as [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#sleepmode|this release]] of Optimus Prime was recolored in the faded black and grey hues of he took on with his death in ''The Transformers: The Movie'', so too did his Megatron accessory get a movie-themed makeover: this Megatron is cast entirely in translucent purple plastics, evoking the scene of his transformation into Galvatron from the film, in which he is first reduced to a transparent purple wireframe model.

{{-}}{{anchor|MP13}}
[[File:TRU Masterpiece Soundwave-MegatronGun.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Soundwave''' ([[January 26|1-26]]-[[2013]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-13'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:A [[repaint]] and [[retool]] of the Megatron gun originally included with MP-01 and his redecos, the '''Megatron gun''' included with [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|MP-13 Soundwave]] has been retooled in response to the breakage issues the original version suffered from. Both the sliding butt-end of the handle and the stock have been molded in hard plastic instead of the soft rubbery vinyl of the MP-01 version. A joint has been added to the stock connection point on the handle; for the joint in the stock itself, a straight pin has replaced the original rivet-style pin the softer plastic required. The stock itself no longer emulates the transforming accessory from the G1 toy, and instead features a smaller cylindrical shaft that more closely resembles the original U.N.C.L.E Special. In terms of deco, the minute red paint application on the scope is omitted.

{{anchor|HasbroMasterpieceSoundwave}}
* '''Soundwave''' (2013)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-02'''
**'''09 OF 30'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:The [[Hasbro]] version of ''Masterpiece'' [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#HasbroMasterpiece|Soundwave]] also comes with the Megatron gun. It is seemingly unchanged.

{{-}}{{anchor|MP13B}}
[[File:Megatron mp-13b.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Soundblaster''' ([[2014]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-13B'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:A [[repaint]] and [[retool]] of the Megatron gun originally included with MP-01 and his redecos, the '''Megatron gun''' included with [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|MP-13B Soundblaster]] features the same retooling as the version released with MP-13 Soundwave, although this time the pieces are cast in translucent red plastic. The only paint application is a silver Decepticon symbol.

{{-}}{{anchor|MasterpieceGoldMegs}}
[[File:MasterpieceGoldMegs.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Does not come studded with Swarovski Elements]]
*'''Megatron Gold Ver.''' (12/2014)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-05G'''
**''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon, energon mace, energy dagger, laser pistol, [[Kremzeek]] figure, [[Reflector (G1)#MasterpieceGoldMegsReflector|Reflector]] figure

: A gold-chrome redeco of the original MP-5 mold, Megatron Gold Version is a Hasbro Asia release under the TakaraTomy label (making it the first TakaraTomy Masterpiece to not be released, thus far, in Japan). It comes with all the same accessories as the original release as well as a new, non-transforming Reflector in camera mode.

{{-}}{{anchor|MP11SW}}
* '''Skywarp''' (01-[[2015]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-11SW'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:The Asia only MP-11 version of [[Skywarp (G1)/toys#Masterpiece11SW|Skywarp]] comes with the original MP-1 version of the Megatron gun.
{{-}}

==Titanium Series==
[[File:TitaniumGIJoeHeroesMegatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|THE BOX OF DOOM.]]
*'''Megatron''' (6" Cybertron Heroes, 2006)
**''Accessories'': Stand with nameplate

:Part of the very first wave of six-inch ''[[Titanium Series]]'' toys, Megatron was inspired by [[Dreamwave Productions]]' first ''[[Transformers/G.I. Joe]]'' comic book series, set in an alternate-reality World War II. Since the gun mode Megatron sported in that story was nonviable as a toy, this toy features a newly-designed tank alternate mode of made-up model. The backstory of the Megatron from the crossover, including references to Cobra, was retained on the package, make it the first U.S. figure ever produced as part of a ''G.I. Joe / [[Transformers brand|Transformers]]'' crossover.

:Although the figure looks somewhat impressive, it notably has the tendency to fall apart during transformation, combined with loose joints, it was relatively difficult to pose in robot mode without it falling over, something that was entirely par for the course when it came to ''Titanium'' figures. It was known for being a shelfwarmer because of its low quality.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2006/Decepticon/TitMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Titanium Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|TiWarWithin}}
[[File:Megatrontitaniumtww.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|THE... NAP OF DOOM?]]
*'''War Within Megatron''' (6" Cybertron Heroes, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Arm cannon, shield, stand with nameplate

:A new ''Titanium Series'' Megatron based on his [[Transformers: The War Within|''War Within'']] design was initially shown at [[BotCon 2006]], and was released in spring of 2007. Like the original comic book design, his robot mode has a removable arm cannon and shield. In contrast to his previous ''Titanium'' toy, this Megatron has a more posable robot mode, but a fairly unimpressive alternate mode with a transformation that consists of little more than lying the toy on its back and attaching the gun/shield. There is a small clip on the back of the toy which designer [[Don Figueroa]] said was to hold his sword, seen in the comic book, but that accessory was ultimately not produced.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2007/Decepticon/TitTWWMegatron/megatron.htm More information on War Within Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|WarWithin2pack}}
[[File:Titanium war within 2pack.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''War Within Optimus Prime vs. War Within Megatron''' (two-pack, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Arm cannon, shield

:This [[Toys"R"Us]] [[exclusive]] ''Titanium'' two-pack includes the previously-released ''War Within'' Megatron and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Titanium|Optimus Prime]] figures along with a copy of [[The War Within issue 5|''The War Within'' #5]] with an exclusive variant cover. Despite being mentioned in the joint [[instructions]] leaflet for the set, the display bases which came with the individual releases of the figures are not included.

:As the mass retail release of the last waves of the ''Titanium'' "Cybertron Heroes" figures was delayed for several months, this two-pack release Megatron was initially more widely available than the individually-sold one. The pack itself was available in two variations: One version has the Optimus Prime figure more or less identical to its individual release, whereas the other one drops the additional black paint weathering, making him much cleaner-looking.
{{--}}

==Classics (2006)==
[[File:Megatronclassicstoy.jpg|upright=2.2|thumb|Paint me black and give me to a kid, ASAP.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Voyager, 2006)

:After years of tanks and jets, ''Classics'' Megatron finally found a way to take Megatron back to his root as a transforming gun, complete with a working crosshairs in his scope and a spring-loaded clicking trigger. Described on-package as a "fusion blaster", Megatron's gun mode is apparently based on a [[:File:N-strike maverick.jpg|Nerf N-Strike Maverick blaster]], and decked out in a [[for safety reasons|safety-regulation-friendly]] color scheme consisting of lots of green and purple (in an apparent homage to his old ''Generation 2'' colors), plus bright orange on both the tip of the barrel and the scope. Years later, it would be discovered that, for currently unknown reasons, the bright color of this orange plastic would fade over time, even if not directly exposed to sunlight.

:Early [[stock photography|official Hasbro photographs]], including those appearing on the toy's [[packaging]], show the gun mode's trigger and other small parts as being orange, those parts were gray in later stock photography and the final release. They also depict Megatron with noticeably different "eyebrow" [[paint operation]]s that matched those of the original Megatron toy, consisting of two small black triangles on his gray plastic forehead. The finished toy inverts this, painting most of his forehead black and leaving the triangles unpainted grey.

:In a glaring example of poor [[quality control]], the back of the packaging reads "working scope becomes anti-proton pulse ''[[canon]]''!"<ref name="canon">[http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/toys/classics/megatron/928/2/20/ ''Classics'' Megatron's packaging misspells "cannon" as "canon".]</ref>

:''Classics'' Megatron was redecoed in Japan as part of the ''[[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (toyline)|Henkei! Henkei!]] Transformers'' line by [[TakaraTomy]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2006/Decepticon/ClassicsMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Classics Voyager Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|UltimateBattle}}
[[File:Classicstoy ultimate battle megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Former Moonwalking extraordinaire.]]
*'''Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle''' (Deluxe versus set, 2006)
**''Accessories'': Rifle
: "Ultimate Battle" Megatron evokes his ''Generation 2'' form as a green tank. Like his pack-in partner, who has a spinning "power punch" action, Megatron features a similar "spinning dervish action" gimmick, his right arm ending not in a fist but a bladed polearm which whirls around with the press of a button at his shoulder. He comes with a small rifle with a rather pointless flip-out stock extension. The very tip of his cannon is a detachable piece, and can become lost ''very'' easily.

: Megatron is [[misassembly|misassembled]] in-package, with his feet swapped and attached backwards. Although not immediately noticeable due to the fact that [[:File:MegatronUltimateBattle.jpg|promotional]] and box-art photography also show this misassembly, any attempt to transform Megatron into tank mode immediately demonstrates the mistake, which is easily corrected by unscrewing his lower legs, reversing the foot pieces, and attaching each to the opposite leg (as has been done in the picture at right).

:In the United States, Megatron was only available in a special two-pack with a similarly unique ''Classics'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Optimus Prime toy]], and the specially-produced "[[Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle|The Ultimate Battle]]" DVD (which is, inappropriately enough, entirely about the [[Unicron Trilogy]]). The two-pack (including the DVD) was also available as a [[Walmart]] [[exclusive]] "Bonus Value" version with two randomly selected members of the ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (toyline)|Cybertron]]'' [[Giant Planet Mini-Con Team]], in the combinations [[Overcast (Cybertron)|Overcast]]/[[Longarm (Cybertron)|Longarm]], Overcast/[[Deepdive]] and Deepdive/Longarm. International markets, including European countries, saw the two-pack in a considerably smaller, differently-shaped box that was lacking the DVD case (in the [[United Kingdom]] and the Netherlands, the DVD just came in a paper sleeve; in other European countries, it was instead made available separately). In addition, the two figures were also sold on [[#cardedultbattle|individual cardbacks]] in some countries (see below). For the United States market, the two-pack was [[rebranding|rebranded]] and [[#universeultbattle|re-released]] in the [[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|''Universe'']] line in 2007, and [[#2010ultimatebattle|again in 2011]] for the [[Transformers (2010 toyline)|2010 ''Transformers'']] line.

:Not initially released in Japan, this sculpt only got a TakaraTomy release six years later when it was redecoed into "[[#UnitedTank|Tank Megatron]]" for TakaraTomy's ''[[Transformers United|United]]'' toyline.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2006/Decepticon/ClassicsDVDMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Classics Deluxe Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|cardedultbattle}}
[[File:Classicstoy ultimate battle megatron carded.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb]]
*'''Megatron''' (Deluxe, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Rifle

:The "Ultimate Battle" version of Megatron was also sold on his own in several countries, Mexico, Singapore, and some European countries including the [[United Kingdom]], the Netherlands, Hungary and also Russia. He is identical to the two-pack version, down to his misassembled feet.
{{-}}

==Universe (2003)==
{{anchor|universeultbattle}}[[File:Universetoy ultimate battle.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle''' (multi-pack, 2007/2008)
**''Accessories:'' Rifle

:The "Ultimate Battle" two-pack, sans DVD, was [[rebranding|rebranded]] for inclusion in the ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]]'' toy line, and one was one of the last releases to come out of the line, several years after it had ceased regularly releasing figures. The set appeared in liquidation outlets like Big Lots! and Dollar General stores in Fall 2007, then later in [[KB Toys]] in Summer 2008. The figures remain identical to their previous releases, with Megatron's feet still coming assembled backwards.
{{-}}

==Sports Label==
[[File:Nikeatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Some idiots thought I was going to be life-sized! Fools! Foooools!!!]]
*'''Megatron featuring Nike Free 7.0''' (2007)
**''ID number:'' '''02'''
**''Accessories:'' Gun

:''[[Transformers Sports Label|Sports Label]]'' Megatron is a retool of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Sports Label|''Sports Label'' Optimus Prime]], one of the strangest examples of licensed ''Transformers'' products in that he transforms into a ''shoe''. Something of a [[shellformer]], this baffling incarnation of Megatron is primarily black and silver in his alternate mode as a realistic-looking (if notably undersized) Nike Free 7.0 sneaker, complete with gratuitously long real fabric shoelaces (characterized as "electrical discharge cables" in his bio). In robot mode, he sports some additional red paint applications and a somewhat uniquely-shaped yet instantly recognizable Generation 1-inspired head. Also in this mode, Megatron's feet are sculpted in the likeness of his own sneaker mode, making it seem like he's wearing himself!

:His gun splits into two halves and stores inside his [[kibble]] in shoe mode; in an undocumented features, it has two handle pegs on opposite sides, so that it can be held either at its far end or halfway along its length. The gun halves can also be plugged together in two different ways.

:This mold might have been planned for a redeco into [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Sports Label|''Sports Label'' Starscream]], but that's a bit vague.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2007/Destron/SLMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Sports Label'' Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Encore==
[[File:Encoretoy megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron''' (2007)
**''ID number:'' '''02'''
**''Accessories'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets

:The original Generation 1 Megatron figure was reissued yet again in 2007 as part of TakaraTomy's new line of "[[Transformers Encore|Encore]]" reissues. Like previous reissues, this Megatron features the Hasbro colors and the accessories from both Hasbro and Takara editions of the figure, with the distinguishing new feature of a tan shade to both his gray plastic and his chrome.
{{-}}

==Henkei! Henkei!==
[[File:Henkeitoy megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|"Megatron's palette must be swapped... no matter the cost."]]
*'''Megatron''' (Voyager, 2008)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''D-01'''

:''[[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (toyline)|Henkei! Henkei!]] Transformers'' Megatron is a redeco of the ''Classics'' version. Not bound by the safety regulations that necessitated ''Classics'' Megatron's more colorful appearance, ''Henkei'' Megatron features a significantly different color scheme of black, silver and red designed to make him resemble his original Generation 1 appearance, including translucent red plastic to replicate his classic cartoon "Decepticon red" eyes. All ''Henkei'' toys feature (somewhat randomly-applied) vacuum-metalized chrome parts; in Megatron's case, his chest plate and kneecaps are chromed silver.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2006/Decepticon/ClassicsMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Henkei Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Universe (2008)==
{{anchor|2008legend}}[[File:Megatronlegend2008.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|His shoulders hurt too, buddy!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Legends of Cybertron, 2008)

:A [[Legends Class]] version of Megatron inspired by his ''Generation 2'' tank design, although featuring a more realistic shade of green.
:Sadly, because of his transformation, when transformed into tank mode his turret doesn't turn around. Some of Legends Class Megatron's transformation shares several similarities to his Generation 2 toy.

:Although his first stock photography features a slightly long turret, the final product had it shortened.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/LegendsMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Universe Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
{{anchor|UniSpecEd}}
*'''Megatron''' (Deluxe Class: Special Edition, 2008)
**''ID number:'' '''SE-02'''
**''Accessories:'' Rifle
[[File:Universe2008-toy SEMegatron.JPG|upright=1.66|thumb]]
:This "Special Edition" of Megatron is a redeco of the "Ultimate Battle" Megatron from ''Classics'', this time featuring a Generation 1-inspired deco of grays, red and black. This new deco takes advantage of the toy's mould break-up to add a fifth plastic colour (where the original only had four), dividing the parts which were dark grey on the original version between light grey, red and black plastic. Also marking this figure as a particularly "special" edition is the fact that it's the first release of the figure to assemble his feet the correct way around. Amusingly, his [[packaging]] [[stock photography]] depicts him as ''missing a part'': his cannon's detachable tip is missing, and the tip of the cannon's stub is painted red to somehow compensate for that.

:Like all the figures in the small Special Edition line, Megatron was designed for Australasian markets and features a bookbox style packaging with black-and-white boxart, retailing at about 150% of the price for a normal deluxe outside of the United States. He was not available at retail in North America, but was for sale on Hasbrotoyshop.com, like the other Special Edition toys.

:Oddly enough, this Megatron and the three other Universe Special Edition toys were included in Taiwanese special value packs each containing a [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)/home video|''Revenge of the Fallen'' DVD]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/HTSMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Special Edition Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{--}}

==Alternity==
[[File:Alternity Megatron Toy Blade Silver.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Behold, my Inertia Manipulating Device under my Skirt Armor!!!]]
*'''Megatron Blade Silver''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''A-02'''
**''Accessories:'' 2 "tesseractal swords"
:The ''[[Transformers: Alternity|Alternity]]'' Megatron toy transforms into a 1:32 scale model of a Nissan 370Z and features die-cast metal parts and rubber tires. The figure wields two "tesseractal swords" which can be pegged at its hips, or stored under the car in vehicle mode. Each forearm features a flip-out "gravital blade."

: In the hyper-dimensional world of the oft-confusing ''Alternity'' fiction, each figure from this line represents a distinct version of a character from a separate [[universal stream]], but which precise Megatron the "Blade Silver" toy embodies has not been disclosed. Upon its initial release, this toy was also available in blue (see below), and later redecoed in a black variant as well. It was later redecoed into ''Alternity'' [[Galvatron (G1)/toys#Alternity|Galvatron]].

:[[:File:Alternity Megatron Cannon.jpg|Early concepts]] for ''Alternity'' showed him with the trademark fusion cannon rather than his twin swords, as well as a pronounced Decepticon [[insignia]] on his chest.

{{-}}{{anchor|AlternityBlue}}
[[File:Alternitytoy blue megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron Premium Le Mans Blue''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''A-02'''
**''Accessories:'' 2 "tesseractal swords"

: "Premium Le Mans Blue" Megatron is a blue redeco of the "Blade Silver" version, representing the Megatron of [[universal stream]] [[BT World|Primax 903.0 Beta]]. The figure was available simultaneously with Megatron Blade Silver, sharing the same packaging and pack-in materials, save for the color of the illustration on the front of the box, and a sticker that identified the figure within.

{{-}}{{anchor|AlternityBlack}}
[[File:Alternitytoy black megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron Diamond Black''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''A-02'''
**''Accessories:'' 2 "tesseractal swords"

: Another redeco of ''Alternity'' Megatron, this time transforming into a black car with robot parts in red and gold, and specifically representing the Megatron of universal stream [[Primax 1286.3 Kappa]]. It was released several months after the first two Megatrons and featured a new package illustration.
{{-}}

==United==
[[File:Unitedtoy cybertron megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron Cybertron Mode''' (Deluxe, [[December 25|12-25]]-2010)
**''ID number'': '''UN-04'''
**''Accessories'': Cannon/missile launcher, energy-blast missile

: Part of the first wave of ''[[Transformers United|United]]'' product, "Cybertron Mode" Megatron is a [[redeco]] of the [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Generations|''War for Cybertron'' Megatron toy]], transforming into a Cybertronian self-propelled gun. The treads of his vehicle can be positioned in either a vertical configuration like a traditional tank or in a horizontal, hovertank configuration. Megatron's spring-loaded cannon can attach to either arm.

:Megatron is cast in a deep dark metallic gray plastic rather than the light gray plastic of the Hasbro version. He also features a blood red metallic paint instead of the more traditional red used on the Hasbro version. Other notable differences include the Decepticon symbol upon his chest as well as lacking paint on the sliding mechanism within his fusion cannon.

:This mold was also used to make [[Darkside Megatron]].

{{-}}{{anchor|UnitedEarth}}
[[File:United Megatron voyager toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|No, I didn't direct any of the ''Taken'' films!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Voyager, 2010)
**''ID number:'' '''UN-09'''

:The second ''United'' Megatron (but still part of the first assortment) is a redeco of the Voyager Class mold from ''[[#Classics (2006)|Classics]]/[[#Henkei! Henkei!|Henkei!]]''.

:This release of Megatron features an extensive silver paint job, as well as metallic crimson for details. This figure's deco is based on the G1 cartoon model, removing any extraneous painted details from the previous releases. The face and eyebrow crest are painted white, giving it an appearance very similar to the initial solicitations of ''[[Transformers: Classics|Classics]]'' Megatron.

{{-}}{{anchor|UnitedTank}}
[[File:Unitedtoy thunder megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|"Megatron rules!" isn't written anywhere on my body, so doesn't that technically make me [[Archforce]]?]]
*'''Tank Megatron''' (Deluxe, [[January 28|1-28]]-2012)
**''ID number:'' '''UN-25'''
**''Accessories:'' Rifle

:Tank Megatron is the first Japanese release of the "Ultimate Battle" Megatron mold from ''Classics'', in a new color scheme paying homage to his ''Generation 2'' "Hero" deco. The connection is strengthened by the [[:File:United Megatron Rules.jpg|photo on the back of the packaging]], which depicts Megatron standing in a ruined, burning landscape, surrounded by over a dozen "Megatron Rules" signs.
{{-}}

==Transformers (2010)==
{{anchor|2010Legend}}
[[File:TF2010-toy Legends Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Safety first!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Legends, 2011)

:Part of the [[Transformers (2010 toyline)|2010 ''Transformers'' line's]] "[[Reveal the Shield]]" [[subline imprint]], this toy is based on Megatron's Generation 1 cartoon appearance (with a little inspiration from [[IDW Publishing|IDW]]'s ''[[The Transformers: All Hail Megatron|All Hail Megatron]]'' design around the abdomen), transforming into a variation on Megatron's original gun mode (referred to as a "blaster" on Hasbro's website). As he was part of Reveal the Shield, he has a [[rubsign]] on his chest.

[[File:MP Acid Storm-Chronicle gun Megatron-Pull My Trigger.jpg|thumb|right|upright=0.85|To hell with safety!]]
:In a fit of complete awesomeness, the figure is sculpted with notches in its handle that specifically allow the ''Masterpiece'' [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|Starscream]] mold to grip it. Additionally, the slightly thicker portion of the barrel closer to the main body can be held by the clip included with ''Masterpiece'' Starscream and attach to his jet mode. Unfortunately, Megatron can only be held vertically.

:Despite his tiny size, Hasbro had to cast much of the gun (his arms, the barrel/fusion cannon, and the upper half of his torso) in orange plastic [[for safety reasons]]. Official Hasbro [[stock photography|stock photos]] and early [[prototype|samples]] from China had the orange plastic on the barrel fully painted over in gray, yet the final toy leaves the end of the barrel unpainted.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2011/Decepticon/RTSMegatron/megatron.htm More information on "Reveal the Shield" Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|2010ultimatebattle}}
[[File:TF2010toy ultimate battle.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''The Ultimate Battle''' (multi-pack, 2011)
**''Accessories:'' Rifle
:Another [[rebranding|rebranded]] re-release of the ''Classics'' "[[#Ultimate.2BBattle|Ultimate Battle]]" set, again lacking the DVD and featuring [[misassembly|misassembled]] feet on Megatron. This particular release of the set was available as a "shared exclusive" between Dollar General stores and online retailer [[BigBadToyStore]]. This set was also available at Canadian Tire stores in [[Canada]].
{{-}}

{{anchor|DollarLegends}}
*'''Megatron''' (Legends Class, 2012)
:A [[rebranding|rebranded]] version of ''[[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]]'' Legends Class Megatron without changes (besides the packaging) was released as a "Dollar Store" exclusive (available at stores such as Dollar General and Big Lots) in generic 2010 ''Transformers'' packaging packaging alongside [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#DollarLegends|Optimus Prime]], [[Starscream (G1)/toys#DollarLegends|Starscream]] and [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#DollarLegends|Bumblebee]].
{{picsneeded}}
{{-}}

==G.I. Joe and the Transformers==
[[File:JoevsTF megatron accessory.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|That's nice, but where's the [[Joey Slick]] figure?]]
*'''Starscream Sky Striker (XP-21F)''' (San Diego Comic-Con exclusive, 2011)

: Produced exclusively for [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2011, this redeco of the ''G.I. Joe'' [[Skystriker (vehicle)|Skystriker]] jet plane into [[Starscream (G1)/toys#G.I. Joe and the Transformers|Starscream]] colors comes with a 3.75" [[Cobra Commander#G.I. Joe and the Transformers 2|Cobra Commander]] pilot figure, among whose accessories is a non-transforming gun mode Megatron.
{{--}}

==Chronicle==
[[File:Chronicletoy ez megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron''' (EZ Collection, 2011)

:A redeco of the 2010 ''Transformers'' Legends Class Megatron was released in Japan as part of the ''[[Transformers Chronicle|Chronicle]]'' EZ Collection line. Due to Japan's different gun laws, he is instead cast in gray plastic, with the barrel being fully painted. The gray paint on the aforementioned barrel is also darker and metallic, (instead of Hasbro's glossy light-gray paint) his red [[paint operation]]s are darker, and he replaces the rubsign with a full-color Decepticon symbol [[tampograph]]. This toy was only available [[Blindpacking|blindpacked]].

{{-}}
{{anchor|G1MovieMegatron}}
[[File:Chronicletoy-CH02G1Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''G1 Megatron & Movie Megatron''' (multi-pack, 2011)
**''ID number:'' '''CH02'''
**''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets

:This [[e-HOBBY]]-exclusive reissue of the original Generation 1 Megatron toy comes in a two-pack with a redeco of ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)|Dark of the Moon]]'' Voyager Class [[Megatron (Movie)/toys#Chronicle|Megatron]]. This version of Megatron is made to the specifications of the 1986 "[[#GoodBye|Goodbye Megatron]]" release, featuring red plastic (as opposed to the original Takara blue) but lacking any silver chrome, including his fusion cannon but not his stock and silencer, armed with his laser cannon and sword, and retaining his bullet-firing mechanism. Like most Megatron reissues, the toy features a slight variation in plastic colors from previous releases, this time giving him a darker warmer gray than normal. In a new twist, this version of Megatron features tampographed symbols on his chest and back.

{{-}}
{{anchor|ChronicleEZHero}}
[[File:Chronicletoy ez series2 megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|[[Trukk not munky|Gunn not Tank]]!...no wait, tank is cooler.]]
*'''Megatron''' (EZ Collection, 2011)

:A [[redeco]] of the [[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]] [[Legends Class]] Megatron, this time inspired by his smaller ''Generation 2'' "Hero" tank design.
{{-}}

==Generations==
{{anchor|GenerationsVoyager}}
[[File:GenerationsGDOtoy-Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|[[Bludgeon (RID 2001)|What goes around, comes around.]]]]
*'''Megatron''' (Voyager Class, 2012)
**''Accessories:'' [[Wikipedia:Katana|Katana]], [[Wikipedia:Wakizashi|tanto]]
: ''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' Megatron is an Asian market and Toys"R"Us-exclusive redeco/retool of ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen:]] [[N.E.S.T. Global Alliance]]'' Voyager Class [[Bludgeon (ROTF)#Voyager|Bludgeon]], sporting a new, smiling head. Megatron transforms from a Japanese [[Wikipedia:Type 90 Kyū-maru|Type 90]] tank into a samurai-esque robot mode. He features a flexible plastic sword which is made out of a portion of the barrel of the tank's main gun, as well as a smaller dagger. The dagger can be stored in a sheath which is revealed from inside the tank turret, and both blades can be slotted in holes provided on the robot mode's left hip guard. The larger sword has a peghole at the bottom of the hilt; though it is specifically designed to allow the dagger's handle to fit in the base to form a double-bladed weapon, it can also fit any other accessory that uses [[5mm post|5mm posts]]. The post used to combine the swords remains unobstructed in vehicle mode, meaning you can attach the dagger to the end of Megatron's main tank cannon if you're feeling silly. He also has [[Mech Alive]] [[gimmick|gimmicks]] in his thighs and turret: sculpted cylinders in his thighs rotate whenever his lower legs are rotated, and pulling his turret open makes a sculpted white "disc" at the center rotate while a scabbard for the tantō hinges over to the side and props itself up for use.

:The vehicle mode is one of the very few Transformer tank toys with rubber components to its treads. Portions of the tread links can unlock, allowing them to hang from the robot mode, while the wheels of the treads are integrated separately into the robot mode form itself. The treads still do not function realistically; small plastic wheels on the underside of the treads help the tank mode roll, as is standard with nearly all Transformer tank toys. On the plus side, the tank turret can be rotated a full three-hundred sixty degrees, as can the purple machine gun that sits atop the turret.

:Unlike the other uses of this mold, Megatron comes [[Packaging|packaged]] in robot mode holding his swords, with additional plastic and paper ties in the tray imperfectly holding his swords in position. Because they were packaged this way since they were shipped out of the factory, most Megatrons come with the swords being badly bent and warped ''in the box''. Fortunately, the swords' blades can be ''mostly'' straightened by leaving them sheathed in their hidden scabbards. Straightening their ''hilts'' is a different matter, though.

:This toy suddenly popped up for ''preorder'' at BigBadToyStore in mid-2015, ''three whole years'' after its original release.

: This version of the mold was also used to make ''[[Transformers Cloud|Cloud]]'' [[#Cloud|Megatron]], while the original version was redecoed into ''Transformers: [[Hunt for the Decepticons]]'' [[Banzaitron]], and differently retooled to make ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' [[Overlord (Masterforce)#Timelines|Gigatron]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/GDOMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Generations'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|GenerationsLegends}}
[[File:Generationstoy-T30-LegendsMegatronChopShop.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Watch yer wallet, Megs.]]
*'''Megatron & Chop Shop''' (Legends Class, 2013)
**''Series / Number'': '''02 / #004'''

:Part of the fourth wave of 2012-onwards ''Generations'' Legends Class toys, ''[[Thrilling 30]]'' Megatron is a new mold that is roughly the same size as a ''[[Cyberverse]]'' Commander Class toy. He transforms from a generic tank with rotating turret into a robot based on his [[Alex Milne]] pre-war design as seen in "[[Chaos Theory Part 1]]" from [[IDW Publishing|IDW's]] ''[[The Transformers (IDW)|The Transformers]]'' ongoing series, and features [[5mm post|5mm-compatible]] ports for his hands and left forearm/turret roof.

: He comes with [[Chop Shop (G1)#Generations|Chop Shop]], who can transform into a stag beetle, a robot, a weapon with a 5mm handle, and a mine plow that attaches to the front of Megatron’s tank mode. He features gearing that opens his pinchers when his legs are moved.

:This mold was retooled into ''Generations [[Combiner Wars]]'' Legends Class [[Warpath (G1)#CWLegends|Warpath]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/GenLegMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Generations'' Legends Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Deluxe}}
[[File:Generations IDW megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|And the fandom collectively soiled itself.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Deluxe, 2013)
**''Series / Number'': '''02 / #003'''
**''Accessories'': 2 wingtips (combine to form Fusion Cannon)

:Part of the fifth wave of 2012-onwards ''Generations'' Deluxe Class toys, ''Thrilling 30'' Megatron is based on [[Don Figueroa]]'s stealth bomber design from the IDW Publishing ''[[Heart Like a Wheel|The Transformers]]'' ongoing series (which resembles a Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit). In robot mode, his wingtips detach to combine and transform into his [[Fusion cannon#Deluxe|fusion cannon]] (although it's actually designed after the [[rail gun]] this body was equipped with in IDW's comics, but of course Hasbro couldn't call it ''that'' on a toy's packaging). The cannon can peg into 5mm ports on his hands and forearms. This design was actually taken from an official pitch without Figueroa's permission and with no compensation to the artist; a fact he was rather sore about.<ref>[http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/don-figueroa-designed-idw-s-stealth-bomber-megatron-but-wasn-t-compensated--t96022s0.php "So I read that this was being made into a toy? wow, and I thought only 3rd party companies take stuff without giving any notice, acknowledgement or compensation... FYI: hasbro nor idw solicited me to do this design, I did it on my own."]</ref>

:In the American release Megatron comes packed in with a copy of IDW's [[Spotlight: Megatron]], sporting a 'Hasbro Exclusive Cover' cropped from the [[Clayton Crain]] [[:File:SLMegatron cvrRI.jpg|retailer incentive cover]]. In European and Canadian markets the figure was released without the Spotlight.

:He was later retooled into ''Generations'' [[Dreadwing (G2)#Generations|Dreadwing]] and ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' [[Krok (G1)#Timelines|Krok]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/GenMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Thrilling 30'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|SDCCMetroplex}}
*'''Metroplex''' (Titan Class, 2013)
**'''01 OF 30'''

: An [[exclusive]] version of Titan Class [[Metroplex (G1)#SDCC|Metroplex]] was made available at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2013. He comes with 12 small, non-transforming figurines of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#SDCCMetroplex|Orion Pax]], Megatron, [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#SDCCMetroplex|Bumblebee]], [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#SDCCMetroplex|Thundercracker]], [[Trailbreaker (G1)#SDCCMetroplex|Trailcutter]], and [[Hoist (G1)#SDCCMetroplex|Hoist]], all in both modes. The figurines are based on their Thrilling 30 ''Generations'' Deluxe Class toys, and similarly to [[Decoy]]s, the Autobot figurines are cast in red plastic, and the Decepticons in purple.

{{-}}{{anchor|HKACGCONMetroplex}}
[[File:Generationstoy-T30-Metroplex-Megatron-HKACGCON.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|I... can't... move...]]
*'''Metroplex''' (Titan Class, 2013)
**'''05 OF 30'''

: Another exclusive version of Titan Class [[Metroplex (G1)#HKACGCON|Metroplex]] was made available at [[Hong Kong ACG-CON]] 2013. This Metroplex also has the 12 figurines of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#HKACGCONMetroplex|Orion Pax]], Megatron, [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#HKACGCONMetroplex|Bumblebee]], [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#HKACGCONMetroplex|Thundercracker]], [[Trailbreaker (G1)#HKACGCONMetroplex|Trailcutter]], and [[Hoist (G1)#HKACGCONMetroplex|Hoist]], but casts the Autobot figurines in gold plastic, and the Decepticons in silver.

{{-}}{{anchor|VSOrionPax}}
[[File:TTGenerationsTG25OrionPaxMegatronus.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Orion Pax VS Megatronus''' (Multi-pack, [[October 26|10-26]]-2013)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''TG-25'''
**''Accessories'': 2 wingtips (combine to form cannon)

: Released in the Japanese ''Generations'' lineup, Megatronus is a redeco of ''Generations'' Deluxe Megatron in a darker shade of black, replacing the previously purple parts with more black and rendering the translucent plastic cannon a shade of red. Megatronus features extensive paint details, including purple lining inside the grooves on his head, shoulders and knees, silver paint on his legs and engines and red eyes. He was only available in a two-pack with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#VSMegatronus|Orion Pax]].

: This toy is meant to depict Megatron as he was before the war broke out, hence the name, which originated as a pre-war name for [[Megatron (WFC)|Aligned continuity Megatron]].

{{-}}{{anchor|MegatronStarscream2pack}}
[[File:TTGenerationsTG28MegatronChopShop.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|BURRITOOOS!!!!]]
*'''Megatron & Starscream''' (Multi-pack, [[December 28|12-28]]-2013)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''TG28'''

: The Japanese release of Legends Class Megatron is cast in his traditional gray, black and red color scheme and features extensive metallic silver paint. He and Chop Shop were only available in a two-pack with [[Starscream (G1)/toys#MegatronStarscream2pack|Starscream]] and [[Waspinator (BW)#MegatronStarscream2pack|Waspinator]].
{{-}}

{{anchor|Leader}}
[[File:LeaderMegatron2015.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.95|"What? No, of course I don't have an Autobot insignia! [[...And the Damage Done: Dark Cybertron Finale|Why would you think that?"]]]]
*'''Megatron''' (Leader, 2015)
**''Accessories'': Two guns (combine to form rifle), missile
:Part of the first wave of 2015 ''Generations'' Leader Class toys, Megatron transforms from a robot heavily inspired by his Generation 1 animation model into a tank featuring working treads. He includes a sticker sheet featuring two each of Decepticon and Autobot [[insignia]] (the latter in reference to IDW's ''[[The Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|More than Meets the Eye]]''), plus stickers intended to replicate those on the original Megatron toy's chest and fusion cannon. Megatron also comes packaged with a collector's card featuring art from the initial release of the ''[[Transformers Legends (mobile game)|Transformers Legends]]'' mobile game. His box-back bio bears a superficial similarity to our wiki's article on [[Megatron (WFC)|another Megatron]].
:He features a spark chamber hatch which is sculpted in likeness to the one seen in [[Master Blaster]]. In a feature that goes undocumented in Megatron's instructions, his two guns can store underneath the rear of his alternate mode.

:Select aspects of this design, such as the leg-mounted treads, the general transformation sequence and the tank alt-mode, were used to represent G1 Megatron in [[Transformers: Devastation]].

:He was retooled into [[Megatron (Armada)/toys#Generations|''Armada'' Megatron]].

{{-}}
{{anchor|SingaporeTRULeader}}
*'''Megatron''' (Lucky Draw Leader, 2016)
**''Accessories'': Two guns (combine to form rifle), missile

:Released as a contest prize for Toys R' Us Singapore, this ''Combiner Wars'' Leader Class Megatron is a redeco of the Leader Class toy above, featuring chrome silver paint on his silver parts. The figure can be obtained by spending $600 worth of Transformers products only with their Star Card. The contest ran in March 1st till 31st.

{{-}}
===Cyber Series===
[[File:Generations-Cyber-Battalion-Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|He may have rocket launchers in his feet, but that doesn't mean he has mistletoe.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Cyber Battalion, 2015)

:Part of the first and only assortment of Generations Cyber Series figures, Megatron is a voyager-sized figure and transforms into a futuristic tank with a transformation scheme that borrows much of its engineering from the Universe G2 Legend Class Megatron from 2008 though does have some unique steps. His large fusion cannon can be held in his fist or mounted on his arm as any classic representation of Megatron would.

:The Cyber Series as a whole is pretty hard to come by. This figure along with the others were available in limited quantities from online retailer BigBadToyStore.com, though other than that they haven't hit mass retail anywhere besides Asia and Latin America.

{{-}}

==Bot Shots==
[[Image:Bot Shots S1 BP004 Megatron.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''Nemesis Prime / Megatron / Acid Storm''' (Multi-pack, 2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''BP004'''
***''Fist strength'': '''170'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''820'''
***''Sword strength'': '''625'''

:Part of the first wave of ''[[Bot Shots (toyline)|Bot Shots]]'' Series 1 three-packs, Megatron is a teeny tank that borrows some elements from both the ''[[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)|War for Cybertron]]'' and ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Megatron designs. He has [[Autotransformation|a spring-loaded automatic transformation]] to robot mode triggered when his front is pressed, and has a "spinner" in his chest that shows his three attack types and power levels.

:He comes with [[Nemesis Prime (G1)|Nemesis Prime]] and [[Acid Storm|Super Bot Acid Storm]]. He shares parts with [[Brawl (Movie)#Bot Shots|Decepticon Brawl]] and [[Shockwave (Movie)#Bot Shots|Shockwave]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BS3pkMegatron/megatron.htm More information on 3-pack Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotLauncher}}
[[Image:BStoy-MegatronLauncher.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''Megatron Launcher''' (Launcher, 2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''BL002'''
***''Fist strength'': '''530'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''900'''
***''Sword strength'': '''210'''

:Part of the first wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 1 Launchers, this is a [[redeco]] of the ''Bot Shots'' tank Megatron mold in bronze. He comes with a large "trailer" tank body extension that transforms into a battle station with flip-out cannons and a launching mechanism. The large, main cannon on the launcher has detailing reminiscent of the original [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s [[fusion cannon]], such as the "dials" on the sides.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BSLMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Launcher Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotSuperBot}}
[[Image:Bot_Shots_Super_Bot_Megatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|]]
*'''Megatron''' (2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''Super Bot 003'''
***''Fist strength'': '''285'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''465'''
***''Sword strength'': '''870'''

:Part of the third wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 1 single-packs, "Super Bot" Megatron transforms into a semi-truck with trailer, taking inspiration from the ''[[Kre-O]]'' and ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Dark of the Moon]]'' Megatrons. As a Super Bot, he has more lopsided stats (sorta), and was [[Shortpacking|shortpacked]] one per case.

:This mold was redecoed into [[Motormaster (G1)|Motorbreath]]. He shares parts with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Bot Shots|Optimus Prime]] and Nemesis Prime.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BSSBMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Super Bot Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotBattleForMatrix}}
[[Image:BStoy-BattlefortheMatrix-LauncherMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|]]
*'''Battle for the Matrix''' (Multi-pack, 2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''UB003'''
***''Fist strength'': '''875'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''330'''
***''Sword strength'': '''415'''

: This redeco of the tank version of Megatron is cast in a warmer, non-metallic shade of black, with bronze details, a brighter silver face, and brighter red eyes. He comes with a redeco of his launcher, also in black, bronze, and silver.

: The set also comes with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#BotShotBattleForMatrix|Optimus Prime with his launcher]], [[Brawl (Movie)#BotShotBattleForMatrix|Decepticon Brawl]], [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#BotShotBattleForMatrix|Bumblebee]], and a [[Matrix of Leadership/toys#Bot Shots|Matrix]] prize.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BSBFTMMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Battle for the Matrix Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotTruck}}
[[Image:BStoy-CybertruckMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Megatron doesn't ''need'' your puny windshields.]]
*'''Megatron''' (2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''B018'''
***''Fist strength'': '''800'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''520'''
***''Sword strength'': '''300'''

:Part of the fifth wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 1 single-packs, this Megatron is a redeco of Super Bot Megatron in opaque plastics and with a painted "tanker" trailer section. The online Bot Shots checklist refers to this toy as "Megatron Cybertruck", a name not found on the packaging.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BSB018Megatron/megatron.htm More information on "Cybertruck" Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|DragonTrack}}
[[File:BotShots Dragon Megatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Infused with the power of DORK Energon.]]
*'''Dragon Track''' (Playset, 2013)
**''Series'': '''2'''
**''Number'': '''UB002'''
***''Fist strength'': '''480'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''735'''
***''Sword strength'': '''405'''
**''Accessories'': Launcher

:Available only with the Dragon Track set, this version of Megatron is a new Flip Shot mold, changing into a purple jet with animalistic styling on its nose, and featuring a robot mode that's inspired more by ''[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)|Prime]]'' Megatron. An impact to the front of the jet will cause Megatron to flip back into robot mode. He comes with a launcher that can be connected to the track, as well as [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#DragonTrack|Flip Shot Optimus Prime and his launcher]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/BSDTMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Dragon Track Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|FireAssaultTeam}}
[[File:BotShots FireAssault Megatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|"I—I stayed out in the sun too long, okay!?"]]
*'''Decepticon Fire Assault Team''' (Multi-pack, 2013)
**''Series'': '''2'''
**''Number'': '''T016'''
***''Fist strength'': '''290'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''86?'''
***''Sword strength'': '''462'''

:A redeco of the original Megatron mold in red and orange, this version of Megatron was available in a five-pack with similar redecos of [[Shockwave (Movie)#FireAssaultTeam|Shockwave]], [[Starscream (G1)/toys#FireAssaultTeam|Starscream]], [[Barricade (Movie)/toys#FireAssaultTeam|Barricade]], and [[Lockdown (ROTF)#FireAssaultTeam|Lockdown]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/BSDFAMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Fire Assault Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|SpinShot}}
[[File:BStoy-SpinShotMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|At least, we think it's a car.]]
*'''Megatron''' (2013)
**''Series'': '''2'''
**''Number'': '''B008'''
***''Fist strength'': '''725'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''220'''
***''Sword strength'': '''675'''

:Part of the third wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 2 single-packs, this new-mold Megatron transforms into a vaguely-animalistic black-and-silver car with wings, and with a robot mode that's also inspired by ''Prime'' Megatron. As a Spin Shot, one manually winds up his upper body beforehand when transforming him into vehicle mode, where striking the front of the vehicle will cause him to burst open and spin while auto-transforming.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/BSSSMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Spin Shot Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{--}}

==BeCool==
[[File:BeCool TankLorry.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''Tank Lorry (Megatron)''' (2013)
**''ID number'': '''B18'''

:''[[Bot Shots (toyline)#BeCool|BeCool]]'' "Tank Lorry" is a redeco of the ''Bot Shots'' truck Megatron mold in orange with metallic silver paint on his head, chest, windshield and tanker section. Instead of game stats, the stickers in his chest spinner feature drawings of his vehicle mode, a gas pump and the [[wikipedia:kanji|kanji]] for "danger" (危).

{{-}}{{anchor|HyperTank}}

*'''Hyper Tank and Hyper Tank Base (Megatron)''' (2013)
**''ID number'': '''BS04'''

:"Hyper Tank" is a redeco of the tank Megatron mold in bright green that comes with the Hyper Tank Base, a dark green and bronze redeco of the Megatron Launcher. His chest stickers now display pictures of the launcher in base mode, Megatron pulling it in trailer mode, and a compass, and he also comes with an additional sticker sheet for decorating the trailer.

==EZ Collection Gum==
[[File:EZ-colle-gum-G2-Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|I have been mistransformed? STARSCREAM!!]]
{{anchor|EZCollectionGum}}
*'''Megatron''' (EZ Collection Gum, 2012)
**''Release Date: [[July 30|7-30-]][[2012]]
**''ID Number'': '''4'''

:Part of the new EZ Collection Gum made by TakaraTomy A.R.T.S., This Megatron is a metallic redeco of the Universe Legends Class Megatron toy. While the purple plastic is painted with metallic purple, the paint applications are identical to the [[Megatron_(G1)/toys#Chronicle|Chronicle toy]]. As per the toyline's name, he comes with a yellow candy-shelled piece of lemony-flavored gum.

:His alt mode stock photo is mistransformed: the arms are not folded up to his tank turret.

{{-}}

==GT==
*'''GT-R Megatron''' ([[July 27|7-27]]-[[2013]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''GT-03'''
**''Accessories:'' "EX. Cannon", [[Noa]] race queen figure

: ''[[Transformers GT: Mission GT-R (franchise)|Transformers GT]]'' GT-R Megatron is a heavy retool of the ''[[Transformers: Alternity|Alternity]]'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Alternity|Convoy]] toy, transforming into a 1:32 scale replica of the S Road REITO MOLA GT-R race car used by [http://www.mola-international.co.jp/mola.cgi?field=%E3%83%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9D%E3%83%BC%E3%83%84%3C%3E%E3%83%81%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0%E4%BD%93%E5%88%B6 MOLA] in the [[wikipedia:Super GT|Super GT]] racing championship series. He features die-cast metal parts, an opening hood, trunk and doors, as well as an interior, complete with his feet and thighs being sculpted to form the back seats. His armaments include flip-out non-firing blasters on his arms as well as a handheld gun called the EX. Cannon, a weapon designed to resemble the fire extinguishers used at races. Like all ''GT'' toys, Megatron also comes with a [[GT Sister]], a poseable human figure themed after a [[wikipedia:race queen|race queen]], his partner being a lady named Noa.

: This mold was also used, with different heads and accessories, to make the other ''Transformers GT'' toys: [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#GT|GT-R Prime]], [[Star Saber (Victory)#GT|GT-R Saber]] and [[Fortress Maximus (G1)#GT|GT-R Maximus]].
{{-}}

==Nike==
[[File:NikeMegatronRises.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.95]]
*'''Calvin Johnson Megatron''' (2013)
**''Accessories'': 2 wings (combine to form fusion cannon), football
:Calvin Johnson Megatron was available with the purchase of {{w|Nike, Inc.|Nike}}'s CJ81 Megatron Trainer Max, inspired by American football player {{w|Calvin Johnson}}, who is nicknamed after the Decepticon leader. A redeco of his ''Generations Thrilling 30'' Deluxe Class toy, Megatron transforms from robot to stealth bomber, with his wings detaching to form a fusion cannon in robot mode. He features Johnson's signature printed on his chest, and also includes an American football accessory redecoed from the one included with Red Dog in the 2011 ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe]]'' "Slaughter's Marauders Battle Set".{{-}}

*'''Megatron Rises 3-Pack''' (2013)
**''Accessories'': 2 wings (combine to form fusion cannon), football
:The Calvin Johnson Megatron figure was also available in the "Megatron Rising 3-Pack", which includes three pairs of Megatron-themed shoes: the Nike CJ81 Megatron Trainer Max, the Megatron Nike Air Trainer SC II, and the Nike CJ81 Megatron Elite TD Cleat, the last of which is exclusive to the pack. The pack was limited to 81 pieces, in reference to Johnson's shirt number, and available only from Nike's 21 Mercer Street store in [[New York City]], select Nike Yardline stores, and Nike.com.{{-}}

==Construct-Bots==
[[File:Megatron Construct-Bots.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
* '''Megatron''' (Elite Class, 2013)
: Megatron transforms into a wheeled tank-like vehicle. He includes the same parts as the Ultimate Class figure however his armor is translucent purple plastic and he features numerous paint differences. He includes giant red swords, blasters, and a projectile-launching gun.
{{-}}

[[File:ConstructBots 2pack Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
* '''Optimus Prime vs Megatron''' (Ultimate Class, 2013)
: Megatron's Elite Class toy was packed alongside his eternal nemesis [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Construct-Bots|Optimus Prime]]. This version is identicle to his Elite-Class single release, but this version features a more Generation 1-based paint scheme. He retains the gimmickry of the Elite-Class version but also includes a myriad of extra parts include enough parts to switch his alternate form from a tank to a jet if one were so inclined.
{{-}}

==Hero Mashers==
[[File:HeroMashers_Megatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|I will destroy Optimus Prime! Then use his arm as a back scratcher!]]

* '''Megatron''' (Battle Upgrade, 2014)
**''Pieces: '''14'''
: Part of the first wave of battle upgrade Hero Mashers toys, Megatron is a non-transforming robot who is chock full of weaponry. He includes an Energon flail, a ''massive'' projectile launching fusion cannon, and a backpack with removable missile packs. His parts can be removed and swapped out with any other Hero Mashers toy.

:He also includes [[Skywarp (G1)/toys#Hero Mashers|Skywarp]]'s arm which is a repaint of [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Hero Mashers|Starscream]]'s.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2014/Decepticon/HMMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Cloud==
[[File:Cloud Megatron Toy.jpg|right|thumb|300px]]
*'''Megatron''' ([[May 29|5-29]]-2014)
**''ID number:'' '''TFC-D01'''
**''Accessories:'' "Fusion Blade" sword, "Deception Sword" dagger

: Megatron is a silver, red and black [[redeco]] of ''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' Voyager Class [[Megatron (G1)/toys#GenerationsVoyager|Megatron]], itself a [[retool]] of ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen:]] [[N.E.S.T. Global Alliance]]'' Voyager Class [[Bludgeon (ROTF)#Voyager|Bludgeon]] with a new head. He transforms from a Japanese [[Wikipedia:Type 90 Kyū-maru|Type 90]] tank into a samurai-esque robot mode and features a flexible plastic sword which is made out of a portion of the barrel of the tank's main gun, as well as a smaller dagger. The dagger can be stored in a sheath which is revealed from inside the tank turret, and both blades can be slotted in holes provided on the robot mode's left hip guard. Additionally, the dagger's handle can fit in the base of the sword's handle, forming a double-bladed weapon. He has [[Mech Alive]] [[gimmick]]s in his thighs and turret: sculpted cylinders in his thighs rotate whenever his lower legs are rotated, and pulling his turret open makes a sculpted white "disc" at the center rotate while a scabbard for the dagger hinges over to the side and props itself up for use.

: The vehicle mode is one of the very few Transformer tank toys with rubber components to its treads. Portions of the tread links can unlock, allowing them to hang from the robot mode, while the wheels of the treads are integrated separately into the robot mode form itself. The treads still do not function realistically; small plastic wheels on the underside of the treads help the tank mode roll, as is standard with nearly all Transformer tank toys.

: Megatron was available exclusively through [[e-HOBBY]].

: The original version of this mold was redecoed into ''Transformers: [[Hunt for the Decepticons]]'' [[Banzaitron]], and it was differently retooled to make ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' [[Overlord (Masterforce)#Timelines|Gigatron]].

==EZ Collection==
{{anchor|EG06}}
[[File:EZ-Collection-EG-06-Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Megatron''' (EZ Collection, 2014)
**''Release Date'':[[April 27|4-27-]][[2014]]
**''Japanese ID Number'': '''EG-06'''

:Another [[redeco]] of the [[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]] [[Legends Class]] Megatron, This individual carded release of EZ Collection Megatron features gray plastic with purple-painted hands. His stock photography retains the G2 Decepticon symbol, though the toy proper has original Decepticon symbols.

{{-}}

==Bearbrick==
[[File:Bearbrick Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|I'm an ''intensive'' care bear.]]
*'''Megatron''' ([[July 17|7-17]]-[[2014]])

: A special edition [[Bearbrick]] released in celebration of the ''Transformers'' 30th anniversary, Megatron transforms from a Bearbrick painted up like Megatron to a bear-eared robot. He has no accessories, but holes in his robot mode hands can accommodate other toys' weapons.

: This mold, with a different head sculpt, was also used for the simultaneously released Bearbrick [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Bearbrick|G1 Optimus Prime]] and later released [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Bearbrick|''Age of Extinction'' Optimus Prime]], and was further retooled into [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#Bearbrick|Bumblebee]] and [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Bearbrick|Starscream]].
{{-}}

==Transformers (2014)==
[[File:Transformers-2014-Legion-Class-Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Megatron''' (Legion Class, 2014)
:Another re-release of the ''Universe'' Legends Class Megatron sculpt, this time with a slightly lighter shade of green and darker shade of purple camouflage patterns from its previous iterations. Bizarrely, the [[package art]] is taken from the ''Generations'' Legends Class Megatron/Chop Shop two-pack's packaging and half-heartedly recolored to match the actual toy's deco. It still features ''Generations'' Megatron's black and yellow safety stripes.

:In the United States, Megatron has thus far been found at Big Lots and Family Dollar stores. In Australia, he is available at general retail again, just the previous [[wave]] of Legion Class figures; whereas in Europe, the wave that contains Megatron in other markets is available at general retail, but lacking Megatron for unknown reasons.

{{-}}

==Mega Drive Megatron==
[[File:MegaDriveMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|SEEEEEGAAAAA]]
*'''16-Bit Mega Drive Megatron''' (2014)
**''Accessories:'' Cannon, gamepad, game cartridge

: Released under the "TakaraTomy Arts" banner alongside a [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Optimus Prime featuring Original PlayStation|Sony PlayStation version of Optimus Prime]] and outside of any other toyline, Mega Drive Megatron transforms from robot to a scaled-down Japanese [[Sega]] [[wikipedia:Sega Genesis|Mega Drive]] video game console - which ironically is about the size of a real-life Mega Drive cartridge. He comes with a gamepad that features pushable buttons which splits in two and attaches to his back like a pair of wings, while the left side of the console detaches and transforms into an arm-mounted cannon attached to his back via the gamepad's cord. He also includes a cartridge depicting the Japanese release of ''[[wikipedia:Sonic the Hedgehog (1991 video game)|Sonic the Hedgehog]]'' that slots into the console/his chest.

: This figure includes what is most likely the smallest accessory to ever be included with a Transformers toy; a small cap that covers the hole left if one does not insert the gamepad into the console mode. The piece is sculpted to resemble an open slot for a gamepad and is a teensy bit ''smaller'' than a grain of rice.

{{-}}
[[File:SegaGenesisMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|]]
*'''Sega Genesis Megatron''' (2015)
**''Accessories:'' Cannon, gamepad, game cartridge

: Sega Genesis Megatron is a redeco and slight retool of Mega Drive Megatron in the form of its North American release, the Sega Genesis. In addition to the changes to the console, the red on Megatron's robot mode has been replaced with purple, and the art on the ''Sonic'' cartridge has been changed to match its American release. Even the packaging is changed to evoke Genesis packaging, right down to featuring (awkwardly translated) English text on the back. This version of Megatron is a TakaraTomy Arts online store exclusive.

: Curiously, the promotional pictures of Sega Genesis Megatron appear to show the retooled "16-Bit" panel molded to read "1'''5'''-Bit", but the final release has it correctly molded.

{{-}}
[[File:MegaDriveMegatronGold.jpg|thumb|right|300px|]]
*'''Mega Drive Megatron Gold Ver.''' (2015)
**''Accessories:'' Cannon, gamepad, game cartridge

: A [[Lucky Draw figure|Lucky Draw]] gold chrome redeco of Mega Drive Megatron was one of the prizes in a lottery open to those who purchased the ''{{w|Sega 3D Fukkoku Archives}}'' [[Nintendo DS|Nintendo 3DS]] game. For this release the cartridge art was changed to that of ''Bare Knuckle'', the Japanese release of ''[[wikipedia:Streets of Rage|Streets of Rage]]'' and one of the games included in ''Sega 3D Fukkoku Archives''. The lottery was open from December 18, 2014 to January 31, 2015, with only 5 golden Megatrons up for grabs.

{{-}}

==Q-Transformers==
[[File:QTransformers Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Megatron''' ([[April 25|4-25]]-2015)
**''ID number:'' '''QT-20'''

:''[[Q-Transformers]]'' Megatron is a small [[super deformed]] toy that transforms from Lamborghini Veneno to robot. He comes with a code for unlocking Megatron as a playable character in the ''[[Q-Transformers: Mystery of Convoy Returns (mobile game)|Q-Transformers: Mystery of Convoy Returns]]'' game.

{{-}}
[[File:QTransformers BlackMegatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Black Megatron''' ([[November 14|11-14]]-2015)
**''ID number:'' '''QT-32'''

:Released appropriately alongside [[Nemesis Prime (G1)#Q-Transformers|Black Convoy]], Black Megatron is a redeco of the previous toy in darker colors with red highlights in new places, blue windows and a Lamborghini logo in place of his Decepticon insignia.

{{-}}
*'''Decepticons 3-Figure Set''' (2016)
**''ID number:'' '''QTFS-02'''

:During the second ''Q-Transformers'' series, the Megatron toy was available in a three-pack alongside [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#Q-Transformers|Soundwave]] and [[Shockwave (G1)/toys#Q-Transformers|Shockwave]]. He is identical to the original ''Q-Transformers'' toy.

{{comingsoontoy}}

==Legends==
{{anchor|LG13}}
[[File:Tf-legends-lg-13-megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Megatron''' ([[May 30|5-30]]-2015)
**''ID number'': '''LG13'''
**''Accessories'': 2 guns (combine to form rifle), fusion cannon
:''[[Transformers Legends (franchise)|Legends]]'' Megatron is a redeco of the Leader Class Megatron toy, replacing some red plastic joints with grey. He comes with a leaflet featuring a character profile, tech specs and [[Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 13|volume 13]] of the ''[[Transformers Legends (comic)|Transformers Legends Comic: Bonus Edition]]'' mini-comic.

{{-}}

==Platinum Edition==
*'''One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall''' (2-pack, 2016)

: Released as part of the ''Platinum Edition'' 2-pack with Optimus Prime, this Megatron figure is another redeco of the ''Classics'' toy. Megatron features deco differences for the sake of the [[for safety reasons|gun laws]]: His transparent plastic gun shells is entirely casted in clear red plastics, while several red paint applications were decked to his legs, and his arms were molded with red plastic, plus the bright orange parts on both the tip of the barrel and the scope, just like the ''Classics'' figure.

: The original mold was also redecoed as [[Megatron_(G1)/toys#Henkei.21_Henkei.21|''Henkei! Henkei!'' Megatron]] and [[Megatron_(G1)/toys#United|''United'' Megatron]].

{{comingsoontoy}}

==Notes==
[[File:MicroChangeGunRoboWalther.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb|[[Megaplex (MW)|Megaplex]] Black Version?]]
[[File:Skywarpatron.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb|Skywarp really DID need close supervision.]]
[[File:UnmadeVideoCameraMegatron.jpg|thumb|upright=0.85]]
* To date, an exact copy of the black ''[[Microman]]'' ''[[Micro Change]]'' Walther P-38 toy has not been reissued as a Transformer - the e-HOBBY version replaced the blue plastic with red and some of the black plastic parts with silver chrome.
* It seems that no one could get Megatron's [[package art]] right in Japan. His standard release used edited box art from the standard Microchange P-38 toy's black deco, recolored to Megatron's US toy color scheme with shiny "chrome" and red on his legs and arms instead of the Japanese toy's flat gray and blue. The VS-X art replaced the red with blue, but kept the "chrome". The art on the "Goodbye Megatron" set used edited US box art (which in turn was the Microchange P-38 UNCLE art with an added sigil) that replaced the red with blue, yet this toy used red plastic.
* In a possible fit of madness, a triple changer was proposed that would switch between [[Skywarp (G1)/toys|Skywarp]] (possibly mistaken for Starscream), Megatron, and Skywarp's jet mode.
* In a slightly more sane attempt, [[:File:Megalvatron.jpg|another triple changer]] was proposed which would switch between Megatron, a very awkward [[Galvatron (G1)/toys|Galvatron]], and a Walther P-38 handgun with a futuristic silencer and laser sight.
* A kitbashed/hand-painted mock-up of the large ''Generation 2'' tank Megatron mold as a video camcorder is known to exist. Whether it was ever meant to be taken into production and whether it was meant to be Megatron or a new character is unknown. It was originally offered for sale in [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/browse_thread/thread/4f98fe3d58bfe696/b1d0163d38587281?q=ramjet+whiz+bang+toys&pli=1 October of 2000] from Whiz Bang Collectibles, along with other items seemingly from a former Hasbro employee's collection.<ref>[http://www.toyarchive.com/Transformers/Prototypes/Generation2/MegatronVideoCameraMock1.html Megatron Video Camera at Toyarchive.com]</ref>

{{-}}

==Footnotes==
<references />

==External links==
* [http://tfu.info/1984/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm Megatron at TFU.info]
*[http://www.transformertoys.co.uk/content.php?/transformers-toys/toy-gallery/1783/Generation+2/Megatron+ATB.html Gallery of ATB Megatron with comparison to BB at Transformers At the Moon]
* [http://www.theunclegun.com/ Unclegun.com - The Walther P-38 as seen in The Man from U.N.C.L.E.]
*[http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=ngAuAAAAEBAJ Megatrons patent]

[[Category:Action Masters]]
[[Category:Alternity Decepticons]]
[[Category:Bot Shots Decepticons]]
[[Category:Classics Decepticons]]
[[Category:Cloud Decepticons]]
[[Category:Combiner Wars]]
[[Category:Construct-Bots Decepticons]]
[[Category:Convention exclusives]]
[[Category:Generation 1 Decepticons]]
[[Category:Generation 2 Decepticons]]
[[Category:Generations]]
[[Category:Generation 2 Go-Bots]]
[[Category:GT characters]]
[[Category:Henkei! Henkei! Decepticons]]
[[Category:Hero Mashers Decepticons]]
[[Category:Legends franchise]]
[[Category:Platinum Edition]]
[[Category:Machine Wars Decepticons]]
[[Category:Masterpiece]]
[[Category:Q-Transformers characters]]
[[Category:Robotmasters Decepticons]]
[[Category:SDCC exclusives]]
[[Category:Titanium Series]]
[[Category:Transformers (2010) Decepticons]]
[[Category:Transmetals]]
[[Category:United Decepticons]]
[[Category:Universe (2008)]]

Megatron (G1)/toys

2016-03-13T16:15:34Z

Zackmak: /* Generation 1 */

{{suite}}
[[File:Instructionart-megatrong2combat.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4]]
Many toys have been made of '''[[Generation 1 continuity family|Generation 1]] [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'''. So many, they have to get their own page!

==Generation 1==
{{anchor|G1v1}}[[File:G1Megatron toy.jpg|upright=1.95|thumb|This photo needs an orange cap or someone might shoot the wiki.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Decepticon Leader, 1984/1985)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''16'''
**''Accessories (Hasbro release)'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon"
**''Accessories (Takara release)'': Sword, "high-density infrared laser cannon", 20 bullets

: Released in the first year of the ''Transformers'' toyline, the original Megatron toy began life as the ''[[Microman]]'' figure "Gun Robo - P38", which transforms into an accurate replica of a Walther P-38 pistol. This ''Microman'' figure was available in two forms: a standard version in two color schemes (one grey, one black), and the "Gun Robo - P38 U.N.C.L.E.", outfitted with three distinctive accessories—a scope, a silencer and a stock—that replicate the appearance of the unique, specialized Walther pistol seen in the popular 1960s spy television series ''[[Wikipedia:The Man from U.N.C.L.E.|The Man from U.N.C.L.E.]]'' <ref>"U.N.C.L.E. Special" Carbine at CIA Museum, [http://web.archive.org/web/20100324191047/https://www.cia.gov/about-cia/cia-museum/spy-fi-archives/item08.html archived version]</ref> It was the "U.N.C.L.E." version, with all of its special accessories, that was released by Hasbro as Megatron. When the figure is in [[robot mode]], the sight doubles as his signature arm-mounted [[fusion cannon]], but can also be combined with the other attachments to form either a "Particle Beam Cannon" weapons emplacement that Megatron can man, or a "Telescopic Laser Cannon" that connects to the figure as an over-shoulder weapons array. The pieces can also form a turret that a ''Microman'' figure can sit on and operate (that's what the tiny handles on Megatron's fusion cannon are for), but this feature was naturally left out of the ''Transformers'' version's instructions. Megatron also came with a chromed silver "high-density infrared laser cannon" that plugs into his either of his hands.

: The original ''Microman'' release of the toy that would be Megatron featured a spring-loaded firing mechanism that allowed the toy to shoot ([[for safety reasons|dangerously small]]) plastic bullets one at a time from its barrel. A similar launching mechanism was also built into the stock piece, which could launch the bullets when the accessories were configured into their weapons emplacement mode, or attach to Megatron's hip when in robot mode and launch the bullets through his barrel. As with all missile-firing gimmicks, this feature was removed from the Hasbro release of the toy, though the ports into which the bullets were inserted are still present.

: Megatron has had several variations, reissues and [[redeco]]s released down through the years; this article strives to list each distinct edition of the toy under its own respective series. The earliest variation of the toy came in 1985, when (like all toys originally available in 1984) a factory-applied [[rubsign]] was added to Megatron's right arm while another version had the rub sign on his left hip guard. Then, the following year, when he was no longer a part of the toy assortment sold at retail, Megatron was made available as a mail-away item in the "[[Digital Doom on the Highway to Destruction (G1)|Digital Doom on the Highway to Destruction]]" flier packed in with boxed ''Transformers'' toys. He cost $21.50 and five [[Robot Point]]s. To coincide with the 1986 animated movie release, he was also offered in 'The Autobots Have A Special Mission For...' mail-away pamphlet and came with a special "Movie Edition Certificate" and a round sticker that read " Movie . Edition . Transformer" with the Decepticon symbol in the middle. (This item is considered rare.)

: Perhaps the most significant variant of Megatron released in these early years was the version of the figure released by [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] in Japan (pictured below). Instead of using the ''Microman'' "U.N.C.L.E." figure as Hasbro had, Takara released the ''standard'' version of the Gun Robo P-38 ''Microman'' figure, in its grey color scheme, which featured flat grey plastic on the chest and arms (where Hasbro's toy was chromed), and blue plastic on the inner arms and legs (where Hasbro's was red). Most notably, like that standard ''Microman'' figure, Takara's Megatron did not come with the stock, silencer and scope accessories (lacking even the attachment point for his cannon on his right arm), but instead came with a silver-chromed sword and retained his original bullet-firing mechanism. Takara's [[package art]] for the figure was an entirely different illustration from the Hasbro version, showing this toy's accessories, but it still erroneously showed the figure with red plastic on its limbs. This coloration was later [[Repurposing|repurposed]] by [[e-HOBBY]] for a new character named [[Megaplex (MW)|Megaplex]].

: Megatron is probably the most troubled Transformer toy in all of Transformer history, due to being originally Japanese which had different toy laws, he is frequently [[For safety reasons|banned]] due to being a realistic gun while lacking an orange cap to indicate it's not a real gun. Some countries banned it or condemmed it illegal due to criminals/or kids misusing it as a real gun and terrorizing others, or law enforcement mistaking it as a real firearm and shooting innocent people dead (as has happened multiple times in the past). For you American fans, it may actually be easier to own a ''real'' Walther P-38 handgun than this original Megatron toy.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1984/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|VSX}}
[[File:G1toy japanese megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Convoy VS Megatron''' (Multi-pack, 1985)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''VSX'''
**''Accessories'': Sword, "high-density infrared laser cannon", 20 bullets

: In Japan, Megatron was also made available in a special two-pack with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Optimus Prime]]. Both toys were identical to their individual releases. In Megatron's case, that means unchromed gray plastic, blue instead of red, and a functional firing mechanism and sword, instead of the scope, silencer and stock. This box also used an altered version of the individual release's box-art, turning his head sideways to face Prime, as opposed to the original's camera-facing head position.

{{-}}{{anchor|GoodBye}}
[[File:G1toy gb megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|''The world can be one together, Cosmos without hatred. Stars like diamonds in your eyes...'']]
*'''Good Bye Megatron''' (Multi-pack, 1986)
**''Accessories'': Sword, "high-density infrared laser cannon", 20 bullets, targeting sight/fusion cannon

: Megatron was released again as part of a special "Good Bye" set to commemorate his passing ([[Galvatron (G1)|of sorts]]) in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', packaged with [[Starscream (G1)/toys|Starscream]] (who also was now no more). Although it still lacked the chrome seen on the Hasbro version of the toy, this edition of the figure replaced the blue plastic seen on previous Takara releases with Hasbro's show-accurate red, and included the fusion cannon accessory for the first time with a Takara release, complete with the mounting point now added to Megatron's right arm. Though still lacking the silencer and stock, the toy retained its Japanese-exclusive sword accessory and its bullet-firing mechanism, with one modification: The bullets, formerly blue, were now red.

: Despite the change to the toy's colors, the box art on this set, the same art used for the [[Hasbro]] releases, was recolored to match the blue of the ''previous'' releases. Whoops.

{{-}}
*'''Galvatron''' (Decepticon [[City Commander]], 1986)

{{main|Galvatron (G1)/toys}}

{{-}}{{anchor|ActionMaster}}
*'''Neutro-Fusion Tank with Megatron''' (Action Master, 1990)
**''Accessories'': Neutro-Fusion Tank, 4 missiles, "twin laser cannon"
[[File:Neutro-fusiontanktoy1.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Uh-oh! Visual interest!]]
: Megatron returned as an ''[[Action Master]]'' in 1990, and as with most ''Action Master'' figures, he could not transform. His sculpt was based heavily upon the character's animation model design. Megatron is compatible with all other Action Master accessories and vehicles.

: He came packaged with the [[Neutro-Fusion Tank]], a large tank vehicle whose hull could transform into a base/gun emplacement, with the turret forming a flight pod. Four "corrosive smoke shell" accessories mounted on both sides of the tank. There are seats for two Action Master figures on the front on either side of the barrel, another seat inside the turret, and four pegs on the back of the tank for standing additional Action Master figures.

:The tank's turret can detach and become a "jet throne," which features flip-out wings, and the body of the tank transforms into a missile-launcher battle station. The battle station has two seats on either side behind the missile launchers (non-firing) and a stowing bay in the center for an additional figure.

:In a fairly notable omission, ''Action Master'' Megatron did not come with the character's iconic fusion cannon accessory. In 1992, however, a Japanese fan sculpted his own cannon accessory, which could plug into the figure's arm using the shoulder screw-hole (seen in the image at right). In a surprising move, Takara gave this cannon their approval and allowed it to be officially sold with their copyright stamp at a Japanese convention {{fact|which one?}} for only one day, at the price of 2000 yen.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1990/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Action Master Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|2001reissue}}
[[File:G1toy 2000 megatron reissue.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron''' (reissue, 2001)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''16-S'''
**''Accessories'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets

:This reissue of the original Megatron figure combines the best aspects of the Hasbro and Takara versions into the most "complete" version of Megatron available at that point. The set features the chromed chest and arms and red plastic of the Hasbro release, and includes the silencer, stock and sight/cannon, while also coming with Takara's sword and functional bullet-firing mechanism.

:This reissue was redecoed to make the simultaneously available exclusive "Megatron Black Version" (see below).

{{-}}{{anchor|BlackG1}}
[[File:G1toy black megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|Blacktron, nemesis of the Space Police.]]
*'''Megatron Black Version''' (2001/2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''16-S'''
**''Accessories'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets

: Where the original Takara Megatron toy made use of one of the two color schemes of the original ''Microman'' Gun Robo P38 toy, this redeco of the 2000 reissue Megatron is an homage to the ''second'', black color scheme for the ''Microman'' toy. Available exclusively through e-Hobby and pre-orders at [[BotCon Japan 2000]], "Megatron Black Version" features dark gunmetal chrome, black plastic instead of grey, and distinctive brown gun handle-grips, fists and "inner helmet". The chrome replaces the flat black plastic of the original ''Microman'' toy, which also had blue plastic on its legs and arms that is here supplanted by Megatron's now-traditional red. The toy was limited to 1000 pieces.

: e-Hobby later reissued Megatron Black Version in February 2009, now in [[Collector's Edition]] packaging. This release includes a [[Destron Leader Megatron Black Ver.|mini-comic]] explaining the story behind the redeco.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2000/Destron/BlackMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Megatron Black Version at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Generation 2==
[[File:G2Megatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|G2 Megatron is always ready for tank combat in one of Earth's many green and purple jungles.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Decepticon, 1992)
**''Accessories'': Rifle, 6 missiles, sight

: Owing to Hasbro's [[for safety reasons|inability]] to re-release the original Megatron because that toy was a pistol, ''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]]'' instead saw the release of an entirely new Megatron toy in 1992, now as a large green M1A1 Abrams main battle tank. His main gimmick is his gravity-fed cannon, which holds four of his missiles at once (the remaining two can store in clips inside his legs) and can rapidly launch them one after the other. Pulling back on the cannon's tab drops a missile into the firing tube and triggers a "lock and load" sound effect, and pressing the launch button is accompanied by a firing sound effect. In tank mode, pressing a panel on his forward section trigger's the toy's infamous battle cry of '''"Megatron Attack!"''', while pressing down on the tank body while it is on a flat surface activates engine noises.

: In robot mode, Megatron is, by the standards of the time, a very large robot, towering over all ''Generation 2'' incarnations of Optimus Prime. His legs are immobile, but he has upper shoulder rotation and elbow joints; when raised, his left arm triggers an electronic laser sound effect. His cannon and all its sound effects still work in this mode, as does his "Megatron Attack!" sound effect, now triggered by pressing down on the figure's head.

: This sculpt was slightly [[redeco]]ed (with new stickers) as ''[[Beast Wars II (toyline)|Beast Wars II]]'' [[Megastorm]].

: Furthermore, a [[retool]]ed version of the toy's lock-and-load shoulder cannon (or a new sculpt heavily based on it) was used as the main cannon on the [http://www.yojoe.com/sgtsavage/panther.shtml I.R.O.N Panther Tank] in the very short-lived 1995 ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe]]'' line ''Sgt. Savage and his Screaming Eagles''.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1993/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Generation 2 Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Hero}}
[[File:G2 CombatHero Megatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|By this point, the purple had almost completely taken over his body.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Hero, 1995)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''TRF-2'''
**''Accessories'': Rifle, 2 air-launch missiles

:Megatron was released again the following year as [[Hero (G2)|Hero]] Megatron: a smaller, but similarly styled tank based off the M1 Abrams. This Megatron was purple and came with a bellows that fired an air-propelled missile. Both missiles could be kept on Megatron thanks to clips on his turret, which become his robot mode arms... conveniently kinda simulating the "classic" Megatron arm cannon to boot.

: Hero Megatron was designed with articulation in mind, so he was loaded with multiple swivel and universal joints, giving him far greater movement compared to his original ''Generation 2'' toy. However, it's really just friction that keeps his joints tight and his parts together in [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]] (no pegs or clips) so after a bit of time and play, he turns pretty floppy.

: This toy was released in Europe, albeit with a "MEGATRON RULES"-free blank chest sticker, as [[Archforce]]. It was also redecoed into [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'']] [[Bludgeon (RID 2001)|Bludgeon]] (which has since been [[Repurposing|repurposed]] to become "[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Bludgeon (SG)|Bludgeon]]), and retooled to become [[#reverseconvoy|Reverse Convoy]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1994/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Hero Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|Go-Bot}}
[[File:Megatron-G2GoBot.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|He'd be a better shot if he could only see over his hood-chest.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Go-Bot, 1995)
**''Accessories'': Rifle

: Part of the second assortment of [[Go-Bot (G2)|Go-Bots]], this version of Megatron is a mild [[redeco]] of the Autobot [[Blowout]], transforming into a 1:64-scale Porsche 959 sports car with through-axle construction. This not only makes him roll exceptionally fast in car mode, but also makes him largely compatible with playsets from the "Hot Wheels" and "Matchbox" toy-car lines. Megatron and Blowout share the same blue and black inner robot colors, but Megatron uses opaque silver plastic with a shiny metallic silver paint overcoat, as opposed to Blowout's smoky-clear plastic. (All of the toys from the first wave that had transparent plastics were released in this wave with opaques instead; Blowout and [[Firecracker]] became new versions of Megatron and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#GobotOptimusPrime|Optimus Prime]] respectively, while [[Gearhead]] and [[Motormouth]] stayed themselves.)

: In Japan, his hood was tampographed with a stylized "T" with the ''Transformers'' logo set within the top bar, the same deco that appears on Go-Bots [[Soundwave (G1)/toys|Soundwave]] and the Japanese release of Go-Bots Optimus Prime.

:This mold was also used to make Go-Bots [[Frenzy (G1)##Generation 2|Frenzy]] and [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'']] [[Hot Shot (RID)|Hot Shot]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1995/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Go-Bot Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|CombatHero}}
[[File:CombatHeroMegatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|I AM POWERED BY UNOBTAINIUM!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Combat Hero, unreleased)
**''Accessories'': rifle, 2 air-launch missiles

: This kinda-sorta "arctic"-camo version of the [[#Hero|Hero Megatron]] toy was solicited to numerous retailers, and is one of a great many ''Generation 2'' toys to never see the light of day. Precious few samples of this toy exist.

: At [[BotCon 1996]], a donated Combat Hero Megatron was one of the items in the charity auction, along with several other canceled ''Generation 2'' toys.

::*''[http://www.toyarchive.com/Transformers/Prototypes/Generation2/HeroMegatronProtoMOSC.html "Combat Hero" Megatron in packaging at Super Toy Archive]''
::*''[http://www.transformertoys.co.uk/resources/review/generation+2/camoflague+megatron/3725 Image gallery of a loose "Combat Hero" Megatron at Transformers @ The Moon]''
{{canceledtoy}}
{{-}}{{anchor|ATB}}
[[File:G2toy ATB megs and screamer.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Cancelled?! This is all YOUR fault, Starscream!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Decepticon, limited test market release)
**''Accessories'': 12 missiles, 2 missiles launchers

: A planned-but-more-or-less-canceled redeco of ''Generation 2'' [[Dreadwing (G2)|Dreadwing]], Megatron would have transformed into a "flying wing" Advanced Tactical Bomber (when combined with his smaller "partner" [[Starscream (G1)/toys#ATB|Starscream]]) with an under-slung six-missile gatling cannon. Each wing can store three more missiles, which can "carpet-bomb" targets below by pressing the pressure-launch buttons above each. He can also transform into a treaded "tank" mode, activated by removing Starscream from the jet mode and activating a spring-loaded [[Autotransformation|autotransform]] mechanism in his wings.

: This toy's deco was used to make ''[[Beast Wars II (toyline)|Beast Wars II]]''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s [[BB]] and [[Starscream (BWII)|Starscream]] out of the same mold-set. This mold was also used to make ''Robots in Disguise'' [[Dreadwind (RID)|Dreadwind]] and ''[[Robotmasters (franchise)|Robotmasters]]'' [[Gigant Bomb]].

: According to the Toy Fair 1995 Transformers presentation, the toy's missiles were intended to glow in the dark. This feature was not carried over to the Beast Wars II BB/Starscream set.

: This figure was only released to test markets in Ohio in very limited quantities. It was never available as a wide release.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/issue02/atbmegs.htm ATB Megatron in packaging at TFU.info]''
::*''[http://www.transformertoys.co.uk/resources/review/generation+2/+megatron+atb/3590 Image gallery of a loose ATB Megatron at Transformers @ The Moon]''
{{-}}

==Beast Wars==

[[File:BWtoy-MegatronBasic.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Go Gators!]]
* '''Optimus Primal VS Megatron''' (Basic 2-pack, 1996)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''VS-6'''
**''Accessories:'' Gun/tail

:Early on the life of the [[Beast Wars: Transformers (toyline)|''Beast Wars'' toyline]], before the debut of the [[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|''Beast Wars'' cartoon]] (which definitively established ''Beast Wars'' [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]] as a separate, distinct character), packaging [[bio]]s and the [[Optimus Primal vs Megatron!|mini-comic]] sold with this first ''Beast Wars'' Megatron figure indicated that he was the same Megatron from Generation 1 and 2. As such, all the Megatron toys released in this early era of the ''Beast Wars'' line are listed here for completeness, representing a [[micro-continuity]] in which Generation 1 Megatron took on these forms.

:The initial version of ''Beast Wars'' Megatron transforms into a green alligator. The toy shares a mold with [[Iguanus (BW)|Iguanus]], sporting different beast and robot mode heads and lacking the lizard's frill (though the screw hole for the frill bracket remains); as the two toys were released at the same time, it is unknown if one is a [[retool]] of the other, or if the mold was designed for both simultaneously. Megatron transforms via a spring-loaded one-step process, and his removable [[beast mode]] tail hides a non-firing blaster cannon that becomes a hand-held weapon for his robot mode.

:This mold was redecoed into the purple Megaligator ([[#CDgator|see below]]), and a different redeco was proposed for the unproduced [[Albitron]]. The Iguanus version of the mold was redecoed into [[Crazybolt (BWN)|Crazybolt]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1996/Predacon/MegatronGator/megatron.htm More information on ''Beast Wars'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BWultra}}
[[File:Bwmegatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Don't call him Barney.]]
* '''Megatron''' (Ultra, 1996)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-1'''
**''Accessories:'' Two missiles, water squirter

: This version of Megatron transforms into a purple organic ''Tyrannosaurus rex'', and is loaded with multiple play features. His dinosaur head, which becomes his right hand in robot mode, features a [[water-squirting gimmick]] activated by opening the dinosaur's mouth, while his tail folds into a working plunger-operate pincer that forms his left arm. The outer shells of his dinosaur thighs conceal spring-loaded missile launchers that fire anchor-shaped projectiles, and like all larger ''Beast Wars'' figures of the era, he features a [[mutant head]], formed from two bat-like wing adornments that fold around his robot head.

: This mold was also used to make the ''[[Beast Machines: Transformers (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'' [[Dinobot (BM)|Dinobot]] [[T-Wrecks]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1996/Predacon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on ''T. rex'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|GatorJ}}
[[File:BWtoy takara megaligator.jpg|thumb]]
* '''Megaligator''' (Basic, 1997)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''D-6'''
**''Accessories:'' Gun/tail

: In Japan, the alligator Megatron toy was also sold individually, as well as in a two-pack with Optimus. Both Japanese releases of the figure are identical to the Hasbro version.

{{-}}{{anchor|CDgator}}
[[File:CDMegaligator.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Because a solid grey alligator would just be silly.]]
*'''Amazon Showdown''' (Basic 2-pack, 1997)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''VS-S1'''
**''Accessories:'' Gun/tail

:This figure is a purple [[redeco]] of Megatron's alligator form, and was sold with a red and blue redeco of the bat version of Optimus Primal. This may or may not be intended to be either Generation 1 Megatron or ''Beast Wars'' Megatron—we don't really know. The set also came with a CD-ROM featuring tech specs and video clips of the ''Beast Wars'' cartoon cast and images to color.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1997/Destron/MegagatorJapan/megatron.htm More information on Amazon Showdown Megaligator at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

==Machine Wars==
[[File:MWMegatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|And that's why Thundercracker turned green.]]
* '''Megatron''' (Basic, 1997)
**''Accessories'': 2-part rifle

: Sharing a mold with his concurrently-released ally [[Megaplex (MW)|Megaplex]] (which had been a canceled mold developed for ''Generation 2''), ''[[Machine Wars: Transformers|Machine Wars]]'' Megatron transforms from a [[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes|Lockheed-Martin F-22 Raptor fighter jet]] to robot mode with a spring-loaded one-step transformation. The two halves of his rifle store in the back of his robot mode legs.

: Oddly, the ''Machine Wars'' stock photos (and even the boxart) portray Megatron as the gray F-22 jet and Megaplex as the blue one, the ''opposite'' of the actual toys. This means that either the package designers made the mistake, or the toys were packaged on the wrong cards. The latter is more likely, since gray is more associated with Megatron than blue. Like most other toys in the line, the boxart was recycled from an earlier figure, in this case from the [[Predator (subgroup)|Predator]] [[Falcon (G1)|Falcon]].

: This mold was also used to make ''[[Beast Wars II (toyline)|Beast Wars II]]'' [[Thrust (BWII)|Thrust]], [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'']] [[Wind Sheer (RID)|Wind Sheer]], and ''[[Robotmasters (franchise)|Robotmasters]]'' [[Air Hunter]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/1997/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Machine Wars Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
==Choro-Q Robo==
[[File:Choroq megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Megatron TV Version''' (2001)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''Q/03'''

:''[[Choro-Q|Choro-Q Robo]]'' Megatron is a small, cutesified transforming figure of the Decepticon leader. He is the only ''Choro-Q Robo'' Transformers figure that does not come with a weapon accessory, but after all, he does turn ''into'' a gun. In a bizarre and hilarious touch, Megatron has wheels on his base and barrel, so that he can share the common feature of the ''Choro-Q Robo'' figures: a pull-back motor!

:Sadly, Megatron's gray plastic is ''extremely'' prone to [[Photodegradation|yellowing]] even when not exposed to sunlight and becomes brittle just as quickly, shattering to bits easily. Thankfully, the black version has no such problem.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2001/Destron/ChoroQMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Choro-Q'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

* '''Megatron Black Version''' (2001)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''Q/04'''

:This version of ''Choro-Q Robo'' Megatron is a redeco of the first, decked out in a metallic color scheme based on the "Black Version" of the reissue of the Generation 1 figure released earlier that year.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2001/Destron/ChoroQBlackMegs/megatron.htm More information on ''Choro-Q'' Black Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Transformers Collection==
{{anchor|TFCMegatron}}
[[File:G1toy tfc megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron''' (2003)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''6'''
**''Accessories'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets, [[energon mace]]

:The original Generation 1 Megatron figure was again reissued in 2003 as part of Takara's ''[[The Transformers Collection]]'' series. This release was identical to the previous 2000 reissue, in that it featured the colors of the Hasbro release of the toy, and all the accessories of both the Hasbro and Takara versions, but this time, it also included a new [[energon mace]] weapon which plugs over Megatron's hand, as used by the Decepticon leader in the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|original ''The Transformers'' cartoon]] episode "[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 2]]". Much like the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|"New Year Special"]] version of Optimus Prime released the previous year, Megatron also came with a sheet of Decepticon [[insignia]] stickers of different sizes, and a Decepticon mouse pad.

::*''[http://tfu.info/1984/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm More information on Transformers Collection Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|TFCStarscream}}
[[File:TFC09ScreamerHoldingMegs.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Sometimes I just... want to be held.]]
* '''Starscream''' (Transformers Collection, 2002)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''9'''
: A diminutive version of Megatron in his Walther P-38 mode was included as a new accessory with the ''Transformers Collection'' release of Starscream. Needless to say, he doesn't transform, but can be held by Starscream in both modes. Megatron's handle disconnects to reveal a peg, which can then be inserted into either of Starscream's fists, which were specifically resculpted for this purpose. Each fist also features a tab on its underside, into which Megatron's handle can be inserted, completing the effect. Megatron can also attach to Starscream's jet mode; the right-hand side of Megatron's handle features a square peg which is designed to fit snugly in gaps in Starscream's pectorals, as in the Generation 1 episode, "[[S.O.S. Dinobots]]". Unfortunately, this peg has, for no fathomable reason, been cast in the same sky blue color as Starscream's hands, unnecessarily making it ''as obtrusive as humanly possible''. An additional tabbed right fist for [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1|Optimus Prime]] (complementing his then-upcoming ''Transformers Collection'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Transformers Collection|Convoy]] release) was included as well.

: Megatron's post is compatible with [[5mm post]] fist holes, provided there is sufficient clearance for both the trigger and the back of the gun, and if you don't mind not using the handle.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2003/Destron/AnimeStarscream/starscream.htm More information on Transformers Collection Starscream at TFU.info]''
{{--}}

==Commemorative Series==
*'''Megatron''' (unreleased)
**''Accessories:'' Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword

: Hasbro attempted to include the original Generation 1 Megatron toy in their [[The Transformers: Generation One Commemorative Series|Commemorative Series]] of reissues, but his realistic-gun-ness posed [[for safety reasons|a challenge]]. In an attempt to convince Toys R Us (the retailer through whom the line was exclusively available) to carry the toy, Hasbro proposed an extensive redeco of the figure, replacing its silver chrome with blue and its grey plastic with bright orange, including the tip of his silencer, in accordance with standard safety measures taken with toy guns. Even this was not enough to convince the chain to release the figure and it was shelved, but the design was shown to fans at [[BotCon 2002]], where it was noted that a potential way to the market the unusually-colored toy would have been to brand it as "Lava Megatron", depicting the Decepticon leader after his dunk in lava at the end of the cartoon episode, "[[Heavy Metal War]]". Fans, however, had another nickname for it that became better known: "Safety Megatron". Notably, this version of the toy would apparently have come with Megatron's Japanese-exclusive sword accessory.

:The same images were later shown at [[BotCon 2005]]. Sadly, photography was not allowed at either panel the toy was shown at.

:*''[https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=177341559109628&set=a.129078730602578.24553.129076873936097&type=1&theater Images of "Safety Megatron" on The Spacebridge's facebook page]''

{{canceledtoy}}

==Smallest Transforming Transformers==
[[File:STFMegatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Not 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime's gun.]]
*'''Megatron''' (2004)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''GTF 07'''
**''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon/scope

: ''[[Smallest Transforming Transformers]]'' Megatron was released in the second wave of the diminutive Takara toyline, including only his fusion cannon. Easily the most complex of the ''Smallest Transforming'' figures, Megatron is a just-barely-simplified version of his original Generation 1 toy, possessing the same transformation scheme and retaining most of his articulation.

:Just as ''Smallest Transforming'' Optimus Prime's trailer was released as a separate figure in the line, so too were a set of silencer and stock attachments originally intended to be released for Megatron in the line's third wave. Unfortunately, this wave, and most of the other original figures it was set to contain, was cancelled, and so Megatron was left under-armed.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2004/Destron/SmallestMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Smallest Transforming Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

[[File:Wst vsx megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Convoy vs Megatron''' (multipack, 2004)
** ''Japanese ID Number:'' '''VSX'''
** ''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon/scope

:Available exclusively through [[Dengeki Hobby]] magazine, this ''Smallest Transforming Transformers'' two-pack contains both Optimus Prime and Megatron, in homage to the original 1984 "VSX" giftset containing the original versions of the two leaders. While Optimus is unaltered from his original release, Megatron takes the homage a little further, removing the swirled pattern from the original figure's chest and replacing the red plastic with blue to emulate the original Takara version of the full-size Generation 1 figure.
{{--}}

==Robotmasters==
{{anchor|reverseconvoy}}[[File:RMtoy reverse convoy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|My Convoy counterpart is nearby. Real nearby.]]
*'''Reverse Convoy''' (Deluxe, 2005)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RM-24'''
**''Accessories'': "Reverse Blaster", missile

: A [[retool]] of the ''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]]'' "Hero Megatron" toy, Rebirth Megatron transforms into a heavily modified blue and tan [[Popular Earth vehicle alternate modes|M1 Abrams tank]]. In addition to a new "[[Reverse Convoy]]" head that flips out of the same compartment as the head on the original version of the mold, the toy features a brand new "Mega Blaster" cannon assembly that houses most of the toy's new features. The Mega Blaster fires a spring-loaded blue missile, and the rear of the cannon can be removed and transformed into the hand-held "Reverse Blaster" weapon, featuring twin barrels and a rack of six (non-removable) missiles. Once the Reverse Blaster is removed, the toy's "Rebirth Megatron" head can be rotated out from the back of the cannon to take the place of Reverse Convoy's head between the figure's shoulders.

: The original version of this mold was use to make [[Archforce]] and [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'']] [[Bludgeon (RID 2001)|Bludgeon]] (which has been [[Repurposing|repurposed]] to also be "[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|Shattered Glass]]" [[Bludgeon (SG)|Bludgeon]]). The toy still retains the opening panels on its forearms, despite no longer featuring the large missiles they are designed to store.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Destron/ReverseConvoy/reverseconvoy.htm More information on Reverse Convoy at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

==20th Anniversary/Masterpiece==
[[File:GunmodeMegsMasterpieceConvoy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Bang bang! He shot me down! Bang bang! I hit the ground...]]
* '''Optimus Prime''' (2003/2004)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-1'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:''20th Anniversary'' Optimus Prime included an accessory of Megatron in his classic Walther P-38 altmode. Although non-transforming, it is quite detailed and includes the individually removable silencer / barrel extension, scope, and (hinged) stock. Although notionally [[scale]]d to be wielded by Prime, Megatron is really rather small, so a diagonal sliding joint is added to his handle, allowing it to be lengthened and narrowed enough so that Prime can actually hold it. Both the stock and the sliding butt-end of the handle are made of a soft, rubbery vinyl, compared to the hard plastic of the other pieces. The stock extension connecting clamp is prone to breakage, much to the chagrin of owners who keep theirs sealed and untouched.

:Needless to say, the later-released ''[[The Transformers: Masterpiece|Masterpiece]]'' [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|Starscream]] (and [[Skywarp (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|his]] [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|redecoes]]) can also hold this version of Megatron, and each include a small round clip that plugs in under their nosecones, allowing them to wield Megatron while in jet mode, as Starscream did in "[[S.O.S. Dinobots]]".

:As the ''Masterpiece'' Optimus Prime mold has been has re-released multiple times, so too has Megatron. He was made available again without changes as an accessory for Takara's MP-4, "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#mp4|Convoy Perfect Edition]]" and MP-1L, "[[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#lastshot|Convoy Last Production]]", and Hasbro's "[[#20thDVD|DVD Edition]]", but has also been redecoed several times: these distinct new versions of Megatron are listed below.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Autobot/20thPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|MPGold}}
[[File:MPtoy gold megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|This thing was bad ass in ''GoldenEye''.]]
*'''Convoy''' (Lucky Draw Figure, 2004)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-1'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:Offered as part of a Lucky Draw campaign in August 2004, this extremely rare version of ''Masterpiece'' Prime is almost entirely vacuum-metalized gold, lacking any other painted detail or stickers. The same is true of the Megatron accessory, who is all chromed golden save for the butt of his handle and his stock, which are metallic golden plastic.

::*''[http://www.goldoptimusprime.com/ More information on gold ''Masterpiece'' Convoy at GoldOptimusPrime.com]''
{{-}}{{anchor|MP2}}
[[File:MPtoy magnus megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Ultra Magnus''' (2004)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-2'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:When ''Masterpiece'' Optimus Prime was recolored to become [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]], Megatron received a new coat of paint as well: the black and brown color scheme of his ''Microchange'' progenitor, which had previously been used on the eHobby exclusive "Megatron Black Version".

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Cybertron/UltraMagnus/ultramagnus.htm More information on Masterpiece Ultra Magnus at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|MasterpieceMegs}}
[[File:MP05 megatron.jpg|upright=2.2|thumb|You will pay dearly for this. Literally and metaphorically...]]
*'''Megatron''' (2007)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-5'''
**''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon, energon mace, energy dagger, laser pistol, [[Kremzeek]] figure

: Scaled to the same height as ''20th Anniversary'' Optimus Prime and designed in only twelve days by [[Hisashi Yuki]],<ref name="mpmegsdev">[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/transformers-masterpiece-47/takaratomy-staff-interview-hisashi-yuki-on-masterpiece-180888/ TakaraTomy Staff Interview - Hisashi Yuki on Masterpiece]: - I hear the first Masterpiece figure you created was MP-5 Megatron and you hold the fastest development record with it.
[Yuki]: That is right. (*laughs) I was not assigned to be in charge of it initially, but due to the circumstance within the company I was unexpectedly handed down the project. The schedule came with it and I was stunned when I realised that I was only given 12 days, about 2 weeks...To make it worse, at the time of my receiving the task, even the product size wasn't decided. (*tears)</ref> ''Masterpiece'' Megatron is an incredibly complex figure—potentially one of, if not ''the'', most complicated ''Transformers'' toys to date—designed to depict a fairly [[Show-accuracy|show-accurate]] Megatron capable of transforming into a realistic (if oversized) Walther P-38. In achieving this seemingly impossible goal, Megatron winds up with the least articulation of the ''Masterpiece'' line, as well as a notably low percentage of die-cast metal.

: Like Prime before him, Megatron comes with several of his iconic accessories from the Generation 1 cartoon: his energon mace from "More than Meets the Eye, Part 2", the energy dagger and laser pistol used in his duel against Prime in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', and a tiny translucent [[Kremzeek]] figure. His fusion cannon also contains a powerful red LED activated when the round detailing on the side of his cannon is pressed.

: Due to concern surrounding updated realistic toy gun laws, some online importers modified ''Masterpiece'' Megatron in order to safely get the toy through United States customs. This customarily involved inserting plugs into the tip of the toy's barrel, from rounded red ones affixed by adhesive to [[:File:HLJplug.jpg|flat-tipped yellow ones]] that could be easily removed. Ultimately, there were no reports of problems with the toy making its way into America, but Australia was another matter. Considered a replica gun and therefore a "restricted import" by Australian Customs, both mass shipments and individual packages of the toy were seized, requiring buyers in some areas to obtain a special permit to own him.

: Given the relatively thin clips throughout the toy to hold it tightly together in gun mode, Megatron's plastic components are particularly prone to breakage, especially on the clips on the upper black grip plates and some of the silver sections near the trigger. Many owners of this figure have also reported rust and tarnish problems on what few metal pieces he has; if your Megatron is a sufferer, check out [http://seibertron.com/energonpub/viewtopic.php?t=16106 this guide] for solutions.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2007/Destron/MPMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Masterpiece Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|MP1B}}
[[File:MPtoy eldedroid megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|... Don't suppose these are [[Megaplex (MW)#Generation 1|Megaplex]]es now, are they?]]
*'''Convoy Black Ver.''' (2010)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-1B'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:The version of Megatron included with this black redeco of Prime—representing a mass-produced [[Eldedroid]]—was much the same as the original accessory, but with dark metallic silver paint.

{{-}}{{anchor|MP4S}}
[[File:MPtoy sleep mode megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Now even ''more'' breakable!]]
*'''Convoy Sleep Mode''' (2010)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-4S'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:Just as [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#sleepmode|this release]] of Optimus Prime was recolored in the faded black and grey hues of he took on with his death in ''The Transformers: The Movie'', so too did his Megatron accessory get a movie-themed makeover: this Megatron is cast entirely in translucent purple plastics, evoking the scene of his transformation into Galvatron from the film, in which he is first reduced to a transparent purple wireframe model.

{{-}}{{anchor|MP13}}
[[File:TRU Masterpiece Soundwave-MegatronGun.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Soundwave''' ([[January 26|1-26]]-[[2013]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-13'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:A [[repaint]] and [[retool]] of the Megatron gun originally included with MP-01 and his redecos, the '''Megatron gun''' included with [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|MP-13 Soundwave]] has been retooled in response to the breakage issues the original version suffered from. Both the sliding butt-end of the handle and the stock have been molded in hard plastic instead of the soft rubbery vinyl of the MP-01 version. A joint has been added to the stock connection point on the handle; for the joint in the stock itself, a straight pin has replaced the original rivet-style pin the softer plastic required. The stock itself no longer emulates the transforming accessory from the G1 toy, and instead features a smaller cylindrical shaft that more closely resembles the original U.N.C.L.E Special. In terms of deco, the minute red paint application on the scope is omitted.

{{anchor|HasbroMasterpieceSoundwave}}
* '''Soundwave''' (2013)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-02'''
**'''09 OF 30'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:The [[Hasbro]] version of ''Masterpiece'' [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#HasbroMasterpiece|Soundwave]] also comes with the Megatron gun. It is seemingly unchanged.

{{-}}{{anchor|MP13B}}
[[File:Megatron mp-13b.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
* '''Soundblaster''' ([[2014]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-13B'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:A [[repaint]] and [[retool]] of the Megatron gun originally included with MP-01 and his redecos, the '''Megatron gun''' included with [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|MP-13B Soundblaster]] features the same retooling as the version released with MP-13 Soundwave, although this time the pieces are cast in translucent red plastic. The only paint application is a silver Decepticon symbol.

{{-}}{{anchor|MasterpieceGoldMegs}}
[[File:MasterpieceGoldMegs.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Does not come studded with Swarovski Elements]]
*'''Megatron Gold Ver.''' (12/2014)
**''ID number:'' '''MP-05G'''
**''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon, energon mace, energy dagger, laser pistol, [[Kremzeek]] figure, [[Reflector (G1)#MasterpieceGoldMegsReflector|Reflector]] figure

: A gold-chrome redeco of the original MP-5 mold, Megatron Gold Version is a Hasbro Asia release under the TakaraTomy label (making it the first TakaraTomy Masterpiece to not be released, thus far, in Japan). It comes with all the same accessories as the original release as well as a new, non-transforming Reflector in camera mode.

{{-}}{{anchor|MP11SW}}
* '''Skywarp''' (01-[[2015]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-11SW'''
**''Accessories'': Scope, silencer, stock

:The Asia only MP-11 version of [[Skywarp (G1)/toys#Masterpiece11SW|Skywarp]] comes with the original MP-1 version of the Megatron gun.
{{-}}

==Titanium Series==
[[File:TitaniumGIJoeHeroesMegatron toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|THE BOX OF DOOM.]]
*'''Megatron''' (6" Cybertron Heroes, 2006)
**''Accessories'': Stand with nameplate

:Part of the very first wave of six-inch ''[[Titanium Series]]'' toys, Megatron was inspired by [[Dreamwave Productions]]' first ''[[Transformers/G.I. Joe]]'' comic book series, set in an alternate-reality World War II. Since the gun mode Megatron sported in that story was nonviable as a toy, this toy features a newly-designed tank alternate mode of made-up model. The backstory of the Megatron from the crossover, including references to Cobra, was retained on the package, make it the first U.S. figure ever produced as part of a ''G.I. Joe / [[Transformers brand|Transformers]]'' crossover.

:Although the figure looks somewhat impressive, it notably has the tendency to fall apart during transformation, combined with loose joints, it was relatively difficult to pose in robot mode without it falling over, something that was entirely par for the course when it came to ''Titanium'' figures. It was known for being a shelfwarmer because of its low quality.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2006/Decepticon/TitMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Titanium Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|TiWarWithin}}
[[File:Megatrontitaniumtww.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|THE... NAP OF DOOM?]]
*'''War Within Megatron''' (6" Cybertron Heroes, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Arm cannon, shield, stand with nameplate

:A new ''Titanium Series'' Megatron based on his [[Transformers: The War Within|''War Within'']] design was initially shown at [[BotCon 2006]], and was released in spring of 2007. Like the original comic book design, his robot mode has a removable arm cannon and shield. In contrast to his previous ''Titanium'' toy, this Megatron has a more posable robot mode, but a fairly unimpressive alternate mode with a transformation that consists of little more than lying the toy on its back and attaching the gun/shield. There is a small clip on the back of the toy which designer [[Don Figueroa]] said was to hold his sword, seen in the comic book, but that accessory was ultimately not produced.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2007/Decepticon/TitTWWMegatron/megatron.htm More information on War Within Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|WarWithin2pack}}
[[File:Titanium war within 2pack.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''War Within Optimus Prime vs. War Within Megatron''' (two-pack, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Arm cannon, shield

:This [[Toys"R"Us]] [[exclusive]] ''Titanium'' two-pack includes the previously-released ''War Within'' Megatron and [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Titanium|Optimus Prime]] figures along with a copy of [[The War Within issue 5|''The War Within'' #5]] with an exclusive variant cover. Despite being mentioned in the joint [[instructions]] leaflet for the set, the display bases which came with the individual releases of the figures are not included.

:As the mass retail release of the last waves of the ''Titanium'' "Cybertron Heroes" figures was delayed for several months, this two-pack release Megatron was initially more widely available than the individually-sold one. The pack itself was available in two variations: One version has the Optimus Prime figure more or less identical to its individual release, whereas the other one drops the additional black paint weathering, making him much cleaner-looking.
{{--}}

==Classics (2006)==
[[File:Megatronclassicstoy.jpg|upright=2.2|thumb|Paint me black and give me to a kid, ASAP.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Voyager, 2006)

:After years of tanks and jets, ''Classics'' Megatron finally found a way to take Megatron back to his root as a transforming gun, complete with a working crosshairs in his scope and a spring-loaded clicking trigger. Described on-package as a "fusion blaster", Megatron's gun mode is apparently based on a [[:File:N-strike maverick.jpg|Nerf N-Strike Maverick blaster]], and decked out in a [[for safety reasons|safety-regulation-friendly]] color scheme consisting of lots of green and purple (in an apparent homage to his old ''Generation 2'' colors), plus bright orange on both the tip of the barrel and the scope. Years later, it would be discovered that, for currently unknown reasons, the bright color of this orange plastic would fade over time, even if not directly exposed to sunlight.

:Early [[stock photography|official Hasbro photographs]], including those appearing on the toy's [[packaging]], show the gun mode's trigger and other small parts as being orange, those parts were gray in later stock photography and the final release. They also depict Megatron with noticeably different "eyebrow" [[paint operation]]s that matched those of the original Megatron toy, consisting of two small black triangles on his gray plastic forehead. The finished toy inverts this, painting most of his forehead black and leaving the triangles unpainted grey.

:In a glaring example of poor [[quality control]], the back of the packaging reads "working scope becomes anti-proton pulse ''[[canon]]''!"<ref name="canon">[http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/toys/classics/megatron/928/2/20/ ''Classics'' Megatron's packaging misspells "cannon" as "canon".]</ref>

:''Classics'' Megatron was redecoed in Japan as part of the ''[[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (toyline)|Henkei! Henkei!]] Transformers'' line by [[TakaraTomy]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2006/Decepticon/ClassicsMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Classics Voyager Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|UltimateBattle}}
[[File:Classicstoy ultimate battle megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Former Moonwalking extraordinaire.]]
*'''Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle''' (Deluxe versus set, 2006)
**''Accessories'': Rifle
: "Ultimate Battle" Megatron evokes his ''Generation 2'' form as a green tank. Like his pack-in partner, who has a spinning "power punch" action, Megatron features a similar "spinning dervish action" gimmick, his right arm ending not in a fist but a bladed polearm which whirls around with the press of a button at his shoulder. He comes with a small rifle with a rather pointless flip-out stock extension. The very tip of his cannon is a detachable piece, and can become lost ''very'' easily.

: Megatron is [[misassembly|misassembled]] in-package, with his feet swapped and attached backwards. Although not immediately noticeable due to the fact that [[:File:MegatronUltimateBattle.jpg|promotional]] and box-art photography also show this misassembly, any attempt to transform Megatron into tank mode immediately demonstrates the mistake, which is easily corrected by unscrewing his lower legs, reversing the foot pieces, and attaching each to the opposite leg (as has been done in the picture at right).

:In the United States, Megatron was only available in a special two-pack with a similarly unique ''Classics'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Optimus Prime toy]], and the specially-produced "[[Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle|The Ultimate Battle]]" DVD (which is, inappropriately enough, entirely about the [[Unicron Trilogy]]). The two-pack (including the DVD) was also available as a [[Walmart]] [[exclusive]] "Bonus Value" version with two randomly selected members of the ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (toyline)|Cybertron]]'' [[Giant Planet Mini-Con Team]], in the combinations [[Overcast (Cybertron)|Overcast]]/[[Longarm (Cybertron)|Longarm]], Overcast/[[Deepdive]] and Deepdive/Longarm. International markets, including European countries, saw the two-pack in a considerably smaller, differently-shaped box that was lacking the DVD case (in the [[United Kingdom]] and the Netherlands, the DVD just came in a paper sleeve; in other European countries, it was instead made available separately). In addition, the two figures were also sold on [[#cardedultbattle|individual cardbacks]] in some countries (see below). For the United States market, the two-pack was [[rebranding|rebranded]] and [[#universeultbattle|re-released]] in the [[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|''Universe'']] line in 2007, and [[#2010ultimatebattle|again in 2011]] for the [[Transformers (2010 toyline)|2010 ''Transformers'']] line.

:Not initially released in Japan, this sculpt only got a TakaraTomy release six years later when it was redecoed into "[[#UnitedTank|Tank Megatron]]" for TakaraTomy's ''[[Transformers United|United]]'' toyline.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2006/Decepticon/ClassicsDVDMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Classics Deluxe Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|cardedultbattle}}
[[File:Classicstoy ultimate battle megatron carded.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb]]
*'''Megatron''' (Deluxe, 2007)
**''Accessories'': Rifle

:The "Ultimate Battle" version of Megatron was also sold on his own in several countries, Mexico, Singapore, and some European countries including the [[United Kingdom]], the Netherlands, Hungary and also Russia. He is identical to the two-pack version, down to his misassembled feet.
{{-}}

==Universe (2003)==
{{anchor|universeultbattle}}[[File:Universetoy ultimate battle.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle''' (multi-pack, 2007/2008)
**''Accessories:'' Rifle

:The "Ultimate Battle" two-pack, sans DVD, was [[rebranding|rebranded]] for inclusion in the ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]]'' toy line, and one was one of the last releases to come out of the line, several years after it had ceased regularly releasing figures. The set appeared in liquidation outlets like Big Lots! and Dollar General stores in Fall 2007, then later in [[KB Toys]] in Summer 2008. The figures remain identical to their previous releases, with Megatron's feet still coming assembled backwards.
{{-}}

==Sports Label==
[[File:Nikeatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Some idiots thought I was going to be life-sized! Fools! Foooools!!!]]
*'''Megatron featuring Nike Free 7.0''' (2007)
**''ID number:'' '''02'''
**''Accessories:'' Gun

:''[[Transformers Sports Label|Sports Label]]'' Megatron is a retool of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Sports Label|''Sports Label'' Optimus Prime]], one of the strangest examples of licensed ''Transformers'' products in that he transforms into a ''shoe''. Something of a [[shellformer]], this baffling incarnation of Megatron is primarily black and silver in his alternate mode as a realistic-looking (if notably undersized) Nike Free 7.0 sneaker, complete with gratuitously long real fabric shoelaces (characterized as "electrical discharge cables" in his bio). In robot mode, he sports some additional red paint applications and a somewhat uniquely-shaped yet instantly recognizable Generation 1-inspired head. Also in this mode, Megatron's feet are sculpted in the likeness of his own sneaker mode, making it seem like he's wearing himself!

:His gun splits into two halves and stores inside his [[kibble]] in shoe mode; in an undocumented features, it has two handle pegs on opposite sides, so that it can be held either at its far end or halfway along its length. The gun halves can also be plugged together in two different ways.

:This mold might have been planned for a redeco into [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Sports Label|''Sports Label'' Starscream]], but that's a bit vague.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2007/Destron/SLMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Sports Label'' Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Encore==
[[File:Encoretoy megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron''' (2007)
**''ID number:'' '''02'''
**''Accessories'': Silencer, stock, telescopic sight/fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets

:The original Generation 1 Megatron figure was reissued yet again in 2007 as part of TakaraTomy's new line of "[[Transformers Encore|Encore]]" reissues. Like previous reissues, this Megatron features the Hasbro colors and the accessories from both Hasbro and Takara editions of the figure, with the distinguishing new feature of a tan shade to both his gray plastic and his chrome.
{{-}}

==Henkei! Henkei!==
[[File:Henkeitoy megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|"Megatron's palette must be swapped... no matter the cost."]]
*'''Megatron''' (Voyager, 2008)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''D-01'''

:''[[Henkei! Henkei! Transformers (toyline)|Henkei! Henkei!]] Transformers'' Megatron is a redeco of the ''Classics'' version. Not bound by the safety regulations that necessitated ''Classics'' Megatron's more colorful appearance, ''Henkei'' Megatron features a significantly different color scheme of black, silver and red designed to make him resemble his original Generation 1 appearance, including translucent red plastic to replicate his classic cartoon "Decepticon red" eyes. All ''Henkei'' toys feature (somewhat randomly-applied) vacuum-metalized chrome parts; in Megatron's case, his chest plate and kneecaps are chromed silver.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2006/Decepticon/ClassicsMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Henkei Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Universe (2008)==
{{anchor|2008legend}}[[File:Megatronlegend2008.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|His shoulders hurt too, buddy!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Legends of Cybertron, 2008)

:A [[Legends Class]] version of Megatron inspired by his ''Generation 2'' tank design, although featuring a more realistic shade of green.
:Sadly, because of his transformation, when transformed into tank mode his turret doesn't turn around. Some of Legends Class Megatron's transformation shares several similarities to his Generation 2 toy.

:Although his first stock photography features a slightly long turret, the final product had it shortened.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/LegendsMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Universe Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
{{anchor|UniSpecEd}}
*'''Megatron''' (Deluxe Class: Special Edition, 2008)
**''ID number:'' '''SE-02'''
**''Accessories:'' Rifle
[[File:Universe2008-toy SEMegatron.JPG|upright=1.66|thumb]]
:This "Special Edition" of Megatron is a redeco of the "Ultimate Battle" Megatron from ''Classics'', this time featuring a Generation 1-inspired deco of grays, red and black. This new deco takes advantage of the toy's mould break-up to add a fifth plastic colour (where the original only had four), dividing the parts which were dark grey on the original version between light grey, red and black plastic. Also marking this figure as a particularly "special" edition is the fact that it's the first release of the figure to assemble his feet the correct way around. Amusingly, his [[packaging]] [[stock photography]] depicts him as ''missing a part'': his cannon's detachable tip is missing, and the tip of the cannon's stub is painted red to somehow compensate for that.

:Like all the figures in the small Special Edition line, Megatron was designed for Australasian markets and features a bookbox style packaging with black-and-white boxart, retailing at about 150% of the price for a normal deluxe outside of the United States. He was not available at retail in North America, but was for sale on Hasbrotoyshop.com, like the other Special Edition toys.

:Oddly enough, this Megatron and the three other Universe Special Edition toys were included in Taiwanese special value packs each containing a [[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (film)/home video|''Revenge of the Fallen'' DVD]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2008/Decepticon/HTSMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Special Edition Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{--}}

==Alternity==
[[File:Alternity Megatron Toy Blade Silver.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Behold, my Inertia Manipulating Device under my Skirt Armor!!!]]
*'''Megatron Blade Silver''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''A-02'''
**''Accessories:'' 2 "tesseractal swords"
:The ''[[Transformers: Alternity|Alternity]]'' Megatron toy transforms into a 1:32 scale model of a Nissan 370Z and features die-cast metal parts and rubber tires. The figure wields two "tesseractal swords" which can be pegged at its hips, or stored under the car in vehicle mode. Each forearm features a flip-out "gravital blade."

: In the hyper-dimensional world of the oft-confusing ''Alternity'' fiction, each figure from this line represents a distinct version of a character from a separate [[universal stream]], but which precise Megatron the "Blade Silver" toy embodies has not been disclosed. Upon its initial release, this toy was also available in blue (see below), and later redecoed in a black variant as well. It was later redecoed into ''Alternity'' [[Galvatron (G1)/toys#Alternity|Galvatron]].

:[[:File:Alternity Megatron Cannon.jpg|Early concepts]] for ''Alternity'' showed him with the trademark fusion cannon rather than his twin swords, as well as a pronounced Decepticon [[insignia]] on his chest.

{{-}}{{anchor|AlternityBlue}}
[[File:Alternitytoy blue megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron Premium Le Mans Blue''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''A-02'''
**''Accessories:'' 2 "tesseractal swords"

: "Premium Le Mans Blue" Megatron is a blue redeco of the "Blade Silver" version, representing the Megatron of [[universal stream]] [[BT World|Primax 903.0 Beta]]. The figure was available simultaneously with Megatron Blade Silver, sharing the same packaging and pack-in materials, save for the color of the illustration on the front of the box, and a sticker that identified the figure within.

{{-}}{{anchor|AlternityBlack}}
[[File:Alternitytoy black megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron Diamond Black''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''A-02'''
**''Accessories:'' 2 "tesseractal swords"

: Another redeco of ''Alternity'' Megatron, this time transforming into a black car with robot parts in red and gold, and specifically representing the Megatron of universal stream [[Primax 1286.3 Kappa]]. It was released several months after the first two Megatrons and featured a new package illustration.
{{-}}

==United==
[[File:Unitedtoy cybertron megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron Cybertron Mode''' (Deluxe, [[December 25|12-25]]-2010)
**''ID number'': '''UN-04'''
**''Accessories'': Cannon/missile launcher, energy-blast missile

: Part of the first wave of ''[[Transformers United|United]]'' product, "Cybertron Mode" Megatron is a [[redeco]] of the [[Megatron (WFC)/toys#Generations|''War for Cybertron'' Megatron toy]], transforming into a Cybertronian self-propelled gun. The treads of his vehicle can be positioned in either a vertical configuration like a traditional tank or in a horizontal, hovertank configuration. Megatron's spring-loaded cannon can attach to either arm.

:Megatron is cast in a deep dark metallic gray plastic rather than the light gray plastic of the Hasbro version. He also features a blood red metallic paint instead of the more traditional red used on the Hasbro version. Other notable differences include the Decepticon symbol upon his chest as well as lacking paint on the sliding mechanism within his fusion cannon.

:This mold was also used to make [[Darkside Megatron]].

{{-}}{{anchor|UnitedEarth}}
[[File:United Megatron voyager toy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|No, I didn't direct any of the ''Taken'' films!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Voyager, 2010)
**''ID number:'' '''UN-09'''

:The second ''United'' Megatron (but still part of the first assortment) is a redeco of the Voyager Class mold from ''[[#Classics (2006)|Classics]]/[[#Henkei! Henkei!|Henkei!]]''.

:This release of Megatron features an extensive silver paint job, as well as metallic crimson for details. This figure's deco is based on the G1 cartoon model, removing any extraneous painted details from the previous releases. The face and eyebrow crest are painted white, giving it an appearance very similar to the initial solicitations of ''[[Transformers: Classics|Classics]]'' Megatron.

{{-}}{{anchor|UnitedTank}}
[[File:Unitedtoy thunder megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|"Megatron rules!" isn't written anywhere on my body, so doesn't that technically make me [[Archforce]]?]]
*'''Tank Megatron''' (Deluxe, [[January 28|1-28]]-2012)
**''ID number:'' '''UN-25'''
**''Accessories:'' Rifle

:Tank Megatron is the first Japanese release of the "Ultimate Battle" Megatron mold from ''Classics'', in a new color scheme paying homage to his ''Generation 2'' "Hero" deco. The connection is strengthened by the [[:File:United Megatron Rules.jpg|photo on the back of the packaging]], which depicts Megatron standing in a ruined, burning landscape, surrounded by over a dozen "Megatron Rules" signs.
{{-}}

==Transformers (2010)==
{{anchor|2010Legend}}
[[File:TF2010-toy Legends Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Safety first!]]
*'''Megatron''' (Legends, 2011)

:Part of the [[Transformers (2010 toyline)|2010 ''Transformers'' line's]] "[[Reveal the Shield]]" [[subline imprint]], this toy is based on Megatron's Generation 1 cartoon appearance (with a little inspiration from [[IDW Publishing|IDW]]'s ''[[The Transformers: All Hail Megatron|All Hail Megatron]]'' design around the abdomen), transforming into a variation on Megatron's original gun mode (referred to as a "blaster" on Hasbro's website). As he was part of Reveal the Shield, he has a [[rubsign]] on his chest.

[[File:MP Acid Storm-Chronicle gun Megatron-Pull My Trigger.jpg|thumb|right|upright=0.85|To hell with safety!]]
:In a fit of complete awesomeness, the figure is sculpted with notches in its handle that specifically allow the ''Masterpiece'' [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Masterpiece|Starscream]] mold to grip it. Additionally, the slightly thicker portion of the barrel closer to the main body can be held by the clip included with ''Masterpiece'' Starscream and attach to his jet mode. Unfortunately, Megatron can only be held vertically.

:Despite his tiny size, Hasbro had to cast much of the gun (his arms, the barrel/fusion cannon, and the upper half of his torso) in orange plastic [[for safety reasons]]. Official Hasbro [[stock photography|stock photos]] and early [[prototype|samples]] from China had the orange plastic on the barrel fully painted over in gray, yet the final toy leaves the end of the barrel unpainted.

::*''[http://tfu.info/2011/Decepticon/RTSMegatron/megatron.htm More information on "Reveal the Shield" Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|2010ultimatebattle}}
[[File:TF2010toy ultimate battle.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''The Ultimate Battle''' (multi-pack, 2011)
**''Accessories:'' Rifle
:Another [[rebranding|rebranded]] re-release of the ''Classics'' "[[#Ultimate.2BBattle|Ultimate Battle]]" set, again lacking the DVD and featuring [[misassembly|misassembled]] feet on Megatron. This particular release of the set was available as a "shared exclusive" between Dollar General stores and online retailer [[BigBadToyStore]]. This set was also available at Canadian Tire stores in [[Canada]].
{{-}}

{{anchor|DollarLegends}}
*'''Megatron''' (Legends Class, 2012)
:A [[rebranding|rebranded]] version of ''[[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]]'' Legends Class Megatron without changes (besides the packaging) was released as a "Dollar Store" exclusive (available at stores such as Dollar General and Big Lots) in generic 2010 ''Transformers'' packaging packaging alongside [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#DollarLegends|Optimus Prime]], [[Starscream (G1)/toys#DollarLegends|Starscream]] and [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#DollarLegends|Bumblebee]].
{{picsneeded}}
{{-}}

==G.I. Joe and the Transformers==
[[File:JoevsTF megatron accessory.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|That's nice, but where's the [[Joey Slick]] figure?]]
*'''Starscream Sky Striker (XP-21F)''' (San Diego Comic-Con exclusive, 2011)

: Produced exclusively for [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2011, this redeco of the ''G.I. Joe'' [[Skystriker (vehicle)|Skystriker]] jet plane into [[Starscream (G1)/toys#G.I. Joe and the Transformers|Starscream]] colors comes with a 3.75" [[Cobra Commander#G.I. Joe and the Transformers 2|Cobra Commander]] pilot figure, among whose accessories is a non-transforming gun mode Megatron.
{{--}}

==Chronicle==
[[File:Chronicletoy ez megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Megatron''' (EZ Collection, 2011)

:A redeco of the 2010 ''Transformers'' Legends Class Megatron was released in Japan as part of the ''[[Transformers Chronicle|Chronicle]]'' EZ Collection line. Due to Japan's different gun laws, he is instead cast in gray plastic, with the barrel being fully painted. The gray paint on the aforementioned barrel is also darker and metallic, (instead of Hasbro's glossy light-gray paint) his red [[paint operation]]s are darker, and he replaces the rubsign with a full-color Decepticon symbol [[tampograph]]. This toy was only available [[Blindpacking|blindpacked]].

{{-}}
{{anchor|G1MovieMegatron}}
[[File:Chronicletoy-CH02G1Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''G1 Megatron & Movie Megatron''' (multi-pack, 2011)
**''ID number:'' '''CH02'''
**''Accessories:'' Fusion cannon, "high-density infrared laser cannon", sword, 20 bullets

:This [[e-HOBBY]]-exclusive reissue of the original Generation 1 Megatron toy comes in a two-pack with a redeco of ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)|Dark of the Moon]]'' Voyager Class [[Megatron (Movie)/toys#Chronicle|Megatron]]. This version of Megatron is made to the specifications of the 1986 "[[#GoodBye|Goodbye Megatron]]" release, featuring red plastic (as opposed to the original Takara blue) but lacking any silver chrome, including his fusion cannon but not his stock and silencer, armed with his laser cannon and sword, and retaining his bullet-firing mechanism. Like most Megatron reissues, the toy features a slight variation in plastic colors from previous releases, this time giving him a darker warmer gray than normal. In a new twist, this version of Megatron features tampographed symbols on his chest and back.

{{-}}
{{anchor|ChronicleEZHero}}
[[File:Chronicletoy ez series2 megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67|[[Trukk not munky|Gunn not Tank]]!...no wait, tank is cooler.]]
*'''Megatron''' (EZ Collection, 2011)

:A [[redeco]] of the [[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]] [[Legends Class]] Megatron, this time inspired by his smaller ''Generation 2'' "Hero" tank design.
{{-}}

==Generations==
{{anchor|GenerationsVoyager}}
[[File:GenerationsGDOtoy-Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|[[Bludgeon (RID 2001)|What goes around, comes around.]]]]
*'''Megatron''' (Voyager Class, 2012)
**''Accessories:'' [[Wikipedia:Katana|Katana]], [[Wikipedia:Wakizashi|tanto]]
: ''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' Megatron is an Asian market and Toys"R"Us-exclusive redeco/retool of ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen:]] [[N.E.S.T. Global Alliance]]'' Voyager Class [[Bludgeon (ROTF)#Voyager|Bludgeon]], sporting a new, smiling head. Megatron transforms from a Japanese [[Wikipedia:Type 90 Kyū-maru|Type 90]] tank into a samurai-esque robot mode. He features a flexible plastic sword which is made out of a portion of the barrel of the tank's main gun, as well as a smaller dagger. The dagger can be stored in a sheath which is revealed from inside the tank turret, and both blades can be slotted in holes provided on the robot mode's left hip guard. The larger sword has a peghole at the bottom of the hilt; though it is specifically designed to allow the dagger's handle to fit in the base to form a double-bladed weapon, it can also fit any other accessory that uses [[5mm post|5mm posts]]. The post used to combine the swords remains unobstructed in vehicle mode, meaning you can attach the dagger to the end of Megatron's main tank cannon if you're feeling silly. He also has [[Mech Alive]] [[gimmick|gimmicks]] in his thighs and turret: sculpted cylinders in his thighs rotate whenever his lower legs are rotated, and pulling his turret open makes a sculpted white "disc" at the center rotate while a scabbard for the tantō hinges over to the side and props itself up for use.

:The vehicle mode is one of the very few Transformer tank toys with rubber components to its treads. Portions of the tread links can unlock, allowing them to hang from the robot mode, while the wheels of the treads are integrated separately into the robot mode form itself. The treads still do not function realistically; small plastic wheels on the underside of the treads help the tank mode roll, as is standard with nearly all Transformer tank toys. On the plus side, the tank turret can be rotated a full three-hundred sixty degrees, as can the purple machine gun that sits atop the turret.

:Unlike the other uses of this mold, Megatron comes [[Packaging|packaged]] in robot mode holding his swords, with additional plastic and paper ties in the tray imperfectly holding his swords in position. Because they were packaged this way since they were shipped out of the factory, most Megatrons come with the swords being badly bent and warped ''in the box''. Fortunately, the swords' blades can be ''mostly'' straightened by leaving them sheathed in their hidden scabbards. Straightening their ''hilts'' is a different matter, though.

:This toy suddenly popped up for ''preorder'' at BigBadToyStore in mid-2015, ''three whole years'' after its original release.

: This version of the mold was also used to make ''[[Transformers Cloud|Cloud]]'' [[#Cloud|Megatron]], while the original version was redecoed into ''Transformers: [[Hunt for the Decepticons]]'' [[Banzaitron]], and differently retooled to make ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' [[Overlord (Masterforce)#Timelines|Gigatron]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/GDOMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Generations'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|GenerationsLegends}}
[[File:Generationstoy-T30-LegendsMegatronChopShop.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Watch yer wallet, Megs.]]
*'''Megatron & Chop Shop''' (Legends Class, 2013)
**''Series / Number'': '''02 / #004'''

:Part of the fourth wave of 2012-onwards ''Generations'' Legends Class toys, ''[[Thrilling 30]]'' Megatron is a new mold that is roughly the same size as a ''[[Cyberverse]]'' Commander Class toy. He transforms from a generic tank with rotating turret into a robot based on his [[Alex Milne]] pre-war design as seen in "[[Chaos Theory Part 1]]" from [[IDW Publishing|IDW's]] ''[[The Transformers (IDW)|The Transformers]]'' ongoing series, and features [[5mm post|5mm-compatible]] ports for his hands and left forearm/turret roof.

: He comes with [[Chop Shop (G1)#Generations|Chop Shop]], who can transform into a stag beetle, a robot, a weapon with a 5mm handle, and a mine plow that attaches to the front of Megatron’s tank mode. He features gearing that opens his pinchers when his legs are moved.

:This mold was retooled into ''Generations [[Combiner Wars]]'' Legends Class [[Warpath (G1)#CWLegends|Warpath]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/GenLegMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Generations'' Legends Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Deluxe}}
[[File:Generations IDW megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|And the fandom collectively soiled itself.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Deluxe, 2013)
**''Series / Number'': '''02 / #003'''
**''Accessories'': 2 wingtips (combine to form Fusion Cannon)

:Part of the fifth wave of 2012-onwards ''Generations'' Deluxe Class toys, ''Thrilling 30'' Megatron is based on [[Don Figueroa]]'s stealth bomber design from the IDW Publishing ''[[Heart Like a Wheel|The Transformers]]'' ongoing series (which resembles a Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit). In robot mode, his wingtips detach to combine and transform into his [[Fusion cannon#Deluxe|fusion cannon]] (although it's actually designed after the [[rail gun]] this body was equipped with in IDW's comics, but of course Hasbro couldn't call it ''that'' on a toy's packaging). The cannon can peg into 5mm ports on his hands and forearms. This design was actually taken from an official pitch without Figueroa's permission and with no compensation to the artist; a fact he was rather sore about.<ref>[http://www.seibertron.com/energonpub/don-figueroa-designed-idw-s-stealth-bomber-megatron-but-wasn-t-compensated--t96022s0.php "So I read that this was being made into a toy? wow, and I thought only 3rd party companies take stuff without giving any notice, acknowledgement or compensation... FYI: hasbro nor idw solicited me to do this design, I did it on my own."]</ref>

:In the American release Megatron comes packed in with a copy of IDW's [[Spotlight: Megatron]], sporting a 'Hasbro Exclusive Cover' cropped from the [[Clayton Crain]] [[:File:SLMegatron cvrRI.jpg|retailer incentive cover]]. In European and Canadian markets the figure was released without the Spotlight.

:He was later retooled into ''Generations'' [[Dreadwing (G2)#Generations|Dreadwing]] and ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' [[Krok (G1)#Timelines|Krok]].

::*''[http://tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/GenMegatron/megatron.htm More information on ''Thrilling 30'' Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|SDCCMetroplex}}
*'''Metroplex''' (Titan Class, 2013)
**'''01 OF 30'''

: An [[exclusive]] version of Titan Class [[Metroplex (G1)#SDCC|Metroplex]] was made available at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2013. He comes with 12 small, non-transforming figurines of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#SDCCMetroplex|Orion Pax]], Megatron, [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#SDCCMetroplex|Bumblebee]], [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#SDCCMetroplex|Thundercracker]], [[Trailbreaker (G1)#SDCCMetroplex|Trailcutter]], and [[Hoist (G1)#SDCCMetroplex|Hoist]], all in both modes. The figurines are based on their Thrilling 30 ''Generations'' Deluxe Class toys, and similarly to [[Decoy]]s, the Autobot figurines are cast in red plastic, and the Decepticons in purple.

{{-}}{{anchor|HKACGCONMetroplex}}
[[File:Generationstoy-T30-Metroplex-Megatron-HKACGCON.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|I... can't... move...]]
*'''Metroplex''' (Titan Class, 2013)
**'''05 OF 30'''

: Another exclusive version of Titan Class [[Metroplex (G1)#HKACGCON|Metroplex]] was made available at [[Hong Kong ACG-CON]] 2013. This Metroplex also has the 12 figurines of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#HKACGCONMetroplex|Orion Pax]], Megatron, [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#HKACGCONMetroplex|Bumblebee]], [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#HKACGCONMetroplex|Thundercracker]], [[Trailbreaker (G1)#HKACGCONMetroplex|Trailcutter]], and [[Hoist (G1)#HKACGCONMetroplex|Hoist]], but casts the Autobot figurines in gold plastic, and the Decepticons in silver.

{{-}}{{anchor|VSOrionPax}}
[[File:TTGenerationsTG25OrionPaxMegatronus.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Orion Pax VS Megatronus''' (Multi-pack, [[October 26|10-26]]-2013)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''TG-25'''
**''Accessories'': 2 wingtips (combine to form cannon)

: Released in the Japanese ''Generations'' lineup, Megatronus is a redeco of ''Generations'' Deluxe Megatron in a darker shade of black, replacing the previously purple parts with more black and rendering the translucent plastic cannon a shade of red. Megatronus features extensive paint details, including purple lining inside the grooves on his head, shoulders and knees, silver paint on his legs and engines and red eyes. He was only available in a two-pack with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#VSMegatronus|Orion Pax]].

: This toy is meant to depict Megatron as he was before the war broke out, hence the name, which originated as a pre-war name for [[Megatron (WFC)|Aligned continuity Megatron]].

{{-}}{{anchor|MegatronStarscream2pack}}
[[File:TTGenerationsTG28MegatronChopShop.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|BURRITOOOS!!!!]]
*'''Megatron & Starscream''' (Multi-pack, [[December 28|12-28]]-2013)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''TG28'''

: The Japanese release of Legends Class Megatron is cast in his traditional gray, black and red color scheme and features extensive metallic silver paint. He and Chop Shop were only available in a two-pack with [[Starscream (G1)/toys#MegatronStarscream2pack|Starscream]] and [[Waspinator (BW)#MegatronStarscream2pack|Waspinator]].
{{-}}

{{anchor|Leader}}
[[File:LeaderMegatron2015.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.95|"What? No, of course I don't have an Autobot insignia! [[...And the Damage Done: Dark Cybertron Finale|Why would you think that?"]]]]
*'''Megatron''' (Leader, 2015)
**''Accessories'': Two guns (combine to form rifle), missile
:Part of the first wave of 2015 ''Generations'' Leader Class toys, Megatron transforms from a robot heavily inspired by his Generation 1 animation model into a tank featuring working treads. He includes a sticker sheet featuring two each of Decepticon and Autobot [[insignia]] (the latter in reference to IDW's ''[[The Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|More than Meets the Eye]]''), plus stickers intended to replicate those on the original Megatron toy's chest and fusion cannon. Megatron also comes packaged with a collector's card featuring art from the initial release of the ''[[Transformers Legends (mobile game)|Transformers Legends]]'' mobile game. His box-back bio bears a superficial similarity to our wiki's article on [[Megatron (WFC)|another Megatron]].
:He features a spark chamber hatch which is sculpted in likeness to the one seen in [[Master Blaster]]. In a feature that goes undocumented in Megatron's instructions, his two guns can store underneath the rear of his alternate mode.

:Select aspects of this design, such as the leg-mounted treads, the general transformation sequence and the tank alt-mode, were used to represent G1 Megatron in [[Transformers: Devastation]].

:He was retooled into [[Megatron (Armada)/toys#Generations|''Armada'' Megatron]].

{{-}}
{{anchor|SingaporeTRULeader}}
*'''Megatron''' (Lucky Draw Leader, 2016)
**''Accessories'': Two guns (combine to form rifle), missile

:Released as a contest prize for Toys R' Us Singapore, this ''Combiner Wars'' Leader Class Megatron is a redeco of the Leader Class toy above, featuring chrome silver paint on his silver parts. The figure can be obtained by spending $600 worth of Transformers products only with their Star Card. The contest ran in March 1st till 31st.

{{-}}
===Cyber Series===
[[File:Generations-Cyber-Battalion-Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|He may have rocket launchers in his feet, but that doesn't mean he has mistletoe.]]
*'''Megatron''' (Cyber Battalion, 2015)

:Part of the first and only assortment of Generations Cyber Series figures, Megatron is a voyager-sized figure and transforms into a futuristic tank with a transformation scheme that borrows much of its engineering from the Universe G2 Legend Class Megatron from 2008 though does have some unique steps. His large fusion cannon can be held in his fist or mounted on his arm as any classic representation of Megatron would.

:The Cyber Series as a whole is pretty hard to come by. This figure along with the others were available in limited quantities from online retailer BigBadToyStore.com, though other than that they haven't hit mass retail anywhere besides Asia and Latin America.

{{-}}

==Bot Shots==
[[Image:Bot Shots S1 BP004 Megatron.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''Nemesis Prime / Megatron / Acid Storm''' (Multi-pack, 2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''BP004'''
***''Fist strength'': '''170'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''820'''
***''Sword strength'': '''625'''

:Part of the first wave of ''[[Bot Shots (toyline)|Bot Shots]]'' Series 1 three-packs, Megatron is a teeny tank that borrows some elements from both the ''[[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)|War for Cybertron]]'' and ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (franchise)|Revenge of the Fallen]]'' Megatron designs. He has [[Autotransformation|a spring-loaded automatic transformation]] to robot mode triggered when his front is pressed, and has a "spinner" in his chest that shows his three attack types and power levels.

:He comes with [[Nemesis Prime (G1)|Nemesis Prime]] and [[Acid Storm|Super Bot Acid Storm]]. He shares parts with [[Brawl (Movie)#Bot Shots|Decepticon Brawl]] and [[Shockwave (Movie)#Bot Shots|Shockwave]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BS3pkMegatron/megatron.htm More information on 3-pack Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotLauncher}}
[[Image:BStoy-MegatronLauncher.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''Megatron Launcher''' (Launcher, 2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''BL002'''
***''Fist strength'': '''530'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''900'''
***''Sword strength'': '''210'''

:Part of the first wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 1 Launchers, this is a [[redeco]] of the ''Bot Shots'' tank Megatron mold in bronze. He comes with a large "trailer" tank body extension that transforms into a battle station with flip-out cannons and a launching mechanism. The large, main cannon on the launcher has detailing reminiscent of the original [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]]'s [[fusion cannon]], such as the "dials" on the sides.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BSLMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Launcher Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotSuperBot}}
[[Image:Bot_Shots_Super_Bot_Megatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|]]
*'''Megatron''' (2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''Super Bot 003'''
***''Fist strength'': '''285'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''465'''
***''Sword strength'': '''870'''

:Part of the third wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 1 single-packs, "Super Bot" Megatron transforms into a semi-truck with trailer, taking inspiration from the ''[[Kre-O]]'' and ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (film)|Dark of the Moon]]'' Megatrons. As a Super Bot, he has more lopsided stats (sorta), and was [[Shortpacking|shortpacked]] one per case.

:This mold was redecoed into [[Motormaster (G1)|Motorbreath]]. He shares parts with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Bot Shots|Optimus Prime]] and Nemesis Prime.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BSSBMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Super Bot Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotBattleForMatrix}}
[[Image:BStoy-BattlefortheMatrix-LauncherMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|]]
*'''Battle for the Matrix''' (Multi-pack, 2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''UB003'''
***''Fist strength'': '''875'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''330'''
***''Sword strength'': '''415'''

: This redeco of the tank version of Megatron is cast in a warmer, non-metallic shade of black, with bronze details, a brighter silver face, and brighter red eyes. He comes with a redeco of his launcher, also in black, bronze, and silver.

: The set also comes with [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#BotShotBattleForMatrix|Optimus Prime with his launcher]], [[Brawl (Movie)#BotShotBattleForMatrix|Decepticon Brawl]], [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#BotShotBattleForMatrix|Bumblebee]], and a [[Matrix of Leadership/toys#Bot Shots|Matrix]] prize.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BSBFTMMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Battle for the Matrix Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotTruck}}
[[Image:BStoy-CybertruckMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Megatron doesn't ''need'' your puny windshields.]]
*'''Megatron''' (2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''B018'''
***''Fist strength'': '''800'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''520'''
***''Sword strength'': '''300'''

:Part of the fifth wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 1 single-packs, this Megatron is a redeco of Super Bot Megatron in opaque plastics and with a painted "tanker" trailer section. The online Bot Shots checklist refers to this toy as "Megatron Cybertruck", a name not found on the packaging.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Decepticon/BSB018Megatron/megatron.htm More information on "Cybertruck" Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|DragonTrack}}
[[File:BotShots Dragon Megatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Infused with the power of DORK Energon.]]
*'''Dragon Track''' (Playset, 2013)
**''Series'': '''2'''
**''Number'': '''UB002'''
***''Fist strength'': '''480'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''735'''
***''Sword strength'': '''405'''
**''Accessories'': Launcher

:Available only with the Dragon Track set, this version of Megatron is a new Flip Shot mold, changing into a purple jet with animalistic styling on its nose, and featuring a robot mode that's inspired more by ''[[Transformers: Prime (franchise)|Prime]]'' Megatron. An impact to the front of the jet will cause Megatron to flip back into robot mode. He comes with a launcher that can be connected to the track, as well as [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#DragonTrack|Flip Shot Optimus Prime and his launcher]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/BSDTMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Dragon Track Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|FireAssaultTeam}}
[[File:BotShots FireAssault Megatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|"I—I stayed out in the sun too long, okay!?"]]
*'''Decepticon Fire Assault Team''' (Multi-pack, 2013)
**''Series'': '''2'''
**''Number'': '''T016'''
***''Fist strength'': '''290'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''86?'''
***''Sword strength'': '''462'''

:A redeco of the original Megatron mold in red and orange, this version of Megatron was available in a five-pack with similar redecos of [[Shockwave (Movie)#FireAssaultTeam|Shockwave]], [[Starscream (G1)/toys#FireAssaultTeam|Starscream]], [[Barricade (Movie)/toys#FireAssaultTeam|Barricade]], and [[Lockdown (ROTF)#FireAssaultTeam|Lockdown]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/BSDFAMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Fire Assault Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|SpinShot}}
[[File:BStoy-SpinShotMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|At least, we think it's a car.]]
*'''Megatron''' (2013)
**''Series'': '''2'''
**''Number'': '''B008'''
***''Fist strength'': '''725'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''220'''
***''Sword strength'': '''675'''

:Part of the third wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 2 single-packs, this new-mold Megatron transforms into a vaguely-animalistic black-and-silver car with wings, and with a robot mode that's also inspired by ''Prime'' Megatron. As a Spin Shot, one manually winds up his upper body beforehand when transforming him into vehicle mode, where striking the front of the vehicle will cause him to burst open and spin while auto-transforming.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Decepticon/BSSSMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Spin Shot Megatron at TFU.info]''

{{--}}

==BeCool==
[[File:BeCool TankLorry.jpg|thumb|300px|]]
*'''Tank Lorry (Megatron)''' (2013)
**''ID number'': '''B18'''

:''[[Bot Shots (toyline)#BeCool|BeCool]]'' "Tank Lorry" is a redeco of the ''Bot Shots'' truck Megatron mold in orange with metallic silver paint on his head, chest, windshield and tanker section. Instead of game stats, the stickers in his chest spinner feature drawings of his vehicle mode, a gas pump and the [[wikipedia:kanji|kanji]] for "danger" (危).

{{-}}{{anchor|HyperTank}}

*'''Hyper Tank and Hyper Tank Base (Megatron)''' (2013)
**''ID number'': '''BS04'''

:"Hyper Tank" is a redeco of the tank Megatron mold in bright green that comes with the Hyper Tank Base, a dark green and bronze redeco of the Megatron Launcher. His chest stickers now display pictures of the launcher in base mode, Megatron pulling it in trailer mode, and a compass, and he also comes with an additional sticker sheet for decorating the trailer.

==EZ Collection Gum==
[[File:EZ-colle-gum-G2-Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|I have been mistransformed? STARSCREAM!!]]
{{anchor|EZCollectionGum}}
*'''Megatron''' (EZ Collection Gum, 2012)
**''Release Date: [[July 30|7-30-]][[2012]]
**''ID Number'': '''4'''

:Part of the new EZ Collection Gum made by TakaraTomy A.R.T.S., This Megatron is a metallic redeco of the Universe Legends Class Megatron toy. While the purple plastic is painted with metallic purple, the paint applications are identical to the [[Megatron_(G1)/toys#Chronicle|Chronicle toy]]. As per the toyline's name, he comes with a yellow candy-shelled piece of lemony-flavored gum.

:His alt mode stock photo is mistransformed: the arms are not folded up to his tank turret.

{{-}}

==GT==
*'''GT-R Megatron''' ([[July 27|7-27]]-[[2013]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''GT-03'''
**''Accessories:'' "EX. Cannon", [[Noa]] race queen figure

: ''[[Transformers GT: Mission GT-R (franchise)|Transformers GT]]'' GT-R Megatron is a heavy retool of the ''[[Transformers: Alternity|Alternity]]'' [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Alternity|Convoy]] toy, transforming into a 1:32 scale replica of the S Road REITO MOLA GT-R race car used by [http://www.mola-international.co.jp/mola.cgi?field=%E3%83%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9D%E3%83%BC%E3%83%84%3C%3E%E3%83%81%E3%83%BC%E3%83%A0%E4%BD%93%E5%88%B6 MOLA] in the [[wikipedia:Super GT|Super GT]] racing championship series. He features die-cast metal parts, an opening hood, trunk and doors, as well as an interior, complete with his feet and thighs being sculpted to form the back seats. His armaments include flip-out non-firing blasters on his arms as well as a handheld gun called the EX. Cannon, a weapon designed to resemble the fire extinguishers used at races. Like all ''GT'' toys, Megatron also comes with a [[GT Sister]], a poseable human figure themed after a [[wikipedia:race queen|race queen]], his partner being a lady named Noa.

: This mold was also used, with different heads and accessories, to make the other ''Transformers GT'' toys: [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#GT|GT-R Prime]], [[Star Saber (Victory)#GT|GT-R Saber]] and [[Fortress Maximus (G1)#GT|GT-R Maximus]].
{{-}}

==Nike==
[[File:NikeMegatronRises.jpg|thumb|right|upright=1.95]]
*'''Calvin Johnson Megatron''' (2013)
**''Accessories'': 2 wings (combine to form fusion cannon), football
:Calvin Johnson Megatron was available with the purchase of {{w|Nike, Inc.|Nike}}'s CJ81 Megatron Trainer Max, inspired by American football player {{w|Calvin Johnson}}, who is nicknamed after the Decepticon leader. A redeco of his ''Generations Thrilling 30'' Deluxe Class toy, Megatron transforms from robot to stealth bomber, with his wings detaching to form a fusion cannon in robot mode. He features Johnson's signature printed on his chest, and also includes an American football accessory redecoed from the one included with Red Dog in the 2011 ''[[G.I. Joe (franchise)|G.I. Joe]]'' "Slaughter's Marauders Battle Set".{{-}}

*'''Megatron Rises 3-Pack''' (2013)
**''Accessories'': 2 wings (combine to form fusion cannon), football
:The Calvin Johnson Megatron figure was also available in the "Megatron Rising 3-Pack", which includes three pairs of Megatron-themed shoes: the Nike CJ81 Megatron Trainer Max, the Megatron Nike Air Trainer SC II, and the Nike CJ81 Megatron Elite TD Cleat, the last of which is exclusive to the pack. The pack was limited to 81 pieces, in reference to Johnson's shirt number, and available only from Nike's 21 Mercer Street store in [[New York City]], select Nike Yardline stores, and Nike.com.{{-}}

==Construct-Bots==
[[File:Megatron Construct-Bots.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
* '''Megatron''' (Elite Class, 2013)
: Megatron transforms into a wheeled tank-like vehicle. He includes the same parts as the Ultimate Class figure however his armor is translucent purple plastic and he features numerous paint differences. He includes giant red swords, blasters, and a projectile-launching gun.
{{-}}

[[File:ConstructBots 2pack Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
* '''Optimus Prime vs Megatron''' (Ultimate Class, 2013)
: Megatron's Elite Class toy was packed alongside his eternal nemesis [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Construct-Bots|Optimus Prime]]. This version is identicle to his Elite-Class single release, but this version features a more Generation 1-based paint scheme. He retains the gimmickry of the Elite-Class version but also includes a myriad of extra parts include enough parts to switch his alternate form from a tank to a jet if one were so inclined.
{{-}}

==Hero Mashers==
[[File:HeroMashers_Megatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|I will destroy Optimus Prime! Then use his arm as a back scratcher!]]

* '''Megatron''' (Battle Upgrade, 2014)
**''Pieces: '''14'''
: Part of the first wave of battle upgrade Hero Mashers toys, Megatron is a non-transforming robot who is chock full of weaponry. He includes an Energon flail, a ''massive'' projectile launching fusion cannon, and a backpack with removable missile packs. His parts can be removed and swapped out with any other Hero Mashers toy.

:He also includes [[Skywarp (G1)/toys#Hero Mashers|Skywarp]]'s arm which is a repaint of [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Hero Mashers|Starscream]]'s.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2014/Decepticon/HMMegatron/megatron.htm More information on Megatron at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Cloud==
[[File:Cloud Megatron Toy.jpg|right|thumb|300px]]
*'''Megatron''' ([[May 29|5-29]]-2014)
**''ID number:'' '''TFC-D01'''
**''Accessories:'' "Fusion Blade" sword, "Deception Sword" dagger

: Megatron is a silver, red and black [[redeco]] of ''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' Voyager Class [[Megatron (G1)/toys#GenerationsVoyager|Megatron]], itself a [[retool]] of ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen (toyline)|Revenge of the Fallen:]] [[N.E.S.T. Global Alliance]]'' Voyager Class [[Bludgeon (ROTF)#Voyager|Bludgeon]] with a new head. He transforms from a Japanese [[Wikipedia:Type 90 Kyū-maru|Type 90]] tank into a samurai-esque robot mode and features a flexible plastic sword which is made out of a portion of the barrel of the tank's main gun, as well as a smaller dagger. The dagger can be stored in a sheath which is revealed from inside the tank turret, and both blades can be slotted in holes provided on the robot mode's left hip guard. Additionally, the dagger's handle can fit in the base of the sword's handle, forming a double-bladed weapon. He has [[Mech Alive]] [[gimmick]]s in his thighs and turret: sculpted cylinders in his thighs rotate whenever his lower legs are rotated, and pulling his turret open makes a sculpted white "disc" at the center rotate while a scabbard for the dagger hinges over to the side and props itself up for use.

: The vehicle mode is one of the very few Transformer tank toys with rubber components to its treads. Portions of the tread links can unlock, allowing them to hang from the robot mode, while the wheels of the treads are integrated separately into the robot mode form itself. The treads still do not function realistically; small plastic wheels on the underside of the treads help the tank mode roll, as is standard with nearly all Transformer tank toys.

: Megatron was available exclusively through [[e-HOBBY]].

: The original version of this mold was redecoed into ''Transformers: [[Hunt for the Decepticons]]'' [[Banzaitron]], and it was differently retooled to make ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]'' [[Overlord (Masterforce)#Timelines|Gigatron]].

==EZ Collection==
{{anchor|EG06}}
[[File:EZ-Collection-EG-06-Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Megatron''' (EZ Collection, 2014)
**''Release Date'':[[April 27|4-27-]][[2014]]
**''Japanese ID Number'': '''EG-06'''

:Another [[redeco]] of the [[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]] [[Legends Class]] Megatron, This individual carded release of EZ Collection Megatron features gray plastic with purple-painted hands. His stock photography retains the G2 Decepticon symbol, though the toy proper has original Decepticon symbols.

{{-}}

==Bearbrick==
[[File:Bearbrick Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|I'm an ''intensive'' care bear.]]
*'''Megatron''' ([[July 17|7-17]]-[[2014]])

: A special edition [[Bearbrick]] released in celebration of the ''Transformers'' 30th anniversary, Megatron transforms from a Bearbrick painted up like Megatron to a bear-eared robot. He has no accessories, but holes in his robot mode hands can accommodate other toys' weapons.

: This mold, with a different head sculpt, was also used for the simultaneously released Bearbrick [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Bearbrick|G1 Optimus Prime]] and later released [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Bearbrick|''Age of Extinction'' Optimus Prime]], and was further retooled into [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#Bearbrick|Bumblebee]] and [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Bearbrick|Starscream]].
{{-}}

==Transformers (2014)==
[[File:Transformers-2014-Legion-Class-Megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Megatron''' (Legion Class, 2014)
:Another re-release of the ''Universe'' Legends Class Megatron sculpt, this time with a slightly lighter shade of green and darker shade of purple camouflage patterns from its previous iterations. Bizarrely, the [[package art]] is taken from the ''Generations'' Legends Class Megatron/Chop Shop two-pack's packaging and half-heartedly recolored to match the actual toy's deco. It still features ''Generations'' Megatron's black and yellow safety stripes.

:In the United States, Megatron has thus far been found at Big Lots and Family Dollar stores. In Australia, he is available at general retail again, just the previous [[wave]] of Legion Class figures; whereas in Europe, the wave that contains Megatron in other markets is available at general retail, but lacking Megatron for unknown reasons.

{{-}}

==Mega Drive Megatron==
[[File:MegaDriveMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|SEEEEEGAAAAA]]
*'''16-Bit Mega Drive Megatron''' (2014)
**''Accessories:'' Cannon, gamepad, game cartridge

: Released under the "TakaraTomy Arts" banner alongside a [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Optimus Prime featuring Original PlayStation|Sony PlayStation version of Optimus Prime]] and outside of any other toyline, Mega Drive Megatron transforms from robot to a scaled-down Japanese [[Sega]] [[wikipedia:Sega Genesis|Mega Drive]] video game console - which ironically is about the size of a real-life Mega Drive cartridge. He comes with a gamepad that features pushable buttons which splits in two and attaches to his back like a pair of wings, while the left side of the console detaches and transforms into an arm-mounted cannon attached to his back via the gamepad's cord. He also includes a cartridge depicting the Japanese release of ''[[wikipedia:Sonic the Hedgehog (1991 video game)|Sonic the Hedgehog]]'' that slots into the console/his chest.

: This figure includes what is most likely the smallest accessory to ever be included with a Transformers toy; a small cap that covers the hole left if one does not insert the gamepad into the console mode. The piece is sculpted to resemble an open slot for a gamepad and is a teensy bit ''smaller'' than a grain of rice.

{{-}}
[[File:SegaGenesisMegatron.jpg|thumb|right|300px|]]
*'''Sega Genesis Megatron''' (2015)
**''Accessories:'' Cannon, gamepad, game cartridge

: Sega Genesis Megatron is a redeco and slight retool of Mega Drive Megatron in the form of its North American release, the Sega Genesis. In addition to the changes to the console, the red on Megatron's robot mode has been replaced with purple, and the art on the ''Sonic'' cartridge has been changed to match its American release. Even the packaging is changed to evoke Genesis packaging, right down to featuring (awkwardly translated) English text on the back. This version of Megatron is a TakaraTomy Arts online store exclusive.

: Curiously, the promotional pictures of Sega Genesis Megatron appear to show the retooled "16-Bit" panel molded to read "1'''5'''-Bit", but the final release has it correctly molded.

{{-}}
[[File:MegaDriveMegatronGold.jpg|thumb|right|300px|]]
*'''Mega Drive Megatron Gold Ver.''' (2015)
**''Accessories:'' Cannon, gamepad, game cartridge

: A [[Lucky Draw figure|Lucky Draw]] gold chrome redeco of Mega Drive Megatron was one of the prizes in a lottery open to those who purchased the ''{{w|Sega 3D Fukkoku Archives}}'' [[Nintendo DS|Nintendo 3DS]] game. For this release the cartridge art was changed to that of ''Bare Knuckle'', the Japanese release of ''[[wikipedia:Streets of Rage|Streets of Rage]]'' and one of the games included in ''Sega 3D Fukkoku Archives''. The lottery was open from December 18, 2014 to January 31, 2015, with only 5 golden Megatrons up for grabs.

{{-}}

==Q-Transformers==
[[File:QTransformers Megatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Megatron''' ([[April 25|4-25]]-2015)
**''ID number:'' '''QT-20'''

:''[[Q-Transformers]]'' Megatron is a small [[super deformed]] toy that transforms from Lamborghini Veneno to robot. He comes with a code for unlocking Megatron as a playable character in the ''[[Q-Transformers: Mystery of Convoy Returns (mobile game)|Q-Transformers: Mystery of Convoy Returns]]'' game.

{{-}}
[[File:QTransformers BlackMegatron.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Black Megatron''' ([[November 14|11-14]]-2015)
**''ID number:'' '''QT-32'''

:Released appropriately alongside [[Nemesis Prime (G1)#Q-Transformers|Black Convoy]], Black Megatron is a redeco of the previous toy in darker colors with red highlights in new places, blue windows and a Lamborghini logo in place of his Decepticon insignia.

{{-}}
*'''Decepticons 3-Figure Set''' (2016)
**''ID number:'' '''QTFS-02'''

:During the second ''Q-Transformers'' series, the Megatron toy was available in a three-pack alongside [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#Q-Transformers|Soundwave]] and [[Shockwave (G1)/toys#Q-Transformers|Shockwave]]. He is identical to the original ''Q-Transformers'' toy.

{{comingsoontoy}}

==Legends==
{{anchor|LG13}}
[[File:Tf-legends-lg-13-megatron.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Megatron''' ([[May 30|5-30]]-2015)
**''ID number'': '''LG13'''
**''Accessories'': 2 guns (combine to form rifle), fusion cannon
:''[[Transformers Legends (franchise)|Legends]]'' Megatron is a redeco of the Leader Class Megatron toy, replacing some red plastic joints with grey. He comes with a leaflet featuring a character profile, tech specs and [[Legends Comic: Bonus Edition Vol. 13|volume 13]] of the ''[[Transformers Legends (comic)|Transformers Legends Comic: Bonus Edition]]'' mini-comic.

{{-}}

==Platinum Edition==
*'''One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall''' (2-pack, 2016)

: Released as part of the ''Platinum Edition'' 2-pack with Optimus Prime, this Megatron figure is another redeco of the ''Classics'' toy. Megatron features deco differences for the sake of the [[for safety reasons|gun laws]]: His transparent plastic gun shells is entirely casted in clear red plastics, while several red paint applications were decked to his legs, and his arms were molded with red plastic, plus the bright orange parts on both the tip of the barrel and the scope, just like the ''Classics'' figure.

: The original mold was also redecoed as [[Megatron_(G1)/toys#Henkei.21_Henkei.21|''Henkei! Henkei!'' Megatron]] and [[Megatron_(G1)/toys#United|''United'' Megatron]].

{{comingsoontoy}}

==Notes==
[[File:MicroChangeGunRoboWalther.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb|[[Megaplex (MW)|Megaplex]] Black Version?]]
[[File:Skywarpatron.jpg|upright=0.85|thumb|Skywarp really DID need close supervision.]]
[[File:UnmadeVideoCameraMegatron.jpg|thumb|upright=0.85]]
* To date, an exact copy of the black ''[[Microman]]'' ''[[Micro Change]]'' Walther P-38 toy has not been reissued as a Transformer - the e-HOBBY version replaced the blue plastic with red and some of the black plastic parts with silver chrome.
* It seems that no one could get Megatron's [[package art]] right in Japan. His standard release used edited box art from the standard Microchange P-38 toy's black deco, recolored to Megatron's US toy color scheme with shiny "chrome" and red on his legs and arms instead of the Japanese toy's flat gray and blue. The VS-X art replaced the red with blue, but kept the "chrome". The art on the "Goodbye Megatron" set used edited US box art (which in turn was the Microchange P-38 UNCLE art with an added sigil) that replaced the red with blue, yet this toy used red plastic.
* In a possible fit of madness, a triple changer was proposed that would switch between [[Skywarp (G1)/toys|Skywarp]] (possibly mistaken for Starscream), Megatron, and Skywarp's jet mode.
* In a slightly more sane attempt, [[:File:Megalvatron.jpg|another triple changer]] was proposed which would switch between Megatron, a very awkward [[Galvatron (G1)/toys|Galvatron]], and a Walther P-38 handgun with a futuristic silencer and laser sight.
* A kitbashed/hand-painted mock-up of the large ''Generation 2'' tank Megatron mold as a video camcorder is known to exist. Whether it was ever meant to be taken into production and whether it was meant to be Megatron or a new character is unknown. It was originally offered for sale in [http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/browse_thread/thread/4f98fe3d58bfe696/b1d0163d38587281?q=ramjet+whiz+bang+toys&pli=1 October of 2000] from Whiz Bang Collectibles, along with other items seemingly from a former Hasbro employee's collection.<ref>[http://www.toyarchive.com/Transformers/Prototypes/Generation2/MegatronVideoCameraMock1.html Megatron Video Camera at Toyarchive.com]</ref>

{{-}}

==Footnotes==
<references />

==External links==
* [http://tfu.info/1984/Decepticon/Megatron/megatron.htm Megatron at TFU.info]
*[http://www.transformertoys.co.uk/content.php?/transformers-toys/toy-gallery/1783/Generation+2/Megatron+ATB.html Gallery of ATB Megatron with comparison to BB at Transformers At the Moon]
* [http://www.theunclegun.com/ Unclegun.com - The Walther P-38 as seen in The Man from U.N.C.L.E.]
*[http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=ngAuAAAAEBAJ Megatrons patent]

[[Category:Action Masters]]
[[Category:Alternity Decepticons]]
[[Category:Bot Shots Decepticons]]
[[Category:Classics Decepticons]]
[[Category:Cloud Decepticons]]
[[Category:Combiner Wars]]
[[Category:Construct-Bots Decepticons]]
[[Category:Convention exclusives]]
[[Category:Generation 1 Decepticons]]
[[Category:Generation 2 Decepticons]]
[[Category:Generations]]
[[Category:Generation 2 Go-Bots]]
[[Category:GT characters]]
[[Category:Henkei! Henkei! Decepticons]]
[[Category:Hero Mashers Decepticons]]
[[Category:Legends franchise]]
[[Category:Platinum Edition]]
[[Category:Machine Wars Decepticons]]
[[Category:Masterpiece]]
[[Category:Q-Transformers characters]]
[[Category:Robotmasters Decepticons]]
[[Category:SDCC exclusives]]
[[Category:Titanium Series]]
[[Category:Transformers (2010) Decepticons]]
[[Category:Transmetals]]
[[Category:United Decepticons]]
[[Category:Universe (2008)]]

Optimus Prime (G1)/toys

2016-03-13T16:07:28Z

Zackmak: /* Generation 1 */

{{suite}}
[[File:G1 OptimusPrime boxart.jpg|thumb|upright=1.95|Awwwwww yeah......]]
Since 1984, [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Generation 1 '''Optimus Prime''']] has received the largest number of toys for any single ''[[Transformers brand|Transformers]]'' character, a testament to the character's enduring popularity and status as a hero to many fans.

==Generation 1==
{{anchor|G1v1}}
[[File:G1 OptimusPrime toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|From the ''Diaclone'' Battle Convoy came Optimus Prime and all his subsequent incarnations.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (1984, 1985, 1986)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), [[Trailer]]/[[Combat Deck (G1)|Combat Deck]], [[Roller (G1)|Roller]], 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

: The original Optimus Prime toy started life as the ''[[Diaclone]]'' toy, "Battle Convoy", created by a team of [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] designers who came on board when the original designer fell behind. This team included [[Hiroyuki Obara]] (listed as the sole creator on the toy's patent) and famed mecha designer [[Shōji Kawamori]]. The toy transforms into two major components; the first component being a red and blue post-1973 White Freightliner 96-inch cab WFT cab over engine semi-trailer truck partially composed of [[die-cast]] metal, and the second component being a large silver trailer of currently-undetermined model.

:The cab transforms into the [[robot mode]] of Optimus Prime himself, with the addition of a pair of removable blue fists that plug into his headlights. The fists themselves do not store anywhere in vehicle mode, but can fit easily in Prime's opening chest compartment (originally designed to accommodate two ''Diaclone'' driver figures). Prime is armed with a black laser rifle that, due to design, he cannot hold straight.

:Prime's trailer opens up into his [[Combat Deck (G1)|Combat Deck]], containing the scout drone, [[Roller (G1)|Roller]]. The interior of the Combat Deck features three pegs that can accommodate Prime's laser rifle, fuel pump and nozzle accessories, and seating for two ''Diaclone'' drivers. As its central feature, the Combat Deck features a missile-armed repair drone pod mounted upon a boom lift arm (featuring another cockpit for a ''Diaclone'' driver), which can also be extended through holes in the trailer's roof and front-end when it is closed. Situated in the base of the boom arm is a spring-loaded launcher that can launch Roller out of the Combat Deck and into action. Roller himself has seating for four ''Diaclone'' passengers, and features a port that can accommodate either Prime's rifle or the fuel pump. The interior space of the trailer allows storage room for one standard Autobot car, which can also be shot forward by the launcher.

[[File:G1toy optimus prime variants and running changes.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Most people would be happy with just ''one'' Optimus Prime, but noooooo...]]

:Optimus Prime was subject to several molding and color variations in his early days. The earliest release of the figure featured larger fists, a gun with a thick, round barrel, a slightly-differently shaped gas pump, grey rockets, a grey Roller, a grey launcher in his Combat Deck, and metal plates in the floor of the Combat Deck (a holdover from the ''Diaclone'' version of the toy, to which the magnetic feet of the pilots could cling). In short order, his fists were slimmed down, the gun's barrel was pared down to a more slender form, the gas pump's shape was altered, the rockets and launcher were recast in black plastic, the metal plates were removed from the Combat Deck, and Roller's color was changed to a light blue. Along with Roller's color change, however, the Combat Deck's drone pod also became light blue, and a third running change soon followed that saw it restored to its original darker blue, and Roller changed along with it. These modified components would become the default accessories used by subsequent reissues of the Prime toy would take, though Roller stills fluctuates back and forth between grey and dark blue, depending on how [[show-accuracy|show-accurate]] each reissue wants to be.

:The Japanese release of the figure also underwent the changes in weapon shapes, but never featured a silver Roller; instead, their original release of Prime featured a ''Diaclone''-style Roller without the two rear pegs, and the differently-shaped launcher that accommodated him, before a running change switched over to the Hasbro version of the mold. Finally, in some European countries, Prime sported red feet, as opposed to his traditional blue; this version of the figure is also known in some cases to feature a differently-painted forehead crest which leaves the three central indentations unpainted blue.

:Having been removed from toy store shelves after 1985, Optimus Prime was made available as a mail-away toy in the "[[Digital Doom on the Highway to Destruction (G1)|Digital Doom on the Highway to Destruction]]" offer in the US in 1986 to coincide with the [[The Transformers: The Movie|Transformers movie]] premiering that year. He cost $21.50 and 5 [[Robot Point]]s. He was also offered in 'The Autobots Have A Special Mission For...' mail-away pamphlet and came with a special "Movie Edition Certificate" and a round sticker that read " Movie . Edition . Transformer" with the Autobot symbol in the middle. (This item is considered ''rare''.)

:Over twenty-plus years, there have been a ''bajillion'' releases of this mold, some identical to the original toy, and some featuring significant variants with notably different paint jobs, color schemes, accessories and other pack-ins. We have striven to list all these variants on this page under their respective series; for a quick-reference list of all variants and releases [[#Notes|check here]]. The cab robot has also been used sparingly to represent different characters; outfitted with different trailers, it has become Generation 1 [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]] and [[Pepsi Convoy]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Generation 1 Optimus Prime at TFU.info]

{{-}}{{anchor|PepsiPrime}}
[[File:G1-toy OptimusPepsi.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Pespibots, roll out!]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Limited edition promotional variant, 1985)
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (dark blue), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:A limited edition of the Optimus Prime toy sold as a mail-away exclusive by [[PepsiCo]] was made available in North America in 1985. This version of the figure came with a small fold-out leaflet glued to the top-right of the packaging, which contained two Pepsi logo stickers for the buyer to attach to Prime, mid-way through the traditional silver-and-blue stripe on his trailer. [[Canada]] also got a version of this promotional figure, but with much larger stickers that were the full length and height of the trailer. This promotion would go on to serve as the inspiration for the Japanese character of [[Pepsi Convoy]], who would in turn be released by Hasbro as a new "[[#Classics|Pepsi Optimus Prime]]" in 2007.
{{-}}{{anchor|VSX}}
[[File:Convoy megatron vsx.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Megatron, what are we doing in the same box???!!!!]]
*'''Convoy vs. Megatron''' (Versus set, 1985)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''VSX'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller, 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

: This Japanese-[[exclusive]] release of Optimus Prime came with the Japanese release of [[Megatron (G1)/toys|Megatron]]. There are no differences between this release of Convoy and the individually released toy.

{{-}}{{anchor|goodbye}}
[[File:Goodbye convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|He's not leaving! He's right behind you!]]
*'''Good Bye Convoy''' (Multipack, 1986)
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (dark blue), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump
: Commemorating the death of Optimus Prime in ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'', this set contains a special version of the original Optimus Prime figure with show-inspired translucent blue windows. It was packaged with [[Mirage (G1)|Ligier]] and [[Red Alert (G1)|Alert]], in an apparent homage to the similar ''Diaclone'' "Powered Convoy DX" giftset that packaged the "Powered Convoy" version of the Optimus mold with figures using the molds of Ligier and Alert.

{{-}}{{anchor|PMOP}}
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Powermaster, 1988)
**''Accessories:'' Hi-Q Powermaster unit, 2 Laser Rifles, 2 Twin Particle Beam Cannons, Super Robot head
[[File:PowermasterOptimusPrime toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|My Japanese release has a lot more bling.]]
:Powermaster Optimus Prime was the first new toy of the Autobot leader since the original toy's release in 1984. He is an all-new design, utilizing the [[Powermaster]] gimmick of requiring the partner figure, who transforms into an engine module, to be inserted into a special area on the main toy before it is able to transform.

:Like the original figure, Powermaster Prime is composed of two major components: his truck cab, which transforms into Prime himself, and his trailer, which is essentially a heavily-armed version of the original. The trailer has a fold-down ramp to allow the storage of a smaller Transformer, or perhaps spare accessories. The trailer transforms into a battle station armed with two long black rifles and two grey double-barreled cannons (featuring seating for Powermaster engine figures), all of which Optimus Prime can also wield in his fists.

:Aside from the Powermaster feature itself, the main [[gimmick]] of the toy is the ability of the truck cab to combine with the trailer to form the larger "Super Optimus Prime" figure. This is essentially accomplished by standing the trailer up, folding the cab in half and inserting it into the empty cavity in the trailer's torso, forming an imposing—if almost entirely unposeable—robot form armed with all four weapons. The head of this super robot form is a separate piece which can be stored in the rear of Prime's trailer when not in use. While Hi-Q was always shown plugged into Prime's chest in artwork of this mode (as seen in the picture here), this was actually entirely unnecessary as transforming into Super Optimus Prime didn't require the standard Prime toy's legs to be unlocked.

:The Japanese release of Powermaster Optimus Prime actually represented a new character named [[Ginrai]], and featured several retools: the cab featured die-cast metal, shortened smokestacks, vacuum-metalized plastic and clear blue windows, while the trailer was given retractable super robot fists. This Japanese version was eventually issued by Hasbro in 2003 as part of the [[The Transformers: Generation One Commemorative Series|Commemorative Series]] collection ([[#Commemorative Series|see below]]).

:This toy was later redecoed into the Japanese-exclusive Nucleon Quest Super Convoy.

:There were several different prototypes made for this toy. [[#Powermaster Optimus Prime design history|See a list here]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1988/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optmiusprime.htm More information on Powermaster Optimus Prime on TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|AM}}
[[File:ActionMasterPrime toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Eastbound and Down.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Action Master, 1990)
**''Accessories:'' 2 Laser Guns, Galactic Pulverizer Gun Barrels, 4 Blaster Cannons, 2 Energon Exhaust Stack, Photon Bazooka

: The largest ''[[Action Master]]'' set, this incarnation of Optimus Prime is a non-transforming action figure which comes with the "[[Armored Convoy]]", a large, heavily armed tractor trailer. The cab of the truck transforms into a small jet that can seat one Action Master figure, while the trailer itself converts into a larger battle station with turrets that several Action Masters can man. The sculpt of the Prime figure itself is closely based on his [[character model]], albeit with a coloration that seems to have been based at least partially on the small robot form of his Powermaster body.

:The Action Master Optimus Prime figure was later redecoed with a more [[Show-accuracy|show-accurate]] color scheme and included in the Japanese-exclusive "New Year" reissue of the original Optimus Prime toy in 2002.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1990/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Action Master Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}[[File:Euro classics optimus.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Original Optimus Prime''' (Original Autobot Leader, 1990)
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (dark blue), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:This straight reissue of the original Optimus Prime figure was released in Hasbro's European markets in the early 1990s, at the same time as many other Generation 1 figures were being re-released as "[[Classics (Europe)|Classics]]". Oddly, although he shares their golden packaging, Prime is not actually ''identified'' as a "Classics" figure anywhere on his box, but is generally considered to be part of the sub-line for simplicity's sake.
{{-}}
*'''Convoy''' (reissue, 2000)[[File:2000 japanese prime reissue.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (grey), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:The first in what would be a deluge of reissues of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime figure in the 21st century, this Japanese release sported a golden sticker on his packaging announcing the celebration of the Transformers' 15th anniversary in the country. It featured slightly modified fists to help hold the gun better.

:Simultaneously, this figure was available as a black convention-exclusive redeco, and a golden-chromed "[[Lucky Draw figure]]" (see below).
{{-}}{{anchor|JAFCON}}
[[File:Jafcon convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Not the first [[Black Lio Convoy|black Convoy]], but the first that wasn't an evil clone.]]
*'''Convoy Black Version''' (2000)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (black), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:Released concurrently with the 2000 reissue of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime toy, this [[black repaint|black redeco]] of the original Prime was available exclusively at the Japanese convention JAFCON. ''Everything'' about it is black, including all of the Combat Deck and Roller.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2000/Cybertron/JAFConvoy/jafconvoy.htm More information on JAFCON Black Convoy at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|LuckyDrawPrime}}
[[File:G1toy convoy gold version.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Prime's a gold digger/way over Cybertron.]]
*'''Convoy Gold Version''' (2000)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (gold), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:Released concurrently with the 2000 reissue of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime toy, this "[[Lucky Draw figure|Lucky Draw]]" redeco of the original Prime replaced all of the figure's silver chromed parts and stickers with golden ones, and even included a blinged-out Roller. The figure is extremely rare; apparently only 25 are known to exist.
{{-}}{{anchor|NucleonQuest}}
[[File:Nucleon quest convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Epic Black repaints are the right of all toy collecting beings]]
*'''Nucleon Quest Super Convoy''' (2001)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-307X'''
**''Accessories:'' Hi-Q Powermaster unit, 2 Laser Rifles, 2 Twin Particle Beam Cannons, Super Robot head

:This redeco of the Ginrai tooling of the Powermaster Optimus Prime figure (released concurrently with the 2001 reissue of the Ginrai figure) was a Toys ''R'' Us Japan [[exclusive]] black repaint, made to represent the original Optimus Prime equipped for a special mission. All of his red and blue plastics were changed to black, his clear blue windows were now tinted red, making his overall colour scheme very reminiscent of the now-familiar 'Black Convoy' color schemes.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2001/Autobot/NucleonQuestConvoy/nqconvoy.htm More information on Nucleon Quest Super Convoy at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|NewYearConvoy}}
*'''New Year Special Convoy''' (2002)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''01'''[[File:New year convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
**''Accessories:'' 2 Laser Blasters, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (dark blue), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump, Action Master Optimus Prime figure, [[Matrix of Leadership/toys|Matrix of Leadership]], chain, Autobot sticker sheet, mouse pad

:This Japanese-exclusive reissue of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime figure featured tinted blue windows, like those sported by the "Goodbye Convoy" edition of the toy, as well as show-accurate blue eyes. Prime came with all his original accessories, including ''both'' versions of his rifle, as well as a new die-cast metal Matrix of Leadership accessory, which could be looped around his neck on a removable chain. Additionally, the set included a show-accurate redeco of the Action Master Optimus Prime figure, a sheet of Autobot [[insignia]] stickers of varying sizes, and a mouse pad decorated with the Autobot symbol.

:The Matrix accessory was later recolored in gold chrome for inclusion with the 2005 [[Galvatron (G1)/toys|Galvatron reissue toy]], and in green chrome as the [[Matrix of Leadership/toys|Creation Matrix]] for the [[e-HOBBY]]-exclusive [[Galvatron II#Toys|Galvatron II]] toy. It returned to its original silver coloration when it was included, sans chain, in the 2010 ''[[Transformers (2010 toyline)|Transformers: Reveal the Shield]]'' "Battle in Space" 2-pack.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2002/Cybertron/NewYearsConvoy/nyconvoy.htm More information on New Year Special Convoy at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|Sons of Cybertron}}
[[File:G1toy sons of cybertron optimus prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Sons of Cybertron''' (2010)
**''Accessories:'' Machine gun turret/rifle

:Released as part of [[TakaraTomy]]'s "Welcome to Transformers 2010" campaign, the "Sons of Cybertron" set includes a redeco of the 2006 ''[[Transformers: Classics|Classics]]'' "Ultimate Battle" pack Deluxe class [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Optimus Prime]], cast mostly in translucent plastic (his shoulders remain opaque [[Unpaintable plastic|Polyoxymethylene (POM)]]). He comes packaged with a similarly translucent redeco of ''Classics'' [[Hot Rod/toys#Classics (2006)|Rodimus]].

:The set is a counterpart to TakaraTomy's simultaneously-available ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Transformers Animated]]'' Sons of Cybertron set, which also features translucent versions of that line's Deluxe [[Optimus Prime (Animated)/toys|Optimus Prime]] and [[Rodimus Prime (Animated)|Rodimus]] figures. It was intended as an exclusive for the Japanese Chara Hobby 2010 festival, but was also initially offered as a raffle prize at the 2010 "Autobot Alliance" event in the Philippines.,<ref>[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/classics-11/sons-of-cybertron-crystal-classics-optimus-prime-and-rodimus-set-images-169977/ TFW2005.com reports on the Philippines Autobot Alliance/Cybertron Con event. June 18, 2010]</ref> and was later available for purchase at [[Cybertron Con 2010]] in [[Shanghai]].
{{-}}

{{anchor|bape}}
[[File:G1toy BAPE convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|[[Trukk not munky|TRUKK...''AND'' MUNKY?]]]]
*'''Convoy Reissue BAPE Ver.''' (A Bathing Ape exclusive, 2011)
**''ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), Trailer/Combat Deck, Roller, 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:Available exclusively from Japanese clothing company [[A Bathing Ape]] in July 2011, concurrently with a range of exclusive Transformers t-shirts, "Convoy Reissue BAPE Ver." (コンボイ復刻版 BAPE® Ver.) is a redeco of the original Optimus Prime toy sporting a unique new green color scheme, along with a tan trailer decorated with a camouflage pattern. Both trailer and Prime himself feature the A Bathing Ape logo in place of an Autobot symbol, while the floor of the trailer's Combat Deck mode features new Bathing Ape-themed labels. The figure comes in a recolored version of the original Japanese Optimus Prime packaging.
::*''[http://bape.com/transformer Convoy Reissue BAPE Ver. on BAPE.com]''
{{-}}

{{anchor|bapeblack}}
[[File:G1toy BAPE ConvoyBlack.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Prime at his audition for ''The Artist''.]]
*'''Convoy Reissue BAPE Ver. BLACK'''<ref>Or "Ver. Black Camo," in ''[[Transformers Generations 2012]]''.</ref> (A Bathing Ape exclusive, 2012)
**''ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), Trailer/Combat Deck, Roller, 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:Available exclusively from Japanese clothing company [[A Bathing Ape]] in April 2012, "Convoy Reissue BAPE Ver. BLACK" (コンボイ復刻版 BAPE® Ver. BLACK) is a redeco of the original Optimus Prime toy sporting a unique new grey color scheme, along with a grey trailer decorated with a camouflage pattern. Both trailer and Prime himself feature the A Bathing Ape logo in place of an Autobot symbol, while the floor of the trailer's Combat Deck mode features new Bathing Ape-themed labels. The figure comes in a recolored version of the original Japanese packaging.
{{-}}

{{anchor|bapered}}
[[File:G1toy BAPE ConvoyRed.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Three times faster than the original BAPE version.]]
*'''Convoy Reissue BAPE VERSION RED CAMO'''<ref>Japanese listing on the BAPE website. The accompanying English text reads "01 CONVOY BAPE VERSION RED CAMO".</ref> (A Bathing Ape exclusive, 2013)
**''ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), Trailer/Combat Deck, Roller, 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:Available exclusively from Japanese clothing company [[A Bathing Ape]] in March 2013, "Convoy Reissue BAPE VERSION RED CAMO" (コンボイ復刻版 BAPE® VERSION RED CAMO) is a redeco of the original Optimus Prime toy sporting a unique new red color scheme, along with a red trailer decorated with a camouflage pattern. Both trailer and Prime himself feature the A Bathing Ape logo in place of an Autobot symbol, while the floor of the trailer's Combat Deck mode features new Bathing Ape-themed labels. The figure comes in a recolored version of the original Japanese packaging.

::*''[http://www.bape.com/transformers_3 Convoy Reissue BAPE VERSION RED CAMO on BAPE.com]''
{{-}}

==Transform Jr==
{{anchor|1985Jnr}}
[[File:Convoy Junior toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Prime's kid brother.]]
*'''Convoy''' (1985)
**''ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' 2 fists (left and right), head, Laser Blaster, cardboard trailer

: As one of the first ''[[Transform Jr]]'' toys, this version of Optimus Prime was released under the early name for the series, ''Transform Gōkin''. As a smaller, simplified version of the original Generation 1 Prime figure intended as a low-cost alternative for younger children, Prime features a similar transformation, with a removable head in addition to fists, but lacks rubber tires and translucent windows. As with most other ''Transform Jr'' figures, he lacked any of his major accessories, coming only with his rifle and a cardboard replacement for his trailer that had to be assembled by the buyer.

{{-}}{{anchor|HeroSet}}
[[File:Transformjr hero set.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|The true Heroes of Cybertron]]
*'''Cybertron Hero Set''' (multipack, 1987)
**''Accessories:'' 2 fists (left and right), head, Laser Blaster, cardboard trailer

:The ''Transform Jr'' version of Prime was re-released a few years later in a "Hero" set alongside the ''Jr'' versions of [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] and [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]].

*'''5 Years of Leaders Set''' (multipack, 1989)
**''Accessories:'' 2 fists (left and right), head, Laser Blaster, cardboard trailer

:Prime was again re-released several years later in a lucky Draw "5 Years of Leaders" set alongside the ''Jr'' versions of Rodimus Convoy, [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]], God Ginrai and Star Saber.

{{-}}

==Return of Convoy==
{{anchor|StarConvoy}}

[[File:StarConvoy toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|"... and that's why you're my Micromaster now, [[Hot Rod|bitch.]]"]]
*'''Star Convoy''' (Powered Master, 1991)
**''ID number:'' '''C-372'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser rifle, [[Micro Trailer]], Microcarrier, small cannon, cannon turret stand, radar, connector, 2 ramps

: As the final new-design Optimus Prime toy from the original Generation 1 era, the Japanese-exclusive Star Convoy was a significant departure from previous versions. This incarnation of Prime transforms into an extended-hood cab truck of made-up model pulling an implausibly large trailer, incorporating the motorized "Microcarrier". Powered by four AA batteries, the Microcarrier drives Star Convoy either forward or backward, spinning a radar dish mounted on the rear of his trailer as he rolls along. Prime's teammate in the [[Battlestars]], [[Grandus (ROC)|Grandus]], can link up to the rear of Star Convoy's vehicle mode and be pulled along behind him; [[Sky Garry (ROC)|Sky Garry]] can then land atop Grandus, forming a giant vehicle.

:Unlike previous Prime toys, the cab section does not separate from the trailer for transformation, instead forming the arms of his imposing 12-inch tall robot mode. He lacks any sort of leg articulation in this mode, but the Microcarrier comes into play again, allowing Prime to roll either forward or backward into action.

:Additionally, Star Convoy transforms into a large battle station that interacts with the [[Micromaster]]s that made up the vast majority of the ''Transformer'' toyline at the time. His chest contains a peg that allows Micromaster figures to stand inside it in either robot or base modes, and he comes with a unique Micromaster version of [[Hot Rod/toys#Return of Convoy|Hot Rod]] not available on its own. He features storage space in his legs for two spring-loaded figure-launching [[Micro Trailer]]s, and comes with one of his own, decorated in a unique black and orange color scheme. In this mode, two ramps are connected to the Microcarrier; when the carrier's treads are set rolling, they do not move the base, but instead act as conveyor belts that carry Micromaster figures down the ramps. The Microcarrier also spins a gun turret mounted between the conveyors, on which Micromaster figures can stand. Finally, a special connector packaged with Star Convoy allows the Microcarrier to be connected up to Grandus's base mode, powering his moving elevator.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1991/Cybertron/StarConvoy/starconvoy.htm More information on Star Convoy at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
{{anchor|StarConvoyReissue}}
[[File:StarConvoy reissue.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Star Convoy''' (reissue, 2005)
**''ID number:'' '''C-372'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser rifle, [[Micro Trailer]], Microcarrier, small cannon, cannon turret stand, radar, connector, 2 ramps

:Star Convoy was reissued by Takara in 2005, with some notable alterations to his deco: his white plastic was replaced with metallic silver, and the yellow star on his chest was chromed golden. Star Convoy himself retained some of his original decals but most notably his "simulated head lights" and "wind shield panels" were stamp graphed on him, similarly, Hot Rod's were replaced with the same stamp graphing applications. Additionally, where the original toy had been packaged in robot mode in a tall box decorated with the standard Japanese package art of the time, the reissue was packaged in vehicle mode, in a long, wide box more reminiscent of the original Generation 1 toys.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Cybertron/StarConvoy/starconvoy.htm More information on reissue Star Convoy at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Generation 2==
*'''Optimus Prime''' (1993, 1994)[[File:G2Prime toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|I AM OPTIMUS PRIME.]]
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (light blue), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump, 2 missile launchers, 2 missiles, sound and lights module

:The first ''Generation 2'' Optimus Prime toy was largely identical in sculpt to the original Generation 1 figure release. While his cab robot retained his original red and blue color scheme, his trailer was recast in black, with the original blue and silver striped sticker replaced with a red and silver one displaying Optimus' name. On the first release of the trailer, the internal components and Roller matched the blue of the cab robot. Later, the internal components were changed to a lighter blue, as was Roller. Another running change followed, making the dark blue of the cab robot match this lighter shade. A bright yellow "Autobot" [[tampograph]] was also added to the back of his right leg.

:''Generation 2'' Optimus Prime comes with all his original accessories, as well as two major new play features. To increase his arsenal, he is armed with a pair of black missile launchers that fit in his fists and fire red spring-loaded missiles; these launchers were retooled from the ''[[G.I. Joe (team)|G.I. Joe]]'' figure [http://www.yojoe.com/action/92/barricade.shtml Barricade]. Secondly, he comes with an electronic "sound and lights module" that can either plug into the front of the trailer (where it resembles the air conditioners used on refrigerated trailers), or hook onto Optimus's back in [[robot mode]] (via a new slot sculpted into the cab robot). The soundbox features a large, [[vacuum metallizing|vacuum metalized]] Autobot symbol on its front, and three grey buttons which trigger two flashing red LEDs on either side of the module, and [[:File:G2OptimusNoises.ogg|a trio of sound effects]]: a truck engine noise, a laser gun sound effect and a garbled voice that said "I am Optimus Prime!". The module also features ports on either side into which the missile launchers can peg.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1993/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Generation 2 Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
{{anchor|HeroOptimusPrime}}
[[File:CombatheroPrime toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|BE A HEEEERO]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Hero, 1994)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''TRF-1'''
**''Accessories:'' Gun, 2 rockets

:[[Hero (G2)|Hero]] Optimus Prime was the first new-mold Optimus Prime toy created for the ''Generation 2'' line. He transforms into a Kenworth truck of unknown model which defies Optimus convention by being one continuous unit, rather than the traditional cab-and-trailer combo. In addition to a small gun, he is armed with a large missile launcher, which can fire a rubber-tipped rocket by means of a bellows which you slam your fist down on to produce a puff of air. The launcher is accessible in both modes, ending up mounted on his right forearm in robot mode; the bellows is attached via a rubber hose and cannot be disconnected, but stores on the figures's back when not in use, as do the rockets. A similar air-launching system with identical missiles was used by the simultaneously-released [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Generation 2|Hero Megatron]], and by Laser Optimus Prime the following year (see below).

: This mold was also used to create [[Sureshot (G2)|Sureshot]] and the [[KB Toys]]-exclusive [[Destructicon (RID)|Destructicon]] [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1994/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Hero Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
{{anchor|LaserOptimusPrime}}
*'''Laser Optimus Prime''' (1995)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''TRF-13'''
**''Accessories:'' "Laser cannon", "saber weapon", missile launcher, 10 missiles, 5 discs, 2 rockets
[[File:G2toy laser optimus prime.jpg|thumb|upright=2.2|What was that about shoulder-speakers, Jazz?]]

: Laser Optimus Prime transforms into a mid-1990s Western Star 4964EX, pulling a grey and black fuel tank trailer. The sides of the trailer are decorated with an unintentionally humourous sticker depicting Prime using a flamethrower to burn down a forest, with the words "Optimus Prime Octane" over the image. Not an especially Primey thing to do! The truck is armed with a disc launcher on the roof of its trailer, which launches five blue discs bearing the ''Generation 2'' Autobot insignia as a knob is turned. Like the other "[[Laser Rod|Laser]]" toys released this year, Prime features electronics powered by two button-cell batteries; in truck mode, pressing the button on the cab's roof causes his headlight to light up with yellow LEDs.

:In the grand Optimus tradition, the cab of Laser Optimus Prime disconnects to become the highly poseable robot mode of Prime himself. Like Powermaster Prime and Hero Prime, the toy features the iconic windshield pecs and grill abs, despite not actually being formed from the actual truck components they emulate. In robot mode, pressing the button on Prime's cab (now on his back) activates a red LED in his right fist which illuminates his clear-plastic sword (which stores beneath his legs in truck mode).

:Prime's trailer unfolds via a spring-loaded transformation mechanism in a battle station that is positively ''bristling'' with varied weaponry. In addition to the disc launcher, it is armed with a "ripple-fire" missile launcher that fires five missiles, an air-powered rocket launcher like the one previously seen on Hero Optimus Prime, and a small laser cannon that mounts on the base's main tower. Both the missile launcher and laser cannon can disconnect and be held by Prime; his LED-fist will illuminate the laser cannon like it does his sword. Additional missiles and a second rocket are stored in grooves inside the sides of the trailer.

:This mold was redecoed by Takara in 2000 as ''[[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 toyline)|Car Robots]]'' [[Scourge (RID)|Black Convoy]]. The following year, it was released by Hasbro as Black Convoy's [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2001 franchise)|2001 ''Robots in Disguise'' franchise]] counterpart, Scourge, with retooled discs that lacked the Autobot insignia. Following this, the next use of the mold was planned to be ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]]'' [[Toxitron (Universe)|Toxitron]], which ended up being canceled. The modified tooling was also used when Laser Prime was reissued by Takara in 2006 with a modified deco ([[#G2reissue|see below]]), and for the e-Hobby exclusive [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys#G-2|Laser Ultra Magnus]] that accompanied the reissue's release. In 2015, ''[[Transformers: Platinum Edition|Platinum Edition Year of the Goat]]'' Optimus Prime, another repaint version, comes with partially transparent plastic torso.

:In addition to being the most popular Generation 2 figure, Laser Optimus Prime was, prior to 2003, a regular contender for most popular Transformers toy ''ever'', back in the days of the annual Transformers fan awards, "The Trannies." The toy won twice, and actually lost once to his redeco, Scourge.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1995/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Laser Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

{{anchor|GobotOptimusPrime}}
[[File:G2toy gobot prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Sweet ride, Prime]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Go-Bot, 1995)
**''Accessories:'' Gun

: [[Go-Bot (G2)|Go-Bot]] Optimus Prime transforms into a red Hot Wheels-sized Lamborghini Diablo. Like most Go-Bots, he features high speed axles and can roll very well across smooth surfaces, but lacks the weight to propel him quickly. He is armed with a small red laser rifle.

:The Japanese release of this toy swapped out the orange plastic for neon yellow, and had a large tampograph on the car's hood that was shaped like a stylized letter 'T', with the Transformers logo in it. Going against the grain, this toy was released in Japan with the name "Optimus Prime" instead of "Convoy".

:This sculpt was redecoed from the ''Generation 2'' Gobot [[Firecracker]]. The plastic colors are a "solid" version of Firecracker's color layout, substituting opaque red for transparent red plastic. It was redecoed again for the third wave of Go-Bots to become [[Sideswipe (G1)/toys#Go-Bot|Sideswipe]] (who Prime ''really'' looks a lot like), and would later be used to created ''Robots in Disguise'' [[R.E.V.]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1995/Autobot/OptimusPrimeGobot/optimusprime.htm More information on Go-Bot Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
{{anchor|CombatHeroOptimusPrime}}
[[File:CombatHeroPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Combat Hero, 1995)
**''Accessories:'' Gun, 2 rockets
{{anchor|g2combatheroprime}}
: Combat Hero Optimus Prime was to be a redeco of Hero Optimus Prime in dark blue and red. Packaged samples of this toy were produced, but it was ultimately never released.

:The packaged samples feature a "traditional" color scheme for the head, with a silver [[mouthplate]]; the prototype depicted in the official catalog image seen on the right sports an unusual ''red'' mouthplate, which inspired several later toys.

:A finished sample of Combat Hero Optimus Prime was among the rare toys auctioned off for charity at [[BotCon 1996]], along with several other unreleased ''Generation 2'' items.

::*''[http://www.toyarchive.com/Transformers/Prototypes/Generation2/HeroOptimusPrimeProtoMOSC.html "Combat Hero" Optimus Prime in packaging at Super Toy Archive]''
::*''[http://www.transformertoys.co.uk/resources/review/generation+2/blue+optimus+prime/3654 "Combat Hero" Optimus Prime in packaging at Transformers @ The Moon]''
::*''[http://www.seibertron.com/transformers-toys/gallery/g2/combat-hero-optimus-prime/3429/1/ "Combat Hero" Optimus Prime in and out of packaging at Seibertron]
{{canceledtoy}}
{{-}}
{{anchor|G2General}}
*'''General Optimus Prime''' (Auto Roller, 1995)
**''Accessories:'' Four missiles
[[File:Un autorollers.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]

: "General" Optimus Prime would have been a redeco of the Decepticon [[Auto Roller]] [[Dirtbag]] in green, ironically bearing a closer resemblance to [[Hound (G1)|Hound]]'s color scheme than the also-unreleased [[Hound (G1)#Generation 2|"Sgt. Hound"]] Auto Roller. General Optimus Prime would have transformed into a dump truck, and would've had an [[autotransformation]] gimmick.

: This mold was also used to make [[Autostinger]].

{{canceledtoy}}
{{-}}
{{anchor|G2reissue}}
[[File:LaserPrime reissue.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Battle Convoy''' (reissue, 2006)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''TRF-13'''
**''Accessories:'' "Laser cannon", "saber weapon", missile launcher, 10 missiles, 5 discs, 2 rockets

:This reissue of the original ''Generation 2'' Laser Optimus Prime figure was made using the modified version of the mold created for ''Robots in Disguise'' Scourge, lacking the sculpted ''Generation 2'' Autobot insignias on the disks featured on the original. It sported a modified deco, with the flat grey plastic on both the trailer and Prime's chest now replaced with silver chrome; additionally, new Autobot symbol tampographs were added to the doors of Prime's cab mode and the front end of his trailer, and a pair of new chest-window stickers featuring an illustration of the Matrix of Leadership replaced the original decals.

:This version of the mold was used to create the e-Hobby exclusive Laser Ultra Magnus, and somewhat more perplexingly, was briefly [[repurposing|repurposed]] by the [[Master of the Game|second]] ''[[Beast Wars Reborn]]'' text story as a temporary body for [[Optimus Primal]]!
{{-}}

==Beast Wars==
{{Note|Very early in the life of the ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' toyline (before the debut of the ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' cartoon), Hasbro treated the series as an extension of the Autobot/Decepticon war, and so Optimus Primal was presented as being the same character as Optimus Prime.}}

*'''Optimus Primal vs Megatron!''' (Basic versus two-pack, 1996)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-6'''[[File:BWtoy-Primalbat.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|I'm Batman, and I can breathe in space.]]
**''Accessories:'' Two swords
:The first ''[[Beast Wars: Transformers (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]] is a Basic size class blue bat which could autotransform into a robot by pulling the tail. Two swords were removable from under its wings for use as weaponry in [[robot mode]]. It was packaged along with an alligator version of Megatron and a ''Beast Wars'' mini-comic.

:This figure was released during the short-lived period when Hasbro was treating the Beast Wars as an extension of the Autobot/Decepticon war, and Optimus Primal was presented as being the same character as Optimus Prime. This was soon relegated to the realms of [[micro-continuity]] when the ''Beast Wars'' animated series began and clearly established that the two Optimuses were different characters, but the toy remains one that was officially branded as Prime, and is consequently listed here.

:This mold was also used to make the [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Prime-recolored Convobat]] (who may or may not be a separate character to either Prime or Primal), and [[Onyx Primal]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1996/Maximal/OptimusPrimalBat/optimusprimal.htm More information on Optimus Primal at TFU.info]''

[[File:Optimusprimaltoyultraape.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Well, that's just Prime.]]
*'''Optimus Primal''' (Ultra, 1996/1997/1998)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''C-1'''
**''Accessories:'' Two swords, four missiles, flail
: The second Optimus Primal toy was an ape in the Ultra size class. Though the transformation from primate to humanoid was a relatively simplistic one, the toy compensated with more than a fair share of weaponry and action features. A compartment on his right forearm opened to reveal a skull-shaped mace he could hold in his fist. His left forearm could open into a double-barreled missile launcher. On his back were two spring-loaded missile launchers which auto-flipped over each shoulder. By pulling a lever in the center of his back, both arms would either spin at the bicep or bend in and out at the elbow, depending on the placement of notch-buttons located on either bicep. This gimmick was shown to be an effort to simulate a gorilla beating its chest while Optimus was in [[beast mode]], but could also be used in robot mode, making him swing his weapons wildly before himself. And finally, like many first-year ''Beast Wars'' toys, a battle mask/"[[mutant head]]" could be deployed over his robot head.

:Takara released the toy as part of their ''Beast Wars'' line in July of 1997, nearly identical to the Hasbro version. The missiles for the Takara version are thinner and simpler than the original Hasbro version, and would be used in all subsequent releases of the mold.

:Just like Optimus Primal's basic bat toy, this figure was released during the short-lived period when the Beast Wars was still considered to be an extension of the Autobot/Decepticon war, and Optimus Primal was the same character as Optimus Prime. This was soon relegated to the realms of [[micro-continuity]] when the ''Beast Wars'' animated series began and clearly established that the two Optimuses were different characters, but the toy remains one that was officially branded as Prime, and is consequently listed here.

:This mold was [[redeco]]ed into ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]]'' Optimus Primal and [[Transformers: Beast Wars Telemocha Series|Beast Wars Telemocha Series]] DX Convoy, and [[retool]]ed into ''Beast Wars Reborn''/''Beast Wars Tenth Anniversary'' versus pack Optimus Primal. Takara also created multiple special variants, including all-gold (from ''Tele-V Magazine'', only ten awarded), red and gray (''Tele-V'' again, but only ''one'' awarded), and blue-fur (a ''Comics Bom Bom'' design-contest prize, only five awarded).

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1996/Maximal/OptimusPrimal/optimusprimal.htm More information on ape Optimus Primal at TFU.info]''

{{anchor|AmazonConvobat}}
[[File:BW-toy OptimusPrimalCDROM.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|Freedom is the right of all superstitious, cowardly lots. Wait, no, that's not right...]]
*'''Amazon Showdown''' (multipack)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''VS-S1'''
**''Accessories:'' Two swords
: Available only in a special CD-ROM two-pack with a [[Megatron (BW)/toys|purple redeco of "Megaligator"]], this version of Optimus Primal (maybe) retains its previous gimmickry. his back features a silver Maximal [[Insignia|faction symbol]] plus "C-ROM", as in "Cybertron", get it? Huh? And Megatron has the "D-ROM"? See what they did there?

: Just what character this toy represents is up for debate. The toy's [[bio]] claims he used to turn into a tractor-trailer (indicating Optimus Prime), but considering the timeframe of when they were written and the whole lack of a stance on who Primal "was" before the show and blah blah blah... it's just easier to file this under the same iffiness as the original toy bios set on modern [[Earth]] and leave it at that.

: This mold was also used to make [[Onyx Primal]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1997/Cybertron/ConvoyBat/convoybat.htm More information on CD-ROM Convobat at TFU.info]''

==Machine Wars==
[[File:MachineWarsPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Most Autobots [[Primus apotheosis|aspire]] to be Optimus Prime, Optimus Prime aspires to be [[Thunder Clash]].]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Ultra, 1997)
**''Accessories:'' Laser rifle, 2 missiles

: Available only at [[KB Toys]], ''[[Machine Wars: Transformers|Machine Wars]]'' Optimus Prime is a redeco and slight retool of the European Generation 1 exclusive [[Turbomaster]] leader [[Thunder Clash]], transforming into a Cybertronic truck cab. It's easy to see why Thunder Clash was chosen to become the new Optimus Prime, given his adherence to Prime tradition: the cab disconnects to become the robot, while the trailer unfolds to become an assault tower with twin missile launchers. On the original Thunder Clash version of the mold, the launchers operated on a gravity-feed system that saw a new missile drop into the launcher from above each time one was fired, allowing for twelve to be fired in rapid succession, but for ''Machine Wars'' Prime, this feature had to be dialed back [[for safety reasons]]. The missiles had to be lengthened to prevent choking hazards, and so the toy's launchers were modified to accommodate them, becoming straightforward spring-loaded single-firing weapons.

: This version of the mold was planned to be [[redeco]]ed into [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] for the ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|Universe]]'' line, but the release was canceled.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1997/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on ''Machine Wars'' Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

==Choro-Q Robo==
[[File:ChoroQOptimus.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]

*'''Convoy TV Version''' (2001)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''Q/01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser rifle

:''[[Choro-Q|Choro-Q Robo]]'' Convoy is a small, cutesified transforming figure of Optimus Prime that changes from trailer-pulling truck directly to [[robot mode]]. The toy features a working pull-back motor, and is decorated in a color scheme based on Prime's appearance in the original Generation 1 cartoon, with blue eyes and windows and a grey stripe on the trailer.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2001/Cybertron/ChoroQConvoyTV/convoy.htm Move information on Convoy TV Version at TFU.info]''

*'''Convoy Metallic Version''' (2001)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''Q/02'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser rifle

:This version of ''Choro-Q Robo'' Convoy is a redeco of the first, featuring glittering metallic plastic, and a deco based upon the original toy, with yellow eyes, black windows and a silver-and-blue stripe on the trailer.
{{-}}

==Commemorative Series==
[[File:Commemorative series optimus prime modifications.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|The snip that launched a thousand snits.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2002/2012)
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (grey), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:The first reissue of the original Optimus Prime toy in North America since the Generation 1 toyline reached its end, this "[[The Transformers: Generation One Commemorative Series|Commemorative Series]]" edition of the figure was a Toys R Us exclusive. It was ''mostly'' identical to the original figure, save for some necessary modifications made [[for safety reasons]]: In the first instance of what would become a recognizable alteration to the mold, the toy's smokestacks were shortened, while the Combat Deck's firing missiles were elongated to prevent potential choking, as was the case with all other Commemorative Series figures' firing missiles. This release also had the trailer's launching feature removed.

:In 2012, a reissue of the Commemorative Series toy was released. Though the "Commemorative Series" label was not printed anywhere on the packaging, the included instructions retained the name.

:The toy itself is a mix of different versions. The cab has the safety modifications, including the shortened smokestacks and longer missiles (and thicker rifle), but also has the modified hitch of the 2011 Chronicle DOTM two pack. Meanwhile, the trailer is the lighter grey version from the 2008 Universe release. This version also seems to suffer from [[Mold#Deterioration|mold deterioration]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Commemorative Series Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|ApexArmorPrime}}
[[File:GodGinrai toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|The real one has a longer missile]]
*'''Powermaster Optimus Prime with Apex Armor''' (2003)
**''Accessories:'' Hi-Q Powermaster unit, 2 Laser Rifles, 2 Twin Particle Beam Cannons, Super Robot head, missile launcher, 2 missiles, [[Apex Bomber]] chest/trailer top, 2 legs (left & right), 2 arms (left and right), Armor chest/trailer front, 2 wings (left & right)

:Marketed as a reissue of Powermaster Optimus Prime, this Toys R Us-exclusive Commemorative Series figure is in truth based on the Ginrai tooling on the toy that had previously been exclusive to Japan. It features a die-cast metal cab with translucent blue windows, and shortened, chrome smokestacks, and comes packaged with the drone [[Apex Bomber]] (formerly Ginrai's partner [[Godbomber]]), who splits into several components and combines with Prime to form "Apex Armor". As with all other Commemorative Series figures, Prime's new spring-loaded missile launcher featured an elongated missile.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2003/Autobot/ApexPrime/apexprime.htm More information on Powermaster Prime with Apex Armor at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Transformers Collection==
[[File:Tf collection 0 convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy''' (2003)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''0'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (dark blue), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump, [[energon-axe]]

:As yet another in an increasingly large number of reissues of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime toy, this entry in the Japanese-exclusive ''[[The Transformers Collection]]'' line of reissues added a few extra goodies to spice things up. Chiefly, the figure was armed with a new [[energon-axe]], based on the weapon used by Prime in the Generation 1 cartoon episode, "[[More than Meets the Eye, Part 2]]", which plugs into either of the headlight-holes that normally accommodate Prime's fists. Additionally, Prime came packaged with a ring binder folder designed to hold the pull-out character file sheets that were included with all the other ''Transformers Collection'' reissues. Notably, this figure reinstated the original, thick version of Prime's rifle as the standard for all future Japanese reissues.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/1984/Autobot/OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Transformers Collection Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
[[File:Tfcollection prime fist.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Starscream''' (2003)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''9'''

:This redeco of the original Generation 1 [[Starscream (G1)/toys|Starscream]] [[Starscream (G1)/toys|toy]] came packaged with a remolded right fist for Optimus Prime. This fist featured additional pegs that allowed it to hold [[Megatron (G1)/toys#TFCStarscream|the pistol mode Megatron accessory]] which was also included with Starscream.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2003/Destron/AnimeStarscream/starscream.htm More information on Transformers Collection Starscream at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Smallest Transforming Transformers==
[[File:WSTF Convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|You didn't find my trailer, did you? Haw haw.]]
*'''Convoy''' (2003)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''GTF 01A'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster

:Standing only two-and-a-quarter inches tall, ''[[Smallest Transforming Transformers]]'' Optimus Prime is the smallest fully transforming G1 Optimus toy. He features an accurate transformation sequence based on the original full-sized toy, and he even comes with a tiny version of his laser rifle, but understandably has no detachable hands, and has little articulation. His trailer and Roller were also available as a separate set in the same wave, as a rare [[shortpacking|shortpacked]] figure with the ID number "GTF-01B".

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2003/Cybertron/SmallestPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Smallest Transforming Convoy at TFU.info]''
{{-}}[[File:Wstf anime convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy (Anime Version)''' (2004)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''GTF 06'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster

:''Smallest Transforming'' Prime was redecoed the following year for the second wave of the line, into a color scheme based on his Generation 1 cartoon appearance featuring brighter reds and blues, white thighs, yellow details on his bumper, and blue eyes and windows. This version of the figure was made available for a second time in the next wave ("Wave 2.5"), with a new anime-decorated version of the Combat Deck now available as a rare "chase" figure.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Cybertron/SmallestAnimePrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Convoy (Anime Version) at TFU.info]''
{{-}}[[File:Wstf white convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy (White)''' (2004)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''GTF X-4'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster

:Another version of Prime was also available in the second wave of the ''Smallest Transforming Transformers'' series as a chase figure. This almost entirely white version of the figure is clearly based on the version of the original Prime cab robot used in the Generation 1 Ultra Magnus figure, but was nonetheless sold as Optimus Prime for the ''Smallest'' line.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Cybertron/SmallestConvoyWhiteMode/convoy.htm More information on Convoy (White) at TFU.info]''
{{-}}[[File:Wstf vsx.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy vs Megatron''' (multipack, 2004)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''VSX'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster

:Available exclusively through [[Dengeki Hobby]] magazine, this ''Smallest Transforming Transformers'' two-pack contains both Optimus Prime and Megatron, in homage to the original 1984 "VSX" giftset containing the original versions of the two leaders.
{{-}}
==Mini Toy Shop Collection==
[[File:G1toy mini toy shop convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy''' (2004)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''01'''
:At about 2/3 the size of the ''Smallest Transforming Transformers'', this diminutive version of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime toy is the smallest figure of the Autobot leader made to date. It was sold as part of Takara's blindpacked ''[[Mini Toy Shop Collection]]'' line, a series of miniaturized figures from numerous classic Takara toylines, including ''Transformers'', ''[[Microman]]'', ''[[Licca Kayama|Licca-chan]]'', ''[[Choro-Q]]'' and others. Both of Prime's modes are represented by non-transforming individual figures, which come together in a two-pack. In-box, his truck form is even packed in a miniature recreation of his original Japanese packaging, which also includes a shrunken version of his sticker sheet. A tiny version of the original Takara Transformers catalog completes the set.
::*''[http://tformers.com/article.php?sid=3541&mode=flat More information on Mini Collection Convoy at tformers.com]'' {{-}}
{{-}}

==20th Anniversary/Masterpiece==
{{MPOptimusMold}}
[[File:20thAnniversary OptimusPrimesm.jpg|thumb|upright=2.2|And the fandom rejoiced.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2003/2004)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-1'''
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster, Autobot Matrix of Leadership, gun mode Megatron, Megatron's scope, stock and silencer, energon-axe, cardboard trailer (Japanese release only)

: As the name suggests, this impressive incarnation of Optimus Prime was produced in celebration of the 20th anniversary of the ''Transformers'' brand. So successful was the figure that ''ToyFare'' magazine ultimately ranked it #1 in their quest for "Best Toy Ever".<ref>[http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/toyfare/000054376.cfm ToyFare Magazine Best Toys Ever]</ref>

:Created with the specific purpose of producing an Optimus Prime as accurate to the original animated series as possible, the toy is exceptionally poseable, partially constructed from die-cast metal, features rubber tires and vacuum-metalized plastic and is heavily detailed, with sliding pistons in its joints and working spring-loaded suspension in vehicle mode. The figure also contains multiple non-intrusive gimmicks, such as a moving [[mouthplate]] to emulate Prime's traditional method of speech, flip-up communications panels on the forearms depicting images of [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] and [[Starscream (G1)|Starscream]], and an opening, light-up Matrix chamber in the chest, which contains a removable vacuum-metalized Matrix of Leadership that can also be pulled open.

:Optimus Prime comes with many accessories in addition to the aforementioned Matrix, including the character's traditional laser rifle, now termed (and henceforth known as) an [[ion blaster]]. The initial release of the figure cast the ion blaster in grey plastic, but later assortments recast it in its more familiar black coloration. Other accessories include a transparent orange energon-axe that plugs into either wrist when Prime's fist is retracted, and even a non-transforming gun mode Megatron weapon, with removable stock, silencer and scope accessories, in homage to [[Countdown to Extinction (episode)|several]] [[The Insecticon Syndrome|instances]] in the Generation 1 cartoon when Prime was forced to wield his enemy. Pack-in bonuses that came with the figure included an inner cardboard tray illustrated to resemble the interior of Prime's Combat Deck, and in later releases, a small poster drawn by [[Pat Lee]].

:Takara's version of the figure was released in their markets slightly earlier, as the first of what would come to be several installments in their ''[[The Transformers: Masterpiece|Masterpiece]]'' line. In addition to coming with a cardboard trailer that the buyer could assemble to "complete" Prime's truck mode, Takara's release differed from Hasbro's by featuring longer smokestacks (kept short on the Hasbro version [[for safety reasons]], but incorrectly shown to be long in the stock photography shown at right), and lacking the black scorch-marked "battle damage" paint applications Hasbro included on the figure's shoulders, wrists and abdomen.

:This sculpt was redecoed by Takara into a golden Lucky Draw figure and later released in its original coloration with a trailer as a "Perfect Edition" (see below for both), while Hasbro would later redeco it into their ''[[Transformers: Classics|Classics]]''-branded "[[#Classics|DVD Edition]]". The mold was also used to make ''Masterpiece'' [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys|Ultra Magnus]] and "[[Eldedroid|Convoy Black Version]]", representing one of many drones built in Prime's image, rather than Prime himself.

:In ''[[Transformers History Collection]]'', a [[Blindpacking|blind-packed]] Transformers trading figure line, Takara released an add-on hand for ''Masterpiece'' Convoy as a [[Chase figure]]. The hand holds a [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] figure and clips on to the end of Optimus Prime's arm, making the arm slightly longer than normal.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Autobot/20thPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|goldmp}}
[[File:Gold masterpiece prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|We salute the brave soul who transformed this thing in order to photograph it.]]
*'''Convoy''' (Lucky Draw figure, 2004)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-1'''
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster, Autobot Matrix of Leadership, gun mode Megatron, Megatron's scope, stock and silencer, energon-axe, cardboard trailer

:Offered as part of a Lucky Draw campaign in August 2004, this extremely rare version of ''Masterpiece'' Convoy is almost entirely vacuum-metalized gold, lacking any other painted detail or stickers. The parts which are not viable are molded in a flat golden plastic; the only exceptions are its rubber tires, the core of the Matrix and the energon-axe, which remain black, blue and orange, respectively. Whether or not the figure was intended to evoke Optimus Prime's [[:File:Goldenlagoon prime perceptor.jpg|entirely-golden appearance]] in the cartoon episode "[[The Golden Lagoon (episode)|The Golden Lagoon]]", when he was coated with [[electrum]], is unknown; given that entirely chroming a figure gold is a fairly standard deco for Lucky Draw figures, it may just be happy coincidence more than anything else.

:The figure comes packaged in the standard ''Masterpiece'' Convoy box, with the only telltale sign of its fabled contents being the replacement of the traditionally silver foil lettering on the box with gold. It's not clear how many were made, but it is thought to be no more than 10 or 20.

::*''[http://www.goldoptimusprime.com/ More information on gold ''Masterpiece'' Convoy at GoldOptimusPrime.com]''

{{-}}{{anchor|mp4}}
[[File:MP04Convoy2.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|You just paid $170 for a big box on wheels.]]
*'''Convoy Perfect Edition''' (2006, 2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-4'''
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/Combat Deck, ion Blaster, Autobot Matrix of Leadership, gun mode Megatron, Megatron's scope, stock and silencer, energon-axe, cardboard trailer

: For this re-release of ''Masterpiece'' Convoy, Takara submitted to the biggest desire fans had for the figure and produced a full-size, fully transforming plastic and die-cast metal trailer. The trailer opens up into Convoy's Combat Deck, with storage for its accessories and a functional repair drone, though Roller is conspicuous by its absence. Like the original Combat Deck, the drone can extend through holes in the roof and front of the closed trailer, and the interior has enough room to accommodate one ''[[Transformers: Alternators|Alternators]]'' figure in [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]]. Some reports suggest that the paint on this figure's chest chips more easily than past editions.

: This version of Convoy, and Hasbro's 20th Anniversary DVD version of the toy depicts [[Megatron (G1)|Megatron]] and [[Grimlock (G1)|Grimlock]] on its communicators rather than Bumblebee and Starscream.

: Continuating the trend begun by their previous release of ''Masterpiece'' Ultra Magnus in 2005, Hasbro [[Australia]] released Convoy Perfect Edition as a Target Australia [[exclusive]] in 2008. Takara themselves then made the figure available for a second time in October 2009.

{{-}}{{anchor|sleepmode}}
[[File:MP4Sconvoysleepmode.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Remember that scene from the movie that made you cry and traumatised you as a kid? Well now you can display me doing just that!]]
*'''Convoy Sleep Mode''' (2010)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-4S'''
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/Combat Deck, ion Blaster, Autobot Matrix of Leadership, gun mode Megatron, Megatron's scope, stock and silencer, energon-axe

: Released by TakaraTomy as part of a 2010 promotion honoring the "future era" of the original cartoon (which was set in 2010 in Japanese continuity, you see!), this exceptionally morbid re-release of the ''Masterpiece'' Convoy figure recolors the Autobot leader in blacks and greys, representing ''his dead body'' from ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]''—but don't worry, kids, it's actually a "sleep mode", according to the figure's name! Limited to 2010 pieces in Japan (see what they did there?), it comes with all its customary accessories, including the Perfect Edition trailer, redecoed where appropriate: the trailer itself has become translucent, its energon-axe is now transparent grey, and Megatron, in another movie homage, is rendered in translucent purple, evoking the scene depicting his transformation into [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]]. The figure was also released in other parts of Asia as a limited edition of 2010 as well, combined with the Japanese edition for 4020 total. The Japanese version denotes "Serial Number in Japan: ####/2010" on its bio card with the number out of 2010, while the Asian version denotes "C1 - ####/2010" with the number out of 2010 on its bio card.

: This version of Convoy depicts [[Hot Rod]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] on its communicators.

{{-}}{{anchor|lastshot}}
[[File:MPtoy last shot convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Well, it had to end ''some'' day...]]
*'''Convoy Last Production''' (2011)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-1L'''
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster, Autobot Matrix of Leadership, gun mode Megatron, Megatron's scope, stock and silencer, energon-axe, sound stage

:"Convoy Last Production" was the final re-use of the ''Masterpiece'' toy mold before it was at last retired after numerous re-releases and redecos. The figure is essentially identical to the original Japanese MP-1 release, aside from a slightly brighter red, and the addition of the words "LAST SHOT" in Transformers typeface molded into the small of Convoy's back, hidden beneath its headlight-flaps in [[robot mode]]. Lacking the trailer of MP-4, the figure instead comes with a redecoed version of the electronic base included with Hasbro's "[[#20thDVD|DVD Edition]]" of the figure from five years prior, which now features a collection of sixteen soundbytes of Convoy delivering famous lines from the Japanese version of the Generation 1 cartoon, recited by the character's original Japanese voice actor [[Tesshō Genda]]. The base was promoted as containing a hint as to the identity of the next ''Masterpiece'' toy; as it would turn out, this was a new version of Convoy himself (see below), foreshadowed by a sound clip on the base which played only intermittently, and which had Convoy announce that he would "soon be reborn".

{{-}}{{anchor|mp10}}
[[File:MP-10 toy photo.jpg|thumb|upright=2.2|Here we go again...]]
*'''Convoy''' (2011)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-10'''
**''Accessories:'' [[Ion blaster#mp10|Ion blaster]], [[Matrix of Leadership/toys#mp10|Matrix of Leadership]], [[Energon-axe#mp10|energon-axe]], [[Combat Deck (G1)#mp10|trailer/Combat Deck]], [[Roller (G1)#Masterpiece|Roller]], [[Spike Witwicky (G1)#Masterpiece|Spike Witwicky figurine]]
:MP-10 Convoy is an entirely new tooling of Generation 1 Optimus Prime. Convoy is now smaller, making him more in-scale with other recent ''Masterpiece'' toys, such as [[Hot Rod/toys#Masterpiece|Rodimus]], and comes with a trailer and various accessories. While the front of the vehicle mode's cab is an accurate depiction of a mid-to-late-1980s Freightliner FLT cabover, the back half, (which is, as usual, made out of Convoy's legs) is much larger and robot-leggier in proportion. (So much that they sculpt a ladder on each side.)

:Many of the small features and electronics of the original ''Masterpiece'' mold are left out. Instead, this Convoy features better overall cartoon accuracy (chest interior, head, etc.), an extensive red paint job that covers much of his red plastic, corrected robot mode proportions, improved articulation, and its gun can now collapse and store inside a compartment on its back in either mode. In addition to Convoy's trailer, which can transform into Combat Deck, it also comes with Roller, a small Spike Witwicky figurine, a die-cast metal Matrix of Leadership (with a clear blue plastic center), and an energy axe that slips over Convoy's right hand. Spike can fit inside the cab in vehicle mode, ride in Roller's seat, or fit into any of the seating compartments inside Convoy's trailer. Roller has options to plug in Convoy's gun or pull Convoy's trailer, and the trailer itself can store Convoy's weapons in any mode.

:This mold was also used to make [[Nemesis Prime (G1)#Masterpiece|MP-10B Black Convoy]].

{{-}}{{anchor|mpbape}}
[[File:Bape-mp-optimus.jpg|upright=2.2|thumb]]
*'''Convoy (BAPE ver.)''' ([[August 19|7-19]]-2014)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-10A'''
**''Accessories:'' [[Ion blaster#mpbape|Ion Blaster]], [[Matrix of Leadership/toys#mpbape|Matrix of Leadership]], [[Energon-axe#mpbape|Energon axe]]

{{charstubtoys}}

{{-}}{{anchor|eva}}
[[File:Eva-optimus.jpg|upright=2.2|thumb|Unlike Shinji, this guy won't go strangling his girlfriend or dating his mother's clone, if he even has a mother...]]
*'''Convoy Mode "Eva"''' ([[November 28|11-28]]-2014)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-10'''
**''Accessories:'' [[Ion blaster#eva|Ion Blaster]], [[Matrix of Leadership/toys#eva|Matrix of Leadership]], [[Energon-axe#eva|Energon axe]], [[Combat Deck (G1)#eva|trailer/Battle Station]], [[Roller (G1)#eva|Roller]], [[Spike Witwicky (G1)#eva|Spike Witwicky figurine]]

:Limited to 1,000 pieces, this figure was released as part of the ''[[Transformers × Evangelion]]'' crossover. It uses the MP-10 mold with all the same accessories, decoed in the green and purple color scheme of [[Eva-01]]. The trailer, Roller and Spike figure are done up in [[NERV]]-themed colors.

{{-}}{{anchor|mpbape2}}
[[File:Bape2-mp-optimus.jpg|upright=2.2|thumb|Because one overpriced clothing store exclusive MP10 repaint wasn't enough]]
*'''Convoy (BAPE ver. 2)''' (11-2015)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''MP-10R'''
**''Accessories:'' Ion Blaster, Matrix of Leadership, Energon axe

{{comingsoontoy}}
{{-}}

==Robotmasters==
[[File:RMConvoy toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|My vehicle mode is dangerous and unroadworthy!]]
*'''G1 Convoy''' (2004)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RM-01'''
**''Accessories:'' "Convoy Gun", missile launcher, missile, energon-axe, 4 fists (2 left, 2 right)

: ''[[Robotmasters (franchise)|Robotmasters]]'' "G1 Convoy" (as he is amusingly referred to even in fiction) visibly takes its cue from ''20th Anniversary'' Optimus Prime, featuring a similar sculpt, but sharing few to none of the larger toy's other attributes, least of all anything that could be described as a successful transformation.

:G1 Convoy comes with two sets of fists, each pair featuring differently-shaped fist holes: one pair with square holes to hold the figure's "Convoy Gun" (as his ion blaster is called), and the other with round holes to hold the spring-loaded translucent blue missile launcher (a generic accessory also available with ''Robotmasters'' [[Megatron (BW)/toys|Beast Megatron]] and [[Optimus Primal/toys|Beast Convoy]]). The fists are swapped out by simply popping them out of the wrist-hinge that holds them in place; the figure also includes an energon-axe that can be inserted into the wrist instead of a fist.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Cybertron/Convoy/convoy.htm More information on G1 Convoy at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
[[File:RM DVDConvoy toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|I'm shiny!]]
*'''G1 Convoy + DVD''' (2004)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RM-10'''
**''Accessories:'' "Convoy Gun", missile launcher, missile, energon-axe, 4 fists (2 left, 2 right)

: This special edition release of G1 Convoy is decked out in metallic paint, with an extra Autobot insignia tampographed onto his right shoulder, and a black Convoy Gun. The figure comes packed with a DVD containing the first episode of the ''Robotmasters'' cartoon, "[[Fight! The Group of the Strongest Commanders!]]".

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Cybertron/DVDConvoy/convoy.htm More information on G1 Convoy + DVD at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
[[File:Rmblackconvoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|I'm blacky!]]
*'''G1 Convoy Limited Black Version''' (2005)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RM-01'''
**''Accessories:'' "Convoy Gun", missile launcher, missile, energon-axe, 4 fists (2 left, 2 right), Calamity Defenser

: Available only via mail-order through ''Dengeki Hobby'' magazine, the "Limited Black Version" of G1 Convoy is just that: a straight [[black repaint]] of the G1 Convoy toy. He comes with all his original accessories, appropriately redecoed (including a silver version of his axe), as well as a gold-chromed version of the "Calamity Defenser" [[Solitarium]] weapon that came with [[Psycho-Orb]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Cybertron/HHG1Convoy/convoy.htm More information on G1 Convoy Limited Black Version at TFU.info]''
{{-}}[[File:Crayola convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|The third one is totally ''Shattered Glass'' Prime!]]
*'''G1 Convoy''' (Lucky Draw figure, 2005)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''RM-01'''
**''Accessories:'' "Convoy Gun", missile launcher, missile, energon-axe, 4 fists (2 left, 2 right)

:When ''Robotmasters'' G1 Convoy was turned into a Lucky Draw figure, the color scheme into which he was redecoed was chosen through a children's coloring contest held in the pages of the December 2004 issue of ''[[TV Magazine]]''. The winning entry was a... ''startling'' mixture of blue, orange and two shades of green, earning the toy the [[fandom|fan]]-appointed nickname of "Crayola Convoy". As with all Lucky Draws, it is extremely rare, with only ten units produced.

::*''[http://www.luckydrawtransformers.com/toy/gallery/review/transformers+robot+masters+-+lucky+draw+custom+colour+g1+convoy/1594/transformers+robot+masters+-+lucky+draw+custom+colour+g1+convoy.html More information on "Crayola Convoy" at LuckyDrawTransformers.com]''
{{-}}

==Universe (2003)==
[[File:SpychangerG1Prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Why won't they repaint my full-size toy in these colours?!?]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Spy Changer, 2004)

: ''Universe'' Optimus Prime is a [[redeco]] of the ''Robots in Disguise'' [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]] [[Spy Changer]] toy. He replaces most of the black plastic with predominantly red and blue, with silver for detailing, with an overall deco making him resemble the original Optimus Prime. Like most Spychangers, he features high speed axles and can roll very well across smooth surfaces, but lacks the weight to propel him quickly.

: Originally a KB Toys exclusive, the first release of this toy (and the others in the assortment) did not have any sub-line designation at all, but later releases for other chains, most notably "budget" chains like Family Dollar, marked them as ''Universe'' product.

:This mold would later be redecoed into [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Optimus Prime Figure|a Spy Changer version of]] the live-action movie [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2004/Autobot/SpyPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Universe Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Collector's Edition==
{{anchor|OrionPax}}
[[File:OrionPaxDion toys.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|"Welcome to The Past!"]]
*'''Orion Pax''' (2005)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''67'''
**''accessories:'' Barrelroller partner, laser rifle

: This [[Collector's Edition]] Japanese [[e-HOBBY]] exclusive was a redeco of [[Targetmaster]] [[Kup (G1)|Kup]], released in conjunction with the 2006 reissue of Kup and designed to represent the character [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Orion Pax]] from the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 television series]] episode "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]". Orion transforms into a Cybertronic pickup truck and came with both a gun and [[Roller (G1)|Barrelroller]], a redeco of [[Recoil]]. He has full shoulder rotation, though the way his elbows are set up means he cannot make full use of their joints. His legs feature no articulation whatsoever.

: Just as the reissued Kup came with a reissue of [[Wheelie (G1)|Wheelie]], this set also included a redeco of Wheelie as Orion's best friend, [[Dion]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2005/Cybertron/OrionPax/orionpax.htm More information on Orion Pax at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
==Hybrid Style==
*'''Convoy''' (2006)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''T.H.S.-02'''[[File:THS02Convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Expensive and tiny.]]
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/Combat Deck, Roller, ion blaster, gas pump, energon-axe, Autobot Matrix of Leadership, [[jet pack|rocket pack]], 8 fists (4 left, 4 right), Autobot insignia stand

: ''Hybrid Style'' Optimus Prime is an ''insanely'' detailed and complex transforming toy, created under the supervision of famed mecha designer [[Shōji Kawamori]]. Standing only three and three-quarter inches tall in robot mode, the figure is partially constructed from die-cast metal and features one of the most complex transformation sequences ever seen on a ''Transformers'' figure of its size. Alas, the small size of the figure also works against it, as it required several design concessions that resulted in (if we're being nice about it) an unimpressive cab mode.

:Prime is loaded with a ridiculous number of features and accessories. The robot itself is highly poseable, and both the smokestacks on Prime's shoulders and the fuel tanks on his legs can be rotated forward to act as guns, even featuring sculpted detail to this effect. As ever, he comes with a trailer that opens up into his crazy-detailed Combat Deck, featuring more action features than ever before. In trailer mode alone, it features a flip-down support stand so it can stand alone, a spring-loaded pop-out ramp instead of a fold-down one, and when the trailer is split for transformation, the traditional support legs underneath automatically swing out into place. The trailer houses most of Prime's accessories, including his ion blaster (with a moveable ammo clip to allow for multiple poses) and energon-axe, as well as his classic gas pump accessory, now with a poseable wire instead of a rubber hose. Two fold-out compartments provide storage space for six of Prime's interchangeable fists, while the other two remain attached the robot: two clenched, two open, a pointing right fist, a tilted left fist (for holding the ion blaster's ammo clip), and two fists with slots to grip the miniscule Matrix of Leadership that fits in a tiny chamber in Prime's chest. The Combat Deck's artillery robot features two flip-out handles that Prime can grip as if aiming the drone's guns, and Roller is also included, with three different 3mm ports to hold Prime's gun and gas pump. Lastly, Prime comes with a rocket pack like those used by the Autobots in such Generation 1 cartoon episodes as "[[Dinobot Island, Part 1|Dinobot Island]]", and a stand shaped like the Autobot insignia that allows him to be displayed in mid-air, as if in flight. The rocket pack also has 3mm ports for Prime's weapons, and stores on the front of the trailer in vehicle mode.

:Purchase of a ''Hybrid Style'' Optimus Prime at a Japanese [[Toys"R"Us]] store allowed the buyer the option of also purchasing the exclusive ''[[Smallest Transforming Transformers]]'' [[Hot Rod/toys#Smallest Transforming Transformers|Hot Rod]] toy.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2006/Cybertron/HybridConvoy/convoy.htm More information on Hybrid Style Convoy on TFU.info]''
{{-}}
*'''Convoy Black Version''' (2006)[[File:THS-02B G2Convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Yanigerlicious!]]
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''T.H.S.-02B'''
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/Combat Deck, Roller, ion blaster, gas pump, energon-axe, Autobot Matrix of Leadership, rocket pack, 8 fists (4 left, 4 right), Autobot insignia stand, 2 missile launchers, 2 heads

:Available exclusively through e-Hobby, this black and teal repaint of ''Hybrid Style'' Convoy features the traditional "[[Nemesis Prime (disambiguation)|Nemesis Prime]]" color scheme, but represents a version of Optimus Prime himself. In addition to all the original accessories, the toys also includes several more deliciously metatextual goodies, themed around the ''Generation 2'' toy and comics: two new large guns patterned after the new weapons wielded by the ''Generation 2'' Optimus Prime toy, and two additional (blue) Prime heads that can be swapped with the figure's regular noggin, sculpted explicitly in the style of [[Transformers: Generation 2 (Marvel)|''Generation 2'' comic]] artist [[Derek Yaniger]]. One head is pristine, the other decorated to match the battle damage seen on the cover of the [[War Without End!|first ''Generation 2'' issue]].

:As the more franchise-savvy TransFans may realise, these extra parts, plus the black trailer of Convoy Black Version, can all be used to modify the original, red ''Hybrid Style'' Optimus Prime into a comic-accurate ''Generation 2'' version, complete with a black trailer, trailer-mounted guns and your choice of Yaniger-style heads.

:This figure came in a unique box, packaged with a [[Hybrid Style Convoy Black Version|mini-comic]], both illustrated by [[Hidetsugu Yoshioka]].
{{-}}

==Alternators/Binaltech==
[[File:Alternators OptimusPrime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|I don't come with a creepy girl...]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2006)
**''Alternator ID number:'' '''21'''
**''Accessories:'' Engine/gun
: ''[[Transformers: Alternators|Alternators]]'' Optimus Prime transforms into an accurate 1:24 scale Dodge Ram SRT-10. The vehicle mode features rubber tires, functional steering, opening hood, tail gate and doors with a detailed cabin interior. Several of the details of his [[robot mode]] body are based on the sculpt of the 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime figure, but the head itself shares more similarities with the Powermaster mold. He is armed with a small pistol which transforms into his vehicle mode engine.

[[File:Convoy BT.jpg|left|upright=1.4|thumb|...and neither do I...]]
:This figure was originally conceived by Hasbro to be another character (exactly who is unknown), rather than Optimus Prime, but Takara insisted that the toy be made into Optimus to help it sell well in their markets, as the vehicle mode was no particular draw, given its scarcity in Japan. Reportedly, the figure cost twice as much as other Alternators to construct, so Hasbro had to bow to this demand so Takara would help fund it. Ironically, Takara eventually wound up soliciting the figure ''not'' as Prime, but as his ''[[Transformers: Super-God Masterforce (franchise)|Super-God Masterforce]]'' lookalike, [[Ginrai]] (perhaps connected to the Powermasteresque headsculpt), before its Japanese release was cancelled and moved over into the ''[[Transformers: Kiss Players (toyline)|Kiss Players]]'' toyline (see below).

: It took two further years, but this figure was eventually released as part of the Japanese counterpart to the ''Alternators'' line (''Binaltech'') in 2008. ''Binaltech'' Convoy features some additional paint details, like his silver pelvis, additional patterns on his shoulders, and red paint on his engine-gun, and like all ''Binaltech'' figures, he also includes die-cast metal pieces. Unlike previous Binaltech releases, a bio-card was not included.

:This sculpt was also used to create ''Alternators'' [[Nemesis Prime (G1)|Nemesis Prime]]

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2006/Autobot/AltOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Alternators/Binaltech Convoy at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Kiss Players==
[[File:Kiss Convoy toy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|...And yet, I do!]]
*'''Convoy X Melissa''' (2006)
**''Accessories:'' Engine/gun, "[[Surfblade]]" surfboard/sword weapon, [[Marissa Faireborn]] figurine with stand and 2 pairs of arms and legs

: ''[[Transformers: Kiss Players (toyline)|Kiss Players]]'' Convoy is a redeco of ''Alternators'' Optimus Prime. While the figures may appear similar at first glance, given that ''Kiss Players'' Prime is still red, blue and black, there are many subtle differences, not least of all the replacement of the ''Alternators'' figure's bare, flat red plastic with a deep metallic red paint. Several of his body parts are cast in different colors of plastic (for example, his shins, formerly black, are now blue, while his formerly-blue hands are now black), and he features more intricate paint applications on his shoulders, and especially his pelvis, which is decorated to look like Prime's traditional bumper.

:In addition to the small engine-pistol of his ''Alternators'' figure, Prime comes with the "Surfblade", a pink surfboard that can be reconfigured into either two small knives or a large double-bladed sword. As with all the ''Kiss Players'' figures, Prime also comes with a [[plastic|PVC]] figurine of a cute girl: in this case, Marissa Faireborn, who can perch upon his shoulder or sit in his driver's seat, and comes with two pairs of interchangeable arms and legs. Additionally, the set includes a CD featuring the first five episodes of the [[Transformers: Kiss Players (radio drama)|''Kiss Players'' radio drama]], as well as the exclusive bonus audio adventure, "[[Transformers: Kiss Players (radio drama)#CD collections and special episodes|Someday, Under the Sun]]."

:This set was originally intended to be released under the ''[[Transformers: Alternators|Binaltech Asterisk]]'' line, as "Black Convoy meets Marissa", but this release was cancelled before it was officially even announced.

{{-}}

==Titanium Series==
[[File:TitaniumHeroes WWPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Well he ''is'' a car... in a car ''crash''.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (6" Cybertron Heroes, 2006)
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster, display stand

: Based on Optimus Prime's [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertronian]] form as seen in the [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]] comic book "[[Transformers: The War Within|The War Within]]", this version of Prime transforms into Cybertronian truck. The figure was personally designed by comic artist [[Don Figueroa]], who created the original comic design in the first place, and his signature is left on the figure in the most literal way: the word "DON" can be seen sculpted into the barrel of his silver ion blaster.

:As a ''Titanium'' figure, Prime is made in large part from die-cast metal, but like so many of the other toys in the ''Titanium'' line, his plastic joints have trouble supporting his heavy metal weight. He comes with the generic display stand shared by all of the 6" "Cybertron Heroes", with a unique removable nameplate.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2006/Autobot/TitTWW6OptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Titanium Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}[[File:Titanium war within 2pack.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Now we just need a [[Sherman Dam|dam]]....]]
*'''War Within Optimus Prime vs. War Within Megatron''' (two-pack, 2007)
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster

:This [[Toys"R"Us]] [[exclusive]] ''Titanium'' two-pack includes the previously-released ''War Within'' Optimus Prime figure along with the ''War Within'' [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Titanium Series|Megatron]] Megatron figure and an exclusive [[variant]] cover of ''[[Transformers: The War Within|The War Within]]'' [[The War Within issue 5|#5]].

:As the mass retail release of the last waves of the ''Titanium'' "Cybertron Heroes" figures was delayed for several months, the two-pack version of Megatron was at least initially more widely available than the individually packaged one.

:Despite being mentioned in the joint [[instructions]] leaflet for the set, neither figure includes their display base.

:There appears to be a variant of this two-pack: One version has the Optimus Prime figure more or less identical to its individual release, whereas the other one drops the additional black paint weathering, making him much cleaner-looking.

{{-}}

==Classics==
[[File:ClassicsPrime Voyager.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Rub my symbol, Marissa. Oops, wrong toyline.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Voyager, 2006)
**''Accessories:'' Smokestacks/laser cannon, wind vane/ion blaster

: ''Classics'' Optimus Prime is an all-new modern Optimus Prime design based upon the original Optimus Prime, as is the intention for the ''Classics'' toyline. He transforms into a modern cab-over style truck of made up model, dominated by a large wind vane on his roof. As with most ''Classics'' toys, he features a heat-sensitive [[rubsign]].

:In [[robot mode]], his wind vane transforms into a large ion blaster, and his smokestacks transform into a smaller laser cannon. Additionally, both weapons can combine together to form a double-barrelled over-shoulder weapon.

:Unfortunately, the yellow paint on his forearms tends to flake off.
{{ClassicsOptimusPrimeMold}}

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2006/Autobot/ClassicsOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Classics Voyager Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|UltimateBattle}}
[[File:ClassicsPrime Vs.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|They did me right, [[#20th_Anniversary.2FMasterpiece|once]].]]
*'''The Ultimate Battle''' (Multi-pack, 2006)
**''Accessories:'' Laser rifle

: This ''Classics'' Optimus Prime is a smaller, Deluxe Class figure with a noticeable physical resemblance to Takara's ''[[#Robotmasters|Robotmasters]]'' Prime figure, and a transformation that is about as successful. The figure is armed with a tommy gun-shaped laser rifle that transforms into a turret-like configuration and mounts on the rear of his truck mode, and features a spinning "power punch" action that sees the whole upper half of his torso spin when a button on his back is pressed. Pressing the button "unlocks" the spinning mechanism; pull ''hard'' on the button, and you can lock the torso back into place.

:In the United States, Prime was only available in a special two-pack with a similarly unique ''Classics'' [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Megatron toy]], and the specially-produced "[[Optimus Prime vs Megatron: The Ultimate Battle|The Ultimate Battle]]" DVD (which is, inappropriately enough, entirely about the [[Unicron Trilogy]]). The two-pack (including the DVD) was also available as a [[Walmart]] [[exclusive]] "Bonus Value" version with two randomly selected members of the ''[[Transformers: Cybertron (toyline)|Cybertron]]'' [[Giant Planet Mini-Con Team]], in the combinations [[Overcast (Cybertron)|Overcast]]/[[Longarm (Cybertron)|Longarm]], Overcast/[[Deepdive]] and Deepdive/Longarm. International markets, including European countries, saw the two-pack in a considerably smaller, differently-shaped box that was lacking the DVD case (the DVD was instead made available separately). In addition, Mexico, Singapore and some European countries such as the Netherlands and Hungary also received the two figures on individual cardbacks. For the United States market, the two-pack was [[rebranding|rebranded]] and re-released in [[Transformers: Universe (2003 toyline)|2003 ''Universe'']]-branded packaging later in 2007, available from Dollar General, Big Lots and [[KB Toys]], and ''again'' in [[Transformers (2010 toyline)|2010 ''Transformers'']]-branded packaging in 2011, this time available from Dollar General and Big Bad Toy Store.

:This figure was later ''also'' made available without redeco as part of the "Leader for the Ages" two-pack released under the [[#Transformers (2007)|live-action movie line]] (see below) and saw several redecos for [[#Universe (2008)|''Universe'']] ("Special Edition", below), ''Welcome to Transformers 2010'' ("Sons of Cybertron", above) and [[#United|United]] (below).

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2006/Autobot/ClassicsDVDOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Classics Deluxe Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|20thDVD}}
[[File:DVD 20thPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Discounted at a Walmart near you.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (20th Anniversary DVD Edition, 2006)
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster, Autobot Matrix of Leader, gun mode Megatron, Megatron's scope, stock and silencer, energon-axe, display stand

: Produced to coincide with the 20th anniversary of ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'' and its release on DVD by [[Sony]], this edition of Prime is a redeco of his [[#20th Anniversary|20th Anniversary]] figure. It replaces the original's metallic paint with flatter colors and does away with any and all vacuum-metalized plastic, as well as altering several other small details across the body, like the color of the lights on his feet and chest.

:Prime comes with all the accessories of his previous release, although his ever-changing ion blaster is now somewhat confusingly cast in blue plastic. He features one major additional accessory: an electronic display base sculpted with the image of the Matrix and the Autobot insignia. Pressing the insignia's crest triggers a series of electronic soundbytes, mostly quotes from the movie recited not by original actor [[Peter Cullen]], but by Hasbro's in-house actor, [[Ron Hayden]]: "Autobots, transform and roll out!", "I want you to make a special run to Autobot City," "Megatron must be stopped!", "All we need is a little energon, and a lot of luck," and two samples of the classic [[Transformation#The noise|transformation sound effect]], one ascending, one descending.

:The display stand itself was later redecoed as a mail-in prize for TakaraTomy's ''Transformers 2010'' promotion, intended to be used with ''[[The Transformers: Masterpiece|Masterpiece]]'' [[Hot Rod/toys|Rodimus Convoy]], and again when it was packaged with the "Last Production" run of the Masterpiece Optimus Prime toy.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2006/Autobot/20thDVDOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on DVD Edition Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|PepsiPrime2007}}
[[File:PepsiOptimusPrime.JPG|thumb|upright=1.66|Subservience to Corporate America is the duty of all servile beings.]]
*'''Pepsi Optimus Prime''' (Autobot, 2007)
**''Accessories:'' Left & right fists, ion blaster, trailer

:Inspired by the [[#Generation 1|1985 promotional version]] of Optimus Prime that featured Pepsi stickers on his trailer, this outlandish incarnation of Prime is a slightly altered version of Takara's 2005 [[Pepsi Convoy]] figure (which represented a different character to Prime). The figure was only sold by [[Hasbro Toy Shop]] at various conventions, and given away as a promotional prize by Pepsi, via their [[Mountain Dew]] brand.

:A redeco of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime cab robot sporting an egregious number of Pepsi-themed paint masks and details, Pepsi Prime's differences from Pepsi Convoy are minimal: he features the shortened smokestacks previously seen on the [[#Commemorative Series|Commemorative Series]] release of the mold, the blue pattern on his decals are different (matching the American Pepsi can/bottle look at the time rather than the one used in Japan), and also has a different layout for the Pepsi logo on his right shoulder. Like Pepsi Convoy, he comes with an entirely new trailer unit, specially designed to carry either a single 500ml (16.9 oz) size [[soft drink]] bottle, three 350ml cans, or 12 bottle caps (bottle cap figurines being a common and popular collectible item in Japan). In a first for the Prime mold, the figure's fists store in holes on the underside of the trailer while he is in vehicle mode. His ion blaster (which also stores under the trailer) is the first Hasbro reissue to feature the original, thick-barrel sculpt, which was reinstated to the mold by the ''[[#Transformers Collection|Transformers Collection]]'' release of Prime a few years prior.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2007/Autobot/PepsiPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Pepsi Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Sports Label==
{{anchor|#sportlabel}}[[File:NikemusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Comfortable ''yet stylish'' jogging is the right of all fashionable beings.]]
*'''Convoy featuring Nike Free 7.0''' (2007)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster

:Surely one of the strangest examples of licensed ''Transformers'' products, ''[[Transformers Sports Label|Sports Label]]'' Convoy transforms into a ''shoe''. Something of a [[shellformer]], this baffling incarnation of Prime is colored primarily white and red in his alt mode of a realistic-looking (if notably undersized) Nike Free 7.0 sneaker, complete with gratuitously long real fabric shoelaces. In [[robot mode]], he is made instantly recognizable by his incorporation of some additional blue and silver in predictable areas, and a traditionally Prime-styled head. Less traditionally, and somewhat perversely, Prime's feet are sculpted in the likeness of his own sneaker mode, making it seem like he's wearing himself!

:His gun splits into two halves and stores inside his [[kibble]] in shoe mode; in an undocumented features, it has two handle pegs on opposite sides, so that it can be held either at its far end or halfway along its length. The gun halves can also be plugged together in two different ways.

:This figure was, in fact, the ''only'' mold in the ''Sports Label'' line. It was redecoed into the "Marine Free" version of Prime himself (see below), and given a new head to create ''Sports Label'' [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Sports Label|Megatron]]''

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2007/Cybertron/SLConvoy/convoy.htm More information on Sport Label Convoy at TFU.info]''
{{-}}[[File:Sportslabel convoy marine version.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy featuring Nike Free 7.0 Marine Version'''
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster
:A redeco of the first ''Sports Label'' Convoy, this figure transforms into a white, navy and grey sneaker. Promotional images for the figure depicted its robot mode as white and aqua-blue, but the finished product was visibly darker, produced in shades of off-white and dark teal robot mode. In either coloration, it sure as heck ''looks'' like it should be [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]], but for whatever reason... it ain't.
{{-}}

==Encore==
[[File:Encore convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy''' (2007)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller (grey), 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump

:A new series of reissues means a new release of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime figure, and Takara's ''[[Transformers Encore|Encore]]'' series proved no different. This edition of the figure featured no extra accessories, but it did include the original, thick-barrelled version of Prime's rifle, as reinstated to the mold by the ''[[#Transformers Collection|Transformers Collection]]'' version of the toy a few years prior. Both his blue and red plastics are lighter than normal, though not to the extent of Hasbro's 25th Anniverary releases. Notably, this edition addresses the small but persistent issue of Prime's shoulder-sticker: the figure's shoulders are textured with small bumps, which had, since 1984, made evenly applying the Autobot symbol sticker to his left arm a challenge. ''Encore'' Prime finally replaces the sticker with a tampograph, and also adds one to his right shoulder for symmetry.
{{-}}

==Music Label==

*'''Convoy —playing iPod speaker—''' (2007)
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/iPod dock, 2 fists (left and right), ion blaster
[[File:MusicLabel-toy iPodConvoy.JPG|thumb|upright=1.66|You just paid 140 bucks for a new headsculpt, didn't you? I bet you don't even ''own'' an iPod...]]
: Hot on the heels of their licensing deals with Pepsi and Nike, TakaraTomy got themselves a slice of Apple™ pie and released Convoy —playing [[iPod]] speaker— as part of their small, musically-themed ''[[Transformers Music Label|Music Label]]'' line. This version of Prime is an all-white redeco of the original Generation 1 cab robot, which (much like the "Marine Version" of Prime from the ''[[#Sports Label|Sports Label]]'' line) makes it seem like he ought to be Ultra Magnus. The figure is actually even derived from the retool of the mold created for the original Ultra Magnus figure, as distinguished by the elongated hubcap pegs on the front wheels. Like Pepsi Prime before it, the figure's fists now store in peg holes on the under side of its trailer. The toy lacks any of the original Prime's stickers (even the silver stripe on his chest is now a [[paint operation]]) and includes the original thick-barrelled version of Prime's blaster. The toy features a brand new headsculpt based on the [[#20th Anniversary|20th Anniversary]] Prime figure, given additional poseability not previously seen on the figure by being mounted on a [[ball joint]].

:This, of course, is all secondary to the main draw of the figure: it pulls an all-white trailer, which transforms into a working iPod speaker dock by rotating a substantial wedge of its full length 90 degrees . The dock features three working buttons; power, volume up and volume down, as well as an Autobot sigil indicator light. Included is a wall-plugging (Japanese) A/C adaptor with a long lead that plugs into the reverse of the trailer. Although American importers shouldn't have too much trouble, those living in parts of the world using higher strength A/C current outlets should be warned NOT to simply plug the A/C adaptor in with only a socket adapter, as this will overload the device and fry it completely. Buying the appropriate kind of universal A/C adaptor with advice from an electronics specialty shop is recommended.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2007/Cybertron/MLConvoy/convoy.htm More information on Music Label Convoy at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
[[File:Musiclabelprimewithdock.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZit0FXr95c I'm gonna call you Peanut].]]
*'''Optimus Prime —speakers for iPod—''' (2008)
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/iPod dock, 2 fists (left and right), ion blaster
:Designated "Optimus Prime" rather than the traditional Japanese "Convoy", this figure is a redeco of the previous ''Music Label'' Convoy figure into the character's traditional red, blue and silver color scheme. Unlike previous re-issues of the mold, iPod Optimus Prime's sports a paint application similar to KissPlayers Convoy, having its ABS/PVC parts painted over with a thin layer of his iconic red, white (silver if you will) and blue motif paint applications (with the exception of his iPod docking trailer). This includes his trailer, though the effect is somewhat marred by the large, visible gap on one side. When reconfigured into dock mode, the interior surfaces surrounding the speakers are decorated with black-on-silver techno-patterns as well as three "Optimus Prime" logos. The recessed space also features a stylised, almost [[Frank Miller]]esque, high-contrast portrait of Prime's face, although this is largely covered when an iPod is inserted. The figure comes in identical packaging to the original ''Music Label'' Convoy, save for the addition of a sticker illustrating the different color of its contents.
{{-}}[[File:ExileTransformersSpeakers.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|The right of all sentient beings is... um... what am I promoting now? Wait, a [[wikipedia:Exile (Japanese band)|Japanese pop band]]? Are you kidding me? I need a new agent.]]
*'''{{anchor|EXILE}}EXILE x TRANSFORMERS —speakers for iPod—''' (2008)
**''Accessories:'' Trailer/iPod dock, 2 fists (left and right), ion blaster

:Exclusive to [http://www.ldhshop.jp/ LDH Shop], this redeco of the ''Music Label'' Convoy toy is utterly ridiculous and was created as a promotion for the Japanese pop band [[wikipedia:Exile (Japanese band)|EXILE]]. While Convoy himself has EXILE written on his right forearm, his trailer sports the "Love Dream Happiness" tagline of LDH Inc.[http://www.ldh.co.jp/shopping/index.html], as well as the "EXILE Perfect Year 2008" logo of the "EXILE Perfect Year 2008 Ultimate Best Box" boxset, which was released some months after he was.

:Categorically, it was at this point we learned that neither Takara nor Optimus Prime possess shame.
{{-}}

==Transformers (2007)==
[[File:Movie LeaderfortheAges 2pack.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|The more things change, the more they, uh, get bigger guns.]]
*'''Leader for the Ages''' (Wal*Mart exclusive two-pack, 2007)
**''Accessories:'' Laser rifle

: This Wal*Mart-[[exclusive]] two-pack pairs the deluxe-size ''[[#Classics|Classics]]'' Optimus Prime figure with [[Movie (franchise)|live-action movie]] line's ''[[Fast Action Battlers]]'' [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys|Power Hook Optimus Prime]] toy. Both toys are identical to their original releases, and together represent the Optimus Primes of the oldest and newest generations (at the time) of ''Transformers'', respectively. The movie Prime is designated "2007 Optimus Prime", while the ''Classics'' figure is dubbed "1984 Optimus Prime" (referring not, of course, to the toy, which was produced in 2006, but to the character).
{{-}}

==Diablock==
*'''Diablock Convoy''' (2007)
**''ID number:'' '''01''' ('''Mecha Builder Vol.03''')[[File:DiablockPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66| We have the technology. We can ''rebuild him''. Except, uh.. for his face.]]
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster

:Rounding out a bumper year of Japanese-[[exclusive]] Generation 1 Optimus Primes, the Takara-licensed Kawada brand ''Diablock'' Convoy is a fully transformable Lego-style block building figure similar in premise to the earlier American ''[[Built to Rule]]'' sets. The ''Diablock'' figure, however, easily outstrips the ''Built to Rule'' sets by both being an accurate representation of the toy on which it is based, and being able to transform between modes ''without'' having to be partially disassembled and put back together first.

:Forming a roughly 11-inch figure when fully assembled, ''Diablock'' Convoy is highly articulated, save for his head, which is only able to move up and down. Said head is also by far the most stylised aspect of the figure, with no real attempt to approximate Prime's face or mouthplate, instead featuring only a reversed block that gives the odd impression of a cycloptic eye. It is possibly intended to actually represent his forehead grill, as a yellow block inside his head construction remains barely-visible through a slit in his face, possibly intended to represent the classic toy's yellow eyes.

:The figure's transformation scheme is based on the original G1 figure, the only differences being that the fists are not removed but become the headlights, and instead of flipping backwards inside the chest, ''Diablock'' Convoy's noggin flips forwards with the aid of opening chest windows. A "laser rifle" in the shape of his ion cannon can be built from black bricks, and stickers bearing the Autobot [[Insignia|faction symbol]] can be placed on his shoulders, although this is not recommended as it is designed to permanently stick to multiple tiles which dislodge easily and may damage the sticker.

==Henkei! Henkei!==
[[File:Henkei convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy''' (Voyager, 2008)
**''Japanese ID Number:'' '''C-01'''
**''Accessories:'' Smokestacks/Prime Gun, wind vane/ion blaster

:''Henkei! Henkei! Transformers'' Convoy is a redeco of ''[[#Classics|Classics]]'' Optimus Prime. He features a significantly altered colour scheme, generally to make the toy more closely resemble his appearance in the Generation 1 cartoon and the original toyline. His truck mode features less silver paint striping, but compensates with a [[vacuum metallizing|vacuum-metalized]] grill/fender area. In [[robot mode]] all of his previously grey plastic is replaced with red plastic, with a majority of it being painted silver, chromed, or painted gunmetal gray. He features a different shade of red, blue, and clear blue plastic than the Classics version. Since ''Henkei!'' toys do not feature a heat-sensitive rubsign, ''Henkei'' Convoy has two Autobot sigils tampographed onto his shoulders.
{{-}}
[[File:Henkei clear convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy Clear Version''' (Voyager, 2008)
**''Accessories:'' Smokestacks/Prime Gun, wind vane/ion blaster

:This redeco of ''Henkei'' Convoy is cast almost entirely in translucent colored plastic. Also known by the nickname "Crystal Convoy" among fans, it was first released as an exclusive for the Japanese convention Tokyo Toy Fair 2008, limited to 1000 pieces at the event, but was later made available through [[e-HOBBY]]. It was sold in a monochrome-blue version of ''Henkei'' Convoy's regular packaging.

::*''[http://tfkenkon.com/collection/act491/index.php More information on Convoy Clear Version at TFkenkon.com]
{{-}}{{anchor|HenkeiGold}}
*'''Convoy''' (Voyager, 2008)
**''Accessories:'' Smokestacks/Prime Gun, wind vane/ion blaster

:[[vacuum metallizing|Chromed]] entirely in gold like many other [[Lucky Draw figure]]s before it, this version of Prime was available only through a TV Magazine mail-in promotion held in December 2008, and was limited to only five units, making it one of the rarest officially available Transformers toys in the world.

:Unfortunately, this toy has become the target of several [[knockoff]]s aimed at gullible collectors. Most of the fake ones can be told apart from the real deal by various details not matching up. The real one is cast in gold plastic, painted over in gold chrome and sports small red Autobot [[insignia|logos]] on both shoulders.

::*''[http://tformers.com/ig.php?mode=album&album=12878&dispsize=600&start=0 Gallery of (hopefully) a genuine Gold Convoy at TFormers.com]''
{{-}}

{{anchor|GenteiBlack}}
*'''Convoy''' (Voyager, 2008)
**''Accessories:'' Smokestacks/Prime Gun, wind vane/ion blaster
:A (technically) [[unreleased toy|unreleased]] [[black repaint|"black" redeco]] of ''Henkei'' Convoy using the same plastic layout and paint mask but replacing red and blue with black, silver with gray, leaving the previously vacuum-metalized grill/fender area unpainted, changing the blue tint for the windows to red and changing all silver and yellow paint operations to blue. The red Autobot insignias would have remained unchanged.<ref name="blackgentei1">[http://tformers.com/ig.php?mode=album&album=9553&dispsize=800&start=0 Gallery of the unreleased ''Gentei! Gentei'' black Convoy at TFormers.com.]</ref>

:The figure would have come in a monochrome version of the standard ''Henkei! Henkei!'' Convoy's packaging, still named "Convoy" but now labeled as part of the ''Gentei! Gentei'' range of exclusives.<ref name="blackgentei2">[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/universe-classics-20-29/transformers-henkei-wonderfest-exclusive-black-convoy-in-box-167615/ The unreleased ''Gentei! Gentei!'' black Convoy in packaging] at TFW2005.</ref> Reportedly, this figure was intended as a Wonderfest exclusive, but was canceled because, according too [[TakaraTomy]] designer [[Shogo Hasui]], it was too similar to ''[[Transformers: Universe (2008 toyline)|Universe]]'' [[Nemesis Prime (G1)#Universe (2008)|Nemesis Prime]]. [[Knockoff]]s were later made available, so buyers beware!

:A minor redeco (replacing the Autobot insignias with Decepticon insignias, adding silver paint to the grill/fender area and changing the blue paint operations to teal) [[#UnitedBlack|was eventually released]] as a [[Tokyo Toy Show 2012]] exclusive, now marketed as part of the ''[[Transformers United|United]]'' line.
{{canceledtoy}}

==Universe (2008)==
===Generation 1 Series===
[[File:Universetoy 25th anniversary optimus prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|And the block has returned!!!]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2008)
**''Accessories:'' Laser Blaster, 2 fists (left & right), trailer/Combat Deck, Roller, 4 rockets, hose, nozzle, fuel pump, sound effects module, comic, DVD

:Sold at the rather exorbitant price of $75, this re-release of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime toy is actually one of the most visually different from the other "straight" reissues of the mold, despite Hasbro's assurance that this is the toy you had as a kid. Positively ''anemic'' in comparison with the original toy, this Prime's red parts are visibly paler than usual, while his blue parts are much lighter. This shade of blue extends to both Roller (a lighter blue than his traditional dark shade, yet darker than the lightest the figure has been in its history) and the internal workings of his Combat Deck, which is itself a much flatter shade of light grey, compared to its normal dark, swirled metallic silver color. In addition, the toy features the now-customary shortened smokestacks, and the elongated missiles seen on the [[#Commemorative Series|Commemorative Series]] release. While all reissues of the Prime mold since 2003 have used the original thick-barreled mold for his ion blaster, this version includes the slender sculpt instead.

:As a 25th anniversary set, Prime includes several new pack-in bonuses: a reprint of the [[The Transformers (issue)|first issue]] of the original [[Marvel Comics|Marvel]] [[The Transformers (Marvel comic)|comic book]], a DVD containing all three parts of the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|animated series]] pilot [[More than Meets the Eye (mini-series)|"More than Meets the Eye"]], and three desktop wallpapers, and a battery-powered Autobot symbol that plays transforming sound effects, part of the first version of the ''Transformers'' [[theme song]], and three voice clips performed by Peter Cullen: "I am Optimus Prime!", "Autobot, transform and roll out!" and "Megatron must be stopped, no matter the cost."

:The international release was repackaged in a thinner rectangular box. It contained all the original accessories from the American release, but not the DVD. In addition, there are some reports that the Autobot symbol could be worn out or damaged during the time of purchase. In Australia, it was initially a Meijer exclusive, but later found its way to Toys R US and finally (at roughly 70% off the initial $100 price tag) K-Mart and Target.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/25thOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on 25th Anniversary Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}
[[File:Uni2008-toy SEOptimusPrime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
{{anchor|UniSpecEd}}
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Deluxe Class: Special Edition, 2008)
**''ID Number:'' '''SE-01'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser rifle

:"Special Edition" Optimus Prime is a redeco of the ''Classics'' multi-pack toy, featuring some minor paint detail changes, bluer translucent plastic, darker and cooler gray plastic, and darker metallic flake red and blue plastic, with his (previously black-only) rifle body most notably now being cast in both blue ''and'' black plastic. He came in special "book box" style packaging with black-and-white boxart, and was only available at retail in Australian and Asian markets. North American customers could later buy him via [[Hasbro Toy Shop]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2008/Autobot/HTSOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Special Edition Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

===Titanium Series===
[[File:Titanium-toy Target OptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Yawn.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (6" Cybertron Heroes, 2009)
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster, display stand

: A [[Target]]-exclusive [[redeco]] of War Within Optimus Prime in [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|live-action film]]-inspired colors. The bio on the back of the packaging only fills up half of the allotted space, as if the [[Forest Lee|writer]] was tired of describing Optimus Primes.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2009/Autobot/TitOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Target-exclusive Titanium Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}

==Alternity==
[[File:AlternityConvoy VibrantRed.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|It's like G2 Go-bots all over again...but cooler!]]
*'''Convoy Ultimate Silver''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''A-01'''

:''[[Transformers: Alternity|Alternity]]'' Convoy transforms into a 1:32 scale Nissan GT-R, featuring die-cast metal parts, an opening hood, trunk and doors, as well as an interior, complete with his feet and thighs being sculpted to form the back seats. This complex figure stands at 6.5" tall, and is armed with a pair of blasters on each arm. In the hyper-dimensional world of the oft-confusing ''Alternity'' fiction, this figure specifically represents the Optimus Prime of [[universal stream]] [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#Binaltech|Primax 903.0 Beta]].

:The mold suffers from a [[Design flaw|minor design oversight]], wherein the rear Nissan badge collides with his left leg strut when the left foot is hinged over and pegged into a clear plastic socket during transformation, with the results being that the connection is slightly crooked, isn't very secure, and sometimes pops off, and that the crooked pegging often causes the socket to crack.

:''Alternity'' Convoy was simultaneously available in both this silver coloration, and a deco based on his traditional appearance termed "Vibrant Red" (see below). The figure was later redecoed to create "[[Nemesis Prime (Universe)#Alternity 2|Convoy Super Black]]" (representing not Optimus Prime, but ''[[Transformers: Universe (2003 franchise)|Universe]]'' [[Nemesis Prime (Universe)|Nemesis Prime]]), ''Alternity'' [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys#Alternity|Ultra Magnus]] and ''Alternity'' [[Dai Atlas (Zone)#Alternity|Dai Atlas]].

*'''Convoy Vibrant Red''' (2009)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''A-01'''

:"Vibrant Red" ''Alternity'' Convoy is a redeco of the "Ultimate Silver" figure in the much more traditional red and blue Prime color scheme, representing the Optimus Prime of universal stream [[Primax 109.0 Beta]]. The figure was available simultaneously with the Ultimate Silver version, sharing the same packaging and pack-in materials, save for the color of the illustration on the front of the box, and a sticker that identified the figure within.
{{-}}

==Transformers (2010)==
[[File:TF2010 Deluxe G2OptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|[[Fandom|We]] see a red truck, and we want it [[Black repaint|painted]] [[Scourge (RID)|black]].]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Deluxe Class, 2011)
**''Accessories:'' Sword

: Part of the sixth wave of the [[Transformers (2010 toyline)|2010 ''Transformers'' toyline]], this Optimus Prime is an all-new Deluxe class mold based on the original ''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]]'' Laser Optimus Prime toy ([[#LaserOptimusPrime|see above]]). Transforming into a racing truck, he has some influences from the [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|live-action movie Optimus Prime]], including the more defined flames on his hood, athletic [[robot mode]] proportions and a more aggressive-looking translucent orange sword that can be held with both hands for maximum extreme chopitude. Optimus Prime features extensive use of translucent plastic in his arms, head and upper torso for a [[light-piping]] effect. Optimus also has a (non-detachable) matrix gimmick in robot mode that is formed by a relief pattern on the inside of the cab's side windows and is visible through the windshield/chest in robot mode. Like the Legends toy, he's part of "[[Reveal the Shield]]" and features a [[rubsign]], this time on the roof. He is also ''very'' articulated and poseable, even featuring ankles and wrists that are both [[Ball joint|ball-joint]]ed ''and'' [[Swivel joint|hinged]].

: The original Hasbro [[Stock photography|stock photos]] depict him as having red [[paint operation]]s on his kneecaps and the sunken ridges around his blue abs that the final product lacks. The photos on the cardback show him with a red Autobot symbol on his truck door and blue plastic instead of grey for the piece just in front of his rear tires. The back photo also depicts his side windows as being the same translucent orange as the front ones, when they are, in reality, a garish solid orange.

: Multiple reports suggest that the toy suffers from a [[design flaw]], inferior plastic quality, or both: Due to his hands having peg-holes that are a bit too small to accommodate 5mm posts, they have a tendency to show stress marks on the inside after pegging his sword handle (or most other pegs) inside. Stress marks also tend to appear near his tiny hinged wrists. Fortunately, there have been no reports of the hands actually ''breaking'' on either location thus far.

: This toy was redecoed into ''[[Transformers Timelines (toyline)|Timelines]]/[[Transformers: Shattered Glass (toyline)|Shattered Glass]]'' [[Optimus Prime (SG)#BotCon2012|Optimus Prime]] and ''Timelines'' [[Scourge (RID)#Timelines|Scourge]], and was retooled into ''Timelines/Shattered Glass'' [[Ultra Magnus (SG)#Timelines|Ultra Magnus]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2011/Autobot/RTSOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on "Reveal the Shield" Deluxe Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|2010Legend}}
[[File:TF2010-toy Legends Optimus Prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|YOU'LL NEVER GUESS HIS TRUE ALLEGIANCE!]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Legends Class, 2011)

:[[Legends Class (2005)|Legends Class]] Optimus Prime is based on his original Generation 1 appearance, with a transformation almost identical to his original toy, He features a [[Kibble#"Faux-parts"|fake grill]] for his robot mode, and his large legs result in a fairly thick and compact truck bed. He is part of "[[Reveal the Shield]]", a subline that outfits all its toys with [[rubsign]]s, and in this case, it's located on the left side of the truck/his left elbow.

:This figure was redecoed and retooled into ''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' [[Motormaster (G1)#Generations|Motorbreath]] and [[Transformers (2014 toyline)|''Transformers'' (2014)]] [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys#Transformers (2014)|Ultra Magnus]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2011/Autobot/RTSLegOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on "Reveal the Shield" Legends Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|mp10hasbro}}
[[File:Transformers2010toy-HasbroMP10OptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=2.2|Standing tall and proud with his smokestacks erect.]]
*'''Masterpiece Optimus Prime''' (2012)
**''Accessories:'' [[Ion blaster#Transformers (2010)|Ion cannon]], [[Matrix of Leadership/toys#mp10hasbro|Matrix of Leadership]], [[Energon-axe#Tranformers (2010)|Energon axe]], [[Combat Deck (G1)#Transformers (2010)|trailer/Battle Station/Maintenance Dock]], [[Roller (G1)#Transformers (2010)|Autobot Roller]], [[Spike Witwicky (G1)#Transformers (2010)|Spike Witwicky figurine]]
:The Hasbro [[Toys"R"Us]]-exclusive release of [[#mp10|MP-10 Convoy]] features brighter blue plastic and paint, brighter unpainted non-metallic red plastic, painted yellow lights above the front truck windshields, painted light blue eyes, and lacks silver paint for the trailer's interior. Roller is now blue.

:In the Philippines, this was only available as a Toys"R"Us "Limited Edition" figure in the Trinoma mall from August 23–26, with customers having to sign up to reserve their figure. It was limited to 48 units total, and was limited to one per customer.

:Hasbro Asia re-released this in 2014. It came with an exclusive addition - the [[Key to Vector Sigma#Masterpiece|Key to Vector Sigma]]

{{-}}{{anchor|DollarLegends}}
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Legends Class, 2012)
:*''Accessories:'' Sword (running change variant only)
:The [[Transformers (2010 toyline)|2010 ''Transformers'']] "[[Reveal the Shield]]" [[Legends Class (2005)|Legends Class]] Optimus Prime sculpt in the deco from the first ''[[Transformers Chronicle|Chronicle]]'' EZ Collection wave (see below) was released as a "Dollar Store" exclusive (available at stores such as Dollar General and Big Lots) in generic 2010 ''Transformers'' packaging packaging alongside [[Starscream (G1)/toys#DollarLegends|Starscream]], [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#DollarLegends|Bumblebee]] and [[Megatron (G1)/toys#DollarLegends|Megatron]]. The initial release saw the copyright year removed, while a later [[variant#running changes|running change variant]] featured the new tooling originally used for ''Generations'' Legends Class [[Motormaster (G1)#Generations|Motorbreath]], with not only the retooled hands and a hole on the back of his head/top of his [[alternate mode|vehicle mode]] compatible with [[C joint|3mm posts]], but also Motorbreath's sword accessory.

{{picsneeded}}
{{-}}

==United==
[[File:Unitedtoy cybertron mode prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|See?! War for Cybertron ''is'' G1!]]
*'''Optimus Prime Cybertron Mode''' (Deluxe, [[December 25|12-25]]-[[2010]])
**''Japanese ID number'': '''UN-01'''
**''Accessories'': "Assault rifle"

: The first toy in TakaraTomy's ''[[Transformers United|United]]'' toyline is a [[redeco]] of the ''[[Transformers: War for Cybertron (franchise)|War for Cybertron]]'' [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Generations|Optimus Prime]], transforming into a Cybertronic "armored truck". As has been TakaraTomy's wont of late, he now sports a metallic red paint job, with brighter pink paint applications and cooler grey parts, and features several additional paint details to those present on the Hasbro figure in the form of black chest windows and pink lines on his face mask. His rifle transforms as well, folding and plugging into the roof of the vehicle mode. The rifle can also peg into his forearms, and, in its compact configuration, can attach to his shoulders via peg holes on the backs of his front tires or stored behind his back in [[robot mode]].

: This mold was also used to make ''United'' [[Darkside Optimus Prime (United)|Darkside Optimus Prime]].

{{-}}{{anchor|UnitedEarth}}
[[File:Unitedtoy g1prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Deluxe, 12-25-2010)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''UN-06'''
**''Accessories:'' Laser rifle

:The second Optimus Prime toy in TakaraTomy's ''United'' toyline is another redeco of the ''Classics'' multi-pack toy, this time featuring an extensive metallic paint job among other plastic color changes.

:Although the stock photo (pictured from the right) shows that his Autobot insignia is tampographed on his left shoulder, the final product places the insignia on his left forearm, just like his Classics figure.

{{-}}{{anchor|UnitedG2}}
[[File:Unitedtoy laser prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Laser Optimus Prime''' (Deluxe, [[March 26|3-26]]-[[2011]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''UN-22'''
**''Accessories:'' "Laser Rod" sword

:The third ''United'' Optimus Prime toy is a redeco and slight retool of the deluxe Prime figure from Hasbro's 2010 ''Transformers'' toyline, itself an homage to Prime's ''Generation 2'' "Laser" form. The toy features translucent blue plastic as opposed to Hasbro's orange, red paint is used on the biceps instead of blue paint, extra red paint applications on the knees like the original's sticker detail, and more broken-up red apps on the shoulders. Silver detailing was added to the cab mode on the grill, the bumper, and near the doors. The blue plastic in cab mode is now black plastic to make the figure more accurate to the ''Generation 2'' original. The gray plastic is changed from the Hasbro version to more closely match the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#G2reissue|2006 reissue of Laser Optimus Prime]]. Black paint was applied to the cab mode to mimic the fade from red to black on the original Laser Optimus, but still includes a flame deco like the Hasbro version, only in a different design. It lacks the roof-mounted rubsign of the Hasbro version, instead including Autobot insignias on the cab doors. (Disappointingly, they are Generation 1 insignias, rather than ''Generation 2'' ones!) Additionally, a retool was made to the peg on the inside of his right shoulder, to make it shorter and wider than the Hasbro version, allowing it to move freely without hitting the torso, unlike the Hasbro release.

{{-}}{{anchor|UnitedBlack}}
[[File:Unitedtoy-BlackOptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Shouldn't be hard for him to fit in with the Decepticons... There's like, [[Nemesis Prime (G1)|two]] [[Darkside Optimus Prime (United)|other]] "evil Optimus Prime" guys in their ranks.]]
*'''Black Optimus Prime''' (Voyager, 2012)
**''Accessories:'' Smokestacks/blaster, wind vane/cannon

:Available [[exclusive]]ly at the [[Tokyo Toy Show]] 2012 (along with [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Shining|''Prime'' Shining Optimus Prime]]), Black Optimus Prime is a very minor redeco of the previously unreleased [[#GenteiBlack|''Gentei! Gentei!'']] black version of [[#Henkei! Henkei!|''Henkei! Henkei!'' Convoy]], itself a redeco of the [[#Classics (2006)|''Classic'' Voyager toy]]. As such, Black Optimus Prime is mostly cast in black plastic, with some gray parts, translucent red windows and teal paint operations.

:The only differences with the unreleased version, aside from the packaging, are that silver paint has been added to the previously unpainted grill/fender area, the blue paint operations have been changed to teal, and the red Autobot insignias have been replaced by purple Decepticon ones. Prime's [[bio]] apparently explains that he took on this new color scheme in order to infiltrate the Decepticon ranks, in response to recent attacks by some new Decepticon forces pretending to be Autobots.

::*''[http://higekumatoytoy.blog60.fc2.com/blog-entry-1579.html Black Optimus Prime at Alfes's Toy Blog (part 1)]''
::*''[http://higekumatoytoy.blog60.fc2.com/blog-entry-1580.html Black Optimus Prime at Alfes's Toy Blog (part 2)]''
{{-}}

==Chronicle==
[[File:EZCollectionChronicleConvoyToy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy''' (EZ Collection, 2011)
:A ''veeery'' slight [[repaint]] of the [[#2010legend|2010 Reveal the Shield]] Legends figure, the first ''[[Transformers Chronicle|Chronicle]]'' Prime replaces that figure's rubsign with a tiny tampographed Autobot symbol on his left bicep. He was one of eight figures available in the first wave of "EZ Collection" blindpacked figures.

{{-}}{{anchor|G1MoviePrime}}
[[File:Chronicle ehobby primes.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Evolution takes place!!! Oh... [[Optimus Primal|wait]]...]]
*'''G1 Optimus Prime & Movie Optimus Prime''' (multi-pack, 2011)
**''ID number:'' '''CH01'''
**''Accessories:'' [[Ion blaster|Laser rifle]], trailer

:This reissue of the original Generation 1 Optimus Prime figure comes in a two-pack with the Deluxe-Class ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)|Dark of the Moon]]'' [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Chronicle|Optimus Prime figure]]. Prime himself is almost identical to the ''Encore'' release, save for his trailer hitch which was retooled to allow a peg to be inserted within it while still being able to be inserted into the trailer itself (making it compatible with his G1 trailer and the new trailer included). Like the Encore release, he features lighter colors and tampographed shoulder symbols (which vary slightly from the Encore release).

:His original trailer is not included with the set; instead, he comes with [[Armored Weapons Platform#Chronicle|a new deluxe-scaled trailer]], not available with any other figure, based on the one towed by Prime in ''Dark of the Moon''. The trailer is compatible with both figures, and sports [[5mm post]]-holes that will hold (among many other things) G1 Prime's laser rifle and the [[MechTech]] weapon Movie Prime is armed with.

{{-}}{{anchor|ChronicleEZG2}}
[[File:Chronicletoy ez g2 prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy''' (EZ Collection, 2011)
:Reveal the Shield Legends Prime was redecoed again for inclusion in the second EZ Collection wave. This version of the figure replaces his blue with black, and like the Megatron redeco in the same wave, features a ''Generation 2'' Autobot symbol instead of a Generation 1 insignia.

{{-}}

==Kre-O==
{{Note|This section only lists Generation 1-inspired Optimus Prime Kre-O toys.}}
[[File:TF-Kre-O-G1-Optimus-Prime-Kreon.jpg|upright=1.33|thumb]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2011)
**''Set number'': '''30689'''
**''Pieces'': '''542'''
**''Kreons'': Optimus Prime, Skywarp, Bluestreak, Stunt Driver x2
**''Accessories'': Optimus rifle

: Available with the larger Optimus Prime Kre-O kit, this Kreon of Optimus Prime is based on his Generation 1 counterpart.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2011/Autobot/Kre-OOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|90pc}}
[[File:KreO OptimusPrime small.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.66|So come on down to South Park and meet some friends of mine.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2011)
**''Set number'': '''31143'''
**''Pieces'': '''90'''

: The smaller optimus Prime Kre-O kit is loosely based on the [[Optimus Prime (G1)|original Optimus Prime]], transforming into a cabover truck. He comes with no Kreons.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2011/Autobot/Kre-OSmallOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on "small" Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Matrix}}
[[File:Kre-O Matrix Optimus Prime.jpg|right|thumb|upright=0.85|If you even ''thought'' about Transformers in 2011, you probably have two of me.]]
*'''Matrix Optimus Prime''' (2011)
**''Pieces'': '''10'''
**''Accessories'': Optimus rifle

: Intended to be [[exclusive]] to [[BotCon 2011]], this redeco of the regular Optimus Prime Kreon has an open chest showing the [[Matrix of Leadership]] within. He comes with a G1 inspired gun and a black brick display stand. We say "intended", because in actuality, the thing appears to have been produced in such huge quantities that it's wound up being made available in ''loads'' of other places—it was handed out at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2011, offered as a free giveaway with any order that included Transformers toys on [[Hasbro Toy Shop]]), as a free gift on the cover of the ''[[Awesome Autobots Activity Book]]'', and came as a free gift attached to, of all things, issue #240 of the [[United Kingdom|UK]] children's comic, ''[[Doctor|Doctor Who Adventures]]'' (but not the UK's [[Transformers (Titan Magazine)|Transformers comic]], you'll note!). A supposed factory error even caused this version (minus display stand) to be included in the larger Optimus Prime kit (see above). This problem has (presumably) been fixed, but it was awesome while it lasted.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2011/Autobot/Kre-OMatrixOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Matrix Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Custom}}
[[File:KreO-Toy OptimusCustomKreon.jpg|right|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Custom Kreon, 2013)
**''Set number'': '''A6085'''
**''Pieces'': '''41'''
**''Accessories'': Rack, large rifle, ray pistol, robot sword, wing-backpack, rocket-backpack

: Part of the first assortment of "Custom Kreons", this version of Optimus Prime comes with a buildable parts rack on which to hang/store his many many extra pieces. His [[tampograph]]s are much more heavily-detailed than the original Kreons, based on the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 1|original Optimus Prime toy]]. His "normal" helmet (and small sword) are [[chrome]]d, plus he comes with an extra clear-plastic helmet, torso and legs. He also has a pair of extra arms (originally from the ''Kre-O Battleship'' aliens), plus a buildable large rifle, a buildable wing-pack, and a ray pistol (originally an Andorian blaster from ''Kre-O Star Trek'').

{{-}}{{anchor|OrionPax}}
[[File:Kre-O-character-encyclopedia-orion-pax-kreon.jpg|thumb|upright=1.33]]
*'''Orion Pax''' (2014)
**''Pieces'': '''10'''
**''Accessories'': Optimus rifle, transparent block, brick display stand

:Available only with the ''[[Transformers: Kre-O Character Encyclopedia]]'', Orion Pax is a Kreon version of Orion Pax from "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]". He uses the [[Ironhide (Kre-O)|Ironhide]] helmet and the original Optimus Prime Kreon's gun. The transparent block which he can hold has "KREO" written on it in [[Cybertronian language#Notes|Autobot text]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2014/Autobot/Kre-OOrionPax/orionpax.htm More information on Orion Pax at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Elite}}
[[File:Kre-o-Elite-Optimus-Prime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.67]]
*'''Elite Optimus Prime''' (2014)
**''Acessories'': Optimus rifle
:A polybag with buildable Optimus Prime with larger hands and legs on a Kreon sized torso, much like the Galvatron in the Factory Battle set. His helmet is completely unpainted.

:This figure was given our at Toys R Us Canada during build-a-figure event while Asian countries saw very limited release.

{{-}}{{anchor|SDCC2014}}
[[File:Kre-o-class-of-84-optimus-prime-kreon.jpg|thumb|upright=1.33]]
*'''Kreon Class of 1984''' (Kreon figure set, 2014)

: This version of Optimus, voted "Most Likely To Succeed" by the [[Kreon Class of 1984]], has much more toy-based [[tampograph]]s than his prior version.

:He was only available in a pack of 30 Kreons dubbed "Class of 1984". This set was made for sale at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2014. Remaining stock will be sold at [[Hasbro Toy Shop]] online.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2014/Autobot/SDCCKre-OOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Class of 1984 Optimue Prime at TFU.info]

{{-}}
====Gashapon====
{{anchor|Gashapon}}
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Transformers Kreon Gashapon, 2013)
**''Accessories'': ray pistol

:Part of Takara Tomy A.R.T.S' Transformers Kreon capsule toy assortment, this individual Optimus Prime Kreon is identical to the first Custom Kreon. Except that he reuses the transparent helmet and the ray pistol.

====Battle Changers====

{{-}}{{anchor|BattleChangers}}
[[File:Kre-o-battle-changers-optimus-prime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|''(Individual version pictured)'']]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Battle Changers, 2015)
**''Set Number'': '''B0715'''
**''Pieces'':''89''
**''Accessories'': Optimus rifle

:Part of the new Battle Changers line, Battle Changers Optimus Prime transforms from truck into a robot and back without removing any parts!

:Like the rest of the Battle Changers, he is available in selected Asian countries since December 2014.

{{-}}{{anchor|BattleChangersOptimusVSMegatron}}
[[File:Kre-O-Battle-Changers-2-pack-Optimus-Prime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|''(2-pack version pictured)'']]
*'''Optimus Prime VS Megatron''' (Battle Changers 2-pack, 2015)
**''Set Number'': '''B1506'''
**''Pieces'': ''198''
**''Accessories'': Optimus rifle, trailer

:Available in a two pack set with [[Megatron (Kre-O)#BattleChangersOptimusVSMegatron|Battle Changer Megatron]], this Optimus is largely the same as as the single release, with some minor differences. He uses a new "double harness" piece on his torso instead of using two harnesses, leaving more space for his head to grip the neck-post. He also has different windshield decals, and his reds and blues are slightly darker. And, most obviously, he has an additional buildable trailer, though it doesn't really attach to the truck mode in any meaningful way.
{{-}}

==EZ Collection Gum==
*'''Convoy''' (EZ Collection, [[July 30|7-30]]-[[2012]])
**''ID number'': '''1'''

: [[EZ Collection#Transformers: EZ Collection Gum|''EZ Collection Gum'']] Convoy is another redeco of ''Generations'' Legends Class [[Motormaster (G1)#Generations|Motorbreath]], featuring the retooled parts, but this time omitting the sword. He is decoed once again in his ''Generation 2'' colors (see above), with the black legs, but uses metallic red plastic, and is coated in metallic red, blue, and black paint. As per the toyline's name, he comes with a yellow candy-shelled piece of lemony-flavored gum.

{{picsneeded}}
{{-}}

==Generations==
{{anchor|UltimateGiftSet}}
[[File:Generationstoy-UltimateGiftSet-CombatHeroOptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|He hasn't found this suit in 17 years!]]
*'''Ultimate Gift Set''' (2012)
:*''Accessories:'' Sword

:''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' "'''Combat Hero Optimus Prime'''" is a metallic-blue, gunmetal, and red redeco of ''United'' [[#UnitedG2|Laser Optimus Prime]], having the retooled tab, and being based on the canceled ''Generation 2'' [[#CombatHeroOptimusPrime|Combat Hero Optimus Prime figure]], sporting a red mouthplate inspired by the official catalog image for the unreleased toy (packaged samples had featured a traditionally colored gray mouthplate). He comes packed with a (vaguely) ''Generation 2''-styled Deluxe Class [[Jazz (G1)/toys#UltimateGiftSet|Autobot Jazz]], as well as unchanged releases of ''Generations'' Legends Class [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#UltimateGiftSet|Thundercracker]] and [[Motormaster (G1)#UltimateGiftSet|Motorbreath]].

:The Ultimate Gift Set is exclusive to online retailers in the United States, but is available at general retail in Asia.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Autobot/GenUGSOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Combat Hero Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|GenerationsLegends}}
[[File:Generationstoy-T30-LegendsOptimusPrimeRoller.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Say hello to my little friend, and Roller.]]
*'''Optimus Prime & Autobot Roller''' (Legends Class, 2013)
**''Series / Number'': '''02 / #001'''
**''Accessories'': Ion Blaster

:Part of the third wave of 2012-onwards ''Generations'' Legends Class toys, ''[[Thrilling 30]]'' Optimus Prime is a new mold that is roughly the same size as a ''[[Cyberverse]]'' Commander Class toy. Both his truck and [[robot mode]] are based on his [[Don Figueroa]]-designed body from [[IDW Publishing|IDW's]] [[The Transformers (IDW)|ongoing series]], and features [[5mm post|5mm-compatible]] hands and roof. He comes with an [[Ion blaster#Legends|Ion Blaster]] which has both 5mm and 3mm posts.

: He comes with "[[Roller (G1)#Generations|Autobot Roller]]", who can transform into a six-wheel armored SUV, a robot with [[C joint|3mm-compatible]] hands, and a weapon with a 5mm handle. He has a 5mm hole in vehicle mode and a 3mm hole in weapon mode for mounting the Ion Blaster.

: Not depicted in the instructions or stock photos, Roller can attach to Prime in vehicle mode via two tabs on the vehicle front which slot into two corresponding slots on Prime's feet. Another undocumented feature is that the butt of the Ion Blaster can be inserted between the barrels of Roller's weapon mode to form a longer weapon. Also not shown in the instructions but depicted on the stock photo on the card-back is that Prime's shoulderpads can be rotated up; the intended positioning for this is notched, although you can position them at other angles.

: This mold was also used to make ''Generations'' [[Nemesis Prime (G1)#Generations|Nemesis Prime]], and retooled into [[Huffer (G1)|Huffer]] and [[Pipes (G1)|Autobot Pipes]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Autobot/GenOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on ''Thrilling 30'' Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|Deluxe}}
[[File:Generationstoy-T30OrionPax.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|And so my childhood fleets forever more. Shall it return? Quoth the raven: "Nevermore."]]
*'''Orion Pax''' (Deluxe, 2013)
**''Series / Number'': '''02 / #002'''
**''Accessories'': Ion Blaster, Energon Axe

:Part of the fifth wave of 2012-onwards ''Generations'' Deluxe Class toys, ''Thrilling 30'' Orion Pax is a new mold with a robot mode inspired by [[Guido Guidi|Guido Guidi's]] design for the character, originally seen in '[[Spotlight: Blurr]]'. Some liberties have been taken with the original concept to facilitate his truck mode, which is a new design not based on the Guidi art. He comes with his [[Ion blaster#Deluxe|Ion Blaster]] and an [[Energon-axe#Deluxe|Energon Axe]] with a transparent red-orange blade, both of which can peg onto 5mm ports on his hands and vehicle rear sides. Although not depicted on the instructions, the Ion Blaster can also peg into partially-octagonal "hole" on the larger blade of the Energon Axe.

:The American release is packed in with a copy of IDW's '[[Omega's Conundrum|Spotlight: Orion Pax]]', which sports a 'Hasbro Exclusive Cover' cropped from the [[Clayton Crain]] [[:File:SpotlightOP cvrRI.jpg|retailer incentive cover]] for the issue. In Europe and Canada, the figure was released without the Spotlight.

:Most of the first-wave Orion Pax toys released in monolingual English [[packaging]] sport a bizarre [[quality control#Packaging images and labelling|error]]: The [[package art|character art]] on the side of the cardboard insert inside the blister bubble has the character art of Orion's [[wave]]-mate [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Deluxe|Megatron]] superimposed over Orion's own art. This error doesn't appear on the [[Multilingual packaging|European packaging]].

:The toy was later [[Redeco|recolored]] and [[retool]]ed to make both [[Lio Convoy]] and [[Nova Prime]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Autobot/GenOrionPax/orionpax.htm More information on ''Thrilling 30'' Orion Pax at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|SDCCMetroplex}}
*'''Metroplex''' (Titan Class, 2013)
**'''01 OF 30'''

: An [[exclusive]] version of Titan Class [[Metroplex (G1)#SDCC|Metroplex]] was made available at [[San Diego Comic-Con]] 2013. He comes with 12 small, non-transforming figurines of Orion Pax, [[Megatron (G1)/toys#SDCCMetroplex|Megatron]], [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#SDCCMetroplex|Bumblebee]], [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#SDCCMetroplex|Thundercracker]], [[Trailbreaker (G1)#SDCCMetroplex|Trailcutter]], and [[Hoist (G1)#SDCCMetroplex|Hoist]], all in both modes. The figurines are based on their Thrilling 30 ''Generations'' Deluxe Class toys, and similarly to [[Decoy]]s, the Autobot figurines are cast in red plastic, and the Decepticons in purple.

:The handle of Pax's Energon Axe is incredibly thin and unable to support the axe head, meaning the latter tends to droop down in the process.

{{-}}{{anchor|HKACGCONMetroplex}}
[[File:Generationstoy-T30-Metroplex-OrionPax-HKACGCON.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|... And you ''still'' end up playing the thimble in [[Monopoly]].]]
*'''Metroplex''' (Titan Class, 2013)
**'''05 OF 30'''

: Another exclusive version of Titan Class [[Metroplex (G1)#HKACGCON|Metroplex]] was made available at [[Hong Kong ACG-CON]] 2013. This Metroplex also has the 12 figurines of Orion Pax, [[Megatron (G1)/toys#HKACGCONMetroplex|Megatron]], [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#HKACGCONMetroplex|Bumblebee]], [[Thundercracker (G1)/toys#HKACGCONMetroplex|Thundercracker]], [[Trailbreaker (G1)#HKACGCONMetroplex|Trailcutter]], and [[Hoist (G1)#HKACGCONMetroplex|Hoist]], but casts the Autobot figurines in gold plastic, and the Decepticons in silver.

{{-}}{{anchor|OPandBee}}
[[File:TTGenerationsTG24OptimusRoller.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Optimus Prime & Bumblebee''' (Multi-pack, [[September 28|09-28]]-2013)
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''TG24'''
**''Accessories'': Ion Blaster

: The Japanese release of ''Generations'' Legends Class Optimus Prime [[redeco]]es him in an extensive metallic red paint job. He comes in a [[TakaraTomy]] four-pack with [[Roller (G1)#OPandBee|Roller]], as well as [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#OPandBee|Bumblebee]] and [[Blaze Master#OPandBee|Blazemaster]].

{{-}}{{anchor|VSMegatronus}}
[[File:TTGenerationsTG25OrionPaxMegatronus.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Neither of them wants to own up to the fact the Great War started over an argument about getting granite counter-tops for their kitchen.]]
*'''Orion Pax VS Megatronus''' (Multi-pack, [[October 26|10-26]]-2013)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''TG-25'''
**''Accessories'': Blaster, axe

: The Japanese release of ''Generations'' Orion Pax also received a metallic paint job as well as other changes, including a translucent blue windshield and brighter orange axe with a metallic gray handle. He was only available in a two-pack with [[Megatron (G1)/toys#VSOrionPax|Megatronus]].

{{-}}{{anchor|Combiner Wars}}
[[File:GenerationsVoyOP.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Beefcake is the right of all sentient beings.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Voyager Class, 2015)
**'''3 OF 5: [[Ultra Prime]]'''
**''Accessories:'' Two blasters (combine into large rifle)

: Part of the first wave of ''[[Transformers: Generations#Combiner Wars|Generations: Combiner Wars]]'' Voyager Class toys, this is a bigger, bulkier incarnation of Optimus Prime with a striking resemblance to Ginrai. He comes with two blasters which he holds via 5mm post. One of the guns is based on his trademark Ion Blaster, and both weapons store on the back of his vehicle mode as a makeshift engine block. His torso mode has several details that appear to be influenced by [[Optimus Prime (Armada)/toys|Energon Optimus Prime]]'s super mode, including the head, chest, and thighs. In particular, the chest details are modeled after the [[Spark of Combination]].

:Optimus suffers from a design flaw that many other Voyager Class figures in the ''Combiner Wars'' line experience: the detents, or "click points", on the heavily-ratcheted outward motion of his hips (which also form the hips of his torso mode) are few in number and very far apart. As a result, Prime's legs have great difficulty assuming the natural "A-stance" formation that the angled design of his foot sculpt seems to have been meant to accommodate. Likewise, when forming the torso of Ultra Prime, the interactions of the knee-lock mechanism and the hip detents almost always force Ultra Prime's legs into either an awkwardly knock-kneed arrangement or an equally awkward, and often unstable, bow-legged posture (as seen in the image to the right) that prevents Ultra Prime from standing flat-footed.

:Being a ''Combiner Wars'' Voyager, Prime is naturally capable of transforming into a torso mode to combine with any 4 Deluxe Class ''Combiner Wars'' toys, though his packaging call-out has him form Ultra Prime by combining him with Deluxe Class [[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)#Generations|Skydive]] and [[Alpha Bravo]] as the arms, and with [[Fireflight (G1)#Generations|Firefly]] and [[Drag Strip (G1)#Generations|Decepticon Drag Strip]] as the legs.

:Optimus comes packaged with a collector's card featuring art from the initial release of the ''[[Transformers Legends (mobile game)|Transformers Legends]]'' mobile game.

:This mold was [[retool]]ed into [[Motormaster (G1)#Combiner Wars|Motormaster]], and redecoed into ''Unite Warriors'' [[Grand Scourge#Unite Warriors|Grand Scourge]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2015/Autobot/CWOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on ''Combiner Wars'' Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|BattleCoreOP}}
[[File:CWVoyagerBattleCoreOptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|A white Optimus that ''isn't'' [[Ultra Magnus (disambiguation)|Ultra Magnus]]?! What is this madness?]]
*'''Battle Core Optimus Prime''' (Voyager Class, 2015)
**'''3 of 5: [[Optimus Maximus (G1)|Optimus Maximus]]'''
**''Accessories:'' Two blasters (combine into large rifle)

:Battle Core Optimus Prime is a white redeco and slight retool of the previous ''Combiner Wars'' Optimus figure. Per the Hasbro panel at [[BotCon 2015]], his new head is based on Star Convoy (see above). For some reason, his deco appears to be influenced by [[Nova Prime]].

:The figure features newly redesigned hip ratchets to make both robot and combiner mode stable, which were also installed in both TakaraTomy's Motormaster, [[Grand Scourge#Unite Warriors|Grand Scourge]], and a revision wave of Hasbro's Motormaster. The pegs that Legends Class Rodimus (or Blackjack) attach to have also been slightly modified to provide a tighter fit, making the latter toy much less prone to falling out.

{{-}}{{anchor|Titans Return}}
[[File:Titans Return Optimus.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|''An Optimus Prime retooled from an [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]]?'' WHAT IS THIS MADNESS?]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Leader Class, 2016)
**''Accessories:'' Two blasters, two shoulder cannons, 'Apex' Titan Master

:A retool of ''Combiner Wars'' [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys#Generations|Ultra Magnus]], this Optimus Prime is based on the Powermaster Optimus Prime toy. Despite this, he does not have his Powermaster Hi-Q, who has been replaced by his Titan Master Apex, who forms his head.

{{comingsoontoy}}

{{-}}

===Cyber Series===
[[File:Generations-Cyber-Battalion-Optimus-Prime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Cyber Battalion, 2015)
:Part of the new Generations Cyber Battalion series, Optimus Prime is a new mold which stands 7 inches tall, and transforms from a truck (which is based on the Generations Legends Class Optimus Prime) into a robot in just 7 simple steps. The figure's transformation takes cues from the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#2010Legend|Reveal the Shield Legends Class Optimus Prime]] figure.

{{-}}

[[File:Generations-Cyber-Commander-Optimus-Prime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Cyber Commander, 2015)
:This new roughly 11-inch leader-sized mold of Optimus Prime transforms from a robot to trailer/truck combination and back, with the transformation taking cues from both the [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#2010Legend|Reveal the Shield Legends Class]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys#Legion Class|the Robots in Disguise (2015) legion Class]] toys.

{{-}}

==Bot Shots==
[[Image:BotShotstoy-OptimusPrime.jpg|right|thumb|300px|In the beginning, I was... a cube.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''B003'''
***''Fist strength'': '''410'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''850'''
***''Sword strength'': '''370'''

: Part of the first wave of ''[[Bot Shots (toyline)|Bot Shots]]'' Series 1 single-packs, Optimus Prime is a teeny little long-nosed semi truck with "trailer", with a spring-loaded [[Autotransformation|automatic transformation]] to robot mode triggered when his front bumper is pressed. He has a "spinner" in his chest that shows his three attack types and power levels. His truck mode and robot body are influenced by the [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|live-action Optimus Prime]], while his head is taken from the [[Optimus Prime (G1)|original]]. His blue paint is light and sparkly-metallic, his red paint is dull matte, and his optics are yellow.

:This toy was given away free to attendees of Hasbro's "[[Toy Fair 2012|Collector-Fan Media Day" 2012]], slightly altered by a "Toy Fair 2012" sticker applied to the cardback.

:This mold was also [[redeco]]ed to make [[Nemesis Prime (G1)|Nemesis Prime]]. He shares parts with [[Megatron (G1)/toys#BotShotSuperBot|Super Bot Megatron]] and [[Motormaster (G1)|Motorbreath]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Autobot/BSOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on ''Bot Shots'' Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotLauncher}}
[[Image:BStoy-OptimusPrimeLauncher.jpg|right|thumb|300px]]
*'''Optimus Prime Launcher''' (Launcher, 2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''BL001'''
***''Fist strength'': '''920'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''450'''
***''Sword strength'': '''280'''

: Part of the first wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 1 launchers, this [[repaint]] of Optimus Prime comes with a large trailer that pops open to form a battle station with a spring-loaded launching platform. He appears to have the same plastic colors as the single release, and the same set of [[paint operation]]s, but his paint is done in different shades, having glossy dark blue paint and glossy bright red paint. The black part of his launcher is sculpted to look vaguely like the repair done that is part of Generation 1 Optimus Prime's repair bay.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Autobot/BSLOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Launcher Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotBattleForMatrix}}
[[Image:BStoy-BattlefortheMatrix-LauncherOptimusPrime.jpg|right|thumb|300px]]
*'''Battle for the Matrix''' (Multi-pack, 2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''UB001'''
***''Fist strength'': '''835'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''505'''
***''Sword strength'': '''275'''

: This minor [[redeco]] of the Optimus Prime Launcher features grey wheels, blue optics, and added red paint on its upper arms, while the launcher has grey plastic in place of black, smaller Autobot symbols on its sides, and gold paint on its interior instead of silver. The [[stock photography]] on the [[packaging]] depicts Optimus with a blue stripe on his built-in "trailer", which was omitted in the final product.

: The set also comes with [[Megatron (G1)/toys#BotShotBattleForMatrix|Megatron with his launcher]], [[Brawl (Movie)#BotShotBattleForMatrix|Decepticon Brawl]], [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#BotShotBattleForMatrix|Bumblebee]], and a cardboard token representing the [[Matrix of Leadership/toys#Bot Shots|Matrix]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Autobot/BSBFTMOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on "Battle for the Matrix" Launcher Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotSuperBot}}
[[Image:BotShots_SuperBotOptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|right|300px]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2012)
**''Series'': '''1'''
**''Number'': '''Super Bot 004'''
***''Fist strength'': '''330'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''315'''
***''Sword strength'': '''995'''

: Part of the fourth wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 1 single-packs, Super Bot Optimus Prime is a redeco of his toy in translucent blue plastic. As a Super Bot, he was [[Shortpacking|packed one per case]], and has higher, more lopsided stats than normal Bot Shots. He has a really, ''really'' good Sword stat.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2012/Autobot/BSSBOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Super Bot Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotLauncherS2}}
[[Image:BStoy-SpinShotOptimusPrimeLauncher.jpg|right|thumb|300px]]
*'''Optimus Prime Launcher''' (Launcher, 2013)
**''Series'': '''2'''
**''Number'': '''BL001'''
**''Accessories'': 4 [[Energon cube|Energon Cube]] targets
***''Fist strength'': '''820'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''405'''
***''Sword strength'': '''390'''

: Part of the first wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 2 launchers, this new-mold Optimus Prime transforms into a very boxy ''Generation 1''-styled truck with trailer. As a Spin Shot, one manually winds up his upper body beforehand when transforming him into vehicle mode, where striking the front of the vehicle will cause him to burst open and spin while auto-transforming. He comes with a launcher used to propel him to great speeds, as well as four cube targets for him to knock over.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Autobot/BSLOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Spin Shot Launcher Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|BotShotPolarAssaultTeam}}
[[File:BotShots PolarAssault Optimus Prime.jpg|thumb|right|300px]]
*'''Polar Assault Team''' (Multi-pack, 2013)
**''Series'': '''2'''
**''Number'': '''T001'''
***''Fist strength'': '''370'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''945'''
***''Sword strength'': '''310'''

: Part of the first wave of ''Bot Shots'' Series 2 five-packs, this redeco of the original Optimus Prime toy is cast in translucent blue plastic, with his cab painted white. Despite possessing translucent plastic and more lopsided stats than a regular Bot Shot, he is apparently not labeled as a Super Bot. This version of Optimus comes with similarly-themed with new redecos of [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#BotShotPolarAssaultTeam|Bumblebee]], [[Mirage (G1)#BotShotPolarAssaultTeam|Mirage]], [[Ironhide (G1)/toys#BotShotPolarAssaultTeam|Ironhide]], and [[Jetfire (G1)#BotShotPolarAssaultTeam|Jetfire]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Autobot/BSPAOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on "Polar Assault Team" Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}{{anchor|DragonTrack}}
[[File:BotShots Dragon Optimus Prime.jpg|thumb|right|300px]]
*'''Dragon Track''' (Playset, 2013)
**''Series'': '''2'''
**''Number'': '''UB001'''
**''Accessories'': Launcher
***''Fist strength'': '''565'''
***''Blaster strength'': '''325'''
***''Sword strength'': '''725'''

:Available only with the Bot Shots Dragon Track set, this version of Optimus Prime is a new mold, changing from a robot form resembling ''Generation 1'' Optimus Prime, into a truck with a rocket exhaust molded into the back of its trailer. As a Flip Shot, he, er, flips up when auto-transforming. He comes with a launcher that can be connected to the track, as well as [[Megatron (G1)/toys#DragonTrack|Flip Shot Megatron and his launcher]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Autobot/BSDTOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on "Dragon Track" Flip Shot Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}

==BeCool==
[[File:BeCool-B03-Trailer.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Trailer (Optimus Prime)''' (2012)
**''ID number'': '''B03'''

:''[[Bot Shots (toyline)#BeCool|BeCool]]'' "Trailer" is practically identical to the ''Bot Shots'' "Battle for the Matrix" Optimus Prime toy with the blue eyes and red arms, the only difference being that the game stats stickers in his chest spinner have been replaced with pictures of his vehicle mode, two people holding hands and the letters "Zzz..."

:[[TakaraTomy]]'s [[stock photography]] of Trailer, including the pictures used on the box, use the original ''Bot Shots'' Optimus toy with the yellow eyes as a base.

{{-}}{{anchor|GarbageTruck}}
[[File:BeCool-B12-Garbage-Truck.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Garbage Truck (Clean Optimus)''' (2013)
**''ID number'': '''B12'''

:"Garbage Truck" is a redeco of the same Optimus Prime toy in blue and white, a common coloration for Japanese garbage trucks that bears ends up bearing a coincidental resemblance to the ''Bot Shots'' Polar Assault Team Optimus. His stickers now picture his truck mode being loaded with garbage, his truck mode driving around, and the word "cleaning" in both English and Japanese.

: The B12 ID number was previously used for [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys|Special Sports Car]], a limited toy which was only on shelves for three months before being replaced by Garbage Truck.

{{-}}{{anchor|TrailerBase}}
[[File:BS02-BeCool-Trailer-and-Trailer-Base.jpg|upright=1.33|thumb]]
*'''Trailer and Trailer Base (Optimus Prime)''' (2013)
**''ID number'': '''BS02'''

:This Trailer is identical to the original ''BeCool'' Trailer other than the stickers, and now comes with the trailer/launcher accessory from ''Bot Shots'' redecoed in blue with red stripes. While the vehicle mode sticker in his chest remains, the hand-holding and sleeping ones have been replaced by pictures of the launcher: one in base mode and one in trailer mode. He also comes with a sticker sheet for decorating the Trailer Base.

{{-}}

==GT==
{{anchor|GTR}}
[[File:GT-R-Prime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''GT-R Prime''' ([[May 25|5-25]]-[[2013]])
**''Japanese ID number:'' '''GT-01'''
**''Accessories:'' "Impact Wrench Gun", [[Misaki]] race queen figure

: ''[[Transformers GT: Mission GT-R (franchise)|Transformers GT]]'' GT-R Prime is a heavy retool of ''Alternity'' Convoy, transforming into a 1:32 replica of the Motul Autech GT-R race car used by the [[wikipedia:Nismo|Nismo]] team in the [[wikipedia:Super GT|Super GT]] racing championship series. He retains the flip-out blasters of the ''Alternity'' toy and can also wield his new Impact Wrench Gun accessory (also called the "Optimus Rifle" on the ''Transformers GT'' website), a weapon based on the impact wrenches used in car repairs. Like all ''GT'' toys, Prime also comes with a [[GT Sister]], poseable human figures themed after [[wikipedia:race queen|race queens]], his partner being a lady named Misaki.

: GT-R Prime's packaging points out that he can be fitted into ''Masterpiece'' Optimus Prime's trailer to replicate the way actual race cars are transported.

: This mold was also used, with different heads and accessories, to make the other ''Transformers GT'' toys: [[Star Saber (Victory)#GT|GT-R Saber]], [[Megatron (G1)/toys#GT|GT-R Megatron]] and [[Fortress Maximus (G1)#GT|GT-R Maximus]].

{{-}}

==FJ Cruiser X Transformers==
*'''FJ Optimus Prime''' (2013)
**''Accessories:'' spare tire/axe
:Part of a cross-promotion between {{w|Toyota}} and TakaraTomy, the deluxe-sized FJ Optimus Prime transforms into an {{w|Toyota FJ Cruiser|FJ Cruiser}}, with his axe weapon becoming the vehicle's spare tire. The vehicle mode's body panels come packaged on the sprue, and can then be clipped onto the core figure. The mass retail release of FJ Optimus includes yellow and white panels, whilst further color variations were available when purchasing an FJ Cruiser at Japanese Toyota dealerships. As is typical of TakaraTomy exclusives, these variants came in grayscale packaging.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2013/Autobot/FJOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on FJ Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

==Construct-Bots==
[[File:Construct-Bots-Elite-Class-Optimus-Prime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Elite Class, 2013)
: Optimus Prime transforms into a truck-like vehicle. This version is identical to the Ultimate Class two-pack listed below, however this version features transparent plastic for his body armor. He includes a projectile launcher and Energon Axe.

{{-}}

[[File:Construct-Bots-Elite-Class-OPvsM-Optimus-Prime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Optimus Prime vs Megatron''' (Ultimate Class, 2013)
: Optimus Prime's Elite Class toy was packed alongside his eternal nemesis [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Construct-Bots|Megatron]]. This version has opaque colors and a more traditional Optimus color scheme. He includes his weapons from the single release as well as a swathe of extra parts for additional configurations.

{{-}}

==Platinum Edition==
[[File:PlatinumEditiontoy-Year of the horse Optimus Prime.jpg|thumb|upright=2.2|Does not contain any Neil Young.]]
*'''Year of the Horse Optimus Prime''' (2014)
**''Accessories:'' [[Ion blaster#Platinum Edition|Ion blaster]], [[Matrix of Leadership/toys#Platinum Edition|Matrix of Leadership]], [[Energon-axe#Platinum Edition|Energon axe]], [[Combat Deck (G1)#Platinum Edition|trailer/Battle Station]]

:Released to celebrate Chinese New Year, ''[[Transformers: Platinum Edition|Platinum Edition]]'' "Year of the Horse" Optimus Prime is a redeco of MP-10 Convoy, featuring darker reds and gold-chromed parts, among other deco changes. He lacks Roller and the Spike Witwicky figurine.

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2014/Autobot/YotHOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on Year of the Horse Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''
{{-}}{{anchor|YearOfTheGoatOP}}
[[File:TF-Platinum-Edition-YOTG-Optimus-Prime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb|''Don't bother asking for explanations'' <br> ''She'll just tell you that she came'' <br> ''In the year of the <s>cat</s> goat'']]
*'''Optimus Prime Year of the Goat Edition''' (2015)
**''Accessories:'' "Laser cannon", "saber weapon", missile launcher, 10 missiles, 5 discs, 2 rockets

:Released to celebrate the Year of the Goat, ''[[Transformers: Platinum Edition|Platinum Edition]]'' "Year of the Goat" Optimus Prime is a redeco of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#LaserOptimusPrime|''Generation 2'' Laser Optimus Prime]], using the ''Robots in Disguise (2001)'' Scourge mold. Like Year of the Goat Soundwave, Year of the Goat Optimus Prime features an awkward mix of orange, black, clear pink (in some parts including missiles, the discs, and even the pump!), some clear blue (the missile's tips), translucent plastic, and some hint of chrome silver (mostly his trailer parts).
{{-}}{{anchor|PlatinumOPvsMegs}}
*'''One Shall Stand, One Shall Fall''' (2-pack, 2016)
**''Accessories'': Smokestacks/Laser Gun, energy unit/ion blaster

: Released as part of the ''Platinum Edition'' 2-pack with Megatron, this Optimus Prime is yet another redeco of the Classics toy.
{{ClassicsOptimusPrimeMold}}

{{comingsoontoy}}

==Hero Mashers==
[[File:HeroMashers_OptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|right|300px|Modular building is the right of all sentient beings.]]

*'''Optimus Prime''' (Battle Upgrade, 2014)
**''Pieces: '''13'''
: Part of the first wave of battle upgrade Hero Mashers toys, Optimus is a non-transforming robot who can swap any of his parts out with other Hero Mashers figure to create many combinations. He includes his iconic Energon axe, a large projectile-launching gun, another large gun, two missile packs, and an arm for [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys#Hero Mashers|Ultra Magnus]].

::*''[http://www.tfu.info/2014/Autobot/HMOptimusPrime/optimusprime.htm More information on ''Hero Mashers'' Optimus Prime at TFU.info]''

{{-}}
[[File:TF-Hero-Mashers-Electronic-Optimus-Prime.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Electronic Optimus Prime''' (Electronic Action, 2014)
**''Pieces: '''?'''
: Electronic Optimus Prime is an unchanged version of the battle upgrade toy, but with all-new accessories.
{{-}}

==Cloud==
[[File:Cloud Optimus Prime Toy.jpg|right|thumb|300px]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' ([[May 29|5-29]]-2014)
**''ID number:'' '''TFC-A01'''
**''Accessories:'' Smokestacks/Convoy Gun, energy unit/ion blaster

: Optimus Prime is a [[redeco]] of the ''[[#Classics (2006)|Classics]]'' Voyager-class [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Classics (2006)|Optimus Prime]] mold, transforming into a modern cab-over style truck of made up model, dominated by a large "energy unit" on his roof (actually a wind vane). He features a similar Generation 1-inspired deco to the original toy, but aims for a "cleaner" appearance by omitting many paint details such as stripes on the cab, while the energy unit is colored black with a silver Autobot insignia in [[homage]] to [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#Generation 2|Generation 2 Optimus Prime]]. In robot mode, Prime's energy unit transforms into a large blaster and his smokestacks transform into a smaller laser cannon. Additionally, both weapons can combine together to form a double-barrelled over-shoulder weapon. He was available exclusively at [[TakaraTomy Mall]].
{{ClassicsOptimusPrimeMold}}
{{--}}

==Bearbrick==
[[File:Bearbrick OptimusPrime.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Honey is the right of all sentient beings.]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' ([[July 17|7-17]]-[[2014]])

: A special edition [[Bearbrick]] released in celebration of the ''Transformers'' 30th anniversary, Optimus Prime transforms from a Bearbrick painted up like himself to a bear-eared robot. He has no accessories, but holes in his [[robot mode]] hands can accommodate other toys' weapons.

: This mold, with a different head sculpt, was also used for the simultaneously released Bearbrick [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Bearbrick|Megatron]], and also redecoed into ''Age of Extinction'' [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Bearbrick|Optimus Prime]]. It was further retooled into Bearbrick [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#Bearbrick|Bumblebee]] and [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Bearbrick|Starscream]].

{{-}}

==Lost Age==
[[File:LostAge ConvoyAnniversaryClearVer.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy [Anniversary Clear Ver.]''' (EZ Collection, 2014)
:Yet another ''Reveal the Shield'' redeco, Convoy is cast in clear red and black plastic. He has been retooled to include a magnet in his right foot, allowing him to interact with ''Lost Age'' Battle Command [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Lost Age|Optimus Prime]] and ''[[Transformers: Age of Extinction (toyline)|Age of Extinction]]'' Stomp & Chomp [[Grimlock (AOE)#Stomp&Chomp|Grimlock]]. Convoy was available at a variety of 2014 events, including on [[May 3]] at a "Kids Walk" event at {{w|Fuji Speedway}}, in special packaging on [[May 16]] at the "Transformers Celebration 2014" midnight event at the Sunshine City [[Toys"R"Us]] store in {{w|Ikebukuro}}, on [[June 15]] at Tokyo Toy Show 2014, at the Aeon Mall in {{w|Kasukabe}} on [[July 19]], and at the "Transformers Expo" event in {{w|Yokohama}} on [[August 9]].
{{-}}

==Age of Extinction==
[[File:Evolution2PackClassicsOptimus.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|Chrome is the right of all collectors]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Evolution 2-Pack, 2014)
**''Accessories:'' Smokestacks/laser cannon, wind vane/ion blaster
:Only available at [[Toys"R"Us|ToysЯUs]], this Optimus Prime is a redeco of the ''Classics'' figure. He features a cartoon/toy accurate deco on his truck/robot parts, and [[Vacuum metalizing|vacuum-metallized]] upper legs & front grille to evoke his original Generation 1 toy. Like every ''Classics'' Optimus Prime mold, he still features all of his accessories. This Optimus was packaged along with the redecoed Age of Extinction [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Age of Extinction|Optimus Prime]].

{{ClassicsOptimusPrimeMold}}
{{--}}

==Legend Commander Collection==
[[File:Legend-Commander-Collection-LC-01-Convoy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Convoy''' (2014)
**''ID number:'' '''LC-01'''
**''Accessories'': Ion Blaster, Energon Axe
:Part of the ''Legend Commander Collection'' sold at [[Transformers Expo]], Convoy is a redeco of ''Robotmasters'' G1 Convoy. Unlike his first ''Robotmasters'' toy, he does not include a pair of small fists, and his missile launcher.

:Remaining stock was sold through [[TakaraTomy Mall]].

{{-}}

==Optimus Prime Pen==
[[File:OptimusPrimePen.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Transformers Optimus Prime Pen''' (2014)
**''Accessories:'' Ion blaster

: Released in Japan by [[Sentinel (company)|Sentinel]] as part of the 30th anniversary, Optimus Prime Pen is a well-articulated robot that folds into the shape of a rather chunky, but functional ballpoint pen. The tip of the pen is formed from his ion blaster, with the barrel acting as a cap.

: This mold was also used to make [[Nemesis Prime (G1)#Black Convoy Pen|Black Convoy Pen]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys#Ultra Magnus Pen|Ultra Magnus Pen]].

{{-}}
==Transformers (2014)==
[[File:Transformers-2014-legion-class-optimus-prime.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' (Legion Class, 2014)
:Another release of the ''Reveal the Shield'' Legends Class sculpt. The deco for its initial release is unchanged from the ''Transformers'' release from 2012, whereas the tooling is identical to the 2012 release's running change variant, with the retooled hands and a hole on the back of his head/top compatible with [[Cyberverse]] [[C joint|3mm]] pegs. Bizarrely, the [[package art]] is lifted directly from the ''Generations'' Legends Class Optimus Prime/Autobot Roller two-pack's packaging, whereas the [[stock photography|stock photos]] depicted on the back of the packaging are taken from ''Reveal the Shield'' Optimus Prime's packaging and only slightly altered, advertising a "[[Reveal the Shield]]" [[rubsign]] [[gimmick]] the toy doesn't actually have. Meanwhile, Hasbro's official stock photos provided to online retailers (including an in-packaging photo) depict the toy with the sword that came with the running change variant of the sculpt's 2012 release, even though the actual toy doesn't include the sword.

:Legion Class Optimus Prime has been found at Family Dollar and Dollar General stores in the United States. A later [[variant]] repleaced the red Autobot insignia with a black version. This later version was also released at general retail in Australia, New Zealand, Europe and Russia. In Singapore it was released together with [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys#Transformers (2014)|Bumblebee]] and [[Starscream (G1)/toys#Transformers (2014)|Starscream]] as part of the promotion for [[Age of Extinction]] in selected cinemas.

{{-}}

==Nanoblock Motion Choro-Q==
[[File:NanoblockChoroQConvoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy''' ([[December 11|12-11]]-2014)

:Produced as a collaboration between toylines ''[[w:Nanoblock|Nanoblock]]'' and ''[[Choro-Q]]'', this Optimus Prime is a building block toy that can be built into a super deformed robot or truck (or something else, if you want). His truck mode is built on a generic ''Choro-Q'' chassis outfitted with an electric motor and can be remote-controlled using a smartphone app.

{{-}}
==Q-Transformers==
[[File:QTransformers Optimus Prime GT.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Optimus Prime''' ([[January 24|1-24]]-2015)
**''ID number:'' '''QT-09'''

:''[[Q-Transformers]]'' Optimus Prime is [[super deformed]] toy based on the [[#Alternity|''Alternity'' Convoy]] design, transforming into a Nissan GT-R R35, though his legs retain the traditional blue truck bed motif. The English name on the packaging refers to him as just "Optimus". He comes with a code for unlocking "GTR Optimus Prime" as a playable character in the ''[[Q-Transformers: Mystery of Convoy Returns (mobile game)|Q-Transformers: Mystery of Convoy Returns]]'' game.

:Optimus Prime was retooled into ''Q-Transformers'' [[Soundwave (G1)/toys#Q-Transformers|Soundwave]].

{{-}}
[[File:QTransformers Convoy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66]]
*'''Convoy''' ([[April 25|4-25]]-2015, [[January 30|1-30]]-2016)
**''ID numbers:'' '''QT-19''', '''QTF-04'''

:''Q-Transformers'' Convoy is based on his traditional design, transforming into a flat-nose truck with an integrated, non-removable trailer. He comes with a code for unlocking Generation 1 Optimus Prime, under the name "Convoy", in ''Mystery of Convoy Returns''. This toy was re-released with a new ID number as part of the second ''Q-Transformers'' series.

:Convoy was redecoed into ''Q-Transformers'' [[Nemesis Prime (G1)#Q-Transformers|Black Convoy]] and retooled into [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/toys#Q-Transformers|Ultra Magnus]].

{{-}}
*'''Optimus Prime''' (2015)
**''ID number:'' '''QT-M'''

:QT-M Optimus Prime is a redeco of the GT-R Optimus Prime mold in the colors of the Transformers-sponsored [http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/tf30th/teammach/ Nissan GT-R] used by the Team Mach racing team (a vehicle previously used as the base for non-toy character [[Mach Five Racing Prime]]). Like ''[[Transformers GT: Mission GT-R (franchise)|Transformers GT]]''<nowiki>'</nowiki>s [[Safety Prime]], this toy was a collaboration with the [[w:Super GT|Super GT]] racing series and was given away free to young children who attended TakaraTomy-sponsored "Kids Walk" events held by Super GT in the fall season of 2015.

==Optimus Prime featuring Original PlayStation==
[[File:OptimusPrimeOriginalPlaystation.jpg|thumb|upright=1.66|U R NOT <font color=red>E</font>]]
*'''Optimus Prime featuring Original PlayStation''' (02/2015)
**''Accessories:'' Controller, memory card
: Released alongside a [[Megatron (G1)/toys#Mega Drive Megatron|Sega Mega Drive version of Megatron]] and outside of any other toyline, "Optimus Prime featuring Original PlayStation" transforms from robot to a scaled-down non-functional [[Sony]] [[PlayStation]] video game console. He features an opening disc compartment and comes with two accessories, a memory card and a controller that splits in two and attaches to his lower arms to act as blasters.
{{-}}

==Timelines==
*'''General Optimus Prime''' (Voyager, 2015)
**''Accessories:'' Launcher, missile, missile pod, pistol, rifle, cannon/rifle stock, cannon/rifle scope

: Available in a 2-pack alongside [[Hound (G1)#Timelines|Sgt. Hound]] at [[BotCon 2015]], General Optimus Prime is a redeco of ''[[Transformers: Generations|Generations]]'' [[Roadbuster (G1)#Generations|Roadbuster]] based on the cancelled [[Transformers: Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]] [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys#G2General|General Optimus Prime toy]]. He transforms into an off-road vehicle and comes with numerous weapons, all of which peg via 5mm post onto his vehicle rear/legs, shoulders, upper & lower arms, and hands: a spring-loaded, missile-firing launcher, a pistol, a rifle, and two small cannons that respectively form the scope and stock of the rifle. All of his weapons can combine to form an unwieldy superweapon.
{{-}}

==Hot Toys==
*'''Optimus Prime (Starscream Version)''' (2015)
**'''Accessories''': Jetpack, Starscream's Guns, Ion Blaster, Stand

==Unite Warriors==
[[File:TF-UW05-Convoy.jpg|upright=1.66|thumb]]
*'''Convoy Grand Prime''' (Multi-pack, [[February 27|2-27]]-2016)
**''Japanese ID number'': '''UW-05'''
**''Accessories'': Weapons, 4 Gun/Fist/Foots

{{charstubtoys}}
{{-}}

==Notes==
[[File:PrototypeTHB.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Not so Optimus Prime.]]

*The first prototype for Battle Convoy, the ''[[Diaclone]]'' originator of Optimus Prime, was vastly different from the final version, complete with an entirely different transformation and a car carrying trailer. The head lacked the faceplate.

*The toy that would ultimately end up as the original Optimus Prime toy was originally released in August [[1983]] as No.17 Battle Convoy from Takara's Diaclone Car Robo toyline in Japan. In [[1984]], [[Joustra]] released their own version (still with ''Diaclone'' sticker on the trailer) as part of their Diaclone line in Europe, either simply called ''Truck'' (according to the pack-in catalog) or ''Diaclone'' (in the pack-in comic). It's possible that [[GiG]] also released a version called ''Camion Convoy'' as part of their ''[[Trasformer]]'' line in Italy, but to this day no packaged sample has surfaced.
{{-}}
===The many releases of Optimus Prime===
[[File:SeveralG1Convoy.jpg|upright=1.1|thumb|Too much Prime on my hands.]]
Over the years, the [[#G1v1|original Optimus Prime]] has been repackaged and reissued multiple times:

*In the USA and Canada, limited edition promotional versions were available sporting Pepsi stickers; the Canadian version has large Pepsi stickers that cover the entire trailer, while the US version only has small Pepsi stickers that partially obscure the lines running across the trailer;
*In addition to the standard Japanese 01 Convoy release, Takara also released the toy as part of the [[#VSX|VSX Convoy vs. Megatron]] two-pack in [[1985]];
*Takara released a variant sporting clear blue windows and as part of the "[[#goodbye|Good Bye Convoy]]" set (packaged with [[Red Alert (G1)#Toys|Alert/Red Alert]] and [[Mirage (G1)#Toys|Ligier/Mirage]]) in [[1986]];
*Hasbro's subsidiary [[Milton Bradley]] (MB) released the toy in Europe in late 1985, following a slight delay due to licensing issues;<ref name="mbtfs">[http://20thcenturytoycollector.com/mb-transformers-part-5/ "The Jetfire vs Optimus Prime mixup"] at 20th Century Toy Collector</ref> there are no less than ''three'' variants of MB-packaged Optimus Prime, one of them manufactured by Takara and sporting blue feet, the other two manufactured by [[Joustra]] as part of a deal with Hasbro/MB, one of them with blue and the other one with red feet;<ref name="3mb">[http://20thcenturytoycollector.com/the-three-mb-optimus-primes/ "The Three MB Optimus Primes"] at 20th Century Toy Collector</ref>
*After Hasbro's European division had changed the packaging from "MB" to "Hasbro", the toy continued to be available in 1986, including more of the Joustra-manufactured red and blue feeted versions, which were apparently also available in the UK in English-only packaging;<ref name="3mb"/>
*[[GiG]] released the toy as ''Commander'' as part of their ''Transformers'' line in Italy in 1985, including an all-plastic variant in 1986;
*[[IGA]] released their version in Mexico in 1985; unsold stock was later imported to a plethora of European countries, including the UK, with Optimus Prime having the yellow paint scraped off his eyes and then having them painted over in red;
*Hasbro reissued the "Original Autobot Leader" toy as part of their European ''[[Classics (Europe)|Classics]]'' line of reissues in [[1991]];
*Hasbro released a [[#Generation_2|redecoed version with additional accessories]] as part of their [[Transformers: Generation 2 (toyline)|''Generation 2'' line]] in [[1993]];
*Takara reissued the original toy in its original 1985 Japanese packaging in [[2000]], with an all-black recolor being available from assorted Japanese conventions and another variant with gold instead of silver parts, stickers, and paint as a [[Lucky Draw figure|lucky draw]] prize;
*Takara reissued the toy again as ''New Year Special'' version in January 2002, sporting clear blue windows (similar to Good Bye Convoy) and featuring additional accessories such as a Matrix necklace and a [[Show-accuracy|show accurate]] recolor of the Action Master Optimus Prime figure;
*Hasbro reissued the toy in the USA and the UK as part of their ''[[The Transformers: Generation One Commemorative Series|Generation One Commemorative Series]]'' line of reissues in [[2002]], sporting shortened down smokestacks [[for safety reasons]];
*Takara reissued the toy once again in [[2003]], as part of their ''[[The Transformers Collection]]'' line of reissues, numbered 00 and featuring additional accessories such as an energon axe;
*Takara released a recolored version featuring a new trailer in December [[2005]], called ''[[Pepsi Convoy]]''.
*Hasbro released their own version of Pepsi Convoy, named "[[#PepsiPrime|Pepsi Optimus Prime]]", as a [[Hasbro Toy Shop]] exclusive in [[2007]], featuring the familiar [[For safety reasons|safety]]-shortened smokestacks of the Commemorative Series reissue.
*In August 2007 TakaraTomy yet again did a rerelease similar to the 2000 Convoy rerelease, this time as part of the "[[Transformers Encore]]" line. This version has a new rifle with a longer handle so Optimus can finally hold it straight.
*TakaraTomy released [http://seibertron.com/advertisement.php?id=8 "Convoy iPod Docking Bay with Speakers"] in September 2007. It is an iPod speaker/dock in the shape of a truck, featuring an all-white version of Convoy with a new head sculpt reminiscent of Masterpiece Convoy as the cab, and a trailer housing a pair of speakers and a docking point for an iPod.
*In March [[2008]], TakaraTomy released a G1-colored version of the iPod Convoy set.
*Hasbro released the ''25th Anniversary'' gift set edition detailed above in 2008, as part of the 2008 ''Universe'' line, once again with [[For safety reasons|shortened smokestacks]].
*TakaraTomy released another reissue based on the ''Encore'' version as part of their ''[[Transformers Chronicle|Chronicle]]'' line in 2011, lacking the original Generation 1 trailer. Instead, the ''Chronicle'' version was available in a two-pack with ''[[Transformers: Dark of the Moon (toyline)|Dark of the Moon]]'' Deluxe Class [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys#Chronicle|Optimus Prime]] and a new trailer that could be used by both Optimuses, thanks to a retooled trailer hitch on the Generation 1 Optimus Prime figure.
*In 2012, Hasbro reissued Optimus Prime again for their Asian markets, this time mixing the 25th Anniversary version of the toy itself with the older ''Commemorative Series'' packaging.<ref name="25thcomm">[http://www.cybertron.ca/boards/showthread.php?t=44388 "Bad news RE: new Commemorative Prime"] at Cybertron.ca.</ref>

===Powermaster Optimus Prime design history===

[[Powermaster]] Optimus Prime, being the grand toy rebirth of Optimus Prime post-movie, apparently received a lot of thought during the design process. Prime went through an inordinate number of design changes from concept to final with at least three very major revisions:

[[File:EarlyPMPrime1.jpg|upright=1.2|thumb|Overcompensating.]]

*The earliest version, as shown in the first patent application for the toy, was to have the Prime cab be a triplechanger, turning from truck cab to jet or robot.<ref>[http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=0&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19880604&CC=JP&NR=S63132686A&KC=A Patent #JP63-132686]</ref> The nosecone of the jet and robot legs were released by the Powermaster lock in the same fashion as the legs in the final version. Optimus would have had winged arms in non-super [[robot mode]]. The super robot mode's head was also integrated into the trailer's hitch... and lacked a faceplate.
[[File:EarlyPMPrime2.jpg|100px|thumb|Blockhead.]]
*The second known version <ref>''[[Transformers Generations]]'', p22, p106</ref> ditched the triplechanging gimmick on the cab and simplified things a good bit. This Powermaster Prime has several distinct characteristics only seen in the second design, such as the wider "block head" and two faux smokestacks on top of either shoulder as opposed to one. Also, in a rather odd twist, this design features a black head and fists for both super and regular modes rather than the traditional blue. It also had yellow eyes in either mode a la the original Optimus Prime.
[[File:EarlyPMPrime3.jpg|100px|thumb|''Triple-Power-Headmaster Optimus Prime'' was just too damn long to put on the box.]]
*The third version <ref>''[[Transformers Generations]]'', p106</ref> would quite possibly have been the most gimmick loaded Transformer in the history of the line, simultaneously being a Powermaster, [[Headmaster (technology)|Headmaster]], and [[Triple Changer]]. The Headmaster also would have been a Triple Changer, turning into a sort of armored four-wheeled rover (Roller II?) and robot as well as a rather silly looking Optimus Prime head with four vertically aligned wheels jutting off the sides. It seems that when the extra Headmaster gimmick was scrapped, the super mode head remained separate rather than being reintegrated into the trailer hitch such as on the earliest design. Notably, the body of this design is extremely close to the final design.
*A fourth version is shown in the 1987-88 Transformers product catalog that has several minor differences from both Powermaster Prime and [[Ginrai|God Ginrai]], such as having God Ginrai's sliding fists but in red, a completely different trailer hitch assembly partially based on the third design, an offset Autobot symbol in base mode, extended feet also based on third design, far more detailed super mode outer leg panels, completely different front bumper, and the first instance of single faux shoulder smokestacks rather than two. It is still unknown as to why Powermaster Prime has completely different arms from God Ginrai or all earlier concept versions.

Powermaster Prime's animation model as used in the commercials and as a character guide for the Marvel comics is a composite of the second and third designs. The body of the model is actually a straight tracing of the concept lineart for the third version (including its different rifles and twin faux shoulder stacks), with a slightly simplified drawing of the second version's head drawn on top.
{{--}}

===Miscellaneous Primes===
[[File:Early Star Convoy Planning Stage.jpg‎|thumb|upright=1.1|I am the prototype of the toy of the future!]]
*''Return of Convoy'' catalogues reveal the planning process behind Star Convoy's evolution from gimmick-rich illustration to prototype before reaching final production.
[[File:PMHeroTrace.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Stealing purses across the ages.]]
*The pose used for ''[[Transformers: Generation 2 (toyline)|Generation 2]]'' [[#HeroOptimusPrime|Hero Optimus Prime]]'s [[package art]] is rather blatantly swiped from [[The Transformers (toyline)|Generation 1]] [[Powermaster]] [[#PMOP|Optimus Prime's]] package art.
*On a similar note, ''[[Machine Wars: Transformers|Machine Wars]]'' [[#Machine Wars|Optimus Prime]]'s package art is merely edited from ''Generation 2'' [[#LaserOptimusPrime|Laser Optimus Prime]]'s card art, keeping it mostly intact save for the removal of shoulder kibble and the addition of a non-windowed chestplate.
[[File:Optimus prime nokia 6820.JPG|thumb|125px|Wait...I'm sure this is from Finland. But why did [[Seymour Simmons|Simmons]] say...]]
*The Masterpiece Optimus Prime toy was featured in a print ad for [[Wikipedia:Nokia 68xx series#Nokia 6820|Nokia 6820]] phones in December 2004.<ref name="nokia">[http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/20th-anniversary-optimus-prime-featured-in-nokia-a/4374/ "20th Anniversary Optimus Prime Featured in Nokia Ad"]</ref> He is posed bent over to look at the phone and scratching his head. Pleasantly, ''most'' of the pose pictured is perfectly possible with an un-[[Customizing|kitbash]]ed, un-Photoshopped version of the toy. (The real toy can't bend forward at the waist like that, alas.)
*''[[Transformers: Classics|Classics]]'' [[#Classics (2006)|Optimus Prime]] was initially intended to be Deluxe-sized. An alleged list of the tentative ''Classics'' line-up<ref name="classicslineup">[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/classics-11/possible-transformers-classic-line-up-4336/ Rumor] about the ''Classics'' lineup that turned out to be spot on aside from Voyager [[Soundwave (G1)/toys|Soundwave]] and Deluxe Optimus Prime.</ref> included a Deluxe-sized Optimus Prime without a trailer and a version ''with'' a trailer at the Voyager [[size class|price point]]; however, it appears the decision was eventually made to upscale Optimus to Voyager size instead.<ref name="sage">[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/classics-11/cybertron-crosswise-redeco-and-transformers-classics-info-4683/ "Cybertron Crosswise Redeco and Transformers Classics Info"] (via [[Joe Kyde]]'s proxy "SAGE2764")</ref> Don Figueroa's [[control drawing]]s for the Deluxe version were leaked before the ''Classics'' line was even released at retail.<ref name="primecontrol">Leaked ''Classics'' Deluxe Optimus Prime control drawings: [http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/classics-11/transformers-classics-optimus-prime-design-sketch-4691/ Vehicle mode], [http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/classics-11/transformers-classics-optimus-prime-robot-mode-design-sketches-4692/ robot mode]</ref> A gray model [[prototype]] was later shown as part of an interview with [[TakaraTomy]]'s staff in ''[[Transformers Generations 2009#Volume 1|Transformers Generations 2009 vol. 1]]''.<ref name="ttinterview">[http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/general-articles-25/translated-version-of-the-takara-tomy-transformers-henkei--classics-staff-interview-167073/ Translated TakaraTomy Henkei/Classics staff interview]</ref> It's unclear whether the trailer ever made it past the early planning stage before the decision was made to upscale Optimus to Voyager size.

{{-}}

== Footnotes ==
{{reflist|2|}}

[[Category:Action Masters]]
[[Category:Alternators Autobots]]
[[Category:Alternity Autobots]]
[[Category:Battle Masters Autobots]]
[[Category:Bot Shots Autobots]]
[[Category:Classics Autobots]]
[[Category:Cloud Autobots]]
[[Category:Combiner Wars]]
[[Category:Combiners]]
[[Category:Construct-Bots Autobots]]
[[Category:Contest prizes]]
[[Category:Convention exclusives]]
[[Category:E-Hobby]]
[[Category:Generation 1 Autobots]]
[[Category:Generation 2 Autobots]]
[[Category:Generations]]
[[Category:Generation 2 Go-Bots]]
[[Category:GT characters]]
[[Category:Henkei! Henkei! Autobots]]
[[Category:Kiss Players Autobots]]
[[Category:Machine Wars Autobots]]
[[Category:Mail order exclusives]]
[[Category:Masterpiece]]
[[Category:Music Label]]
[[Category:Platinum Edition]]
[[Category:Powermasters]]
[[Category:Q-Transformers characters]]
[[Category:Return of Convoy Autobots]]
[[Category:Robotmasters Autobots]]
[[Category:SDCC exclusives]]
[[Category:Timelines characters]]
[[Category:Titanium Series]]
[[Category:Titans Return]]
[[Category:Toys "R" Us exclusives]]
[[Category:Transformers with three modes]]
[[Category:Unite Warriors Autobots]]
[[Category:United Autobots]]
[[Category:Universe (2008)]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-07T10:51:53Z

Zackmak: /* Is Glyph a retconed character? */ new section

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)

== Is Glyph a retconed character? ==

[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 05:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

Glyph's order of appearance in 'Five Face of Darkness part 4' aside, is it safe to say that Glyph is an official retcon and should be added on the Character Roster for that episode? ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]])

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-07T10:51:00Z

Zackmak: /* Multiversal singularities */

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-07T10:50:06Z

Zackmak: /* Formatting of Year pages */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 05:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

Glyph's order of appearance in 'Five Face of Darkness part 4' aside, is it safe to say that Glyph is an official retcon and should be added on the Character Roster for that episode? ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]])

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-07T10:45:49Z

Zackmak: /* Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 05:45, 7 January 2016 (EST)== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

Glyph's order of appearance in 'Five Face of Darkness part 4' aside, is it safe to say that Glyph is an official retcon and should be added on the Character Roster for that episode? ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]])

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2016-01-07T10:43:57Z

Zackmak: /* Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)
:Because editing the wiki is not an automatic thing. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:33, 28 November 2015 (EST)

Glyph's order of appearance in 'Five Face of Darkness part 4' aside, is it safe to say that Glyph is an official retcon and should be added on the Character Roster for that episode?

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Proposal: Temporary Moratorium on AVP ==
After GoBots, after Ulchtar, I think we have decidedly reached a point where the act of editing the wiki according to the latest "official" information is getting in the way of wiki informativeness and quality standards. To be frank, the privilege of creating canonical material has been perverted for the sole purpose of changing this website. I propose a two-week cessation on adding any material to this site that appears on AVP or any of its upcoming iterations. I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune.

If people think this suggestion is totally out of line, by all means say so. If they agree, please say so as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:01, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:That's actually exactly what I was considering suggesting. This is all getting a little silly; I'd be more than happy with that, as it'd curb "to-the-wiki"-ism while not banning AVP content entirely for no real defensible reason. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:45, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:YES! So much yes! (with the sole exception being the archiving of AVP-and-its-ilk Facebook posts onto their respective archive pages). --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 18:48, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::<s>I'm not really sure what this is supposed to accomplish. I've never had a hard time ignoring the parts of something that annoy me or that I have no interest in. If a robust discussion on a minor character like Ulchtar bugs you so much, maybe you should take a two-week moratorium from editing the wiki. I vote no.</s> Fine. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:09, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:::Are you familiar with the expression "the straw that broke the camel's back"? Ulchtar isn't The Thing, but The Latest Thing In A Long Line Of Things. I say yes. --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]] ([[User talk:Andrusi|talk]]) 20:13, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 19:51, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm down, and let me add this to it: going forward we put stuff from AVP and its mutations on the same waiting period as all the other FP stuff [[Help:Coming_soon#Fun_Publications_Fan_Club_material|we've had basically forever]]. No, it's not part of the "paid content" blardeeblar. But maybe it'll help stem the blatant wiki-gaming going on, and also cut back on the amount of corrective/speculative editing, especially when they have to apologize/retcon/whatever something posted two days prior. Maybe trim it to two weeks rather than one month, but still. The immediate TO THE WIKI! needs to fucking ''stop''. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 19:58, 30 November 2015 (EST)
::Since Escargon brought this to my attention, I'm going to break my usual policy about commenting on my own work and vote '''yes'''. It won't kill anyone to wait a couple of weeks to edit this stuff, and may in fact improve the caliber of the questions we're getting. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 20:17, 30 November 2015 (EST)
Yes. In addition to the reasons mentioned, this should stop the back-and-forth occasionally seen of<BR>
1) AVP posts something.<BR>
2) Someone rushes to add it to the Wiki<BR>
3) Someone else disagrees with the interpretation of AVP<BR>
4) First someone goes back to AVP and asks for further clarification on the first post<BR>
5) AVP responds<BR>
6) Second someone is too busy arguing on the Wiki to check for updates<BR>
7) First someone does victory lap because official source confirmed their idea<BR>
8) Third someone stops by to say this is why they hate AVP.<BR>
We are all children of the internet. We like winning arguments. But being able to ask official sources ''in real time'' to contribute to internet arguments tends to escalate the arguments and the tensions underlying the arguments. New information comes in? Fine -- let's let it breathe for a while before deciding what to do with it. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)
:Regarding what I said above about updates made to the Facebook post archives being the sole exception to this, it has been suggested that those should have at least a one-day wait after each post is made on Facebook, which sounds reasonable. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 00:07, 1 December 2015 (EST)

I can get behind this. I've drawn attention to this resurgent "OMG TO THE WIKI" attitude while commenting on this problem before and putting a cap on it sounds good. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)

Since the idea of immediate-term write-ups is apparently problematic to a large number of editors, is there any reason to limit the 2 week cooling off period to just the FP material? Given concerns about spoilers and similar (if less heated) arguments about interpertation of ongoing IDW offerings, perhaps a 2-week wait should just be the standard wiki policy for all fiction. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 07:38, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:You KNOW all "immediate-term write-ups" is not the issue at play. Don't even. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 08:00, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::I actually don't. You and Chris both talk about "TO THE WIKI" as if it's a well understood problem without explaining why. Chris, meanwhile, posts detailed summaries of the comics before American comic shops even open. Aside from some people not liking Ask Vector Prime, I honestly don't understand the difference. It offends my sense of order, but I will admit that's probably more my problem than yours. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)
::: The difference is that comics- and the information they reveal- are set in stone; people can't just obsessively demand answers from James Roberts/John Barber/Mairghread Scott about background trivia just for the sake of changing the wiki. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:40, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I see. Maybe. Maybe not. Looking at the Ulchtar thing, which apparently was very annoying for people, there was a question asked on the 18th of November. Then an answer on the 28th of November. There were a few follow-up questions but none of them got an answer. The answer was never edited. Then there was three days of debate about what the implications of the answer meant. I don't see how, if we had the debate from December 13-15 it would have been appreciably different, or less annoying. But then, I didn't find the debate annoying in the first place, so again, this could point to my inability to understand such things. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:59, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:This is a recurring, AVP-specific problem that doesn't affect other prominent fiction. The Carcer thing was an isolated incident. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 08:06, 1 December 2015 (EST)
ThisIsWhyWeCantHaveNiceThings.jpg --[[User:DrSpengler|DrSpengler]] ([[User talk:DrSpengler|talk]]) 09:22, 1 December 2015 (EST)

So, like, are we starting this today or what? I will of course respect the consensus and wait till the 14th if we are, but Cy-Kill just had a new adventure if we're still debating. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:26, 1 December 2015 (EST)
:I'm going to assume that, yes, this is starting today, and that current content will be added no sooner than two weeks hence, December 14. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:24, 1 December 2015 (EST)

===Mystery Science Theater 3000===
Does anyone object to me making a page for Mystery Science Theater 3000 now, rather than waiting the 2 weeks? I only ask because the latest AVP plugs the MST3K [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mst3k/bringbackmst3k kickstarter campaign], which is over in 4 days. Given the time-sensitive nature, it seemed an exception might be warranted. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 14:47, 7 December 2015 (EST)

===Results===
'''"I would like to see what discussions we have here, and how the pages are modified, when we're not lurching to the organ grinder's tune."'''

It looks like the discussions we have when not lurching to the tune is... [[Talk:Grand Galvatron|more of the same]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:48, 11 December 2015 (EST)
:There are 63 new "official facts" about Grand Galvatron hitting the wiki every single day, most of them by wiki editors feeding them through a revolving door Facebook page in order to validate their own ideas? I must've missed it. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:36, 11 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were complaining about an argument about Ulchtar, one which Grand Galvatron has already exceeded in length. One that started when someone saw some half-translated info and immediately declared TO THE WIKI. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:44, 11 December 2015 (EST)

== Notes and whitespace issue ==

A while back I put up some notes in several characters' pages, in order to include a link to the ''[[The Transformers: The Movie]]'''s adaptations within those pages' fiction sections. Unfortunately, it didn't work out quite as well as I wanted. Unlike the Live-action film series, where a similar note would always come up at the end of a section's write-up, the note came right in the middle of the section for many Generation 1 characters. On top of that, because of how some images were included in the section write-ups, several characters got large amounts of white-space in their section write-ups to accommodate the note.

At the time, I had heard that there was a piece of code that could fix the white-space issue, but I've been looking for a while and found nothing. (The closest I got to any sort of result with was: '''<nowiki><div class="floatright">Text on the right</div></nowiki>''' but that didn't solve much either.)

I'd still very much like to keep the links to the movie adaptations on those characters' pages, as those are still pieces of fiction wherein those characters appeared. But at this point, I've given up on finding a solution that will make the note look like less of a mess. And I will admit that the amount of white-space the note sometimes generates is rather unseemly. I figured a note pointing out that characters appeared in an adaptation of the G1 cartoon movie could be put at the bottom of the article, in the "Notes" section.

Either that, or I could double up links within the cartoon section like this: {{storylink|The Transformers: The Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers: The Animated Movie}} {{storylink|Transformers the Movie (Ladybird adaptation)|Transformers the Movie}}. I'm also open to any other suggestions. Either way, I wanted other people to weigh in and give their opinions before I started any kind of wide-spread editing. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:I think the extra storylinks look lot better than a note. It's what we already do for flashbacks. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:10, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:Multiple storylinks make me think that there is something more to be written up, rather than them being multiple versions of the same events. Putting a note at the end of the page seems to divorce the adaptations from the source material. My personal preference is for the note templates, regardless of the whitespace issue. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 18:39, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:: I'm not convinced that multiple story links or notes are needed at all, at least on a character page. If there are multiple tellings of the same event, probably a character only needs the primary one. Then, anyone who clicks off to the primary story can see a note that there are other adaptations. I'm not sure it adds anything to Bumblebee, for instance, to know that yes, he did this in the Transformers movie but also in a novel and a comic and a story book. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:48, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::I'd rather keep some indication of which adaptation which character shows up in on their own pages, considering it is inconsistent from character to character how many adaptations they show up in. Some characters show up in all of them, some show up in only some of them, and others show up in none of the adaptations. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:02, 3 December 2015 (EST)
:::: I guess I just don't see what the value is of that. Especially because the adaptation itself will have the character roster. Mind you, I don't feel particularly strongly about it one way or the other. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:07, 3 December 2015 (EST)

==Proposal: A "Former multiversal singularities" category==

As probably know, a recent story has split up multiversal singularities into separate characters, or something like that. Because of this, the "multiversal singularities" category has been dissolved, and is no longer linked to on character pages. But why? The idea of multiversal singularities shaped several years of ''Transformers'' fiction. My proposal: a "Formal Multiversal singularities" category, so that we can acknowledge the characters who were once multiversal singularities while not inadvertantly implying that they still ''are'' multiversal singularities. Thoughts? -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 01:22, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:Isn't that, like, only the Thirteen, Primus, and Unicron? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 02:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)

::Yeah. So it'd be an easy thing to do. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 03:15, 13 December 2015 (EST)

:Or we just re-instate "Multiversal Singularities" as a category because categories have '''''NEVER''''' been predicated on current status. BW Blackarachnia doesn't lose her "Predacon" category because she ultimately ended up a Decepticon after being a Maximal for a while. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 17:01, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::Did we ''ever'' have that category? I mean, we ''should'', but yeah, we wouldn't have removed if we had for exactly the reason Sipher states. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:51, 13 December 2015 (EST)
:::I checked a few relevant articles at random. Went back to last version before this October. Couldn't find that category in their category lists. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 20:04, 13 December 2015 (EST)
::::I was probably mistaken. I probably just happened to notice Unicron/Primus/one of the Thirteen didn't have a multiversal singularity category on their page, and assumed that it was deleted because of the because of the retcon. My bad. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 13:49, 14 December 2015 (EST)

==Vandalism==
Um, yeah. So one of the pages on the Wanted pages list is...''Spiral Vagina''. That means that someone tried linking to a page called Spiral Vagina at some point. I'm not really sure how to handle that or who to let know about it, so I'm just posting it here. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:27, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:[[Genital System]]. I'm very sorry. Incidentally, if you wanted to find what pages link to that, you could have used this page: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Spiral_Vagina --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:32, 15 December 2015 (EST)
::Oh. Thank you. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 18:54, 15 December 2015 (EST)
"'''''Kiss Players!''''' ''No, It's Really Not Vandalism, This Actually Happened.''" --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 21:33, 15 December 2015 (EST)
:The entire page should just be this discussion. [[User:Chip|Chip]] ([[User talk:Chip|talk]]) 05:44, 21 December 2015 (EST)
I seriously want to make that page, but something so epically horrible might need s comitte just to handle the comedy potential. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 08:52, 18 December 2015 (EST)

== We're all sick of arguing about GoBots ==

But here we are again. I restate my position as detailed in an AllSpark post: since moving to its own page, with Cy-Kill returning to his own universe and talking exclusively about "unmade" GoBots episodes, "Renegade Rhetoric" has become ''GoBots'' fiction, not ''Transformers'' fiction, and we do not cover GoBots fiction. Events from ''Challenge of the GoBots'' "season 2" do not warrant coverage on the wiki, and I think that any events described from the original, actually-existing cartoon should be reduced to minimum, and all GoBots characters only mentioned in these stories consolidated into simplified "List of Guardian" and "List of Renegade" pages with only brief write-ups, linking readers to our archive of the Facebook posts if they want the full scoop. Characters such as Cy-Kill and those who have actually appeared in Transformers-universe stories should, of course, retain their own articles. We have editors actively working in bad faith, manipulating Renegade Rhetoric by asking leading questions to force the inclusion of ''GoBots'' on this wiki when it has been repeatedly decided that it won't be, and I am all for an exception being made so that this type of behaviour is not rewarded. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:48, 6 January 2016 (EST)
: THIS WEBSITE'S EMPEROR-KING AGREES --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:03, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::Thirded. GoBots fiction, and cheating, do not belong here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 20:05, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:100% agreement. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:06, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::EDIT: See Below[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I'm in! -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::I don't mind either. If nothing else, this entire debacle has taught us that GoBots and Transformers will never be able to peacefully coexist, on toy shelves or otherwise. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 20:50, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I vote yes. Consolidate the GoBots pages, keep the Renegade Rhetoric page and archive. I would argue that this is a case similar to how we only documented the issues of the GI Joe Marvel comic that contained Transformers; once it stopped being Transformers, we stopped covering it. Also, you know, hopefully this will mean people will complain about the Facebook pages less. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 02:47, 7 January 2016 (EST)

Changing my vote. The RR page links to the Club page. AVP references and comments on RR. This is canon just as everything else, gaming the system or no. I may be weary, but I won't buckle. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I second Escargon. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:21, 6 January 2016 (EST)

I don't think anyone will be surprised that I disagree. There seem to be two arguments. 1, it's not Transformers fiction. 2, editors working in bad faith. Going case by case,
1: I don't see how Renegade Rhetoric is GoBots fiction and not Transformers fiction. It's being broadcast on Axiom Nexus News, on Cybertron. It stars Cy-Kill, the hybrid Hanna-Barbara/TransTech version. It features a number of characters who are proper Transformers, from the Aligned continuity and the Unictron Trilogy, and more who are powered by sparks stolen from Mirror Alpha Trion's lab. That seems to be the main intellectual foundation for the argument, and I'll grant that it's novel, but I think it's flawed.
2: Were some editors (including me, I'll admit) asking leading questions? Yes, we were. It seems to have largely stopped, mostly because the column stopped rewarding it. But that applies to ALL of Ask Vector Prime, and that's undoubtedly canon. Are we going to start trying to look at the motivation of every creator now and altering coverage accordingly? Milne draws Hot Shot as dead to poke at Walky, should we undocument that?

And now, additional factors. I hate making slippery slope arguments, but really, the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to. And if the wiki starts picking and choosing what to document, or at what detail to document, based on that, then it will have well and truly lost its way. Because if we decide that we can come up with a pseudo-logical justification to exclude this content, then we'll use it as precedent and do it again. All of Ask Vector Prime. Kiss Players. The Beast Within. That weird retcon about Cyclonus and Bombshell from a video. Big swaths of the Dreamwave run. I don't see it ending. Yes, people are sick of arguing, but this policy will lead to more, not less, arguments.

Another, lesser factor, is that these pages are already made. So we're proposing going through some 200 articles that are already created in compliance with this wiki's policies and changing them due to an exception, making more work for ourselves to make the wiki less informative.

And a third factor, is that these posts are popular. Ask Vector Prime's readership is in the thousands. Every post gets liked, shared, commented upon. People are enjoying it, and some of them will come here to see what we have to say about it. The cost of having a possibly extraneous article is negligible, but the cost of not having an article is real.

I also think that we should do what we always do on weighty matters, and have the debate first and THEN call for a vote. I would suggest that all the "seconded" to the proposal are premature. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:38, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I'm with Gigs, I know we are volunteering, but this s still service, and we are still educators. There is a responsibility to inform the populace, if RR content was exclusively GoBots, there may be some argument, given we don't cover FunPub Gi Joe fiction or even Diaclone fiction(if it exists) even though the later is a TF universe technically. But given the bleed of TF lore and concepts I feel it is in our scope. Also it's kind of really petty to ignore like, reams of content because of a parliamentary beef. I vote to keep the GoBots season 2 stuff. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:07, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:''the real reason we're having this conversation and everyone knows it is that there's a sizable block of people who don't like the content. That's what all of this boils down to.''
:NO. No. No no no. I don't give a rip about the content itself either way. (I mean, okay, I think the endless supply of numbering universes and other such non-story wankery is dumb and pointless and has made a Big Giant Thing of something that was meant to be just a sidelong atmospheric technical footnote in a couple of years-ago stories, but that's not the point.)
:No. The point is that this content is being created explicitly and for no other purpose than to circumvent the wiki's rules, to alter its content and organization, by fans who otherwise were unable to get their way on the very content in question. It's not being done as part of a story in any meaningful sense. It's not a unintended side effect by some uninformed pro writer. It's not part of a carefully considered larger universe. It's not something dictated from on high within Hasbro. It's purposefully, transparently, and most of all ''pointlessly'' manipulative, seemingly all because a handful of OCD minds can't handle the thought of a 30 year old cartoon not being related to another 30 year old cartoon.
:THAT is what I and, I presume, other editors don't like. Because it's bullshit. Canon generated by bullshit -- maybe we should consider treating it accordingly. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 20:53, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This is true, but irrelevant, the wiki picking favorites with the AVP 2week limit was down the slope enough but using the out of universe background of something as an excuse to ignore fiction is totally hugged. Its not as if Jim and co are mindless robots, this is official fiction with all the research, skill, heart and passion that entails, blanking it out and other such special efforts is parliamentary minutiae. Who cares if people are gaming the system, the writers are big boys, they know what they are doing and in fact are often intimately aware of how this goes down. We have to stop acting like AVP is some puppet of a nebulous group of wiki villians instead of a dozen grown ass men and women making editorially supervised official fiction that happens to be done by fans like so many other franchises. We can't play diddle the lasagna with our rules just because the creators are iniated into our wanky insanity, if Ichikawa is going to make a Prowl 2 madcap adventure, Jim is going to make Cloud G1 for some reason and GoBots stuff starts bleeding, who are we to judge? That's basically with this whole thing, the wiki's "purity" is to be impartial, if snarky, recorder, we log it all and may be smart asses about it, but it's all in.

Besides the funpub stuff doesn't have the HB/Bandai legal issue anyway. [[User:Lush City|Lush City]] ([[User talk:Lush City|talk]]) 23:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::I call bullshit on your bullshit. Because if you have been reading Renegade Rhetoric, it's hilarious. It's practically daily new episodes of an 80s cartoon that get the tone spot-on perfect. It's passionate, it has good stories, it even manages to have good characters despite most episodes being about 2 pages long. And none of it is about circumventing wiki rules. If it was, they'd have stopped doing it once they got everyone in, but they haven't. They're telling new stories, and they're quality, and I defy anyone who is actually reading them to disagree with that. Because, really, I'd love a show of hands, how many of the people who are voting no have actually read a single Renegade Rhetoric Season 2 episode? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:57, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::You yourself said you and others "were asking leading questions until you stopped getting rewarded for it." This is not the place for such a "reward." That kind of "reward" does not belong here and the entire mechanism for gaining it is what really subverts our rules for inclusion. Any alleged humor in Renegade Rhetoric now is just, as the saying goes, the fruit of the poisoned tree. Also, the debates have been had, since 2007 at least. Also also, "people will want to come here to see more RR/GoBots articles" leaves me quite unmoved. They can see RR on RR, they can read about GoBots on Counter-X, and in the year 2016 they can make their own GoBot wiki. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Your "fruit of the poisonous tree" argument leaves me unmoved. Because, according to this proposal, ALL OF THAT STUFF WILL STAY. Because that's all from the Axiom Nexus bit not covered by Chris McFeely's proposal. So you'll leave the poisonous tree, and get rid of all the fruit. Because that makes sense. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:23, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::This was created because the fans voted for it, after a whole month of guests colummist. Some of these fans have been taking advantage of it, yes, but that's not why it was created.[[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:00, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:: The thing is that the RR stories ''are'' funny and clever and well-written, but fundamentally they don't have anything to do with TFs. They're using characters and settings that were never created by Hasbro/Takara. If, say, Renegade Rhetoric wrote a story where Cy-Kill was on an adventure and bumped into Optimus Prime, then yeah, that particular escapade could be added to the wiki, but fundamentally Renegade Rhetoric is Gobots fanfiction; well written fanfic, but basically completely outside this wiki's coverage sphere. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 21:20, 6 January 2016 (EST)
I vote no to this proposal as a whole. Whilst I'm not a fan of wiki gaming, the GoBots stuff happening these days is nothing like that. They're fun stories for the sake of fun, and I'd be sad to see them banished. (I could probably deal with "List of Guardians" and "List of Renegades" articles, though.) [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:10, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:Yeah, or at least group articles for a good number of them. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:11, 6 January 2016 (EST)
If I say yes, will people actually go back to making significant contributions instead of complaining about everything AVP does? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 21:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::No. If you say yes to this proposal, it will lead to more arguments, more complaining about AVP, and then Thy will say, "hey, it worked well for GoBots, let's undo all 1000 AVP articles." Remember, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I urge you to vote with your conscience and not give in to a crowd to try to forestall an argument, for this change WILL open the floodgates. Plus, it will lead to people spending time UNDOING informative articles they don't like rather than making informative articles they do. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:19, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::It was really a rhetorical question. I don't give a fuck about GoBots being on this wiki because it doesn't impede my ability to edit pages I care about and I really wish people would focus their energies they clearly have on filling out articles and not complaining. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 22:01, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::Just upthread you were saying that this is allegedly "really" about people just acting out of some low personal distaste for GoBots. Yet this is now the second time in as many days that you've posed your own actions as being some sort of reaction / pre-emption '''''of me personally'''''. Do not do that again. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:49, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::::Actually, I meant a low personal distaste for the FB content. Happy to clarify. And yes, I dropped your name with a probable course of action. That was probably crossing a line, and I apologize. On the other hand, was I wrong? Are you willing to commit to no further proposals, votes, or executive actions to try to minimize the footprint of AVP? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:15, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:::I didn't even think about this, but it makes a lot of sense. Any breaking of the rule of putting What Is Canon before anything else (when that's been the wiki's entire modus operandi up until this started) is a dangerous path to follow. [[User:Sky Shadow|Sky Shadow]] ([[User talk:Sky Shadow|talk]]) 21:25, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I got Armada and Energon DVDs for Christmas. Sure. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2016 (EST)
Like Escargon and Giggidy, I am against this proposal. -[[User:Foffy the Sheep|Foffy the Sheep]] ([[User talk:Foffy the Sheep|talk]]) 21:34, 6 January 2016 (EST)

So I'm only a recent editor of this Wiki, but I've been reading it religiously for years. And as a deeply devoted and long time TF fan, despite what some may feel, AVP, RR, and the collective of Club FB Pages have been some of the most entertaining pieces of TF canon. Yes, Go-Bots has a different lineage than the rest of Transformers proper, but at least since the Almanacs, and especially through these FB Pages, Go-Bots has become recognized as legitimate canon within the TF Multiverse. While I admit to being a completionist, and ideally, I'd love to see the entirety of Go-Bots, Brave, Zoids, etc. covered on this wiki due to their relation with Transformers; but worry not, for I understand that realistically, that truly would become far too distractedly cluttered - which is why I can even agree with not having extensive coverage for anything Go-Bots related that is outside of anything under the umbrella of Transformers. But as it was mentioned earlier, Renegade Rhetoric is treated with the same regard as Ask Vector Prime, Spacewarp's Logs and all the Axiom Nexus News Pages. It may not be "directly" Transformers, but it's far more intertwined than the 80's cartoon. No, people shouldn't be abusing to ability to have canon produced just for the sake of the Wiki, but that REALLY doesn't seem to be the case with what RR is producing currently. They're great stories in good fun, and I believe they should be treated as being just as much canon as any other TF media. I vote to include it. Hail Cy-KIll! [[User:IKY|IKY]]

I vote '''Yes''' for removal. Let the Talk:Main Page read forevermore: THE FUNNY STAYS. GOBOTS DO NOT. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 22:24, 6 January 2016 (EST)

A lot of people seem to be in favour of retaining them because they're good, entertaining stories, but I don't think anyone on the "get rid of them" side is disputing that. The issue is they are GoBots stories, not Transformers stories. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 23:51, 6 January 2016 (EST)
:I posted a detailed rebuttal as to how they're Transformers stories. The fact that it's done under a Transformers license. The conceit that, in universe, these are pirate broadcasts on Axiom Nexus News. The fact that many of the Renegades are, in story, Cybertronians. (Puzzler, Monsterous, Wendy's GoBots, more.) The fact that Cy-Kill is the TransTech design. The fact that Vector Prime comments on the occasional question posted on Renegade Rhetoric. It brings us to a fascinating philosophical question... what is a Transformers story? But these stories seem to fit. Just as a thought experiment, if one of the issues of Transformers: Sector 7 followed around, say, Rasputin for a whole issue, and didn't have any Transformers in it... would it still be a Transformers story? I guess I'm saying that yes, it would. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 23:55, 6 January 2016 (EST)
::If an issue of Transformers: Sector 7 did not have any Transformers in it, I think people would be asking IDW some rather pointed questions about WTF they were doing. Also I think the important part here is these are still GoBots characters, even if they have been relabeled Cybertronians. If the club started producing Voltron fiction where the Voltron lions were actually inert Cybertronians, I think we'd avoid detailing that too. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 00:31, 7 January 2016 (EST)
:::I don't think either hypothetical is helping the discussion. (The answer is that we would detail both because they unambiguously fall under the Transformers brand.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 00:46, 7 January 2016 (EST)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2015-11-28T23:17:46Z

Zackmak: /* Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number? {{unsigned|Zackmak}}

:1) Please sign your posts.
:2) Please don't make edits to fiction you have not personally watched or read, because of the very problems you suffered above. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:46, 23 November 2015 (EST)

Still getting used to how this works. My apologies for the newbie mistakes. Wondering though why even one of the many TFwiki administrators don't make the change? It seems like a no-brainer...but that's why I asked the initial question - to find out why she was left out of the 'Character Roster'--[[User:Zackmak|Zackmak]] ([[User talk:Zackmak|talk]]) 18:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2015-11-23T15:12:25Z

Zackmak: /* Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? */

__NEWSECTIONLINK__

This is the place for discussion of topics that affect the entire wiki. Some topics that would ordinarily be here have merited their own pages:

{{chapters|title=Specific Discussion Subjects|align=left|content=
<div class="list-header">'''Moving From Wikia:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving|Arriving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving|Leaving]]
* [[Transformers Wiki:Community Portal/Complaints|Complaints]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''New Ad Policy:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki:Ads|Ads]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Bookworm Database-Crash:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Damage Control Central|Damage Control Central]]
* [[Project:Bookworm Crash]]
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Leaving2|Leaving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Server Move:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Arriving2|Arriving Take 2]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Relicensing:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Relicensing|Relicensing]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''Dealing With Vandalism:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/Vandalism|Vandalism]]
<br/><div class="list-header">'''GoBots Sister Wiki:'''</div>
* [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal/GoBots|Discussion on the place of GoBots in this wiki]]
<br/> <div class="list-header">'''Wiki Technical Information:'''</div>
* [[Transformers_Wiki:Tech|A Not So Brief Summary of the Horrible Things That McFly and Co. Have Done To Keep This Wiki From Melting Down]]
}}<br/>

{{:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}/Archive}}


== GoBots 2015 ==
Hey guess what - people are using AVP to try to settle this internet score too. What a shock, I know, right? Multiple wiki editors said the scores of new one-sentence-one-source GoBot articles should all be made into a single list, read commentary here:
http://www.allspark.com/forums/topic/101932-tfwikinet-thread-30/page-96

Before very many more one-sentence-one-source articles get installed, I think we should at least have some discussion here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 13:38, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:I say make an exception and do a full coverage on Gobots.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 13:48, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

:Completely sold on combo pages by Tindalos: we already do include Related Characters on pages like [[Susan Hoffman]], [[Collins (Movie)]]. We could easily do a Guardians#Minor Guardians and Renegades#Minor Renegades for people who haven't got enough to them. (Like, Cop-Tur and Zero gets a lot said about them but Fly Trap does not) Groups like Puzzler could be all stuffed under the Puzzler page. (The Axiom Nexus Renegades, I'd cheat and say keep them on their own pages since ''these'' are meant to be Transformers in-universe.) --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Most of the Gobots described by RR are getting more than one note name mentions. History, alt-modes, personality, the works. I wouldn't just conglomerate them all together. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 13:59, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:However, I wouldn't be opposed to consolidating articles like Puzzler, since he's practically a drone, and the Dread Launchers and Secret Riders, since all of them share history. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::I think making a list page is better than having numerous pages with short texts.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:15, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::If we don't do them all, combining Puzzler, Launchers,and Riders is a good idea anyway.[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (GMT)

:Proof-of-concept page for if we want to list 'em up: put it under fiction (so that's easier to find), put the main Gobotron and the in-universe TFs up top, and stick the details of the minors under that. tfwiki.net/mediawiki/index.php?title=Renegade&oldid=1016174 [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::I've been doing most of the Renegade write-ups and most of them seem to be more than just name drops. Generally we get a name, a personality, an alt mode, and often an adventure. That's easily enough for an article. For the exceptions, like Puzzler, a single overarching page isn't a bad idea, but maybe not a necessary idea. The information on the Guardians is much more sparse, and having big lists for most of them could probably work. I haven't been writing them up due to how little there is on most of them.
::I am not sure where the idea comes from that having eighty small articles is a bad thing, though. The Wiki has always erred on the side of inclusiveness, which leads to pages like [[Spike's booty call]] and [[Moe]] and [[DeForest High]], things which are also one or two line articles about people and concepts that only appear in one source. I'm not sure why this is any different. If anything, there's way more interest in the GoBot material, as evidenced by how many people are asking questions about the Renegades and how many likes and shares those pages are getting.
::I'm also seeing, both in this thread and in the thread linked to, lots of interest in wikiing up the entire "Challenge of the Gobots" cartoon. McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, originally, and now Primestar and Gearshift all seem to be in favor. On the other side, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine. It seems odd to me that, with the momentum apparently leaning 2:1 towards documenting all of "Challenge of the Gobots", we're talking about curtailing the bits and bobs that are definitely for sure Transformers canon. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:49, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Logistical question: Do enough people have the GoBots DVD (or, cough, other sources) to write them up? (We ''are'' still lagging in fleshed out UT character pages, after all, and I think more people own those shows). -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 19:20, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::Well, episodes are on the internet.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 16:01, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Episodes aren't licensed by Hasbro, so we cannot write them up and place them here. Ever.
:::::Giggidy: this is different from the silly jokes you refer to because at least those jokes are contained within licensed Transformers material. The GoBots AS PEOPLE REMEMBER THEM - the cartoons, characters, and toys - were never released under a Hasbro license, except for a tiny minority of exceptions in text stories. Even IF we settled for allowing independent articles for everything AVP said, it could never, ever contain any material more than that, because Hasbro didn't publish it and doesn't own it.
:::::All in all I am extremely disappointed by the... I guess, poor sportsmanship, pettiness, and entitlement... of the pro-inclusion side. This has been rehashed and reargued and relitigated year after year after year after year with very clear reasons why they do not belong, and for some reason people think none of that matters because GoBots were just cool! Well, Samhain and the Bogey Man from the DIC Ghostbusters cartoon were just cool and we've got the Ghostbusters in here as an in-joke, but we don't freaking add in Samhain the demon from a DIC cartoon through overeager bootstrapping. We also don't add in the very awesome and well-loved Dark Phoenix by extrapolation just because the Allspark Almanac mentioned an M'kraan Crystal.
:::::The MOST that could EVER be included about any of these GoBots is the stuff AVP writes, because at least that IS put out by Hasbro. I and quite a few others think that even that much material isn't much at all and since it's coming in a rapidfire slew for a lot of characters I think a list format collection is worth discussing. If a lot of people really really really disagree, then I could rationally grasp the argument that through the loophole that has been cheated into existence they have grounds on which to disagree and the articles containing the AVP material could hypothetically each stand on their own. But that's ALL that can go there. Only AVP. No cartoon, nothing else. And even that should not be taken for granted by the pro-inclusion side. They really have to sell their case, because from here it's STILL way too heavily predicated upon "oh-come-ON!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 16:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::This isn't about winning arguments from years ago-most of us weren't even signed up when the AAII came out and everybody got into a whole mess over that. Many of us honestly think that documenting the series is something that we should do and within the jurisdiction. You can disagree with putting it up on the wiki, but don't just throw about terms like "pettiness" and "entitlement" cause you don't like the opposing sides argument or the fiction causing it in the first place. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:46, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I would suggest Hasbro's ownership or non-ownership is irrelevant. We document many things not owned by Hasbro but merely associated with them, including the entire Japanese franchise (owned by TakaraTomy) and the entire film franchise (owned and copyrighted by Paramount, with only the Transformers elements used under license from Hasbro). --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Ownership by TakTom is just as legitimate as ownership by Hasbro, and licensing is just as legitimate as ownership. Things that are neither owned nor licensed by a company that actually produces real Transformers, such as a Hanna-Barbera cartoon, are not legitimate for inclusion. Otherwise we'll be throwing in fanfic and third-party toys and Family Guy episodes with TF "appearances." --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 17:04, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::There is a possible justification for their inclusion that would still bar those other things. We could decide that having had the GoBots declared to actually be TFs in a multiversal sense means that any material that was officially produced about them is now open for inclusion (the fact that it was officially produced under the auspices of Tonka would be a mere detail). This would not open the floodgates for fanfic, 3rd party materials or Family Guy. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 17:47, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That concept has been decided-''against'', here, many times. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:19, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::Saying that we've voted against something in the past is not a strong argument for why we should vote against it now. Things change, the population of editors change, our understanding of the material changes. Gay marriage was illegal, now it's legal. I'm not saying you're stomping on my civil liberties, but you really need a more compelling argument than "we've said no before." Besides, you're the one who jumpstarted this conversation.
:::::::::::My point with Paramount was that there are elements that we document fully that aren't owned by Hasbro. They're owned by another corporation, and are used adjacent to Hasbro material. Hasbro doesn't own, say, Seymour Simmons. Paramount does. But we document him because he's a Transformers character. Likewise, Hasbro doesn't own some elements of Challenge of the Gobots, Hanna-Barbara does. But Kenner did license certain elements to Hanna-Barbara to make the GoBots cartoon, and Kenner is now Hasbro. Effectively it's the same situation legally. We do the same thing with other crossovers, like [[DreamMix TV World Fighters]] or the [[Avengers]] book.
:::::::::::And even if it wasn't, our decisions about what's in scope and what isn't is just that, our decision. It's reached by consensus, after reasoned debate. If the consensus is that Gobots is close enough, passes the squint test, we certainly could choose to include it. You're acting as if your statments are akin to "it's obvious that water is wet", a fact, when in fact they're closer to "marriage has always been defined as being between a man and a woman," a social convention. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:35, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I just saw this in the morass of text, and '''''fuck you''''' for equating "not including GoBots cartoon" with "ban gay marriage". REALLY tempted to drop a ban on you right now for that little act of vileness. Holy fucking shit. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:53, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::I am not purporting to cite stone tablets from a thousand years ago - I am referring back to ''the conversation FOUR MONTHS AGO directly above this one.'' Your reference to DreamMix proves my point perfectly: we include things that had an official Transformers creator stamp at time of publication, like Simon Belmondo, and NOT ancillary same-universe stuff that DID NOT, like Sypha Belnades. Ditto for Avenger characters that never had the stamp like the Brothers Grimm or whatever. We don't get to enjoy our way past the clear concept of who really owned and licensed what and when. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:55, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::So we've got the two positions:
::::::::::::a) GoBots the cartoon is not Hasbro licensed or involved in any way; we should only properly cover GB stuff in Hasbro-approved stuff like Fun Publications, AVP, comic homages etc
::::::::::::b) Approved stuff has now made so many GoBots nods and explicit references to the show (all the way back [[Games of Deception|to 2007]] and almost [[G1_GoBots|2004]]) that this is no longer a big jump but a natural thing to do.
::::::::::::without much budging. We could put it up to an editor vote? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 18:49, 18 October 2015 (GMT)
::::::::::::It might be a bit off topic, but are you sure about Simmons? Hasbro put out a Human Alliance toy with Agent Simmons. I don't have the box and didn't read all the fine print, but the front of the box has "Agent Simmons™" next to a Hasbro logo. One movieverse character that might be wholly affiliated with paramount and not Hasbro might be [[Bendy-Bus Prime]]. - [[User:Gimmick|Gimmick]] ([[User talk:Gimmick|talk]]) 19:00, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::We include stuff that includes Transformers even without an official Transformers stamp, like [[Unfoldings!]]. And the conversation four months ago looks like it was 4 in favor, 3 against, so it's not really a great argument for you. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:10, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::How in the world can you imagine an issue of the GIJoe comic starring Transformers to NOT BE official licensed product? --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:24, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::I didn't say that it wasn't licensed. I said it didn't have a Transformers stamp. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also by my count of the last conversation it was 2 in favor, 4 against, 1 seemingly not strongly decided, and 1 recusal due to professional conflict of interest. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:50, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::My count: McFeely, Khajidha, Saix, Sorenson, for, Walky, M Sipher, Thylacine against. Sorenson's position was clear. And M Sipher also worked professional on GoBots, so if we're discounting Sorenson, we should probably discount Sipher as well. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:22, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::Unfoldings is Hasbro-stamped though, and we don't describe much of the Joe plot.
::::::::::::::Either way, if it was that close a call last time, should we just aye or nay it?--[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 00:14, 19 October 2015 (GMT)
:::::::::::::::It's been like four hours. This is a big decision and should have at least 2-3 days debate. Honestly, I haven't even decided how I feel, I just think Thy's arguments are pretty weak. That doesn't mean there aren't some strong ones. Let's not go calling for votes just yet. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:18, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::[[Help:Official info]]: the first sentence under "What constitutes official information?" seems relevant here. There is no way anything included in the movies is anything less than relevant to this wiki. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 19:26, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
'''"Simply put, anything coming either directly or indirectly from Hasbro and/or TakaraTomy, or from other official parties such as (currently) IDW Publishing, Paramount Pictures, Fun Publications or other companies officially involved with the Transformers brand."'''
:::::::::::::Right. And since Kenner is wholly owned by Hasbro, then despite being owned by Hanna-Barbara, GoBots was (retroactively) coming directly from Hasbro as much as the movies are. Then the only question becomes is GoBots a Transformers subline. Hasbro and FunPub seem to feel that it is, and have been using the [[Gobots|name]] [[G1 GoBots|and]][[Ask Vector Prime|concepts]] [[Go-Bot (G2)|for]] [[Withered Hope|decades]].--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:39, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::The key - and wrong - word being "retroactively." Takara's Diaclones became Transformers, and there are occasional Diaclone references we catalog. But we do not catalog 1970s-80s pre-Transformer content as anything beyond curiosities and footnotes; they don't get their box-back name-dropped characters and events covered here; in fact the "Cymond" content we have is new, not vintage. The same goes for Macross and Beetras and Brave as well. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:57, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::Also, I feel that I should point out that some members of the Wiki are at TFCon at the moment and unable to take part in this discussion. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Another excellent reason not to rush into any hasty votes.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 20:16, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Well I'm back and guess what? Fuck individual articles. Stuff them all into a single "Renegade" article. The idea of a ton of two-sentence articles from a singular source that is blatantly doing this to ramrod shit we have repeatedly and recently said "no" to remains goddamn stupid and counter-productive. There's better arguments for documenting everything G.I. Joe than GoBots, and we're not fucking doing that. MAKE A SEPARATE GOBOTS WIKI. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 20:29, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::Except since the whole thing's started, it's moved on from name drops to actually expanding the histories of the characters, which is why many are turning back to the idea of individual Gobot articles. There's plenty of G.I. Joes and Cobra members who do nothing of note in the series they appear in with the TFs, but the only consolidated one is the Dreadnoks since they share most of their appearances together, which could work for Puzzler and others like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:54, 18 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::::Making the separate Go-Bots articles doesn't take away anything from the rest of the wiki. And if they're short articles, well, they are what they are. We have recorded the entirety of Transformers fiction covering their subject on one page, and that fiction is very sparse, but it is accurate, and faithful to the wiki's mission of documenting information. Beyond that though, I'd say I'd vote against merging in information about non-Hasbro/Takara/whatevs owned properties into the articles, such as the Go-Bots cartoon. A sister wiki seems like it would be the best idea, though I can't volunteer my services to completing it as of right now, as I'm pretty thoroughly engaged on other projects on THIS wiki. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:13, 18 October 2015 (EDT)

===Call for Vote===

It's been a week since this last came up and I know there are people still pissed that GoBots stuff is added at all, so can we pull the pin and decide? We all know the arguments by now. Whether we should reduce most of the existing GoBot pages or leave them (this seems to be all they're getting now Renegade Rhetoric's ended) is an important but I think separate issue to: include GoBots fiction in its entirety on this wiki or do not include anything but what comes out under Hasbro material. <br>
At this point I've swung round to being against adding ''Challenge'' material; it should have its own wiki, which could be created tomorrow if people wanted. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:19, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:I vote for leaving the Go-Bot articles as we have them now. They're hardly "two-sentence articles" for the most part, and whether we personally like something or not hardly has bearing on its inclusion in the wiki. Lots of people hate [[The Beast Within]], but its here. And AVP has more people involved in its production, and more research put through it than that comic did. When there's going to be a Go-Bot's wiki, we'll link it in the articles like we do to other outside wikis. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
::I'm in favour of keeping the existing AVP, FunPub stuff too. Just draw the line there and all. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 01:40, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
:::By the way, thanks to all the editors who have been working hard to keep all the Guardians and Renegades articles updated! It's a big help, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who appreciates it greatly. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 21:44, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been thinking on this and, despite the relatively weak arguments against including ''Challenge'' material, something about including it feels off to me. I think intellectually the case for inclusion is very strong, but I think emotionally it'd probably feel better somewhere else. I'd agree with Charles about voting on against full-on-wikifying ''Challenge''. I've also been one of several people writing-up the GoBots articles and I'd strenuously disagree with deleting them. There is plenty of information on even the scantiest of them, including at the minimum names, factions, actions taken. The wiki is replete with articles for less. In the case of virtually every Renegade, we get at least two adventures, personality, and alt modes. Some Guardians get similar treatment. A few characters have visuals. It'd be silly to torch them.

As I said, I've been thinking on this and I think there may be a compromise solution between the two extremes, one of a big list due to a relative paucity of material, the other of wikifying everything from ''Challenge.'' I propose we only wiki up what's actually been said about the characters in a Transformers medium... but, to give the articles a little more oomph, we add in a main picture from ''Challenge'' if (and only if) there is no official Transformers image available. We've in the past shown a willingness to use these images in the notes section, so we'd only be bumping them up to the top. The copyright shouldn't be an issue, Challenge of the Gobots sports a Tonka copyright, and Tonka is wholly owned by Hasbro. This way we're still limiting to the "facts" of Transformers, but the articles will look and feel a little more robust. Only one image per character, and then only if they haven't gotten an official illustration. Thoughts?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:45, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:It is unacceptable to catalog "Challenge" here. It is not and never has been owned by a Transformers license-holder, and I can't fathom how this could be seen as a weak argument. Even if AVP made every GoBot article 20 pages long, the cartoon never had the stamp and so any form of systematic involvement should be out. If that means a whole slew of articles with no main images, then that is the price for creating so many individual articles instead of a list. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 21:55, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

http://machinerobo.wikia.com/wiki/Gobots

Have fun. --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] ([[User talk:Monzo|talk]]) 21:57, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

I feel like everyone's forgetting that even before AVP came into play, we had images from COTG on the wiki-Cy-Kill, the E-Hobby pack, Doctor Braxis, all in the notes section. The ones that didn't, I think nobody just felt like adding them. Fracture had Crasher's image in her notes section, and Deadlift had Spoons. So, yes, as long as they're in the notes section, with the images having all the copyright information. they'll probably be fine.

As for the wiki, I feel like a great many of us would rather have a sister site than some ad-filled mess of a page. My computer can't even handle going on it for a full minute without making me restart it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 22:02, 25 October 2015 (EDT)

::What Thy said. This is not fucking up for debate. All the AVP end-run wank isn't going to change the FACT that large swaths of the GoBots IP are NOT owned by Hasbro, including the cartoon and toys said cartoon was derived from, the latter being owned by a direct competitor to both TF-owning companies. Frankly, I'm not even sure what, if anything, Hasbro DOES own from that IP, given they haven't used an overtly-GoBots Trademark in what, a decade? At best they MIGHT still own the name "GoBots", and I mean "own" in the sense that "nobody's bothered to challenge it so far". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 22:15, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:::My two cents is that despite my personal wish for all GoBots information to go on tfwiki, I say that as long as this wiki's rules are based on ''Transformers'' information (Hasbro, Takara, etc.-only), then the non-Hasbro owned CotG cartoon and such doesn't go on this wiki. In addition for convenience of navigation for ''GoBots'' fans, a sister wiki for ''GoBots'' would help for finding strictly ''GoBots'' information. Also, if we were to put CotG on the wiki, then on principle would we have to add in ''Robotix'' and all the Cymond Cluster franchises (''Brave'', ''Zoids'', etc) because they're in the ''Transformers'' multiverse?
:::With regards to ''GoBots'' material in ''Transformers'' works ("Withered Hope", Renegade Rhetoric, the hopefully upcoming "Spatiotemporal Challenges", etc.), I say that it goes on the wiki because it was distributed through a ''Transformers'' medium. And gets individual articles as does ''G.I. Joe'' or anything like that. And given the influence of ''GoBots'' on ''Transformers'', I agree that we make the exception to use limited CotG screencaps as the main pictures for ''GoBots'' characters on the wiki since we've been doing that for years in notes sections. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 01:42, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I vote against turning an EXCEPTION from like 4 pages into THE RULE on a hundred. "Challenge" screencaps should not be used as main pics on every single GoBot page. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 11:21, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::Reiterating this point: since the individual articles already exist it's probably just easier to leave them. However, I strongly suggest a ''total block on any further use of any unlicensed GoBots media appearances, of any kind. No more "Challenge," no more coloring books, not even as Notes, let alone as main pics.'' If folks want to leave up the small handful of longstanding examples we've got, eh. But since there a very real distinction between GoBots IP that is allowed / available and that which is not, we should draw a firm line, stick with it, and prevent any further inclusion of material that doesn't pass the usual rules of ownership / licensing. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:03, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Oh, yes, nothing past the requirements should be included. I do agree with that. And I doubt we'll have any more Gobots related stuff for AVP. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:08, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Nays are having it so far. <br>
Giggidy's suggestion of putting screencaps in Notes for some pages seems like workable, unless there's acopyright issue o people will consider it thin-edging the wedge --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 08:04, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

I might've been in favour of it before, but I too have swung around to thinking the ''Challenge'' cartoon doesn't fall within our remit, as a piece of media that was not ever, and is still not, owned or licensed by a Transformers rights-holder. I'm not averse to using screencaps from the cartoon for pictures, though. I'd also say we can definitely merge the components of Puzzler and [[Monsterous]] into singular articles under the combiner names. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 06:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Much of the story information that AVP revealed about the GoBots characters is straightforward recapitulation of episodes of CotG. Do we need/want to put a note to that effect on the character pages? If so, should it just be something general like "events are adapted from the CotG cartoon" or should we note the episode titles for the different events? Should/could we link to Counter-X's episode summaries? --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 11:19, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:Most of the AVP stuff seems to be original. Where it's not I've been mentioning the episodes. Linking to Counter-X is a good idea. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 11:51, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Not sure how much of a vote is actually happening here, but me and my seven years worth of contributions vote '''No''' to ''Challenge'' or further GoBots additions to the Wiki. I would remove or block any individual pages for GoBots characters due to AVP. I already think tongue-in-cheek reference pages like [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] are silly, and probably contributed to the all-inclusive mentality people are fighting against here.

Has/Tak only owns a small fragment of GoBots IP. This Wiki, like ''every Wiki and every fan website on the internet'', exists at the sufferance of the property's owners. So while there are in-universe, multiversal collaborations between Marvel and DC continuity, you'll notice they still retain separate Wikis. It doesn't matter how closely related Transformers and GoBots become in the fictional realities -- real world reality has to govern this site.

Personally, I like the way the Marvel Wiki deals with Transformers -- each issue of the Marvel Comic contains an issue summary and cast list of the Marvel story, but the individual links on that page leave the Marvel wiki and go to the Transformers wiki (albeit the wrong TF Wiki, but they ''are'' on wikia). There is no [[Bluestreak (G1)]] page on the Marvel Database, even though he appeared in a Marvel Comic...just a link to a Transformers wiki that can actually cover the character in-depth as he deserves.

My recommendation is to reduce all of Renegades Rhetoric to a single story page, chronicling the many adventures and details provided by Has/Tak owned Axiom Nexus's Cy-Kill in one place, with no individual Guardian or Renegade pages on this wiki. If and when a functional Gobots Wiki is created, link the characters and concepts to THAT wiki where they can be covered in full. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 11:50, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:That tactic gets my vote. The "minor joke article" was a bit of harmless fun back when the franchise was much smaller, and we do '''''not''''' need to kowtow to it when something comes along to abuse the wiki's "system" to do something of dubious legal standing. (Really ought to look at how the GB page addresses Hasbro's "ownership" and elaborate.) For the quadzillionth time, our "rules" need to be flexible and typically ARE, but some people really just can't handle the idea of not treating everything with the same ironclad law at all times, no matter what affect it has on the overall wiki. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 14:41, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I vote against it. Ultimately passing the buck off to another wiki isn't my idea of being informative. Where others would do that, we work hard to cover as much as what falls within our realm to cover. (Which, as it happens, does NOT include the COTG cartoon) That's what makes us stand out, in terms of both content and quality, above many other wikis out there. And I don't even think the franchise was ever even that small. That was just an illusion created by the fact that a lot of it had gone on undocumented for a long time. People need to stop making this out like its some kind of personal attack against us. What's it gonna harm that there are a few pages out there like the Harrison Ford page article? Are people gonna flip out and swear never to use our wiki again if they stumble across it? Are we going to be sneered at and ridiculed by some internet aristocracy because our "credibility" will be in doubt or something? I doubt its eating up much space in terms of bandwith or whatever. And no one will make any legal advance that has any ground here. Wikis wouldn't exist as a concept if that would regularly happen. Where is the harm? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 14:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::That's a "nay" from me on cutting the small number of deliberately silly pages: we're long past the point that this wiki can say that's not on, unless we can say that it puts people off visiting. Casual fans and browsers seem to like them. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:22, 26 October 2015 (GMT)
::::I wasn't actually advocating removing the Harrison Ford-style joke articles. (Not a fan of taking a whole article to say "Somebody mentioned [[Broadside (SG)]] once!", either.) Just pointing out pages like that contributed to the mind set of including articles for every person, place, or thing mentioned in Transformers fiction. The difference, of course, is that no one is trying to write up full articles about the ''Indiana Jones'' franchise here instead of making an Indy wiki. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:30, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I wasn't either. I'd have thought the intention was clear: that the allowing of "harmless fun" articles of small references from when the franchise was VASTLY smaller was now being intentionally abused as an end-run around something that was decided against long ago for being not-HasTak-owned/licensed, one of the few pretty concrete rules we do have, and a fundamental one at that. Therefore I have no compunctions about making an exception to the general guideline (which we often have to do anyway) and compacting the information to a minimal number of pages... especially given the dubious nature of Hasbro's "ownership" of the GoBots IP (among other IPs mentioned in certain sources). --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:32, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I actually expected more arguments for adding COTG material - check up the page and there ''have'' been more! Interest seems to have collapsed. -- [[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 26 October 2015 (GMT)

Honestly, at this point, most-if not all-articles for the Gobots have been created. I really don't think it would hurt anyone to just leave them up. We can argue about all the IP ownership all we want, but as Ascendron already pointed out, we have other articles that don't exactly line up with Hasbro-owned stuff either-Hasbro certainly didn't shout at IDW for including Transformers in a Crossover that also involved a rival company (Playmates and Ninja Turtles). [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:39, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:...Are you actually contending that IDW didn't run the scope and parameters of the giant crossover by Hasbro ''at all'' before doing it? That the crossover wasn't extensively okayed by every rightsholder involved beforehand? Because there's no other way to interpret what you just said, and that's a staggeringly stupid premise. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 18:49, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::Stay classy, M Sipher. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:06, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:::classy? is this the part of the thread where we equate gay marriage to gobots being on the transformers wiki --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky|talk]]) 20:17, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::::I don't believe he was literally equating the two-he was using a recent example of rules changing from previous. Could he have used a better example? Yes, probably, but I understood what he was getting at, and I say this as someone who would be affected by said laws. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 20:44, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

::No, of course not. However, what I can say from experience: as our audience grew bigger, we did go back and make changes to the older gobots-involved answers. A couple model sheets here and there were deleted, because Warner Bros could have potentially sued Hasbro. I don't think we would've even gone through with Cy-Kill if it hadn't been without someone giving us the okay first-and even then, we made sure to delete an old avatar with Cy-Kill Hanna-Barbara face on it. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

I'd be okay with a separate wiki that we could just link to when GoBots came up. I mean, the GoBots franchise has been basically dead for thirty years outside of a few winks from Transformers (with the exception of the Cy-Kill thing that started this whole debate), so I don't think it'd ever get too out of hand. Obviously time, money, and access to the show are factors in this solution, so it might not be 100% viable. [[User:Grum|Grum]] ([[User talk:Grum|talk]]) 19:57, 26 October 2015 (EDT)

Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but if the whole not-Hasbro IP thing matters for this wiki, then what stops sites like the Machine Robo wikia from using any ''GoBots'' material at all? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:55, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
:The rules of this web site have no relevance to any other wikis, and the Machine Robo wikia does indeed include GoBots material. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 22:12, 26 October 2015 (EDT)
::I was debating with myself whether or not to make this post, but it's going to bug me if I don't. Here goes. Obviously, a lot of us have become pretty emotionally involved in this topic. People say hurtful and stupid things when emotions run high. But if you're going to debate with someone, its important to challenge their arguments, and not attack the debater themselves... Despite whatever slip-ups may happen. I don't really know any of you. I can't really call any of you friends, because I'm not involved in any forums, and I don't attend conventions... But I respect many people's work ethic here, especially since we're all volunteering our time for the wiki. For the information itself, I get it that people are getting upset that information is being "snuck in" as a deliberate attempt to get it documented on the wiki. But if someone else got the job of getting to create fiction related to the Transformers brand, and used it as they saw fit, well I'm hardly in a position to debate that. They get to do stuff I never will, and as an adult, I have to concede to such defeats. Ultimately, it comes down to this: I believe that, for the most part, keeping the information on separate pages as they are currently is the best and most informative way to share it with whoever chooses to browse our wiki. (Some of the combiner components can be combined, as their importance relates wholly to the fact that they're components to a more important character). If anyone is able to prove me wrong by presenting even a crude mock-up that shows a better way of accomplishing that task, I will gladly change my stance on the issue. But we can do that by being civil and respectful. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 04:40, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

Bottom line, GoBots shouldn't be treated any differently, and certainly not any ''better'', than G.I. Joe on this Wiki. The Joes are a fully owned Hasbro franchise with decades of interactive history with the Transformers brand, BUT...all the images of Snake Eyes or Cobra Commander on the TF Wiki are from TF stuff, not from the Sunbow cartoon that was not connected to ''Transformers''. No one is trying to explain [[Snake-Eyes]]' Vietnam origins in his Notes section, unlike the [[Doctor Braxis]] Notes section stuffed with COTG references. Because people understand that if you want to read about G.I. Joe, you go to a G.I. Joe website...which this isn't. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 13:02, 27 October 2015 (EDT)

====Vote Results====
It's been more than 24 hours with no movement one way or the other, and even then, the stuff from yesterday seems like rehashing old arguments. Is now a fair time to tally? The voting is complicated because there are multiple proposals on the table.

*Proposal: '''Complete cataloging of "''Challenge of the Gobots''"'''
**Supporters: Khajidha

*Proposal: '''Condensing all Ask Vector Prime GoBots pages down to just one or two master pages, probably ''Guardians'' and ''Renegades'' or ''Renegade Rhetoric'''''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Chris McFeely, Escargon, Charles RB, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, tentative Riptide

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include link to Counter-X website'''
**Supporters: Khajidha, Giggidy, Riptide, Saix

*Proposal: '''Treat Renegade Rhetoric like any other source, no condensation but also no expansion such as screen captures'''
**Supporters: Thylacine 2000

*Proposal: '''Pics from outside media goes in the notes section on character pages. Some Go-Bots pics can go there, otherwise wait until Transformers media includes original art of these characters.'''
**Supporters: Ascendron

I ''think'' I got everyone's position represented. Grum, I'm not really sure which camp you fell into. Regardless, it's clear that there's a solid majority in favor of documenting everything from Ask Vector Prime fully, with exceptions when it's sensible to do so such as with Puzzler and Monsterous. The good news is that this is exactly the current state of the wiki. No further action is required. Though it's ironic and a little sad that it took so much acrimony and name calling to get to the point of doing nothing different than we are now.

I'm less confident declaring victory on the screen capture question. M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, and Xaaron have all made their position against clear, as have the five supporters. I'd be curious to hear from <s>Khajidha, Ascendron, and</s> Grum on that issue before we go expanding them. I'm not sure if their silence indicates indifference, lack of awareness, or simply opposition to that proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 15:43, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Didn't say anything until now since I didn't really have anything new to add, but I would vote for Counter-X and... maaaaaybe screencaps, but I'm indecisive on that one. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 15:53, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:: I'm divided about the screencaps... My gut instinct says that it would be a good addition to the pages... But I almost would feel, I dunno, hypocritical giving my full support to their inclusion, seeing as I'm usually very steadfast in my stance of only including stuff that's official. I suppose I can justify it to myself, as their inclusion would do more good than harm as far as how informative they would make the articles... Let's just not go overboard with it? One pic for each guy, maybe less if a single picture does a good job of showcasing multiple characters? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:31, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::Yes, that was my original proposal. One and only one, less where possible. Couldn't agree more. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

:Actually, I'm in favor of complete GoBots coverage, but have bowed to the overwhelming opposition on that score. TOTALLY opposed to the wholesale reduction approach. Favor screen caps (but expect that not to come about). Favor Counter-X links. I would prefer that the combiner members have their own pages, but the limited information available currently makes the redirection to the combined form page at least as viable a solution.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 16:30, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:If we do include these screencaps, I would also like to request that we make it explicitly clear that they are not owned by Hasbro, and are not official Transformers images on the image's page itself. I was almost tempted to say in their captions on the characters' pages, but even I think that's a bit too extreme. So long as someone can learn quickly that the images do not come from an actual Transformers source if they make the effort of looking up the image's information. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:44, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
For full coverage on GoBots as given in any Transformers media. Counter-X links seem like a no-brainer. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 17:46, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:I said on Oct.26, 19:03, that it would probably at this point be best to leave all the articles up as they are. So if the only issue actually up for decision now is whether to include COTG screenshots, then I firmly vote against that, and see it as sufficiently against our rules of documenting official HasTak material that I'm not entirely sure a vote is even appropriate. We agree on AVP - well AVP itself says COTG screenshots aren't HasTak property and couldn't be used, hence why they themselves took down the first Cy-Kill picture. I think people should be satisfied with what they got. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 18:49, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::Sorry, I missed that. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:00, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
:::It's true that it's not in line with our policy entirely, but it would be nice for people reading the pages access to an image on the page, just so that they don't have to go hop over to google or whatever other website to see a visual representation of them. That's my main reasoning behind supporting this idea despite not being 100% behind it. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:19, 28 October 2015 (EDT)
::::At first, I think we could include Gobots cartoon here but now I changed my thoughts. They are not owned by Hasbro. But I wonder if Hasbro buys the rights to the cartoon, can we include the cartoon on this wiki then? I'm just curious.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 07:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I'd still say no because it's not ''Transformers''. Like I said with ''G.I.Joe'', we don't use images of Joes or Cobras from their 80's cartoon -- only from Transformers-related crossover media. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::<<<<<Not mentioning the Joe franchise character that actually has a non-TF related main pic....>>>>> --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 13:58, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Well we've got ''Transformers''-branded visuals for reference for ''G.I. Joe'' characters. Less so for ''GoBots'' characters. Would it not be prudent to have visual points of reference for the GoBots who have appeared in ''Transformers'' fiction? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::It absolutely would. But we don't HAVE visual points of reference for those GoBots from Transformers fiction. We would have to take images from other fiction/mediums. And if we did it for GoBots, why not add some pictures for [[Jem]], the Inhumanoids' [[Earth Corps]], or the [[Darkling Lord]]s? The aforementioned [[Harrison Ford]] and [[Indiana Jones]] pages don't have visual references either, for that matter. The [[Fantastic Four]] could probably use a better visual reference than that cropped cover border, so...
::::::::Do you see how this snowballs out of control? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 16:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::My initial suggestion of just putting a picture in the note section is still out there, by the way. I kinda dropped it because no one really seemed on board... But I figured if we have the leeway to put up pics outside of Transformers fiction there, like we did for the [[Beast (G1)|Beast]], and for that matter, [[Cy-Kill (GoBots)|Cy-kill]], we could just do the same for all the Go-Bots characters. I know it's kinda seem like a silly game of working our way through loopholes, but it still is what I would personally prefer... Best of both worlds kind of thing. We still get a visual representation of the character in the article itself, most articles are short enough that the picture would be apparent immediately, but we'd still be sticking to our policy of only using official pictures in the body of the article. The picture is there as an aside, an addition to a note of "by the way, this guy is from this cartoon not owned by Hasbro." Like, look at the [[Night Ranger]] article. That's a great article right there! All the Go-Bots articles should be formatted like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::That Night Ranger article actually turns me off the idea of putting pictures in the notes section. There's a huge unsightly gap of white space there between the external links section and the box with the categories in it. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 17:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::But that's only because that picture is a character model, which is taller than it is wide. Screencaps are wider than they are tall, and wouldn't create nearly as much whitespace! And we could do what we did with the [[Zebediah Braxis]] article, where we go in a bit of a brief overview of the character's role in the cartoon/ "Made-up Guy filled the role of the impressionable young kid-appeal character in the Go-Bots cartoon, similar as how Bumblebee did in the original Transformers cartoon." Something like that. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:07, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::...Which goes right back to doing what we were complaining about in the first place, which is detailing COTG on the TFWiki! This is how quickly it gets out of control. "Well, we're not allowed to cover ''Challenge of the GoBots'', but these pages would look nicer with some images. Okay, we're allowed to put one image in the Notes section as a visual reference, but now it looks unsightly so we'll add some details about COTG to justify having the pictures. Okay, well, we're already talking about COTG in the Notes now, so..."
:::::::::::: - Covering the GoBots material produced under the Transformers franchise...Yes.
:::::::::::: - Adding non-TF GoBots material so that the TF GoBots pages look better...No. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 17:24, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::I think it looking "unsightly" is really a minor problem. And I didn't mean covering their every appearance. More along the lines of a blip of information. I'm sure a few characters could have more notes that would be informative and interesting to "pad out" the note section if the white space is that big of an issue, (which I don't think it is... Ugly, maybe, but I'd rather have an article that is "unsightly" than uninformative or goes against the wiki's rules.) Stuff like "he was also voiced by this guy who voiced this transformers character" or "this Transformers character is an homage to him," if stuff like that applies. You know, things that we already do for other character pages anyways. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:33, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::::::::::Honestly the more the argument for adding in '''hundreds''' of unlicensed, non-TF images comes to hinge desperately on "You did it 5 years ago for Dr. Braxis and 8 years ago for Cobra Commander!", the more it starts to be an argument for deleting those pictures from Dr. Braxis and Cobra Commander. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::::::::::It's not like there's a shortage of CC images from TF fiction. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 04:04, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Just to note here, with all the comparisons being made to our handling of ''G.I. Joe'', we've ''always'' treated the Joes with more leeway than we have, say, Spider-Man or Godzilla. A ''lot'' of our Joe articles include real names and factoids taken from filecards and such, and yes, even in one isolated instance a piece of art that's not from a TF source, because there was no point to the "wilful ignorance" gag, since it wasn't ''funny'' - everyone knows who Spider-Man and Godzilla are, but nobody knows who [[Sci-Fi|Seymour P. Fine]] is. There's no need for such wilful ignorance on Go-Bots either, given how repeatedly tied-in to Transformers it has become - it's not a [[Simon Belmondo]] or a [[Solid Snake]], it's as much part of the Transformers "family" now as Joe is, even if its situation is a bit thornier. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 17:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:If I could make another suggestion. Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up? It is what kicked off this whole discussion. I don't want to "encourage" the feature to "spam" a whole bunch of Gobots screencaps... But it has already brought in a little bit of artwork for Go-Bots articles anyways, and with both VP's return to the storyline, and contact having been made to a Gargent Universe recently, any number of things could happen to influence this discussion one way or another, or even render it moot. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::Unless Hasbro buys Bandai and/or Hanna-Barbera, nothing in AVP could change that we're really not allowed to have systematic coverage of Challenge (and that includes screencaps on ~100 articles) here. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 19:08, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::We're allowed to cover whatever we decide is in scope. We have no affiliation with Hasbro. The fact that the copyright notice on the episodes themselves gives ownership to Tonka, a Hasbro subsidiary, is a bonus. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:20, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::AVP already HAS posted screencaps that were are using... Not to mention some original art of Cy-kill. It's a longshot, but it's already happened once. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I actually don't like using most of those screencaps - they WEREN'T posted by AVP, they were posted by dickish users trying to game the system, and were only ''acknowledged'' by Cy-Kill. Further, a quick look back at the FB page suggests the question threads they were posted in were deleted. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 19:28, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::Just checked, they're still there. However, I wouldn't use them outside the Src page. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Hmm... Should we use the pics AVP deleted outside of source pages at all? Thinking about the Cy-Kill profile pic. Not like we don't have another one to replace it with. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:43, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Escargon is correct, we haven't deleted anything recently. Chris is also correct, you haven't seen us post screen captures from Challenge in the pages of Ask Vector Prime. We have acknowledged art and captures that others have posted. Also, regarding this: "Could we maybe forestall this discussion until after AVP has wrapped up?", it might be a long wait. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] ([[User talk:Jimsorenson|talk]]) 19:47, 29 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::::I hadn't realized that AVP hadn't posted those pics themselves (not gotten to that point yet while working through it in my sandbox. In light of this, I've changed my stance, and changed up there earlier in this thread. I'm now going to stay out of this conversation, since I want to dedicate my energies to other stuff for the time being. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 19:54, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

With no activity on this page for 3 days, I think we can comfortably assess the results. It looks like the vote was better than 2:1 in favor of including Challenge of the GoBots screen captures on the pages, but a healthy caution against overuse. One and only one image per page, and only when official images are not available.

I've also done some homework into the copyright status and it would appear that Warner Bros. is still acknowledging Hasbro's copyright claim. Each '''Challenge of the Gobots''' box set and disk is marked with text to the effect of "GOBOTS and all related characters and elements are trademarks of and (C) [[Hasbro]] Inc." The only thing Hanna-Barbera lays claim to is the actual compilation of the DVDs, and even that is in conjunction with Hasbro: "Program Compilation (C) Hanna-Barbera and Hasbro Inc." The DVD packaging, however, is off-limits. "Package Design (C) Hanna-Barbera and and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc." The episodes themselves give copyright exclusively to [[Tonka]]. Hopefully this reassures some of Xaaron's concerns, which seemed more legal than philosophical. There are links to photos of the copyright notices on my user page. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 01:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Or maybe with 3 days of inactivity on this page, we can consider the matter tabled, what with how time after time the more people talk about it and actually listen to counterpoints the more they realize it's a bad idea and (as we see above) come to change their minds to be against it. If the character and animation likenesses are off-limits even to AVP in the last few days, that should give pause. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 07:05, 3 November 2015 (EST)

*WHAT AM I ARGUING AGAINST AND IS ANGER AN APPROPRIATE RESPONSE?!?
SRSLY, though? If some user's posted screencaps make those screencaps TF canon - wouldn't the poster themselves also become canon? Wouldn't Facebook become canon?
Draw the damn line, people; we're never going to be a comprehensive GoBots source unless we fully document the toyline and the cartoon. That ain't happening, not on this wiki at least. Accept that, and our mandate is back to recording only what's mentioned in official TF sources, even obnoxiously, willfully fanwankish ones like AVP alas. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 07:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Why not redraw the line to include all GoBots materials? No, it doesn't fit the current definition of our mandate but it is a logically consistent one. No, we would not then have to include all GIJoe, etc materials because there is a fundamental difference. GIJoe is in the same universe as Transformers, GoBots have been declared to be Transformers. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 08:34, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::You answer your own question: It isn't within our mandate and it's not logically consistent because we really then should put in all of GIJoe but we won't do GIJoe because reasons. This has always been a push to change the scope and inclusion criteria for this wiki due to arbitrary personal favoritism. It could only be indulged through this sort of arbitrary personal favoritism. That's not what standards are for. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:36, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::You missed my point. It's not within the current mandate, but we could redraw the line to make it our new mandate. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I would further suggest that we've settled this issue, at least until [http://www.slashfilm.com/gobots-movie-hasbro/ something new comes along to change it], so this discussion becomes a distraction from a genuinely unsettled question. I'm not saying your arguments are invalid, Khajidha, I'm saying that everyone's heard them and there was a clear and convincing consensus against you. Sometimes when that happens, the adult and mature thing to do is concede that you're in the minority and move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:41, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Go. Make. A. GoBots. Wiki. "Problem" solved. -- [[User:Repowers|Repowers]] ([[User talk:Repowers|talk]]) 19:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)

====Vote Results again for reals maybe? Focus only on Screencapture====

*Proposal: '''No Screen Captures'''
**Supporters: Xaaron, M Sipher, Thylacine 2000, Repowers, ItsWalky, Nevermore, Chris McFeely, Ascendron

*Proposal: '''Expand coverage of Ask Vector Prime GoBots to include '''limited''' "''Challenge of the Gobots''" screen captures, either in notes or main page'''
**Supporters: Giggidy, Escargon, S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47, Khajidha, Saix

*Proposal: '''Screen captures on a case by case basis'''
**Supporters: Abates, Charles RB, Riptide

This is where the current vote stands focusing entirely on the issue of screen captures. Repowers, I took the liberty of adding you to the no column. Please feel free to remove if you like. Thylacine 2000, I respect your passion but there is a difference between "my argument convinced one guy to change his proposal from screen captures in every main page section to screen captures in every notes sections" to "my argument is so good I've picked up supporters in droves." You've said lots and lots and lots of words on this subject and you're still losing 2:1.--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:And you've said some pretty outrageous and dishonest words on this topic, including immediately above this. At the very least, Ascendron, Escargon, and McFeely changed their positions to be against. This is the second time in a week that you have just happened to get the results wrong in a way that just happens to benefit your side. It is really depressing, though no doubt I only feel that way because I'm a violent gaybasher or however you choose to characterize this dispute. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 09:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:I think including one image for informative purposes in the notes section is fine—just as a "this is what this character looks like". This isn't what I want, but I feel like it's a fair enough compromise. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:17, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I don't think I have misrepresented their positions, but if I do I apologize. Ascendron said he was moving to notes. McFeely came out in support of the screen capture proposal but didn't like the current way screen captures posted in the AVP comments and acknowledged by Cy-Kill were handled. Not sure what you're talking about with Escargon. But, to do due diligence, I'll follow up with all three. And I am not, and have not, and hopefully will not attack your character in any way. Also, as far as I can tell, going over the edit history, if I got the first vote wrong it was because I conservatively underestimated support for my proposal. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:27, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::I only said my vote on including everything from Gobots probably shouldn't count since I worked on the thing. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 09:31, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::Well, it would appear that an apology is in order. You, Thylacine, indeed had a better read on the vote than I. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:04, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I'm in favour of CotG screencaps, but '''only''' in the notes. Main page inclusion is a step too far, I think, and would be more prone to "well we already do [x] why not include the whole thing". --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 11:00, 3 November 2015 (EST)
Point of order: since the inclusion of ''COTG'' screenshots is still a potential legal issue, and one of the votes in the '''No''' column is from [[User:ItsWalky|the guy who owns the Wiki]], is a democratic vote really the proper resolution for this matter? --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 10:37, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Again, the DVDs (photos on my user page) recently released and still being distributed by Warner Bros. give copyright of everything Gobots to Hasbro, and gives the "program compilation" a shared copyright between Hasbro and Hanna-Barbera. But, this is ItsWalky's wiki. If he feels that a vote is out of order I will shut up and graciously concede defeat. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 10:42, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::I think the fact that AVP was not able to use screen caps from Challenge of the GoBots trumps any copyright notices on the DVD box sets, however in this case I don't think it's relevant to this Wiki being able to use them in the notes section of articles. We're talking about a bunch of articles about characters with very little fiction and no visual representation, so the question becomes a matter of "will including screencaps really make much of a difference to the information they contain?" I think screencaps make sense where a GoBots character has a visual representation like [[Bug Bite (GoBots)|Bug Bite]] and we want to compare what they looked like in GoBots fiction to what they looked like in Transformers fiction, but not so much where the character has no Transformers representation to begin with. In this case I think it's more effective to just include a link to a GoBots site which would give more information about the GoBots character as well as visual representation. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 15:04, 3 November 2015 (EST)

TL;DR. My comment: Full inclusion of HB GoBots. Yes. <span style="font-size:300%">Over my dead body.</span>--[[User:Nevermore|Nevermore]] ([[User talk:Nevermore|talk]]) 13:59, 3 November 2015 (EST)

The "slippery slope" argument is winning me over. I'm still in favour of ''limited'' screencaps: the ones acknowledged by AVP, the model sheets and such for key people like Bug Bite, the original Cy-Kill profile (even if we scrap the rest I'd argue for this to come in under the same reason Cobra Commander's got that kick-the-dog one, i.e. it looks better). We're likely at the limits of limited already though. Who else could we reasonably add? --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:26, 3 November 2015 (GMT)
:My suggestion would be screencaps, at a maximum of one per page, for 1) those characters with major enough appearance in Transformers fiction (e.g. the e-Hobby GoBots and Cy-Kill, probably a few others), and 2) those with visuals acknowledged by Ask Vector Prime. Otherwise, links are fine. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Another three days with no activity, and I'm big enough to acknowledge that the momentum has shifted. I count 8 against screen captures, 5 in favor, and 3 in favor of limited. Basically a tie, and I think ties need to go to the more conservative, i.e. not my, position. As with article creation, the screen capture issue seems to go to no change from our current policy. A long and and acrimonious road to get to the point of no change. I apologize if my arguments along the way caused offense. Hopefully we can move on. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:49, 6 November 2015 (EST)
: Fair's fair -- you help me dispose of Nevermore's <span style="font-size:300%">dead body</span>, and we'll call everything even. --[[User:Xaaron|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron|talk]]) 09:06, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Who's that <s>Pokemon</s> character? ==
<s>I'm going through posting pics up for [[Cybertron's Most Wanted]], but need you guys' help to identify some of these guys! '''[[:File:UnknownTransTechandRattrapTranstech-CMW.jpg|This is the first character]]''' I can't identify. (He is listed as the question mark in the number 7 slot of the featured characters section.) He's not [[Starscream (TransTech)]] as I initially thought. Starscream appears later in the issue, and is definitely visually distinct.</s> '''[[:File:UnknownoffworlderandWindblade-CMW.jpg|This is the second character]]''' I can't identify. (The green one, not Windblade, listed as the question mark at #23 in the featured characters section). Although there is a slight possibility that he's supposed to be a generic, I highly doubt it since every single other character on the page is a specific guy or gal. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 15:26, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:Maybe the first guy is just Starscream misdrawn? This post and picture from the Rook blog indicates so. [https://www.facebook.com/AxiomNewsRook/photos/pb.890548954322059.-2207520000.1439583294./906676859375935/?type=1&theater ] [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:17, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::Ah, well, if that post says so. That's also a much nicer version of the image I just uploaded... [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:37, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::By the way, what about that dog-looking thing on the streets on page 1? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:45, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::That's just a [[turbofox]], I believe. Not an actual "character" per se. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:53, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Actually, Jesse's said on the Allspark that it's meant to be the wolf Mini-Con from Classics. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 18:22, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::Shows what I know. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 18:27, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Anotheruniodentifiedoffworlder-CMW.jpg|Here's another guy]]''' I can't identify. He's mostly obscured by text boxes, which makes it even harder. However, he's in the same panel as the other unidentified green guy, as well as the two [[Windblade (G1)|Windblades]]. He may or may not be a double to the other green offworlder, considering who else is in the panel. In any case, we're looking at the back of an orange head, big green shoulder kibble, with some yellow details on the arm from the looks of it. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:10, 14 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: '''[[:File:Offworlderprisoners-CMW.jpg|Here's another bunch]]'''. I Think the red guy's Ironhide? But the vents on the side of his head are throwing me off. The two bug guys at the bottom, I have no idea. [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:39, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::: <s>'''[[:File:Unknownprisoninmate-CMW.jpg|And another]]'''. I'm assuming some of these guys are homages to non-Transformers franchises.</s> [[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 23:42, 15 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::Hmm. The guy on the bottom left of the one with Hellbat looks like a Kamen Rider that Matt drew in Spotlight: Trailcutter. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::::Oh, yeah! The colour scheme between this one and "[[V3]]" are pretty different though. Is it patterned after another character of that franchise? That way I can give it a "nickname".[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 20:12, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::::Don't know much about it, sadly. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 23:05, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
::::::That "unknown inmate" is totally based on Kamen Rider Amazon. -[[User:Ookalf|Ookalf]] ([[User talk:Ookalf|talk]]) 19:34, 16 August 2015 (EDT)
===AllSpark Almanac===
<s>So I noticed '''[[:File:Unknownrobocritter-AAII.jpg|this guy]]''' in the second AllSpark Almanac. I was not gonna bother with it, but then decided of anyone might recognize it as an actual character, and not just some generic critter. Mainly because, this is the AllSpark Almanac, and it has homages and Easter Eggs out the wazoo. If no one can think of anything though, I'll just assume it's a generic that's not noteworthy. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 16:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)</s>
:Catillia, according to Forster's deviantart. Also a snake on that page is named something like 1412 or something like that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:54, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Thanks, I looked it up, and he says he "stuck in" his real life snake (named 1812). I don't particularly feel that's worth including. If anyone feels otherwise, I can be persuaded to upload the picture and make the page, however. --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 17:21, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

==Apocrypha and Vector Prime==
There have been a few parallel discussions about apocryphal works. [[Alignment]], [[Doomsday Redux!]], [[Bumblebee at Tyger Pax]]. User Grum went ahead and removed the Apocrypha template from Bumblebee at Tyger Pax, prompting a short discussion. I put forth the question on Doomsday Redux!, and by extension on the other unreleased Energon comics that scripts are available for, and got little response. Alignment had quite a robust debate when the AllSpark Almanac came out, but not much since then. All three have been declared to have happened by Vector Prime, and in their primary universes as opposed to in some splinter timeline. Is there value to keeping the Apocrypha template, versus just having a note detailing the unusual circumstance of the publication? It seems like something that should get a greater discussion than it's getting. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 00:05, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:They're. Still. Fucking. Apocrypha. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher|talk]]) 03:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::Since Doomsday Redux was approved by Hasbro and declared to be canon even though it was unreleased, I think that one maybe merits a little more discussion. The others, not so much; even if they're canon from an in-universe perspective, they still aren't Hasbro-approved. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 05:07, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
:::A story that was officially commissioned and scheduled, then yanked because of licensee bankruptcy, should be listed as no different than a canceled toy. An explanatory note afterwards can be enough. But something that was never licensed cannot be licensed after-the-fact just through assertions and "oh, come on!"-ism. --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000|talk]]) 08:04, 18 August 2015 (EDT)
::::I tend to agree. I'd suggest that Vector Prime's statements be added to the notes section, and perhaps the stories be slotted into the appropriate position in the navigation track. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 09:23, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

== Galvatron II style linking ==

So I've noticed that there's been some disagreements on how to organize articles such as, say, Spychanger Prime or Balancing Act Prime. Perhaps we could implant a Galvatron II style system; link both in the main article, along with a suite. Also it could be used for the Thirteen and their Uniend selves, for the time being, I suppose. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:37, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:What if we did something like this for [[Screech (Generations)|Screech]] since he is 1 version of G1 Skids? Or [[Razorclaw (Universe)|Razorclaw]] since he's 1 version of Tigerhawk? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:51, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::Quite honestly, I don't think I would have a problem with that. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 19:54, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::Seems promising. Maybe sandbox one? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 21:39, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
::::Unfortunately, I couldn't make a sandbox to save a life. [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (EDT)
:::::There are a couple of other characters that might also benefit from this - BW Megatron and Noble, Overlord and Gigatron maybe... I think it's probably worth looking into. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 14:17, 1 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::I've added a suite to the (hopefully non-controversial) example of [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]] and [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]]. What do we think? Does it work? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 04:06, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::::::I like it. It's simple and elegant. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 08:50, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:::::::I find it pointless and cluttering. We don't slap "Galvatron" into Megatron's suite, despite better character continuity than Silverbolt and Jetstorm. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 09:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Oh yeah, I forgot that time Galvatron got turned back into Megatron at the end of the series --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 12:16, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity#The Battlestars manga and story pages|I guess you did?]] [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 13:23, 3 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Granted, but you're both stretching the definition of series and opening up a bit of a can of worms regarding where we draw the line at different "versions" of the same "character" anyway. G1 Galvatron and Megatron were treated separately mainly because the sheer volume of material for both meant it made sense for us to do it that way but all the times G1 Bumblebee became Goldbug (and sometimes went back again) are all covered on one page, as are UT Cyclonus/Snow Cat, Tidal Wave/Mirage, G1 Overlord/Gigatron, Hot Rod/Rodimus Prime and all the UT Megatrons and Galvatrons. Yet BW/BM Waspinator/Thrust, Rhinox/Tankor, Silverbolt/Jetstorm and Megatron/Noble are separate pages. That's a whole other debate and I don't particularly want to dredge up any of those cases as they've all been done to death a million times before (except for maybe Overlord/Gigatron, I feel there's a clear split that could be made there and linked this way) but I do think this as a good way of dealing with what we do have. It doesn't take up a lot of room and it would only apply to a handful of cases at best anyway. --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 16:09, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::::In the case of the Vehicon generals, that's because they're different characters that happen to use the same sparks as pre-established characters. The others are functionally "same guy, but with a new name". I thought that was clear. (Megatron as Noble is detailed on his page, so I dunno why you brought him up.) [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 01:53, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Looks fine and dandy to me. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:34, 3 November 2015 (GMT)

==Notes and images==
I seem to remember that there was some clever way of adding notes so that they don't break onto a new line when up against a left-aligned image, but for the life of me I can't find it by searching. Can anyone hit me up with the codez? --[[User:Emvee|Emvee]] ([[User talk:Emvee|talk]]) 05:27, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

== Timelines fiction release order links ==

I have noticed that where it is so, a ''Timelines'' story's primary previous or next story arrow points to the BotCon comic if it has the closest release date. However, the primary previous and next story arrows on BotCon comics' pages always point to other BotCon comics because they actually have a "Volume" order to go with. It seems inappropriate to me a story point to another which is not also linked to it. So what do we do, for instance, with "[[Burning Bridges]]", the first non-Facebook ''Timelines'' story to come out after BotCon 2015's "[[Cybertron's Most Wanted]]" and "[[The Return of Blurr]]"? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 00:39, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:I think the idea of putting all of the disparate Timlines stories in chronological order for the template is stupid. What exactly is gained there? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:43, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::It was probably workable at some point, but it's long since lost any functionality, I think. We keep winding up with stories that have like three or four "previous" or "next" links. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:19, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
:::Right. It's excess that only exists to do stuff like link "[[Collections]]" to "[[Head Games]]" because... why? How does that really help readers? It really should just be limited to the specific media (script readings, etc.) and continuity (Wings Universe, etc.), not a grab-bag of random stories that just happen to be under the Timelines banner. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:29, 18 September 2015 (EDT)
::::Would anyone object if I went and removed all previous and next release order story links, leaving in only previous and next continuity story links? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:38, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

== Harmonic resonance ==

So throughout [[Ask Vector Prime]], the theme of "trans-dimensional harmonic resonance"/"quantum harmonic resonance" has come up as an in-universe explanation for most commonly used characters (i.e. the franchise tropes of Optimus Prime, Megatron, Grimlock, etc.), design re-use across continuity families (i.e. pre-Transformer toys which got recycled as Transformers toys), mistaken use of story elements which seemingly don't belong (i.e. ''Armada'' Beast Wars in "[[Fire in the Dark]]"), other things (i.e. RiD Unicron as a seemingly mundane Transformer who (not) coincidentally became a universe-destroying planet), etc. Do we want to make a page(s) about this and how should we handle it? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 21:23, 9 October 2015 (EDT)
:Same way anything else is handled? Create an article and document the things VP said about it? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] ([[User talk:KilMichaelMcC|talk]]) 21:25, 9 October 2015 (EDT)

== Online Transformers Games help request ==
So, I've recently been frustrated with the fact that many online games have been taken down, making it really hard to create articles for them. I've been doing well creating articles for them up to now, either finding copies of the games on other websites or cobbling together articles by watching play-throughs on Youtube. However, I've hit upon my first real snag with "[[Transformers Prime: Beast Hunters Game]]." I can't find any footage of it whatsoever anywhere, and the game doesn't seem to load on the Hasbro or Hub website. I never played the game, so I can't create anything from memory either. Anyone has anything to help me out with this? --[[User:Ascendron|Ascendron]] ([[User talk:Ascendron|talk]]) 22:29, 17 October 2015 (EDT)

== Repurposing vs Multi-family toys ==
Over on the discussion about [[Talk:Clampdown (RID)|Clampdown]], M Sipher raised an excellent point about how silly it is to not have the Clampdown [[Kreon]] on the Clampdown [[Transformers: Robots in Disguise (2015 franchise)|Robots in Disguise]] page. This dovetailed nicely with my own musings on the subject. Right now, technically, the way the wiki is organized if we wanted to have that toy on two pages we'd have to arbitrarily declare one Clampdown to be a [[repurposing]] of the other, which I find to be ridiculous. I had a discussion on one of the talk pages about removing the repurposing label from toys that were simply imported from one continuity family to another, only to be shot down.

As a compromise position, I've worked up a related idea: "multi-family toys". That is to say, a toy that seems to exist more-or-less unchanged across multiple families. This seems like a distinct idea from a straight-up repurpose. To me, at least, there seems to be a fundamental difference from someone like [[Dirge (Armada)|Armada Dirge]], which is a brand-new character based on a toy with a different name and bio, to someone like [[Lockdown (G1)|IDW's Lockdown]]. Furthermore, [[Ask Vector Prime]] has formalized the idea that Hasbro's been running with, namely that a character can comfortably exist across multiple [[continuity family|continuity families]] and that this is no big deal.

This is my go at introducing the idea: [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys]]. Any feedback would be appreciated. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:34, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
:I agree with Kre-O but ROTF Lockdown figure didn't meant to be G1 Lockdown when it was produced. He meant to be Movie version of Lockdown. so G1 version is indeed a repurpose.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 10:01, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
:I like the idea of separating the concept of "Foo was repurposed as Foo" from that of "Foo was repurposed as Bar". I still think it would be better to have the Kre-O and various Iocus-cluster toys on their own pages while leaving only a heading and a link out from the pages of characters they are visually based upon.--[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha|talk]]) 10:53, 31 October 2015 (EDT)
::I don't feel strongly one way or the other about Kre-O. I'm solidly on-board with the way the merchandise is currently handled and disagree with making Iocus-cluster pages for all the merch. I can see how it's an intellectually coherent position to want to do so... but I don't like it. If we do decide to keep merchandise on its own page as its own character as well as on the local pages, then I'd consider it a [[User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Toys|Multi-Family Toy]]. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:28, 31 October 2015 (EDT)

== Multiversal singularities ==

Now that AVP on Facebook has publicly acknowledged the splintering of singularities (albeit via a now semi-unaware TransTech Vector Prime), should we merge all the Thirteen's mainstream multiverse and Aligned pages together? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 14:59, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:Having waited to see how it all shook out, yes, I still stand by [[Talk:Thirteen#Revisiting_yet_again|the original suggestion I made a couple of months ago]], which is to merge the individual incarnations of the Thirteen's pages into singular ones (except for Alpha Trion and Aligned Optimus Prime), treating them more as concepts that will probably require "conceptual history" sections. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely|talk]]) 15:04, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::What about the SG versions of Unicron and Primus? We typically give new pages to SG versions of characters, as per countless previous discussions on separating out the SG versions of other characters from their positive polarity counterparts. Except, since it's Primus and Unicron we're talking about here, them being them and their SG versions being SG versions of them makes this a little fuzzy. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 15:20, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::I completely disagree with Chris's proposal and would rather treat them like every other character, but my opinion doesn't mean much, so. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 15:40, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::I'm kind of torn on this. On one hand, splitting by continuity family will lead to pointless micro-articles like "Vector Prime (TransTech)", and don't even know how one would begin to deal with Fun Pub Nexus Prime. On the other, Aligned Megatronus really has very little to do with Dreamwave Fallen and ROTF Fallen and having them all on one page would seem antithetical to the goal of accessibility. [[User:Jalaguy|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy|talk]]) 16:33, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I, too, am torn. I like keeping the Aligned stuff separate. Maybe just go case-by-case? Like, the Movie Fallen could probably be split from the Dreamwave guy, but I'm not sure Vector Prime (TransTech) is a thing that needs to exist. Do any other members of the Thirteen have a substantial amount of fiction to them?--[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 16:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::Maybe use suites? And like, point out that they were all at one point considered to be incarnations of The Same Dude. I wouldn't be opposed to merging most of the Aligned Thirteen, though. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 18:48, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::Using suites does sound like a good idea, particularly for the SG versions of Primus and Unicron. It keeps them together with the main versions allowing them to be separated onto their own pages. I like it. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 19:26, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::Me too. Seems like a good compromise for the cases where we do decide to split. I still think we should avoid articles that are too short. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:29, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:::::::::Also if we utilize a suite, then we can keep main version(s) of guys like [[Primus]] or [[Unicron]] at their own namespace. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 19:55, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::::::::::Suite's suit. We should do that. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Summary of the multiversal singularities:
*[[Unicron]] (G1, UT, Movie, Animated, Aligned, Kre-O, SG) — I think UT, Aligned, and SG can support their own pages; the others are minor versions based on G1.
*[[Primus]] (G1, UT, SG, Movie, GoBots, Aligned) — Only UT and SG really stand out.
*Prima ([[Prima (G1)|G1, Movie]], [[Prima (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Vector Prime ([[Vector Prime (Cybertron)|UT, Movie, TransTech]], [[Vector Prime (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Alpha Trion ([[Alpha Trion (G1)|G1]], [[Alpha Trion (RID)|RID]], [[Alpha Trion (Energon)|UT]], [[Alpha Trion (SG)|SG]], [[Alpha Trion (Animated)|Animated]], [[Alpha Trion (ROTF)|Movie]], [[Alpha Trion (WFC)|Aligned]], [[Alpha Trion (Kre-O)|Kre-O]])
*Solus Prime ([[Solus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Solus Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Alchemist Prime ([[Alchemist Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Alchemist Prime (G1)|G1]])
*Nexus Prime ([[Nexus Prime (Classics)|G1?]], [[Nexus Prime (Prime)|Aligned]])
*Onyx Prime ([[Onyx Prime (Prime)|Aligned]], [[Onyx Prime (G1)|G1]])
*[[Amalgamous Prime]] (Aligned, G1 [sorta])
*Liege Maximo ([[Liege Maximo (G2)|G1, TransTech]], [[Liege Maximo (WFC)|Aligned]])
*Megatronus/The Fallen ([[The Fallen|G1, Movie]], [[Megatronus (WFC)|Aligned]]) — Movie could really, really stand to be split out.
*Optimus Prime ([[Optimus Prime (WFC)|lol]]) — lol
My feelings if we're going the "we don't want small pages" route. [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 20:42, 2 November 2015 (EST)
:You know, another thought just crossed my mind. Why didn't we think of using a suite for the many versions of Sideways too, instead of turning his disambig page into his main page? --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 22:00, 2 November 2015 (EST)
::Because then we'd have to put the explanation of his whole deal on all the pages. I think that putting a suite on his pages isn't a bad idea, but I do like the set-up we have now. --[[User:Riptide|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide|talk]]) 07:12, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:Agree on splitting out Movie from the rest of the Fallen's page; SG and Aligned Unicron's are different enough, and with enough fiction in the latter's case, to get a-splitting. --[[User:Charles RB|Charles RB]] ([[User talk:Charles RB|talk]]) 20:43, 3 November 2015 (EST)
:::Movie Fallen should definitely split.--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 14:12, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:I don't really think that UT Primus is that different from G1 Primus, or at least from the G1 Primuses of fiction that was contemporary of the time (Dreamwave, late 3H, early Fun Pub, etc.). Granted, back then was when the singularity concept was in full swing so UT Primus was viewed as the same dude as G1 Primus anyway, but I don't see anything in particular that would distinct UT Primus from 2002-2006 G1 Primus that much to separate him out. After all, the heavily Marvel G1-influenced Primus/Unicron/Thirteen backstory of that era of was attributed to both the G1 and UT versions of Primus via things like 2004's The Ultimate Book (G1 Primus), the Armada Fleer trading cards (UT Primus), and even Takara's "World of the Transformers" website that [[Talk:World of Transformers/Section5 src#SOURSE-2 － THE ONE & 13PROTTYPES －|told the backstory]] with [[:File:Original13.jpg|imagery of Armada Unicron, Cybertron Primus, and Cybertron Vector Prime (and War Within's '''''G1''''' The Fallen) among the Thirteen]]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 02:46, 6 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of Year pages ==

So I noticed the pages for [[2007]] and [[2012]] are formatted VERY differently from any other Years' pages, being built out of subpages. As a result, the parent page ends up taking on any categories its subpages are tagged with even if they're not really applicable to the larger page (Toys, Media, Games, etc.), plus it creates an inconsistency with the rest of the Year articles. (Plus I'm not so sure this subdivision really makes the editing or upkeep process any easier). Should we move all the information to a single page like the other Year articles, or perhaps change the rest to match these two? -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 14:08, 4 November 2015 (EST)
:At one point we had all the year pages with separate subpages at one point, and then they got merged and then some of the pages got separated again. I'm not sure that there's any benefit to having subpages for each section. It just means the smaller pages come up pointlessly when you do a search or sometimes when you hit the random page link. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 14:41, 4 November 2015 (EST)
::Understood. I've gone in and moved all the 2007 and 2012 content (and [[2006]], which I guess I missed the first time) back to their main pages, and tagged the subpages with speedy deletion. If someone could take care of those, it'd be much appreciated. -- [[User:Cyberlink420|Cyberlink420]] ([[User talk:Cyberlink420|talk]]) 16:28, 4 November 2015 (EST)

== Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? ==

She is an official retcon, no different than a bunch of other Botcon retcon characters (eg. Ion Storm), or 'Acid Storm' who was retconned by another official means.

Was her exclusion from the Character Roster done on purpose, or simply forgotten and needs updating?

Update: I've made a change to include Glyph on the 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4' Character Roster...but I do not have the information as to when she appeared, in relation to all the other characters. All the characters have a number beside them to indicate the numerical order they appeared in. So, does anyone know Glyph's number?

== Page names for planets ==

Some planets in ''Transformers'' with numbers in their names are variably parsed with the number in regular Hindu-Arabic numerals, Roman numerals, or in words. (i.e. [[Hydrus Four]]) When I search on the wiki, I generally think of Roman numerals by default, especially since ''Transformers'' is science fiction. Does anyone else think that we should put planets' pages in Roman numerals as long as such parsing is not overshadowed by different parsing? [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 20:03, 20 November 2015 (EST)
: So, if I am reading your proposal correctly, you suggest that if there are two canonical parsing of the name of a planet, and one uses Roman numerals, that one should have primacy? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 22:16, 20 November 2015 (EST)
:: Correct. That is, as long as a different parsing is not more prominent. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::I guess I don't see what that gets us. Mind you, I don't see any harm either, I'm just not sold. What are we doing now? Most prominent? First official text parsing? --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 18:37, 22 November 2015 (EST)
::::I thought it would help navigability. Not sure what we're doing now, but I think it's first official text parsing. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 18:53, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:::::I guess you can put me down as a tentative yes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 19:14, 22 November 2015 (EST)
:I think that seems unnecessary so long as there's a redirect in place, which there should be if the planet has been named with Roman numerals in fiction. --[[User:Abates|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates|talk]]) 20:24, 22 November 2015 (EST)

== Italics in headers for toy sections ==

I've noticed that most pages' toy sections don't italicize the toyline section name, but some do. Examples: in my memory, [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys]] and [[Optimus Prime (WFC)/toys]] have never italicized their toyline name headers but the [[Brawn (G1)]] page currently does. Do we have a rule on this? If we do I haven't been able to find it. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 17:51, 22 November 2015 (EST)

Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4

2015-11-23T02:52:17Z

Zackmak: /* Featured characters */

{{episode
|series=G1toon
|ep=69
|series2=2010
|ep2=4
|prev2=Five Faces of Darkness, Part 3
|next2=Five Faces of Darkness, Part 5
|image=FFOD4 Rodimus journey.JPG
|caption=What the hell did [[Beachcomber (G1)|Beachcomber]] give me?
|title="Five Faces of Darkness, Part 4"
|production code=#700-89
|production company=[[Sunbow Productions]]
|animation studio=[[AKOM]]
|airdate=[[September 18]], 1986
|written by=[[Flint Dille]]
|continuity=[[Generation 1 cartoon continuity]]
}}
'''Seeking answers about their mysterious new foes, Rodimus Prime takes a journey through the Matrix to learn the truth about the Quintessons... and the origins of the Transformers.'''

==Synopsis==
[[File:FFOD4 Autobots no hit.JPG|left|upright=1.1|thumb|It's like they're being shot at by Decepticon Targetmasters.]]

On [[Goo 8739B|Goo]], the [[Decepticon]]s open fire on the [[Autobot]]s (and miss spectacularly). [[Deliberata|Judge Deliberata]] cheers them on, until Grimlock slams him into the goo. As they get closer, Galvatron arrives, intending to punish the Decepticons for their "disloyalty". Upon seeing (and being shot by) their long-lost leader, the Decepticons repledge their loyalty to Galvatron and tell him that they were bribed into following the [[Quintesson]]s for [[energon]]. Galvatron is not happy and decides to punish the Quintessons for their usurpation.

On Goo, the Autobots find the control center, and Rodimus Prime and Ultra Magnus find out that the planet is a garbage collection system for the [[Junkion (species)|Junkions]]. Contacting Wreck-Gar, they request assistance after managing to "talk [[Television|Teevee]]".

On [[Io]], Blurr and Wheelie are under attack by the [[lightpole]]s, who are ferociously flapping their wings in the two Autobots' faces. Wheelie is overtaken, but tells Blurr to leave him and take Metroplex's [[transformation cog]]. Instead of leaving his comrade to die, Blurr heads right into the thick of the swarm. [[Marissa Faireborn]] arrives and manages to drive off the lightpoles, but a number of them transform into missiles and destroy her ship. The three begin a search through the ship's wreckage, hoping that the communications are still working.

[[File:FFOD4 Autobots lipoles.JPG|upright=1.1|thumb|"I'm Batman." "No, I'm Batman." "Hey, I'm Batman!" "I'm Man-bat."]]

Galvatron introduces himself by firing on the Quintesson ship. Realizing that Galvatron must be handled differently, the Quintessons offer an alliance with the Decepticons against the Autobots, but Galvatron says he never asked for their help. They offer Galvatron the [[Decepticon Matrix|Decepticon Matrix of Leadership]], but Galvatron simply demands it in exchange for letting them live. The Quintessons say that their lives are not enough, and that the Autobots must be destroyed.

Galvatron attacks the Autobots, but the Junkions arrive and melt the goo out from under the Autobots, sucking them right through the planet. Judge Deliberata winds up getting ejected in the process. Galvatron destroys Goo, but by the time he's done, the Junkions and Autobots have fled.

Heading back to the ship, Galvatron rants at the Quintessons, who counter that they would be powerful allies. Galvatron demands to know why the Quintessons haven't destroyed the Autobots themselves. They explain that the Autobots have been made unpredictable by their interactions with the [[human]]s. Sneering at the Quintessons' fear of the flesh creatures, Galvatron agrees to an alliance. The Decepticons cry "Hail Galvatron!" to affirm their support of their leader, and even the Quintessons give out a shout.

[[File:RodimusBack.jpg|left|upright=1.1|thumb|No thanks, I can hold down this pile by myself.]]

On [[Junkion (planet)|the Planet of Junk]], Wreck-Gar restores Springer to life. However, Rodimus is not as cheered up as expected. He has questions about the Quintessons—about their hostility towards the Autobots, how they know so much about them, and about their intentions. Rodimus has become convinced that the answers behind the Quintessons lie in the [[Matrix of Leadership|Matrix]], but he still doesn't know how to consult the wisdom of the ages. Springer makes a sarcastic suggestion, saying that he should just come close to death again. Although Arcee says not to do that, Springer assures her that Rodimus is not as stupid as he looks. Wandering off, the [[Supreme Commander|Autobot commander]] short-circuits himself and falls unconscious.

[[File:Ancientrobot ffod.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Luke, you must go to the Dagobah system.]]

Rodimus enters the Matrix, where he is greeted by the spirits of the [[Ancient Autobots]], who show him the face of the creators of the Transformers...the Quintessons! Eons ago, the Quintessons used [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] as a factory to build two lines of robots: consumer goods and military hardware, who evolved into the Autobots and the Decepticons, respectively. Millennia of torturous abuse led the Autobots to rebel and drive the Quintessons off Cybertron. Afterwards, the Cybertronians warred with each other for control, which was ended when the Autobots developed the art of [[transformation]]. A [[Golden Age]] followed, which was ended when the Decepticons mastered transformation and created a new leader: [[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]]. He killed the [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|Matrix-bearer]], who passed the Matrix to [[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]], one of the oldest among them. However, Alpha Trion did not take the Matrix for himself, but gave it another who would challenge Megatron. This was [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]], who became the [[Prime (rank)|Autobot leader]] for the [[Great War (G1)|Third Cybertronian War]], which has raged for nine million years and continues to rage even now.

Rodimus reactivates to find Springer and Arcee seriously freaked out. Dismissing their concerns, he tells them that they need to get to Cybertron as soon as possible.

[[File:FFOD4 Trypticon lives.JPG|left|upright=1.1|thumb|When a guy has cannons for a tongue, it's time to panic.]]

Near Cybertron, Galvatron and the Quintessons plot their strategy. They will attack on two fronts: [[Autobot City (G1)|Autobot City]] and Cybertron. On [[Earth]], the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]] are making changes to a human city. At dawn, they activate a transformation sequence, and the city begins to change. As the humans flee, the dust settles to the ground. In the place of the city now stands...Trypticon!

On Cybertron, an [[Earth Defense Command]] ship requests emergency landing clearance. Perceptor warns that it might be a trick, but Kup refuses to allow a ship full of innocents to perish, giving them clearance to land. But the ship instead crashes into Cybertron's central power facility, shutting down the planet's defenses. Storming from the Quintesson ships, Galvatron leads the Decepticons in an attack. Aboard the vessels, the Quintessons are pleased, for soon the Autobots will be destroyed, and then they will deal with the Decepticons.

[[Five Faces of Darkness, Part 5|To be concluded...]]

{{-}}

==Featured characters==
(Characters in ''italic text'' appear only in the episode's Matrix-guided history flashbacks.)<br>
{{featuredcharacters
|c1=
* [[Ultra Magnus (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Ultra Magnus]] (5)
* [[Hot Rod (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Rodimus Prime]] (6)
* [[Arcee (G1)|Arcee]] (7)
* [[Grimlock (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Grimlock]] (8)
* [[Kup (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Kup]] (10)
* [[Slag (G1)|Slag]] (11)
* [[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)|Skydive]] (18)
* [[Wreck-Gar (G1)|Wreck-Gar]] (19)
* [[Blaster (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Blaster]] (21)
* [[Blurr (G1)|Blurr]] (22)
* [[Wheelie (G1)|Wheelie]] (23)
* [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] (25)
* [[Hood Transformer]] (26)
* [[Pole vault Transformer]] (27)
* [[Springer (G1)|Springer]] (30)
* ''[[Primon|Ancient Robot]]'' (31)
* ''[[Prima (G1)|Powerful Robot]]'' (32)
* ''[[Sentinel Prime (G1)|U-Haul Robot]]'' (33)
* ''[[Prime Nova|Brooding Robot]]'' (34)
* ''[[Guardian Prime|Pre-Transformer]]'' (36)
* ''[[Zeta Prime (G1)|New Narrator]]'' (38)
* ''[[Glyph]]''
* ''[[Alpha Trion (G1)|Alpha Trion]]'' (48)
* [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] (49)
* [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]] (52)
* [[Cosmos (G1)|Cosmos]] (53)

|c2=
* [[Dead End (G1)|Dead End]] (1)
* [[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] (2)
* [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]] (3)
* [[Ramjet (G1)|Ramjet]] (12)
* [[Galvatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Galvatron]] (13)
* [[Scourge (G1)|Scourge]] (14)
* [[Cyclonus (G1)|Cyclonus]] (15)
* [[Sweep]]s (16)
* [[Motormaster (G1)|Motormaster]] (17)
* [[Octane (G1)|Octane]] (28)
* [[Soundwave (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Soundwave]] (29)
* ''[[Trannis|Early Decepticon leader]]'' (35)
* ''[[ASD-324-ddd-3e3c1 model Decepticon|Ancient Decepticons]]'' (37)
* [[Bonecrusher (G1)|Bonecrusher]] (39)
* [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] (40)
* [[Mixmaster (G1)|Mixmaster]] (41)
* [[Scrapper (G1)|Scrapper]] (42)
* [[Hook (G1)|Hook]] (43)
* [[Scavenger (G1)|Scavenger]] (44)
* ''[[Hauler]]?'' (45)
* ''[[Gravedigger (G1)|Gravedigger]]?'' (46)
* ''[[Megatron (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Megatron]]'' (47)
* [[Vortex (G1)|Vortex]] (50)
* [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]] (51)

|c3=
* [[Spike Witwicky (G1)|Spike Witwicky]] (4)
* [[Marissa Faireborn]] (20)

|c4=
* [[Deliberata]] (9)
* Various [[Quintesson]]s (24)
}}

==Quotes==
"Last big party of the summer, folks! Let's go out with a bang!"<br>
"Just once, couldn't your attitude reflect the gravity of the situation?!"<br>
"Not if I can help it!"
:—'''Rodimus Prime''' and '''Ultra Magnus''' have rather different leadership styles.

"Yes! Yes! Even if it means my life is forfeit, destroy them! Destroy th—ooh!"<br>
''[Tail smack]''<br>
"Me Grimlock say shut your faces!"
:—'''Judge Deliberata''' annoys '''Grimlock'''.

'''Galvatron''': Now, Decepticons, learn the price of your disloyalty! Attack!<br>
'''Cyclonus''': Attack whom?<br>
''[Galvatron shoots Cyclonus]''<br>
'''Galvatron''': EVERYONE!
:—Galvatron isn't so good with specifics.

'''Wreck-Gar''': Bulletin: You are in danger of being canceled or losing your time slot.<br>
'''Ultra Magnus''': What's he talking about?<br>
'''Rodimus Prime''': We're gonna get killed.
:—Rodimus shows the value of knowing a second language.

"He ran right back into the danger! My digital watch is smarter than that!"
:—'''Marissa Faireborn''' isn't impressed with Blurr's tactics.

[[File:Ffod4 rodimus in matrix.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
"Through all these centuries, they have waited for the proper moment to strike, to reclaim the planet that we Transformers took from them."<br>
"And now they're going for the gusto, right?"
:—'''Optimus Prime''' is an iconic figure. '''Rodimus Prime''' is the one you'd have a beer with.

"Are you crazy?! Why'd you short-circuit yourself?! Wake up, you - you ''moron''!"<br>
"It was the only way... into the Matrix."<br>
"I was wrong. He ''is'' as dumb as he looks."<br>
:—'''Springer''' has a love-hate thing goin' on with '''Rodimus Prime'''

==Season 5==
{{note|When this episode was rebroadcast in [[The Transformers (cartoon)#Season 5|the fifth season]] of ''The Transformers'', it contained new bookending segments with original story material.}}

[[File:SadTommy.jpg|thumb|upright=1.4|right]]

[[Tommy Kennedy (G1)|Tommy]] and [[Powermaster]] [[Optimus Prime (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Optimus Prime]] meet in the barren wasteland and Tommy seems troubled. He asks Prime if he's remembering the story correctly. Prime thinks Tommy's calling him a liar, but Tommy elaborates, saying that the odds are so stacked against the Autobots that there's no way they could've come out on top. Prime tells him that he hasn't exaggerated or misremembered a thing; times really ''were'' that bad...

{{bigquote|And Springer... was he ''really'' ground up into little pieces?}}
{{bigquote|Yes, Tommy.}}

After hearing the tale, Tommy is more disturbed than ever; he can't fathom how the Autobots will make it out alive. Optimus tells him that things will look up, as [[Sky Lynx (G1)|Sky Lynx]] enters the fray. Unfortunately, the Autobots on Earth still have to deal with [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]], so it doesn't look ''that'' hopeful after all. Prime tells Tommy not to lose all hope, as the Autobots still have an ace up their sleeves... which he'll learn next time, when Optimus returns to transform his day into an adventure.

{{--}}

==Notes==
===Animation or technical glitches===
* [[Victor Caroli]]'s opening recap narration says that Quintessa "was detonated by the deadly Quintesson". Maybe a single Quint really did push the button all by himself, but the use of the singular is a bit odd.
* Like all AKOM episodes, this one features some incorrect color models:
** The characters introduced in the Movie almost all have colored mouth interiors: Blurr and Magnus's mouths are blue, Galvatron and Cyclonus's are purple, Wreck-Gar's is red, Springer's is (very dark) green, and Kup's is slate blue.
** Rodimus's shoulders are red instead of white; his gun is red instead of black.
** Cyclonus's light gray bits (face, neck, upper legs) are colored pinkish-lavender.
[[File:FFOD4 mass mistakes.JPG|upright=1.1|thumb|"Dead End, are we the only ones here NOT colored wrong?"<br>"Who cares? We're doomed either way."]]
[[File:Generic palette swap.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
*The [[generic]] Decepticon army:
** The first two shots, of the Decepticons pouring out of the Quintesson ship and firing at the Autobots, are loaded with too many screwups to count, as a mixture of made-up characters and off-model characters with the wrong color scheme pads out the background. An off-model Blitzwing colored like Air Raid is just one example.
** A subsequent shot gives us a better look at the crowd-filler Decepticons. In addition to Air Raid/Blitzwing, we have Ramjet missing most of his wings, with a black head, and one of his lasers on backwards. Every other character in the shot is entirely made up, though two of them appear to be using Octane's wing design.
** In the next shot, as [[Dead End (G1)|Dead End]] and [[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]] are discussing how easy it is to destroy the Autobots, [[Motormaster (G1)|Motormaster]] is colored like Kup, [[Octane (G1)|Octane]] is colored like Grimlock, and an off-model [[Snarl (G1)|Snarl]] shows up colored like Rodimus Prime. Also there is an early version of [[Breakdown (G1)|Breakdown]]'s [[character model]] with Cyclonus' color scheme right behind Kup-colored Motormaster. What's more, standing near the miscoloured Snarl is a Decepticon coloured like Wheelie. Yikes.
** As the wimpy-sounding Decepticons hail Galvatron, two [[Shockwave (G1)|Shockwaves]] are shown colored like [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], alongside a [[Seeker (body-type)|Seeker]] colored like [[Onslaught (G1)|Onslaught]].
** More Decepticon generics and off-models after Galvatron arrives. A shot of the tail end of the mob includes Soundwave, Scavenger, Swindle and Onslaught all in white, a generic with Octane's wings, a generic with what looks like Rodimus's spoiler, and several totally made-up generic guys.
** When Motormaster is blasted by Galvatron, Onslaught is in the background, with Six Gun's white-and-red color scheme.
** The horde of miscolored generic Decepticons is recycled for the attack on Cybertron.
* In the wide shot of the Autobots, Kup, Magnus, Arcee and Rodimus are in front. Grimlock and Deliberata are in back, and behind them are two guys that don't look like any of the Aerialbots (who remain AWOL throughout the sequence.)
* Just before Magnus starts to chastise Rodimus, Rodimus's torso is orange instead of red, and his waistline has climbed half way up his stomach, kinda like an old man being swallowed by his trousers.
* In the closeup shot of Rodimus and Magnus, yellow lasers are flying past them, despite the Decepticon lasers being pink in all the other scenes.
* How long do the Autobots intend to stand there without shooting back at the Decepticons? Why are they just strolling along without defending themselves?
* When Judge Deliberata is celebrating the impending destruction of the Autobots, [[Slag (G1)|Slag]] is shown with them, despite not being part of the group that landed on Goo.
* Coloring errors:
** Galvatron's lower helmet rim is gray instead of purple as he first appears. Man, AKOM sure does that a lot.
** Rodimus's spoiler ridge is so often colored yellow instead of orange that it's almost more noteworthy when they get it ''right''.
** Galvatron is colored with a gray "goatee" after he blasts the Decepticon ship, and again as he climbs aboard. As he scoffs at the Quintessons, the whole area around his mouth is gray; the gray disappears as he turns and fires. The goatee returns as he rants at the Quintessons after destroying Goo. Then the beard returns as well.
** As Galvatron accepts the Quintessons as allies, his left hand goes from purple to gray and back.
** When Rodimus deactivates himself, the Matrix is all-gray rather than silver and gold.[[File:FFODHaul.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Not the A-list animation team. Not the B-list either. In fact they'd run out of letters by this point.]]
** When the Decepticons assemble Trypticon, [[Vortex (G1)|Vortex]] is colored like Octane and [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] is colored like the [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|U-Haul Robot]].
** When the Constructicons celebrate Trypticon's awakening, they're drawn as generics and colored like the core Movie Autobots: Magnus, Kup, Wheelie, and Arcee's color schemes are all visible.
** As Kup, Perceptor and Cosmos watch the incoming ship, Perceptor is colored like Grimlock, and Cosmos's arms are on backwards.
** The Aerialbots who fly to intercept the ship are all colored the same light gray and medium blue. Only Silverbolt and Skydive are on-model.
* Galvatron ''literally'' jogging through space right after the above shot.
* Motormaster has the wrong voice as he reacts to Galvatron's return. He has the right voice in his next line ("Spare me and I'm yours to command!")
* When Swindle and Motormaster fly up to pledge their allegiance to Galvatron, the Autobot [[Skydive (G1 Aerialbot)|Skydive]] is with them for two different consecutive shots.
* During his "Sloppiness. Disorganization." line, Magnus has much smaller eyes than usual.
* After the Decepticons break off their assault, Rodimus and Magnus once again just walk right out of the inescapable goo.
* As Marissa's ship enters the Jovian system, it passes over what looks like a post-Movie Cybertron!
* Improbable viewpoints:
** Marissa's screen shows Blurr and Wheelie from a surface point of view, even though she's still high above the moon's surface. She reacts to this full-screen image of the two by saying "I think I've spotted them", as if there were some doubt.
* As Blurr charges back into the lightpole swarm, most of the creatures aren't animated, despite being in the air.
* No wing-flapping in the shot of the lightpoles surrounding Wheelie, either. They just magically bob up and down in the air.
* How does Marissa's [[jet pack]] support her in mid-air when she's upside-down?
* The jetpack's flames change from non-existent, to blue, to orange when Marissa lands.
* Marissa loses her Mid-Atlantic accent for one line, when she says "Help me find out if the radio's still working!"
* "Tell me? What?" The Quintesson in this shot is missing his energy beam.
* The Quintessons are pretty clearly mechanical, yet one of them makes a squishy noise when Galvatron slams him into the ship's deck, and again when Galatron smacks Deliberata out of his way.
* Deliberata is missing his energy beam as Kup takes aim at Galvatron.
* As Kup and company open fire on Galvatron, Bonecrusher is firing with them! In the background are two pipe-cleaner-thin generics.
* Galvatron rises back into the frame after destroying Goo, as if he just returned to [[robot mode]], but there's no transformation noise.
* We see seven Sweeps aboard the Quintesson ship, the most we've seen so far in the whole mini-series. Some previous shots have indicated that there are as few as three.
* Seriously. No combination of known Decepticon voices would result in that lame-o chorus of "Hail Galvatron."
* And while they hail him, Galvatron's Decepticon logo is just a red square.
* On Junkion, Arcee continues to be without the bridgeline of her nose.
* When Arcee and the repaired Springer speak with Rodimus, the latter is drawn in his [[Hot Rod (G1)/Generation 1 cartoon continuity|Hot Rod]] form.
* The sprawled, unconscious Rodimus changes positions between the end of Act 2 and the opening of Act 3; specifically, his arms move from eagle-spread to down by his sides.
* The [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|U-Haul Robot]]'s barbed mace phases through the foot of the [[Prima (G1)|Powerful Robot]] after it hits the ground.
* Vehicles based on Hook and Scavenger are used as generic construction vehicles during a shot showing the Transformers' freedom from the Quintessons (prior to inventing transformation). Or maybe all construction vehicles are green and purple on Cybertron.
* The "Matrix" Alpha Trion holds looks like a giant gold football rather than the sphere with handles; it was shown correctly earlier in the flashback.
* When he wakes up, Rodimus says that "''Ctyber''tron's in deadly danger."
* As Rodimus gets up and walks away, Arcee's Autobot symbol is missing (with only the outline of a square in its place).
* Cosmos's voice lacks its usual reverberated echo.
* Really makes you wonder how [[AKOM]] actually gets work, doesn't it?

===Continuity errors===
[[File:Lipoloe missiles from Five Faces of Darkness.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1]]
* Dead End and Blast Off's conversation is screwed up more ways than one:
** "We owe this grand opportunity entirely to our new allies" is about as obvious a statement as one could make, yet Blast Off has to ask for an explanation.
** The explanation seems to come from Swindle, but he's not in the shot.
** The pointless explanation ("He means that what opportunities—") is suddenly truncated by Galvatron's arrival. Maybe he sensed the scene was going nowhere.
* The lightpoles have totally changed size since the last episode. Instead of a deep-throated growl, they now give off high-pitched squeaks. They aren't glowing anymore, either.
* The animation does absolutely nothing to tell us what's so bad about being swarmed by lightpoles. From what we see in this episode, it would seem to be little more than a mild annoyance.
* Why doesn't Wheelie transform and drive to escape the lightpoles?
* The animators and writers alike seem to have forgotten that Blurr's defining physical trait is that he's ''fast''. In this episode, he runs like a grandmother.
* Marissa's space suit has no visor or anything covering her face.
* Speaking of which, how can these creatures fly by flapping their wings when Io has only the thinnest of atmospheres?
* Marissa's demand that the lightpoles "eat null rays" doesn't make much sense, as an actual [[null-ray]] affects electronic circuits. Marissa's gun instead causes the lightpoles to violently explode.
* On the other hand, her assertion that they are "bags of protoplasm" doesn't make much since either, since they can ''transform'' (complete with the transforming noise) into ''rocket-propelled missiles''.
* There appears to be some missing lines in the [[Primon|Ancient Robot]]'s monologue: "Now, the machines could manufacture themselves. And before long, they grew too lazy and greedy even for that. There were simpler ways to wring performance out of their slaves." The "they" in the second sentence clearly refers to the Quintessons, not the machines.
* How does one recycle a robot by dumping it into a molten vat?
* Where did those dancing robots get the cloth sheet things they're waving around?
* The ancient Autobot that gets knocked off of the motorcycle is a recycled character model; he was last seen standing alongside Wreck-Gar on the Junkion ship, just a few scenes ago!
[[File:Megatronffod.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Ve must have ze brain on ze table! Chop chop!]]
* One of the most famous continuity gaffs of the entire series comes as the Matrix journey wraps up. A scene showing Megatron's creation millions of years ago is illustrated with him surrounded by Constructicons. It's problematic because, according to "[[The Secret of Omega Supreme (episode)|The Secret of Omega Supreme]]", the Constructicons weren't actually ''evil'' until ''Megatron himself'' reprogrammed them to be Decepticons. And according to a one-off line in "[[Heavy Metal War]]", Megatron and the other Decepticons built the Constructicons on Earth in 1984!
* On top of that, there's eight Constructions! None of them are really on-model; three appear to be entirely made up. Many years later, Japanese continuity would retroactively assign the identities of [[Hauler]] and [[Gravedigger (G1)|Gravedigger]] to the two extra members of the group, while [[Fun Publications]]' "[[Transformers: Wings Universe|Wings Universe]]" would present all eight as being new, unnamed characters who belonged to the same pre-Decepticon faction as the main six.
[[File:Alphatrionagesbackwards.jpg|thumb|upright=0.85]]
* Somebody forgot that we'd already seen an 11-million-years-younger Alpha Trion, back in "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]"... and he looked visibly different than the elderly Trion of 1985! He is shown in his "elderly" design when he receives the matrix from the dying Autobot leader; chronologically, the events of "[[War Dawn (episode)|War Dawn]]" happen after this, but in that episode he's portrayed with a much younger look.
* The Constructicons build (or rebuild, depending on whether you're watching ''[[Fight! Super Robot Lifeform Transformers 2010 (franchise)|2010]]'') [[Trypticon (G1)|Trypticon]] out of a human city overnight. And no one notices.
* The idea of rebuilding a human city into a Transformer only makes any sense if the city was made ''entirely of metal''.
* Cybertron appears to have gotten a remodel since we saw it in the Movie. Who had time to patch up all those holes?

===Continuity notes===
[[File:Pretransformer ffod.jpg|thumb|upright=1.1|Some looks never go out of style!]]
* This episode's act-long history lesson fills us in on the history of the Transformers in general and the Great Wars in particular. It jibes pretty well with the (extremely vague) history we saw in "[[Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2]]".
* It also gives us good, long looks at lots of early Transformers and Autobot leaders. Apart from Optimus Prime and Alpha Trion, these ancient (pre-)Autobots were only given descriptive names in the episode's the shooting script. More than 20 years later, ''[[Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II|The Allspark Almanac II]]'' would assign them identities derived from the many past Primes mentioned in various different continuities. Those descriptors and their ''Almanac''-assigned names are:
** [[Primon|Ancient Robot]] (Primon)
** [[Prima (G1)|Powerful Robot]] (Prima)
** [[Prime Nova|Brooding Robot]] (Prime Nova)
** [[Guardian Prime|Pre-Transformer]] (Guardian Prime)
** [[Zeta Prime (G1)|New Narrator]] (Zeta Prime)
** [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|U-Haul Robot]] (Sentinel Prime)
* It also portrays the origin of Megatron, though all we really learn is that he was created after the Decepticons had figured out how to transform.
* Trypticon is seemingly brought to life without the use of [[Vector Sigma]], which we were [[The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1|previously assured]] is the only way to grant life and/or sentience and/or "cybernetic personalities" to new Transformers. Of course, it's not as if he is unique in that respect: the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] were also made without the use of the computer, and Trypticon wound up being as dim as they are. The Technobots would likewise be created without Vector Sigma.
* This episode features the second and final instance of Rodimus referring to Springer with the nickname "Springo".

===Real-world references===
* ''[[Star Wars (franchise)|Star Wars]]'' sound effects:
** The [[Prima (G1)|Powerful Robot]] attacks the [[Sentinel Prime (G1)|U-Haul Robot]] with the sound of [[Obi-Wan Kenobi|Ben Kenobi]] and [[Darth Vader]]'s [[lightsaber]]s clashing aboard the [[Death Star]], and [[Luke Skywalker]]'s lightsaber deflecting seeker bolts aboard the ''[[Millennium Falcon]]''.
** The Powerful Robot launches against his Quintesson overseers with the same Death Star firing/Alderaan exploding sound effect that Galvatron used in Part 2.
* Wreck-Gar's lines are mostly based on generic sales pitches ("Batteries not included", "for a limited time, your money back," "Doors closing at midnight!" hilariously timed to coincide with Galvatron confronting a closing donut hole of goo). A few lines have more specific origins, though:
** "Glad you used the dial, wish everybody would." parodies the "Aren't you glad you used Dial?" soap ad campaign.
** "Why'd you come on down to Goo?" is based on the famous "Come on down, you're the next contestant on..." catch phrase of ''The Price is Right''.
** "Wreck-Gar will put you in good hands" references the "You're in good hands with Allstate" insurance ad campaign.
** "You'll have Springer back faster than Snap Crackle Pop", the mascots of Rice Krispies cereal.
** "I believe in me" would reoccur as a Junkion mantra in "[[The Big Broadcast of 2006 (episode)|The Big Broadcast of 2006]]".
* Galvatron gives the thumbs-down as he declares war on the Junkions, a gesture used by Roman gladatorial audiences to decide a defeated gladiator's fate.

===Trivia===
* The original video cassette release of this episode featured some odd audio edits to the final scene: all of Cosmos's lines were missing, as were the fake pilot's claim that their "engines have just gone critical", and the Quintesson's declaration that their decoy worked and that Cybertron is helpless. The [[Rhino Entertainment|Kid Rhino]] DVD of this episode restores all the missing lines, but they are all once again missing on the subsequent [[Shout! Factory]] release.

===Foreign localization===

'''German'''
:*''Title:'' "'''Die fünf Gesichter der Finsternis, Teil 4'''" ("The five Faces of Darkness, Part 4")
:*''Original airdate:'' ?

'''Japanese'''
:*''Title:'' マトリクスの秘密 (''Matrix no Himitsu'', "The Secrets of the Matrix")
:*''Original airdate:'' [[December 5]], [[1986]]

==Home video releases==
{{homevidnote}}
;VHS
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 1990 — ''The Transformers'' — Five Faces of Darkness ([[Family Home Entertainment]])
;[[Wikipedia:LaserDisc|LaserDisc]]
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 1990 — ''The Transformers'' — Five Faces of Darkness (Family Home Entertainment)<br>
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 1999 — ''The Transformers: 2010'' ([[Geneon Universal Entertainment|Pioneer LDC]]) — Japanese audio only.
;DVD
[[File:Flag of Japan.png|20px|Japan]] 2001 — ''The Transformers: 2010'' — DVD Box (Pioneer LDC) — Japanese audio only.<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2002 — ''Transformers'' — Five Faces of Darkness: Parts 1-5 ([[Maverick Entertainment|Sony Wonder]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2003 — ''The Original Transformers'' — Season 3 Part 1 ([[The Original Transformers|Rhino Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2003 — ''The Original Transformers'' — Season 3 Part 1: Vol. 1 (Rhino Entertainment)<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2004 — ''Transformers'' — Season 3 and Season 4 ([[Metrodome]])<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2004 — ''Transformers'' — Collection 4: Series 3.1 ([[Madman Entertainment]])<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2006 — ''Transformers'' — The Complete Generation One Collection (Metrodome)<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2007 — ''The Transformers'' — Complete Collection (Madman Entertainment)<br>
[[File:Flag of UK.png|20px|United Kingdom]] 2009 — ''Transformers'' — Season's Three & Four {{sic}} (Metrodome)<br>
[[File:Flag of Australia.png|20px|Australia]] 2009 — ''The Transformers'' — Complete Collection: Decepticon Edition (Madman Entertainment)<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2009 — ''The Transformers'' — The Complete Series: 25th Anniversary "Matrix of Leadership" Collection ([[Shout! Factory]])<br>
[[File:Flag of USA.png|20px|United States of America]] 2010 — ''The Transformers'' — Seasons Three & Four: 25th Anniversary Edition (Shout! Factory)

==External links==
*[http://cybertronchronicle.freewebspace.com/cartoon-dossier/synopses/five_faces_of_darkness_part_4.html Dossier at the Cybertron Chronicle]

[[Category:The Transformers episodes]]

Guido Guidi

2015-11-20T10:49:21Z

Zackmak: /* Other */

[[File:Guido guidi.jpg|thumb|"Oh hello, what are you doing in my house?"]]
'''Guido Guidi''' (born [[October 20]], 19??) is an [[Wikipedia:Italian people|Italian]] artist. He first made a name for himself as a fan artist, and has gone on to do professional comics work for [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]], [[3H Productions|3H]], [[Devil's Due Press|Devil's Due]], and [[IDW Publishing|IDW]]. One of his particularly notable skills is an extreme versatility, including the ability to emulate other art styles. He even managed to share the workload for parts of ''[[The Transformers: Last Stand of the Wreckers|Last Stand of the Wreckers]]'' with [[Nick Roche]] with no egregious clash in art styles.

==Comic interior book art==
===Dreamwave Productions===
* ''[[Transformers: Armada (Dreamwave)|Armada]]'' [[Dreamwave Armada issue 8|#8]], [[Dreamwave Armada issue 9|#9]], [[Dreamwave Armada issue 10|#10]], [[Dreamwave Armada issue 11|#11]], [[Fire & Ice|#12]], [[Dreamwave Armada issue 13|#13]], [[The End|#18]]
* ''[[Transformers: Energon (comic)|Energon]]'' [[This Evil Reborn|#19]], [[What Lies Beneath|#20]], [[What Lies Beneath, Part Three|#22]]

===Devil's Due Press===
* ''[[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II]]'' [[G.I. Joe vs. the Transformers II issue 3|#3]]

===IDW Publishing===
* ''[[The Transformers: Evolutions|Evolutions]]'': ''[[Hearts of Steel]]'' [[Hearts of Steel issue 1|#1]], [[Hearts of Steel issue 2|#2]], [[Hearts of Steel issue 3|#3]], [[Hearts of Steel issue 4|#4]]
* ''[[The Transformers: Spotlight|Spotlight]]'' [[Spotlight: Galvatron|Galvatron]], [[Spotlight: Mirage|Mirage]]
* ''[[Transformers: Beast Wars: The Ascending|Beast Wars: The Ascending]]'' [[The Ascending issue 4|#4]]
* ''[[The Transformers: All Hail Megatron|All Hail Megatron]]'' #1–8, #10–12, [[All Hail Megatron issue 16|#16 ("The Man of Steel")]]
* ''[[The Transformers: Last Stand of the Wreckers|Last Stand of the Wreckers]]'' [[Last Stand of the Wreckers issue 3|#3]], [[Last Stand of the Wreckers issue 4|#4]]
* ''[[The Transformers (IDW)|The Transformers]]'' [[International Incident Part 1: "The Land Ironclads"|#9]], [[International Incident Part 2: "Ranks of Bronze"|#10]], [[International Incident Part 3: "Hawk Among the Sparrows"|#11]], [[International Incident Part 4: "All My Sins Remembered"|#12]], [[Space Opera Part 1: The Stars My Destination|#19]], [[Space Opera Act 2: Out of the Silent Planet|#20]], [[Space Opera—Final Tableaux: Orphans of the Helix|#21 (first story)]]
* ''[[The Transformers: More than Meets the Eye|More than Meets the Eye]]'' [[Primus: You, Me, and Other Revelations|Annual 2012 (flashback)]], [[Cybertronian Homesick Blues|#13]]
* ''[[The Transformers: Robots in Disguise|Robots in Disguise]]'' [[Primus: All Good Things|Annual 2012 (flashback)]], [[The End of the Beginning of the World|#11]], [[Earthfall Part 2: Detonation Boulevard|#29 (flashback)]], [[Earthfall Part 4: Full Fathom Five|#31 (flashback)]]
* ''[[The Transformers: Regeneration One]]'' [[Destiny, Part Three|#93]], [[Destiny, Part Four|#94]], [[Destiny, Part Five|#95]], [[The War to End All Wars, Part 1|#96]], [[The War to End All Wars, Part 2|#97]], [[The War to End All Wars, Part 3|#98]], [[The War to End All Wars, Part 4|#99]], and the final 12 pages of [[The War to End All Wars, Part 5|#100]]
* ''[[The Transformers: Drift - Empire of Stone|Drift - Empire of Stone]]''

===Titan Magazines===
* [[Transformers Comic issue 5]]

===Fun Publications===
* "[[Wings of Honor]]"

===Million Publishing===
* "[[Starscream's New Body]]"

===TakaraTomy===
* ''[[Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen: Unite for the Universe|Unite for the Universe]]'' #1-2

==Book art==
===DK Books===
* ''[[You Can Draw Transformers]]'' (but not as well as Guido can)

===I Can Read!===
* ''[[Meet the Autobots]]'' (instead of [[Fab Four|the Beatles]])
* ''[[Meet the Decepticons]]''

===Publications International. ltd.===
* ''[[Bumblebee Rumble]]''

==DVD cover art==
===Madman Entertainment===
* [[Transformers: The Headmasters (cartoon)|''Transformers: The Headmasters'' Collection]]
* [[Transformers: Super-God Masterforce (cartoon)|''Transformers: Super God Masterforce'' Collection]]

==Packaging art==
====Armada====
{{collist|3|
* [[Air Military Mini-Con Team]]
* [[Destruction Mini-Con Team]]
* [[Land Military Mini-Con Team]]
* [[Optimus Prime (Armada)|Optimus Prime (Supercon)]]
* [[Race Mini-Con Team]]
* [[Side Swipe (Armada)|Side Swipe]]
* [[Smokescreen (Armada)|Smokescreen]]
* [[Space Mini-Con Team]]
}}
====Energon====
{{collist|3|
* [[Bruticus Maximus (Energon)|Bruticus Maximus]] (illustration on each component robot's packaging)
* [[Cruellock]]
* [[Divebomb (Energon)|Divebomb]]
* [[Perceptor (Armada)|Perceptor]]
* [[Prowl (Energon)|Prowl]]
* [[Rodimus (Energon)|Rodimus]]
* [[Signal Flare (Energon)|Signal Flare]]
}}
==Other==
*''[[Transformers Legends (mobile game)|Transformers Legends]]'' [[Signature Series featuring Guido Guidi]] cards
*''Cover B covers for the entire run of IDW's Regeneration One series

==Gallery==
<center><gallery>
File:DWArmada10 OptimusPrime Illbeback.jpg|
File:Megatronbw.jpg|
File:Blitzwingg1.jpg|
File:SpotlightGalvatron Roadrocket model.jpg|
File:Bumblebee 4A.jpg|
File:RG1 93 cvrB.jpg|
File:RIDAnn2012 cvr2nd.jpg|
File:Laststandissue3 headshots.jpg
</gallery>

* ''[[:Category:Images by Guido Guidi|Extended Guido Guidi gallery]]''</center>

==External links==
* [http://guidoguidi.deviantart.com/ Guido Guidi at deviantART]
* [https://twitter.com/Guido_Guidi Guido Guidi's Twitter feed]

{{creatorstub}}

{{DEFAULTSORT:Guidi, Guido}}
[[Category:Illustrators]]
[[Category:Pencillers]]
[[Category:Fandom]]

MediaWiki talk:Community Portal

2015-11-06T03:20:32Z

Zackmak: /* Why is Glyph not credited in the Character Roster list for the G1 episode 'Five Faces of Darkness part 4'? */ new section