Editing Talk:Heavy Load (Universe)

==Mixmaster?  Is that you?==
[http://toyfair08.asmzine.com/gallery/hasbro/transformers-universe/slides/IMG_9053.html Heavy Load's bio]
Decepticon chemist gone slowly mad by his own projects, used to be sorta different?  Sounds like this dude's Mixmaster to me.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:24, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
:I had the same thought, but I'm not sure what to do with it.  Are we talking about putting his info on Mixmaster's page the way that Tankor is on Octane's?  With the latter, we have a lot more confirmation - right up to the Club mag explicitly saying he's the same guy.  But Heavy Load may as well have been G1 Quickmix, for all we know. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:32, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
::Eh, Quickmix wasn't always a Decepticon chemist.  "Cement mixer Decepticon chemist who's not quite all there" has always been Mixmaster's thing.  And he's missing from Classics Devastator, an absence called out in the fiction.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:21, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
:::"Optimizing fuel mixtures to increase the energy efficiency of all mechanoid life" sounds suspiciously non-Decepticonny to me.  I know that same sentence describes him as "Decepticon Heavy Load," but that could just be an awkward reference to his ''present'' status (plus it's his trademarked name, so...)  Now, I totally hear you with the missing-Constructicon thing - it was likewise the initial thought I had.  Hell, I'd be tickled pink if the Club fiction DID give him that backstory.  But until they do, I'd say all bets are off.  - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

==Move to "Heavy Load (Classics)"?==
I just brought this up over on [[Talk:Transformers: Universe (2008 franchise)]], but this is a good, concrete example.  Since the ''Universe'' Classics guys have a "Classic Series" label on their bios, I think that's good enough reason to identify them as primarily ''Classics'' characters, not ''Universe (2008)''.  It's more informative.  Not only is the term "Universe" laden with a sprawling, vague history, but the 2008 line is ALREADY split between ''Classics'' and ''Robot Heroes.'' - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:00, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
:I really disagree. "Classics Series" is a subline, if anything, of ''Universe''. It's like moving [[Scavenger (BW)]] to "Scavenger (Transmetals)". The continuity note can be made to be more specific ("the Classics portion of Universe") , but the article stays. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 02:11, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
::That's not unheard of.  We have the likes of [[Long Haul (Universe Micromaster)]], after all.  The reasoning behind that was different, yes, but I think this new situation also calls for an exception.  "Universe" as a franchise is so diffuse and definition-less, I don't think we should give it the weight of creating splits in how we label the other franchises it subsumes.  There is no fictional or conceptual break between these new toys called "Classics" and the old ones (likewise with ''Robot Heroes,'' for that matter).  Making the ''Universe'' jump our primary label does a disservice to readers who should be getting the most ''relevant'' information, not the most pedantic. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 02:44, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
:::I think this should be moved to "Heavy Load (Classic Series)", as I feel we should keep the old Universe and the new Universe separate at all times, as they are two completely different things. The old Universe had a storyline to go with it, the new is just a catch-all name. The Universe parenthetical should be applied only to characters from the original, as they would be considered part of that storyline. More importantly, I don't think Heavy Load belongs in the "Universe characters" category as, again, that should be for characters who were part of the old Universe storyline. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 06:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

::::I'm with Kil, at least insofar that I strongly feel that the parenthetical '''disambigs''' should not, themselves, be '''ambiguous'''. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 08:14, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyone else want to weigh in? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 18:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
:You're putting too much stock into the name. The function of the parenthetical is to ''disambiguate'', not specify exactly which continuity the guy's from. That's what ''reading'' the article is for. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
::Right.  It says "Universe" on his card, and the parenthetical is not about what continuity he's from.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:03, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
:::I disagree with using "Classics" in any form here, but do feel that "Universe" itself is a bit confusing, since the two Universe lines are fairly distinct. Why not (Universe 2008) like the category he's under? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:05, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
::::Reluctantly I must agree with Walky.  The parenthetical disambig's purpose is ''not'' to identify the continuity.  It is to disambig- to make it so that this article can only refer to one character.  Since there was no 'Heavy Load' int he 2004 Universe line, it does that already.
::::The indented italicized ''continuity identifier'' at the top of the page is supposed to identify the continuity.  That is it's job.
::::95% of the time the two will be identical.  But they don't have to be.  And in this case when the ''continuity'' spans multiple franchises, it ''shouldn't''.
::::(Note: the continuity identifier is currenly screwed up, saying it's the 'classics part of the Universe franchise.'  I'm fixing.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::I'm not talking about continuity. I am, however, talking about two distinct franchises that share a name. I think "Universe" should stay, since that's the franchise name, but I ''also'' think it needs something else {{m-}}like "2008"{{m-}} to up-front at-a-glance specify ''which'' of the two Universe franchises he's in. Remember, this will also show up in Category directories outside of "Universe 2008", like "Decepticons". --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:32, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

::This is NOT about continuities.  This is the [[Transformers: Classics|existing Classics FRANCHISE]] versus the [[Transformers: Universe (2008 franchise)|new Universe franchise]].  The Classics franchise had been loosely defined by package design and various sources calling toys "Classics."  Heavy Load's package says "Classic Series," which to my mind makes him part of the Classics ''franchise.''  Yes, he's ALSO part of the Universe (2008) franchise, and that's the bigger label on the box.  If our hard-and-fast rule is to always default to the most prominent label, then so be it.  But I hold that "Universe" has become nearly meaningless, and it serves the Wiki better to continue using the Classics franchise identifier where it applies.  If most folks still disagree, then fair enough.  I just don't want us getting derailed by a strawman. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 21:12, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
:::The main point is still that it's only for disambiguation. You're getting worked up over something we only do because [[Heavy Load (Cybertron)]] and [[Heavy Load (RID)]] can't occupy the same space. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 00:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
::::And yet it becomes part of the TITLE, which is the biggest, most visually important part of the page.  Also, it spills over into how we ought to be labeling the Toys section for all these guys.  It may not matter to you, but it matters to ''me'' that we make the best choice.  If everybody else thinks the best choice is different, then so be it.  But if you really think the question doesn't matter, then why participate in the discussion? - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::Because the (unwritten) policy is using the line the toy is released in for the parenthetical (i.e. [[Cryotek]] used to be at [[Cryotek (RID)]]). There shouldn't even an argument about the toy section's name. The line's name is ''Universe''. That's all there is to it. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
::::::But there are ''two lines called "Universe"''. This presents ''confusion''. I say we move the page to "Heavy Load (Universe 2008)". We disambig pages with "(Movie)", and yet "Movie" ''is not what the line is called'', is it? Or "G1", for that matter? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 04:12, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::::You're worried you may confuse him with the Heavy Load from the other Universe line? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::::Disambigs are not descriptive.  That's why they're non-mandatory.  They're apprended to article names only so that the articles are kept ''seperate''.
:::::::The continuity note- the '''very first line of the article''' will say he's from Classics continuity, not the 2004 TFU. -06:14, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Heavy Load is a "Universe" toy, and also a "Classic Series" toy, so in the interest of maintaining the distinction between the old and new Universe lines at all times, I think his paranthetical should be "Classic Series." It just seems obvious to me. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 12:27, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I just want to note that despite Interrobang's assertion that this discussion is "dead," it seems merely stalled between a few different viewpoints:  The disambig should be "Universe" (Interrobang/Walky/Derik), "Universe 2008" (Siph), "Classics" (me), or "Classic Series" (Kil).  Going by the numbers, the current disambig has gotten more votes.  But I don't think any of the dissenters have actually changed their minds.  Just felt like that summation was in order. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 23:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
:Certainly haven't changed my mind. "Classic Series" is the parenthetical that makes the most sense to me. It shouldn't be "Universe" because there's two of those and we need to keep them distinct. It shouldn't be "Classics" because Heavy Load is ''not'' a "Classics" toy. What he is is a "Classic Series" toy released under the new Universe banner. So while (Universe 2008) would be better than just (Universe), with and over-arching line like the new Universe, I think the more specific sub-lines should be used, thus (Classic Series). --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 00:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
::To play devil's advocate, the most persuasive argument I've seen from the "Universe" side, laid out by Derik [[Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal#Disambiguation|here]], is that if any part of this Wiki needs hard-and-fast rules, it's the disambig.  You should, if you know the rule, be able to deduce the disambig with reasonable accuracy.  And rule that stands now is, start from the very top of the franchise tree and work your way down until there's no conflict, then be as brief as possible.  Since the highest-level franchise for Heavy Load is ''Universe,'' and there is no other possible "Universe Heavy Load," you use the disambig "(Universe)".  You don't say "(Universe 2008)" for the same reason that we don't say "[[Divebomb (Classics)|Divebomb (Classics 2006)]]".  Since there was no Divebomb in the [[Classics (Europe)|European Classics]], there's no need for a longer disambig.
::Now, for what it's worth, I don't fully buy the notion that you need to be able to deduce all disambigs from a rule, mainly because there are so many oddball instances that I don't even try to predict anymore.  If I'm searching for an article or double-checking my links, I go to the actual disambig ''pages'' and hunt from there.  This was driven home to me when recently I was editing an article with links to a bunch of "Shattered Glass" characters, and my instinct was to write "(Shattered Glass)" for each one.  But, of course, those pages are actually a mix of that and "(Timelines)", and it was less effort to go to all the pages and copy-paste than it was to try to puzzle out which ones would be which.  So, in that case, the rule served no purpose and in fact encouraged errors.
::So what I'm really advocating goes beyond just the ''Classics'' or ''Classic Series'' guys and affects how we deal with disambigs in general.  When the rule ends up creating a situation with its own kind of ambiguity - and I think the "Heavy Load (Universe)" case definitely applies - we should be able to bend the rules to favor more intuitively sensical results.  There's the rub, of course:  One man's intuition is another's nonsense.  But in this case, I think it makes a lot more intuitive sense to favor the ''Classics'' lineage over the confusing ''Universe'' umbrella.  Now, if no one else finds that as intuitive, then it would achieve the opposite effect if I were to try and impose my view on others.  But if I'm not alone, then maybe the established way should be changed.
::- [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 01:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

=="Universe" in the continuity-note==
Universe isn't really a part of any continuity family...toys like the new legends, and the majority of the product so far, look to be listed as "Classic Series". The Prime reissue is labeled as "G1 Series". Similarly, I'm sure Hot Shot will be "Armada Series" despite being in Universe packaging. I submit then that characters like Heavy Load and Acid Storm belong to the Classics portion of the G1 continuity family. --[[User:Spectre|Spectre]] 05:53, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
:I agree, and I just brought a similar point up over in [[Talk:Transformers: Classics#Universe 2008|Talk:Classics]].  I think the ''Universe (2008)'' label is being given too important a role in how we define things, and it's causing more than one negative effect. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 23:49, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
::The continuity note should, I think, follow the pattern established on pages like [[Backstop  (Universe)]] and read "Heavy Load is an Autobot from the Generation 1 continuity family (via Universe)." --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 00:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
:::Hm.  That's an interesting way of acknowledging umbrella franchises.  I could get behind that. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 00:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
::::It just struck me as the best way of handling it. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 03:11, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

==Unicron Trilogy/G1==
Wait, this guy retconned by Vector Prime to be a Unicron Trilogy character but he also appeared in IDW G1. So...shouldn't we split this page=?--[[User:Primestar3|Primestar3]] ([[User talk:Primestar3|talk]]) 12:29, 24 September 2015 (EDT)
:Vector Prime noted that he was "the same Spark" despite being in two different universes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 13:03, 24 September 2015 (EDT)