Editing Scale

[[Image:OptimusSnakeEyes.jpg|right|300px|thumb|And the truck's how big...?]]
'''Scale''' in ''Transformers'' is, not to put too fine a point on it, screwed.

Virtually no era, franchise, fiction, [[Toy|toyline]] or other incarnation of ''Transformers'' has presented scale in a logical or believable fashion. (The only exceptions are the 1:24 toys for ''[[Alternators]]'' and ''[[Kiss Players (toyline)|Kiss Players]]'', but they [[Atari Hitotonari|have their own problems]].) Most fans agree that one must either ignore it or accept it, lest they be tempted to explain these problems and in the process fanwank themselves into oblivion.

However, the scale problems of ''Transformers'' still merit description.



{{bigquote|"Clearly, the pitiful humans at Hasbro are so overwhelmed by the awesomeness of Cybertronian life forms that they can't get the scale right."|[[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]|[[Transformers Comic issue 23|Star Scream's #23]]}}

==Scale within toylines==

===Toys out of scale with others in the same line===
[[Image:DiacloneScale.jpg|right|350px|thumb|That little guy — who comes from the same toyline as all those vehicles — is supposed to be a normal-sized human. Yeeeah.]]
The early [[The Transformers (toyline)|Generation 1 toyline]], especially the pre-[[The Transformers: The Movie|movie]] lines, were repackaged and [[Redeco|redecoed]] toys from several different Japanese toylines. The crucial point is that the toylines were initially unrelated. The characters ''should'' be in scale to each other as they all have real-world altmodes that (should) pass for real vehicles. However, since ''[[Diaclone]]'' toys were not part of the same line as ''[[Microman]]'' toys, scale issues arose. ''Diaclone'' figures such as [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|Optimus Prime]], [[Prowl (G1)|Prowl]] and [[Hound (G1)|Hound]] are more-or-less in correct scale to each other (though problems already arise with [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] and [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]], whose [[alternate mode]]s are based on ''the same car'' yet are not quite the same size), but many of the [[Mini Vehicle]]s from the ''New Microman'' line are clearly far too small by comparison. Even aside from their deformed penny-racer proportions, a [[Bumblebee (G1)/toys|Volkswagen Beetle]] Microman toy is disproportionately tiny when compared to a [[Jazz (G1)/toys|Porsche 935]] Diaclone toy. The disparity becomes even more obvious with [[Mini Vehicle|Minibots]] such as [[Warpath (G1)|Warpath]] (a tank) and [[Seaspray (G1)|Seaspray]] (a hovercraft), who should be many times their actual size.

Another glaring scale problem comes in the form of the [[Seeker (body-type)|Seekers]], who turn into F-15 Eagles which, in real life, are 19.4 m (63.8 feet) long. Correctly scaled, this would make their robot modes ''colossal'' compared to most Autobots. Similarly, the [[Constructicon (G1)|Constructicons]], despite also coming from the ''Diaclone'' line, are too small. Far worse is the other ''Diaclone'' combiner team, the [[Trainbot]]s, who have train engine altmodes, yet their toys are among the ''smallest'' of the ''Diaclone'' releases.

Transformers are currently formalised to a variety of [[size class|size classes]], which dictate the approximate cost and dimensions of a figure. Consequently, if the powers that be release toys of two characters in the same line in the same size class, they're going to come out in the same size. Even if one character's a [[Starscream (Movie)|twenty-metre fighter jet]] and the other's a [[Ironhide (Movie)|five-metre pickup truck]]. So don't expect this one to go away any time soon.

===Toys out of scale within teams===
Even toys specifically designed to interact with each other suffer from this problem. The [[Combaticon (G1)|Combaticons]] are wildly out of scale to each other—[[Blast Off (G1)|Blast Off]]'s space shuttle mode should dwarf [[Swindle (G1)|Swindle]], with the others somewhere in between. Instead, they're about the same size. Among the Constructicons, [[Long Haul (G1)|Long Haul]] is designed to look like a gigantic [[Wikipedia:Image:Liebherr t282 1.jpg|"earth-mover" mining truck]]. He should be able to carry all his teammates in his bed, with some crowding. Similarly, [[Silverbolt (G1)|Silverbolt]] (a Concorde jet) is dramatically undersized compared to his fighter-jet [[Aerialbot (G1)|Aerialbot]] teammates. These scale problems are necessary to avoid misproportioned gestalt forms.

Don't even ask about the Protectobots with their [[Groove (G1)|motorcycle]] and [[Blades (G1)|helicopter]] limbs...

===Same altmode, different sizes===
Other scale problems come from characters who transform into the same (or similar) altmodes but whose toys are different sizes. For example [[Air Raid (G1)|Air Raid]] transforms into an F-15 Eagle, but his toy is half the size of [[Starscream (G1)/toys|Starscream]]'s. The same can be said for the Lamborghini Countach [[Breakdown (G1)|Breakdown]], who should be the same size as [[Sunstreaker (G1)|Sunstreaker]] and [[Sideswipe (G1)|Sideswipe]], not significantly smaller. These discrepancies are also seen in the other [[Scramble City]] combiners with Earth altmodes, whose toys are all smaller than similar earlier toys.

===Multiple scales of same character===
Although it was never really a problem in G1 (later retro-iterations of [[Optimus Prime (G1)/toys|G1 Prime]] e.g. [[Masterpiece]] don't count), later franchises sometimes released multiple versions of the same character in different [[size class]]es ''within the same product line'', usually limited to the leader characters. Multiple versions of [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]] and [[Megatron (BW)/toys|Megatron]] in ''[[Beast Wars (toyline)|Beast Wars]]'' weren't exactly an example of this, as they represented different bodies, but ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]'' began the problem in earnest with three different [[Cheetor (BW)/toys|Cheetor toys]] released over the course of the line. With one toy at the Supreme size point, one at the Mega point, and a third slight variant at the Deluxe point, there was no real indication of which size if any was the "correct" one. The same line also released two different [[Jetstorm (BM)|Jetstorm]] toys, two different Tankor toys, two different Thrust toys, and two different Optimus Primals. (Though in the case of the Vehicons one of each pair could be considered a distinct "drone" version; in the media the "drones" and the "sparked" Vehicons were physically indistinguishable.) 

[[Image:TFAnimated RolloutCommand OptimusPrime toy.jpg|right|230px|thumb|Hooray. I'm in scale with nobody.]]
''[[Robots in Disguise (toyline)|Robots in Disguise]]'' continued the trend, with several prominent characters receiving a smaller [[Spy Changer]] toy in addition to their larger toy, such as [[Scourge (RID)|Scourge]] and [[X-Brawn]].  The ''[[Armada (toyline)|Armada]]'' line featured both a Super-Con and Super-Base version of [[Optimus Prime (Armada)/toys|Optimus Prime]] featuring the same design at different size-classes, an issue repeated with [[Megatron (Armada)/toys|Megatron]] in ''[[Energon (toyline)|Energon]]''. The introduction of the "Legends of Cybertron" size class in ''[[Cybertron (toyline)|Cybertron]]'' only compounded matters, as a plethora of different characters were released at a size wildly out of scale with any of their contemporaries. ''Cybertron'' also featured the first notable case of out-of-scale toys being at least partially explained in the fiction with [[Starscream (Armada)|Starscream]], who did change size over the course of the series.

With the explosion of toys for the [[Movie (toyline)|Movie]], even more scale problems erupted. The line offered both Voyager and Leader-class iterations of [[Optimus Prime (Movie)/toys|Prime]] and [[Megatron (Movie)|Megatron]], not to mention nearly all of the movie's onscreen cast getting a Fast Action Battler toy which introduces scale problems between the toys and one another. The fact that [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] came with a small Scorponok, and a separate Deluxe class [[Scorponok (Movie)|Scorponok]] was released, only expands the scale problems when one realizes that the Blackout and Deluxe Scorponok toys are meant to interact. Blackout can carry the small Scorponok ''while'' clipped on to the larger one as well, effectively transporting ''both'' at the same time, which makes the entire assembly a nightmare of scaling problems.

This mishmash has expanded even further in the ''[[Transformers Animated (toyline)|Animated]]'' line, with Deluxe, Voyager, and even Supreme-class versions of [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]]. [[Megatron (Animated)|Megatron]], has an Activators, Deluxe, Voyager and Leader mode. And there's even three different sizes for poor [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]]: Leader, Voyager, and Activator.

Originally, the intent was apparently to make the popular [[Optimus (disambiguation)|Optimus]] and [[Megatron (disambiguation)|Megatron]] characters available at lower price points than just "leader" class so that children with less money would not miss out, while also forcing [[completist]] [[User:ItsWalky|collectors]] to buy multiple versions of one character. The result, however, is that it creates further confusion about scale within the toyline, as the contradictory sizes of these toys leave it [[Personal canon|up to the fans]] to determine which is the "correct" version, either using apparent [[show-accuracy]] or other criteria. Sometimes this creates even further problems, though—if one assumes that the Voyager-class Movie Prime is the "correct" version, then he either has comically small seats for human passengers or [[Ironhide (Movie)|Ironhide]] has absurdly large seats.

===Toys out of scale with themselves===
[[Image:G1 Broadside toy.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Kill me. Just... kill me now.]]
[[Triple Changer]]s create a whole new set of problems. [[Octane]] transforms from a 20 m (60') tanker truck into a 65 m (200') jumbo jet. [[Broadside (G1)|Broadside]] transforms from an Earth jet into an entire ''aircraft carrier.''

Even a two-mode toy can have this problem. Twentieth Anniversary Optimus Prime has wheels which are pretty tiny for a Freightliner truck, while his rear hitch section is too thick. These out-of-proportion vehicle parts were necessary to give his robot mode [[Show-accuracy|show-accurate]] proportions.

===Toys with roleplay altmodes===
The characters with roleplay altmodes such as Generation 1 [[Megatron (G1)/toys|Megatron]], [[Soundwave (G1)/toys|Soundwave]], [[Perceptor (G1)|Perceptor]], or [[Laserbeak (Armada)|''Armada'' Laserbeak]] are scaled to be human-scale (well, kid-scale). Since the [[size changing]] seen in the fiction is not possible for real toys (at least, that's what [[TakaraTomy|Takara]] ''wants'' us to think), this human-scaling makes in some cases for inordinately large robot modes. E.g., [[Blaster (G1)|Blaster]]'s toy, in robot mode, is taller than most other Transformers.

The opposite problem is seen with [[Megatron (G1)/toys|Masterpiece Megatron]], whose robot mode is in scale with Masterpiece Optimus Prime. The result is that, while he may transform into a very accurately-proportioned handgun, it's unmistakably much larger than the real thing. (Not that this has stopped him being widely banned as a "realistic firearm replica"...)

===Fanciful altmodes===
Most post-[[The Transformers: The Movie|movie]] Generation 1 characters (for that matter, most post-Generation 1 lines) are difficult to accurately scale, as they generally transform into futuristic or Cybertronian vehicles whose size we don't really know. (Or, indeed, they don't transform into vehicles at all.) The scale of characters such as [[Hot Rod (G1)/toys|Hot Rod]] or [[Overhaul (Cybertron)|Leobreaker]] is fairly arbitrary and can only be estimated by their relative size to other characters in the fiction (although most fiction is highly inconsistent in this regard, see below). Nevertheless, if one assumes that most vehicle altmodes are intended for human-sized passengers, comparing toys such as [[Chromedome (G1)|Chromedome]] and [[Lightspeed (Technobot)|Lightspeed]] suggests the combiner scale problem continues.

===Big toys===
It goes without saying that the [[city-bot]] and planetbot toys (such as [[Fortress Maximus (G1)|Fortress Maximus]] and [[Unicron]]) are not remotely to scale with normal Transformer toys. While they are indeed ''large'' toys, they're only two to five times bigger than typical Transformer toys, and thus transform into "cities" and "planets" about the (relative) size of a bungalow. The scale problems extend to the details. Some of the citybot toys have visible windows, which are too large for a city, suggesting instead a medium-sized building.

However, it's hard to begrudge Hasbro not offering us a [[Primus]] toy the size of an asteroid. Where would we keep it?

===An exception===
There has only been one notable exception to all of this scale weirdness in the toys: the ''Alternators'' toyline, where every toy is a 1:24-scale representation of a real car, and thus they are in perfect scale with each other. Unfortunately, for practical reasons this limits the choice of altmodes. A Blast Off (space shuttle) toy in scale with the Alternators toys would be 1.6 m (5.1') long, while a Broadside (aircraft carrier) toy at that scale would be over 12 m (40'). (Hasbro actually displayed [[Prototype|mock-ups]] for an unproduced line of "military" Transformers in scale with the Alternators during the BotCon 2007 Hasbro Tour; two of them recycled parts of ''[[Armada (toyline)|Armada]]'' [[Unicron]], and were thus [[Size class|Supreme-sized]], which made said potential toyline not particularly commercially viable for Hasbro.)

== Scale within fictions ==
Scale issues abound within the fiction, especially the [[The Transformers (cartoon)|Generation 1 cartoon]]. Some can be attributed to [[animation error]]s, such as layering problems,<sup>[[:Image:Tinybluestreak.jpg|1]][[:Image:Huge Ironhide and Small Ratchet.jpg|2]][[:Image:CarnageMiniBlaster.jpg|3]]</sup> but some "errors" were deliberate choices, for a variety of reasons.

===Fictional scale vs. toy scale===
[[Image:TeenyCliff.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Frighteningly toy-accurate.]]
[[Image:Powerglide Astoria Marygoaround.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Actually, [[Kiss Players (franchise)|disturbing fiction]] is probably more of a concern than scale issues.]]
G1 ''Transformers'' fiction often depicts characters to the same relative scale as the toys, which duplicates the intra-toyline problems described above. The cartoon, for example, shows Prime, Megatron and Soundwave as about the same height, Seekers and Autobot cars as slightly shorter (though not as much as the toys are), and Minibots as smaller yet. This scale was carried over to their vehicle forms, resulting in differently-sized cars that, based on real world measurements, should be virtually the same size.

[[Image:Omegasupreme astrotrain.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I know he's meant to be big, but holy crap, dude!]]
For another example, the Marvel Comics portrayed the Pretenders as literal interpretations of their toys: 60-foot humans with full scale Transformers inside. The "disguise" aspect of this was later explained by having Landmine and Cloudburst encounter giant, transformer-sized humanoids on an alien planet which made them appear to be of a "normal" scale.

Transformers fiction commonly shrinks or inflates characters, relative to their toy sizes. "Giant" characters such as [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]] are, even aside from any [[size changing]] for transport purposes, clearly not in the same scale in toy form as they are depicted on screen. [[Mini-Cassette|Cassette characters]] such as [[Rumble (G1)|Rumble]]'s toys are roughly the same height as most Minibots, while in the show they are usually portrayed as human-sized.

[[Hot Rod (G1)|Rodimus Prime]] and [[Ultra Magnus (G1)|Ultra Magnus]] are usually shown to be of a fairly similar height (although Magnus is much bulkier), whereas there is a considerable difference between the size of their toys. By the same token, Rodimus is always depicted as being an equal stature to his opposing leader [[Galvatron (G1)|Galvatron]], whereas the toy Galvatron is instead the same size as Magnus. Optimus Prime is also usually shown as only a head or so shorter than Magnus (if that), which gets very strange when you realise that a [[redeco]] of Prime's toy forms but a small part of Magnus' robot mode.

[[Image:Beastwarsmaxgroup.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Airazor picks the Ultra-class figure.]]
The cast of ''[[Beast Wars (cartoon)|Beast Wars]]'' were size-tweaked quite a bit, relative to the toyline. The most noticeable problem is Optimus Primal, who has an Ultra toy (the "level four" size, almost twice the size of the "level three" Mega next-largest Maximal toys), but is shorter than both Dinobot and Rhinox (both of whom are "level two" Deluxe sized toys). Further, Cheetor and Tigatron's toys use the same (Deluxe) mold, but Tigatron is a head taller in the show (both because tigers are larger than cheetahs, and because Cheetor is "a kid"). New and altered characters in later seasons were generally more consistent in size (and appearance) with the toys.

The ''[[Beast Machines (toyline)|Beast Machines]]''' toyline was ''far'' worse in size discrepancies with the cartoon. Of the Maximals featured in the show, the tallest character, [[Silverbolt (BW)|Silverbolt]], is the ''shortest'' toy, while the diminutive [[Nightscream (BM)|Nightscream]] is a massive Ultra-class toy. And, sadly, the most show-accurate toy, Air Attack [[Optimus Primal/toys|Optimus Primal]], is a ''ginormous'' Supreme figure, towering over the other toys. (Weirdly, the King Kong-like size of this toy became canon in one specific [[micro-continuity]]. {{storylink|Prime Spark}})
{{-}}

[[Image:ShrinkingHeavy.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I lost thirty tons, thanks to the Jump-Cut! Thank you, Jump-Cut!]]
In the otherwise fairly toy-scale-savvy [[Unicron Trilogy]], [[Metroplex (Cybertron)|''Cybertron'' Metroplex]] and the other citizens of [[Gigantion]] are depicted as gargantuan in animation, whereas the toys are merely among the normal boxed size-classes.  Within the animation, this causes problems with their Mini-Con partners, who are depicted as human-sized in robot mode by themselves, but when shown directly interacting with their larger partners, are scaled up right along with their partner... resulting in some temporarily gigantic Mini-Cons!

The Japanese ''[[Cybertron (franchise)#Galaxy Force|Galaxy Force]]'' release of Metroplex, dubbed "Megalo Convoy", included an exclusive [[redeco]] of the [[Legends Class|Legends of Cybertron]] [[Optimus Prime (Armada)/toys|Optimus Prime toy]] to indicate the "correct" scale.

The ''[[Transformers Animated (franchise)|Animated]]'' franchise has its share of scale problems when comparing its toyline to the cartoon (not helped by multiple releases of some characters in different sizes—see above), with several characters seeming roughly one [[size class]] too small, such as the [[Dinobot (Animated)|Dinobots]] being a mix of one Voyager size and two Deluxes, [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)|Sentinel Prime]] looking rather diminutive as a Deluxe, and, most egregiously, [[Lugnut]] as a ''very'' squat Voyager who's shorter than even some Deluxes. (As with Voyager-class Bulkhead, more of his mass went into his width, plus his weapon takes away some from his robot mode.) Conversely, the traditionally stunted [[Bumblebee (Animated)|Bumblebee]] is marginally too tall and bulky to be in correct scale to his otherwise fairly accurate core teammates, assuming one includes Voyager [[Optimus Prime (Animated)|Optimus]] and Leader [[Bulkhead (Animated)|Bulkhead]] in their lineup. In fact, Animated is one of those toylines where you're not quite sure who you're supposed to base correct scale on.

===Inconsistent portrayal===
[[Image:OmegaSupremeintro.jpg|left|175px|thumb|No! Don't wash him in hot water! He'll...]]
[[Image:Omegasupreme-blasterandgrimlock.jpg|right|200px|thumb|...too late.]]
Even if a size was decided on, it often didn't remain consistent. The height of the cartoon's [[Jetfire (G1)|Skyfire]], just to name one, frequently varied between episodes.

The [[The Transformers (Marvel Comics)|Generation 1 Marvel comic]] is notorious for changing the relative sizes of various characters. A single Transformer's size is rarely consistent between artists. For example, Rumble and Frenzy vary in height relative to Soundwave. A panel in the "[[Time Wars]]" shows [[Bumblebee (G1)|Goldbug]], [[Ironhide (G1)|Ironhide]], [[Scattershot]], and [[Swoop (G1)|Swoop]] all the same height. [[Omega Supreme (G1)|Omega Supreme]], titanic in his original appearance, {{storylink|Command Performances!}} shrunk steadily in subsequent issues until he was not much taller than the average Transformer. Fortress Maximus suffered a similar problem, shrinking in size even though he was explicitly rebuilt to be twice as tall as the average Transformer.

[[Image:Beastwarriors scale.jpg|right|150px|thumb|Beast Megatron's size vs. Optimus Prime's in America... and Japan. Looks like the Blasty Zone adds on a few tons to Beast Era characters.]]
Between the [[Great War (G1)|Great War]] and the [[Beast Era]], the majority of the Cybertronian race considerably downgraded in size at the [[Great Upgrade]]. When entering the [[Ark (G1)|Ark]], the Beast Warriors are quite small compared to the dormant Generation 1 characters, especially [[Optimus Prime (G1)|Optimus Prime]]—but just ''how'' much bigger varies quite a bit from scene to scene and episode to episode.  When interacting with the Autobot technology of the Ark and the [[Autobot shuttle]], the Maximals are often dealing with equipment grossly oversized for them (standing on the chairs to reach the controls, turning knobs the size of their heads); yet the Ark also seems to feature some human-sized computer control panels. {{storylink|Master Blaster|Master Blaster}}  Without any height booster, Blackarachnia can interface well with these controls.

On the other hand, ''[[Robot Masters (franchise)|Robot Masters]]'' depicted Generation 1 and ''Beast Wars'' characters like Optimus Prime and Optimus Primal as being exactly the same size. Lovely. It's possible that passage through the [[Blasty Zone]] may somehow [[Wikipedia:Boom tube#Later Additions to the Concept|account for this discrepancy]].

===Explicit size changes===
{{main|size changing}}

Numerous characters are explicitly shown to shrink or expand at various times.

====Human-scaled alternate modes====
Blaster becomes a human-size radio; Megatron shrinks into a Transformer-scaled handgun. The cartoons and comics typically show this without explanation, leaving the reader to attribute it to advanced alien technology.

====Pretenders====
Some versions of the Pretenders are shown to explicitly shrink when hiding in their human-sized outer shells. In the U.S. toy commercials, Grimlock, Bumblebee, and Jazz in their new Pretender forms were small enough to fit in Powermaster Optimus Prime's hand. So, at least in that [[micro-continuity]], they were human-sized. ''[[Super-God Masterforce (cartoon)|Super-God Masterforce]]'' featured Pretenders who did not have outer shells but rather an ill-defined holistic transformation which explicitly involved size changing. A vaguely similar explanation appeared in [[Dreamwave Productions|Dreamwave]]'s ''[[More Than Meets The Eye (G1)|More Than Meets The Eye]]'' encyclopedia.

===Implicit size changes===
Characters often change size in a less explicit fashion when transforming. These changes in scale are usually attributed to size-changing by that portion of the fan base who like to find explanations for things. The other explanation is that the artists hoped the audience wouldn't notice. It can also be supposed that they are hiding their mass somewhere (car style Transformers storing mass in their passenger compartments when in humanoid form, Starscream folding his wings flat, the buildings in a city-bot collapsing to eliminate the spaces normally occupied by humans, boat-bots filling up or getting rid of the vast empty areas used to provide buoyancy) or puffing up with empty space, but at a certain point, things just get silly. Some Transformers are smaller than solid blocks of the mass contained in their alt modes: Unicron would have to be about as thick as the Earth's crust while in planetary form, and Optimus would probably be blown away by a stiff breeze in his larger incarnations.

====Transport characters====
In the original cartoon, Transformers that act as transport for other Transformers, such as [[Astrotrain (G1)|Astrotrain]], [[Jetfire (G1)|Skyfire]], and [[Cosmos (G1)|Cosmos]], will often dramatically change size relative to their compatriots between one shot and the next. For example, Cosmos is ''much'' shorter than Blaster in robot form; yet Blaster easily fits within his spacecraft mode. Likewise, a whole squad of Decepticons can fit into Astrotrain's shuttle mode easily, yet he's an ordinary-sized trooper in his robot form.

Sometimes the cartoon would show ordinarily-scaled characters such as Cyclonus, Thrust or Huffer carrying another Transformer in their cockpit, implying either a tiny passenger or a huge vehicle. Even Omega Supreme, who is supposed to be huge, would have to have a greatly expanded scale for his rocket ship component to accommodate passengers as shown on the cartoon.

The Marvel comics commonly sidestepped this issue by not using Transformers as transport characters, or else requiring the passengers to transform into their explicitly smaller forms to be carried. Yet they  were not immune to this problem. In one story, the Pretender [[Cloudburst]] exited his shell, transformed into jet mode, and then his shell (and [[Landmine (G1)|Landmine]]) boarded him as a passenger. The fact that his ''outer'' shell was now much smaller than the ''inner'' robot was quietly ignored. {{storylink|Guess Who the Mecannibals Are Having for Dinner?}}

Dreamwave's ''More Than Meets The Eye'' series of bio comics tried to explain this for characters such as Astrotrain and Broadside by saying they're able to expand themselves to increase cargo space in vehicle mode, though their armor becomes thinner as it is spread out more. Conversely, the series notes, in robot mode, all that armor and structure being compressed into a smaller form makes that mode stronger and more durable for combat.

<center><gallery>
Image:MakeHoistHuffer.jpg|Definitely ''not'' toy-accurate.
Image:Ironhide carried into Ratchet.jpg|...And not to mention [[Ironhide (G1)|th]][[Ratchet (G1)|is]].
</gallery></center>

====Combiner characters====
[[Image:DreamwaveCover6.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Since when is a sedan nine stories tall?]]
[[Combiner]] characters are often depicted as far larger than the sum of their parts. Characters such as [[Devastator (G1)|Devastator]] and [[Menasor (G1)|Menasor]] are frequently shown as [[That big green, fire-snortin' lizard|Godzilla]]-sized. Given that their limbs are mere cars and construction vehicles, this is patently absurd. ([[Superion (G1)|Superion]], by contrast, ''would'' be building-sized, given that his torso is a 100-seat jetliner.)

Combiners are also often out-of-scale with other Transformers; a combiner with cars for legs and another car for its torso should be only twice as tall as a one-car Transformer, but they are routinely drawn as five to dozens of times taller than their comrades.

====Scale problems and size-changing====
Some fans interpret the many otherwise-unexplained scale issues above to all be the result of [[size changing]], but this is debatable. If virtually all characters use mass-shifting (or whatever) to gain or drop a few feet of height for no logical reason, the technology would be pointlessly mundane. There's also no known reason for (e.g.) the Seekers to choose to get ''shorter'' when going into battle. A to-scale Starscream in robot mode could kick Bumblebee around like a soccer ball. There's simply no positive evidence that size-changing is so widespread.

===Undersized alternate modes===
Many Transformers are portrayed in fiction as having alternate modes that are smaller than the real-life objects they are imitating. Sometimes this is deliberate, allowing them to match their toy scale and/or be of a similar size to other characters; in other cases, it is essentially an artistic error.

Toys at the lowest price points usually include "mini" or "micro" in their name. [[Mini Vehicle]]s [[Warpath (G1)|Warpath]], [[Seaspray (G1)|Seaspray]], and [[Powerglide (G1)|Powerglide]] are usually depicted as smaller than other Transformers in fiction, even though their alternate modes should have them towering over other characters. This often results in minuscule vehicle forms; Seaspray is a tiny hovercraft, despite being covered with doors and windows.

[[Image:Hotrodpatrolcommercial.jpg|left|200px|thumb|Do you have change for four hot rods?]]
The [[Micromaster]]s are explicitly downsized Transformers, roughly the size of a human in the comics, meaning that they ''should'' have explicitly tiny vehicle modes... which wouldn't make for very convincing disguises. The Micromasters are about the same height in robot mode, but they transform into equally tiny cars, trucks, planes, tanks, and other vehicles that should be vastly different sizes. 

Despite this, the Marvel comic featured [[Roadhandler (G1)|Roadhandler]] carrying a human passenger in his vehicle form, as though he were a full-sized car. The Dreamwave miniseries ''[[Micromasters]]'' suggested that the Micromasters were scaled down to interact more easily with "smaller beings". Whether that meant creatures of human scale or even smaller stature is never clarified, but the Micromasters' passenger compartments are presumably too small to accommodate human passengers.

The [[Mini-Con]]s of the [[Unicron Trilogy]] are another race of small robots who stand approximately the same height as humans and, like the Micromasters before them, are clearly modeled to carry passengers. Really teeny passengers. (Notable exceptions are [[Grindor (Armada)|Grindor]] (in his original body), [[Sureshock (Armada)|Sureshock]], and [[High Wire (Armada)|High Wire]], who become small one-man conveyances.) This results from the Mini-Cons scanning normal vehicles and then resizing them to fit, retaining now-useless passenger compartments. In the [[Cybertron (cartoon)|''Cybertron'' cartoon]], the [[Recon Mini-Con Team]] have slightly-larger-than-human robot modes, but their alternate modes are large enough for a single human passenger, implying either a little size-changing or that their cockpits are kinda cramped. Though the Recon Team all originate from Gigantion, and seeing how partnered Mini-Cons seem to change size to fit their larger companions, a little size shift to accomodate a passenger doesn't seem too far-fetched compared to other scale issues.

Likewise, the [[Beast Era]] Maximals and Predacons possess roughly human-size bodies; yet when portrayed as vehicles on Cybertron ("[[Dawn of Future's Past]]", the [[Vehicon (BM)|Vehicons]] in ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]''), they feature seats and cockpits that, at their size, should be basically useless.

====Citybots====
[[Image:EarlyGalvatronTVMagazine1.jpg|right|200px|thumb|If you were ever this big in the cartoon, then we might call you a city.]]
[[City-bot|A few characters]] have "city" alternate modes. As actual real-life cities can sprawl for many miles, a [[city-bot]] that can notionally house a population of humans, ''let alone'' Transformers, should have a robot-mode that'd make [[Hojoni|Godzilla]] look like a gecko. Suffice to say, almost no fiction even ''begins'' to approximate the logical size of a true "city-bot".  In the American and Japanese cartoons, all four were shown as massive robots capable of housing many normal-sized Transformers.  Even so, it would take something along the lines of the grossly undersized depictions of [[Unicron]] (see below) even to begin to represent reasonably the colossal size of a transformed city; so in the context of Transformers, "city" is perhaps better read as "building" or "fortress".

These city-bots often have "small" robots forming vital components. Scorponok has a "human-sized" being forming his head.  [[Full-Tilt]], [[Six-Gun]], and [[Slammer]] must logically be building-sized in robot-mode to be in-scale with Trypticon and Metroplex, but, again, are not drawn as such. 

The Marvel Generation 1 comic sidestepped this issue by depicting Trypticon, Fortress Maximus and Scorponok as merely "large-standard" characters. However, Metroplex, during his one, brief appearance, was depicted as being immensely larger, crushing Quintesson attack cruisers under foot without batting an eyelid. He was still considerably smaller than a city, however, but this was justified by him merely serving as the 'transformation core' for Autobot City: Earth, not the actual city itself.

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====Planets and planetbots====
[[Image:Cybertronplanet.jpg|left|250px|thumb|If we're generous and assume Cybertron is only the size of Earth's moon, then the larger visible buildings are roughly the size of Massachusetts stood on end, and you could wedge France into that gash. (Which would probably improve both Cybertron and France.)]]
Scale when it comes to planets is so fraught it's painful. The problems of describing citybots as "cities" is a thousand times worse if [[Unicron]] is supposed to have a planet alternate mode, and [[Cybertron (planet)|Cybertron]] is in turn supposed to be of similar size. Though different stories have compared Cybertron/Primus and Unicron to drastically different real planets, the fact remains that they are ''planets'', and yet are shown in such insane scale to characters as to suggest they are the size of a ''very'' small moon (or [[Darth Vader|space station]]).

To start with, Cybertron was shown throughout ''Generation 1'' with buildings visible from space. Although this was intended to show that the planet was technological in nature, it makes little sense, as the structures would have to be the size of small ''nations'' to be visible. If the buildings were in fact supposed to be skyscrapers (or even ''2000 A.D.''-style arcologies) sized for 10 m (30') robots, Cybertron would still be less than 150km (100 miles) across.  The rather [http://www.starwars.com/databank/location/coruscant/index.html Coruscant]-like shots of Cybertron in ''[[Beast Machines (cartoon)|Beast Machines]]'' may be less distinctive or "Cybertronian", but are ''far'' more believable.  (Some people reason that the Transformers' advanced technology, along with their large size and their not needing to breathe, means that buildings actually CAN be that big.)

Unicron is a more extreme problem. Assuming no [[size changing]] occurs during his transformation (and really, what possible reason would he have to become ''smaller''?), in robot mode he would be so massive that any shot featuring a recognizable ''part'' of his body, let alone the whole thing, would be on a scale such that no normal Transformer would even be visible. [[Image:UnicronEatsGalvyMmmm.jpg|right|200px|thumb|Either Galvy is humungo, or Lithone is tiiinyyy!!!]]Scenes in the [[The Transformers: The Movie|1986 movie]] in which he directly interacts with normal Cybertronians are blatantly absurd (though totally phat-looking). Shots such as the [[Dinobot (G1)|Dinobots]] fleeing his grasping hand, a starship penetrating his eye, impaling [[Brainstorm]] on his fingernail, {{storylink|On the Edge of Extinction!}} or ''especially'' him picking up Galvatron between his fingers before swallowing him, break any concept of "planetary" scale. 

If Cybertron is the size of Earth's moon (and that's generous), and Unicron is about the size of Cybertron, his hands would be about the size of Europe and Galvatron (to the right) would be about the size of Denmark. 

There is no explanation for any of this. Just go with it.

The depiction of Unicron's scale in ''[[Armada (franchise)|Armada]]'' was (debatably) a slight improvement, in that physical interaction with normal beings was not attempted. He preferred instead to communicate with normal Transformers by possessing one of them. {{storylink|Sideways (RID)|Sideways}} Nevertheless, shots featuring [[Thrust (Armada)|Thrust]] and [[Megatron (Armada)|Megatron]] standing on his neck are still ''farcically'' out of scale.

===Oversized alternate modes===
[[Image:RattrapLOVEScheetor.jpg|right|180px|thumb|I'm tellin' ya, all da rats in Brooklyn are dis big!]]
Much less common are instances of a Transformer turning into an overscaled real-world object. Most such instances occur in the ''Beast Wars'' era.

Although the Beast Warriors are consistent day-to-day in their relative size to each other, their scale in relation to their real-world animal equivalents is more complex. While the bug characters such as [[Waspinator (BW)|Waspinator]] and [[Inferno (BW)|Inferno]] are obviously scaled-up, other characters are more subtly not quite the right size.

[[Cheetor (BW)|Cheetor]] and [[Tigatron]] are shown standing next to real members of their species, and they are both the same size as the animals in question. {{storylink|Beast Wars (Part 1)}} {{storylink|Law of the Jungle}} This makes them (and Cheetor in particular, since he's around more) the measuring sticks for the other characters. Therefore, [[Rhinox (BW)|Rhinox]] is a rather small rhinoceros, and [[Optimus Primal]] is a roughly normal (or female) gorilla. However  [[Rattrap]] is a monstrously huge rat, the size of a large dog (indeed, the writers stated that Season 1 Rattrap was 5' (1.5 m) tall<ref>[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/8227a6ca84c0238d Bob Forward gives Rattrap's height from the show bible]</ref>). Likewise [[Dinobot (BW)|Dinobot]] is considerably larger than a real velociraptor. [[Megatron (BW)|Megatron]], however, is a tiny specimen of a T. Rex. In their interactions with adult [[protohuman]]s, the Transformer characters seem between twice and three times their height. Considering our ancestors really were smaller than modern humans, this is not extremely wrong, but it deserves noting.

However, thanks to the scaling up of the bug characters, it is relatively safe to assume that the Transformers scanned only animal ''forms'' and then rescaled them to fit their own size, which is actually slightly more believable than all other series, in which the Transformers use mass shifting to make their alt modes the ''right'' size.

===Artistic license===
====Variation for characterization====
[[Image:Prime has a huge head.jpg|left|150px|thumb|With 20th Anniversary Prime and Smallest Transformers Bumblebee, you can actually recreate this scene.]]
Some scale problems are for the sake of characterization. For example, Optimus Prime is routinely shown as thoroughly gargantuan, several stories in height, and capable of cradling humans in his palm. If he's the size of a real truck, Prime in robot mode should be 8–10 m (25'–30') tall, at best. He's drawn large because he's a leader character.

Conversely, [[Bumblebee (G1)|Bumblebee]] is sometimes shown only a few feet taller than an average human, while in reality he would be 3–5 m (10'–15') tall (the Marvel comic actually states he's 15' tall {{storylink|Plight of the Bumblebee!}}). He's drawn small because he's a human-friendly character, and a junior member of the Autobots.

With fighter jet alternate modes, the [[Seeker (body-type)|Seekers]] should be among the largest everyday Transformers and would ''tower'' over their Autobot adversaries; instead, the animation depicts characters such as [[Thundercracker (G1)|Thundercracker]] and [[Wheeljack (G1)|Wheeljack]] as about the same height. Though jets are much larger than cars, they're drawn the same height so the battles appear fair. (And also to make it easier to animate; blocking a shot where characters differ radically in height is difficult.)

In a related vein, sometimes Transformers are able to enter human buildings, fitting through their doors and running up their staircases without crashing through. {{storylink|B.O.T. (episode)|B.O.T.}} A cast that couldn't enter buildings would be grossly inconvenient for telling some stories, so the animators fudge things.

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====Intentionally strange scale====
[[Image:MarvelUS-01.jpg|right|200px|thumb|One side makes you larger, one side makes you small. (Op's been noshing on the first side too much.)]]
Sometimes artists draw a character at a different size [[Authorial intent|intentionally]]. For example, on the cover of the [[The Transformers (issue)|first issue]] of [[The Transformers (Marvel Comics)|the original ''Transformers'' comics series]], Optimus Prime is extremely huge compared to the highway, bridge, and normal cars. ([[Laserbeak (G1)|Laserbeak]] is bigger than usual, too.) This is purely for dramatic effect.

Another notable example is the splash screen for the "[http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/bible/index.html World of the TRANSFORMERS]" website, which depicts [[Optimus Primal]] (in his original gorilla body) as the same size as [[Optimus Prime (G1)|G1 Optimus Prime]] and [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Movie Optimus Prime]], directly contradicting the size difference seen in "[[Optimal Situation]]" and elsewhere (except for ''[[Robot Masters (franchise)|Robot Masters]]'').

Artwork for the [[:Image:VaderVsPrime.jpg|''Star Wars'']] subline features [[:Image:Megatronvsluke.jpg|humans from another galaxy]] standing at the same height as Transformers, although this is simply because most of the figures in [[Attacktix|the tabletop game advertised by this artwork]] are the same size.

[[Image:World of the Transformers ent.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Meet the Supreme class Munky Optimus Primal.]]
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===The 2007 ''Transformers'' movie===
[[Image:Moviescale1.jpg|left|250px|thumb|Scale is absolutely not an issue in the movie. Riiight.]]
The creators of the [[Transformers (2007)|live-action movie]] took great pains to avoid out-of-scale issues. (Well, greater than previous franchises.) This is sometimes reflected in the choice of vehicle or the design of their robot mode. E.g., [[Optimus Prime (Movie)|Optimus Prime]] is an extended-hood cab in order to have more mass with which to make a taller robot mode. [[Starscream (Movie)|Starscream]]'s robot mode is nearly as wide as it is tall, with shorter, digitigrade legs, so the massive jet-former won't end up twice as tall as Optimus. In the case of [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]], his huge alternate mode simply results in a hulking, towering robot mode.

There are still minor scale issues to be found, though. For example, Optimus Prime can hold both [[Sam Witwicky|Sam]] and [[Mikaela Banes|Mikaela]] in one hand. Comparing this shot with when he picks up [[Archibald Witwicky]]'s glasses a few minutes later, it seems the glasses have lenses a foot (30cm) in diameter. This is a visual cheat so the glasses are visible to the audience. There's also debate about whether [[Frenzy (Movie)|Frenzy]]'s head could compact itself into a slim mobile phone. The [[Movie (toyline)|movie-franchise toys]], meanwhile, are only intermittently consistent (particularly since some of the secondary ones are redecos of toys from previous lines), with the largest contrast among the "primary" toys being between Deluxe Class [[Arcee (Movie)|Arcee]], a motorcycle, and Voyager Class Decepticons with helicopters as their [[Alternate mode|alternate modes]], such as [[Blackout (Movie)|Blackout]] and [[Incinerator (Movie)|Incinerator]]. However, many of the wheeled vehicles are close to 1:35 scale, although Deluxe Class [[Jazz (Movie)|Jazz]] and Classic Camaro [[Bumblebee (Movie)/toys|Bumblebee]] are ''obviously'' not the same scale. Even more oddly, the vehicle modes of Classic Camaro Bumblebee and Concept Camaro Bumblebee are not the same scale, yet their robot heads are the same size (albeit different sculpts).

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==Official scale guides ==
[[Image:Tfcartoonscaleguideic1.jpg|left|180px|thumb|Official Scale Guides]] 
[[Image:Beastwarsscalepreliminary.jpg|right|250px|thumb|Beast Wars Season 1 scale guide]]
Animators and comic book artists received official scale guides showing relative and (in some cases) absolute heights. Some of these were published in the character model guides ''[[The Ark: A Complete Compendium of Character Designs|The Ark]]'' and ''[[The Ark II — A Compendium of Japanese Character Designs|The Ark II]].'' Though they were sometimes ignored, they still give insight into the official scale of characters in Generation 1. However, even here, there are problems. Devastator in the Season One scale guide was approximately 2.5 times the height of Optimus Prime, but by Season Two he was somewhat less than twice Prime's height.

''Beast Wars'' likewise had an official scale guide, which appeared as a bonus on the DVD set of Season 2. Despite this guide, the series writers have indicated some measure of disregard for relative scale, when it suited the needs of dramatic tension.<ref>[http://builtstlouis.net/tf/manic/m-botcon.html BotCon 98 report - see "ON THE SIZES OF CHARACTERS"]</ref> Thus, Optimal Optimus is ''ungodly'' tall in his first appearance, later reduced to perhaps two times the height of the rest of the cast.

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==References==
{{reflist}}

==External links==
*[http://groups.google.com/group/alt.toys.transformers/msg/6db411e03e75a342?dmode=source Estimated "real-life" heights for several Transformers, derived from the size of their alt-modes, archived from alt.toys.transformers on groups.google.com]

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