Talk:Artfire - Revision history

Saix: /* Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? */clean up, replaced: Firebolt (Prime) → Firebolt (G1) (3)

2021-07-19T16:08:01Z

Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt?: clean up, replaced: Firebolt (Prime) → Firebolt (G1) (3)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:08, 19 July 2021
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	Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod (G1)\|Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] Nebulon and Artfire's Nightstick to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] Nightstick and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod (G1)\|Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] Nebulon and Artfire's Nightstick to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] Nightstick and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (~~Prime~~)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (G1)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::I'd wait for a more coherent translation before using a Babelfish translation as evidence that he's the same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt. For all we know, it could just mean "this toy is the same sculpt used for the recent [[Firebolt (~~Prime~~)\|Firebolt]] toy". Also, where exactly in the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/9380/37/ United comic] does the name "Spark" appear?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 17:03, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:::I'd wait for a more coherent translation before using a Babelfish translation as evidence that he's the same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt. For all we know, it could just mean "this toy is the same sculpt used for the recent [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]] toy". Also, where exactly in the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/9380/37/ United comic] does the name "Spark" appear?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 17:03, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::::facepalm Marvel Comics is where Firebolt was "Spark." And United was set in a Marvel Comics-style universe. That is all I said. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 17:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::::facepalm Marvel Comics is where Firebolt was "Spark." And United was set in a Marvel Comics-style universe. That is all I said. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 17:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)

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	::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)		::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (~~Prime~~)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	::::::Once again, why do we assume that the Movie promo Mini-Cons ([[Wedge Shape]], [[Torque Gain]], [[Noise Effect]]) are '''not''' movieverse characters due to their tampoed faction logos, but the redecoed PCC Arms Microns '''are''' automatically Prime-verse simply due to the promotion they were available with?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 05:02, 9 June 2012 (EDT)		::::::Once again, why do we assume that the Movie promo Mini-Cons ([[Wedge Shape]], [[Torque Gain]], [[Noise Effect]]) are '''not''' movieverse characters due to their tampoed faction logos, but the redecoed PCC Arms Microns '''are''' automatically Prime-verse simply due to the promotion they were available with?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 05:02, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

Abates: /* Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? */

2018-04-14T06:29:51Z

Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt?

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:29, 14 April 2018
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	== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==		== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==

	Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[~~Artfire (Headmasters)\|~~Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] Nebulon and Artfire's Nightstick to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] Nightstick and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod (G1)\|Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] Nebulon and Artfire's Nightstick to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] Nightstick and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)

Saix at 10:28, 9 April 2017

2017-04-09T10:28:04Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:28, 9 April 2017
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	== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==		== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==

	Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire (Headmasters)\|Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] ~~[[Nightstick (Ricochet)\|~~Nebulon]] and Artfire's ~~[[Nightstick (Artfire)\|~~Nightstick]] to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] [[Nightstick ~~(Cyclonus)\|Nightstick]]~~ and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire (Headmasters)\|Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] Nebulon and Artfire's Nightstick to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] Nightstick and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
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	One last thing before I'm out for dinner. This is a guy named Sparks who is an Autobot Targetmaster partner in a Marvel Comics-style portion of the Generation 1 continuity family. We default to believing he is the same guy as the previously-existing Sparks who is an Autobot Targetmaster partner in a Marvel Comics portion of the Generation 1 continuity family until we get some pretty strong evidence to the contrary. We do not have this evidence. We just have people being nitpicky for no yet-justified reason, ultimately sidestepping how we categorize and classify Transformers on this wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 17:21, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		One last thing before I'm out for dinner. This is a guy named Sparks who is an Autobot Targetmaster partner in a Marvel Comics-style portion of the Generation 1 continuity family. We default to believing he is the same guy as the previously-existing Sparks who is an Autobot Targetmaster partner in a Marvel Comics portion of the Generation 1 continuity family until we get some pretty strong evidence to the contrary. We do not have this evidence. We just have people being nitpicky for no yet-justified reason, ultimately sidestepping how we categorize and classify Transformers on this wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 17:21, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:We have Hot Rod's Firebolt being called "Sparks" in a Marvel comic. We have Hot Rod's Firebolt being called "Firebolt" for the Transformers Collection reissue of Hot Rod(imus). We have a Japanese Targetmaster partner to Artfire who is named "Sparks". Takara are pretty consistent in terms of naming their characters aside from the recent change from "established Japanese name" to "original US name". There's no precedent for "using obscure US comics-only name for established character with previously established Japanese name, which is identical to the US name". We assume by default that [[Nightstick (Cyclonus)]], [[Nightstick (Ricochet)]] and [[Nightstick (Artfire)]] are all different guys who all just happen to share the same name on one side of the pond. So the evidence we have is "here is Hot Rod's partner Firebolt, who was previously called Firebolt in Japan, and here is Artfire with a guy named Sparks, which was Hot Rod's Firebolt's name in a Marvel comic". We don't assume that [[Stripes]] is the same guy as [[Ramhorn (G1)\|Ramhorn]] because the former name was used for what eventually became the latter's part in the finished version of TF:TM. If Takara were to introduce a character named "Jawbreaker", would we assume him to be the same guy as G1 [[Overbite (G1)\|Overbite]] because that was his name in the UK comics? Also, I'd point to the photo where Rodimus Prime and Artfire are in the same image, Rodimus holds "Prime" Arms Micron Firebolt and Artfire holds his "Spark". If we were to take that photo as canon, Prime Firebolt's toy doubles as United Firebolt and coexists with Sparks.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 17:46, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:We have Hot Rod's Firebolt being called "Sparks" in a Marvel comic. We have Hot Rod's Firebolt being called "Firebolt" for the Transformers Collection reissue of Hot Rod(imus). We have a Japanese Targetmaster partner to Artfire who is named "Sparks". Takara are pretty consistent in terms of naming their characters aside from the recent change from "established Japanese name" to "original US name". There's no precedent for "using obscure US comics-only name for established character with previously established Japanese name, which is identical to the US name". We assume by default that Nightstick (Cyclonus), Nightstick (Ricochet) and Nightstick (Artfire) are all different guys who all just happen to share the same name on one side of the pond. So the evidence we have is "here is Hot Rod's partner Firebolt, who was previously called Firebolt in Japan, and here is Artfire with a guy named Sparks, which was Hot Rod's Firebolt's name in a Marvel comic". We don't assume that [[Stripes]] is the same guy as [[Ramhorn (G1)\|Ramhorn]] because the former name was used for what eventually became the latter's part in the finished version of TF:TM. If Takara were to introduce a character named "Jawbreaker", would we assume him to be the same guy as G1 [[Overbite (G1)\|Overbite]] because that was his name in the UK comics? Also, I'd point to the photo where Rodimus Prime and Artfire are in the same image, Rodimus holds "Prime" Arms Micron Firebolt and Artfire holds his "Spark". If we were to take that photo as canon, Prime Firebolt's toy doubles as United Firebolt and coexists with Sparks.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 17:46, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)		::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)

S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47: S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 moved page Talk:Artfire (Headmasters) to Talk:Artfire: To match Greejeeber.

2016-11-18T22:54:11Z

S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 moved page Talk:Artfire (Headmasters) to Talk:Artfire: To match Greejeeber.

← Older revision	Revision as of 22:54, 18 November 2016
(No difference)

Saix: replaced: Hot Rod → Hot Rod

2016-02-27T06:03:26Z

replaced: Hot Rod → Hot Rod

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:03, 27 February 2016
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			==Name==
	Where do we want to have the main article, the offical-but-incorrect "Artfire", or the unoffical-but-correctly-romanized (I think)-and-actually-means-something "Autofire". "Artfire" is more widley used, but so was "Minelba" at one point. --[[User:FortMax\|FortMax]] 22:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)		Where do we want to have the main article, the offical-but-incorrect "Artfire", or the unoffical-but-correctly-romanized (I think)-and-actually-means-something "Autofire". "Artfire" is more widley used, but so was "Minelba" at one point. --[[User:FortMax\|FortMax]] 22:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
	:Exactly how official IS Artfire, anyway? As far as I know, he's never appeared in any form outside of Japan. Unless I'm mistaken in that assumption, I'm in favor of Autofire with Artfire as a redirect. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul\|Dark T Zeratul]] 02:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)		:Exactly how official IS Artfire, anyway? As far as I know, he's never appeared in any form outside of Japan. Unless I'm mistaken in that assumption, I'm in favor of Autofire with Artfire as a redirect. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul\|Dark T Zeratul]] 02:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
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	== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==		== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==

	Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire (Headmasters)\|Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[~~Hot Rod (G1)\|~~Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] [[Nightstick (Ricochet)\|Nebulon]] and Artfire's [[Nightstick (Artfire)\|Nightstick]] to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] [[Nightstick (Cyclonus)\|Nightstick]] and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire (Headmasters)\|Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] [[Nightstick (Ricochet)\|Nebulon]] and Artfire's [[Nightstick (Artfire)\|Nightstick]] to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] [[Nightstick (Cyclonus)\|Nightstick]] and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)

Nevermore: /* Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? */

2012-06-09T09:02:42Z

Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt?

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:02, 9 June 2012
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	::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
			::::::Once again, why do we assume that the Movie promo Mini-Cons ([[Wedge Shape]], [[Torque Gain]], [[Noise Effect]]) are '''not''' movieverse characters due to their tampoed faction logos, but the redecoed PCC Arms Microns '''are''' automatically Prime-verse simply due to the promotion they were available with?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 05:02, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

Nevermore: /* Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? */

2012-04-22T22:30:33Z

Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt?

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:30, 22 April 2012
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	:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (Prime)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (Prime)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
			:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)

Sabrblade: /* Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? */

2012-04-22T17:46:56Z

Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt?

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:46, 22 April 2012
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	::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)		::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (Prime)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (Prime)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
			::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)

Nevermore: /* Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? */

2012-04-22T13:20:51Z

Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt?

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:20, 22 April 2012
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	::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)		::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (Prime)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?		:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (Prime)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)

Nevermore: /* Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? */

2012-04-22T13:20:33Z

Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt?

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:20, 22 April 2012
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	::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)		::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)
			:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (Prime)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?
			--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:08, 19 July 2021
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	Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod (G1)\|Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] Nebulon and Artfire's Nightstick to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] Nightstick and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod (G1)\|Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] Nebulon and Artfire's Nightstick to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] Nightstick and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (~~Prime~~)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (G1)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::I'd wait for a more coherent translation before using a Babelfish translation as evidence that he's the same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt. For all we know, it could just mean "this toy is the same sculpt used for the recent [[Firebolt (~~Prime~~)\|Firebolt]] toy". Also, where exactly in the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/9380/37/ United comic] does the name "Spark" appear?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 17:03, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:::I'd wait for a more coherent translation before using a Babelfish translation as evidence that he's the same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt. For all we know, it could just mean "this toy is the same sculpt used for the recent [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]] toy". Also, where exactly in the [http://www.allspark.com/content/view/9380/37/ United comic] does the name "Spark" appear?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 17:03, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::::facepalm Marvel Comics is where Firebolt was "Spark." And United was set in a Marvel Comics-style universe. That is all I said. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 17:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::::facepalm Marvel Comics is where Firebolt was "Spark." And United was set in a Marvel Comics-style universe. That is all I said. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 17:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)

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	::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)		::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (~~Prime~~)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	::::::Once again, why do we assume that the Movie promo Mini-Cons ([[Wedge Shape]], [[Torque Gain]], [[Noise Effect]]) are '''not''' movieverse characters due to their tampoed faction logos, but the redecoed PCC Arms Microns '''are''' automatically Prime-verse simply due to the promotion they were available with?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 05:02, 9 June 2012 (EDT)		::::::Once again, why do we assume that the Movie promo Mini-Cons ([[Wedge Shape]], [[Torque Gain]], [[Noise Effect]]) are '''not''' movieverse characters due to their tampoed faction logos, but the redecoed PCC Arms Microns '''are''' automatically Prime-verse simply due to the promotion they were available with?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 05:02, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:28, 9 April 2017
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	== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==		== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==

	Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire (Headmasters)\|Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] ~~[[Nightstick (Ricochet)\|~~Nebulon]] and Artfire's ~~[[Nightstick (Artfire)\|~~Nightstick]] to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] [[Nightstick ~~(Cyclonus)\|Nightstick]]~~ and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire (Headmasters)\|Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] Nebulon and Artfire's Nightstick to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] Nightstick and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
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	One last thing before I'm out for dinner. This is a guy named Sparks who is an Autobot Targetmaster partner in a Marvel Comics-style portion of the Generation 1 continuity family. We default to believing he is the same guy as the previously-existing Sparks who is an Autobot Targetmaster partner in a Marvel Comics portion of the Generation 1 continuity family until we get some pretty strong evidence to the contrary. We do not have this evidence. We just have people being nitpicky for no yet-justified reason, ultimately sidestepping how we categorize and classify Transformers on this wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 17:21, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		One last thing before I'm out for dinner. This is a guy named Sparks who is an Autobot Targetmaster partner in a Marvel Comics-style portion of the Generation 1 continuity family. We default to believing he is the same guy as the previously-existing Sparks who is an Autobot Targetmaster partner in a Marvel Comics portion of the Generation 1 continuity family until we get some pretty strong evidence to the contrary. We do not have this evidence. We just have people being nitpicky for no yet-justified reason, ultimately sidestepping how we categorize and classify Transformers on this wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 17:21, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:We have Hot Rod's Firebolt being called "Sparks" in a Marvel comic. We have Hot Rod's Firebolt being called "Firebolt" for the Transformers Collection reissue of Hot Rod(imus). We have a Japanese Targetmaster partner to Artfire who is named "Sparks". Takara are pretty consistent in terms of naming their characters aside from the recent change from "established Japanese name" to "original US name". There's no precedent for "using obscure US comics-only name for established character with previously established Japanese name, which is identical to the US name". We assume by default that [[Nightstick (Cyclonus)]], [[Nightstick (Ricochet)]] and [[Nightstick (Artfire)]] are all different guys who all just happen to share the same name on one side of the pond. So the evidence we have is "here is Hot Rod's partner Firebolt, who was previously called Firebolt in Japan, and here is Artfire with a guy named Sparks, which was Hot Rod's Firebolt's name in a Marvel comic". We don't assume that [[Stripes]] is the same guy as [[Ramhorn (G1)\|Ramhorn]] because the former name was used for what eventually became the latter's part in the finished version of TF:TM. If Takara were to introduce a character named "Jawbreaker", would we assume him to be the same guy as G1 [[Overbite (G1)\|Overbite]] because that was his name in the UK comics? Also, I'd point to the photo where Rodimus Prime and Artfire are in the same image, Rodimus holds "Prime" Arms Micron Firebolt and Artfire holds his "Spark". If we were to take that photo as canon, Prime Firebolt's toy doubles as United Firebolt and coexists with Sparks.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 17:46, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:We have Hot Rod's Firebolt being called "Sparks" in a Marvel comic. We have Hot Rod's Firebolt being called "Firebolt" for the Transformers Collection reissue of Hot Rod(imus). We have a Japanese Targetmaster partner to Artfire who is named "Sparks". Takara are pretty consistent in terms of naming their characters aside from the recent change from "established Japanese name" to "original US name". There's no precedent for "using obscure US comics-only name for established character with previously established Japanese name, which is identical to the US name". We assume by default that Nightstick (Cyclonus), Nightstick (Ricochet) and Nightstick (Artfire) are all different guys who all just happen to share the same name on one side of the pond. So the evidence we have is "here is Hot Rod's partner Firebolt, who was previously called Firebolt in Japan, and here is Artfire with a guy named Sparks, which was Hot Rod's Firebolt's name in a Marvel comic". We don't assume that [[Stripes]] is the same guy as [[Ramhorn (G1)\|Ramhorn]] because the former name was used for what eventually became the latter's part in the finished version of TF:TM. If Takara were to introduce a character named "Jawbreaker", would we assume him to be the same guy as G1 [[Overbite (G1)\|Overbite]] because that was his name in the UK comics? Also, I'd point to the photo where Rodimus Prime and Artfire are in the same image, Rodimus holds "Prime" Arms Micron Firebolt and Artfire holds his "Spark". If we were to take that photo as canon, Prime Firebolt's toy doubles as United Firebolt and coexists with Sparks.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 17:46, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::If we were to take that photo as canon, one time the Autobot and Decepticon Targetmasters all lined up to have their picture taken in a featureless abyss. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 21:13, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)		::We don't assume Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) are different. "The Autobot Ricochet's Targetmaster partner is also named 'Nightstick'... and looks ''identical''. This seems a monumental coincidence, but whether there is an actual connection—or if they're perhaps the same individual—is unknown." - [[User:Starfield\|Starﬁeld]] 16:09, 14 April 2012 (EDT)

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			==Name==
	Where do we want to have the main article, the offical-but-incorrect "Artfire", or the unoffical-but-correctly-romanized (I think)-and-actually-means-something "Autofire". "Artfire" is more widley used, but so was "Minelba" at one point. --[[User:FortMax\|FortMax]] 22:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)		Where do we want to have the main article, the offical-but-incorrect "Artfire", or the unoffical-but-correctly-romanized (I think)-and-actually-means-something "Autofire". "Artfire" is more widley used, but so was "Minelba" at one point. --[[User:FortMax\|FortMax]] 22:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
	:Exactly how official IS Artfire, anyway? As far as I know, he's never appeared in any form outside of Japan. Unless I'm mistaken in that assumption, I'm in favor of Autofire with Artfire as a redirect. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul\|Dark T Zeratul]] 02:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)		:Exactly how official IS Artfire, anyway? As far as I know, he's never appeared in any form outside of Japan. Unless I'm mistaken in that assumption, I'm in favor of Autofire with Artfire as a redirect. - [[User:Dark T Zeratul\|Dark T Zeratul]] 02:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
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	== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==		== Sparks - new character or same guy as Hot Rod's Firebolt? ==

	Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire (Headmasters)\|Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[~~Hot Rod (G1)\|~~Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] [[Nightstick (Ricochet)\|Nebulon]] and Artfire's [[Nightstick (Artfire)\|Nightstick]] to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] [[Nightstick (Cyclonus)\|Nightstick]] and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		Currently links to [[Firebolt]], which is actually a disambiguation page. I'd say until we see evidence to the contrary, we should consider Sparks, the Targetmaster partner to ''United'' [[Artfire (Headmasters)\|Artfire]], as a separate character who was named in homage to Marvel [[Brothers in Armor!!\|''Headmasters'' #4's]] name for [[Hot Rod]]'s [[Firebolt (G1)\|Firebolt]]. We consider [[Ricochet (Headmasters)\|Stepper's]] [[Nightstick (Ricochet)\|Nebulon]] and Artfire's [[Nightstick (Artfire)\|Nightstick]] to be separate characters from [[Cyclonus (G1)\|Cyclonus's]] [[Nightstick (Cyclonus)\|Nightstick]] and [[Scourge (G1)\|Scourge's]] [[Fracas]], after all. (Plus, Hot Rod's Nightstick was already named "Nightstick" for the ''[[The Transformers Collection\|Transformers Collection]]'' Hot Rodimus reissue.)--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 16:19, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		:I'm a little wary of saying Sparks and Firebolt are the same, since there's already a [[Firebolt (Prime)\|new Firebolt]] (which is also used by the Rodimus Prime toy in that one image), and the description on the website says Sparks is a "Firebolt Type". [[User:Interrobang\|—Interrobang]] 16:34, 13 April 2012 (EDT)
	::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)		::From the [http://millionhero.jp/tfg2012/artfire.html Millions Publishing site]: ''' "Sparks master warrior partner of another person. You are using the Fire Bolt Type in "Transformers Generation 2011vol.2" Special comics, art had been in possession of Fire."''' Plus United Ricochet/Artfire appeared in a Marvel Comics-style story, and that's where Firebolt's name was Spark. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] 16:40, 13 April 2012 (EDT)

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	::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
			::::::Once again, why do we assume that the Movie promo Mini-Cons ([[Wedge Shape]], [[Torque Gain]], [[Noise Effect]]) are '''not''' movieverse characters due to their tampoed faction logos, but the redecoed PCC Arms Microns '''are''' automatically Prime-verse simply due to the promotion they were available with?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 05:02, 9 June 2012 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:30, 22 April 2012
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	:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (Prime)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		:::Okay then. We have individual entries for them and note that they ''might'' be the same guy, but that any such assumption is based on speculation. But the same is true for Firebolt/Sparks! In fact, I'd say the case is ''stronger'' for Nightstick (Cyclonus) and Nightstick (Ricochet) to be the same guy. Takara have a tendency for taking obscure names from established media and turning them into new characters. See "Hauler". See "Stripes". That's how they roll. They don't take obscure alternate names and use them for characters that are better known under a different name. G1 Firebolt is better known as "Firebolt", and since Takara currently favors original US toy names, that'd be their obvious choice (they went with it for the Arms Micron that is supposed to serve as a companion to United Rodimus Prime, even though the Arms Micron was made available via a Prime promotion). "Sparks", on the other hand, is an obscure name from the UK comic, and I don't recall an instance of Takara favoring those over established toy names. (And no, "Straxus" doesn't count, he started off as a comic character and didn't get a toy until over 20 years later.) "This was that guy's alternate name in a UK comic and now Takara have a toy of that name so they must be the same guy even though there's another toy using the established name and the same sculpt" isn't a strong enough argument for me. Hey, we assume [[Wedge Shape]] to be a G1/Beast Wars character even though he was available as part of a 2007 Movie promotion, so why do we assume [[Firebolt (Prime)\|Firebolt]] is an Aligned character just because he was available as part of a ''Prime'' promotion?--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 09:20, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
	::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)		::::"Sparks" was Firebolt's name in the U.S. comic, not the UK comic. --[[User:Sabrblade\|Sabrblade]] 13:46, 22 April 2012 (EDT)
			:::::Whoops, sorry. Minor blunder that doesn't affect my point.--[[User:Nevermore\|Nevermore]] 18:30, 22 April 2012 (EDT)