Talk:Dry Run! - Revision history

Timrollpickering: /* Nightstick's death */

2020-09-15T16:54:15Z

Nightstick's death

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:54, 15 September 2020
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	::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)		::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)
	:::I deleted it as a UK reader because it assumed that there was some sort of comic code or formal censorship in the UK which there isn't and never has been. Comics like Dredd did much worse, much more graphically and were freely sold to any age group. If you look at Marvel UK's Death's Head or Dragon Claws comics both show on panel human deaths that are way more graphic than this. In the image you see Megs crush a gun. Yes we know it is a Nebulan - a human like lifeform but nethertheless we see a gun being crushed - no blood spurt, no 'Sheeaarrghghhh!', just a sound effect. It is therefore not at all graphic. It is horrific in your head but not on the page - just like an old school horror. I think the panel is interesting in that it shows a sweaty Cyclonus seeming to show genuine concern for his companion. On the grounds that it was originally stated it just didn't seem noteworthy. Takes a lot more than that to give a Brit nightmares, like Shockwaves death for example ;) [[User:Mister Jazzz\|Mister Jazz]] 13:57, 16 October 2013 (EDT)		:::I deleted it as a UK reader because it assumed that there was some sort of comic code or formal censorship in the UK which there isn't and never has been. Comics like Dredd did much worse, much more graphically and were freely sold to any age group. If you look at Marvel UK's Death's Head or Dragon Claws comics both show on panel human deaths that are way more graphic than this. In the image you see Megs crush a gun. Yes we know it is a Nebulan - a human like lifeform but nethertheless we see a gun being crushed - no blood spurt, no 'Sheeaarrghghhh!', just a sound effect. It is therefore not at all graphic. It is horrific in your head but not on the page - just like an old school horror. I think the panel is interesting in that it shows a sweaty Cyclonus seeming to show genuine concern for his companion. On the grounds that it was originally stated it just didn't seem noteworthy. Takes a lot more than that to give a Brit nightmares, like Shockwaves death for example ;) [[User:Mister Jazzz\|Mister Jazz]] 13:57, 16 October 2013 (EDT)
			::::It's also possible that Abnett was working from notes that stated the Targetmaster companions were in fact robots with duplicate minds of Nebulans rather than actual organic beings. This is how they're explained in the 1987 annual and it's easy to see how a guest writer might have been given a guide that still had this in there - other than the miniseries and Rodimus remembering Firebolt's death the nature of the Targetmaster guns is barely touched on when they appear. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] ([[User talk:Timrollpickering\|talk]]) 12:54, 15 September 2020 (EDT)

Ryan Frost at 12:58, 26 April 2015

2015-04-26T12:58:25Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:58, 26 April 2015
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	:::::Whether Scourge kills Straxus-Megatron or Straxus-Megatron kills himself, he still dies with nothing bad happening because of it but yes, Scourge doesn't know this. And I'm not seeing a second Straxus clone anywhere in the whole Marvel UK continuity that could later become Galvatron. The only Straxus-Megatron clone we know of kills himself in the Two Megatrons story. The main Galvatron in the UK continuity comes from the 1986 movie timeline and I just refuse to believe that the movie Megatron is not the real Megatron. If it were a clone, where would the real Megatron be in the movie timeline? [[User:Bass X0\|Bass X0]] ([[User talk:Bass X0\|talk]]) 17:21, 21 June 2014 (EDT)		:::::Whether Scourge kills Straxus-Megatron or Straxus-Megatron kills himself, he still dies with nothing bad happening because of it but yes, Scourge doesn't know this. And I'm not seeing a second Straxus clone anywhere in the whole Marvel UK continuity that could later become Galvatron. The only Straxus-Megatron clone we know of kills himself in the Two Megatrons story. The main Galvatron in the UK continuity comes from the 1986 movie timeline and I just refuse to believe that the movie Megatron is not the real Megatron. If it were a clone, where would the real Megatron be in the movie timeline? [[User:Bass X0\|Bass X0]] ([[User talk:Bass X0\|talk]]) 17:21, 21 June 2014 (EDT)
	::::::Two Megatrons takes place after Time Wars though and two key themes to come out of Time Wars are that the future can be changed and that Megatron is proactively taking steps to secure his future. So for all we know in the original pre Time Wars timeline the Straxus clone survived and maybe the original never even resurfaces (still lying in the Dead End?), and it was the clone who became Galvatron. Yes some may not like it but it's a legitimate interpretation of how things were presented - remember that pre-Two Megatrons everyone - Megatron, Straxus, Galvatron, the characters around them, the writer and the readers - all assumed Megatron to be the real deal and Galvatron to be his future self. Alternatively it's the replacement of the original with the clone that's part of the reason for Galvatron's memories not syncing up. It's a pity there's never been an official revisit to the UK continuity as both this and Earthforce could use some major untangling. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] ([[User talk:Timrollpickering\|talk]]) 07:38, 10 July 2014 (EDT)		::::::Two Megatrons takes place after Time Wars though and two key themes to come out of Time Wars are that the future can be changed and that Megatron is proactively taking steps to secure his future. So for all we know in the original pre Time Wars timeline the Straxus clone survived and maybe the original never even resurfaces (still lying in the Dead End?), and it was the clone who became Galvatron. Yes some may not like it but it's a legitimate interpretation of how things were presented - remember that pre-Two Megatrons everyone - Megatron, Straxus, Galvatron, the characters around them, the writer and the readers - all assumed Megatron to be the real deal and Galvatron to be his future self. Alternatively it's the replacement of the original with the clone that's part of the reason for Galvatron's memories not syncing up. It's a pity there's never been an official revisit to the UK continuity as both this and Earthforce could use some major untangling. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] ([[User talk:Timrollpickering\|talk]]) 07:38, 10 July 2014 (EDT)
			:::::::The Straxus-Megatron never becomes Galvatron, in ANY continuity. The point of divergence between the various realities is Target:2006 - when Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge make that initial trip, that's the point at which their Movie-era future becomes an alternate reality. Galvatron I is just a future version of Megatron from a timeline in which T:2006 never happenned. Remember in T:2006 when the future Decepticons are surprised at Ultra Magnus' appearance "you shouldn't be here, now" or words to that effect? That's the first sign that the future Deceps are changing 'their' past - without their arrival, Magnus would still have been on Cybertron, getting ready for Operation Volcano. Straxus takes over Megs in Resureection, which is set after T:2006 in a present that has been altered by the actions of all the time travel. This never happens in the original timeline, because the whole 'Resurrection' story arc comes about because Prime wants to fake his own death in the wake of the Autobots' bad berformance in T:2006. Therefore, there is no possible future in which Straxus-Megatron ever becomes Galvatron. [[User:Ryan Frost\|Ryan Frost]] ([[User talk:Ryan Frost\|talk]]) 08:58, 26 April 2015 (EDT)

	== Nightstick's death ==		== Nightstick's death ==

Timrollpickering at 11:38, 10 July 2014

2014-07-10T11:38:07Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:38, 10 July 2014
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	::::I think the point to remember is that Scourge isn't an expert in time-travel mechanics, causality theory or anything like that. He's not saying "If I kill Megatron I will cease to exist". He's just wondering aloud. He even says that he can't be sure, but he can't take the risk. So this isn't the author speaking through Scourge. It is the character himself wondering what will happen, and deciding it's not worth the risk. [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:45, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		::::I think the point to remember is that Scourge isn't an expert in time-travel mechanics, causality theory or anything like that. He's not saying "If I kill Megatron I will cease to exist". He's just wondering aloud. He even says that he can't be sure, but he can't take the risk. So this isn't the author speaking through Scourge. It is the character himself wondering what will happen, and deciding it's not worth the risk. [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:45, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
	:::::Whether Scourge kills Straxus-Megatron or Straxus-Megatron kills himself, he still dies with nothing bad happening because of it but yes, Scourge doesn't know this. And I'm not seeing a second Straxus clone anywhere in the whole Marvel UK continuity that could later become Galvatron. The only Straxus-Megatron clone we know of kills himself in the Two Megatrons story. The main Galvatron in the UK continuity comes from the 1986 movie timeline and I just refuse to believe that the movie Megatron is not the real Megatron. If it were a clone, where would the real Megatron be in the movie timeline? [[User:Bass X0\|Bass X0]] ([[User talk:Bass X0\|talk]]) 17:21, 21 June 2014 (EDT)		:::::Whether Scourge kills Straxus-Megatron or Straxus-Megatron kills himself, he still dies with nothing bad happening because of it but yes, Scourge doesn't know this. And I'm not seeing a second Straxus clone anywhere in the whole Marvel UK continuity that could later become Galvatron. The only Straxus-Megatron clone we know of kills himself in the Two Megatrons story. The main Galvatron in the UK continuity comes from the 1986 movie timeline and I just refuse to believe that the movie Megatron is not the real Megatron. If it were a clone, where would the real Megatron be in the movie timeline? [[User:Bass X0\|Bass X0]] ([[User talk:Bass X0\|talk]]) 17:21, 21 June 2014 (EDT)
			::::::Two Megatrons takes place after Time Wars though and two key themes to come out of Time Wars are that the future can be changed and that Megatron is proactively taking steps to secure his future. So for all we know in the original pre Time Wars timeline the Straxus clone survived and maybe the original never even resurfaces (still lying in the Dead End?), and it was the clone who became Galvatron. Yes some may not like it but it's a legitimate interpretation of how things were presented - remember that pre-Two Megatrons everyone - Megatron, Straxus, Galvatron, the characters around them, the writer and the readers - all assumed Megatron to be the real deal and Galvatron to be his future self. Alternatively it's the replacement of the original with the clone that's part of the reason for Galvatron's memories not syncing up. It's a pity there's never been an official revisit to the UK continuity as both this and Earthforce could use some major untangling. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] ([[User talk:Timrollpickering\|talk]]) 07:38, 10 July 2014 (EDT)

	== Nightstick's death ==		== Nightstick's death ==

Bass X0 at 21:21, 21 June 2014

2014-06-21T21:21:32Z

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	:::Ack, Straxatron stuff makes my brain ache. I've seen diagrams that try to make sense of it all, but there's a lot of supposition about future timelines...the divergent future Rodimus returns to after Time Wars doesn't help any, adding another possible Galvatron (Straxatron in the future?) to the mix. Best not to delve too deeply into it. --[[User:Emvee\|Emvee]] 14:09, 11 April 2011 (EDT)		:::Ack, Straxatron stuff makes my brain ache. I've seen diagrams that try to make sense of it all, but there's a lot of supposition about future timelines...the divergent future Rodimus returns to after Time Wars doesn't help any, adding another possible Galvatron (Straxatron in the future?) to the mix. Best not to delve too deeply into it. --[[User:Emvee\|Emvee]] 14:09, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
	::::I think the point to remember is that Scourge isn't an expert in time-travel mechanics, causality theory or anything like that. He's not saying "If I kill Megatron I will cease to exist". He's just wondering aloud. He even says that he can't be sure, but he can't take the risk. So this isn't the author speaking through Scourge. It is the character himself wondering what will happen, and deciding it's not worth the risk. [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:45, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		::::I think the point to remember is that Scourge isn't an expert in time-travel mechanics, causality theory or anything like that. He's not saying "If I kill Megatron I will cease to exist". He's just wondering aloud. He even says that he can't be sure, but he can't take the risk. So this isn't the author speaking through Scourge. It is the character himself wondering what will happen, and deciding it's not worth the risk. [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:45, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
			:::::Whether Scourge kills Straxus-Megatron or Straxus-Megatron kills himself, he still dies with nothing bad happening because of it but yes, Scourge doesn't know this. And I'm not seeing a second Straxus clone anywhere in the whole Marvel UK continuity that could later become Galvatron. The only Straxus-Megatron clone we know of kills himself in the Two Megatrons story. The main Galvatron in the UK continuity comes from the 1986 movie timeline and I just refuse to believe that the movie Megatron is not the real Megatron. If it were a clone, where would the real Megatron be in the movie timeline? [[User:Bass X0\|Bass X0]] ([[User talk:Bass X0\|talk]]) 17:21, 21 June 2014 (EDT)


	== Nightstick's death ==		== Nightstick's death ==

Mister Jazzz: /* Nightstick's death */

2013-10-16T17:57:12Z

Nightstick's death

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:57, 16 October 2013
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	:I agree that Nightstick's death is not typical of some kind of standard UK "kids' comic" indifference to people being guesomely murdered on-panel, but I also wouldn't have been especially shocked by a comparable death in the US. The crux of the matter, as you rightly point out, is that it's a shot of a robot crushing a gun, and nobody who isn't paying close attention is going to get the implications. All that being said, I don't know whether I think it's worth a note anyway. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 16:58, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		:I agree that Nightstick's death is not typical of some kind of standard UK "kids' comic" indifference to people being guesomely murdered on-panel, but I also wouldn't have been especially shocked by a comparable death in the US. The crux of the matter, as you rightly point out, is that it's a shot of a robot crushing a gun, and nobody who isn't paying close attention is going to get the implications. All that being said, I don't know whether I think it's worth a note anyway. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 16:58, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
	::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)		::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)
			:::I deleted it as a UK reader because it assumed that there was some sort of comic code or formal censorship in the UK which there isn't and never has been. Comics like Dredd did much worse, much more graphically and were freely sold to any age group. If you look at Marvel UK's Death's Head or Dragon Claws comics both show on panel human deaths that are way more graphic than this. In the image you see Megs crush a gun. Yes we know it is a Nebulan - a human like lifeform but nethertheless we see a gun being crushed - no blood spurt, no 'Sheeaarrghghhh!', just a sound effect. It is therefore not at all graphic. It is horrific in your head but not on the page - just like an old school horror. I think the panel is interesting in that it shows a sweaty Cyclonus seeming to show genuine concern for his companion. On the grounds that it was originally stated it just didn't seem noteworthy. Takes a lot more than that to give a Brit nightmares, like Shockwaves death for example ;) [[User:Mister Jazzz\|Mister Jazz]] 13:57, 16 October 2013 (EDT)

LiamK: /* Nightstick's death */

2013-10-16T15:53:18Z

Nightstick's death

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:53, 16 October 2013
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	So, is it worth noting, or am I overthinking it way too much? [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:59, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		So, is it worth noting, or am I overthinking it way too much? [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:59, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
	:I agree that Nightstick's death is not typical of some kind of standard UK "kids' comic" indifference to people being guesomely murdered on-panel, but I also wouldn't have been especially shocked by a comparable death in the US. The crux of the matter, as you rightly point out, is that it's a shot of a robot crushing a gun, and nobody who isn't paying close attention is going to get the implications. All that being said, I don't know whether I think it's worth a note anyway. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 16:58, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		:I agree that Nightstick's death is not typical of some kind of standard UK "kids' comic" indifference to people being guesomely murdered on-panel, but I also wouldn't have been especially shocked by a comparable death in the US. The crux of the matter, as you rightly point out, is that it's a shot of a robot crushing a gun, and nobody who isn't paying close attention is going to get the implications. All that being said, I don't know whether I think it's worth a note anyway. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 16:58, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
			::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)

LV at 20:58, 13 October 2013

2013-10-13T20:58:31Z

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	So, is it worth noting, or am I overthinking it way too much? [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:59, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		So, is it worth noting, or am I overthinking it way too much? [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:59, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
			:I agree that Nightstick's death is not typical of some kind of standard UK "kids' comic" indifference to people being guesomely murdered on-panel, but I also wouldn't have been especially shocked by a comparable death in the US. The crux of the matter, as you rightly point out, is that it's a shot of a robot crushing a gun, and nobody who isn't paying close attention is going to get the implications. All that being said, I don't know whether I think it's worth a note anyway. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 16:58, 13 October 2013 (EDT)

LiamK: /* Nightstick's death */ new section

2013-10-13T19:59:24Z

Nightstick's death: new section

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:59, 13 October 2013
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	:::Ack, Straxatron stuff makes my brain ache. I've seen diagrams that try to make sense of it all, but there's a lot of supposition about future timelines...the divergent future Rodimus returns to after Time Wars doesn't help any, adding another possible Galvatron (Straxatron in the future?) to the mix. Best not to delve too deeply into it. --[[User:Emvee\|Emvee]] 14:09, 11 April 2011 (EDT)		:::Ack, Straxatron stuff makes my brain ache. I've seen diagrams that try to make sense of it all, but there's a lot of supposition about future timelines...the divergent future Rodimus returns to after Time Wars doesn't help any, adding another possible Galvatron (Straxatron in the future?) to the mix. Best not to delve too deeply into it. --[[User:Emvee\|Emvee]] 14:09, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
	::::I think the point to remember is that Scourge isn't an expert in time-travel mechanics, causality theory or anything like that. He's not saying "If I kill Megatron I will cease to exist". He's just wondering aloud. He even says that he can't be sure, but he can't take the risk. So this isn't the author speaking through Scourge. It is the character himself wondering what will happen, and deciding it's not worth the risk. [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:45, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		::::I think the point to remember is that Scourge isn't an expert in time-travel mechanics, causality theory or anything like that. He's not saying "If I kill Megatron I will cease to exist". He's just wondering aloud. He even says that he can't be sure, but he can't take the risk. So this isn't the author speaking through Scourge. It is the character himself wondering what will happen, and deciding it's not worth the risk. [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:45, 13 October 2013 (EDT)

			== Nightstick's death ==

			Sorry, putting this here rather than having an edit war. I mentioned that Nightstick's death is pretty graphic, and one of the responses was "That was nothing, comics were never regulated or censored in the UK like they were in the US, hence Judge Dredd". While that is true, I don't think it applies here. I'm sure Transformers in the UK, like in the US, got away with a lot of things regular comics didn't because they involved giant robots. I don't think that other Marvel UK comics would have characters beging beheaded "on-camera", so to speak. I think that Nightstick's death is actually something pretty horrific, even for a UK comic. A human (well, humanoid) gets crushed to death by a Transformer. The UK comic tended to avoid human deaths like the US one, and certainly I can't think of anything comparable to this. I'm fairly certain the only reason they got away with it was because Nightstick was in gun form at the time and the censors probably missed that he was also a flesh and blood being.

			So, is it worth noting, or am I overthinking it way too much? [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:59, 13 October 2013 (EDT)

LiamK at 19:45, 13 October 2013

2013-10-13T19:45:24Z

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	::Except that there's the possibility that ''his'' Galvatron was created from the Straxus clone. Alternatively Scourge (and for that matter Galvatron in Target 2006) may simply not have a clear understanding of time travel theory and so genuinely don't know for sure what might happen. Even Galvatron II worried that killing Megatron would cancel him out, despite being well past the point of divergence. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] 13:50, 11 April 2011 (EDT)		::Except that there's the possibility that ''his'' Galvatron was created from the Straxus clone. Alternatively Scourge (and for that matter Galvatron in Target 2006) may simply not have a clear understanding of time travel theory and so genuinely don't know for sure what might happen. Even Galvatron II worried that killing Megatron would cancel him out, despite being well past the point of divergence. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] 13:50, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
	:::Ack, Straxatron stuff makes my brain ache. I've seen diagrams that try to make sense of it all, but there's a lot of supposition about future timelines...the divergent future Rodimus returns to after Time Wars doesn't help any, adding another possible Galvatron (Straxatron in the future?) to the mix. Best not to delve too deeply into it. --[[User:Emvee\|Emvee]] 14:09, 11 April 2011 (EDT)		:::Ack, Straxatron stuff makes my brain ache. I've seen diagrams that try to make sense of it all, but there's a lot of supposition about future timelines...the divergent future Rodimus returns to after Time Wars doesn't help any, adding another possible Galvatron (Straxatron in the future?) to the mix. Best not to delve too deeply into it. --[[User:Emvee\|Emvee]] 14:09, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
			::::I think the point to remember is that Scourge isn't an expert in time-travel mechanics, causality theory or anything like that. He's not saying "If I kill Megatron I will cease to exist". He's just wondering aloud. He even says that he can't be sure, but he can't take the risk. So this isn't the author speaking through Scourge. It is the character himself wondering what will happen, and deciding it's not worth the risk. [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:45, 13 October 2013 (EDT)

Emvee at 18:09, 11 April 2011

2011-04-11T18:09:05Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:09, 11 April 2011
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	::Except that there's the possibility that ''his'' Galvatron was created from the Straxus clone. Alternatively Scourge (and for that matter Galvatron in Target 2006) may simply not have a clear understanding of time travel theory and so genuinely don't know for sure what might happen. Even Galvatron II worried that killing Megatron would cancel him out, despite being well past the point of divergence. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] 13:50, 11 April 2011 (EDT)		::Except that there's the possibility that ''his'' Galvatron was created from the Straxus clone. Alternatively Scourge (and for that matter Galvatron in Target 2006) may simply not have a clear understanding of time travel theory and so genuinely don't know for sure what might happen. Even Galvatron II worried that killing Megatron would cancel him out, despite being well past the point of divergence. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] 13:50, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
			:::Ack, Straxatron stuff makes my brain ache. I've seen diagrams that try to make sense of it all, but there's a lot of supposition about future timelines...the divergent future Rodimus returns to after Time Wars doesn't help any, adding another possible Galvatron (Straxatron in the future?) to the mix. Best not to delve too deeply into it. --[[User:Emvee\|Emvee]] 14:09, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

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	::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)		::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)
	:::I deleted it as a UK reader because it assumed that there was some sort of comic code or formal censorship in the UK which there isn't and never has been. Comics like Dredd did much worse, much more graphically and were freely sold to any age group. If you look at Marvel UK's Death's Head or Dragon Claws comics both show on panel human deaths that are way more graphic than this. In the image you see Megs crush a gun. Yes we know it is a Nebulan - a human like lifeform but nethertheless we see a gun being crushed - no blood spurt, no 'Sheeaarrghghhh!', just a sound effect. It is therefore not at all graphic. It is horrific in your head but not on the page - just like an old school horror. I think the panel is interesting in that it shows a sweaty Cyclonus seeming to show genuine concern for his companion. On the grounds that it was originally stated it just didn't seem noteworthy. Takes a lot more than that to give a Brit nightmares, like Shockwaves death for example ;) [[User:Mister Jazzz\|Mister Jazz]] 13:57, 16 October 2013 (EDT)		:::I deleted it as a UK reader because it assumed that there was some sort of comic code or formal censorship in the UK which there isn't and never has been. Comics like Dredd did much worse, much more graphically and were freely sold to any age group. If you look at Marvel UK's Death's Head or Dragon Claws comics both show on panel human deaths that are way more graphic than this. In the image you see Megs crush a gun. Yes we know it is a Nebulan - a human like lifeform but nethertheless we see a gun being crushed - no blood spurt, no 'Sheeaarrghghhh!', just a sound effect. It is therefore not at all graphic. It is horrific in your head but not on the page - just like an old school horror. I think the panel is interesting in that it shows a sweaty Cyclonus seeming to show genuine concern for his companion. On the grounds that it was originally stated it just didn't seem noteworthy. Takes a lot more than that to give a Brit nightmares, like Shockwaves death for example ;) [[User:Mister Jazzz\|Mister Jazz]] 13:57, 16 October 2013 (EDT)
			::::It's also possible that Abnett was working from notes that stated the Targetmaster companions were in fact robots with duplicate minds of Nebulans rather than actual organic beings. This is how they're explained in the 1987 annual and it's easy to see how a guest writer might have been given a guide that still had this in there - other than the miniseries and Rodimus remembering Firebolt's death the nature of the Targetmaster guns is barely touched on when they appear. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] ([[User talk:Timrollpickering\|talk]]) 12:54, 15 September 2020 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:57, 16 October 2013
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	:I agree that Nightstick's death is not typical of some kind of standard UK "kids' comic" indifference to people being guesomely murdered on-panel, but I also wouldn't have been especially shocked by a comparable death in the US. The crux of the matter, as you rightly point out, is that it's a shot of a robot crushing a gun, and nobody who isn't paying close attention is going to get the implications. All that being said, I don't know whether I think it's worth a note anyway. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 16:58, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		:I agree that Nightstick's death is not typical of some kind of standard UK "kids' comic" indifference to people being guesomely murdered on-panel, but I also wouldn't have been especially shocked by a comparable death in the US. The crux of the matter, as you rightly point out, is that it's a shot of a robot crushing a gun, and nobody who isn't paying close attention is going to get the implications. All that being said, I don't know whether I think it's worth a note anyway. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 16:58, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
	::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)		::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)
			:::I deleted it as a UK reader because it assumed that there was some sort of comic code or formal censorship in the UK which there isn't and never has been. Comics like Dredd did much worse, much more graphically and were freely sold to any age group. If you look at Marvel UK's Death's Head or Dragon Claws comics both show on panel human deaths that are way more graphic than this. In the image you see Megs crush a gun. Yes we know it is a Nebulan - a human like lifeform but nethertheless we see a gun being crushed - no blood spurt, no 'Sheeaarrghghhh!', just a sound effect. It is therefore not at all graphic. It is horrific in your head but not on the page - just like an old school horror. I think the panel is interesting in that it shows a sweaty Cyclonus seeming to show genuine concern for his companion. On the grounds that it was originally stated it just didn't seem noteworthy. Takes a lot more than that to give a Brit nightmares, like Shockwaves death for example ;) [[User:Mister Jazzz\|Mister Jazz]] 13:57, 16 October 2013 (EDT)

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:53, 16 October 2013
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	So, is it worth noting, or am I overthinking it way too much? [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:59, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		So, is it worth noting, or am I overthinking it way too much? [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:59, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
	:I agree that Nightstick's death is not typical of some kind of standard UK "kids' comic" indifference to people being guesomely murdered on-panel, but I also wouldn't have been especially shocked by a comparable death in the US. The crux of the matter, as you rightly point out, is that it's a shot of a robot crushing a gun, and nobody who isn't paying close attention is going to get the implications. All that being said, I don't know whether I think it's worth a note anyway. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 16:58, 13 October 2013 (EDT)		:I agree that Nightstick's death is not typical of some kind of standard UK "kids' comic" indifference to people being guesomely murdered on-panel, but I also wouldn't have been especially shocked by a comparable death in the US. The crux of the matter, as you rightly point out, is that it's a shot of a robot crushing a gun, and nobody who isn't paying close attention is going to get the implications. All that being said, I don't know whether I think it's worth a note anyway. -[[User:LV\|LV]] 16:58, 13 October 2013 (EDT)
			::Fair point. I suppose a way of seeing whether it's noteworthy or not is... are there any other "on-screen" deaths of a human(oid) in the original Marvel run? Outside of, say, Highbrow has been killed therefore Gort has been killed.[[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 11:53, 16 October 2013 (EDT)

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	::Except that there's the possibility that ''his'' Galvatron was created from the Straxus clone. Alternatively Scourge (and for that matter Galvatron in Target 2006) may simply not have a clear understanding of time travel theory and so genuinely don't know for sure what might happen. Even Galvatron II worried that killing Megatron would cancel him out, despite being well past the point of divergence. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] 13:50, 11 April 2011 (EDT)		::Except that there's the possibility that ''his'' Galvatron was created from the Straxus clone. Alternatively Scourge (and for that matter Galvatron in Target 2006) may simply not have a clear understanding of time travel theory and so genuinely don't know for sure what might happen. Even Galvatron II worried that killing Megatron would cancel him out, despite being well past the point of divergence. [[User:Timrollpickering\|Timrollpickering]] 13:50, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
	:::Ack, Straxatron stuff makes my brain ache. I've seen diagrams that try to make sense of it all, but there's a lot of supposition about future timelines...the divergent future Rodimus returns to after Time Wars doesn't help any, adding another possible Galvatron (Straxatron in the future?) to the mix. Best not to delve too deeply into it. --[[User:Emvee\|Emvee]] 14:09, 11 April 2011 (EDT)		:::Ack, Straxatron stuff makes my brain ache. I've seen diagrams that try to make sense of it all, but there's a lot of supposition about future timelines...the divergent future Rodimus returns to after Time Wars doesn't help any, adding another possible Galvatron (Straxatron in the future?) to the mix. Best not to delve too deeply into it. --[[User:Emvee\|Emvee]] 14:09, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
			::::I think the point to remember is that Scourge isn't an expert in time-travel mechanics, causality theory or anything like that. He's not saying "If I kill Megatron I will cease to exist". He's just wondering aloud. He even says that he can't be sure, but he can't take the risk. So this isn't the author speaking through Scourge. It is the character himself wondering what will happen, and deciding it's not worth the risk. [[User:LiamK\|LiamK]] 15:45, 13 October 2013 (EDT)