Talk:Roller (IDW) - Revision history

Magaroja: /* Wandering Roller */

2016-12-08T21:47:07Z

Wandering Roller

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:47, 8 December 2016
Line 37:		Line 37:
	:::::::::I'll put it like this - prior to the release of the final chapter, there was zero question that Wandering Roller was a version of IDW Roller, right? He looked like IDW Roller, had a take on IDW Roller's backstory, etc. Nobody would have argued "gee, can we really be sure?" The revelation that he is also G1 Roller does not somehow unwrite/invalidate all those things that made him super-obviously a version of IDW Roller. If, to create a wild hypothetical, a new chapter of the ''Legends'' manga declared that JG1 Windblade was actually rebuilt by the Zamojin from [[Lancer]], would we strip the ''Legends'' fiction and toy from [[Windblade (G1)]], leaving just a note saying "we thought this character was Windblade, but no, it was actually Lancer!"? [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 13:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::I'll put it like this - prior to the release of the final chapter, there was zero question that Wandering Roller was a version of IDW Roller, right? He looked like IDW Roller, had a take on IDW Roller's backstory, etc. Nobody would have argued "gee, can we really be sure?" The revelation that he is also G1 Roller does not somehow unwrite/invalidate all those things that made him super-obviously a version of IDW Roller. If, to create a wild hypothetical, a new chapter of the ''Legends'' manga declared that JG1 Windblade was actually rebuilt by the Zamojin from [[Lancer]], would we strip the ''Legends'' fiction and toy from [[Windblade (G1)]], leaving just a note saying "we thought this character was Windblade, but no, it was actually Lancer!"? [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 13:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::I would hope that we would do exactly that, because that's what the fiction said. All that buildup is just red herrings. You wouldn't write up a mystery novel and say that character one was the villain because all the clues pointed to him/her if the last chapter said "nope, it's actually character 2 who killed everybody", would you? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 13:54, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::I would hope that we would do exactly that, because that's what the fiction said. All that buildup is just red herrings. You wouldn't write up a mystery novel and say that character one was the villain because all the clues pointed to him/her if the last chapter said "nope, it's actually character 2 who killed everybody", would you? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 13:54, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::(sorry for the late reply) Yes, because TakaraTomy's treatment of female TFs is wretched, and if they reverse turn on a character I care about, I'm all for it. [[User:Magaroja\|Magaroja]] ([[User talk:Magaroja\|talk]]) 16:46, 8 December 2016 (EST)
	:::::::::::I... I don't even know how to respond to the notion that hiding information like that would be a good idea. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 14:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::::I... I don't even know how to respond to the notion that hiding information like that would be a good idea. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 14:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::::And I don't even know how you could disagree. The fiction says what it says. If it says that what looks like one character is actually another, then those appearances belong on the second character's page, not the first. Nothing would be hidden, as you said before that a note would be placed that "we thought this was this character, but it was really this one. See their page for details."--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 14:38, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::::And I don't even know how you could disagree. The fiction says what it says. If it says that what looks like one character is actually another, then those appearances belong on the second character's page, not the first. Nothing would be hidden, as you said before that a note would be placed that "we thought this was this character, but it was really this one. See their page for details."--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 14:38, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::::::(sorry for the late reply) Yes, because TakaraTomy's treatment of female TFs is wretched, and if they reverse turn on a character I care about, I'm all for it. [[User:Magaroja\|Magaroja]] ([[User talk:Magaroja\|talk]]) 16:46, 8 December 2016 (EST)
	:And let's not oversell "all those things" that made him "super-obviously" IDW Roller. It's really just TWO things: (1) WRoller apparently looked like IDW Roller before Unicron found him, and (2) he had a "vengeful spirit" because he was "abandoned by his comrades". Well, the final chapter completely explained away (2), providing a different scenario where WRoller was abandoned. He was talking about something else, not MTMTE #36 or anything like it. Which leaves (1). Just looking like somebody CANNOT be enough to say they're the same person in TF fiction. And for a comparable scenario, [[Nightbird (G1)]] is still a separate page from [[Nightracer (G2)]], even though Fun Pub used a place-holder image of 'Bird in ''A Flash Forward'' before introducing 'Racer.		:And let's not oversell "all those things" that made him "super-obviously" IDW Roller. It's really just TWO things: (1) WRoller apparently looked like IDW Roller before Unicron found him, and (2) he had a "vengeful spirit" because he was "abandoned by his comrades". Well, the final chapter completely explained away (2), providing a different scenario where WRoller was abandoned. He was talking about something else, not MTMTE #36 or anything like it. Which leaves (1). Just looking like somebody CANNOT be enough to say they're the same person in TF fiction. And for a comparable scenario, [[Nightbird (G1)]] is still a separate page from [[Nightracer (G2)]], even though Fun Pub used a place-holder image of 'Bird in ''A Flash Forward'' before introducing 'Racer.
	:There were reasons to think WRoller was the UW version of IDW Roller. But then the story went a different direction and explained away those reasons. What's left isn't enough to support the WRoller = IDW Roller idea. --[[User:Xaaron\|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron\|talk]]) 14:25, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:There were reasons to think WRoller was the UW version of IDW Roller. But then the story went a different direction and explained away those reasons. What's left isn't enough to support the WRoller = IDW Roller idea. --[[User:Xaaron\|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron\|talk]]) 14:25, 28 November 2016 (EST)

Magaroja: /* Wandering Roller */

2016-12-08T21:46:37Z

Wandering Roller

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:46, 8 December 2016
Line 37:		Line 37:
	:::::::::I'll put it like this - prior to the release of the final chapter, there was zero question that Wandering Roller was a version of IDW Roller, right? He looked like IDW Roller, had a take on IDW Roller's backstory, etc. Nobody would have argued "gee, can we really be sure?" The revelation that he is also G1 Roller does not somehow unwrite/invalidate all those things that made him super-obviously a version of IDW Roller. If, to create a wild hypothetical, a new chapter of the ''Legends'' manga declared that JG1 Windblade was actually rebuilt by the Zamojin from [[Lancer]], would we strip the ''Legends'' fiction and toy from [[Windblade (G1)]], leaving just a note saying "we thought this character was Windblade, but no, it was actually Lancer!"? [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 13:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::I'll put it like this - prior to the release of the final chapter, there was zero question that Wandering Roller was a version of IDW Roller, right? He looked like IDW Roller, had a take on IDW Roller's backstory, etc. Nobody would have argued "gee, can we really be sure?" The revelation that he is also G1 Roller does not somehow unwrite/invalidate all those things that made him super-obviously a version of IDW Roller. If, to create a wild hypothetical, a new chapter of the ''Legends'' manga declared that JG1 Windblade was actually rebuilt by the Zamojin from [[Lancer]], would we strip the ''Legends'' fiction and toy from [[Windblade (G1)]], leaving just a note saying "we thought this character was Windblade, but no, it was actually Lancer!"? [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 13:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::I would hope that we would do exactly that, because that's what the fiction said. All that buildup is just red herrings. You wouldn't write up a mystery novel and say that character one was the villain because all the clues pointed to him/her if the last chapter said "nope, it's actually character 2 who killed everybody", would you? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 13:54, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::I would hope that we would do exactly that, because that's what the fiction said. All that buildup is just red herrings. You wouldn't write up a mystery novel and say that character one was the villain because all the clues pointed to him/her if the last chapter said "nope, it's actually character 2 who killed everybody", would you? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 13:54, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::::::(sorry for the late reply) Yes, because TakaraTomy's treatment of female TFs is wretched, and if they reverse turn on a character I care about, I'm all for it. [[User:Magaroja\|Magaroja]] ([[User talk:Magaroja\|talk]]) 16:46, 8 December 2016 (EST)
	:::::::::::I... I don't even know how to respond to the notion that hiding information like that would be a good idea. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 14:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::::I... I don't even know how to respond to the notion that hiding information like that would be a good idea. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 14:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::::And I don't even know how you could disagree. The fiction says what it says. If it says that what looks like one character is actually another, then those appearances belong on the second character's page, not the first. Nothing would be hidden, as you said before that a note would be placed that "we thought this was this character, but it was really this one. See their page for details."--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 14:38, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::::And I don't even know how you could disagree. The fiction says what it says. If it says that what looks like one character is actually another, then those appearances belong on the second character's page, not the first. Nothing would be hidden, as you said before that a note would be placed that "we thought this was this character, but it was really this one. See their page for details."--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 14:38, 28 November 2016 (EST)

Broadside: /* Wandering Roller */

2016-11-28T23:49:39Z

Wandering Roller

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:49, 28 November 2016
Line 56:		Line 56:
	::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:::::::::::I'm sure I'm not going to win this, so this will be my last post in this topic. But I struggle to see what this proposed overall IDW Roller would be. What makes a character "IDW Roller"? I was under the impression that this page was about a G1 character named Roller who was not the "beep boop drone" and that any G1 character that was said drone would be on the other page. Everything else that anyone has mentioned seems no more than homages and red herrings designed to make you think that WR was the IDWverse Roller and not the drone, but not actually indications of identity. All that we are actually told about WR's identity is that he IS the drone.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 18:44, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::::I'm sure I'm not going to win this, so this will be my last post in this topic. But I struggle to see what this proposed overall IDW Roller would be. What makes a character "IDW Roller"? I was under the impression that this page was about a G1 character named Roller who was not the "beep boop drone" and that any G1 character that was said drone would be on the other page. Everything else that anyone has mentioned seems no more than homages and red herrings designed to make you think that WR was the IDWverse Roller and not the drone, but not actually indications of identity. All that we are actually told about WR's identity is that he IS the drone.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 18:44, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::::::::IDW Roller is "an orange and black guy who is Optimus Prime's friend". G1 Roller is "a silver six wheeled vehicle who lives in Optimus Prime's trailer". JG1 Roller is both. Being "not the drone guy" is not a required component of being IDW Roller; we don't define character archetypes by what they aren't. (And by default, JG1 Roller is not "the drone", because he's been explicitly presented as a sentient individual!) --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 18:49, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

Khajidha: /* Wandering Roller */

2016-11-28T23:44:12Z

Wandering Roller

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:44, 28 November 2016
Line 55:		Line 55:
	:::::::::And did this material say "This Roller is not the beep boop guy"? Or did you just assume it? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 17:15, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::And did this material say "This Roller is not the beep boop guy"? Or did you just assume it? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 17:15, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			:::::::::::I'm sure I'm not going to win this, so this will be my last post in this topic. But I struggle to see what this proposed overall IDW Roller would be. What makes a character "IDW Roller"? I was under the impression that this page was about a G1 character named Roller who was not the "beep boop drone" and that any G1 character that was said drone would be on the other page. Everything else that anyone has mentioned seems no more than homages and red herrings designed to make you think that WR was the IDWverse Roller and not the drone, but not actually indications of identity. All that we are actually told about WR's identity is that he IS the drone.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 18:44, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

Broadside: /* Wandering Roller */

2016-11-28T22:17:55Z

Wandering Roller

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:17, 28 November 2016
Line 54:		Line 54:
	::::::::The Tarn thing isn't ''really'' the same at all. The comic didn't say "Tarn is Roller", then throw out a surprise reveal that it was somebody different. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 17:11, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::The Tarn thing isn't ''really'' the same at all. The comic didn't say "Tarn is Roller", then throw out a surprise reveal that it was somebody different. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 17:11, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:::::::::And did this material say "This Roller is not the beep boop guy"? Or did you just assume it? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 17:15, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::And did this material say "This Roller is not the beep boop guy"? Or did you just assume it? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 17:15, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

Khajidha: /* Wandering Roller */

2016-11-28T22:15:37Z

Wandering Roller

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:15, 28 November 2016
Line 53:		Line 53:
	:::::::I'm hung up on the fact that he is said to be the "beep-boop" guy. The character on this page is said to not be the "beep-boop" guy. Therefor, this doesn't belong as anything more than a note that "this toy was decoed like this guy and people thought he was this guy, but the story said otherwise". Xaaron's point about Tarn seems like a relevant parallel to me. People thought he was, story said otherwise. Note, and move on.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 16:56, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::I'm hung up on the fact that he is said to be the "beep-boop" guy. The character on this page is said to not be the "beep-boop" guy. Therefor, this doesn't belong as anything more than a note that "this toy was decoed like this guy and people thought he was this guy, but the story said otherwise". Xaaron's point about Tarn seems like a relevant parallel to me. People thought he was, story said otherwise. Note, and move on.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 16:56, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::The Tarn thing isn't ''really'' the same at all. The comic didn't say "Tarn is Roller", then throw out a surprise reveal that it was somebody different. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 17:11, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::The Tarn thing isn't ''really'' the same at all. The comic didn't say "Tarn is Roller", then throw out a surprise reveal that it was somebody different. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 17:11, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			:::::::::And did this material say "This Roller is not the beep boop guy"? Or did you just assume it? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 17:15, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

Jalaguy at 22:11, 28 November 2016

2016-11-28T22:11:48Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:11, 28 November 2016
Line 52:		Line 52:
	::::::Is the problem people are getting hung up on the "(IDW)" part of the article name? Because this article is about the character archetype, of which IDW Roller and UW Roller are both representations, not just literally the IDW guy. If the article was titled "Roller (bipedal dude who talks)", I don't think there'd be a question at all. --[[User:Abates\|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates\|talk]]) 16:49, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::Is the problem people are getting hung up on the "(IDW)" part of the article name? Because this article is about the character archetype, of which IDW Roller and UW Roller are both representations, not just literally the IDW guy. If the article was titled "Roller (bipedal dude who talks)", I don't think there'd be a question at all. --[[User:Abates\|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates\|talk]]) 16:49, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:::::::I'm hung up on the fact that he is said to be the "beep-boop" guy. The character on this page is said to not be the "beep-boop" guy. Therefor, this doesn't belong as anything more than a note that "this toy was decoed like this guy and people thought he was this guy, but the story said otherwise". Xaaron's point about Tarn seems like a relevant parallel to me. People thought he was, story said otherwise. Note, and move on.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 16:56, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::I'm hung up on the fact that he is said to be the "beep-boop" guy. The character on this page is said to not be the "beep-boop" guy. Therefor, this doesn't belong as anything more than a note that "this toy was decoed like this guy and people thought he was this guy, but the story said otherwise". Xaaron's point about Tarn seems like a relevant parallel to me. People thought he was, story said otherwise. Note, and move on.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 16:56, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::::The Tarn thing isn't ''really'' the same at all. The comic didn't say "Tarn is Roller", then throw out a surprise reveal that it was somebody different. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 17:11, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

Khajidha: /* Wandering Roller */

2016-11-28T21:56:48Z

Wandering Roller

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:56, 28 November 2016
Line 51:		Line 51:
	:::::I feel like we're fundamentally disagreeing on what "being" a version of a character means. - [[User:Chris McFeely\|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely\|talk]]) 16:12, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::I feel like we're fundamentally disagreeing on what "being" a version of a character means. - [[User:Chris McFeely\|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely\|talk]]) 16:12, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::Is the problem people are getting hung up on the "(IDW)" part of the article name? Because this article is about the character archetype, of which IDW Roller and UW Roller are both representations, not just literally the IDW guy. If the article was titled "Roller (bipedal dude who talks)", I don't think there'd be a question at all. --[[User:Abates\|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates\|talk]]) 16:49, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::Is the problem people are getting hung up on the "(IDW)" part of the article name? Because this article is about the character archetype, of which IDW Roller and UW Roller are both representations, not just literally the IDW guy. If the article was titled "Roller (bipedal dude who talks)", I don't think there'd be a question at all. --[[User:Abates\|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates\|talk]]) 16:49, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			:::::::I'm hung up on the fact that he is said to be the "beep-boop" guy. The character on this page is said to not be the "beep-boop" guy. Therefor, this doesn't belong as anything more than a note that "this toy was decoed like this guy and people thought he was this guy, but the story said otherwise". Xaaron's point about Tarn seems like a relevant parallel to me. People thought he was, story said otherwise. Note, and move on.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 16:56, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

Abates: /* Wandering Roller */

2016-11-28T21:49:20Z

Wandering Roller

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:49, 28 November 2016
Line 50:		Line 50:
	::::Where in the comic does it show or say him being the MTMTE guy? Nowhere; we all just fell for it. Leaving him up there is an anthropological snapshot of what it was like to be a fan the last half of 2016. It isn't actual storyline material. --[[User:Thylacine 2000\|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000\|talk]]) 16:09, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::Where in the comic does it show or say him being the MTMTE guy? Nowhere; we all just fell for it. Leaving him up there is an anthropological snapshot of what it was like to be a fan the last half of 2016. It isn't actual storyline material. --[[User:Thylacine 2000\|Thylacine 2000]] ([[User talk:Thylacine 2000\|talk]]) 16:09, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:::::I feel like we're fundamentally disagreeing on what "being" a version of a character means. - [[User:Chris McFeely\|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely\|talk]]) 16:12, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::I feel like we're fundamentally disagreeing on what "being" a version of a character means. - [[User:Chris McFeely\|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely\|talk]]) 16:12, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::Is the problem people are getting hung up on the "(IDW)" part of the article name? Because this article is about the character archetype, of which IDW Roller and UW Roller are both representations, not just literally the IDW guy. If the article was titled "Roller (bipedal dude who talks)", I don't think there'd be a question at all. --[[User:Abates\|abates]] ([[User talk:Abates\|talk]]) 16:49, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

M Sipher: /* Wandering Roller */

2016-11-28T21:42:37Z

Wandering Roller

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:42, 28 November 2016
Line 51:		Line 51:
	:::::I feel like we're fundamentally disagreeing on what "being" a version of a character means. - [[User:Chris McFeely\|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely\|talk]]) 16:12, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::I feel like we're fundamentally disagreeing on what "being" a version of a character means. - [[User:Chris McFeely\|Chris McFeely]] ([[User talk:Chris McFeely\|talk]]) 16:12, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:47, 8 December 2016
Line 37:		Line 37:
	:::::::::I'll put it like this - prior to the release of the final chapter, there was zero question that Wandering Roller was a version of IDW Roller, right? He looked like IDW Roller, had a take on IDW Roller's backstory, etc. Nobody would have argued "gee, can we really be sure?" The revelation that he is also G1 Roller does not somehow unwrite/invalidate all those things that made him super-obviously a version of IDW Roller. If, to create a wild hypothetical, a new chapter of the ''Legends'' manga declared that JG1 Windblade was actually rebuilt by the Zamojin from [[Lancer]], would we strip the ''Legends'' fiction and toy from [[Windblade (G1)]], leaving just a note saying "we thought this character was Windblade, but no, it was actually Lancer!"? [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 13:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::I'll put it like this - prior to the release of the final chapter, there was zero question that Wandering Roller was a version of IDW Roller, right? He looked like IDW Roller, had a take on IDW Roller's backstory, etc. Nobody would have argued "gee, can we really be sure?" The revelation that he is also G1 Roller does not somehow unwrite/invalidate all those things that made him super-obviously a version of IDW Roller. If, to create a wild hypothetical, a new chapter of the ''Legends'' manga declared that JG1 Windblade was actually rebuilt by the Zamojin from [[Lancer]], would we strip the ''Legends'' fiction and toy from [[Windblade (G1)]], leaving just a note saying "we thought this character was Windblade, but no, it was actually Lancer!"? [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 13:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::I would hope that we would do exactly that, because that's what the fiction said. All that buildup is just red herrings. You wouldn't write up a mystery novel and say that character one was the villain because all the clues pointed to him/her if the last chapter said "nope, it's actually character 2 who killed everybody", would you? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 13:54, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::I would hope that we would do exactly that, because that's what the fiction said. All that buildup is just red herrings. You wouldn't write up a mystery novel and say that character one was the villain because all the clues pointed to him/her if the last chapter said "nope, it's actually character 2 who killed everybody", would you? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 13:54, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::(sorry for the late reply) Yes, because TakaraTomy's treatment of female TFs is wretched, and if they reverse turn on a character I care about, I'm all for it. [[User:Magaroja\|Magaroja]] ([[User talk:Magaroja\|talk]]) 16:46, 8 December 2016 (EST)
	:::::::::::I... I don't even know how to respond to the notion that hiding information like that would be a good idea. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 14:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::::I... I don't even know how to respond to the notion that hiding information like that would be a good idea. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 14:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::::And I don't even know how you could disagree. The fiction says what it says. If it says that what looks like one character is actually another, then those appearances belong on the second character's page, not the first. Nothing would be hidden, as you said before that a note would be placed that "we thought this was this character, but it was really this one. See their page for details."--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 14:38, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::::And I don't even know how you could disagree. The fiction says what it says. If it says that what looks like one character is actually another, then those appearances belong on the second character's page, not the first. Nothing would be hidden, as you said before that a note would be placed that "we thought this was this character, but it was really this one. See their page for details."--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 14:38, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::::::(sorry for the late reply) Yes, because TakaraTomy's treatment of female TFs is wretched, and if they reverse turn on a character I care about, I'm all for it. [[User:Magaroja\|Magaroja]] ([[User talk:Magaroja\|talk]]) 16:46, 8 December 2016 (EST)
	:And let's not oversell "all those things" that made him "super-obviously" IDW Roller. It's really just TWO things: (1) WRoller apparently looked like IDW Roller before Unicron found him, and (2) he had a "vengeful spirit" because he was "abandoned by his comrades". Well, the final chapter completely explained away (2), providing a different scenario where WRoller was abandoned. He was talking about something else, not MTMTE #36 or anything like it. Which leaves (1). Just looking like somebody CANNOT be enough to say they're the same person in TF fiction. And for a comparable scenario, [[Nightbird (G1)]] is still a separate page from [[Nightracer (G2)]], even though Fun Pub used a place-holder image of 'Bird in ''A Flash Forward'' before introducing 'Racer.		:And let's not oversell "all those things" that made him "super-obviously" IDW Roller. It's really just TWO things: (1) WRoller apparently looked like IDW Roller before Unicron found him, and (2) he had a "vengeful spirit" because he was "abandoned by his comrades". Well, the final chapter completely explained away (2), providing a different scenario where WRoller was abandoned. He was talking about something else, not MTMTE #36 or anything like it. Which leaves (1). Just looking like somebody CANNOT be enough to say they're the same person in TF fiction. And for a comparable scenario, [[Nightbird (G1)]] is still a separate page from [[Nightracer (G2)]], even though Fun Pub used a place-holder image of 'Bird in ''A Flash Forward'' before introducing 'Racer.
	:There were reasons to think WRoller was the UW version of IDW Roller. But then the story went a different direction and explained away those reasons. What's left isn't enough to support the WRoller = IDW Roller idea. --[[User:Xaaron\|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron\|talk]]) 14:25, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:There were reasons to think WRoller was the UW version of IDW Roller. But then the story went a different direction and explained away those reasons. What's left isn't enough to support the WRoller = IDW Roller idea. --[[User:Xaaron\|Xaaron]] ([[User talk:Xaaron\|talk]]) 14:25, 28 November 2016 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:46, 8 December 2016
Line 37:		Line 37:
	:::::::::I'll put it like this - prior to the release of the final chapter, there was zero question that Wandering Roller was a version of IDW Roller, right? He looked like IDW Roller, had a take on IDW Roller's backstory, etc. Nobody would have argued "gee, can we really be sure?" The revelation that he is also G1 Roller does not somehow unwrite/invalidate all those things that made him super-obviously a version of IDW Roller. If, to create a wild hypothetical, a new chapter of the ''Legends'' manga declared that JG1 Windblade was actually rebuilt by the Zamojin from [[Lancer]], would we strip the ''Legends'' fiction and toy from [[Windblade (G1)]], leaving just a note saying "we thought this character was Windblade, but no, it was actually Lancer!"? [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 13:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::I'll put it like this - prior to the release of the final chapter, there was zero question that Wandering Roller was a version of IDW Roller, right? He looked like IDW Roller, had a take on IDW Roller's backstory, etc. Nobody would have argued "gee, can we really be sure?" The revelation that he is also G1 Roller does not somehow unwrite/invalidate all those things that made him super-obviously a version of IDW Roller. If, to create a wild hypothetical, a new chapter of the ''Legends'' manga declared that JG1 Windblade was actually rebuilt by the Zamojin from [[Lancer]], would we strip the ''Legends'' fiction and toy from [[Windblade (G1)]], leaving just a note saying "we thought this character was Windblade, but no, it was actually Lancer!"? [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 13:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::I would hope that we would do exactly that, because that's what the fiction said. All that buildup is just red herrings. You wouldn't write up a mystery novel and say that character one was the villain because all the clues pointed to him/her if the last chapter said "nope, it's actually character 2 who killed everybody", would you? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 13:54, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::I would hope that we would do exactly that, because that's what the fiction said. All that buildup is just red herrings. You wouldn't write up a mystery novel and say that character one was the villain because all the clues pointed to him/her if the last chapter said "nope, it's actually character 2 who killed everybody", would you? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 13:54, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::::::(sorry for the late reply) Yes, because TakaraTomy's treatment of female TFs is wretched, and if they reverse turn on a character I care about, I'm all for it. [[User:Magaroja\|Magaroja]] ([[User talk:Magaroja\|talk]]) 16:46, 8 December 2016 (EST)
	:::::::::::I... I don't even know how to respond to the notion that hiding information like that would be a good idea. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 14:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::::I... I don't even know how to respond to the notion that hiding information like that would be a good idea. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 14:28, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::::And I don't even know how you could disagree. The fiction says what it says. If it says that what looks like one character is actually another, then those appearances belong on the second character's page, not the first. Nothing would be hidden, as you said before that a note would be placed that "we thought this was this character, but it was really this one. See their page for details."--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 14:38, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::::And I don't even know how you could disagree. The fiction says what it says. If it says that what looks like one character is actually another, then those appearances belong on the second character's page, not the first. Nothing would be hidden, as you said before that a note would be placed that "we thought this was this character, but it was really this one. See their page for details."--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 14:38, 28 November 2016 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:49, 28 November 2016
Line 56:		Line 56:
	::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:::::::::::I'm sure I'm not going to win this, so this will be my last post in this topic. But I struggle to see what this proposed overall IDW Roller would be. What makes a character "IDW Roller"? I was under the impression that this page was about a G1 character named Roller who was not the "beep boop drone" and that any G1 character that was said drone would be on the other page. Everything else that anyone has mentioned seems no more than homages and red herrings designed to make you think that WR was the IDWverse Roller and not the drone, but not actually indications of identity. All that we are actually told about WR's identity is that he IS the drone.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 18:44, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::::I'm sure I'm not going to win this, so this will be my last post in this topic. But I struggle to see what this proposed overall IDW Roller would be. What makes a character "IDW Roller"? I was under the impression that this page was about a G1 character named Roller who was not the "beep boop drone" and that any G1 character that was said drone would be on the other page. Everything else that anyone has mentioned seems no more than homages and red herrings designed to make you think that WR was the IDWverse Roller and not the drone, but not actually indications of identity. All that we are actually told about WR's identity is that he IS the drone.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 18:44, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::::::::IDW Roller is "an orange and black guy who is Optimus Prime's friend". G1 Roller is "a silver six wheeled vehicle who lives in Optimus Prime's trailer". JG1 Roller is both. Being "not the drone guy" is not a required component of being IDW Roller; we don't define character archetypes by what they aren't. (And by default, JG1 Roller is not "the drone", because he's been explicitly presented as a sentient individual!) --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 18:49, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:44, 28 November 2016
Line 55:		Line 55:
	:::::::::And did this material say "This Roller is not the beep boop guy"? Or did you just assume it? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 17:15, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::And did this material say "This Roller is not the beep boop guy"? Or did you just assume it? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 17:15, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			:::::::::::I'm sure I'm not going to win this, so this will be my last post in this topic. But I struggle to see what this proposed overall IDW Roller would be. What makes a character "IDW Roller"? I was under the impression that this page was about a G1 character named Roller who was not the "beep boop drone" and that any G1 character that was said drone would be on the other page. Everything else that anyone has mentioned seems no more than homages and red herrings designed to make you think that WR was the IDWverse Roller and not the drone, but not actually indications of identity. All that we are actually told about WR's identity is that he IS the drone.--[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 18:44, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:17, 28 November 2016
Line 54:		Line 54:
	::::::::The Tarn thing isn't ''really'' the same at all. The comic didn't say "Tarn is Roller", then throw out a surprise reveal that it was somebody different. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 17:11, 28 November 2016 (EST)		::::::::The Tarn thing isn't ''really'' the same at all. The comic didn't say "Tarn is Roller", then throw out a surprise reveal that it was somebody different. [[User:Jalaguy\|Jalaguy]] ([[User talk:Jalaguy\|talk]]) 17:11, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:::::::::And did this material say "This Roller is not the beep boop guy"? Or did you just assume it? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 17:15, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:::::::::And did this material say "This Roller is not the beep boop guy"? Or did you just assume it? --[[User:Khajidha\|Khajidha]] ([[User talk:Khajidha\|talk]]) 17:15, 28 November 2016 (EST)
			::::::::::Not sure what you're getting at here. ''The IDWverse version'' of IDW Roller can't be "the beep boop guy", since he was missing during the time period that G1 Roller was active, but that doesn't preclude the JG1verse version of IDW Roller being the beep boop guy. --[[User:Riptide\|Riptide]] ([[User talk:Riptide\|talk]]) 17:17, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)		: I also agree with Chris. The way the information is presented now on this page is ideal. --[[User:ItsWalky\|ItsWalky]] ([[User talk:ItsWalky\|talk]]) 16:04, 28 November 2016 (EST)
	:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)		:Yeah, I'm with Chris. --[[User:M Sipher\|M Sipher]] ([[User talk:M Sipher\|talk]]) 16:42, 28 November 2016 (EST)