Talk:Combatant: Difference between revisions
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::::Everyone else who's talked on this page agrees, so what do we need for a proper consensus here? I'd also like to note that you unilaterally pulled this content from the page it's been on for years because it was given an extra name in a sourcebook. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 12:05, 23 June 2021 (EDT) | ::::Everyone else who's talked on this page agrees, so what do we need for a proper consensus here? I'd also like to note that you unilaterally pulled this content from the page it's been on for years because it was given an extra name in a sourcebook. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 12:05, 23 June 2021 (EDT) | ||
:::::"This thing I say is similar to this other thing established a decade later" isn't how most of the wiki works. There is no direct connection between Movieverse protoforms and Combantants, be it inspiration or fictional linkage, like how there's no direct connection between [[Angolmois Energy]] and [[Dark Energon]] beyond vague similarity (and ''thank God'' they weren't merged because subsequent actual fiction would firmly establish they aren't actually the same thing). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:22, 23 June 2021 (EDT) | :::::"This thing I say is similar to this other thing established a decade later" isn't how most of the wiki works. There is no direct connection between Movieverse protoforms and Combantants, be it inspiration or fictional linkage, like how there's no direct connection between [[Angolmois Energy]] and [[Dark Energon]] beyond vague similarity (and ''thank God'' they weren't merged because subsequent actual fiction would firmly establish they aren't actually the same thing). [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 12:22, 23 June 2021 (EDT) | ||
::::::I'm going to step back and let some other people weigh in, because this is getting us nowhere. I'll go with whatever the majority and admins decide. [[User:TransFormersfan1|TransFormersfan1]] ([[User talk:TransFormersfan1|talk]]) 12:43, 23 June 2021 (EDT) | |||
Revision as of 16:43, 23 June 2021
Delete and fold back into protoform
Is there any purpose to keeping this on its own page? They have their own name, but in every conceptual way they are identical to protoforms as we currently understand them. They look like liquid metal, they're Cybertronians who have assumed a base form between taking alternate modes (which multiple continuities have explicitly established as still being protoform state). If Cosmic Rust and the Rust Plague are conceptually identical enough to be merged, so is this. TransFormersfan1 (talk) 16:35, 22 June 2021 (EDT)
- I agree. But if we're going to keep them separate, at least they should link to each other in their notes sections. --Fritz (talk) 20:11, 22 June 2021 (EDT)
- At first, I was going to say that Cosmic Rust and Rust Plague had similar enough names that they could easily be conflated while Protoform and Combatant don't... Until I saw the note about them never being named in the show and the term coming from a sourcebook, and in light of that I'm inclined to agree they should be merged. -- Dark T Zeratul (talk) 20:21, 22 June 2021 (EDT)
They're Putty Patrol-like mooks, not immobile "prototypes", who got dropped quickly because those early episodes didn't have consistent lore. Interpreting them as protoforms is a retroactive reading influenced by media that was released nearly a decade later. Saix (talk) 21:02, 22 June 2021 (EDT)
- I can agree that this is a retroactive interpretation, but it's far from a stretch, and the wiki has done this before. The live-action film series has plenty of protoforms who go around and fight, and are explicitly depicted as "core" forms they take between alt-modes, which is exactly what these are. Whether or not they were intended to be a kind of protoform at the time (which I think they are, especially considering this is a Beast Era product), from a conceptual and readability perspective, they fit the bill. I think we should fold it back in, add Combatant to foreign names and make a note about them. I'm happy to do it. TransFormersfan1 (talk) 11:21, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
- We are not in the business of making up interpretations that the fiction hasn't made. They weren't called prototypes or protoforms (which were explicitly immobile newborns in stasis pods in the only fiction they showed up in by 1998—Beast Wars) at any point in the cartoon or in concurrent media. They're generic mooks who got upgraded into the Autorollers before they realized, whoops, the Autorollers have a backstory. Saix (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
- You are literally choosing to ignore all media since then, which has depicted protoforms as exactly this. Protoforms have evolved since this show aired. We can agree that Japanese Beast Wars 'Prototypes' and these are different, but they are both protoforms according to the way the concept has been employed for decades. and the wiki has folded concepts together when there is a clear connection because two pages is redundant. There is no tangible difference between the protoforms in the 2007 movie and these guys. Literally none. All you've done is cut content from a page that's been there for years for the sake of being pedantic. TransFormersfan1 (talk) 12:01, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
- Everyone else who's talked on this page agrees, so what do we need for a proper consensus here? I'd also like to note that you unilaterally pulled this content from the page it's been on for years because it was given an extra name in a sourcebook. TransFormersfan1 (talk) 12:05, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
- "This thing I say is similar to this other thing established a decade later" isn't how most of the wiki works. There is no direct connection between Movieverse protoforms and Combantants, be it inspiration or fictional linkage, like how there's no direct connection between Angolmois Energy and Dark Energon beyond vague similarity (and thank God they weren't merged because subsequent actual fiction would firmly establish they aren't actually the same thing). Saix (talk) 12:22, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
- I'm going to step back and let some other people weigh in, because this is getting us nowhere. I'll go with whatever the majority and admins decide. TransFormersfan1 (talk) 12:43, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
- "This thing I say is similar to this other thing established a decade later" isn't how most of the wiki works. There is no direct connection between Movieverse protoforms and Combantants, be it inspiration or fictional linkage, like how there's no direct connection between Angolmois Energy and Dark Energon beyond vague similarity (and thank God they weren't merged because subsequent actual fiction would firmly establish they aren't actually the same thing). Saix (talk) 12:22, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
- Everyone else who's talked on this page agrees, so what do we need for a proper consensus here? I'd also like to note that you unilaterally pulled this content from the page it's been on for years because it was given an extra name in a sourcebook. TransFormersfan1 (talk) 12:05, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
- You are literally choosing to ignore all media since then, which has depicted protoforms as exactly this. Protoforms have evolved since this show aired. We can agree that Japanese Beast Wars 'Prototypes' and these are different, but they are both protoforms according to the way the concept has been employed for decades. and the wiki has folded concepts together when there is a clear connection because two pages is redundant. There is no tangible difference between the protoforms in the 2007 movie and these guys. Literally none. All you've done is cut content from a page that's been there for years for the sake of being pedantic. TransFormersfan1 (talk) 12:01, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
- We are not in the business of making up interpretations that the fiction hasn't made. They weren't called prototypes or protoforms (which were explicitly immobile newborns in stasis pods in the only fiction they showed up in by 1998—Beast Wars) at any point in the cartoon or in concurrent media. They're generic mooks who got upgraded into the Autorollers before they realized, whoops, the Autorollers have a backstory. Saix (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2021 (EDT)
