Talk:Echoes and Fragments
If ever we were given cause to kill individual GoBots pages, this disgusting masturbatory horseshit is it. If ever there was doubt that these things were being done to end-run and abuse the wiki, it's dead. Jesus fucking Christ. --M Sipher (talk) 02:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- Finding it hard to argue with you. I mean.. geez. This is a lot of effort put into something for inconsequential stuff... Imagine if people put this much effort into... making a Go-Bots wiki. --Ascendron (talk) 02:46, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- Jesus. I mean, I was in favour of this story getting its own page, but this is just... not good. I might try clearing it up and cutting it down, significantly, because oh dear. --Riptide (talk) 03:04, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- I admit that if this page were to be deleted, I would probably not care. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 03:06, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- I hate to bring emotions into my decision, and I might regret just posting this but, at this point, I want to suggest going one step further and just having the Gobots links just go to the appropriate pages on Wikipedia. If a Gobots wiki is ever made, we can change them then to go to that wiki. For goodness's sake, we're a Transformers wiki. That's what I WANT to do here. And it's starting to drain me being in the middle of this. --Ascendron (talk) 03:07, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- For what it's worth, Jim told me not to bother writing up this article because the wiki had instituted its no-GoBot rule. I told him he was wrong, that it was only Renegade Rhetoric that was considered out of scope, and even checked on community portal. He said the community had decided it didn't like GoBots and just respect their right to ignore the bits it doesn't like. Is that what's happening here? Is this the wiki of all the Transformers canon except the parts we don't like? Because if so there's some really creepy misogynistic bits I wouldn't mind removing/just linking to Wikipedia for. --Giggidy (talk) 03:30, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- The difference is, those warts in transformers fiction is still Tranformers fiction. This is like... really stretching the definition? There's a few other character's I've considered suggesting collapsing into a single list article. Kamen Riders being one of them. --Ascendron (talk) 03:44, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- (Yes, I edited a part of my previous post because it came off WAY more mean than I wanted it to). Really, alright, saying we should link them off might be going too far. In my ideal world, where everything would be perfect, the Gobots wiki would be a sister wiki of this one in every way. It would have the same layout, the same policies, and you could segway from one to the other easy as pie. But no matter how much people SAY they want to make a GoBots wiki, no one actually DOES. Surely you can understand how frustrating it is that people seem so intent to just force this wiki to bear the load of TWO franchises? --Ascendron (talk) 03:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- I don't think that's what's going on here. Jim seemed perfectly fine with this stuff not being on the wiki. I really think he just has fun writing GoBots stories and is happy that Hasbro lets him. I guess it's my own OCD that makes me want to write up the GoBots who meet Transformers here, just like we do with Marvel heroes and G.I. Joe characters.
- And as to this "stretching the definition" of a story... does it? Did you read it? I laughed out loud at several parts and found the juxtaposition of GoBots elements with the overly familiar Transformers The Movie story rather clever. Blaster getting swapped for Blaster, Leader-1's corny response to "why throw away your life so recklessly", Fracture and Deadlift as Unicron upgrades for Crasher and Deadlift. It's a good read, and virtually every scene has a traditional Transformer in it. So, to call it not a Transformers story seems unfair. --Giggidy (talk) 04:13, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- (Yes, I edited a part of my previous post because it came off WAY more mean than I wanted it to). Really, alright, saying we should link them off might be going too far. In my ideal world, where everything would be perfect, the Gobots wiki would be a sister wiki of this one in every way. It would have the same layout, the same policies, and you could segway from one to the other easy as pie. But no matter how much people SAY they want to make a GoBots wiki, no one actually DOES. Surely you can understand how frustrating it is that people seem so intent to just force this wiki to bear the load of TWO franchises? --Ascendron (talk) 03:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- The difference is, those warts in transformers fiction is still Tranformers fiction. This is like... really stretching the definition? There's a few other character's I've considered suggesting collapsing into a single list article. Kamen Riders being one of them. --Ascendron (talk) 03:44, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- For what it's worth, Jim told me not to bother writing up this article because the wiki had instituted its no-GoBot rule. I told him he was wrong, that it was only Renegade Rhetoric that was considered out of scope, and even checked on community portal. He said the community had decided it didn't like GoBots and just respect their right to ignore the bits it doesn't like. Is that what's happening here? Is this the wiki of all the Transformers canon except the parts we don't like? Because if so there's some really creepy misogynistic bits I wouldn't mind removing/just linking to Wikipedia for. --Giggidy (talk) 03:30, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- I hate to bring emotions into my decision, and I might regret just posting this but, at this point, I want to suggest going one step further and just having the Gobots links just go to the appropriate pages on Wikipedia. If a Gobots wiki is ever made, we can change them then to go to that wiki. For goodness's sake, we're a Transformers wiki. That's what I WANT to do here. And it's starting to drain me being in the middle of this. --Ascendron (talk) 03:07, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- I admit that if this page were to be deleted, I would probably not care. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 03:06, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- Jesus. I mean, I was in favour of this story getting its own page, but this is just... not good. I might try clearing it up and cutting it down, significantly, because oh dear. --Riptide (talk) 03:04, 1 March 2016 (EST)
I was just waiting for this story to shit everything up. - Chris McFeely (talk) 04:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)
Okay, so... as an extended story, I think this warrants its own page, yes. (As Jim pointed out, the original is only slightly shorter than the upcoming Beast Wars: Uprising story.) And it is heavily Transformers-based, as opposed to being more-or-less pure GoBots fiction like Renegade Rhetoric is. But I think that, really, 70-80% of this article could be replaced with "events followed as in Transformers: The Movie, except with these GoBots replacing these Transformers", because... that's what it is. We don't need full descriptions of anything except the Sideways/Vector/Gong parts. (Also, the sooner we condense the GoBot character pages, the better. All those red links are making me nervous that someone's going to start adding them.) --Riptide (talk) 05:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- And that's exactly what I'm advocating. The page SHOULD exist. But really. REALLY. --M Sipher (talk) 05:55, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- I would also like to add that I don't consider this justification to give the GoBots who appear in it individual articles, but I don't know if anyone was claiming it was. Just felt important to say. - Chris McFeely (talk) 05:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- No? None of them? I mean, some get a ton of fiction here. Is there any intellectual foundation for this position, or is it basically just "we don't like it." I see plenty of room to condense characters, but certainly this should expand the scope of who gets featured. --Giggidy (talk) 08:09, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- I would also like to add that I don't consider this justification to give the GoBots who appear in it individual articles, but I don't know if anyone was claiming it was. Just felt important to say. - Chris McFeely (talk) 05:58, 1 March 2016 (EST)
Sigh.
Giggidy, I like you, I truly do. I appreciate your enthusiasm for AVP and co. But there's a point where you have to step back on some things, and wonder if you're going too far.
Now, as for the article itself, I feel that there's bits that are acceptable and bits that aren't. The notes section is fine, who's replaced with who makes sense. But the summary really needs paring down. Escargon (talk) 06:47, 1 March 2016 (EST)
It seems a bit narcissistic to insist that Jim shouldn't write what he wants to write because of the wiki or that it's the purpose of his work. Nobody's obligated to respect our idiosyncrasies when it comes to particular topics. Saix (talk) 09:32, 1 March 2016 (EST)
"Echos" or "Echoes"?
This is unrelated to whatever argument just occurred, but we need to figure out if it's "Echos and Fragments" or "Echoes and Fragments". The page itself goes with "Echos", while the file description for File: Echoes and Fragments cover.jpg uses "Echoes". -Foffy the Sheep (talk) 07:14, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- It was Echos, but it's since been edited to be Echoes. --Riptide (talk) 07:15, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- Ah, okay then. Like you said when you moved the page, it might be worth leaving a redirect for. Perhaps a note should be put in the Notes section as well? -Foffy the Sheep (talk) 07:29, 1 March 2016 (EST)
Delete
Why is this even an issue? I thought this was all settled two months ago. If the wiki doesn't want to cover GoBots (or any other piece of my writing, or anyone elses' for that matter) the wiki doesn't have to. I'm a big believer in engaging with the bits of the franchise you like, and ignoring the bits you don't. Giggidy, the reason I asked you not to write up this article was because it's evident which way the majority of this particular community leans. Just respect that. I'll write whatever I want, the wiki can cover whatever it wants, and other readers can read or not read whatever they want. It's not rocket science here. --Jimsorenson (talk) 11:11, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- The issue is that this isn't unambiguously GoBots fiction like the majority of us consider Renegade Rhetoric to be; it's combination GoBots and Transformers fiction, a la Withered Hope. I don't think anyone actually thinks this shouldn't be covered. --Riptide (talk) 13:43, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- Yeah, I definitely think this should be covered. The issue of how to handle the Go-Bots elements is something we'll have to deal with somehow. (I think we said they would all go in a list article or something? Am I understanding that correctly?) If there was a Go-Bots wiki, I'd say we should link to that, but... -Foffy the Sheep (talk) 13:53, 1 March 2016 (EST)
A different proposal
Since this story was presented by Vector Prime in universe as a document written by his student, Blueshift, what if we were to likewise treat this story as such? Instead of this article covering the events of a fictional story written by a real world author (Jim Sorenson), it would cover the contents of a fictional document written by a fictional author (Blueshift), thereby treating the actual story within the document as a meta-fictional story-within-a-story that we needn't cover in the same manner as real-world fiction, but still having it covered on here in some fashion. --Sabrblade (talk) 18:18, 1 March 2016 (EST)
- I'm against it. There's no point being cheeky about it and trying to find loopholes so we can get to say "it doesn't count." The Go-Bots can still get one list-page. There's no reason list-pages can't be just as informative, interesting, and in-depth as anything else. And there's no reason why the existence of this specific fiction should change our approach to the Go-Bots being documented. It's not about whether the story is good or bad. I enjoy Sorenson's writing frequently. It's about the fact that we approach different franchises outside of TF on a pretty case-by-case basis, and I think the (mostly) list article is the fairest approach for Go-Bots. G.I. Joe has special "rules" that let us include a little bit more than we would for say, Star Wars. I know my reaction was based on the presumption of what it meant about other Go-Bots articles. I'm sure that's the case for other people. Everything should be documented in full, as it should be, but you shouldn't wind up on a Go-Bots page every third click of the "Random Page" button with the current proposal. Article stands. List of Go-Bot stands. That's what I think. --Ascendron (talk) 02:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- Oy. Yes. What Ascendron said. TF fiction is confusing enough as it is. Proposals like that only complicate it more. --M Sipher (talk) 03:25, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- Yeah, I don't think anyone was actually saying this should be covered in any way other than normal. It just need to not be used as an excuse to go back on our previous GoBots ruling. - Chris McFeely (talk) 05:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- But our previous GoBots ruling specifically does not cover situations like this. I can see the case for using a list on the guys that get a one-off mention, which is most of them. But for big players like Major Mo or Zero, I don't see how it can be used with any degree of coherency. --Giggidy (talk) 07:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- Fine. New proposal: extend the previous GoBots ruling to cover the GoBots characters in Echoes and Fragments. All in favour? --Riptide (talk) 08:02, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- Old proposal was on the somewhat dubious grounds that "Renegade Rhetoric is not Transformers fiction." Is there any kind of intellectual foundation for this new proposal beyond "we don't like GoBots" that I'm not seeing here? And shouldn't a proposal like this be debated on Community Portal? --Giggidy (talk) 08:13, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- Giggidy, please, let it go. "We don't like GoBots" is a PERFECTLY VALID and legitimate reason not to want to write about it. They don't NEED a better reason, so stop asking for one.
- And, wiki folks, not for nothin', but I strongly recommend just adopting the stance that all GoBots are verboten and not try to contort yourself through intellectual hoops to justify their exclusion. I've had GoBots in my work since 2010 (though you can be forgiven for not realizing that Zero (Animated) and Zero (GoBots) aren't the same dude, since I hadn't introduce the concept of the diaspora yet) and I'm not likely to stop any time in the near future. I'll be happier if every time you see a Monster GoBot in Uprising or there's some new GoBot face in Axiom Nexus it doesn't kick off a big argument, and in the long run you'll be happier too. --Jimsorenson (talk) 09:27, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- Old proposal was on the somewhat dubious grounds that "Renegade Rhetoric is not Transformers fiction." Is there any kind of intellectual foundation for this new proposal beyond "we don't like GoBots" that I'm not seeing here? And shouldn't a proposal like this be debated on Community Portal? --Giggidy (talk) 08:13, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- Fine. New proposal: extend the previous GoBots ruling to cover the GoBots characters in Echoes and Fragments. All in favour? --Riptide (talk) 08:02, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- But our previous GoBots ruling specifically does not cover situations like this. I can see the case for using a list on the guys that get a one-off mention, which is most of them. But for big players like Major Mo or Zero, I don't see how it can be used with any degree of coherency. --Giggidy (talk) 07:38, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- Yeah, I don't think anyone was actually saying this should be covered in any way other than normal. It just need to not be used as an excuse to go back on our previous GoBots ruling. - Chris McFeely (talk) 05:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)
- Oy. Yes. What Ascendron said. TF fiction is confusing enough as it is. Proposals like that only complicate it more. --M Sipher (talk) 03:25, 2 March 2016 (EST)
Can't we just get past this bullshit already? Some people on the wiki don't like covering GoBots, but nobody is obligated to respect the supposed "consensus" of some website and we will just have to deal. Saix (talk) 09:01, 2 March 2016 (EST)
