Talk:Sonic Bomber (Cybertron)

Alright, seriously, what is the point of this? Who does this benefit beyond the most "in the weeds" editors who are familiar with the Galaxy Force behind the scenes stuff, and why is Wing Saber and Sideways any more special than Hot Shot or Red Alert or Landmine or whoever to make this justifiable as a split? And before anyone raises any hackles about this being biased against Japanese media, let it be known that I also feel the same way about the pages for Energon Mirage and Snow Cat, i.e. that they're useless and pointlessly confusing to readers. Escargon (talk) 10:11, 30 December 2022 (EST)

After some consideration I'm inclined to agree; this feels like making separate pages for RID01 Megatron and Gigatron when that's not something we traditionally do. Grum (talk) 10:48, 30 December 2022 (EST)

Or for Japan's male Airazor. I agree that this page should instead be a note on Wing Saber. --Thylacine 2000 (talk) 11:36, 30 December 2022 (EST)

Fourthed. --M Sipher (talk) 06:34, 31 December 2022 (EST)

Neither of those examples are equivalent scenarios; they're just dub changes that don't retcon them to be different characters. Sonic Bomber isn't Wing Saber or designed to be him, and that characterization remains so for the cartoon, which is a step above profile-only dudes like Mirage and Roadblock. If this goes, the rest have to go too. Saix (talk) 11:05, 31 December 2022 (EST)

As I said, I am also all for merging Mirage and Roadblock with a note explaining that their Hasbro bios make them separate characters. In fact, the only reason why I wasn’t more vocal about Mirage in particular is because until recently I was under the impression that the Dreamwave comic also made Tidal Wave a different dude from him. Escargon (talk) 11:19, 31 December 2022 (EST)

I would say "isn't Wing Saber in the original anime and the manga" is equivalent or bigger than "isn't Tidal Wave in the comic". Same reason we have a separate Victory Leo article when 90% of media has him be God Ginrai. Saix (talk) 12:41, 31 December 2022 (EST)

For the sake of devil's advocacy, I would be in favour of having separate Megatron and Gigatron pages if RID01 had presented Megatron as a new form for the original Megatron, which would be closer to what's going on here. I don't feel particularly strongly either way, but I don't think the RID01 comparison is a very good one. --Riptide (talk) 13:50, 31 December 2022 (EST)

I disagree with the opening assertion that this is somehow confusing to readers. It's really as simple as the note in the cartoon section says, that when Galaxy Force was dubbed into Cybertron, Sonic Bomber was reinterpreted as a new body for the existing character Wing Saber. That note could perhaps stand to be rewritten, but it's not a difficult concept. Also, said users that aren't in the weeds won't even know what Galaxy Force is and as such would be looking for Wing Saber anyway. Wing Saber's page does include his Cybertron incarnation, so they're not going to be missing anything. I agree that the RID comparison isn't a good one. It's more akin to Powermaster Optimus Prime vs Super Ginrai. --Tigerpaw28 (talk) 14:53, 31 December 2022 (EST)

Regarding just Snow Cat, Furman told me pointblank that Dreamwave Snow Cat was not an upgraded Cyclonus. He said that he and the others at Dreamwave were not looking at what the cartoon was doing at the time of their working on the Armada/Energon comics. --Sabrblade (talk) 14:56, 31 December 2022 (EST)

Again, I go back to Hot Shot, Landmine, and the like. What makes Wing Saber different from them? And honestly, I’m not convinced that the Cybertron character is meaningfully different from the Energon character, anymore so than the others, especially in the case of guys like Hot Shot. Sideways, sure, but “serious” to “cocky” is about the same leap Hot Shot makes. Escargon (talk) 15:07, 31 December 2022 (EST)

I think I can try answering this one. When Hasbro and Takara were first creating the toys for the Cybertron/Galaxy Force characters, the likes of Optimus Prime, Hot Shot, Jetfire, Landmine, Red Alert, Megatron, and Starscream were all conceptualized as being new toys/bodies of the same characters from Armada/Energon. When Sonic Bomber was created, however, Takara intended for him to be a brand new character altogether (a very early name for him was even "Roadfire"), and he was presented as a new guy in both the Galaxy Force cartoon and manga. To reflect this new-character status of his, Hasbro was originally going to give him the English name of "Knockdown", but later changed their minds at the very last minute and decided to instead give him the name "Wing Saber", pretending that he was actually the same guy as the Energon character, regardless of how little sense that made. --Sabrblade (talk) 15:31, 31 December 2022 (EST)

What's getting lost in the weeds of all these specifics is; what is the point of this page that exists only to showcase the Galaxy Force manga and a hyper-truncated summary of the Cybertron cartoon? It's not like Victory Leo, where the manga deliberately chose to, for whatever reason, make him separate from God Ginrai, or Greatshot, where it's a deliberate retcon years after the fact. This is a simultaneous thing, and for all intents and purposes, the Galaxy Force anime and related things treats Hot Shot, Red Alert, Jetfire, et all as different characters. Wisely, we don't make a separate page for them because it's redundant. I don't think Wing Saber (and Sideways) having separate origins from those deliberately designed as the same character is enough to justify them getting their own page. And that's without mentioning how Club stuff treats them as the same characters (see, the Caliber Mini-Con guys). Escargon (talk) 18:51, 31 December 2022 (EST)

A. I don't see how the timing being contemporary makes it less justified. If anything, that should make it more justified because they were different from the start. B. It's exactly like Victory Leo, two contemporaneous pieces of media with differing interpretations as different individuals. The Cybertron dub chose to, for reasons we know very clearly, to make Sonic Bomber not separate from Wing Saber. --Tigerpaw28 (talk) 23:15, 31 December 2022 (EST)

Probably a mistake to push forward on this but I don't want this to just peter out, even if it makes me sound like a broken record: in-universe (not including out-of-universe details like designs, because that's not what factors into Energon's splits at all), what justifies this having its own page and not any of the other Cybertron guys? Is this actually helpful or is this just a random bit of separation that only exists because of technicalities? Escargon (talk) 22:59, 4 January 2023 (EST)

• • I say just make those characters' pages a sub section of the basis' pages. That way, we can have both sides repped.--Poliwag06 (talk) 01:02, 5 January 2023 (EST)

I mostly agree that it's silly to split Sonic Bomber from Wing Sabre, though I see the reasoning. For me, Hasbro's intent was that "jet plane power mushrooms for optimus prime is the same", no different to the Sideways situation. However, maybe uniquely, I also think the Energon characters should stay split, as that was Hasbro's intent that's plainly reflected in both the toys, names, bios, and even fiction, and I think a bit of bias towards English media is appropriate considering this is an English-language wiki. Creating a separate page for Sonic Bomber simply does not benefit our readers.--The Wadapan (talk) 09:49, 5 January 2023 (EST)