Talk:Clampdown (RID)
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[edit]Why are we keeping the Kre-O version of him on this page? We don't do that with other Kreons, do we? Not saying I disagree, they're clearly the same guy. But there are lots of other Kreon versions of guys the wiki declares to be seperate and I'd like to understand the thinking. --Giggidy (talk) 00:36, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- I think there might be a bit of a push to list the toys on both pages. M Sipher added Strongarm's Kre-O and Hero Mashers toys to her page. I generally agree with this, though for some characters that have lots of Kre-O toys, maybe putting a link to their Kre-O counterpart toy section would be more viable. Though I don't really believe that's really an issue as of right now. Even the characters with the most Kre-O releases wouldn't bog down another page too much. --Ascendron (talk) 02:51, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- Kre-O is another universe. Confirmed in Ask Vector Prime. -StarWars_Jedi 10:28, 25 October 2015 (MSK)
This was a thing I pushed for a while back, because redirecting the reader to a second page that contains precisely fuck-all that they wouldn't have gotten on the page they left is utterly pointless pedantic horsehockey that does nothing but obfuscate information, and make for a worse reading experience for any reader no matter how involved with the franchise they are, but way moreso for the casual. Why would redirecting someone to a Clampdown Kreon page that adds nothing more than "this toy is based on the character whose page you just left" be desirable? That's a toy of Clampdown, the character from the cartoon. Pretending it's not is willfully idiotic, regardless of what one person writing a Facebook thing says, and is the sort of garbage we need to brutally excise from this wiki.
The only semivalid argument for having the information not on the source character page would be article size concerns. But I can count the characters this would theoretically apply to on one hand. Basically just the Bumblebees and Optimuses from G1 and the movies, and I'm not convinced they'd really add all that much more per.
I just haven't gotten around to this really going at this specific task yet because I've had multiple far more important obligations these last few months, and frankly the aforementioned pedantic horsehockey that certain sources have been flooding the place with has made me loathe to spend time on it anyway. --M Sipher (talk) 04:01, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- I thought the Kre-O versions of characters getting separated out happened long before AVP, as with the various now-designated Iocus characters. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 04:14, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- They started separated, but putting all these side-line toys in their source character pages had nothing to do with AVP and everything to do with what I said above. AVP is a non-entity in this as far as I'm concerned. --M Sipher (talk) 04:17, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- Not to mention that the whole argument of using AVP as a source as to why all these things should be separated is a contradiction in of itself. Vector Prime, as he is portrayed in that feature, has basically said that he doesn't really see the difference between versions of characters, or at least doesn't separate them in a system analogous to ours. As far as AVP is concerned, Animated Bulkhead and Prime Bulkhead are basically the same guy. Time and time again, AVP said "don't think too hard about it" for a lot of stuff like that. Now, we separate things according to a system that's meant to facilitate and structurise access to information. Both are important. When the Hasbro guys made Kre-O Clampdown, they were thinking "This is the guy from our new tv show." When kids buy Kre-O Clampdown, they're thinking "this is the guy I saw in the tv show." Heck, most adult collectors probably think the same way. Not including their information on this page is basically us being in denial because we're prioritizing structure over information itself waaaaay too much. As far as I can tell, "Iocus" and "Fornax" are basically just shorthand for "Universes where lots of guys from different franchises can interact without any cross-dimensional stuff happening" and "Universes where characters can swap between different versions of themselves from different universes by switching parts, and interact with characters from different franchise, and everything is made out of lego bricks." --Ascendron (talk) 08:56, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- I think this mostly makes sense to me. On the one hand, it's clear that, on some level, Kre-o is its own universe, with stories and fiction. On another level, it's a very merchandise-based line, borrowing from multiple universes. It probably makes sense to list Kreons with other toys, with the Bumblebee and Optimus exceptions M Sipher listed.
- Once again, it seems like our old way of doing things is breaking down in the face of the changing fictional and merchandising landscape. I really think we should hash out what this means for the wiki's overall organization scheme. This seems like more evidence that characters can comfortably exist multiple continuity families without us making too many pages for them or falling back on repurposing language.
- (Just to confirm, no one here thinks we need to insert language to the effect of "Clampdown is a repurpose of Clampdown the Kreon", right?)--Giggidy (talk) 09:11, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- Doesn't seem necessary. Wasn't someone working on a page that covered toys that were originally released with the intent of representing multiple characters? It was like repurposing, but not the same. --Ascendron (talk) 10:31, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- That was me. My notes are on my user page. Under current wiki policy, we would absolutely need to declare one Clampdown a repurpose of another. I disagree with this policy and was looking for a better solution. --Giggidy (talk) 10:41, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- Ah, yes. Multi-franchise characters. Have you pitched this on the Community Portal? Between Slicer's Timelines toy, and the wiki's recent softening towards listing continuity families atop of certain mini-cons' pages, I feel you might get the support needed to implement it. Addendum: To make it clear, I"m not advocating for us to get rid of the Kre-O pages. Having separate pages for them is helpful for making sense of the Kre-O supporting fiction, andi illustrates well how, say the G1 Megatron and the Movie Megatron are the same guy in the Kre-O world, according to that fiction. --Ascendron (talk) 10:53, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- I'd been focusing on keeping up with GoBots. I'll give my notes a once-over and see if I can type up some kind of proposal. I agree Kre-O pages shouldn't go anywhere. I think what M Sipher is doing is ideal. We list them in two places and don't make a big deal about it. --Giggidy (talk) 12:13, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- Done. --Giggidy (talk) 18:31, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- Ah, yes. Multi-franchise characters. Have you pitched this on the Community Portal? Between Slicer's Timelines toy, and the wiki's recent softening towards listing continuity families atop of certain mini-cons' pages, I feel you might get the support needed to implement it. Addendum: To make it clear, I"m not advocating for us to get rid of the Kre-O pages. Having separate pages for them is helpful for making sense of the Kre-O supporting fiction, andi illustrates well how, say the G1 Megatron and the Movie Megatron are the same guy in the Kre-O world, according to that fiction. --Ascendron (talk) 10:53, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- That was me. My notes are on my user page. Under current wiki policy, we would absolutely need to declare one Clampdown a repurpose of another. I disagree with this policy and was looking for a better solution. --Giggidy (talk) 10:41, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- Doesn't seem necessary. Wasn't someone working on a page that covered toys that were originally released with the intent of representing multiple characters? It was like repurposing, but not the same. --Ascendron (talk) 10:31, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- Not to mention that the whole argument of using AVP as a source as to why all these things should be separated is a contradiction in of itself. Vector Prime, as he is portrayed in that feature, has basically said that he doesn't really see the difference between versions of characters, or at least doesn't separate them in a system analogous to ours. As far as AVP is concerned, Animated Bulkhead and Prime Bulkhead are basically the same guy. Time and time again, AVP said "don't think too hard about it" for a lot of stuff like that. Now, we separate things according to a system that's meant to facilitate and structurise access to information. Both are important. When the Hasbro guys made Kre-O Clampdown, they were thinking "This is the guy from our new tv show." When kids buy Kre-O Clampdown, they're thinking "this is the guy I saw in the tv show." Heck, most adult collectors probably think the same way. Not including their information on this page is basically us being in denial because we're prioritizing structure over information itself waaaaay too much. As far as I can tell, "Iocus" and "Fornax" are basically just shorthand for "Universes where lots of guys from different franchises can interact without any cross-dimensional stuff happening" and "Universes where characters can swap between different versions of themselves from different universes by switching parts, and interact with characters from different franchise, and everything is made out of lego bricks." --Ascendron (talk) 08:56, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
- They started separated, but putting all these side-line toys in their source character pages had nothing to do with AVP and everything to do with what I said above. AVP is a non-entity in this as far as I'm concerned. --M Sipher (talk) 04:17, 25 October 2015 (EDT)
