Talk:Liege Maximo's tomb
The "Art of Prime" book says the arm was Sentinel Prime's. So, uh, hooray. --ItsWalky (talk) 12:26, 29 December 2013 (EST)
- ha ha ha *sob* --Monzo (talk) 13:44, 29 December 2013 (EST)
- Transformers Prime continuity: Sentinel Prime; Covenant of Primus continuity: Liege Maximo. Easy! (If Hasbro want to convince me that it's all one big continuity, they're going to have to do better with the details. I can't squint hard enough to make Sentinel Prime look like Liege Maximo) --abates (talk) 14:12, 29 December 2013 (EST)
- Only problem with that approach (if you want to consider it a problem) is that Hasbro has already right out and said they have no intention of "doing better with the details" than that, because *they* can squint well enough to see past it and they are considering it all one thing whether they convince you or not. --ZacWilliam (talk) 14:17, 29 December 2013 (EST)
- My point is that when we have two continuities that contradict each other like we do with, say War for Cybertron and Exodus, the contradictory information goes in each section while the introduction remains neutral. What I'm suggesting is that we give this page the name "Dead Prime's tomb", and the Prime cartoon section says the dead Prime was Sentinel, and the Covenant section says it was Liege Maximo. Otherwise we're ignoring the fact that a canon source directly related to the cartoon says that the dead Prime in question is Sentinel. --abates (talk) 15:52, 1 January 2014 (EST)]
- Thing that strikes me about this one is that the Covenant is an in-universe book, that has a character actually identify the tomb as Maximo's. The Art of Prime is an out-of-universe book that only identifies the Prime as Sentinel in a small text caption that's a call-out on a piece of art. Plus as Zac says, Sentinel isn't a real Prime and his arm shouldn't actually convey any power. I'm sure we can get Jim to weigh in on this, but it does feel like it ought to go to Maximo's page with a note. - Chris McFeely (talk) 18:36, 1 January 2014 (EST)
- I would take the exact opposite route - Art of Prime is an objective thing, CoP subjectively comes from a character. I'm with Abates on what should happen. - SanityOrMadness (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2014 (EST)
- I disagree. Isn't our rule on the Wiki that Fiction is king. We do our articles "in fiction" and what is actually in fiction trumps "Authorial Intent." Yes? The CoP IS the in fiction bit here and the Art Book picture label is Authoral intent at best. --ZacWilliam (talk) 20:57, 1 January 2014 (EST)
- I would take the exact opposite route - Art of Prime is an objective thing, CoP subjectively comes from a character. I'm with Abates on what should happen. - SanityOrMadness (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2014 (EST)
- Thing that strikes me about this one is that the Covenant is an in-universe book, that has a character actually identify the tomb as Maximo's. The Art of Prime is an out-of-universe book that only identifies the Prime as Sentinel in a small text caption that's a call-out on a piece of art. Plus as Zac says, Sentinel isn't a real Prime and his arm shouldn't actually convey any power. I'm sure we can get Jim to weigh in on this, but it does feel like it ought to go to Maximo's page with a note. - Chris McFeely (talk) 18:36, 1 January 2014 (EST)
- My point is that when we have two continuities that contradict each other like we do with, say War for Cybertron and Exodus, the contradictory information goes in each section while the introduction remains neutral. What I'm suggesting is that we give this page the name "Dead Prime's tomb", and the Prime cartoon section says the dead Prime was Sentinel, and the Covenant section says it was Liege Maximo. Otherwise we're ignoring the fact that a canon source directly related to the cartoon says that the dead Prime in question is Sentinel. --abates (talk) 15:52, 1 January 2014 (EST)]
- Only problem with that approach (if you want to consider it a problem) is that Hasbro has already right out and said they have no intention of "doing better with the details" than that, because *they* can squint well enough to see past it and they are considering it all one thing whether they convince you or not. --ZacWilliam (talk) 14:17, 29 December 2013 (EST)
- Ooo, thought. In this version of the story Sentinel Prime is not a "Real" Prime. He has no lineage or Matrix to give him claim to that name. He's just a regular bot who took the title. Given that the Cartoon establishes a Prime of the lineage is needed to work the Forge, that May be behind the decision to change it to not be his arm Megs takes. Since his arm shouldn't work it anyway.--ZacWilliam (talk) 14:36, 29 December 2013 (EST)
- Yeah,. but that's the *opposite* tack from the route the cartoon takes - it makes a point of saying Primes are **not** born, they earn the title (Prey/Rebellion has Optimus tell Smokescreen that the Matrix can choose to make him a Prime, and One Shall Fall has Ratchet tell the kids that the title of Prime can only be earned, not inherited or born into. Which as the article notes, is the exact opposite of the "born to rule" creed Optimus gives Megatron in RotF, and which CoP buys into.). - SanityOrMadness (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2014 (EST)
- But that's irrelevant for Sentinel, who never earned the Matrix. Whether Primes are born or made, he was neither. - Chris McFeely (talk) 04:04, 2 January 2014 (EST)
- You're right. I got my Sentinel Primes mixed up. [Still don't like the Covenant's take on it, but still...] - 13:55, 2 January 2014 (EST)
- But that's irrelevant for Sentinel, who never earned the Matrix. Whether Primes are born or made, he was neither. - Chris McFeely (talk) 04:04, 2 January 2014 (EST)
- Yeah,. but that's the *opposite* tack from the route the cartoon takes - it makes a point of saying Primes are **not** born, they earn the title (Prey/Rebellion has Optimus tell Smokescreen that the Matrix can choose to make him a Prime, and One Shall Fall has Ratchet tell the kids that the title of Prime can only be earned, not inherited or born into. Which as the article notes, is the exact opposite of the "born to rule" creed Optimus gives Megatron in RotF, and which CoP buys into.). - SanityOrMadness (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2014 (EST)
Rampant Speculation
[edit]Ok, this doesn't really help with the Sentinel vs. Maximo issue at all, I know. But having just read through this section of the Covenant a second time while working on that article, I have to post a tugging thought...
In the original version of this story that Alpha Trion told in the Irvine Novels we hear that Liege Maximo lived through his betrayal and escaped into space. One of the other Prime's (Amalgamous or Alchemist I think, I forget which) eventually leaves to hunt him down. Here, instead, Maximo appears to have died and it is a repentant Megatronus who leaves for deep space.
Now changes/revisions/retcons to stories like this happen all the time and it completely may just be that. But I was struck a little about the Maximo's fate on the second reading. He's been torn to shreds and his head has been partially destroyed by the Requiem Blaster that Alpha Trion makes a point to say he doesn't remember having fired. It's probably just Thor 2 kicking around in my head but I can't quite dismiss the idea that Maximo faked his death and escaped into space disguised somehow as Megatronus. Then both versions of the story are true.
I know, rampant speculation, and the Arm needs to belong to a Prime for it to function as it did in the Cartoon. The variant fates for the Liege are just another weird disconnect about the whole business on top of the Sentinel thing.--ZacWilliam (talk) 14:10, 29 December 2013 (EST)