Talk:Nightstick (Headmasters)
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I'm going to need to be told that this guy just got officially named "Fracas" in some Masterpiece Artfire bio/promo text, or this is going back where it was. - Chris McFeely (talk) 11:50, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- If the justification for this is "Beast Wars Uprising," then that's certainly questionable, as it says they're the same character, which wouldn't result in a move of this page to this name, but a merge. - Chris McFeely (talk) 12:04, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Uprising. But I thought that people might not want a merge. We don't always keep the same characters on the same page, right? Like, Ultra Magnus and Minimum Ambus. But it's unambiguous that the name of the guy is Fracas. And actually simplifies things considerably. There were a lot of very dumb pages that said things like "Nightstick and his buddy, uh, Nightstick, beat up some Decepticons." when the story in question featured Nightstick and Nebulon. This isn't really controversial, is it, we always put the American names first, even when it makes things more confusing, so in a case where it makes things less confusing it should be a no brainer.--Giggidy (talk) 12:10, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- So if you thought people not want a merge, maybe discuss it first instead of moving a page and altering a bunch more that might have to be reverted? Yes, it's annoying and frustrating that the two characters have the same names, but bending the facts like this doesn't help, not to mention that we really shouldn't be using BWU -- no disrespect to it, but it's a universe where names, characters, and species are thrown in a continuity blender -- as justification for big changes like this. - Chris McFeely (talk) 12:14, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Well, I didn't want to propose a merge because I thought if it was warranted someone else would propose it. It's not always clear when a merge is and isn't warranted, at least to me. But I don't see this as a big change. Do you? We changed all the Japanese fiction for Nebulon when he got a US name, so isn't this exactly the same? If not, it'll take like 2 minutes to revert everything. I'm definitely not bending any facts though. I mean, not any more than any other time we use a US name to describe a Japanese character.--Giggidy (talk) 12:17, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- If this does not merge to the preexisting Fracas page, then that page would need to be moved. All these questions need to be settled before any more pages are moved or links are changed. --Khajidha (talk) 12:33, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Yes, that was to be my next task, moving Fracas to Fracas (G1). I stopped because I saw the debate here. I mean, do people want to merge? They are definitely the same guy in this continuity. But are they always? And which is more accessible to people who are less steeped in the lore? --Giggidy (talk) 12:49, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- My take is that if they are said to be the same in some continuities, then they should be merged UNLESS they are specifically SHOWN to be separate in other continuities. Simply "not being said to be the same" is not the same as "being said not to be the same thing". Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But others disagree. --Khajidha (talk) 13:03, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Either these guys should be merged or else notes should be made of their allegiance and armor change. These pages should not be renamed. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 13:10, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- My take is that if they are said to be the same in some continuities, then they should be merged UNLESS they are specifically SHOWN to be separate in other continuities. Simply "not being said to be the same" is not the same as "being said not to be the same thing". Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But others disagree. --Khajidha (talk) 13:03, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Yes, that was to be my next task, moving Fracas to Fracas (G1). I stopped because I saw the debate here. I mean, do people want to merge? They are definitely the same guy in this continuity. But are they always? And which is more accessible to people who are less steeped in the lore? --Giggidy (talk) 12:49, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- If this does not merge to the preexisting Fracas page, then that page would need to be moved. All these questions need to be settled before any more pages are moved or links are changed. --Khajidha (talk) 12:33, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Well, I didn't want to propose a merge because I thought if it was warranted someone else would propose it. It's not always clear when a merge is and isn't warranted, at least to me. But I don't see this as a big change. Do you? We changed all the Japanese fiction for Nebulon when he got a US name, so isn't this exactly the same? If not, it'll take like 2 minutes to revert everything. I'm definitely not bending any facts though. I mean, not any more than any other time we use a US name to describe a Japanese character.--Giggidy (talk) 12:17, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- So if you thought people not want a merge, maybe discuss it first instead of moving a page and altering a bunch more that might have to be reverted? Yes, it's annoying and frustrating that the two characters have the same names, but bending the facts like this doesn't help, not to mention that we really shouldn't be using BWU -- no disrespect to it, but it's a universe where names, characters, and species are thrown in a continuity blender -- as justification for big changes like this. - Chris McFeely (talk) 12:14, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Uprising. But I thought that people might not want a merge. We don't always keep the same characters on the same page, right? Like, Ultra Magnus and Minimum Ambus. But it's unambiguous that the name of the guy is Fracas. And actually simplifies things considerably. There were a lot of very dumb pages that said things like "Nightstick and his buddy, uh, Nightstick, beat up some Decepticons." when the story in question featured Nightstick and Nebulon. This isn't really controversial, is it, we always put the American names first, even when it makes things more confusing, so in a case where it makes things less confusing it should be a no brainer.--Giggidy (talk) 12:10, 2 December 2016 (EST)
Well, do we move back while we debate what to do? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 13:59, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Okay, I tentatively propose an "American names first" scenario where each Targetmaster partner would be listed under the name they first had in America. Meaning the Japanese original Targetmasters Stepper's "Nebulon" and Artfire's "Nightstick" would be found under "Nightstick (Ricochet)" and "Fracas", respectively. Full break down...
- Nightstick (Cyclonus) - Includes the American G1 Targetmaster (all G1 Cyclonus w/Targetmaster toys) and his Beast Wars: Uprising counterpart.
- Nightstick (Ricochet) - Includes the Japanese G1 Targetmaster "Nebulon", the American reissue with Ricochet, and a redundant BWU section, since "Nightstick the Nebulon" merges the two versions of the character.
- Fracas - Only Fracas page. Includes Scourge's partner, Artfire's partner (originally known as Nightstick), United, Titans Return, and BWU.
- Thoughts? --Xaaron (talk) 14:21, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- It's alright I suppose up until that third part, which sets my teeth grinding. I am completely opposed to a Artfire-partner/Fracas merge. --M Sipher (talk) 14:24, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Merge together Scourge's partner and Artfire's partner but keep Cyclonus's partner and Stepper's partner apart? Ehhhhhhhh. I would prefer both pairings to be merged if we're going by BWU. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 14:27, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- It's alright I suppose up until that third part, which sets my teeth grinding. I am completely opposed to a Artfire-partner/Fracas merge. --M Sipher (talk) 14:24, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- @M Sipher: Because we'd be renaming an entire page based solely on one club micro-continuity's name for the character? Yup, that's a major flaw in the system. So my other suggestion is ignore the "America name first" rule for this one situation, which breaks down as follows...
- Fracas - includes American G1, United, Titans Return, and Beast Wars: Uprising
- Nightstick (Cyclonus) - includes American G1 and BWU
- Nightstick (Artfire) - JG1 only
- Nebulon (Stepper) - includes JG1, Nightstick (Ricochet), and a BWU redundancy for "Nightstick the Nebulon"
- Any other scenarios? --Xaaron (talk) 14:37, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- I'm completely fine with that setup. --M Sipher (talk) 14:42, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Seems a little bit odd to me to have a page for "Nebulon (Stepper)" when our page for Stepper is called "Ricochet". How about the first plan but with a page for "Nightstick (Artfire)" that notes that he's sometimes a version of Fracas? It's a bit unwieldy, but I think it'd be less confusing. --Riptide (talk) 14:59, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Whatever. Primary point: no to merging the Autobot Targetmasters with the Decepticon Targetmasters. --M Sipher (talk) 15:05, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Well, (Stepper) doesn't have to be the disambig. I avoided Nebulon (G1) because of general Nebulans, but it could be Nebulon (Headmasters). --Xaaron (talk) 15:06, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- I'm fine with Xaaron's set up. "Nebulon (Headmasters)" works fine. Saix (talk) 15:40, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- If we keep an independent page for Stepper/Ricochet's partner, then wouldn't it have to be "Nightstick (____)" because of Hasbro naming? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- At this point, I'm more than ready to make an exception. --M Sipher (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Now there's an exception I like. Would we follow that by making Cyclonus's partner "Nightstick (G1)" and Artfire's partner "Nightstick (Headmasters)"? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 16:21, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- At this point, I'm more than ready to make an exception. --M Sipher (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- If we keep an independent page for Stepper/Ricochet's partner, then wouldn't it have to be "Nightstick (____)" because of Hasbro naming? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- I'm fine with Xaaron's set up. "Nebulon (Headmasters)" works fine. Saix (talk) 15:40, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- Seems a little bit odd to me to have a page for "Nebulon (Stepper)" when our page for Stepper is called "Ricochet". How about the first plan but with a page for "Nightstick (Artfire)" that notes that he's sometimes a version of Fracas? It's a bit unwieldy, but I think it'd be less confusing. --Riptide (talk) 14:59, 2 December 2016 (EST)
- I'm completely fine with that setup. --M Sipher (talk) 14:42, 2 December 2016 (EST)