Talk:Victory Leo
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AFAIK, even the original toy doesn't have the 'flight mode' presented in the anime. Takeshi357 01:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- It does, they're in the instructions. --Thylacine 2000 01:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Doesn't look like it to me. Takeshi357 14:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- The 'flight mode' was another mode created for the Japanese G1 cartoons by the animators at Toei. -Mazenoise 10:24, 3 December 2009 (EST)
- Doesn't look like it to me. Takeshi357 14:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Further separation from Ginrai?
[edit]Thanks to HasLab, Victory Leo is about to get a lot more attention than he has for the last few decades. His stand-alone page features almost nothing from the Victory cartoon - most of that is still at Ginrai (robot). Are we sure we want to stick with the current division of info between the two pages? Would it be bad if we ended Ginrai's coverage of the Victory cartoon at the episode where he gets rebuilt and put the subsequent episodes onto VL's page? It also seems a bit questionable to have the VL toys on the Ginrai page... I don't think we do that for most other cases when someone gets reformatted into an entirely different toy, name, and persona (the TFTM reformats, Vehicon generals, etc.). --Thylacine 2000 (talk) 15:06, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
- I concur that a clean break at the reformatting TFTM style would probably make more sense than the current distribution. -AzimuthAcolyte (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
- Cartoon Victory Leo has a clear continuity of consciousness from God Ginrai, and this is the same standard we use for Bumblebee/Goldbug, Convoy/Star Convoy, most Megatron/Galvatrons, Megazarak/Blackzarak, et al. The only reason Victory Leo has a separate article in the first place is because the manga introduced him as a unrelated nobody. The TFTM guys beyond Galvatron were entirely new guys made from dead guys (the specifics of which, fiction can't even agree on) and the Vehicons were shell programs using older characters as batteries. Saix (talk) 15:48, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
- Text from the toy bio: "The reincarnation of God Ginrai, the previous Cybertron Supreme Commander. Born of the Victory Plan thanks to a proposal from the scientist Perceptor. His personality is exactly the same as God Ginrai's was, but in an unguarded moment during the reconstructive surgery, he temporarily lost his memory and turned violent." Pretty explicit there if the cartoon weren't already. Saix (talk) 17:04, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
- Cartoon Victory Leo has a clear continuity of consciousness from God Ginrai, and this is the same standard we use for Bumblebee/Goldbug, Convoy/Star Convoy, most Megatron/Galvatrons, Megazarak/Blackzarak, et al. The only reason Victory Leo has a separate article in the first place is because the manga introduced him as a unrelated nobody. The TFTM guys beyond Galvatron were entirely new guys made from dead guys (the specifics of which, fiction can't even agree on) and the Vehicons were shell programs using older characters as batteries. Saix (talk) 15:48, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
I think the two articles as fine as is. Ginrai gets to keep his life as Leo in one article while the guys who aren't Ginrai get to be separate. MrRald (talk) 16:20, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
- Agreed, this is no different to the likes of Greatshot who has been both an original character and the same character as Sixshot in different continuities. -- Fanofcoolstuff27 (talk) 16:27, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
- I am all for two articles, with all Victory Leo content on Ginrai's page moved over here, cartoon fiction included. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 19:32, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
- Yes Please! Keeping them separate is needlessly pedantic and adds nothing to readability or accessibility. We shouldn't be looking for technical excuses to make the decisions that make the wiki I'm more bizarre and confusing place. And that goes for Greatshot too. --Jimsorenson (talk) 19:35, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
- I am all for two articles, with all Victory Leo content on Ginrai's page moved over here, cartoon fiction included. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 19:32, 8 October 2021 (EDT)
- Another case no one has brought up yet is Tigerhawk and Razorclaw. They are the same guy, with the latter being (an alternate universe version of) the former after having been turned evil by Unicron, a la Universe Blackarachnia but with an added name change (or even more similarly, Kingdom's alternate-timeline Darkarachnia card). In their case, they are on two separate articles of their own, BUT with a suite at the top of each that links them together. A similar situation is also found with Megatron and Megatron X from Cyberverse. We could add Victory Leo to the Ginrai suite and then decide on which page the cartoon write-up goes. We could even make a "Sixshot | Greatshot" suite for those articles too if we wanted. --Sabrblade (talk) 02:29, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- Are we going to do this for Goldbug (IDW) and Mirage (Energon) as well? Those are more direct comparisons, I think. We keep the cartoon write-ups on Bumblebee and Tidal Wave's pages without fuss; the only difference I can see here is some people here conceptualized Victory Leo as a separate guy based on less attachment to the Victory cartoon whereas Goldbug and Mirage being character reformats in their primary portrayals was more accessible in the West. If Victory got released today, would this debate be a thing? Saix (talk) 02:44, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- If he came out today I don't think it would be a debate, I think we would have just given him his own page. But ultimately one guy getting reformatted into a totally different guy with a totally different design and a totally different name and a totally different role in the story is a rare enough occurrence that we can go case-by-case without resorting to dubious slippery slope arguments. We don't need a blanket policy. We can just do what makes sense. In this case, that's a split. We're not coming for your Goldbugs I promise. --Jimsorenson (talk) 08:07, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- I don't care about Goldbug. I'm asking you to articulate the actual difference. You keep conceptualizing Victory Leo as a "totally different guy" when the cartoon and toy bio literally say "this is the same guy as God Ginrai". Saix (talk) 13:43, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- I don't think we need a general criteria but if we did it would come down to something like name, design, role in story, personality, voice. If most of those are the same then they're the same guy. If most of those are different they're not. Victory Leo doesn't look like, sound like (yes I know it's the same actor, voice is different than actor), act like, or serve the same narrative function as God Ginrai. Goldbug does look like Bumblebee, act like Bumblebee, fulfill the same role in the narrative as Bumblebee, and sound like Bumblebee.
- Basically if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it looks like a duck it's a duck. --Jimsorenson (talk) 15:32, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- Tankor spent most of his time as an awakened Rhinox with Rhinox's voice and saying things like "I'm not quite the Maximal I once was.". And they (correctly) get two pages just because the whole packaging and presentation and roles are different. As Jim observed, there may not be one single objective policy that covers all reformatted / reborn characters. I want to make sure I am being clear when I say I'm only bringing this up because there's about to be a lot of new attention from new people on VL. I wouldn't be surprised if clickbait media like Gizmodo or Kotaku write about VL. Sending potentially thousands of new readers to a page that only goes into detail about the manga, while hinting at the cartoon but not going into detail about it, is only going to lead to confusion. Are they best served being told to skim down for the life of VL two thirds of the way down the page about a truck guy? My preference is still for a full Rhinox-to-Tankor content split, but I'd call Sabrblade's suggestion of a Tigerhawk suite also worthwhile. --Thylacine 2000 (talk) 15:55, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- @Jim: Hmm, if we were to go by that, then Leobreaker would have to be split from Overhaul since his name, design, role in story (he's given far more prominence and even command positions), and (slightly) his voice all change from when he was Overhaul. Only his personality remains the same. --Sabrblade (talk) 16:00, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- Ditto for Energon Mirage and Snow Cat. Again, this is seeming to boil down to VL being a older Japanese character while the other examples are more contemporary to the wiki and more well-known to us as Westerners. A kid in 1989 who read the bio on his Victory Leo toy and watched the cartoon isn’t going to conceptualize him as a different guy to God Ginrai just like how kids in 2004 didn’t think Mirage was a different guy to Tidal Wave despite the different appearance, name, and behavior in the cartoon. (And, once again, VL doesn’t act differently to GG.) Saix (talk) 16:24, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- Actually the opposite. I'm not intimately familiar with the Unicron Trilogy stuff so I'm not commenting on it but I know Victory well. Victory And Masterforce are nearer and dearer to my heart than Armada and Cybertron. Victory I encountered earlier in my fandom, back in the 90s. And yes, Victory Leo acts VERY differently than Ginrai who was mostly defined by his reluctance to get involved with the conflict at all and coming to terms with his position as de facto leader. V.L. does precisely none of that. --Jimsorenson (talk) 16:59, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- That was human Ginrai's character arc that was resolved by the end of Masterforce. Robot Ginrai in Victory is primarily defined by being fond of Jan/Holi and wanting to useful to Star Saber. Which ultimately fulfilled by being turned into Star Saber's power-up. From the first episode of Victory on, he never shirks from leadership and wanting to fight the Decepticons. Saix (talk) 12:30, 12 October 2021 (EDT)
- Actually the opposite. I'm not intimately familiar with the Unicron Trilogy stuff so I'm not commenting on it but I know Victory well. Victory And Masterforce are nearer and dearer to my heart than Armada and Cybertron. Victory I encountered earlier in my fandom, back in the 90s. And yes, Victory Leo acts VERY differently than Ginrai who was mostly defined by his reluctance to get involved with the conflict at all and coming to terms with his position as de facto leader. V.L. does precisely none of that. --Jimsorenson (talk) 16:59, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- Ditto for Energon Mirage and Snow Cat. Again, this is seeming to boil down to VL being a older Japanese character while the other examples are more contemporary to the wiki and more well-known to us as Westerners. A kid in 1989 who read the bio on his Victory Leo toy and watched the cartoon isn’t going to conceptualize him as a different guy to God Ginrai just like how kids in 2004 didn’t think Mirage was a different guy to Tidal Wave despite the different appearance, name, and behavior in the cartoon. (And, once again, VL doesn’t act differently to GG.) Saix (talk) 16:24, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- @Jim: Hmm, if we were to go by that, then Leobreaker would have to be split from Overhaul since his name, design, role in story (he's given far more prominence and even command positions), and (slightly) his voice all change from when he was Overhaul. Only his personality remains the same. --Sabrblade (talk) 16:00, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- I don't care about Goldbug. I'm asking you to articulate the actual difference. You keep conceptualizing Victory Leo as a "totally different guy" when the cartoon and toy bio literally say "this is the same guy as God Ginrai". Saix (talk) 13:43, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- If he came out today I don't think it would be a debate, I think we would have just given him his own page. But ultimately one guy getting reformatted into a totally different guy with a totally different design and a totally different name and a totally different role in the story is a rare enough occurrence that we can go case-by-case without resorting to dubious slippery slope arguments. We don't need a blanket policy. We can just do what makes sense. In this case, that's a split. We're not coming for your Goldbugs I promise. --Jimsorenson (talk) 08:07, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
- Are we going to do this for Goldbug (IDW) and Mirage (Energon) as well? Those are more direct comparisons, I think. We keep the cartoon write-ups on Bumblebee and Tidal Wave's pages without fuss; the only difference I can see here is some people here conceptualized Victory Leo as a separate guy based on less attachment to the Victory cartoon whereas Goldbug and Mirage being character reformats in their primary portrayals was more accessible in the West. If Victory got released today, would this debate be a thing? Saix (talk) 02:44, 9 October 2021 (EDT)
I forgot to post this the other day, but I personally don't care which page gets the info. I do think, however, that adding Victory Leo's page to the Ginrai suite would make sense. Keeping all of the relevant info together in the one place, with a simple tab to distinguish the two iterations just feels more user-friendly. I feel the same should also be done with Sixshot and Greatshot. Again, I don't care which page gets the info, but keeping them at a close enough reach, while also keeping the separate origins apart to better distinguish them, just makes the most sense to me. -- Fanofcoolstuff27 (talk) 23:20, 16 October 2021 (EDT)
In the caption for the Haslab Victory Saber picture on both this page and the main Ginrai (Robot) page, there is a hyperlink to Victory Leo Notes, but Victory Leo does not have a notes section, and none of the notes on either Ginrai page seem to connect to the caption. -- Catsukki (talk) 11:34, 14 March 2023 (PDT)