Talk:Vigilem
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Talk:Carcer
[edit]Ok, right now we basically have an issue where both Carcer and Tempo articles are written as if they're the current ship Elita-1 is on. Obviously, both cannot be true, but at the same time, we don't know the whole truth. What do we do about this? ZeroSD (talk) 21:09, 23 September 2015 (EDT)
- Wait it out. We can correct the articles are new things are reveale in the upcoming issues. --Ascendron (talk) 23:39, 23 September 2015 (EDT)
- I guess YMMV for now, but my thinking is that how could Metroplex have screwed up sending Windblade and Starscream to Tempo? Hasn't he demonstrated that he knows his brethren's energy signatures? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 23:44, 23 September 2015 (EDT)
- Plus the current crew do say their ship was once Tempo. Which seems to independently confirm Metroplex's rating that 'Carcer' is Tempo, while original recipe Carcer is a hanging mystery.ZeroSD (talk) 01:14, 24 September 2015 (EDT)
- Given their MO, I'd say it's more like likely the idea is that they've cannibalized Tempo and Carcer together. It's Tempo's space bridge, hence Metroplex's viewpoint, but it's part of the Carcer/Tempo composite, which Elita's crew call Carcer because he was their Titan. All just speculation at this point, of course. - Chris McFeely (talk) 11:58, 24 September 2015 (EDT)
- Do we have any indication it's a composite...? Visually it seems pretty singular, and Titan core components like reactor and brain would be from just one of 'em, so even if some parts of one were used on the other, it'd still be mostly one. Elita said there was a name change. Or to put it another way, this article should probably be something along the lines of Carcer (Tempo), and the other article should be Carcer (original). Because the one thing that both Metroplex and Elita are in line on, is that current Carcer is/was Tempo.ZeroSD (talk) 00:02, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
- Given the evidence we do have, though, shouldn't we assume for now that the Titan featured in Windblade vol. 2 #7 is Tempo? The shape of the ship in the issue matches Metroplex's archive footage of Tempo's departure. And a page header in the issue says "Titan ship Tempo". Aren't those headers typically done deliberately, like how MTMTE #35 didn't give a timeframe indicator until the best point in the story to do so? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 20:10, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
- And Elita-1's exact words on top. "This is that ship, but we are not those people." emphasis mine. The comics seems to agree that the ship in 7 is/was Tempo. The question seems to be, how do we handle that article wise?ZeroSD (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
- When I was writing the article, I was under the impression that Carcer had killed Tempo and then just stole his parts, like what Chris said above. I mean, Elita's whole thing is that she's lying about the origins of her ship, so I don't think we can take anything she says as gospel for the time being. Grum (talk) 22:22, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
- I don't know where that is coming from, honestly. Nothing in the comic indicated so, no mention of it looking like it was made from two Titans, and Windblade thought she was telling a truth but leaving something out (perhaps, say, simply conquering Tempo and replacing it's crew). We have an independent source in Metroplex saying 'this is Tempo'. 'Current-Carcer isn't Tempo' is, like Chris mentioned, speculation, right now the official sources line up.ZeroSD (talk) 22:57, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
- When I was writing the article, I was under the impression that Carcer had killed Tempo and then just stole his parts, like what Chris said above. I mean, Elita's whole thing is that she's lying about the origins of her ship, so I don't think we can take anything she says as gospel for the time being. Grum (talk) 22:22, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
- And Elita-1's exact words on top. "This is that ship, but we are not those people." emphasis mine. The comics seems to agree that the ship in 7 is/was Tempo. The question seems to be, how do we handle that article wise?ZeroSD (talk) 22:03, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
- Given the evidence we do have, though, shouldn't we assume for now that the Titan featured in Windblade vol. 2 #7 is Tempo? The shape of the ship in the issue matches Metroplex's archive footage of Tempo's departure. And a page header in the issue says "Titan ship Tempo". Aren't those headers typically done deliberately, like how MTMTE #35 didn't give a timeframe indicator until the best point in the story to do so? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 20:10, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
- Do we have any indication it's a composite...? Visually it seems pretty singular, and Titan core components like reactor and brain would be from just one of 'em, so even if some parts of one were used on the other, it'd still be mostly one. Elita said there was a name change. Or to put it another way, this article should probably be something along the lines of Carcer (Tempo), and the other article should be Carcer (original). Because the one thing that both Metroplex and Elita are in line on, is that current Carcer is/was Tempo.ZeroSD (talk) 00:02, 25 September 2015 (EDT)
- Given their MO, I'd say it's more like likely the idea is that they've cannibalized Tempo and Carcer together. It's Tempo's space bridge, hence Metroplex's viewpoint, but it's part of the Carcer/Tempo composite, which Elita's crew call Carcer because he was their Titan. All just speculation at this point, of course. - Chris McFeely (talk) 11:58, 24 September 2015 (EDT)
- Plus the current crew do say their ship was once Tempo. Which seems to independently confirm Metroplex's rating that 'Carcer' is Tempo, while original recipe Carcer is a hanging mystery.ZeroSD (talk) 01:14, 24 September 2015 (EDT)
- I guess YMMV for now, but my thinking is that how could Metroplex have screwed up sending Windblade and Starscream to Tempo? Hasn't he demonstrated that he knows his brethren's energy signatures? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 23:44, 23 September 2015 (EDT)
I still don't see how we're supposed to think that current-Carcer is anything but Tempo. It's not presented as a mystery, Metroplex serves as independent confirmation, and Elita-1 agrees with it. Now there are mysteries as to how, why, etc., plenty of mysteries, but Carcer-is-Tempo is not particular ambiguous, two characters said it.ZeroSD (talk) 14:06, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- I don't know why you're presenting Metroplex as infallible—he could incorrectly think it's Tempo for whatever reason. The point is that it's a mystery and we don't have all of the details. Saix (talk) 14:42, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- I'm not, I'm saying as-of yet we have no reason to doubt him and his report and Elita-1's report agree. Metroplex says, "This is Tempo, it has Tempo's signature." Elita-1 says "This was Tempo." The mystery is "What the heck happened to the original Carcer? How did Tempo become Carcer? Where did Tempo's philosophers go?". Saying it's not formerly Tempo is speculation that doesn't line up with either source, no-one has said it's not Tempo. The mystery isn't the part everyone agrees on, it's the parts very conspicuously left out and the questions they raise.ZeroSD (talk) 17:23, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- And again, I'm pointing out that Carcer's body is made up of patchwork parts of other robots. I think it's plenty clear what happened to Tempo and why Metroplex thought that's who it was. You're treating Elita as if she's telling the truth, but Elita is lying by omission, and Windblade knows she's lying. The story specifically leads us to the conclusion that we are not to trust what Elita tells us in regards to the name of the Titan. - Chris McFeely (talk) 17:30, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- One, that it's made of different titans rather than simply having a patched hull from other repair sources is still speculative, especially since we're talking about the innate connection between Titans that's the main info source here. Two, that'd still leave Tempo as the core of the current one. And three, omission is the key word there. Yes, we're shown not to trust Elita-1 to tell us everything, but no reason to not trust Metroplex. While Carcer could, possibly, be part of Tempo-Carcer, that is speculative, unstated, while Elita-1 says it's Tempo renamed (not 'Tempo and Carcer merged') and Metroplex's titan-sense says it's Tempo. In order for current Carcer to not be Tempo, Elita must outright be lying, not just by omission but in base fact, and Metroplex must be wrong at the same time. While it's possible that there's significant Carcer parts in there as well as Tempo, we should wait until the comic says so, not put in what we merely suspect. The mystery of what happened is an Agent 113 situation, and 'Carcer is merged into Tempo' is a Skids/current Vos/Counterpunch type conclusion.ZeroSD (talk) 18:39, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- Your actions confuse me, ZeroSD. Here on the talk page you acknowledge the fact that Elita One is lying about something and that there are 2 Titans, but your edit would have the opening of the page be Elita One's lie. In any event, I'm with Chris and Saix on keeping the opening as it is now. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- I really don't get why you're so hung up on this, Zero. The clear answer is that Metroplex is mistaken because of whatever secret Elita is hiding. As I've said, it's my belief - telegraphed by the story - that the ship is Carcer, whose crew has integrated parts of Tempo's body into him - specifically including Tempo's space bridge, which is how Metroplex detects the ship and why he thinks it is Tempo and not Carcer. But regardless, I am not incorporating my speculation into the article, nor have I planned to at any stage. - Chris McFeely (talk) 19:04, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- SHIELD, Chris, Elita is specifically doing a lie of *omission*, she is not telling us something. What she outright says is not only assumed to be true by their rules of truthfulness, but corroborated by an outside source, Metroplex, who has no reason to lie, and Windblade, indeed, believes Elita-1 is telling the truth about 'Carcer' being Tempo. I have an issue for speculation that goes against two separate character's independent statements to be taken as an assumption. No-one's said anything to indicate that current-Carcer is original Carcer rather than Tempo, and I'm having a hard time seeing why so many people are convinced that it isn't.
- Precise lines, emphasis mine: "Umm... we had your ship registered as Tempo." "An old name that no longer applies. This is that ship, but we are not those people." "Elita-1 may be telling the truth, but she's not telling all of it." Someone tell me where you're getting 'Tempo is not Carcer' in that or elsewhere in the issue. That does not read like a telegraphed 'the ship is Carcer with bits of Tempo,' that's speculation (again, of the 'Agent 113 is X' variety), which is even somewhat contradictory with the 'This is that Ship' statement. That's multiple characters who all believe that they are on the ship formerly known as Tempo. ZeroSD (talk) 19:09, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- Nobody's saying Metroplex is lying. He thinks it's Tempo. And we're saying he's wrong, because Elita is hiding something that explains why he mistakenly thinks that - because the story reveals to us at its end that Tempo and Carcer are separate beings, and that something creepy and sinister is going on. Metroplex's mistake corroborates Elita's lie.- Chris McFeely (talk) 19:18, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- But that doesn't follow that it's not Tempo at all- that follows that the Carcerbots jumped and took over Tempo or something along those lines. You're assuming both that (1) Metroplex is wrong about the ship (speculative, unstated), and (2) Elita-1 is doing a lie of substance and not a lie of omission (again, speculative)- which is not what Windblade believes, Windblade believes she is telling a literal truth. Elita outright stated that they are on Tempo, if you're saying they're not on Tempo, then you're contradicting something that three narrative points say is a literal if incomplete truth. The one thing we are told, from multiple sources, is fact. If you're going to assume a multiple-point established as fact thing is wrong, you need more than a fan theory without any dialog backing up the idea of a titan merger. ZeroSD (talk) 19:26, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- Nobody's saying Metroplex is lying. He thinks it's Tempo. And we're saying he's wrong, because Elita is hiding something that explains why he mistakenly thinks that - because the story reveals to us at its end that Tempo and Carcer are separate beings, and that something creepy and sinister is going on. Metroplex's mistake corroborates Elita's lie.- Chris McFeely (talk) 19:18, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- I really don't get why you're so hung up on this, Zero. The clear answer is that Metroplex is mistaken because of whatever secret Elita is hiding. As I've said, it's my belief - telegraphed by the story - that the ship is Carcer, whose crew has integrated parts of Tempo's body into him - specifically including Tempo's space bridge, which is how Metroplex detects the ship and why he thinks it is Tempo and not Carcer. But regardless, I am not incorporating my speculation into the article, nor have I planned to at any stage. - Chris McFeely (talk) 19:04, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- Your actions confuse me, ZeroSD. Here on the talk page you acknowledge the fact that Elita One is lying about something and that there are 2 Titans, but your edit would have the opening of the page be Elita One's lie. In any event, I'm with Chris and Saix on keeping the opening as it is now. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 18:57, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- One, that it's made of different titans rather than simply having a patched hull from other repair sources is still speculative, especially since we're talking about the innate connection between Titans that's the main info source here. Two, that'd still leave Tempo as the core of the current one. And three, omission is the key word there. Yes, we're shown not to trust Elita-1 to tell us everything, but no reason to not trust Metroplex. While Carcer could, possibly, be part of Tempo-Carcer, that is speculative, unstated, while Elita-1 says it's Tempo renamed (not 'Tempo and Carcer merged') and Metroplex's titan-sense says it's Tempo. In order for current Carcer to not be Tempo, Elita must outright be lying, not just by omission but in base fact, and Metroplex must be wrong at the same time. While it's possible that there's significant Carcer parts in there as well as Tempo, we should wait until the comic says so, not put in what we merely suspect. The mystery of what happened is an Agent 113 situation, and 'Carcer is merged into Tempo' is a Skids/current Vos/Counterpunch type conclusion.ZeroSD (talk) 18:39, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- And again, I'm pointing out that Carcer's body is made up of patchwork parts of other robots. I think it's plenty clear what happened to Tempo and why Metroplex thought that's who it was. You're treating Elita as if she's telling the truth, but Elita is lying by omission, and Windblade knows she's lying. The story specifically leads us to the conclusion that we are not to trust what Elita tells us in regards to the name of the Titan. - Chris McFeely (talk) 17:30, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- I'm not, I'm saying as-of yet we have no reason to doubt him and his report and Elita-1's report agree. Metroplex says, "This is Tempo, it has Tempo's signature." Elita-1 says "This was Tempo." The mystery is "What the heck happened to the original Carcer? How did Tempo become Carcer? Where did Tempo's philosophers go?". Saying it's not formerly Tempo is speculation that doesn't line up with either source, no-one has said it's not Tempo. The mystery isn't the part everyone agrees on, it's the parts very conspicuously left out and the questions they raise.ZeroSD (talk) 17:23, 24 November 2015 (EST)
ZeroSD (talk) 19:26, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- I believe the story is leading us to conclude that Metroplex is wrong as a result of whatever truth Elita is obfuscating. I do not believe my conceit that Tempo got chopped up and spliced into Carcer is incompatible with Elita's statement, in a sinister "you told me Darth Vader killed my father"/"what I told you was true from a certain point of view" way, and that that is the point of what is going on. You believe otherwise. We'll find out what's really going on in a couple of months, I'm sure, but in the meantime, I think the way the articles are set up now accurately reflects the mystery of the situation as the comic presents it to us - I have no intentions of putting anything about the Titans being merged into the articles because, yes, that's just my theory, but to make the articles say "It's Tempo and they just renamed it" presents as fact what the story tells us is at best only a partial truth. - Chris McFeely (talk) 19:36, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- "I believe the story is leading us to conclude that Metroplex is wrong as a result of whatever truth Elita is obfuscating." That's simply not what the story says, though. Even the person who's heard both sides, Windblade, doesn't believe that, she explicitly believes that Elita-1 is saying something literally true, and she does not doubt windblade. I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying that what should be in the article is what we know, and that if you want a merged-titan/not-tempo theory, you need to wait before it goes in, and right now the state of the page is contradicting what Windblade believes to be true about both Elita and Metroplex's statement by indicating that Carcer is not Tempo. We as readers are privvy to no information that Windblade doesn't have in this case, so why again are we assuming she's wrong? And thus also leaving out mention of the definite mysteries, of 'what the heck happened.'ZeroSD (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- I don't think I have anything to add to what I've said. My theory on what's going to happen doesn't matter. I think the articles as they are currently written present the situation to readers with the level of ambiguity the comic intends to convey. - Chris McFeely (talk) 20:06, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- Considering a character with all the facts we have has a distinct opinion on the issue, I believe that's being misleading. Not leaving it out *only* makes sense if they're merged... and sure, it's your theory, and it's hypothetically possible, but it's just not in WB7, Windblade flat-out says she believes Elita is being truthful about Carcer being Tempo, no-one thinks they're merged. When you're arguing that what a character state unambiguously to be believed true, by someone who knows as much as us, should not be in the article.... ZeroSD (talk) 18:49, 25 November 2015 (EST)
- Put any idea of my theory from your mind. My theory is not important. The idea that you interpret Windblade saying "Elita is not telling us the whole truth" to mean that she unambiguously believes that Carcer and Tempo are the same ship after literally just stating that they are the names of two separate entities is where we disagree. She does not "flat-out believe" Elita, and that's not a theory - I do not consider the comic to be telling us that she does. I have nothing more I can say, and I bow out of this discussion in favour of others hopefully weighing in. - Chris McFeely (talk) 19:09, 25 November 2015 (EST)
- Except she literally says she believes what Elita did say is true, and the part we're discussing isn't the unstated stuff, it's the stated stuff, whether or not Carcer is Tempo (WB's opinion: Yes)... and we still have Metroplex as a corroborating third party, of which Windblade's doubt of getting a full story doesn't undermine one bit, so we don't even have to rely on Elita's statement. What's in the comic should be in the page, and if we find out differently later, we can change it then.
- Put any idea of my theory from your mind. My theory is not important. The idea that you interpret Windblade saying "Elita is not telling us the whole truth" to mean that she unambiguously believes that Carcer and Tempo are the same ship after literally just stating that they are the names of two separate entities is where we disagree. She does not "flat-out believe" Elita, and that's not a theory - I do not consider the comic to be telling us that she does. I have nothing more I can say, and I bow out of this discussion in favour of others hopefully weighing in. - Chris McFeely (talk) 19:09, 25 November 2015 (EST)
- Considering a character with all the facts we have has a distinct opinion on the issue, I believe that's being misleading. Not leaving it out *only* makes sense if they're merged... and sure, it's your theory, and it's hypothetically possible, but it's just not in WB7, Windblade flat-out says she believes Elita is being truthful about Carcer being Tempo, no-one thinks they're merged. When you're arguing that what a character state unambiguously to be believed true, by someone who knows as much as us, should not be in the article.... ZeroSD (talk) 18:49, 25 November 2015 (EST)
- I don't think I have anything to add to what I've said. My theory on what's going to happen doesn't matter. I think the articles as they are currently written present the situation to readers with the level of ambiguity the comic intends to convey. - Chris McFeely (talk) 20:06, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- "I believe the story is leading us to conclude that Metroplex is wrong as a result of whatever truth Elita is obfuscating." That's simply not what the story says, though. Even the person who's heard both sides, Windblade, doesn't believe that, she explicitly believes that Elita-1 is saying something literally true, and she does not doubt windblade. I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying that what should be in the article is what we know, and that if you want a merged-titan/not-tempo theory, you need to wait before it goes in, and right now the state of the page is contradicting what Windblade believes to be true about both Elita and Metroplex's statement by indicating that Carcer is not Tempo. We as readers are privvy to no information that Windblade doesn't have in this case, so why again are we assuming she's wrong? And thus also leaving out mention of the definite mysteries, of 'what the heck happened.'ZeroSD (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2015 (EST)
- I believe the story is leading us to conclude that Metroplex is wrong as a result of whatever truth Elita is obfuscating. I do not believe my conceit that Tempo got chopped up and spliced into Carcer is incompatible with Elita's statement, in a sinister "you told me Darth Vader killed my father"/"what I told you was true from a certain point of view" way, and that that is the point of what is going on. You believe otherwise. We'll find out what's really going on in a couple of months, I'm sure, but in the meantime, I think the way the articles are set up now accurately reflects the mystery of the situation as the comic presents it to us - I have no intentions of putting anything about the Titans being merged into the articles because, yes, that's just my theory, but to make the articles say "It's Tempo and they just renamed it" presents as fact what the story tells us is at best only a partial truth. - Chris McFeely (talk) 19:36, 24 November 2015 (EST)
If someone can point out a single quote that says anyone in the comic believes Carcer isn't Tempo, I'll drop it. If not, it should get changed back, because otherwise it's misleading and only fits if things not yet said by anyone in the comic (and thus should not be used by us editors) are true. Even if you believe there's hints to other stuff, that's what we have written down in front of us now.
Seriously, how are we having such a contentious debate on what is true when the characters say they believe it to be true....?ZeroSD (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2015 (EST)
- Chris is right. The comic is purposefully leading us to believe that Carcer and Tempo are not the same entity. --ItsWalky (talk) 22:35, 25 November 2015 (EST)
Forgive me for not reading...well, ANYTHING above me. Has anyone suggested just having a single article right now labeled Carcer/Tempo or Tempo/Carcer? It is ONE mystery, and doesn't really need separate pages at the moment. Keep everything on one page until we learn what to separate out for each Titan, if two Titans there be. --Xaaron (talk) 23:58, 25 November 2015 (EST)
- ItsWalky- I'm the one arguing that they're different entities, that current Carcer is Tempo-renamed and original Carcer is something else (likely gone), Chris is the one arguing that they're the same/merged somehow and that original-Carcer and this Tempo-Carcer are one and the same. Xaaron- That makes sense to me. ZeroSD (talk) 17:14, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- ZeroSD, I'm honestly having a hard time understanding what you are advocating. I think the article is basically fine as is and should not be changed. I'm pretty sure that's what Cris and Walky suggesting as well. --Giggidy (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- Same here. I agree with Chris and Walky that the article is fine right now and accurately captures the details of the comic, which I just re-read. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 18:53, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- Ok, to phrase it in a different way: There is original Tempo and Original Carcer. Everyone here seems to be assuming Elita-1's ship is original Carcer. Metroplex's data and Elita's admission both say that Elita-1's ship is original Tempo. Windblade believes that Elita's statement is a partial truth, not a complete fabrication. SHIELD, you just read the comic- what am I missing? Elita-1 of the culture that values truth and hate lies, basically says, 'This is Carcer, formerly known as Tempo,' implying but not outright stating they were the original crew that changed their ways and changed the name. Windblade goes, 'Ah ha, due to knowing what Metroplex told me, I know that is an incomplete truth.' Everyone here seems to be thinking Metroplex is flat-out wrong, when that's not what Windblade says. Can you, or someone else, point to a line that indicates Elita's Carcer is original Carcer, and not Carcer's-Crew-On-Tempo-with-a-mystery-as-to-how-they-moved-over? Because it seems to me like people are downplaying the emphasis on truth we were told about, the narrative strongly indicates that Elita may do lies-of-omission but is unlikely to say a clearly false fact.ZeroSD (talk) 19:02, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- The whole point of this plot is that it's supposed to be a mystery - we aren't supposed to know who's telling the truth, who's lying, who's mistaken, etc. We can't take anybody's words at face value for the time being; when we inevitably receive more information about all of this then we can change/merge/rework the article(s). Anything else is just jumping the gun and potentially spreading misinformation. Grum (talk) 19:23, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- But what we're supposed to accept as true and what's unknown is part of the hints of the mystery... And the article's written not particularly ambiguously, it's written as if Elita's Carcer is assumed to be the originalCarcer that launched from Cybertron (and Tempo's getting a separate article when Tempo-is-Carcer is one of the most likely possibilities, to say the least). At *least* have it ambiguous like Xaaron recommended. ZeroSD (talk) 19:44, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- Ok, to phrase it in a different way: There is original Tempo and Original Carcer. Everyone here seems to be assuming Elita-1's ship is original Carcer. Metroplex's data and Elita's admission both say that Elita-1's ship is original Tempo. Windblade believes that Elita's statement is a partial truth, not a complete fabrication. SHIELD, you just read the comic- what am I missing? Elita-1 of the culture that values truth and hate lies, basically says, 'This is Carcer, formerly known as Tempo,' implying but not outright stating they were the original crew that changed their ways and changed the name. Windblade goes, 'Ah ha, due to knowing what Metroplex told me, I know that is an incomplete truth.' Everyone here seems to be thinking Metroplex is flat-out wrong, when that's not what Windblade says. Can you, or someone else, point to a line that indicates Elita's Carcer is original Carcer, and not Carcer's-Crew-On-Tempo-with-a-mystery-as-to-how-they-moved-over? Because it seems to me like people are downplaying the emphasis on truth we were told about, the narrative strongly indicates that Elita may do lies-of-omission but is unlikely to say a clearly false fact.ZeroSD (talk) 19:02, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- Same here. I agree with Chris and Walky that the article is fine right now and accurately captures the details of the comic, which I just re-read. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 18:53, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- ZeroSD, I'm honestly having a hard time understanding what you are advocating. I think the article is basically fine as is and should not be changed. I'm pretty sure that's what Cris and Walky suggesting as well. --Giggidy (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- ItsWalky- I'm the one arguing that they're different entities, that current Carcer is Tempo-renamed and original Carcer is something else (likely gone), Chris is the one arguing that they're the same/merged somehow and that original-Carcer and this Tempo-Carcer are one and the same. Xaaron- That makes sense to me. ZeroSD (talk) 17:14, 27 November 2015 (EST)
Stop. Just. Stop. --M Sipher (talk) 23:55, 27 November 2015 (EST)
- I'm not going to try editing again til Til All Are One comes out, but I'll point out of the people posting here, two think it's Tempo, three thinks it's originalCarcer, and three have said it's uncertain as to which of the two Titans it is, so it's gonna bug me that we don't even have an uncertain stance on the page. As I see it, there's no reason I can figure for Elita to say it was Tempo if it wasn't Tempo (with the mystery being 'how? why?'), and I think people are kinda made up their own mystery on a part that wasn't supposed to be so uncertain, but I am sitting on my hands til then. ZeroSD (talk) 01:10, 6 December 2015 (EST)
Merge
[edit]Given TAAO #8 confirms that Carcer wasn't a real colony titan, to the point where Metroplex knew who it was immediately, it seems prudent to merge this article with Vigilem's
Eire 15.08 EDT Wednesday 29th 2017
Carcer
[edit]Given what we know about Vigilem in the new issue, do we transfer most of Carcer's data onto this page or not? Jcbynum1 (talk) 23:32, 8 February 2017 (EST)
- We could probably stand to wait until we know more. --ItsWalky (talk) 23:45, 8 February 2017 (EST)
- Can everyone just like, squash down the boner to move every page at the slightest hint of change while ignoring that the ongoing fiction is very likely going to reveal more unexpected mysteries that might make huge moves really pointless like it has done repeatedly in the past? Maybe? Perhaps? --M Sipher (talk) 13:59, 9 February 2017 (EST)
Er, in retrospect, should I undo my edit until more info comes out? Or is the page fine for now as it is? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 14:16, 9 February 2017 (EST)
Ascenticon?
[edit]Maybe it's a degree of separation too many, but we consider The Rise to be affiliated with the Ascenticons, and Vigilem seems to subscribe to Megatron's rhetoric via Skystalker (why be less than we can be and such). We don't know Vigilem's exact motives for leaving Cybertron after the Tether incident, but I'd imagine it was because the heat was on him and Thunderwing lets him dock at Hexagon to get in with the Ascenticons/Decepticons. Is there anything that specifically says Vigilem isn't an Ascenticon? Nu-Priest (talk) 15:28, 25 March 2022 (EDT)
- I think it's too much of a stretch given that a) Vigilem was explicitly asleep for the entire Ascenticon crisis, having only been woken up specifically to carry out the Tether mission, and b) it's pretty clear that his mind is very far gone, to the point where it could be argued that he doesn't really know what he's doing or why. Grum (talk) 16:01, 25 March 2022 (EDT)
- I'm willing to concede it's vague, but I just think it leans more towards "yes" than no. I don't have the issue in front of me, but I think Slipstream even says that Vigilem is loyal to "the cause" or something to that effect. Skystalker had been talking to him before he woke for the Tether operation in whatever case. Nu-Priest (talk) 18:41, 25 March 2022 (EDT)