Template talk:Apocrypha

Draft 1

notes

{{apocrypha}} is a template to be used in the rare event of an unofficial piece of fiction from an official creator that is is so informative as to the creator's thought process and/or so influential to the fandom as to be worth documenting. All information on these pages falls into the gray area between canon and non-canon that is pseudocanon. Note that the vast, vast, VAST majority of unofficial work is considered to be non-germane to this wiki. Before using this template, reach a broad consensus on an appropriate talk page to ensure that the work in question legitimately qualifies as pseudocanon.

template

This is Apocrypha

The content of this page is considered to be apocryphal. While the vast, vast, VAST majority of unofficial work is considered to be non-germane to this wiki, occasionally an unofficial piece of fiction from an official creator is so informative as to the creator's thought process and/or so influential to the fandom as to be worth documenting. All information on this page falls into the gray area between canon and non-canon that is pseudocanon.

Draft 1 Discussion

OK, I think that this is a decent starting point for an Apocrypha template. It would be used for pages like Hail and Farewell, Dead Men's Boots and Alignment. I tried to include adequate cautions against its misuse, both in the documentation of the template and in the actual template itself. Thoughts? --Jimsorenson 00:27, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

We should add a good image to this template. First thoughts: Paddles or Something from Furman's unnofficiall G2 tie-up story...--99.103.104.139 13:44, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

I'd almost say change it to Template: Legends and use the Transformers Legends logo as the picture. --Khajidha 13:57, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

It would be totally inappropriate to suggest Legends or its characters like Paddles are as "apocryphal" as a fanfic story like Alignment. Legends had all the same Hasbro trademarks and official publication process as any ROTF storybook. The idea that it somehow "doesn't count" is just Cian's paradoxical "Sideswipe-died-in-TFTM" Johnny Come Lately bullshit and should be ignored. --Thylacine 2000 14:16, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

I was just about to say the opposite. As written, this template only addresses unofficial-but-relevant sources. But I think it could do double duty and also cover official stuff that declares itself non-canon, such as "Legends" and the published Mosaics. - Jackpot 18:56, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

Does Legends really declare itself to be non-canon? I don't have the book, but there is a quote on the Transformers Legends page that says, "...none of the stories in this volume are part of continuity...". It sounds like it is establishing the stories as not part of existing continuity, as if to say, "treat these as micro-continuities". I think that is what he was trying to get across anyway. - Starfield 20:53, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

The idea of "declared itself non-canon" is totally irrelevant. We have never ever followed such a standard here before, and rightfully so. If Hasbro made a TF toy on which the painted deco read "This is not a Transformer," would we leave it off the wiki, or give it some stupid "disclaimer" at the top? Of course not, we'd just make a note of the ironic joke and treat it no differently from all the rest of the line. I object in the strongest possible terms to placing such incredibly undue weight on the matter of author intent that for the first and only time ever, standard TF characters and fiction that went through the same standard publication process as everything else ever would be somehow treated as different, all because of some paradoxical and ill-informed blather from a guy who is contradicting essential and foundational elements of the TF mythos. We KNOW how the TF multiverse works. We know that the whole underpinning of the multiverse is that it's all canon, it's all "real" somewhere. Geosensus is a "real" Transformers character, just like Starscream is and Trannis is and just like Geniuz and TerrorClaw are not. The proper recognition of all official product as having equally crossed the threshold of validity--regardless of what agrees with what else--has been one of the guiding principles of this wiki for over 5 years, basically since any of us started contributing to it and making it worth a damn. In every other instance where a creative type has gotten stuff wrong, we point it out and go on our way. The idea that an author can say "this licensed story actually isn't licensed, that officially published character isn't official," or whatever, is simply a mistake and I can't even begin to fathom any reason why we should defer to it.

I would also point out that the TF:Legends page has been bent over backwards to stay relatively "neutral" on this affair but finishes up with the notion that we ignore the concept that any official-published work "doesn't count," and instead we (rightly, sanely) treat it the same as all the rest of the horde. And that has been our stated policy on the matter in the pertinent article for at least 3 years. Why dredge this up all over again after so long?

Besides, even if for some reason we were in such thrall to author intent, it wouldn't matter. The book does not clearly or sensibly declare any such thing. The editor says its stories were meant not to be taken as real facts that actually happened. The cover copy writer on the same book contradicts that, saying its stories were put together with no hard-and-fast rules at all. So which author intent do you follow? Shall we put TWO stupid and unnecessary disclaimers on the book now? And you can sure as heck bet that professional TF writers like Simon Furman and Bob Skir meant for their stories to be "real", especially Skir, who edited Beast Machines and made his Legends story fit perfectly within it. There is already longstanding precedent on this wiki to validate Skir's Legends story, as we (correctly) adopt his name for Megatron's giant head, the Grand Mal. We don't do it because Bob Skir is particularly awesome (even though he is) or because we love the name or because of the phase of the moon or whatever, or because we hadn't read Cian's gobbeldygook before that article got posted, or because a shadow fell across all our copies of the book and we never noticed Cian's words. We do it because the name was published under the official stamp and thus is as much a Transformers "fact" as the name of Ravage's brother, period, fullstop. --Thylacine 2000 21:46, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

Too many "vast"s. I know what you are trying to say, though. How about "As a rule, unofficial work is considered to be non-germane to this wiki, but occasionally an unofficial..." - Starfield 14:04, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

Draft 2

notes

{{apocrypha}} is a template to be used in the rare event of a pseudocanon story or idea worth documenting. The vast majority of Transformers fiction falls into one of two categories; official works, which are canon, and unofficial works, i.e. fanfiction, which are non-canon. However, there is also the gray area that is pseudocanon. Fiction that is considered pseudocanon generally falls into one of two categories.

• Unofficial fiction from an official creator that is so informative as to the creator's thought process and/or so influential to the fandom as to be worth documenting can be pseudocanon.
• Fiction that is published in such a way as to render it unofficial, such as fan works published as ancillary or bonus images/fiction with other licensed work, can also be considered pseudocanon.

Before using this template, reach a broad consensus on an appropriate talk page to ensure that the work in question legitimately qualifies as pseudocanon worthy of documentation. Nearly all unofficial fiction is merely non-canon, and not pseudocanon. When in doubt, it's non-canon. When you're absolutely, 100% sure, then start a discussion page just to be sure.

template

The content of this page is considered to be apocryphal. Fiction that is considered pseudocanon generally falls into one of two categories. It is most likely either unofficial fiction from an official creator that is so informative as to the creator's thought process and/or so influential to the fandom as to be worth documenting, or fiction that is published in such a way as to render it unofficial, such as fan works published as ancillary or bonus images/fiction with other official work. As such, new ideas and concepts introduced here may not hold true for work that is completely canonical.

Draft 2 Discussion

Ok, made another version that includes most of the above feedback. I'm not sure which I prefer. Thoughts?--Jimsorenson 20:39, 21 June 2010 (EDT)

I like the second one, but think it still needs a note to explicitly exclude most fan fiction (I actually like the "vast, vast, VAST" from the first one). --Khajidha 08:33, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

The info box creates an entry in the table of contents and a dividing line. I don't know if that is intentional. - Starfield 22:44, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

I don't think the TOC entry is necessary, actually. It seems that people like this template. Unless anyone strongly objects, I'm going to slap this puppy on Alignment, Hail & Farewell, and Dead Men's Boots. There seems to be debate about whether it should apply to Legends or not, so I'm not going to add it there until/unless there is some kind of consensus. (I have no strong feelings one way or the other, but am leaning towards NOT applying it.)--Jimsorenson 23:02, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

Yeah, I think we should just change the H2 to a plain bolded thingy, to keep the wiki software from sticking the TOC in weird spots. (The Bee at Pax page just looks ridiculously formatted at the moment as a result.) Otherwise, I like it. --Jeysie 23:05, 28 June 2010 (EDT)

Apocrypha category?

Should this template add the article to a Category marked "Apocrypha"? We seem to have enough, or at least BIG ENOUGH items, to warrant it, I think. It'd be good to be able to get to all those "not really official" items all in one place. --M Sipher 12:27, 14 July 2010 (EDT)

I think that's a great idea. Unfortunately, my wikia mojo is stretched to the limit already. Someone else will have to add that feature.--Jimsorenson 12:29, 14 July 2010 (EDT)

If you think any further support from peons will help get it done, you have my vote in favor.--Khajidha 12:30, 14 July 2010 (EDT)

Actually, figured it out. Templates are tricky, but not not impossible.--Jimsorenson 12:57, 14 July 2010 (EDT)

Image

Any thoughts as to an image for this template? It'd class it up a bit.--Jimsorenson 12:56, 14 July 2010 (EDT)

I dunno if it needs one. I mean, it fits so nicely to the left of the fiction infobox/image (see "Dead Men's Boots"). We talking something tiny? Maybe hunter from "Hail & Farewell"? --M Sipher 13:22, 14 July 2010 (EDT)

Mixing terms "apocrypha" and "pseudocanon"

It may not be a big deal, but maybe we should stick to one term. The first and second sentences in particular switch terms. Since we have a "pseudocanon" article, I propose we use that term throughout the template text. - Starfield 21:17, 8 August 2010 (EDT)

To be truly consistent we'd have to switch this to "template pseudocanon". Perhaps just noting that the two terms are synonymous in the first sentence would be enough. --Khajidha 23:32, 8 August 2010 (EDT)