Editing Talk:Japanese Generation 1 cartoon timeline

==The chronological order of BW and BW2 in Japanese continuity==
(Maybe I cannot write quite clear, but I still want to say about this.)  Uh, this has bothered me for few year after Beast Machines' airing. In my opinion, though it is named "Beast Wars ''Second''", that doesn't means BW2 happens directly after BW's event. Because BW and Beast Machines must be together, and Optimus Primal died in the last, he cannot show up in [[Beast Wars Special Super Lifeform Transformers|"Lio Convoy in Imminent Danger" from BW2 portion]]. Thus, the proper chronological order (maybe) should be <small>(Note: Ignore the BW2 manga)</small>:
:Events in Planet Gaia (Lio Convoy and his crew fought Galvatron and his troops) > (Maybe BW Neo can be put there) > BW Megatron stole the Golden Disk > Axalon and Darksyde crash-landed on prehistorical Earth > events in [[Beast Wars (cartoon)|BW]] > Maximal went back to Cybertron but were attacked by Vehicons > events in [[Beast Machines (cartoon)|BM]]
--[[User:TX55|TX55]] 04:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

:...it had been my impression that BW2 and Neo happened 'while' BW was ongoing.  They represent events back in the Maximals 'native' time after the Axalon's disappearance, but before Beast Machines occoured. In short-- the airing order more-or-less reflects the order of events.
:(I didn't think BW2 occurring simultaneously to BW/Metals was ever in question.)-[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::One problem with that is that Gaia is supposed to be Earth in the far, far future, after almost all of human civilization is overgrown and forgotten. It doesn't really mesh with the "300 years after the Great War" thing. I assume that's why the timeline's writer(s) placed it somewhere in the indeterminate future. --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 12:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Just saw a horrible explanation. The reason that Primal show up in [[Beast Wars Special Super Lifeform Transformers|the BW2 movie]] is because the impact from the explosion of Planet Buster made him warp in to the future Earth "Gaea". <small>As a matter of fact, the explosion kill him instead of the time travelling. Everybody knows BW2 was made before the conclusion of BW.</small> Gees, if this is true<small>(though I hope not)</small>, I hope it has be retconned...... Japanese is really TOO imaginative.

== References ==

You reference two timelines from the KP-era, fine.  Are there translations of them for us to read?  Is every event listed here for those two timelines?  Did you add anything else in?  This is a ''lot'' of content, and I'm having trouble parsing what came from where, even the stuff that looks like old info looks like it's had a lot of new additions to it.  (And I still don't get how BW2 took place further in the future than BW-era.)

Also- what was the name of the manga series with the Trigger in it?  I can never remember... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
: Everything in the timeline is taken directly from one or both of the ones cited as references at the bottom of the page (when they had two differently expanded versions of the same historical point, we merged them, but otherwise it's pretty much word-for-word). These essentially are the translations of them, as we didn't add anything of our own in. If you're looking for what info came from which timeline, it's primarily from the longer one in the new book collection, but the Autorooper X Atari one included the expanded G1 episode info and a few additional story points about Binaltech, Robot Masters and of course Kiss Players.
 
: Not sure on the manga series title, though. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 12:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::So essentially- this ''is'' a translated (and merged) timeline.  Fair enough. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

==To revise or not to revise?==

So here's the question. Some people (myself included) have been fixing the odd typo, grammatical error and link in here. That's fine. But other people have actually been changing or adding to the event listings (I've had to revert a couple that altered what the original material stated). Since what we originally put in here was a literal translation of official material, I'm not sure what the wiki's stance is on further updating it, even with confirmed, non-POV references. What's the word, gang? --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 12:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:I'd stick to what the timeline says. Maybe create a separate article for specifically the Kiss Players timeline and another article for this, plus additions? [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 17:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::Since this article is, to some degree, acting as a Primary Reference... IMO, ''let'' people revise it and add more stuff to it where warranted.  But take a 'virgin' of the timeline and stick it on a sandbox page under this, and put a link to it on this page.  "Here is ''just'' the two timelines translated and merged, for reference." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 19:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:Since Swift is familiar with the edits (and I am not) I nominate him to track down an uncorrupted-by-outside-sources version of the article and backup its contents [[Generation 1 cartoon timeline (Japan)/src|here]].  Anyone else may do so if they beat him to it, of course. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
::I'm still not entirely positive that this is the right route to take, but done. It's actually just a cut and paste of the current article - as far as I can tell, the very few inappropriate changes have been removed. However, I'm not positive that we shouldn't just lock off the original instead. Wiki gurus? --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 00:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Neither am I, but if consensus decides against it in the future it's a quick delete-job, and this opens the option. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 12:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
:I agree with Interrobang. I think that this article should not be altered beyond its original parameters, and would go so far as to suggest locking it from edits completely once all typos have been removed. Can we do that, Skyblitz? --[[User:Monzo|Monzo]] 03:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
::It's possible; I'll do it if that's the consensus, certainly. I feel it's also worth pointing out that once it's protected, Walky and I will still be able to make edits-- so if there's anything that does need to be changed, it can be brought up here for one of the two to make said edit. Now, if that's necessary, I don't know; I don't feel very strongly on the matter. --[[User:Suki Brits|Suki Brits]] 16:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
:::Before we even consider that, the article still needs to indicate the original sources/fiction for all of the facts. Japanese fiction is not my forte, so there's a lot of blanks in that area. [[User:Interrobang|Interrobang]] 17:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

==Some names==
Uh, I am not sure about this, but I think maybe we should use the original name for the characters in "Car Robot / RID" franchise to avoid getting confused '''SINCE''' ''CR'' is included in JP G1 continuity rather than a single continuity. I suggest ussing "((xxx (RID)|JP name))" instead of just "((xxx (RID)))", like "Optimus Prime (RID)|Fire Convoy", "Ultra Magnus (RID)|God Magnus", and "Fortress Maximus (RID)|Brave Maximus". (especially Brave Maximus, because I really get confuse few times. <small>''Man'', I ''really'' hate using ''Classic'' characters' names for ''CR'' guys.</small>) --[[User:TX55|TX55]] 15:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
:The fact that Japan is silly enough to make Optimus Prime a separate, unrelated Convoy named Fire Convoy in ''japan'' does not affect our timeline.  In RiD Episode 3 the humans recognize Optimus Prime- they don't recognize "Hey, that unrelated transformer who we've never seen before!"
:(I find it surreally pleasing to find that RiD, RM, the weird Manga, and KP have all been integrated into one continuity now.  Now ''all'' the stuff that clashes worst with G1 is it's own sub-continuity, which is just surreally crazy.  I love it.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 18:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

== Needs More Citation! ==

Just reading through this for the first time and there's some bits here at the begining that I think REALLY needs some more explication. Specifically:


'' Oracle reaches a desolate planet in the center of the galaxy and changes it into a verdant world.'' 


There's no citation in this line at all. I know it's something never seen or hinted at in the original cartoon. Without a source reference it REALLY seems like someone fanficing up a connection with Beast Machines. Can we give this idea an actual Japanese source? 


''Oracle senses that in the far future, Primacron will create Tornadron, which can absorb all energy. Oracle summons Grimlock and other beast Transformers from the future to tell them how to destroy the threat.[1]'' 


This is referenced to "Call of the Primitives", but there is nothing in the English version of that episode at least that hints at any time travel. If the Japanese have decided in some secondary material that there WAS time travel going on there then I think we need a ('''Note:''') to that affect and source.


''The Quintessons immigrate to Oracle's green planet. They obtain Oracle's shell, the Matrix. Oracle, who has the ability to give robots life, is turned into the ultra computer Vector Sigma. His safety key has the power to make organic life into machines, and is used by the Quintessons to transform his world into the machine planet Cybertron.[2]''


This is source referenced to "Key to V.S. 1&2" and "FFoD" but neither of those suggest ANYTHING like what this says. Again, this is all smoshing in Beast Machines ideas and without any actual source reference REALLY, REALLY sounds like fanfic.


I think this is really important stuff to get fixed (or removed) if we want this article to stand up as truthful. Anyone have the refs to support it?
--[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 11:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

:Zac, did you miss the fact that this page is a direct translation of an official Japanese-published timeline? It's not something a fan knocked together. That said, I'd be willing to wager that all this time travel stuff about Oracle, Vector Sigma and the origin of Cybertron was probably cooked up for the timeline itself, personally, rather than having been established in any previous media. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 12:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
::Yeah, I'd bet the same. The CotP time travel especially smacks to me of needing to explain how Primacron's Assistant could both be Vector Sigma and give the message about Tornadron to the "Primatives" - the timeline's writer(s) must have decided it was easiest for him to just send a message from the past before he became VS. --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 12:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

:::Yeah, I kinda missed that. Or at least I was imagining Japanese timeline as somthing that just gave events in the fiction dates in relation to each other, rather than went into detail explicating things and adding new stuff to this extent. I figured the dates were from the timeline and the explications ours, my fault. :P So all the explications, explanations, and just plain new stuff here all are actually in the timelines, huh. Ok, that's cool. A note as to how the timelines DO invent new stuff and one on the retcon nature of the CoTP time travel bit wouldn't be a bad thing then. --[[User:ZacWilliam|ZacWilliam]] 12:56, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
::::Yep, it's pretty much a word for word translation and merging of the two published timelines, which only conflicted on one point, mentioned in the article text. Only the citations and occasional clarifying note have been added. --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 16:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

==Existence of this article==
This information is ''awesome'' and I am super excited that Quez and Swift prepared it for us.  However, I'm not sure that a wiki is the appropriate place for -- as Derik rightly calls it -- primary information.  If it stays on the wiki, it should definitely be protected as discussed above, but I think it would be more appropriate for the translated timeline to be hosted elsewhere, someplace "incorruptable", with this article serving as more of a summary/description of the timeline instead of reproducing it in its entirety.  The Swifts could probably work it into their Kiss-Kiss site pretty easily, since both timelines come from KP sources, but there are plenty of other places we could stick it instead.  

Regarding the citations... Since it merges two different source documents, I'd personally like to see a slightly more meticulous citation scheme.  Every entry should probably state which timeline it is culled from (or that it combines items from both), in addition to the already-there cites to stories that the timelines themselves refer to.

--[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 21:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
:<nowiki>*bolds the link in the messagebox to draw Steve-o's attention to it.*</nowiki> -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:07, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

::Yeah, uh... I already saw that.  I still sort of feel like the wiki should not be hosting "primary sources", but should instead report on them.  We can just as easily link to your ATT post of the timeline's contents instead of putting it in a subpage.  And that doesn't address my feeling that the article should report on / comment on / summarize the timeline instead of reproducing it in its entirety.  --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 05:05, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

::Hello?  There were two new edits today [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Generation_1_cartoon_timeline_%28Japan%29&diff=107964&oldid=106775] [http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Generation_1_cartoon_timeline_%28Japan%29&diff=107966&oldid=107964] that seem to have changed names of things, but I assume that the names Swift had there were carefully chosen to be as correct as possible.  Do the edits need to be reverted?  I have no idea.  This is going to happen constantly as long as the material is posted like this, making the article itself untrustworthy.  At the very least, even if the additions are correct, we are misrepresenting the source material by claiming it mentions these things when it doesn't.  I reiterate my previous statement that the primary material should not be hosted, at all, on the wiki, and that the article should summarize/discuss the timeline which can be read elsewhere.  --[[User:Steve-o|Steve-o]] 19:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

:::We're going to be gone for the next 2 1/2 weeks, so we really have to leave this up to folks more knowledgeable in the ways of wikidom than ourselves. At the time, it seemed like something that belonged here; if that's not the case, then you folks are going to have to make that call. As for the changes Steve-o mentioned, the first one seems to extrapolate more than the original Japanese stated (and it looks like it's already been fixed), but the second is a reasonable alternate translation, and I assume Spengler changed it because of some specific reference. --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 22:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

== Logos Prime ==

I take issue with the name, frankly.  He's Logos Convoy on a UT world.  Most Convoys in Cybertron aren't Primes, so i think this guy's name should be changes back to Logos Convoy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:31, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
: His name is Logos Prime in Japanese, same as Vector Prime isn't Vector Convoy. There's no character anywhere named "Logos Convoy" (that we know of). --[[User:Swift|Swift]] 23:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>