Editing Talk:Sentinel Prime (G1)

==Autobot leader?==
I think that statement wans't true outside of Dreamwave continuity Walky.  Prime-as-leeader-of-the-Autobots didnt' come about until well after SP's death.  'There Shall Come a Leader' and all that said the Autobots were not only led by the High Council, but they also commanded the military.  Optimus Prime beign named Commander-in-Chief of the army was the turning point of the war. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
: Isn't there a Marvel UK panel of Sentinel Prime passing the Matrix to Optimus?  That's the only full-body shot we've ever got of him.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

...you mean like the one I uploaded 2 minutes ago? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
: What I'm saying is he looks like he's Autobot leader to me.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::And I woudl agree with you.  He definatelyt was in The War Within.  But in Marvel's backstory (at least UK) Optimus Prime was the first TF made leader of the Autobots, which had previously been led by the High Council  (one of the reasons for their ineffectiveness.)  And that's jsut the army.  NEITHER had been civil leader.  (Well, Prime possibly was followign Xaaron's death.)
:::I'd argue that Sentinel Prime was still Autobot leader even though he had a council to answer to.  Is UT Optimus Prime not Autobot leader?  He has a council of ancients who can veto him as well.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
::::Good point, and well said.  -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

==Keepers Trilogy info==
There's a fairly lengthy list of Sentinel Prime's abilities and weapons in the Keepers Trilogy.  I plan to put that in his main section since he's such a ciper.  Any objections? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 01:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

==Unsucceessful?==
...and why was he unsuccessful?  because he died?  Optimus Prime died, does that make him unsuccessful?  What about the Primes that reigned during times of peace? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
:Because everyone said he was.  Everyone specifically said Sentinel Prime (and all the others) did a piss-poor job.  Megatron slaughtered them.  It was only Optimus who did a good job.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::Really, I could have sworn that Sentinel Prime was Prime before war started, and thus Megatron had slaughtered, at max, one Prime before Optimus.  When did <nowiki>{{Template:Tooltip|everyone|Was it Bluestreak?  He says lots of things...}}</nowiki> say this? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
:::A fairly big point is made that none of the previous Primes were military leaders.  They were without "clout," as Grimlock put it.  They just weren't very good, and it was Optimus who turned the tide of the war.  Apparently archivists are great military leaders or something.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::::In Dreamwave continuity, there were only 2 more primes prior to Sentinel Prime (not counting Prima) at leat one of which was not deactivated, but instead 'left for parts unknown.'
::::Your very argument, that Sentinel Prime did a 'piss poor job' adnd wasn't suited to beign a war leader lends itself to the belief he'd been appointed PRIOR to the begining of the war. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
:::::Actually, my belief was that the Matrix just chose shitty Primes.  (Which works with what you say the Keepers Trilogy may have been suggesting.)  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::::::How does 'Megatron chose Optronix to be a shitty Prime' translate into 'the matrix chose him to be a shitty Prime'?
::::::And it's not suggesting- it's pretty explicit.

<DIV STYLE="nargin:10px;background:#eeeeee;padding:10px;">"Sentinel Prime," Optimus choaked. He was looking up into the face of his predecessor, and he could only imagine the Autobot's shame and disgust.

"I'm not a ghost," Sentinel Prime said. "I'm as real as anything else in your mind, and to your senses. The Matrix within you chose this form to communicate with you."

Optimus almost laughed. This wasn't happening. It couldn't be happening; "Not the best time..."

"You were right to think that an error was made. It never should have been you, Optimus. You should have been free to choose the life you would lead. This burden of leadership had  been meant for another. It is only after many years of detailed self-diagnostic routines that the flaw has become apparent."

"No..."

"You need to hear this, Optimus," Sentinel Prime said calmly. "You were chosen to fail. Chosen by Megatron himself."</DIV>

::::::Now, you CAN attempt to say that the Matrix is basically... messign with him.  Tryign to shock him back to awareness.  (Prime had been deep in a crisis of confidence and badly wounded, was basically considering 'letting go' and letting Megatron finish him off.)  The next thing SP says is that- just because Prime had been chosen to fail doesnt' mean he should let Megatron kill him here and now.
::::::The '''problem''' with this argument is that Prime is obesessed with this idea that he wasn't meant to be Prime for all of book 1.  And when he finally overcomes this confidence, he does not conclude the message was false, he jsut concludes it doesnt' matter if hr wwas the wrong choice 'at the time,' he's grown into someoen who can fill the role.
::::::Besides, I dont' think the Matrix would encourage Prime to pass the Matrix on to someone else if it was just messing with him, which it did.

::::::It may not have been what Furman meant when he wrote 'rigged the game,' but that's probably what Ciencin was basing it off of.  But then, Ciencin probably based the Keepers off a text refernece to the old man from US#60 in the War Within. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

==Rigged the game==
Again, Derik, you read weird things into pretty straight-forward dialogue.  I'm pretty sure the only game he means is battle.  War is his, he invented it, yadda yadda yadda.  It's common Furman-style rhetoric.  I don't really see the conspiracy theory, and I'm puzzled even further how Megatron could rig the Matrix to choose Optromix, especially since he spends the whole first miniseries trying to get the dang thing.  If he can manipulate it that deeply from afar, why the hell bother?  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's stupid too.  But according the Keepers Trilogy, the claim is real.  Or rather, after all the smoke and confusion over the robotic Sentinel Prime underiming Optimus Prime's confidence settled- it emerged that the original vision, which claimed Megatron has chosen Optronix to be Prime in order that he would fail (and thus Megatron would get the Matrix) actually WAS a real vision projected by the Matrix.

So... yeah.  You can delete the italicised claim if it suits you, bit it at least fits that otherwise rather ODD bit fromt he books, and makes it seem more like he just pushed them to choose the records-clerk.  "He'll be easy." -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

==Umlauts are Cool==
NEW DISCUSSION TOPIC!

do you think that the evil clone of Hot Rod, as one of Megatron's 'diabolical clones' used diacriticals to distinguish himself from the original?

You know, like: '''Höt Röd''' ?



Was there some point when characters discussed Sentinal Prime and said he had 'a good head on his shoulders- well, he USED to?'  Or am I totally remembering somethign that never happened? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 07:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
: "Sentinel Prime, he had his head screwed on."  "Not at the end, he didn't." 
: So, uh, is it me, or did Stephen Colbert write the italicized portion of the profile? --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 16:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, but WHERE was that from? I'm blanking, and I dont' have time to sit down and re-read all of TWW to find it, I just got Angelig Days v1, and I have a date with Kowaru slashiness!
::I like to cap off my character biographies with something that sums them up.  I can't HELP that this one was inherently hilarious.  Prime learnign to trust his heart but USE his fists was the entire damn point of The War Within.
::I should go back and cut down that top entry, I bet you could cut 40% of the text withotu losing any meaning.  It was a bitch to get it all structured, but once in place, it could stand to be trimemd back... -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 00:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

== Not Dead Yet ==

Acoording to Alex Milne (the artist) Sentinel didn't die at the end of Megatron Origin. But like much of his artwork it is kinda hard to tell.

http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=2612

Here is the quote ....."with sentinel prime, he's different then nova, and optimus. he's a brute. also, he's not dead yet. he won't die for a while still. but he has been beaten badly."

==Disambigs==
The number of disambig templates at the top of this article is really ridiculous.  We should have sort of statute of limitations.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
:I think we could ''easily'' limit this one to just a <nowiki>{{disambig3|Sentinel}}</nowiki>--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 03:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
::I agree.  Just make it a "Sentinel Prime" disambig.  The others are fairly superfluous. -- [[User:Dark T Zeratul|Dark T Zeratul]] 09:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

== "Precisely aimed, pointblank shot" ==

Unless this description of Sentinel's armor is a direct quote from someplace, I'd suggest rewording it.   I don't think it's logically possible to have a non-precisely-aimed point-blank shot.
:It's definitely possible, especially during a close-quarters struggle.  --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 22:50, 20 December 2009 (EST)
::Wouldn't it actually be an accurately aimed shot? Shots hitting close to each other are precise, shots hitting the target are accurate. [[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 22:58, 20 December 2009 (EST)

==Sentinel Major==
I really think, when we get around to adding this info, it should go on [[Sentinel Prime (G1)]].  They are analogous characters within the same continuity family.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 12:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:Seconded. They're using 'Major' as a rank here, not a name.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::Is 'major' being a rank explicitly stated? There's no physical resemblance between any G1 version of Sentinel Prime and this fellow. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

::I had been pondering this myself, and I'm not entirely sure it would go on here either, seeing as how there's a good chance that Sentinel is never a Prime in the Wings of Honor continuity.
::I actually do agree with the assertion that Sentinel Major ''is'' probably the WoH equivalent of Sentinel Prime, mind you. It just, well, seems odd to put him on a Sentinel ''Prime'' article if it ends up he's never a Prime.
::(I guess we could just add on some alternate names in the header and make some Notes, but I'm always on the side of trying for obvious clarity first.)
::Although Ayellowbirds does have a point. It's not as if any of the other WoH Autobot leaders we've seen so far have had ranks added to their names. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:19, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::The specifics of the name is a non-issue, since these pages are character-entity based.  IDW Tankor is probably never gonna be called Octane, but he still goes on Octane's page.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:23, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::They don't resemble each other, either, and there's no evidence yet that one is intended to be analogous to the other. Tankor/Octane were flatly stated to be 'the same', as is Fracture/Crasher, and any number of others. I don't see cause to assume that Sentinel Major is meant to be the same character as G1 Sentinel Prime (he is pretty obviously based on Animated Sentinel Prime, who I'd argue is completely distinct), and I would think that keeping them distinct until they're stated to be the same would be ideal. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:31, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::Octane/Tankor is obviously intended to be the exact same guy and only has different names due to out-of-universe concerns unrelated to the fiction, so that is irrelevant.
::::Meanwhile, here we have a "Sentinel" who will never be Prime because ''in-universe'' he likely won't attain that rank. So having him at a "Sentinel Prime" page is arguably strange.
::::Now, if this article was at just "Sentinel", then I'd be perfectly fine with it because there'd be no inherent assumption in the title that we're talking about a guy who is a "Prime".
::::There's also the fact that, like I said, do we know "Major" is actually a rank? 'Clash and Metalhawk don't have ranks of any kind, and neither does Magnum, and they all seem to have more status in the hierarchy than someone who at the moment seems like he's just Magnum's attache/bodyguard.
::::Basically, it seems more clear and simple to just give the guy his own page. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 14:32, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

:ItsWalky!- Aside from sharing the name 'Sentinel', I don't see any clear indication that they're meant to be analogous to each other. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:02, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

I made this article, because my knee-jerk reaction was to go on the wiki and create as complete an article as was possible... and ''then'' it occurred to me to check the policy page. I decided that setting up the page as a place-holding stub might work to prevent other people from making the same mistake I almost did, by having an existing page that links to the policy. It's not the loveliest article, but I don't think it needs to be, just yet. Of course, if I've misunderstood the relevant policies, y'all can go ahead and delete it. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 12:57, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:I think the main problem is that sometimes even putting up a article that's the minimum for a placeholder can still be too much of a spoiler, so we usually just hold off. I don't think it's a big deal in this case, but as a general thing... --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:19, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

"Is 'major' being a rank explicitly stated?" Things do NOT always need to be explicitly stated. We have brains and intelligence, we're allowed to use both deductive and even inductive reasoning to make our conclusions. Major has often been used as a rank in Transformers, and Prime these days is almost ALWAYS used as a rank. Whether or not this Sentinel ever explicitly achieves that rank, he's still basically just a new iteration of the same character.  As for the physical resemblance to Animated, I think that's to be expected. Sentinel Prime has always been a non-entity in the past, with a non-memorable design. Animated has changed that ... I'd frankly be shocked if future versions of Sentinel Prime (and his ilk) DIDN'T start to drift towards Animated.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 13:36, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::I'm with Jim.  As far as I'm concerned, this is just the G1 cartoon's Sentinel Prime.  He may have never become Sentinel Prime, but he's still the same guy.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:49, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:When these days has Prime been used as a rank in G1? Not arguing, just genuinely curious- I thought that was exclusive to Animated, and that Hasbro was fiercely protective of using the title, otherwise. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:47, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::"Prime" was used as a rank instead of a name the very moment "Rodimus Prime" existed.  The cartoon CREATED using "Prime" to indicate rank.  The Marvel comic took it further and used "Prime" as a rank for the guys that preceded Optimus as well.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:50, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::See, for me, the use in the cartoon and comics (and Hasbro's later use in stories stemming from G1) is more along the lines of a ''title'' like 'saint'. It denotes authority, but also a wholly or semi-spiritual mandate; in contrast, Optimus has the 'rank' of Commander, denoted by his function. That said, I think it starts to become a matter of semantics. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 14:13, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:I think I miscommunicated my argument somewhere along the lines. Simply put: there's more factors working AGAINST the assumption that Timelines Sentinel Major ''is'' G1 Sentinel Prime, rather than in favor of it. If you want to talk in terms of Major/Prime being ranks, doesn't G1 canon tend to establish that Sentinel was a Prime ''before'' Optimus was rebuilt from Optronix/Orion? Evidence suggests that this takes place after that, so he'd have to have dropped in rank, unless this is a wildly divergent timeline. As for appearance, G1 Sentinel Prime has pretty consistently been a mass of yellow and orange, at the very least- Sentinel Major is mostly blue. I'm not saying any one of these factors works against the assumption... I'm saying all of them together do so. Can you point out evidence in favor of your assertions? -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 13:47, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::Sentinel could *never* become Sentinel Prime in this timeline and still be the same guy.  Was Sentinel a Prime before Orion Pax became Optimus Prime?  It doesn't matter.  The Dinobots were either part of the Ark crew from Cybertron over 4 million years ago or they were built on Earth in 1985.  These are very timeline-conflicty things, and yet they're all on the same pages.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::So why the assertion that Sentinel Major is Sentinel Prime? There's no evidence in favor of that being the intent, and numerous factors working against it. The Dinobots in the different continuities (and continuity conflicts in a given story) are still plainly represented as being the Dinobots, are stated by the creators of those continuities to be the Dinobots, and have an appearance that is consistent with previous versions. My arguments against Sentinel Major being Sentinel Prime aren't airtight, but nobody has given any argument in favor of them being the same. The burden of proof is on your side. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 14:08, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::It isn't that complicated.  He's the G1 version of Sentinel, so his information goes on the G1 Sentinel page.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 14:11, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::Has it been stated anywhere that that's the case? It sounds to me like you're saying that the evidence that he's meant to be the same as Sentinel Prime is that he shares one part of his name in common with the Prime... which is about as weak an argument as saying that you and I are the same person because we have similar first names. I don't see why there can't be multiple distinct Cybertronians with the [[Silverbolt_(G1)|same]] [[Silverbolt_(BW)|name]] existing in the same continuity. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 14:20, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::The very fact that he looks pretty much identical to [[Sentinel Prime (Animated)]] is extremely strong evidence that he is intended to, in fact, '''BE''' Sentinel Prime. We've always maintained that, absence evidence to the contrary, characters in Animated that look like their G1 counterpart ARE that character (for instance, [[Spittor (Animated)]] is never referred to by name, but no one argues that maybe it's not Spittor) and I see no reason why we can't use the converse argument here. 
::::::In other words, as I said before, we have the capability of using reason, it behooves us to use it. Let's not be intentionally daft. This tendency to stick our fingers in our ears and thrust our heads under the sand is counterproductive to genuinely cataloging knowledge and enhancing our understanding of the beauty that is Transformers. --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 14:54, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::Okay, we can say that "characters in Animated that look like their G1 counterpart ARE that character", so we can say that G1 Sentinel ''Major'' is Animated Sentinel Prime... but neither of them ''look'' like any version of the G1 Sentinel ''Prime''. There '''is''' a demonstrable link between the Animated character and the G1 character in Wings of Honor, but I don't see any link aside from the name between the Animated character and the earlier G1 character. This is like saying [[Jetstorm_(Animated)|Jetstorm]] is [[Jetstorm_(BM)|Jetstorm]]- except there, we at least have some aspects of appearance in common. 
::::::As for Spittor, there's authorial intent and other sources outside the cartoon itself to establish that they're meant to be 'the same'. Nothing like that in this case, so far as I've seen. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 15:33, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::: Let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that FP puts out a new story, set in a "what if?" universe where, during the events of [[War Dawn]], Orion Pax dies without having ever become Optimus Prime, and Dion goes on to become the leader of the Autobots.  This version of Orion would still be a legitimate Optimus Prime (G1).  --[[User:Andrusi|Andrusi]]
:::::Arguably so, but G1 Orion Pax is still established in canon as being 'the same person' as G1 Optimus Prime. There's nothing yet in canon establishing G1 Sentinel Major as being the same person as G1 Sentinel Prime. The problem I have here is that people are saying that one character is the other without any evidence that that's the authorial intent. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 15:45, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::Leaving Andrusi's persuasive argument aside, you're admitting that G1 Sentinel Major IS a G1 version of a Sentinel Prime, albeit from Animated.  So ... you admit that he's basically '''A''' Sentinel Prime. But, what, you think he might be a different Sentinel Prime? 
::::::As for differences or similarities between this Sentinel and other incarnations of Sentinel ... other versions of Sentinel Prime are complete ciphers. Non-entities. They have no personality and generally have been defined by their actions; dying. What personality similarities would you like to see? 
::::::IMO, you're just being silly.  I think you're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.  I'm not going to keep making arguments going around in circles. The consensus seems to be that G1 is the place to keep him. If that changes, maybe I'll pop back and argue with you some more.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 15:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::I'm not sure how two people arguing to keep the info here, and two people arguing for it to go on a separate page (albeit for two different reasons) = a consensus either way, but okay. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:07, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

::::::Jim: Yes, I agree that Sentinel Major seems to be based on Animated Sentinel Prime, just as [[Cop-Tur_(Timelines)]] is based on [[Cop-Tur]]- but Pete Sinclair explicitly said the two Cop-Turs are ''not'' meant to be the same character. As I pointed out above, there are numerous instances of two characters with the same or similar names existing in one continuity in Transformers, just as there are many John Smiths in real life.
::::::Personality? This one's a cipher too, but you can say that about any character with as few lines as he's had. 
::::::IMO, you're being contradictory, at times saying that personality and appearance don't matter, and then at other times saying they do. As far as I'm concerned, until someone who was responsible for him appearing in the Fun Pub story comes forward and says one way or the other, there's no reason to assume Timelines Sentinel Major is meant to be any other character than himself. To say otherwise is speculative, and I was under the impression that that was against policy here. I'm gonna hold off from now on, to wait and see what the official word is... but even if they say he's meant to be G1 Sentinel Prime, I'll still say that the right thing to do was to wait and hear FP/Hasbro/whomever say it is so, rather than leaping to conclusions and putting him here on fan speculation alone. --[[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]]16:11, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

[http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=68246&view=findpost&p=1503443 Does this post poke the discussion in either direction]? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:21, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:While I'd say that supports the "G1 Sentinel Major is not G1 Sentinel Prime" argument, I have to ask: is the poster is someone has the authority to make that assertion? I don't frequent the Allspark, so I don't know who's who there. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 16:30, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::Yeah. NightViper is [[Jesse Wittenrich]]'s handle. (...which reminds me I need to update his page.) --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:32, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:Not really. It only reconfirms that Sentinel is not a Matrix-bearer, and therefore not a Prime, as they apparently call those in the cartoon universe. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 16:46, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

===The Official Word on [[Sentinel Major]]===
[[Jesse Wittenrich]] replied to a posting I made on the Club Magazine subforum at the TFCC site to say the following:
{{quote|G1 Sentinel Prime's only importance (other than dying) was that he was the Matrix bearer and leader of the Autobots before Optimus.

Since Sentinel Major is not a Matrix bearer nor the leader of the Autobots, well...}}

He clarified this in a second reply by saying:
{{quote|He's a separate character from the G1 comic Sentinel Prime's character/archetype}}

So, I think that makes it fairly clear, no? Thanks to Jeysie for double-checking with him on what he meant. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 20:52, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:And after reading Sorenson's response I'm now reminded of the bit where I noted in my query to Wittenrich that "sometimes [the Wiki folks] aren't even happy WITH [a straight answer]". --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:34, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

:I don't think it makes it clear at all.  He goes out of his way to NOT say if it's a different iteration of the same character and instead talks about archetypes.  Also, is there context for the question? I mean, they're undoubtedly different guys, just as comics Shockwave is a different guy than cartoon Shockwave (different archetypes, too.)  That doesn't mean they're not what we of the wiki would consider to some version of the same character, though.
:Besides, as an author, I've long taken the position that authorial intent is worth the paper it's printed on.  --[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:18, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::HA! In fact, deconstructing his answer, assuming he was asked something straightforward like "are they the same character" and he said that they're a different character/archetype could actually be evidence that they ARE what WE would consider to be a different franchise iteration of the same underlying fundamental character.  Why else the otherwise-unnecessary qualifier about archetypes? (My Lit. Hum. class is coming back to me.)--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 21:25, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
:::Because "comic Sentinel Prime" is the ''only'' G1 Sentinel Prime that's existed so far. Based on Wittenrich's Allspark response (where he notes that there's no Sunbow Sentinel Prime), he's making that qualifier simply because he wants to be accurate about there being no cartoon Sentinel Prime to compare to--so comic Sentinel Prime is the only possible character to compare to--not because he's trying to say WoH and G1 Sentinel Prime are the same character.
:::Because, seriously, if he was saying that WoH and comic Sentinel are the same character, why would he spell out that "comic Sentinel is these things, and WoH is ''not'' any of those things, therefore..." Duh. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 21:34, 7 April 2010 (EDT)
::He unambiguously says they're separate characters, "archetype" was an addition to that statement. As for context, my post that he replied to was ''"Okay, I figured this is the best place to ask for an official opinion on the issue, since it's becoming kind of contentious on the wiki.''
::'' '''Is Sentinel Major meant to be the same as G1 Sentinel Prime, or a distinct entity?''' ''
::''In other words, is it the intent that Sentinel Major is meant to be the Timelines version of G1 Sentinel Prime, or a new character (presumably based on Animated Sentinel Prime)?"''
::His reply was followed by Jeysie asking ''"So... is that a yes or no to him being a separate character?"'', whence came Wittenrich's reply above in the second quotation.
::If you're going to say authorial intent is invalid, then I don't think you have any grounds to say that Sentinel Major is Sentinel Prime, either. The way it looks to me is that there is ''some'' evidence that G1 SM is not G1 SP, and ''no'' evidence that they're the same character. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 21:34, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

Man, I can't wait to separate IDW from G1 because of what Don Figueroa said and combine all the Optimus Primes into one page because of something Simon Furman said.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 13:06, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:Man, we might have to do that if there wasn't plenty of canon evidence to the contrary that means we don't need to resort to authorial intent in those cases. Fortunately for us, it's just you once again not taking the time to understand the actual point being made before you mouth off. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 13:25, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:Walky- We could ignore authorial intent entirely, sure. But there's still more evidence to suggest that Sentinel Major is NOT some incarnation of G1 Sentinel Prime, than there is to say that they're meant to be the same. Particularly since there's ''no evidence whatsoever'' to support the latter idea. The only connecting factor is the word "Sentinel" in their names, and that they're both in G1 continuities. Maybe that's enough evidence for you, but not for me. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 17:55, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:: They're both high-ranking military characters named Sentinel, both based on the idea of "Sentinel Prime."  That is enough for me.  I also disagree about asking authors who aren't familiar with how our wiki's categorization works on how to categorize our characters on this wiki, and their answer being seen as authoritative.  If you want to ask them other questions, that's fine, and the answers can be illuminating, but I don't think they should dictate wiki policy.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:39, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:::Since Rosicrucian stated he disagreed with your stance on this point, at least one person familiar with how the wiki works has weighed in, actually. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:57, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
::::Is this page moved back to Sentinel Prime (G1)?  That means I care what some other people think.  That doesn't mean I can't still make my case.  I just don't see the "official" answer as authoritative when it comes to certain policy decisions.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:14, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::I apologize, I misinterpreted authors as "wiki authors" and thought you were talking about the Community Portal discussion, not Pete & Wittenrich's commentary. As such, I was confused, because I didn't think/know we had an official written-down policy on how we determine whether a character belongs on a same page or a different one or not.
:::::Since I admit I see this as being the exact same situation as the Killzone one, where, in a lack of outright canon evidence, authorial intent trumps circumstantial reasoning. So to me, saying Sentinel Major is different from G1 Sentinel Prime is actually following an already-made precedent, not allowing third-party authors to dictate policy. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:36, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::I don't see how the Killzone thing is relevant.  That was a fancharacter versus a canon character thing.  Sentinel Major, no matter how tenuously, did get his name and position of authority from G1 Sentinel Prime.  It wasn't a coincidence like Killzone.  With Sentinel, I can connect the dots.  Killzone is just a case of accidental name recycling.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 19:45, 9 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Sentinel Major got his name, likeness, and position from ''Animated'' Sentinel Prime. And IMHO it's circumstantial reasoning to say that Animated Sentinel and G1 Sentinel are alike enough for syllogism purposes (since Ani Sentinel also lacks any canon definite similarity to G1 Sentinel ''and'' he was originally intended to be Rodimus Prime, which further points to a mere name reuse), which I would think leaves us back up at authorial intent.
:::::::Basically, when there's no definite canon evidence, and authorial intent exists, I personally consider said intent to have more weight than our fan theories. I don't think anything one can label as "tenuous" is a good thing to base wiki decisions on when there's more concrete evidence available. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:54, 9 April 2010 (EDT)

===Sentinel Prime===
{{note|This conversation was moved from [[User talk:Jimsorenson#Sentinel Prime]].}}
Not to drag this on past when I said I was done, but one thing is still really confusing me: you seemed firmly convinced that Sentinel Major was meant to be G1 Sentinel Prime. What exactly was your evidence for that? Just a nagging curiosity from the back of my skull. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 10:22, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:Just story structure / my own logical deductions, I'm afraid. I don't have any special inside knowledge or anything.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 12:36, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::I don't assume any special inside knowledge, all I asked about was the evidence on which you based your reasoning. If you deduced something, it would have been based on observable facts: what are those facts?  -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 17:31, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::: I view Animated Sentinel Prime as the Animated universe's version of G1 Sentinel Prime.  They are analogs.  That relationship goes both ways.  This is merely how Transformers Wiki categorizes its characters.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:42, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:::: Okay, I can see where that would be valid in other cases, but I don't see the evidence outside of the common name that Sentinel Prime is meant to be an Animated incarnation of G1 Sentinel Prime. Animated Sentinel Prime doesn't have any traits (in his ''role'' as a character, since we can't say anything about the G1 Prime's characterization) in common with any of the very brief appearances of the G1 character, and — feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken — there's nothing canon establishing him as an homage or incarnation. If this is policy, perhaps its merits should be revisited. [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 18:35, 8 April 2010 (EDT) 

:::::Walky's stating most of my argument very well.  Animated Sentinel Prime is, to me, pretty clearly a homage to the original G1 Sentinel Prime, with the caveat that instead of being a predecessor, he's now a contemporary. And, yes, I know that G1 Sentinel Prime generally just shows up to die, but he's also basically an equal to Optimus, one who takes a different path.  In that sense, Animated Sentinel Prime seems very much alike. Also, I'm pretty sure (and may double check) that yes, he was an intentional homage to the idea of the character, albeit one who evolved somewhat differently.  Also, Major has been used exclusively as a rank in transformers, never as part of a name.  Combining those two facts and it seemed clear to me that Sentinel Major was the same guy as G1 Sentinel Prime, just one who walked a very different path.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 19:36, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
:::::Okay, so there's the fundamental difference of views at the root of the arguments: I've always seen Animated Sentinel Prime as a completely new character with no connection whatsoever to the G1 character of the same name. To me, the idea that it was the intention of the series creators to make an homage to the G1 character seems completely unfounded. But then, homages are a matter of authorial intent, since the identity of a character as an homage can only be definitively established in 'meta' sources. -- [[User:Ayellowbirds|Ayellowbirds]] 20:25, 8 April 2010 (EDT)
::::::I can see how that would take us to different conclusions.--[[User:Jimsorenson|Jimsorenson]] 20:35, 8 April 2010 (EDT)