Editing Talk:Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II

You know, I'm reallly trying to remain calm, and it's a bit expected after the first one and everything, but seriously, book in hand, and ''oh my freaking god you guys for reals.'' - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 11:39, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:Is it that cool? Because the first one has already taken the definition of "loaded with Easter eggs, in-jokes and other cool stuff" to previously non-existent levels. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:49, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::Broke the scale, off the charts, shattered trousers past what Rocherts did with LSotW, and maybe blew our socks off if anything from his reaction. :D All I know is that I'm going to be giggling/squeeing quietly to myself, looking a loon, after I pick them up. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 13:16, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::Let me put it this way: On page 9, we get [[Octus (Animated)]].  And it's all uphill from there...  [[User:JW|JW]] 19:44, 30 June 2010 (EDT)

== Alignment is now canon ==

You magnificent bastards. --[[User:FortMax|FortMax]] 13:29, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:Hnnh, and here we all [[Talk: Alignment|thought Jim was just joking]]. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:41, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::The [[Template:Apocrypha|apocrypha template]] feels unlove. [[User:Geewunling|Geewunling]] 13:44, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:::It hasn't even been finalized yet! --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 14:08, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::::Alignment? Canon?
::::Good grief. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:18, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
Details, please? I don't know of any way for Alignment-as-a-whole to become canon other than to be reprinted in its entirety in an official publication. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 16:32, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:In the in-universe introduction, the authors note that they were going to take on Decepticon disguises from "Alignment, the true and accurate account of the future of Primax 984.0 Gamma as chronicled by Simon Furman". - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 16:35, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::  UNRELIABLE NARRATOR --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 21:33, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:::The fact remains that the specific story details of Alignment were never approved by Hasbro. Does Alignment become official simply because another official publication says so in such broad terms? [[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 07:21, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::You know, that's a good point. I wouldn't think Alignment can become official until it's actually approved as such by Hasbro. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 08:19, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::Yet another question for the next Hasbro Q&A. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 08:51, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::Isn't Liege Maximo being one of the 13 from Alignment? And "Galvatron II"? Seems like at some point it is pointless to argue against it being in canon. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 08:55, 1 July 2010 (EDT) (double checking my facts caused me to forget to sign)
:::::::Technically, Liege Maximo being one of the 13 was canonically from "Exodus" and "Galvatron II" was from a Japanese exclusive toy. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:50, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::Hasbro approved publication of ''this'' book, and there's absolutely no other sane way to interpret authorial intent, here.  The creators of this canonical Transformers book intended to make Alignment canonical.  [[User:JW|JW]] 10:48, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::Yeah, it's not like the statement was completely obscured within universal-stream language, either, meaning Hasbro could easily miss it.  It's pretty straight-forward.  Unfortunately. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 10:52, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::Unfortunately? Alignment was awesome. Hell, it's part of my personal canon.
::::::I'll just shut up now before I start rambling. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:03, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::I dunno, it all seems kind of silly to me. Because, hey, I have several fanfics (not by me) I wouldn't mind seeing canonized if we can suddenly make official with a single sentence (in a book in a different continuity by a different author, to boot) things that were never approved or officially published by Hasbro. (An author deciding to borrow elements from an unofficial story into his own official one is very different than trying to declare an entire as-is unofficial story as official canon.)
:::::::This seems to me like playing a bit too much more fast and loose with the canon wand than we should be. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 11:13, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::::Hasbro ''also'' officially approved and published the Ultimate Guide, in which Simon Furman himself says Alignment is unofficial fanfic.  As so often is the case when we get into author-intentism, it is now a contest of which author's intent we validate.  --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:32, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::I'm much more inclined to go with the intent of the writer of the contested piece proper. Soooooo... --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 11:49, 1 July 2010 (EDT)

:::::::::Later material, by definition, supercedes earlier material, yes? Ergo, previously Hasbro didn't consider it canon (when TUG went to print), but as of 2010 they do. Same as the singularity-god-Unicron thing overriding his G1toon origin, f'rinstance. - [[User:Mammalian Verisimilitude|Mammalian Verisimilitude]] 13:35, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::Not unless it's later material in the exact same continuity a la IDW or such where the later writer actually has some "right" to change the work.
::::::::::And things like the Sentinel/Zeta mixup (and there's been implications that "Hail and Farewell" also is an example) show that Hasbro or its appointed editors sometimes approve things they didn't realize the full ramifications of and later backtrack on. Do we have evidence that the current Hasbro folks know what Alignment is, rather than just thinking it was some imaginary book/story Sorenson made up out of thin air as a cute reference?
::::::::::Unless we do, I'm with Sipher on this one. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 15:57, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::Furman says Alignment is fanfic, but does that mean that he would be against canonizing it? Saying it is fanfic is a statement of fact, it was produced without official approval. But Furman has used concepts from Alignment elsewhere so he is apparently open to the possibility of it coming into continuity. But the final arbiter is Hasbro, and I'm pretty sure your "thinking it was some imaginary book/story Sorenson made up" theory is correct. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:16, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::::::::We have never stopped to question whether Hasbro knows or cares about the minutiae in Transformers fiction and works. Why the hell are we starting ''now''? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 16:19, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Because up until now (AFAIK) we've never been faced with declaring a previously unofficial story as official and canon, have we? --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 16:33, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::If it is in-universe, does that mean "the authors" you speak of are [[Bill Forster (Animated)]] and [[Jim Sorenson (Animated)]]? And this document they are talking about is "Alignment (Animated history book)" and this Simon Furman is "Simon Furman (Animated)"? Unless [[Alignment]] crossed dimensions from Quadwal to Malgus or something. - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 16:50, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::If we're getting that down-to-details, I always had a problem declaring Beta Maxx and Caliburn to be Micromasters based on a magazine cover in an Amimated book. Doesn't that mag cover signify the creation of Beta Maxx (Animated) and Caliburn (Animated)? -- [[User:Crockalley|Crockalley]] 17:44, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::They were Micromasters well before then, actually. --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 19:42, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::Right, they were always Micromasters.  Also, that magazine spoken of is a multiversal magazine, so all of the folks mentioned on it were the originals.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 20:26, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::There ''are'' times I like the way you people think. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 17:48, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::And on the other hand, there are times when I want to punch you people really hard. In the face. Twice. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:30, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::Only a punch in the face instead of murder? Either you're slipping or we are, McFeely. --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 19:16, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::::Do you know how much Cybertronix I've translated tonight? I'm too tired for murder... - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 19:18, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
(Reducing indents for readability.)  I'm honestly surprised this is a matter for debate.  We have here a genuine Transformers product which says, in the introduction, in nigh-on so many words, that "Alignment" by Simon Furman is now canon for the Marvel Comics universe.  I mean, what do we want, a burning bush?  [[User:JW|JW]] 20:52, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
:Primus projecting his voice into our heads. --[[User:Lonegamer78|Lonegamer78]] 21:19, 1 July 2010 (EDT)

Actually, McFeely, I'm joining you in wanting to punch people. This tendency to accept as canon statements from people who have no connection whatsoever to what they're retconning since they're neither editors nor official writers in that continuity is getting into irritating fanwank territory.<br/>
Especially when it comes to things like Killzone and Sentinel Major, when you have the people who ''wrote the stories in question still here and present'' and telling you basically "No, sorry, it doesn't work that way". --[[User:Jeysie|Jeysie]] 23:15, 1 July 2010 (EDT)

== Season 4: Apocryphal or . . . ? ==

So, Almanac 2 contains an episode-by-episode synopsis of what Animated season 4 would have been.  Since this is material included in an official Transformers publication, it obviously has a place in this wiki.  I assume, however, that we don't count these events as ''actually having happened'' in the Animated universe?  (I mean, an argument can be made that the events "happened", and we're just learning about them in canonical text-blurb form instead of canonical animated episode form . . . )  [[User:JW|JW]] 23:00, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:The events did not happen.  Unwritten and unpublished stories are at the same level as unreleased toys.  --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:13, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
::...er, these ''are'' published, though. Actually, I think I have an easy solution, which will have to be backed up by someone who has the book already. Does this part of the book have the "out of universe" hazard border or not?--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 23:38, 30 June 2010 (EDT)
:::It does.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 00:15, 1 July 2010 (EDT)
::::Then that likely settles it.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 00:19, 1 July 2010 (EDT)

== What To Do With Bludgeon (Animated)? ==

This book includes concept drawings for Bludgeon (Animated), who could have been a character in Season 4.  (Here's a hint: Arrrr!)  Since he never actually appeared, he presumably doesn't deserve his own page, but he's kinda cool.  Where should he be mentioned?  This page, nowhere at all, in our hearts?  [[User:JW|JW]] 01:04, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
:We have plenty of pages on unreleased characters. See [[:Category:Things that don't exist]]. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:12, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::I assume we also do this with all the other "would've been in Season 4 but Animated got cancelled" stuff? --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 11:14, 5 July 2010 (EDT)
:::We could make a Transformers Animated Season 4 page that could include blurbs of all this information, rather than have small individual articles with little information cluttering up the Things that don't exist category. --[[User:Bluestreak7|Bluestreak7]] 11:33, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
::::I agree.  As we discussed with the first AA (on things like [[M'kraan crystal (Animated)]], it is useless to create a unique page that would never contain any more content than the linking and disambiguation pages that led to it in the first place.  There should be an aggregated "List of Unused Season 4 Concepts", and possibly even a "List of Minor Characters Mentioned in AA2" (those who are only name-dropped and who get less than one sentence of content).  [[Overlord (Animated)]] is probably right at the threshold of who could ever deserve to have a unique page:  we know his faction, have an image, and literally one sentence of story.  I think peeps with less than that should all be gang-treated on one page, because they're so slight it would be hard to imagine anybody looking for them on their own.  --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 11:49, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::Then throw the unused S4 stuff in Things that don't exist. It makes sense and I like the category. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 14:26, 7 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::I agree with Thylacine on the creation of a [[Transformers Animated Season 4]] page, where we can throw the S4 plot synopses and assorted character concepts.  [[User:JW|JW]] 15:11, 7 July 2010 (EDT)

== Gargent Cluster ==
Now that the Tonka GoBots have their own Universal Stream continuity family indicator, does that make them canon enough to include on this wiki?  PLEASE? -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 15:42, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
:Not to mention the Xobitor stream. Robotix, man, Ro-freakin'-botix! --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 16:16, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::Robotix is small enough to cover here in one page, alla the Tonka GoBots page. Maybe this could revive the GoBot sister wiki idea. Last I recall it was voted for and then nothing ever happened in constructing it.--[[Special:Contributions/99.111.196.209|99.111.196.209]] 16:19, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::: There's a Quadwal cluster, but that doesn't mean we cover real life.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 17:07, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
:::: To be fair, we actually DO cover beings from Quadwal cluster, such as [[Jim Sorenson (Animated)|Jim Sorenson]] and [[Bill Forster (Animated)|Bill Forster]] who are from Quadwal -3760.925 -- [[User:Semysane|Semysane]] 22:17, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
:::::We cover them if and when they feature in Transformers media!--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:43, 3 July 2010 (EDT)
::::::Say, why don't we write up articles for every single Marvel Comics character ever-ever-ever too?  I mean, the TFs fought Doctor Doom, and he fought or met or mentioned nearly all the rest.  Right?  --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 23:58, 3 July 2010 (EDT)

== Xobitor ==

Is this the first Robotix crossover, or was [[Hector Ramirez (G1)|Hector Ramirez]] in the show or something? - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:12, 4 July 2010 (EDT)

== Annotations ==

[http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/digipedia/annotatedalmanac2.html WHA-DOOOOSH]. - [[User:Chris McFeely|Chris McFeely]] 18:03, 10 July 2010 (EDT)
:I've only read a small fraction of this, but ''MY HEAD HAS EXPLODED'' is my initial reaction.
:Thank you for making my day and taking my mind off the stuff that took place over some edits to the TF3 page. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 18:15, 10 July 2010 (EDT)
::...Oh, man, this is awesome. I have to get this! -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 18:22, 10 July 2010 (EDT)
:::They referenced the STATLER BROTHERS!!!!!!!!!!! Oh my god! My hed asplode! --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 19:10, 10 July 2010 (EDT)
Nice! Two minor reference corrections, though. "Bored now" was also said by "Dark Willow" and the company from ''Alien'' is spelled Weyland-Yutani. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:33, 11 July 2010 (EDT)
:And I will be sticking my fingers in my ears when it comes to the "English names" of the BWN planets. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 01:35, 11 July 2010 (EDT)
::I think I'll join you in the "sticking my fingers in my ears", but not because of the BWN planets. No, I'm doing it because of the Cybertronian term for a rhino, which is "Nosoron", which is the Polish name for BW Rhinox. ARGH. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 04:56, 11 July 2010 (EDT)
:"Gizmo" is the name of the robot from Superbook.  "Robik" is the "this is totally not Gizmo!" name.  --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 08:36, 11 July 2010 (EDT)

== Nintenduu LVIX ==

Don't have the Almanac myself, so is this the correct spelling? 64 should be LXIV, not LVIX. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:25, 1 August 2010 (EDT)
:It's LXIV in the book. --[[User:Abates|abates]] 15:50, 1 August 2010 (EDT)

== Title ==

This may be a stupid question, but why isn't the article at "Transformers Animated: The AllSpark Almanac II" like on the cover? (And as seen [http://boltax.blogspot.com/2010/06/allspark-almanac-ii-signing-in-burbank.html here].) - [[User:Starfield|Starfield]] 00:10, 9 August 2010 (EDT)
:My vote is to change the page title to be consistent with the actual book title. - [[User:Servitor 2152|Servitor 2152]] 12:48, 25 August 2010 (EDT)
::I agree. Let's be consistent. --[[User:-Blackout-|-Blackout-]] 12:56, 25 August 2010 (EDT)

== Some more planet references ==

Cpt Rufus here when I should be going to bed.  So I cannot go all cited references right now.

But here are more planets I spotted.  Someone feel free to cut n past and cite if you want, or prove me wrong if I am mistaken.  Its why I am posting it here instead of on the wiki proper.
There are a TON of nerd references on this map.  I get the feeling almost every single one is even if its an actual astronomical location.

** The 8 planets in the Tiresia union are planets from the Robotech Sentinels series that were mostly only mentioned in the novels.  The classifications are correct.
** Yautja is the novel name for the Predator species of fighting Arnold fame.
** Necronom IV is the name of the HR Geiger painting that became the basis for the Alien of fighting Ellen Ripley fame.
** Eberron is the name of a Dungeons & Dragons campaign world.
** Gor is the name of the planet from the misogynistic fetish novel series of the same name.
** Arus and Doom are the main planets in Lion Team Voltron.
** Stroggos is the alien world and race from Quake 2 and 4 as well.
** New Avalon is the capital planet of House Davion in the Battletech franchise. 
** SR 388 is the Metroid homeworld from the Nintendo Metroid games.
** Kobol is the apparent birthplace of humanity (kinda) in Battlestar Galactica.
** Fleed is the home planet of Duke Fleed from Go Nagai's UFO Robot Grendizer.
** Mongo may be a reference to Flash Gordon, the home planet of his nemesis Ming the Merciless.
** Ork is either Mork from Ork, the early 80s sitcom starring Robin Williams, or the Orks from Warhammer 40,000 who seem to be the only Orcs who use a K instead.
** Airlandia may be a reference to Hasbro toy property "Air Raiders".
** Crystallium might refer to Remco's "Crystar" toys.
** Melmac is the home planet of the fuzzy cat eating race "Alf" belongs to.
** Jion is another spelling for Zeon, the kind of Nazi-ish antagonists in Mobile Suit Gundam.
** Macron may refer to Macron-1 a Saban import of 2 unrelated anime series that aired in the US alongside G1 Season 3.  

Im sure I am right on most of the ones above, but a few are more or less unchecked guesses based on memories and speculation.

And is it wrong I want to run an RPG campaign using the Animated verse and this galaxy map?
:[http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/digipedia/annotatedalmanac2.html We know.] And nobody cares about your RPG. [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 18:12, 15 August 2010 (EDT)
::Well, I was impressed anyway! --[[User:Abates|abates]] 19:09, 15 August 2010 (EDT)

== The Transformers References section, red links, and consistency ==

Okay, this is bothering me.  In the Transformers References section, are we linking to the things from previous Transformers incarnations that all these little shout-outs actually reference, or are we creating new "Whatever (Animated)" pages for all for all of them?  Currently, we have a little of both, and the lack of consistency bothers me (as do all the red links for articles that haven't been created yet).  Take Sari's Master Blades, for example.  The name is obviously a reference to [[Master Blade (Masterforce)|the Master Blade from Masterforce]]; do we send the link there, or do we send it to "[[Master Blades (Animated)]]"?  I personally vote for the former method; this is the Transformers ''References'' section after all, so it makes sense to point to the thing that's being referenced.  If we do actually make articles for all these places and things that get mentioned, we can link to them from the appropriate character/episode/whatever main article.

Detour, I'm especially interested in hearing your opinion on this, since I suspect you probably don't agree with me on this point. - [[User:Servitor 2152|Servitor 2152]] 02:54, 20 August 2010 (EDT)
: Third option - "Sari's [[Master Blades (Animated)|Master Blades]] are named as an homage to [[Master Blade (Masterforce)|the Master Blade]] from the [[Masterforce (franchise)|Masterforce franchise]]." --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 09:17, 20 August 2010 (EDT)
::I nominate the third. --[[User:Detour|Detour]] 09:39, 20 August 2010 (EDT)
:::If we'll never ever be able to populate a page with more info than what is already stated on the page that linked to it, I suggest not creating it in the first place--in this case, not creating a separate page for "Master Blades (Animated)" at all.  We went through this with Almanac 1, deciding not to create "M'kraan Crystal (Animated)", and recently people have suggested the same thing for the moons of [[Thulsa Doom]].  --[[User:Thylacine 2000|Thylacine 2000]] 10:16, 20 August 2010 (EDT)
::::Then it should be "Sari's Master Blades are named as an homage to [[Master Blade (Masterforce)|the Master Blade]] from the [[Masterforce (franchise)|Masterforce franchise]]." That way it is clear that what is in the Almanac is an homage to the original and not the same thing. --[[User:Khajidha|Khajidha]] 13:16, 25 August 2010 (EDT)