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| What the fuck, Derik? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 21:18, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
| | ==Jesus, ''another'' Prowl?== |
| | Reading through [[Talk:Prowl II|this]], it's plain that most everyone but Derik is uncomfortable with Prowl 2 being declared one and the same with [[Prowl II]]. However, nobody was saying that Prowl 2 was definitively [[Prowl (RID)|RID Prowl]] either. Given that the controversy exists at all - and that we have separate [[Mirage (RID)|Spy Changer Mirage]] and [[Mirage GT]] articles - I think it's dishonest of us to lump Prowl 2 in with RID Prowl as though there was any more proof for that assumption. So that's why I wrote this new article. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC) |
| | :''"However, nobody was saying that Prowl 2 was definitively RID Prowl either."'' Walky was. I'd give a six triliters of energon to see the look on his face when he gets back from BotCon and sees that [[Prowl 2]] is back . . . [[User:JW|JW]] 03:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC) |
| | ::Lord High Dammit the third, I knew there was going to be an insurmountable pile of terrible crap I'd have to go through after I got back, but didn't expect it from JACKPOT. God dammit. That's it, I quit the wiki. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC) |
| | :::Sorry dude, but seriously. Delaring Derik wrong doesn't mean taking the polar opposite side. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC) |
| | ::::''I'm'' taking the polar opposite side? You removed all mention of Prowl 2 from RiD Prowl's page. That IS the polar opposite side. That is the removing of true information to support a viewpoint. Toys can belong to two different characters. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 03:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC) |
| | :::::Ah, I didn't realize that in the case of ambiguity, we could spread a single toy out among various potential characters. In that case, feel free to put it back in, however it's best to state it there. - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC) |
| | :There IS circumstantial proof for that assumption, which is that Side Burn and X-Brawn's "Super" redecoes were internally referred to as "Side Burn 2" and "X-Brawn 2" (I don't seem to have any evidence that this was actually the case for Prowl, though I can't imagine it wouldn't be) and that the Spy Changer's deco is a blue/white/blue layout more or less matching the Deluxe redeco's. To me personally it seems ludicrous to think that anyone could have intended this to be anything BUT the same character - in fact, I'd sooner see Mirage GT folded into Mirage's page than have its existence use to support keeping this separated from Prowl's actual page. |
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| :...do you not think Prowl 2 needs an article? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC) | | :But that's just me. (And god damn it I just want to be allowed to edit this Talk page!) -[[User:LV|LV]] 03:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC) |
| ::I don't even understand what that was about. -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 21:46, 9 January 2008 (UTC) | | ::If this whole argument began and ended with RID, I'd certainly be in favor of rolling it all into RID Prowl's page and giving the controversy a footnote. But given where the term "Prowl 2" has gone since then, I think we need to acknowledge the ambiguity for what it is, just as we acknowledge lots of other ambiguous characters (such as countless Universe redecoes). - [[User:Jackpot|Jackpot]] 03:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC) |
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| ::::[http://bwtf.com/binaltech/prowl/booklet.shtml Read, learn.] -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 21:52, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
| | ==Why the deletion?== |
| :::::Skimming the booklet, it looks like "Prowl 2" ended up as just a new body for Prowl, and is not meaningfully a separate character. It should probably be handled in Prowl's article. [[User:JW|JW]] 22:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::Amazingly actually ''reading'' the booklet yields a different result than ''skimming'' it. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
| | The latest AVP talks about how Prowl 2 came to exist. No one adds it, so I decide to do it. When it gets added, someone deletes it. Why was that necessary, especially when it gives background to this character that everyone has been curious about? [[User:Crossblades|Crossblades]] 04:45, 11 September 2015 (EDT) |
| :::::::Given my apparent lack of reading skills, I would appreciate it if you would give us a summary of your reasons for creating this page. [[User:JW|JW]] 22:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC) | | :Uh...I don't think anyone has? [[User:Escargon|Escargon]] ([[User talk:Escargon|talk]]) 16:52, 11 September 2015 (EDT) |
| ::::::::Okay! Summary follows:
| | ::What are you talking about, Crossblades? I don't see any edits by you to this page except one edit from today. [[User:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47]] ([[User talk:S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47|talk]]) 16:55, 11 September 2015 (EDT) |
| ::::::::''He's a separate character from Prowl.
| | :::Ok I see what the problem was. I previewed what I added and didn't save. Silly me :P [[User:Crossblades|Crossblades]] 04:56, 11 September 2015 (EDT) |
| ::::::::Summary ends. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
| | ::::Maybe you could see the future? I undid because you just copy/pasted the entry, including a bunch of irrelevant stuff. You need to rewrite in your own words, and change the header text. And fiction should go above the identity section, which should probably be condensed now that it's no longer a mystery and maybe moved to notes. --[[User:Giggidy|Giggidy]] ([[User talk:Giggidy|talk]]) 17:02, 11 September 2015 (EDT) |
| :::::::Okay, I took the time to read it more thoroughly. The Prowl described there is A) a copy of Prowl's consciousness, previously stored on a computer, '''plus''' B) a human (Chip Chase) in a symbiotic relationship with him, right? | | :::::Well I was in the process of editing till it got removed. But I see what you mean. [[User:Crossblades|Crossblades]] 05:04, 11 September 2015 (EDT) |
| :::::::Ergo, it's a lot like Powermaster Optimus Prime as he appeared in the G1 comics, who we don't consider to be a separate character. Heck, given that we still consider the Prime from Marvel Comics issue 80 to be the same character (a Last Autobot-empowered reincarnation of Prime, based on Hi-Q, based on Powermaster Optimus Prime, who in turn was made from a floppy disc copy of the original Prime), I don't think Prowl 2 warrants a new page. It's the same guy as Prowl. [[User:JW|JW]] 22:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::::That would be a ''completely'' adequate explanation if we didn't have this guy ''and'' the original Prowl running around simultaneously, as different individuals, in two separate places in continuity.
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| ::::::::And also if, you know, we hadn't actually gotten a toy called 'Prowl 2.' -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:29, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::::::Well, heck, dude, if you'd said that in the first place, instead of being all coy . . . [[User:JW|JW]] 22:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::::::...Isn't it ''implied'' by creating an article for him? Guys who aren't separate characters don't get one. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 22:40, 9 January 2008 (UTC) | |
| :::::::::::The poop jokes and "I may be high at the moment" summary did not foster faith in your judgment. I am now reassured. [[User:JW|JW]] 02:14, 10 January 2008 (UTC) | |
| [[Beast Wars Sourcebook]] heavily implies that Transmetal 2 Prowl is Binaltech Prowl in a new body, while Prowl from Magnaboss is the original Ark crewman in a new body. Yes, Ben Yee has made this a royal clusterfuck, but it's a ''canonical'' clusterfuck now.--[[User:Rosicrucian|Rosicrucian]][[User Talk:Rosicrucian|<sup>Talk</sup>]] 22:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :[[JaAm|WhY mY HEad hURt?]] -- [[User:SFH|SFH]] 22:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC) | |
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| I know I'm only inviting a headache by asking, but... why is RID Prowl 2 in this? --[[User:M Sipher|M Sipher]] 23:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
| | == Identity == |
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| Was Binaltech Prowl actually called "Prowl 2"? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 23:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
| | So is Prowl 2 a separate character, a character who named himself after [[Prowl (G1)]] (similar to the G1 and BW versions of Megatron), a version of [[Prowl (RID)]], or a version of [[Prowl II]]? If he is the ''Car Robots'' version of [[Prowl (RID)]], shouldn't he be merged with that article (just like Wrecker Hook and Tow-Line, Fire Convoy and Optimus Prime, Gigatron and Megatron, etc.)? [[User:Transfan 1992|Transfan 1992]] ([[User talk:Transfan 1992|talk]]) 18:34, 13 November 2015 (EST) |
| :The Blue one? I believe so. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 23:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
| | :Try reading the article? [[User:Saix|Saix]] ([[User talk:Saix|talk]]) 18:36, 13 November 2015 (EST) |
| ::What I mean to ask was, "was the toy was actually sold under the name Prowl 2"? The link to the Binaltech booklet translation Derik provides above says mentions that in the storyline the Binaltech Prowl body was originally developed to be a GT "parallel form" labelled "Prowl 2," but that plan was scrapped and that body became BT Prowl/Chip's main body. But was the character actually referred to as "Prowl 2" anywhere? Derik mentions above that we've "gotten a toy called Prowl 2"... but I think he may just be referring to the RiD toy, which he seems to think is the same character for some reason. --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 00:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
| | ::I did and I'm kinda confused. [[User:Transfan 1992|Transfan 1992]] ([[User talk:Transfan 1992|talk]]) 01:04, 19 November 2015 (EST) |
| :::Nah, the toy itself was just called Prowl. I think Prowl 2 came from the BT storyline. --[[User:FFN|FFN]] 00:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
| | :::Then read [https://www.facebook.com/AskVectorPrime/posts/722262094572430 this]. --[[User:Sabrblade|Sabrblade]] ([[User talk:Sabrblade|talk]]) 01:34, 19 November 2015 (EST) |
| ::::Yeah, I see nothing to indicate that Owl Prowl is the RID guy in Owl Prowl's IDW writeup. Small miracles. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 01:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::As a note, Owl Prowl's page should be moved to [[Prowl II]], apparently, as that's how his IDW profile writes his name. Not with a 2. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 02:22, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| I think Prowl 2 is the same character because he ''is'' the same character. From the BWTF.com translation;
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| :''At first, the Honda-designed BT-15 model was developed for this project to become the parallel form "Prowl 2," but because Prowl's original body was destroyed before the GT network was activated, it was decided that BT-15 would function as his primary unit.''
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| Remember, in ''japan'' Rid/CR takes place ''during'' G1. It's cracked- but RiD Prowl 2 is considered a G1 character in Japan. They're the same guy. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 02:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :Here's what's confusing me: It says that the BT Prowl body was originally designed to be a GT-unit called "Prowl 2," but that that plan was scrapped and it became Prowl/Chip's body instead. Where does it say that the Prowl/Chip character was actually called "Prowl 2"? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 02:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::Do you have any evidence that RiD Prowl 2 is the same guy as Prowl II? [[User:Interrobang|—Interrobang]] 02:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :::RiD Prowl is a G1 character in Japan. Hirofumi Ichikawa wallowed int he RiD/G1 connection for Binaltech. (The GT system was a reference to RiD's Mirage GT.) So ''no'', I have no evidence that G1 Prowl 2 is the same character as the ''other'' G1 Prowl 2, other than Ichikawa ''going out of his way'' to note he was going to be called Prowl 2 soas to emphasize that connection in case you were thick enough to miss it.
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| :::(Am I crabby? Yes. But I've spent this entire page arguing with people who don't know what they're talking about, and when presented with links to information them skim them, miss the relevant parts and then tell me I'm wrong.) -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 03:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::I was pretty quickly turned off to objectively considering your idea because you *started out crabby*. You do that pretty frequently, and I know I've pointed it out [[Template_talk:Stub#Proposed_change_to_Stub_Template|at least once]] and I'm doing so again because I think it's valid. I don't understand why you'd contribute here if you apparently want to be so unhelpful. Indeed, what really did your Prowl 2 page accomplish besides getting rid of *one* [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Prowl_2|red link?]] (at the time, only the Optimus Prime page linked to "Prowl 2".) --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 04:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::That's a valid complaint. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::If you truly think it's a separate, undocumented, character, then it'd be far more helpful to not submit the page until you've taken the time to build it up to some degree of completion. Even if you *must* make only a stub right away, at least make it less... vomitous. As JW said, certain aspects of your initial article did *not* speak much of the article's validity. --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 04:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC) | |
| :::::But he has acid pellets! He's and ''owl''. Poop iss inherent in the joke, and I'd be shocked if the tech-spec writer wasn't thinking it (and giggling naughtily) as he wrote the profile! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::Dude, it's just not very clear what your intentions are at all when you preface things with "I may be high". --[[User:Sntint|Sntint]] 05:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::::Which would explain my lousy section formatting, not the content! I write my [[blastification|best content]] high! -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC) | |
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| Derik - can you address my question? The paragraph you quote says that the Binaltech Prowl body was originally designed to a "parallel form" called "Prowl 2", but after Prowl's original body was destroyed "it was decided that BT-15 would function as his primary unit." So if this body is now the "primary unit" for Prowl (with added Chip) is the ''character'' called Prowl 2 or was that designation discarded along with the original "parallel form" plan? --[[User:KilMichaelMcC|KilMichaelMcC]] 03:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :Not sure! Perhaps it represents a branch point witht he Binaltech timeloop. But Project Bodyshop survives the timeloop, so...
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| : Look, he's a duplicate Prowl in G1. TM2 Prowl is a duplicate prowl in G1. Prowl 2 is a duplicate prowl in Rid... and Rid ''is G1'' in Japan. Binaltech Prowl is ''supposed to be'' RiD Prowl. The booklet included the reference for that very reason.
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| : So no Ethan, I can't produce a more explicit statement that BT Prowl is RiD Prowl2 than the ''already existing'' Hirofumi Ichikawa doing handstands in front of his lawn which he has lit on fire to spell out 'This is Prowl 2' for passing aircraft to read. I'm sorry- that's the best you're going to get. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:12, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::Derik, there is not the slightest reason to believe that Prowl 2 is a duplicate Prowl in RID. That's the part you refuse to explain, hence that's the part people have trouble with.
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| ::I'm pretty sure the Super Mode deluxes were originally solicited as "Prowl 2", "Sideburn 2", and so forth, and Prowl 2 seems to be based on Super Prowl, so presumably he made it to production before the change was made. That's still speculation, but it's much less baseless speculation than what you're presenting as fact. And I'm not presenting mine as fact. [[User:Chip|Chip]] 04:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :::The Binaltech booklet explicitly referencing Prowl 2 isn't the slightesst reason? I mean- sure, you might disagree that it's ''sufficient'' reason, but you deny it's even reason for pause or consideration? it carries no weight at all? | |
| ::::When it's a discarded idea, at most it was [[author intent]]... at some point in time. You keep forgetting that part, even when we bring it up. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 05:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :::::What discarded idea? It says 'Prowl 2' [http://www.emopanda.com/tmp/whatchutalkingaboutwillis.jpg on page 9 of the booklet], right there in plain kanji! | |
| :::::How is something that got ''into'' the finished booklet a 'discarded idea'? -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 05:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::::It also says "Optimus Prime" and "Prowl" on [http://ntfa.net/universe/english/index.php?act=view&char=Bumblebee Bumblebee's finished TFU entry]. Does that mean he's those two characters? Context, man. You keep intentionally ignoring the context. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 06:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| == Quote Problem ==
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| I think there's a problem with the quote we're using ("BT-15 acts with all of Prowl's usual personality and will", etc.) If I'm reading [http://bwtf.com/binaltech/prowl/booklet.shtml the article] correctly, that quote is from the text that Mr. Ichikawa originally sent in, but is not in the actual published booklet. Ergo, it represents authorial intent, but isn't canon. But, I might be wrong {{m-}} the article at BWTF has the translation and the original stuff all mixed together, and is quite confusing. How does it look to other people? [[User:JW|JW]] 04:19, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :I think Walky just deleted the article without moving it over its destination, so it's moot.
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| :I also think Walky forgets that 'Prowl 2' had a toy, for which this is a valid and official name, and if he'd prefer we work fro that article, 'Prowl 2' should be a redirect, not deleted. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::Prowl 2 should redirect to [[Prowl (RID)]]. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:35, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :::But Prowl 2 ''isn't'' Prowl (RID). They are separate characters. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| ::::In your personal canon, sure. --[[User:ItsWalky|ItsWalky]] 04:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC) | |
| You know what I hate? That the Deluxe redecoes didn't make it out with the 2s after their names like they were in the computers, so we could all know that "2" indicates that they're the redeco versions and our infuriatingly literal-minded fandom could stop doing things like complicating this issue into the fucking stratosphere. That's what I hate. -[[User:LV|LV]] 04:37, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
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| :And 'GT' meant Grand Tourismo and represents Hasbro's myopic view that every indy car ever should be called Mirage.
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| :Ichikawa makes stupid things suck less. I'm sorry you don't feel like keeping track of the details. -[[User:Derik|Derik]] 04:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)<div id="wikia-credits"><br /><br /><small>From [http://transformers.wikia.com Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki], a [http://www.wikia.com Wikia] wiki.</small></div>
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Jesus, another Prowl?
[edit]Reading through this, it's plain that most everyone but Derik is uncomfortable with Prowl 2 being declared one and the same with Prowl II. However, nobody was saying that Prowl 2 was definitively RID Prowl either. Given that the controversy exists at all - and that we have separate Spy Changer Mirage and Mirage GT articles - I think it's dishonest of us to lump Prowl 2 in with RID Prowl as though there was any more proof for that assumption. So that's why I wrote this new article. - Jackpot 03:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- "However, nobody was saying that Prowl 2 was definitively RID Prowl either." Walky was. I'd give a six triliters of energon to see the look on his face when he gets back from BotCon and sees that Prowl 2 is back . . . JW 03:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Lord High Dammit the third, I knew there was going to be an insurmountable pile of terrible crap I'd have to go through after I got back, but didn't expect it from JACKPOT. God dammit. That's it, I quit the wiki. --ItsWalky 03:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry dude, but seriously. Delaring Derik wrong doesn't mean taking the polar opposite side. - Jackpot 03:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm taking the polar opposite side? You removed all mention of Prowl 2 from RiD Prowl's page. That IS the polar opposite side. That is the removing of true information to support a viewpoint. Toys can belong to two different characters. --ItsWalky 03:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, I didn't realize that in the case of ambiguity, we could spread a single toy out among various potential characters. In that case, feel free to put it back in, however it's best to state it there. - Jackpot 03:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- There IS circumstantial proof for that assumption, which is that Side Burn and X-Brawn's "Super" redecoes were internally referred to as "Side Burn 2" and "X-Brawn 2" (I don't seem to have any evidence that this was actually the case for Prowl, though I can't imagine it wouldn't be) and that the Spy Changer's deco is a blue/white/blue layout more or less matching the Deluxe redeco's. To me personally it seems ludicrous to think that anyone could have intended this to be anything BUT the same character - in fact, I'd sooner see Mirage GT folded into Mirage's page than have its existence use to support keeping this separated from Prowl's actual page.
- But that's just me. (And god damn it I just want to be allowed to edit this Talk page!) -LV 03:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
- If this whole argument began and ended with RID, I'd certainly be in favor of rolling it all into RID Prowl's page and giving the controversy a footnote. But given where the term "Prowl 2" has gone since then, I think we need to acknowledge the ambiguity for what it is, just as we acknowledge lots of other ambiguous characters (such as countless Universe redecoes). - Jackpot 03:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The latest AVP talks about how Prowl 2 came to exist. No one adds it, so I decide to do it. When it gets added, someone deletes it. Why was that necessary, especially when it gives background to this character that everyone has been curious about? Crossblades 04:45, 11 September 2015 (EDT)
- Uh...I don't think anyone has? Escargon (talk) 16:52, 11 September 2015 (EDT)
- What are you talking about, Crossblades? I don't see any edits by you to this page except one edit from today. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 16:55, 11 September 2015 (EDT)
- Ok I see what the problem was. I previewed what I added and didn't save. Silly me :P Crossblades 04:56, 11 September 2015 (EDT)
- Maybe you could see the future? I undid because you just copy/pasted the entry, including a bunch of irrelevant stuff. You need to rewrite in your own words, and change the header text. And fiction should go above the identity section, which should probably be condensed now that it's no longer a mystery and maybe moved to notes. --Giggidy (talk) 17:02, 11 September 2015 (EDT)
- Well I was in the process of editing till it got removed. But I see what you mean. Crossblades 05:04, 11 September 2015 (EDT)
So is Prowl 2 a separate character, a character who named himself after Prowl (G1) (similar to the G1 and BW versions of Megatron), a version of Prowl (RID), or a version of Prowl II? If he is the Car Robots version of Prowl (RID), shouldn't he be merged with that article (just like Wrecker Hook and Tow-Line, Fire Convoy and Optimus Prime, Gigatron and Megatron, etc.)? Transfan 1992 (talk) 18:34, 13 November 2015 (EST)
- Try reading the article? Saix (talk) 18:36, 13 November 2015 (EST)
- I did and I'm kinda confused. Transfan 1992 (talk) 01:04, 19 November 2015 (EST)
- Then read this. --Sabrblade (talk) 01:34, 19 November 2015 (EST)
