Talk:Victory Leo

AFAIK, even the original toy doesn't have the 'flight mode' presented in the anime. Takeshi357 01:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It does, they're in the instructions. --Thylacine 2000 01:37, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't look like it to me. Takeshi357 14:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The 'flight mode' was another mode created for the Japanese G1 cartoons by the animators at Toei. -Mazenoise 10:24, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Further separation from Ginrai?

Thanks to HasLab, Victory Leo is about to get a lot more attention than he has for the last few decades. His stand-alone page features almost nothing from the Victory cartoon - most of that is still at Ginrai (robot). Are we sure we want to stick with the current division of info between the two pages? Would it be bad if we ended Ginrai's coverage of the Victory cartoon at the episode where he gets rebuilt and put the subsequent episodes onto VL's page? It also seems a bit questionable to have the VL toys on the Ginrai page... I don't think we do that for most other cases when someone gets reformatted into an entirely different toy, name, and persona (the TFTM reformats, Vehicon generals, etc.). --Thylacine 2000 (talk) 15:06, 8 October 2021 (EDT)

I concur that a clean break at the reformatting TFTM style would probably make more sense than the current distribution. -AzimuthAcolyte (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2021 (EDT)

Cartoon Victory Leo has a clear continuity of consciousness from God Ginrai, and this is the same standard we use for Bumblebee/Goldbug, Convoy/Star Convoy, most Megatron/Galvatrons, Megazarak/Blackzarak, et al. The only reason Victory Leo has a separate article in the first place is because the manga introduced him as a unrelated nobody. The TFTM guys beyond Galvatron were entirely new guys made from dead guys (the specifics of which, fiction can't even agree on) and the Vehicons were shell programs using older characters as batteries. Saix (talk) 15:48, 8 October 2021 (EDT)

Text from the toy bio: "The reincarnation of God Ginrai, the previous Cybertron Supreme Commander. Born of the Victory Plan thanks to a proposal from the scientist Perceptor. His personality is exactly the same as God Ginrai's was, but in an unguarded moment during the reconstructive surgery, he temporarily lost his memory and turned violent." Pretty explicit there if the cartoon weren't already. Saix (talk) 17:04, 8 October 2021 (EDT)

I think the two articles as fine as is. Ginrai gets to keep his life as Leo in one article while the guys who aren't Ginrai get to be separate. MrRald (talk) 16:20, 8 October 2021 (EDT)

Agreed, this is no different to the likes of Greatshot who has been both an original character and the same character as Sixshot in different continuities. -- Fanofcoolstuff27 (talk) 16:27, 8 October 2021 (EDT)

I am all for two articles, with all Victory Leo content on Ginrai's page moved over here, cartoon fiction included. -- Cyberlink420 (talk) 19:32, 8 October 2021 (EDT)

Yes Please! Keeping them separate is needlessly pedantic and adds nothing to readability or accessibility. We shouldn't be looking for technical excuses to make the decisions that make the wiki I'm more bizarre and confusing place. And that goes for Greatshot too. --Jimsorenson (talk) 19:35, 8 October 2021 (EDT)

Another case no one has brought up yet is Tigerhawk and Razorclaw. They are the same guy, with the latter being (an alternate universe version of) the former after having been turned evil by Unicron, a la Universe Blackarachnia but with an added name change (or even more similarly, Kingdom's alternate-timeline Darkarachnia card). In their case, they are on two separate articles of their own, BUT with a suite at the top of each that links them together. A similar situation is also found with Megatron and Megatron X from Cyberverse. We could add Victory Leo to the Ginrai suite and then decide on which page the cartoon write-up goes. We could even make a "Sixshot | Greatshot" suite for those articles too if we wanted. --Sabrblade (talk) 02:29, 9 October 2021 (EDT)

Are we going to do this for Goldbug (IDW) and Mirage (Energon) as well? Those are more direct comparisons, I think. We keep the cartoon write-ups on Bumblebee and Tidal Wave's pages without fuss; the only difference I can see here is some people here conceptualized Victory Leo as a separate guy based on less attachment to the Victory cartoon whereas Goldbug and Mirage being character reformats in their primary portrayals was more accessible in the West. If Victory got released today, would this debate be a thing? Saix (talk) 02:44, 9 October 2021 (EDT)

If he came out today I don't think it would be a debate, I think we would have just given him his own page. But ultimately one guy getting reformatted into a totally different guy with a totally different design and a totally different name and a totally different role in the story is a rare enough occurrence that we can go case-by-case without resorting to dubious slippery slope arguments. We don't need a blanket policy. We can just do what makes sense. In this case, that's a split. We're not coming for your Goldbugs I promise. --Jimsorenson (talk) 08:07, 9 October 2021 (EDT)

I don't care about Goldbug. I'm asking you to articulate the actual difference. You keep conceptualizing Victory Leo as a "totally different guy" when the cartoon and toy bio literally say "this is the same guy as God Ginrai". Saix (talk) 13:43, 9 October 2021 (EDT)

I don't think we need a general criteria but if we did it would come down to something like name, design, role in story, personality, voice. If most of those are the same then they're the same guy. If most of those are different they're not. Victory Leo doesn't look like, sound like (yes I know it's the same actor, voice is different than actor), act like, or serve the same narrative function as God Ginrai. Goldbug does look like Bumblebee, act like Bumblebee, fulfill the same role in the narrative as Bumblebee, and sound like Bumblebee.

Basically if it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it looks like a duck it's a duck. --Jimsorenson (talk) 15:32, 9 October 2021 (EDT)