Talk:Skram (G2)

So- what? It's not Skram? Are we distrusting the evidence of our eyes? Do we not think someone in War Within was Windcharger unless he's explicitly named? I seem to be missing what's going on here- because it looks to me like Skram's a member of maximal security in the BM era, several centuries after G2-- yet his wiki entry seems to be saying that another, completely unrelated character was inspired by his deco. I call shenanigans on that, and I say the trivia entry is pulling this 'not the same characterness' out of it's ass.

If I'm missing something then by all means explain it. But if you have a picture of Skram in the 23rd (or whatever) century, why isn't it part of his history here? I think Skram being active in Beast Era is a pretty interesting thing for a character who never really did anything else. -Derik 16:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I shouldn't have to explain. This bit of trivia is already in the Trivia section. Put in there by guy who helped decide his deco. How is that out of his ass? --ItsWalky 16:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

But it's not trivia. If it was in both places, it belongs in the Timelines section of his Fiction area.

Also, the trivia entry is making an unsubstantiated claim that the Maximal-guy isn't Skram. -Derik 17:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you purposefully ignoring what I'm saying? ACCORDING TO THE ARTISTS/FANS WHO COMPOSED THE IMAGE, IT IS MERELY AN HOMAGE TO SKRAM'S COLOR SCHEME. Are you only here, parrotting the same exact damn fucking argument over and over despite what I say, just to raise my blood pressure? Do our words mean nothing to you? --ItsWalky 17:05, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Really? The trivia bit just says he's an homage, and earlier everyone was asking. The linked thread on Allspark doesn't mention Skram either.

So, Trenttroop did, in fact, intend this not to be Skram... but still used Skram's color scheme? I'm still a little confused, clear that up for me. -Derik 17:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

My bedlinens are in Joyce's color scheme, but I'm fairly certain my bed is not Joyce. Okay, I realize that I'm going to have to spell this out for you in a less artful way. You see, it is possible to homage something without it actually being that something. For example, I may like Spider-Man's colors. I could put Spider-Man's colors on some guy. That doesn't mean I intend for that guy to be Spider-Man! It is merely a color homage! This is very simple, and either you are lacking some part of your brain or you are being difficult on purpose.

Do you want other examples? K-9's page treats this subject similarly. And, sure, you'd think that the Predacons behind Razorclaw on the final page are themselves, but they're actually descendents/homages/not-the-original characters. An homage does not always sctrictly mean they're the original guy. In fact, being an homage pretty much precludes them being the original guy, or it would be called an update instead.

And as I've said repeatedly, you do not have to ask Trent. M Sipher had input into the color schemes of these guys. And he was the guy who put the trivia note in. Therefore I WOULD TAKE HIS WORD ON THIS. --ItsWalky 18:02, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I see. Sipher thought it would be cute to stick the colors of a patrol specialist onto another patrol specialist- but for him to be a new character. Of course- there's nothing here to actually indicate he is a new character.

To clarify my poistion, since I was apparently insufficiently blunt;

1) That is idiotic

2) That is an unnatural reading of the cannon from the outside. The natural reading is- two patrol specialists in the same highly distinctive color scheme? Same guy!

3) You're elevatign Author intent above the actual cannon in a situation where Author intent is as it's weakest.'

My eyes, and the circumstance he appears in, tell me that is Skram. There is nothing in the cannon to indicate imply, or even really give a circumstantial reason he would not be Skram. Against it being Skram is 'Oh, I was throwing around color schemes.' -Derik 18:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't really want to have a Fiction section that says "This is definitely Skram," and then note in the Trivia section "Actually, no he's not, according to the creators." How backwards is that? The idea of a color homage may seem odd to you, but I'm pretty sure it's fairly obvious to the rest of us. I don't understand your inability to cope with the concept of a homage or why one would do such a thing. Again, that's what an homage IS. If people didn't do it, we wouldn't have a word for it. --ItsWalky 18:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I think you're falling prey to a fan-creator mindset, and aren't able to step back from this and see it for what it is; an actual, published piece of fiction, which is supposed to be read and enjoyed by people who don't know Trent and Sipher- but might be familiar with Transformers, and would, logically, conclude this is Skram.

I'm saying Author intent here is trumped by what we see, and unless some subsequent publication goes out of its way to establish this is not Skram-- hs'e Skram.

Peripherally, I'm also saying (as rudely as possible) "If Sipher, Trent, et-al didn't want peopel to conclude he's skram, they shouldn't have given him Skrams' fucking color schem. This entire debate is a result of a conscious choice on their parts- apparentlty designed to decieve and confuse the reader- and generally make it impossible to draw logical conclusions about the universe from the published material."

Homage-colors suck on toys- but at least on toys we have a way of sorting out when someone isn't supposed to be who they look like. Doign that in a comic? Somebody had a major attack of the stupids. -Derik 18:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I would say the identity of the character cannot be stated assuredly until we have official confirmation one way or the other. The author intent is merely evidence in favor of this caution, to be discarded if real fiction says one way or the other. To absolutely declare him to be Skram is misleading, especially so prominently on Skram's page, and especially especially if we have any evidence to the contrary, which we do. A note in trivia handles the matter better. Your feelings on what is and is not a good homage is not the arbitrar. --ItsWalky 19:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

You ramble on and on this, yet you fail to realize that there's nothing that states that they're the same character in the first place? The guy only fucking shows up in one piece of art as a extra to a comic with no text whatsoever for him, thus we default to author intent until canon comes around for him. Frankly, "author intent" is on a higher tier than your retarded "SAME COLORS=SAME CHARACTER" assumption. Interrobang 19:33, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

That's a bit like arguing that 2/3 of the cast of The War Within are unknowns because they never got a dialog box identifying them.

So appearance counts for NOTHING?

Look, if you want to argue 'Hey, we might be getting something with these guys, this might all be settled in an official capacity, so don't start examining it too closely yet- there's more coming' I'm fine with that. But the argument I see is "Dont' trust the evidence of your eyes, trust what the guy who designed the art (but isnt' the writer of this possibly firthcoming material) was thinking. And that's a bullshit argument. -Derik 19:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a false choice. Appearance doesn't count for nothing. It also does not count for EVERYTHING. --ItsWalky 19:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Neither does Author intent. Appearance does count for everything (or at least a lot) in Transformers in most cases (such a white-tiger-deco'd patrol cars) yet apparently in this case- it counts for nothing, and Author intent counts for all? -Derik 20:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd say the results are inconclusive. Which is why the appearance of the Skram-esque guy goes into trivia, not the fiction section. --ItsWalky 20:38, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

War Within was clearly stated to represent old characters in prehistory. A one-off group shot of unnamed characters, that aren't likely to get any fiction, wasn't. Beyond Tigatron, which was indicated by many cues other than color scheme, including "author intent". Interrobang 20:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I think there are far more people who have no idea who Skram is in the first place so there is not a one for one based on colors of someone you don't know, and have never heard about. If I understand this correctly, this is based on a group shot of lots a similar designed patrol guys in different colors. I imagine there are other panels in transformers that have background charaters without names. Fans can place names on them if they want, and while author intent might be a good gauge as to who is who, it doesn't always workout that way in the end. It might be easy to pick out a relatively known robot out of a group in War Within because of an enlarged group knowledge of the subject, but a G2 comic character is not going to have as large of a group base for such knowledge. Until this debate happened, I've never even heard of, much less seen Skram. So the likely conclusion is that a trivial note would be fitting for a trivial one shot deal. Now if someone decides to do an Adventures of the Maximal Security Patrol, or some such thing, then you might get more useful information. ~Ithekro

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