Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

I did wonder about this news item which Nevermore linked to on the Talk:Toei page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --abates 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --DrSpengler 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

Maybe it was Burbank Animation?

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--71.142.249.86 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --abates 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Burbank's official website doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. This article says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --DrSpengler 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)

I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --FortMax 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even harder to figure out. --DrSpengler 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --Bluestreak7 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) ---Blackout- 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)

If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found a couple so far, though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --DrSpengler 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. ---Blackout- 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)

I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found this PDF document which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. Danja 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

Ok, definitely not Burbank. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". Danja 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)

Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. Danja 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)

Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --flicky1991 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)

Hasbro Q&A

Anyone tried the Hasbro Q&A yet? Maybe that might help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? Item42 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)

No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --abates 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)

Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much anything whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. Item42 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

Identification criteria?

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --DrSpengler 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?

We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R (アニメアール) as working on the show and also Korean studio Daewon Animation (大元動画); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Evan1975 (talk • contribs).

I might have cracked it

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "Auto Berserk" and "Kremzeek!", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "Make Tracks" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "Triple Takeover" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "A Prime Problem", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "Auto Berserk", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - Chris McFeely (talk) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --DrSpengler (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --DrSpengler (talk) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)

It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - Chris McFeely (talk) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --DrSpengler (talk) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - Chris McFeely (talk)

OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - Chris McFeely (talk) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)

It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").

Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "War Dawn" and "Starscream's Brigade"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "The Secret of Omega Supreme", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.

That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.

From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - Jon T (talk) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)

I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!

Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - Chris McFeely (talk) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)

For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - Jon T (talk) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)

I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - Chris McFeely (talk) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)

I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob posted a list on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - Jon T (talk) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)

OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can sort of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - Chris McFeely (talk) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)

Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - Jon T (talk) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)