Talk:Japanese Generation 1 cartoon timeline

The chronological order of BW and BW2 in Japanese continuity

(Maybe I cannot write quite clear, but I still want to say about this.) Uh, this has bothered me for few year after Beast Machines' airing. In my opinion, though it is named "Beast Wars Second", that doesn't means BW2 happens directly after BW's event. Because BW and Beast Machines must be together, and Optimus Primal died in the last, he cannot show up in "Lio Convoy in Imminent Danger" from BW2 portion. Thus, the proper chronological order (maybe) should be (Note: Ignore the BW2 manga):

Events in Planet Gaia (Lio Convoy and his crew fought Galvatron and his troops) > (Maybe BW Neo can be put there) > BW Megatron stole the Golden Disk > Axalon and Darksyde crash-landed on prehistorical Earth > events in BW > Maximal went back to Cybertron but were attacked by Vehicons > events in BM

--TX55 04:49, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

...it had been my impression that BW2 and Neo happened 'while' BW was ongoing. They represent events back in the Maximals 'native' time after the Axalon's disappearance, but before Beast Machines occoured. In short-- the airing order more-or-less reflects the order of events.

(I didn't think BW2 occurring simultaneously to BW/Metals was ever in question.)-Derik 07:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

One problem with that is that Gaia is supposed to be Earth in the far, far future, after almost all of human civilization is overgrown and forgotten. It doesn't really mesh with the "300 years after the Great War" thing. I assume that's why the timeline's writer(s) placed it somewhere in the indeterminate future. --Swift 12:21, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

References

You reference two timelines from the KP-era, fine. Are there translations of them for us to read? Is every event listed here for those two timelines? Did you add anything else in? This is a lot of content, and I'm having trouble parsing what came from where, even the stuff that looks like old info looks like it's had a lot of new additions to it. (And I still don't get how BW2 took place further in the future than BW-era.)

Also- what was the name of the manga series with the Trigger in it? I can never remember... -Derik 07:25, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Everything in the timeline is taken directly from one or both of the ones cited as references at the bottom of the page (when they had two differently expanded versions of the same historical point, we merged them, but otherwise it's pretty much word-for-word). These essentially are the translations of them, as we didn't add anything of our own in. If you're looking for what info came from which timeline, it's primarily from the longer one in the new book collection, but the Autorooper X Atari one included the expanded G1 episode info and a few additional story points about Binaltech, Robot Masters and of course Kiss Players.

Not sure on the manga series title, though. I'll have to check and get back to you on that. --Swift 12:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

So essentially- this is a translated (and merged) timeline. Fair enough. -Derik 12:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

To revise or not to revise?

So here's the question. Some people (myself included) have been fixing the odd typo, grammatical error and link in here. That's fine. But other people have actually been changing or adding to the event listings (I've had to revert a couple that altered what the original material stated). Since what we originally put in here was a literal translation of official material, I'm not sure what the wiki's stance is on further updating it, even with confirmed, non-POV references. What's the word, gang? --Swift 12:40, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd stick to what the timeline says. Maybe create a separate article for specifically the Kiss Players timeline and another article for this, plus additions? Interrobang 17:47, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Since this article is, to some degree, acting as a Primary Reference... IMO, let people revise it and add more stuff to it where warranted. But take a 'virgin' of the timeline and stick it on a sandbox page under this, and put a link to it on this page. "Here is just the two timelines translated and merged, for reference." -Derik 19:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Since Swift is familiar with the edits (and I am not) I nominate him to track down an uncorrupted-by-outside-sources version of the article and backup its contents here. Anyone else may do so if they beat him to it, of course. -Derik 21:10, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm still not entirely positive that this is the right route to take, but done. It's actually just a cut and paste of the current article - as far as I can tell, the very few inappropriate changes have been removed. However, I'm not positive that we shouldn't just lock off the original instead. Wiki gurus? --Swift 00:29, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Neither am I, but if consensus decides against it in the future it's a quick delete-job, and this opens the option. -Derik 12:05, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Interrobang. I think that this article should not be altered beyond its original parameters, and would go so far as to suggest locking it from edits completely once all typos have been removed. Can we do that, Skyblitz? --Monzo 03:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Some names

Uh, I am not sure about this, but I think maybe we should use the original name for the characters in "Car Robot / RID" franchise to avoid getting confused SINCE CR is included in JP G1 continuity rather than a single continuity. I suggest ussing "((xxx (RID)|JP name))" instead of just "((xxx (RID)))", like "Optimus Prime (RID)|Fire Convoy", "Ultra Magnus (RID)|God Magnus", and "Fortress Maximus (RID)|Brave Maximus". (especially Brave Maximus, because I really get confuse few times. Man, I really hate using Classic characters' names for CR guys.) --TX55 15:43, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

The fact that Japan is silly enough to make Optimus Prime a separate, unrelated Convoy named Fire Convoy in japan does not affect our timeline. In RiD Episode 3 the humans recognize Optimus Prime- they don't recognize "Hey, that unrelated transformer who we've never seen before!"

(I find it surreally pleasing to find that RiD, RM, the weird Manga, and KP have all been integrated into one continuity now. Now all the stuff that clashes worst with G1 is it's own sub-continuity, which is just surreally crazy. I love it.) -Derik 18:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Needs More Citation!

Just reading through this for the first time and there's some bits here at the begining that I think REALLY needs some more explication. Specifically:

Oracle reaches a desolate planet in the center of the galaxy and changes it into a verdant world.

There's no citation in this line at all. I know it's something never seen or hinted at in the original cartoon. Without a source reference it REALLY seems like someone fanficing up a connection with Beast Machines. Can we give this idea an actual Japanese source?

Oracle senses that in the far future, Primacron will create Tornadron, which can absorb all energy. Oracle summons Grimlock and other beast Transformers from the future to tell them how to destroy the threat.[1]

This is referenced to "Call of the Primitives", but there is nothing in the English version of that episode at least that hints at any time travel. If the Japanese have decided in some secondary material that there WAS time travel going on there then I think we need a (Note:) to that affect and source.

The Quintessons immigrate to Oracle's green planet. They obtain Oracle's shell, the Matrix. Oracle, who has the ability to give robots life, is turned into the ultra computer Vector Sigma. His safety key has the power to make organic life into machines, and is used by the Quintessons to transform his world into the machine planet Cybertron.[2]

This is source referenced to "Key to V.S. 1&2" and "FFoD" but neither of those suggest ANYTHING like what this says. Again, this is all smoshing in Beast Machines ideas and without any actual source reference REALLY, REALLY sounds like fanfic.

I think this is really important stuff to get fixed (or removed) if we want this article to stand up as truthful. Anyone have the refs to support it? --ZacWilliam 11:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Zac, did you miss the fact that this page is a direct translation of an official Japanese-published timeline? It's not something a fan knocked together. That said, I'd be willing to wager that all this time travel stuff about Oracle, Vector Sigma and the origin of Cybertron was probably cooked up for the timeline itself, personally, rather than having been established in any previous media. - Chris McFeely 12:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd bet the same. The CotP time travel especially smacks to me of needing to explain how Primacron's Assistant could both be Vector Sigma and give the message about Tornadron to the "Primatives" - the timeline's writer(s) must have decided it was easiest for him to just send a message from the past before he became VS. --Swift 12:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

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