Talk:Overlord (G1)

Overlord vs. Gigatron

Is Gigatron really a different character than Overlord, or is it just another instance of two seperate names for the same Transformer? Dark T Zeratul 21:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Dreamwave's MTMTE guide went on to characterise him as an ancient mechanoid who first conceived the Powermaster process, so I'd say yes. - Chris McFeely 21:53, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Raising the inevitable question- is Gigatron UK Overlord, or are Gigatron, Overlord (UK) and VOerlord (MF) all 3 seperate characters? (Overlord (UK) is certainly not Overlord (MF), he's not even a Powermaster!) -Derik 21:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a question I choose not to answer! :D (Although one might theorise that Overlord UK is the post-MF fully robotic Overlord Transtector.) - Chris McFeely 21:59, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Dreamwave also had Dai Atlas and Deathsaurus as ancient TF's. And it has Sunstorm (who is not generally a clone) as a clone, along with a bunch of other non-clones like Ricochet and Monacle. -Derik 22:03, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Mmn, but at the same time, they didn't change their names. "Same body, same names, different setting" would equal "alternate version of same character," moreso than "different name, different setting, same body" would. - Chris McFeely 22:04, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there also a UK comic character called Overlord? --M Sipher 22:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yah, from "State Games," I think. But IIRC, that was a title ("The Overlord") rather than the bloke's actual NAME, for what that's worth. - Chris McFeely 22:10, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Last of The Overlords, who had once ruled Cybertron. I construed the ovelords were reponsible for the city-state clustering, having foudned them as personal power bases before dying off of old age... but there's nothign int he story itself to support that. They were a source of stability on Cybertronw hile they held power. After they died, planetary war broke otu almost imemdiately and never really ended. One cour argue this indicates TF's, which have a sort of inherited monarchy system, were not culturally ready for self-rule.-Derik 22:25, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Going by that logic, Derik, then every different G1 continuity should be completely removed from all the others as far as characters go. Skyfire and Jetfire (his Marvel version, anyway) are obviously the same character, yet their origins are just as different as Dreamwave's interpretations of Sunstorm and Gigatron/Overlord. And as I recall, this same discussion came up regarding Stepper/Ricochet. To me, it seems like we really need some solid criteria for deciding when an American name of a Japanese character makes it a new character, and when it's merely the difference between Prime and Convoy. Especially because expecting a new G1 continuity to be exactly the same as an old one is just ridiculous. - Dark T Zeratul 11:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The point of me bringing up Sunstorm (whi in other continuities is NOT a clone) was to say "Dreamwave did somethigtn funky- but that does nto necessarily mean he's not one of the other Overlords." -Derik 20:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've gussied up the section to make the question a bit more open. - Chris McFeely 20:22, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Gingatron apparently take his QUOOTE from the UK Overlord, but his bio from his Japanese bio. (which wasn't much like wh was on the show, but there uyou go, that's why Gigatron's bio soudns so wierd.)

Based on that are we thinkign that Gigatron == Overlord UK == Overlord JP? They have to be at different points in his life-- energon figures are clearly not Powermasters or Godmasters, but are we confident in sayign hese 3 characters are in fact 1 character? -21:47, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

In different timelines/dimensions, sure. Jsut as how, as noted, Sunstorm can be a generic trooper, a super-powered clone, or a minion of Megazarak all at once. --M Sipher 21:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmn, y'know, you're right. I don't know WHY I thought it was based on his UK bio... - Chris McFeely 23:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you compare: Overlord's spec, Godmaster Ovalrolled's spec, and Gigatron's epec

You see all 3 actally cotain similar language, refering to the weapons plant in him.

So, if we assume the Dreamweave continutiy refers to Hic Gigatron (And I think it does, because we know they had plans for Gigatron from itnerviews) Then we have 3 warring interpetations of the character:

• Dreamwave: Ancient Transformer who made initial forays into what would (when later perfected by the Autobots on Nebulos) be known as Powermaster techology. Developed the technology for the original Decepticon push towards space. Powermaster.
• UK: Legendy Transformer who emerges from the shadows to wasge a one-man-war, with a promise of a full-scale invasion if he secures a beachhead. Armed with something similar to Powermaster technolgoy (dependign on what you think Energon figures are, they have to be power-related)
• Japanese: Undersea monster not seen until Masterforce's present, may have existed for centuries, but did not (based on all evidence) exist on Cybertron, or have a history there.

All 3 share elements of their tech-specs,t he weapons refinery. Two share quotes, 1 lacks a quote. They are Powermaster, Energon-figure and Godmaster.

I'm sayign 3 aspects of 1 character, with the MF version being odd-man-out because it lacks any real 'history' prior to MF.

And while the HoC Gigatron's conflict with PM Optimus was probably a reference;; to Masterforce, I thin had Dreamwave made it allt he way to Nebulos, Gigatron would have shown up there. -Derik 00:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there any canonical material linking HOC Gigatron to Dreamwave Gigatron? All DW ever officially published about Gigatron was his name and his anciently-powerfulness. No physical description, no image. James McDonaugh and Adam Patyk had said in some interview somewhere that they wanted Gigatron to be Overlord after all--but that development was never published. So does it count? If we start kowtowing to unpublished non-canonical material, don't we plummet into 'Dark Glass' territory?

My point is that given the Lioconvoy --> Leo Prime business, I think there is clear precedence to turn Overlord into Gigatron, and the DW published canonical material that gave Gigatron a different backstory never linked Gigatron to being Overlord in any way, shape, or form.

Again, though, there are TONS of instances of characters who are portrayed wildly different in different continuities. Take Marvel Grimlock vs. Cartoon Grimlock. Or Shockwave. Or Blaster. Hell, in Dreamwave's continuity, Scourge and Cyclonus are completely different robots rather than being reformatted from the seekers or the Insecticons. Should they get different pages, too? It's quite clear that Overlord and Gigatron are meant to be the same character, even if they were portrayed differently in different continuities. The same holds true for Leo Prime and Lio Convoy. - Dark T Zeratul 08:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the way this is done now with the UK story info from his bio IN the fiction section. A LOT of the toy bios actually have STORY in them when you come down to it and I don't think that story should be ignored or marginalized just cause of it's location. It's still Story and it is still something these entries should inform folks about. I think when warented Tech Spec story deserves its own entry in the Fiction catagory, such as it is here.

Sign your goddamn posts bitch. If you can't b bothered to sign in, do it manually. -Derik 03:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Combined Jet Mode

This is the first I've heard about it, and I can't seem to find any pictures. Anyone got any info on when this mode was used and/or pictures they can put up of the mode? --Nemesis Primal 21:58, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Euro Overlord bio - dimension crossing

Is that the first official reference to what we now know as the TF multiverse? --FFN 10:35, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

Overlord (G1) vs Overlord (Masterforce)

Let me preface this by saying that I think the whole 'disambig by franchise' for the Japanese G1 series is very silly and I don't like it. That said, just because this guy LATER shows up in a G1 series doesn't mean that his franchise of origin isn't Masterforce, right? So shouldn't he stay at Overlord (Masterforce), as much as I'm not keen? Or am I overthinking this? --Jimsorenson 18:41, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

I suppose if we were being literal about it, yes. But I feel that it's just a dishonest descriptor - "Overlord (Masterforce)" is a lifeless robot controlled by two human begins, which could not be farther from what the other Overlords/Gigatrons are. "G1" just seems to encapsulate the variant version fo the character better.

(I am, incidentally, really, really not happy about this, as a result of my closeness with Masterforce, and godamimt, I just really want this to go to G1, so bloody well just let it stay there guys for god's sake I am a cauldron of rage . I shook Nick Roche vigorously when I found out about this at Auto Assembly to get him to call the character "Gigatron", but it was not to be. And I know you're grinning out there, Derik, stop it!) - }Chris McFeely 18:52, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

But I feel that it's just a dishonest descriptor - "Overlord (Masterforce)" is a lifeless robot controlled by two human begins, which could not be farther from what the other Overlords/Gigatrons are.

In which case, why are they on the same frigging page?! Have an Overlord (G1) (neé Gigatron) *and* an Overlord (Masterforce) if need be, but keep them separate. - SanityOrMadness 19:28, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

I...! Well.... that.... I... like the way you think! Hmn! - Chris McFeely 19:30, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

Technically, there could be up to seven separate character pages. The only real question is which pages should be combined.

1. Giga
2. Mega
3. Overlord—Giga and Mega's lifeless (multi-component) transtector.
4. Overlord—post-human Overlord #3 after getting a life of his own.
5. Overlord—the European toy that features two Energon figures.
6. Gigatron—the Powermaster.
7. Overlord—the IDW Transformer.

For the other Masterforce characters, their human component, lifeless transtector, and post-human living transtector all share the same page. Overlord has his two human components separated out. #5 is loosely connected to #4 due to a cryptic reference to dimension-hopping in #5's bio. #6 is loosely tied to #5 by virtue of looking alike and having a weapons factory in their bodies but the mechanics of their gimmicks are different and have different names. That means #4 is loosely connected to #6 because they are both loosely connected to #5. #7 is presumably going to be a completely re-invented homage of... somebody. If it were me, because the whole mess is so complicated I would probably have all seven pages. - Starfield 22:09, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

Well, on 3 & 4, we separate Teletran-1 and Omega Supreme (Animated)... - SanityOrMadness 22:42, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

Thus, you see, the reason I just put them all on one page - becuase there's so many variant versions, a lot of which don't really have anything to do with one another beyond looking the same and having the same name, but the lines between which are blurred just enough to make it an issue of debate, that it's just *easier*. Much as it rankles me, I think this is the simplest, smoothest way of relating the information. But so far as this notion goes, I'd just put 3-4 on the "Masterforce" page, and 5-8 on a "G1" page. - Chris McFeely 08:10, 15 September 2009 (EDT)

Overlord (G1) vs Overlord (Masterforce) revisited

OK, clearly, I'm not the only person who has a hard time wrapping their brain around this whole franchise-thing. I've been dwelling on it a bit and I think the issue is this - we have only one article per character per continuity family. So, that being the case, why on Earth are we disambiguating down to the franchise (i.e. the logo associated with it) level?

Let's really examine this. Shattered Expectations came out BEFORE Shattered Glass, so shouldn't ANY SG character who appeared there go by the Transformers Collector's Club disambiguation instead? There's no SG logo or insignia anywhere on that fiction. Also, wouldn't characters who appear first in the Transformers / G.I. Joe crossover books belong in THAT 'franchise'? It seems to me that we're adding in a whole extra level of complexity for no good reason that I can think of.

Well, that's not quite true. The Unicron Trilogy was lousy with repeat names for different characters. This was, and still is, a relatively rare situation for most other continuity families. We can get the maximum benefit, though by disambiguating to the continuity family level as a default and going by franchise when necessary. And, if two articles from the same franchise have the same name, then we can disambiguate further.

Every time I see a character who was introduced in RotF having that label, even though the whole movie-verse is one big universe, it just seems incredibly silly.--Jimsorenson 03:01, 15 December 2009 (EST)

Especially now that he's appearing in Last Stand of the Wreckers, I too throw in my vote for a move to Overlord (G1). -- Dark T Zeratul 14:37, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Even if we disambiguated at the continuity family level, there's another Overlord in G1, so in this case I'm thinking neither would get the G1 disambig anyway. --abates 14:58, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Given that he's a G.I. Joe character, I don't think he really counts. -- Dark T Zeratul 15:06, 26 January 2010 (EST)

It does still count, actually. Basically, there's two things with the same name in G1, thus they need to get disambiguated a different way. Actually, no, you might be right, I forgot about Crankcase (disambiguation) off the top of my head. --Jeysie 15:11, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Yeah, Transformers should always get dibs on "good suffixes" over non-Transformers. As for Overlord.... look, the whole reason he's in this comic at all is that TF fans like him, because he IS an "old-time" Japanese G1 character. This story is going to be his most widely-exposed fictional medium, and I am fairly confident when I say that I'm not expecting to see any organic humanoid drivers show up. The uniquely Masterforce storyline elements no longer really apply; the character role is all that matters. So I think he ought to be Overlord (G1). --Thylacine 2000 15:15, 26 January 2010 (EST)

And really, if we disambig'd the same character in different continuities of the same continuity family, we'd be splitting up a lot more pages than just this; Scorponok comes to mind most readily as being in roughly the same situation as Overlord. -- Dark T Zeratul 15:19, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Why is it that people have an immense problem with giving Japanese G1 characters their franchise of origin (which has always been our rule) as disambiguations while characters in Beast Wars II, Beast Wars Neo, Beast Machines, and Return of the Fallen all get their respective franchises without a complaint? As for him appearing in a IDW comic: So what? Why should we move articles based on the flavor of the month? We've adhered steadfastly to the "franchise of origin" rule (Sideways (RID) being a prime example) and you want to break it because some IDW miniseries is imaginatively "going to be his most widely-exposed fictional medium"? —Interrobang 20:38, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Actually, I did think (and still think, for that matter) that giving characters ROTF disambigs was really silly because the movies are all a single continuity/storyline, but I got voted down on that one. --Jeysie 21:14, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Franchise of origin is a terrible way to disambiguate someone, precisely because of the problems above. Disambiguation should be by the largest set appropriate. If a character, object, item, concept, place, or whatever has a unique name, no disambiguation is used. If there's more than one name but only one of the name shows up in a continuity family, then that's how we should disambiguate. If there's more than one name per continuity family but only one of a name shows up in a franchise, we should use that. If there's more than one name per franchise, then we should further sub-divide. Otherwise we are conveying mis-information. This all got started because of rampant reuse of minicon names in the UT ... there's no reason that to infect ROTF and G1 and whatnot. --Jimsorenson 21:53, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Seems to me that problems with general policy should be taken up in the community portal discussion. UT Mini-Cons are not the only example of massive name reuse within a continuity family—you completely ignore the Beast Era and G2 being part of the G1 continuity family. Your proposed system of disambiguation would require us to move every single G1 character whose name got reused in either one, since "G1" would be taken to mean the continuity family and not the actual franchise. Are you okay with "Megatron (original G1 Decepticon leader)", since BW Megatron is of the G1 continuity family as well? —Interrobang 22:17, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Perhaps the discussion should be moved. But I'll point out that, in your example, the guy we currently call Megatron (G1) would default to Franchise, which for G1 we've always taken to be .... G1. So he'd remain Megatron (G1), and the guy we call Megatron (BW) would remain Megatron (BW). I'm sure you CAN find a bad example. (That G1 is both a Franchise and a continuity family is clumsy, but there you have it.) All that would happen is all the ROC and Masterforce and Headmaster disambiguations would mostly default to G1, which is IMO a good thing. It'd mean some work on the ROTF disambiguations, but it's much better to do the work NOW, before it gets too big, than later.--Jimsorenson 22:49, 26 January 2010 (EST)

"Megatron (G1)" would become ambiguous. Someone at the Megatron (G1) page could reasonably assume he was the only Megatron for the whole continuity family. I would suggest "Megatron (G1 franchise)". The continuity family for the movie-verse is currently live-action film series. So what would the disambiguation be? My opinion is that disambiguation by franchise isn't broke so don't try to fix it. - Starfield 23:02, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Jim, but wouldn't you be "conveying misinformation" by implying "Megatron (G1)" is the only Megatron in the G1 continuity family? And logically, we would have to move characters like Cheetor (BW) and Randy (BWN) to "Cheetor (G1)" and "Randy (G1)". —Interrobang 23:12, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Yes, that's what we'd need to do for Cheetor and Randy and whatnot, and I think it'd be for the better. And the G1 franchise / continuity family is an odd case but not one that I think anyone will find especially confusing.--Jimsorenson 00:47, 27 January 2010 (EST)

I don't think I could possibly agree with this any less. This seems like an absolutely ridiculous amount of work for zero benefit whatsoever and a large number of detriments. --M Sipher 01:49, 27 January 2010 (EST)

Yeah, that's what we said three years ago when we changed things from what you suggest to what we have now. Hot Shot (UT) used to be a page location! --ItsWalky 22:52, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Why ever did you change it? Hot Shot (UT) is both more intuitive and more accurate than Hot Shot (Armada). (I know, I know, assloads of mini-cons, but again, it seems like a shame to hold the whole brand hostage to those corner cases.)--Jimsorenson 00:57, 27 January 2010 (EST)

Because it was more useful and more informative to use the franchise-of-origin, rather than the more-obscure continuity family names. I see no reason to change it. --ItsWalky 01:00, 27 January 2010 (EST)

More useful how? Informative I'll grant, in that it conveys more information, but I'd contend that that's not the purpose of a disambiguation note. I mean, if that REALLY was the TRUE purpose, we'd put the franchise of origin as part of EVERY article's name, whether we need a disambiguation note or not.--Jimsorenson 01:09, 27 January 2010 (EST)

There are 2 different UT Ironhides, Prowls, Checkpoints, Cliffjumpers, Infernos, Thrusts, Sunstorms, Smokescreens, Knock Outs, Wreckages, Backstops, Armorhides, Blurrs, Laserbeaks... --M Sipher 01:45, 27 January 2010 (EST)

Correct, so those guys would go down to the franchise level ... and the literally hundreds of guys who DON'T have two incarnations per continuity family wouldn't.--Jimsorenson 10:06, 27 January 2010 (EST)

I'm with Jim, disambiguate by largest available grouping. The ONLY problem with this system is that G1 is a franchise and a continuity family, and that should really be changed. Khajidha 10:43, 27 January 2010 (EST)

Maybe the continuity family stays (G1) and the original franchise becomes (TF) since it WAS just called Transformers and the term G1 was a later creation?--76.28.76.206 10:47, 27 January 2010 (EST)

Side note:

"Let's really examine this. Shattered Expectations came out BEFORE Shattered Glass, so shouldn't ANY SG character who appeared there go by the Transformers Collector's Club disambiguation instead? There's no SG logo or insignia anywhere on that fiction."

Er, SE was intended as a part of the SG franchise, so I don't see the issue here. --Jeysie 15:27, 26 January 2010 (EST)

Also, didn't we do it that way to start with and found it too confusing and hard to keep straight? Judicious use of the term "usually" can often improve the functioning of a rule.Khajidha 16:25, 26 January 2010 (EST)