Talk:Shadow Striker (ROTF)

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=bitch&go=Go Almost all of these are problematic. 164.76.166.210 22:59, 4 February 2010 (EST)

In what sense? -Derik 01:03, 5 February 2010 (EST)

The over kind. --ItsWalky 01:12, 5 February 2010 (EST)

"Problems are never over, finished"? -Derik 01:13, 5 February 2010 (EST)

I would assume "problematic" to be meant in the sense of "bitch is a loaded and often offensive term, even when used without malicious intent, so maybe we should examine our usage of it and perhaps reconsider its appropriateness." Which I would be inclined to agree with. At the very least, we should reduce the number of "does X have to choke a bitch?" references. --KilMichaelMcC 03:16, 5 February 2010 (EST)

That's not an issue with "bitch," that's an issue with a shallow depth-of-humor on the wiki. I agree wholeheartedly that such oft-repeated jokes should be whittled down to only the best examples. (We did this for "compensating for something" jokes a years ago.) -Derik 03:39, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Well, I would add that the number of "choke a bitch" references on this wiki I'd prefer to see would probably be zero, as humor evoking violence against women is not a thing I am particularly fond of. --KilMichaelMcC 03:49, 5 February 2010 (EST)

There's.... two. Here and Darth Vader's page. Not exactly an epidemic. --ItsWalky 08:21, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Infiltration #6, Wanted: Galvatron, Overlord - Terror of the Chokon Tornado. Hardly an epidemic, still. Then again, they aren't exactly good jokes either ('cept for the Masterforce one), so if anyone can come up with something better...Geewunling 09:11, 5 February 2010 (EST)

The Darth Vader one and the Masterforce one are both great. The rest can be trimmed away. -hx 10:33, 5 February 2010 (EST)

There were SIX, not two. It's down to four now. Still four too many, if you ask me. And the 38 total uses of "bitch" is sure as hell too many. --KilMichaelMcC 11:41, 5 February 2010 (EST)

How dare you say "hell." That is absolutely disgusting of you. --ItsWalky 12:08, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Are you actually capable of discussing things without sarcasm? That's not a rhetorical question, I am seriously asking that. --KilMichaelMcC 12:24, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Do you have to be such a whiny bitch when you say it? -Derik 12:38, 5 February 2010 (EST)

You know, the issue raised in the initial comment from the anon at the top of this talk page (casual use of problematic language) is actually kind of a serious one, and I was just wondering if there was actually going to be any consideration of it, or not. --KilMichaelMcC 12:49, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Well I find "slag" problematic and degrading towards women. I also find "problematic" to be a uselessly non-specific term. -Derik 12:58, 5 February 2010 (EST)

That's actually sort of the whole point of this sort usage of "problematic." It is intended to draw attention to issues of this nature in a non-accusatory sort of way. But I digress. "Bitch" is a word I try to avoid using in general these days, given its connotations. I would prefer if it wasn't used at all on this wiki, much less 38 times. And "Choke a bitch" references, to me, are not funny. The original edit removing the ref from this page was noted "This is offensive" by the anon. Walky reverted, saying "It's called a reference to popular culture." But that's a not a refutation of the point, given that popular culture is full of offensive stuff. --KilMichaelMcC 13:12, 5 February 2010 (EST)

If it's suitable for Transformers fiction, I don't see why it shouldn't be for us. --Detour 13:14, 5 February 2010 (EST)

I don't have a problem with most offensive language in and of itself (I think I stopped gasping over most of the four/five-letter words back in grade school), but I do agree that some tones of how it's used can make me wince sometimes. There's an admittedly fine line between snark and insult/hateful, and I'd prefer we try to stay on the former side of the said line and err in favor of just removing/side-stepping when the line gets too fine to tell. --Jeysie 13:16, 5 February 2010 (EST)

I don't see how those uses are directly relevant. One uses the term in reference to the concept of payback, and one uses it as a synonym for "complaining" or "whining". "Choke a bitch" is a direct reference to violence against women, not something I find appropriate for use here. Khajidha 13:18, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Yeah, pretty much. Depends on how it's being used, not solely on the word itself. --Jeysie 13:19, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Actually, "choke a bitch" is a direct reference to a hilarious sketch from Chappelle's Show where Wayne Brady -wholesome, inoffensive daytime TV host Wayne Brady, the "safe" black man- takes Dave out for a drive, and goes through about every "gangsta" cliche possible, from gunning down a friendly white cop for no reason, picking up money from his stable of prostitutes ("Does Wayne Brady have to choke a bitch?"), etc, and absolutely scaring the living shit out of Dave. The problem is not the existence of the phrase, but its overuse. Much like most great lines, and far too many bad ones. Removing every reference to it would suck. --M Sipher 18:09, 5 February 2010 (EST)

Yeah, that's why I used it. Shadow Striker's bio is entirely about Bumblebee having to fuck her up because she was uppity chick, despite Bumblebee being considered by everyone to be a very nice guy. Frankly, the bio's potentially more offensive than the quote, since the former had no hint of self-awareness. It was a commentary on the bio itself, nothing more. --ItsWalky 12:52, 6 February 2010 (EST)

It is still referencing violence against women, I find it sad that people find that funny. Khajidha 11:46, 6 February 2010 (EST)

Please, find somewhere on this page that someone found violence against women funny. I don't think you really understand. --ItsWalky 12:54, 6 February 2010 (EST)

I don't think you understand. I am someone who is perfectly aware of the Wayne Brady sketch. (Although not everyone in the world is, you know.) The use of the phrase "choke a bitch" in that sketch is a reference to violence against women. That's what the words "choke a bitch" mean. They don't somehow stop meaning that just because you're not directly referencing or laughing at actual violence against women. Some people don't like to see phrases like "choke a bitch" used for intended humorous effect, and for perfectly reasonable (and perhaps, extremely personal) reasons. --KilMichaelMcC 13:14, 6 February 2010 (EST)

Kil has said it better than I could. Khajidha 13:15, 6 February 2010 (EST)

So we're all perfectly all right about this page being about Bumblebee's violence against a woman because she pissed him off so long as we don't use any minor expletives in the captions. Because nobody's raised one damn word about the article itself. But the pop culture reference that brings attention to the idea that, hey, maybe this is going a little too far, that is what we have a problem with. --ItsWalky 13:19, 6 February 2010 (EST)

They are in a war, you know. A fight is expected. The "choke a bitch" line seems to be making it personal. Khajidha 13:23, 6 February 2010 (EST)

The bio is entirely about how personal this is for Bumblebee. It was not about a random battlefield matchup. Bumblebee finds Shadow Striker's personality irritating, and so he's seeking her out to beat her the hell up. "BUMBLEBEE isn’t easily frustrated, but SHADOW STRIKER seems to have done the trick. Something about her personality, from her sneering expression to her constant sarcastic remarks, just gets on his nerves. SHADOW STRIKER is a plain unpleasant robot, and BUMBLEBEE is determined to make her regret her insults." --ItsWalky 13:30, 6 February 2010 (EST)

The content of the article is not at issue to me, as I assume it to reflect the content of the bio. I truly do not care for the word bitch, try not to use it myself, and would prefer not to see used as casually as it sometime has been on this wiki, given its connotations.

My dislike of the specific phrase "choke a bitch" does not have a damn thing to do with "minor expletives," as it seems that the more I read/hear that phrase the less I remember Chapelle's Show and the more I remember something else that I would rather not have brought to mind, and that is all I am willing to say about that. Suffice to say, I'd rather not see it as part of caption jokes here. If the intent of using that reference was to "bring attention to the idea that, hey, maybe this is going a little too far" then that failed with me, as I tend to assume references to a sketch comedy show are intended as humor. If we want to critique the content of the bio, then we can do that in more direct ways. I don't think I am capable of participating in this discussion any more. --KilMichaelMcC 13:48, 6 February 2010 (EST)

"Choke a bitch" makes it seem as if Bumblebee is being violent towards her as a female in ways that he would not be if she were a male. The bio focuses on her personality, not her gender. Khajidha 13:52, 6 February 2010 (EST)

You can get angry at a female due to her personality and have it still be sexist. Does Bumblebee act as violently towards males who tease him? Or is it because this female places herself as his social better? That's basically one of the more popular definitions/uses of the word "bitch." A woman who simply asserts herself (interpreted by misogynists as being a jerk). That's why some feminists wish to reclaim it as as a positive word. --ItsWalky 14:35, 6 February 2010 (EST)

Or is it simply because no male TF has been quite so good at being annoying? There is ambiguity there that is not present in the phrase "choke a bitch". Khajidha 14:43, 6 February 2010 (EST)

Not so funny caption

I don't get the new joke, I don't mind the previous joke, but the new one just doesn't work for me, could I or someone else make a new joke, please?ACIDSTORM92 22:14, 18 February 2010 (EST)