Talk:Marvel Comics continuity

Can we get a timeline to go along with this? I can do up a template to (I think) make it really clear how US and UK stuff intercuts. (Which I guess means I'm asking should there be a timeline, then volunteering to work on a sane layout for it.)

I actually went and took notes on all the explanations of the Timeward US/UK split from the UK Letters pages- and I think I've got a pretty clear idea exactly how the two are separated. (or at last the official explanation thereof.) -Derik 17:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I think a timeline would be prudent. Though I would imagine it might be hard to do outside a flowchart, what with the 30 million different continuity branchoffs. --ItsWalky 17:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Depends on the approach. I'll mock something up.

Unrelated, have we considered a 'year' page? Similar to our overall Transformers timeline but like 'in 1988, these comic issues were published, these episodes aired, this other major event took place...' I ask mostly because, technically speaking, you should always include a year on the copyright notice on pics, and sometimes I'm ballparking. -Derik 18:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Timeline Mockup

Okay, I'm picturing something like this. Post-timewars It'd probably be easier to jsut switch to three-collumn than the interleaved Earthforce/UK layout I have there (and the interleaving is pretty bad here since I hacked this together with photoshop.) But this is essentially what I'm proposing.
Relevant ideas conveyed:

• Time Wars created a new timeline for the US stories (stated in the letters pages)
• Target 2006 and everythign that directly resulted from it (which is about 2/3 of the UK stories) didn't happen in that new timeline. Thus- the Nemesis is suddenly around again.
• Earthforce is a less drastic branch- it continues the UK timeline, but the 'UK Future' of the TFTM Comic Adaption is no longer valid. Nonetheless, Earthforce continues on it's merry path, and Unicron will arrive in 2006 while in the US he shows up early in 1991.
• Peace is the endpoint of the Earthforce timeline (Dreadwind made a poitn of Peace's healthy Rodimus not being in conflict w/ sick Rodimus from Aspects in the letters page.)

The result is- the US timeline stands more-or-less alone. A few UK stories took place in the new UK timeline (Deathbringer demonstrably, but probably also some other stuff like Decepticon Dam Busters that didn't matter that much.) Some holes had to be filled in the US timeline- and Marvel UK suddenly publishign the long-delayed Gi Joe teamup that explains why Bumblebee became goldbug instead of being rebuilt by Wreck-Gar (since Wreck-gar's visit had just been erased) really makes a lot of sense.

The UK timeline isn't the mess everyone claims it is- time travel ON TOP of the branching timelines and mini-Crisis makes it hard to sort out.... but there actually is a method to the madness.

(Of course, now you'all will probably tell me I'm crazy and am making things up.) -Derik 21:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

You are indeed making a lot of stuff up. Less speculation, more facty, please!--ItsWalky 18:04, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Hrm, i thought of a better visualization that hangs on less of that anyway. I'll get around to it. -Derik 19:48, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

It's been quite a while but just where does the idea that Time Wars altered the past come from? I remember someone suggested this in the UK letters page around about the 230s when they tried to guess at how Goldbug had become Bumblebee again in the Pretender Classics (before the relevant stories were printed), but the response was that this was wrong and the time changes hadn't gone backwards.

The reason for the UK comic suddenly running the G.I. Joe vs Transformers series was entirely due to problems of schedules - because the UK comic was weekly and some of the US stories were short enough to reprint in three issues the comic kept catching up so the next US story wasn't yet ready. This led to reprints in issues #221-231 & #255-258 that a lot of letter writers complained about, whilst the problem kept recurring so they instead ran the limited series as it could create a much larger gap in the publication schedule and solve the problem once and for all. It was always billed from the outset as including "the US origin of Goldbug" and never presented as being in continuity. (Similarly no effort was made to rename "G.I. Joe" to "Action Force", even though that would have been the "correct" name at that point in their UK timeline.) Timrollpickering 20:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Timeline Mockup 2

Simplified.

Okay, this si what happened. Around timewars, the Original Target 2006 future got invalidated, so when Rodimus et al, traveled froward, ti was suddenly to a new and different future. thus, Earthforce is after Timewaars in a really straightforward 'this possible future that caused us no end of grief is no longer possible' sort of way'

Simultaneously, the timerify in timeaars created a 'post crisis' continuity that the US stories from, say, US #72 forward take place in. Everythign replating to the time-travelign Galvatron got yanked out (and suddenly the nemesis is no longer destroyed, etc.) This is explicitly explaind in the US letters page.

UK continuity continues relatively unimpeded, just with the original future invalidated, US continuity takes place on a post-crisis (post-Timewars) earth. -Derik 22:31, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Neither of these theories is right. Its actually all very simple. In the UK continuity there are 3 timelines. The main timeline splits from the original by Galvatron arriving in Target: 2006. The space time rift repairs itself by replacing the original time line with the 'Rhythms of darkness' timeline in which Galvatron never time-jumped. Earthforce takes place between 'Price of life' and 'Surrender' in a massive plot loop. (This was due to publishing problems at the time). A complete list can be found on the Marvel wikia and on a talk page of the Transformers wikia. Have a look and you will see it all makes sense. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.194.221.231 (talk • contribs){{#if:07:43, October 6, 2011 (EDT)| 07:43, October 6, 2011 (EDT)|}}.

This stuff is interesting. It seems almost possible to nail down what the deal is with all the timelines (OK, maybe not The Big Broadcast of 2006). It is true that Rhythms of Darkness is one possible post-Time Wars replacement for the original UK future. Another possible replacement is the main continuity we got in the comic. It makes me wonder what event caused us to get Unicron loosing instead of Unicron winning. I'd like to hear more about what exactly was explicitly explained in the US letters page. Preferalbly withuot typos. Why was the US letters page talking about Time Wars? - Starfield 12:31, 6 October 2011 (EDT)

On plot summaries

I made a suggestion in regards to "in-universe" story summaries, but I made it in response to a year-old discussion on a character's talk page, so I think it probably was overlooked. I don't know if the suggestion is still relevant, but this seems to be a good place to put it forth again.

For context, the discussion was about writing summaries as in-universe, as actual events that really happened, and the counter-argument was that people may want to go back and view a story, but writing in-universe would not allow issue or episode number/title references.

What if we write the articles referring to plot points as events, as opposed to story titles, but we still put superscript links where appropriate, with the matching footnotes used to denote episode or issue numbers and titles? That way the article itself is still written "in-universe", but we also provide a reference for anyone who wishes to watch or read the plot in question.

Like I said, it was a year ago discussion I replied to. Maybe a solution's already been found? --Sntint 18:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Footnotes, italicised notes, contextual linking like "Blaster was surprised to see Straxus single again, as he had previously been seen getting gay-married in Hawaii." Doesn't that about cover it? -Derik 18:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Also, Template:Storylink --KilMichaelMcC 18:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Balls

Do we really need to be making such jokes in front of kids? And it's not even a very good "balls" joke. --Rotty 19:02, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I can change it to "testicles," if you want. --ItsWalky 19:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but do we really want to be referring to the Classics comic as something creative? --Rotty 19:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

How about the "semen-encrusted underside of the continuity"? --ItsWalky 19:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Perfect! --Rotty 20:01, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I, uh, I kind of agree with Rotty's first statement that this isn't even a good joke. It's a real stretch, honestly. The classics bubble itself is the only remotely phallic part of the diagram so I don't see how it could be considered the balls. Also, the diagram kind of sucks anyway. Sorry, Walky.  :( --Steve-o 19:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Marvel UK/Earthforce, post-Classics & RG1

I've been thinking about this recently. Right now, we basically treat (for the purposes of pages like this) Marvel UK as a single timeline with Marvel US up until Earthforce, outside of Bumblebee's rebuild.

Given that we now have two "continuation" continuities that explicitly include only Marvel US stories, and none of the others actually follow up Marvel UK even if they don't reject it, does this really hold up any more? Might it not be more accurate - especially in the light of notes like this one on Wolf in the Fold!:

With this issue, the Survivors storyline now explicitly ties into the alternate continuity of the Earthforce storyline. It's not clear where one draws the line between the main storyline and this portion of the Earthforce branch.

... - to go with Occam's Razor and regard Earth-120185* as one single continuity, including Earthforce, which diverges much earlier with the first UK-exclusive story, even if it subsequently includes slightly-tweaked versions of the US stories (tweaks including Bumblebee/Goldbug's rebuild, Skids in Limbo, other minor changes), and Earth-91274* as another (*I don't want to use "Marvel UK continuity" and "Marvel US continuity" for this since, of course, Marvel UK published all of both continuities within G1!). RG1, Classics and any others that follow the Marvel US version of the Unicron battle (as opposed to the unseen Earthforce version), on this view, are splinter timelines from 91274.

Thoughts? - SanityOrMadness 21:18, 6 April 2013 (EDT)

The problem with Earthforce being seen as the proper path for the UK timeline is that there's simply no feasible way of making it work for the timeline. Looking at "...Perchance to Dream", we've got a Galvatron from nowhere sneaking into the empty Ark in space to revive Autobots who fell during the Underbase Saga. Except that it just doesn't fit with how post-Underbase Saga stories flow. If it's meant to be Galvatron II as Furman said, then by the time Galvatron II comes along, the Ark is in full use by the Autobots and only abandoned in space when Primus teleports everyone to Cybertron at the end of "Out of Time!", which is too close to "On the Edge of Extinction!" for the entirety of the Earthforce stories ("The Magnificent Six!" included) to have happened between those events. Not to mention how, starting with "Starting Over!", Megatron is suddenly back and in command on Earth when he should be either on Cybertron, trapped between spaces with Ratchet, fused with Ratchet, or inside a pod in the Ark until Grimlock accidentally revives him (after Unicron's attack, even). He's not Straxus-Megatron either since the "Two Megatrons!" story took care of him. And the last pre-Earthforce, non-future UK-only stories took place around the time of the Matrix Quest, tying into that saga, preventing Earthforce from having occurred any earlier than what was already a very critical and tightly-knit era of the story. The UK continuity was simply so reliant on the US stories that trying to fit in Earthforce, in any conceivable manner, as the primary course of events for the UK timeline to follow over the path taken by its reprinted US stories becomes a fool's errand. The only reason the Carnivac Earthforce stories seem to follow on from Carnivac's post-Time Wars stories is because those few Earthforce were a rare case of Earthforce stories actually attempting to try and fit in with the main timeline, whereas the main bulk of the Earthforce saga just didn't and couldn't do that due to how much the UK timeline depended on the path of the US stories, and due to the restrictions and inabilities from the time that prevented Furman from writing stories that could fit in like the pre-Earthforce stories. --Sabrblade 01:55, 9 April 2013 (EDT)

Okay, straight away I took US #60 as the (negotiable, might need to move it a bit - in retrospect, #61 may make more sense) basis for when the "US reprints stopped counting for UK/Earthforce", partly on publication order - the very next UK story was ...Perchance to Dream, which starts the Earthforce divergences with that alternate Galvatron II - but partly because of a whole slew of your points which come from later issues. The Megatron/Ratchet abomination was revealed in US #69 - before that, Megatron was simply shunted into nowhere in a very similar manner to US #25. The Earthforce version obviously had a different result. Rhythms of Darkness! was #67. Again, we already know the Earthforce version of the Unicron battle, while impending and ultimately unseen, can't possibly have gone as it did in US #75, so why should the Galvatron pulled from yet a different timeline have acted in exactly the same way (and this is basically what the existing note on Galvatron II#Earthforce says!)

That's the whole nature of splinter timelines - things went differently. You might as well ask how the (unnamed) Nemesis was blown up in orbit by Galvatron I in Target: 2006 (UK), yet have been parked under the sea for four million years in the later US stories like Surrender!. The trick is to identify the point at which things START going differently for our purposes - i.e., the last US issue that could possibly have occurred in the Earthforce (post-Time Wars UK) timeline. After that, both timelines build to "Unicron is coming", but in very different ways (he apparently takes longer to get there in Earthforce, giving time for the Autobots to rebuild troops without resorting to nucleon and search for other stuff to stop him, like investigating the Underbase's original site) - SanityOrMadness 19:42, 9 April 2013 (EDT)

Earthforce would have to begin even later than US#61 since "Whose Lifeforce Is It Anyway?" and "The Greatest Gift of All!" both tie into the Matrix Quest. And there's still some other quibbles to think about. Consider this. Galvatron II was plucked from his timeline in US#67, and not given his orders until US#69. From here, in order for him to appear in Earthforce, we're to imagine that he ignored his orders and went to the Ark instead (like the page note you mentioned says). This would suggest US#69 as the cut off between the US timeline and the Earthforce timeline, right? However, US#69 is the issue that reveals Megatron as having merged with Ratchet, which conflicts with his appearance in Earthforce. I get what you're saying about Megatron winding up on Earth instead of being merged to Ratchet in unspace, but by the time Galvatron would get to go to the Ark, Megatron's a merged monster plucked from unspace. And the Ark is empty when Galvatron arrives, yet US#69 ends in a cliffhanger that last showed the Ark to be fully occupied by a whole host of Autobots. --Sabrblade 01:34, 10 April 2013 (EDT)

Right, so we've nailed the divergence point to "during the Matrix Quest" then. The Autobots start looking for the Matrix in both timelines, but things go differently from thereon in (call it "shortly after #61" for simplicity, or take it right up to the Matrix running away with the shattered Thunderwing). But #67-onward absolutely cannot happen the same way in the 120185/Earthforce timeline, since Galvatron II gets his Marvel US orders in a timeframe which has already become irreconcilable for the reasons you give. Thus the events of Galvatron being yanked into the past and what happens thereafter must, to greater or lesser extents, happen differently since Megatron didn't end up merged to Ratchet in unspace and the Ark wasn't full of Autobots.

Thing is, we're tramping old ground here. We already KNOW Earthforce isn't the same timeline as Marvel US. That's accepted fact. This is about how to represent that fact. And I'm getting a tad confused about what you're trying to say - my point is that:

1. No continuation of Marvel Transformers uses Marvel UK continuity, and at least two explicitly reject it.
2. Of those that don't explicitly reject it:
   • "Another Time & Place", which you contended on Generation 1 continuity family should be filed under Earth-120185, cannot occur following Earthforce, due to the effects of nucleon in it per the revivals in Marvel US #70, when those characters were revived through other means in Earthforce.
   • Marvel G2 doesn't mention it in any way. Then again, it barely touches on anything from the latter part of Marvel US either, and reverses (or contradicts) a whole bunch of things from the last ten issues or so.
   • Fleetway G2 does not add any references to Marvel UK. It merely doesn't mention G.I. Joe quite so much.

Thus, with at least two follow-ons which reject Marvel UK and none that pick up on it, it would be simpler all round and at least as accurate (I think more so) to regard anything which picks up from US #80 as not including backstory from the UK issues and edit this page, Earth-120185, Earthforce and {{Earthforcefiction{{#if:||{{{2}}}|}}}} accordingly. You seem to be primarily arguing that Earthforce doesn't fit Marvel US, which no-one's arguing. Why can't this be the correct state of affairs. - SanityOrMadness 14:42, 10 April 2013 (EDT)

Does this help?

• 
  Walky's old chart
• 
  Chart I just put together

Thing is, without the UK reprints of US#67-69, we get no explanation for where Galvatron came from. Otherwise, we're forced to assume and/or make up things that weren't in the comics in order for Earthforce to work. He would have had to have come from somewhere what with Marvel UK'streatment of Galvatrons as either having traveled back in time from the future (as Galvatron I had done, who got destroyed in "Time Wars") or as having never left the future (as "Aspects of Evil" Galvatron had done). Earthforce Galvatron, however, is just therr with no explanation, with Simon Furman's word of him being the Galvatron II being our only "official" clue as to his origin, thus necessitating US#67-69 to have occurred for him to have appeared in Earthforce. Otherwise, his arrival is a nonsensical blank slate that, without an answer, contradicts the very nature of Galvatron in Marvel UK. --Sabrblade 19:14, 10 April 2013 (EDT)

I'm increasingly confused as to what you're trying to argue, because you're contradicting yourself - you're saying both that #67-69 are essential and impossible simultaneously (I lean strongly to the latter). If you're utterly determined, you can count RoD as being identical to the timeline UK Galvatron II was plucked from, but then still have to "assume" his arrival went differently, since it must have - for the same reason that Megatron can't possibly have ended up merged with Ratchet in unspace before being revived with nucleon, only still permanently linked with Ratchet. Because we have evidence to the contrary, and the established fact that Earthforce does not follow the US build to Unicron's arrival at Cybertron.

Fact is, we ultimately don't need to assert anything. He's Galvatron II because he's the second Galvatron (after the old comic convention of disambiguating multiple characters with the same codename with Roman numerals, taken from monarchial conventions), which is why Furman dubbed him so. No page actually asserts where he came from, except as a note. And this whole bit is a great whopping tangent from the original question I asked! - SanityOrMadness 20:43, 10 April 2013 (EDT)

Sorry, I meant that 67-69 are essential for Galvatron II's appearance to make sense (since after he agrees to play Unicron's game [with his rules], he would instead go to the Ark instead of Cybertron), but impossible for Megatron to not be merged to Ratchet and for the Ark to be abandoned. Without 67-69, Galvatron II has no explanation for his being there at all, since Galvatrons of any kind simply don't exist in the present day era of Marvel UK and because Furman explicitly identified him as "the alternate-reality Galvatron from US #67,". Without an explanation, we're left to assume/make up things that the comic doesn't touch upon, which steps out of canon and into fanon. So, we need 67-69 for Galvatron's sake. However, including 67-69 also creates contradictions for other things like Megatron and the empty Ark. Without 67-69, these other contradictions can be better fixed, but then it leaves Galvatron unexplained and in conflict with both how Marvel UK treated Galvatron and with his being called the guy from US#67. It's simply a lose-lose situation trying to make Earthforce fit in any manner (be it with the US timeline or overriding it like your suggesting) without making leaps of logic or reaching assumptions that go against canon. --Sabrblade 22:43, 10 April 2013 (EDT)

Hey, nice illustration. If you would allow me to nitpick, since "Earth-91274" is the Marvel-centric designation for that universe it also includes the G.I. Joe comic, which includes the G2 crossover issues (138–142), which technically probably drags in the G2 Transformers issues into "Earth-91274." <tongue only partially in cheek>You can't just skip issue 43! Maybe it was a future that was overwritten somehow like the original UK future timeline, but the issue was presented as having really happened.</tongue only partially in cheek> - Starfield 22:48, 10 April 2013 (EDT)

The end of the UK Marvel comic (Earthforce) can't overwrite the end of the UK Marvel comic (US reprints). The US reprints are a part of the UK comic continuity, and always have been, and no amount of extra timeline splinters we've gotten since then can overrule that. Earthforce is a sidestory that contradicts other material published in the very same book, no more, no less. --ItsWalky 01:18, 11 April 2013 (EDT)

Okay, why am I being offered yet another explanation of what Earthforce is? I KNOW WHAT EARTHFORCE IS! Nor at any point did I suggest anything "overwrote" anything else or anything of the sort. (This is also why I avoided saying "Marvel US continuity", since that's also "Marvel UK continuity A")

Okay, one more analogy, using trains for the metaphor. This is what I'm suggesting:

1. Short route, heading to stop number 332, avoiding a group of stations including "Target 2006", "Two Megatrons" and "Time Wars". Change at 332 for stations including "Another Time & Place" and "Regeneration One".
2. Long route, calling all stations including the aforementioned "Target 2006", "Two Megatrons" and "Time Wars" until "Matrix Quest" (or thereabouts), thereafter turning left toward stop 289 instead. No further stops on the main line (i.e., no continuations).

Basically, I'm suggesting that Marvel UK published two basic continuities, one of which includes ALL the present-day Marvel UK original material, from "Man of Iron" to "Target 2006" to "Time Wars" to UK "End of the Road" as well as all the reprinted US material not irreconcilable with it (i.e., not the things contradicted by such matters as Skids' being stuck in Limbo for years, the fate of the Nemesis, Bumblebee's rebuilding as Goldbug and, yes, that damned Earthforce). The other includes only the reprinted material. Right now, we don't have a coherent treatment. I'm suggesting this is a damn sight more coherent than the way pages like "Wolf in the Fold!" are treated right now. - SanityOrMadness 03:17, 11 April 2013 (EDT)

I am really not following this argument at all, save to say that I don't understand why hoops are being jumped through to present UK annual story "Another Time and Place" and the UK version of G2 as splinters from the US continuity, and not the UK one. - Chris McFeely 05:00, 11 April 2013 (EDT)

Because he's trying to show us how Earthforce can (and in his opinion, ought to be) the "true" path for the UK comic timeline to take instead of the path of the reprinted US comics that Earthforce contradicts, which I'm trying to say is an unfeasible task. --Sabrblade 15:16, 11 April 2013 (EDT)

Sanity seems to be after a "coherent treatment," which is impossible without making stuff up. Earthforce is a continuity clusterfuck. Anything else is a lie. --ItsWalky 16:02, 11 April 2013 (EDT)

Also, the fate of this page rests in the hands of this discussion. Until a final "yes" or "no" to Sanity's suggestion is decided, I"m going to edit that page to better reflect the current "no" status that the Wiki has defaulted to 'til now. Should a "yes" be decided on, I'll switch some of the edits back to closer resemble how Sanity had that page set up before. --Sabrblade 16:32, 11 April 2013 (EDT)

*sigh*. Well, I tried. At least there's some (limited) recognition of what I intended now... - SanityOrMadness 23:17, 12 April 2013 (EDT)

Toys

Would the Galvatron II toys belong here, the ones that explicitly identify being Galvatron II, and thus the Rhythms version? —MissDaria (talk) 21:35, 18 April 2025 (EDT)

They... are. --Sabrblade (talk) 00:04, 19 April 2025 (EDT)