Talk:Reaching the Omega Point

Speculation

The, uh, time travel section here is completely speculation. It's... it's a nice theory, but I don't think it belongs here, especially so prominently. --ItsWalky 17:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I was just about to say the same thing. I am very uncomfortable with all this conjecture. --Crockalley 17:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I understood your most of your edits, Walky, but I think Interrobang's hack-and-slash has seriously gone too far. 'Omega Point' is one of the most convoluted and hard-to-read stories in TF fiction, and if I weren't familiar with it, I would certainly appreciate some analysis in an article about it. If what I wrote was factually wrong or excessively hypothetical, then fine (and I'll grant the latter on a few things in there). But most of what Interrobang cut was either connecting the dots of the basic story logic or flat-out recapping. I'm tempted to just paste it back in and say, "No, it's NOT that speculative," but that doesn't get us anywhere. So where's the line? What counts as "speculation," and ultimately who's the judge? And, since it seems to be a cardinal sin around here, why isn't there a policy laid down anywhere? Or have I missed it? - Jackpot 21:31, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

"If Derik speculates, it's bad." Generally. Speculation is a much bigger sin to CrockAlley here, who likes to delete anything I write with "possibly" in it. But seriously, if something is a major point of contention in the fandom, we should lay it out. Derik's original write-up went too far, IMO, creating a doublecrossing motive for Unicron that really did not exist in the original treatment. Ascribing motives to characters which were not implied is something I want to avoid. --ItsWalky 22:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Um, you're probably talking about MY write-up, not Derik's. I don't think Derik actually wrote that much of this article. And, yeah, the Uni-motivation thing was one of the elements I was willing to give way on for being excessively hypothetical. But look at what's been deleted since your edits a couple of weeks ago. I don't understand why, say, the round-up of where the various characters stand post-Omega-Point is too speculative to exist in this Wiki. Sure, a lot of it isn't explicitly stated in the story, but that's kind of the point. The story is confusingly written and barely wraps itself up. I see it as a service to the reader to untangle the web and go, "Logically, here's who still exists, who doesn't, and where they probably are. And how it does and doesn't still intermesh with the Beast Wars." If I've gotten things WRONG, okay, sure, let's change it. But I think what I wrote was sound enough to fly.

Again: who decides this? What's our standard on this Wiki? - Jackpot 22:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there can be a catch-all standard for how much speculation is too much speculation. The deliberative threshold varies with the style of each story. The case-by-case judgment I think is the best model we have.

I've just read through the history of revisions since I removed the Unicron Motive, and some of them I agree with. I agree that Critical Mass doesn't belong on this page, especially since its inclusion is only to support the speculation below that its exclusive characters no longer exist, a supposition that Primeval Dawn and Wreckers tells us is not true. I would feel better about the points made being included if they were bulleted under a subheading and each summed up in around 100 words or less, rather than devoting 50% of the article to it. --ItsWalky 22:44, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

*goes back to read the deleted section* Yeah, that's not me.

The core idea of that notes section is good, but it could be accomplished in a single paragraph. Whoever wrote it (for instance) missed that Apelinq mentioned that Windrazor vanished on their trip back to Cybertron, strongly supporting the 'the entire timeline negated' argument, which IMO, means you can just list off without needing to justify everything. (Of course, you coudl also argue that many of these 'would no longer exists' actually belong in the individual character pages, and this one just needs to dsay 'elements unique ot Shokaracts' future no longer exist(d).')

I've got to say, that speculation comment hurts. It's not untrue, but I'm trying to be better about a) keeping it in check b) marking it as such c) being proven right in the end by new published materials. -Derik 22:47, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Windrazor doesn't vanish. Windrazor's current location was one of the things Glen said he'd eventually get around to explaining. Of course, he didn't, and we're screwed. --ItsWalky 22:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hh. You're right. I could have SWORN I wrote a note that I found one explicit reference to Windrazor vanishing during Apelinq's return when I was researching Omega Point... but I cant' find my notes. Oh well, my bad. -Derik 02:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I still don't see the "complexity" of this story. Evil Unicron guy comes to the time of the Beast Wars. Bunch of guys gang up on him. (Teamwork!) Guy gets erased from the timeline. The end. That hardly requires analysis.

Omega Point uses some fairly complicated Time Travel 'physics,' (as does BW as a series.)

The real confusing point is- the storyline was rewritten so many times the actual thread became a bit yiffy. What caused the time-shift again? Apelinq arrivign in the past, with hsi maximal artifact from the present that Antagony called a predacon artifact from the future that actually is the key to curing Megatron's mode-lock virus... and thus not related to Shokaract's timeline at all?

Omega Point is confusing because it has elements occurring in 3 different time periods. The Beast Wars 100k+ years ago, the 'present' on Cybertron, and the 32nd century future. -Derik 02:28, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

My main issue with it was how it was effectively an essay. I don't consider that appropriate in an "encyclopedia", especially as how it used sentences like "Let's examine the time-travel elements first." Other issue was that it was nothing more than a theory, all from one guy with no official basis; I don't desire for this site to become a soapbox for such theories and essays. I'd prefer if this site just stuck with what the canon states, and let the reader come to their own conclusions. Pushing only one theory prevents that from happening, as it makes that sole theory appear to have more basis when it actually doesn't and forces the reader to agree with it. After all, if it's in the article over all other viewpoints, it must be right. Interrobang 00:47, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Individual articles

I'd like to create four individual articles from this one
1. Visitations
2. Apelinq's War Journals
3. Herald, Covenant, Schism, Paradox
4. Terminus.
Any Objection to this? Just copy-and-paste for right now, with expansion (trivia, credits, etc) to come. Another question: how were Apelinq's War Journals and Herald, Covenant, Schism, and Paradox originally made available? Thanks! --Crockalley 02:46, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

AWJ was available online, originally at botconbeyond.com, IIRC. Some of the text stories came in the mail along with registration materials. I don't recall specifics. --ItsWalky 02:51, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Still "in effect"? Is this the most confusing slag ever?

Please help me try to work through this.

Am I right in thinking that there's a single storyline that starts at "Visitations" and ends up being Classics?

Thanks to Apelinq's memory, Omega Point was still "real" after a fashion. He then went through the Wreckers/Universe storylines and got turned into Sentinel Maximus, who shipped off Skyfall into the Classicsverse.

Is the above basically correct?

If so, I guess there are really two follow-ups:

1). So that one meta-story fought Unicron HOW MANY times? Shokaract, dead tummy-wars in Universe, Li'l Tank, and...?

2). How many times have they explicitly jumped into alternate dimensions? Classics happens instead of G2, so is it supposed to be in effect for Beast and/or Wreckers continuity? I guess my question is, if Classics Optimus Prime knew EVERYTHING that had happened that led up to Skyfall being at his side, how many times would characters from Prime's future have travelled back in time to shmooze with him? --Thylacine 2000 14:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not clear which part you're talking about, is it on the sub-articles?

But you are correct that Apelinq first appeared in the Botcon 98 script ('offscreen' recovering the McGuffin) was central to Omega Point and fought Shokaract, got involved in Wreckers, merged with Primal Prime into Sentinel Maximus, was transported to Cybertron continuity (along with RiD Optimus Prime, this was RiD oppy's 2nd stop, he'd been shanghi'd to Universe earlier...) where he met Skyfall and whatsisface... who were later transported to Classics. There is actually a continuious story chain here.

Meanwhile, it looks like Shokaract is showing up in Aescending-- possibly a Shokaract since their BW is set 70,000 years ago vs. 180,000 years ago in 3h's timeline... but Nemesis Prime seems to be creeping into the IDW G1 stuff, so who knows anymore?

-Derik 16:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you've basically got it right, Thy. Apelinq is indeed a bridge between all those universe, and there were three separate encounters with Unicron. As for the dimension-hopping... well, everything that happens in the Beast era seems to be mere time-travel. It's time-travel with the twist of there being a rogue future where Shokaract gets to be King of the Galaxy, but the actual event of Omega Point seems to kill it. So, while much of Reaching the Omega Point seems to erase itself, it's all still one "dimension," depending on your definition.

When Sentinel Maximus rescued some folks from Universe Unicron, it's unclear whether it was time-travel or dimension-hopping. We don't really know where or when that Unicron was, if he could be considered to be "in" any universe at all at that point.

Going to the Cybertron timeline, though, is pretty definitely a cross-dimensional trip. There's no known connection between the UT and the Beast timeline. Likewise, Skyfall's jaunt into the Classicsverse. So the question of whether Classics is supposed to pertain to Beast/3H continuity is a completely open one. There are at least two full-on, non-time-travel dimensional jumps separating Classics from Beast/3H. While it's possible that the second jump was a jump BACK, there's no evidence one way or the other.

This brings up a point I want to know other people's thoughts on: One of the problems I have with the current canon is its use of temporally "unique" characters. Unicron is the most egregious, but I think Vector Prime was identified as another one, and it seems likely that Skyfall & Pals are as well. The most evocative absurdity inherent in this is that, if timelines are continually branching from each other as various possibilities occur, then these "unique" characters would be spontaneously vanishing from universes left and right as their paths hewed to one probability out of every set. Likewise, Unicron's task would be ridiculously monumental, since it's hard enough to destroy ONE universe; having to consume an infinite or near-infinite amount of universes one-by-one is inconceivable (especially since there might be a hydra-like quality of, no matter how successful he is in any given timeline, every action he took would spawn multiple other universes where things turned out differently). And yet he apparently DID it, once.

But something that occurred to me is that maybe all these different "dimensions" that keep coming up AREN'T strictly branching timelines. That is to say, maybe the UT and RID worlds (to pick two at random) don't have a common ancestor somewhere back in history. They're truly "parallel" universes. Perhaps there are branches WITHIN those "dimensions" (the way that G1-comic Unicron reached into "possible futures" for his Galvatron, or how Shokaract's timeline stemmed from the Beast era). But on the level of "unique" characters, there's a manageable, finite number of "dimensions" which are self-contained and do not have duplicates of those specific characters.

My question to anyone still reading is: Does the canon support or contradict this idea? I'm not trying to come up with "fanon" here; I'm trying to interpret what the canon has actually said about itself. Any relevant quotes or events that people can remember, please share.

- Jackpot 16:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers, Derik and Jack. Specifically on how "ridiculously monumental" Unicron's task would be, remember that when he first did it was before the Big Bang. The universe we currently have, and any "alternates," are still expanding as a result of that, making Uni's life harder; but perhaps in the pre-universe that he ate, there had not been a Big Bang at its inception or it had run out of momentum.

I also think I've had enough of "every single random action creates a new universe--whose inhabitants will then get together and fight." When alternate continuities are so thoroughly and repeatedly intertwined, how is it different from having them be the same continuity? The various universes become just larger versions of Speed Planet and Beast Planet, suddenly growing aware of one another and irrevocably being part of the same story. It's the sort of shit DC was wise enough to clean up in the early '80s.

Within that context, though, I can understand how some characters would be cross-dimensional and at the same time immune from the effects of history-erasure, because that was how Primus made them. Vector Prime is specifically supposed to make sure that causes cause effects, and not the other way around, that history flows forwards instead of in reverse, etc.; with that kind of power, immunizing himself from getting butterfly-stomp-changed seems to make sense.

Problems come up when we come to folks like Alpha Trion, who is supposed to be "just" a machine, no divine origin or inexplicable powers, differentiated from other Transformers solely because he's older and wiser; there's really no justification for now projecting him into four other continuities. --Thylacine 2000 17:57, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Canon-wise, the only "every action creates a new universe" evidence I can think of is really Unicron's musings in the G1 comic as he searched for a herald. And even that just acknowledged the idea of "possible futures" - it didn't specify how those futures were created, or how often. Which is why I'm thinking out loud about this here... Given all the pieces we've got - continuities that don't split linearly, but rather just share bits here and there; temporally unique characters; time-travel with both timestorms and apparent predestination - what's the bigger picture, if any? When Forrest Lee writes about "dimensions," what does he MEAN?

As for Alpha Trion, being merged with Vector Sigma gives him all sorts of divine license. And even that aside, I don't necessarily see his "projections" as having one source. Just like every universe has its Optimus Prime, a bunch of universes can have Alpha Trions. (His Cybertron appearance seemed particularly mundane.) It's a LACK of that kind of duplication that makes a character like Vector Prime or Unicron special.

- Jackpot 18:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

When Forrest Lee writes about 'dimensions' he means the multiverse as established in the Armada comics. Millions+ (possibly an infinity) of discrete universes that have, near as anyone can tell, always been discrete.

Except when he writes 'Balancing Act' apparently. There he means "oh, it's the Dreamwave comic'verse and the animated universe at the same time despite giving no indication of this in the story, or any justification why the explicitly defined multiverse is suddenly functioning counter to the way it's supposed to-- isn't that awesome and badass? Now excuse me while I menstruate on you."

(I'm paraphrasing) -Derik 19:17, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, as MacGuffins go it's not too farfetched to invoke the Unicron Singularity and the fact that Primus is the same being no matter what universe he's in.--Rosicrucian 20:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It wouldn't be, no! And I'd accept that! But the story doesnt' do that. Or do anything at all to indicate that it's supposed to take place in more than one continuity. But apparently that's what it's doing, 'cuz he says so. -Derik 21:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This isn't the first time I've seen someone say, "Forest Lee said such-and-such..." Where is he saying this stuff? How do people know? - Jackpot 22:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No clue. But people yelled this at me when I made the obvious statement that Balancing Act took place in DW comic continuity, so presumably somewhere. -Derik 22:08, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Likewise, back in this discussion, when I said the story seemed to be declaring something different than the interpretation put forth on the Wiki, the response I got was, "Forest said it." I'd like to see what Forest said, myself. - Jackpot 22:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Omega Point

Currently, "Omega Point" redirects here. Could there be a separate page for that, as from what I can tell it seems to be an actual event... Kaje 15:27, 8 November 2009 (EST)

Take it that's a no then... Kaje 01:05, 2 July 2010 (EDT)