Talk:Ulchtar

Which continuity would Aurex 602.0 Kappa be? Closest match I could find was Aurex 603.0 Kappa, the Energon Within online game. --Detour 15:30, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

Typo, sorry! —Interrobang 15:36, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

Ah. Given the stream is still a redlink, I wonder if it's worth pointing out his "continuity" of origin in the Notes. --Detour 15:42, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

Nevermind... --Detour 15:43, 10 August 2011 (EDT)

Origin

Looking at the Energon Within page, I'd say Ulchtar here appears to be one of the generic jets, thus his distinct resemblance to Armada Starscream despite appearing in an Armada continuity.Pirateblue (talk) 09:51, 8 June 2014 (EDT)

Merge?

Based on Spacewarp's description, it sounds like Ulchtar basically is Armada Starscream, just with a different name. Should we merge? --Giggidy (talk) 16:17, 28 November 2015 (EST)

I say leave it as is due to the fact that he's known under a different name and his involvement with the Combatibots --Crossblades (talk) 16:29, 28 November 2015 (EST)

Yeah, he's pretty clearly a counterpart to Starscream. I say merge. Also, I don't remember that picture showing up in the Almanac - it doesn't seem to be in my Complete Almanac, at any rate. It should probably be deleted if it isn't in there. --Riptide (talk) 17:25, 28 November 2015 (EST)

This is almost certainly the case. As for the picture itself, it comes from the Alt2day website, so it's not canon. Escargon (talk) 20:32, 28 November 2015 (EST)

So then it's not a valid picture? The picture's page says it comes from the DeviantArt page of Bill Forster, one of the Almanac's authors. And we use authors' online pictures for characters such as Proxima, Roadmaster, and the DJD. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 20:51, 28 November 2015 (EST)

I've always been a little wary of using model sheets, etc since they aren't officially published material, but it's probably fine since they're official designs. This, though, is basically fan art; it hasn't been used in anything official. --Riptide (talk) 08:12, 29 November 2015 (EST)

47 has a good point about the eligibility of the picture. --Giggidy (talk) 21:48, 28 November 2015 (EST)

I think the difference here is that those designs are used in official comics. (Not really arguing one way or the other; I really don't care about the image or the fate this article.) Saix (talk) 21:50, 28 November 2015 (EST)

you guys why --ItsWalky (talk) 01:55, 29 November 2015 (EST)

I don't understand the suggestion. Should we merge this page with what? UT Starscream's page? When this isn't a UT character? Animated Starscream, when he's a different guy? Am I missing something? --KilMichaelMcC (talk) 02:05, 29 November 2015 (EST)

Ulchtar is explicitly from Aurex. What they're proposing is merging this with UT Starscream. Saix (talk) 03:31, 29 November 2015 (EST)

Okay, that's what I missed then. I thought a character from the Almanac with an Animated-style picture was supposed to be from Animated, that he was the Animated version of Armada Starscream, with a different name to distinguish him from the main Animated Screamer. Anyway. Merge? No. Why. Pointless. --KilMichaelMcC (talk) 22:04, 29 November 2015 (EST)

I wouldn't say I'm proposing it. It was just clear to me that Ulchtar is being used as a variant name for Starscream, sort of like Jazz/Meister, or Bluestreak/Silverstreak. I was attempting to grapple with the implications of that. --Giggidy (talk) 09:24, 29 November 2015 (EST)

I change my mind. While I acknowledge that Ulchtars are basically UT Starscreams with a different name, I think his name is cool enough to keep at his own page. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 22:19, 29 November 2015 (EST)

Ulchtar comes from the Energon Within online game continuity. Starscream appears in the flash comic strip introduction and epilogue to Energon Within. Ergo, Ulchtar is not Starscream. Theoretically, Ulchtar is probably one of the endless waves of Starscream-colored generics attacking the energon mine for the Decepticons, until he got wise to the suicide mission and hopped realities, as one does. --Xaaron (talk) 07:33, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Well, no. Someone who looks just like Starscream and Ulchtar appears in the game, but is never identified by name. [1] --Giggidy (talk) 08:14, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Megatron, Hot Shot, and Optimus Prime are all identified by name, so it's not a reality where recognizable characters are given different names en masse. If you wish to be obnoxiously technical about this, the Seeker-type who appears in Energon Within looks like Armada Starscream. Officially, technically, we have no idea what Ulchtar looks like, since he has never received a canonically approved visual representation. Ergo, there is no canonical evidence the Seeker is anyone other than who he appears to be, Starscream, and there certainly wasn't any author intent at the time of the game's creation to indicate he was supposed to be Ulchtar. Unofficially, if we were to recognize the unapproved DeviantArt image of Ulchtar as an accurate representation of said character then still, technically, he does not look like the character from Energon Within -- he looks like a modified version of Animated Starscream, not identical to Armada Starscream like the Energon Within Seeker. In Transformers in general and with Seekers in particular, a different name and slightly different colors/body-type is enough to make a separate character. A Rose by any other name is still a Rose; A Seeker by any other name is a different Seeker. Furthermore, precedent exists for nigh-identical characters to exist in the same reality, differentiated only by foreign or preliminary names, such as Ego or Morsa. This is further relevant for the Energon Within micro-continuity, which explicitly contains literally countless Decepticons of similar body-type to Starscream, per the game's mechanics.

Now. Stop. Talking. --Xaaron (talk) 09:08, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Actually, Vector Prime describes Ulchtar as a "Starscream analog". That's at least some evidence that they might well look alike. And there's nothing really different about the Forster design that can't be chalked up to style.

Now. Stop. Talking. --Giggidy (talk) 09:26, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Exactly -- "Some" evidence that they "might" look alike. Your own phrasing of your own argument is vague and non-committal. You're not even 100% convinced of this idea, yet you're wasting the time and energy of multiple contributors with this absolutely pointless discussion.

Before you say anything more, please, please, please stop to ask two questions first. One, would moving Ulchtar to Starscream (Armada) benefit anyone on the Wiki, from the casual visitor to the dedicated contributor? Second, does having Ulchtar and Starscream (Armada) on separate pages hurt the comprehension or enjoyment of the Wiki by anyone? If the answer to either of those questions is "Yes", tell me how and I will listen. If the answer to both questions is "No", however, then what are we even doing here?!?!

I like Ask Vector Prime. I enjoy naming the nameless, identifying the unidentified, and formalizing connections that were in most people's head-canon already anyway. But it's all in the name of streamlining information and making it easier to understand, or access. What you're doing is trying to move things just for the sake of moving them.

Be helpful; don't just be busy. --Xaaron (talk) 10:37, 30 November 2015 (EST)

OK, very well said. Specifically, the two enumerated questions you pose. I agree that it's probably best to keep them separate. I'm also convinced, based on the Almanac, Ask Vector Prime, and Spacewarp's Log, that the character that showed up in Energon Within was retconned to be "Ulchtar", a guy who looks exactly like Starscream and shares his history, not unlike the distinction (or lack thereof) between Convoy/Optimus Prime or Octane/Tankor. But, based on the arguments you've outlined, I think that it's still worth keeping them apart, one of those cases where we make an exception due to readability rather than blindly follow our own self-imposed rules. The main reason I argued with you that last time was that you tweaked me the wrong way with your rudeness. --Giggidy (talk) 11:10, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Acknowledging and apologizing. --Xaaron (talk) 11:34, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Accepted and forgotten. I overreacted. You really did make a very well structured and convincing argument that last post. --Giggidy (talk) 11:46, 30 November 2015 (EST)

wow, how the hell did this of all pages become a massive argument --Riptide (talk) 09:49, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Excuse me while I add more fuel to the fire, but since Ulchtar is based on UT Starscream, does he count as a repurpose? Crossblades (talk 13:39, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Toys

Could someone explain to me why its a problem for me to add a link here that leads directly to UT Starscream toys section, especially when Ulchtar is clearly based on UT Starscream? Crossblades (talk) 20:41, 29 November 2015 (EST)

HEY GUESS WHAT YOU CAN ALSO REACH THAT INFORMATION THROUGH THE "ULCHTAR IS BASED ON UT STARSCREAM" LINK IN THE NOTES --ItsWalky (talk) 21:32, 29 November 2015 (EST)

seriously all of you are going to make me LOSE MY MIND --ItsWalky (talk) 21:32, 29 November 2015 (EST)

Art

Since we apparently are comfortable acknowledging that the character in Energon Within is probably Ulchtar, then why are we removing the artwork? I'd vote to put it back. --Giggidy (talk) 15:57, 30 November 2015 (EST)

"food store"? --Sabrblade (talk) 16:05, 30 November 2015 (EST)

EVERYONE HERE READ THIS!!!

Everything that has been said about Ulchtar in both the Almanac and Spacewarp's Log are just meant to be harmless bits of fanwank and nothing more than that. Ulchtar is fanwank for fanwank's sake.

The sooner everyone starts to accept that such things like Ulchtar are meant to be nothing more than what they are, instead of wanting them to be part of something greater that transcends their purely fanwankal nature, the fewer problems we'll have around here.

Sometimes a joke is just a joke. Sometimes a homage is just a homage. Sometimes a bit of nerdy fanservice is just. Nerdy. Fanservice. The more everyone comes to accept this and not look for anything deeper that isn't there (and the Almanac write-up for Ulchtar is already plenty nerdily deep as it is), or try to tie it all in with something bigger that it doesn't need to be tied into, the happier we'll all be.

Seriously, guys. This really didn't need to go as far as it did. --Sabrblade (talk) 16:23, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Okay, I get what you're saying, but. What exactly are you saying this means we should do? Why are we meant to ignore the fact that pretty much every source on Ulchtar we have is saying "hey he's a renamed Armada Starscream" because "it's fanwank"? I guess for whatever reason "ignore it" is the consensus, but I don't really get why we need to as a matter of principle because it's a fancruft thing. --Riptide (talk) 17:14, 30 November 2015 (EST)

(Incidentally, I don't particularly care with regards to the merge either way any more, I just want this damn pointless clusterfuck of a page out of sight and out of mind - but I have to say that shuffling it into Armadascream's page would remove a lot of the back-and-forth over how this information should be organised and structured and what it should have on it.) --Riptide (talk) 17:18, 30 November 2015 (EST)

I've come around to the no-merge POV, and I agree that it's a fanwank joke, but I still don't see why that means we shouldn't use the picture of Starscream/Ulchtar from The Energon Within as his main image. --Giggidy (talk) 17:24, 30 November 2015 (EST)

The problem comes from even thinking that he's "a renamed Armada Starscream". It's a JOKE! Nothing more! The original write-up was a parody of "Starscream's Brigade" using the names of unreleased toys. Who really CARES that his home dimension was an Aurex one, let alone the Energon Within game? It's not important. It was just a little harmless fun printed as an Easter egg in a book meant for Animated fans. And the Spacewarp's Log was just playing along with him being a Starscream knockoff. Neither was retconning anything about the Energon Within game or the Starscream within it as neither the Almanac write-up nor the Spacewarp Log is meant to be taken so seriously. So please, just leave well enough alone. --Sabrblade (talk) 17:35, 30 November 2015 (EST)

I mean... yeah, it's a joke, but in the case of Spacewarp's Log the joke is "starscream oh you mean ulchtar right". I just don't get the idea behind looking at this character - and he is a character, as much as any other minor-source character is, even if he's also a "joke" - who has been stated to 1) have Armada Starscream's history, 2) be a version of Starscream, and 3) exist in a universe where there is no Starscream and say "oh but we should ignore this because he originated in a jokey bit of fancruft so we shouldn't take it seriously". How is saying "yes, he's a joke written to be a version of starscream" any more Taking It Seriously than "he's a joke who is the same as starscream but gets his own page"? I just don't really understand. --Riptide (talk) 18:54, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Whaddya mean "a universe where there is no Starscream"? He's RIGHT THERE in the game's intro! So what if his name isn't spoken? We KNOW who it's supposed to be! To feign ignorance of that for the sake of making Ulchtar anything more than what he's meant to be (a Starscream gag) is ludicrous. --Sabrblade (talk) 19:08, 30 November 2015 (EST)

But that's... the entire point of the Spacewarp's Log entry...? The implication is pretty clear that she doesn't know any "Starscream" from her own universe, and that his role is filled by Ulchtar. I just... don't get it! He began as a meaningless namedrop, but I'm not sure how anything other than "Ulchtar is another name for certain versions of UT Starscream" can be derived from subsequent material, especially when the only counterargument you're giving is It's Jokes. --Riptide (talk) 19:19, 30 November 2015 (EST)

From Jim:

Ulchtar was ALWAYS an alternate name for Starscream, and I've been consistently writing him that way since I invented him.

So. Yeah.

EDIT: ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

I dunno... like, however many years ago when I was doing AAII I thought it'd be funny if there was a universe where Starscream was named Ulchtar. I picked up on the fact that Starscream's name was never used in Energon Within so I had a little fun. Does that bother people? And since Spacewarp is also from a Unicron Trilogy flash game, I thought maybe it's a common thing in Kappa cluster Aurex universes.Escargon (talk) 19:15, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Thanks, Escargon. I dunno, this may be author intent, but so is IT'S MEANT TO BE A JOKE DON'T PUT ANY THOUGHT INTO IT, right? --Riptide (talk) 19:21, 30 November 2015 (EST)

OK, then it's clear that he IS supposed to be a retconned version of Energon Within Starscream, so the picture should definitely come back. I still think for the reasons Xaaron outlined we should keep him as his own page.--Giggidy (talk) 19:28, 30 November 2015 (EST)

Wow, the only way they could make this page any more controversial is if they introduced a character named "Talk:Ulchtar"... --flicky1991 01:53, 1 December 2015 (EST)

One year later.

Yeah, so I already brought this up at the Allspark, and yes, I'm bringing it up here now too. Armada Starscream is Ulchtar. Ulchtar is Armada Starscream. That was always Jim Sorenson's intent, and it's made blindingly obvious; characters having different names is nothing new to the franchise, and, truthfully, has increased, partially due to trademarks, but also in fiction as well. To leave these two seperated is, in of itself, fundamentally dishonest. To bring up a similar example: Jetstream and Whirl. While not EXPLICITLY said, the intention is obvious; they are the same character. And if they can be merged without Roberts saying a word, then Ulchtar should be on Starscream's page. Escargon (talk) 21:02, 25 April 2017 (EDT)

Redirect status

Skybound continuity has finally introduced "Ulchtar" for a neo-Generation 1 incarnation of Starscream. Given that neither use of "Ulchtar" on this wiki is that of a primary character name, should this "Ulchtar" redirect continue pointing at the UT Starscream page or be reassigned to the G1 Starscream page? They're both minor trivia points, but I'm not quite sure how to adequately convey the level of information. Making up "Ulchtar (G1)" and "Ulchtar (Armada)" redirects seems silly. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 22:50, 9 October 2024 (EDT)

I would almost say it makes more sense to point it to Starscream (disambiguation), both because it’s never been used in a non-Starscream context, and to futureproof it should any other Starscreams adopt the name. — Cyberlink420 (talk) 23:00, 9 October 2024 (EDT)

Maybe Change to Ulchtar (disambiguation) with similar style formatting as Orion Pax (disambiguation)?Poliwag06 (talk) 01:43, 10 October 2024 (EDT)

We'd need a third Ulchtar for a disambiguation.--CyclonustheWarrior (talk) 07:30, 10 October 2024 (EDT)