Talk:Underbite
Talk:Underbite (Kre-O)
[edit]Okay, this has kinda been bugging me for a while, mostly since the AOE stuff. But... at what point are we letting pedantry get in the way of not obfuscating information? I mean... Kre-O Underbite is blatantly, aggressively, RID Underbite. Pretty much all the AOE Kre-O stuff is not part of some ambiguous Kre-O fiction... they're goddamn Kre-O incarnations of very specific iterations of TF characters.
I'm all for keeping the more jumbled and ambiguous-gen-design stuff -particularly the stuff backed with Kre-O-specific fiction- in separate (Kre-O) disambigs. But the AOE Construct-Bots, the RID Hero Mashers, the AOE/RID Kre-O? Splitting those feels like going too far. --M Sipher (talk) 18:37, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- Totally agreed. - Chris McFeely (talk) 18:43, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- I don't know much about lines like Kre-O, but watching them - and their dozens of essentially repeat characters - proliferate over the last couple of years has been kind of headache-inducing. I'm all for any reasonable change that reduces the size of our typical character disambiguation page. -- Repowers (talk) 19:29, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- Well, I mean... the RID Hero Mashers. They are 100% based on the RID character designs, and for all intents and purposes, are just a different toy of those characters, no more or less than a Tiny Titan or a Legion or a Happy Meal toy. So why in the fuck should Hero Masher Clampdown be split off onto some separate page, exactly? Should ANY of the Hero Mashers be split off, in all honesty? Like, Bumblebee is really the only one who's demi-sorta ambiguously designed, but G1 Bee's been getting more movie-ish for a while now. --M Sipher (talk) 19:36, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- Geez, I didn't even realize we'd split the Hero Mashers. But I advocated not doing this even back for Bot Shots, so I'm entirely behind condensing these Kre-O and CB and whatever into the other articles. - Chris McFeely (talk) 20:00, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- Bot Shots has been in the back of my mind as well, but between it being a dead line and a hair more ambiguous in design (at least for some characters), I was willing to let that sit for a bit while the more aggressively obvious cases get hashed out. --M Sipher (talk) 20:06, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- If ain't nobody gonna give me a credible reason not to, tomorrow I'm going to at least merge the Hero Mashers into the obvious character pages. Heatwave can go in SG's with a note about the oddities; I'd rather have a one-in-a-hundred sample be odd than the other 99 be convoluted and stupid solely to accommodate the outlier. --M Sipher (talk) 23:06, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- I had always interpreted the thought bubbles on the back of the packaging as a form of fiction that shows the characters actually being made of interchangeable parts in just the same way that Kre-Os are actually made of building bricks. For that reason I can't see either of them (HM or Kre-Os) being folded in to other pages. --Khajidha (talk) 09:25, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- Geez, I didn't even realize we'd split the Hero Mashers. But I advocated not doing this even back for Bot Shots, so I'm entirely behind condensing these Kre-O and CB and whatever into the other articles. - Chris McFeely (talk) 20:00, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- Well, I mean... the RID Hero Mashers. They are 100% based on the RID character designs, and for all intents and purposes, are just a different toy of those characters, no more or less than a Tiny Titan or a Legion or a Happy Meal toy. So why in the fuck should Hero Masher Clampdown be split off onto some separate page, exactly? Should ANY of the Hero Mashers be split off, in all honesty? Like, Bumblebee is really the only one who's demi-sorta ambiguously designed, but G1 Bee's been getting more movie-ish for a while now. --M Sipher (talk) 19:36, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- I don't know much about lines like Kre-O, but watching them - and their dozens of essentially repeat characters - proliferate over the last couple of years has been kind of headache-inducing. I'm all for any reasonable change that reduces the size of our typical character disambiguation page. -- Repowers (talk) 19:29, 29 April 2015 (EDT)
- I'd definitely agree with Hero Mashers being merged, but I'm dubious about the idea of merging the Kre-O characters since what Kre-O fiction exists is very much distinct. Would we merge all of them into the character pages of their inspirations? Just the RID ones? Just the ones that haven't appeared in any Kre-O fiction? It'd be too much of an arbitrary judgement for my liking. Riptide (talk) 02:51, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- Yeah, don't care about HM being seperate, but Kre-O - as a couple of guys have also pointed out when you brought this up on Allspark.com - is a fictional world where characters are *literally* made of bricks, and can switch continuity looks at will (the webmanga showed Bumblebee trying to decide whether to "wear" his G1 parts or TFP parts!. And one of them also showed a whole load of Optimus Primes vs a whole load of Soundwaves, including BW & MW.) That definitely shouldn't be merged just because there are toy-only guys based on later franchises. - SanityOrMadness (talk) 03:49, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- See, here you're just repeating exactly the kind of thinking that I feel has led to an unintuitive clusterfuck in the first place: prioritizing old, outdated, minor items to create some rigid always-future-true rules rather than looking at situations and figuring out which is easiest for READERS without being "wrong", for all the questionable value "right/wrong" has with this franchise and its characters. Besides, the RID Kreons appear in the RID app, so what, are we now gonna have "Strongarm (RID)", "Strongarm (Kre-O)" who is based 100% on RID Strongarm but because a dead comic is somehow dictating all future is on a separate page, and "Strongarm (RID Kreon)" which is the same thing only split into a whole new pointless page because it's not from the Kre-O "universe"? What's the gain? Doesn't this kind of pedantry make anyone else's skin crawl with how freaking convoluted it is for no seeming reason other than to jerk off over how clever we are for demarcating micro-universes and making some basic freaking information on characters harder to get? --M Sipher (talk) 15:58, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- You say "this is rigid and inflexible and creating rules for whre things go, like, doesn't feel right, man". I say "so now the Kre-O comics are fiction on both G1 Bee's page and Prime Bee's page, even though they're not the same guy. And now the first Kre-O Optimus Prime set is a toy of the Movie Optimus who comes with a Kreon of the G1 Optimus, even though they're the same character. The fact remains: to Hasbro, Bumblebee is Bumblebee is Bumblebee, and we have to enforce some kind of structure to prevent every single appearance or toy of Bumblebee being on the same page. I don't like it, at all: I really, really don't like all the little splinter "Optimus Prime (one-wave ancillary toyline)" pages, but there simply is no better way of doing it while still trying to appropriately represent what distinctions between them there are. So for things that have no fiction, or their "fiction" is a TV commercial, like C-B: great, stick 'em all on their individual mainstream characters' pages, if you can tell which one they are. But extending that to wiping out anything, including Kre-O and Bot Shots with their actual fictional settings and presentations, is no less narrow-minded than doing the opposite. -LV (talk) 16:26, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- You seem to have entirely missed that this discussion is specifically about the AOE/RID-derived stuff, not the entire Kre-O line from its very beginnings. --M Sipher (talk) 16:36, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- No, I just don't think you can separate them. Where are you going to put the Skids and Mudflap from the Kre-O comic? They stay in the mixed-Kre-O-verse even though they're just movie versions of guys? What about the multi-Optimus and multi-Bumblebee combiners? Is this only for toys with another franchise identifier on the packaging? If so, what about Beast Hunters? It's exactly as Beast Hunters as the AOE Kre-O is AOE or the RID Kre-O is RID. -LV (talk) 16:45, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- You seem to have entirely missed that this discussion is specifically about the AOE/RID-derived stuff, not the entire Kre-O line from its very beginnings. --M Sipher (talk) 16:36, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- You say "this is rigid and inflexible and creating rules for whre things go, like, doesn't feel right, man". I say "so now the Kre-O comics are fiction on both G1 Bee's page and Prime Bee's page, even though they're not the same guy. And now the first Kre-O Optimus Prime set is a toy of the Movie Optimus who comes with a Kreon of the G1 Optimus, even though they're the same character. The fact remains: to Hasbro, Bumblebee is Bumblebee is Bumblebee, and we have to enforce some kind of structure to prevent every single appearance or toy of Bumblebee being on the same page. I don't like it, at all: I really, really don't like all the little splinter "Optimus Prime (one-wave ancillary toyline)" pages, but there simply is no better way of doing it while still trying to appropriately represent what distinctions between them there are. So for things that have no fiction, or their "fiction" is a TV commercial, like C-B: great, stick 'em all on their individual mainstream characters' pages, if you can tell which one they are. But extending that to wiping out anything, including Kre-O and Bot Shots with their actual fictional settings and presentations, is no less narrow-minded than doing the opposite. -LV (talk) 16:26, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- See, here you're just repeating exactly the kind of thinking that I feel has led to an unintuitive clusterfuck in the first place: prioritizing old, outdated, minor items to create some rigid always-future-true rules rather than looking at situations and figuring out which is easiest for READERS without being "wrong", for all the questionable value "right/wrong" has with this franchise and its characters. Besides, the RID Kreons appear in the RID app, so what, are we now gonna have "Strongarm (RID)", "Strongarm (Kre-O)" who is based 100% on RID Strongarm but because a dead comic is somehow dictating all future is on a separate page, and "Strongarm (RID Kreon)" which is the same thing only split into a whole new pointless page because it's not from the Kre-O "universe"? What's the gain? Doesn't this kind of pedantry make anyone else's skin crawl with how freaking convoluted it is for no seeming reason other than to jerk off over how clever we are for demarcating micro-universes and making some basic freaking information on characters harder to get? --M Sipher (talk) 15:58, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- Yeah, don't care about HM being seperate, but Kre-O - as a couple of guys have also pointed out when you brought this up on Allspark.com - is a fictional world where characters are *literally* made of bricks, and can switch continuity looks at will (the webmanga showed Bumblebee trying to decide whether to "wear" his G1 parts or TFP parts!. And one of them also showed a whole load of Optimus Primes vs a whole load of Soundwaves, including BW & MW.) That definitely shouldn't be merged just because there are toy-only guys based on later franchises. - SanityOrMadness (talk) 03:49, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
And on a related note... while I'm not gonna advocate merging the mixed-bag-year Kreons and whatnot, I do feel that when you have Kreons or Bot Shots or such blatantly, obviously designed to "be" a specific iteration of a character, like say Micro Changer Arcee, we do a disservice by not making that information readily available on the source character's page in an obvious spot. Not shoved into the "Notes" section (which are often massive already), not just hoping maybe readers will stumble upon it via disambig. Make a "Kre-O" section in Toys or Merchandise, whichever is most appropriate, and simply have a "See Arcee (Kre-O)" that links directly to the toy in question (since in this case there's a version that's modeled deliberately after Prime Arcee as well). Where people might actually fucking find it, and maybe decide "neat I want this brick Arcee because she looks G1 and I don't care about whatever universe arglebargle this wiki's on about". --M Sipher (talk) 16:06, 30 April 2015 (EDT)
- I agree. I only recently learned Kre-o Strika existed and it's senseless for her to not appear on Strika's actual page since SHE'S STRIKA. Left as a standalone, the whole line is so obscure that they will never be found or learned about. We have "real" versions of characters from fictional universes where they turn into sneakers and teddy bears, not to mention the whole "IDW rapidly becoming the real G1" thing, and all of those characters are organized with their "real" selves. I say treat Kre-o fiction as no more disqualifying-of-reality than any of the other stuff that causes contradictions, and only create a separate page for a Kre-o character if it's absolutely not a pre-existing character.--Thylacine 2000 (talk) 08:03, 6 May 2015 (EDT)
- Yeah. Further roll out of the "See: [[Whoever (Kre-O)]]" links is definitely a good idea for now. It's already been done for a bunch of AOE characters, after all. Jalaguy (talk) 08:05, 9 May 2015 (EDT)
Kre-O pic
[edit]We've got the Kreon, but not the big guy. Does anyone have a picture of the brick-built Underbite that came in the set with the Kreon? ThatGuy79 (talk) 14:08, 14 February 2023 (EST)