Talk:Vice Grip

Even the most lecherous of Predacons under Megatron's command has respect for him.

Now, is that supposed to read like that?

lecherous (From Wiktionary) Adjective

  1. given to a lustful craving of sexually deviant activities.

--Betsumei 13:33, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

You've met Tarantulas, right? --ItsWalky 14:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

These Omega Point wntries say nothing about what the characters did in Omega Point. Also, they are not written in-universe.

Also, Packrat and Fractyl both survived Omega Point, so I'm nto clear on what you mean by 'a result of' the OP story. Are you implying the 'original' timeline of the show was rewritten by Omega Point's events, and was never put back?

Why is it so important that they be off-screen? The 3H 'version' of BW includes them, though there's some soto-voice comments from the wrtiters that the episode of the show occoured the same, with these 4 convieniently offscreen. But the IDW version of BW, which also says 'the show took place as you saw it' doesn't have them. So we have at least two diffewrent versions of BW whose 'visible' version of the universe is intended to match the screen. Are you under the illusiont hat one-or-the-other of them actually IS the same universe as the cartoon? That in the 1996 animated cartoon, we just missed Rattrap mentioning that Fractyl has gone out on patrol?

There seems to be serious problems built-in assumptions in these entries you're writing that need examining. -Derik 06:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The "Omega Point" notes I've been adding don't mention "what the characters did" because, as the notes themselves say, they didn't do anything. These entries were written with Critical Mass and Visitations as separate from OP, so I kept them that way. Also, I wrote them with a fourth-wall-breaking tone because I found that that was the clearest way to explain the convoluted concepts. I was under the impression that the style of this Wiki is loose in that regard. Am I wrong in that? As for your other points....

First: Why does the "contradiction" matter? Why can't the 3H version of BW just be different from the Mainframe version of BW? Well, it can. But I don't think that was the writers' intent, and besides, there are lots of juicy historical tidbits throughout the 3H continuity, and the farther that continuity is away from BW, the sadly less relevant those tidbits seem. So by finding a way to concretely explain away the extra characters, I provide the reader with a rationale to accept the 3H storyline as a genuine, in-continuity addition to BW-as-we-know-it. However, note that I couch my OP paragraph in lots of "if"s and "maybe"s. I'm not saying the extra characters HAVE to be explained away; I'm just saying that they CAN be. If you're comfortable believing that there's another BW-verse where Fractyl and Vice Grip and the rest frolick in the open for all three seasons, then go ahead and think that. It's just not the only option.

Second: Doesn't IDW-BW, by being mutually exclusive with the 3H stories, make the contradiction issue moot? Doesn't it imply that there are at least two different Beast Wars timelines anyway? Not really. They could be divergent timelines that branch off from the same core. Besides, making the 3H BW different from the show adds relative "legitimacy" to IDW-BW because that storyline presents no such discrepancy. I'm trying to keep the playing field even between the two.

3h's BW is 130,000 BC post-BW. IDW's is 70,000 BC mid-BW. Ramulus woke up out of hsi stasis pod twice.

Fundamentally, my problem is that, even if you 'can resolve all the differences (The mutants get back to cybertron for BM, Razorclaw and iguanus end up back in stasis pods, etc) you're distortign the shape of the source material in order to do it. They're seperate universes. They WANT to be seperate universes. If we'd gotten Primaeval Dawn #4, there'd probably be no question they're seperate universes.

And what happens when a new version of BW comes alogn that unquestionably ISN'T in this same continuity? The existing 'model' of how this fits, which bent the stories over badckwards to make them fit, breaks like a spring turned one time too many.

(And yes, I'm aware that I'm arguing in favor of continuity-meshing in bios and continuity seperatism in the sub-sections. It's not a contradiction. The sub-sections are suppsoed to be seperate.)

Third: How does OP resolve this issue at all? Was something "rewritten by Omega Point's events, and was never put back?" I touched on this in the "Analysis" section of my Reaching the Omega Point write-up. But here's how I see all the evidence lining up: In 2005, when Unicron threw his essence back in time, he laid the groundwork for a future that was never meant to be. (Several characters, including the Chronarchitect, make reference to the impossible becoming real.) The Dark Essence was continually being pulled back to its proper fate in 2005, but it resisted. (That's explicitly why BW Megatron was a threat to it: his dragon-breath was breaking the Essence's hold on the past.) The only thing that could save the Essence was the device that Shokaract was looking for: the "dimensional key" that could "seal the dimensional wall" (apparently Apelinq's transfer interlink). So it seems that, all else being equal, the Dark Essence was going to be sucked back to 2005 eventually. Intervention was necessary, and the fact that it was Shokaract who intervened - a being who couldn't exist without that intervention happening first - I blame on Unicron and his wacky god-powers. Unicron, trying desperately to hold on to the past, used his devil-magic to manifest a timeline where he succeeded, but the timeline needed to secure its own existence. I posit that everything that happened in the 3H-verse up until Point Omega itself was in this unstable timeline. We know that most of it was, anyway: Antagony appeared in just the second story. How could Packrat, Fractyl, et al, be related? Well, in the Shokaract timeline, the Dark Essence never returns to 2005. So right there, things begin to change. I don't know what was SUPPOSED to happen to it then, but it didn't, so a snowball effect is likely. That snowball effect could've led to four extra Maxies and Preds on the Axalon and Darksyde. Who eventually have some adventures with Furmanite and Plot Devices on prehistoric Earth. But when Point Omega happened, and the Dark Essence went back to 2005 where it belonged, the snowball effect disappeared, and the Mainframe BW resulted. No extra Beasties, no Antagony, no apocalypse between Master Blaster and Other Victories.

But 'When Omega Point happened' Fractyl and Packrat were still around. They were roaming the post-BW era, got picked up by Primal prime,a nd then ended up back on Cybertron in BM. So, clearly, they were never erased.

Characters whose existance was a result of Shokaract's actions (like Windrazor) later vanished. Indeed, the confrontation itself sems to have retroactively un-happened (Primal remembers it only gfuzzily when forcibly remidned.) Fractyl and Packrat did not vanish. Ergo they are not a result of the Omega Point time-meddeling.

So! I admit that a lot of that is conjecture. Conjecture is an absolute necessity when trying to describe Omega Point. But I try to call it out with "perhaps"es and "maybe"s where appropriate. And in these character-articles specifically, I say that OP "may have had significant effects"..."if his presence was the result of the corrupt Shokaract timeline..." If you don't buy the 2005-snowball theory, or you're comfortable with the characters being around (either unseen in the Mainframe-verse or seen in a 3H-BW that didn't self-destruct), then more power to you. But I thought this possible explanation needed to be included in the article to keep the options open. - Jackpot 07:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not that there is conjecture- often try to fill in holes in entries with a quick italicised note of 'apparently this happened offscreen' or 'possibly this hole coudl be filled with simple explanation A' or even- 'Yeah, that doesn't fit. We don't know either.'

You wrote 137 words of fannon explaining why this character never existed and we should ignore him. There was no bio or explanation of what this character actually DID in this continuity, and indeed the next entry contained indications that Vice-grip probably did actually exist.

It's not the explain-away that bothers me, I agree it's silly to say these guys were off-screen... but you put clarifications in place withotu a history to go with it. Your clarification didnt' fit the material. Your clarification marginalized the other material- and most awful of all, it was really long. So;

• Said nothign cannonical
• Said little of merit
• Did not fit with other things
• Unnecessarily long.

I'd call that a trifecta of suck- except it's four.

(I'm being ruder than I have to be, I know.)

Damnit, look at Hauler, or season 2 of the g1 cartoon. 'Off screen' does happen to characters. Does it strain credability? Only if you believe that fiction should be just as random as the real world, complete with multiple-people-named-John. That's common in the real world, but never happens in fiction unless it's suppsoed to mean something. Contrivance-for-concienience's sake is a conceit of all fiction. Writing a solid paragraph wringing hands over the existance would be like trying to write up the Visitations script while ignoring the 4th-wall-breaking aspects. "Ben Yee is an unknown entity on prehistoric Earth. When he betrayed Megatron's location to the maximals, Megatron killed him in a welter of gore." -Derik 08:46, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Voice Actor?

I know it wqas Scott, can we get a trivia note of what he sounded like? (Was it a Peter Lorre impression?) -Derik 09:32, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

You're right that what I wrote wasn't strictly canonical. It was BASED on canon, it was CONSISTENT with canon, but it was a theory and not a fact. Hence the "if, maybe" language. However, your repeated claims that the theory "doesn't fit the material" seem to be based on the belief that Fractyl and Packrat "were roaming the post-BW era, got picked up by Primal prime,a nd then ended up back on Cybertron in BM." This is untrue. They never appeared in any published Primeval Dawn comic, nor did their Wreckers appearances declare anything of the sort. They simply did not reappear until the story was back on Cybertron. Therefore, given the structure of the negated Shokaract timeline, it's entirely possible that in the proper, stable chronology, they'd been on Cybertron the whole time. I don't know what would've happened in Primeval Dawn #4, but its unpublishedness (or even nonexistence?) makes it noncanonical anyway. All of your other objections boil down to a matter of taste: It's too long; it solves a problem you don't deem worthy of solving; it suggests too much negation given what little we have anyway. And I just don't understand what you meant by "you put clarifications in place withotu a history to go with it." What, you want me to MAKE UP a story for them in the possible timeline where they're not in the Beast Wars? They could be ANYWHERE, doing ANYTHING. What does it matter?

I agree PD's nonpublishedness makes it nonconnonical, but, for isntance, the PD TEASER which was published shwoed TM Packrat on Earth. (The story was rewritten after the teaser, but it contradicted nothign IN the teaser, thus...) And anyway, Devcon mentiosn beign the one to nab Packrat on Cybertron, resulting in him beign shipped offworld in a stasis pod. (It's an old british legal concept called 'Transportation' used to fuel colony growth.)

You're making soto-voice comments about 'well, you say my explanation doesn't fit things...' but every time you revise, I keep finding details you missed.

Maybe, yeah, at some point you'll come up with a version that manages to resolve the two. 'Packrat was shipped off to another colony, and snuck back to Cybertron, past the orbital defenses, just in time to hook up with Primal Prime's crew who was arriving from prehistoric Earth.' But Occam's Razor tells me there's a lot more evidence that they weren't erased and the timeline wasn't rewritten. Selective reading of the source material does not make an argument right.-207.224.79.178 21:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, I will concede your point that IDW-BW puts the entire Beast Wars into a different timeframe from 3H-BW, meaning that they can't have both split off from the "same" Mainframe-BW. But I maintain that the existence of Fractyl, et al, in 3H-BW puts more philosophical distance between it and "mainstream reality," therefore making IDW-BW "more real," or at least more relevant. And since the 3H universe is already confined to convention comics, it needs all the help it can get.

Upshot: I won't try reposting the exact same paragraph again. Your suggestion in Interrobang's talk page that I put a note on the "3H Comics" page or something is worth thinking about. Or perhaps I'll just add links to the "Analysis" section of Reaching the Omega Point with a brief note about continuity wrinkles. Unless this discussion reveals some new, concrete facts that fundamentally change my theory, I still hold that it's worth mentioning SOMEWHERE, in some form. - Jackpot 09:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I should note that Packrat was in the unreleased Flash animation for Primeval Dawn 2, if that means anything substantial. Also, the convention toy characters are probably showing up in IDW's Beast Wars profile books, though likely not with their established histories. --ItsWalky 14:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

So, seriously- what did Vice Grip sound like? -207.224.79.178 21:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)