Talk:Cryotek (RID)

At some point, I need to rewrite this to adhere to the style guide. --ItsWalky 03:50, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes you do. --M Sipher 03:52, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you go fix Wideload the way he should be. --ItsWalky 03:53, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Cryotek's actual plan

All right. What was it? Okay, so we know from 3H that it would ultimately end up with the resurrection of Unicron blah blah blah, but... aside from that. He wants to send the Dinobots, the Mutants, and the Wreckers on fools errands. But the real Vector Sigma breaks through the Oracle and gives the Wreckers a REAL mission -- protecting the Divine Light. But... apparently that was Cryotek's true purpose all along? How does that work? Tengu, where are you? --ItsWalky 05:42, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Cryotek's purpose was to claim the divine light, lead the Quintessons to Cybertron (whose reformation int he last episode of BM they were unaware of- they lsot contact witht he planet whwn the Oracle went offline) and betray thrm, using the Divine Light's ability to act as a 'fuse' through which to transfer Primus's power either directly into himself, or somehow to Unicron.

This fails for some reason,a nd the result ins INSTEAD that Primus himself comes online, as seen in TFU, instead of having to work through Vector Sigma. They got the fuse back the Quints pulled when they first invaded the nascent Cybertron, and so Primus can function again.

That doesn't answer my question. If it was Cryotek's original purpose to claim the divine light, then why did Primus have to come online to *give the Wreckers different directions than otherwise intended*? The implication is that everyone was to be sent off-world into fools errands, but Vector Sigma broke through the Oracle to give the Wreckers their *real* mission, not the fake one. And yet, this was apparently Cryotek's plan from the beginnings, despite it all? It's a plot hole. Unless, I guess, Cryotek set up the whole "Primus broke through and gave us a real mission" thing, and it was his voice that was pretending to be Vector Sigma breaking through in the first place, putting on this charade for the benefit of the Wreckers. But that seems a little absurd. Why bother? Just give them their orders like the others. --ItsWalky 16:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

His plan was A BLOOH BLAH BALLLAHA BLOOOOOOOOOO!!! -hx 03:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I still don't 'see' the conenction between Cryotek and Unicron, bt it's clearly there- Wreckers even list shim as a minion of Unicron, so who knows? -Derik 08:27, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Why's he under RID? X-BoB58 10:22, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

His toy was released as a RiD toy. However given that all his fiction is G1/BW/BM/TFU related it does seem odd. I just noticed it myself. It really isn't "the continuity he's most associated with" which I thought was the standard. I haven't looked do we have an entry for RiD Optimus Primal, or was his foray as a spirit guide for that Prime covered under BW? ZacWilliam 10:29, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Latter-day RiD segued into Universe (Fire Convoy preparing the Spychanger for a great comign threat, the foundign of the Interdimensional whosiswhatsis...)

I think can, maybe, say that BM Primalw as sent to RiD Prime to inform him of these coming threats we're just told he's preparing for?

(That's purely metatextual of course, like toy-continuity vs. show continuity, sicne I think RiD Prime started preparign after being kidnapped by Unicron during TFU #2 and subsequently beign returned home.)

If anything, this would be someting Primal did during his post-death pre-reincarnate state. He doesnt' mention it, but it doesnt' rule it out. (And even if it didnt' 'happen' for the Comic, that's where this piece of toy-continuity is suppsoed to fit.) -Derik 11:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

We had a big discussion in the "series tags" a couple days back, but people seem to keep ignoring it, so it ended up being largely me and Steve-o. "Toy-series of origin" is the way of tagging that simply makes the most SENSE and is EASIEST. You "common association" is far too open to interpretation. Of course, I'm still waiting to see if the UT and BW and J-G1 characters should be broken up into sub-series for consistancy's sake, which, despite me liking how we emphasise the use of (UT), I think we SHOULD. --M Sipher 19:51, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

That seems awfully toy-specific for a CHARACTER DRIVEN WIKI! If they wanted toys they would go to TFU.info. X-BoB58 19:26, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Characters... WHO ARE BASED ON TOYS. Who are created TO SELL TOYS. Toys are the core of the damn franchise. --M Sipher 19:28, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And it's not like the information here is strictly the stuff you can already find on tfu.info....--G.B. Blackrock 20:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Spark drivers

In response to "Who the fuck said that," the answer is "HASBRO." --ItsWalky 07:44, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Decepticon symbol

There's a Decepticon symbol on Crytotek's left shoulder in Theft of the Golden Disk. Is he supposed to be a former Decepticon? -- SFH 20:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Toy first or character first?

If this is the wrong place to ask this, then I apologize. But I must at least ask. Did Cryotek originate as a redecoed figure of the TM2 Megatron first, or was he first conceived as a character in TF fiction? From what I can gather, his toy came out in late 2001 as a Target exclusive in the RiD toyline, and his first fictional appearance was in The Wreckers issue 2: Betrayal at BotCon 2002.

However, I wholeheartedly remember having once read a FAQ question regarding when/if Cryotek would be getting a toy release at all and if it would be a BotCon exclusive or not. The answer given said that it would be a Target exclusive in the RiD toyline, which did come to pass. Though, the way the question was asked implied that the nature of his character was already made known ahead of his toy's release date, which has me wondering if his persona was conceived and made known prior to the release of his toy.

If I could find this old question it would greatly help me in trying to figure this out. I've been searching on the WayBack Machine's archives of BotCon.com and OTFCC.com, but have found nothing yet. Any assistance to figuring this out would be greatly appreciated. --Sabrblade 23:16, 11 March 2011 (EST)

If you read the Notes section to this page, you would know exactly all about how we knew about him prior to his release date. --ItsWalky 00:00, 12 March 2011 (EST)

RID vs G1

Does there need to be a RID Cryotek specifically separate from G1? There does, right? And that would mean that this guy would need to move somewhere else, probably Cryotek (G1). Someone double check this before I start doing stuff, I often seem to be on the wrong side of these universe naming and moves. --Giggidy (talk) 20:30, 22 September 2015 (EDT)

I believe Cryotek was just one of a bunch of toys that were meant to be released earlier, but were pushed back into the RID toyline for reasons. The big Beast Machines Optimal Primal toy was released in this line too, but I'm pretty sure we're not going to pretend that he's a separate character either. --Ascendron (talk) 20:34, 22 September 2015 (EDT)

Right, I was only asking because Ask Vector Prime today had the Robots in Disguise Elite Guard encountering Cryotek. I'm fine with just putting that info here. --Giggidy (talk) 20:36, 22 September 2015 (EDT)

Ah, nertz. I hadn't gotten around to check AVP today. --Ascendron (talk) 20:41, 22 September 2015 (EDT)

I guess I'm just not getting something. There needs to be two ships named Longbow, one for Cybertron and one for RID, but we're ok with having just one Cryotek across G1 & RID? If there's a logic here I'm not seeing it. --Giggidy (talk) 00:12, 23 September 2015 (EDT)

I thought you were referring to the fact that Cryotek was a RID toy as basis for splitting him off. With the info from AVP, I have no arguments against making a separate page for RID Cryotek. --Ascendron (talk) 00:17, 23 September 2015 (EDT)

I'm all for splitting a page for RID Cryotek. However, I think we should wait to see if AVP clarifies anything on RID Cryotek. The post almost sounds to me like it's Primax 797.18 Epsilon Cryotek who has escaped the formless dimension into Viron 903.0 Beta. After all, it's big hero JG1 Optimus Primal/Convoy who's pursuing him. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 00:29, 23 September 2015 (EDT)

Sounds reasonable, considering that AVP doesn't seem like it'll be around for much longer. --Ascendron (talk) 00:31, 23 September 2015 (EDT)

Waiting to see if we learn more makes a ton of sense to me. --Giggidy (talk) 09:05, 23 September 2015 (EDT)

In any case, even if there isn't a page split, can we consider making an exception to the disambiguate-by-franchise-rather-than-continuity-family rule? It works in most case, but I think here it only serves to confuse things; maybe moving if to Cryotek (BW) or Cryotek (G1) would be better? --Riptide (talk) 02:49, 23 September 2015 (EDT)

I don't think it's especially confusing, and I'd really rather not open up those floodgates. --ItsWalky (talk) 04:09, 23 September 2015 (EDT)

Well, I found it particularly confusing when I first found the wiki, and I'm not sure what floodgates it would open - as far as I know, the only comparable situation (i.e. characters from one continuity family being first released as part of another family's franchise) would be a few DOTM Mini-Cons, etc? I feel like it's similar to how Animated Timelines characters would, IIRC, be disambiguated to "Animated" rather than "Timelines" back when the wiki still used (Timelines). Sorry, I'm rambling - what I'm trying to say is that it did confuse me as a casual fan, and given the recent increased focus on being accessible to casual fans... --Riptide (talk) 05:12, 23 September 2015 (EDT)

It's just a case of cracks starting to appear in our organization scheme. When we started this, at the end of the Unicron Trilogy era, characters across different universe were pretty distinct. There were very few "lore" characters, and we'd just lived through four years of repeated "nameslaps" where Ironhide could be a female Mini-Con and a punk rookie Autobot. Post-movie, as characters become more consistent across the spectrum of Transformers stories, and many names now hold meaning, some of these delineations grow to feel quite pointless. Knock Out, for instance, really is exactly the same character across the Prime cartoon and IDW comics, he just calls a different planet home. I think it's quite clear that AVP has been poking that particular bear of late, with it's Micromaster/Mini-Con/Cyberdroid analogues, or that answer from just the other day about an Aurex Hi-Q and Arcana. - Chris McFeely (talk) 06:11, 23 September 2015 (EDT)

oh hey remember when we came to a consensus to move this page OH WAIT --ItsWalky (talk) 18:57, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

Revert please. Also, I wouldn't say "cracks just appeared" since this was all done on purpose by human agency to write new facts directly for the wiki but whatever we've been over that. --Thylacine 2000 (talk) 21:39, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

apparently there have been too many intermediate edits and I CAN'T just revert it. Or maybe there's some trick I'm forgetting. --Thylacine 2000 (talk) 22:01, 1 October 2015 (EDT)

Ok, consensus is RID and G1 Cryotek are close enough to live on the same page? Works for me. --Giggidy (talk) 00:44, 2 October 2015 (EDT)

Discussion from Cryotek (G1)

I'm sorry, I'm going to be a little anal about my understanding of this wiki. Under the current policy, I can't wrap my head around combining characters from RID and Beast Machines onto one page. The Cryotek from Vector Prime's story is a RID character. (The story gives no indication otherwise.) If that policy ever changes, that's fine. But this isolated incident of Cryoteks from two continuity families on one page is weird. I understand the ideas of cross-franchise characters being very similar and the desire to keep them together, but that requires a significant reorganization of the wiki en masse. This helter skelter fashion of changing the status quo is not a great idea. --Crockalley (talk) 00:55, 3 October 2015 (EDT)

Yeah, I'm going to open this can of worms again. As I pointed out on the Allspark, there's not really any good reason to have this page merged that wouldn't require a major reexamination of the wiki's rules, other than "this is stupid and I don't want to acknowledge it". I'd also like to point out that as of the Optimus Primal answer Viron Cryotek doesn't have that much in common with Primax Cryotek (criminal mastermind vs genocidal scientist), and that the previous consensus seemed to be less "this shouldn't have been split/moved" and more "this shouldn't have been split/moved without discussion". So... can we discuss this some more? --Riptide (talk) 13:42, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

I suppose I could support this idea. But I point out that Primax Cryotek was also a scientist just like Viron Cryotek. And for all intents and purposes they share their only toys, do they not? S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 14:22, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

True, I suppose; I more meant that Viron Cryotek doesn't have the criminal/gangster element central to most portrayals of Cryotek. I guess the idea behind writing Viron Cryotek and RID Jhiaxus into Ask Vector Prime was to, essentially, retroactively make those toys' use as G1 characters into "repurposings"? Not to deliberately fuck with the wiki's classification system, as some have suggested. So yeah, they share toys. --Riptide (talk) 15:00, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Well yeah, I think the main intent was to give portrayals that matched the toys' actual packaging. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 16:40, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

I've been sandboxing something that this might be a good test case for. A formal write-up of the idea of a character that exists in multiple continuity-families at the same time. User:Giggidy/Sandbox/Multi-Family Character. Perhaps Cryotek would be a good test case to start rolling it out? --Giggidy (talk) 17:40, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

I just honestly think that based on what information on Viron Cryotek we have, he's not all that similar to Primax Cryotek... well, okay, he's about as similar as cartoon and comic Shockwave, but they're kind of extremes anyway. I don't think this is the best point for an "exception" to be made. I guess I could tolerate it, but I think a better starting point would be Knock Out (G1) and Knock Out (Prime), who a) have major appearances in both clusters, and b) are much closer to being the same character archetype. Others seem to disagree, but I feel that the Cryoteks don't share much more than the name and the toy. --Riptide (talk) 17:45, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Is there any more momentum to split this page? If not, I'm removing the move tag within the next 48 hours. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 11:57, 21 December 2015 (EST)

I'll lay out the facts as I see them:

• Viron Cryotek is differently-characterised to Primax Cryotek and exists in a different continuity family; he looks the same, but see Bulkhead (G1). In most cases, this would be enough for each character to get their own page.
• Nobody objected to Jhiaxus (RID) being given a page, which suggests that the objection is less about the characters being the same and more about the fact that the page, if split, would have to be renamed.
• There hasn't actually been any reason given to have the pages merged and the rules bent, other than "this is stupid, and it's an attack on our classification system.
• Which, as I said, I don't think it is - it's making the RID Cryotek toy into an RID character. Much like, say, DOTM Bulkhead or Prime Evac, who are Prime Bulkhead and Ride Evac made into "their own characters" because they were in the DOTM and Prime lines.
• If split, then, the pages would either go under "Cryotek (RID)" and "Cryotek (AVP)" (treating the AVP guy as a new character), or "Cryotek (Universe)" and "Cryotek (RID)" (treating the AVP guy as the "real" identity of the toy and the Primax character as a "repurpose"). I'd vote for the latter, because the former seems really confusing.

If anyone could actually give a reason to not split, I'd probably be open to the idea, but as-is it seems like it's only merged because people don't want the existing page to be moved. --Riptide (talk) 13:08, 21 December 2015 (EST)

I'm of the opinion that most RID dudes should just be folded into their G1 counterparts (or vice versa, whatever), because the distinction between Viron and Primax is pointless, but as long as we're keeping stuff like Jhiaxus (RID) or Sky-Byte (G2), this should be split into Cryotek (RID) with Cryotek (BM) as the repurpose. Which is what would've happened had the comics came about during the wiki's life instead of prior. Saix (talk) 13:36, 21 December 2015 (EST)

If we are being objective, RipTide is right, as the rules stand now, this needs a split, if we want to debate the nature of the rules and how they are affected by the Families that is something we will have to bring up later (I think the central thesis is whether we split based on fiction [i.e. This is a guy from Animated vs a guy from Prime] or based on character [i.e. this guy is a doctor , this guy is a girl and a minicon]) I personally was under the assumption of the former(partially because it would lead to frankly arbitrary declarations of how close to each other portrayals are, and arbitray declarations are something a bastion of information like us should not do [this is also why I was against Battlemasters characters being best fit into families] but it seems to me that those splits until recently lined up and now it's becoming less murky as charcaters are becoming closer and closer, there have been talks on why IDW and Prime Knockout are separate, and Hi-Q being on page, which frankly I found absurd, but that's only because of the aforementioned assumption that we split based on fiction, not on how "similar" characters are to each other.

TLDR: Until we settle the issue of whether we merge characters based on being similar or being in the same family; something that tended to be one in the same until now, we have to go by the current rules, and as I understand them we have a G1 Cryotek under Crytek(RID) and an RID Cryotek under (AVP).

Otherwise we continue a habit of cherry picking and dancing around our policies when it suits us, instead of actually dressing our polices.

And what good is a system if we can just go...nah I dont like this, when it doesn't fit what we want? Under our rules IDW is G1,(originally because it was "Under the g1 franchise" as the Continuity Family page says and then later when it was named Primax almost certainly because of this wiki saying it was g1) I of course feel that is total bullshit, but that is what it is, and me and others who feel that way cant just make it not G1 by saying it's silly and stupid on the talk page. In any case this is going to keep happening and this pothole method isn't holding up.

Perhaps a Community Vote(even though I am pretty sure it's just an open and shut case where we personally feel the policy Lush City (talk) 22:51, 21 December 2015 (EST)

If a split were to happen, I can certainly say for sure that if any Primax Cryotek page were to be created separately from Viron Cryotek, said Primax page would definitely have a "(Universe)" disambiguation tag since the guy debuted in Universe fiction. --Sabrblade (talk) 00:17, 22 December 2015 (EST)

Splitting vote

Seems like now's as good a time as any to put it to the question. Obviously, I vote to split. --Riptide (talk) 18:24, 23 December 2015 (EST)

I agree. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 18:31, 23 December 2015 (EST)

I vote no split. --Giggidy (talk) 18:37, 23 December 2015 (EST)

Split. -Foffy the Sheep (talk) 18:44, 23 December 2015 (EST)

Split, please. --Crossblades (talk) 19:13, 23 December 2015 (EST)