Talk:Unknown Generation 1 animation studios

I did wonder about this news item which Nevermore linked to on the Talk:Toei page, which seems to suggest that it was Toei's Filipino branch. But that were only set up in 1986, unless they're wrong about the date... --abates 16:48, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, I forgot about that little nugget. I added it to the article, though since the dates don't match up, we can't be certain, I suppose. --DrSpengler 18:37, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

The current reference link for Burbank is a 404. --flicky1991 14:38, 10 February 2016 (EST)

Maybe it was Burbank Animation?

Maybe this studio was Burbank Animation? The studio was a Philippine division of Burbank Films Australia, based out of Makati, and multiple people who worked there mentioned several Marvel shows on their resume, including My Little Pony, Jem and Defenders of the Earth.--71.142.249.86 01:13, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Indeed! And it was set up in 1983, so it'd fit the time period. --abates 02:04, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Burbank's official website doesn't list any of their farmed-out work for other studios, unfortunately. IMDB doesn't even list their work prior to 1989. Then again, that site just seems to be focused on their Australian division with no mention of their Filipino joint. This article says the Filipino studio was founded in 1983, but I can't find anything listing the shows they've worked on. Any way we can get a link to interviews with some of those Burbank employees who said they worked on Marvel/Sunbow productions? --DrSpengler 08:55, 4 November 2009 (EST)

I found a "Boy Sibulo Aureliano" who lists Transformers in his resume, and he wa an animator for Burbank Animations from '83 to '88. I've sent him an email. --FortMax 14:08, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Awesome. I know only, like, 4 people are going to end up caring, but if we manage to solve this mystery I think it'll be really, really cool. After that, we'll just have to find a way to figure out what 7 episodes from season 2 they animated. That might actually be even harder to figure out. --DrSpengler 14:10, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Stuff like this is why the wiki exists. First we get more information on the horribly awesome (or awesomely horrible) Headmasters dub, and now the possibility of this. Fall's shaping up to be grand here. --Bluestreak7 14:18, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Stuff like this is only going to help the wiki. (And hurt the server.) ---Blackout- 14:29, 4 November 2009 (EST)

If we can get some more names from people working for Burbank's Filipino division during hte 80s, we might be able to find their online resumes and hit paydirt. I've found a couple so far, though none of the ones I've found list Transformers under the shows they worked on. We might be able to get lucky, though. --DrSpengler 14:34, 4 November 2009 (EST)

Keep trying. Figuring this out = this site gets a little more famous = this site gets a little more hits = this site climbs up in search engine rankings = the Squid caching system dies. ---Blackout- 14:37, 4 November 2009 (EST)

I think Burbank is probably the most likely choice. I've been rooting around on Google and found this PDF document which says that the first animation company to open in the Philippines was Burbank in 83, followed by a company called Optifex and then Fil-Cartoon over the next couple of years. From various CVs and other sites I've found, Optifex was exclusively doing out-sourced work for Hanna-Barbera until 88, when Hanna-Barbera opened Fil-Cartoon as a wholly owned subsidiary and Optifex was left doing domestic animation before rebranding. So that only really leaves Burbank, who multiple people list as having worked on Jem, MLP and DotE on their CVs. Of course the other possibility is that Paul Davids was mistaken in saying that any of Transformers was sent to the Philippines and confused it with these other shows out-sourcing there. Danja 06:56, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

Ok, definitely not Burbank. I sent a Facebook message to Jess Espanola, currently an assistant director on the Simpsons and formerly an animator at Burbank at the time the episodes were animated and he actually replying, saying "We didn't do any Transformer shows at Burbank. Maybe Toei Animation studio did it because Toei had a subsidiary studio ijn the Philippines". Danja 04:54, 15 September 2011 (EDT)

Quite out of the blue I got another Facebook message from Jess Espanola. He was in the Philippines last month and while seeing friends at Toei's Philippines branch asked about Transformers production (which is pretty awesome of him). The manager, Nestor Palabrica, confirmed that Toei Philippines did Transformers animation in '86 (so season three). Is this the first confirmation of Toei's Philippines branch working on G1? It might explain Davids' comments/memories. Danja 08:42, 20 June 2012 (EDT)

Hey, uh, should this Toei stuff not be on the page? It seems to be the biggest lead we have... --flicky1991 14:21, 30 June 2013 (EDT)

I think this has to be another mistaken recollection. The website says it was established in November 1986 - well after all of season 3 would have been produced. Literally the only thing it could refer to would be "The Return of Optimus Prime," which would mean its work is indistinguishable from Toei proper. - Chris McFeely (talk) 19:08, 10 February 2016 (EST)

The original article that credited Toei's Philippine branch with working on Transformers also mentioned G.I. Joe (presumably only the Marvel/Sunbow version), the final episodes of which were broadcast in November 1986, which really messes things up! I checked the credits to the Joe movie, the only production released after this date, and there're no names or credits with an obvious Philippine connection, but there are a boatload of Japanese staff names credited under Toei. Therefore my suspicion is that the founding date of the studio genuinely might be off, and it's possible that they could actually have done some Transformers episodes prior to "The Return of Optimus Prime".

Being a Toei branch, I would expect them to have copies of the correct character models. Plus, Toei's old website indicated they were responsible for the animation for all 95 episodes of the original Joe series. Therefore, if the Philippine branch actually animated any of those Joe episodes, as is suggested in that article, Toei still counted it as their work. The same would have to apply to Transformers. I don't necessarily think any of the thirteen season 3 episodes most closely identified with Toei were done in the Philippines, as they generally have a higher standard of animation than many of Toei's season 2 episodes. An example of a very likely candidate for a prior episode that might have been animated by them would be "Starscream's Ghost".

Another possibility to muddy the waters further is that the "Transformers" credited to Toei's Philippine branch could actually have been episodes some of the later three Japanese-exclusive series. That article mentioned G.I. Joe, but also undisputed anime series Dragon Ball Z and Sailor Moon. There's a fair number of artistic variations to be found in the G1 anime episodes, particularly in Masterforce, where there are a few episodes that aren't *quite* up to scratch when it comes to character renditions.

Whoever the mysterious third studio was, I don't think it was Toei's Philippine branch. - Jon T (talk) 20:06, 12 February 2016 (EST)

Hasbro Q&A

Anyone tried the Hasbro Q&A yet? Maybe that might help. If no-one has, can somebody do that in the next Q&A? Item42 10:44, 11 June 2010 (EDT)

No one has yet. Would Hasbro even have that information? --abates 18:59, 11 June 2010 (EDT)

Maybe they don't.But it would be helpful if they can tell us pretty much anything whatsoever. That's better than what we have now. Item42 01:51, 12 June 2010 (EDT)

Identification criteria?

I just noticed that some while back, a user identified which episodes from season 2 were done by the Filipino studio. For the record, what visual criteria was used to identify those episodes, so I can make a note of it in the article? --DrSpengler 12:10, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

Is there any proof at all about Philippine animation?

We're basing all of this on one writer's (who wasn't even involved in the animation production of the show) vague 30 year old recollection? I think it's very presumptuous to attribute those episodes to this likely non-existent studio. Japanese wikipedia lists Japanese studio Anime R (アニメアール) as working on the show and also Korean studio Daewon Animation (大元動画); it's more likely either of these studios did those episodes as they both worked on American cartoons during the '80s.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Evan1975 (talk • contribs).

I might have cracked it

If you didn't catch my edit to Inferno's article earlier today, I observed that his different head design (with a more rounded helmet, softer features, and differently-colored head fins) occurred in both "Auto Berserk" and "Kremzeek!", two episodes we'd previously suspected of being done by this mystery studio. Following this line of thought, I've done more studying, I think I might actually have spotted some visual clues that identify this studio's episodes. First off, "Make Tracks" also features Inferno's alternate head design. Further, all these episodes have a common trait - they soften the faces of new 1985 characters, by changing lines that are supposed to run from the points of their eyes down to their chins into more curved "cheekbone-ish" contours, making their faces look more like they're "one piece", instead of the collection of angled planes Toei normally do. "Triple Takeover" is another that's I've spotted that does this. Check out these comparisons of Red from "Auto-Berserk" and Astrotrain from "Triple Takeover" next to their angular, Toei faces from "The God Gambit":

I literally never noticed Astrotrain's grey helmet in this episode before, and I thought it could be another indicator to look for, but can't find any other instance of it. Adding in "A Prime Problem", which conventional wisdom has always held is animated by the same team as "Auto Berserk", that's five of the eight episodes. I've got more examining to do, but I really think I might be onto something with this - Chris McFeely (talk) 16:49, 12 January 2016 (EST)

I think there were only 7 non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes from season 2, so you're even closer than you think. The onion in the ointment though is whether or not more than 7 episodes have traces of those clues. It could mean that Toei and the unknown studio did sections of the same episode (not unheard of) but that only makes things muddier. Keep us updated! --DrSpengler (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2016 (EST)

Just curious, but what's the criteria for picking "Prime Problem" out as a non-Toei episode? I recall The Guy We Had to Wipe From History had selected it, too. I don't recall it looking particularly unToei-like and the overall lack of season 2 characters to give the "cheekbone test" to makes it even harder. It also has little moments of nice animation, if I recall correctly, and the cited episodes like "Triple Takeover" and "Kremzeek" were all much more listless or just plain fugly. --DrSpengler (talk) 17:16, 12 January 2016 (EST)

It goes back to Zobovor. Both it and "Auto Berserk" have moments of pretty incomparable fluidity, and a general softness of line and warmth of colour about them. They both have scenes where a soft white "airbrush" effect is used to create a metallic effect that I don't know I've seen anywhere else in the show. - Chris McFeely (talk) 17:21, 12 January 2016 (EST)

Gotcha. Now, I hate to even suggest this but... There's no guarantee that the 7 uncreditted episodes were ALL done by the same studio. There's a chance that multiple studios could have done them, hence why some seem to look better than others. OR, they could have ALL been done by the same studio like we've assumed, but different directors resulted in different looks and feels (like those season 1 episodes such as "Roll For It" that look super duper anime, while others don't look it at all). Working blind like this kinda sucks. I'm kind of wondering if we should change this article to something like "Unknown Generation 1 animation studio" rather than assume they were all done by the Filipino place (which may not have even been in the Philippines based on recent contention). --DrSpengler (talk) 17:26, 12 January 2016 (EST)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, to be honest. Fiddling around with this article to explain the sheer ambiguity of the whole thing would be a good move. If nothing else, I feel very confident about Inferno's alternate head being the biggest, most easily-spotted visual identifier. - Chris McFeely (talk)

OH-HO-HO!! I think I found another! In "Make Tracks," Tracks is coloured a bit differently to normal - in robot mode, he has black windows instead of clear ones, and his wheels are the same grey as his arms and legs, instead of the darker shade they normally are. Now, "Make Tracks" has the alternate Inferno head design, so I thought this alternate color model could be another hallmark to look out for, and after some searching, it appears in only one other episode - "The Secret of Omega Supreme", another famously shoddy one that was suspected of being non-Toei! That's six.... one more to suss out!! - Chris McFeely (talk) 15:56, 22 January 2016 (EST)

It's always been a difficult exercise to try and identify the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2, particularly since Toei clearly had multiple teams of animators working on the series. We know Toei did all of season 1 for instance, but there's a wild variation of animation styles and quality to be seen in those 16 episodes. Thus, the difference between a poorly animated Toei episode and one of the Filipino-animated episodes is not necessarily that distinct (such as the really shoddy Toei animation in "Divide and Conquer" or "The Ultimate Doom Part 1").

Two episodes not mentioned that I used to be fairly sure were animated by the Filipino studio are "War Dawn" and "Starscream's Brigade"; the style in both of them is just a little too off at times, particularly in the latter episode, even accounting for Toei's quality range. I agree that another suspect episode was "The Secret of Omega Supreme", and as an added bonus, Astrotrain has his grey helmet in that episode too. His helmet is purple in "Starscream's Brigade", but they might have had access to the correct colour model by then.

That takes us to eight episodes, so the one I'd be tempted to knock off the list would be "A Prime Problem"; it's not up to standard efforts clearly from Toei, but other than the "airbrush" effect I wouldn't be quite as quick to identify it as one of the Filipino episodes, but instead a sub-par Toei effort.

From a real-world perspective, it probably makes sense that there would be a smattering of episodes from this studio produced roughly mid-to-late range in season 2, when Toei would also have been assigning animators to the Movie. - Jon T (talk) 17:07, 22 January 2016 (EST)

I, too, considered "Starscream's Brigade," because it has that very soft, warm look, but I've discounted it because Grapple and Astrotrain (and following today's discovery, yep, Tracks) have the correct color models in it. We know from Akom's series-long goofs, it just wasn't likely that updated versions of these things got sent around. I DID miss that Astrotrain has the alternate helmet in "Secret," though!

Although it's certainly the case with "Secret" or "Kremzeek," I don't really think of "sub-par" as being a way of defining the non-Akom/Toei episodes. "A Prime Problem" and "Auto Berserk" have some really beautiful moments of fluid, high-frame rate stuff in them (the auto-scout weaving between the crytals, the missile shooting down the corridor into the bunker) that I don't know I can think of a really comparable example of from a Toei episodes. I spotted something similar in "Make Tracks" today, when Sideswipe tackles Ravage, that ties them together for me. - Chris McFeely (talk) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (EST)

For "sub-par", I'd refer to the actual character renderings rather than the fluidity of the animation itself, as the AKOM episodes are well-known for having some exceptionally fluid animated sequences. I still strongly suspect "Starscream's Brigade" was one of their episodes and that they simply had the colour models all updated by then. Personally, I wouldn't say it's necessarily a given that just because AKOM never received the correct colour models that the Filipino studio also never did, especially if they were a Toei subcontractor. Anyway, that's my take on it! - Jon T (talk) 18:41, 22 January 2016 (EST)

I can't deny, I keep coming back to "Brigade," because it does have that soft-lined quality. But I'd still say "Prime Problem" or "Auto Berserk" have better character renderings than a low-end Toei episode! - Chris McFeely (talk) 18:49, 22 January 2016 (EST)

I've been going through the suspect episodes again, and another colour-identifier to watch out for is Thrust; his shoulders and air intakes in robot mode are consistently red in every single shot he appears in both "Auto Berserk" and "Triple Takeover".

There's also a semi-recurrent error with Starscream's eyes occasionally being blue in "Auto Berserk", "Triple Takeover", and "Starscream's Brigade", but it's not quite as compelling an argument.

It's from 2012, but Zob posted a list on ATT (where else?) of his take on the non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes of season 2. Zob's list includes both "A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court" and "Hoist Goes Hollywood", which *really* look like Toei efforts.

Between us all, there's a consensus that "Make Tracks", "The Secret of Omega Supreme", "Kremzeek!" and "Triple Takeover" are almost certainly all non-Toei, non-AKOM episodes, and although Zob didn't include it in his list, observations on the episode make it pretty clear that "Auto Berserk" should also be included for a total 5 episodes identified.

Therefore, between all the lists, that would leave the remaining two episodes to probably be among "A Prime Problem", "War Dawn", or "Starscream's Brigade". Not much new here, but thought it worth noting! - Jon T (talk) 17:56, 7 February 2016 (EST)

OOh, good spot with Thrust's shoulders! I wonder what Zob was seeing "Hoist Goes Hollywood"? I can sort of see "Decepticon Raider" and "Brigade" we've talked about, but not that one. I think I'm going to put the five we've agreed upon up on the article, though. And also, move the article to a better name. - Chris McFeely (talk) 14:22, 9 February 2016 (EST)

Excellent work so far, as always! In the meantime, I've gone through the suspect episodes again, and I now agree with you on "A Prime Problem", and think the remaining episode is very probably "War Dawn". One of the smoking guns is the use (or lack thereof) of Toei-originated stock animation. That is, an episode featuring *two* Optimus Primes somehow doesn't use his stock transformation sequence at any point?

Prime's stock transformation sequence does appear in "Starscream's Brigade", and they also tinker with it slightly as he gets in a whole line before actually transforming, so they clearly had access to the original cels. Every other episode that ever used the sequence was clearly a Toei-animated episode, so I think "Brigade" may just be one of their episodes assigned to a lesser team, like "Divide and Conquer" (which we know was a Toei episode).

And of the episodes that didn't use Prime's transformation animation, this leaves "War Dawn" as the only other one that isn't in the same style as Toei's main animation teams. The aforementioned lack of season 2 characters makes this one really tough to 100% identify, but it's notable that the top of Slingshot's head is consistently white in every single shot, and we've seen before that the unknown studio were nothing if not consistent with their non-standard colours for newer characters. I know that particular error also cropped up in Toei episodes (most particularly "Aerial Assault"), but never for the entire episode, let alone one actually focussing on the Aerialbots. Yes, there's some Toei-looking shots in the episode, but these could have been retakes picked up by them later. - Jon T (talk) 19:53, 9 February 2016 (EST)

Oh NICE, I would NOT have thought to look for Prime's stock footage! Actually, let's crunch the numbers on that out in the open here on the talk page for everyone playing along at home.

Okay, so, thanks to the Cybertron Chronicle's records of it, we know that the only season 2 episodes that DON'T have the stock footage in them are (taking its use in any two-parters as evidence that both parts were done by the same studio): "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "A Prime Problem," "The Core," "The Master Builders," "Auto Berserk," "Microbots," "Decepticon Raider," "Golden Lagoon," "God Gambit," "Make Tracks," "Quest for Survival," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," "Sea Change," "Triple Takeover," "Prime Target," "Auto Bop," "Girl Who Loved Powerglide," "Hoist Goes Hollywood," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," "Trans Europe Express," "Cosmic Rust," and "BOT."

From that list, we can remove "City of Steel," "The Autobot Run," "The Core," "Auto Berserk," "Make Tracks," "Secret of Omega Supreme," "Kremzeek," and "Triple Takeover" as being the work of AKOM or ones we have definitely identified as "unknown studio" episodes based on the presence of outdated character models.

So then, going through the remaining episodes with that list of outdated character models as reference, we can eliminate the following episodes based on the fact the characters appear correctly in them: "The Master Builders" (Grapple, Inferno, and Tracks), "Microbots" (Smokescreen), "Golden Lagoon" (Thrust), "God Gambit" (Astrotrain), "Quest for Suvival" (Tracks, Smokescreen, and Grapple), "Sea Change" (Astrotrain), "Prime Target" (Astrotrain, Inferno, Grapple, and Tracks), "Auto Bop" (Tracks), "Girl Who Loved Powerglide" (Thrust), "Hoist Goes Hollywood" (Tracks, Astrotrain, and Thrust), "Trans Europe Express" (Tracks and Smokescreen), and "Cosmic Rust" (Astrotrain, Tracks, Smokescreen, and Inferno).

That leaves our only possible contenders as "A Prime Problem," "Decepticon Raider," "Aerial Assault," "War Dawn," and "BOT." "A Prime Problem" is visually quite distinct from all of these and I think we all agree it must be one of them. "BOT can be ruled out, as it features Ironhide using the generic Autobot laser pistol design, which only appears in Toei episodes. "Aerial Assault" is definitely way too good to be anything but a Toei episode, so that only leaves "Raider" and "War Dawn," but focusing on Slingshot's white skullcap, I checked out all his season 3 appearances, and he appears with it in every one of them animated by AKOM, which screams "outdated character model." Add that consistent use to the generally slipshod "War Dawn" (which also lacks the generic laser pistol, arming Ironhide and Ratchet with grey versions of Optimus's gun instead) and yes, I do believe we have our seven episodes!

Jon, what are you thoughts on my supposition that "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" are also this studio's work? - Chris McFeely (talk) 06:57, 10 February 2016 (EST)

Aside from the general competence of animation being higher than an average AKOM episode, I've always had suspicions about both episodes, and before Toei's website put the numbers up I seriously thought "Only Human" could have been one of theirs. I remember Rik Bakke also saying he had a production schedule that claimed Toei animated "Starscream's Ghost", casting more suspicion on that episode, although we now know neither episode is from Toei, as the numbers literally don't add up.

Based on further observations, "Starscream's Ghost" and "Only Human" do look to be from the same animators as each other. I concentrated on Rodimus as he's one of the few characters prominently seen in both episodes. His spoiler is invariably depicted as being mostly horizontal rather than angled/curved (when seen from the front) in AKOM or Toei episodes. The tyres on his upper arms also seem to be coloured red quite often (like in the Toei episodes), but with the hub cap still rendered white (like the AKOM episodes). Most tellingly, his rifle is coloured the same way between both episodes, whereas otherwise it's either black (Toei) or red (AKOM).

One quirk both episodes share with clear AKOM episodes is the use of outdated colour schemes, as with Galvatron's pink (rather than purple "underpants". They also share with AKOM the colouring of the inside of the season 3 characters' mouths. Plus, the centre of the square just below Perceptor's chest is coloured red in AKOM episodes, as well as in "Starscream's Ghost" (it's only one shot, but it's there) and "Only Human". This is particularly notable, as in "The Secret of Omega Supreme", he has his correct colour scheme seen in Toei productions, with the square being coloured completely white. Starscream's colourful back, with the orange back cowling and blue engines, isn't seen in any other episode.

Another observation from the same episode is that Galvatron transforms twice, and each time this occurs, his particle cannon correctly detaches itself from his arm and joins back with him once he's transformed. AKOM really liked to "cheat" this, with the cannon being either being "swallowed up" in his transformation or simply falling out of shot, never seen to be reattaching itself. Only rarely was this depicted correctly outside of a Toei episode (although amazingly, one example can be seen in "Carnage in C-Minor").

Given the prominent and consistent use of outdated character designs and generally much higher-quality animation, I think it makes for a compelling argument that these two were not in fact animated by AKOM. If not for their use of blatantly outdated models, the same sort of confusion that we've seen with the seven season 2 episodes might have also applied to these two when comparing to Toei's efforts. Whether it was actually the same studio as the unknown one that worked on season 2 may still be up for debate however (why did they suddenly start using AKOM's colours for Perceptor?). But one of the biggest supporting factors, aside from animation quality, is probably their propensity for adding lips to the characters, like in their last pre-Movie episode, "War Dawn".

Between the shared colour schemes with AKOM, and AKOM's own episode-long use of Cyclonus's alternate character model in "The Rebirth Part 2", it's easy to see why these two episodes were lumped in with AKOM's work for years.

And on that note, it makes it all the more compelling an argument that maybe "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been animated by AKOM after all either. AKOM tended to be consistent with their incorrect colour models, so it doesn't entirely make sense that for this one episode they suddenly started correctly colouring the inside of all the season 3 characters' mouths grey in every shot. AKOM look to have only stopped colouring the characters' mouths in the following season's "The Rebirth".

From a numbers point-of-view, it might make some sense that for season 3, Toei and AKOM both got 13 episode (i.e. a season's worth) orders, with the remaining episodes divided up into another three unknown studios. AKOM's work was bad, but there was a limit to how bad it got. "Carnage in C-Minor" is way underneath even AKOM's worst work.

Oh, and as a final observation I noticed two Thrusts show up with his alternate colour scheme in "Thief in the Night", if that's worth noting! - Jon T (talk) 20:02, 12 February 2016 (EST)

I find the thing I look for in particular on Rodimus is the extra trapezoid on his crotch, which isn't part of his "early" animation model, and so comes and goes from AKOM episodes depending what a particular scene is animated using. They always use the early colors, though, like Galvatron (whose early model isn't very different and really quite tricky to spot), so it's never colored in, and that's made me miss it more than once when it's there. The curved tips to his shoudlers are probably a better "tell." His gun is that odd color scheme in some parts of FFoD too, as I recall.

(Actually, speaking of Galvatron's early model, I think he might spend all of "Starscream's Ghost" in it.)

The Perceptor thing might not be that unusual - there's at least one scene in "Triple Takeover" where Astrotrain has his purple helmet, and another in "Secret of Omega" too. If this is only one scene in "Starscream's Ghost," I feeeeel like it's maybe negligible for our purposes.

It's sounding like it might be a good idea to move this page to "Unknown Generation 1 animation studios", so we can detail all of this on it. That "thirteen episode" theory makes an aaaaawful lot of sense...

I also spotted the red Thrusts after you pointed them out in the other episodes, and I went looking to see if AKOM did them too! AKOM also used grey-helmet Astrotrain consistently, I discovered! - Chris McFeely (talk) 20:40, 12 February 2016 (EST)

A sudden twist!

But wait! Could it be! I've just discovered that Hoist also has an early color model! In Toei episodes, the hinge in the centre of his chest is solid orange, and his tyres are white on the circular side, and black on the edge. On his outdate model, only the outermost points of his chest hinge are orange, with the central piece being green (which is actually-toy accurate), and his tyres are completely white (which is not). Like the others, this model appears in the original advert for the toy... in "Auto Berserk"... in "Kremzeek!"... aaaand... in "Decepticon Raider"!!!! Coooooould just be we've made the wrong call on "War Dawn" - the only potential monkey wrench is that for the three shots of "Kremzeek!" he appears in, Hoist is in his outdated model for two of them, but his finalized model for one, but then, that happens with Astrotrain in other episodes too. - Chris McFeely (talk) 17:17, 16 February 2016 (EST)

I am consistently impressed and intimidated by your thoroughness to this endeavor. --DrSpengler (talk) 17:21, 16 February 2016 (EST)

As am I. Say, it sounds like most of the 2nd year Autobot Cars have alternate models...have you tried checking Skids's appearance in Triple Takeover for differences with his other appearance in Quest for Survival? Perhaps he had different models as well, aseeing as how he's grouped with them (sort of). Just a thought. -Foffy the Sheep (talk) 18:07, 16 February 2016 (EST)

I haven't mentioned it as we're already certain about "Triple Takeover," but he does, actually! His Toei color model is a bit piecemeal anyway, as it colors parts that ought to be the same shade of blue in a mixture of dark and pale blues. In "TT," his robot mode appearances are all tiny figures in the distance, but his windows are light instead of dark, and the top of his chest is consistently the lighter blue, compared to the darker blue it was in "Quest."

Red Alert also has an alternate model, but it's barely worth noting, as "Auto Berserk" is on the only "unknown studio" episode he appears in, and the only difference is that they colour him bright white instead of off-white. But that does mean that all the '85 cars have early models; I suspect these were drawn up for the commercial that starred all of them (except Skids), and were later refined. - Chris McFeely (talk) 19:00, 16 February 2016 (EST)

Yes, another good catch on Hoist! The 1985 Autobot Cars commercial that his, and the other alternate models appear in, is definitely the key. I haven't seen the clearer copy that's on Youtube before now, but taking a closer look, the clear airbrushed look on Optimus Prime does look atypical for Toei's work. I wonder if the other studio animated this ad?

There are elements of "Raider" that do still look like Toei work, such as the faces of the human cast in multiple shots. Could this be circumstantial evidence that the other studio may have been a Japanese one? Plus the inclusion of an in-joke referencing Dungeons & Dragons (26 of its 27 episodes animated by Toei) is another element that originally threw the scent off. "Hank" may have been included in the original storyboards by a Marvel staffer, or perhaps by the same studio who did the one non-Toei D&D episode (I don't know which one it is, but it's a first season episode according to the old Toei website).

If Hoist's other model literally appears in no other episode that we've identified as being a Toei episode, then "Raider" *has* to be included in the list of non-Toei ones. "War Dawn" is the obvious suspect to remove, but Slingshot's persistently white skullcap is still a noteworthy anomaly. If we're agreed it's a Toei episode, then it may very well have been done by the same low-rent team that did "Starscream's Brigade".

With all the animation and production memorabilia collectors out there, it would be nice if *someone* had documentation that proved *something* - most crucially, the names of the other studios! - Jon T (talk) 19:04, 17 February 2016 (EST)

My only qualm with the Unknown Studio being Japanese in origin is all the bad Japanese text seen in "Kremzeek!" There's the possibility that the Unknown Studio farmed those backgrounds out to one of the Korean sub studios like Dai Won that did in-betweening and photography work, but that's getting so nitty-gritty we'd never be able to figure it out. --DrSpengler (talk) 10:15, 18 February 2016 (EST)

Oh YEAH, look at that! I didn't look closely at Prime before but yeah, there's the airbrushing from "Auto Berserk" and "A Prime Problem!" You know, it makes an extra little touch of sense that "A Prime Problem" would be the first episode to be done by this studio, if they did this commercial, being that it's the first one to feature any new 1985 product - in the script from the Ron Friedman auction, there are even deleted scenes that show it was supposed to introduce Inferno and Ramjet as well.

Y'know, I took a quick look, and Slingshot's even got his white skullcap in "Call of the Primitives." Added to the times it popped up in Toei episodes, if this was an early model (and it probably was since AKOM used it all the time), it seems like it must have made it pretty late in there. Like maybe his full-body model had the white head and his close-up head turnaround had the orange - two models that would have co-existed at Toei, and so the studio would have had them both at the same time and gone back and forth between them, but the head turnaround wouldn't likely have made it out to AKOM. - Chris McFeely (talk) 12:05, 18 February 2016 (EST)

AND HERE'S ANOTHER!! Thinking about "Decepticon Raider" and Warpath, I remembered the inconsistency we have noted on his article about what his face did when he talked, and thought there could be something to check there. So, yes, for my sins, I have just checked... sigh... every single piece of season 2 Warpath dialogue outside of "Raider"... and they are ALL in Toei episodes, and ALL* of the episodes in which his face is shown (because he delivers a LOT of his dialogue in tank mode, and from off-screen), he has the glowing blue slats. It's only in "Raider" that his mouthplate jiggles (and taking a second look, it actually only does that in one or two scenes, not moving otherwise) which seems to me to be more evidence it's done by the Unknown Studio.

(*Mitigating circumstances for "Quest for Survival," in which Warpath does not have the slats, but the only line he speaks while his face is on-screen in the episode is the partial finishing-off of a sentence begun from off-screen, which I think is enough to mitigate them not doing the effect. His plate certainly doesn't jiggle either.) - Chris McFeely (talk) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

That's some good work, Lou

I didn't follow half of your sleuthing, but I believe it, so good job Chris and Jon. With the 7 episodes more or less pinpointed, do you want to update the Season 2 info boxes to state the unknown studio definitively and not just "Toei (maybe)"? --DrSpengler (talk) 12:53, 18 February 2016 (EST)

Hey, thanks, Chief! I feel pretty good about going ahead and doing that. - Chris McFeely (talk) 13:48, 18 February 2016 (EST)

Carnage in C-Minor

Feeling like I'm on a roll, I decided to go back to Jon's suggestion that "Carnage in C-Minor" might not have been an AKOM episode, but the work of another unknown studio, since it's so bad, and lacks AKOM's characteristic interior-mouth coloring. I don't know that I've found anything useful yet - Soundwave's still in the wrong color scheme, Devastator still uses his oudated color model, like normal AKOM episodes, but I thought Broadside might be one to look at, since his outdated model extends to his alternate forms, rather than just his robot mode. "Carnage" was his first robot mode appearance, but when AKOM animated him again in "Grimlock's New Brain," they used his finalized model, and if we've learned anything from this endeavour, it's that studios that weren't Toei didn't get updated materials. So here's what I found: in "The Killing Jar," Broadside appears only in jet mode, but it's the jet mode from his finalized model. In "Thief in the Night," he appears only in carrier mode; in his first scene, it's a conglomerate of both his early and finished models - the hull of his early model, but the communications tower of his finished model (they have different dishes) - but in his second, transporting the Autobots, it's all the old model. And in "Carnage," both his robot and jet are from the early model... but the carrier is from the finished model. So... no, I don't know what to make of that at all. - Chris McFeely (talk) 05:42, 20 February 2016 (EST)

Companies mentioned on animenewsnetwork.com

Has anyone looked into the companies listed as having worked, uncredited, in the animation for the Transformers TV series according to animenewsnetwork.com ? According to them, Anime R, Ashi Productions, Kaname Production, Nakamura Production, and TMS Entertainment (Tokyo Movie Shinsha) all did so.

Firstly, ANN isn't always an accurate source of information thanks to it being user-contributed like this wiki. So information isn't always accurate to a fault. Second, most of those companies, save Ashi, are already on the main page listed as support studios. While we can't rule out anything based on what little information we actually have on the studios to begin with, I'd highly doubt they'd be hired by anyone else but Toei to work on the series. Wiffletron (talk) 20:04, 10 December 2018 (EST)

Ashi Productions

The page for "Call of the Primitives" says based on the staff and timing, the episode was likely animated by this company, [[Ashi Productions}}? They don't seem to be based in the Philippines, but as a Toei subcontractor would they be a contender for this studio? - TFfan1, March 29 2020, 11:09 PST