Talk:Insignia

There's such an AWESOME buried assumption in a section called 'Known Faction Symbols.' This whole idea that there are UNKNOWN faction symbols too. The idea that there is a BODY to this story beyond what's been written, the idea that it has a form BEFORE it's written... is facinating. -Derik 15:40, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel the Transtech faction symbols belong here. The line never happened. The events after BM have been well established- Transtech was not it. TFU stupidity aside- they are not all Autobots and Decepticons now.

And I have to ask- there was an Arachnoid faction-symbol?

Yea there was a screencap in Lone Maximal's faction symble thread b4 the allspark went down. X-BoB58 15:27, 4 April 2006 (PDT)

I think it's fine to include them, just with an info note that they're unused.

Speaking of rare symbols I really want the 5 Predacon symbols from IDW Beast Wars to be up here too, but should they go under BW PRedacon or be their own thing?

Also there should be pics of both the regular Con symbol and the three-pointed Cartoon version.

Oh and we should look through DW/IDW art to see if there are any other unnamed symbols there on buildings or anything. ZacWilliam 22:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Do we want to include pics of the diffrent variations of the faction cymbols that appeared on the toy packageing? I have the symbols from the top of the old Tech Spec archive saved on my PC and found images for the Blendtron and Commando symbols. I don't have the Cybertron symbols though.--FortMax 23:11, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I'd like both, frankly. My source for the G2 Autobot is distressingly low-resolution (I consider anythign under 400px wide low reolution) and I'm not entiely sure my blendtron synbol is 100% right. (there 1 or two edges I couldnt' tell if they were suppsoed to be rounded or squared off.)-Derik 01:09, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

The G2 Decepticon symbol looks nothing whatsoever like Clench besides sharing that diamond-shaped forehead crest, and it's missing arguably the most distinguishing feature of Clench's face - the triangular (point-up) mouthplate. In my opinion, the G2 symbol is clearly a stylized version of the G1 Decepticon symbol. Similarly, there is essentially no similarity between the G2 Autobot symbol and Pyro - the G2 Autobot symbol couldn't much more clearly be Optimus Prime.

Also, why is the CR Combatron insignia under "Beast Era"? `LV 17:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd need to go back to my G2 issues to check, but I question the validity of suggesting that the G2 Decepticon and Cybertronian symbols are any different. (The only distinction shown here is color, anyway) I also question the simplified versions of the symbols used in the cartoon as "symbols" in their own right, but it seems that I've already been outvoted on that count. The only thing I would ask for is some source text, especially for the more obscure symbols. If they're going to be here, we need to know where they come from.--G.B. Blackrock 18:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and I totally disagree with the note that the G1 Decepticon symbol is based on Soundwave. This is a myth that has perpetuated for years, but has no basis in fact.--G.B. Blackrock 18:56, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically, it's based on the Decepticon symbol looking just like Soundwave's toy head. But the note is gone for the moment. --ItsWalky 20:28, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Walky, I know you've got a good eye. Maybe you're seeing something I don't. But that's just it. To me, Soundwave's toy's head looks NOTHING like the Decepticon symbol. I've seen folks say this for years, but I'm just not seeing it....--G.B. Blackrock 22:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/itswalky/soundwavedecepticonsymbol.jpg

There's some obvious correlation here. But nothing I can say with absolute certainty, so the note is down until further notice. But, damn, the Decepticon symbol does look like it was based on an abstraction of Soundwave's noggin. The crest, the horns, the shape of the face, everything. I think Soundwave's cartoon face is distracting you. --ItsWalky 23:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm thinking toy-face. (Thanks for the side-by-side, incidentally). Still, I don't think I'd say the Decepticon symbol is "based on" Soundwave, any more than I'd say that there's a generic similarity of shape. But we're mincing minutia at this point. Thanks for indulging me.--G.B. Blackrock 23:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe Floro Dery mentioned in an interview that the faction symbols were based on abstractions of faces done by another artist. I also put it to you that the Autobot insignia is probably an abstraction of Prowl's toy face. Unfortunately we have no CONCRETE evidence for the sources of the insignias -- other than Dery's comments. --Jhiaxus 11:24, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

There is no "Seacon space pirate" sigil. A comical skull-and-crossbones on the sail does not a sigil make. The toy packaging gives them the same purple insect-head Predacon sigil every other badguy in the series gets. --M Sipher 20:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey, someoen put the Blendtron symbol under Unicron in G1. When was the Blendtron symbol used outside of Neo? -Derik 02:42, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

E-hobby Overcharge X-BoB58 02:50, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

But didn't we decide to default to the line of origin unless there was a commanding reason to use another? Also, we tend not to link things multiple times in the same article, so I see no reason why the Blendtron symbol should show up twice here. Methinks someone's been more than a tad overzealous....--G.B. Blackrock 13:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Article title

I recently moved this article to correct the second capitalized word. However, I am unsure as to whether to move it again and remove the plural. Most article names are singular, even for something like Constructicon. However, one of the points of this article is to describe and show many faction symbols. This sort of implies a plural title to me. So... I'm conflicted. Does anybody have an opinion? --Steve-o 22:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that if this were an article describing the general signifigance of a faction symbol, that might be appropriate. But this is a list of Faction Symbols. The list is inherenly plural, there's like 30 of 'em. 'Faction Symbol,' describing the role and importance of saction symbols in general might be a seperate article- this is a list. -Derik 00:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The 5 Predacon symbols

I want to add the 5 symbols from IDW Beast Wars, but I have a concern. There is no cannonical evidence that they are actually faction symbols. We never see anyone useing them. Right now, the only thing we know about them is that they were used as wall decoration.

Or do we just assume they are faction symbols? --Crockalley 15:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Add them. If we decide they go somewhere else (and I think they probably do, likely the Predacon faction page, or maybe the Predacon sub-group, I dunno...) we'll move them.

Reminder, you can find the rest of... uh.... Ramhorn's partially obscurred symbol in the pencil-sketch previews to Beast Wars #1 that appeared in Infiltration. -Derik 19:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Headstrong. Ramhorn is the Autobot rhino cassette. --KilMichaelMcC 19:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

The exception that prooves the rule. -Derik 20:13, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

....what? --KilMichaelMcC 01:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Miscellaneous issues

Robots in Diguise Commando

When was that term used? What's the difference between a RiD Commando and a RiD Decepticon?

I'm assuing this is a placeholder spot for the Car Robots Destronger symbol, which was a green, upside-down G2 Autobot sigil. - Chris McFeely 10:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Bot/Con Symbols in RiD/UT sections?

Should the Autobot and Decepticon (and Predacon in RiD) symbols also be listed in the Robots in Disguise amd Unicron Trilogy sections? It might be misleading if only unique symbols are listed in those sections. "Are Minicons and Powerlinx the only factions in the Unicron Trilogy?"

Organization

The G1 section seems to be vaguely organized chronologically, but Beast Wars doesn't make sense to me. Since certain chronological listings might be debatable (Ancient Autobot and Ancient Transformer: who comes first, etc), I propose to make each section alphabetical.
Generation 1
Autobot
Autobot (Ancient)
Autobot (The War Within)
Decepticon
etc.

Also, why does G2 get a seperate sction, but Beast Machines does not?

Factions?

There is no basis for calling the five IDW Beast Wars symbols "factions", and the Energon Powerlinx symbols are not factions. But I want to keep a page with all these symbols. Rename article to just "Symbols"? Or maybe that would open it up too much. Just a rambling thought.

Don't want to make any changes without talking about it. Thanks for listening. --Crockalley 01:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC) --Crockalley 01:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fine titled "faction symbols" but also inlcuding symbols that aren't strictly of "factions," with appropriate notations about whether a symbol is a variant of a faction symbol or just something faction symbol-esque that's close enough for inclusion, etc. --KilMichaelMcC 01:20, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

They might move if we get enough other signage and symbols. (We have, for instance, two seperate Cybertronian medical symbols, one Autobot and one Decepticon.)

You mgith argue that if we have a page liek thism we maybe should have a much-clearer 'factions' page that, as Crockcrikey suggests, list which factions appear in which series, makign this page just abouth the SYMBOLS. As it's it's kinda dual-purpose, providing quick bio's about the faction in addition to the symbols and variants themselves. -Derik 01:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

In that case, where should things like, say, Sideways's split-down-the-middle insignia from his packaging and the Maximal/Vehicon blend found on the Beast Changer toy go, if anywhere at all? On the other hand, if it stays here and keeps gathering up symbols that aren't strictly "faction" symbols, somebody ought to add the planet symbols from Cybertron/Galaxy force--Nemesis Primal 22:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Um, guys, you forgot something...

Not to be a nudge, but the normal G1 Decepticon symbol isn't actually pictured in the article anywhere except in the pic that has it inserted in the cobra insignia. Also, a pic of the "three-pointed" cartoon version might help in showing exactly where the difference lies. --Nemesis Primal 22:21, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Anyone going to throw in Dreamwave's alternate Unicron faction symbol? I remember it being used for the MTMTE profiles for Nemesis Prime and maybe Sideways, although I don't have it on hand. I feel that it's required.--MCRG 07:46, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Team Ironhide

Dunno if we want to include this, since it's just an abstraction of Energon Ironhide's head, but there's a good shot of it here. Plus, here and here. --Monzo 11:48, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Planet symbols...

I'm... not really sure about these as "faction symbols". I dunno. --M Sipher 15:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

See the discussion above ("Factions?") for more input on the inclusion of non-faction symbols. --Crockalley 16:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the consensus was- "Wait until we have anough non-faction symbols here to justify splittign them off into their own page." We're getting close, but that'll necessitate a long, unpleasant discussion about what is and isn't a faction symbol. (For instance, I think the IDW Quint symbol is the US Quint faction symbol- just like we have American and Japanese Unicron-allied symbols.) -Derik 17:32, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

IDW Quint symbol? I hope you don't mind me asking where that's shown, out of curiousity. -Tindalos 19:43, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...

...probably just my imagination. --Andrusi 16:45, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

G1 "Cartoon" vs "Comic" symbols

OK, time for an opinion poll: Should there be pix of both the "Cartoon" and "Comic" versions of the G1 Bot & Con symbols? I would say so, and several of you expressed the same opinion in the above discussions. Earlier today I added the cartoon Bot symbol and the comic Con symbol thereby completing the "pairs", but not soon after, the comic versions were removed. I have since replaced them, not to rebuff that editor, but based on the reasoning that if we can have five different colored Powerlinx symbols (?!), why would we not have both distinct variations of the two main symbols. Thoughts, anyone? Evil-yuusha 03:25, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, your cartoon Decepticon symbol doesn't look like the cartoon Decepticon symbol, for one. I'm guessing that was part of the cause for the reversion. -Derik 04:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. There are different Powerlinx symbols depicted because those are all legitimately distinct symbols which were intended to be legitimately distinct symbols, and they all *mean different things*. The Autobot/Decepticon symbols in the cartoon/comic/toyline are all the same symbol but rendered differently due to media format. We are NOT going to have separate entries for every single mis-render of the same symbol design. That's absurd.

As Derik pointed out, what you had uploaded wasn't even the "cartoon versions" of those symbols! Those are just the fancy painted versions thereof that were on toy packages, some Marvel Comics covers, and, of course, the toys. I reworked all of that because it was inaccurate. --ItsWalky 06:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It might be reasonable to include the cartoon version of the Decepticon symbol, since it had the whole triple-point deal going. But as far as I know there's no equivalent variation in the Autobot symbol. And, as stated, the painted Decepticon symbol is NOT the cartoon's variant Decepticon symbol. --Andrusi 14:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Well thank you for pointing out how "absurd" my reasoning is Walky, its certainly more informative than your previous Post Summary of "Argh". I think some clarification may be needed, as there seems to be confusion (very possibly on my part).

This is one of the two images I posted:

Is this what you all would deem "cartoon" or "comic"? Or if neither, why?

File:Symbol decept reg.jpg This is the other image I posted. Cartoon? Comic? Neither?

Seeing as how I posted one version of the Bot symbol and the OTHER version of the Con symbol (the two that were missing at the time), how can I be wrong in both cases?

And just for the record, when I re-posted what I perceive to be the "comic" versions, I replaced (which was what was previously posted), with File:Symbol autobot reg.jpg, simply because I thought it looked nicer. Evil-yuusha 15:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

That first Autobot symbol only appeared on Hasbro packaging from '84 to '86, Japanese packaging, cartoon scene bumpers, and some comic covers. The Decepticon symbol in the cartoon generally had a 3rd spike on the center top piece due to the beveling on the "packaging" symbol being misinterpreted. We're not going to have a picture of every interpertation of every symbol, lest we have a pic of the changes the packaging symbol when through in the G1 line, the different color borders in G2, the slightly different shapes from RID, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Classics, and the movie. Diffrent styles does not equal a new faction symbol. --FortMax 16:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, that white-border Autobot sigil looks blurry. --FortMax 16:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Blurry, eh? I thought it was just my contacts. =) I agree that variation does not a new symbol make, but to me it seemed significant to show the two distinctly different "variations" of these two symbols. (And I'm not talking about "third point crest cartoon" version, or what have you.) The 3-D, glossy, transition-color "deluxe-looking" (if you will) version appearing on packaging, toon bumpers, etc to my knowledge (and i'm sure someone will correct me if im wrong) was never used on an actual figure, nor did characters in the comics and/or cartoon bear sigils with this appearance. It more or less had media-only usage, correct? In contrast, the 2-D, matte, solid-color "plain-looking" version was the type used on the toys, as well as typically being seen on animated/drawn characters.

Was there ever melding of these two styles? A 3-D glossy symbol with solid colors? or a 2-D matte symbol that transitioned in color? If there was, then I humbly retract my previous ramblings and apologize to the community at large (especially Walky, who seems keen on shooting down whatever i do anyway. And yes, I am aware of the differences between the powerlink colors, but I think my point has validity nonetheless). In any event i do admit to being confused as to exaclty what the "cartoon version" of the Con symbol was in reference to (thank you FortMax). =P

But if I am correct in saying that there is a measure of deliniation between these two styles, and not just a simple case of "variation" (which is essentially what the "three point crest" is, and you guys seem to think that's worthy of mention), then at the very least I think they should be shown as a footnote of some type to the page, perhaps following the Unused symbols. Evil-yuusha 18:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

All of the G1 merchandise that had a symbol not taken from boxart used the logo symbols. The one exception is the marvel US comics, but that was due to the low-tech printing methods used. Plus, whatever the border shaps or solidness of the color, it's still recognizable as the Autobot symbol. The only time we would need a cartoon version on this page is when said sigil only appears in the cartoon. Plus, the only fictional apperences of the package style sigils (that I know of) are in scene bumpers, commercial bumpers, and titles, none of which actually happen in-universe, and the solid colored symbol appeared on the toys before the cartoon or comics were released.

An example of the cartoon Decepticon symbol might be a good idea though. --FortMax 20:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

TWW Predacon and LSC symbols

Did the TWW Predacons (Starscream's group) or the Lightning Strike Coalition (Grimlocks group) have their own faction symbols? --FortMax 20:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of. And they both continue to wear their respective Con/Bot logos on themselves. --ItsWalky 00:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Although I'm pretty sure they've started being the standard symbols instead of the TWW ones by then. -LV 01:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Transformer Symbol

Ok, whoever called shannanigans, explain your objection... I admit It's been a long time since I've looked at some DW issues but the Anceint unified faction bit seems to jive with what I remember being said. Anyone who's looked at things recently clarrify? --ZacWilliam 22:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The ancient faction symbol appeared on the Vector Sigma room, the Archives (IIRC) and the golden Disk room on Paradron. It's ancient, and it has nothing to do with Shockwave. Shockwave welded a blank plate over his faction symbol- he didn't create a new hybrid symbol. There was no Hybrid symbol for Shockwav'es reign on Cybertron.

So in short, the nature of my objection is... it's wrong. -Derik 22:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

So, uh... fix it? Why call shenanigans instead? --Steve-o 02:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

'cuz I didn't want to be the one to fix it, being next-deep in other edits at the time. -Derik 02:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Change page title to "Insignia"?

This page hasn't really ever been limited to faction symbols, so I think a move is in order. Anyone disagree? Chip 02:37, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Disagree, because how would I ever find it then? -Derik 02:48, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

DEAR GOD, CHANGE IT NOW. --M Sipher 02:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

:~( -Derik 02:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

It would unfortunately redirect. Chip 03:03, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Decepticon and BWII Seacons

"Ancient Decepticon" has been here a long time with no symbol. Does an ancient Decepticon symbol exist? Also, yea or nay on BWII Seacons symbol? (Unless someone can find a better image of that flag, it's moot anyway.) --Crockalley 20:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I think someone had a seacon skull up at one point- or at least there was a discussion about its variations...

I've removed ancient decepticon- AFAIK, that's a relic of an unofficial reprolabel set that decided Shockwave's funky symbol was the counterpart of the ancient Autobot symbol- in defiance of all context. -Derik 20:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

That picture isn't even the right symbol

From the BWII movie

http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/9069/spacepirateseaconsignalao1.jpg

From Teletraan I: The Transformers Wiki, a Wikia wiki.