Talk:Sentinel Prime (G1)

I think that statement wans't true outside of Dreamwave continuity Walky. Prime-as-leeader-of-the-Autobots didnt' come about until well after SP's death. 'There Shall Come a Leader' and all that said the Autobots were not only led by the High Council, but they also commanded the military. Optimus Prime beign named Commander-in-Chief of the army was the turning point of the war. -Derik 01:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Isn't there a Marvel UK panel of Sentinel Prime passing the Matrix to Optimus? That's the only full-body shot we've ever got of him. --ItsWalky 01:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

...you mean like the one I uploaded 2 minutes ago? -Derik 01:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

What I'm saying is he looks like he's Autobot leader to me. --ItsWalky 01:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

And I woudl agree with you. He definatelyt was in The War Within. But in Marvel's backstory (at least UK) Optimus Prime was the first TF made leader of the Autobots, which had previously been led by the High Council (one of the reasons for their ineffectiveness.) And that's jsut the army. NEITHER had been civil leader. (Well, Prime possibly was followign Xaaron's death.)

I'd argue that Sentinel Prime was still Autobot leader even though he had a council to answer to. Is UT Optimus Prime not Autobot leader? He has a council of ancients who can veto him as well. --ItsWalky 01:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Good point, and well said. -Derik 02:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

There's a fairly lengthy list of Sentinel Prime's abilities and weapons in the Keepers Trilogy. I plan to put that in his main section since he's such a ciper. Any objections? -Derik 01:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

...and why was he unsuccessful? because he died? Optimus Prime died, does that make him unsuccessful? What about the Primes that reigned during times of peace? -Derik 02:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Because everyone said he was. Everyone specifically said Sentinel Prime (and all the others) did a piss-poor job. Megatron slaughtered them. It was only Optimus who did a good job. --ItsWalky 02:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Really, I could have sworn that Sentinel Prime was Prime before war started, and thus Megatron had slaughtered, at max, one Prime before Optimus. When did {{Template:Tooltip|everyone|Was it Bluestreak? He says lots of things...}} say this? -Derik 02:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

A fairly big point is made that none of the previous Primes were military leaders. They were without "clout," as Grimlock put it. They just weren't very good, and it was Optimus who turned the tide of the war. Apparently archivists are great military leaders or something. --ItsWalky 02:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

In Dreamwave continuity, there were only 2 more primes prior to Sentinel Prime (not counting Prima) at leat one of which was not deactivated, but instead 'left for parts unknown.'

Your very argument, that Sentinel Prime did a 'piss poor job' adnd wasn't suited to beign a war leader lends itself to the belief he'd been appointed PRIOR to the begining of the war. -Derik 03:48, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, my belief was that the Matrix just chose shitty Primes. (Which works with what you say the Keepers Trilogy may have been suggesting.) --ItsWalky 03:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

How does 'Megatron chose Optronix to be a shitty Prime' translate into 'the matrix chose him to be a shitty Prime'?

And it's not suggesting- it's pretty explicit.

"Sentinel Prime," Optimus choaked. He was looking up into the face of his predecessor, and he could only imagine the Autobot's shame and disgust.

"I'm not a ghost," Sentinel Prime said. "I'm as real as anything else in your mind, and to your senses. The Matrix within you chose this form to communicate with you."

Optimus almost laughed. This wasn't happening. It couldn't be happening; "Not the best time..."

"You were right to think that an error was made. It never should have been you, Optimus. You should have been free to choose the life you would lead. This burden of leadership had been meant for another. It is only after many years of detailed self-diagnostic routines that the flaw has become apparent."

"No..."

"You need to hear this, Optimus," Sentinel Prime said calmly. "You were chosen to fail. Chosen by Megatron himself."

Now, you CAN attempt to say that the Matrix is basically... messign with him. Tryign to shock him back to awareness. (Prime had been deep in a crisis of confidence and badly wounded, was basically considering 'letting go' and letting Megatron finish him off.) The next thing SP says is that- just because Prime had been chosen to fail doesnt' mean he should let Megatron kill him here and now.

The problem with this argument is that Prime is obesessed with this idea that he wasn't meant to be Prime for all of book 1. And when he finally overcomes this confidence, he does not conclude the message was false, he jsut concludes it doesnt' matter if hr wwas the wrong choice 'at the time,' he's grown into someoen who can fill the role.

Besides, I dont' think the Matrix would encourage Prime to pass the Matrix on to someone else if it was just messing with him, which it did.

It may not have been what Furman meant when he wrote 'rigged the game,' but that's probably what Ciencin was basing it off of. But then, Ciencin probably based the Keepers off a text refernece to the old man from US#60 in the War Within. -Derik 04:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Rigged the game

Again, Derik, you read weird things into pretty straight-forward dialogue. I'm pretty sure the only game he means is battle. War is his, he invented it, yadda yadda yadda. It's common Furman-style rhetoric. I don't really see the conspiracy theory, and I'm puzzled even further how Megatron could rig the Matrix to choose Optromix, especially since he spends the whole first miniseries trying to get the dang thing. If he can manipulate it that deeply from afar, why the hell bother? --ItsWalky 02:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it's stupid too. But according the Keepers Trilogy, the claim is real. Or rather, after all the smoke and confusion over the robotic Sentinel Prime underiming Optimus Prime's confidence settled- it emerged that the original vision, which claimed Megatron has chosen Optronix to be Prime in order that he would fail (and thus Megatron would get the Matrix) actually WAS a real vision projected by the Matrix.

So... yeah. You can delete the italicised claim if it suits you, bit it at least fits that otherwise rather ODD bit fromt he books, and makes it seem more like he just pushed them to choose the records-clerk. "He'll be easy." -Derik 03:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Umlauts are Cool

NEW DISCUSSION TOPIC!

do you think that the evil clone of Hot Rod, as one of Megatron's 'diabolical clones' used diacriticals to distinguish himself from the original?

You know, like: Höt Röd ?

Was there some point when characters discussed Sentinal Prime and said he had 'a good head on his shoulders- well, he USED to?' Or am I totally remembering somethign that never happened? -Derik 07:08, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"Sentinel Prime, he had his head screwed on." "Not at the end, he didn't."

So, uh, is it me, or did Stephen Colbert write the italicized portion of the profile? --ItsWalky 16:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but WHERE was that from? I'm blanking, and I dont' have time to sit down and re-read all of TWW to find it, I just got Angelig Days v1, and I have a date with Kowaru slashiness!

I like to cap off my character biographies with something that sums them up. I can't HELP that this one was inherently hilarious. Prime learnign to trust his heart but USE his fists was the entire damn point of The War Within.

I should go back and cut down that top entry, I bet you could cut 40% of the text withotu losing any meaning. It was a bitch to get it all structured, but once in place, it could stand to be trimemd back... -Derik 00:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Not Dead Yet

Acoording to Alex Milne (the artist) Sentinel didn't die at the end of Megatron Origin. But like much of his artwork it is kinda hard to tell.

http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=2612

Here is the quote ....."with sentinel prime, he's different then nova, and optimus. he's a brute. also, he's not dead yet. he won't die for a while still. but he has been beaten badly."

Disambigs

The number of disambig templates at the top of this article is really ridiculous. We should have sort of statute of limitations. --ItsWalky 03:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we could easily limit this one to just a {{disambig3|Sentinel}}--Rosicrucian^Talk 03:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Just make it a "Sentinel Prime" disambig. The others are fairly superfluous. -- Dark T Zeratul 09:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"Precisely aimed, pointblank shot"

Unless this description of Sentinel's armor is a direct quote from someplace, I'd suggest rewording it. I don't think it's logically possible to have a non-precisely-aimed point-blank shot.

It's definitely possible, especially during a close-quarters struggle. --Thylacine 2000 22:50, 20 December 2009 (EST)

Wouldn't it actually be an accurately aimed shot? Shots hitting close to each other are precise, shots hitting the target are accurate. Khajidha 22:58, 20 December 2009 (EST)

Sentinel Major

I really think, when we get around to adding this info, it should go on Sentinel Prime (G1). They are analogous characters within the same continuity family. --ItsWalky 12:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

Seconded. They're using 'Major' as a rank here, not a name.--Jimsorenson 12:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

Is 'major' being a rank explicitly stated? There's no physical resemblance between any G1 version of Sentinel Prime and this fellow. -- Ayellowbirds 13:00, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

I had been pondering this myself, and I'm not entirely sure it would go on here either, seeing as how there's a good chance that Sentinel is never a Prime in the Wings of Honor continuity.

I actually do agree with the assertion that Sentinel Major is probably the WoH equivalent of Sentinel Prime, mind you. It just, well, seems odd to put him on a Sentinel Prime article if it ends up he's never a Prime.

(I guess we could just add on some alternate names in the header and make some Notes, but I'm always on the side of trying for obvious clarity first.)

Although Ayellowbirds does have a point. It's not as if any of the other WoH Autobot leaders we've seen so far have had ranks added to their names. --Jeysie 13:19, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

The specifics of the name is a non-issue, since these pages are character-entity based. IDW Tankor is probably never gonna be called Octane, but he still goes on Octane's page. --ItsWalky 13:23, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

They don't resemble each other, either, and there's no evidence yet that one is intended to be analogous to the other. Tankor/Octane were flatly stated to be 'the same', as is Fracture/Crasher, and any number of others. I don't see cause to assume that Sentinel Major is meant to be the same character as G1 Sentinel Prime (he is pretty obviously based on Animated Sentinel Prime, who I'd argue is completely distinct), and I would think that keeping them distinct until they're stated to be the same would be ideal. Ayellowbirds 13:31, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

Octane/Tankor is obviously intended to be the exact same guy and only has different names due to out-of-universe concerns unrelated to the fiction, so that is irrelevant.

Meanwhile, here we have a "Sentinel" who will never be Prime because in-universe he likely won't attain that rank. So having him at a "Sentinel Prime" page is arguably strange.

Now, if this article was at just "Sentinel", then I'd be perfectly fine with it because there'd be no inherent assumption in the title that we're talking about a guy who is a "Prime".

There's also the fact that, like I said, do we know "Major" is actually a rank? 'Clash and Metalhawk don't have ranks of any kind, and neither does Magnum, and they all seem to have more status in the hierarchy than someone who at the moment seems like he's just Magnum's attache/bodyguard.

Basically, it seems more clear and simple to just give the guy his own page. --Jeysie 14:32, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

ItsWalky!- Aside from sharing the name 'Sentinel', I don't see any clear indication that they're meant to be analogous to each other. Ayellowbirds 13:02, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

I made this article, because my knee-jerk reaction was to go on the wiki and create as complete an article as was possible... and then it occurred to me to check the policy page. I decided that setting up the page as a place-holding stub might work to prevent other people from making the same mistake I almost did, by having an existing page that links to the policy. It's not the loveliest article, but I don't think it needs to be, just yet. Of course, if I've misunderstood the relevant policies, y'all can go ahead and delete it. -- Ayellowbirds 12:57, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

I think the main problem is that sometimes even putting up a article that's the minimum for a placeholder can still be too much of a spoiler, so we usually just hold off. I don't think it's a big deal in this case, but as a general thing... --Jeysie 13:19, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

"Is 'major' being a rank explicitly stated?" Things do NOT always need to be explicitly stated. We have brains and intelligence, we're allowed to use both deductive and even inductive reasoning to make our conclusions. Major has often been used as a rank in Transformers, and Prime these days is almost ALWAYS used as a rank. Whether or not this Sentinel ever explicitly achieves that rank, he's still basically just a new iteration of the same character. As for the physical resemblance to Animated, I think that's to be expected. Sentinel Prime has always been a non-entity in the past, with a non-memorable design. Animated has changed that ... I'd frankly be shocked if future versions of Sentinel Prime (and his ilk) DIDN'T start to drift towards Animated.--Jimsorenson 13:36, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

I'm with Jim. As far as I'm concerned, this is just the G1 cartoon's Sentinel Prime. He may have never become Sentinel Prime, but he's still the same guy. --ItsWalky 13:49, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

When these days has Prime been used as a rank in G1? Not arguing, just genuinely curious- I thought that was exclusive to Animated, and that Hasbro was fiercely protective of using the title, otherwise. Ayellowbirds 13:47, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

"Prime" was used as a rank instead of a name the very moment "Rodimus Prime" existed. The cartoon CREATED using "Prime" to indicate rank. The Marvel comic took it further and used "Prime" as a rank for the guys that preceded Optimus as well. --ItsWalky 13:50, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

See, for me, the use in the cartoon and comics (and Hasbro's later use in stories stemming from G1) is more along the lines of a title like 'saint'. It denotes authority, but also a wholly or semi-spiritual mandate; in contrast, Optimus has the 'rank' of Commander, denoted by his function. That said, I think it starts to become a matter of semantics. -- Ayellowbirds 14:13, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

I think I miscommunicated my argument somewhere along the lines. Simply put: there's more factors working AGAINST the assumption that Timelines Sentinel Major is G1 Sentinel Prime, rather than in favor of it. If you want to talk in terms of Major/Prime being ranks, doesn't G1 canon tend to establish that Sentinel was a Prime before Optimus was rebuilt from Optronix/Orion? Evidence suggests that this takes place after that, so he'd have to have dropped in rank, unless this is a wildly divergent timeline. As for appearance, G1 Sentinel Prime has pretty consistently been a mass of yellow and orange, at the very least- Sentinel Major is mostly blue. I'm not saying any one of these factors works against the assumption... I'm saying all of them together do so. Can you point out evidence in favor of your assertions? -- Ayellowbirds 13:47, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

Sentinel could *never* become Sentinel Prime in this timeline and still be the same guy. Was Sentinel a Prime before Orion Pax became Optimus Prime? It doesn't matter. The Dinobots were either part of the Ark crew from Cybertron over 4 million years ago or they were built on Earth in 1985. These are very timeline-conflicty things, and yet they're all on the same pages. --ItsWalky 13:55, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

So why the assertion that Sentinel Major is Sentinel Prime? There's no evidence in favor of that being the intent, and numerous factors working against it. The Dinobots in the different continuities (and continuity conflicts in a given story) are still plainly represented as being the Dinobots, are stated by the creators of those continuities to be the Dinobots, and have an appearance that is consistent with previous versions. My arguments against Sentinel Major being Sentinel Prime aren't airtight, but nobody has given any argument in favor of them being the same. The burden of proof is on your side. -- Ayellowbirds 14:08, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

It isn't that complicated. He's the G1 version of Sentinel, so his information goes on the G1 Sentinel page. --ItsWalky 14:11, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

Has it been stated anywhere that that's the case? It sounds to me like you're saying that the evidence that he's meant to be the same as Sentinel Prime is that he shares one part of his name in common with the Prime... which is about as weak an argument as saying that you and I are the same person because we have similar first names. I don't see why there can't be multiple distinct Cybertronians with the same name existing in the same continuity. Ayellowbirds 14:20, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

The very fact that he looks pretty much identical to Sentinel Prime (Animated) is extremely strong evidence that he is intended to, in fact, BE Sentinel Prime. We've always maintained that, absence evidence to the contrary, characters in Animated that look like their G1 counterpart ARE that character (for instance, Spittor (Animated) is never referred to by name, but no one argues that maybe it's not Spittor) and I see no reason why we can't use the converse argument here.

In other words, as I said before, we have the capability of using reason, it behooves us to use it. Let's not be intentionally daft. This tendency to stick our fingers in our ears and thrust our heads under the sand is counterproductive to genuinely cataloging knowledge and enhancing our understanding of the beauty that is Transformers. --Jimsorenson 14:54, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

Okay, we can say that "characters in Animated that look like their G1 counterpart ARE that character", so we can say that G1 Sentinel Major is Animated Sentinel Prime... but neither of them look like any version of the G1 Sentinel Prime. There is a demonstrable link between the Animated character and the G1 character in Wings of Honor, but I don't see any link aside from the name between the Animated character and the earlier G1 character. This is like saying Jetstorm is Jetstorm- except there, we at least have some aspects of appearance in common.

As for Spittor, there's authorial intent and other sources outside the cartoon itself to establish that they're meant to be 'the same'. Nothing like that in this case, so far as I've seen. -- Ayellowbirds 15:33, 7 April 2010 (EDT)

Let's imagine, for the sake of argument, that FP puts out a new story, set in a "what if?" universe where, during the events of War Dawn, Orion Pax dies without having ever become Optimus Prime, and Dion goes on to become the leader of the Autobots. This version of Orion would still be a legitimate Optimus Prime (G1). --Andrusi