Talk:The Transformers (franchise)

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So I'm looking over the various storybook stuff that Steve-o has, and finding that we don't have much of it, and what we do have is pretty much lost in the void. We need to tie all this stuff together. The Franchise Navigation box should include some kind of link to it -- even if that means we have to split our current books page into four or five pieces, by franchise. Each series of books should have its own navigation chain, leading back to the publisher's page. So, something like this:Franchise nav box --> Books --> Publishers --> Individual titles Objections to the splitting-up-the-books page? (heck, it should be a category anyway, as opposed to a multi-franchise list.) -- Repowers 20:48, 4 December 2008 (EST)

Nope. Go for it. I've been thinking for a while that once you factor in all the Armada stuff... man, that's a lot of books. --M Sipher 04:55, 5 December 2008 (EST)

Move

As Thomas Jefferson once said, "Buggery is the Genus, of which Sodomy and Bestiality are the species."In that hierarchical mind, "Generation 1" isn't a franchise-- or at least not as we're treating it. It's an umbrella franchise, just like the Unicron Trilogy or the live-action film series. I think that, in the long term, it'll make our lives easier if our treatment reflects that. -DerikTalk 11:39, 11 February 2009 (EST)

  • Generation 1 (umbrella franchise)
  • The Transformers (franchise)
  • Headmasters
  • Masterforce
  • etc...
  • Generation 2
The Japanese stuff, certainly. All of the toys in those were sold with the plain "Transformers" label. G2, I'm not so sure, but if you feel so…. (What about Machine Wars?) —Interrobang 11:53, 11 February 2009 (EST)
I think you're right that we need to address the far-reaching uses of the term "Generation 1", but I disagree with your proposal for a few reasons:
  1. "The Transformers" is an outdated term for the pre-G2 franchise. Yes, when it came out, that was its name, but the moment "Generation 2" was created, "The Transformers" went from being a specific franchise to being the name of the overall brand. Since then, countless official sources have confirmed the use of "Generation 1" to mean "pre-G2". Generations and The Ultimate Guide are two I can cite immediately, and I'm sure there are far, far more. (For another example of a later name superseding a previous one, note that we don't call Universe: Featuring the Wreckers "The Wreckers" or "Enter the Wreckers".)
  2. What you're calling "Generation 1 (umbrella franchise)" is actually just a continuity family, as is the Unicron Trilogy. The 2008 Universe is a true umbrella franchise, where Hasbro is actively using a new brand to subsume pre-existing ones. The big-tent G1 and the UT are both more artificial constructs on our part to classify storytelling trends.
  3. If we do create "The Transformers (franchise)" at all, it should redirect to (or even replace) Transformers brand. Making them two different things is confusing. I also believe that we SHOULD have a Generation 1 continuity family to cover all of the far-reaching uses of the term. Generation 1 (franchise) can remain as it is, and all of the bases are covered with a minimum of confusion.
How does that sound?
- Jackpot 23:16, 29 March 2009 (EDT)
If I may throw in my two cents, most of the fandom refers to "The Transformers" as "G1" or "Generation 1". In fact, the only time I've heard anyone call it "The Transformers" is when they specifically mean the G1 cartoon. I think that "The Transformers" stuff should re-direct to the "Generation 1" equivalent.
- Monty Prime
The whole "G1" thing needs some sorting out. Part of what we have to decide is if the wiki is going to consider the Japanese series (Headmasters, Maserforce, etc.) as "franchises." I just found out that they technically aren't because the toys were all released simply as "The Transformers." But we have franchise pages for them. (see The Headmasters (franchise), Super-God Masterforce (franchise), etc). I happen to think it would be extremely useful to consider them franchises even if it is fudging Transformers history a bit. They have their own names and logos and whatnot, so I think it depends a little on what you consider a "franchise" to be. Is it just how the toys are packaged?
I agree with Derik's grouping except I wouldn't group G2 under the G1 umbrella franchise. the G1 continuity family, yes.
Finally, clearing this up would help finalize another open issue the wiki has. - Starfield 15:01, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
"Part of what we have to decide is if the wiki is going to consider the Japanese series (Headmasters, Maserforce, etc.) as "franchises." I just found out that they technically aren't because the toys were all released simply as "The Transformers.""
Uh... no, that's not true. I've got Japanese packaging, and it's got the individual franchise logos on them. --M Sipher 15:35, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
Oops. I was thinking of Beast Wars II and Neo. Carry on... - Starfield 16:08, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
most of the fandom refers to "The Transformers" as "G1" or "Generation 1".
"Generation 1" is not the name of a franchise, or a television show, or a toyline, or a cartoon. Those things were named "The Transformers", and there's really no valid reason to call them anything else. Just because it makes them a little tougher to disambiguate is not enough reason to call them something that isn't their name.
It hardly seems necessary to point out how terrible an idea it is to rename something from its official name based on "what the fandom does". -- Repowers 15:51, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
Please see my point #1 above. There are tons of official sources telling us that what was once called "The Transformers" is now retroactively "Generation 1". And if you don't think that's a valid interpretation, then please explain what actually IS happening when the back of a Universe package says "GENERATION 1: The Epic Original". Is Hasbro somehow LYING about the validity of the term as a substitute for what was once just "The Transformers"?
(And, to nip a tangent in the bud, I will clarify now that I'm only making this argument in relation to the G1 franchise, not the individual expressions of it (like the cartoon, comics, etc.) The official sources I'm using as evidence all use the term to refer to the franchise as a whole, as contrasted with G2, MW, BW, etc.)
- Jackpot 16:37, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
I'm only making this argument in relation to the G1 *franchise*, not the individual expressions of it (like the cartoon, comics, etc.)
Ah, okay, good. Those are the things I'm fervently against renaming. "Franchise" and "continuity family" are such abstract, umbrella, exists-mainly-because-we-need-to-call-it-*something* terms that I'm a lot less concerned with what we name them. -- Repowers 16:42, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
Well, you started your things-G1-is-not list with "franchise," and that's also what this Talk page is ABOUT, so I couldn't help but think you were railing against it. Because you were. Glad to get that cleared up now.
(Also, for the record, I am in favor of retitling the 'toon, comic, etc., pages as "Generation 1 (____)", but in the absence of both official evidence and public support, I'm no longer actively pushing for it.)
- Jackpot 16:54, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
Even so, Jackpot, there are still different senses for "G1" that have to be clarified. "G1" meaning "Pre-G2" includes The Headmasters, Masterforce, etc. which are franchises of their own. What would you call the franchise that is "Pre G2" but minus those Japanese franchises? I think the only way to refer to that part is "The Transformers (franchise)", as outlined above. - Starfield 17:00, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
I don't see how that clarifies anything, honestly. It's trading one ambiguity for another. I still hold that the term "The Transformers (franchise)" is too conceptually similar to "Transformers brand" for the two not to be treated synonymously. The way this page currently deals with the J-franchise issue is, I think, perfectly fine. We don't actually need what you're calling "The Transformers (franchise)" to be given any special treatment. Even if we agreed to your schema, what would we do with it? Would we make a separate page just for the bits of G1 that Hasbro and Takara shared? I'm not sure why we would. - Jackpot 17:14, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
I couldn't help but think you were railing against it. Because you were.
Bah! I reserve the right to change my mind randomly and without warning or internally consistent logic. Respect your elders, dammit! Your doddering, senile elders.
I probably shouldn't have included "franchise" in there. Insofar as we've defined it on the wiki, the toyline/cartoon/comics/merchandise amalgamation that ran in the States from 1984 to 1991 is "The Transformers", and I'd rather see it remain under that name. Still, a well-constructed argument could change my mind there, insofar as we do need some kind of umbrella that encloses the Stateside toyline & etc, AND the Japanese and European stuff -- and then a larger umbrella that further includes the Beast Era, G2, and all the neo-G1 stuff that's come out. That larger umbrella (which we currently call the "Generation 1 continuity family", I guess) is, to my mind, what should be called Generation 1, but I'm mildly open to persuasion. (forgive me if I'm being redundant; I only entered this discussion to make sure that the Marvel comic doesn't wind up getting moved back to G1 (comic), and haven't absorbed all the arguments yet...) -- Repowers 17:22, 12 May 2009 (EDT)
Heh, fair enough. For what it's worth, the official source that best represents my position is Generations, which documents all of the TFs across the world from 1984 to 1992 as "Generation 1". That's the starting point for what we currently call the "G1 franchise" (as described on this page), and it's the basis of our disambig-parentheticals (as exhaustively argued in some discusssions that have yet to be re-uploaded post-crash). Some post-1992 stuff also falls under this franchise (like the latter-day G1 comics, the e-Hobby exclusives, etc.), but anything with a new toyline-name (Alternators, Classics, etc.) is considered to be in a different franchise. As you say, the characters and storylines transcend franchise, so we therefore have to have a larger framework that encompasses Classics, the Beast Era, Binaltech, etc., and that's what we call the "G1 continuity family". It's unfortunate that the term "G1" has to do double duty there, since the distinction between the G1 franchise and G1 continuity family isn't always clear to people. But I think it would be more absurd to try to replace the use of "G1 franchise" with "The Transformers"; it would be like Star Wars fans trying to do away with "A New Hope". And in a practical sense, it would confound our current, well-argued disambig-parenthetical schema.
What I would love to see, in the end, is a new term for "G1 continuity family", a la "Unicron Trilogy". I like "G1 / Beast Era", but it's clumsy, and I've never seen any other options. Plus the term "G1 continuity family" does make basic sense: it means, "This continuity family originated with the franchise called G1, though it doesn't stop there," in the same way that "Marvel G1 comic continuity" means, "This continuity began with the Marvel comic, though it was continued by other companies."
- Jackpot 18:42, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
I'm with Jackpot, pretty much. While I don't have a problem with naming the Marvel Comics/Cartoon/etc. "The Transformers", I think the actual original franchise/continuity family should stay as "Generation 1". There's official precedent for it, and plus there's times when you have to be willing to sacrifice a little bit of pedantry in favor of being clear.
Because, having "The Transformers" be the name of a specific franchise and continuity family would be insanely confusing, when technically "The Transformers" is the also name of the entire general franchise and continuity family that encompasses everything. Having two different concepts named "Generation 1" is already confusing enough without making it ten times worse.
I thus humbly invoke "Ignore all standards" here. --Jeysie 20:11, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
How about "The Transformers (G1 franchise)"? My main motivation is cleaning up the franchise navigation. On The Headmasters (franchise) page the "previous franchise" button is to "Generation 1 (franchise)," which doesn't make sense. - Starfield 20:20, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
Fixed; thank you for giving a specific example. With F!SRLTF and 2010 now incorporated into the navigation, I don't see the need for a new page. - Jackpot 22:39, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
Cool. That part is neat and clean now. That takes care of my major objections, though I still like "The Transformers" as a personal preference. - Starfield 23:15, 13 May 2009 (EDT)
Okay, you know where I said in reference to the so-called "Generation 1 continuity family," "I like 'G1 / Beast Era', but it's clumsy, and I've never seen any other options"? Well, it just hit me that there IS another option: the universal stream name "Primax". It's obscure beyond belief, but it sure won't get confused with "Generation 1 (franchise)". How does that sound? Is the obscurity a small enough price to pay for the lack of overlapping terminology? - Jackpot 04:53, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

Video games

There are a few G1 video games, but it appears that you cannot get to any of those games' pages from here. That seems odd. Perhaps another "primary components" bullet should point to Video_games#Generation_1_games? Else we could include them in The Transformers (merchandise), but it seems like they should get slightly higher billing than bedding and soapdishes. --GrantB 14:39, 25 July 2011 (EDT)

There is a bullet point for Video Games in the franchise nav-box in the upper right corner. I've never been sure about those "primary components" lists as they seem to overlap too much with the nav-boxes. And the definition of primary is debatable; I would only list the toyline, cartoon and Marvel comic as primary in the original G1 era (with DW and IDW comics becoming primary in the retro G1 era). --Khajidha 14:55, 25 July 2011 (EDT)
Pff! I completely overlooked the franchise nav-box. I think I agree with you that the "primary components" list is dumb and redundant, yet it draws your eye in a way that the nav-box doesn't. (Not to mention: it's insane that the contents of the merchandise page could be considered "primary" in any respect.) --GrantB 15:05, 25 July 2011 (EDT)
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