Talk:Triple Combination: Transformers Go! (franchise)

"Combination Cubed"? Is this really the best translation? --Sabrblade 00:49, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

Talk:Combination Cubed: Transformers Go! (toyline). The title is literally "Third Power Combination". And the gimmick of the exclusive toys is that they can form any one of three parts in a larger robot (so 3³ different combinations in a team, including repeat characters). Mimi 01:10, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

I only made the suggestion! *runs away* --Lonegamer78 01:15, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

It's just, the "Combination" part coming first makes it sounds like "Gattai" is the first word instead of the second. And "cubed" has connotations of the squarish variety that may confuse folks at first glance. Granted, "Third Power Combination" isn't much better either, but I think it might be the safer one. --Sabrblade 01:33, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

Personally, I think it should be rendered "Combination³ Transformers Go!", since that's evidently what they mean by "Third Power Combination". "³ Combination" is also a possibility if we want it to look completely terrible. -LV 01:41, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

English and Japanese sometimes just aren't going to have the same word order or logic. But I'm okay with whatever consensus decides (I ain't going back to change all the links again, though). Mimi 02:01, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

For what it's worth, I comprehended the meaning of the title as soon as I saw it on the recent changes page and think it's the punchiest, mostly "title-y" option, but if we're contemplating alternatives, I'd certainly suggest "Combination to the Third Power" would be better than "Third Power Combination". - Chris McFeely 04:52, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

"Combination to the Third Power" feels a bit long, on the flipside. --Lonegamer78 06:15, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

Another inquiry. When it comes to the word "Gattai", why do we tend to default to "Combination"? Not that I object to it, but what about other suggestions like "Fusion" or "Union"? (the former of which has been used on Transformers before, like in RiD with Rail Racer's "Bullet Fusion!" phrase) If "Third Power Combination" might feel like a mouthful, why not opt for a simpler term than "Combination"? "Third Power Fusion", maybe? --Sabrblade 09:24, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

Probably because of Operation Combination.--Rosicrucian^Talk 09:41, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

You were talking about word order above, but "Third Power X" doesn't make sense in English - as McFeely intimated, it's always "X to the Third Power". In translation, some things just have to give.

[I've got sympathy for LV's position though - "X³" is a more natural way of writing it than "X Cubed", and the whole diacritic thing shows that Wiki policy isn't to make things easy to type! Even if the alliteration is tempting.] - SanityOrMadness 09:54, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

And another thing. Why is the colon placed before the "Transformers" part instead of after? I mean, we don't write FSRLTF as "Fight! Super Robot Lifeform: Transformers" or Beast Wars Neo/Metals/Returns as "Super Lifeform: Transformers Beast Wars Neo/Metals/Returns". The "Sanjou Gattai" part doesn't look formatted any differently from how the "(Tatakae!) Chou (Robot) Seimeitai" in other series titles are. Why not have it as "(English translation of Sanjou Gattai) Transformers: Go!" with the colon after the "Transformers" like we normally (not "always" but "usually") do?
Also, that leads me to another question (yes, I have an inquisitive mind, sue me). With all the talk of how "Sanjou Gattai" can be translated properly into English, how different would "Sanjou Gattai Toransufōmā" be translated when the third word is factored in to make all three into one entity? Meaning, would the inclusion of the "Transformers" part into the preceding phrase affect its overall translation in any manner? --Sabrblade 21:49, 27 April 2013 (EDT)

In other words, can we have the title rendered with the colon between the "Transformers" and the "Go!" to better match up with how this Wiki handles its use of colons in the series titles?

And, are we going to stick with "Combination Cubed" or go with "Combination³"? --Sabrblade 01:24, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

I think you're making this out to be a bigger deal than it actually is. The title is fine and set up according to how the logo separates the two parts. Mimi 04:11, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

The setup is no different from how the logos of Victory, Zone's manga, Return of Convoy/The Battlestars's manga, Operation Combination, Beast Wars Neo, Beast Wars Metals, and Beast Wars Returns are set up, and we render the English translations of all those titles in the same manner. All I'm asking for is some consistency between this title and the other titles. --Sabrblade 12:58, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

I think "Combination Cubed" is both less ambiguous and easier to type than "Combination³". --abates 16:52, 1 May 2013 (EDT)

Renaming: Part Deux!

After seeing more and more info on the series, I really think "Sanjō Gattai" needs a better translation than the Wiki's current choice of "Combination Cubed". Specifically, I really think the "Combination" part should go second, as it feels like the subject to the "Sanjō" part acting as a descriptor. Like, what kind of "Gattai" is it? Why, a "Sanjō Gattai", of course. It's like how "Chōjin Gattai" from Masterforce has "Chōjin" describing what kind of Gattai a "Chōjin Gattai" is.
And based on the titles of each Sanjō Gattai, from TakaraTomy's website, I'd strongly suggest a translation that puts "Combination" second since each of these titles wouldn't make as much sense in English otherwise. Like, Go-Kenzan is the "Waza no Sanjō Gattai", which if we translated it with "Combination" coming first like we currently have it as, it would read as him being the "Combination Cubed of Skill", which sounds more wonky than him being the "Cubed Combination of Skill" does, since "Combination" is the subject being described, and something being described as a thing "Cubed of Skill" sounds weirder than it being just being a thing "of Skill".
Others examples: Go-Jinbu is the "Hayasa no Sanjō Gattai" (Sanjō Gattai of Speed), Go-Gan'ō is the "Chikara no Sanjō Gattai" (Sanjō Gattai of Power), and Go-Gekisō is the "Riku no Sanjō Gattai" (Sanjō Gattai of Land/the Land). These are all combinations "of Speed/Power/Land", rather than combinations "Cubed of Speed/Power/Land".
This wonkiness also occurs with the other accurate translation that we didn't go for: "Combination to the Third Power". Using this one, we get the titles read as "Combination to the Third Power of Skill/Speed/Power/Land", which I think speaks for itself by how much worse reading something as being "to the Third Power of X" sounds when the something in question is the combination and not the power.
Thus, I'd strongly recommend that the "Combination" part be put second instead of first, i.e. - "Cubed Combination".
Though, personally, I'd prefer "Third Power Combination" (though, someone on Allspark.com also suggested "Threefold Combination"), but I'll accept "Cubed Combination" if "Third Power" or "Threefold" feel too long.
Or, if we wanted something even shorter, we could replace "Combination" with "Fusion" if we wanted.
Plus, I'd even be willing to make all of the necessary page moves and link fixes myself (and I honestly kind of want to). Any thoughts. --Sabrblade 13:30, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

I have no opinion on the translation, but we need to be clear on whether it is meant to be "cubed" or "threefold" as those are different things. --Khajidha 14:33, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

We covered all of this the first time; there is no natural-sounding way to render it better than "Combination Cubed" (or "Fusion Cubed, but I prefer the flow and alliteration of the former). As for the putative concern about "Cubed Combination of Skill" versus "Combination Cubed of Skill", I don't think either sounds good or that the former sounds better, but I also don't know why it couldn't be "Skill Combination Cubed". "Third Power Combination" isn't a construction that sounds natural in English. So far as I'm concerned, we already arrived at the best translation. (Admittedly, I'd prefer the superscript 3, but I can understand not using it when there's no Arabic "3" in the title.) -LV 15:34, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

According to WWWJDIC, Jou doesn't necessarily mean exponential; it can just be multiplication, so "Triple Fusion" looks like it could be an acceptable translation.KrytenKoro 17:25, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

I would honestly be down for that much more that "Cubed", actually. --Sabrblade 17:39, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

Just posting to indicate lack of consensus. -LV 18:08, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

At this point, I'd even be fine with just leaving it as "Sanjō Gattai" (I know I know, we hate gratuitousness outside of Henkei/Gentei). --Sabrblade 18:32, 13 June 2013 (EDT)

Sorry for being a bit late to the party, had to do some Kanji digging. First of, the bad news: the correct translation is indeed "Cubed" or "To the third power". I looked up "triple" specifically and a good portion of the results have the Kanji 重 (jō) in them, which (among other things) means -fold after a numeral, while 乗 (also jō) is used for mathematical powers. So no Triple Play here folks, sorry. Secondly, the format of the title. As Sabrblade has noticed, it plays into the "titles" of the combined robots, which could explain the "ancient/official" form for the numeral three instead of the more common three stripes (it's also liberally used by some manga artists as an alternative for 3 btw). So it can refer to the name of the combination itself, or to the combined robots via their titles (I know, overthinking this, but Japanese has no real plural forms...). I'm also in favor of putting "Combination" after "Cubed", as per combined robot titling tradition. So it all comes down to "Cubed Combo" vs. "Third Power Combo", or even "3D Combo" looking at a certain Super Sentai mech... I love Japanese for what it's worth, but translating is a whole different story. JelZe GoldRabbit 17:02, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

Thank you. Like I said, I can accept "Cubed" if there really is no better alternative (aside from a superscript 3), but it's the putting of "Combination" after it that I'm favoring (i.e. "Cubed Combination"), which I'm glad to see you agree with. --Sabrblade 17:49, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

Why is that a better word order than what we have? Lots of languages have the words in a different order in sentences. --abates 18:21, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

For reference: 乗 【じょう】 (suf) (1) (nth) power; (ctr) (2) counter for vehicles; (n) (3) multiplication; (4) {Buddh} Buddha's teachings [Edit][Ex][G][GI][S][A][W]

３の３乗は２７である。 3 to the third power is 27.[Amend]

So as a correction, while "multiplication" is not the primary translation of the kanji, it still seems to be one of them.

Given that it is three robots combining into one in three ways (which would be squared, but whatever...), the exponential is probably intended, although it's stupid and inaccurate to what is going on (unless there's a third combiner and all three combine...). However, "Cube" just sounds weird given its shape implications, plus "Three-fold" is reminiscent of Eastern religions, which fits really well with the aesthetic. Plus, it slaps you in the face less with its blatant badness as a title.

As for word order, "Combination Cubed" implies that "cube" is being used as a verb, which the kanji are absolutely in the wrong order for, Sanjou here not being a verb or even a verb in adjectival form. It would be something like..."Cars Reddened" instead of "Red Cars". It's an awkward translation. "Cubic/Three-fold Combination/Fusion", or any synonym of those, would be more accurate translations. Personally, I vote for Three-fold Fusion, I think it communicates the intent most accurately.KrytenKoro 19:03, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

By way of a fiendish native Japanese speaker:

"Sanjou" is a pun on both "to the third power" and the archaic formal term for making an appearance (http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/91030/m0u/). Attempting to translate it into English in a way that communicates both meanings may not be possible. Instead, it may be more practical to include a trivia note explaining the pun.

It's not what I wanted to hear, but we may be best-served by "Sanjou". I'd prefer to keep "Combination" in the title, personally. -LV 19:32, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

I'm not sure I understand that...why would that be the selected pun, and not "mountain top", "calamity", "mountain castle", or other homonyms for Sanjou?KrytenKoro 19:39, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

"Sanjou" is a part of a catchphrase of Momotaros from Kamen Rider Den-O, that of "Ore, sanjou!" (lit. "I've arrived!"), and for those of us that know our tokusatsu stuff, it's catchy. In regards to the kanji of 三乗/参上 playing on each other, the other definitions of "mountain top" or "calamity" might not have worked from Takara's perspective. You have 三乗 for three mechs combining, which then has a homonym to 参上, that samurai before the Meiji Era were known to say, and coinciding the Tokugawa flags shown in the trailer, and thus a stronger tie. I will agree to have a trivia note explaining the pun. --Lonegamer78 22:22, 14 June 2013 (EDT)

Guys, all that's being asked of this renaming is to put the word "Combination" second, rather than first, to better flow with the meanings of each of the Swordbots' combined forms' titles, as "Gattai"/"Combination" is the subject in both cases of the individual combiner titles and the series title itself, whereas putting "Sanjō"/"Cubed" second confuses the meaning of the titles with it looking like that "Sanjō"/"Cubed" is what is "of Skill/Speed/Power/Land" rather than the "Combination" part itself being such. I mean, is "Cubed Combination" really so inferior to "Combination Cubed"? I wouldn't be raising this point if it were for the personal titles of the combiners using the same phrase in the same manner as it is in the series title, but as we have it currently, it doesn't fit with how the meanings of each combiner's personal title would be written in English ("[Sanjō] Combination of Skill/Speed/Power/Land) --Sabrblade 01:30, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

No matter how we do it, something will get lost in translation. My proposal: keep the Japanese title fully intact for this (like we did for Henkei/Gentei) as an exception, with a long trivia note explaining the meaning and reason behind everything, using Japanese traditionalism as the core. That would mean including the two forms for the numeral three, "Cubed" sounding a bit impractical at best and the pun with "I have arrived" (just don't mention Kamen Rider Den'Ō). As for the individual titles, Sanjō Gattai of such-and-such. I have seen Gattai used in English reviews of combined robots, so no shame in using that. In closing, if a name is based on obscure or multilayer puns, sometimes it's better to just leave it alone, you know? Maybe add some redirects for good measure. JelZe GoldRabbit 05:10, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

As a Japanese speaker, and having actually SEEN the show now... I'm with JelZe. Any way you translate this, you're losing two thirds of a very cleverly-constructed meaning (Cubed, three vehicles - note that "jou" is also a counter for vehicles, and "Sanjou!" - which really fits the theme of the show and the old-timey Japanese that the Samurai trio speak...). Also, even "Cubed Combination" just sounds... Awkward... In English. I think it's not a BAD translation, but it would seem much better to just roll with the exception. --BraveMax 01:52, 2 July 2013 (EDT)

I hear what you're saying. I'm fine with it either staying as is (so long as "Comination" comes second) or being changed as per your request. But, it will take a truckload of convincing to persuade the higher ups to go with "Sanjō Gattai" over an English equivalent, since this Wiki strives for English as best it can. --Sabrblade 01:35, 3 July 2013 (EDT)

I'm learning that rather quickly. This wiki is not exactly friendly to new contributors - I'm already thinking I won't bother to contribute another episode article for Go!. But sometimes you just have to stand up for accuracy and artistry over rules. Even just "Sanjō Combination" would be better than "Cubed".--BraveMax 08:11, 3 July 2013 (EDT:)

I didn't see this to respond, and while I have no doubt that someone else will fill in Go! episode pages if you don't, I would like to say that I thought Sabrblade's normal tactlessness was particularly nettlesome with regards to how he edited your original article page there. I'd also like to throw out the fact that people have basically been saying "the wiki is an impenetrable clique" since it was founded, and yet the people who edit the most now are like 3/4 not the people who edit the most then. -LV 23:47, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

Cubed/Cubic

Shouldn't it be "Cubic Combination" if the cube part is in front? - SanityOrMadness 06:33, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

There are lots of choices there ("Cuboidal Combination", for example) but I think the one we have is the best conveyor of the mathematical sense of "cube" here, rather than implying they combine into rectangular solids. -LV 08:27, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

Wikipedia:Cubic centimetre. "Cubed Combination" makes no sense in English. - SanityOrMadness 09:32, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

It does make sense, really. If you're trouble by "cubed" as a descriptor appearing front, what about the sentence: "Here are the original values, and here are the cubed values." I can't think of a more natural way to put it. --flicky1991 14:54, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

That use is not the same as saying "to the power of three". It's to do with volume. I don't see any applicable definitions that would make it a synonym for "cubed". --abates 17:42, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

Well, the first definition on the page you linked is "to the power of three", just worded differently. However, I'm still on the "cubed" side. --flicky1991 17:52, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

Yeah, but I think the part of the sentence which says "Used in the names of units of volume" rules that out from being used here as we're not talking about a unit of volume. --abates 18:49, 15 June 2013 (EDT)

Triple Combination

Cuz um... the Samurai Team, and apparently the Shinobi Team, only have three combinations. The toys are specifically made to limit the number of combos possible. If Kenzan is on top, Ganoh and Jinbu will only fit together as jet-tummy and truck-pants, you can't do truck-tummy and jet-pants. So "Cubed" is drastically overstating the capabilities of the teams. So I think we really ought to change the title to "Triple" for accuracy's sake. --M Sipher 15:08, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

Reinstating suggestion to use "Three-fold" or simply "Sanjou Gattai".KrytenKoro 16:41, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I like the sound of "Triple", or even just "Sanjō Gattai" like a couple others have insisted. But, the whole mathematical/exponential meaning of "Sanjō" has been hammered in by above discussions that you're really going to have to press hard for yet another change to the title, Sipher. Godspeed in your efforts. --Sabrblade 17:43, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I think "it's flat-out WRONG" ought to be a pretty fucking compelling argument. There is no "cubed" going on. At all. None. --M Sipher 18:12, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

Like I said, I'm in favor of your suggestion. It's Mimi, Lonergamer, and Chris who need to here this. --Sabrblade 18:18, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I get the impression that the "cubed" thing originates in the Japanese title, in which case it's their error, not ours. That said, I wouldn't oppose moving it to "Triple Fusion" or whatever. --abates 18:57, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I only suggested "cubed" at the beginning because at the time, I felt it was the closest that matched up to their theme of three different combinations. I did had reservations on using it, given how Japan LOVES their homonym puns which creates translation problems, and given how the wiki leans towards English titles. I'm all for just sticking with "Sanjou Gattai" and putting a note at the bottom explaining the cultural tic. --Lonegamer78 22:05, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I'm in favor of replacing "Cubed" with "Triple". It's debatably still cubed, in the sense that there are three guys who each have three ways to combine, but I think it's the more obtuse reading now that we know they can't freely cross-combine. -LV 22:40, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

Basically. I'm fine with the "Combination" half for consistency's sake. (Apparently 合体 can ALSO be a verb meaning "copulation". yyyyyeah) --M Sipher 23:00, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

In any case, yeah, I think the page needs a section explaining the translation... and noting that "sanjou" is also apparently a samurai-period "dramatic entrance" phrase, an "I AM HERE" announcement deal. Oh, Japan, you and your wordplay. --M Sipher 23:03, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

As I understand it the translation dilemma hinges on this:

• Does the "three/triple" refer to the 3-robot gestalt, or the 3 different forms of Gestalt. If the latter, Cubed (though wrong mathematically) captures the spirit well. If the former then Cubed is totally wrong-headed.

"合体" can apparently be translated as "coalescence" or "omnibus edition." Therefore I conclude that "combine" specifically refers to the 3 robots coming together and is not intended to be a cue reference their variable-stacking multiple combinations. Which would make "cubed" inappropriate.

Unless "合体" can also be read in a manner that implies multiplication rather than concatenation, "Cubed" does not reflect the meaning of the actual title. Or as Siph put it-- is "flat out wrong."

I would appreciate the input of someone who knows more japanese on the possible readings of "合体." However, since the characters making up "合体" mean "total" and "body" I strongly suspect that "omnibus/coalescence" is the only reading possible and therefore vote that we ditch "Cubed" forthwith. -Derik 23:13, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

When I asked Quez about the Sanjohaoken sword's name, she gave me "Triple Warlord Sword"... and the sword uses the same hiragana for "sanjou", and she's, well, Japanese. --M Sipher 23:17, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

What exactly does "Go!" mean in this title? The Samurai prefix their names with "Go" when they're the dominant unit in the gestalt; Kenzan becomes GoKenzan when the other 2 are in bitchpants mode. So "go" would seem to mean neither 5 nor a command "to go." Is there a 3rd meaning? (Which might somehow intersect with what we're debating?) -Derik 23:32, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

The "Go" in "Shuta Go" is "剛," a chinese word that can be read in multiple ways, but if Go! is playing on that in this case it would be "exact [ammount]" or "just right quantity" Which would make the title "Three-bound-together -- the perfect ammount!"

...so if that is where "Go!" is coming from (it can't mean "five" or "to go" because that renders the prefix-to-the-combined-form schema meaningless, thus why we're looking for an alternate source) then there might be a sort of subtle math logic at work in the title.

...Alternately (and more likely) the title can basically be read as "three-combination Turansfourma Five!" The words or sounds for 3, four and 5 appear in rapid succession in this title. I'm leaning towards a math pun being... but not one involving Cubing. Either summation or counting.

Cubing has to 五 fuck itself. -Derik 23:50, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

I think you are probably overanalyzing the use of an exciting, positive English word the creators liked the sound of. -LV 23:54, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

Well yes... but 剛 can also simply mean "strong," which would make sense as a combination-prefix.

I think "Tripartite Transformer Go!" captures the intended meaning without lending itself to mis-reading like Triple does... but I know damn well we're never gonna move it to that. -Derik 23:59, 10 July 2013 (EDT)

On the "go", I think the most accurate kanji is 御, which means "honorable" and fits the old samurai theme the Swordbots evoke. Tying in with the old school things, there's "御用", goyou, the basis for "goyoude" as the old school form of "you're under arrest" that's heard in Japanese period dramas (notable for those that have watched Samurai Sentai Shinkenger). And then there's de gozaru 御座る, the older form of gozaimasu, which is spoken often by samurai in period dramas as well. There's no real translation for "degozaru", pretty much "to be", but those that have read/watched/know Rurouni Kenshin will give the closest translation as "that it is" or "that I am". --Lonegamer78 00:35, 11 July 2013 (EDT)

Let us not forget, guys, that this show doesn't just have Samurai dudes as the stars. There's also the ninja-based Shinobi Team that's likely to be the focus of the next episode. Ergo, not everything must be heavily samurai-themed when the ninjas will likely have an equal amount of influence and spotlight time on this show, if the info regarding TV-Kun releasing the Samurai Team episodes and TV Mag releasing the Shinobi Team episodes remains true throughout the series run.

Anyway either "Triple Combination" or "Sanjō Gattai" sound fine by me (and I hope for us to get everything sorted out so I can help Walruslaw finalize episode 1's subtitle script). --Sabrblade 00:45, 11 July 2013 (EDT)