Talk:Dynasty of Primes

... what on earth? Half the stuff in the "Revenge of the Fallen" section doesn't agree with the film version of the events, which are more-or-less chronicled at Tomb of the Primes. There couldn't have been a lone Prime who hid the Matrix in the Tomb of the Primes when we were shown a group of Primes melding their bodies into slag to MAKE the Tomb of the Primes to hide in the Matrix in the FIRST place. --Monzo 03:26, 27 June 2009 (EDT)

The info I got was from the novelization. If I was wrong, please correct. -- SFH 13:28, 27 June 2009 (EDT)

sol = sun?

Do they meen Sun with sol? because if they do meen the sun, the sun does not circle the earth.--Sunjumper 15:14, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

Merge proposal

So where would the combined page go? And how do we reconcile the differences between the movie and the adaptations? -- SFH 14:22, 25 July 2009 (EDT)

I think it should move to "Prime (ROTF)" so we can describe what a Prime is without starting off with a bias toward one medium or another. And we wouldn't reconcile anything, just describe what a Prime is in the movie and adaptations and leave it all unreconciled like the actual fiction is unreconciled. - Starfield 14:41, 25 July 2009 (EDT)

I still disagree with the need for a parenthetical. The term "Dynasty of Primes" encompasses every last Prime in the movie continuity. If we're going to merge, go with the official term that is the most inclusive.--Rosicrucian^Talk 16:25, 25 July 2009 (EDT)

Name for one of them

When Sam starts babbling Cybertronian knowledge in Astronomy class, one of the things that can be heard is "Sentinel Prime expedition." So it's possible one of them was named Sentinel Prime. ZeldaTheSwordsman 21:20, 28 July 2009 (EDT)

I'm not sure if it was Sentinel. Some of them are probably named things like Prima , Liege Maximo; after the Thirteen basically, except there was just seven instead. CH 12:58, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

The adaptations confirm it was Sentinel.--Rosicrucian^Talk 13:49, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Any one in particular, just so we can source it and head-off confusion? -Derik 14:14, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Both the novelization and issue two of the comic. Also, it just mentions "Sentinel Prime". For all we know, he isn't one of the original founders, and may just be a descendant like Optimus. -- SFH 14:16, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Actually, he says it in the film as well. During the ramble the words Sentinel Prime are very clear, saying he proved something about the other dimensions, something scientific like that. We don't know if he's one of the original 7 or a descendant, but his existence is confirmed User:Eire 19.56 Oct 12 09 (UTC)

He says "the Sentinel Prime Expidition." It could be the name of the expedition, like "The Ark Expidition." And regardless we have no proof that this name refers to one of the 12/7 even if it does refer to an individual. -Derik 15:40, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

Mark of the Primes...

That funky little symbol at the beginning of the article--I think it's on the left side of movie!Optimus' forehead area, but sometimes it seems to be there and sometimes it isn't! Is this some kind of animation/rendering error? CH 03:45, 12 October 2009 (EDT) (I finally figured out the tildes! Doy!)

Difference with the adaptations

I only saw the movie once, after reading the adaptations (I was trying to enjoy the film and not looking for differences) but I don't think the stories are all that different. There is the number of Primes and how many are alive when they make the tomb. Anything else? - Starfield 00:01, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

Sometimes described as 12 prime initially, sometimes described as 13. If you start to get into the kids adaptions... the phrasing REALLY reads like the survivors except one sealed themselves in a tomb, and the last one returned to Cybertron and either begat or is Optimus Prime with his memory wiped. Or there was onyl one survivor who forged the tomb out of the parts of his fallen brothers...

You could dismiss the phrasing as bad, and not really indicating something different... but the story demonstrably is different in different c0ontinuities (number of Primes) so I'm reluctant to do so... I think the books do just say what they say. -Derik 00:12, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

I didn't know that in the kids' adaptation one of the original Primes may have survived. That would have actually made a little more sense. - Starfield 00:27, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

• The Last Prime
  • AllSpark created 13 Primes
  • Primes created the Matrix of Leadership (from the Allspark, other acaptions are clearer.)
  • "They hd one rule: No sun would be destroyed if it gave life to the worlds around it. Earth was one -planet the Transformers explored for Energy. But early humans were starting to walk the Earth, and the one rule was invoked. One of the Primes, known as The Fallen, did not follow this rule. Because he wanted the Matrix for hismelf, The Falled waged war on his 12 brothers." (Other books make a mess of this and disagree... but this simmary make the opening scene 17k years ago make the most SENSE, IMO. They surveyed Earth, thought it had no sentient life, and were well into the building process when that hunting party of humans arived and encountered The Fallen. This his anger at them-- and his decision to scare them off so he could cover it up and continue working would be his act of betrayal-- a moral failing. This doesn't fit with other media, which've imposed other somewhat jumbled contexts or meanings on the scene... but it feels the most 'right,' and I bet if you asked Orci he'd say that that's what it was supposed to be.)
  • 12 Primes sealed themselves in a tomb.
  • The Fallen waits "hovering in space."
  • Optimus is the last Prime. (Don't ask me to explain how that works is the Allspark only created 13, and 12 are in a tomb and the other is The Fallen.)
  • The face of the Fallen is projected from a triangle in the floor of the crashed ship.
  • Jetfire changed sides in the war between the Decepticons and the Autobots long ago.
  • Jetfire says "Only a Prime can defeat him. Only one survives, forever unaware of his destiny." (So Jetfire knows of Uptimus specifically? And he knows he's ignorant of his own origins which are...? I know, it makes no sense.)
  • The Primes in the Infinite White are called 'skeletons.' (I remember the ROTF novel also called them 'endoskeletons'... do it doesnt' seem to just be a 'look' the original 13 had... they actually are Transformer skeletons, with none of the armor a Transformer normally has.)
  • First ghost/skeleton: "We are the Dynasty of the Primes." (Wait... they called themselves that? As a formal term for their group?)
  • Optimus is "our descendant." Our is collective, he's the sescendant of the Primes as a whole. (How literal to take that...?)
  • Like in the ROTF novelization, only 6 primes actually speak.
  • Jetfire tells Optimus that as the last of the Primes he possesses powers beyond his own imagining. (No I don't know what that means... but the movie seems to have a vague notion that Primes have some intrinsically special quality to them that it wanted to articulate, but failed in the scramble to corall the script disaster. It might be related to Prime's ability to take Jetfire's parts or absorb his energy, or might not. The movie dials this back signifigantly, jetfire says his parts will give Prime great power-- ditchign any idea of this somehow being intrinsic to his status as a Prime.)
  • Optimus says the Fallen killed his 'brothers', who are his ancestry. (The movie ditches this, and has The Fallen scream at Optimus "Die like your brothers!")
  • Prime tells Megatron that The Fallen's promise to make him into a Prime was a lie because Prime's a born, not made. (Totally undercutting the moral of Sam's arc in the movie, where he is told that a hero is something you choose to become, not something you already are... hilariously he's told this by the Ghost Primes as a piece of great universal wisdom. Don't look too deeply into this... I think the reason the line got cut from the movie was because the producers were aware of the moral dissonance and didn't want to highlight it.)
  • The Fallen opens a wormhole to escape, but is pulled back by Optimus using Animated-style grapple-lines. Megatron escapes through the wormhole before it closes instead. (This shows up in a dople adaptions-- I think Bay toywed with a couple different ideas of the final fight. Megatorn escapign this way was PROBABLY ditched because when it came tiem to do the effects they had the Fallen teleporting in flashes, not stepping through flaming portals as originally envisioned.)
  • Prime stabs The Fallen through the skull with a piece of the machine.

• Revenge of the Fallen: The Junior Novel notes
  • The hunters encounter The Fallen. The workers in the canyon are not his fellow Primes (there are dozens of them) and the alien's angular, crowned face was the symbold of a group of Transformers known as the Decepticons." (This suggests that Earth was always somehow an "off the books" operation, with the Fallen building the harvester there as part of his byzantine never-properly-explained plot to steal the Matrix of Leadership. Fits better with the IDW comics... but those are due for a retconnign any day now, and it doesnt' explain the Fallen's explicitly-stated hatred of humans, which even jetfire mentions, while the version in The Last Prime does.)
  • Ravage and The Doctor revive Megatron with no Constructicons.
  • The ship on the ice world (which has a Crimons Atmosphere) is explicitly named to be the Nemesis.
  • the pods are "sarcophagi," cryogenic containment vaults. (Stasis pods, basically.)
  • Starscream says the Nemesis contains The Fallen's long-lost army, which fled Cybertron and crashed in 15 sarcophagi. (13 in the adult novel.) (Since none of the vaults are open at this point, it means that the Transformers already seen on Earth up to this point are 'not them.)
  • The Fallens' face is formed by thousands of metal pins that rise up out of the floor.
  • "While I assemble forces in other dimensions..." (What forces? You bring YOURSELF. That's it. And if you can freely jump between dimensions, why were you using Megatron as a catspaw all this time?)
  • Megatron opens all 15 sarcophagi and heads for Earth. (Ditched in the movie, obviously, by making them gestation pogs which needed Energy. The comic adaption had a scene at the end where Megatron returned to the Nemesis at the end of the film to open all the vaults, freeing this epic ancient army as a stinger for a 3rd film.)
    • Really the whole Nemesis plot seems to be aborted in the final movie... there was some idea that Megatron would get his warriors-- probably Devastator from it... but by the time they broke the script, they realized that they needed to have the Constructions on Earth earlier... so the idea shifted to being "a group of legendary warriors sealed in boxes you can't open" to drive the plot forward-- they were heading to Earth to get the power (?) to awaken these guys... but that just made them an obnoxious unfired Chokov's gun straddling the plot. (The "locked Sarcophagi" version of the script is clearly where The Fallen's imprisonment in the IDW comics comes from.)
    • So they get turned into gestating hatchlings who they needed power to quicken... and we're given every reason not to expect to see again in the film, "please ignore how this makes the Decepticons somewhat sympathetic characters trying to birth their young" "Please also ignore how Starscream explicitly says he started these things with The Fallen since 2007... despite the fact 'the only source of Transformer life' being destroyed is a plot point in this movie." So to make that work, The Fallen is no longer imprisoned and... it's just a horrible mish-mash of a scene that accomplishes nothing it was originally supposed to and plays hob with the film's internal timeline... but which had to be there because they needed to get everyone in a room together to explain shit.
    • Which didn't work anyway, because the script got so away from the screenwriters that Soundwave never scanned an Earth mode-- or even showed up in robot mode! There's a reason Hasbro released a Gathering at Nemesis giftset ostensibly about a meeting between Megatron, The Fallen and Soundwave... the expectation seems to have been that as the script got hammered into place they'd all actually be there on the Nemesis to compare notes and make fun of Starscream together. But like a lot of stuff in the movie, that plotline "got away from 'em" as they desperately scrambled to get other stuff 'working' with only half as many drafts as the previous movie. (Due to the writers strike.) As a result, Soundwave is essentially a non-character. He was supposed to be awesome.
  • Alice is an android, TV comercial, etc.
  • The Doctor is killed by a sniper with a laser scope. (This was in "The Last Prime" too... why wasn't it in the movie? it sounds like an awesome hilarious moment, because the red dot appearing and puzzlignt he doctor is our first clue rescue is imminent.)
  • The Decepticon that grabs Ron and Judy is explicitly said to be one of the ones from The Nemesis. (Remember, no Constructicons when reviving Megatron, so except for the shoverl at the beginning, they all arrived from space after Megatron awoke them. This makes sense in the book!)
  • Sam calls The Doctor a crab-bot. (relevant to an old discussion about the Doctor.)
  • The seekers were stranded or stuck on Earth for thousands of years. ("The Last Prime" said the same thing.)
  • Jetfire has been scouring Earth for 2000 years. (Yes, I know the timeline makes no goddamn sense at all. Fuck you too. I think Orci just wrote dates in the script and figured they'd make 'em make sense later. Notice in the final movie that avoid all such date-time references except 17,000 years ago, dodging the problem.)
  • Jetfire's "Transdimensional land bridge" is "post-Dynastic" technology (preferring to a time era) that was discontinued in later models due to a tendency to occasional catastrophic failure. It's powered or tied directly into his spark, which pulses powerfuly as he uses it. (As I follow this... it means jetfire was not/could not have been one of the combatants in the original war in Egypt 17,000 years ago... but instead dates from the period on Cybertron AFTER the 12 primes were all killed... the Post-Dynastic period. ...how or why they were all scouring Earth for the Matrix of Leadership...? Who knows. And a start dats of 2000 years makes absolute anti-sense, since Megatron landed on Earth 10,000 years ago. The post-Dynastic period has to have been prior to that. Ignore it.)
  • Jetfire says The Fallen sent him (and presumably the rest of the Seekers) to Earth. (What. The. Hell?! But-- that just raises even MORE questions! Note how ALL these crappy half-formed backstory and dates were CUT from the final movie because they made no damn sense? Treat them like what they are-- placeholders. If the dates or backstory make no sense and aren't affirmed by something that came out AFTER the movie did... ignore them.)
  • The Allspark forged the Matrix, not the Primes. (IIRC the adult nodalization splits the difference, the Primes used the Allspark to forge the Matrix. That makes good sense.)
  • The Fallen has a specific and unexplained hatred of organic life that caused him to specifically choose Earth, so that he could wipe out some life when the sun-harvester went active.
  • The Fallen deactivated the other Primes, one after another. One escaped and took the matrix sealing it and himself in a tomb on Earth.
  • "Only a Prime can defeat The Fallen," Jetifre replied. "That is why he returned to Cybestron to wage war. He deactivated all direct descendants of the Prime Dynasty, except for one who was hidden away. An orphan-- forever unaware of his destiny." (Okay... that makes sense. And it jibes with the IDW comics. You had a set of original Primes... but they also pro-created and has literal descendants they left back on Cybertron. For whatever reason, Optimus got lost in the shuffle and was unaware he was part of that bloodline, thus he was spared the purge when The Fallen returned to Cybertron. It fits terribly with the actual events of Defiance, since Megatorn started the war and there were no other Primes to purge... but in broad terms... this it as least close to what must have happened-- it actually makes sense unlike the other contradictory mumbled vagueness you find in many sources that draw on early scripts that didn't quite make sense.)
  • With the sun-harvester abandoned, human civilization sprang up around it, presumably worshiping it as a temple or relic of the gods. (It's basically implied that this, not the Nile, was the true impetus for humans to give up a nomadic existance and start building a civilization.) In time they are buried by natural and manmade accumulation.
  • Epps and Lennox's wives.
  • Instead of the twins fighting, Leo and Simmons have an argument and leo throws a pottery shart at him-- which cracks the mural and reveals... etc.
  • The Twins regognize Devastator and call him by name. (Wait... I thought these robots came out of 15 ancient sarcophagai not opened since the time The Fallen brought war to Cybertron...?)
  • No helicopter crash where they steal radios from the survivors... Simmons is just a paranoid who owns a EMP hardedned cell phone that can double as a radio. Bless his paranoid little soul!
  • In his NDE, sam finds himself "Someplace empty, and white, and infinite." Okay-- I've been referring to the ghostly zone where Sam encounters the Primes as "Infinite White" for awhile now... that's the title of Jablonsky's instrumental track for that scene, and the exact same phrase is being echoed here. At some point in the scripting or production process, that "location" received the name infinite white. With two points of triangulation for an extremely specific phrase, I'm 'calling' it. "Infinite White" is an official designation for that 'place.' Whether it's an in-universe designation...? Probably not, Movieverse TF's dont' seem to have much in the way or religion or theology, and there's been no mention of a concept of an afterlife. So-- an official internal term. Good, now we have something to call it. (I'm happy, if I hadn't re-read this to make these notes I'd never have noticed that.)
  • There are 11 Primes in the Infinite White-- which means The Fallen was #12. (He was #13 in The Last Prime.)
  • "Slowly the vast, infinite white receded, and Sam realized..." slightly more than 1 page after the first usage. It was so called that in the script!
  • The Fallen's "telekinetic" displays are said to be accomplished using invisible force fields.
  • Jetfire tells him he's the last of the Primeas as as such posessed power blah blah blah... (Ignore it, for all the reasons I growled about for "The Last Prime." It's an unformed concept that was wisely removed from the finished movie because it never gelled.)
  • Jetfire thumped into a "deep sleep." (As with the 2007 movie, the censorship is inconsistent. This book mentioned lifeboats for the sinking aircraft carrier too. But "The Last Prime" aimed at an even YOUNGEr audience has Megatron threatening to torture and kill Sam!)
  • Devastator gets railgun'd just as Prime is flying intot he pyramid, clearing the way for him.
  • The machine is called the "sun harvester."
  • Prime rams the top of the machine as it's firing, causing its beam to disochet down into the inside of the pyramid where Megatron, Starscream and The Fallen are standing, burning them. (In the movie Prime just lobs a missile on his way in-- the Sun harvester is essentially a null threat.)
  • The Fallen uses his forcefields to bend gravity. (Gravitional lensing maybe? I guess gravity manipulation makes more sense than focefields used to imitate telekinesis... when he was throwing stuff around it LOOKED more like gravitational manipulation.)
  • Optimus Prime (apparently bolstered by Jetfire's power?) manifests his own shimmering forcefield that blocks the Fallen's effects. (...see, now that actually makes perfect sense. If Primes can inherently manipulate whatever-the-hell kind of energy The Fallen is throwing around, then it makes sense why you'd need a Prime to beat him... because only a Prime could nullify his godlike powers so The Fallen was forced to fight on a direct, physical level. And the movie fight was extremely visceral. The Fallen doesn't even teleport during it... despite seeming to favor Scorpion-style teleport attacks in the previous scene. Maybe Prime was blocking him? ...would it have killed them to take 3 seconds to explain this?)
  • Prime beats the Fallen senseless with a couple pieces of the sun harvester, then beats him until he's sensible again just so he can be rightly terrified. The Fallen opens a wormhole to escape, but Optimus grabs The Matrix from the base of the harvester, and waves it like a magic wand to SHUT that hole-- and then OPEN another one to...
  • "Send you somewhere else. A place where no one will hear from you. Ever again." He throws him through the wormhole, and closes it. (We're not told where it leaves, but the implication is it's someplace The Fallen will not be able to escape from, despite his ability to open his own wormholes.)
  • As in the "The Last Ptime" book, Simmons is explicitly stated to survive being directly under Davastator's balls when he blows up.

I had no idea the Jr. novels were so different, and in some ways more complicated. It's like they took the story and slammed it against the wall leaving a pile of plot threads picked up differently in each medium. But at least the movie made some cash. - Starfield 11:15, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

New page for "repurposed Protoform Optimus Prime" Prime?

Should a new page be created for "repurposed Protoform Optimus Prime" Prime to attempt to start to keep track of these guys or would that be pointless since their appearance changes all the time? - Starfield 01:43, 7 January 2010 (EST)

Older than the Universe?

According to Hasbro's Transformers Timeline, the Primes were ancient when the universe was young. Is that just gibberish, or hyperbole, or are they confusing "universe" with "galaxy" or something? - Starfield 12:44, 3 March 2010 (EST)

Two options: 1) That phrase is pretty common hyperbole when refering to ancient races in comic book fiction (See the Guardian, Galactus, the Elders of the Universe, etc) so excuse it on that front or 2) Remember that we know the Primes are Multiversal singularities and given the definition of that Hasbro gave in their Q&As the Primes quite possibly ARE much MUCH older than the Movie universe. -ZacWilliam (not signed in)

I just assumed that meant they were among the first lifeforms in the universe. Khajidha 13:06, 3 March 2010 (EST)

No, as confirmed Multiversal singularities they exist outside and seperate from the Movie Universe itself and could easily predate it by billions of years or more. -Zac again.

I'd go as far as to say that the Seven Primes as Multiversal singularities are probably infinitely old. - Tyrannolodon 10:58, 27 May 2011 (EDT)