Talk:Fireflight (FOC)

Detour

Sorry, forgot that generations was the toyline that the WFC toys were in.

Un-Canceled?

Just saw him listed in the 2013 Generations FOC wave 1 set on TFSource. So I take he's not canceled or are they mistaken? Helli0n 21:56, 18 September 2012 (EDT)

Prime Kup was solicited as Ironhide up until his actual release. --ItsWalky 22:21, 18 September 2012 (EDT)

The Japanese version is definitely going to be Fireflight... the page should probably be updated to reflect that. Not positive how to best reflect that the Japanese release (with a different deco) is still on, but the US release is renamed Air Raid... obviously the picture should change, though. Larkmarn 09:24, 15 November 2012 (EST)

The thing is, if Takara's handling of United's FOC stuff follows their handling of the WFC stuff, that won't be Fireflight (FOC), it'll be a new toy of Fireflight (G1). So moving on that front is a little premature. -LV 11:00, 15 November 2012 (EST)

Good point. But... some mention of it should be made. Either here or on the G1 Fireflight page.Larkmarn 11:25, 15 November 2012 (EST)

Devil's advocacy

So we've seen the FOC toy's packaging and he is in fact Air Raid...but he's also Fireflight-colored with a Fireflight head and Fireflight's personality and (roughly) tech spec numbers. When Universe Octane came out as an Octane toy in Octane's colors with Octane's personality, we didn't list it as a toy of Tankor (BM). Might this be a situation where the toy is "really" Fireflight even though it's called Air Raid on the package? -LV 16:32, 15 November 2012 (EST)

I'd agree here, it's clearly a last-minute name substitution. I'd support moving the toy back onto Fireflight (FOC. Jalaguy 17:07, 15 November 2012 (EST)

Tankor's case was a case of trademark trouble. I think this instance is closer to Universe 1 Inferno, which was Red Alert in all instances but name. If 3H hadn't made him an iteration of BW Inferno, I'm fairly certain he'd be on some sort of Inferno page, not a Red Alert one. See also Legends of Cybertron red flamy Hot Shot, who is definitely not really Excellion! --ItsWalky 18:04, 15 November 2012 (EST)

I don't think those situations are the same because a) Universe Inferno didn't have a new Red Alert head and b) Universe Inferno had no bio or tech spec to go from. If he'd been Prowl in Red Alert colors with a new Red Alert head and his bio said he was a paranoid security officer, I think the conversation about where he belonged would probably be longer. -LV 18:15, 15 November 2012 (EST)

Even if this is a last-minute substitution, it's a continuity in which he's never been Fireflight. Thus, in Aligned it's his original name.--Rosicrucian^Talk 18:39, 15 November 2012 (EST)

But then there has already been an Aligned Air Raid, who's been characterised and depicted completely differently... Jalaguy 18:53, 15 November 2012 (EST)

That's the source of my only real interest in this. If we had no idea what Air Raid was like in Aligned, whatevs. Smokescreen and Dreadwing and Hardshell are nothing like their previous versions either. But we know what Air Raid is like, and he's not like this. -LV 19:01, 15 November 2012 (EST)

That's what I was going to say. The toy doesn't really belong on "Air Raid (WFC)." However, we can't make up stuff and put him on "Fireflight (FOC)." Clearly, this toy is not this continuity's previously established Autobot named Air Raid who has Air Raid's G1 personality. This toy is a different Autobot named Air Raid with Fireflight's G1 personality. I think making a new "Air Raid (FOC)" page is in order while simultaneously shaking our heads wondering why Hasbro makes things complicated. - Starfield 19:17, 15 November 2012 (EST)

As much as I would hate for there to be more than one Aligned dude with the same name, I'd have to begrudingly agree with the "Air Raid (FOC)" (or even an "Air Raid (Generations)" - since this particular Air Raid has yet to appear in any fiction outside his bio) idea since he's too different from the established "Air Raid (WFC)" guy.

But, on the other hand, that would give others who are against the whole "WFC/FOC guys = Prime guys" ordeal of the Aligned continuity a doorway to argue that likes of WFC Breakdown and Prime Breakdown are different enough to coexist as individuals like the two Air Raids would, and would likely demand that there be separate articles for each and such, which would do more harm than good to how we've already got things going here. --Sabrblade 19:31, 15 November 2012 (EST)

Doesn't the Movie Air Raid page have like four distinct designs on it? Why does a second one break Aligned Air Raid? (Aha. We split off the seeker one, so just three for Movie Air Raid.) --ItsWalky 20:48, 15 November 2012 (EST)

I guess it's because none of the three non-Seeker Tyran Air Raids contradicted themselves in their bios (though, the ROTF one had no bio anyway, but I can't exactly speak for Takara DOTM Air Raid since I haven't read his bio, but I'm assuming there's no contradiction since he's included on that page with the others), whereas here we have a toy bio portrayal that conflicts with the existing video game portrayal, primarily since how the two portrayals are thought to be contemporaries of each other, in a continuity that seems to have no shared names between more than one character (as far as we have seen thus far).

Although, here's a different thought. Even though this toy's packaging uses the FOC sub-label, suppose this guy isn't an Aligned character and could fall into a generic "Air Raid (Generations)" article like how we current have Ruination, Topspin, and Whirl at. I propose that, until we can get a more concrete answer as to what the deal of this toy's character is, we go for an "Air Raid (Generations)" disambiguation. --Sabrblade 21:20, 15 November 2012 (EST)

For the time being, updated G1 Fireflight and this page to reflect the fact a redeco of the figure IS coming out as a Fireflight. Larkmarn 11:51, 20 November 2012 (EST)

Okay, so stock photos of the Kreon combiner Superion are out, and Fireflight is renamed to Firestrike, which suggests that this is a case of trademark trouble. Does this affect how we're treating this guy? Jalaguy 13:00, 20 November 2012 (EST)

I don't know, but it's only been three years since the ROTF Superion. Funny how fast this stuff happens. -LV 13:15, 20 November 2012 (EST)

I think yes... but only so far as declaring that this guy is a separate character. Declaring he is a pre-production name isn't something we can 'do', even if we know it's right. More to the point, there's a question which name he would "actually" have if he were released, Fireflight or Firestrike? Trying to filter things through "what they would be like if..." is a slippery slope.

OTOH if (for example) John Barber mentions a Fireflight in one of his FoC comics I would feel comfortable saying "this is that guy". It's the fact we've got no other data points establishing such a character actually exists that's the real trouble.

...hell with it. We know this isn't Air Raid, let's not pretend he's the same guy. Hasbro didn't even intend that, this was a demonstrably last-second Trademark thing. So he's Air Raid 2, or whatever. And if we get Fireflight mentioned ANYWHERE he moves. -Derik 13:32, 20 November 2012 (EST)

It just seems kind of hinky to second-guess Hasbro like that. We don't typically incorporate authorial intent, whether it's explicitly stated or otherwise. At least we generally don't beyond notes at the bottom of articles.--Rosicrucian^Talk 13:35, 20 November 2012 (EST)

I look at it this way, when stepping out on a ledge you need three good reasons:

1. He wasn't supposed to be Air Raid (confirmed by preprod name, plus we know there's Trademark problems)
2. He's not deco'd like Air Raid.
3. He's got a bio that's almost 180° of Air Raid.

Japan repurposing (depurposing? Sidepurposing?) him unaltered as G1 Fireflight doesn't even have to enter into the equation, it's just icing on top. Ditto for the fact he's a homage-character.

I just think that's enough. Not to say he's Fireflight, but to say that he's a separate Air Raid. Which he is, we're all just angsting whether or not there's enough 'evidence' for us to recognize this of if we're going to be shackled by some imaginary standard which causes us to willfully misrepresent what's actually happening. Because that's what's happening: He's not the same guy. The wiki us supposed to be a helpful guide, not a collection of neatly listed facts assembled with no judgement or common sense to fit some autistic-compulsive itch-bitch that the world will be rendered ruins because "the released name matters above all else!"

Shit, in a reverse-case we didn't declare Tankor was a seperate character from Octane. We used our eyes and brains to say "this is a name swap with two names for the same guy." Unfortunately this is a name swap with one name for two guys. This isn't even as bad as Air Raid/Aero Raid. (One name, one toy, two different guys.) -Derik 14:03, 20 November 2012 (EST)

Tankor was at least an easier case because he was being slotted into a continuity where he had fiction. I mean, that's where I'm in agreement with you. If Barber uses this dude as Fireflight, he goes here in a heartbeat.--Rosicrucian^Talk 14:09, 20 November 2012 (EST)

I'd got further and say that if he mentions Fireflight as existing without even seeing him then you can move this guy to Fireflight (FOC). (A loose standard, I admit. Fortunately it's not what we're debating.) -Derik 21:48, 20 November 2012 (EST)

So... seems like there's something of an agreement that this is Air Raid (FOC) and basically wait for the slightest hint of an opportunity to turn him into Fireflight? Am I interpreting that correctly? And seriously, between this guy, Movie-verse Air Raid(s), Universe Legends-class Air Raid getting mis-labeled on the packaging, and the whole Air Raid/Aero Raid thing, is there some sort of curse on the name to never be easy to identify? Larkmarn 14:23, 20 November 2012 (EST)

Unless he appears in the game in this body, I'm inclined to say Air Raid (Generations) in keeping with how we did the Wreckers with no fictional appearances. I mean, Fall of Cybertron isn't his franchise of origin unless he's in it.--Rosicrucian^Talk 14:30, 20 November 2012 (EST)

The packaging for all of these guys says "FALL OF CYBERTRON" as one of the most dominant pieces of copy. -LV 15:32, 20 November 2012 (EST)

Have you seen this guy's package yet? They dropped "Prime" from Cyberverse Evac's package so the buyer can fit him into the movie continuity if he wants. - Starfield 16:17, 20 November 2012 (EST)

http://www.robotkingdom.com/services/eshop/main.php?action=details&CatType=&II=TF2013GEN001&lang=us&CatID= Jalaguy 16:22, 20 November 2012 (EST)

So... Air Raid (FOC) then? I'm pretty convinced, even without appearing in the game, he's in the FOC toyline (like how, well, DotM Air Raid is DotM despite not being in the movie).Larkmarn 16:57, 20 November 2012 (EST)

My bolding, because it's the relevant question. I vote yes. -Derik 21:48, 20 November 2012 (EST)

I vote yes. - Starfield 22:08, 20 November 2012 (EST)

Objection to the "(FOC)" disambig. Ruination, Topspin, and Whirl are in a similar boat as this Air Raid is. "Air Raid (Generations)" is the better choice on account of this guy having made no appearances in any FOC media, as well as the fact that the toyline is called "Generations" and not "Fall of Cybertron". There is no toyline called "Fall of Cybertron". The only thing this guy has appeared in is the Generations toyline, which is also his first franchise appearance, therefore, he's best known as "Air Raid (Generations)". --Sabrblade 23:48, 20 November 2012 (EST)

Those guys were not disambiguated FOC because we didn't know what their packaging would look like, so the remote chance existed that they would be G1 or some other non-Aligned versions of the characters. These characters are explicitly identified as being from FOC on their packaging; the "Generations" disambiguation doesn't tell us anything about them. It is less specific and therefore less useful. When we inevitably see that the Wreckers' packages also have "FALL OF CYBERTRON" on them, they should also be moved. -LV 00:54, 21 November 2012 (EST)

Yeah, I'm going to have to vote yes. As LV pointed out, they're not in the same boat as the Wreckers, since we haven't seen their packaging and have no idea what continuity they're in. And Generations is especially confusing since it would be confused as an update of one of the many other Air Raids out there. Larkmarn 09:42, 21 November 2012 (EST)

Also, do we have a term for what Japan is doing? De-purposing? -Derik 13:32, 20 November 2012 (EST)

I guess we'll have to wait and see what the Japanese Air Raid's bio says. Anyway, have we reached a consensus yet? Are we going with "Air Raid (FOC)" or not? --Sabrblade 13:42, 26 November 2012 (EST)

Just so I'm clear, was he ever called Fireflight by anything official? -Derik 19:05, 10 December 2012 (EST)

Looking at old news stories and things, it seems he was referred to as Fireflight by Hasbro in their BotCon 2012 presentation, but they were calling him Air Raid by the time they were doing the same thing at SDCC. Jalaguy 20:16, 10 December 2012 (EST)