Talk:Generation 1 cartoon timeline

I am uneasy about a lot of this. I would prefer to be more conservative about mashing things together, to the point that a coherent timeline for this continuity would be nearly impossible. I haven't watched the G1 series in several years, but as the discussion at Talk:Early Decepticon seems to indicate, my recollection was that the ancient history of Cybertron was extremely vague if not actually self-contradictory. Unless things are very clear-cut, it is not our place to decide how those elements should be resolved and state those speculations authoritatively. A prose article discussing the different pieces of backstory, and analyzing the ways that they fit and don't fit would be much preferable to a linear timeline. Additionally, I'm wary of the idea of pushing Beast Era retcons into what is explicitly being called a G1 Cartoon timeline. Beast Era stories take place in a version of G1 that has never been depicted in detail, NOT in the cartoon universe or any other known G1 universe. --Steve-o 02:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

How did Beast Machines not take place in the G1 animated timeline? Yes, Bob and Larry on Beast Wars gave us the "different versions of Generation 1 ar like Arthurian legend" line and invoked Primus, but every single historical reference in Beast Machines dovetails with the cartoon. Not suprising when you consider Marv Wolfman's involvement. -Rotty 02:46, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, maybe I'm crazy, but I consider BW and BM to be no-doubt-about-it the same universe, not just extremely similar universes. So to me, if BW isn't set in the G1 cartoon universe, then neither is BM. --Steve-o 03:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I echo Steve-o here. BW/BM should absolutely not be included in this timeline, and there seems to be a lot of fanon hand-waving here. Nothing in the article even suggests that these things are "made to fit." --ItsWalky 03:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Except for the Beast Machines stuff, which I agree shouldn't be here, this article looks fine to me. --KilMichaelMcC 03:33, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The very plot of Beast Machines couldn't have happened without it being in the Generation 1 animated universe. No other version of G1 has Vector Sigma, no other version has a Plasma Energy Chamber... Marv Wolfman and Bob Skir explicitly made it a follow-on to both Beast Wars and the Sunbow cartoon. The fact that the Beast Wars writers told the fandom BW isn't in Generation 1 animated continuity doesn't change how Beast Machines was written. -Rotty 03:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

While I basically agree that Beast Machines and Beast Wars do take place in the cartoon universe, although you're wrong about Vector Sigma as it's in Dreamwave G1 too, for simplicity's sake I think an article about the G1 cartoon's timeline should stick to the G1 cartoon itself. --KilMichaelMcC 03:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Then where does that leave Headmasters, Masterforce, Victory, and Zone? -Rotty 04:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Rotty, what part of "a version of G1 that has never been depicted in detail" do you not understand? Yes, obviously, Beast Machines has a Plasma Energy Chamber. That doesn't mean that the past of BM is exactly like the G1 cartoon. And in fact, since we know that past of BM was BW, and the past of BW was *not* exactly like the G1 cartoon, that means the past of BM cannot be the G1 cartoon. It is merely something very similar to the G1 cartoon, the details of which are largely unknown. If there were no discrepancies I would be happy to consider BW/BM a direct followup to the G1 cartoon, but those discrepancies are there. --Steve-o 04:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, okay, there is a little bit of hand-waving in the part about Megatron's earlier attacks and the death of U-Haul Robot that should probably be cleaned up. --KilMichaelMcC 03:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I think at most here you have an italicised note in this timeline-- "The beast era often dovetails with the events of this timeline. {{see|Beast Wars timeline}}" -Derik 04:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

So, what, we should have a page that's nothing but events from the Sunbow cartoon, one that's nothing but events from the Mainframe shows, and a third that insperses them together with the events of Scramble City, Binaltech, Robot Masters, Kiss Players, Headmasters, Masterforce, Victory, Zone, Battlestars, Operation Combination, the "future" version of JG2, and the cel-animated Beast shows? -Rotty 04:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Creating a unified timeline out of a dozen different series written by totally different people in different countries spanning 15 years of time with no imposed editorial control is a Herculean task. I don't think it's a realistic proposition. The best that can be done is to discuss the possibilities and snags for such a timeline without actually saying "this is the timeline". There is no single timeline that can work. --Steve-o 04:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

We're still going to need a Generation 1 cartoon timeline page that includes the Japan-only events, just as we include UK-only events in italics under Marvel... -Rotty 05:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Are there really that many that it needs to be a seperate timeline? From 2005-onwards (or possibly 1986 if you count Scramble City) yeah... but can't all the prehistory be one timeline for both? -Derik 06:47, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Masterforce and Victory added prehistoric events to the animated timeline. -Rotty 06:59, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I say incorporate all the Japanese stuff in here, and put it in italics like the UK stuff for the comics. Excuse the Beast Era stuff (since this is specifically the cartoon timeline), but as Derik suggested, add a note about it linking to that timeline. - Dark T Zeratul 07:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

There are good points all around here. On the one hand, if I were making this for my own use I would definately include the BW/BM stuff because I personaly like being inclusive, BUT I think in the interests of objective clarrity it really should be it's own beast on this wiki. (The Japanese stuff however should stay here in italics since that's pretty much exactly the same situation as the US/UK comics and that IS how we handle them.)

My suggestion for BW/BM is to put a note at the top:

(CONTINUITY NOTE: Beast Wars/Beast Machines take place in a universe that borrows many facets of this timeline. Though exactly how many of these events and how many of the events of the Marvel Comics timeline occur in that continuity is unknown, a link to the Beast Wars timeline is provided for reference here at the points where a major historical event from those shows would occur.)

and then add a link over to that timeline where appropriate. Keeps them seperate but gives the cross-reference information appropriate to help people see the larger picture. --ZacWilliam 10:35, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

First Mechanoids?

"Among the beings to which he gave life were the first mechanoids known as "Primitives,""

It's been a little bit since I've seen the show so I could be wrong, but wasn't it stated that he and his assistant made the first primitive Transformers? This sentence just makes it sound to me like he created some generic primitive robots that were entirely unrelated to TFs. If so, I think it needs to be clarified a little.--ZacWilliam 10:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It's sort of... grey. In the episode itself, it just says he "built some of the Primitives." Which makes next to no sense for the group assembled. The cast notes for the episode, however, note that the Oracle is a primitive, which would indicate that the intent was not specifically for Primacron to have created those robots gathered in the episode. But, yeah, I guess it's a bit of hand-waving. - Chris McFeely 11:25, 24 June 2007 (UTC)