Talk:Generation 1 continuity family

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I thought it might be better to separate US and Japan out by columns, to visualize each better. Like this, only maybe without using the featuredchracters template.

{{#if: ||(Numbers indicate order of appearance.)}}

{{#if:* The Transformers (Later called Generation 1) {{#if:* The Transformers (Later called Generation 1)
United States }}{{#if:* Generation 1 Japan }}{{#if:| Humans }}{{#if:| Others }}{{#if:| Misc }}{{#if:| Misc }} 
}}{{#if:|

}}{{#if:|

}}{{#if:|

}}

- Starfield 09:17, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

I like the idea. ^^ --TX55TALK 10:08, 14 May 2009 (EDT)
Not bad. Although I'm wondering about Henkei's placement. I prefer that it's by itself, like CR originally was before Takara's retconning. Unless someone can give me an explanation as to why Henkei should be with the G1 continuity family, given how we have:
Somewhat unbelievably for Japan, it presents the Henkei! universe as a new continuity, rather than shoehorning it somewhere into the cartoon continuity.{{#if:|{{{quote2}}}}}{{#if:|{{{2}}}{{#if:|, {{{3}}}|}}|}}
...in the toyline page. --Lonegamer78 15:06, 14 May 2009 (EDT)
It is in the G1 Continuity family, but not the cartoon continuity. The characters are G1 characters in the new Henkei universe. - Starfield 15:11, 14 May 2009 (EDT)
...that'll do. --Lonegamer78 17:08, 14 May 2009 (EDT)

Wasn't Beast Machines called "Beast Wars Returns" in Japan? - SanityOrMadness 20:24, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

Franchise identifiers

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Previously, for articles in Generation 1 cartoon fiction, the franchise identifier would be worded:

[...] from the cartoon portion of the Generation 1 continuity family.

However this article's disambig suggests that the Generation 1 bit should link to here, or possibly that it should be worded:

[...] from the cartoon portion of the The Transformers franchise in the Generation 1 continuity family.

But that seems a bit wordy. Comments? --abates 18:03, 22 May 2009 (EDT)

Well, that's how characters like Jhiaxus (G2), Rattrap, etc get treated. If you think that's wordy, look at the top of Optimus Primal. - SanityOrMadness 20:24, 22 May 2009 (EDT)
Rattrap doesn't have the "cartoon portion" bit because he's in multiple parts of the Beast Era. Chak and Una are a better representation of what I'm talking about, since they were only in the Beast Wars cartoon. If I have my logic right, their franchise identifier should read:
Chak and Una are a pair of protohumans from the cartoon portion of the Beast Wars franchise in the Generation 1 continuity family.
But hey, that's still shorter than Optimus Primal's identifier, so maybe it's not so wordy after all. :) --abates 06:22, 23 May 2009 (EDT)
I'm wary of saying something like "the cartoon portion of the xxxxx franchise" because oftentimes there are multiple series/continuities within a single medium in a franchise. For instance, "the comic portion of the Generation 1 franchise" is practically meaningless. Note Borebit's disambig-note, which just jumps straight to the continuity family. And really, since the series details are in the section-headers, I see no reason to get too specific. Franchise + continuity family is enough.
On a different note, you seem to be veering in the same direction as Starfield below, using "the The Transformers franchise" in place of what we currently call "the Generation 1 franchise". You can see the discussion below for my response, as well as Talk:Generation 1 (franchise) for more on that. I presume you're trying to avoid the awkwardness of saying "the Generation 1 portion of the Generation 1 continuity family," but I'm sure there's a way we could rephrase that. "The Generation 1 portion of the continuity family of the same name", perhaps?
One disambig-specific danger I see in saying "the The Transformers franchise" is that it confounds the meaning of our parentheticals. The "Swarm (G1)" debate firmly established that "(G1)" means the franchise, NOT NOT NOT the continuity family. So if we then reserve the term "Generation 1" for only the family in the disambig-note... we're giving the kind of mixed signals that will guarantee more of that kind of butt-hurt in the future.
- Jackpot 02:57, 3 June 2009 (EDT)
Yes, my referring to it as the "The Transformers franchise" was exactly to avoid the G1 portion of the G1 continuity family. Your "continuity family of the same name" wording works much better, without having to resort to "The Transformers franchise". --abates 04:23, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Historical or retconned franchise identifiers.

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Concerning Jackpot's edit. I like the original franchise identifiers in this list instead of the retconned ones. I think it is appropriate in this list to call them what they were at the time. It is like a historical record that way. - Starfield 22:52, 2 June 2009 (EDT)

I'll respond to the easy one first: I took "Transformers" off of "Transformers: Generation 2" because that's what we do with every series/franchise, and there's nothing special about G2 in that regard. It doesn't have anything to do with original names and retcons; it's just a convenient shorthand to avoid unnecessary clutter.
As for "The Transformers" vs. "Generation 1", I see where you're going with the original-name argument, but I think that that only truly applies to individual products (such as The Transformers (toyline) and The Transformers (cartoon)). The G1 franchise by its nature is a backwards-looking concept; before G2, the idea of a "franchise" as we're discussing it didn't really exist. There was no intermediary step between the brand and the products. When G2 appeared, it created a void behind itself at its own hierarchical layer. Then when the pre-G2 era started making a comeback in the form of e-Hobby exclusives and so forth, the term "Generation 1" gained official traction, and it smoothly filled the void of the nameless franchise-before-franchises. The way I see it, it's not really as though the franchise had an "original name" that "G1" has superseded; "G1" is filling a vacuum where nothing had existed at all. Moreover, when I see something labeled "The Transformers", I only think of things that ended fully with G2. But the franchise referred to in that link includes lots of stuff in the modern era, so I think the modern term "G1" is a better label.
Lastly, I think consistency within the wiki is important when we're dealing with such wide-spanning, multi-definitioned terms as "G1" and "The Transformers", so in this case I'd go with simplicity. I acknowledge that you were trying to give due respect to both terms in your wording, but I'm not sure it's worth it here.
- Jackpot 01:45, 3 June 2009 (EDT)


Article's title

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I see no reason for the "continuity family" in this article's title to be in parenthesis. This article isn't about a thing called "Generation 1," it's about the "Generation 1 continuity family." I would suggest dropping the parenthesis. --KilMichaelMcC 02:56, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

That thought had been in the back of my head this whole time, but I have a tendency towards finickiness about my own articles, and I didn't want to push it by changing the title on a whim. Now that I've got somebody backing the idea up, though, I'll go ahead and do it. - Jackpot 03:00, 3 June 2009 (EDT)

Ahem

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Being published by X doesn't mean they take place in X's continuity - Hearts of Steel has nothing to do with IDW's main continuity, nor TFTM/BB2006 with the Marvel US timeline - SanityOrMadness

  • BBo2006's comic explicitly calls it "the future", and is an issue of the main Marvel US comic series. At the time it was written, it was perfectly possible to fit in as a possible future for the comic's timeline at the time. But then Furman's taking it over threw that out the window, thus rendering it an alternate future like that of "Rhythms of Darkness", which is what I was trying to present it as.
  • And, several pages on this Wiki treat the Marvel adaptation of TFTM as an alternate future to the main Marvel US timeline, linked to BBo2006. Thus, I was following in suit.
  • The UK G1 comics continuity description on this page plainly says it includes the "Transformers Annual 1992", which "Another Time & Place" was included in. Since it was a UK production and never originally published in the Marvel US material, it only make sense to place "Another Time & Place" beneath the UK G1 comics instead of the US G1 comics.
  • The UK G2 comics were written to follow the continuity of the UK G1 comics, since the US comics had the G.I. Joe crossover that bridged the Marvel US G1 and Marvel US G2 comics, while the Marvel UK G1 did not. Hence my placing the UK G2 comics below the UK G1 comics continuity.
  • The UK G2 Annual is its own continuity, unconnected and unrelated to any other existing works outside of that annual's stories.
  • If the Condor Verlag comics can have their own bullet point for being their own continuity, why can't IDW's Evolutions continuity have one as well? Nowhere did I place it in the same continuity as the main IDW continuity, as it was given a single asterisk instead of two. --Sabrblade 17:55, 7 April 2013 (EDT)
Okay, I'll cede on TFTM/BB2006 & the G2 Annual without a fight.
Here's the bits I disagree on:
Since it was a UK production and never originally published in the Marvel US material, it only make sense to place "Another Time & Place" beneath the UK G1 comics instead of the US G1 comics.
This is actually a discussion I tried to start elsewhere. It's also why I rephrased away from "Marvel US continuity" and "Marvel UK continuity" to the Marvel Earth designations since Marvel UK printed everything.
Put simply, in the aftermath of Classics & RG1 being absolutely explicitly US-only sequels, I don't think it makes any sense to regard there as being a divergence in the continuity of the Marvel UK original stories into Earthforce. Instead, there should just be the "Earth-120185" continuity and its splinter timelines (i.e., the Marvel UK present-day stories and futures - including Earthforce and the pre-Earthforce Marvel US reprints - which end with #289), and the "Earth-91274" continuity and splinter timelines (i.e., all the Marvel US stories and futures thereof, reprinted by Marvel UK, which continue through to UK #332). Another Time & Place is a direct sequel to the latter, not Earthforce, since most of the characters noted as being afflicted by Nucleon in AT&P were revived by other means in Earthforce. [And yes, I may have been careless with my treatment of the Annuals, but that can be fixed.]
Similarly, Fleetway G2 includes Bludgeon & co branching off their status in Marvel US #80.
Condor Verlag is adaptations of (and additions to) the Marvel continuity/ies. "Evolutions" (of which Hearts of Steel was ultimately the only entry) was explicitly presented by IDW as a line of Elseworlds, entirely unconnected to the main IDW continuity. Between explicit statements and differences of continuity, it's not part of that "family" any more than their Marvel US or UK reprints, but a free-floating thing. - SanityOrMadness 20:20, 8 April 2013 (EDT)
I'll skip the talk of the Earth-91274 vs. Earth-120185 issue since that's better suited for the other talk page. But in regards to the Hearts of Steel/Infestation 2 continuity, it is true that it is its own continuity from the main IDW one, but Spotlight: Mirage is also its own continuity separate from the main IDW one. Given the shared publisher between the comic series, I felt it was okay to put the Hearts of Steel continuity in its own single bullet point like Spotlight: Mirage is (as a double bullet point would erroneously make it resemble a subcontinuity of the main IDW continuity). I dunno, I just felt that it at least deserved at least a mention on this page, what with it being part of the G1 continuity family and all. --Sabrblade 00:35, 9 April 2013 (EDT)
Spotlight: Mirage... I don't think anyone's ever nailed it down, but I believe the framing sequence (Autobot Mirage dreaming he's a Decepticon) was at least intended to be in the main IDW continuity, even if it was shoddily executed (a bit like Megatron Origin and its Legion of Cameos That Make No Sense), hence why it gets placed in the IDW Generation 1 continuity sections of pages, albeit shoved to the bottom under a {{note{{#if:||{{{2}}}|}}}} and why I included it here as a linked continuity.
And there are tons of continuities TFWiki regards as "G1" not included. I wasn't going for an exhaustive list, just the main five sets (Marvel, G1 'toon, BW 'toon, DW, main IDW) as the most important sets in terms of longevity, influence and number of stories. - SanityOrMadness 01:00, 9 April 2013 (EDT)
It is probably best to avoid using Marvel's Earth-91274 vs. Earth-120185 designations since their usage is different than how we would classify things. Earth-91274 includes the entire G.I. Joe comic including the latter Transformers Generation 2 crossover issues, so it is not really correct to say "Earth-91274, plus Marvel Generation 2 (G.I. Joe #138–142, Transformers: Generation 2 (Marvel) #0–12)" (since G.I. Joe #138–142 are already in Earth-91274). - Starfield 18:40, 11 April 2013 (EDT)
Good thinking. I'll make the changes accordingly. --Sabrblade 20:04, 11 April 2013 (EDT)
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