Talk:Mudflap (ROTF)

Okay, I apologize for starting to get a bit edit war about this. Some people consider the twins racist caricatures. Others disagree. I really don't think this wiki should be dismissive of either side of the argument. I think noting the controversy without comment is fine. --KilMichaelMcC 08:57, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

I agree. I'm not sure if I find the twins racist caricatures (caricatures for sure, racist not for sure), but I find the dismissive behaviour to the accusations disturbing. Geewunling 10:23, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

I dunno, I remember the exact same accusations with Jazz back in '07. Because he talked all ghetto, everyone thought he was black. Or blacker. Or making fun of black(er) people. That was because back in '84, Jazz was all up on Rock, and back then, rock was "rotting our brains". They just gave him ghetto as an update. It's like the accusations of racism in RE5. Just because a white dude (with a body like a melon on a fridge) was shooting a bunch of black villagers (with the occasional other white guy) who were trying to bloody disembowel him, everyone was all "Help us, Emperor Jesse Jackson!"

Face it. Every time something "non-white" pops up, someone will get offended. Remember that South Park episode when they were doing the Christmas thing, and everyone was offended by one, little thing, and the play ended up in them just hopping around to Phillip Glass? What would you rather have? "Get'r Dun!"?24.89.74.34 14:05, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

Sign your posts. Also, you seem not to have a very proper understanding of how racism works these days. It happens more subtle, in ways you can brush off as coincidence or that you can counter with various arguments. That is ignoring the trend beneath. For instance, I don't find RE5 rascist for the killing of infected people coinicidentally native to Africa, but I have a slight problem with the main roles given mostly to the non-black characters while the game is set in Africa. Only Sheva and her boss are black main characters, and Sheva seems to me as a compromise by being much lighter in colour and more shaped to Caucasian beauty standards.

Bay has the subtlety of a brick to the face, and I doubt he's capable of recognizing racism if it's not blatant (he's at least incapable of recognizing sexism). Not saying the twins are rascist stereotypes, but they very well could be, even if they aren't meant that way. Geewunling 04:13, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

Well if you'd looked at the article, Reno Wilson was told the characters were meant to be "wannabe gangsters", so he and Tom Kenny voiced them as such. He, a black man, is surprised so many people are offended.--Detour 04:19, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

Because blacks can't be rascist to blacks, or support rascist views from white people? That's a fallacy. I'd be surprised if most black people would find the twins offensive, but that doesn't mean an underlying wrong idea is not supported by carelessly accepting them. Geewunling 04:35, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

Sorry, Geewunling, I tend to grossly oversimplify. You not finding RE5 non-offensive is exactly what I was talking about: Whenever something is question over racial protrayals [sic], it gets divided between "it's bad" and "It's not bad". You never really see the "not bad" side on the news, right? It's usually ten minutes of 'bad" with about forty-five seconds of "not bad". Let me clarify about Jazz, too. People found him offensive not because he was "black", but because he was the only Autobot to die, whereas the others survived, but were admittadly badly hurt. But I concede, because you're a better writer than I am.24.89.74.34 14:05, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

I think people found Jazz offensive ONLY because of his ONE LINE "what's crackin' little bitches?" and instantly label him as "black", and THEN get offended that he later dies. I realy don't get how people can think that giant fictional robots from space can be rasist.(granted, skids and mudflap were overdoing it, but people would be less ofended if they were humans AND black)--Sunjumper 14:18, 4 July 2009 (EDT)

Twins article, + stereotyping again

1) Is there justification for an article at "Twins" or "The Twins" or "The twins", considering how much the phrase is explicitly used by the characters themselves and in numerous ancillary materials? I'm thinking it might be very short, maybe even no fiction section at all.

2) I'm more and more convinced that the twins are meant to be rural hicks trying to talk ghetto-speak while not having a clue about it. Is it worth noting this somewhere, since a lot of offended viewers seem to be completely missing this point, or is it too much of an opinion, or is it still OMG OFFENSIVE STEREOTYPE in some way that I'm totally missing? -- Repowers 11:24, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

I'm sure I read somewhere that Bay himself stated that they where supposed to be a parody of white kids trying to be black. I too am for that "The Twins" article. Dead Metal 11:31, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

I don't think the material is robust enough to support a multi-layered "supposed to be one group pretending to be another" interpretation. They could be supposed to be Haida Indians acting all ghetto, but with utterly no hint at all about the Haida while all we see and hear front and center is the ghetto. How is that any different from them just being ghetto? --Thylacine 2000 14:40, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

I get "inbred hick" from their faces. Their hideous, malformed, asymetrical, bug-eyed, buck-toothed faces. *shudder* -- Repowers 15:05, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

There is a twin article that is meant to document what it means to be a Transformer twin. - Starfield 11:43, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

That's fine for the generic term, but "the twins" seems to be bandied about a LOT in specific reference to these two, in a way that hasn't been done for any other pair of TFs. (also, I totally failed to find that article, despite suspecting that it existed. We needa "twins" redirect.) -- Repowers 12:34, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

Look at their goddamn vehicle modes. Can you see the Crips or Bloods ridin' dirty in those things? That's fucking white, man. It's practically translucent. --M Sipher 11:59, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

The same thing could be said about the Pontiac Solstice, though. --Detour 16:45, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

1. Mention that multiple viewers took exception to the precieved portrayal.
2. Find a cits for Bay or Orci intendign them to be wiggas.
3. Point out that in the novelization (and presumably the early script) Skids was intended to have a lisp and not be a banger-- which really helped the duo 'read' as a white boy wannabees. This seems to have drifted in successive revisions so they're both wigga wannabees (Skids is just bad at it,)-- which opened the opportunity for confusion.

Acknowledge the issue. Provide counter-statements. Show how the intention, the execution and the perception are 3 sides of the same coin and put the matter to rest. -Derik 16:42, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

• Bay talks about how the twins vague characterization was originally vague and evolved during script recordings.
• Orci + Kurtzman note that they were surprised how much Skids, specifically, changed from their script to the final film.
• Skids VA is white.

So blah blah blah... what I said above. They were supposed to be a contrasting pair, the voice actors were encouraged to ad-lib, and that... just got changed. The result is a bit unfortunate (to the point that the scriptwriters admit that it made them uncomfortable) but it wasn't part of a conscious decision at any point along the way... just dogpile revisions. -Derik 16:49, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

I think what the articles say right now about the controversy is pretty much fine, without much need for change, and certainly shouldn't be changed to any way lecture genuinely offended viewers about they're "missing the point." --KilMichaelMcC 17:03, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

And, I might add, I think a lot of those offended aren't "missing the point" that the Twins are supposed to "white" guys acting in a manner stereotypically associated with black people, thus the comparisons to blackface and minstrel shows. --KilMichaelMcC 17:11, 20 July 2009 (EDT)

Ice Cream Truck Scale

So there's a bit of a big gay revert war on about the relative size of the ice cream truck. I say we hold off on any explicit statements about the scale until the DVD drops, at which point we can actually use, you know, screencaps and references and shit. Unless, of course, someone knows exactly what model truck it's based on (looks like a 1930s U.S.-made pickup or delivery truck), and then we can conclusively say something. Personally, I think it's a non-issue and the truck is full-sized, because the idea of standing up to sell ice cream out of the back of a goddamned subcompact is ludicrous, but then again, there IS a process for this sort of thing. Hooper_X 13:19, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

Video link for you to prove (or disprove) the issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoIllegalCamVidsAllowed. It just looks small to me. Crow T. Robot 16:47, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

What does it MATTER what scale it is? We have a scale article for this sort of thing. Keep this irrelevant, non-noteable nonsense out of the toy section. --ItsWalky 16:51, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

This is all also ignoring that the Twins themselves are SMALL robots. They only look to be maybe 8 to 9 feet in robot mode. Bumblebee can (and does) pick each one up with one arm and sling them around off their feet with ease. Given the amount of mass that must spontaneously generate from nowhere in order for a fully-functional Topkick or Camaro to turn into hugeass robots like Ironhide and Bumblebee, the idea that two comparative midgets will cram themselves into a smallish van is far from the worst physics issue in the movie series. --M Sipher 18:14, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

I don't suppose this concept art by Ben Procter helps in any way, does it? -- SFH 18:44, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

And where exactly did the twins find and scan a 1930's delivery-turned ice cream van in the first place? 142.240.200.10 18:49, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

Maybe their previous Decepticon hunt was at a car museum. --abates 19:11, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

Considering that in Alliance, they arrived on Earth in a scrapyard, their beat up old ice cream truck alt mode makes vastly more sense than Sideswipe and Arcee's top of the line models. - Cattleprod 22:37, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

If the Titan series is any indication, they don't. - Starfield 23:21, 23 September 2009 (EDT)

So now that the DVD has "dropped"... what's the final decision? Crow T. Robot 15:06, 21 October 2009 (EDT)

Readin'

Hm. It occurs to me. It's only said, by them, "We ain't much for readin'". Not "we can't read". The existence of the "Suck My Popsicle" sticker would indicate SOME level of literacy, since that clearly wouldn't be on the original vehicle. Also... why would the cyberglyphs or whatever engraved on the twins be counter to their reading ability in any way? Does everyone who gets a Japanese/Chinese character tattoo read those languages? --M Sipher 12:49, 24 September 2009 (EDT)

Japanese EZ version error?

Just noticed the pic of the 'Lawson exclusive' EZ figure.

Apparently the version of EZ Mudflap released in the 2-pack with Bumblebee was actually the standard US version, and the Takara-Tomy picture was incorrect. Unless anyone has an official source (in-hand pictures, on-line sales listings etc) that says the Japanese version of the Legends figure is any different from the US colours, I'd recommend deleting this photo. 213.123.203.109 09:01, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Okay, so now we have proof that the US and Japanese versions of these toys are identical. Proof (including relevant links to photos posted on the TFW2005 toys forum) can be found on the discussion page of The Fallen. I'm unable to edit that page (as a featured article, it's locked for editing)), but I CAN edit this page to reflect the actual facts. Anyone reverting should have a very good reason not to.91.107.52.207 17:26, 22 December 2009 (EST)

Grappel Grip Mudflap

Given that Solar Storm Grappel is spelled "Grappel" and the website still says "Grappel Grip Mudflap", I'm thinking that the American packaging that has the "typo" (i.e. someone thought "Grappel" was an error and accidentally fixed it). - Starfield 21:14, 3 October 2010 (EDT)

I think "Grappel" is spelled that way for trademark purposes since Grapple's reissue was called "Autobot Grapple". An intentional misspelling a la Demolishor or Scattorshot. --NCZ 21:30, 3 October 2010 (EDT)