Talk:Optimus Prime (Universe)

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Image

How is the image representative of the Spy Changer guy? Especially considering, y'know, it's a mode the toy doesn't have. —Interrobang 21:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It's the yellow Optimus Prime. Who got a profile in the 3H TFMag describing things that happened to him which, demonstrably didn't happen to the RiD Prime who showed up in the TFU and Cybertron comics.

Assuming that 3H profile of the yellow not-from-TFU-comics TFU RiD Optimus Prime represents the same character as the yellow not-the-same-guy-from-the-TFU-comics TFU RiD Optimus Prime from the script reading is pretty safe, right? The smaller robot pic is just non-ideal because his only fictional appearance was in super robot mode.

(The Sams Club toy should probably be moved to this article too, since the TFU Prime's was established as a separate character.)-Derik 21:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not "yellow Optimus Prime." This is specifically the Spychanger yellow Optimus Prime who is specifically from a universe where all Transformers are Spychanger-sized. He is not RiD Optimus Prime. Please understand this. --ItsWalky 22:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

It's possible that there are as many as four different RID Prime-based characters in the small amount of TFU fiction we actually got. There is AN Omega Prime already in the Cauldron when Primal busts in to do some harrowing. Another Omega Prime, potentially a different one, is summoned when Depthcharge refuses to do the job Primal had him resurrected for. We never see this Omega Prime do anything, but I'm inclined to believe it's the one later seen in the Club comics. These three Omega Primes are ALL colored as the original toys, unfortunately, but it sounds from the 3H profile as though the original prison-break Omega Prime should probably have been colored with the appropriate yellow parts, while the Oracle-summoned Omega Prime should be in the "Cybertron" colors. Then, of course, there's the Spy Changer, who shows up in the script reading in non-Cauldron-related circumstances and is tiny. -LV 22:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Is he actually tiny in-universe? (There were only two TFU RiD Oppy toys and they're both yellow. I'm inclined to believe they're the same character unless there's a significant reason to believe otherwise.) -22:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The script explicitly calls him "Optimus Prime (Micro)". And then RID Prowl says he "barely comes up to [Prowl's] power pod". Also, he and Prowl (Micro) talk about how weird it is that the RID guys keep shouting their attack names. -LV 22:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

And he's drawn tiny. --ItsWalky 22:24, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh. Well in that case ignore me.

So, you have the script eh? I don't suppose there could be scans of that floating around, could there? *hints unsubtly * -Derik 23:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Creating even more alternate universes for the sake of creating more alternate universes just seems ridiculously and unnecessary complicated and confusing. I'll continue to have Spychanger Optimus Prime the same being as the larger toy just on a different scale. 84.71.129.159 09:43, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

We're not the ones creating more alternate universes. But if there's a new alternate universe, we're going to document it. --ItsWalky 11:11, 20 June 2009 (EDT)

Separation or merge

Is the fact that this RID Optimus Prime is female sufficient to warrant her own individual page? If so, then we should also make an individual page for the female Scourge. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 10:43, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

I think we should take this as similar to the Armada Beast Wars; Universe Optimus Prime has actually done things in fiction, whereas AVP Scourge... hasn't. I think Scourge will be fine with a note on the page saying "In this micro-continuity, Scourge was female", even if we keep Universe Optimus separate. Riptide (talk) 10:55, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

This Optimus Prime had turned up in some previous fiction (the play at OTFCC) and Scourge is just a line on AVP, so you're right that we technically should but I think we should do what we did with the Aurex Beast Wars: keep everything on the BW pages because they're not quite different enough. -- Charles RB 16:06, 18 August 2015 (GMT)

Several characters are alternately male or female depending on continuity. They aren't split based on that. Saix (talk) 11:36, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

Hrm. I guess. This feels different to me, though; probably because all other gender-switch characters are "same events, different gender", rather than "same general universe, different events, different gender". I'd be happier keeping this on its own page, but I can see the argument for merging, so... I guess? --Riptide (talk) 11:45, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

Ultimately, it boils down to "is this a version of RID Optimus Prime?" And considering how we now don't consider differing species enough to split pages... Saix (talk) 12:10, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

This might be related. We don't keep separate pages for all the Animated characters who were originally male before being given proper characterizations as females, which were explained as the result of time travelers altering history. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 12:12, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

I missed that, which Animated characters are those? They're really listed as both genders on their pages? -- Charles RB 18:07, 18 August 2015 (GMT)

Sunstreaker, for one. Ugh. I guess I see your point. I suppose we should merge, even if we'll lose that excellent opening section. --Riptide (talk) 13:17, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

(Though if we do merge, would having the image caption as some variant of "Wait a minute... there's something bothering me about this place. I know! This lesbian bar doesn't have a fire exit! Enjoy your death trap, ladies." be workable?) --Riptide (talk) 13:18, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

If Sunstreaker's it and never had any fiction, is that really a precedent? (If we do merge though, good call for saving th intro, Riptide!) --Charles RB (talk) 18:21, 18 August 2015 (GMT)

In my opinion, gender isn't a big enough factor to keep the pages separated. Alternate universe versions of characters that are a different gender is nothing new, even though beforehand it was mostly due to differences Japanese/American marketing decisions. If Airazor got some new fiction exclusive to Japan, and was treated as a male character in it, I think it's safe to say we'd list it on her main page. Heck, doesn't every universe where Transformers officially have no gender listed on the same page as incarnations from universes where they do have genders count towards this argument? --Ascendron (talk) 13:50, 18 August 2015 (EDT)

Good point, I'd forgotten about gender in dubs. Bums, merger seems her destiny. --Charles RB (talk) 19:40, 18 August 2015 (GMT)

"Literally"

If it's wordplay, it still doesn't meet the definition of "literally". --Khajidha (talk) 11:36, 22 November 2021 (EST)

司令官 means "commander". Kanji are meaning-based characters and not phonological-based, so fiction can change the pronunciation for whatever reason. Saix (talk) 11:48, 22 November 2021 (EST)

That was kind of my bad due to unclear phrasing in the note. Fixed now, hopefully. -AzimuthAcolyte (talk) 12:30, 22 November 2021 (EST)

Still not working. The "lit." abbreviation and the "do not correlate to the literal text" contradict each other. Is what this is supposed to be saying that "<string of Japanese symbols> would normally be pronounced "commander", but is here pronounced "Convoy" due to wordplay"? --Khajidha (talk) 13:12, 22 November 2021 (EST)

I'm not sure why you find it so hard to understand. The writing contains the semantic meaning, not the speaking. S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent 47 (talk) 13:28, 22 November 2021 (EST)

Okay, to try again, as I understand it "Yellow Splendid Convoy" is the part that does not correspond to the text. The literal text is "華麗なる = Splendid," "司令官 = Commander," "イエロー = Yellow," thus "lit. Splendid Commander Yellow." The superscript thingies ([[wikipedia:{{#if:|:}}furigana|{{#if:||furigana}}]]) assign the pronunciation "司令官 (Commander) = コンボイ (Convoy)" which is why we use "Yellow Splendid Convoy" in the rest of the article. This is explained in detail a couple times in the translator's notes on the Primus Vanguard main article that I linked to in the footnote. Translators feel free to correct me.

If I understood the way our lead translator on this stuff explained it correctly it's basically a sleight of hand to give these characters highfalutin "Supreme Commander" style titles on their debuts and then refer to them with normal Convoy or Prime names the rest of the time. -AzimuthAcolyte (talk) 13:40, 22 November 2021 (EST)

Well, when somebody tells me that something both literally means something and does not literally mean that same thing at the same time, I find that confusing. --Khajidha (talk) 14:57, 22 November 2021 (EST)

Dude, the "literally" only applies to what's in the parentheses. We first give her translated name in the text, then in the parentheses we give her name as originally written in Japanese, the Romanization of that Japanese-written name, and then it's literal English definition. The note is just there to explain why the name's English translation and its literal English definition are not identical. --Sabrblade (talk) 18:15, 22 November 2021 (EST)

Split Universe Spychanger and Yellow

Why does Red Sentinel have a separate page, but Yellow is lumped in with the Spychanger? They don't use the same toy and aren't from the same universal stream, there's no reason to consider them the same. It's like putting all the Aligned guys' information on their G1 counterpart pages because War For Cybertron doubles as Uniend and Primax. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kurisu (talk • contribs){{#if:08:07, 28 March 2023| 08:07, 28 March 2023|}}.

Well first of all in-universe multiversal cartography from boutique collector fiction doesn't really dictate how we organize the wiki, that's rather the tail wagging the dog. Especially given the Transtech system in particular was devised as a parody.

Our guiding principle is the end-user experience and leaving Yellow Splendid Convoy's western incarnation in the bowels of Fire Convoy's article where she was previously makes the character evolution rather hard to follow.

Anecdotally this has also proven the most popular article out of all the Primus Vanguard business by a fairly wide margin in my experience, so it'd be a shame to carve it up over a technicality.

Also please sign your posts. --AzimuthAcolyte (talk) 13:07, 28 March 2023 (EDT)

I'm not sure why the out-of-universe genesis of an in-universe system matters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but... isn't "leaving Yellow Splendid Convoy's western incarnation in the bowels of Fire Convoy's article" exactly how the page is now? I don't follow what you're trying to say. Either way, Yellow Splendid Convoy and Universe Spychanger Optimus Prime aren't the same character. Go Prime gets a pass because he has the same name, characterization, and abilities; by all accounts he's either the exact same guy or an alternate incarnation. If color, gender, and general appearance are all it takes to merge pages rather than the actual in-universe system (that's already based off the wiki classifications to begin with), then I guess Windblade and Twitch are the same character now? Kurisu (talk) 13:20, 28 March 2023 (EDT)

I don't agree that they should be together, but hyperbolic arguments aren't helpful. They're yellow female redecoes of Fire Convoy. Some people think that concept is worth keeping together.

My take is that Yellow should have her own page and the Spychanger merged back to RID Optimus Prime. Saix (talk) 13:29, 28 March 2023 (EDT)

Seconded. Iacon0 (talk) 13:34, 28 March 2023 (EDT)

For me personally, this page functions ideally in its current state: it collates the fictional appearances of that one weird yellow Optimus Prime from Universe, which isn't portrayed as an upgrade (or similar) for Optimus Prime, but rather just as its own thing. Optimus Prime (Universe) is an obvious article from that perspective. But I am sympathetic to the idea that Universe Optimus Prime should just be on the Robots in Disguise incarnation's page, and indeed we currently recognise that by having the yellow toys on both pages, because from a toy perspective, this is just a fun variant of Robots in Disguise Optimus Prime. It's not really some new, separate thing. It feels like, if you overlook the variance in gender, the yellow Optimus Prime is just another multiversal incarnation of Robots in Disguise Optimus Prime. That said, I think all of the Primus Vanguard characters (aside from Go Prime and Purple Wicked Convoy who are both special cases) are taking these random colorways and spinning them off into new characters. "Red Sentinel Prime" isn't just Sentinel Prime, it's specifically that translucent variant, so it's the same situation as the rest: each toy doubles as both a special form for the character, and a different character entirely. Being technical about it, you could move the Universe stuff onto the Robots in Disguise page and rename this one Yellow Splendid Convoy, but that still seems less user-friendly to me. —The Wadapan (talk) 16:45, 28 March 2023 (EDT)

I don't see why the female Universe Spychanger can't continue to stay on her own page suited to the primary page of her male counterpart, while Yellow gets her own separate page entirely. After all, there is even a point in the Spychanger's life when she is both red instead of yellow and not yet a Spychanger, making the only difference from her male counterpart at that point in her life the fact that she's a she instead of a he, whereas Yellow is, by all appearances, always female and yellow-colored but never a Spychanger. I mean, if we're giving Purple his own page separate from SG Optimus, and now Red finally has his own article separate from Sentinel. --Sabrblade (talk) 17:29, 28 March 2023 (EDT)

I think whatever ends up happening, we can't understate the likelihood that Sakamoto made a female, yellow "Optimus Prime" almost certainly because there was a pre-existing female, yellow Optimus Prime. There is absolutely a conceptual lineage there. Spychanger Optimus to Yellow Splendid is a straight line from A to B. –TheLastGherkin (talk) 05:24, 29 March 2023 (EDT)